Thai Women - Opinions & Advice [Archive] - Page 2

Fon Tok

04-29-08, 08:16

...My desire to see the end of or at least reduction in prostitution in Thailand, as has happened in Korea is a recognition of the need to see Thailand develop properly as a nation, particularly in social equality, which would give these girls the education, they so desperately need and as a result give them other more culturally acceptable options to make a decent living and have decent lives. There is much that needs to be done in this regard: better schools and more industry and technology creating jobs in Isaan, with much better salaries...I agree with this statement because I have grown to love and care about many of my Thai friends and their children, and I am well aware that the de facto caste system limits what they can realistically achieve in their lives.

My question for for OTH is: how can educational and employment opportunities can be increased for those that most need them (i.e., poor folks from Isaan), without seriously upsetting the status quo?

From what I've recently read it sounds like it is going the other direction and there is push to keep more folks "back on the farm" and in sweatshop factories. Of course, with this trend, the daughters of Isaan will continue to sell their lithe, young bodies to meet both Thai and non-Thai demand.

Bumholes1

04-29-08, 10:22

Run Mann

04-29-08, 10:32

My former "middle-class educated Thai Girlfriend" was interesting, smart, well read, and made her way through two degrees in college on loans, money from her parents (her father was a retired Army officer) and hard work, and never worked in a beer bar, or topless/gogo bar. Was she sexually satisfying to me? Oh my God, yes. She was a sexual dynamo, an orgasm machine, who was just as horny as I was, and would take care of me even when she wasn't up for it, and I was. I never messed around on her, even though one of her hottie friends was looking for some wood, and approached ME.

Sounds like a dream girl, why did you let a catch like her get away?

Old Thai Hand

04-29-08, 10:38

Ok, I understand that young, beautiful, pure, sweet, unused, undamaged girls of premium quality can be found offering meaningful relationships far more intellectually and sexually fulfilling than those possible with the P4P hotties. It’s true! Having lived in Thailand only 6 months now, I’ve already had a few such golden opportunities for domestic bliss.

Suppose, like you, I decide to acquire one. Then what? I’m 62. She’s barely in her 20’s. Her mom and pop are younger than me – maybe 10 or even 20 years younger. Her adult life is just starting. I’m retired. She wants to start a family soon; have babies. Should I father her little babies? My daughter is old enough to be her mother. She thrives in her interactions with friends and family. I like to live alone. She likes to party, dance, and socialize. Again, I like to be alone. I want to relax and stay home. She wants one man for love, family and financial support. I want to fuck and fondle every pretty young girl I see. The relationship is like a lovely flower, and just like a pretty young flower, all too soon the bloom is off the rose. It’s just not fair for either side.

My fantasy has always been to someday enjoy a sex life much like the biblical King Solomon, an Arab Sultan, or an Egyptian Pharaoh. These guys had harems full of nubile young puppies, all trained to provide sexual services fit for a king. They chose their bedtime companions the same as they plucked the very best fruit from the trees. They had favorites as well as new lovelies available 24/7 -- an endless erotic variety at their beck and call.

I am living that fantasy now in Pattaya Thailand. And I have it much better than all the historical kings and other potentates because I can have as much feminine services and company as I desire without the necessity to support them and their families beyond the $15-$50 they demand for each session. Who cares about their intelligence or life interests? Love abounds, but not domestic love. (Something has to be sacrificed for this fantasy to succeed) It’s a win-win situation. It’s fair.

So, if you want family and babies and intellectual stimulation along with occasional sexual gratification, by all means seek and find a good little girlfriend. You will be dead by the time the kids reach puberty, but so what? If you want to lead a happy, carefree, irresponsible life of lust and debauchery in your golden years, stick with P4P. This wonderful forum tells you where to find ‘em.

Regards,
Daddy

I wasn’t talking about getting married and having babies! I’m certainly not going to do that…at least the baby part. If you read my post, I wasn't suggesting you even get a GF. Just, move beyond P4P. It's the bottom of the barrel mate. Learn to differentiate. There's so much better out there.

I do understand how you’re feeling. But, I also think you haven’t been here long enough to know one way or the other. The novelty hasn’t worn off yet. It’s all still very exciting to have a ready and seemingly endless supply of apparently cute, sweet young things at your disposal. Let me guess. You have a number of them who call you and want to come over at anytime of the day or night. You don't even need to go out looking anymore, if you don't want. You have a little stable of girls who all apparently adore you and give you a GFE, if you want it. It all sounds so perfect.

mmmmmmmmmm....Been there…Done that…

It took me about a year before I started questioning the whole P4P scene and another year and a bit before I seriously started to extricate myself from it. Almost from the beginning, I had access to non-P4P girls, especially students. But, I still opted for P4P a lot of the time because it was just simpler and less messy. But, around the time I hit the 500th or so girl, I asked myself, “OK now what? What’s the point?” As the Thais say, “same, same.” A lot of my friends were always telling me, “get yourself a bird!”. So, I did and was with her for 4 years. She was a really great girl. But, I blew it by dumping her for a not so great girl (one of my ex-students). Of course, during the time I was together with my GF of 4 years, I wasn’t 100% loyal. But, they were all quick dalliances and she was who I always went home to. The other thing that turned me off P4P was that my taste had evolved over the course of the first couple of years I was here and I simply didn’t find the P4P girls very good looking. Now, I find most of them downright ugly. So, when I ended up being on my own again, I certainly didn’t return to P4P, but looked elsewhere. I had tasted better quality Thai flesh and wasn’t about to settle for the cheap meat that is P4P.

Everyone is of course different. But, it’s been my experience that almost every expat moves beyond P4P. However, being in LaLaLand, that likely won’t happen to you. Pattaya isn’t a normal place - it’s certainly not Thailand. So, what normally happens to expats in Thailand, likely wouldn’t happen to expats there. For one thing, you can get away with being in limbo in Pattaya; a perpetual sex tourist in a sex tourist hole. You can’t really do that elsewhere, without being called on it. Your mates would think there was something wrong with you, not being able to do any better than to pull nothing but hookers. But, in tawdry Patts, that’s the norm and one simply blends in by having an endless trail of Hos lined up outside the door. Therefore it’s a perfect place to retire for an aging sultan wanting his fantasy harem.

But, I still think one day, you might just get really bored with it all.

Run Mann

04-29-08, 11:49

Run Mann

I agree with you about these sites. I met about 65 in person from both AsianEuro and ThaiLovelinks. Of those, only two turned out to be bargirls and I met both of them within the last year or so.

I'm curious OTH how you determined that those other 63 girls had no connection to the night life; presumably you not did have extended liaisons with all of them. It always puzzled me how there are so many posters here who make proud and bold declarative statement like "my Thai GF/wife has never set foot anywhere near the night life or was never involved in it." How do they know that to be a fact, because she said so? These same Posters will then make statement like “Thais (girls) are the biggest liars, they all tell lies to save face”. Well, if that is true, seems to me those are incredulous statements. This isn’t a criticism of you or your situation specifically (although you are involved) but just my general overall observation about many posters making what I consider to be insincere statements. I am intrigued as to how they factually support these statements.

I submit that no one knows the truth but the girls. Echoing those statements may give men a sense of increased self-esteem on this board but in a country where lying seems to be ingrained in the culture and prostitution is widely available, many of those type statements/posters lack creditability in this area. Now you can say that you can tell the difference because you have experience or wisdom or not all the girls are liars and normal girls are not the same as P4P, but come on, deep down who really believes this stuff?

In a country where it’s not uncommon for a girl to be multi-task as a Banker and a nocturnal paid Companion how does anyone know her true activities? There are Uni girls working part time at Natarees and as Escorts for various agencies, so how are they classified, Hookers, normal, half normal? If you met them today or later in life, would they open up and tell you about their extra activities? A better statement would be “as far as I know, my gf has never been near the night-life”. This is a land of plenty (of hookers) and we meet on a sex board where no one met his wife or GF via the P4P route. The odds of that happening are in the trillions, it can’t happen. A freshman college student taking statistics can tell us that. I would venture to say that at least some of the girls we think are normal girls are much closer or in some way connected to the night scene than their mates may know. However many of these posters making these statements have to already know the truth. The line between P4P and normal girls is not as defined as some may think. Not bashing anyone, just my not so humbly view point.

Daddy07

04-29-08, 12:17

I wasn’t talking about getting married and having babies! I’m certainly not going to do that…at least the baby part...

Hummmm... I assume you have told her that and she's happy with it. Can't imagine though that a beautiful young woman from a fine family would not want to start her own family, which, of course, means having babies. Or, are you counting on the relationship to end amicably when the talk inevitably turns to family and babies? You can always find a new one, right? Except, IMHO, that kind of arrangement is not fair to either of you. Someone will probably be hurt.

Old Thai Hand

04-29-08, 15:56

Hummmm... I assume you have told her that and she's happy with it. Can't imagine though that a beautiful young woman from a fine family would not want to start her own family, which, of course, means having babies. Or, are you counting on the relationship to end amicably when the talk inevitably turns to family and babies? You can always find a new one, right? Except, IMHO, that kind of arrangement is not fair to either of you. Someone will probably be hurt.

You're a bit of an old softie, aren't you? Nice.

FYI. I can't have kids and she doesn't want them. She's told me that from day 1. That could change, of course as she gets older. But, she knows my situation and doesn't have any problem with it. We have a really great relationship. It surprises me, given the difference in age. But, she's truly the best girl I've ever known, not to mention quite cute and a real head-turner.

I submit that no one knows the truth but the girls.

Run Mann

Well, I don't know whether any of the other women from TLL had ever been involved in P4P. You're right. It's hard to know these things for sure. But, most of them did have reasonably good jobs and most just weren't like any P4P girls I ever met. Despite your assertions, I have been here a long time, I know Thais extremely well and I am quite confident in my ability to assess TGs.

I do think your post grossly over-exagerates. Sure there are freelancers who are secretaries, shopgirls and even students. But, I honestly don't think the numbers are as large as people want to believe. Large numbers of uni girls turning tricks is an urban myth. A lot of the so-called students working at MPs are spurious at best and if students at all, are probably part-time and always come from the same few bottom-tier unis known for this (If you want the names of the these unis, I can easily supply them). In fact, I've met a number of fake students, even decked out in uniforms (easy enough to come by), who when I questioned them couldn't even give simple credible info. It's no secret that there's big money to be made, if you sell yourself as a student trying to make a little on the side. But, in many cases, these girls aren't legit. This country is not awash in prostitutes as your post would suggest. It may seem that way, if all you do is travel along well-worn paths. The other fact is that probably 90% of the estimated 2 million prostitutes in this country, even those in the Thai-oriented industry are from Isaan and are poor. Most aren't likely to have ever remotely been uni students, shopgirls, secretaries or anything else.

Yes Thais in general lie. But, if you live here long enough and are around them all the time, you do get to know how to read them. Quite honestly, a lot of posters on here, even those living here don't really have in-depth interaction with Thais, because they are ghetto-ized, and so you might have a point about some not really knowing for sure about their GF's past because they just can't read the culture. Add to that, that many end up with poor village girls and chances increase that, even if they didn't meet in a bar, that she may have had a brush with P4P at some time in her life. But, prostitution is born out of a need for money. Girls don't do it for fun. So, it's reasonable to assume that if a girl has money, already, either from her job or her family, she's not likely to have ever been anywhere near P4P. Also, I'm sorry. But, I do believe you can read the character of the girl and if you know her background and her family, you can be confident that she is what she says she is, especially if you have been here a long time and have in-depth knowledge of the people and the culture.

You live in Korea, not here. So, your POV is based on assumptions, not first-hand experience, or hard facts. It's an interesting post, but in many ways, it's a flawed one.

Arizonan

04-29-08, 22:24

Sounds like a dream girl, why did you let a catch like her get away?It's a long story, probably best told and not written out. Bottom line, she just wouldn't leave Thailand, because of her family. The visa thing wore us both out. I could go on, but that's the gist of it.

Run Mann

04-29-08, 22:30

Run Mann

Well, I don't know whether any of the other women from TLL had ever been involved in P4P. You're right.

I asked questions and used some of the same repeated conversation/logic from this board. Also you don't know where I live; we don't all care to share our personal lives on this board. Your contention that if you don't live here then “your comments are based on assumptions" is flawed, funny you use this logic repeatedly on posters who don't share your views. Using that logic only people who live in Thailand can be provide data or speak about Thailand, its just not true. There are many samples one can use to support a position other that just living in the locale. However, many points in your post is refreshingly honestly and your answer does confirm what I was asking though, no one ever knows.

Terry Terrier

04-30-08, 00:32

When you learn enough of the lingo (meaning Isaan, not Thai) to understand what they gossip about with each other, it's pretty clear how limited they are in their thought processes and how screwed up they are. I never used to let on that I could understand them, always pretending to be fresh off the plane. Even when they knew me, it never occurred to them that a Farang could understand their Isaan "code". Listening to their mind-numbing, endless twaddle was what initially turned me off the whole bar scene.

Didn't you inform us last year that you'd recently made the effort to learn Isaan Lao?

Old Thai Hand

04-30-08, 03:02

I asked questions and used some of the same repeated conversation/logic from this board. Also you don't know where I live; we don't all care to share our personal lives on this board. Your contention that if you don't live here then “your comments are based on assumptions" is flawed, funny you use this logic repeatedly on posters who don't share your views. Using that logic only people who live in Thailand can be provide data or speak about Thailand, its just not true. There are many samples one can use to support a position other that just living in the locale. However, many points in your post is refreshingly honestly and your answer does confirm what I was asking though, no one ever knows.

Sorry, I thought you mentioned once in a post that you lived in Korea. My appologies. Well, anyway, we both make good points and it would be pretty boring on here if we totally agreed about everything.
I read your post yesterday, while sitting in a classroom with 35 20y.o. Thai girls and was looking at them thinking, "mmmmmmmmmmm...I wonder how many are hookers on the side?" :D Made me think, at least. HAHAHAHAHA

It continues to be an interesting discussion.

cheers

Old Thai Hand

04-30-08, 03:06

Didn't you inform us last year that you'd recently made the effort to learn Isaan Lao?

I have understood a lot of Isaan for a long time. But, over the last 2 years, I've made more of an effort to learn to speak it. My comprehension is still far better than my speaking. But, it's an easier language to learn than Thai.

Run Mann

04-30-08, 04:49

Sorry, I thought you mentioned once in a post that you lived in Korea. My appologies. Well, anyway, we both make good points and it would be pretty boring on here if we totally agreed about everything.
I read your post yesterday, while sitting in a classroom with 35 20y.o. Thai girls and was looking at them thinking, "mmmmmmmmmmm...I wonder how many are hookers on the side?" :D Made me think, at least. HAHAHAHAHA

It continues to be an interesting discussion.

cheers

I agree and you're right, I did mentioned that some time ago when I had a steady job but as a life long drifter, my home is now exclusively on the road. You did mention in that last post that you met a number of fake students decked out in uniforms. I get that selling yourself as a Uni girl is highly attractive option but how are the girls doing it while in uniform? Are you saying they are purposely dressing as a Uni girl in public in hopes of a score?

Also, a Uni girl working on the side to help with her expenses in all likelihood would not consider herself to be a hooker for various reasons, at least not in the denotative sense of the word. I personally know one girl in this category and I am grateful that she does not. Oh! Cheers to you too.

Opebo

04-30-08, 16:59

Maybe it's you who's boring, not the girls, and maybe]
Your phrase about "P4P options"...being "taken from us" reveals so much about you. Who the hell do you think you are and why do you think you have some right to P4P here?

I am a human being, and P4P is a basic human right of both john and prostitute. For the State to interfere in such absolutely person matters is a clear violation of our rights.

Old Thai Hand

05-01-08, 02:38

Terry Terrier

05-02-08, 00:21

I am a human being, and P4P is a basic human right of both john and prostitute. For the State to interfere in such absolutely person matters is a clear violation of our rights.

You're a funny guy, is what you are. Is that all you can come up with? I can't believe that you mean this silly statement to be taken seriously. But, I'll respond as if that's your intention.

No, Mr. O it's not your right, especially here. You are a guest. You have no rights or say in anything in LOS. As a Farang, your position here is so tenuous, you could be tossed out on your ass, without a reason. So, if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.

Opebo's statement, in itself, is not the slightest bit silly: It's completely correct. And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the positive action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go (something that Opebo, rather selfishly IMO, sees as a negative). But you and I both know that won't happen any time soon in that fucked-up country.

What point you are trying to make about the Thai Authorities being able to do what they want? Of course they can, the same as any country's Authorities. Are you issuing threats on ISG again? But what they won't do is change the (welcome) broad-opinioned discussions on ISG. And most of us ;) on here are far more civilised with Thai prostitutes than are the locals and others ;).

Tiger 888

05-02-08, 00:46

Opebo's statement, in itself, is not the slightest bit silly: It's completely correct. And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the positive action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go (something that Opebo, rather selfishly IMO, sees as a negative). But you and I both know that won't happen any time soon in that fucked-up country.

What point you are trying to make about the Thai Authorities being able to do what they want? Of course they can, the same as any country's Authorities. Are you issuing threats on ISG again? But what they won't do is change the (welcome) broad-opinioned discussions on ISG. And most of us ;) on here are far more civilised with Thai prostitutes than are the locals and others ;).Only giving the girl a certain basic income in a regular job makes prostitution her real choice.

Old Thai Hand

05-02-08, 02:47

Opebo's statement, in itself, is not the slightest bit silly: It's completely correct.

You can't be serious. Nobody has the 'right' to a prostitute. She has the right to make money any way she can, in order to survive. But, Opebo's belief in his entitlement is simply insulting to these women. The guy's a parasite and you know it.

Are you issuing threats on ISG again?

What threat? I'm just stating a fact. I'm just as vulnerable as the next Farang in being tossed out of LOS for no reason. Anti-Farang sentiments are on the rise again as new edicts and rumours of new edicts kick in. An example of this is: at a time when there's a critical shortage of teachers in this country, especially English teachers, the Ministry of Education has just made it mandatory that all Farang teachers take a Thai Culture course for which they will be charged 7000 baht. There are other elements to this, including an age ceiling of 49. While on the surface, it may seem perfectly reasonable to require teachers to do this, the move, particularly the 7000 baht fee is designed to discourage Farang from teaching here. BTW it doesn't impact on me as I teach university and it's just for elementary and high school teachers. Still, it has sinister implications, and I understand that the new rule is forcing a lot of schools to hire Farang illegally which is only dangerous for the Farang - they could end up in jail, which has happened to a number of illegal teachers already.

More relevant to this thread is the news article to which Run Mann linked about the impact of Farang on Thai culture through mixed marriages, which continues to be a hot topic here. There's talk of putting limitations on Thai-Farang marriages and one way they might do this is further restrictions on visas.

Essentially, it's becoming more and more apparent that they just want Farang to come here for a holiday, spend their money and leave.

Redfield10

05-02-08, 04:50

You can't be serious. Nobody has the 'right' to a prostitute. She has the right to make money any way she can, in order to survive. But, Opebo's belief in his entitlement is simply insulting to these women. The guy's a parasite and you know it.

What threat? I'm just stating a fact. I'm just as vulnerable as the next Farang in being tossed out of LOS for no reason. Anti-Farang sentiments are on the rise again as new edicts and rumours of new edicts kick in. An example of this is: at a time when there's a critical shortage of teachers in this country, especially English teachers, the Ministry of Education has just made it mandatory that all Farang teachers take a Thai Culture course for which they will be charged 7000 baht. There are other elements to this, including an age ceiling of 49. While on the surface, it may seem perfectly reasonable to require teachers to do this, the move, particularly the 7000 baht fee is designed to discourage Farang from teaching here. BTW it doesn't impact on me as I teach university and it's just for elementary and high school teachers. Still, it has sinister implications, and I understand that the new rule is forcing a lot of schools to hire Farang illegally which is only dangerous for the Farang - they could end up in jail, which has happened to a number of illegal teachers already.

More relevant to this thread is the news article to which Run Mann linked about the impact of Farang on Thai culture through mixed marriages, which continues to be a hot topic here. There's talk of putting limitations on Thai-Farang marriages and one way they might do this is further restrictions on visas.

Essentially, it's becoming more and more apparent that they just want Farang to come here for a holiday, spend their money and leave.So, I can't "retire" and then teach in Thailans if I'm over 49?

Bumholes1

05-02-08, 06:18

You can't be serious. Nobody has the 'right' to a prostitute. She has the right to make money any way she can, in order to survive. But, Opebo's belief in his entitlement is simply insulting to these women. The guy's a parasite and you know it.

Surely if a product or service is for sale, whether it be a new car, holiday or prostitute, then everyone has a "right" to buy it, provided they can stump the asking price. It doesn't matter who it is. Opebo, OTH or even Thaksin himself!

I've never met Opebo, but from his posts, it would appear he always pays the girl her dues, regardless of the nature of her services. Why therefore do you brand him a parasite?

Rubber Nursey

05-02-08, 07:19

And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the positive action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go (something that Opebo, rather selfishly IMO, sees as a negative)

Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.

For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.

Old Thai Hand

05-02-08, 09:08

So, I can't "retire" and then teach in Thailans if I'm over 49?

Probably not, unless you have highly desirable skills, a post-grad degree and can get a job teaching university (no age limits at unis): not an easy thing to do especially outside of Bangkok.

Old Thai Hand

05-02-08, 14:20

Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.

For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.

By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Thailand. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country.

What I am suggesting, is proper job creation, decent hours and wages and skills training. There are actually plans to build an IT industry in Khon Kaen and attempt to turn it in a regional IT hub. It may be wishful thinking. But, if it happens it could actually benefit the region greatly and provide alternatives for the people there.

BTW, there are no 'feminazis', nor is there a 'religious right' here. You must be lost in the west somewhere. There's nothing worse than a preachy hooker from a developed country, who clearly knows fuck all about Asia and the life of hookers here. For every supposed stunner commanding 5,000 baht a pop there are literally hundreds getting 100 baht or less in truck-stop brothels all over the country, not to mention that there are still girls forced into prostitution, chained to beds in the back alleys of Chinatown and Little India in Bangkok and also in Chiang Mai. Depressing, but true. How I know this is because a colleague of mine did a 2 year, in-depth research project on prostitution in Thailand and he's told me that there are women, who are basically indentured slaves earning as little as 75 baht per customer. I was pretty shocked that this is still happening here.

If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice. But, given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture, and hoping that there might be some positive changes that give the girls real alternatives seems to me to be an enlightened way of thinking.

Anyway, it's probably an incredibly stupid position to take on a web site dedicated to perpetuating prostitution. So, this is the last time I will be so 'preachy' myself on this topic.

M P Lurker

05-02-08, 16:08

Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.

For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.

I believe that clearly the problem is not the prostitution but peoples attitudes to it. Everybody has to work to make money and we all take the most well paid job we get. If I could fuck for big money (the opposite sex of course), I have little doubt that I would.

Is it because most guys cannot market their sexual performance that they must look down on those who can?

It is believed that girls intellegence may actually a hindrence to being good in bed. Therefore many average or lower intellegence girls have their good looks and bedroom skills as their best most marketable assets.
Even highly intellegent women may find that sex pays better or some of them just like sex and getting men off.
I can't help thinking of a german girl i once met who had great looks, a great body, seemed smart, but loved sex with both men and women and so liked to work P4P and was orgasmic and made a lot of money from it. She had a husband as well.

I don't believe that sex work should be considered degrading. Sex is natural, sex is good. It is not evil to sell something good that is marketable purely due to the imbalance in supply and demand. Labelling it evil or illegal is a silly way of jacking up the price.

Many of us men find that paying a hooker for sex is actually cheaper than having a wife or girlfriend and get better sex as well. My ex-wife and ex-girlfriends were mostly very ordinary in bed. The ex GF who was really good in bed was a psycho case that was impossible to live with. We don't all make the greatest husbands either so outsourcing the sex can be a better idea.

The worst side of working P4P, in my view, is the dangers involved and the possibility of the womens enjoyment being spoiled.

The best thing about Thai hookers is that such a large percentage are able to enjoy sex (with the right customer) while earning money at the same time.
I don't understand why, but a much lower percentage of Australian hookers actually have an orgasm or at least enjoy sex while working, but there are some.
The common misconception of the media, that they believe no hooker ever orgasms at work, is incredible. Sheer stupidity. There are obviously always some who just cannot control themselves.

In Europe the percentage is higher but not quite as high as Thailand. Black girls and South American girls may be just about equally as horny as Thai girls in my experience, or perhaps even more so. They probably have better endurance than Thais. Black girls are usually best for marathon sex. Not sure why.

I think P4P girls are great (not all of them). I would be a hypocrit to think otherwise.
Don't know why I would pick up a girlfriend unless she can provide cheaper, better, and more frequent sex and they rarely seem to do that.
I seem to get hooked onto girlfriends for reasons that I cannot quite explain, but it never seems to be for the cheapest and best sex.

Rubber Nursey

05-02-08, 17:02

By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Thailand. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country... There's nothing worse than a preachy hooker from a developed country, who clearly knows fuck all about Asia and the life of hookers here.
With all due respect, OTH, you are neither a woman nor a wh*re, but that doesn't stop you telling everyone how working girls in Thailand think and feel in every second post.

If you WERE a woman or a wh*re, you would know that this statement of yours - given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture - applies to basically every single hooker in every single country, 'developed' or not. These issues are not specific to Thailand, they're specific to sucking cock for cash.

The world over, Governments and do-gooders are running around trying to create 'real alternatives' to prostitution, without even bothering to ask whether it's something sex workers actually want. I can tell you right now, it isn't. And no, I'm not just speaking as a 'preachy Western hooker'. Go to the Empower website and you'll see Thai sex workers are saying exactly the same thing. (For the record, I have a lot more contact with Thai sex workers than you think - probably more than you do, in fact).

I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change. Positive for who? The authorities, the Government, the abolitionist NGOs, perhaps. But sex workers themselves didn't ask for this. Thai sex workers are demanding labour rights, police protection and the right to choose sex work as a legal and legitimate occupation. And they're opposed to exit and re-training strategies.

Your paternalistic assertions that Thai hookers are somehow more 'unfortunate' than Western hookers, is extremely patronising and bordering on racist. Thai sex workers are masters in their field and they're envied and emulated by wh*res around the world. Give them some credit.

Retired Army

05-02-08, 17:39

BTW, there are no 'feminazis', nor is there a 'religious right' here.

Well... there are enough "do gooders from the Western Embassies and NGOs who would love nothering better than to eradicate prostitution as being degrading to women.

For every supposed stunner commanding 5,000 baht a pop there are literally hundreds getting 100 baht or less in truck-stop brothels all over the country, not to mention that there are still girls forced into prostitution, chained to beds in the back alleys of Chinatown and Little India in Bangkok and also in Chiang Mai. Depressing, but true. How I know this is because a colleague of mine did a 2 year, in-depth research project on prostitution in Thailand and he's told me that there are women, who are basically indentured slaves earning as little as 75 baht per customer. I was pretty shocked that this is still happening here.

If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice. But, given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture, and hoping that there might be some positive changes that give the girls real alternatives seems to me to be an enlightened way of thinking.

OTH is correct here, but what is let out of the discussion is that many of the girls involved in prostitution in Thailand are just plain lazy. Why work in a rice field all day for 100 baht when you can "entertain" a farang and make a months wages in one night.

Giotto

05-02-08, 20:44

I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change.
...Rubber Nursey,

Welcome to Thailand! Read a lot of your reports (in the other forums :) )...

With all due respect :) - in the beginning of this discussion you were not talking about forcing sex workers out of the sex industry, you were questioning "the guys" whether they were suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory were a positive change [for a p4p girl, as I understood].

Well, offering jobs in factories or farms can't be wrong at all, just to enable these women to even HAVE A CHOICE. Many of these women here in Thailand don't really have one.

As a bar owner I can assure you that at least here in Thailand (but I am quite sure that it is everywhere like this) the number of available p4p girls (in my case women who want to work in a bar) clearly depends on the economic situation of the country and the availibility of jobs in other professions. The better the situation of the economy is the less girls are working in bars.

There are lots of never ending discussions about the North-East of Thailand, an area with a huge population, the region where most of Thailands working girls are coming from, not much industry (= jobs) there but many farms. For many of us expats it seams to be wanted by the Thai elite that this area stays undeveloped and provides human resources for cheap labour and cheap pleasure for the rich Thais. Offering jobs would for sure not be wrong in that area ...

Your kind of "professional" thinking does not really match with Thai tradition and culture. If a choice were possible many of the Thai p4p girls would work in industry jobs, even 14 hours a day for regular wages, to avoid loosing face within their families and villages. Some would of course remain in business though, most likely those who prefer the faster [and shall I say the easier ?] way of making money.

Giotto

Freeler

05-02-08, 22:06

OTH,

"If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice."

Yeah, now you're the Holland specialist.

Perhaps, you understand what you're saying if I use your words:
"By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Holland. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country... There's nothing worse than a preachy expat teacher from an undeveloped country, who clearly knows fuck all about Europe and the life of hookers here."

There.

RN,

Kisses,

Freeler

Run Mann

05-03-08, 00:18

And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the positive action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go

Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? .
I was a part of this original discussion and agreed with OTH and TT when we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect. You actually took “positive change” and ridiculed it by asking/implying if that meant working in a factory for 14 hours a day or forcing hookers to work in a factory; no one here had suggested anything close to that. Clearly that is not an example of positive change but offering people in the poorer parts of the country like Issan opportunities to compete for scholarships and acceptance into the top universities, encouraging businesses to invest in those areas so that employment opportunities are available and offering job/skills training in those communities are examples of positive change. Of course they would have to be able to secure employment with comparable market wages or if they can secure business loans should they choose that route to create their own businesses. Succeeding in having Thailand compete as a world economic force with fair trade and reduction in the blatant corruption are other examples. Those actions and other examples of leveling the playing field will help the country and its citizen reduce prostitution because the girls will at least have a viable alternative to prostitution.

A level playing field will help but if any woman still wants to be in the business after the playing field is leveled then it’s her right. However, I suspect that given viable, (not ridiculous ones like laboring in a factory for 14 hours) alternatives to prostitution, there would be a significant hooker reduction in this country. We should be grateful for hookers who choose their profession by choice despite having other viable opportunities and feel some guilt for the ones who make their decision by default because they had none.

Old Thai Hand

05-03-08, 02:59

I was a part of this original discussion and agreed with OTH and TT when we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect. You actually took “positive change” and ridiculed it by asking/implying if that meant working in a factory for 14 hours a day or forcing hookers to work in a factory; no one here had suggested anything close to that. Clearly that is not an example of positive change but offering people in the poorer parts of the country like Issan opportunities to compete for scholarships and acceptance into the top universities, encouraging businesses to invest in those areas so that employment opportunities are available and offering job/skills training in those communities are examples of positive change. Of course they would have to be able to secure employment with comparable market wages or if they can secure business loans should they choose that route to create their own businesses. Succeeding in having Thailand compete as a world economic force with fair trade and reduction in the blatant corruption are other examples. Those actions and other examples of leveling the playing field will help the country and its citizen reduce prostitution because the girls will at least have a viable alternative to prostitution.

A level playing field will help but if any woman still wants to be in the business after the playing field is leveled then it’s her right. However, I suspect that given viable, (not ridiculous ones like laboring in a factory for 14 hours) alternatives to prostitution, there would be a significant hooker reduction in this country. We should be grateful for hookers who choose their profession by choice despite having other viable opportunities and feel some guilt for the ones who make their decision by default because they had none.

Well said.

Old Thai Hand

05-03-08, 03:11

Yeah, now you're the Holland specialist.Freeler

I never said I was a Holland expert. But, I've been there many times and have family there, so know something about the country. What part of my reference to Holland was incorrect? Everything I said is true.

..."prostitutes/sex workers have access to the social security system, may join unions, have to pay income tax and are treated like any other self-employed tradesperson. Health and social services are readily available..." Wikipedia (not always the best source for info. But, there are plenty of other sites with the same info).

Why don't you along with Opebo stick with promoting dubious 200 baht bangs in the back alleys of Isaan and leave the serious discussion to others?

Old Thai Hand

05-03-08, 03:24

With all due respect, OTH, you are neither a woman nor a wh*re, but that doesn't stop you telling everyone how working girls in Thailand think and feel in every second post.

If you WERE a woman or a wh*re, you would know that this statement of yours - given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture - applies to basically every single hooker in every single country, 'developed' or not. These issues are not specific to Thailand, they're specific to sucking cock for cash.

The world over, Governments and do-gooders are running around trying to create 'real alternatives' to prostitution, without even bothering to ask whether it's something sex workers actually want. I can tell you right now, it isn't. And no, I'm not just speaking as a 'preachy Western hooker'. Go to the Empower website and you'll see Thai sex workers are saying exactly the same thing. (For the record, I have a lot more contact with Thai sex workers than you think - probably more than you do, in fact).

I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change. Positive for who? The authorities, the Government, the abolitionist NGOs, perhaps. But sex workers themselves didn't ask for this. Thai sex workers are demanding labour rights, police protection and the right to choose sex work as a legal and legitimate occupation. And they're opposed to exit and re-training strategies.

Your paternalistic assertions that Thai hookers are somehow more 'unfortunate' than Western hookers, is extremely patronising and bordering on racist. Thai sex workers are masters in their field and they're envied and emulated by wh*res around the world. Give them some credit.

Well at least one 'feminazi' has raised her ugly head.

BTW, Empower represents such a small percentage of hookers in Thailand that's it's importance and impact is neglible to non-existent.

Terry Terrier

05-03-08, 03:45

Rubber Nursey,

Always good to have your input in the broader-scoping discussions.

But I think you are a little late to this one. Read back a bit to get the flavour. As Run Mann pointed out in his eminently sensible post, we are discussing attractive alternatives for Thai prostitutes, not ones that are in any way coerced. In such an ideal scenario, those who would like to leave the profession but couldn't previously afford to could now do so.

Daddy07

05-03-08, 04:34

...if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.
This is classic statist Marxist Socialist thinking, OTH. Frankly, I don’t believe you believe it. It’s rubbish. First of all, why do you consider the eradication of prostitution a ‘positive?’

Free markets are responsible for all true economic prosperity, and prostitution has thrived for millennia under all kinds of governments, and economic conditions. No government can eradicate prostitution by creating jobs or increasing salaries, (assuming that a government can actually create ANYTHING in the first place). If a government wants to eradicate prostitution, it will use a gun, just like it does to eradicate drugs. And it will fail just like the war on drugs has failed.

Economic prosperity does not preclude prostitution either, but only makes it more expensive relatively speaking. How do you reconcile your position, for example, with prostitution in Japan where the standard of living is highest in the world? There are all kinds of great paying jobs with increased salaries in Japan. Why is prostitution going strong now in China where the communist government meddles in everything?

Supply and demand! Where men demand sex, there will be women to supply it – for a price which is dictated by the level of that demand. It’s the first law of economics.

Old Thai Hand

05-03-08, 04:42

First of all, why do you consider the eradication of prostitution a ‘positive?’ ...
...Supply and demand! Where men demand sex, there will be women to supply it – for a price which is dictated by the level of that demand. It’s the first law of economics.

Actually 'eradicate' was not the right word - too extreme and not possible. It's not called the 'oldest profession' for nothing. Also, personally, I'm not against prostitution and I didn't mean to come across as some kind of bible-thumping do-gooder who wants to save the girls. I simply suggest that creating an environment where good alternatives and choices are available is a "positive". Although it wouldn't be acceptable in Thai culture, prostitution being treated as a profession, and not being so exploitive would better. When you have denial and a desire to maintain the status quo, as is the case in Thailand, you have a recipe for exploitation, which while it may not happen so much in the Farang-oriented sex industry is sadly, all too common on the Thai side of things. Of course, it's all hypothetical. There's no way in hell that the Thais will ever do anything to change things radically enough to provide the opportunities to which I refer. This country thrives on exploitation and suppression of the masses. That's not about to change anytime soon.

Run Mann's take on this discussion is the most reasoned, IMO.

Terry Terrier

05-03-08, 04:56

supply and demand.

a normal level of prostitution in a first world country is around about five hundred working girls per million of population. so, when thailand eventually gets up to speed with it's economy (which it will, eventually), there will (allowing for tourists and expats) be about 2 to 3000 prostitutes in pattaya. then, after the thai authorities do the final clean-up there will be the normal quota of a few hundred girls working in discreet locations, with seasonal increases just like in any tourist resort.

Rubber Nursey

05-03-08, 05:42

Run Mann, Giotto and Terry Terrier,

Thank you for your replies. I have to admit to writing my last two posts in the wee hours of the morning and in a very bad mood and they probably didn't come across in the manner that I meant them to. Exit and re-training is a subject that really gets my goat and I apologise for getting all emotional and not explaining myself properly. As an ex-hooker who has really been struggling to survive in 'real world' employment, I'm probably a little too close to the subject.

I totally support national programs to improve the social and economic status of women and I didn't mean to give the impression that I was opposed to job creation that may prevent some of those women ending up in sex work when they didn't really want to be there. But I get suspicious when a primary objective of a program is to cut and/or eradicate prostitution, because in most cases, it ends up targeting only women already working in the sex industry, not those 'at risk' of entering it. It depends whether the Thai Govt is really committed to creating a level playing field for all women, or if they just want to see a decrease in sex industry employment. That will determine whether women are really offered viable alternatives, or whether they are forced (which is probably too strong a word to use, but exit programs are often highly coercive) to leave sex work when they don't really want to.

Anyway, that's not why I wrote my original post - I was genuinely interested in your thoughts on the subject, but got carried away on another tangent. I was surprised to see P4P clients supporting plans to reduce supply, particularly in the Thailand forum. A client's view of the industry is unique and I really do like to hear how you guys perceive sex workers and the impression you get of their lives and loves. That's why I've hung around this board for so many years! So instead of asking roundabout questions that can be easily misinterpreted, I'll ask you outright - do you think that current Thai sex workers would see (for example) working in an IT centre, as a viable alternative to sex work? Do you believe that any of the jobs they create will be truly comparable to sex work in regard to wages and hours?

Smooches, Freeler :) and Mick Licker, you rock. That was a beautiful post.

Rubber Nursey

05-03-08, 06:32

...we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect.
Just out of interest, in the past few years there has been a MASSIVE increase in Korean women migrating to other countries to work as sex workers. Australia is one of the primary destination countries, where we have seen at least a five-fold increase of Korean workers, but it's also been well documented in other countries. Korea's efforts to reduce prostitution coincided with changes to travel/visa restrictions, which led to many Korean sex workers 'fleeing' the Korean sex industry in search of better working conditions, better money and less (negative) attention from the Government and authorities.

To me, this is another example of coercive and/or abusive anti-prostitution strategies - being passed off as 'positive changes' and 'viable alternatives' for sex workers - failing dismally. The Korean Govt may be claiming a win on the war against prostitution, but all they've really done is send their sex workers to other countries. Not that we mind, of course - we're happy to have them. :)

Redfield10

05-03-08, 07:03

Probably not, unless you have highly desirable skills, a post-grad degree and can get a job teaching university (no age limits at unis): not an easy thing to do especially outside of Bangkok.I have a Master's degree, of course. ;

If I move to Thaland it will be on a decent pension, but certainly don't want to spend all day and night chasing women. I'd be bored to death.

Ok, maybe four hours a day chasing.

M P Lurker

05-03-08, 09:12

By all means governments have a responsibility to try to create an environment where women will have lots of choices for work that can pay enough to live on. A lot easier said than done. Thai culture causes fathers to take their daughters out of school at a young age. The bad attitude of the father is that its a waste of money educating girls when their destiny is to become a housewife and look after the kids.

Other opportunities is not so important for prostitutes doing very well.
The problem is that there are too many P4P (full or part time) in Bangkok to allow them all to make a good living. then again there are too many taxis too.

The alternatives should be for those who cannot earn enough selling sex.

Educating women to delay having babies seems important to me. The number of single mothers, whose Thai husbands have run away abandoning both wife and child, that need to to get extra money somehow is extraordinary in Thailand.

There is no legally forced child support from fathers as far as I know.

Prostitution will never go away.
Those countries with few choices for well paid jobs but lots of pretty women, and any acceptance that sex itself is really not so evil, will always have the most P4P girls.

Just accept it and enjoy it! I envy those who are not sex addicts and can just leave sex alone.

I proudly support girls of Thailand and their kids financially unlike the real fathers of the those kids.

Old Thai Hand

05-03-08, 10:44

Seydlitz

05-03-08, 12:06

So instead of asking roundabout questions that can be easily misinterpreted, I'll ask you outright - do you think that current Thai sex workers would see (for example) working in an IT centre, as a viable alternative to sex work? Do you believe that any of the jobs they create will be truly comparable to sex work in regard to wages and hours?.

If I may intrude in this lovely battle of wits, my personal view is that one cannot answer that question because in Thailand there are in fact at least two sex industries, one catering to local needs and one for the sex tourists. I have only limited insight into the Thai-oriented scene, but as far as the Farang-oriented market is concerned, my impression is that the Thai economy will probably never be able (nor willing) to compete to attract the best and brightest (and cutest) gals who can be successful in the naughty nightlife. There is simply too much money to be made too easily.

The other aspect is that for many of the Thai girls servicing the Farang market, it is a fun life to have. There is the excitement of the big city, the buzz of the nightlife, plentiful booze, plenty of funny friends to make, and enough money to indulge in the occasional shopping spree while still sending home the all important money that the family has come to expect. Anyhow, it sure beats taking care of the cattle home in Wherethefuckaburi or indeed working 14 hours a day in a meat packing factory in suburban Bangkok.

True, it is a relatively short career, but long-term planning is not a Thai strong point Besides, most of these gals had very little to lose in term of social face or respectability to start with and coming home to Wherethefuckaburi with enough money to build a decent house sort of compensates the social stigma.

I suppose that one could reason along similar lines for sex workers in the Thai scene, so that p4p in Thailand will stay, I guess, even if it is true that the sex scene is no more what it used to be. That may be because the top 10% of the potential sex workers have found better things to do with their lives, however I suspect that there is an increasingly important segment of the Thai p4p population that is now simply seeking to get better money abroad (Singapore or Macau for example) for the same work.

Bumholes1

05-03-08, 12:34

. Anyhow, it sure beats taking care of the cattle home in Wherethefuckaburi

Now what part of Isaan might that be in?

Perhaps that's Opebo's home town!

Opebo

05-03-08, 14:01

You're a funny guy, is what you are. Is that all you can come up with? I can't believe that you mean this silly statement to be taken seriously. But, I'll respond as if that's your intention.

No, Mr. O it's not your right, especially here. You are a guest. You have no rights or say in anything in LOS. As a Farang, your position here is so tenuous, you could be tossed out on your ass, without a reason. So, if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.

You are such a simplistic literalist, Old - I did not mean that one has a recognized right in Thai law to be free from State interference in one's sex life. I was referring to human rights in a more general, theoretical, and international sense - in other words my opinion of what should be human rights. Certainly in practice none of we working class persons have any rights at all, either at home or abroad. Rights are reserved - in fact - for the owning class.

It also became clear from some of your other posts that you misunderstood me in other ways. I did not imply that one has a right 'to a prostitute'. I stated that both john and prostitute have a right to expect to be free from State interference in their interactions. If you and she cannot come to an amicable arrangement then that's your problem.

Run Mann

05-03-08, 15:18

to me, this is another example of coercive and/or abusive anti-prostitution strategies - being passed off as 'positive changes' and 'viable alternatives' for sex workers - failing dismally. the korean govt may be claiming a win on the war against prostitution, but all they've really done is send their sex workers to other countries. not that we mind, of course - we're happy to have them. :)
this is just poor diminutive flavor analysis of a given situation. this story about increase korean women entering australian has been out there for a while. after human traffickers started having visa and other issues bringing thai women into australia they focused their efforts on korean women by promising them the moon. not sure why you think all these women were originally sex workers but it’s actually a faulty assertion. many of them were ordinary women, (we have seen similar situation in other countries) that were duped and deceived with false promises of large sums of money for employment. korean women are inveterately known to be delicacies for many sexual appetites. go to london, nyc, los angeles, amsterdam and many other major cities and you will find them. they are there because of the demand for them not because of the crackdown. there are many examples of how the koreans have successfully transform their country but i see no reason to list them here.

i will agree with you on the point you made that you are too close this being a (former) sex worker yourself to be objective of which you seem not to be, at least as it pertains to this situation. you summarily dismissed oth’s research (presentation) because it was contrary to your view and you immaturely and incorrectly analyzed the above without any empirical data to support your claim coupled with your previous post here where you were off base (although you explained your reason for that) says that you are looking more for validation of your views than objective answers or analysis with your question in that last post. of course this is just my honest view based on what you’ve written here and not meant to attack you as a person. here are a couple of links to about koreans and some of their issue in australia and see the story below about increase koreans entering australian and a detail [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) report from the aussies that touch on the issues with the koreans.

having said all that i wish you well in what ever mission you are on but would say as you probably already know objectivity will produce the truth.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23334240-12377,00.html

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/what's%20new/australiatrafficking.pdf

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_8479109________________________________________________________________
australian sex traffickers target korean women

sydney - traffickers are turning to south korean women after a crackdown by australian police on the importation of "sex slaves" from thailand, australia's national broadcaster has charged.

the australian crime commission confirmed that while the number of thai sex workers in australia had decreased, the number from south korea had increased, the abc website reported yesterday.
"traffickers in particular knew that thai women were being watched more, they were being scrutinised more," said kathleen altzahn from the non-government organisation project respect.

"in the case specifically of south korean women, they don't have to get the same sort of visas as thai women. they can get working holiday visas, so then they can work legally in australia without so much difficulty."
thai women are often gang-raped, starved and beaten to coerce them into accepting the conditions of contracts which demand they pay "debts" of up to a$50,000 ($37,500) to the traffickers, she said.

a former sex worker, nikki, told the lateline programme that there seemed to be a shift where thai women were still being brought out to australian brothels but so were many korean women. "traffickers are just finding another way, basically, to get around things," she said. "it's gone from thai women and now there's a demand for let's say more exotic asian women like korean women. "i have a prediction that the next spate will be african women. and where there is a demand, someone will supply."

justice minister chris ellison was quoted as saying he was pleased that the shift from thai women to south korean women had been picked up because police could now adjust their tactics.

Rubber Nursey

05-03-08, 16:48

Not sure why you think all these women were originally sex workers but it’s actually a faulty assertion. Many of them were ordinary women as we have seen in from many other countries that were duped and deceived with false promises of large sums of money for employment.
I've been heavily involved in issues around trafficking in Australia for a number of years and I can't even begin to tell you how ill-informed the Australian media is on the issue. Groups like Project Respect, quoted in the article you posted, rely heavily on promoting and perpetuating trafficking myths so they'll keep getting bucketfuls of money thrown at them. With encouragement from people like the US Government, they've turned trafficking into a multi-million dollar 'rescue' industry. The Australian Institute of Criminology is due to release a report which will hopefully open a few people's eyes to the realities of trafficking in Australia.

My comment wasn't a scientific analysis of the situation - it was just my personal opinion (I did say 'to me'). However, my opinion is based on both anecdotal evidence from Korean sex workers and empirical data.
http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migrant-workers/2008/
http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migrant-workers/
http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migration/

As to dismissing OTH's colleague's research, I was a bit miffed at his suggestion that I knew nothing about prostitution, but is mate does because he's done some study about it. It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because he didn't agree with my point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.

I'm not looking for validation of my own beliefs. I know exactly where I stand on the issue of education and re-training and I'm not likely to change my mind unless I see an example of some sort of success. What I'm interested in is how other people (clients, NGOs, Govts, etc) justify these sorts of programs. I like to hear different perspectives...although I admit it's mostly so I can develop arguments against alternative opinions. ;) But if every one of you guys had answered 'Yes, I think Thai hookers would leave the industry in droves if they opened an IT centre', then I might have to reconsider my position, or at least try and see the issue from a different angle.

Rubber Nursey

05-03-08, 17:01

The other aspect is that for many of the Thai girls servicing the Farang market, it is a fun life to have. There is the excitement of the big city, the buzz of the nightlife, plentiful booze, plenty of funny friends to make, and enough money to indulge in the occasional shopping spree while still sending home the all important money that the family has come to expect.
That's a really important point, Seydlitz, and one that's often overlooked when talking about viable alternatives to sex work. For many girls, hooking is not just about the money - it's an entire lifestyle. When workers leave the industry, they are often also walking away from their friends, their social lives and sometimes even their sex lives.

The stigma of sex work can really impact on your ability to maintain relationships with people outside the sex industry, to the point where just about everyone you know is either a hooker, a client or a brothel owner. When you 'get a real job' you have to leave your entire support network behind, especially in cases where being seen with your old workmates could put your current employment at risk. It's very, very hard to walk away from everything you know and love.

Old Thai Hand

05-03-08, 18:30

As to dismissing OTH's colleague's research, I was a bit miffed at his suggestion that I knew nothing about prostitution, but is mate does because he's done some study about it. It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because he didn't agree with my point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.

Firstly, Empower largely represents girls in the Farang-oriented sex industry which makes up less than 10% of the total sex industry in Thailand. It doesn't for instance represent Burmese sex slaves languishing in hundreds of border brothels, nor the Indian hookers trafficked into Paharat in Bangkok.

I never said you knew nothing about prostitution, I said you appeared to know little about prostitution in Thailand especially as it relates to Thai culture. But, perhaps my assessment was wrong.

"Some study" that my collegaue did was an intense, thorough 2-year investigation into every nook and cranny of the sex industry in Thailand. It was so thorough in fact, that it sent shivers through the Thai ministry that funded it and they immediately buried it as too explosive. The last thing the Thai government wants made public is the shameful truth about the pervasive and sinister dark side of prostitution in this country.

If by personal attack, you mean because I called you a feminazi; well perhaps that was unfair. But, you were coming across a bit strident and femi-something and you weren't too objective in your comments about me, as well. Even if all of us don't agree, it's best to try to keep it non-personal.

Run Mann

05-03-08, 22:06

It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because he didn't agree with my point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.
Then I suppose you can see why you came across as I described (too emotionally involved), still his actions doesn't justify yours.

Those stories about the Korean women being trafficked and there are more stories, were also reported by the Korean and U.S media unless that are all lying about those women being trafficked. Interesting that after reading that article by where the Australian Government identified the reasoning for the influx of Koreans, you attempt to counter that factual article because it is in contrast to your opinion. I did not see anything in those articles you posted that supported your opinion. However, even though you said it was your opinion and used an event incorrectly as a precursor to your opinion, you should be responsible in making opinionated claims that any minor research would have produce the answers to if you are serious about being, that word again.. objective. Good luck.

M P Lurker

05-04-08, 09:20

i've been heavily involved in issues around trafficking in australia for a number of years and i can't even begin to tell you how ill-informed the australian media is on the issue. groups like project respect, quoted in the article you posted, rely heavily on promoting and perpetuating trafficking myths so they'll keep getting bucketfuls of money thrown at them. with encouragement from people like the us government, they've turned trafficking into a multi-million dollar 'rescue' industry. the australian institute of criminology is due to release a report which will hopefully open a few people's eyes to the realities of trafficking in australia.

i have been aquainted with several girls working illegally in australia in the past (mostly thai but some others).
i haven't been to places where girls are totally locked up like sex slaves. i wouldn't have been let in.

the girls i knew had several enemies:
1. the australian immigration out to catch them, lock them up in detention, and send them back to their home country.
2. the contract bosses who had tricked them, taking virtually all the money earned until the massive contract was paid off.
some bosses would report girls to immigration once the debt was paid off. mostly the girls' passports had been confirep001ed by the bosses to prevent girls escaping. some girls were kept under very strict "supervision" all the time.
but not all bosses were totally evil.
3. other working girls jealous of the foreign girl's popularity would report them to immigration.

the customers were the good guys (mostly) and some customers helped girls to escape from their extreme situations.

some girls who were really lucky made a lot of money in the end and much more than what they could have in their home country.

the authorities should have been focussing on illegal activities of the contract bosses, be it taxation fraud, stealing passports, selling girls on to a 3rd party, imprisoning girls, coercing girls to work with no work permit, etc.
the girls themselves were just pawns in the play.

its very strange to government authorities deporting foreign prostitutes, seemingly to protect the higher priced business of australian prostitutes who delivered a poor service on average (a few good ones but mostly lousy in my opinion), and protecting the very lucrative business of brothel owners not using the illegal foreign workers.

the european common market is great because it allows prostitutes to work, coming from a very broad set of foreign countries, although the fkk clubs in germany do have police raids from time to time too, checking credentials for working (could be looking for **** girls).

Bob Down

05-04-08, 11:55

I tried doing the same with Western women and all they wanted was more and more and in return treated the dog better. At least the dog got fed regularly and occasionally got sex. If I wanted something to eat I fixed it myself and if I wanted sex I had to either do it myself or find it elsewhere. And if I went looking eslewhere you could hear the Western wife bitching a mile away. Different with the Thai wife. From the very beginning I told her that I needed sex regularly and if she didn't give it to me then I would get it elsewhere. Thai women seem to accept this as a fact of life.

Just copied the above from the BKK reports as it should be in this thread.

I wanted to know if you ever needed to go elsewhere for sex, I was in Philippines last week for a holiday but failed to tell my TG I was going. Had to admit I was not at home, she had decided by herself I was there fucking around without any help from me. She knows I have friends in Philippines she doesn't know they are bargirls. But to her any female friend must be a fuck buddy.

I have a few thai girls I chat to online, some very flirty and like to play the field. Others are definitely one man girls and their men will definitely be one girl guys.

I guess every girl has their own idea as to what is acceptable and what is not.

PS. she is still talking to me even if I failed to take her on holiday with me or spend my holiday with her. I will be back in BKK later this year to see her.

Rubber Nursey

05-04-08, 14:17

If by personal attack, you mean because I called you a feminazi; well perhaps that was unfair. But, you were coming across a bit strident and femi-something and you weren't too objective in your comments about me, as well. Even if all of us don't agree, it's best to try to keep it non-personal.
C'mon, OTH...you also called me a preachy Western hooker and told me I knew fuck all about anything! But I shouldn't have bitten back and I apologise for my short temper. I'm actually about as far from a feminazi as you're ever going to meet and I'm on your side (that is, P4P clients' side) in this fight. I come to this site to learn and you guys have been invaluable in increasing my understanding of international issues over the years. I'd really like to be able to chat without things getting nasty.

Empower ....doesn't for instance represent Burmese sex slaves languishing in hundreds of border brothels, nor the Indian hookers trafficked into Paharat in Bangkok.
They try, OTH. They keep their ear to the ground and their finger on the pulse and try very hard to be aware of, and support, women from all over the Thai sex industry. But when I originally referred to Empower, I was talking about a specific issue. Trafficking and sex slavery are very different to exit and re-training and/or preventing women entering the sex industry. Empower does not support the latest efforts by the Thai Govt because of the potential negative impact on current sex workers and I respect their assessment as experts in their field. But either way, exit programs will not prevent traffickers exploiting and abusing women. Providing alternative employment MAY give local women options other than entering prostitution themselves or engaging middle men to find them work, but it won't stop situations where girls are bought and sold into prostitution (the potential financial rewards are just too large compared to 'regular' work), nor will it stop women from outside Thailand being smuggled into the country. The two issues have to be looked at separately.

My problem with this (and every other 'eradication' method employed by every other country) is that it's simply a bandaid solution. It's treatment for a symptom, rather than a cure for the illness. It doesn't address ANY of the larger problems associated with leaving the industry. For example, one of the primary things that these sorts of initiatives usually ignore, is the stigma associated with being an ex-hooker. Even in my own country, you can train and re-skill a sex worker all you like, but the gaps in her resume, the paper trail detailing her brothel employment, or the prostitution convictions on her record, will always brand her as a wh*re and jeopardise her chances of regular employment. With the added issues of class and 'face' in Asian countries, I can only imagine the difficulties Thai hookers face when trying to leave sex work.

The Thai Government needs to introduce anti-discrimination legislation. They need to stop taking down names and/or arresting sex workers. They need to stop police going to villages and blackmailing ex-sex workers under threat of disclosure. And they need to do all this at the same time as they start offering sex workers alternative employment, because without these protections, ex-hookers cannot survive in the real world. Governments and abolitionist NGOs need to stop focusing on the 'sex' part of sex work and start taking a more wholistic view. It's just not as simple as offering someone another job.

Rubber Nursey

05-04-08, 15:00

Interesting that after reading that article by where the Australian Government identified the reasoning for the influx of Koreans, you attempt to counter that factual article because it is in contrast to your opinion.
I can't believe we're having an argument based on what appears in the media! I don't believe a single word the newspapers tell me - I believe only what I see and hear for myself, from first-hand sources. A couple of years ago, I was involved in a series of interviews by a reporter with an overtly anti-sex work agenda. After a lengthy email and two follow-up phone conversations, you know what his eventual article said? "Representatives from [organisation name] were unavailable for comment".

We're wh*res, Run Mann. Whether it's the Australian sex worker association or an international sex worker representative, our opinions and experiences count for nothing in this debate. It doesn't matter that we're actually the ones advising the Australian Govt, the Federal Police, the Immigration Dept...even the US State Dept...on Australian sex industry issues. The papers will only speak to the abolitionist NGOs running rescue programs, because traffickers and sex slaves make good copy. International media runs it for the same reason - especially America, because they started all this and they have something to prove.

You don't have to agree with anything I say. I don't believe anything I haven't experienced for myself and neither should you. But I have no ulterior motives and no reason to bullshit anyone. My only concern in the world is the health and safety of sex workers, be they Australian, Thai, Korean or Martian. I don't make any money doing what I do, nor do I stand to benefit from any changes to policy (as I don't work in the industry any more). I live in a wealthy country that's prepared to spend money assisting people in the Asia-Pacific region and I intend to see that it's spent wisely, not wasted chasing shadows.

Retired Army

05-04-08, 18:07

I wanted to know if you ever needed to go elsewhere for sex, I was in Philippines last week for a holiday but failed to tell my TG I was going. Had to admit I was not at home, she had decided by herself I was there fucking around without any help from me. She knows I have friends in Philippines she doesn't know they are bargirls. But to her any female friend must be a fuck buddy.

I have a few thai girls I chat to online, some very flirty and like to play the field. Others are definitely one man girls and their men will definitely be one girl guys.

I guess every girl has their own idea as to what is acceptable and what is not.

PS. she is still talking to me even if I failed to take her on holiday with me or spend my holiday with her. I will be back in BKK later this year to see her.

Only a couple of times. Once I got caught red handed taking a girl from Thermae. The receptionst at the hotel was a friend of my GF and knew who I was even though I had no Ideas she knew my GF. First thing she did was call my GF and bust me. TGF was mad for a couple of days, then moved off the issue and has never broughjt it up since. Ever since that episode I have stuck to high end escort agencies and five star hotels to ensure something similar doesn't happen again.

My question for you is: how do you know that your Thai GF isn't doing the same thing you are?

Terry Terrier

05-04-08, 23:57

They try, OTH. They keep their ear to the ground and their finger on the pulse and try very hard to be aware of, and support, women from all over the Thai sex industry. But when I originally referred to Empower, I was talking about a specific issue. Trafficking and sex slavery are very different to exit and re-training and/or preventing women entering the sex industry. Empower does not support the latest efforts by the Thai Govt because of the potential negative impact on current sex workers and I respect their assessment as experts in their field. But either way, exit programs will not prevent traffickers exploiting and abusing women. Providing alternative employment MAY give local women options other than entering prostitution themselves or engaging middle men to find them work, but it won't stop situations where girls are bought and sold into prostitution (the potential financial rewards are just too large compared to 'regular' work), nor will it stop women from outside Thailand being smuggled into the country. The two issues have to be looked at separately.

My problem with this (and every other 'eradication' method employed by every other country) is that it's simply a bandaid solution. It's treatment for a symptom, rather than a cure for the illness. It doesn't address ANY of the larger problems associated with leaving the industry. For example, one of the primary things that these sorts of initiatives usually ignore, is the stigma associated with being an ex-hooker. Even in my own country, you can train and re-skill a sex worker all you like, but the gaps in her resume, the paper trail detailing her brothel employment, or the prostitution convictions on her record, will always brand her as a wh*re and jeopardise her chances of regular employment. With the added issues of class and 'face' in Asian countries, I can only imagine the difficulties Thai hookers face when trying to leave sex work.

The Thai Government needs to introduce anti-discrimination legislation. They need to stop taking down names and/or arresting sex workers. They need to stop police going to villages and blackmailing ex-sex workers under threat of disclosure. And they need to do all this at the same time as they start offering sex workers alternative employment, because without these protections, ex-hookers cannot survive in the real world. Governments and abolitionist NGOs need to stop focusing on the 'sex' part of sex work and start taking a more wholistic view. It's just not as simple as offering someone another job.

That's a good, informative post, Rubber Nursey. It goes some way to explaining why the vast majority of ex-bargirls in my home region live normal non-prostitution lifestyles: It's about the best 'new start' (with mostly people who don't know their backgrounds) that they will ever get, and most of them are clever enough to take it.

Rubber Nursey

05-05-08, 02:47

it's about the best 'new start' (with mostly people who don't know their backgrounds) that they will ever get, and most of them are clever enough to take it.
in just the past few months, three australian school teachers and two police officers have been discovered, fired and then humiliated in the national media for being ex-hookers. and all in states where sex work is legal! you can imagine the message this sends to current hookers considering leaving the industry, or to ex-workers now working in 'respected' fields. it can stop you applying for those sorts of jobs at all, leaving you to choose between a 'safe' (usually low paying) job like retail or hospitality, or staying in the sex industry.

as you said, the best new start is in a place where people don't know your background, which brings with it another set of problems. it often means starting fresh in an unfamiliar environment, with limited social support networks. it's imperative that exit strategies include additional resources for confidential peer support services, because if the girls don't feel like they can manage in the 'real world', they'll head straight back to the world they know.

the people most in need of viable employment alternatives - like the women that oth talked about, working in exploitative conditions - often have the most barriers to participation. they likely have fewer social supports, lower levels of education and may be suffering the effects of violence and trauma, like low self-esteem or social phobias. being 'low end' providers, they've probably had more contact with the police and might have criminal records. in my understanding, they're also more likely to have been servicing local men (correct me if i'm wrong) or maybe working the streets, so they'd have more risk of being recognised. these women will not survive in the real world if you just hand them a new job and leave them to their own devices.

governments and ngos never look at the big picture issues, which is why so many re-education/rehabilitation programs around the world have failed. again, it's about whether they're doing it for the welfare of sex workers, or just to reduce sex industry numbers (who cares how they cope, so long as they're gone).

ps: oth - can i ask why your colleague was commissioned to do that research? what had the govt originally hoped to establish?

Old Thai Hand

05-05-08, 03:47

PS: OTH - Can I ask why your colleague was commissioned to do that research? What had the Govt originally hoped to establish?

A lot of times, the Thai government commissions studies because there's money that has to be spent, not because anyone is really interested in the results.

But, in this case I think they were originally trying to prove that prostitution wasn't nearly as pervasive or as bad as the NGOs were saying. They ended up with egg on their faces. For example, they have always stuck to the official figure of 75,000 as the number of prostitutes in Thailand. The NGOs have always maintained its around 2,000,000 and my colleague's study supported that latter figure, which alone pissed off the government. In a typical Thai move, they called the study 'faulty' and shelved it. Of course, the empirical evidence was beyond doubt. But, they simply ignored it.

Mauldid

05-05-08, 04:20

Having lived in HK and Korea for about 2 years now I find that alot of Asian girls do not pluck their light mustache. This is more even true for Thai girls. I have seen some of the most beautiful girls (not ladyboys) with a light upper lip hair that is really noticeable from their profile. Both young and older gals are sporting it like it was in style. Even a good Thai friend of mine in HK has this mustache. I want to tell her about it but might be to offensive even for a friend to say. So what do you guys think. Remember these are not katoey but real ladies.

Bob Down

05-05-08, 05:04

Only a couple of times. Once I got caught red handed taking a girl from Thermae. The receptionst at the hotel was a friend of my GF and knew who I was even though I had no Ideas she knew my GF. First thing she did was call my GF and bust me. TGF was mad for a couple of days, then moved off the issue and has never broughjt it up since. Ever since that episode I have stuck to high end escort agencies and five star hotels to ensure something similar doesn't happen again.

My question for you is: how do you know that your Thai GF isn't doing the same thing you are?

Good question, I have no answer to that. She lied to her own mother about spending the night with me. Told her mother she was on a girls night out. So if she can lie to her own mother she can lie to me too. I am still working on the is she playing me or not.

She even joked about finding a gig as it will be almost a year before I see her again.

There is only one girl in BKK that I trust and she is already taken, she is very much inlove with her man and is a good source of advice about all things Thai, she is even happy to introduce me to her girlfriend even if she knows I see bargirls.

Still yet to meet the girlfriend. Have seen pictures and she is kind of cute.

Bumholes1

05-05-08, 05:16

She even joked about finding a gig as it will be almost a year before I see her again.

Unlikely to be a joke! Will you go without for a year? I doubt it, especially if it is handed to you on a plate. Why should she? Women used to be about keeping their men happy, but nowadays they consider themselves, and unless there is something wrong with her, she will have a hungry pussy many times during the next year!

There are 10 Thai girls in my village with either husband or boyfriend away, all sending money regularly. And every one of them has another man! As Trink would say TIT

Rubber Nursey

05-05-08, 05:51

In a typical Thai move, they called the study 'faulty' and shelved it. Of course, the empirical evidence was beyond doubt. But, they simply ignored it.
That's exactly why I said in my earlier post that I have very little faith in prostitution research. Maybe I should have qualified that as 'available' or 'published' prostitution research. Soooo many studies never see the light of day because their findings are contrary to the popular understanding of sex work, or because someone high-up might end up with that same egg on their face. Most available research is highly subjective or down-right biased and unethical.

Interesting that the Thai Govt prefers to underestimate the size of their sex industry. (Over here, numbers are routinely OVERestimated). Thailand is considered both a source and destination country for trafficking by the US TIP report and would likely be under a lot of pressure to prove they're doing something to rectify the situation. That report is causing a lot of Asian countries to fudge numbers, deny problems and launch aggressive campaigns against the sex industry. Which, of course, only increases the risk of trafficking and other abuses occurring....but that's a whole other rant. :)

Was that 2,000,000 an 'at any one time' figure, or an 'over a certain period of time' figure? In case that doesn't make any sense, the estimated number of street-based sex workers in my city, over the course of a year, is around 200. But there are generally only between 5 and 10 street girls working at any one time. The transient nature of sex work can make firm numbers difficult to ascertain.

Old Thai Hand

05-05-08, 06:26

Was that 2,000,000 an 'at any one time' figure, or an 'over a certain period of time' figure?

2,000,000 at one time. It remains the current estimate of the number of active prostitutes in the country.

Bumholes1

05-05-08, 06:44

2,000,000 at one time. It remains the current estimate of the number of active prostitutes in the country.

Probably 1 million + occasional prostitutes - ie once a month or less. Regular prostitutes, (full time bar, massage or brothel workers) and street girls likely to be around 500,000.

Rubber Nursey

05-05-08, 07:18

2,000,000 at one time. It remains the current estimate of the number of active prostitutes in the country.
Wow. So I guess by sticking with the 'official' number of 75,000, they're only really admitting to the existence of the Farang-oriented industry, not the local industry?

Do you think that's just a cheeky attempt to make the 'problem' look smaller than it is, or is there perhaps a distinction made in Thai society between the Farang market and the Thai market? You know...servicing tourists seen as more of a commercial enterprise, whereas women (of a certain class) servicing locals is, I don't know, an expectation? A duty? A tradition?

Actually, on that note, is there a difference in the way sex workers are treated in Thai society depending on whether they work in the Farang or Thai sectors?

Bumholes1

05-05-08, 07:42

Actually, on that note, is there a difference in the way sex workers are treated in Thai society depending on whether they work in the Farang or Thai sectors?

Probably.

It seems to be the ones who work in the farang sector, who have money, build nice homes in their villages, provide family with motorbikes etc. They are the ones who are accepted in their villages. Those that work in the Thai sector generally hide the fact, since they have nothing much to show for it, and merely eke out a basic living.

Old Thai Hand

05-05-08, 07:54

Wow. So I guess by sticking with the 'official' number of 75,000, they're only really admitting to the existence of the Farang-oriented industry, not the local industry?

Do you think that's just a cheeky attempt to make the 'problem' look smaller than it is, or is there perhaps a distinction made in Thai society between the Farang market and the Thai market? You know...servicing tourists seen as more of a commercial enterprise, whereas women (of a certain class) servicing locals is, I don't know, an expectation? A duty? A tradition?

The Thais like to blame the Farang for the existence of the sex industry. The visibility of it makes it quite easy to point a finger. Ironically, the power elite own large segments of the sex industry, have made their wealth from it and the true origins, if one wants to point a finger can be laid at the feet of the Chinese.

As an interesting sidebar, the Thais had brothels attached to their temples 500 years ago. Of course, revisionist historians and cultural defenders don't like to be reminded of this.

Actually, on that note, is there a difference in the way sex workers are treated in Thai society depending on whether they work in the Farang or Thai sectors?

The ones from the Farang-oriented industry might be treated better on the surface because they have money. But, just below the surface, they are universally vilified by all levels of Thai society. Such is Thai hypocricy.

M P Lurker

05-05-08, 12:09

Probably 1 million + occasional prostitutes - ie once a month or less. Regular prostitutes, (full time bar, massage or brothel workers) and street girls likely to be around 500,000.
In western society we have a lot of girls who just go out and pick someone up for some casual sex.

I think this is less prevalent in Thailand (due to culture). So the majority of girls going to a pick up place will be looking for some financial help (and needing it). And yet these girls can be very choosy about who they go with, in many cases going empty handed because they didn't like the guys who approached.

In many cases no money was discussed with me at all. They were too shy. On the other hand they did not refuse to accept money when leaving and sometimes were surprised that I was reasonably generous. Many of these girls were very much part timers and only going out when short of money. So there are very large numbers of casual P4P girls that have regular jobs as well (or maybe between jobs) and may well be able to keep their P4P status secret. However girls will often be suspected of being some old man's 2nd wife (or 3rd).

One Thai girl I know, who has lived abroad for many years, picked up a Thai man in a BKK club, and although she wasn't expecting him to pay, was very shocked when found that he was expecting her to pay. She claimed he was lousy too.

Bob Down

05-05-08, 13:24

Unlikely to be a joke! Will you go without for a year? I doubt it, especially if it is handed to you on a plate. Why should she? Women used to be about keeping their men happy, but nowadays they consider themselves, and unless there is something wrong with her, she will have a hungry pussy many times during the next year!

There are 10 Thai girls in my village with either husband or boyfriend away, all sending money regularly. And every one of them has another man! As Trink would say TIT

My girl may or may not have a gig, I am not to know or care. I know enough to know it is a possiblity. Maybe OTH's girl also has a gig as may Mick Lickers girl, can either of them be sure. I have meet a number of girls in my travels that have foreign husbands and local boyfriends, I even know a girl that has two Thai boyfriends in the same city.

But in saying that I know girls that are only interested in have one husband/boyfriend. It all depends on the girl I guess.

MeatMan

05-21-08, 15:37

SE Asain woman can NOT deepthroat!. That is all. Return to your regularlly scheduled postings!:D

Dan7373

05-23-08, 06:07

....
Actually, on that note, is there a difference in the way sex workers are treated in Thai society depending on whether they work in the Farang or Thai sectors?

I don't know if Thai society treats them any different. But I've seen how Thai men treat P4P ladies in Thailand. And it was a lot different from the way Farangs treat them.

The Thai P4P lady I knew worked at a road-side restaurant near a small town in north-east Thailand. And some of the Thai men who stopped there apparently wanted more than just the food service from her. Which she was willing to provide.

I was sitting in that restaurant. And I've seen how one Thai man wooed this P4P lady. Basically, he tried to show his generosity by buying some expensive dishes, including alcoholic beverages for himself and her. And he treated her like a beautiful lady (which she was) with respect and some admiration.

A year later I've heard about this P4P lady that she listened to some people's advice and went to Pattaya to try her hand with the farangs. And she couldn't stand it. She left Pattaya and went back to her P4P work with Thai men.

The Thai men didn't pay her as much as farangs did. But she prefered the Thai men anyway. Perhaps the farangs were a little too business-like for her. And they didn't show her enough respect.

But on another note. My impression is that there isn't any clear separation in Thailand between P4P ladies and those who are not. Any single Thai lady is fair game for Thai men, when she is alone without any male escort. And if she is attractive enough. Then she gets plenty of offers from the men all the time, whether they can pay her or not. And whether she accepts these offers or not is often a matter of whether she can do it in a discreet way without ruining her reputation. A lady who is travelling far away from her home village is more likely to accept such offers.

Run Mann

05-23-08, 06:24

My impression is that there isn't any clear separation in Thailand between P4P ladies and those who are not. Any single Thai lady is fair game for Thai men, when she is alone without any male escort.

There is a separation but you may not be looking at the country conceptually which is why you made the statement above. Hookers always stand out in any society, they act different, they look different and their make up change after being involved in the life for any prolong period and their views and thinking change. Of course there are exceptions and this issue has been discussed here many times but many posters who will tell you there are vast contrasts between Thai hookers and regular Thai women and in my experience I have also found this to be true but then again it would be true in any society or country.

Dan7373

05-23-08, 06:38

Hookers always stand out in any society, they act different, they look different and their make up change after being involved in the life for any prolong period and their views and thinking change....

Many single women in Thailand do some hooking until they get married. And their hooking period may not be that prolonged, especially if the lady is attractive.

I'm sure you can find ladies at both extremes of the hooking spectrum. Those who are very professional and go all out to make money from men. And those who hook reluctantly, only when the men are persistent enough with them. But there also are plenty of women who are in between these two extremes.

The reason why westerners insist on a clear separation between P4P ladies and those who are not is perhaps due their cultural conditioning in the West.

Most western women never hook for money directly. And only some western women do. But there is no reason why people of other cultures must have the same mind-set as the westerners have. And in many cases, such as in Thailand, they don't have such a mind-set.

Run Mann

05-23-08, 10:16

Many single women in Thailand do some hooking until they get married.

You are making this claim based on what?

The reason why westerners insist on a clear separation between P4P ladies and those who are not is perhaps due their cultural conditioning in the West.

I'd say there are many Thai women who want and insist on the separation, they don't want to be grouped with the P4P women for obvious reasons. Most westerners (men) probably don't want the separation for even more obvious reasons.

Terry Terrier

05-23-08, 11:46

There is a separation but you may not be looking at the country conceptually which is why you made the statement above. Hookers always stand out in any society, they act different, they look different and their make up change after being involved in the life for any prolong period and their views and thinking change. Of course there are exceptions and this issue has been discussed here many times but many posters who will tell you there are vast contrasts between Thai hookers and regular Thai women and in my experience I have also found this to be true but then again it would be true in any society or country.

Of course these women are 'in character' when they are in their working environments, and most of them will stand out at least a little even when they are going about their non-work-related daily business in places like Bangkok and Patts. But put them back in their home towns in the provinces and it's a very different story. So much money, for several generations, has entered these regions from Luk/Nid/Noy's daughter going working away from home, the lines have become very blurred. The locals tend to be quite blase about it and generally don't care.

Dan7373

05-23-08, 16:21

You are making this claim based on what?

I've visited many times and staid in a rice-farming village in Isaan. And through my Thai lady there I got to meet many other Thai women. That's how I know about their pre-marital hooking and their marriages afterwards.

Perhaps you have some difficulty understanding the lack of separation between hookers and non-hookers in Thailand because you focus too much on the women and forget the men's role in it all.

As I said earlier, a single attractive Thai woman out and about on her own is considered fair game by Thai men. Which means that they make lewd suggestions to her at every opportunity, when the social circumstances allow for it. And they don't just ask her to fuck for nothing, the way some westerners do. They offer her some favor or money.

Sooner or later, the attractive lady is going to see something in the store that she wants to buy but doesn't have the money for it. Sooner or later she might need some favor from a man. And sooner or later she will happen to be a little in the mood for sex due to her hormonal changes.

And unlike in the West, this lady doesn't need to paint herself up, dress in outrageously revealing clothing, and stand on the street corner to attract the men. She already knows many men who have an outstanding order for sex with her. These men keep reminding her about it all the time. All she needs to do is say 'yes' to one of them. The deed will be done without much trouble for her. And she will get what she wants.

In the West, it's considered a great insult to mistake an ordinary woman for a hooker. And most western men are extremely careful not to make such mistakes. That's why it's so difficult and unusual for western women to do P4P. Western women don't get many offers from men, unless these women really advertise themselves as hookers to everyone. And not many western women are willing to do that and spoil their reputation as a result.

But in Thailand, it's all a matter of putting up a good appearance. If the horny Thai man discreetly offers P4P to a lady he likes. Then there is no insult to her. An insult occurs only when the man is so indiscreet about it that their interaction becomes too obvious and unambiguous for others. The lady looses her face as a result. And that's why she feels insulted.

It's the behavior of men that makes all the difference between Thailand and the West. Western men clearly and rigidly separate women into hookers and non-hookers in their minds and in their behavior. But Thai men tend to see all unatached women as potential P4P ladies. And since men are usually dominant in male-female relationships. It's the men who create their P4P reality both in the West and in Thailand.

Daddy07

05-24-08, 02:22

... As I said earlier, a single attractive Thai woman out and about on her own is considered fair game by Thai men. Which means that they make lewd suggestions to her at every opportunity, when the social circumstances allow for it. And they don't just ask her to fuck for nothing, the way some westerners do. They offer her some favor or money...

...But in Thailand, it's all a matter of putting up a good appearance. If the horny Thai man discreetly offers P4P to a lady he likes. Then there is no insult to her. An insult occurs only when the man is so indiscreet about it that their interaction becomes too obvious and unambiguous for others. The lady looses her face as a result. And that's why she feels insulted.
.
Very interesting! Does this apply to westerners too?

Do you mean that older farangs like me can whisper lewd suggestions into the ears of pretty young Thai waitresses or shop girls, including promises of money, and they will not feel insulted as long as the propositions are discrete?

Old Thai Hand

05-24-08, 03:28

I've visited many times and staid in a rice-farming village in Isaan. And through my Thai lady there I got to meet many other Thai women. That's how I know about their pre-marital hooking and their marriages afterwards.

All this knowledge based on many VISITS and staying in an Isaan farming village. My, my, you have an incredilbe incite into the greater Thai female population, don't you?

Dan, you've only run with one limited sector of the female population in one locale and as an outsider (no matter how many times you've been here).

Making blanket statements about Thai women with your incredibly narrow-focused experience is, to say the least inaccurate and incredibly biased.

Just as Isaan women (not Thai, by the way) are a particular breed and quite apart from women in other areas of the country, (Lanna women in the north, different from central plains Thai women, different from southern Thai-Chinese/Thai-Malay women, different from Bangkok Thai-Chinese women, different from Indian-Thai women) so too are Isaan men different from Thai men elsewhere. Then, there's also the differences in Isaan itself between poor rice farmers and urban and middle-class Isaan people, between women from the different provinces and between Isaan-Lao and Isaan-Khmer.

It's obvious the type of people with whom you've had experience are poor and from the lower classes. Isaan men from that strata are generally pretty much scum. Maybe they can whisper lewd suggestions into the ear of some poor and needy Isaan farm-girl and get a response and therefore think that all Isaan women are fair game. But, I can tell you that if they try it with an Isaan woman who doesn't need their money, or a Thai girl from somewhere else, or from a higher social strata, they're going to get shut down so fast, it'll make their heads spin.

Before you set yourself up as some expert on Thai women and Thai men, I suggest you widen your area of experience and actually try to discover how diverse this country and it's women (and men) are.

And, BTW. I've lived here going on 12 years, have dated women from just about every corner of the country, from every strata of society and I'm still discovering new things all the time about the country and it's people.

NicFrenchy

05-24-08, 03:33

Old Thai Hand

05-24-08, 03:37

I think that's what he meant. Believe me, waitresses and shop girls are hit on times and times again by Westerners, I see it all the time, Old men constantly flirting with the Thai girls. I am sure they do it for a reason: it works.

Yes. Nic. But, these girl are probably all in need of money/patronage. A good friend of mine met his wife at Robinson's on Silom. She was working on the make-up counter, he spotted her, chatted her up and the rest is history. Another friend dated one of the waitresses at Robin Hood for awhile. One of my long term GFs here (4 years) was a waitress at a famous seafood restuarant on Rachada. In ever case, financial consideration played a part.

Move up a notch or two on the social ladder, even if still dealing with those in the service industry or trade and you'll get a very different response. My GF works at a top 5 star hotel in BKK. She tells me that she and her staff are constantly hit on by Farang. But, there's absolutely no interest at all. The thing she finds the most curious is that the Farang, when rejected seemed genuinely surprised and shocked, as if it's a foregone conclusion that every TG would want to be with them.

Terry Terrier

05-24-08, 03:40

All this knoweldge based on many VISITS and staying in an Isaan farming village. My, my, you have an incredilbe incite into the greater Thai female population, don't you?

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Dan, you've only run with one limited sector of the female population in one locale and as an outsider (no matter how many times you've been here).

Making blanket statements about Thai women with your incredibly narrow-focused experience is, to say the least inaccurate and incredibly biased.

Just as Isaan women (not Thai, by the way) are a particular breed and quite apart from women in other areas of the country, (Lanna women in the north, different from central plains Thai women, different from southern Thai-Chinese/Thai-Malay women, different from Bangkok Thai-Chinese women, different from Indian-Thai women) so too are Isaan men different from Thai men elsewhere. Then, there's also the differences in Isaan itself between poor rice farmers and urban and middle-class Isaan people, between women from the different provinces and between Isaan-Lao and Isaan-Khmer.
What an extraordinary post! OTH finally acknowledges that Thailand is not a country populated by pre-programmed robots that all fit into identikit images. Welcome to the real world OTH. It's technicolor, not black and white.

Old Thai Hand

05-24-08, 03:47

What an extraordinary post! OTH finally acknowledges that Thailand is not a country populated by pre-programmed robots that all fit into identikit images. Welcome to the real world OTH. It's technicolor, not black and white.

LOL. That in itself is a somewhat extreme, B&W (and not at all accurate) assessment of me and past views. But, hey. It's your established job to be diametrically opposed to me. That's our understanding, I believe. ;)

Run Mann

05-24-08, 05:26

.

And sooner or later she will happen to be a little in the mood for sex due to her hormonal changes.
You may be tying to be more provocative than informative with statements like this but have you ever tried the technique you mentioned and did it worked for you or is it that only Thai men can accomplish the feat of treating women like hookers?

Old Thai Hand

05-24-08, 05:42

You may be tying to be more provocative than informative with statements like this but have you ever tried the technique you mentioned and did it worked for you or is it that only Thai men can accomplish the feat of treating women like hookers?

On the Pattaya thread, we have Bill Miami talking about treating obvious hookers with respect and reaping the rewards for essentially treating them like non-P4P. Yet, here we have Dan talking about the opposite: treating mostly non-P4P women like HOs and them responding favourably because of hormones.

Thai women are no different than women anywhere. Discretion aside (i.e. whispering lewd suggestions quietly in their ears), Thai women, wherever they are in the country are NOT going to appreciate being spoken to in this way. Yes. Some might respond positively, out of necessity. But, I doubt deep down that they feel happy about it.

One thing I particulary dislike are these guys who have only ever dated/married poor Isaan farm girls and maybe even lived in an Isaan village and somehow now think they are experts on Thailand, Thai culture and Thai people. If they know anything, they only know something about poor Isaan farm girls and life in a poor Isaan farm village. That's all.

I am constantly fine-tuning and adjusting my opinions of Thais, their culture and their lives based on always learning something new, experiencing something new and realizing that understanding Thai or any culture is an ongoing process. Personally, I've often been accused on here of contradicting myself because at various times, I've expressed dissimilar views on the exact same topic. That's because I've probably learned something new that caused me to re-evaluate my opinion. There are no absolutes and declarative statements, such as we've seen from Dan7373 are at the very least misleading and at the extreme completely wrong.

Retired Army

05-24-08, 07:41

)

And, BTW. I've lived here going on 12 years, have dated women from just about every corner of the country, from every strata of society and I'm still discovering new things all the time about the country and it's people.

Ain't this the truth? Just about the time I think I have the Thais figured out they take a 180 degree turn. As a Farang you can only begin to scratch the surface and there are many, many layers beneath.

Terry Terrier

05-24-08, 07:43

on the pattaya thread, we have bill miami talking about treating obvious hookers with respect and reaping the rewards for essentially treating them like non-p4p. yet, here we have dan talking about the opposite: treating mostly non-p4p women like hos and them responding favourably because of hormones.

thai women are no different than women anywhere. discretion aside (i.e. whispering lewd suggestions quietly in their ears), thai women, wherever they are in the country are not going to appreciate being spoken to in this way. yes. some might respond positively, out of necessity. but, i doubt deep down that they feel happy about it.

one thing i particulary dislike are these guys who have only ever dated/married poor isaan farm girls and maybe even lived in an isaan village and somehow now think they are experts on thailand, thai culture and thai people. if they know anything, they only know something about poor isaan farm girls and life in a poor isaan farm village. that's all.

i am constantly fine-tuning and adjusting my opinions of thais, their culture and their lives based on always learning something new, experiencing something new and realizing that understanding thai or any culture is an ongoing process. personally, i've often been accused on here of contradicting myself because at various times, i've expressed dissimilar views on the exact same topic. that's because i've probably learned something new that caused me to re-evaluate my opinion. there are no absolutes and declarative statements, such as we've seen from dan7373 are at the very least misleading and at the extreme completely wrong.

**the faint noise of oth's hypocricy and bigotry scraping against the forum walls again**

LittleBigMan

05-24-08, 07:47

Meatman,

You are dead wrong! For over 20 years I have been getting deepthroated by SE Asian women, especially in China. A former mistress of a rich chinese diplomat in Hong Kong was casted off because she was too old. Lucky me I came to meet her in Hong Kong and became friends, she visited my hometown and stayed at my house and became my girlfriend for a few months. She had her motives and I had mines, and that was to screw and suck her 36's to death but she gave me a surprise of my life. One of the best 3 f--ks of my life and she deepthroated as there was no tomorrow, slowly all the way down to the end!

In Thailand, just the other day a regular lady I see on soi 6, because one of the best slow deepthroated BBBJ to your nuts and back up to the head service you can get for the money!

Meatman, in all due respect you just haven't found it yet! but don't give up hope!

LBM,

Terry Terrier

05-24-08, 07:51

Ain't this the truth? Just about the time I think I have the Thais figured out they take a 180 degree turn. As a Farang you can only begin to scratch the surface and there are many, many layers beneath.

Which is why you expats and expat-types should show a bit more humility on this forum and stop behaving like such know-it-alls.

Retired Army

05-24-08, 09:12

Which is why you expats and expat-types should show a bit more humility on this forum and stop behaving like such know-it-alls.

Well, we certainly don't know everything; but, we do know more than most visitors to Thailand. Notice I said most. Every now an then a real "expert" shows up and based on his five days in Pattaya (or some rice picking village near Udorn) now knows everything there is to know about Thailand and Thai women. I am married to a Thai and just about the time I think I have her figured out, she throws a curve ball at me that leaves me scratching my head wondering what just happend. Never a dull moment with the little lady.

Old Thai Hand

05-24-08, 12:46

**the faint noise of oth's hypocricy and bigotry scraping against the forum walls again**

oh come on! hardly.

Dan7373

05-25-08, 16:34

Very interesting! Does this apply to westerners too?

Do you mean that older farangs like me can whisper lewd suggestions into the ears of pretty young Thai waitresses or shop girls, including promises of money, and they will not feel insulted as long as the propositions are discrete?

In theory, yes this applies to westerners too. But in practice it's not so easy to do.

One thing is the language barrier. It's hard to whisper discreetly, when the lady has some difficulty understanding you. You'd have to be pretty forward and explicit about it in order to avoid confusion. And that may embarrass the girl.

Another thing. This works well only with unattached ladies who don't have a boyfriend or a husband. Which means that you have to get to know the lady first and find out about her relationship status. Whispering into the ears of women who already have men is not going to get you anywhere in most cases. Although in Thailand, even some married women do some hooking on the side.

A third thing. Not every unattached lady is equally experienced. Some ladies need more persuasion than others. Which means that you may succeed only when you are persistent with the lady on several occasions and don't give up easily.

And finally. Whispering to the unattached lady is not always the best way to persuade her. Giving the lady excessively large tips or buying her expensive gifts will make her feel indebted to you, if she accepts these from you. It's harder for the lady to say 'no', when you pay her in advance and hold out the promise of paying her more.

Dan7373

05-25-08, 16:42

You may be tying to be more provocative than informative with statements like this but have you ever tried the technique you mentioned and did it worked for you or is it that only Thai men can accomplish the feat of treating women like hookers?

I've spent some time away from tourist places, alone among Thais. And I've had more than enough opportunities to observe and ask questions about the behaviour of Thai people around me. My Thai lady, who was from that community, was the one who explained to me what was going on.

I don't think foreigners in Thailand can copy the local culture and behave just the locals do. It's not that easy. Foreigners don't know enough of the local ways to be subtle and discreet. And that which works for Thai men is not going to work for foreigners.

Dan7373

05-25-08, 16:53

....
I am constantly fine-tuning and adjusting my opinions of Thais, their culture and their lives based on always learning something new, experiencing something new and realizing that understanding Thai or any culture is an ongoing process....

No matter how much you try, your view of Thai life is always going to be through the lens and the filter of your own culture. If you really want to know what's going on. Then ask the local people who trust you and whom you trust. They are a part of what's going on. And they know better than anyone else why they behave the way they do.

Ask the local people is what I have done. And that's why my understanding of what's going on in Thailand is so different from yours.

Run Mann

05-25-08, 17:30

Foreigners don't know enough of the local ways to be subtle and discreet. And that which works for Thai men is not going to work for foreigners.

If nothing else I got a good chuckle out of your last few post because while I am definitely not convinced with your presentation, it was entertaining. Perhaps you can write a book on how to conquer Thai women but be sure to run for the hills because someone is bound to hurt you for being a purveyor of spurious logic.

Retired Army

05-25-08, 18:59

I don't think foreigners in Thailand can copy the local culture and behave just the locals do. It's not that easy. Foreigners don't know enough of the local ways to be subtle and discreet. And that which works for Thai men is not going to work for foreigners.

Yeah, but being sensitive and respectable of Thais and Thai culture works wonders.

Dan7373

05-25-08, 19:22

If nothing else I got a good chuckle out of your last few post because while I am definitely not convinced with your presentation, it was entertaining. Perhaps you can write a book on how to conquer Thai women but be sure to run for the hills because someone is bound to hurt you for being a purveyor of spurious logic.

Such a book would be best written by a Thai man who has had a lot of relevant experiences.

I was curious enough to find out what was going on from the local people. But the knowledge I've gained didn't make me good at seducing the women.

It's just like watching someone ride a motorbike and knowing how people do it will not make you a good motorbike rider. And such abstract knowledge will not qualify you to write an instructional book about it.

Old Thai Hand

05-26-08, 03:09

Ask the local people is what I have done. And that's why my understanding of what's going on in Thailand is so different from yours.

Different from mine? Absolutely! Because you don't even live here! By your own admission you've only spent some time with the locals - but trust me, always as an outsider and always as a visitor. I live with my Thai/Isaan GF 24/7. I know her family and friends. I work with and interact with Thais and have done so for almost 12 years. For the first 2 1/2 years here I lived in a Thai-only working-class/middle-class community in Bangkok which was actually quite diverse as it was made up of not only Buddhists but Muslims. After that, I lived in a Thai-Chinese neighbourhood in Hua Hin for 4 years, then back among Thais in Bangkok, after that. I deal with Thais close-up and personal every day. And, yet, I'm only partially privy to the deep, inner workings of Thai people.

I'm curious. When you gathered all your in-depth information from the locals in order to form your declarative views, did you do it in English, Thai, or Isaan? If you don't speak the lingo, you never can begin to know much about what people are actually thinking.

I'm sticking to my opinion that you have a very narrow view of a very small part of Thailand and are not really in a position to comment beyond that.

Dan7373

05-26-08, 17:12

.... I deal with Thais close-up and personal every day. And, yet, I'm only partially privy to the deep, inner workings of Thai people....

Most Thai people try to put on a good appearance. And about private things like sex and P4P ladies in their community they don't talk much even with each other. And I'm not surprised that you have yet much to find out about what's going on there despite living in the community for 12 years.

The reason why I've been able to find out so much more about P4P activity in the community where I've visited and stayed many times is because I had a P4P lady as my confidant and guide. She worked as a P4P lady for a number of years. She knew many other P4P ladies in the area where we stayed. And she didn't mind sharing her knowledge of her community with me. Because she knew of my good attitude towards P4P. I told her a number of times that it takes two to have P4P sex. And I wasn't any better or worse than was she or any of her P4P lady friends.

Also, due to my poor knowledge of Thai language. She knew that her secrets were safe with me. I couldn't tell anyone there even if I wanted to because very few people there could speak English.

Perhaps even some Thai people are not fully aware of what's going on in their community in terms of P4P sex. After all, they are discreet and circumspect about it. Which means that people often find out about it only on the need to know basis.

The young unattached ladies probably know about it because of the lewd suggestions and the offers they get from the horny men. And the horny men of course know about it too. Because they are the ones who keep this whole P4P thing going. But everybody else may be just as ignorant about it as you are.

But just because something is hidden in the community doesn't mean that it isn't real, or that it doesn't exist.

Retired Army

05-26-08, 18:41

And I'm not surprised that you have yet much to find out about what's going on there despite living in the community for 12 years.

The reason why I've been able to find out so much more about P4P activity in the community where I've visited and stayed many times is because I had a P4P lady as my confidant and guide.

Also, due to my poor knowledge of Thai language. She knew that her secrets were safe with me. I couldn't tell anyone there even if I wanted to because very few people there could speak English.

Perhaps even some Thai people are not fully aware of what's going on in their community in terms of P4P sex.

But just because something is hidden in the community doesn't mean that it isn't real, or that it doesn't exist.

OTH, you must now bow to the master. Dan7373 has cracked the code on Thailand and Thai women and society. And, all this while on vacation in some rice picking village in Issan with a P4P girl. My hats off to him, and OTH... you might as well hang it up buddy, your days are numbered. You are about to be out classed by a real Thai expert.

I am humbled by Dan's posts. Being married to a Thai myself, and having traveled all over Thailand with her and visiting her friends and family, I still haven't a clue about what really goes on in Thailand and have just accepted that's the way it is and is always going to be.

Neufie

05-26-08, 19:39

I deal with Thais close-up and personal every day. And, yet, I'm only partially privy to the deep, inner workings of Thai people.

I'm curious. When you gathered all your in-depth information from the locals in order to form your declarative views, did you do it in English, Thai, or Isaan? If you don't speak the lingo, you never can begin to know much about what people are actually thinking.

I'm sticking to my opinion that you have a very narrow view of a very small part of Thailand and are not really in a position to comment beyond that.[/QUOTE]I would add the it is very rare to find a lad that can drop his own and absorb the new correctly. Doesen't happen. So what OTH says is not only correct, but makes sense in my practical application. On ?, I say, without language and help with context, real life usage/ Thai usage; it is almost not possible to integrate - relate is the best that I can see possible.

Best Regards,

Neufie

Dan7373

05-26-08, 20:55

OTH, you must now bow to the master. Dan7373 has cracked the code on Thailand and Thai women and society. And, all this while on vacation in some rice picking village in Issan with a P4P girl. My hats off to him, and OTH... you might as well hang it up buddy, your days are numbered. You are about to be out classed by a real Thai expert.

I am humbled by Dan's posts. Being married to a Thai myself, and having traveled all over Thailand with her and visiting her friends and family, I still haven't a clue about what really goes on in Thailand and have just accepted that's the way it is and is always going to be.

Perhaps there are many different realities in Thailand. And you get to experience only some of them, depending on your social status and connections with the local people.

Just because your experiences have been different from mine doesn't necessarily mean that one of us must be lying. Both of us are probably right. And the reason for the difference is that we've experienced different parts and different aspects of the same Thai society.

Retired Army

05-26-08, 21:08

Perhaps there are many different realities in Thailand. And you get to experience only some of them, depending on your social status and connections with the local people.

Just because your experiences have been different from mine doesn't necessarily mean that one of us must be lying. Both of us are probably right. And the reason for the difference is that we've experienced different parts and different aspects of the same Thai society.

No one ever accused you of lying, just not having a clue what you are talking about. As a Farang, even if you came to Thailand the day after you were born and live here your entire life, you still aren't going to know Thailand the same as a Thai native. What I am saying is that you might think you know Thailand, Thai women and culture, but you don't, because you can't. A perfect example is the Indian community. Some of then have lived here for generations and they aren't included or considered Thai. I first came to Thailand in 1973 and have live here for a total of seven years since that time. I am married to a Thai and I don't know squat about Thais. Just when I think I do, I am proven wrong.

Ozirob

05-26-08, 22:58

So everyone is agreed, then. We only know what we know.

Dan7373

05-26-08, 23:15

No one ever accused you of lying, just not having a clue what you are talking about. As a Farang, even if you came to Thailand the day after you were born and live here your entire life, you still aren't going to know Thailand the same as a Thai native....

Perhaps you have forgotten that I don't claim to have more or better experience of Thai society than other people in this forum have.

I simply trust the information and the explanations my P4P lady gave me about her community where she has lived most of her life. And I trust her expertise in this matter a lot more than I trust yours or that of other farangs. Because she is from Thailand. And you are not. And she knows a lot about the P4P scene in Thailand from her own life experiences and from the friends she keeps.

I don't want to get personal about this. But it sounds to me like you claim to be a better expert on Thai sociey than someone who was born there and who intimately knows her community. Which is ludicrous.

Opebo

05-27-08, 04:44

In Thailand, like everywhere else, one may appear preternaturally knowledgable by simply assuming the worst about people.

Retired Army

05-27-08, 06:32

Perhaps you have forgotten that I don't claim to have more or better experience of Thai society than other people in this forum have.

I simply trust the information and the explanations my P4P lady gave me about her community where she has lived most of her life. And I trust her expertise in this matter a lot more than I trust yours or that of other farangs. Because she is from Thailand. And you are not. And she knows a lot about the P4P scene in Thailand from her own life experiences and from the friends she keeps.

I don't want to get personal about this. But it sounds to me like you claim to be a better expert on Thai sociey than someone who was born there and who intimately knows her community. Which is ludicrous.

There is no way I could know more about Thai culture than a Thai. What you know is what she tells you. But, to be more correct, you know what she wants you to know. And that may, or may not, be the truth. A lot of P4P girls have a warped sense of reality.

Dan7373

05-27-08, 17:49

In Thailand, like everywhere else, one may appear preternaturally knowledgable by simply assuming the worst about people.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'assuming the worst about people'. Sure, there is a lot of P4P going on in Thailand. But who is to say that this is bad?

If the Thai people are satisfied to live the way they do. Then who are we to judge their way of life?

The plentiful availability of P4P ladies in Thailand is actually what attracted me to Thailand in the first place. For me this is the best Thailand has to offer.

Retired Army

05-28-08, 06:45

The plentiful availability of P4P ladies in Thailand is actually what attracted me to Thailand in the first place. For me this is the best Thailand has to offer.

Then I truly feel sorry for you. Thailand has so much to offer and P4P is just a small part. And unfortunately, not the best part of Thailand or Thai society.

Aslan

05-28-08, 06:53

i just got back home from a trip to the los and had a hell of a time. i've been quite a few times now and dated a thai university grad for a few years that i met in the states and considered marrying. just this past week while sitting in the biergarten on soi 7 at one of the side tables and having a bite to eat i caught a look at this beautiful young lady sitting across the bar. most of the girls will look at you and smile and nod their head or make some flirting gesture, but this one just looked away and then back again in a little bit. after i finished eating i walked over and talked to her and she said she thought i was looking at another lady. we went upstairs and played pool for a little bit and then over to gullivers for a few games. i'm terrible at the game, but she was pretty good. when it was time to say goodbye we talked about going back together. i liked the way she carried herself and sense of humor so i took her back. i see some real assholes dealing with women in these places and i believe in showing them respect until they give me reason not to. we're all *****s in our own way. some girls are gfe and some are just about getting down to business. we hung around and talked for a little while before and after and she left. great experience i thought and i'm off to samui for a week. next night i'm in bangkok i see her at absolute bar while listening to some chick singing like tina turner. she's with a farang and he's dancing all over her. she sees me and a little while later comes over to talk to me. we head upstairs and she kills me at pool again and we end up at the hotel. all night. great experience and she gives me her number. she tells me she's happy i chose her again instead of taking another lady. we talk about meeting the next evening for a movie so she shows up at my hotel at 6pm as planned (shocking) and we're off to ekkamai to eat at some place where you order all sorts of things and cook them on the table as a soup. we're joking around and she's being really sweet. doing things like filling my soup bowl first, pouring water, and showing me how the whole restaurant thing works which you don't find in the states generally. old world feminity. it isn't that i want someone to serve me, but i found a certain grace and politeness in her actions as i do in opening the door for a woman, giving her my coat, or helping her out of a vehicle. even at the hotel she would fold my clothes and offered to take them home and wash them for me because she had a place she could wash them cheap though i declined the offer. we went to the movies and were holding hands. she gives me the thai kiss from time to time. after finding out the newest indiana jones wasn't that great we head back to my hotel. all night. i put money under her purse for when she is ready to leave the next morning she says i don't have to give her money and gives it back to me. i put it in her purse when she's not looking and she's on her way. next evening i don't see her at the biergarten so i give her a call to say hello. she's with her sister in the room and says she doesn't go to the biergarten every day. the following evening i give her a call because she's not there again and we meet up. she says she didn't want to interrupt me the night before because she thought i might want to have a different lady so she didn't want ask to meet me. she gives me the i'm a thai lady and we do not ask the man to do this or that. we spend the next few days together and i really enjoy her company. she's 28, but not jaded like she's been a bar girl since she was 18. her english is pretty good, but not great and not the same bar girl english you find so much of. i speak a little thai so we worked it out. said she used to work in some big hotel in bangkok. no children. never married. says she just started coming to the bar a few weeks prior to meeting me and stays with her sister who is married to an american. she says she's not a bar girl. says she's going to open a store in petchabun and is making money for it. she didn't talk to any of the other girls at the bar because she said she didn't know anyone there. she wasn't really modest which i was a little confused by. my old girlfriend would get naked in the sack, but would cover up after a shower and when changing or laying around. this girl would [CodeWord134] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134) and clean up with me in the same room while i was taking a shower like we were married or something. she walked around naked like it was just a natural thing to do. she was very clean and dressed modestly. she didn't kiss on the mouth, didn't do oral which i didn't press, and wasn't mechanical about sex. i kind of feel like a dumbass writing this. she's a bar girl right? i'm a bit cynical from knowing some other ladies. thing is, i really hated leaving and wished i could have spent more time with her. i can't tell about this one, but i would like to see her again.

Opebo

05-28-08, 07:16

I'm not sure what you mean by 'assuming the worst about people'. Sure, there is a lot of P4P going on in Thailand. But who is to say that this is bad?

The plentiful availability of P4P ladies in Thailand is actually what attracted me to Thailand in the first place. For me this is the best Thailand has to offer.

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I did not mean to imply there is anything 'bad' about P4P. I also agree it is the best Thailand has to offer, by far. Certainly it is the only reason I came here, other than the cheapness.

I only meant that in general assuming the worst about people anywhere in the world is the most accurate.

M P Lurker

05-30-08, 12:32

....this girl would [CodeWord134] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134) and clean up with me in the same room while i was taking a shower like we were married or something. she walked around naked like it was just a natural thing to do. she was very clean and dressed modestly. she didn't kiss on the mouth, didn't do oral which i didn't press, and wasn't mechanical about sex. i kind of feel like a dumbass writing this. she's a bar girl right? i'm a bit cynical from knowing some other ladies. thing is, i really hated leaving and wished i could have spent more time with her. i can't tell about this one, but i would like to see her again.
well she may not have technically been a bar girl previously but she does seem a bit forward. could have previously worked in massage or done occassional free-lance work, or anything that gets her used to be being seen naked. its quite possible that she stretches the truth.

you can't really judge anyone by what they say. how they act gives more clues.

Old Thai Hand

05-30-08, 13:28

Most Thai people try to put on a good appearance. And about private things like sex and P4P ladies in their community they don't talk much even with each other. And I'm not surprised that you have yet much to find out about what's going on there despite living in the community for 12 years.

Well, this is where you're wrong. I listen to what the Thais are saying, not what they tell me (in English). By your own admission, you only know P4P, a decidedly narrow segment of the culture.

The reason why I've been able to find out so much more about P4P activity in the community where I've visited and stayed many times is because I had a P4P lady as my confidant and guide.

OK. So, you're an expert on P4P activity in your community. This is atypical knowledge, which give little insight into anything but P4P.

Also, due to my poor knowledge of Thai language.

This says it all. BTW, it's very unlikely that the people around you in your P4P girl's community are speaking Thai. They're probably speaking Isaan, unless you're in Buriram or Surin, in which case they may be speaking Khmer.

The young unattached ladies probably know about it because of the lewd suggestions and the offers they get from the horny men. And the horny men of course know about it too. Because they are the ones who keep this whole P4P thing going. But everybody else may be just as ignorant about it as you are.

What about the majority of women who are not in P4P, in any way? They get propositioned all the time by low-life Thai lizards and are not pre-disposed to fall for it because they know these guys are usually a dead-end.

You also said in one of your earlier posts something to the effect that a Farang couldn't possibly sweet-talk a TG like a Thai man could. This is rubbish. If you know the lingo and more importantly the nuances of tone and pronounciation, it's quite easy to actually get further with them because at least most Farang represent possibilities to a lot of both P4P and certain types of non-P4P TGs.

I actually "sweet-talked" an Isaan girl last night and she went all giggly and shy on me and thought I was so cute for what I said. It wasn't really the words, so much, but the way they were said and the fact that it was a 'Bakseeda' บักสีดา (Farang) speaking Isaan. TGs love it when a Farang speaks their lingo.

Here's a simple phrase for you to try out.

Jao seu ee-nyang ja. Jao pen na hak ih-lee der. เจ้าซื่อหยัง เจ้าเป็นน่าฮักอิหลีเด้อ

Ask your P4P girl to translate it for you.

Gangles

05-30-08, 13:32

I have been reading the last few posts, and I thought that I would add a few comments to the discussion.

Firstly, about the statements that there is plenty of P4P in Thailand. This is partly true, but there is far more in the US, and Australia and other western countries. There are more prostitutes per head of population in Australia than in any asian country. You can get any kind of sex, any time, men, women, boys, girls. Prostitution is openly advertised in the local newspapers, brothels are legal. So it is important to get the facts right to put things into correct perspective.

Secondly, I have a Thai gf who had never been into a bar before I took her. She had very little sex with her husband before she divorced. Since we have been together, she has blossomed, knows that there are no limits on what she can do, loves to be naked, loves sex, now that she has found that she can get so much pleasure and satisfaction from sex. In public, she is still shy, and I respect her for that.

I do not believe that all Thai women just want money and the visa. My gf certainly has never asked for either. Except that I have asked her to take a massage course, and I have paid for it, likewise, I am funding her through her English classes. She has a regular job, is looking at setting up a business, and her family is pretty well off middle classs.

Gangles

Retired Army

05-30-08, 16:06

Aslan

05-31-08, 07:21

Well she may not have technically been a bar girl previously but she does seem a bit forward. Could have previously worked in massage or done occassional free-lance work, or anything that gets her used to be being seen naked. Its quite possible that she stretches the truth.

You can't really judge anyone by what they say. How they act gives more clues.She's 28 and did mention that she had a boyfriend before. I'm sure has been seen naked a few times before me. I wouldn't expect her to be a virgin, but I really don't believe she's been in the bar business long from the way she acted. I'm in my mid 30's, am in great shape, and have a pretty good sense of humor. If she wasn't into it she gave me the greatest gf experience ever without he expectation of getting paid. Since my last post she sent me an email in Thai that said she didn't want me to give her money because she didn't want me to see her as a bargirl and that she appreciated the time we spent together, and the things I did for her.

I don't usually go out looking for a girl and am particular about taking someone back to the room with me for a number of reasons. Many times I will go to the Biergarten just to chat and be around other farang. I also refuse to believe that bar girls are all bad people only out to cheat you. I've met girls that say they don't go with some farang they've built a rapport with because it ruins their friendship. They have reason for doing what they do. I feel like a wh*** working myself most of the time. I just use my brain instead of my dick to work.

Anyone have experiences with really cool girls that work in a bar?

Member #3428

05-31-08, 19:28

Anyone have experiences with really cool girls that work in a bar?

Of course we do, probably most of us who ever go to LOS end up with numbers of girls we get to know more then just a quick screw. But many of those girls have many guys like us that they "get to know" on a more personal level. I would estimate majority of us have found a few "keepers" out there that we frequent back to often. Those of us that travel to LOS a lot or live there. And many of us have found TGF's. Some of who are ex P4P.

Building a relationship / friendship is fine and it makes your time more enjoyable. But to make a real long term relationship work is hard. Can you take that she screwed for money? Can you trust her to not screw any more? Are you willing to move to Thai and / or support her financially? TRUST is the big issue here and you have to take into account cultural differences. You probably don't know much about Thai culture and she probably doesn't know much about your culture. I would say that TRUST is the biggest obstacle that you will face if you want a relationship. Many long term LOS guys still don't understand Thai Women and the Culture and you might think one thing when she is thinking another thing.

Just be aware... many girls are experts at trying to land the big fish. They will give up 1 K baht / 2 K baht / 3 K baht or whatever you pay her for a night of sex to try to go for the long haul. Plus you will feel guilty that you not pay her so maybe you spend more on shopping or buy her gold etc... Or maybe she ask for payment in other forms or ways like shopping etc... Remember, we all pay for sex one way or another. You say she thanked you for the things you did for her... which could be many things but if it was shopping then you could have overpaid her normal price just by your shopping. Some ladies won't come out and ask for shopping but they expect it, some girls won't come out and ask for money, but they expect it, etc....

I'm not trying to preach to you, I take good care of my TGF, but it took a long time to develop our relationship and we still are on shaky ground sometimes, we did not jump into relationship over night and she has had to prove and work on things just like I did too. I still have some Gik's on the side that I talk with and see every now and then and I do like to go out ever so often but it is getting harder and harder to get away from the TGF and have to be careful. Unfortunately I am known in certain places and many places know the TGF so even if I am out shopping she can hear reports about me. So who's a bigger wh***? I am of course.

Just don't invest too much, money or feelings, right off the bat. Thai girls can smell and sense weakness and vulnerability in guys a mile away and some will exploit that to the hilt. If you meet her in a P4P place, and you partake in P4P, expect that she is P4P. Not saying they are bad people at all, some real sweet and nice ladies out there are P4P and I think they deserve to be treated like human beings and not like some piece of property. There are some real winners out there in P4P in terms of personality and if you read through this board you'll hear stories of how some P4P girls took care of guys who are sick or showed them around town or gave them money when their wallets were stolen etc.... Just because they are P4P does not mean they are bad people at all. But the other side of the coin is that some P4P ladies are just out to roll you. So it's a coin toss my friend.. did you get lucky or are you getting taken? No one can answer that until it is maybe too late for you and only you can decide your own fate.

So enjoy her, as a friend. If you develop more over time then good for you. Just be on guard at all times until you can build up the trust level.

Just my limited knowledge lack of common sense I'm a dumbass too point of view.... :) And to think.. in two weeks I'll be taken care of by my TGF but I also know that she has a shopping list already waiting for me. But it's a price I am willing, able, and happy to pay, it's my choice.

Aslan

05-31-08, 23:53

Of course we do, probably most of us who ever go to LOS end up with numbers of girls we get to know more then just a quick screw. But many of those girls have many guys like us that they "get to know" on a more personal level. I would estimate majority of us have found a few "keepers" out there that we frequent back to often. Those of us that travel to LOS a lot or live there. And many of us have found TGF's. Some of who are ex P4P.

Building a relationship / friendship is fine and it makes your time more enjoyable. But to make a real long term relationship work is hard. Can you take that she screwed for money? Can you trust her to not screw any more? Are you willing to move to Thai and / or support her financially? TRUST is the big issue here and you have to take into account cultural differences. You probably don't know much about Thai culture and she probably doesn't know much about your culture. I would say that TRUST is the biggest obstacle that you will face if you want a relationship. Many long term LOS guys still don't understand Thai Women and the Culture and you might think one thing when she is thinking another thing.

Just be aware... many girls are experts at trying to land the big fish. They will give up 1 K baht / 2 K baht / 3 K baht or whatever you pay her for a night of sex to try to go for the long haul. Plus you will feel guilty that you not pay her so maybe you spend more on shopping or buy her gold etc... Or maybe she ask for payment in other forms or ways like shopping etc... Remember, we all pay for sex one way or another. You say she thanked you for the things you did for her... which could be many things but if it was shopping then you could have overpaid her normal price just by your shopping. Some ladies won't come out and ask for shopping but they expect it, some girls won't come out and ask for money, but they expect it, etc....

I'm not trying to preach to you, I take good care of my TGF, but it took a long time to develop our relationship and we still are on shaky ground sometimes, we did not jump into relationship over night and she has had to prove and work on things just like I did too. I still have some Gik's on the side that I talk with and see every now and then and I do like to go out ever so often but it is getting harder and harder to get away from the TGF and have to be careful. Unfortunately I am known in certain places and many places know the TGF so even if I am out shopping she can hear reports about me. So who's a bigger wh***? I am of course.

Just don't invest too much, money or feelings, right off the bat. Thai girls can smell and sense weakness and vulnerability in guys a mile away and some will exploit that to the hilt. If you meet her in a P4P place, and you partake in P4P, expect that she is P4P. Not saying they are bad people at all, some real sweet and nice ladies out there are P4P and I think they deserve to be treated like human beings and not like some piece of property. There are some real winners out there in P4P in terms of personality and if you read through this board you'll hear stories of how some P4P girls took care of guys who are sick or showed them around town or gave them money when their wallets were stolen etc.... Just because they are P4P does not mean they are bad people at all. But the other side of the coin is that some P4P ladies are just out to roll you. So it's a coin toss my friend.. did you get lucky or are you getting taken? No one can answer that until it is maybe too late for you and only you can decide your own fate.

So enjoy her, as a friend. If you develop more over time then good for you. Just be on guard at all times until you can build up the trust level.

Just my limited knowledge lack of common sense I'm a dumbass too point of view.... :) And to think.. in two weeks I'll be taken care of by my TGF but I also know that she has a shopping list already waiting for me. But it's a price I am willing, able, and happy to pay, it's my choice.I understand what you are saying and agree. I dated a thai univ. Grad that I met in the states at a temple while she was teaching thai culture and I've been over several times to see her. Been going to Thailand for about 7 years now and I've met my share of bar girls. On my first trip after my divorce I was like. I want that one and that one and that one, but now I don't take girls away from the bar very much. I also don't spend much money on them as far as shopping is concerned. Dinner and a movie is one thing, but buying them all sorts of things isn't a good idea in my opinion. I do treat them with respect and honesty. In a way I feel bad that they put themselves in danger for money and some get hooked. This may be a decision they make for themselves, but I often wonder what motivates them and recognize that these girls wouldn't give most of us the time of day if they had the same economic advantages that I enjoy. Some I've met are just stunning and are pretty sharp too.

LittleBigMan

06-01-08, 04:56

Asian,

Your story and feelings after your last trip is so common. The line and game she is playing I heard so many times I could get rich on that line itself. The last time it happen to my friend who after two years and a 1 million baht later realized that he got took when all his friends told him to " watch out " he met her in Pattaya 2 years ago and her line was I just broke up with my husband so I decided to go it on my own and try to work in the Beer Bar, this is my first night ever. On the first night he got the same love treatment as you did!

Stay friends and move on!

LBM

Retired Army

06-01-08, 07:31

It it flies, floats or Fvcks; Rent it!

Also, are you sure about the age of your "friend." A Thai girl who says they are 28 may well be 38.

RA

Old Thai Hand

06-01-08, 14:35

This board seems to have been overrun with bleeding hearts, over the last while filling the board full of tear jerk stories about P4P girls.

While I thought he was often a bit too extreme, bordering on being a mysogynist, I can only wish that Samus Aran was around to slap all these soft-hearted, white knights straight.

It's a very well-worn cliche, but obviously bears repeating. "You can take the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl".

Guys who form any sort of relationship with these girls beyond the prescribed business exchange are idiots and losers, not to mention setting themselves up for a major disaster.

We've recently been subjected to the all-knowing posts of the likes of Dan7373 who supposedly gleaned his deep insight into Thai culture on his many visits, through intimate, truthful exchanges with his P4P GF. This is laughable, to say the least. "Truthfulness" coupled with a P4P girl is an oxymoron.

There have also been many others wringing their hands in visible angst over the dilemma they face because of some emotional involvement with one P4P girl or another.

The operative word in P4P is "play". That's all it is. These girls are simply not worth anything more than this. They're human beings, so treat them with respect. But, beyond that, don't make the mistake of thinking any sort of normal relationship is possible.

FFF, FFF, FFF, FFF!

Aslan

06-02-08, 02:36

R A

I can be no more sure of anything she told me than she can be sure of anything I told her. We're basically on the same level as far as trust is concerned. Bar girls probably assume the worst about farang and it seems most farang here think the worst about them. I don't talk to people and assume they are lying and look for their flaws. These are human beings we're talking about. They are all someone's daughter, sister, and possibly mother and I believe they deserve respect until they prove me wrong. I have no problem with prostitution if one chooses that line of work and only cares about making money, but some of these girls have few choices in life. I grew up to a single mother of two children and my father was never in the picture. My mother worked very hard and made many sacrifices to survive and did the best she could. I'm not out to save anyone. If I wanted to do that I'd be a missionary.

Aslan, 11 Mike, Ft Stewart, Ga

Old Thai Hand

I don't need anyone to slap me straight and expected quite a bit of negativity from some of these pathetic, heartless, know-it-all assholes on this board when I posted this.

NicFrenchy

06-02-08, 03:54

Retired Army

06-02-08, 05:19

Aslan, 11 Mike, Ft Stewart, Ga

Retired Army, 11B, Phu Bai 1972, Udorn 1973, Ft. Benning, Ft. Bragg (JFK Special Warfare School) Ft. Bliss, Fort Ord, Camp Casey 2 ID, etc, etc, etc...

Old Thai Hand

06-02-08, 06:29

Old Thai Hand

I don't need anyone to slap me straight and expected quite a bit of negativity from some of these pathetic, heartless, know-it-all assholes on this board when I posted this.

Well, aren't we touchy? I didn't specifically mention you. I was talking in general terms about many many posts over a long period of time.

Anyway, I'm not heartless, just a realist. Nobody's saying the girls aren't human, nor that they should not be treated well. It's also true that they don't have many choices. But, they do have some. For every P4P girl with a sob story, who has taken the easy way out, there are probably 100 of equal economic and social standing, with the same sad life, who value their personal integrity above quick money and opt to work for considerably less in socially acceptable jobs, in order to not violate their cultural traditions.

The other fact is that few deny that "the life" permanently and irretrievably screws them up, so that they aren't really capable of functioning anywhere but in P4P. Few of them can ever lead normal lives again. I often see girls I knew a dozen years ago, when their were new to the game, in the first bloom of youth, who, now well past their due date are still trolling the scene because they really don't have any other options. Almost all of them look well-worn and years older than they actually are.

A lot of these girls are just plain lazy. I'll give you an example and it's not an uncommon story.

Many years ago, when I was first here, I followed the well worn path and found a GF in a bar on Soi Cowboy. She was, (to use many of the types of descriptions one often sees on here) smart, atypical, not hardened by the life, funny, a GFE etc. etc. She had a sad story, which I won't bother to tell.

She came to live with me, I helped her finish high school and then got her a job as a receptionist/secretary in my university's front office at a good salary for such a job; 10,000/month. I matched her salary, so she had 20,000/month. She lasted a year and then quit, because she didn't like the 9-5 routine. We split up. She lived on some savings and when those ran out she got a job as a waitress on soi 33 for only 7,000/month and eventually ended up back in a bar in Pattaya: full circle after 5 years. She landed another Farang whom she married after knowing him 2 months. I don't know what happened to her after that. But, I wouldn't be surprised if the marriage didn't work out and she's sitting on some bar-stool in Pattaya waiting for the next one to come along.

She had it all, but blew it because she was lazy and had no discipline. It's an all too common story. So, I have very little if any sympathy for any of these girls.

AsiaTraveler2

06-02-08, 06:57

<cut>
Anyway, I'm not heartless, just a realist. Nobody's saying the girls aren't human, nor that they should not be treated well. It's also true that they don't have many choices. But, they do have some. For every P4P girl with a sob story, who has taken the easy way out, there are probably 100 of equal economic and social standing, with the same sad life, who value their personal integrity above quick money and opt to work for considerably less in socially acceptable jobs, in order to not violate their cultural traditions.
<cut>

This is a very valid point. They do have an option. Not an easy one, but an option. You see many many girls, working as waitresses, maids, receptionists, hair stylists, etc. who choose to work for less for the right reasons and often for the good of their long term outlook.

AT2

Member #3428

06-02-08, 07:08

This is a very valid point. They do have an option.

OTH is correct however that many of them are lazy. Maybe I won't go as far as say they are lazy (atleast not all of them) but once they see they can make 40 - 80 K a month it is hard for them to accept to work for 7 K a month. Even getting a girl to live on 15,000 baht a month is hard to do if you take her out of a bar and that is close to double what the uneducated and unskilled labor earns (I think unskilled is maybe 7,000 a month).

They have an option, not an attractive option espeically if they have family depending on them for support and they have already offered the support. How are they to tell family that they can't send XXX baht a month anymore as they are getting a different job. And most of them have no marketable skills that they can't even come close to getting what OTH gave that girl.

Yes they all have options, but it's not always that simple. Especially once they get into it for a while.

AsiaTraveler2

06-02-08, 07:37

OTH is correct however that many of them are lazy. Maybe I won't go as far as say they are lazy (atleast not all of them) but once they see they can make 40 - 80 K a month it is hard for them to accept to work for 7 K a month. Even getting a girl to live on 15,000 baht a month is hard to do if you take her out of a bar and that is close to double what the uneducated and unskilled labor earns (I think unskilled is maybe 7,000 a month).

They have an option, not an attractive option espeically if they have family depending on them for support and they have already offered the support. How are they to tell family that they can't send XXX baht a month anymore as they are getting a different job. And most of them have no marketable skills that they can't even come close to getting what OTH gave that girl.

Yes they all have options, but it's not always that simple. Especially once they get into it for a while.

We are probably on the same page. I too, don't agree that it's necessarily laziness. It's the disparity in earnings with the huge tradeoff of the girls "selling their soul", that makes it a very difficult decision. It's also a decision that often results in a a "no turning back" scenario.

AT2

Old Thai Hand

06-02-08, 09:55

It's the disparity in earnings with the huge tradeoff of the girls "selling their soul", that makes it a very difficult decision. It's also a decision that often results in a a "no turning back" scenario.AT2

I think that suggesting that these girls put thought into a "difficult decision" is quite a stretch. Thais don't think that much. What usually happens is that only seeing the short-term gains, the party life that many of them enjoy (drugs and drink play a huge part), the lack of responsibility without a thought for the future, many girls, far from desparate, but with little ambition just go this route. Sure there are those that are supporting their families. But, these tend to be older women and it's often because they have dead-beat Dads, brothers, ex-BFs/husbands who don't accept their financial responsibilities. Thai women, (at least Isaan women) are expected to carry the burden.

However, having said that there are large numbers of younger girls who are in it only for the easy money, which they spend largely on themselves.

Also, as for the types of opportunities I gave my ex...lots of these girls could do some of the same, even without help from a Farang. Even in a country as lopsided as Thailand, where the privileged get preferential treatment, they still have free education for 12 years, and students loans and scholarships for college and university.

Most of the P4P girls I've met dropped out of school by choice because they didn't want to study, not because they didn't have the opportunity to study. So, if they have limited options, they have themselves to blame to a certain extent.

However, as in all things there are exceptions. I mentioned once in a post about a girl I used to take out of Long Gun back in 1998. This girl was quite popular and very shrewd. She had a couple of guys online sending her money including one moron in Australia who sent her 65,000/month. She had a bank balance of 600,000 baht. When I met her she spoke almost no English. Within a year she had, quit the bar, studied English and enrolled in university. She eventually managed to get an MBA. She always told me she had a plan and purpose for working in the bar. But, she clearly is an exceptional case.

I stand by what I have said. Many of these girls (but, of course not all) are lazy, lack ambition and never think about the long term.

LittleBigMan

06-02-08, 10:24

Asian,

No one is being heartless, but if you didn't have reservations you wouldn't have opened your heart to tell us your story! to see what you would come up with. Just because the answers you have read isn't what you expected don't go away mad! Sometimes shock treatment is what we all need from time to time.
We here all (nearly) agree that they are human beings and regardless of their profession or where they came from they should still be treated with respect until they prove that they don't deserve it.

You came, you enjoyed and you want more of it like yaba! and you seem to have already made up your mine so come again and enjoy yourself with her but always with a bit of caution and watch your pocket book. If we are correct the call for help will not be far behind after your next trip! Sick snake, sick dog, sick cat... the call will come! If not then you might have found a gem and we were wrong but not often.

Good luck but enjoy yourself with a bit of caution.

LBM

Daddy07

06-02-08, 10:24

... Thais don't think that much. What usually happens is that only seeing the short-term gains, the party life that many of them enjoy (drugs and drink play a huge part), the lack of responsibility without a thought for the future, many girls, far from desparate, but with little ambition just go this route ... there are large numbers of younger girls who are in it only for the easy money, which they spend largely on themselves...

Let us all take a moment to humbly bow our heads in silent tribute to this wonderful state of affairs in the Land of Smiles. :)

Run Mann

06-02-08, 10:30

So much of this discussion is redundancy of many prior posts but not much appears to have changed. There are strong and weak points on both sides of the debate and in the end people will make their own choice because no one will likely make a decision based on what is posted here. Hookers and matrimony will generally not translate into solid unions but a man takes a chance when he enters into a relationship with a normal woman and 50 percent of the time those relationships with normal women will fail. Entering into a relationship with a hooker has higher incident of risk and failure. It’s a matter of how just how much you are willing to risk to reap your reward.

Terry Terrier

06-02-08, 23:25

For every P4P girl with a sob story, who has taken the easy way out, there are probably 100 of equal economic and social standing, with the same sad life, who value their personal integrity above quick money and opt to work for considerably less in socially acceptable jobs, in order to not violate their cultural traditions.

2,000,000 at one time. It remains the current estimate of the number of active prostitutes in the country.

By my understanding of statistics, that equates to about one-in-ten, not one-in-a-hundred. And that's before we make any adjustments for social demography. This is way too large a percentage to be passed off as layabouts and misfits.

Old Thai Hand

06-03-08, 03:11

By my understanding of statistics that equates to about one-in-ten, not one-in-a-hundred. And that's before we make any adjustments for social demography. This is way too large a percentage to be passed off as layabouts and misfits

My mistake. You're more or less correct in your calculations (it's supposedly around 7%). I don't know what the adult female population is. I only know that the total female popluation is somewhere around 38,000,000. Regardless of 7% or 10%, that still means that 90-93% of Thai women opt to try to survive by not taking the easy path.

I still stand by my opinion that they are mostly 'layabouts and misfits'. They are most certainly social pariahs within Thai culture. They don't deserve the deifying they sometimes get on this board.

Daddy07

06-03-08, 04:28

...They don't deserve the deifying they sometimes get on this board.

So true! I've found that dealing with them on a day to day basis definately requires a more or less hands on approach as opposed to the largely spiritual deification process they sometimes receive here.

Rubber Nursey

06-03-08, 05:39

She lasted a year and then quit, because she didn't like the 9-5 routine. She ...eventually ended up back in a bar in Pattaya: full circle after 5 years. She had it all, but blew it because she was lazy and had no discipline.

Within a year she had quit the bar, studied English and enrolled in university. She eventually managed to get an MBA. She always told me she had a plan and purpose for working in the bar.

OTH: Your measurement of success is based solely on their ability to leave the industry and do something 'worthwhile' with their lives. Why is it that people in other occupations are allowed to fritter away their cash and live for the moment, but hookers are expected to aim for something 'higher'? We praise others for longevity of service and increased earning potential, but only credit sex workers when they get out quick and find a low-paying, but respectable, job. That makes no sense to me.

I don't understand how choosing the highest paid job available to you, especially if it's something you enjoy doing, constitutes being 'lazy'. One of my mates, who used to run his own business in construction, recently left his labour-intensive, fulltime $70,000 job to join the mining boom up north. He now works two weeks on, two weeks off (ie. he works only six months a year), sits in a tin hut all day giving directions to trucks and earns over $150,000. How is this different to a woman choosing sex work over a minimum-wage waitressing job? Nobody is calling my mate lazy...even though he brags to all and sundry about the 'easy money' he's making. In fact, they're congratulating him on a shrewd business move. Go figure.

You need to remember that your comments on personal integrity and discipline are based on YOUR ideas of what's socially/sexually acceptable and what YOU consider to be a worthwhile career or lifestyle. The women you're judging may not view things the same way.

Old Thai Hand

06-03-08, 06:45

You need to remember that your comments on personal integrity and discipline are based on YOUR ideas of what's socially/sexually acceptable and what YOU consider to be a worthwhile career or lifestyle. The women you're judging may not view things the same way.

Despite your acknowledged work with Empower, I doubt you really know much about how Thai women think. You probably have some idea about how certain Thai hookers think. But, even there, I'm sure that those involved in Empower and therefore those to whom you've had access represent a very small number compared even to those in P4P, let alone the Thai female population at large.

I'm basing my opinion in large part on what is socially acceptable in Thailand, not my personal idea. I know what Thais think about hookers.

Of course, Thais are hypicritical because on the one hand Thai men perpetuate P4P, while at the same time the culture condemns it. But, such is the nature of things in Thailand.

Making the most money in the short term at the expense of one's long term respectability is not the wisest move, especially here. It's basically a dead-end. These girls have a very short shelf-life before they are completely used up. Then what? The spiral down is a quick one.

Anyway, this discussion has strayed off my original point which was that some posters on here need to stop being all soft and gooey about these girls and instead, stick to the mantra: "Find, Fuck and Forget".

It's a well-worn discussion, but bears repeating from time to time. It seems that every newbie who gets carried away with the whole scene and succumbs to the charms of one or another bargirl needs to understand the inevitable bad ending to any kind of emotional involvement.

There have been countless stories over the years of guys utterly destroyed both emotionally and financially by these girls.

But, then again, why should I care if somebody wants to ruin his life by getting involved with a P4P girl?

Rubber Nursey

06-03-08, 08:34

I'm basing my opinion in large part on what is socially acceptable in Thailand, not my personal idea. I know what Thais think about hookers.
I'm willing to bet they think the same thing ALL societies think of ALL hookers. Do you think I can write 'wh*re' on my resume?

What you said in your last few posts could apply to any hooker in any country. Check out any other thread on this board and you'll find the same conversation going on - hookers are lazy, hookers are greedy, hookers don't plan for their futures, you can take the girl out of the brothel but you can't take the brothel out of the girl, etc. What I want to know is WHY. Why is a woman who earns 10 times the average monthly wage 'taking the easy way out'? Why is it 'lazy' to choose hooking over waitressing or factory work (or marriage)? You didn't address any of my comments in your post.

I wasn't questioning your knowledge of Thai culture, but the terminology you used and your method of measuring a working girls' success in general. You wrote about a girl who 'had it all and blew it', by shunning education and 9-5 work and going back to the bar. YOU may feel that she 'had it all', but obviously SHE didn't, or she wouldn't have walked away from it, would she? All I'm saying is that your idea of 'having it all' might differ from hers. I know that I, personally, am much happier out there making my own money and my own decisions, than having a man support me financially. Maybe that particular girl was just happier working in a bar. Who are we to tell her she should be aiming higher than personal happiness?

OTH, I only ask you these questions because you're an intelligent man with an analytical mind. Your answers may come from a Thai perspective, but on subjects like this they can be applied across the board. If you don't want to answer to me, then by all means put me on ignore - but please don't play the 'You're not from Thailand' card every time I post on this thread. Contrary to popular belief, I don't live in some magical fairyland where sex workers are revered for their choice of occupation. I'm a wh*re...which means exactly the same thing in my country as it does in yours.

By the way... a comment on ex-hookers not being good girlfriend material. That's not always our fault. Often it's the *idea* of living with a sex work past, rather than the reality of it, that sabotages the relationship. Knowing your girlfriend used to work can trigger a whole lot of irrational fears and insecurities in men. If you can't look at your girlfriend without seeing a wh*re (and all the stereotypical crap that comes with it), the relationship is doomed. Unfortunately, I have very recent, first-hand experience in the damage a partner's over-active imagination can do. :(

Aslan

06-03-08, 12:26

I'm willing to bet they think the same thing ALL societies think of ALL hookers. Do you think I can write 'wh*re' on my resume?

What you said in your last few posts could apply to any hooker in any country. Check out any other thread on this board and you'll find the same conversation going on - hookers are lazy, hookers are greedy, hookers don't plan for their futures, you can take the girl out of the brothel but you can't take the brothel out of the girl, etc. What I want to know is WHY. Why is a woman who earns 10 times the average monthly wage 'taking the easy way out'? Why is it 'lazy' to choose hooking over waitressing or factory work (or marriage)? You didn't address any of my comments in your post.This is what I was talking about in my orig. Post. Who is to say this is the easy way out? How boring it must be to sit at a biergarten for 10 hours a day and wait for someone to take interest in you. Talking to man after man and being shot down many times. How is it the easy way to know you're probably end up with some overweight, unattractive farang that will want to do who knows what sexually to you? How is it easy to fear that they might hurt you physically. How is it easy to fear for your life and a std every time? How easy is it to explain this work to a potential boyfriend and move on? How easy is it to reconcile this line of work spiritually? How is it easy to know you have no marketable skills down the road.

This easy way out perception is, in my mind, the way mongers justify their view of prostitutes and disassociate themselves from any wrong doing. Doing this makes it easier not to think of them as human and to treat them with our own interests in mind. It makes us feel better about ourselves for our activity.

I believe many of the girls may do this a few times and become seduced by possibility. There is possibility of marrying a farang and having a better life. There is a possibility of using this line of work to your advantage financially and changing your future and that of those around you. I believe we are all *****s in a way. We all do things we don't like or agree with for money to a certain extent. There are few people who love their job so much they would be willing to take a pay cut. This is no different that some ambulance chasing lawyer having an ethical or moral problem with what he does and overlooking that for the reward.

Run Mann

06-03-08, 14:31

There have been countless stories over the years of guys utterly destroyed both emotionally and financially by these girls.?
True but there are stories of some girls being emotionally destroyed by Falangs too.

But, then again, why should I care if somebody wants to ruin his life by getting involved with a P4P girl?

You shouldn't, it’s his life, let him live it the way he chooses.

Opebo

06-03-08, 17:16

...OTH, I only ask you these questions because you're an intelligent man with an analytical mind.(

Oh my goodness. I think you may be a little off there, RN. But if you're looking for a font of bigotry and resentment, you'll be more than satisfied.

Actually in fairness OTH isn't 'wrong', he's just bourgeois: all that tiresome stuff about poor people being 'lazy' or 'layabouts'. Basically all upper-working-class social climbers talk that way - they think it is the way their betters speak, or that it will please them. But as in so many things, their earnestness is their dead giveaway.

Member #3428

06-09-08, 22:39

1Ball

06-10-08, 00:01

It all depends on what you are willing to let them get away with, Tansak. I had an asian GF a few years ago who sometimes had a temper. She threw her phone against a wall, and at the time, it was a nice phone. I refused to help her out with a new phone for 2 weeks, and then, I bought her a very basic second hand phone. She was not happy, but she took care of that phone for 6 months as if it were a bar of gold. I bought her a nice new phone after 6 months. She never threw anything again.

On the rare occasions I did something which did not sit well with her, (mostly minor stuff), if she pulled a hissie fit, I just didn't tolerate it. She either snapped out of it, or she could spend the evening / night outside. I locked the door, told her to come back in the morning, and that was that. Make up sex was always over the top fabulous, BTW.

They are not stupid. They will push the buttons as much as they can, and try to get away with murder. Up to you to let them, or not let them.

My 2 cents.

Member #3428

06-10-08, 00:23

Make up sex was always over the top fabulous, BTW.

No kidding about the make up sex. Unfortunately I don't think this one knows the buttons yet and is trying to find out what they are and what limits they have.

Seydlitz

06-10-08, 00:47

Is it only me that finds it amazing the type of games some of these thai girls play, much more so then Filipina's or Chinese ladies.

My current GF pushes here and there but does nothing too major until she feels she has a little too much power and a little too much liberty and goes over the top with comments and statements (not about money or such folks). And as she has pushed and pushed and I promptly lose my cool and tell her to bugger off but not in such nice terms and tell her exactly that she can back to her rice paddy etc..., and she can promptly go to sleep or let it rest and turn her back on the entire issue. However she wakes up the next day all sweet as can be as if nothing happened and she didn't do anything wrong or say anything wrong. Like they have a magic rewind and erase button to completely erase that moment out of their minds.

Now if I take a wrong step or overstep some bounds or if I am wrong... oh watch out for the fireworks and drama about how she wants to die and she's no good and I no love her etc..... The pulling out the knife and holding it to her chest screaming how I want her to die, throwing her phone at the wall just to smash it... the friggin drama (and expense) of arguing with a thai woman is just amazing...

The logic of a thai woman just seems completely alien to me, much worse then women from philippines and china. This is the third long time girl to pull such crap with me and I never got that from PI or China... am I just unlucky in picking the long term girls or are all thai girls like this.....

Nope, you pretty well summed it up.

It is somewhat difficult for a Western man to go through this because he hates confrontation and that excessive fuss a Thai lady can make if she feels mad about him. And btw mad is the actual word. Thais in general (not just women) can completely lose it at times. Thailand is a violent society, with a lot of blood and murder for no obvious reason other then naked anger.

In the interest of domestic peace though, the man has do decide where to draw the line. It is probably better to play deaf and blind to the innuendos and closed faces that come with minor tantrum, but if the lady is in the mood for a big fight, it is proper to confront her. There are two ways: either play mad yourself and show her that you are even more outraged and angry that she can ever be, or act disappointed at her, point out how much of a great person you are etc. and tell her that she is an ungrateful ***** who does not deserve to be with you and that there are millions of worthier ladies who would be more than willing to take her place.

Naturally, this is always a risky strategy, and you need to make sure she cannot physically harm you either on the spot or later on. I am serious. A really upset Thai lady can become a murderer pretty easily.

If she had a good reason to be upset about you in the first place (typically because you have been screwing around and she found out), again you have two options. Either you ditch here right away (and be careful that she does not have a knife in her hands) or you apologise abjectly and take her to the gold shop for some serious shopping before engaging into great make up sex.

Living with a Thai woman is a sort of emotional roller coaster ride. You never know when you are going to walk past that infrared device that will make the alarm bell ring and hell break loose. But I am told this could be said about any woman. At least we get great sex bundled with it.

Sammon

06-10-08, 04:09

Sorry to say it is not only Thai ladies who cannot behave normally.
I had two girlfriends in U.S. behaved the same way.
GF from hell at night and sweet as a kitten in the morning.
I think it is their hormones doing the trick on their brains.
But glad to say Majority of my GF and P4P are really cool.
We being soft hearted cannot or do not have the willingness to
boot the bad behavior girls out.
Firstly because we do not know what she will do next and secondly
the make up sex is spectacular.

Old Thai Hand

06-10-08, 04:16

And btw mad is the actual word. Thais in general (not just women) can completely lose it at times. Thailand is a violent society, with a lot of blood and murder for no obvious reason other then naked anger.

Absolutely true. There's a high incidence of mental illness, general emotional instability, and high levels of immaturity, not to mention shear rage, that run through the whole culture.

Also, Thais lack guts to put up with the smallest set back and fall quickly into despair and desperation at the slightest provocation. Thus, you have incidents like those often seen in the Thai media of somebody or other sitting on a roof-top ready to jump, or someone else having shot or stabbed someone in a jealous rage. The 'knife at the throat' (her throat or your throat) is a an all-to-common ploy. I have a friend who was stabbed twice by his absolutely mad GF, who then attempted to stab herself.

At the moment, we seem to be in suicide season. There have been a spate of them lately. Recently there was a well-publicized case of a girl who jumped off her balcony simply because her Thai BF had another girl. Thais seem to go off over the most insignificant things. Only yesterday, a girl jumped off the top of the science faculty building at my uni simply because her grade had dropped from an A to a B - stupid girl.

Cultural pressures and expectations and the all-to-familiar "face" play a large part in this. But, it's also to do with the Thais just not being a very tough people and just plain gutless. They can't deal with anything.

Member #3428

06-10-08, 04:21

Sorry to say it is not only Thai ladies who cannot behave normally.

Yes I know women in general are nuts but Thai ladies are more "dramatic" then Filipina's, Chinese, and women from my home country...

Sushiman23

06-10-08, 06:58

LittleBigMan

06-10-08, 09:14

OTH,

I haven't been here as long as you have and certainly haven't experience the Thai society from top to bottom because I'm stuck in the bottom! But your comments! You have something there!

LBM

Retired Army

06-10-08, 16:46

Yes I know women in general are nuts but Thai ladies are more "dramatic" then Filipina's, Chinese, and women from my home country...

I must be lucky because my Thai wife isn't anything at all like you describe. She is on an even keel and never gets mad or upset. In five years we have never had a fight, raised our voices or spoken a harsh word to each other.

Other than that, I keep the knives away from her and don't live anywhere near ducks (let's see if anyone on the forum knows what that means).

Member #3428

06-10-08, 19:49

Other than that, I keep the knives away from her and don't live anywhere near ducks (let's see if anyone on the forum knows what that means).

I know exactly what that is.... in my banana republic country it's pigs... but I know the duck issues in Thai...

NicFrenchy

06-11-08, 00:52

Other than that, I keep the knives away from her and don't live anywhere near ducks (let's see if anyone on the forum knows what that means).

And you think that's going to stop her? if she really wants to do it she will, knives or not, ducks or not.

For all we know, she could be enticing you to a nice BJ and then get a stronger bite than you would have liked (teeth are pretty sharp).

Member #3428

06-11-08, 00:55

And you think that's going to stop her? if she really wants to do it she will, knives or not, ducks or not.

For all we know, she could be enticing you to a nice BJ and then get a stronger bite than you would have liked (teeth are pretty sharp).

Gee you're full of good thoughts today.....

Old Thai Hand

06-11-08, 06:24

A 32 y.o. Thai woman committed suicide in BKK last night because her husband wouldn't take her out to dinner.

A nation of over-reacting nutters...pure and simple...and the women lead the way.

1Ball

06-11-08, 07:02

OTH, was the husband a local, or a foreigner?

NicFrenchy

06-11-08, 10:00

A 32 y.o. Thai woman committed suicide in BKK last night because her husband wouldn't take her out to dinner.

Don't believe everything you see on TV. For all we know, maybe the husband got rid of her because she forgot to buy his daily bottle of Local Whisky (or shall I say Rhum).

Old Thai Hand

06-11-08, 13:10

Don't believe everything you see on TV. For all we know, maybe the husband got rid of her because she forgot to buy his daily bottle of Local Whisky (or shall I say Rhum).

It was a definitely a suicide and the story was in the newspapers, including the English-language press.

1Ball
The husband was Thai.

Oosik1

06-11-08, 15:01

Absolutely true. There's a high incidence of mental illness, general emotional instability, and high levels of immaturity, not to mention shear rage, that run through the whole culture.

Also, Thais lack guts to put up with the smallest set back and fall quickly into despair and desperation at the slightest provocation. Thus, you have incidents like those often seen in the Thai media of somebody or other sitting on a roof-top ready to jump, or someone else having shot or stabbed someone in a jealous rage. The 'knife at the throat' (her throat or your throat) is a an all-to-common ploy. I have a friend who was stabbed twice by his absolutely mad GF, who then attempted to stab herself.

At the moment, we seem to be in suicide season. There have been a spate of them lately. Recently there was a well-publicized case of a girl who jumped off her balcony simply because her Thai BF had another girl. Thais seem to go off over the most insignificant things. Only yesterday, a girl jumped off the top of the science faculty building at my uni simply because her grade had dropped from an A to a B - stupid girl.

Cultural pressures and expectations and the all-to-familiar "face" play a large part in this. But, it's also to do with the Thais just not being a very tough people and just plain gutless. They can't deal with anything.

I thought you might have known the same girl I knew.........emotional instability, and a definite lack of emotional maturity.......32 y.o., 2 children, very beautiful, very sexy, but unpredictable. I had flown her up to Chiang Mai for a week with me, because I was beginning to really have strong feelings for her. On about the 4th day, I got up in the middle of the night to go to the hong nam, and I decided to take my phone with me to check my messages, but I didn't want to wake her with the noise from the phone. Now the messages I was checking had to do with my work.....not "other gfs." When I returned, she was packing her bags and wouldn't listen to a word I said. She flew home that day.........end of romance. There were more incidents, but I don't want to make this too long. She definitely fits this profile OTH.

Retired Army

06-11-08, 15:04

I thought you might have known the same girl I knew.........emotional instability, and a definite lack of emotional maturity.......32 y.o., 2 children, very beautiful, very sexy, but unpredictable. I had flown her up to Chiang Mai for a week with me, because I was beginning to really have strong feelings for her. On about the 4th day, I got up in the middle of the night to go to the hong nam, and I decided to take my phone with me to check my messages, but I didn't want to wake her with the noise from the phone. Now the messages I was checking had to do with my work.....not "other gfs." When I returned, she was packing her bags and wouldn't listen to a word I said. She flew home that day.........end of romance. There were more incidents, but I don't want to make this too long. She definitely fits this profile OTH.

Are you sure she just wasn't looking for any excuse to leave and save face?:)

Oosik1

06-11-08, 16:30

You could be right, but since she initiated later contacts, I don't think so. We had been to the Night Safari Zoo on a previous visit to CM by her and had a threesome pic taken with a Tiger cub. I give it to her. She told me when she came to CM the second time that she had torn it up, because she called me once and my line was busy, so she tore up the picture accusing me of talking with another woman. How you deal with someone like that? She did me a favor by leaving. There are just too many normal, beautiful, and loving women in Thailand to settle for a nut case.

Retired Army

06-11-08, 17:08

How you deal with someone like that?

You don't

There are just too many normal, beautiful, and loving women in Thailand to settle for a nut case.

Ain't that the truth. But, you need to get away from the tourist areas.

Dan7373

06-11-08, 20:08

....
At the moment, we seem to be in suicide season. There have been a spate of them lately. Recently there was a well-publicized case of a girl who jumped off her balcony simply because her Thai BF had another girl. Thais seem to go off over the most insignificant things. Only yesterday, a girl jumped off the top of the science faculty building at my uni simply because her grade had dropped from an A to a B - stupid girl.

Cultural pressures and expectations and the all-to-familiar "face" play a large part in this. But, it's also to do with the Thais just not being a very tough people and just plain gutless. They can't deal with anything.

I'd like to point out that suicide is a big problem all over the world, including the West. USA has a pretty high murder rate compared to other countries. But you probably would be surprised to find out that a lot more people in USA die from suicide than from homicide. Here is an article about it:
http://www.livescience.com/health/070829_bad_suicide.html

For various reasons, western media doesn't like to report suicides in their own countries. And many westerners have unrealistically rosy perception of their own people in terms of emotional weakness and suicide.

Humilde

06-11-08, 20:30

This is what I was talking about in my orig. Post. Who is to say this is the easy way out? How boring it must be to sit at a biergarten for 10 hours a day and wait for someone to take interest in you. Talking to man after man and being shot down many times. How is it the easy way to know you're probably end up with some overweight, unattractive farang that will want to do who knows what sexually to you? How is it easy to fear that they might hurt you physically. How is it easy to fear for your life and a std every time? How easy is it to explain this work to a potential boyfriend and move on? How easy is it to reconcile this line of work spiritually? How is it easy to know you have no marketable skills down the road.

This easy way out perception is, in my mind, the way mongers justify their view of prostitutes and disassociate themselves from any wrong doing. Doing this makes it easier not to think of them as human and to treat them with our own interests in mind. It makes us feel better about ourselves for our activity.

I believe many of the girls may do this a few times and become seduced by possibility. There is possibility of marrying a farang and having a better life. There is a possibility of using this line of work to your advantage financially and changing your future and that of those around you. I believe we are all *****s in a way. We all do things we don't like or agree with for money to a certain extent. There are few people who love their job so much they would be willing to take a pay cut. This is no different that some ambulance chasing lawyer having an ethical or moral problem with what he does and overlooking that for the reward.There are many ways 2 look at this. Many on the forum make valid points. I don't see anythng inherently wrong with selling a service (sex) what the girls do/or don't do with the money they make is their business. Some can argue they should use the money and invest in the future, save, make a business, study. In developed countries there exist subcultures of people that don't want to work hard, study, learn a trade as well as sex workers.

All I can say is it seems difficult for anyone with reasonable education/and or intellectual development without formal education to have a significant relationship (romantic) with a high % of the bar girls. Those in entertainment venues hopefully are not trying to find a meaningful relationship there.

Hey, Longshoremen have highly coveted (by some) jobs, make a lot of money, and and don't seem highly interested in intellectual development either.

Highly unlikely many of those girls will become ambulance chasing lawyers, but then again, if they did, the fees would skyrocket.

Live and let live

Terry Terrier

06-11-08, 22:47

I'd like to point out that suicide is a big problem all over the world, including the West. USA has a pretty high murder rate compared to other countries. But you probably would be surprised to find out that a lot more people in USA die from suicide than from homicide. Here is an article about it:
http://www.livescience.com/health/070829_bad_suicide.html

For various reasons, western media doesn't like to report suicides in their own countries. And many westerners have unrealistically rosy perception of their own people in terms of emotional weakness and suicide.
This discussion came up quite recently, and somebody produced a world league table of suicides. Thailand was mid-table.

IMO nearly all suicides are over-reactions. But (as flagged up by OTH) many Thai female suicides seem to be, on the face of it, incredibly silly. I wonder how big a contribution the hugely popular Thai Lakorn (soap operas) make to this type of mentality?

Old Thai Hand

06-12-08, 02:21

There are just too many normal, beautiful, and loving women in Thailand to settle for a nut case.

Ain't that the truth. But, you need to get away from the tourist areas.

I hate to disagree with you. But, I'd say that the majority of Thai women are mentally and emotionally unbalanced, not to mention incredibly immature.

I've witnessed countless examples over the years from "regular" Thai women, that have convinced me that many, if not most are abnormal in one way or another.

To answer Terry Terrier's question...I think that the situations and behaviour dramatized on Thai Lakorn are both symptomatic of this abnormality and also a huge contributor to it.

On any given night, Thai TV displays overt and wild female (and male) hysteria and histrionics for all to see and emulate. The Thais are not a sophisticated people, especially up-country. They take what they see on TV much more seriously and literally than we do in the West. Thus, it has a huge impact on their belief system and subsequent behaviour. Stomping one's feet, and losing one's cool at the slightest provocation, like a petulant child is ingrained into every Thai woman's psyche.

The great cultural myth here, that Thais like to shove in your face is that they are a calm, serene, happy, smiling, loving people because they're Buddhists, not like us mean, aggressive Farang.

The truth is quite the opposite. They bottle up an incredilbe amount of emotion and anger, which then goes off, often repeatedly, like a rocket at any given moment, with often disastrous results.

Volatile and unstable, like nitro is probably a more accurate description.

Retired Army

06-12-08, 05:53

I hate to disagree with you. But, I'd say that the majority of Thai women are mentally and emotionally unbalanced, not to mention incredibly immature.

I've witnessed countless examples over the years from "regular" Thai women, that have convinced me that many, if not most are abnormal in one way or another.

To answer Terry Terrier's question...I think that the situations and behaviour dramatized on Thai Lakorn are both symptomatic of this abnormality and also a huge contributor to it.

On any given night, Thai TV displays overt and wild female (and male) hysteria and histrionics for all to see and emulate. The Thais are not a sophisticated people, especially up-country. They take what they see on TV much more seriously and literally than we do in the West. Thus, it has a huge impact on their belief system and subsequent behaviour. Stomping one's feet, and losing one's cool at the slightest provocation, like a petulant child is ingrained into every Thai woman's psyche.

The great cultural myth here, that Thais like to shove in your face is that they are a calm, serene, happy, smiling, loving people because they're Buddhists, not like us mean, aggressive Farang.

The truth is quite the opposite. They bottle up an incredilbe amount of emotion and anger, which then goes off, often repeatedly, like a rocket at any given moment, with often disastrous results.

Volatile and unstable, like nitro is probably a more accurate description.

I've seen my share of "head cases" too; but, I have also seen many really decent, what I consider, "normal" Thai women. But, then again, they are more mature, better educated, and usually work with, or are accustomed to, Westerners. Might just be my social circle. I certainly don't consider my wife to be as you describe all Thai wome. I have never met a more calm, understanding and considerate woman in my wife. I know at times she would like to "go off" but we have decided that arguing is not an option. Discussion and compromise is the solution. Maybe my wife is an anomaly, but I’ve seen her friends and most of them seem fairly “normal” to me. So perhaps I’m the one that’s abnormal.

OTH, I strongly suspect that you have seen too much of Thais and Thailand and have a somewhat jaded opinion. I know that I got the same way myself after a few years in Bangkok. It’s enough to make you want to leave and never return. But, once you leave, after a while you start to miss the place as you forget the bad and remember the good.

Member #3428

06-12-08, 06:10

With all this talking about jumpers... atleast now I know why there are bars on the outside of the apartment balcony where I will stay. Wondered how someone could get up and break in that high up..... I'm not the brightest bulb in the group I will admit that but coming from a banana republic where our tallest building is two stories we don't have jumpers... only knives...

But I must say, you mates have completely depressed the hell out of me. Time to go to Laos instead of LOS ????

Old Thai Hand

06-12-08, 11:48

OTH, I strongly suspect that you have seen too much of Thais and Thailand and have a somewhat jaded opinion. I know that I got the same way myself after a few years in Bangkok. It’s enough to make you want to leave and never return. But, once you leave, after a while you start to miss the place as you forget the bad and remember the good.

I did leave once, lived in the Caribbean for a year, hated it and returned to Thailand because I kind of missed it. I have no regrets coming back, as I met my GF and she's relatively normal, and atypically calm like your wife.

But, I really have had enough of Thais and Thailand. Maybe being surrounded by the absolutely disgusting HiSo crowd for the last 3 years has done me in. Fortunately, my GF has had her eyes opened to the world at large and now feels as I do. She often complains about how narrow, small, bigoted and selfish Thais are. And lest someone says she got this from me, I've always been very careful not to express negative opinions about anything Thai to her. So I was surprised when she came to the decision on her own that she doesn't like it here anymore and wants to leave.

But, wanting to leave and being able to leave are 2 different things.

All I know us that it used to be fun here and now it isn't.

Member #3428

06-12-08, 11:53

I did leave once, lived in the Caribbean for a year, hated it and returned to Thailand because I kind of missed it.

OTH..... grass is always greener on the other side... until you jump that fence and land in shit.

I couldn't stand the US mainland nor the Caribbean nor Central America nor South America. Just can't take their crap, don't think things have gotten any better.

1Ball

06-12-08, 12:07

well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?

Member #3428

06-12-08, 12:15

Daddy07

06-12-08, 13:33

well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?
Yeah, I'm waiting for OTH or someone else to convince me that somewhere else is better, all things considered -- especially the easy availablility of great sex.

Opebo

06-12-08, 15:29

well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?

Just that though Thailand is a shadow of its former self, and gets worse every day, it is still better than everywhere else (and everywhere else is getting worse every day).

1Ball

06-12-08, 16:27

Yeah, I'm waiting for OTH or someone else to convince me that somewhere else is better, all things considered -- especially the easy availablility of great sex.
So many places fit in that category (easy availability of great sex), and by the time I am ready to hang my hat, I won't even remember what sex is :(
So it is not really one of the important criteria.

Still looking for Nirvana............

Joe Nailer

06-12-08, 16:31

well, I am looking ofr a place to hang my hat, and so far have come up empty handed. Suggestions? Warm, good healthcare, value for money, good food, good diving, affordable....

Any thoughts?

Check out Okinawa, Japan

Warm - yes, subtropical climate (typhoons come often though)
Healthcare - excellent, as long as you pay, not an arm and a leg though
Value for money - yes, you know that
Good food - yes, you know this too
Good diving - yes, beautiful seas, beautiful islands
Affordable - if you can afford BKK at frang standard, then yes.
People - trust worthy, no frang prices,
Mongering - refer to Japan threads

Find a job at US base or Uni there to cover daily living cost.

(Don't tell anyone)

Old Thai Hand

06-12-08, 16:47

Yeah, I'm waiting for OTH or someone else to convince me that somewhere else is better, all things considered -- especially the easy availablility of great sex.

Well, obviously we each have a different perspective. You're living in lala-land and have no worries except who'll you screw next.

I, on the other hand work for a living. And, in that regard this place is a shit-hole. The working conditions suck, the salaries suck and most of all, the Thais with whom and for whom one has to work suck, Big Time!

If I manage to be able to retire, I'll probably do it here when I have a carefree life like you.

But until then, there are many better places to hang one's hat in order to make a decent living, have a decent life and be treated with the respect, one deserves.

#1 on my list is the UAE.

Retired Army

06-12-08, 16:59

But, I really have had enough of Thais and Thailand. Maybe being surrounded by the absolutely disgusting HiSo crowd for the last 3 years has done me in. Fortunately, my GF has had her eyes opened to the world at large and now feels as I do. She often complains about how narrow, small, bigoted and selfish Thais are. And lest someone says she got this from me, I've always been very careful not to express negative opinions about anything Thai to her. So I was surprised when she came to the decision on her own that she doesn't like it here anymore and wants to leave.

All I know us that it used to be fun here and now it isn't.

I understand having enough of Thai's and Thailand, especially the HiSo kind. But screw them! It's the middle class Thais that I know and respect so much. My wife, like your GF also decided she's had enough of Thailand.

Oosik1

06-12-08, 17:35

Now, I am very curious, OTH. Why on earth UAE? A muslim country would be my last choice.

Daddy07

06-12-08, 18:54

...If I manage to be able to retire, I'll probably do it here when I have a carefree life like you...

There, he said it … THAILAND – ESPECIALLY THE PROVINCE OF LALA LAND WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW -- IS THE BEST PLACE TO LIVE IF ONE WANTS THE CAREFREE LIFE OF A HAPPY SEX MONGER!!! That’s it! Discussion closed. Stick a fork in the argument, it’s done. The best value, all things considered, is right here in Thailand. Other places have their good points, but Thailand has it all. OTH is going to retire here as soon as he can afford the carefree life, and if it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me.

Hey, I agree about all the negative aspects of having to work for Thais. I wouldn’t want to do it either. Wouldn’t particularly want to work for Arabs either, though, or anyone else for that matter, having been my own boss all my adult life; and I sure as hell wouldn’t want to live and work in a place where my life might be governed by Sharia law, or some such mindless system like that. Isn’t the UAE one of those horrible places where girls can’t be seen on the streets talking to a man not her relative, lest she risk being whipped in public? Is your girlfriend, who you say now also despises Thailand going to go with you? She had better, or OTH ain’t gonna get any pussy. Are you sure you know what you’re doing? :)

Giotto

06-12-08, 19:28

Retired Army

06-12-08, 21:15

Now, I am very curious, OTH. Why on earth UAE? A muslim country would be my last choice.

UAE isn't that bad. It's fairly modern, Westernized and moderate. Only bad thing, besides the heat, humidity and dust, are the visitors from a certain neignboring country that flock to Abu Dahbi on Thursday night to party, chase women and act like idiots. But, wait... that also happen on Sukhumvit Soi-3? As for women there are a lot of Phlippers...

Old Thai Hand

06-13-08, 01:05

Now, I am very curious, OTH. Why on earth UAE? A muslim country would be my last choice.

In a word, MONEY! The best Expat packages in the world. I've known several people who've gone there on a 3 year contract and saved $100,000.

It isn't Saudi Arabia for gawd's sake. There are plenty of hookers. Read the forum. I've been to Dubai and it's very modern and cosmopolitan. The locals only make up about 25% of the population. There are people from all over, including a large population of Filipinas.

Piper 1 swears by the place.

Daddy07

Yes, if I get a job there, my GF will be going with me, after we get married.

It's true that I may retire here, preferably in Hua Hin or Pranburi. It's unlikely I'd ever retire to Pattaya, although I have considered it. That's not really Thailand (which could actually be a good thing, I suppose). But, there are too many low-lifes on both sides of the equation which make it less than desirable (not meaning you, of course :)). I will say, though that's it's the most reasonably priced place to live around, which is an attraction. Condo prices there are at least bordering on sane. You can still get something for a million baht or even less, in some cases. That wouldn't get you a cardboard box in Hua Hin, or anything at all in BKK, unless you want to live way out in Bagna near the airport.

Anyway, Nirvana is anywhere you find that makes you happy. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you've found yours.

Piper1

06-13-08, 01:37

It's more than money. It's all about enjoying life wherever you are. I make a good living in Dubai, but I could make at least the same or more in the west. Dubai is a crazy place - I love it.

Oosik - my wife is Moslem (and cute) and I'm athiest (and not so cute). UAE/Dubai is not as conservative as you think.

1Ball

06-13-08, 03:28

1Ball

06-13-08, 03:30

NicFrenchy

06-13-08, 04:16

Seems like you folks in Switzerland and Germany have already found your Nirvana. ;) What I find interesting is 8 out of 10 are cold climates (vs tropical or sub tropical), and Vancouver is known for it's bad weather.

These reports are very relative. What criterias did they use to score?
Sure most the cities in the top 10 are safe, but also very expensive and not so great to visit IMHO. It's all a matter of what one looks for when deciding which city's (or country) is best. We all have different tastes adn opinions (thank fuck for that, LOL).

As an example, I can tell you I will never again live in a muslim country (lived in North Africa for a year), I have my reasons that others might not share but on the other hand I really see myself going back to the USA (I like the life there).

Retired Army

06-13-08, 06:12

According to a report written by Mercer consulting, published by Business Week, the best places to live in the world are

1. Zurich
2. Geneva and Vienna (tie)
4. Vancouver
5. Aukland NZ
6. Dusseldorf
7. Munich and Frankfurt (tie)
9. Bern
10. Sydney

Seems like you folks in Switzerland and Germany have already found your Nirvana. ;) What I find interesting is 8 out of 10 are cold climates (vs tropical or sub tropical), and Vancouver is known for it's bad weather.

Does this mean that Harare, Riyadh, or Kuwait city are not on the list ?

On a serious note, I often wonder why places like Zanzibar, Mauritius, Bali, Santorini, Na Trang, or even Penang, etc, never make it on a list of best places to live.....

Eight of these places are the most expensive in the world to live. I just returned from Geneva last week and a cup of coffee at Starbucks was 300 baht. Dinner was 2,000. Not to mention paying 40% of your income in taxes plus VAT on everything. No place for retirement.

Now, Sydney is paradise. What a great city!

1Ball

06-13-08, 11:54

I hope this is not boring too many of you.

I have to agree that the list I posted does not appeal to me one bit.

so, where? Even I have never been there, I am interested in checking out the Seychelles.....

Member #3428

06-13-08, 17:27

so, where? Even I have never been there, I am interested in checking out the Seychelles.....

I worked there for a while... It was one of those places that was nice to visit but I couldn't see me living there.

M P Lurker

06-14-08, 04:48

Eight of these places are the most expensive in the world to live. I just returned from Geneva last week and a cup of coffee at Starbucks was 300 baht. Dinner was 2,000. Not to mention paying 40% of your income in taxes plus VAT on everything. No place for retirement.

Now, Sydney is paradise. What a great city!
Sexually, Sydney might be the best city of Aus, but its still not up there as a mongering destination. Even a 30 min quickie would be expensive and the white working girls are mostly hopeless. There is a good Asian population in Sydney however. The traffic isn't the best either but better than BKK (would not be hard).

Melbourne is actually considered the more livable city but is a bit too cold. Retirees prefer to head north to sunny Queensland.

For playing up, I don't bother with Aus any more. Thailand, Germany, and many more are way better for quality to price ratios.

Aussie Mick

Retired Army

06-14-08, 07:48

Sexually, Sydney might be the best city of Aus, but its still not up there as a mongering destination. Even a 30 min quickie would be expensive and the white working girls are mostly hopeless. There is a good Asian population in Sydney however. The traffic isn't the best either but better than BKK (would not be hard).

Melbourne is actually considered the more livable city but is a bit too cold. Retirees prefer to head north to sunny Queensland.

For playing up, I don't bother with Aus any more. Thailand, Germany, and many more are way better for quality to price ratios.

Aussie Mick

Didn't go for mongering, why would someone living in BKK go to SYD for sex. Just didn't make sense. For several years I stayed on Oxford street where there was quite a bit of wierd shit.

As for Germany, I see a lot of really good looking German girls in Frankfurt, but they just don't turn me on like Asian chicks. Must be pretty universal that Asian girls are the hottest in the world because the German guys also love them and there are many in Germany. Thais and Philippinos mostly, but some Chinese and Vietnamese. They own the Asian food stores and restaurants.

M P Lurker

06-14-08, 15:33

Didn't go for mongering, why would someone living in BKK go to SYD for sex. Just didn't make sense. For several years I stayed on Oxford street where there was quite a bit of wierd shit.

As for Germany, I see a lot of really good looking German girls in Frankfurt, but they just don't turn me on like Asian chicks. Must be pretty universal that Asian girls are the hottest in the world because the German guys also love them and there are many in Germany. Thais and Philippinos mostly, but some Chinese and Vietnamese. They own the Asian food stores and restaurants.
Yes we agree that Sydney is not the best place to go for sex. Its good in other ways.

I agree that Asians are hot but so are South American, West Indies, Mauritians and so on.
Frankfurt has girls from everywhere, including Dominica, Colombia, Brazil, Russia, Spain, Ukraine, Romania, Czech, Poland, Thailand, China, etc. Even a few German girls. A complete smorgasboard.

I have had at least 5 Thai girls in Germany, but I always managed to find more spectacular girls from somewhere else. A German, a Russian, a Romanian, a Czech/Scot, a Jamaican, a Dominican and a Greek/German was the best dream girl of all.

But the Russian girls I see in BKK are just not up to the standard in Frankfurt. I prefer to be in Thailand for Thai girls most of the time and for long-time.
Realistically a pretty Thai girl will want an older western man for "long time" but hot young European dream girl will not. Of course Thailand is much cheaper.

Fon Tok

06-22-08, 19:47

Lately, while out getting a little on the side, I've run into more than a couple of boring "starfish. " As I'm not a regular monger, and I have to be somewhat discrete with my occasional plying, sometimes I end up in places I have not been before, or my preferred girl is not working that day so I often follow the.sans advice.

I know it's not easy being a sex worker servicing middle aged farang and Japanese, but these girls make more in an hour or two than a lot of women make in a week.

My question is: What's with these girls who basically do nothing once they get their kit off? You think being sex workers they'd put a little effort into it for a tip maybe (or a repeat performance)? How do they get their jobs if they're almost useless at what they do? Comments?

Run Mann

06-22-08, 23:13

What about the waitress who performs poorly, spilling your drink/taking too long to service you, or the Doctor who operate on the wrong limb? Incompetence and poor performance can be found in any profession. There will always be good and bad performers, it’s a part of life not restricted to working girls.

Dinghy

06-23-08, 02:31

hey Mick - the dyevs in Thailand are there because they are either on holiday (working holiday) or couldn't make it in Russia. There seem to be a lot Uzbeks around Pattaya

NicFrenchy

06-23-08, 03:32

My question is: What's with these girls who basically do nothing once they get their kit off? You think being sex workers they'd put a little effort into it for a tip maybe (or a repeat performance)? How do they get their jobs if they're almost useless at what they do? Comments?

We have only ourselves to blame for that one. If the girl can get away with doing nothing adn still getting the same amount of money than if she would put great efforts, why woudn't she try? you can't blame her for trying.
Blame the idiots that still pay these girls for doing nothing.
If the girl does not perform, send her out with only a fraction of the amount and look for another girl.

M P Lurker

06-23-08, 04:49

hey Mick - the dyevs in Thailand are there because they are either on holiday (working holiday) or couldn't make it in Russia. There seem to be a lot Uzbeks around Pattaya
The "dyevs"?

I guess the uglier Russians, Uzbeks, Kazaks etc. are in Thailand. I didn't see many of the same quality seen in Europe.

BTW I hear that many of these girls in Thailand do bareback for an extra fee. So sounds too risky to me.
I prefer higher class P4P who supposedly refuse bareback.
But its hard to tell one from the other.

Opebo

06-23-08, 17:26

BTW I hear that many of these girls in Thailand do bareback for an extra fee. So sounds too risky to me.
I prefer higher class P4P who supposedly refuse bareback.
But its hard to tell one from the other.

I can confirm that the one Russian I had in Bangkok allowed bareback, but merely because I insisted. The fee was the same 1,000 baht short time we had originally agreed upon. And yes, at that price, she wasn't so enjoyable to look at (or fuck for that matter). One of those blowzy bags from Coffee World at Soi 7/1.

Dinghy

06-24-08, 16:13

dyev - "dyevochka" - the Russian word for "girl"

Oosik1

07-01-08, 20:12

I hope I am allowed to do this, but I wanted to share an excellent article which helps to explain what many Thai women, and American women, have asked me. I refer to: www.fredoneverything.net/AsianWomen

I hate feminists. The straw that broke the back of my marriage had its roots in feminism. It is my hot button issue. So, when I read this, I thought that this is a guy who not only has accomplished a good analysis of feminism, but has done a good job of writing it down.

Sorry, Jackson, if I shouldn't be referring to another web site.

NicFrenchy

07-02-08, 02:23

PinkPearl

07-02-08, 03:02

The power english language holds amoung people in Asian society is magical..everything is forgotten about your background..the moment you speak english :)As a rich P4P guy, I want a lady who speaks as little of my home language as possible. That's one reason I cum to LOS. Don't care to listen to women's chatter, let alone life stories, as I have with night ladies in Canada. Will bring duct tape if necessary! LOL!

PinkPearl

07-02-08, 03:49

Thais are faced with pressure to compete regionally and globally and simply can't. For example, the Vietnamese (with a similar climate and culture), but having survived decades of war, kick the shit out of the Thais on all levels.Not in P4P, that's for sure.

There the Thai kick all other Asian cuntry's butts bigtime.

PinkPearl

07-02-08, 04:29

The girls stop working and agree to a monthly budget which is usually much lower than their usual income from the bar. They "give it a chance", 15 - 20 k a month is enough (still a lot compared to the income levels here in Thailand), instead of 50 k - 75 k they had before (depending on their looks, behavior, success with customers). Had a girl in BKK earlier this year, she got 100K+ in a month & kept working, and we both knew it & were both accepting of that. She knew I took other P4P ladies, no problem. Seemed quite content with her 100K, obviously. Would be happy to hook up with her again next trip. Good looks, say 8 out of 10, likewise with attitude and service.

PinkPearl

07-02-08, 05:23

1. But, I decided to just let her run with the lie, because she said it with such amazing conviction, that I'm sure it is exactly how she remembered it and what's worse it was so convincing that I started to doubt my own belief in the truth - LOL.

2. Anyway, all of this contributes to the that "fuzzy fringe"..... OK, now I'm just waiting for some wag to make a joke about the "fuzzy fringe" - ah there - hopefully I've pre-empted it. :D

1. You started to doubt, no doubt because at your age, post 50,
Alzheimeir's has set in, and she was telling the truth!

2. Evidently ISG is the only thing keeping you sane in LOS, and why you haven't left there long ago, giving you a connection with the real world.

Re #2 be sure to send Jackson an extra something with your next contribution. And in light of #1, make a note now to remind yourself to do so.

LOL!

Dickhead

07-02-08, 07:43

This guy Fred Reed is an asshat and can't write worth shit.

M P Lurker

07-02-08, 10:33

This guy Fred Reed is an asshat and can't write worth shit.
I couldn't possibly fail to disagree with you not less.

PinkPearl

07-02-08, 14:01

But, seriously, unless you've branched out into the general population, now that you've been in Pattaya awhile, the term "Daddy" doesn't really apply in a P4P scenario. It really only works in a situation with an older guy and a young, non-P4P girl, often in a business (or in my case) educational environment.

The first time I ever encountered this was 11 years ago when I first moved here and was working for a Thai company. After awhile, a girl in the office asked if they could call my mate, who was 54 at the time, "Daddy". He was a real old Thai hand, having been here since the 70s. He was quite excited about this and gave me the low-down on what "Daddy" really meant. I've since discovered for myself that he was quite right. It may sound slightly unsavory to outsiders. But, it carries a certain cache with women, if they can call you "Daddy" and the added element is that you then call them "Baby". I suppose it's all very childish. But, it works for me. ;)Last year I was surprised to have one of my regular P4P girls call me Daddy. It left me wondering what she meant, that I was old enough to be her father, or providing for her {& her family} in a way that a father would {even though any monies she recieved from me were earned}. That this term as used by her had any sexual connotation makes no sense, as fathers do not normally have sex with those who call them such. Nevertheless we often engaged in sex acts, but usually not extremely lewd. LOL

Unlike your male "mate" who was "quite excited" at the prospect of a "girl in the office" wanting to call him "Daddy", my feeling with the P4P TG was quite the opposite! Also unlike your story, she did not request to call me that. If I recall it was said in a joking way, like she would sometimes say "I love you" in the middle of a BJ.

PinkPearl

07-02-08, 16:19

OTH is absolutely spot-on with this post. It's not easy to break into Thai culture and meet really decent non-P4P Thai woman; but, it's much more satisfying once you do. I was able to do it after a couple of years and I have never regreted the decision. Bar girls get very boring quickly.

RAMaybe for you & OTH they get boring.

For me P4P ladies equals sex, sex & more sex which equals never boring.

But being stuck with one woman all the time might mean boring sex, besides numerous other negatives, including this "relationship" thing OTH worships & can't stop yapping about. He must have a really low sex drive & watch loads of chick flicks!

Oosik1

07-02-08, 16:27

This guy Fred Reed is an asshat and can't write worth shit.

I think Dickhead might be a closet feminist.

M P Lurker

07-03-08, 05:11

dyev - "dyevochka" - the Russian word for "girl"
Ah yes, I have heard this word on "The Rosetta Stone" Russian 101, but the abbreviation was a bit too much for a mere Thai monger.

M P Lurker

07-03-08, 05:17

Good one.

But, seriously, unless you've branched out into the general population, now that you've been in Pattaya awhile, the term "Daddy" doesn't really apply in a P4P scenario. It really only works in a situation with an older guy and a young, non-P4P girl, often in a business (or in my case) educational environment.

The first time I ever encountered this was 11 years ago when I first moved here and was working for a Thai company. After awhile, a girl in the office asked if they could call my mate, who was 54 at the time, "Daddy". He was a real old Thai hand, having been here since the 70s. He was quite excited about this and gave me the low-down on what "Daddy" really meant. I've since discovered for myself that he was quite right. It may sound slightly unsavory to outsiders. But, it carries a certain cache with women, if they can call you "Daddy" and the added element is that you then call them "Baby". I suppose it's all very childish. But, it works for me. ;)
OTH,

Are you referring to english words "daddy" and "baby" or are you translating from Thai "Phor" (or perhaps "Pa-pa") to "daddy".

Now "baby" strictly is "tharok" (or "dek tharok" or "dek orn") in Thai but I doubt that this word would be used? "luuk" (child/daugther) maybe?

Anyway my main point is that "daddy" sounds a bit strange in English (to me) where "phor" or "pa-pa" (or "pa" Chinese style) sounds quite natural in Thai.
I usually get called "loong" Mick (Uncle Mick) by younger girls or their children.

Petemcc

07-06-08, 13:36

Fon Tok

07-06-08, 18:31

ask giotto, he employs some of them.
do i detect some sour grapes here? if this is the case, possibly some pre-sports bar "sex-ercising" should me mandatory for the fresh young lassies from isaan!

fortunately, not all thai women are starfishes, or many of us would not bother chasing them with our shrinking wallets readily in hand.

but for the old cowboys out there in isg land, a limp warm body with a couple pair of wet lips might be just enough to crack a smile once in awhile!

Member #3428

07-07-08, 10:41

So... came back to BKK after being gone for 10 whole days and walked into the TGF's apartment (which pretty much I paid for everything inside that place) where we stay and low and behold there were three bridal magazines sitting on the new work desk I just bought 10 days ago.....

Wonder what all this could mean? ;) So much for her conversations about how she doesn't want marriage.

Now in Hua Hin after two days in BKK... so so so so so nice to get away from the damn city....

Member #3428

07-07-08, 10:53

Ask Giotto, he employs some of them.

Whole new stable right now.... and from the show they were putting on Sat night I'd say there are very few starfish around right now.

Petemcc

07-07-08, 12:25

Whole new stable right now.... and from the show they were putting on Sat night I'd say there are very few starfish around right now.
If last Monday and Tuesday is an indication, I would say you are mistaken. I have my own views which I do not intend to post as it will cause the biggest war since Iraq, suffice it to say Livingstones does not match my high standards of P4P. The girls' attitudes can be summarised using the following words placed into a sentence.
stink, up themselves doesn't so far, primadonnas the are think they their shit.

M P Lurker

07-07-08, 12:39

Whole new stable right now.... and from the show they were putting on Sat night I'd say there are very few starfish around right now.

We all meet starfish on occasions, however:
I once had a quite good time with a girl that another fellow ISG monger complained was incredibly bad.
However she wasn't good enough to make me desperate for her. I would say just average.

It depends on your attitude and how the girls reacts to you and whether she likes you, whether you scare her (agressive or dick too big), whether you have the right chemistry, etc.
I get incredibly turned off by bossy girls.

Some guys like to be serviced and have the girl do everything. I am more of a doer, so if the girl is not very wild it doesn't matter as long as she is willing to let herself go, and try to enjoy it at least.
Some girls are inexperienced and don't know how to do BJs. I can forgive this. No BJ is better than a really bad one. However when girls have little experience, we should commence their training I feel. Hard if they little English though. I have had a couple of girls so in-experienced that they may as well have been virgins. Still got them to orgasm though.

Usually I find the worst girls are those with plenty of experience and have no interest in sex nor pleasing the guy any longer and just wanting it to be over in a hurry.

Petemcc

07-07-08, 13:08

We all meet starfish on occasions, however:
I once had a quite good time with a girl that another fellow ISG monger complained was incredibly bad.
However she wasn't good enough to make me desperate for her. I would say just average.

It depends on your attitude and how the girls reacts to you and whether she likes you, whether you scare her (agressive or dick too big), whether you have the right chemistry, etc.
I get incredibly turned off by bossy girls.

Some guys like to be serviced and have the girl do everything. I am more of a doer, so if the girl is not very wild it doesn't matter as long as she is willing to let herself go, and try to enjoy it at least.
Some girls are inexperienced and don't know how to do BJs. I can forgive this. No BJ is better than a really bad one. However when girls have little experience, we should commence their training I feel. Hard if they little English though. I have had a couple of girls so in-experienced that they may as well have been virgins. Still got them to orgasm though.

Usually I find the worst girls are those with plenty of experience and have no interest in sex nor pleasing the guy any longer and just wanting it to be over in a hurry.

I am very into interaction, and I treat girls as I would treat my wife or girlfriend, which is well, and with respect. However I am also a customer, not a charity, and I expect a certain amount of customer service, even if it is acting. I don't think that is too much to ask.

1Ball

07-07-08, 14:47

So... came back to BKK after being gone for 10 whole days and walked into the TGF's apartment (which pretty much I paid for everything inside that place) where we stay and low and behold there were three bridal magazines sitting on the new work desk I just bought 10 days ago.....

I do remember mentionning this to you a few months ago, Tansak. When is the blessed event?

Congratulations !!!!

Retired Army

07-07-08, 18:24

Retired Army

07-07-08, 18:26

I am very into interaction, and I treat girls as I would treat my wife or girlfriend, which is well, and with respect. However I am also a customer, not a charity, and I expect a certain amount of customer service, even if it is acting. I don't think that is too much to ask.

If this doesn't work get a tazer. That really gets them going.

1Ball

07-07-08, 22:46

If this doesn't work get a tazer. That really gets them going.
I am rolling on the floor thinking of RA chasing a TG around the room with a tazer in his hand, shouting "come here, my lovely, this will invigorate you" :D

Classic !

Member #3428

07-08-08, 02:31

Perhaps she is marrying someone else.

That could make my life a whole lot easier if that was the case. Unfortunately I doubt that is the plan.

Member #3428

07-08-08, 02:32

I do remember mentionning this to you a few months ago, Tansak. When is the blessed event?

Congratulations !!!!

Probably in Bali with you, make it a dual wedding. ;)

Cheap Meat

07-08-08, 03:36

Guys, you don't need money to have sex anymore. By scamming girls into giving you sex, you can get free sex for the rest of your life and not spend another satang on a hooker again. I have found a way to scam woman into giving me sex every time. Here's how I do it.

First, forget about the hooker scene in Thailand. You need to go after non-pro Thai women. 'Good (sortof) girls' who are just looking for some cash on the side. What I will do is scour dating sites, shopping malls, and the streets of Thailand offering girls a few thousand baht for the privelege of having sex with me. Most girls will turn your offer down, but many many will take you up on your offer, even virgin good girls.

You have sex. When the time comes for her to leave and you to pay up, you simply make up an excuse to get her out of the room and out of your life. Without paying of course. I have found that the best excuses to dump girls is the 'I'm going to the atm and I'll be right back excuse'. Of course you never come back and you just got laid for free.

The girls, being naive average girls and with nobody to back them up, cannot do anything about it. Using this technique I have managed to avoid paying for sex in Thailand. To hell with the gogos and bars. So, why pay when you can get it for free?

Cheap Meat

Member #3428

07-13-08, 12:39

I do remember mentionning this to you a few months ago, Tansak. When is the blessed event?

Congratulations !!!!

Went from wedding to knives in a hurry over here 1ball... maybe bali won't work for the wedding...

1Ball

07-13-08, 14:15

Went from wedding to knives in a hurry over here 1ball... maybe bali won't work for the wedding...
OK Tansak, you have to spill the beans, enquiring minds want to know.
Happily esconsced in my home away from home, Bali, knowing things will change for you, and we will see you here in August; the GF wants to see how much skinnier you are, than the last time she saw you. Thanks God she likes a bit of meat on my bones !!!

Member #3428

07-14-08, 03:23

OK Tansak, you have to spill the beans, enquiring minds want to know.
Happily esconsced in my home away from home, Bali, knowing things will change for you, and we will see you here in August; the GF wants to see how much skinnier you are, than the last time she saw you. Thanks God she likes a bit of meat on my bones !!!

Oh I think I'm down about 100 lbs right now since Jan. Lets just say that my tailor hates that they give me free alterations for life and the girls think I am a a different person, they don't believe I am the same guy. So your GF won't have a clue who I am.

Oh the knives were not at my dick they were at her and her not wanting me to leave the apartment but she calling others and telling them she's afraid and she wants to die etc... It is nice that she is learning what buttons not to push but it was a long night with family, threats of police, threats of suicide, family calling in ex pat guys married into the family to come over to get me etc... Had family from all over come running into town all night long... welcome to the family huh ;)

Basically it was an SMS that started off a fight that escalated into a heated battle. Her slow english, my poor english, my culture vs. thai culture etc... went through the roof so we had about 18 hours of a good drag out where she was blocking the apartment door not letting me out etc... We'll see where it goes from here but the make up sex is always great.

1Ball

07-14-08, 11:38

I just sold that screenplay to a thai soap opera, Tansak, thanks, a bit of walking around money ;)

All joking aside, come on down alone in August, and leave the little lady alone at home. We will fix you up with a nice Indo girl, who doesn't know anything about ducks and knives, and will treat you like the King you are. You'll forget about the other one right quick ! :D

M P Lurker

07-15-08, 12:24

Daddy07

08-11-08, 16:08

Several months ago, I met a very lovely girl dancing at Sisters a-go-go. It felt like love at first sight. We made eye contact. She smiled so sweetly. I winked and smiled back. Soon she was sitting next to me. We laughed and joked. She touched me so softly. She is so tiny; so feminine. Her smile is radiant; her figure so beautiful. I liked every thing about her – beautiful face, outstanding body, charming personality -- and she speaks pretty good English too.

She asked me to bar fine her. I agreed after she said she liked oral sex. Our first session was nice. I enjoyed licking her soft bald pussy until she climaxed. Her BBBJ technique is mediocre at best, but her face is so pretty she had no trouble at all getting me off. The chemistry was great – wonderful GFE. She gave me her number and became a regular.

When she complained of no customers at Sisters, I suggested she go work at Super Baby. She had no trouble getting that job. When low season came and she complained again about the lack of customers at Super Baby, I suggested another bar that I knew had many customers, and she got that job too. She seemed very grateful for my help. I was happy for her.

Twice a week she always sent me an SMS saying: “How are you, Daddy? I miss you so much.” How sweet. I always invited her to come see me before work for another nice session, and I would give her 1100 baht. Now and then I would bar fine her for 600 baht, give her 1000 after the session, and she was always happy.

Once, she admired a bedside clock in my room, joking that I give it to her. Two weeks later I found another one just like it and presented it to her as we lay in bed. She squealed with delight over the simple gift. Our sessions, though always nice, remained mostly the same without variation. Her BBBJ’s remained mediocre. She didn’t want to change the routine. I was getting bored.

Two weeks ago she sent me another “I miss you so much” message, and I replied that I would see her soon. I went to her bar and bought her a drink. She whined about not having a customer for 14 days. I invited her to come see me the next day. She said: “I don’t know.” I said OK. Then she started bitching at me about not bar fining her. “My friend ask me why he (me) not pay bar for you,” and on and on. I told her straight out that I wanted her to come see me, but I wasn’t going to bar fine her. She stomped off leaving her untouched drink on the table.

A few days later I bought her another drink and she stomped off again after the same conversation. This time I called softly after her: “I don’t want to see you again.”

It’s my favorite bar so I still go there a lot. Now she won’t look at me. She walked right past me once having to squeeze past a table full of customers so that her face was six inches away from mine, but she would not look up at me. She knew I was there. I thought to myself: this girl cares more about her friend’s opinion of her than the 2200 baht I was giving her every week. If she really didn’t care about that, she would look at me and smile, but apparently she does care and she’s not happy. Of course, if she gives in to me she will lose face with her friend. I was touched.

So long, little sweetheart. It was great while it lasted, but you demanded a little too much.

Time to move on to the next one. And the next, and the next.

Thai girls. I love them, but will never understand them.

NicFrenchy

08-11-08, 16:32

Time to move on to the next one. And the next, and the next.

Thai girls. I love them, but will never understand them.

Maybe time to move to regular (non P4P) girls? you're a local so it's not hard ;)

Old Thai Hand

08-12-08, 06:06

Maybe time to move to regular (non P4P) girls? you're a local so it's not hard ;)

Didin't we already have a discussion awhile ago about the insanity of Thai women?

Anyway, while P4P, especially BGs have a rather extreme and unique form or erratic and bizarre behaviour patterns, I don't think they have a monopoly on such behaviour.

I've known enough regular TGs to confidently say that nutty behaviour is quite endemic throughout the whole Thai female population.

Daddy07

08-12-08, 09:02

Maybe time to move to regular (non P4P) girls? you're a local so it's not hard ;)

Yeah, I did that a few months ago and found that it’s far more hassle than p4p.

Wait and see, Nic. Some day it might catch up with you. A certain Italian ‘sponsor’ might come after you with a knife. :D

Didin't we already have a discussion awhile ago about the insanity of Thai women? ...

Yes, we did, and this is part of a continuing saga, which is the purpose of this thread.

Despite all the insanity, these girls are more than worth the trouble as long as the relationships are kept at arms length. I’ve already found a new regular – a 19 year old angel.

NicFrenchy

08-12-08, 10:09

Didin't we already have a discussion awhile ago about the insanity of Thai women?

Anyway, while P4P, especially BGs have a rather extreme and unique form or erratic and bizarre behaviour patterns, I don't think they have a monopoly on such behaviour.

I've known enough regular TGs to confidently say that nutty behaviour is quite endemic throughout the whole Thai female population.

Appreciated, but we're not looking for a wife here are we? Well, I for sure am not. Just a nice horizontal sport partner or a "gig" LOL

NicFrenchy

08-12-08, 10:16

Wait and see, Nic. Some day it might catch up with you. A certain Italian ‘sponsor’ might come after you with a knife. :D

Yeah, I know LOL.. dumb guys usually react like that.
In this case, who is to blame? me? or the girl he sends money to?
For what it's worth, if he is dumb enough to think that sponsoring a girl from overseas is going to make her stay faithful... especially when she is young and beautiful and he is old. By the way, beside me, she also fucks another 2 thai guys, one that is a gig and the other is the Official Brother (in the eyes of the Sponsor).

OTH, I have far less experience than you in regards to thai girls, the only 2 long term relationship I have had with non P4P girls ended because it was too much drama for me to handle (screening of cellphone numbers and sms, examination of clothes and other stuff like that).
I am now fully satisfied with the "gig" like relationship... no strings attached, just call each other and meet, go out, have fun and have sex.

Old Thai Hand

08-12-08, 16:27

OTH, I have far less experience than you in regards to thai girls, the only 2 long term relationship I have had with non P4P girls ended because it was too much drama for me to handle (screening of cellphone numbers and sms, examination of clothes and other stuff like that).

Well, you haven't been here as long as I have and you're 20-some years younger. You still have plenty of time to experience the whole gamut of relationships. :)

A lot of Thai women model their behaviour after the histrionics they see displayed in Thai lakorn on TV. But, I've also seen Farang men display just as extreme jealous behaviour towards Thai women. Relationships here are often emotionally charged at both ends.

Sanook D

08-13-08, 04:21

Anyway, while P4P, especially BGs have a rather extreme and unique form or erratic and bizarre behaviour patterns, I don't think they have a monopoly on such behaviour.

I've known enough regular TGs to confidently say that nutty behaviour is quite endemic throughout the whole Thai female population.

Add yaa baa, often heavy alcohol consumption, and badly damaged self image ("I am bad girl"- girl who has gone of the deep end socially) to a normal Thai/Isaan girl (i.e., neurotic, emotionally puerile female whose role models are the "good girls" on Thai soaps) and you get a P4P-BG.

Thai women (and it must be added, men) are very good at maintaining self-control and laughing things off/burying head in sand up to the point at which they lose control utterly (could possibly explain the high murder rate amongst such seemingly gentle people). I'm guessing that in a Thai/Thai relationship both parties are good at detecting the "I'm about to blow a gasket" signs, but you, Mr. "Come On Lady, Stop Acting Childish" Farang, are likely to keep pushing the wrong buttons merely by acting all reasonable and rational in the face of extreme silliness, petty jealousy, and baseless suspicion; and lo and behold, you're faced with a meltdown requiring Tasers and straightjackets. And from her perspective you likely gave her no choice but to act that way.

Just remember that your Thai girl is in terms of emotional response and expectations living on what might as well be another planet (in the case of a BG, the planet is likely wobbling on its axis). You might develop an intellectual understanding that allows you to predict behavior, but unless you were raised here you will never really understand it (something to be grateful for, I think).

Daddy07

08-13-08, 17:06

Yeah, I know LOL.. dumb guys usually react like that.
In this case, who is to blame? me? or the girl he sends money to?
For what it's worth, if he is dumb enough to think that sponsoring a girl from overseas is going to make her stay faithful... especially when she is young and beautiful and he is old. By the way, beside me, she also fucks another 2 thai guys, one that is a gig and the other is the Official Brother (in the eyes of the Sponsor)...

That poor, poor, pathetic bastard.

Give him my condolances when he finally catches up with you, OK? :D

Old Thai Hand

08-14-08, 17:29

Just remember that your Thai girl is in terms of emotional response and expectations living on what might as well be another planet.

Try having a Thai woman for a boss, if you want to experience a over-rought and melodramatic work environment. It's great fun. :(

Opebo

08-14-08, 17:56

I have a regular who is always hitting me up for extra - very annoying. However the sex is great so I put up with it, while never giving in to any large extent. Sometimes she is so petulant it ruins the sex, other times she just laughs my cheapness off and provides great service. I'd never put up with this in Pattaya, of course, but upcountry, well, I guess I can deal with it.

This tale is another endorsement of brothels as when the girl worked in one she was little trouble, and only wanted 500 or 600 baht. Since she's gone 'independent' she must not get nearly as many customers so she's always squeezing.

Sanook D

08-16-08, 11:51

Try having a Thai woman for a boss, if you want to experience a over-rought and melodramatic work environment. It's great fun. :(

You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din.

Chiefsizzle

08-17-08, 23:10

I hear you on this story...

I have a couple similar stories from my recent trip to LOS. And the lesson I learned from them:

Never underestimate the power of the mamasan/boss of the bar. They can really talk some shit between you and the girls.

I try my best to avoid the bar fines as well. It is usually all good the first few times especially when I meet the girl at a club when she is freelancing after hours. However, eventually, the mamasan will get irritated because she is not getting a cut of whatever money I give the girl.

And the bullshit that they spill into the girl can be so poisonous...no matter how much the girl genuinely likes you. Can never win against the mamasan....only money can. :D

Several months ago, I met a very lovely girl dancing at Sisters a-go-go. It felt like love at first sight. We made eye contact. She smiled so sweetly. I winked and smiled back. Soon she was sitting next to me. We laughed and joked. She touched me so softly. She is so tiny; so feminine. Her smile is radiant; her figure so beautiful. I liked every thing about her – beautiful face, outstanding body, charming personality -- and she speaks pretty good English too.

She asked me to bar fine her. I agreed after she said she liked oral sex. Our first session was nice. I enjoyed licking her soft bald pussy until she climaxed. Her BBBJ technique is mediocre at best, but her face is so pretty she had no trouble at all getting me off. The chemistry was great – wonderful GFE. She gave me her number and became a regular.

When she complained of no customers at Sisters, I suggested she go work at Super Baby. She had no trouble getting that job. When low season came and she complained again about the lack of customers at Super Baby, I suggested another bar that I knew had many customers, and she got that job too. She seemed very grateful for my help. I was happy for her.

Twice a week she always sent me an SMS saying: “How are you, Daddy? I miss you so much.” How sweet. I always invited her to come see me before work for another nice session, and I would give her 1100 baht. Now and then I would bar fine her for 600 baht, give her 1000 after the session, and she was always happy.

Once, she admired a bedside clock in my room, joking that I give it to her. Two weeks later I found another one just like it and presented it to her as we lay in bed. She squealed with delight over the simple gift. Our sessions, though always nice, remained mostly the same without variation. Her BBBJ’s remained mediocre. She didn’t want to change the routine. I was getting bored.

Two weeks ago she sent me another “I miss you so much” message, and I replied that I would see her soon. I went to her bar and bought her a drink. She whined about not having a customer for 14 days. I invited her to come see me the next day. She said: “I don’t know.” I said OK. Then she started bitching at me about not bar fining her. “My friend ask me why he (me) not pay bar for you,” and on and on. I told her straight out that I wanted her to come see me, but I wasn’t going to bar fine her. She stomped off leaving her untouched drink on the table.

A few days later I bought her another drink and she stomped off again after the same conversation. This time I called softly after her: “I don’t want to see you again.”

It’s my favorite bar so I still go there a lot. Now she won’t look at me. She walked right past me once having to squeeze past a table full of customers so that her face was six inches away from mine, but she would not look up at me. She knew I was there. I thought to myself: this girl cares more about her friend’s opinion of her than the 2200 baht I was giving her every week. If she really didn’t care about that, she would look at me and smile, but apparently she does care and she’s not happy. Of course, if she gives in to me she will lose face with her friend. I was touched.

So long, little sweetheart. It was great while it lasted, but you demanded a little too much.

Time to move on to the next one. And the next, and the next.

Thai girls. I love them, but will never understand them.

Kiko8222

08-19-08, 13:42

BlackCoffee

08-22-08, 04:07

Mr Innocent

08-31-08, 01:19

NicFrenchy

09-11-08, 06:09

Agreed, plus I have never really understood the kick behind voyeurism anyway, particularly in a town where real skin on skin is so easily available.

Simple, Most Farangs on Camfrog do not live in LOS and the Thai guys that are there come to pick up girls.

Like sex chat lines, I never really got the point (although being a multi-million dollar industry, there are plenty of paying customers out there) and associated it more with inadequate saddo's wanking in their bedrooms.

Imagine a single, X year old chap sitting at home, horny as hell and connected to the internet... I know there are a lot of movies and pictures available but a lot of guys want to see something new now, and the "live" concept of Camfrog could be exciting to some.

I don't know about you but I get bored after 10 seconds of watching a sex movie.

Now Nic & OTH definately do not fall into this category, so what's the deal? Do these girls emerge from their own fantasy worlds now and then and put out for you guys? Or are many of them pro's on the search for new customers anyway? Or is it simply that you like a spot of voyeurism on the side?

For anyone who has lived in Thailand (lately) the answer is Easy: Thai girls LOVE attention, they just can't get enough of it. Pictures, videos, they love for people to talk about them so being on cam and showing skin while 100's of horny guys masturbate looking at them might be what get their juices flowing.

The sad thing in Thailand (or is it?) is that for every Thai girl there are 4 horny Thai guys going after her. No matter how she looks she will have a few guys courting her looking to get into her pants. Thai guys are Very very good at talking to the ladies and making them believe they are the most beautiful girl they have ever seen: as a result, even an average lookng girl will think she is All That.

There also seems to be plenty of Thai girls on DIA yet I do not recall this avenue of possibility being mentioned, particularly by the ex-pats with more time on their hands. Anyone had any luck in that direction?

I have pulled a lot of girls from Camfrog (and wrote some reports on it) so yes, this is a very successful way of getting girls.

but BEWARE, look at the attached picture and be careful about what you see on these DIA sites LOL. Camfrog's great because with the cam, you can see the whole package right away.

Old Thai Hand

09-12-08, 04:35

I read this on 'Mango Sauce' and thought it was oh so true.

1. Alcohol
Your demur Thai bar girl sweetheart will drink you under the table. However, she won't be satisfied with cheap local brands. Only costly imported beverages hit the spot. A huge duty-free bottle of Bailey's is the one thing that might stop her slaughtering your mini-bar.

2. Sweet shit
Thai bar girls love sugary snacks because prancing around that chromium pole and shagging all your mates requires a lot of energy. Let her shovel it in but remember to dump her before the dental bills arrive.

3. Seafood
Thai food is cheap and delicious but don't expect to taste any. Your Thai bar girl will go seafood-crazy when you foot the bill. Even when already gorged with sweet shit, she can still take on a blue whale. Try to keep smiling when she tells her friends to order whatever they want.

4. Som Tam
Part papaya salad and part incendiary device, a plate of som tam is next on her agenda. You could try some too - to burn the taste of that ghastly blubber out of your mouth.

5. Transport
Even if your room is just across the street, your Thai bar girl isn't going to walk there. The genes that enabled her parents' generation to toil in the rice fields are rarely inherited. To avoid tantrums, call a taxi. Stairs will provoke yet more whining. Make a mental note to buy a magic fucking carpet.

6. Dreadful Thai TV
Once in the room, your Thai bar girl will be straight over to the TV. She can't resist the awful Thai game shows and soap operas. To everyone else they are sheer torture and make the Shopping Channel look like quality entertainment. If you don't have UBC, you are doomed.

7. Games console
There are two activities you can enjoy with your Thai bar girl and this is the other one.

8. Cartoons
Sometimes a man needs his princess to amuse herself quietly. A pile of Thai cartoon magazines will shut her up for hours. Never discard them - they will do for the next girl.

9. Ganja
If you're daft enough to have any weed, your Thai bar girl will save you a long stretch in Thai jail (See Smile, you're in Thai jail) by smoking your entire stash. Afterwards, she will fall into the sleep of the righteous without so much as a thank you blow-job.

10. Gold
Inevitably, the relationship must end when your Thai bar girl asks for gold. She will be walking on air when you take her to the jewellers. Wait until she is thoroughly weighed down with trinkets before you walk out and leave her there. Turn back and enjoy the look of despair on her face. If she gives chase, laugh as the greedy tart is rugby-tackled by the shop's burly guards.