American Women [Archive] - Page 9 - InternationalSexGuide

Who Cares #2

12-18-04, 00:45

I suggest that everyone here read a little book called The Moral Animal (look it up on Amazon. The Economist magazine called it the most important book of insight into humanity since The Origin of Species). It gives a very insightful analysis of how human nature has developed in response to the evolutionary demands of our ancestors. Basically it’s one of the first books in the new science of evolutionary psychology. I’m not saying evolutionary psychology explains everything or makes certain actions right (people are still very complex) but it’s starting to explain a lot of things we know about people. Guys like pretty, young girls because those are the girls who are most likely to have a lot of healthy babies with you. Girls like guys for a lot more reasons because guys had more ways of being successful – being a player, having money, power or fame. So each sex has a different strategy to be successful reproductively and sometimes these strategies come into conflict.

Divorce isn’t an anachronism. The whole idea of marriage to a single other person with monogamy is actually a relatively recent invention. But divorce makes a lot of sense in an evolutionary reproductive view. Anthropologist Helen Fisher has gathered divorce data from 62 societies around the world and founds that "human beings in a variety of societies tend to divorce between the second and fourth years of marriage, with a divorce peak during the fourth year". She also finds that the divorce statistics for the US in 1986 fit the same pattern, with most divorces taking place between the second and third year of marriage.

Fisher's evolutionary explanation attributes the universality of the divorce statistics to the "remarkable correlation between the length of human infancy in traditional societies, about four years, and the length of many marriages, about four years.” She concluded that, “The modern divorce peak--about four years--conforms to the traditional period between human successive births--four years....Like pair-bonding in foxes, robins, and many other species that mate only through a breeding season, human pair bonds originally evolved to last only long enough to raise a single dependent child through infancy, the first four years, unless a second child was conceived.” Incidentally, over 95% of marriages that don’t produce children in the first 3 years ended in divorce.

As for girls screwing every pretty boy punk they can find while they’re young, it’s just part of a strategy to maximize the chances of spreading their genes. Let’s face it, pretty/bad boy players get a lot the babes. They’re the most likely to have a lot of kids. Those genes are then most likely to get spread. The downside to having the pretty/bad boy as a father is that they usually make lousy fathers to the kids--that’s where marrying us nice guys comes in. The optimal strategy for the woman to spread her genes would be to have kids with the pretty/bad boys (who have the potential to screw a lot of people) but have a stable/nice guy who can provide a lot of resources help raise the brats. That 10% figure for kids not belonging of the father is correct but it’s much higher in many other areas. In the more urban areas of cities, that figure is actually 25%! Think how many girls get knocked-up by a player and then bed some schmoe the next week who then ends up raising that little bastard. Studies also show that the type of guy a girl finds attractive varies with her cycle. When she’s most fertile, she wants the bad boy player but just two weeks later it’s Mr. Nice who’s her favorite.

Guys shouldn't kid themselves about how many woman cheat. They are better at getting away with it because most of guys are working so damn hard. The figures I’ve seen says 55% of guys cheat on their wives while 25% of wives cheat on their husbands. (Heck, there’s this woman in the office who is so f’ing brazen about it. She’s Chinese and 1/4 white and has been married some white dude 8 years ago-don't assume Chinese women stay traditional in the US. I see her with her Chinese boyfriend of 9 years way more often than with her husband. She was so relieved when the baby looked like her husband.) Of course this info wasn’t known when almost all states enacted laws that say any kid born during the marriage belonged to the father. That’s true in most cases, but we didn’t have DNA comparison technology until very recently. Some of those laws might get changed if enough men with balls do something about it.

Who Cares #2

12-18-04, 01:34

I also have a pet theory as to why American woman are such spoiled princesses. It's not just because we treat them so well in dating but it's because of how we raise them. Do any of you have daughters? I don't but I practically raised my sister. We want the best for our kids and that includes our daughters. We teach them to expect and demand the best both in terms of personal treatment and the rights they expect from society at large. (Title IX is only part of the proof.) Sometimes parents go overboard in this regard and the girl turns into a brat (but they probably would've been a b*tch anyway). I'm not saying that girls should have equal rights or be free to do what they want, I'm just saying that a percentage of spoiled women is the price we pay for that.

I don't mean to be insulting but I'll come out and say it. Some of the guys here are complaining about shoddy treatment from women do so because they're suckers, jerks or losers. Hell, I'm probably the biggest loser here. I never had a real girlfriend. I've got more issues than Newsweek because of the horrific physical and emotional abuse I recieved from when I was a kid till I was a teen. I've suffered suicidal bouts of double depression cause of all that stuff. Despite all that I still manage to put myselft through grad school but all that working and studying meant I'm still a virgin at 27. Which is why I've had to resort to "professional help" although I haven't gotten FS since it would probably just depress me further knowing that I had to pay for FS my first time). All the women in my life have only wanted to be friends but I don't blame them for anything--many have been supportive as friends. So on to my point: I've seen way more women abused and treated much, much worse than what guys here complain about coming from women. Much of it was eye-witness stuff because it was happening to my mom. (Hell, some of my depression stems from the fact that I'm the son of such an asshole.) Do divorce laws favor women too much? Yes but 75% of guys don't even pay any of the child-support they're suppose to. I'm sure that guys here have been unjustly screwed by women. I'm just trying to give some perspective as to why some good women are wary of men.

The only women I can't stand are the god-damn wh*res who constantly complain about not being able to find a nice guy. There are plenty around. I'm a nice, hard-working, smart, funny guy you wh*res keep saying you want to find before you go f*ck those drunk frat boys. For some reason women love to talk to me (as a friend of course) so I'm the one who always has to hear those complaints. Well not anymore you wh*res. You women are the gatekeepers of that vagina, you're the ones who should know what sort of pricks you're letting in. My reponse to every complaint in that regard will be, "You deserved it. You were stupid and you deserved to be played. What the hell else were expecting? Get away from me you wh*re. Don't expect me to be your fallback position. Find some other idiot to be your baby's daddy." I will no longer serve as an emotional ***** (check out http://www.laddertheory.com/ratingsystem.htm for a definition of the term and to learn more about what women are really like) for my women acquiantances.

Rock Dog

12-18-04, 05:42

Re: All the recent posts.

This subject of marriage seems to be bringing out some very strong emotions in some of our WSG members. No exception here, but as I was reading some of these posts I decided to "step back" and think about what I was feeling.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to the idea of getting married. However, isn't it obvious that marriage isn't for everyone? Why even bother to get married anyways? Does one need to be married to get laid? For that matter, do you even need a girlfriend? For companionship? Maybe, but I get the same kind of commitment from a long-term girlfriend without the shitty (and legally-binding) hassles that come with being married.

Why are women somehow "better" when they're just your girlfriend? Maybe it's because they don't have that certainty that they've GOT you. Maybe it's because they still need you somehow.

On the flip side, it occurs to me that the best thing to do might be to let some other guy do the marrying. Then you could be the one to come along and fuck her while the other guy pays the bills. Not exactly my style, but hey..... this would probably work pretty good for some guys.

I've always held off on getting married myself precisely because of the things I've seem my best friends going through. The exact same things that have been discussed in all of the recent posts.

If I found the right girl I'd defintely go for it. However Sinanju brings up a pretty good point. Often, you never know for sure about someone until it's too late. If that ever happened to me, I think I'd just go back to doing what I do now and travel the world sampling the variety until I'm too old to get it up anymore. If it wasn't for wanting to have some kids someday, there'd be no reason why any right-thinking man would ever want to get married.

Rock

PS. Donald Trump, he may know business, but what a dumb fucking schmuck when it comes to women. I see he's looking to get married AGAIN.

PPS: And don't start yakking on about how he's got a pre-nup. She's still gonna take him for a bundle.

Daddy Rulz

12-18-04, 07:58

Same thing here in Texas, I read an article in Texas monthly about a bunch of guys that are still under court orders to pay child support for children they didn't Fater. The rational being "undue hardship on the single mother (fucker)" because in most of the cases the biological Father (sperm doner) couldn't be found. I wonder how long this situation would last if it were possible for the gender issue to be turned. Can you see a judge saying "Yes Ma'am the court knows you didn't bear this child however you must support it regardless." When pigs fucking fly!

Personally if I had found out that my son was not my biological child after a number of years I would have continued to pay regardless of the legal issues. Mine is an unusuall case, his mom was a a ***** before I married her (please don't ask me why I did, I was much younger and stupider) and a bigger ***** during the marriage but after the fact not so much. Probably because I didn't hesitate to tell her to shut up during a rant, hang up on her as needed and told her when she was being a ***** after we divorced.

Perhaps a lesson there.

We get along well, she never played access games and we never used my son as a weapon against the other. (If I would have gotten periodic blow jobs she probably would have been the perfect ex wife) So him neing my son is much more a relationship issue than a biological one.

The guys I feel for are those poor fucks that just thought they were getting some pussy and ended up paying WAY more than 150 pesos.

My 02

Sinanju Master

12-18-04, 16:27

Who Cares #2,
A lot of the points you made that required stepping back for perspective -- I'll give you that. Don't get me wrong: I may spray venom regarding these b*tches who have no problem with displaying a confusing duplicity, but it's only 'cos I played by the rules for so long layed out by the parental units; treat women with respect, courtesy, blah blah blah... it only got me the role as "friend". Now, whenever I hear an attractive woman whine about her b/f, I just instantly cut her off by saying: "I'm not your girlfriend. I'm only interested in getting into your pants". That will stop that shit COLD. If the REMOTE possibility exists that said whining princess admires such cojones and acquiesces, so be it, but such a reply is intended to stop her from wasting my time.

As for your "nice guy" issue, I feel your pain. Whenever I'm in a social setting and I hear women whine about this bullshit of wanting a nice guy, I just wanna call them on it by asking if they've ever fallen for a guy they INSTINCTIVELY knew was WRONG for them. In the same breath, I want to ask them how many times they've turned down a guy that is level-headed, has a good job and is steady as a rock. More than likely, they don't have enough fingers and toes to count them.

Rock Dog,

Sometimes, I'm such a clueless bonehead that I experience a "Eureka" moment when I come out of it. Your idea of flipping it around and letting SOMEONE ELSE do the marrying (and harvesting the crop) while I plant the seed is utter simple brilliance.

Dickhead

12-18-04, 17:48

The male bears 100% of the responsibility for contraception, as does the female. Yes, I know that adds up to 200% but if you are going to fuck someone you don't know very well, why would you believe her if she says she is on the pill, not at the fertile time of her cycle, surgically sterile, or whatever? I am surgically sterile but constantly surprised at the number of women who are willing to believe me when I tell them this. Down here in BA, after about the fifth time you are with a woman she will usually suggest doing it without a condom and will tell you that you are the only one she is doing with that way. Yeah, right. Then in the US a lot of women, especially older ones, are insulted if you want to use a rubber, like you are implying they have some disease (which of course you are).

The bottom line is that if you fuck them and do so with no contraception, then you should pay to support the little bastard for 18 years. However laws saying that you are responsible for whatever kids are born during your marriage regardless of whether they are yours, are just another obvious argument against marriage.

PsyberZombie

12-19-04, 15:11

New Bound asked =

If an American guy gets an American women pregnant, and they are not married-- can the guy be held liable for child support or other payments?

Joe already told you the Basic Answer = YES!! , but that's not even the whole story

If you are ever legally declared the father of some brat , the Federal and State Governments here will track you down like a common criminal for 18 yrs if you fall behind on your court·ordered payments

Every time you fill out a W-4 form for a job ; win a State Lottery Jack·pot ; recieve a Worker's Comp settlement ; win a Judgement in a state or federal lawsuit ; or any other way that brings you , money , and Big Brother together = your Social Security number will be run ; and any arrears you owe will be deducted automatically and forwarded to the kid's mom so she can buy drugs and booze

Usually you hear stories from the perspective of the guy getting screwed , like Joe's friend
But it works the other way , too =

One chick I know was divorced from a guy who always worked 'under the table' on the rare occasions he was sober enough towork at all . He never paid a dime of child support for his kids in over ten years ; plus he had moved to another state far away which made hounding him in Family Court nearly impossible

One day he got seriously hurt on the job and was laid up for over a year waiting for his Worker's Comp settlement [ his 'un·documented' status slowed the process down , but didn't matter in the end ]

With medical bills and lost wages , he was awarded over *** $$ 60,000 *** , but when he got the Check , it was for less than Ten Grand !! 'They' had dutifully deducted the Child Support he owed and mailed it to Momma , who promptly bought a new car and took a vacation to Hawaii ; while the guy ended up getting evicted and living in a home·less shelter !!

All this reminds me of a Joke =

Have you heard about the new Morning After Pill for Men ??

It changes your Blood Type !!

Spike

12-19-04, 16:23

Your posts are excellent and the statistics you quote are eye-opening, but I come to a slightly different conclusion. I think the biological imperative for BOTH genders dictates the necessity of a strong partnership in child rearing way past the 4th year of life for the child.

I don't think a mother/child unit reaches optimum viability until the child attains the age of 10 years old, maybe more. This would be particularly true in a "primitive" society. Any earlier and the child would be too much of a burden on the survivability of the un-aided mother, thereby limiting her contribution to the gene pool. Marriage is simply a way of formalizing the bond between father and mother for the purpose of enhancing survival of offspring.

Marriage, as an institution, certainly favors the mother. It attempts to restrict and control the biological imperative of the father. That is why women (in the past) resorted to cooking, cleaning and readily/regularly available sex to keep their partners around after child birth. In historical societies where polygamy was the accepted norm, the oldest wife was traditionally the senior member of the household. It was common for a man to take a younger wife for purposes of sex (reproduction) while retaining the older woman as advisor and manager of the household.

From the male perspective, the biological imperative is to f*ck women and kill other men. Killing other men is easier when you have someone who will prepare a meal and tend to a nice warm place to eat it.

Raising children is easier for the woman if she has someone around who will kill other men. The limited reproductive capacity of a woman is best served when she can conserve what offspring she has until they reach a level of maturity sufficient to protect themselves. In the "old days" it was common for warriors to kill the offspring of their vanquished foes. From the male perspective, this limited competition in the gene pool, but it is NOT in the best interests of the mother because it was a waste of her limited "reproductive potential".

The problem in our modern society is that we no longer need men in the way we used to need them. WE have become unnecessary, at least in our modern society. Sure, there are still wars, and we still need to kill other men, but wars are now based on vague geo-political principles as opposed to the old "man to man" direct conflicts. Even worse, we are now allowing our women to fight for us!! Women thusly need us less and less (and so they are taught), are becoming more and more independent, and are therefore no longer restrained by any social or cultural boundaries. Men are still trying to do the same old thing with a shrinking pool of women who will appreciate it; women can now do anything with no negative consequence. Maybe that is one reason so many of us seem to favor women from less "developed" countries; those women are much closer socially and culturally to the time when a man was a valued commodity.

This is a theoretical "work in progress". Sorry for rambling.

Spike, out...

Sinanju Master

12-19-04, 17:29

The Old Days, huh? Hm... Gee, I kinda like the idea of delivering a deathblow to my opponent's ribcage, watching the life ebb from his body and then taking his woman from the stunned village as my own for all to see!

Seriously though, the women who feel that they don't need men all eventually experience a moment of weakness. AND who is the FIRST one to start whining about not having any help raising the little rugrat when they fail to live up to their Superwoman ideal? WOMEN!

Joe Zop

12-19-04, 18:55

I've gotta admit, PZ, that reading your example of the woman who ended up raising two kids on her own for ten years while her ex basically drank and ignored any responsibility for the kids he produced didn't give me much sympathy for the guy and frankly made me feel she eminently deserved a new car and Hawaii vacation. The small percentage of guys who don't deal with it simply mess over the kids they produce by not taking proper care of them, which by extension ends up screwing me, as I'm part of society that foots the bill for someone else's messed up or deprived kids. The issue in child support is not the guy or the woman, it's the kids, and if you're not gonna pay for who you produce then either wear a condom, get snipped, or keep it zipped up.

I absolutely agree that men very often get screwed in the support and custody situation, (especially given one report I read says that 50% of divorced mothers see no reason for kids' continued contact with their fathers and 40% have interfered with visitation) but the truth also is that most guys step up to the plate -- 75% of fathers pay their child support (though about 24% of those aren't managing the full amount) and in the cases where there is some sort of joint custody the father is up-to-date on payments over 90% of the time, and it's close to 80% if the father has at least some timeshare. Low compliance (around 44.5%) happens when the father has no access at all to the kids. And of the women who don't get child support, 22% said it was because they didn't want it, and 14.5% said they didn't pursue it because the father wasn't able to pay. (Source of stats: Federal report "Child Support and Alimony," U.S. Department of Commerce and the Bureau of the Census.) Even in 60% of the cases where the father is behind in payments when the family is on public assistance, he's working to catch up.

And for what it's worth, non-custodial mothers totally default on support to the rare custodial fathers 46.9% of the time, compared to men's 26.9% default rate.

Intriguing stuff, Spike. Thanks.

Rock Dog

12-20-04, 00:01

JZ makes a simple, yet brilliant point in his recent post. Just take one or two precautionary steps and don't get the woman pregnant in the first place! What was it that someone once said? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

It's bad enough when they try to get their hooks into you just for living together for too long.

There was a post by Darius32 (I think that's his handle) where he mentioned having a woman in the Dominican Republic. He goes back and forth to visit. That's probably a good idea when you consider the potential cost of an unintended pregnancy. Lawyers bills, child support hassles and all that other crap for 18 years. I haven't worked out the numbers, but wouldn't it be cheaper to do it the way Darius is doing?

How much is the average support bill anyways? I was also wondering how they calculate it. it wouldn't surprise me if guys that earn more might get stuck with a higher payment.

Rock

Who Cares #2

12-22-04, 03:14

Spike, thanks for the compliment. I think you’re looking at the viability issue a little wrong. Kids are surprisingly intelligent and adaptable. Today, in the Smoky Mountain trash dump in the Philippines, there are kids younger than 4 who can scavenge for food by themselves. The other problem is that I think you’re comparing today’s standard of what constitutes viability with what was required for viability during evolution in our ancestral environment.

As radical as this sounds, monogamous marriage is actually more beneficial to the average man. Consider how famous, wealthy, powerful people are for all intents and purposes, polygamous. They get as much tang as they want, whenever they want and if polygamy was legal, that would be a whole lot less women for the rest of us. Serial monogamy is the same thing; that is tang the rest of us aren’t getting. So monogamy actually forces the elite people that engage in that ‘hogging’ behavior to share potential wives with the rest of us.

Polygamy is actually better in some ways for women. Hypothetically, let’s rank 1000 guys 1 to 1000 and 1000 women from 1 to 1000. Number one guy gets number one girl (I know real life isn’t this simple but this is just a thought experiment). Now let’s look at girl number 100. If polygamy were legal, she could move up the ladder and say get guy number 5. She’s better off by having the 5th best guy available. Girl number five isn’t going to notice much of a difference in the resources she now has available but she’s only a little worse off. The one person who is royally screwed in this move is guy number 100. In our monogamous society, those moves up and down the ladder aren’t permanent. So the strategy for those predatory women is to get the baby of the alpha males and make him or some other schmoe pay. (So keep it under wraps folks for everyone's benefit.)

Polygamy is part of what’s wrong with the Middle East (that and they marry their cousins at a 50% rate in many countries), their supply of tang is so skewed, it has wrecked their whole culture and society. They’ve got people killing themselves and others to try and get some sex in the afterlife.

Spike

12-22-04, 03:15

In California, child support is based on the percentage of time the child spends with each parent, then factored proportionately into the combined income of the two parents. The formula is set in stone and isn't adjusted unless there are chldren from other relationships involved (there is a "hardship" adjustment for the parent with these other children).

The system is fair in theory, but in practice, the court is much more likely to favor the mother in subtle ways. For instance, my ex works as a "hobby"; she doesn't care what she is paid, so she actually accepts pay CUTS with a smile! She doesn't want to work, so she manipulates the system to minimize her earnings. In my case, though, because I have 100% custody, a percentage of ANYTHING she makes goes to child support. I wouldn't take her money if I were starving, but I want the kids to have it and they won't touch it either.

Dickhead

12-22-04, 08:30

So if you take WC2's last post seriously, the obvious solution is polyandry. However his math is interesting. If you assume each polygamous man gets the same number of wives, Number 1 guy will get gals 1 through "n" with "n" being the number of wives each guy takes, Number 2 will get gals #(n+1) through 2n, etc. leaving Gal #100 with guy 100/n. So if gal #100 can move up to guy #5 that implies 20 wives for each guy.

But I think what would happen, and does happen, is that guy #1 gets more wives than guy #2, who gets more wives than guy #3, and so forth. Now my question is: is this self perpetuating or self destructing? I mean, guy #1 will have more children than guy #2, who will have more than guy #3, all else equal. Does that mean that guy #1's wealth gets diluted more than guy #1000's, leveling the playing field? Or does it mean that guy #1's kids become the next generation's guy #1 through "x," with "x" being the number of average children and guy #2's kids become the next generation's (x + 1) through 2x?

The answer obviously depends on whether agnatic primogeniture, primogeniture, gavelkind, or partite inheritance (also known as partible succession) is being practiced. Since (male and not agnactic) primogeniture tends to be the norm in polygamous societies, we lean towards guy #1's first son being next generation's #1 and guy #2's first born being next generation's #2 and et cetera. And, all the younger sons are fucked. All the daughters are also fucked, both metaphorically and also actually by all the disenfranchised brothers and cousins.

Go to Colorado City, Arizona to experience the effects of this first hand. Primogeniture is really fucked and it ruined Ireland just as much as did the potato famine. Compare to France where gavelkind and partite inheritance (introduced after the French Revolution) led to improvements in horticulture and especially vinticulture (due to the need for increased efficiency brought on by the diseconomies of scale of smaller plots of land).

However, WC2's conclusion only tends to support the postulate that monogamous marriage is better than polygamous marriage, while failing to address the more trenchant question of whether marriage itself is worth a shit.

Who Cares #2

12-22-04, 20:47

Dickhead,

I was being a little facetious in my last post. I just wanted to point out that no system is really perfect and wasn't really suggesting that we adopt any specific marital system. What I really wanted to talk about was how successful reproductive strategies of the past shaped our evolution as a species. Even if those various inheritence systems screws over the other sons and daughters, the point is that person is still producing a lot of sons and daughters and allows at least one son the opportunity to produce just as many. Each individual has to sort out how they want to live for themselves but I think we would all be better off if we understood how we developed. I know of several people with multiple 'wives' who have a dozen or more kids - my maternal grandfather has two wives, 14 kids and 20 grandkids and counting.

Consider that Ghengis Khan is one of the most prolific men in history. About 16 million men carry his Y chromosomes today, about .5% of the world's population and that doesn't include his daughters. Muhammad might have come close although he didn't conquer as much territory or women. http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/8/214236/6651 Those are the type of people that we came from because those are the type of people who were best able to 'spam' their genes as widely as possible into the world.

But back to American women who are really no different than women anywhere else. They want the best mate possible but in the US the bar is set pretty high because we have a lot of media. Every girl is trying to get a Brad Pit, a Larry Ellison, or a Tom Brady. Girls in other countries also want an alpha male with a lot of resources but their perspective as to what a lot of resources and what constitutes an alpha male isn't as skewed as it is here in the US. Or rather, the average guy from the US might as well be as good looking as Pit and as wealthy as Ellison in comparison to some third world country girls' fellow male countrymen. Americans have more money, live in a nicer country, and are much more civlized (or wussified depending on your view) than guys pretty much anywhere else.

Rock Dog

12-23-04, 06:24

Hey there DH,

Please don't take this the wrong way but, that post of yours kind of left me more confused afterwards than I was before I read it.

Maybe it's just me but I had a bit of a hard time with this part...
"Number 1 guy will get gals 1 through "n" with "n" being the number of wives each guy takes, Number 2 will get gals #(n+1) through 2n, etc. leaving Gal #100 with guy 100/n. So if gal #100 can move up to guy #5 that implies 20 wives for each guy."

Also gavelkind, agnatic(agnactic?), I consider myself to possess a fairly extensive vocabulary and even I don't know what those words mean.

As for polygamy and polyandry, it seems self evident that if you assume a roughly 50/50 male to female ratio, for every guy that gets more than one woman, there will have to be another guy who won't be able to get one.
If you have polyandry the same thing will happen with all the unattractive women. Oddly enough, this isn't that far off from the situation that we currently have.

As for the first son of the first wife inheriting everything, it's a moot point since we don't have polygamy (or polyandry) here and likely never will.

A combination of these two systems would, in my opinion, lead to a free-for-
all with everyone desperately trying to hook up with the most desirable members of the opposite sex in great interlocking chains of matrimony.

As to the trenchant question regarding marriage itself, I do believe it's worth it. At least it is the first time you do it. After that, I consider it to be nothing more than a very expensive (and legally-binding) form of dating.

My 2 cents for today

Rock

ps. Maybe I can't have two wives, but how about hiring a couple of full-time live-in maids? Then I could bang them both all the time. That would be legal and a lot more un than being married. Does anyone here know of anyone who's tried this?

PsyberZombie

12-23-04, 12:50

Joe Zop writes =

The issue in child support is not the guy or the woman, it's the kids, and if you're not gonna pay for who you produce then either wear a condom, get snipped, or keep it zipped up.

Your 'get snipped' comment leads me to tell the following Cautionary Tale

The Wise Monger always assumes that the P4P gals we deal with are thieves , liars and con artists
[ except for RN , natch = she's a saint ]

But most amateur women will also take you for a ride if they can

Yours Truly 'got snipped' about 17 years ago ; and ~ 15 yrs ago I met this hot little blond through a business contact ; and we really got along well and soon found our·selves drunk and in bed 'making the beast with two backs'

The subject of Contra·ception never came up = obviously I wasn't worried about it , and she didn't mention it either

[ Usually , when a woman freebie doesn't mention contra·ception , that means they're on The Pill .
Just *pray* that 'The Pill' isn't AZT !! ]

Well , Lo and Behold! About six weeks later , she calls me in a very distressed state and wants to meet me 'to talk'

At the meeting , she is tearful and upset , because she's Pregnant !!!

I congratulate her , but just delivering that News wasn't the Real Reason she wanted to see me

The Real Reason , it turns out , is that she wants $$$$ to pay for an Abortion , which she insists she can't afford

My turn =

"Uhhhhh... I'm very sorry you feel that way about your Baby , but I had a vasectomy three years and so can't possibly be the Father and so I hope you'll forgive me for not contributing to your Abortion Fund . I'd recommend you talk to the Real Father and hit him up for some Cash "

Man , the look on her face at that point was price·less !!

Even though 'that Look' made me suspect that I had just narrowly dodged a Scam , I ultimately chalked that one up as a Real Dilemma for the gal . But then two years later the Exact Same Scenario happened !!

It was only then that I realized for sure that there is a sub·set of women con·artists who seduce guys and then extort money from them using this 'Preggers Scam'

A woman doing this only a few times a year can easily afford a Jaguar instead of a Chevy Escargot ; not to mention the mental satisfaction a good Con Artist always feels when they've successfully fleeced yet another Sucker

Cash Works

12-23-04, 15:29

If you're a parent, you must pay your fair share. It's not about the ex, it's about the kid, who didn't ask to be put in the middle of any dispute you may have with your ex.

Unfortunately, the parent who has custody winds up being the administrator / manager of any child support payments that they receive and sometimes, the parent uses the money to buy something for theirself rather than the kid. I still say this is not a reason to stop paying, but rather ammunition to use against the ex whenever you go back to court for a child support/custody hearing.

Spike,

A couple of posts back, you mentioned that you "refuse to accept" any child support payments from your ex but also mentioned that somewhere down the road you might take her to court to get all the back payments in a lump sum - GOOD LUCK! If she ever made any attempt to pay you (and she has documentation) & you refused the payment, I'm pretty sure she could use that one refusal as grounds for never paying. At best, I think the court would make her start paying from the time you started asking her to pay, but back pay may be out of the question due to your refusal of an attempt at payment. She would of course, need a good lawyer.

Happy Holidays everyone,

CW

Dickhead

12-23-04, 17:02

Gavelkind is when all the sons share equally in the estate. Agnactic primogeniture is when the oldest child gets everything whether that child is male or female. Traditional primogeniture is when the oldest son gets everything. Partite inheritance is when all the kids, both male and female, share equally.

Gavelkind was the norm in England prior to the Norman conquest. After that they went to male primogeniture. The effect of this is to leave the large landed estates intact, strengthening the gentry class (or at least not weakening it). When France went to partite inheritance in the aftermath of the Revolution, this meant that every time a patriarch (or matriach) died, the land got divided up and that led to agricultural diseconomies of scale. The French responded by increasing their efficiency to compensate (all though some may feel that "French efficiency" is a bit of an oxymoron, especially those who have ever owned a French car).

While the US does not have primogeniture, there is still a bias towards it. The eldest son is the most likely to inherit the family business or the family farm, for example. So, to tie it in to the subject at hand, he can command a premium in the marriage market. Also it often happens (more so in other countries, but it still happens in the US) that the family runs out of money to educate the younger children. That happened in my own family. The effect of primogeniture, whether explicit or implicit, is to increase the level of social and economic stratification.

Economic status is relative of course, and whereas in the US I was not wealthy enough to interest too many women, down here they are throwing themselves at me right and left in hopes of gaining financial security. Lots of luck, ladies!

BTW I actually had a woman go so far as to sue me for paternity, even though I am vasectomized. I let the (prohibited word) waste money on lawyers and court costs and then I showed the medical records and up to date lab results. It was great.

Joe Zop

12-23-04, 17:55

I've got a friend who was hit twice by abortion requests and found a great way to defuse things: he said he would pay the clinic directly when they went there, as of course he wouldn't be so ungentlemanly as to let her go alone. His take was that in the event she really was pregnant he was also cutting down worrier for the future. In one case it was a scam that quickly fell apart and in the other he ended up at the clinic (and a few weeks later back in bed, this time with a condom, with the same woman, who felt he was "emotionally supportive.")

On the other hand, folks here are always bemoaning the fact that it's a pain to get AW to have sex without prolongued hassle, so if you do find someone who will do so easily I suppose it shouldn't be a major surprise if another guy finds her as well. If a girl's going bareback these days she's asking clearly not someone who worries a lot about the possibility of future bad news.

PZ, given that the "pregnant scam" is a time-honored way of generating marriage, I guess it's no surprise it's also used for economic gain.

Who Cares #2

12-23-04, 22:35

Sinanju Master

12-24-04, 04:02

All this talk reminds me of when I was channel surfing and I came upon Reno 911 (I THINK that's what it's called) and a female officer got knocked up. One officer asked another who the father was and the guy looked around for a phone book. He couldn't find one, but he said: "If there was a phone book here, just pic a page and you'd probably find the father". I laffed HARD at that one.

DH's patience to pull off that HILARIOUS bombshell (IN COURT NO LESS!!) that eventually exposed the plaintiff as a gold-digging ho is a CLASSIC! He HAD to have strutted around the rest of the day with a large grin on his face thinking: "IN YOUR FACE, B*TCH!!"

Rock Dog

12-24-04, 04:58

GawwwDAMN!

My face turned red when I saw those last few posts. That almost happened to me back when I was 21 years old. This girl I'd been screwing came after me shortly after we broke up. She had this friend who was a total C*nt from hell.

I used to have a job at a fast food joint and one night the friend phoned me up while I was working. She told me that so-and-so is pregnant and if I didn't want to be a father and get stuck paying support, I'd have to cough up the bucks to pay for her abortion. I was young, stupid, and scared shitless... so I did the dumbest thing imaginable. I told her the exact truth. "Where am I supposed to get money for that?" I said, " I just work at this craphole for minimum wage and I haven't even got fifty bucks right now!"

Well, I guess that must have worked, because I never heard from her again. I saw my ex-girlfriend about a year later and there was absolutely no mention at all about any pregnancy or abortion or anything. It wasn't until I read Joe Zop and PsyberZ's posts that I realized that they tried the same thing on me.

WSG, who knew it could be so educational?

Rock

ps. Dickhead, thanks for the extra info. It helped make a lot more sense out of your previous post. With that word agnactic, I might just be the new scrabble world champion :).

PsyberZombie

12-24-04, 13:16

This happened here in my own neighborhood in Warwick

One of my friends , a guy we affectionately call Rusty Scupper , threw this big Christmas Party for all the neighbors at his Georgian manse

At the party , as will happen at these affairs , Vino led to Veritas and one of the younger of the couples began bemoaning their lack of a Child ; and how medical testing determined that it was a problem with the Husband that was to blame

Some·one suggested Artificial Insemination ; some·one else suggested Rusty him·self be the Donor

Rusty is very wealthy and successful and would generally fit any·one's definition of an 'Alpha Male' , so the couple approached him about it

"Okay" , Rusty sez "But none of that 'artificial' stuff... it's gotta be done the 'old·fashioned' way to work right" .
Yeah , Right... the woman was a little Hottie , and I'm sure that had some·thing to do with Rusty's 'Logic'

The Couple agreed , and the next time the woman was ovulating [ it's very easy to determine this ] , the husband took a Loooong Walk and Rusty dropped by to 'do his duty'

The woman did Not get pregnant , though ; so a 'date' was arranged for the following month .... and then the next month ; and then the next

After six months of this Plan not working , the guy got really depressed

He was in a Bar with some mutual friends of us all , and sez =

" I just don't under·stand why this isn't working "

One of the friends says =

" May·be it's because Rusty had a Vasectomy twenty years ago "

... which he had , in fact !!!

Boy , would I have loved to be a fly on the wall the next time those three got together !!

Spike

12-26-04, 21:28

GREAT post, Dr. Math!! The missing link, though (alluded to by WhoCares in his follow up) is the varying definition of "Alpha Male". There are many standards by which a male human can be adjudged worthy by a female of the species and WC lists many of them, but, as is the case with Ghengis Khan (pronounced "jengis" if you are a democrat), the ultimate selector isn't what a woman wants. The cold harsh biology is that the dominant male will be most successful.

Males in civilized society simply aren't killing each other off as much as they used to. That is the ultimate biological selector; the less capable are killed by the most capable, and the most capable spreads his genetic material to as many women as he can get his hands on. This is the biological imperative.

Spike

12-26-04, 21:41

but my ex has never made any effort to pay anything. She was only too happy to take MY money, but now it's like she's never been to court.

You may be right about her avoiding future payment, but not for the reason you think. There is still a great institutional bias against men in the system, even though the system is supposed to be fair. I can document cases of men who have actually PAID child support directly to the "little woman" only to have to pay again because the court wasn't happy with the form/timeliness/documentation of such payments. I have never heard of this happening to a woman.

Who Cares: Legal principles aside, I suspect things may be different in different jurisdictions. I have never actually REFUSED payment, certainly not through the courts, but she just hasn't made any. In my county, support payments are collected through the Family Support Department. All payments go through them upon request of the custodial parent. I've just never requested it. Also, support payments aren't treated like any "normal" indebtedness. Because the money actually belongs to the minor child and is only adminstered by the custodial parent, there is no statute of limitations and no penalty for misappropriation of those funds. By definition, the custodial parent is assumed to have the best interests of the child/ren at heart. That was the state of the law locally as recently as 5 years ago. It may have changed, and it is always subject to judicial "interpretation".

Ngp477

12-27-04, 00:29

It's a legal principle called equitable estoppel. If you refuse the right to receive payment (technically it's the child's money) then not only would the mom not have to pay, but theoretically the court could order you to make-up any potential difference since you're essentially mishandling the child's right to the money.

The child is the one who has the right to the money, even when he turns 18 if not paid he or she can sue to recover.

The wrong of one parent, in not collecting or going after the child support is not imputed to the child and does not bar an action on the child's behalf, whether by the custodial parent, a governmental agency or whomever has a right to reimbursal or collection.

The court would have no reason to order a custodial parent to make-up what the other parent was ordered to pay. Where did you get this lame-brained idea? The judge could only order the payor to pay, either to the custodial parent or the child (if over 18) or any welfare agency that paid to support the child during his minority, for reimbursal.

Furthermore, a custodial parent cannot waive or give up the child's right to support. It is a right vested in the child and can be enforced by anyone who has the parental right to do so, or the child himself after age 18.

PsyberZombie

12-27-04, 12:32

Every guy who's interested in picking up chicks for a 'freebie' is familiar with the concept of the 'Wing Man'

There have even been Beer commercials dedicated to this self·less soul ; and every guy is Duty·bound to take on the role of Wing Man at least once at some point in his life

The down·side of the Wing Man is = every chick out there is *also* familiar with the concept , and they immediately see right through it

So now comes the WING WOMAN , and you can even hire her for the evening !!

http://www.wingwomen.com/NewYorkTimesArticle.html

Actually , this concept isn't new = back in the day when my brothers and I used to hit the Singles Scene , we used to always drag our sister along for this very effect

My sister , who we affectionately call FELLATIA , is a stunning blond who has been compared to many famous actresses & models , but who is a real döppelganger for actress / singer Susan Anton , always broke the ice for us with chicks we'd end up meating [ and No , that last word is NOT a mis·spelling ]

Now , the concept of *hiring* a Wing·Woman seems bizzare to Yours Truly =
if yer gonna pay a woman , why not just make it a P4P deal with a Pro and skip the middle·man , and all the extra Time and Effort involved ??

And why should you have to pay a Wing Woman ?? You know how women are always wanting to be 'friends' ?? [ And I don't just mean women you've dated who've broken up with you ; I mean women in your day·to·day life ]

Cultivate and Cherish these 'friend·ships' , Gentle·men , for Two Reasons =

First : she may eventually introduce you to some·one you really want to get it on with , and

Second : this 'friend' can be invited out —— preferably not just the two of you ; but in a group ——to prowl the Club and Bar scene , with her serving as your very own , *free* Wing Woman

Heck , she's an 'Equal' , Right ?? So make her pay her own Cover Charges , and take her turn in the Rounds of Drinks rotation , too

And at the end of the night , Don't forget to tell her what a Great Friend she is = especially if she's your Designated Driver

Who Cares #2

12-28-04, 01:11

The child is the one who has the right to the money, even when he turns 18 if not paid he or she can sue to recover.

The wrong of one parent, in not collecting or going after the child support is not imputed to the child and does not bar an action on the child's behalf, whether by the custodial parent, a governmental agency or whomever has a right to reimbursal or collection.

The court would have no reason to order a custodial parent to make-up what the other parent was ordered to pay. Where did you get this lame-brained idea? The judge could only order the payor to pay, either to the custodial parent or the child (if over 18) or any welfare agency that paid to support the child during his minority, for reimbursal.

Furthermore, a custodial parent cannot waive or give up the child's right to support. It is a right vested in the child and can be enforced by anyone who has the parental right to do so, or the child himself after age 18.I wrote my last post very badly. Everything you say is right about it being the child's money and I was actually trying to emphasize that point since it appeared that the other poster was playing games and messing around by not accepting the ex-wife's money. My friend's uncle screwed himself over by refusing the ex-wife's money. He told his ex-wife that he didn't need her money and that he would pay all of their children's expenses. He did pay for everything but later when he was having financial difficulties, he then wanted the ex to pay him back for all the money he had shelled out. She argued equitable-estoppel and the court sided with her. The point I was actually trying to make is that if you don't accept the ex's money and later the ex can't pay-up, the kid might be able to sue you for the money. Of course it all depends on the law in your jurisdiction.

Smut Villain

12-28-04, 03:16

Guys, don't scoff at Psyberzombie's suggestion. The "wing woman" concept has been used quite a few times, and to great effect. Hell, I still use it myself (when I get the rare chance to do it), and it (almost) never fails.

If you think about how women (especially American women) think, then you'll understand why it works: if they see a dude out with some hottie, then they seem to come to some conclusion that this guy is, in some way, desirable. I've seen the same effect with guys wearing fake wedding rings (me knowing damn well they're not married). For these women it's as if seeing that some chick actually "wants" you makes it okay for them to think of you as a decent catch. In my part of the world the term for this phenomenon is called "social proof" (as in the girl on your arm somehow "proves" that you're not some undesirable dork).

I know all of this sounds odd (and maybe a little dumb), but I've seen this shit actually work with my own eyes. Repeatedly.

Besides, when have you ever known females to be completely rational?

Spike

12-28-04, 12:14

or lack thereof:

"Their latest escapade concerns Viola Trevino, who discovered she could obtain a child support order against a man without the inconvenience of actually having a child. Steve Barreras was forced to pay $20,000 for a child that, it turns out, never existed. Barreras protested for years and produced documentation that no child could possibly exist, but he was ignored by New Mexico's Child Support Enforcement Division. 'The child support system in this state is horrible,' an Albuquerque woman tells a reporter. 'A woman can walk into their office with a birth certificate and a ‘sob’ story and the man on that birth certificate is hunted down and forced to pay child support.' Yet the agency – which ironically claims to be keeping an eye on other people's parental 'responsibilities' – claims they were not responsible for the shakedown of Barreras, because they were 'merely enforcing child support already ordered by a judge.' No automatic provision requires the return of the fraudulently ordered payments, so to recover his money Barreras must hire more attorneys and sue.

"Though officials try to dismiss such shenanigans as aberrations, they proceed logically from the child support system, which was created by lawyers and feminists not to provide for children but to plunder fathers and transfer their earnings to other grown-ups. In an increasingly typical decision, a Massachusetts Appeals Court ruled in November that a mother could collect full child support from two men for the same child."

See link for the rest of this story: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/baskerville6.html

Ngp477

12-28-04, 14:58

The point I was actually trying to make is that if you don't accept the ex's money and later the ex can't pay-up, the kid might be able to sue you for the money. Of course it all depends on the law in your jurisdiction.

Thanks for your clarification. However the point I was trying to correct, and that you do have wrong, is that THE KID WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SUE THE CUSTODIAL PARENT FOR THE MONEY. To have a cause of action in the courts, there must be a statutory basis, a contract or a tort, or a prior court order that established the right to support from the parent WITH custody. It would be an abuse of discretion for the court to order a parent with custody to pay the other parents child support. If this is the fiction or fear that you are trying to create and it is not consistent with law or equity.

Here's the only possible situations I could think of where a bizare result could occur:
1. Custodial parent denies visitation, thereafter Judge erases the other parents duty to support for that period of time. (this was the traditional way of thinking but no longer. the judges will simply give the other parent extra visitation to compensate for the lost contact)
2. The child is kidnapped by the custodial parent or someone else and the payor parent cannot pay (impossibility to perform) In this situation the judge might erase some of the unpaid support. However the payor child would have to go before the judge on his initiative to stop the child support from continuing and not "sleep on his rights" and wait and use it as a defense later.

But remember also that child support is a vested right of the child, and wrongful actions in denying visitation are not to be offset by also denying the child his or her support money. The two are no longer linked like in the past.

The wrongful actions of the payor parent would never be imputed to the custodial parent, so the custodial parent would be ordered to pay child support. If so it would be reversible error.

Who Cares #2

12-28-04, 20:19

...It would be an abuse of discretion for the court to order a parent with custody to pay the other parents child support. If this is the fiction or fear that you are trying to create and it is not consistent with law or equity.I'm sorry for confusing the issues. It just seemed to me that there are so many bizarre and unjust results out there that I just assumed this to be a theoretical possibility. Just a few years ago, I never would've believed it if someone told me that smokers could sue tobacco companies and win but those people are now billions of dollars richer...

I just read that Westley Snipes had an arrest warrant issued against him because some woman wanted a sample of DNA to prove that he was the father of her child but he had refused. This same mentally ill crack user had previously made false claims against half a dozen other celebrities in several other states. As that woman and Viola Trevino proved, you don't need a basis in reality to make the law work for you.

Rock Dog

12-29-04, 03:21

Spike,

Paying child support for a kid that doesn't even exist? Yet another sign that the end times are upon us.

It would have been worth a good laugh, except for the part where the poor SOB has to go to court AGAIN to get his money back.

It's hard to believe that a scam like this could actually work.

Rock

Spike

12-29-04, 22:00

I beg to differ...

The court doesn't HAVE to issue an order for Family Support Division to attach wages and/or sue. I was billed child support for THREE YEARS while enjoying full custody of my two daughters. The courts will look the other way rather than challenge FSD. It is a very tight knit group, and they all know each other. The mechanism works this way: 1. Ex wife goes on welfare. 2. FSD collects money for child support from father to reimburse county for welfare paid out. 3. Family Court covers for FSD because it means money in county coffers. By the way, this was CHILD SUPPORT, NOT alimony! Believe me, I know the difference.

I had my car registration renewal refused and actually had my drivers license suspended WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE (I found out when pulled over for a broken turn indicator; I missed a very important business meeting that probably cost me a couple thousand dollars. The cop damned near impounded my car!). FSD proceedures are very much like all of the (unconstitutional) property forfeiture laws now being enforced against suspected drug dealers (and mongers in some jurisdictions)... it is a system run amok with absolutly NO checks and balances.

You may be right about the court not ordering the custodial parent to pay child support, but... in my experience, the court can do whatever it wants to do. In California, the review/appeal process for a Family Court decision is almost impossible; higher courts as a rule don't like to get involved with the mess that is Family Law. The court didn't rule as such in my case; I had custody and there was no support issue, but FSD just went ahead IGNORED the court order giving me custody and continued to pursue child support for my dead-beat ex. The welfare department was paying her as if she had children living with her, and FSD, by damn, was going to have the county reimbursed! If you don't believe me, I can pm you with my attorney's name and phone number. All you'll have to do is pay his $275 hourly fee for the one hour minimum consultation.

By the way, I just finished reading your post. Are you a lawyer? If so, what jurisdiction? You are spreading some very inaccurate information. See my last post. Parents (almost always Fathers) are regularly screwed by FSD with the court's acquiescence or approval. I went to Famly Court once and waited for one of my many "hearings". I'm dressed up in my standard business attire, nice suit and tie. A scrungy looking bum type comes and sits next to me and starts talking about his case. I'm thinking "Shit, why do these losers always sit next to me?". He goes on and on about his new job, how he is finally making $10 per hour, the most he has ever made in his life(!). He tells me his wife left the county, he doesn't know where she is, and he hasn't seen his kids for two years. Now I'm starting to listen.

Before actually appearing in front of the judge, FSD attorneys "conference" with the "defendants" to try to stipulate for the purpose of saving the judges time (judges don't like to work very much). I was sitting there, so when the FSD guy came to talk to my new "friend", I heard the whole thing. The upshot was, my "friend" wasn't going to see his kids because there was no obligation to tell him where his ex was living. She was on welfare, and they were getting her checks to her, but they wouldn't tell the father where the kids were. Not their problem the FSD attorney explained. What FSD WAS worried about was the arrearage. It seems that my new "friend" owed (sit down now, and hold onto your hat) $55,000 in back support!!!!! This from a guy who was just now making $10 per hour!!!! When the victim said that it would take him 30 years to pay it all off, the smart-assed FSD attorney said: "Just consider it to be a house payment, but without the house". I damned near reached over and slapped that son-of-a-*****!! I was being dragged through the same pile of shit, but I at least had the money to pay the f*cking leaches.

Get real, N, your theory sounds good, but you ain't living in the real world, at least not in MY neighborhood!

Spike

12-29-04, 22:14

I do tend to get obsessive about this topic.

You wrote:

"1. Custodial parent denies visitation, thereafter Judge erases the other parents duty to support for that period of time. (this was the traditional way of thinking but no longer. the judges will simply give the other parent extra visitation to compensate for the lost contact)"

I could find a dozen cases, RIGHT NOW, in which arbitrary denial of visitation by the custodial parent DOES NOT REDUCE THE SUPPORT OBLIGATION. If you EVER go to court and explain that you aren't paying because you have been denied visitation, you will offered two choices: 1. PAY UP, or... 2. GO TO JAIL. No disrespect, and I don't want to start a flame war, but you are WAY off base. I KNOW what happens in California, and I have been in contact with a couple of Father's Rights groups who confirmed that this kind of thing DOES happen all across the country, ALL THE TIME.....

Don't count on logic or the law to save you from the child support scam. In my experience, NOBODY wields more power on the local level than a Family Court judge and their henchmen at Family Support Division.

Spike, out....

Dickhead

12-30-04, 07:43

A guy walks into a lawyer's office and says, "Can I ask you two questions for a thousand dollars?" The lawyer says, "Sure, what's your second question?"

Who Cares #2

12-30-04, 21:14

PsyberZombie and Smut Villian are absolutely correct. Wing women work much better than wing men. Women are much more apt to trust the opinion of another woman regarding a man than they would be to trust that man's male friend. Having a woman friend basically says to other woman that you've been vetted by another woman and been found to be somewhat worthy. It also conforms to the evolutionary psychology theories I touched upon earlier. Woman want a man who can be prolific. If you already have women with you, you're signaling to other women that you already have a good start in that area. Of course there are a lot of strategies to finding a good mate and to mating in general, so not all girls will respond to this. But any signals you can send to potential mates that you are a good catch will help you.

The only good thing about having a lot of girl friends is that they can be useful as wing women. While the girls I'm friends with are often as dorky as I am, they still get me more dates than I can by myself. In fact the only time I've gotten bump-n-grind dances, phone numbers and dates at clubs is when my girl friends bring in other girls to meet me. I suppose I should make more use of them since I've helped them out so often.

Spike, I'm going to defend Npaul a bit and say that he's right about there being no basis in law for a person to be forced to pay the other spouse's child support obligations. He said for a judge to order it would be an abuse of their power. But going with your experiences and what I've witnessed, judges and FSD abuse their discretion all the freaking time. It's just another reason to be careful.

Spike

01-02-05, 13:16

You are absolutely right. Thanks for helping me regain perspective. Npaul IS corrrect, and he is making a statement about the way things are (should be). I missed that point, sorry, by being so wrapped up in my own involvement with the pirates in question.

The FSD and Family Law Courts,and my experience with both of them, have been one of the few areas in my life where I felt totally and completely powerless. They are abusive and beyond any reason or comprehension. I guess I let my bitternes get the better of me.

Npaul, I apologize if my post was too harsh.

Happy New Year to all!!

Spike, out...

Rock Dog

01-03-05, 19:33

The wingwoman concept is an interesting one. It illustrates a profound difference between women and men in the way they think.

Think about it. Let's say you see a woman in the bar or at some social event. She's with a fairly good-looking guy, or even a couple of guys. Most of us would look, and think to ourselves "She's probably taken, ah well just keep looking".

Now, if we are to believe the wingwoman concept, women think a completely different way. The woman sees you with some good looking women and thinks "wow, that guy has those girls with him.... he must be interesting". I guess it makes sense if you think about it. I would have thought that they'd suspect you were some kind of player, but I guess that's not how the female mind works.

In fact, that might be a really good explanation why so many women DO fall for players all the time.

Rock

PsyberZombie

01-04-05, 12:19

Rock Dog notes =

Now, if we are to believe the wingwoman concept, women think a completely different way.

Of course women think completely differently than men do , R•D

You noted this your·self over the 'Morality of Prostitution' Board when you wrote that women are looking for 'value' in the men they have sex with ; whereas men just want to have their jollies with a hot young babe

Any·one with any inkling about Human Nature knows that women value Power and Wealth while men value Youth and Beauty

So when you see a beautiful young woman with another guy , you take it to mean that some other guy has already snapped her up

.... but when a woman sees YOU with another woman , that means you've already been 'vetted' for Power and Wealth ; and that you must have some even if it isn't apparent to the naked eye ; and that there·fore you are a better 'target' to zero in on than some poor schlub who's standing there with his buddies , none of whom seem to able to get a date

One other thing about this 'Wing Woman' Concept =

Once the ice is broken with a chick , it's up to you to now convince her that you're the Alpha Male she's been looking for

My brothers and I frequently 'dress down' and even though I own a tuxedo and even wear it on formal occasions , my usual 'uniform' consists of Hawaiian shirts or long sleeved tees ; Jeans or khaki shorts ; and sandals or boat shoes [ or boots in the snow ] . So I don't look wealthy or power·ful , but I *must* be , or I wouldn't have this gorgeous blond chick [ my sister] hanging around , now would I ??

It doesn't take more than a few minutes of conversation for a chick to figure out that in fact we all are doing pretty well ; and then her attention turns to my sister Fellatia = usually some comment like : " Doesn't your friend there mind you talking to me ?? "

My answer : " Who , Fellatia ?? She's not my friend ; she's my sister "

That always kicks my new companion in·to the next gear = she figures she better 'lock me in' before some·one else can

This Wing Woman Concept *really* works , Gentle·men , so I recommend you use it while you're still young enough to get away with it [ when you reach my age , the only ones it still works with are the Gold·Diggers , although they can be 'loads' of fun , too ]

Rubber Nursey

01-04-05, 13:25

Yes, I would be more likely to talk to a man who had women in his group - but it's nothing to do with power, money or trying to steal another chicks man. Noticing that he has girls in his group tells me, among other things, that:
a) He's probably not a sexist pig that only feels comfortable going out with 'the boys' and he obviously treats women well enough to have collected a few female mates,
b) He's probably not a pervert or sleaze, because other women feel safe around him, and
c) He's probably not violent and/or obnoxious when he gets drunk, again because other women feel safe around him.

And later on, if he asked me to leave the club with his group for a nightcap or whatever, I would be more likely to say yes if other women were going to be joining us.

I would say the 'Wing Woman' concept DOES work, for exactly the reason that Who Cares #2 gave in his recent post ...
"Women are much more apt to trust the opinion of another woman regarding a man than they would be to trust that man's male friend. Having a woman friend basically says to other woman that you've been vetted by another woman and been found to be somewhat worthy"
... although I would add SAFE to that, as well.

Rock Dog

01-04-05, 15:34

Thanks RN,

NOW that stupid wingwoman thing makes sense. I practically smacked myself in the forehead after reading your post. Once again, we see how valuable it is to have a female point of view expressed here.

I think the key concept is that being around other women makes you look good to other women. However, this doesn't work unless you quickly establish that you are still available (without looking too eager :D ).

Hmmmm, I guess I'm just a slow learner.

Rock

Rubber Nursey

01-04-05, 22:19

"I think the key concept is that being around other women makes you look good to other women".

Yep - I would agree with that. Another thing that came to mind after I posted last was the 'pack mentality' that often seems to occur among men, especially when alcohol is involved. When a group of men are out together on the hunt, filled with false bravado and egging each other on, they can appear quite intimidating to their female 'target'. When their group includes women, men tend to be a little better behaved - I guess because they know they will suffer the wrath of their female friends if they're disrespectful to another woman!

As for establishing that you're still available, I don't think that's a hard task. Most women can tell from a mile away whether or not the girl you're with is your girlfriend. It can be a little difficult with REALLY close friends, where there's a high level of comfort and/or intimacy between you, but as a general rule I think women are pretty darn good at reading body language and determining whether the girl by your side is a threat or an ally. Just make sure you don't go out with a girl who has a crush on you or that you have a romantic history with - she's likely to come off as jealous and protective and make it clear to every woman in the room that you're off-limits.

Sporadic

01-06-05, 18:33

Come now, RN, would you not apply the same attributes to a pack of women on a girl´s night out? Certainly no suitor could get within touching distance without meeting the approval of at least the majority of the sisterhood.

I agree that any unescorted ladies are generally seen as fair game by men on the prowl, but for sheer scale of bravado, you ladies have it all over the men. Ever seen or heard about "hen nights" and male strippers?

Uptight, repressed women acting like randy 18 year olds.

Sounds like fun! ;)

Cheers,

Sporadic

Rubber Nursey

01-07-05, 01:33

Women can be shocking when they get together - especially when male strippers are involved! I think we're all a little better behaved when we're in a mixed group. Too much oestrogen in one place can be just as dangerous as too much testosterone!

Belgrath

01-07-05, 05:03

Was listening in to a radio show based in San Diego and this woman was ragging about how her boyfriend gave her inexpensive jewelry as one of her main Christmas gifts and when she took it to her jeweler to get it appraised it wasnt worth as much as she thought and was outraged. Not because he boyfriend lied, but because she didnt score the bling bling! The female co host was totally saying crap about the guy too because she also believed that love = spending tons of money on her. Dang just put on sign saying 'Will put out for gems." and stand on the corner of the red light district. The guy callers and guy cohost said maybe the guy was down on his luck or thought it still looked pretty but wanted to do something for her but the women just talked about 'deserving high class gifts' and so forth. The 'no money-no honey', attitudes of so many american women is so irritating to me when they dont realize that they are just being escort service girls and not 'classy' or 'discriminating'. At least with a bargirl I know she'll stop being sweet when I stop buying her drinks and stuff but I dont want to ever think the girl that says she loves me forever no matter what would cut me off because maybe money got tight and I had to get something pretty from the local mall for once instead of Gucci or Cartier's.

Sinanju Master

01-07-05, 23:25

Belgrath, that is SO true! Wedding vows don't mean JACK SHIT to American Women. For Better or Worse? Get real! She's out searching for another dick supply the minute things get bumpy instead of pitching in and attempting to work things out as a team. For Richer or Poorer? PLEASE! I'm supposed to shell out FUCKING JEWELRY and other pricey trinkets JUST to stay on her good side and occasionally get laid IF she feels like it? I swear it's like what Montel William's brother said once about (American) women: their listening skills are like a sale; they hear what they want to hear (50%) and the other stuff (what they don't find palatable) is HALF OFF.

That poor schmoe is gonna end up paying (literally and figuratively) for sex that will eventually have all the fun of a necrophiliac experience and SHE will think that she's giving him the best sex since Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden!

P4P is the Great Humbler, 'cos it gives a woman perspective that her shit AIN'T all that!

CBGBConnisur

01-08-05, 16:35

Marriage is a total waste of time, money, and sanity in the 21st century, prostitutes and part time girlfriends are the new reality, at least in the USA.

Rock Dog

01-08-05, 18:24

Belgrath,

If that woman tried that kind of crap on ME, I'd do what any guy still in possession of both his balls would do. I'd tell her what an ungrateful kunt she is and then I'd tell her to go fuck herself (after I took the gift back).

There's way too many women out there with this kind of problem attitude. What causes it? I don't think anybody knows for sure, but I suspect that jealousy plays a big part. The average american female usually has an overly high sense of her self-image. This is especially true if she's even a little bit good looking. Then they look to see what other women are getting and that's where the trouble starts. "Hmmmm, I'm better looking than her, and her boyfriend got her a $2,000 item of whatever." Now they think that they should get something of at least equal value.

Not all women are like this. But, like I said once before, these are the ones we keep running into because these are the ones that are usually available.

Maybe we should borrow a page from the womens' operating manual. Don't just check her out, but take a good look at her friends as well. How do they all act? What do they talk about? If they seem materialistic and have that sky-high sense of entitlement, we might be doing ourselves a big favor if we just keep on looking.

Rock

Rock

Rock Dog

01-08-05, 18:44

Greetings everyone,

First off, this is going to be just a little bit off topic, but it kind of relates to this forum so here goes.

I've been watching all the news coverage about the tsunami for the last 2 weeks. Quite a few times they have shown people who are trying to help as well as people who are looking for lost or missing relatives. There's been people from North America and Europe too.

What I noticed was that most of the guys from the States were there with their wives. I never saw one single one of these women that were good looking. Without exception, they were loud and ho-hum looking with fat, out-of-shape bodies. The guys were no hell either, but still.

The european guys seem to be a different story. Lots of the swedish guys have swedish wives and I was a little surprised to see that they still look pretty good even after being married and having kids. Also, the euro guys seemed a lot more likely to go off and marry asian, african and latina women as there were quite a few interracial couples.

Hmmmm, maybe it's a trend. We've got foreign competition for jobs. Why not give women some foreign competition for men. I'd love to do a questionnaire type of survey and see what women think about THAT.

Rock

PsyberZombie

01-09-05, 15:18

Marriage is a total waste of time, money, and sanity in the 21st century, prostitutes and part time girlfriends are the new reality, at least in the USA.

It really gravels me [ and it takes a LOT for me to use 'gravel' as a verb ] when people say that Hookers "sell their bodies"

Hookers only Rent their bodies ; it's the Wives who've 'sold' them....

Sinanju Master

01-09-05, 16:13

Hookers divulge UP FRONT the bill of goods they will sell you; Wives include a lot of FINE PRINT that is NOT divulged and will take advantage of the sucker who fails to read it.

PsyberZombie

01-11-05, 12:45

... not to mention that Wives sell their bodies the way those pushy sales·people
sell Time Shares =

You can only use it once a year ; but most wives don't even offer a 'Roll Over' Option , if you get my drift

Smut Villain

02-26-05, 01:14

Hey guys, Jackson's worked most of the bugs out of the system caused by the DOS attacks, but nobody's posting! I know we didn't run out of things to say, did we?

Server's back up, and it's safe to come out and play again ;)

Rock Dog

02-26-05, 02:06

Yay Hooray!

I noticed the exact same thing as Smut V. Maybe everyone is waiting for someone else to make the first post. So here goes.

Does anyone ever watch Maury Povich? I've noticed that a lot of the time a woman will have a paternity test done to prove to her boyfriend/husband that the kid is really his. What's interesting is that, every now and then, it turns out he isn't the dad.

Then the girl usualy gets a shocked look on her face before she runs to the backstage in tears. Seems like quite a few women are out there screwing around. I'm wondering if there's any good surveys out there that give some idea of how often this goes on.

Rock

Sinanju Master

02-26-05, 03:21

Hey, Smut!

I was gonna make a comment on something I saw on Oprah a little over a month ago (or was it longer than that?). It involved something that occurred on 'Sex in the City", which, by the way, I have NEVER seen a full episode EVER. Anyhoo, on Oprah, the subject was when a woman falls for a guy but he gives her a "polite" brushoff. The phenomenon is called: "He's Just Not Into You". She goes onto interview this guy who readily gives millions of women the so-called signs of when a guy brushes off a woman and I immediately thought to myself: "Where is the fucking show that tells GUYS about the MYRIAD bullshit excuses and mindgames that WOMEN toss at men SOMETIMES for FUN"? I know I was talking to myself at the moment, but I was frustrated at the one-sided issue.

Long Stroker

02-26-05, 08:40

Sinanju Master,

That guy on Oprah was pushing his book.

This is from a description on Amazon.com:

"He's Just Not That Into You --based on a popular episode of Sex and the City -- educates otherwise smart women on how to tell when a guy just doesn't like them enough, so they can stop wasting time making excuses for a dead-end relationship. He's Just Not That Into You is provocative, hilarious, and, above all, intoxicatingly liberating. It deserves a place on every woman's night table. It knows you're a beautiful, smart, funny woman who deserves better. The next time you feel the need to start "figuring him out," consider the glorious thought that maybe He's just not that into you. And then set yourself loose to go find the one who is."

I read most of the synopsis and a few reviews. Basically, the book is saying to the female, "Look, if he doesn't call you, doesn't email you, doesn't ask you out on a date, well, maybe he just doesn't want anything to do with you."

And that's the hilarious part! Apparently, even women themselves understand that there is a tremendous need for a book that helps them THINK LOGICALLY when it comes to relationships. (not that there's any hope for that ever happening)

P.S. I have watched Sex in the City on a few occasions (never by choice) and have found that it can at times offer truly incredible insight into the fucked-up female mind. Kind of like watching a car accident........

Sinanju Master

02-26-05, 22:37

LS,

I remember watching a few minutes of it once, and from what I was able to piece together, the broad Samantha had just lured an old flame into bed (it was morning and they had just finished doing the deed god knows how many times) with the intention of dumping him because (get THIS) he dumped HER sometime ago! ANYWAY, they get to talking and experiencing the afterglow and although he was oblivious to her plot, he dumps her AGAIN!! She then freaks out, throws a tantrum and says OUTRIGHT (I don't think this is VERBATIM, but it's very very CLOSE): "That's not supposed to happen! YOU'RE supposed to get dumped by ME"! I was laffing my ASS OFF!

Crypton

02-27-05, 03:24

Rock Dog,

"Seems like quite a few women are out there screwing around. I'm wondering if there's any good surveys out there that give some idea of how often this goes on."

This is interesting. After DNA paternity tests became common, biologists started using them on various animals. For many years, people thought some species of birds bonded with a single male for the whole season (and in fewer cases, for life). Anyway, it turned out that about 20-25% (on average) of nestlings in such species were fathered by a different male! Of course, to do these kinds of tests in humans would be unethical. But estimates are about 5-10% of the babies in the US are not fathered by the male that is supposed to have. Of course, both men and women are screwing around; and studies in other animals show that females screw around lot more than people previously suspected (but probably less than men).

Crypton

Jaswells

02-27-05, 04:11

Programmes like sex in the city have an awful lot to answer for! Women in the west see it and suddenly believe it is ok to apply aggression to the jealous/revenge streak in them. This results in unnattractive witches such as that Samantha character. Personally cant watch the programme for more than 5 mins without filling with rage. Hopefully such shit will never be essential viewing for girls elsewhere in the world.

On the topic of infidelity, I read from a reputable source a year or so ago that approx 1 in 20 men in the US and UK were family men and fathers to kids that were not their own and completely unaware of the fact. This figure was derived from a relatively large random survey of couples. I still find this figure hard to believe, but made me think, and i guess yeh, i can see why a woman would do anything to keep a guy supporting her child even if she doubts the true paternity.

Means theres alot of poor dumb guys out there living a lie.

Smut Villain

02-27-05, 11:39

This TV program makes me wonder:

(1) How can women be so damned illogical but such perfect scheme artists at the same time (actually I think the 2nd part of that question is because we men fall for their schemes almost every time).

(2) Ever notice that this show was based on American women? Why not Asians or Latinas, or some other culture? Gives you something to think about, doesn't it?

Oh well, why should it matter; as soon as my financial situation is straightened out I plan to become an expatriate anyway.

P.S. Welcome back Sinanju Master, et al. Nice to hear from everyone again!

PsyberZombie

02-27-05, 14:21

Since Infidelity seems to be the Topic du Jour , here's a link to an Article on the Subject =

http://*******.com/5uf9r

Not that I totally agree with it ; fer ex , a psychologist is quoted as saying =

" There are some cases when someone is just having sex with different people out of a need for variety, but most people really think before they go off in that direction. If you have a good relationship, you're less likely to jeopardize it "

"SOME Cases" ??

I would guess that for the over·whelming majority of my fellow Mongers , the desire for a little Variety is the Primary Motive for why they're in the Hobby

Mike12

02-28-05, 07:42

Seen this movie "Hitch" last week. Funny flick. Alot of interesting things going on in the movie. First off it pisses me off because it kind of gives away some of the methods and tricks to get a womans attention. With that being said we need all the help we can get. In America anyway. anyways, Hitch is a date doctor who helps men get with chicks through various means. The guys contrive the meeting and do what they do, cause otherwise they dont have a chance. The womans ideal encounter is spontaneous and makes them feel special. We all know for normal guys this don't happen often. Unless you got money or are famous this don't apply. Thats another topic though. One good part is when eva mendes accuses will smith of " tricking, lying, and deceiving woman into getting, getting,"....and will smith says "getting out of their own Goddamn way". Now that there should be an eye opener for woman. Hopefully.

CBGBConnisur

02-28-05, 15:14

I am starting to realize, just about wherever you go in the world, you are bound to meet some crappy women. In many parts of the world, globalization has a lot to do with this pattern. I have seen a lot of lazy fat stupid women who watch TV all day in Europe and in Australia. In the past, things were different. Still compared to the States, beautiful women in both places are more approachable for the average male. I think it has to do with economics, there aren't a lot of guys with money in these places, so an average guy has a chance of picking someone up through his own charm and appeal rather than playing the meal ticket. Regardless, women around the world look at a man as meal ticket. Its just that some have lower expectations and some have higher expectations. I think in some parts of the world, if a guy has a job and a haircut, that is good enough for most women. However, in America, women have some ridiculous expectations. Those women that come from foreign countries to America can turn out to be the worst American females, greedy and expecting everything from their prospective mate.

Long Stroker

03-03-05, 05:12

mike12,

when i saw the trailer for hitch, i also became a little concerned that will smith might be giving away too much information. as you may be aware, some of that shit actually works! i mean really amazing jedi-mind-trick type shit.

perhaps the most extreme (and thus potentianly untenable) version of this type of thinking is ross jefferies speed seduction program. i'm not promoting it, hell i never even bought it. too bad for ross, much of this info is available for free on the internet.

basically what it comes down to is getting totally inside her mind, finding out her likes and dislikes, and artificially creating that reality for her without her having any idea what you are up too. in effect, you are programming her to like you and want to fuck you. sub-themes also involve ignoring her from time to time, just to remind her she's only a ho to you (recommended by 50 cent in one of his new songs, incidentally) and learning how to be that jerk all girls love so much.

it can be tricky to get the hang of, and certainly doesn't always work. but if you can find a simple-minded enough chick, the odds can be good. i've had some amazing results with chicks i thought were out of my league.

unfortunatly, as you may suspect, this type of technique is only sustainable over the short-term. in other words, obviously, the basis for the whole relationship is a lie (i.e. the fabricated world that you have created for her) and will last only as long as you choose to carry the facade.

also, it gets tiring being an asshole all the time. (at least it does for me.) i happen to love women. they are nature's most perfect creation in my eyes - physically, at least, mentally is another story. inevitably, you reach the point in the relationship where you want to reveal your true feelings for the girl, but this you can never do. for to admit this is to admit defeat and to hand her the victory. from this point, only two outcomes can occur: either she'll want to get married or she'll dump you. considering that neither one of those is a desired outcome, there exists no reason for continuing past a short-term relationship.

therefore, in these situations, its still 3f baby, all the way.

and the sad thing is, they'll love you all the more for it.

Freeler

03-03-05, 09:04

Guys,

If this trailer cums anywhere near the way American guys act around women, we really need an 'American Men' section...:D

http://www.apple.com/trailers/sony_pictures/hitch/high.html

Joe Zop

03-03-05, 15:59

Well, you know, Long Stroker, there's always the other side of the coin that doesn't involve living a lie -- such as actually caring about her likes and dislikes and trying to genuinely bring them into the equation as opposed to creating a fake world.

But you're right -- that could mean really getting emotionally involved and possibly into a sustainable relationship, which would be "defeat."

Rubber Nursey

03-04-05, 03:34

"But you're right -- that could mean really getting emotionally involved and possibly into a sustainable relationship, which would be defeat."

Ain't that the truth - speaking as a woman who recently got dumped because she was (apparently) everything this guy ever wanted, which scared the hell outta him and made him run for the hills.

My now ex-boyfriend spent most of our last official day of coupledom talking about marriage and babies and how I was so different to any other woman he'd met and how much he adored me, blah, blah, blah. Two days later, he emailed me (yes...email, not phone) to say that he was scared by the intensity of what he was feeling and that maybe we should just cool it for a while. Two days after that, I was offically dumped (on the phone) and he started shagging a girl practically half my age. When I asked him what she had that I didn't have, he said it wasn't like that at all - being with her was just "easier". Easier than what? "Easier than being in love" he says.

Two weeks later and he's already dumped his little diversion. We still talk pretty often and he's made it quite clear he doesn't want to get back together. Even so, he gets nervous and tongue-tied every time he sees me and prefers to contact me via email because apparently "hearing your voice makes it harder". He said he would offer me a place to stay when I'm in town, but he "doesn't trust himself". He caught me in flagrante delicto with a 25 year old Justin Timberlake lookalike 'diversion' of my own last Saturday night and almost cried before storming out of the club - but noooo...he doesn't give a shit about me at all.

Do I love him more for treating me like dirt? HELL NO! I loved him (still do...very much) because he treated me with respect and we laughed and we had so much in common and he was the kind of BEST FRIEND I could picture having by my side for the rest of my days. I HATE players. I HATE not knowing where I stand with a man. I HATE being treated like a princess one minute and a wh*re the next. DON'T DO IT, GUYS!!!

Honesty is what most women want. And respect. And security. No, not financial security...EMOTIONAL security. We want to know how you REALLY feel about us, not sit at home by the phone wondering whether you're thinking about us or whether you're out doing a 20 year old barmaid. If you're picturing marrying us and having babies - tell us. If you're just attracted to us and wanna have drunken monkey sex here and there without commitment - tell us THAT! But for God's sake...just tell the TRUTH!

As for me, I'm going back to being the feminazi 'all men are bastards' man-hater that I was a few months ago. Hopefully, one day I'll find a guy who can prove me wrong.

Rubber Nursey

03-04-05, 05:21

Just so you know that the truth really CAN work (no matter how politically incorrect that truth may be!) here's how I ended up going at it like a teenager in the corner of the club with a cute stranger on Saturday night.

To cut a long story short, I was depressed as hell being in the same club as my ex and not being able to go near him, I met a fabulous chick who forced me out onto the dance floor, bitched with me about how much men suck (we don't actually believe all that stuff, but it always makes us feel better - call it a female bonding ritual ;) ) and introduced me to her Justin Timberlake lookalike friend. After an hour or so of me subconsciously looking over at my ex every three seconds, 'Justin' put his fingers into the belt loops of my jeans and pulled me towards him until my pelvis was against his, looked me straight in the eye and said "I could give you something to take your mind off him..." I laughed and told him that it wouldn't be very fair to use him as a diversion. He just put his arms around me and said with a grin "I'm a guy...I don't care WHY you're doing it, so long as you're doing it with me". Add a couple of cheesy "The man is a fool - you're the hottest woman in the room" type comments and how could I not take him back to my hotel room? :)

Thing is, he told me exactly what he wanted - no bullshit and no false promises. I like knowing where I stand. Don't tell a girl you want something that you don't, or make it out that you're something that you're not. If you think she's a hottie and you just wanna take her home for the night and bang her senseless, then tell her. You never know - that might be exactly what she's looking for!

Rock Dog

03-04-05, 06:16

The fact that many guys feel they have to use all kinds of tactics and strategies just goes to show how bad things really are.

Honesty? Just be yourself? Let her know how much you really want her? Naively, one would expect that openness and honestly would be the best way to go. Sadly, it isn't...... not where our women are concerned.

They really do seem to be more attracted to a guy who is interesting, but not interested.

Strange.

Rock

Long Stroker

03-04-05, 10:07

Exactly right, Rock Dog. "Just be yourself" is for SUCKERS. You MUST run game if you want to get anywhere with chicks in America these days. I know because I used to be the nice guy.......who always finished last when it came to women. Not anymore, baby. It's funny, acting like a jerk reduces the need to jerk-off! (I just came up with that.)

Rock, you nailed it too when you said: "They really do seem to be more attracted to a guy who is interesting, but not interested."

"Interesting", because you have to create that sense of adventure, that devil-may-care, "who knows what could happen next?" type attitude which sets their little hearts all atwitter and......

not "Interested", because the second they get the sense that you are too much into them, they'll drop you like last month's Cosmo magazine.

RN: I forgot that there are female regulars that post here or perhaps I would not have been so brusque with my earlier comments. I didn't mean ALL women are like this. I am primarily referring to 20-30 year old range American women. (My target audience.) In my experience, all they seem to want is fun, fun, fun.

P.S. Truly sorry to hear about your breakup RN. It certainly does sound like the guy was scared of commitment.

To paraphrase Dave Barry: "One of the married guy's biggest fears, constantly gnawing at the corners of his mind, is that at any given moment in time, some single guy, somewhere in the world is having more fun than he is right now." This constant distress is more than some can bear.

PsyberZombie

03-04-05, 12:33

.... for RN =

http://*******.com/6rqox

... for the guys =

http://*******.com/66k4f

Sinanju Master

03-04-05, 22:49

Long Stroker, you read my mind to the "T"! Be yourself? Get REAL! American Women are like moths. DRAWN to the bad-boy fire. They know instinctively it's bad for them, but they STILL flock to it. When I was nice, I was stupid, and I'll agree on that with ANYONE who says so. A few years ago, I fell for a former coworker. Her bf had just left town and dumped her and left her in financial dire straits. Dumbass fool that I was, I moved in to fill the vacuum, offered her my shoulder to cry on and my ear to bend and I made her aware of my feelings for her. As RN would have advised, I was up front, so there was no ambiguity. I instinctively felt that she was eventually moving away from me. Because I was doing what women said I should do, I was crushed when I eventually learned that she found someone else. I vowed then from that moment forward NEVER to be fool enough to lower my shields, and I also tossed the heart out the window, because it would get in the way.

I'm not bashing RN, but women, in their need to feel politically correct, will put forth the appearance that they are fair in their dealings with men and that they will give any suitor "a chance". Anyway, I then began reading the material of Doc Love and the stuff he says makes so much sense. In a nutshell, you have to keep the woman off-balance by NOT being predicatble (translation: doing what 999 other guys do to try to win her over) and being a Challenge. I haven't seen HITCH yet, but I think I have the idea: "If you gotta fake the funk to make a slam dunk" by all means DO SO. I'm not advocating falsifying the very essence of who you are, but add "LIFE" and mystery to your public persona, and a chick will have to work to solve the puzzle. After all, don't we all feel better after we've EARNED something instead of having it given to us?

RN, I await your hatchet....

Sinanju Master

03-05-05, 04:22

the kick in the gut (the most tangible beginning of the end) came when I told her of my feelings for her and she uttered the death sentence: "I'll ALWAYS be your friend".

Joe Zop

03-05-05, 05:37

With all due respect, Sinanju Master, it sounds as though the real mistake you made was being the rebound guy. I don't disagree in the least that tons of women have a bad boy thing (perhaps in the same way than many men have a sl*t thing that disappears when the start thinking about the Madonna who's chosen to pop out their babies, when it's suddenly time for the pure and virginal) but being the one who picks someone up off the floor after they've been put there does indeed very often set you up for gratitude and friendship but not more.

Rock Dog

03-05-05, 06:38

JZ and SM,

Rebound guy = Emotional tampon

To be used in pretty much the same way. You're there to absorb their crap and then, when no longer needed, get tossed without any second thoughts.

Possible countermeasures = a 5 minute time limit on listening to any pissing, moaning or whining. When the time is up, just tell her things will get better, the right guy is out there etc. and then tell her you've got to go because you have "things to do".

Rock

Long Stroker

03-05-05, 08:00

Joe Zop: To clarify, I wasn't meaning to equate a sustainable relationship with defeat. What I mean was that once you've confessed your true feelings to a woman, there are only two possible outcomes: Marriage or getting dumped by the girl. Either of these outcomes I would view as defeat. On the contrary, a sustainable relationship built on truthfulness from both parties would be my ideal, but I don't see how that is possible, given the way the economic and social system is currently set up in the US.

"Actually caring about her likes and dislikes" is okay if done superficially, but it's been my experience that once they get the idea that you're really into them, they're gone.

Sinanju Master: I see that you have experienced first-hand the hopelessness and despair of falling into the trap of the "Friend Zone." Haven't we all? This is one of the worst positions a man can find himself in. Being close enough to touch and smell the object of his desire, and yet powerless to consumate that desire. The literature suggests a way of dealing with this dilemma (which has its own acronym, by the way - LJBF - which stands for "let's just be friends.") I don't know if Doc Love has covered it, but it goes something like this:

At the very beginning, when setting up the first date (even though you never call them dates, you call them get-togethers, but that's a whole 'nother topic) on the phone you say something to the effect of:

"Let's get together for some coffee, get to know each other, if nothing else, I'm sure you'll make a great FRIEND."

This fucks with their little minds like you wouldn't believe. It plays to their insecurities, their fears, and even their self-esteem. Ironically these are all emotions they would hold YOU hostage with if you allowed them to.

Let her think that you will be evaluating her to determine if she is worthy of your friendship. Your reward will be clearly visible in the thought bubbles that form above her head:

"Who does this guy think he is, judging the value of me? What makes him so special? Hmmm, maybe I had better find out just what it is that makes him special, before some other girl beats me to it."

and

"I can't believe this guy just wants to be friends! Why doesn't he want to fuck me, like all the other guys I date? Am I not attractive to him? What's wrong with me?"

Logic would dicktate that if 99 guys wanted to fuck you and 1 guy didn't, that the problem must lie with that 1 guy. Statistically speaking, that 1 guy is an anomaly. But not to the female mind! That 1 guy is a riddle wrapped in an enigma. She will ignore the 99 other guys until she can "figure out" this one guy. And if he can get in her pants before she gets to the last chapter, he's golden!

(Which, upon review, pretty much echoes most of what you said in your post, SM. I didn't realize that I was making a similar point until I went back and re-read your comments. So I guess we're in agreement!)

PsyberZombie: That Pearls Before Swine cartoon was great. Lord knows I've been there before.

Sinanju Master

03-05-05, 12:13

'Emotional Tampon"... A-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I LOVE that one! That's gonna have me chuckling at inappropriate moments for a WEEK! Hehehehe

Sinanju Master

03-05-05, 12:22

JZ, you're correct. I made the MISTAKE of being the rebound guy. For that, I needed to be temporarily branded. Instead of an "A" across my chest that adulterers would receive in the early days of this country, I should have worn an "L" across my forehead for LOSER. Rock Dog's countermeasures seem great. Too bad I didn't use such logic when things transpired at the time, but when you're too close to the situation, perspective is an alien concept.

Rubber Nursey

03-05-05, 19:48

Sinanju -- "I'm not bashing RN, but women, in their need to feel politically correct, will put forth the appearance that they are fair in their dealings with men and that they will give any suitor a chance."

I never said I was 'fair' when dealing with men. When it comes to attraction, there's just no room for political correctness. I'm NOT gonna have sex and/or start a relationship with you if I think you're too fat, thin, smart, stupid, old, young, driven, lazy, etc for what I'm looking for at that particular moment in my life. You either turn me on, or you don't. You're either the man of my dreams, or one of my mates. There's either chemistry, or there's not. I'm not going to apologise for that. I'm hardly gonna bump uglies with a man I'm not attracted to, just so I don't hurt his feelings.

But as for giving any suitor a chance - if you mean do I go into things with an open mind and without prejudice, then yes. I do. I don't have a 'type' of man that I go for, as such. There ARE certain characteristics that I generally find attractive, but I never go specifically looking for those things. I rely VERY heavily on chemistry and instinct. If I'm not turned on (or at the very least, intrigued) within the first few minutes, its not gonna happen. But I'll give ANY man those first few minutes to at least have a go.

Rubber Nursey

03-05-05, 20:14

Rock -- "To be used in pretty much the same way. You're there to absorb their crap and then, when no longer needed, get tossed without any second thoughts".

Don't try and tell me that men don't do that as well. And often they are much more callous about it! Look at the poor girl that my ex used to help get ME out of his head. Here she is thinking he's got rid of me to be with her ("I must be pretty special for him to dump his girlfriend for me") and then he just gives her the flick when he realises it's not working. I actually feel sorry for her.

PS. Congrats on your senior status!

Long Stroker -- "RN: I forgot that there are female regulars that post here or perhaps I would not have been so brusque with my earlier comments"

Don't hold back on my account. I wouldn't have stayed with this board for all these years if I was THAT easily offended! And thanks for the kind words. :)

To all of you -- You're all sick to death of women scheming and conniving and playing with your heads, so your answer is...what...scheming and conniving and playing with THEIR heads??? Got news for you boys - the more YOU do it, the more THEY are gonna feel they have to do it. And the more THEY do it, the more YOU are gonna have to do it to keep up.

Here's my theory - if the woman is a lying, scheming b*tch, why would you want her? Just walk away, for goodness sake. She's not worth it. And if the woman is a genuine, honest person, then she deserves the same honesty in return. Don't play with her head. It's not fair. There's no excuse for game-playing from EITHER sex. Period.

Sinanju Master

03-05-05, 23:22

RN, I don't ever remember begrudging a woman having the requirement of chemistry. It's that a lot of them say that they would give ANY suitor a "chance". They never state the requirements you did, which is why I hold their feet to the fire. That omission makes them appear blameless from the beginning, but when things turn bad, THEN they add the caveat. Even in our private conversations I don't remember EVER chiding you for turning up your nose at someone who didn't physically attract you or didn't stir your chemistry. If I ever DID, please produce the evidence. If a woman said UP FRONT the things you did about her requirements, that'd be cool and I would have no reason to chide her. HOWEVER, American women have mastered omission in order to manufacture the situation to make them come out smelling like a rose. As for men adopting underhanded techniques to make it with women, in early life, WOMEN BEGIN with a headstart on men in the arena of relationships and therefore develop more techniques of "guile". We are (admittedly) less developed as a whole in the arena of relationships than women and women KNOW THAT. The result is that they will take advantage of that fact and not feel ANY guilt about it WHATSOEVER. When a man engages in such underhanded behavior, it is no less abhorrent, BUT it is a lesser skilled participant playing catch-up to his more skilled opponent. I applaud any victory a man achieves in that fashion. It's wrong to feel that way, and if you truly want to bury the hatchet in my head, feel free to do so.

You seem like a cool chick who would be a great find, but I truly wonder if a man came at you with all the intangible requirements you described would last very long since you would have him all figured out in no time flat. You would be bored very quickly and looking for the guy who could keep you metaphorically (read: NOT NEGATIVELY) off-balance.

Accept my sharpening stone if you feel offended...

Rock Dog

03-06-05, 01:10

RN,

You're right of course. Lot's of guys will go after whatever girl is available just to get over their last flame. Use 'em then dump 'em once one's self esteem has been rebuilt.

We do it to women and the women do it to us.... each in our own particular way. Neither is admirable, but that's the way things are. I just happen to feel a bit more sorry for the guy who hangs in there, desperately hoping that the woman will give him a break.

Kind of like Charlie Brown hoping that Lucy won't pull back the football so that he can finally kick it instead of missing and landing on his ass every time.

Rock

Rubber Nursey

03-06-05, 05:23

Sinanju -- "I applaud any victory a man achieves in that fashion".

That is what disturbs me most about the conversations being held in this section. Call me old fashioned, but isn't love supposed to be a win-win situation? There shouldn't be a winner and a loser. If there is, then it seems one of you probably doesn't give a shit about the other - in which case, why the hell would you even be trying? Spite? Malice? To have another conquest to write about in your black book? Since when did love and attraction become a competition???

"You would be bored very quickly and looking for the guy who could keep you metaphorically (read: NOT NEGATIVELY) off-balance".

I don't like feeling 'off-balance'. I HATE feeling off-balance. I like to know exactly where I stand at all times. Fact is, I'm a very cynical, very jealous woman, with an overactive imagination. If my man takes that bit too long to return my calls, or acts cagey or does anything else that is too dramatically different to how he normally behaves for no obvious reason, I will start to worry. The more he puts me 'off-balance', the more I worry about his motives. Before long, I will have him written off in my head as a lying, cheating womaniser and I will be off looking for a young cutie to take my mind off him. Yes, I know that's not very grown-up behaviour - but neither is someone who apparently loves me 'treating me mean to keep me keen', as they say. There's a difference between keeping her interested and keeping her wondering. Nobody in a HEALTHY relationship should have to constantly wonder whether or not his/her partner gives a damn.

I think you're giving women way too much credit. We are already VERY insecure individuals. It doesn't take much to tip us over the edge.

PsyberZombie

03-06-05, 12:05

To : RN

While we all surely appreciate a woman's point of view here , there's one Basic Issue that's hard to over·look when we read your posts , RN =

This Board is about American Women ; and YOU are not American

Even though I'm not the most widely travelled guy here , I have been to many different countries and have three pass·ports full of stamps to prove it and one thing I've learned is that American Women are Unique in their out·look and attitudes towards life

Allow me , if you will , to re·post this Article on Thai Women and why American guys fall so hard for them [ "Farang" is Thai for "foreigner" ] =

" Farang men often fall madly in love with the first Thai girl they meet – even if she’s a rough street prostitute who doesn’t speak English. Love-sick farang men are queuing up at the altar to tie the knot with their dubious Thai mail-order brides but why don’t farang girls stir their passions in the same way?

Thai girls and farang girls could hardly be more different. Put simply, Thai girls are family-orientated and farang girls are increasingly career-orientated. In America, 44% of women aged 15 to 44 have chosen to remain childless and the trend is gathering pace. It’s easy to understand their point of view because, as men, we’ve always pursued our ambitions.

Farang girls enjoy opportunities that their Thai sisters can only dream about. In many ways, life in the West has never been better but it doesn’t seem to have translated into greater human happiness. We are witnessing an epidemic of relationship breakdown. Western men and women seem increasingly ill-matched and unhappy. Statistics reveal that dissatisfied western wives are divorcing their husbands in ever-increasing numbers and they can’t seem to find suitable replacements either. Does this mean that we farang fellas are all useless?

No, of course it doesn’t and I’m going to explain why. Despite the far-reaching changes in western society, the underlying attitudes of men and women remain broadly the same. Men still have a provider mentality and women still have an entitlement mentality. Men have always been attracted by youth and beauty and women have always been attracted by wealth and status. Inevitably, the mismatch between our utopian aspirations and the situation on the ground has created problems.

For the sake of his self-esteem, a man needs to be the breadwinner. Taking on the domestic role makes him feel like a failure. Women, on the other hand, feel uncomfortable in the role of provider. A woman would quickly lose respect for any man who appeared to be living off her. Women still feel entitled to a partner more successful than themselves. Consequently, the more successful a woman becomes, the harder it is to find someone suitable.

On the face of it, men are more easily satisfied. All a man needs is a girl who is cute and kind-hearted. Career status is unimportant – it’s her personal qualities that count. He needs to be her protector and hero. A brash career-orientated woman will never excite a man’s passion. If she’s pretty, he might humour her for long enough to get into her pants but a long-term relationship is unlikely to succeed.

Women who don’t touch a guy’s heart but who have soaring expectations are never going to find husbands. Men seeking unconditional love and respect from aggressive ladettes are never going to find wives. As a result, more people than ever are living lonely single lives between brief affairs. Throughout the western world, we are seeing explosive growth in the number of single person households. In the UK, for example, census data reveals that the number of single person households grew by 14% between 1991 and 2001. An unhappy world of selfish people living alone is now becoming reality.

Returning to the original question, I think that many farang men fall madly in love with a random Thai bar girl because they’ve never met a truly feminine woman before. Men feel a deep need to care for these needy fallen angels and to receive affection in return. Even when the affection is insincere, the compulsion is so great that few farang guys can resist. Thai girls play the role perfectly (See In praise of Thai girlfriends). They wield a power over men that their farang sisters have forgotten how to use. "

Long Stroker

03-06-05, 17:40

While at the gym yesterday, I was doing some cardio on one of the recumbent bikes when the new song from American Idol winner Kelly Clarkson came on the radio. There was an audible increase in the level of chatter coming from a few college girls exercising behind me. When the chorus came on, they couldn't help but to sing along:

"Since you've been gone
I can breathe for the first time
I'm so movin on
Yeah, yeah
Thanks to you
Now I get
I get what I want
Since you've been gone"

It turns out that one of the best things ever to happen to Kelly Clarkson was breaking up with her wretched boyfriend. He probably did terrible, controlling things to her, like ask her for a BJ every once in a while. Now that he's gone, she can "breathe for the first time!" Here's to "movin on!"

All of which got me to thinking. It's exactly as a poster here recently said. It's not marriage that's the anachronism in 21st century America, it's the male species! Other than providing a paycheck (or simply being the paycheck, in many cases) there is no reason to need a man around anymore.

Harvard's president Larry Summers is under pressure because he (correctly) speculated that differences between male and female brains explain why there are few women at top universities in science and maths. The feminists are using this to point to yet another example of a glass ceiling in which women are held back from the high paying jobs. All of which is irrelevant, as this firestorm of controversy obscures that fact that within 10 years or less, many of the high-paying math and science jobs (which men excel at) will be gone, having been sent to India or China. All that will be left in this country will be soft social-skills jobs that require high degrees of personal interaction and empathy (which women excel at).

As women begin to earn more of the money and become the primary breadwinner in more and more households (it is happening today, look at the numbers) the importance of the male in the American family will furthur diminish. President Hillary is only the beginning.

Probably within 50 years, masculinity itself will be viewed as a vice, not a virtue, and assailed as a primary contributor to violence in society. Laws will be passed, re-education camps will be formed, where men get together to "talk about their feelings" in order to coerce the last bit of manhood out of them.

Even further into the future, one can imagine a worst-case-scenario where men are born in slavery, kept in pods contained in vast fields, and periodically harvested, milked if you will, of their sperm at the whim of the female rulers. Because, despite the female's greatest efforts, asexual reproduction is simply unachievable. However, when engaging in recreational intercourse with each other, the females will still rely on that old standby, the strap-on dildo. (beacause a tongue is no substitute for that feeling of fullness!)

Myself, I hope by then to either be retired to a 3rd world country or dead.

Rubber Nursey

03-06-05, 18:06

No need for sperm farms - there's always cloning if we want to have babies. ;)

Sinanju Master

03-06-05, 18:37

Long Stroker, what you described is a science-fiction variant of Amazon society from ancient Greek mythology. Men were seen as the enemy and useful ONLY for propagating their society. Upon capture, they were killed either outright, or they were made to be sperm donors and THEN killed after they served their purpose.

I also see such a grim (distant?) future upon us; the eyes and minds of men are blinded and dulled while we are led around by the only part that seems to do the thinking for many of us. Being used only as a harvesting vessel and existing at the whim of someone who is IL-LOGICAL for about one week out of the month is scary as shit.

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you...."

Joe Zop

03-06-05, 21:24

Gosh, yes, why, it sounds almost as bad as being seen as basically a baby factory and scullery maid... :D

And Larry Summers' primary point was that the expectations of the jobs -- which require single-minded focus, often to the detriment of family, were the greatest factor, with possible brain differences being secondary, and socialization and job discrimination pressures being third.

Yes, there are tons more women in the US workforce -- basically half of all workers. The AFL-CIO (also the source for the rest below) says that in 2000 17.8% of families were maintained by women, and that is definitely more than previously, when it was around half of that.

Now, I know I'm gonna get reamed for this but...

Before we start just throwing blame elsewhere, and saying marriage clearly doesn't work because women just don't need men, perhaps it's also time for men to admit their own complicity in the equation. The average husband does about 37% of the household labor, regardless of whether the wife works or not. Sixty percent of working women have full-time jobs, 63% of those work more than 40 hours per week, and 68% of working mothers work more than 40 hours. Americans are workaholics -- we average nine weeks more work in hours per year that do our brethren in Europe. And the vast majority of parents describe themselves as "used up" by the end of the workday. The truth is that guys simply can't lean on the "I'm the breadwinner so when I get home I deserve to relax and get what I want" argument any more because women are working every bit as much.

Here's the bottom line -- women in relationships with an equitable division of household labor are less prone to depression, more likely to be sexually attracted to their spouses and have better sexual relations.

To me, that's not an argument that women don't need men; it's an argument that they do.

PsyberZombie

03-07-05, 00:52

Long Stroker wrote =

" Probably within 50 years, masculinity itself will be viewed as a vice, not a virtue, and assailed as a primary contributor to violence in society. Laws will be passed, re-education camps will be formed, where men get together to "talk about their feelings" in order to coerce the last bit of manhood out of them. "

Can we guys get together to "talk about our feelings" at the local Strip Club ??

Better still = how about at the local Brothel ??

If so , Count ME In !!

Confucious say :

" Wife who send Husband to Dog House
... soon find him in Cat House "

Sinanju Master

03-07-05, 02:39

LOL PZ, pearls of wisdom like THAT are why many sought the counsel of Confucius

Mike12

03-07-05, 08:38

Lots of good posts here, funny, informative, and right to the point. Makes for good reading and learning all around.

On the subject of games, come on now, most women love them. They play games, act like drama queens, and throw invisible gauntlets down for the man to surpass in their mind. Why do you think women love soap operas, Housewives, Sex and the City, and gossip magazines. They can include this drama in their lives by manifesting it in Games. Create drama to feel like they are a character out of Sex and the city. I was a participant in "The Life and Times of a NYC Courtesan" starring ..... ..... until I wised up before my wallet went bust. When I was straight up with no games and just a gentleman it got me nowhere. Now that I can dish out the business, things are more on an equal level. It's a shame though. When traveling to other countries I get by on my own merits with no games for the most part.

Have a friend that pulls lots of chicks. The way he does it is by maintaining the big willie rap star image. He's got the fur coat, bling bling, Prada shirt, luxury cars, etc etc. Pulled one aspiring model type by telling her "you might have seen me in a 50cent video". Another one by flashing cash, and still more by alluding to big money connects and entertainment hookups. Hey, Who can resist a non-threatening, cool, rapper type anyway? Most of these chicks are barracudas though, so it hard for him to keep their company. They have real ambitious goals like copping E, emulating Brittany, meeting rapstars, partying hard, driving Lexuses, and being shallow. I dealt with one dancer chick one time and her behaviour was such a turnoff I didn't even bang her when the chance came. He's a great guy, good looking, and real personable, but this is what he has to do to get with these girls.

PsyberZombie

03-07-05, 11:58

Confucious say =

" Women's panties not best thing in world , but next to it !! "

Confucious also say =

" Man who put cream in tart not necessarily baker "

Sinanju Master

03-07-05, 19:28

Mike12, it's precisely that kind of bullshit that makes me think: "You say you want a gentleman, but you treat him like a fucking butler when you meet him! When you meet a shark in dolphin's clothing, you run to him like a mindless lemming and WONDER why your heart has been gutted from your chest cavity!" IN-FUCKING-CREDIBLE!

Smut Villain

03-08-05, 02:35

PsyberZombie

03-08-05, 12:10

the following is from an advice column in the most recent edition of a tabloid called the new york press =

how many hookers have the horndogs hired?

by judy mcguire
dategirl@nypress.com

i've had girlfriends, and now a wife, but i've never been with a
pro. drawing on your extensive research, can you tell me how those
experiences differ from dating or marital sex? is it the attraction
of the illicit, or just the desire of a professional to please a
client, or is there something more to it?

—name withheld

there are about a million different reasons one decides to go the
pay-for-play route. a girlfriend of mine hired a variety of male
escorts in order to get back at her philandering husband. another
pal is very specific about his physical specifications—he likes big
butts and he cannot lie! he can't always find these qualities in
the women he dates, so he occasionally leases.

the rent-girl/boy's appeal is obvious; an attractive someone comes
over to your apartment (or, even better, a hotel), you give him/her
an agreed-upon fee, he/she gives you an orgasm. there's no need to
sit through his band's cd or feign interest in her extensive
collection of troll figurines. you both know what you're there for,
so you don't have to engage in that sometimes exciting, but
all-too-often-exhausting, mating dance.

we womenfolk like to think it's just the grotesquely disfigured
fella who's hiring all those hookers. you know, the man so
physically repulsive it renders him completely unfuckable by all
but the most strong-stomached and well-paid professionals. but
contrary to what we ladies might want to think, these poor souls
are the minority. lots of guys—lots of perfectly good looking,
normal guys—either have paid or will pay for sex at some point in
their life.

it's not like you can tell a potential hooker-hirer just by looking
at him. sure, some guys are easy—the leghumping douchebag you
caught peeking through the crack in the ladies room door, the
asshole misogynist who works in sales, the cripplingly shy nerd who
walks your dog—these guys are all likely candidates. but what about
that sweet elderly gentleman who's dating your aunt sarah? he may
be ponying up sawbucks to have an **** tranny take a crap in
his mouth.

then there's the dude who wants what he wants when he wants it.
when he decides he'd like a little oral action and he's either
temporarily single, or out of town or in the mood for a redhead
instead of a blonde, he dials 1-800-blowjob, much in the way he
orders a new pair of pants. for him everything boils down to
commerce, and he gives getting laid about as much thought as he
does getting a boil lanced.

of course there are the scamps who get off on the thrill of doing
something naughty. much like so many young girls think themselves
all scandalous by playing lesbian 'til graduation, these guys will
eventually grow up and realize that there's really very little that
will shock anyone anymore.

then again, there are the women-haters who feel that at base all
dames are *****s anyway, but i like to think that there aren't too
many of them.

some johns are just bored and horny, still others have a kink
that's not easily negotiated in "mainstream" society. i mean, there
are women who won't put a dick in their mouths. imagine what
happens to a guy who is really out there in terms of what gets him
hot? can you understand how frightening it is for the average guy
to tell his new girlfriend he can only get off if he's dressed in
full stinky [CodeWord131] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord131), with a ball gag in his mouth, the soundtrack
from diva on volume 11, all the lights on and the curtains open? at
best, your average woman would think him a freak; at worst, she's
laughing at him, then running out the door while screaming. but
with a hired helping hand, he doesn't have this worry because
anything that he could possibly cook up, there's no doubt she's
seen weirder.

volume 18, issue 9

©2005 all rights reserved.
no part of this website may be reproduced in any manner without
written permission of the publisher yeah right

http://nypress.com/18/9/news&columns/dategirl.cfm

CBGBConnisur

03-10-05, 03:02

A good way to get an idea of American women versus foreign women is to visit Canada. In Montreal, for example, a good escort costs about $100 US, a similar quality girl in a medium sized US city will charge at least $300 and in bigger cities it will get even more expensive. In Montreal prostitution is legal, and the more European culture tends to look at sex as less of a big deal. A woman isn't a sort of prize that she is in the States. In fact, walking down a street in Montreal during the summer one will be amazed at the sheer quantity and quality of women.

If you go to Europe or Latin America it gets even better as there are gorgeous ladies everywhere. I vacationed recently in Austria(not to be confused with Australia where I currently reside as an expat) and the houselady was this rather attractive Bulgarian 20 something. She was a very stunning women, yet was amazed me was how approachable and friendly she was, she even offered to personally take me on a tour of the city where I was visiting, Vienna. Most of women of her caliber in the States are often arrogant and condescending yet this girl was nothing like that. I was walking down the street in Vienna and I saw a lot of elegant looking European women who were completely approachable. Similar women in the States(if you could find them) would not be so friendly. If I walked up to a total stranger and played stupid, I would get a friendly smile. In some instances, I would be able to get their phone number for a date, and this was in a middle of a large European city!! Some mild diplomacy went a long way. Something like this would never happen with women in Boston or some other big city in the States.

Rubber Nursey

03-10-05, 06:08

No sex thanks - I'm Australian

March 09, 2005
From: AAP

AUSTRALIAN women are fatter and less interested in sex than a decade ago with many more single and childless, according to a government report released to mark International Women's Day today.

The Women in Australia 2004 report also shows that almost three quarters of the nation's women do little or no exercise and continue to earn less than males, receiving on average 84 per cent of the amounts earned by the opposite sex.

But more women than men are studying and women's labour force participation has hit its highest level with 66 per cent of all women working.

"Today is about celebrating those achievements and inspiring a commitment to sustaining and improving the position of women in Australia," Family and Community Services Minister Kay Patterson said.

The report shows the median age of Australian women has increased to 36.9 years in 2003 from 30.8 years in 1983, more than half are not interested in sex and about a quarter will not have children.

The number of women living alone rose to 13 per cent in 2003 from 11 per cent a decade earlier, while about 43.2 per cent of women were now likely to be overweight and 17.4 per cent were likely to be obese.

The report was compiled using a variety of studies from the Australian Bureau of Statistics and health organisations.

Long Stroker

03-10-05, 09:01

In his 1914 book, "America and the Philippines", writer Carl Crow views the first decade of the American colonization as a Golden Age of sorts. It was an era, he tells us, where Filipinos and Americans socialized freely, ignoring the strict racial divisions that were so prevalent elsewhere in the world at the time. This meant, of course, that American men were free to socialize with the local women. He writes,

“During the period just after the war Americans attended parties given by the prominent Filipinos and danced with the wives and daughters of their hosts. For a time they were on a social equality and it appeared that all men were really free and equal just as they are in the Constitution of the United States and nowhere else.”

Yet Crow laments that this paradise was soon to be spoiled. As the Philippines grew more politically stable and thus safer for foreigners, the wives and families of the American men in the Philippines began to arrive by ship. If the author is to be believed, the arrival of foreign women in the Philippines meant an end to the social and racial equalities that had been enjoyed by Filipinos to that point.

“Enter, then, the American woman. Peace had been secured and wives came out to join their husbands. At once another campaign against the Filipinos began. The social barriers set up by the American woman were quite as impregnable as those their hero husbands had built against the insurrectos (Filipino insurrectionists). The engagement was short but decisive, and ended with a second defeat for the Filipinos, for they were barred from the American drawing rooms...The American man, as usual, allowed his wife to regulate his social affairs, and as a result no Filipino is admitted to the clubs, and there is no place in Manila where the two races can meet socially on an equal footing.”

Thus, in Crow’s view, the arrival of American women in the Philippines was directly responsible for the segregation of Filipinos and Americans. Should a reader be unclear as to this accusation, Crow states with more emphasis that,

“The social seclusion of the American woman (i.e., her unwillingness to socialize with Filipinos) would not be so deplorable if there was any justification for it, other than race prejudice!”

-from filipinawives.com

Simply amazing stuff! 100 years and nothing's changed. Everyone hates competition, especially American Women.

CBGBConnisur

03-10-05, 14:25

As bad as those stats are for Australia, almost 70 percent of American women are either overweight or obese. So you have a seven in ten chance of meeting a fat American woman. If 43 percent of Australian women are overweight or obese, it means more than half of them are in reasonable shape. The best thing about Australia is that I get longer vacations than in the States, about 5-6 weeks a year versus the measly 2 I used to have in the US, so i get plenty of time to escape and visit other countries.

Rubber Nursey

03-10-05, 14:33

Maybe that's why Aussie gals are getting fatter - too many holidays (and as you know, holidays mean BBQs and copious amounts of beer!) and not enough sex to burn it all off!! :)

By the way...does anyone happen to know what percentage of American MEN are overweight or obese?

***Edit: Answered my own question. http://www.obesity.org/subs/fastfacts/obesity_US.shtml
Seems American women might just have as much to complain about as American men do!

Freeler

03-10-05, 21:29

RN,

"and not enough sex to burn it all off!! :)"

I'm puzzled about the :). What's so funny about not enough sex:(?

On a whole different note,

A Dutch uni professor said that polygamy is the way for the future with so many women working and not enough cuddle time at home. The ladies should consider sharing their man.
I give that idea a big 'YEA!'.

Travis Bickle 2

03-11-05, 02:12

American women are simply the mirror images of American men. I know at least a dozen men in their fifties with the big beer gut thing going on, and wearing sweats, and the grey disheveled beard who would not consider going out with a woman any older than forty, particularly if she was twenty or more pounds overweight. They have really high standards for their women and rarely compromise. Guess what? Most haven't been laid lately and their prospects aren't getting any better.

It really amazes these guys that a hot woman in her twenties or thirties who can get any guy she wants, picks a younger more attractive man or a guy who makes lots of money. Duh! Just as we American men don't give the time of day to unattractive women, neither do American women give the time of day to beer bellied guys with lousy jobs. It's supply and demand.

It's funny though. I work with a lot of young, tall, good-looking guys and I never hear them complain about American women. Usually just about how often they get laid and such. Even in other countries another factor might be in play. Given a choice between Tom Cruise or Danny DeVito, most women of other countries would pick Tom, however Danny would have chicks lined up around the block. I think people in other countries think Americans all have tons of money and that helps. It's interesting that when they get to the states they become instantly as picky as American women. It would appear to me they just don't have as many wealthy guys to pick from over there. I just don't believe they pass though a force-field as they step off the plane that turns them into gold-diggers instantly.

But other than that I agree with you guys. The days have long since passed that I can go into a night club and walk out with a hot chick. So I pick up hookers, and every so often travel to foreign countries where I pay women to pretend like I'm still young and handsome. And then I go home to my forty-eight year old S/O with the saggy boobs and wake up.

Civ2000

Rubber Nursey

03-11-05, 02:36

There's NOTHING funny about not having enough sex!!! Aside from the fact that I miss the sex itself, I've never been fitter than I was when I was a working girl. It tones up every muscle in your body and (depending on how enthusiastic you are, I guess) is an excellent cardio-vascular workout as well. It's also a brilliant stress-buster.

Here's a bizarre theory...what if it's the fact that we're not having as much sex as we used to, that's contributing to the ridiculously high rates of obesity and stress-related illness in Western society? What would happen if all those overweight and/or stressed out people started having regular sex? The physical exercise is obviously going to help tone bodies and reduce stress and frustration. The endorphins released at orgasm are much more potent than chocolate or icecream, reducing the desire to indulge in 'comfort food'. Having someone worship your body on a regular basis is exceedingly good for your self-esteem (low self-esteem is a very common excuse for depression and overeating) and when you feel sexy and desirable, you pay more attention to how you're treating your body and what junk you're putting into it. And it's well documented that the more sex you have, the more you want. Not to mention the more sex you're having, the more other people find you physically attractive (its true!) Eventually everyone would be banging away like rabbits and obesity and stress would become a thing of the past.

So what are you politicians waiting for? The only way to kick-start this thing is to decriminalise sex work, recognise hookers as health professionals and brothels as treatment clinics, subsidise escort appointments for both men and women and lets get F*CKING! The health of the Western world depends on it!!! :p

Rubber Nursey

03-11-05, 05:08

"Just as we American men don't give the time of day to unattractive women, neither do American women give the time of day to beer bellied guys with lousy jobs".

AMEN TO THAT! Everyone here knows that's the truth, but they very rarely say it out loud. I don't know how many times over the years I've been called 'frigid' etc, by men 20 or 30 years older than me, with beer bellies, BO and ketchup stains down the front of their unwashed shirts, because I said no to their advances. Face it - as frustrating as it is, most of us will never sleep with a supermodel. Most 50 year olds will never do it with someone under 25. Most overweight and/or unattractive people won't be able to pick up the hottest person in the room. Doesn't mean that it will NEVER happen - but the chances are pretty darn slim.

And us girls aren't immune to this, either. There are plenty of women out there targeting men who are waaaay out of their league. They're passing up the good-natured, cuddly gentleman their own age, in the hope of scoring themselves a young, fit toyboy with buns of steel. And they end up going home alone. Why would a young stud choose a thirty-five year old mother of two, when there are 100 young, fit cuties in the club that he can take his pick from?

GettingTang

03-11-05, 05:51

"Why would a young stud choose a thirty-five year old mother of two, when there are 100 young, fit cuties in the club that he can take his pick from?"

This is why the term.............."So many women, so little time" applies to guys like me :)

Rubber Nursey

03-11-05, 06:01

That's the spirit, Tang!! :)

CBGBConnisur

03-11-05, 22:30

Money plays a big role in finding an American woman, but it plays a role with women anywhere. Women around the world will rarely consider a foreigner unless he is perceived to be affluent. That is why people who come from more affluent countries to less affluent societies are treated well by women. I think in America a man's looks are irrelevant, there are many cases of good looking women marrying rather unattractive men for the sole purpose of finding a meal ticket. If you bring a foreign woman into America she will most likely behave no differently from an American woman and will go after a guy with money. In fact a foriegn lady might even be worse because she will have some ridiculously high expectations. I have heard of guys bringing in foreign women only to be dumped/divorced once the green card came or they found a richer better looking guy. The general consensus around the world associates American males with being financially well to do. The best situation is for American men living abroad to take advantage of the fact that there is little competition outside the US in finding a good date.

Sporadic

03-12-05, 00:18

Ever look at the ladies who are in first class?

If you are well-heeled enough (or lucky enough to get the upgrade from Biz, as is my case) you know what I am talking about.

Musicians, board level businessmen, celebrities of almost any stripe, are almost exclusively accompanied by stunning partners (RN, please note the gender neutrality here before you blast me!)

While there are seriously powerful/wealthy/important people who fly coach, the first class types are either serious trash or seriously wealthy. The wealthy ones are never ugly/fat/unfashionable, unless they are the man.

Money = power = attractive. Nothing new here. I do not think this is an exclusively "American woman" problem. "Trophy partners" cross all borders and cultural lines IMHO.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Sinanju Master

03-12-05, 00:54

rn, you're right about anyone going toward the deep end when he/she can't even stay afloat without a flotation device, much less being able to swim in those waters. when i was a lot younger (my teens) i had tastes that gravitated toward the ubermodel. as i've accumulated a few years, i've relaxed my standards (not lowered them) to include those who could possibly bring something to the table that i may not be able to perceive at the moment. i still like ultra-attractive women, but i refuse to play their game by falling at their feet like some sailor made mad by the song of the sirens. i've looked twice (discreetly) at some women that my friends may turn up their at. i have my tastes and they have theirs.

my peeve is when women expect the sky when they are in need of a serious reality check that will show them they are worthy only of the soil the stand on. the following is an example from which i posted quite a while back.

i was chatting with a friend (a czech chick who was a former model and yes, i wanted to fuck the shit out of her) and she told me that a mutual acquiantance was lamenting the fact that she was w/o a bf. this chick told me that elizabeth was too picky and that she wanted to date guys who wore italian suits, drove high-end sports cars and either had cash like no tomorrow or were high-powered executives. i won't begrudge a woman that fantasy, but this was her standard and she was wondering why she had ni man in her life! to put things in perspective, elizabeth would rate a 4 at best on any man's scale. this level of cluelessness in women amazes me. and rn, before you reach again for the hatchet to bury in my skull, take note that in the past, i've acknowledged that i'm no adonis and i've never held a double standard regarding said subject. it's the "fork-tongued" phenomena (women saying one thing and meaning another and expecting a man to believe it outright) that has me yelling foul.

Long Stroker

03-12-05, 08:06

In order to see this issue more clearly, we must focus on the vast middle area in this discussion. I'm not crying because I can't go out to a bar here in the states, bring a 10 home and bang her. Super-hot girls (and guys) have always lived in a different universe than you or I, and that's only natural.

For all intents and purposes and for the sake of my argument, I'm referring to average looking males and average looking females. No massive beer-bellies or heifers. I'm talking about young and middle-aged people in the prime of their dating and babymaking lives.

As I see it, the problem is not 10s acting like 10s. That kind of behavior is to be expected. The problem is 5,6, and 7s acting like they're 10s. It's this artificially inflated idea of self-worth that has no basis in reality that really disgusts a lot a guys I know. She's an average normal looking girl, not a super hot chick. And yet she won't give an average looking guy the time of day.

A perfect example of this is Sinanju Master's Elizabeth who will only date guys who wear Italian suits and drive Ferraris. And she's a 4! One might be forgiven for thinking that this girl is simply out of her mind, an insane anomaly not to be concerned with. Sadly, her belief system is shared by many of her sisters.

Where does this type of thinking come from? It's no big mystery.

From the moment they sprout boobs, females in this country are taught that the world, no, make that the universe, revolves around them. Hollywood, MTV, Cosmo reinforce this idea of "Girl Power!", advising females to "Kick Butt!" like your favorite Charlie's Angel, and don't worry, because you don't need a man to be complete.

Does anyone remember the last song from one of pop's current princesses, Avril Lavigne, called Don't Tell Me?

Avril's song is basically about this poor slob who has been spending time with her lately. He has listened to her crying about whatever bullshit crisis is currently embroiling her life. Yes, he is functioning as an emotional tampon, but that's not the key point here. The point is her response to his advances. Not content to simply brush him off and move on, she threatens to assault him:

"Don't think that you're charming, the fact that your arm is now around my neck
If you touch my pants I'll have to kick your ass and make you never forget"

She ends the song with:

"Better off that way ...
I'm better off alone anyway"

Well, baby, if present trends continue, you will get your wish. As noted here recently by PsyberZombie, in his most excellent post which can be read here:

http://www.*************.info/forum/showpost.php?p=342344&postcount=2129

Throughout the western world, the number of single person households is on the rise: "In the UK census data reveals that the number of single person households grew by 14% between 1991 and 2001." Nearly 15% growth in ten years. That's not a demographic blip, that's a full-on shift.

CBGBConnisur, I agree with you when you say: "If you bring a foreign woman into America she will most likely behave no differently from an American woman and will go after a guy with money."

Perhaps this thread would be more appropriatly titled "Women in American Society," because any woman, once exposed to the atmosphere and options available in this great country of ours, will most likely begin behaving, and making decisions similar to her native American sisters.

I am reminded of an old saying (actually posted by somebody here, I think) that goes something like:

"The man has all the money, but the woman has all the pussy."

Each party has something the other wants, so arrangements are made, agreements are arrived at. Right or wrong, that's how it's worked for thousands of years.

But that expression is no longer accurate. Revised for this modern era, to reflect the ascendence of the two-income household and female financial independence, one might say:

"The man has half of the money, but the woman also has half the money and still all of the pussy." (not to mention ALL of the rights when it comes to divorce court and family court.) How can you arrive at a deal when one side holds vastly more bargaining chips? I mean, really?

Some will no doubt object to my boiling down of the vast complexity of male/female relationships to something as simplistic as "dealmaking." But when you get down to it, isn't that all it truly is?

So, what then? Am I advocating a return to the days of female servitude and 2nd class citizenship? Of course not. But, I for one am truly concerned for the future. Birthrates in ALL of the major western countries are falling, with the exception of the U.S. Men and women are so sick of each other's perceived bullshit that they have just about given up trying to get along, settling for loveless marriages or no marriage at all. And the only reason the U.S. birthrate isn't falling as well is due to the projected increase of the Hispanic population, through immigration and through the relatively high birthrate of Hispanics already here.

I feel that the gulf of perception that exists between the sexes in the industrialized world is practically insurmountable. The wants and needs of each gender are so far apart from what the other is willing or able to provide as to be laughable. I have no answers, only dread for the future.

Sinanju Master

03-12-05, 15:11

LS, actually, I posted your paraphrased saying a while back. A friend told it to me a LONG TOME AGO and it goes like this: "Women have HALF the money and ALL the pussy", but you got the idea.

In your analysis, you also pulled back the curtain to expose the Great and powerful OZ. Women will gush about finding the perfect partner (making you believe YOU are the one) gush about the wedding (after all THAT is what it's all about; a day dedicated SOLELY to THEM to feed their ego) but fail to plan ahead of time for the feelings that will be most common the day AFTER "Happily Ever After". If a guy feels trapped when a woman brings up the issue of marriage, he has good reason as stated by LS in his most recent post. Coming to the table BEFORE marriage, the balance of power is about as evenly balanced as it's ever going to get because the woman has no legal and sexual "Sword of Damocles" hanging over his head to force compliance if something makes him balk. After the paper is signed and the wedding completed, he can kiss half his assets and ALL his freedom (NOT freedom to fuck around, I don't advocate cheating by EITHER sex) goodbye. Regarding LS's post on increasing single-dom and the dears I just stated, why WOULD a guy want to enter into such a situation? Especially if the party that gains power after the marriage ALREADY has an inflated sense of ENTITLEMENT?

CBGB has the perfect solution: marry them but keep them in their own country.

Smut Villain

03-13-05, 03:06

Seems like women always ask that age-old question: "why are men so afraid of commitment"?

Reading the last few posts here seems to pretty much answer that question.

CBGBConnisur

03-13-05, 16:29

I think an American male who visits a foreign country with a lower standard of living than the US will find that his rapport with local women will be better than with women back home. The perception being that Americans are rich, what criteria makes a person "rich" varies around the world. In some parts of Europe, where there is double digit unemployment most women will be happy with a guy with a job. The more affluent the society the more they will expect. Go to a Latin American country and any American male in good health will be treated like Hugh Hefner.

The Czech girl mentioned below lives in the States so her expectations and attitude are no different than most native born American women. Go to her home country and the attitude of local women will be much different.

Rubber Nursey

03-13-05, 18:03

'The World' doesn't see Americans as rich. POOR PEOPLE see Americans as rich - just as they see people from Australia and Britain and any other 'developed' country as being rich. If *I* travelled to a developing nation, I'd probably have local men falling over themselves to impress me enough to get a plane ticket to Australia. There are people in every country looking for a free meal ticket, including your own. Go down to your local 'trailor park' in an Armani suit and a BMW and you'll be beating women off with a stick! Its not because you're American - its because you can give them a way out of the hell they're living in.

And then, of course, there's gold diggers - who exist in every country and in BOTH genders. Men and women who are willing to lie, cheat and prostitute themselves in order to live a life of luxury at someone else's expense. (For the record, I can probably overlook deception from a person motivated by the desperation of poverty - I have nothing but contempt for gold diggers).

But one thing many of you seem to be forgetting when comparing 'foreign' women in their OWN country to American women, is the power of the 'holiday romance'. If I have the choice of an Aussie bloke or an American tourist for a one nighter, who am I gonna pick? The guy with the sexy accent who is leaving the country in a few days, or the ordinary guy on the street who is probably gonna ask for my phone number and hassle me for sex at a later date? The American guy is also in 'holiday mode', so he's more likely to take me out and show me a good time, PLUS he's more likely to spoil me rotten and treat me like a princess in order to get into my pants as quickly as possible, because time is not on his side. Local girls are always gonna find a tourist an attractive option for a no-strings shag.

And 'foreigners' are exotic (especially if you are a white person in a dark-skinned country or vice versa). I'm sure my Aussie accent and tanned skin would have a good degree of pulling power in other countries (certainly more than it has here, anyway!). And I, personally, love African-American men and Latin women. And I could sit and listen to an Irishman or an Eastender or a Texan cowboy all night long. A black man with a Southern drawl who can't pick up in his own country, would have a whoooole lotta luck in mine. :)

It's not ALL about the money, you know. Some of us just like to f*ck exotic strangers who are guaranteed to bugger off in the morning and never come back! LOL

Sinanju Master

03-13-05, 22:35

holy crap! it's... like... rn peered into my head regarding the "holiday romance" thing! lolol

Joe Zop

03-14-05, 16:34

If we go with the equation that Long Stroker notes, which is that women in American society are earning pretty much the same as men with the same opportunities, and are working in much the same numbers, then doesn't that shift the "divorce is hell because she gets half of my shit" equation? Doesn't it really become "our shit" in a much truer sense?

Well said, RN, regarding the attraction of foreigners and the exotic.

Daddy Rulz

03-14-05, 18:34

RN are you telling us that sometimes you just want to pick up a stranger and fuck him blind and not see him again? I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you!!!

By the way Daddy lives in The Great State of Texas Hmmmmmmmm maybe I should be going to Oz?

Mikster

03-14-05, 20:24

I am quited interested in this discussion now that I have checked out this board. Thanks Long Stroker. This doesnt necessarily pertain to American women, but I think I am in love with a Peruvian girl I met on my recent trip. I have been extremely cynical and jaded about women in recent years and to discover mongering in foreign countries has been like a godsend to me. Now I dont look at American women or make any attempt at all to even befriend them, much less date or bang them. Anyway I met this girl and she was a real sweetheart and I felt enamored very quickly. She was just so completely opposite (so I think) of anyone here in the states I had ever dated.

I have thought about the quotes I have heard here recently that love equals defeat. The other night on the phone I uttered the dreaded phrase, "I love you." She had been saying it to me repeatedly in peru and on the phone after I returned. AS soon as the words left my mouth I thought, "oh shit, now you've fucked up. Why did you say that you fucking idiot?" I felt like I had just lost all the power leverage, or power, I possessed in the relationship and handed it over to her. Now I feel like I have lost what got her to want me in the first place. The fact that I was so unattainable to her. There has been no apparent change in her attitude that I can detect. Still sweet as sugar, still asks me for nothing, pays her own english lessons and turned down my offer to help her out a little. As in, too good to be true. But now theres no going back, I cant call her and say, "hey, Im not really sure if love you or not, I was in a good mood and happy to here your voice and got carried away. Lets take it slow and see what happens." This would effectively fuck everything up.

Do most of you guys really believe that to love is to lose with the vast majority of women, or just american women? How do you feel in these matters when it comes to foreign women in third world countries such as Peru? Is there no hope anymore for loving someone and winning? Sometimes I feel that way, more often than not. I had become convinced that I would remain single forever and just find a nice girl or two to visit in other countries as often as I can, or just go and monger exclusively and forget finding a nice girl altogether.

If I sound confused and fucked up about all this its because I am. I dont know what to believe anymore or what to do when it comes to potential relationships. I always feel that no matter what I do, I am going to either make the wrong decision, or lose no matter what I do. Well, I guess thats all for now. maybe someone can straighten me out.

Later

Milkster

PsyberZombie

03-15-05, 01:29

Sounds like Mikster has finally met a Trvly Feminine Woman for the first time in his life

Go back and read Post # 2129 here to see what I mean , Mikster

Daddy Rulz

03-15-05, 06:51

I agree with PS as an American it's difficult for us to understand the depth of love latinas are capable of. Even the pro's engage in a way that American women don't. Like you I found a really wonderful women in South America and sometimes it's difficult to accept that She does love me as She says She does. Is it a forever thing? It's too soon to tell but Shes as amazing as anybody I've ever met. I understand your conundrum though, perhaps you do have loving feelings for this woman but are still unsure if it's a lifelong thing who knows. Good luck sorting it out.

Chicago62

03-15-05, 07:12

Having been married to an American women and my first Mongering adventures to Asia in 1992. I realized 6 years into my marriage that I needed to somehow dump the *****...It took my nearly 6 years longer to grow the balls to do just that. During the time loving those asian babes. Koreans, chinese, Thai, Phillipinas. I got caught with a Korean babe. Finally I was able to get out.

Since then I have been happy chases Asian and Latina girls. I really enjoy the Asians... I will finally marry a great Chinese Babe...She's even a sales rep who makes great money... Can anyone say whoooyeah!!! Retirement....Any way stay away from American women they suck money hungry bitches who should all learn that they need to take care of their men not squeeze them for everything they have.

Chicago62

Rubber Nursey

03-16-05, 02:25

I know I'm probably biased because of my own recent experience, but here's my opinion....cherish the moment, darlin'. The woman you care about, cares about you. It may be love or it may be just lust, but you'll never know if you don't give it a chance. Don't question it. Don't jinx it. And for gawd's sake, don't run away from it!!! Just enjoy it, babe. You're a lucky man. :)

Long Stroker

03-16-05, 06:59

..the divorce equation should shift toward a more even and equitable distribution of assets. But, isn't it true that the wife gets the house in 9 out of 10 cases and custody of the kids, too? American family court will presume that the man has neither the desire nor the ability to care for his offspring by himself, unless he can under burden of proof prove otherwise. Kind of like guilty until proven innocent?

Yes, both husband and wife may toil equally to build a home and a family, but if in the end, the woman takes possession of all that really matters, where does that leave the man?

PsyberZombie

03-16-05, 12:59

... is the title of a book that is highly recommended reading for men every·where

Not only do women hold all the aces when it comes to Divorce Court , but they also have out·rageous advantages in every area of Life : from the criminal justice system to the work·place to health care [ just as many men die of prostate cancer as women do from breast cancer , so where are our little ribbons and billions in Research ?? ]

Here's a small taste of the book , and bear in mind that it was written before the phrase "hostile work·place environment" turned every female co·worker in·to a little Femi·nazi who keeps her male compatriots quaking in their boots at even the thought of telling an off·color Joke let alone hanging a pin·up calender in their cubicle =

http://*******.com/6t2ly

Joe Zop

03-16-05, 17:38

LS, I think it's too early to tell how things will shake out, given that the serious rise to working equity is a relatively recent phenomena. Yes, in most cases custody is awarded to the woman, but it's also true that most guys do not request primary or sole custody and when they do fight for custody they have a far better chance of getting it. The difference in the percentage of men and women who don't seek custody is massive, and that can't simply be dismissed as a contributing cause for the disparity in custodial or asset distribution situations.

Unless men SAY they want custody they're not going to get it. And those guys (and I know several) who fight for custody out of a desire to continue to control their soon-to-be ex-spouses (generally guys who did the same during the marriage, but given that men tend to view wife and kids as a package deal also some more) certainly don't help the equation. The truth is that child support isn't really awarded as disproportionately as you might expect -- it's about 60/40 in favor of women. And given that, the majority of all marriages that end in divorce do so where there are kids, the issue really comes down to handling the kids.

Joint custody is really the wedge issue -- according to a study done in 1997, in states that had a high level of encouraging joint physical custody the divorce rate declined approximately twice as much as in states that did so in a moderate sense, and eight times as much as in places that heavily favored sole custody. That reduction may have to do with custody, control, or perhaps just how a court may potentially view splitting up assets.

But joint custody also makes it a bit inaccurate to say that 9 times out of 10 the woman gets custody -- women get sole custody about 72% of the time, with joint custody in about 16% of the cases. Still a disparity, but if I recall correctly it's not that dramatically different than the actual percentage of requests by guys to get all or a portion of custody of the kids.

I don't think it's really guilty until presumed innocent: I think it's guilty until demonstrated interested.

Mikster

03-17-05, 19:40

Thanks for the input to my posting, I appreciate it. We'll see how things shake out. I had a couple other things on my mind as well.

She told me the other day that she wanted to get a job so she wouldnt need me to help her with english school. Its a long story why she is not currently working, but trust me I verified it and its not an issue. Anyway, she wrote me last night and said she had obtained employment at a nearby casino as a waitress, the beverage kind, not in the restaurant if they even have one. I have been to casinos in Lima and elsewhere and I know what she is in for, and I suspect that she also knows. As in getting hit on by customers constantly, as well as other workers there. She probably has to wear a short skirt. I am wondering if this is a red flag at all. I was upset at first, and she got real upset for me not liking the idea and taking up some of these issues. Anyway, what are your thoughts on this? Anything to worry about in your opinions?

On a more topical note i am also wondering about how we act and treat the ladies from places like Peru. WE all know in America you need to be kind of a jerk and have the I dont give a shit attitude, dont say I love you, dont be sweet and dont act like a sensitive pus, etc. etc. When some of you guys were romancing the latin women, did you have the same attitude, as in being a jerk, a bad boy, etc? Or did you give show them your feelings and be a nice guy and truly be yourself and give in to how you really wanted to be? I had mixed feelings about this when I was there, I wasnt sure exactly if they really wanted a nice guy or not, or if it was just bullshit. They all say they hate the "machistas" so on would think being the nice guy would be the way to go. Its just so unnatural to be that way after living in the states all my life and learning how to get women here.

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

Later

Mikster

Rubber Nursey

03-18-05, 03:02

Of course she's upset. You may be only concerned for her welfare, but she's only hearing you say two things -- a) she belongs to YOU and you don't want any other men looking at her and b) you don't TRUST her.

Women are going to be hit on in ANY job they take, short skirt or not. I've been sexually harassed in a number of workplaces and innocently chatted up in others and none of those jobs involved me wearing a short skirt or serving drinks. It's just what happens to women in a public place, period. She has just as much chance of getting hit on while she does her grocery shopping.

She's a big girl. If a man hits on her, she'll deal with it. A man asking her out is completely harmless - it's how she responds to the offer that matters. And that's what she's upset about. That you obviously don't trust her enough to make the right decision when the time comes.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but the only thing that's really at risk of harm if she takes this job, is your ego. I'm sure the thought of her being ogled by other men every night will drive you crazy and play on your insecurities. It happens to ALL of us. But the fact is, if she loves you, you have nothing to fear. And if it turns out she *is* the type to sleep around, then it's better you know now than later when you're talking about marriage and babies.

And don't forget - other men may be drooling all over her, but YOU are the one she's sleeping with. Being with someone hot enough to attract that sort of attention should be BOOSTING your ego, not denting it. :)

Smut Villain

03-18-05, 04:50

Mikster,

RN has just given you some very sage advice. If your girl is a real "looker", then she's been getting hit on constantly anyway. She'll be okay.
And regarding the second part of your question: having lived in Mexico for 5 years really spoiled me rotten. I guess it was because I DID"NT have to play the "jerk" game while I was there. It was the only case I could ever recall (in my experience) where "just being yourself" actually did work for me. Maybe that's why I always felt more comfortable south of border than in my own country; playing the jerk role doesn't feel so natural when it doesn't match your real personality.

Lima Busy

03-18-05, 17:58

I just wanted to let you know that I think your job concerns are overblown. I have been living in Lima for the past year and am a regular at all the major casinos here.

First off I am 51 and recently married a 23 y/o peruana. Before everyone spams me, I am aware there is only one good reason to get married in Peru and my wife is definetly it!

There are only a couple of casinos in town that would attract foriegn men with money. Marriott/Miraflores/Hacienda. It is more likely your girl is working at a tragemoneda which is just a penny slot place filled with old women.

My friends(all mongers) and I go to the casinos 2-3 times a week and I have never seen one try to pick up a casino chic. I admit they are great to look at but as you well know it is way too easy to just pick them up on the street.

In fact I would be more concerned if she were working as a liquor model in her miniskirt or seethru jumpsuit at santa Isabel on a friday afternoon. ohoh just gave away a little secret.

Anyway before I moved down here I made sure my wife had no desire to live in the states and was happy with her life down here. I truly believe that is the key.

Buena Suerte,

LimaBusy

Daddy Rulz

03-18-05, 21:13

I'm involved with a wonderful Portena and as Smut Villian says you can indeed be yourself. However their are crucial differences between Latina's and American Women. They really, really no shit about it want you to be a strong alpha male. They will look to you for leadership and to take care of them. Regarding major desicions they enjoy having a say but are most comfortable if you make the desicion. Most of the men there treat them as children and think they have nothing to contribute, if you show them more respect and love they will pay it back 10 fold. However and I have found this to be important, they will test you to guage the size of you heuvos. Do not be afraid to lay down the law, never be afraid to say "No this won't work", forcefully if nessicary. If they discover that your afraid or intimidated by them forget it, it's over. I'm not advocating any kind of violance, when I say forcefully I'm talking about excersizing your power by will not violantly.

The responsibilty I think comes in making desicions not based on what's best for you but what's best for both of you. Treat them well, bring them gifts, tell them how much you love her if you do, in general the idea of "giving themselves compleatly" has more value there. Personally knowing the woman I refer to has taught me more about being a "man" than anything else I've ever experianced.

This information while not true in 100% of the cases I've experianced has proved to be so in over 90%. It's not everybody's cup of tea but I sure like it.

Oh yes and my girl has this delightful way of using sex to manipulate me, it's not a power struggle as we are used to here but rather a ratcheting up of enthusiasm when I've made her really happy.

I'm in agreement with RN as far as the job. It doesn't matter where she works, if she's attractive she's going to be hit on. Personally I get a kick out of it when other men desire the woman I'm with because she's shagging me and not them.

Enjoy

Hedonist

03-25-05, 07:42

Guys,

Here is a fairly young monger... I'm 29 y.o. I traveled to Thailand, Russia, and Cyprus to practice the hobby. Currently I'm not practicing the hobby because I am involved with a wonderful woman. I am seriously torn inside. On the one hand, I like the company of this woman and feel that I can have a future with her. On the other hand, I know, if I marry her I'll miss activities like picking up gorgeous women from Moscow nightclubs or fucking Thai go-go girls. When I do a reality check, I have only four weeks of time for the hobby, the rest of the year I live my ordinary life with friends, family etc. It doesn't seem very reasonable to sacrify an entire life for a few moments of wild fun. But, then marriage... is it any good? People who've seen more of life, I appreciated your input. How was your marriage experience like? Would you prefer a stable OK marriage to the hobby? Why- why not? People who are older than 35, single and committed to the hobby- how do you feel inside? Is the hobby sufficient for your satisfaction and happiness or are you craving for a deeper connection with a special someone? And those of who are cheating on your wives- how do you guys feel? Lots of questions... I appreciated if you would offer your two cents...

Domino

03-25-05, 08:32

If I were you, I would go for the lady. Mongering is a dead end and the mongering destinations will always be awash with poor, unfortunate women in search of a pay check. Of course, a commitment takes, well, commitment. Next time you go to Bangkok or somewhere, check out the old dudes sitting around the lobby of the Nana Hotel. Even the hookers joke about them. If you want them to be joking about you in the years ahead, stay the course. All it takes is a little bit of money and some free time to burn. You can boast to the world about your lady friend but you cannot do the same about some cheap pick up you found in Nana parking lot.

Joe Zop

03-25-05, 16:53

Hedonist, I agree with Domino. The upside of getting into a relationship that really works is much higher than the upside of mongering. Yes, as is repeatedly testified here, it doesn't always work out, but for a good deal of people it does. I'd take a good marriage over mongering any day. In your judgement the woman you're with is wonderful, and if that's truly the case then tossing that away doesn't make sense.

I think you state the equation correctly -- and in a decision between how much you're going to get laid on vacation and how you're going to live in your normal life, I say make the normal life work.

Daddy Rulz

03-25-05, 18:32

Headonist you don't say where this lady is from. If she is American and hasn't been raised in a cave by a pack of wolves than I say run like the wind my friend, run as you have never run before. I've been married twice to local talent and I can honestly say I will never again so much as date an American woman.

I don't disagree with totaly with Joe and Domino. There is something pathetic about 70 year old men propped up on V or C nailing 20 year old women. However; the ones I've talked to could give a fuck less what anybody thinks of their mongering, they thank god for the advanced pharmacuticle industry and grab another chica.

Personally, after a half a million visits to BsAs I found a really sweet woman not in the life. I've never in my life been treated by a woman as I am by her. If you found a nice Dyve, or Chica or whatever they call them in the orient I would suggest looking at the relationship. But with an American, no way. I really think it comes down to an issue of socialization. In most parts of the world the son's in a family are treated as Prince's and the daughters are expected to serve the family. Here they get treated as Daddy's little girl and they grow up with an expectation of entitlement, their needs and desires are what is important to them.

On this forum and in countless other places the experiance is the same. Sweet, sweet, sweet until they pop a few kids, their girlfriends start telling them what a looser you are for not being C level at some fortune 500 company, then file for divorce and turn you into a paycheck.

So there you have it, my dos centavos.

Daddy

Slumlord

03-25-05, 22:12

Next time you go to Bangkok or somewhere, check out the old dudes sitting around the lobby of the Nana Hotel. Even the hookers joke about them. If you want them to be joking about you in the years ahead, stay the course. And I'm still able to go to Bangkok and bang 20 year-old girls, then I did something right.

Laughing at me? Any 70 year-old who still gets joy out of sex has my respect. They have the last laugh.

SL

Sinanju Master

03-26-05, 03:04

Marriage (even a happy one) doesn't guarantee a happy life. Remember, once you cross that threshold of matrimony, certain things will be unavailable to you. For instance, depending upon your own composure and the self-esteem and confidence of your spouse, that equation will determine if you can even LOOK at another woman, much less have a conversation with one. As much as I hate to admit it, overwhelmingly, it is the WOMAN who controls the emotional and sexual direction of the relationship. If she commits marital fraud by being Ms. Wonderful in the beginning and then turns into Mrs. Hyde and changes the geography of the playing field after the wedding, you can kiss a sane home life goodbye. To be fair by exposing the underbelly of BOTH sexes, when the afterglow of the wedding has faded, BOTH spouses get too comfortable (lazy) and that familiarity eventually breeds contempt. The spouses are no longer forced to present their best side to the other, because the incentive to impress no longer exists. “I have him/her now and I don’t have to work as hard to keep him/her happy” is the law of the land. That is a HUGE contributor to each spouse having a jaded view of the other. Examples of HIS thoughts: “Man, she’s letting herself get fat”, “She doesn’t dress up anymore”, “She doesn’t want sex as much anymore”. Examples of HER thoughts: “He’s turning into a slob”, “That spare tire is growing every time I look at it”, “He used to rock my world in bed, now he just wants to make his deposit and roll over and sleep”. BOTH eventually look outside the marriage to regain what they had BEFORE they got married.

Hedonist, I can only speak from my own frame of reference. Therefore, IF I ever got married, it would be to a woman who has many intangible traits that would be admirable by ANYONE’S standard. If I ever DID land such a woman, you can bet your ass that I would CONTINUE to do the things I did to attract her BEFORE we got married LONG AFTER the wedding day. Like anyone, I’ve done a lot of stupid shit in my life, but having the knowledge I do NOW, engaging in behavior that would turn such a spouse OFF would NOT be one of them.

On the other hand, if a 70 year old dude is STILL getting his freak on, I can't hate on that! More power to ya Gramps!

Smut Villain

03-26-05, 03:18

hedonist,

each of these guys make a good point in his own way, but the only correct answer can come from only one place - you.

like many here, i monger because i happen to like sex and don't feel like jumping through a bunch of hoops to get it, i don't do [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), and i don't feel like having pussy being used as a weapon against me. but let's face it: life is more than getting some strange ass on a saturday night in tijuana (or bangkok, or...). you can always get some p4p nookie, but it's damned rare that you get to share it with someone who might actually be worth it. but make damned sure she's worth the commitment; if you chose wisely then she may make you forget about mongering :) if not, then you'll end up right back here (trust me on this one!).

bottom line: it's better to have tried, and failed, than to spend the rest of your life wondering "what if...?". but it still helps to know what you're getting into before diving right in.

Rubber Nursey

03-26-05, 03:48

"Bottom line: it's better to have tried, and failed, than to spend the rest of your life wondering "what if...?"."

Can I get you to pop down here and have a chat to the man that *I'm* in love with???? :)

Domino

03-26-05, 05:27

The Nana Hotel Lobby guys are ok and seem happy enough with life in general and, no doubt, the price of Viagra in particular. I am sure they get their rocks off on occasion and we can all nod and wink at that. But it is not a life in the same way a relationship is. Sure, they sit around talking of their back aches, their 401 ks and the cute ladies they joked with in the bar the previous night. They are not drunken European soccer hooligans and they all seem to be well set financially: lots of talk of their top of the range cars back home. But they don't really have a home anymore coz they are now Nana lobby lizards, forming tangential relationships with ladies, bell boys and other mongers who treat them tangentially. A relationship, on the other hand, has to be more than a good roll in the hay which, when phrased like that, seems like something juveniles do.

I hope this advice is useful. See me in Nana lobby for more;)

Chocha Monger

03-26-05, 07:31

Hedonist,

At a very tender age I tried marriage for six faithful years. Thankfully, a lack of good sex was never an issue. It was the other things that finally made me get out. I was a very frugal person and most of my paycheck went to maintaining my wife and kid. If my wife wanted something she always got it from me. For the most part I lived to support my family and didn't spend much on myself, however one payday I bought something for less than $30 to entertain myself at home since I was no longer allowed to go anywhere unaccompanied. Well, that turned out to be a mistake because she bitched at me for a week about being selfish. Visiting my parents without her was out of the question even though she hated them, so I was expected to not visit them period. She read all my letters from friends and family, privacy was a thing of the past. I couldn't even run to the grocery store or pharmacy without her wanting to come along. Her friends added to the drama with stories about how their men did them wrong. I was prohibited from sending gifts to my parents at Christmas because "they didn't need it" but she sent to hers.

Eventually, I re-grew my balls and asked for a divorce. She flew into a rage and vowed to make me pay for "ruining" her life, and pay I did. Now tens of thousands of dollars later I'm finally free again. You don't know what freedom is until you've lost it and then regained it. I'm not saying that mongering is the best way to spend the rest of your life and neither am I saying that marriage is always bad. However, I will say this. Never marry an American woman, and never marry any woman and bring her into the USA or any Western country where the divorce laws are biased against men. You will regret it. Of course, you can choose to ignore my advice and find out all of this yourself much like I did when wiser folks warned me.

There is something in North American society that causes women to believe that men exist solely to provide for their needs. I'm not interested in finding out exactly what that is, but at least I can help stop someone else from unwittingly becoming a slave or a lap dog. It will always be sweet and nice before you sign that contract, then it will change. The change might be overnight or it might be gradual but it's guaranteed to be more than you bargained for.

If you want to stop mongering and enjoy your relationship with your girlfriend then by all means do so, but do not marry. Eventually, when you do not give her the diamond ring, the house in the suburbs, the SUV and a few kids she will move on and look for another sucker. Meanwhile, save and invest your money so that you can move abroad to a country where women still care about men and don't use kids as the ultimate weapon. You have more time than you realize. At 40-45 yrs of age you can settle down somewhere and have a family if that's what you want. For now enjoy your girlfriend, mongering or both because you'll only be young once.

Belgrath

03-26-05, 17:45

Ouch, not sure if they had grown kids or anything.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/25/divorce.settlement.ap/index.html

Not sure the court system would award a cheating husband that much if she was the wealthier partner.

Sinanju Master

03-26-05, 21:10

Choca Monger, it's great to have the voice of experience to chime in every now and then with words of wisdom. I'm glad for you that only SIX years were spent in incarceration.

A friend of mine who got married on November 15 2003 (he jokingly refers to it as 11/15, much in the same manner the general public SERIOUSLY refers to 9/11) has all but been totally written off by our social circle. After the honeymoon was well behind them, I would drop by his house for about an hour on Sunday afternoons (when I was sure that they would be winding down the day's activities) to say hello and chat. I then felt that the wife resented my company and I eventually stopped seeing him. In fact, I haven't even CALLLED him on his work cell for months. The last time he got to go out with us (we don't go out to strip bars or anything, just a night of video games and beer) the warden (whoops! I meant WIFE) said: "This counts as your time with the guys". He didn't even get to spend TWO HOURS with us. I saw the beaten down, broken look on his face and I thought of prisoners on Death Row. Poor bastard... On TOP of all this, this is his second marriage! His first wife was a MAJOR LEAGUE B**** and is at this very moment, trying to squeeze MORE $$ out of him for child support. His current wife has issues that I think may fester to the point where they will cause her to walk. I won't go into details, but it was just an illustration of my point.

Joe Zop

03-26-05, 21:54

I've been married well over 20 years and not once have I ever had to ask "permission" to spend money on myself or spend time with my friends. Yes, if it's a notably large purchase we'll talk about it, but that's the nature of any two people dealing with a budget, and even then it's a question of when and not whether. Now, I'm not racking up a garage full of extra sports cars just because I like them in lieu of paying the gas bill, but I sure as hell don't have to worry about whether I want some $50 trinket at any point. And I most definitely don't ever have to worry about having friends over, going over to hang out with them, heading off to say, spend all night playing poker or hitting the bars or whatever. Do I consider what's going on at home? Do I consider whether I'm spending more time with my friends than with my wife and make sure she's getting enough attention and affection? Sure I do -- that's how actual adults in relationships act -- but I make the decision. And my wife has the same options. I can certainly manage on my own if she wants to go out with her friends once in a while.

Anyone, American man or otherwise, who puts up with the previously mentioned types of obnoxious controlling conduct fully deserves to have his balls kept locked in a drawer and have his wife keep the key. And the shrew wife is not simply a US phenomenom by any means -- I know guys elsewhere in the same boat, and most of the examples of the battle-ax woman type that are found in literature aren't from American writers...

Those kind of "rules" often come into effect because the guy isn't doing enough to make things work at home in the first place. Or because he's made so big a point of marrying some gorgeous hot piece of ass that he doesn't bother to figure out whether or not she's a total manipulating b*tch the rest of the time.

If you let a dog think it's ok to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) on you, it will. And you deserve it.

Travis Bickle 2

03-26-05, 23:07

Some of you on this thread always post the worst that can happen. Myself, like Joe, have been married (and to an American woman, twice) and what Chocha Monger describes doesn't come close to my reality. I, as well, never needed permission to spend money on myself, nor did I need permission to visit my family and/or friends. I would have laughed at the mere suggestion and then did it anyway. And reading my personal mail? No way. It sounds like he got stuck with an insecure controlling *****. A lot of women get stuck with guys like that too.

Now, I've been divorced twice, as well as have most of my friends and there's not a single one of us paying alimony. Most of us got married to college educated women and were in two income households. Sure you could marry some gold-digging, lazy, and unemployable clout, but most of us didn't. Things didn't work out for a variety of reasons. Most of the American men and women I know got married because they love each other, not for the financial gain. Of course most of us are not rich; myself a journeyman welder making $28.72 an hour currently. Not bad money, but nevertheless the gold-diggers don't line up at my door.

So, my advice to hedonist is this: Get Married. Yes, even if she's an American woman. I'm glad for both my marriages and still wouldn't go anything differently. I'd still marry both of them. The fun of traveling thousands of miles to pay for sex pales in comparison to waking up each morning with a woman you truly love and who loves you as well.

Now if you ask these guys if they'd get married if they knew the gal wouldn't sue for alimony, the sex would continue to be good, they could still have their personal lives, etc, etc., most would be singing a different tune. It's hard for a lot of guys (women too) to want to get hurt all over again. So, there's a tendency not to risk it.

The one out of two marriages ends in divorce statistic is a bit askew. If that's the case (and they never mention this), then one out of two marriages survive until one partner dies. Pretty good odds there. And then you figure in the Johnny Carsons and Elizabeth Taylors who they also figure into the stats and that artificially affects the odds. I think if you did a study of how many marriages survive where the partners get married for the right reasons, are committed to making the marriage work, and remain faithful, I think you'd probably be up to 2 out of 3 marriages last.

So, give the relationship a chance. And if you're really worried get a prenup.

Civ2000

Sinanju Master

03-27-05, 03:48

Civ is right. I DO present the worst case scenario ONLY to shed some light on what COULD happen if a guy doesn't keep his wits about him or do his research. An ounce of prevention is worth 18 years of cure!

If Hedonist's girl is a true gem worthy of walking down the aisle and later walking together upon the path of Life, then by all means he should marry her with alacrity! Hell, I'd even volunteer to throw rice as they walk out of the church!

Global Playboy

03-27-05, 04:37

I spent a couple of weeks in Europe and came back to my sobering everyday reality. I got on a train to work and this complete fatass chick sat right next to me and squeezed me in. It was kind of a punch in the face bringing me back to reality that American women simply don't cut it anymore. After spending some time in Europe seeing slender statuesque beauties that would actually give me the time of day, it was very sobering that I only get two weeks a year to escape my hellish experiences with American women. Traveling around the world in search of women is the greatest pleasure in the world. I have traveled to nearly 24 different countries in every region of the world, what amazes me is that everywhere I have gone, I have seen textbook examples of class, beauty, and womanliness, that doesn't seem to present itself in the US, UK, and Canada. I have ruled out bitchiness as being an Anglosaxon trait because Australian and Kiwi women are very ladylike compared to their North American and British counterparts. It really sucks with the current geopolitical situation that travel abroad is getting tougher and tougher. Still with some of the women I have met while abroad I don't mind sticking my neck out for them. I get only a measly two weeks a year, a lady I met in Australia says she gets 8 weeks a year, I think I am migrating to Ozzie.

Chocha Monger

03-27-05, 04:56

Have you ever noticed that the eagle on our nation's emblem holds an olive branch in one set of talons and arrows in the other? We wish for the best case senario, world peace. On the other hand we are prepared for the worst case senario which is having to wage war. In fact, we're so well prepared that we're better than anyone else at waging war.

Now, I'm aware that my case was pretty close to or at as bad as it gets. This will not be the case for everyone. People will have different experiences and that is why we come to this forum to exchange the lessons learned from them. Every fisherman will not catch a sardine, some will catch a shark and have to cut it loose. Anyway, that is just probability at work and not necessarily due to any action on the part of the hapless fisherman who gets ripped apart by the shark.

Another thing I would like to mention is that these women who sound as though they've come right out of a Grimms Brother's fairytale work pretty hard to conceal their evil side until they get the one ring. After my disaster I learned to flush out even the most skillful actresses but sometimes it can take a while depending on their talent. I'm sure that bad women are not limited to the USA I have met a few from abroad also, hence my advice to Hedonist to stack the odds in his favor as much as possible.

Maybe Lady Luck will smile on Hedonist and he will never know the pain of being neutered by his woman. In the end he will read all these posts and make his own decision. If he walks down the aisle I'll be right there with Sinanju Master throwing rice, and if she lops off his balls down the road I'll be there to comfort him too.

Hedonist

03-28-05, 01:31

Guys,

Thanks a lot for your input. They were all very helpful. I have a lean towards marrying her. Right now it feels OK to give up mongering. I just don't know the degree of my addiction to mongering. A good friend mine got married three years ago. He and her wife sweared to remain faithful no matter what. They were really in love. He was faithful until one day he came accross a pair of big breasts freely bouncing under a sweater without limitations bra... If fucked her, he would break his promise. If he didn't fuck her, he would cheat himself because he wanted to fuck her as hell. Well, eventually he fucked her and didn't tell his wife... He is still married and loves his wife, but he also fucks other women at certain intervals. This is of course hypocrasy, but I really can't blame him. Pretty much all my friends are doing the same. It seems to me that this is the only way men can satisfy their natural sexual instincts and at the same time conform to the requirements of our societies- have a warm home with a loving wife and fuck a ***** once in a while to get rid of any tension caused by the monotony of commitment... The reason of my hesitation is that this is not something that I want to have in my own life...

Anyways... I thank you all for taking time to share your thoughts with me.

Long Stroker

03-28-05, 07:23

Court dismisses man's theft claim against lover who kept semen

CHICAGO - An appeals court said a man can press a claim for emotional distress after learning a former lover had used his sperm to have a baby. But he can’t claim theft, the ruling said, because the sperm were hers to keep.

The ruling Wednesday by the Illinois Appellate Court sends Dr. Richard O. Phillips’ distress case back to trial court.

Phillips accuses Dr. Sharon Irons of a “calculated, profound personal betrayal” after their affair six years ago, saying she secretly kept semen after they had oral sex, then used it to get pregnant.

He said he didn’t find out about the child for nearly two years, when Irons filed a paternity lawsuit. DNA tests confirmed Phillips was the father, the court papers state.

Phillips was ordered to pay about $800 a month in child support, said Irons’ attorney, Enrico Mirabelli.

'Trapped in a nightmare'

Phillips sued Irons, claiming he has had trouble sleeping and eating and has been haunted by “feelings of being trapped in a nightmare,” court papers state.

Irons responded that her alleged actions weren’t “truly extreme and outrageous” and that Phillips’ pain wasn’t bad enough to merit a lawsuit. The circuit court agreed and dismissed Phillips’ lawsuit in 2003.

But the higher court ruled that, if Phillips’ story is true, Irons “deceitfully engaged in sexual acts, which no reasonable person would expect could result in pregnancy, to use plaintiff’s sperm in an unorthodox, unanticipated manner yielding extreme consequences.”

The judges backed the lower court decision to dismiss the fraud and theft claims, agreeing with Irons that she didn’t steal the sperm.

“She asserts that when plaintiff 'delivered' his sperm, it was a gift — an absolute and irrevocable transfer of title to property from a donor to a donee,” the decision said. “There was no agreement that the original deposit would be returned upon request.”

Phillips is representing himself in the case. He could not be reached for comment Thursday.

“There’s a 5-year-old child here,” Mirabelli said. “Imagine how a child feels when your father says he feels emotionally damaged by your birth.”

© 2005 The Associated Press

Chocha Monger

03-28-05, 20:24

i had read that article posted by long stroker a while ago and debated it with a few of my buddies. the whole not swallowing the semen thing is indeed extreme but the artificial insemination part is not new. while i was in college i heard of cases where guys had sex with girls and used a condom but then left it in girl's waste paper basket or somewhere else within her reach, the guys would think that it was all over after cumming and going in a hurry. however, once in a while a scheming girl would apparently use the still viable sperm in the condom to inseminate herself. given the age group involved, i wouldn't imagine that anything more complex than a finger dipped in the sperm and then inserted in the vagina would be necessary to accomplish the goal.

girls can get very serious about trapping mr. right by any means necessary once they hit that 25 to 30 yrs old stretch and the looks start fading and the ass widening. therefore, be sure that you use spermicidally lubricated condoms to render your gift useless and if you blow your tor**** in her oral cavity then confirm ingestion. this all sounds like a hassle but it might save you $800 per month in child support payments and the mental anguish. ;-)

young mongers beware! i stand ready to be chided for posting the negative.

Moore

03-29-05, 02:21

Its interesting reading the last two posts. I had a very similar thing happen. And to be fair to this board and its subject, it was not with an American woman. All I can say is be careful if you are with a female that might want to latch on to you. Most importantly when she has reached/passed the early 30s mark and has (I suppose) become deperate. It is a lot easier than I thought for them to become impregnated.

Mikster

03-30-05, 00:24

Fellas, also beware the chicks who will take a needle pin and insert it into the center of an unopened condom while your away, in the bathroom, whatever. It happens more than we may know. I have heard numerous bitches call in to talk radio shows and confess that they do it to get pregnant.

There is an evil, but hightly justified, way to get back at a girl who you know is going into the toilet trash can to get some of your jiz out of the used condom. I dont remember the name of the stuff you buy, but its 1000 times hotter than hot sauce and when she inserts it into her vagina lets just say that she will think a million times about ever doing it again. After she's out of the hospital that is. hehehe Protect your love gunk like a treasure chest, that's what it is.

My opinion on the other topic, is never marry an american woman. Just not worth any risk to me no matter how she looks or acts. Not anymore. Take you chances with foreign women, preferably latinas or asians in my opinion.

Milkster

Sinanju Master

03-30-05, 03:48

Mikster, that stunt reminds me of the prank that the geeks pulled on the jocks in "Revenge of the Nerds". Does anyone remember that? The stunt where they washed the jockstraps of the athletes in BEN GAY and when the athletes donned their jockstraps, they were writhing in ball-burning agony! Hehehehe! MAN, who comes UP with this stuff??

Global Playboy

03-30-05, 18:47

I might admit that there are few American women that are actually okay, but they are in a very small minority. I think American women as a whole are very narrow minded and shallow. Its not uncommon for an American man to have a relationship with a foreign women but you will never see this situation vice versa. A foreign man who comes to the US will probably be asked to get lost by most American females. To most American women an immigrant is someone who is poor and less of a man. Its all about money with American females. To American men an immigrant woman can be seen as exotic, different, and exciting, an escape from the ordinary. It just proves that men are more open minded and tolerant than women.

Cyberdas

03-31-05, 23:15

Amen brother, you nailed it right on the head. I know this firsthand being an immigrant myself.

CBGBConnisur

04-01-05, 02:11

I have met a lot of idiots in other countries who think that the typical American woman looks like Angelina Jolie or Jennifer Aniston. I remember this one idiot, a total loser and a bum with no job, he was Bulgarian and had a knockout good looking girlfriend who went to work while he sat on his ass. He kept talking about Jennifer A in front of his girlfriend, and I said to myself,"You *******, you got a fine woman next to you who takes your shit, even though you're a bum without a job, what makes you think you're gonna get Jennifer A???!!". There are millions of these idiots around the world who believe everything they see on TV and movies. They don't know good they have it, the same applies for Australia, most Australian dudes are total idiots.

Domino

04-01-05, 02:57

If American women are so awful, what should we make of American men? Can they be so totally different? I think lots of posters here have just got burned by a handfull of American women and they are bitter. Fact is, most American women are in stable relationships, often with jerks, and you canot deny that. What about your American mothers, sisters, cousins? Are they all jerks too? Maybe America's social dynamics are different from those of dirt poor countries but I would like to hear someone praise American women for achange, if only to break the monotony of this thread.

Travis Bickle 2

04-01-05, 05:14

I, for one, don't bash American women. I love American women. Although I often agree that some are just out to take you for all you have, that doesn't remotely describe most of the women I know. I have quite a few women friends and none of them are the gold-digging, conniving types you read about here. And like I've said before, they are simply mirror images of American men.

This isn't meant to insult anyone here, but when I was twenty-years-old I did not pick up hookers. Why? Because I didn't need to. I could get all the young fresh meat I wanted. So, now that I'm approaching fifty, and still like to bang twenty-year-old girls, it does get frustrating that I can't just take them home like I used to. I could start bashing American women because one half my age won't go out with me, and say how wonderful some Chilean woman is because she will, but it doesn't change the fact.

I think if us guys were to chase the chubby fifty year old who goes to work everyday and is lonely like us, we wouldn't be bashing American women. We would find them great companions who weren't looking to break the bank. The problem with me is I just don't find them attractive (even though I'm a chubby, greying, fifty-something). I still chase the young girls and in the one in fifty times she actually wants to go out with me, quess what? She's after my money. Shock!

Bottom-line: I love American women. If I want some eighteen-year-old girl to gush over me like I'm God's gift to women: I'll hop a plane and visit Cambodia.

Civ2000

Moore

04-01-05, 05:19

OK I´ll come out of the closet. Although my mother and sister are decent and not bad for being American women, my dad and brother in law deserve and would have done 1000% better overseas (where I live). One of my female cousins is a dike (although she is great an I love her as a cousin), the other three are also great but basically nasty skanks. American women suck in every way. Sure, before leaving the US I had been with A FEW nice ones, but you can go years there between those streaks of luck. In many places in Europe and S America you are simply inundated by beautiful, sexy, educated, sweet, friendly babes 24/7. I just nailed one that I met in my internet cafe last week. It wasnt even intentional. That never happened to me in the USA.

BTW, last night I was in a pool hall and there was an American girl playing 2 tables away. She stuck out like a sore thumb due to her LOUD OBNOXIUOS VOICE, repulsive masculine appearance, attitute, clothes, gestures, gait, etc...She also was wearing those stupid thick nerd bumblebee glasses that about 80% of American women that come down here seem to wear. What is the deal with that, do they all wear those now in the USA. One thing that amazes me is that you would think that something would wear off on these US biatches when they spend time in Europe/SA all day with real women running around. But they look/act even worse! Maybe just a defense mechanism or just oblivion.

M

Domino

04-01-05, 07:52

Young women are made pretty so young guys will bang them so the species will carry on into the void. Nature has programmed it so that most human couples grow old together, much like swans who are higher up the ladder of being than we are. There are exceptions to this general rule. Some guys, Civ2000 and Domino being two, like to bang younger women. Nature does not mind as long as most people do not follow suit.

American women know if they give away their pussy too early, they will pay big time for it. They are caught in a rapidly changing society and must protect themselves. Lots of men feel threatened by them but not by some 2 bit disposable Third World skank

When I hung around Mexico with the super rich, I used to often share a car with this young Mexican dude who used to flit up to San Diego where he would bang rich white chicks. He thought it amazing that they never even asked him his name. I didn't as I was more interesed in banging his maid.

I find white women are still attracted to me for the same reasons they have always been attracted to me. Like Frank Sinatra, as I get older, I simply modulate the notes I sing and I leave the high notes to the young guys who are all dick and no brains.

You must also remember women, much more than men, are social creatures. They like to hang around together, chat, shop, ***** etc. Look at Sex and the City type cluck cluck all together stuff. Men are more the loner type. What does this mean? It means if you are banging a younger chick, all her friends are telling her you are an old creep and thye should bail out/whack you/go on Jerry Springer/fuck Domino instead. This even happens to

John T Domino

MeatMan

04-01-05, 14:53

I'm just a regular average guy. I certainly don't look like Denzel Washington and I don't have a million dollars in the bank(screw banks by the way) but I have a great personality. So naturally, no American women will acknowledge me.

I travel once in a while, I have been with hot women, hotter than I could have imagined being involved with. Their reasoning, it's simple. They liked me because I'm trustworthy, respectful and have a great sense of humor. American women don't value those things. Unless it comes in an 80,000 dollar car. Then they have all the interest in the world.

Mikster

04-01-05, 17:57

More power to you and its your opinion and right to voice it. I couldnt disagree with you more. Sure, there are some good ones, but who cares? We are talking in vast generalities here and in general American women are nothing like their cousins from many, many other countries. Any guy who thinks the average American women is equal to, or superior, to the other ladies of the world is a possible pussy, and idiot, or has simply given up and is living with the fact that he doesnt want, or cant get for whatever reason, anything better. More power to you again. Its your life. You can have all the American bitches and the rest of us will go and take the real women who know the real meaning of the word relationship.

American men have been pussified beyond belief, beaten down by a society that doesnt want them to behave like men, and convinces them that "sex in the city sluts" are about the best there is out there for them. You can have them. Be my guest.

As for me and most of my brethren here, we know the real truth of the American society, women in general here, and the complete foolishness to believe that these creatures calling themselves women are remotely tied to any of their past ancestors in this country.

I, for one, am amazed at the men of seattle. They carry their male "purses" around, take orders from their girlfriends, lose their friends on orders from the wives and girlfriends and have their balls in her purse. If you ever want to see the absolute epitome of what has happened to the american male one need only walk around Seattle and see the pussified idiots calling themselves men.

I dont know how to explain it better, you have to see if for yourself to believe it. The only place left in this country where men still are men is the deep south, and that is quickly evaporating as even they are feeling the heat of being a "sensitive, sweet guy." Fuck that shit. You can have it.

You may think these dikes in womens clothing are into you, but you are a fool. They are only into themselves. They fool you with their hot young looks and then go for the kill. Any man is a fool to get married to an American snobby *****. They are all bitches in my book, not worthy of my cock or my time.

No, I have not been burned. I have personally dumped all American sluts that I have dated because I am a realist and learned their game early on. I am the "asshole" that American women love, but could care less about. I pride myself on that. I used to be a nice guy with women and I ended up jacking off to Swank Magazine every night. When I turned ugly, nasty, and bad I got balled whenever I wanted. Two plus two is four baby. I can add. I know what works here and I dont like it. I am sick of it. I can be myself in other countries and not put on the facade of being an asshole and I love it.

My two cents. Take it or leave. Could care less. Thats my attitude in country, only way to get laid by hot ass. In peru, colombia, japan, I can be Mr. Nice and get all the pussy I can handle and actually have feelings. What an idea!!!!

Later boys.

Milkster the enlightened

Jay Dub

04-01-05, 19:02

Hey Mikster,

I must say that you have truly summed it up. You are very real and you actualy hit the nail on the head multiple times.

I wish more guys had the balls to see it all for what it is. In fact, what you've said is lilke gospel, and I will review your words twice a day in the morning and in the night before I go to sleep.

Peace

Cyberdas

04-02-05, 01:57

When referring to American Women, I think this term also applies to those who have become "Americanized" because in essence, they're the same as those who are "natives". I say this seeing how all women (or approx. 98%) in the U.S. share the same virtues and values regardless of race, culture and creed. In this aspect there are no barriers or differences (I wish the same was true in the workplace). It's really amazing and alarming. The expectations from a Latina, Asian or European in the U.S. are the same as those of any American woman. Back in their homelands, things are different; for the most part they're not like that, but once they become "Americanized" - it all goes to waste. One rather alarming factor I noticed was how much of this "Americanization" has come into play in other countries as well. I'm not saying that it is equivalent (thank God for that) but I have noticed it more than before when I've visited South America and Mexico. Especially the big border towns of Mexico on the north where they are so close to the U.S. and by proximity would seem to have gotten "infected". This is something I would like to hear more about in this site because even though it is not as bad, similar attitudes do also exist elsewhere. Just my two cents worth!!!

Moore

04-02-05, 04:48

Civ 2000,

When I was 20 yo living in the USA I wasnt banging hookers either, you know why? Because I had no money. If you were getting fresh meat 24/7 in college in the USA, you werent the only one but I would say pertain to a segment of less than 10% of guys. Most of whom had the only kind of power you could have at that age (non-monetary) like being on the all-american football team. College is only 10 years ago for me. What are you talking about.

Domino

04-02-05, 08:44

Is rhyming slang for a Yank. If you think 1st world babes are waiting for American men to fuck them, jump in a time capsule. This is 2005, not 1945. England has been off rationing for over 50 years, Germany surrendered 60 years ago, the Korean war is also over (an armistice was declared oh around 1954 or so) and all that influences attitutes. Today, you will only be seen as a check waving liberator by the wretched of the earth, by those who are dirt poor. In 1st world Japan, for example, only a very small minority of women are interested in the white trash of Asia; they are the small minority who want out of Japan's social straight jacket. Girls just wanna have fun and if you are a fun living, free psending wooden plank, your dick will get a yank.

If anyone thinks some upper class Latina will fuck them or even look at them with anything but contempt, they know nothing about society south of the Rio Grande, imho. So, by all means ***** all you like about American women. But just remember: another American, or two, is banging each and every one of them. If you are not and if they are burning you, to paraphrase the great monger, JFK, ask not what their **** can do for you but what you can do for their ****. Develop some more strings to your bow, take a few leaves out of my book and you too will be a happy, AW loving monger.

Peace and pussy to all.
"Lonely women make good lovers".

Hardbarg

04-02-05, 11:41

Young women are made pretty so young guys will bang them so the species will carry on into the void. Nature has programmed it so that most human couples grow old together, much like swans who are higher up the ladder of being than we are.

You've posted a bunch of debateable things here. I'll just comment on this one. Growing old together is a fairly recent phenomenon - maybe 200 years at the most. Prior to that it was lucky if either partner lived past 40. That leaves about 199,000 years of "nature's programming" exactly the opposite of your assertion. Whatever point you're trying to make, please keep your pseudo-biological facts accurate.

Domino

04-02-05, 12:34

Global life expectancy is, according to the CIA Factbook, Weighted Average 67.47 years http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_tot_pop&int=-1

This, of course, does not break down for sex. In Mozambique, it is 31.3, something similar to what it may have been in Europe and White America some 200 years ago. One would also have to stabilize the variance over time and take out extraneous variables such as wars, famines and diseases past and present. Then, whilst noting that marriage itself and the nuclear family are both relatively recent byproducts of economic advance, one could still comfortably assert that most humans, like swans, are pre programmed to form one relationship with a member of the opposite sex and grow old with that person, whilst nothing that the definition of age, like Bill Clinton's definition of sex is rather mercurial and changes with the ages (which is why we would have to stablize the variance). Priests, mongers and others are exceptions to this general rule of society.
The mongers here, though they are an eclectic bunch, are not representative of society at large. For example, the sexual revolution of the 1970s was not as widespread as we were held to believe. Many did not partake in it.

Now that that is clear: let us hear it for American women and try to go at least a day without bitching the same hoary bs about them.

Bottom line: Some opinions here need to be challenged so that those who have been burned by American or other women may pick themselves up and get on with life. If you want to go to a third world country and buy love, by all means do. But don't expect Oprah Winfrey to hold you up as a role model.

Hardbarg

04-02-05, 14:26

whilst nothing that the definition of age, like Bill Clinton's definition of sex is rather mercurial and changes with the ages

The definition of age changes with the ages? Is that like saying that it depends on what the meaning of "is" is?

Now you've moved on to complete nonsense. The only thing you've said that is pertinent, and may be true, is that you can assert anything you want. That doesn't make it so.

The bottom line is that you insist humans are "pre-programmed" to grow old with one partner. That is not only unsupported, it is contrary to the facts. For almost all of human history, it was lucky if the parents were alive long enough to get one set of kids out the door. Until the industrial revolution people simply didn't grow old in any sense of the word. Since as a species we didn't live long enough to get old, we aren't pre-programmed for any kind of old age. Neither are we programmed for monogamy, or to become swans, or any other mystical claptrap you choose to make up. Quoting off-point statistics from the CIA doesn't change that.

As for American women and Oprah, I expect her to continue to tell them that they remain oppressed, and that their oppressors are American men. The women in the audience will all nod for the camera, and they, along with all the ladies in TV land will once again be validated in their permanent resentment towards American men. All except the ones that you encounter of course.

Domino

04-02-05, 16:19

Hardbarg: Global life table are relevant as life expectancy and the definition of old is different in different parts of the world and for different classes, just as they always have been. 31.3 is the expected life expectancy in Mozambique but it is considered young on this board. The norm for humans, as for swans is monogamy.

Your last paragraph about Oprah is well written and has a witty barb against me. However, please pause and consider the cynical attitude it displays towards American women. My bottom line is continually droning on in this thread about how awful American women are helps nobody, least of all those who may have suffered at their hands.

Chocha Monger

04-02-05, 16:36

I do not think that anyone wakes up in the morning and decides to log into the WSG Forum to bash American women just for the hell of it. I'm sure most guys would rather be off somewhere engaged in sordid acts of debauchery.

American women are not bad in all respects. I have several who I would consider to good friends and decent people in general. They can be generous and even dependable up to a point. However, this only applies if your relationship is strictly platonic. The moment that you stick your dick into them things will change quickly and the entitlement mentality will come into force. These otherwise nice women would begin to think that you owe them big time because they let you stick your cock in their precious hole. A relationship where each person took care of their share of the tab suddenly becomes one where you are expected to foot the entire bill. Most American women regard pussy as a commodity and if you indulge in it you are expected to pay a high price. Seeing pussy as a commodity is not uniquely American but you have to admit that the women here place an outrageous value on their goods while trying to cheat you out of a fair deal. They even go so far as to pretend that they don't expect any returns for their services rendered. The really audacious ones will attempt to make you pre-pay without any intention of completing the transaction. What truly amazes me though is that my female friends think that this behavior is totally normal and acceptable. Yet still, they would never attempt to steal from a store or swindle someone out of money under other circumstances. Of course, this might just be due to the fact that the law would penalize them for such behavior, but there is no pussy police as it were when it comes to sex so they can get away with it.

We twenty-something guys in America can often get nice young tight "teaser pussy". It's called teaser pussy because the first piece is free and usually very good. The goal here is to get you hooked so that you come back for repeat helpings. If you go back for more you'll find out that the poor girl has a ton of credit card debt, can't make her rent or car payment that month, or that she ran up her cell phone bill and it's about to be cut off. The key to dealing with this is to take the teaser but avoid signing up for the service. This can be good for occasional relief but since it is always a one time deal you can forget having a relationship.

I just want to say one more thing to the older guys on here. Don't think that the young girls target only older guys for their money because they do the same thing with young handsome guys with rock hard bodies. I think that the young guys might fare better with girls looking for marriage along with the cash but that's about it.

Mikster

04-02-05, 21:40

Domino, sorry pal, but you dont know what the fuck your talking about. You say that high class women south of the Rio Grande wont even look at us gringos, or if they do, look with contempt. I have never heard such bullshit in all my life. Thats all I go for when I go after "regular" girls in Peru. I was engaged to an upper class Peruvian who was white as rice and her family lived in a compound. She was nuts for me. The high class girls hate the machista attitude as much as the lower class girls do. It was so easy for me to pick up hot, white, well off chicks in Peru its laughable. Did the same thing in Cali Colombia. In Peru, its easy to find them. Go to the most exclusive clubs, high end restaurants, the mall, and they are all over the place. I had another girlfriend in Lima who was so hot I could cum just watching her undress. Upper class family, she was chief of an entire office for Nextel and her father was a high ranking government official who had other companies on the side.

It was SO fucking easy I still cant believe that you said that. I dont know what your problem is, but apparently you too, have become a pussified american male who doesnt know it yet. Go out with the Oprah clones brother, you can have them.
As for me, I will keep banging hot, white, upper class Peruvians while mongering the day away.

Enjoy your lovely, misjudged American she males.

Later

Milkster

CBGBConnisur

04-03-05, 00:48

A few months ago, I was sitting in an airport lobby, saw two beautiful Russian twins, they were gorgeous, and they were immediately making passes at me. So I went up to them and talked someone into switching seats, got to sit next to them on the flight, and I have to defend American women is just futile, when so many better looking and better behaving women are found elsewhere.

Domino

04-03-05, 03:41

mikster: i am not sure why you are making smart assed remarks about me and american shemales; maybe it is some way of having a shot at american females and me, the messenger. the whole key with getting on with women is bringing something they want to the party. that something is not money. women will always opt for freedom (give me liberty or death) if given half a chance.

i know fat, balding, ugly guys in their 50s and 60s who have young american women lining up for the privilege of being banged by them. why? because they bring romance and music into their lives; they sing their way into their panties. look at bill clinton, mr smoothie; he would have no trouble sweet talking his way into many girls' panties even if he never rose to political prominence. he is a charmer and, more importantly, he plays the sax.

interesting you mention peru where a small group of white crypto fascists have bled the country since pizarro and spain's other thugs raped it centuries ago. forgive me if i don't fully believe you. check out the japan-nampa board. the all conquering white american guys there can't even get a fucking date, because they don't know how to get a date in japan, the usa or anywhere else. did thye ever go to high school?

if these peruvians/russians are the diamonds you say they are, they would be very much americanized and would be into shopping malls etc and would know ameircans tend to have more $$ than sugar cane farmers down the road.

sure, many guys here have been hit hard by american/british/australian women. shit happns, learn by your mistakes, stop bitching, get on with your life and look at the sunny side of things.

Smut Villain

04-03-05, 04:47

Domino,

I, for one, actually appreciate your comments as of late. You remind us that before we start going too far in ripping on American "b_tches" we should take a hard look at ourselves. It helps give a balanced viewpoint on this particular subject.

HOWEVER...

Many of those same viewpoints probably come from guys who speak from experience. Speaking only for myself, I have personally witnessed most of the feminine shortcomings mentioned here. My theory is that some people don't see those shortcomings because, let's face it, not everyone has had the opportunity to travel abroad and see the differences; if you've been raised on nothing but beans and rice then it's hard to believe someone who tells you of the Porterhouse steak they just had last night.

In addition, a lot of those differences exist because of different cultures. If a Latina, for example, is used to nothing but macho jerks in her dating pool, then imagine what a refreshing breath of fresh air a polite foriegner can be? Likewise, if a Westerner sees mostly gullible, pussified men in her dating scene then I imagine a more "manly" (not necessarily macho, but manly) male can be an intriguing prospect for her (as an example, the first time I ate dinner at my Mexican ex-girlfriends' house she was floored when I helped wash the dishes - go figure?).

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: (1) I agree this is more than a matter of "all Western women are fat, emasculating b_tches"; but (2) there is a distinct reason why soooo many of the guys posting here are saying basically the same things.

Domino

04-03-05, 05:03

And I agree with you. In Australia, guys bomb the family courts: you get serious time in jail for stunts like that. I know guys there holding down 3 and 4 jobs to pay their alimony; totally stressed out and they love a good bar room brawl just to relieve the stress. I know one lady deliberately got pregnant by a very nice guy because she knew he would fork up for her and baby. I have no complaints with any of that and it is not confined to the USA.

My complaint is: this thread in particular sounds like an Oprah Winfrey for males show. A long long time ago, when I had free afternoon time, I would watch some Oprah or Jerry Springer or whatever, just the same way I drift in here. Two or three episodes were more than enough. It is the same with constantly bitching about American women. It takes two to tango.

Here in Japan, women pick me up for a bit of rough. I have actually been picked up on the street and paid to butt fuck a lady. Others pick me up because I am upper class. Others pick me up because of my artistic talents. Whatever floats their boat.

There is nothing new in any of this. Sailors have always scored well becauce they spend when they hit town and they are exotic. They give the illusion of a dream. Look at Thailand. When Operation Cobra hits town and the US Marines, Navy - and Coastguard :) - swarm ashore, the women come out of the woodwork to fuck them. Why? Because the Americans are the dream prize. And women, all women, every single woman in the world, love a dream. Your job is to be that dream. And the one card not to play is the money card.

Smut Villain

04-03-05, 07:27

CBGB,

Yes, I would have to agree with your last paragraph 100%; I've definitely found the action much easier while travelling abroad. In fact, your entire post only illustrates my point about cultural differences being a key factor. Some speak of these differences as if they were genetic, but if that were true then these women wouldn't change when relocating to the States.

Domino,

You weren't in the Coast Guard by chance, were you? I'm former Navy myself (and I've had the opportunity to swim ashore in Thailand a few times BTW ;) )

Mikster

04-03-05, 16:34

Domino, didnt really mean to attack you, sorry. The comments you made about upper class latin women was so foreign to me that it actually did make me laugh. I have never had the experience you mention. Those girls dont have to go for me, they usually stay in their own social circles and marry other well off, upper class latino men. They dont need me at all and had full knowledge that I was not rich because thats the first thing I tell women south of the border. I make no bones about it because I dont have time to waste. They still go out with me, fall in love from time to time and want me to live in their country rather then vice versa. I am no stud or Don Juan, I just dont care and I put the moves on anyone who makes me hot. As for them being fascists, I havent run across that too much but thats another topic for another day. This isnt only confined to Lima, I had the same experiences in Cali and Bogota. I simple think your wrong so we can agree to disagree.

I also disagree that most, or all, of imported third world women change and become americanized when they show up here. We will have to disagree with that one too.

As for Japan, I seriously dont know what any decent guys problem is in picking up women there. I was in Tokyo and had no problems whatsoever. I have posted in the past my method of "importing" japanese women to come here to visit me. They hop on planes and stay in my apartment for a week or so and then leave. Their not *****s, not bad girls, and have regular jobs and lives. Half of them have turned out to be smoking hot upon arrival. Next one due in May. I have no reason to bullshit you on any of this, I am anonomyous and will receive no accolades for my exploits. Its just a simple contribution to the board. I like Japanese women alot. I find them much much softer, sweeter, and more sensual then American women.

I never said ALL American women were bad. I distinctly remember saying I am talking in vast generalities and that is because in general its true. I am not going to search out for the one diamond in a sea of shit. Not when I can go elsewhere, or have them come here so easily and readily available. I have met 6 women from down south with USA Tourist Visas (an obvious sign they are well off) who have payed their own way here just to stay with me and see if there is a future between us. I usually get the itch for them to leave because I believe that I am simply not the marrying type. I know my weaknesses and my biggest one is strange pussy and until I either master it, or grow up, or whatever I will probably remain single. Giving in to my base desires is too easy and too much fun. hehehe

If it seems to bother so much I will cease bashing American women. You want them, their all yours. Good luck.

Later

Milkster

Cyberdas

04-04-05, 01:02

Maybe not all third-world women change or become Americanized when they show up here, but they certainly catch-on very quickly to the standards and expectations enforced and put forth. Practices that have been commonly accepted and interwoven into American society (read she-males and pussified/chump males).

Personally, I agree with the equal rights, opportunities and treatment of both sexes. What I don't agree with is when this is used, often times, to take advantage - and be protected while doing so - by the crazy and insane divorce laws that exist in this country.

Experiences certainly vary here, and what some are able to do successfully, others have failed or are just not able to. My hat off to those who have managed to pull off their stunts with these ladies; seriously, and my sombrero off especially to those who have done/ do so with American women. By all means.

Smut Villain

04-04-05, 01:50

Is THIS what it takes to get with American females?!?!

he hit me so what?
Reply to: anon-66746441@**********.org
Date: 2005-04-03, 5:12PM EDT

i dont CARE what my friends and family say! im in LOVE!!!! my boyfriend hit me the other night and gave me a black eye but it was MY FAULT! Why cant people understnd that? he loves me if he didn't then he wouldn't care when I messup. SO QUIT TELLING ME I SHOULD LEAVE HIM BECAUSE IM NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

(quoted from **********.org, "rants and raves" section)

Call me crazy if you want, but in my experience logical people do not think like this. Two decades of "men should be more sensitive" and this is what we get.

And people wonder why guys on in this forum keep complaining.

CBGBConnisur

04-04-05, 02:36

There are plenty of women who will stay in their home countries, especially with the news and media in a lot of countries, a lot of people know that life in America is no fairy tale. I think in more developed societies(Europe, Australia, Japan, etc.) there is less incentive for them to pick up their bags and leave. Considering the events of the past few years and the huge conservative shift in US politics and culture, you might see more people trying to get a taste of life in other places. Even in less developed places like Brazil, women have no problems finding a good local guy.

I do believe that if you bring a woman back home, expect that she will change, it also depends upon her ability to assimilate into American society. For this reason women from minority groups tend to change less than those who can fit in with the majority.

Chocha Monger

04-05-05, 02:35

when in rome do as the romans do. that is what the last few posts on foreign women coming to the u.s. brings to mind. like cyberdas mentioned some men are fortunate to have things work out for them. it might be due to having carefully selected an honest woman with a belief in retaining her culture, or due to pure luck. no one knows for sure. it can go either way even if you stack the odds in your favor. i guess it depends on whether one thinks the prize to be won is worth the risk of a crushing devastating defeat.

i have seen women from equality conscious countries like sweden where women pay their share of the bill on dates rapidly adapt the american model of having the man pay for everything. the story of women from third world countries filing for divorce after receiving their permanent visas is a common one. in fairness some guys bring this on themselves by not taking the time to screen out the visa hunters. average joe suddenly finds himself the object of the amorous attentions of a perfect 10 and throws caution to the wind. i have seen this too many times. in fact, i had to mediate for one such couple a few weeks ago.

however, american women usually take it upon themselves to show "poor ignorant" immigrant women how things are done in america. they let them know that a petite exotic beauty does not have to cook, clean or wash for her mere middle class husband and that she should in fact be ruling the roost. she is educated on the favorable terms of divorce and child support, sometimes these incentives prove to be too much to resist for a woman who spent all of her life in poverty.

as a young man i sometimes find myself here in the u.s. yearning to awake in the arms of an olive-skinned, dark-eyed, raven-haired beauty whose company i share when abroad. yet still, i sleep alone in the u.s. because it wouldn't take much to tor**** my battle damaged finances and send them to the ocean floor permanently. i literally can't afford the risk of a marital relationship in the u.s. i am thankful that in my twenties i was finally able to temper the impetuous nature of my cock with wisdom. i hope to save enough money over the years to expatriate and start a business. if that is not possible and i must bring a woman into the wild west then at least i'll have a secret stash in an off-shore haven as an insurance policy.

wsg provides more than just information on mongering. it lets guys know that they're not out there alone in the quest for a relationship with women that doesn't involve financial ruin. thanks to all for sharing their often hard earned experience.

CBGBConnisur

04-06-05, 23:47

I honestly believe that if you bring a good foreign woman back to the US, she will change. She will realize how much more she is worth in the US than back home, where there are many women who can easily replace her. Bring a beautiful and exotic woman back home and she will be stared and drooled at like a Lamborghini, and like a Lamborghini, she will get real expensive. If you keep her in the lot, you won't have to deal with maintenance costs, in other words stay with her in her home country. I think self-employed people and business owners tend to have the best chances of moving abroad than anyone else in this respect. A lot of countries welcome Americans to open up businesses in their countries, I have seen this all over, in Europe, in Asia, in SA, all over.

Long Stroker

04-07-05, 05:25

chocha monger - it looks like we're in similar boats, my friend. i more than halfway through my twenties, thanking god that i didn't fall victim to the siren call of some young lovely, only to experience first the dull pain of marriage and second the sharp pain of divorce. came close, though.

my game plan now is to attempt to position myself to profit from this new emerging global economic structure. we are in for an amazing fucking ride, believe me. i've been reading thomas friedman's newest book, "the world is flat." a good read, if only to get an idea of the groundwork and underpinnings of this new economic era. friedman's observations are astute, but i believe some of his conclusions are way off base. he does say that the next ten years will be "creative destruction on steriods," which i think is accurate.

in my estimation, the social incentives for living in the us have long been fading. trying to build a meaningful relationship with a female in america is next to impossible, unless you are willing to sumbit to a lifetime of financial servitude to her. fuck that. i'm not that stupid.

i've seen here posted by many different mongers something to the effect of: make your money in the us, and then go abroad to spend it with friendly, happy women. good advice.

however, if friedman is to be believed, the ecomonic incentives to living in the us are also fading as well, with more speed than we would like to believe. in the next ten years, disruptive technologies are going to put downward pressure on the us labor market like never before in history.

so i realized, that without these social or economic benefits to living here, why the fuck should i stay? to bear witness to the slow, inexorable decline of this once great nation? no, thanks, i'd rather be boning some little hottie in a country somewhere not polluted by the socially corrosive forces of feminism. i might even want to get married and have a family someday. but, sadly, not here in the us.

so, that's it. i'm making my long term plans for escape. this is for real. i would appreciate any comments, both positive and negative. if you think this is the stupidest shit you've ever heard of, please tell me.

p.s. cbgb - in your experience, can you tell me what kinds of businesses you've seen americans run successfully in sa and asia?

Starchild2012

04-07-05, 10:17

Just come to India once and see the attitude changing fast enough, to see the trend in globalization, if you thought american women are worst, you might get her a partner here in india, unlike in america, in india, women are being paid 3 times more than men salery on average, result, more and more women, are single in 30's, unless ofcourse they have it all beauty and brains.

The trend is fast catching up, Atleast here was a saying american women are givers, well, it never was in india, indian women will always be a "TAKER".

Folks,

Its greener always on the other side, who wants to get on with a single girl anyway, its global economy, global adventure, so get with the trend :)

Chocha Monger

04-07-05, 20:54

cbgb, i must agree with your analogy between hot imported foreign women and the lamborghini. i have seen the drool factor in effect and it is certainly not to be under-estimated. the incessant stares from guys and the and the lectures from local women on how much better she could be doing are sure to send an exotic beauty's ego on a rampage.

also, i must mention something that i saw today. this guy that i met latin america imported a woman who already had a voracious appetite for junk food. however, while she was in her home country junk food was not widely available and it was quite expensive so she wasn't able to consume it in enough quantities to turn into a lactating sow. he was warned numerous times not to take this chick back to the u.s. since she was obviously very hungry for a taste of the american lifestyle. instead of taking heed he accused everyone of being jealous, he hung out in the shop where she worked to ward of any would be suitors. things finally came to a head one day when he almost traded blows with a customer. the american shop owner promptly fired the girl after that. imagine all of this over what was an average girl when compared to her much more beautiful peers. anyway, the dumb ass married her and brought her over. when i saw them i didn't recognize her at first because the poor fool's lamborghini has now turned into a ryder truck. i couldn't help smiling to myself and wondering if he still gets into fights over her.

long stroker, i think that you're headed in the right general direction. i haven't done any in depth analysis of global economic trends but i think that it is safe to say that the old model of finding an employer and committing yourself to 20 or 30 years of serfdom in return for a pension is well on the way out the door. employers can no longer be counted on to keep their part of the bargain. no one knows what the u.s. dollar will be worth in the future, therefore it would be prudent to have a means of generating income in the country where you establish your residence. serfdom in the u.s. should probably be no more than a means of amassing some capital to fund your relocation. if you have no obligations to remain in the u.s. then your youthful viagra-free years would definitely be better spent abroad indulging in beautiful women and seeking wealth.

CBGBConnisur

04-17-05, 00:52

I find that these days, there are few social incentives to stay in America, thats why I have not returned and have no plans to return in the future. American women are HORRIBLE. Some people might think that they are not so bad but when you get to meet some women outside of the USA, you will find textbook examples of femininity, class and elegance that still exist in the 21st century. The few high quality foreign women who make it to the shores of the US often get taken by superrich Alpha types, which means regular guys have no chance whatsoever of meeting their dream woman in the US. Combined with recent politics making travel difficult, like the fall of the US Dollar relative to other foreign currencies, is making travel very expensive. I remember my first trip to Eastern Europe, I was traveling around Germany, Hungary, Latvia, the Czech Republic, and Poland. I was absolutely stunned by the sheer number of beautiful, elegant, and friendly women that I ran into, when I went back to the States I couldn't help but notice how a lot of American women I found attractive suddenly seemed so plain to me.

Occasionally I run into some fuckwit lady that thinks because I'm American I will take her back to the USA to my penthouse home and where the streets are made of gold and everyone lives in mansion and drives some fancy car and thinks life there is a bundle of roses. There are some delusional retards like this that you will run into. Better to keep them where they are then to bring them back and see you in a different light.

Sinanju Master

04-17-05, 06:59

hi all! i just got back from the philippines and i may need an entire day in confession for the things (and women) i've done.

to touch on a couple of recent posts, (and not criticizing anyone at all) i have quite a few american women friends, but there is no way in hell i'm gonna chance it by trying to start a relationship with one unless she makes the move first. i've had my heart ripped from my chest too many times (and watched it beating as it was ripped from my chest cavity) to be a fool again. i'll be friends with them and party with them, but as far as any romantic situations may go, i turn into a robot. hell, i still have american female friends from 15-25 years ago that i'm still close to. it may seem i love to bash american women for the sheer joy of it, but that's not true. i just still get angry (more at myself nowadays) for falling for the chicanery that american women will employ simply to boost their ego.

anyway, while in the philippines, i noticed thet stark difference between the american women i saw (homely and fat, not really obese, but fat) and the native women. in general, it was like watching utter rejects from american idol trying to fit in with professional beauties. i also noticed the typical monger; in his 40's extremely pale skin (not poking fun at my bretheren without color), sandals with socks (i swear i saw this!) and loud hawaiin shirts. hey, if that floats their boats, so be it, but what really made me sit up and take notice is that the chicks these guys were with seemed to be emotionless pros. for instance, i noticed one guy who had his hand in the small of a filipina's back and she seemed to try to be at least an inch ahead of that hand, as if it repulsed her. i felt sorry for the guy because he seemed (to me at least) to want some emotional attachment to her. that example was just one of several (and similar) that i observed. to the guy to said that (paraphrasing) 1st worlders are economic liberators that foreign women clamor for, you hit the nail on the head. i was never under the illusion that the relative "exotic factor" or economics doesn't play a part in nailing a foreign honey, but so what? if i can play on that advantage, so be it!

to loosely quote a recent post (sorry i can't find it, much less look for it again, 'cos i'm tired as hell right now and i wanna get some sleep) i need ta take a few pages outta clinton's book and be a silver tongued smoothie. yes, peeps, i'm admitting to the world my shortcomings and that i gotta get my act together a little more.

ciao, fellas!

Starchild2012

04-21-05, 10:08

Sinanju master, CBGB Connisur:

Agreed that american women are inmatch, But one thing I fail to get being in a third world country is, how the porn industry gets regular supply of teen and amatuer beauties.

It amazes me the kind of beauty they churn out and all gets fuc**d right in front of the camera, the kind of women I dream about whole day and night.

It hardly seem unlikely the other way as is mentioned in this forum going by the attitude of the porn cuties, the american women seem to be true "GIVER's ".

Whts wroung, Am I missing something. Please Help! I'm really confused in this one!

Sporadic

04-21-05, 20:30

But one thing I fail to get being in a third world country is, how the porn industry gets regular supply of teen and amatuer beauties.This one, even I can answer.

MONEY

For $2500, for a couple of hours work, you too can have any "dream" woman you want.

I am not trying to be flip about this. These porn actress "dream girls" are very well compensated for their time. It is just that simple.

Very top-drawer call girls also get such rates (not from me!) but they provide an important commodity... discretion.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Sinanju Master

04-21-05, 21:01

BL5, Sporadic cut right to the chase and laid out the answer for you; MONEY.

I had three teenage Philippine honeys that would turn the head of ANY guy whose dick gets hard. I can say with confidence that two of them could be in front of a porn king's camera on their way to amateur stardom.

When I go to Hell, Satan is gonna say: "Whooooooooooooa! Welcome, Sinanju Master, you're a minor celebrity down here! You can go STRAIGHT to the FRONT OF THE LINE! Your suite is in between Bill Clinton's and Tommy Lee's!"

Smut Villain

04-22-05, 00:21

Born Loser,

I was going to answer your post, but Sporadic and Sinanju took the very words from my mouth. There is no level of depravity too low for a woman when the money's right.

If this were not the truth then half the prostitutes in the world wouldn't even be prostitutes to begin with.

CBGBConnisur

04-22-05, 20:32

I think pornography is a tool of psychological warfare against men in America, other than topless bars its the only legal sexual outlet for men in America. Most pornography is use to tease the fewer into seeing what he will never experience in real life. In countries that have legal prostitution, just about every country in Europe, Canada, and Australia, has legal outlets to visit prostitutes, however pornography is not as prevalent as it is in the USA. Why spend money on crappy porno movies when you can have the real experience with a real woman? Pornography has no use to me whatsover, when I get real sex with real women, porno movies and magazines have no use to me whatsoever.

Sinanju Master

04-22-05, 20:52

CBGB, I don't know if pornography has NO USE WHATSOEVER. Were it not for pornography (or conversations with my friends when I was growing up) I probably would have believed that sex is some (literally) magical event that happens when your eyes are closed while partially or fully clothed. I wouldn't have developed my taste (and appreciation) for certain types of women's bodies. I wouldn't have discovered the fact that women's bodies are a minefield of erogenous zones and so on. Pornography has its uses, but it goes only so far. It will NEVER replace the experience of running your lips over a woman's warm soft flesh while her breathing becomes shallower, or experiencing the moment of being inside her. It has its uses but makes for a poor substitute for the real thing.

CBGBConnisur

04-22-05, 21:37

Pornography is nothing more than a psychological weapon, in a society like the US where sexual images are present all over the media but prostitution and other sexual outlets are illegal, this is the most obvious proof. I have visited other countries where sexual services for fees are legal and the level of pornographic content in the media is considerably lower. In countries like England and Germany, you can walk into a local brothel, screw a gorgeous woman for a small sum of money, and be on your way. Yet in the US, this is not okay, but its okay to tease men with sexual images on TV and printed media, its completely contradictory.

Long Stroker

04-23-05, 03:27

Born Loser 5,

Definately money is a primary motivator for girls to get into the porn biz like other posters have mentioned, but there are other factors. Many women in adult entertainment were molested as children. Daddy diddled with their doodle when they were young and now they want the world to see how fucked up they are. Engaging in the sexual act (mirroring the episodes of child abuse) over and over on film becomes a kind of coping mechanism for the victim, a cathartic release and the only way to make sense of the circumstances they find themselves in.

Bart9000

04-23-05, 07:16

It's kind of funny. I to some degree lost my taste for porn after a trip to Prague. It's like "I don't need to watch this crap, as the memories bouncing around my head are far superior to most of what I am seeing".

"Bart"

Sporadic

04-23-05, 07:31

IMHO you are painting with pretty broad strokes there LS.

I have no doubt that there are victims of child abuse in the porn/stripper industry, but I would suggest there are also victims in every other profession or trade as well.

I would look for a new textbook.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Daddy Rulz

04-23-05, 15:42

I was thinking about it and I've never once looked at porn in BsAs, there is simply no need. I do see a fair amount of porn in the sex shops but I've never seen anybody looking at it or bying it. I'm sure that some people there make use of it but I don't think many.

Why watch when you can be involved, unless it's watching two chicas lick each others pussy's before you fuck them. Or watch the one your fucking lick her amiga's. Live porn, now that's something I can get behind.

Oh yes before I forget. In keeping with this boards subject, American women suck.

Sinanju Master

04-23-05, 17:11

If you have ample access to the real thing, then yes, porn has no use. My recent vacation in the Philippines emphasized that BIG TIME. The only place I really saw any porn whatsoever was on the streets being sold by flea market vendors in the form of DVD's.

Long Stroker

04-23-05, 17:57

Perhaps my generalization was a bit too sweeping - certainly not all women who are in the adult entertainment industry were victims of child abuse. But I would suggest that the percentage working in porn is higher than any other profession one could name.

By the way, calling me Broad Stroker, that was pretty clever. You had me chuckling over my afternoon tea today!

Dickhead

04-23-05, 19:10

What a pile of horseshit in that last post. "Severely Sexually Abused" = some guy put his hand on my ass. "Multiple Personality Disorder" = confused about what I want to be if I ever grow up. "Major Depressive Episode" = waah waah waah snivel I didn't get what I wanted.

One the other hand there are men who do sick things to young girls and the solution to this is castration, as the disorder cannot be effectively treated. However, the bleeding heart pussified limp dick whining pseudo-liberal jack offs compiling the statistics will always grossly overstate the prevalence to justify their own pathetic existences.

Sporadic

04-23-05, 19:18

Long stroker,

The "study" you site sounds just a little sensational to me. It could very well be, I do not know, but I detect a bit of over-enthusiastic psycho-babble, as is typical in most advocacy groups. No harm in it I suppose.

Depending on who writes the questions you could probably say 90% of the world population suffers from "Major Depressive Episodes."

Please do not misunderstand, I am NOT defending child abuse (or any type of abuse for that matter.)

As to the matter of porn: Gentlemen, two things have revolutionised this industrty, the Internet and Viagra.

People no longer have to skulk around shady shops to get a thrill, they can just do a google image search in the privacy (har!) of their own home.

I do agree with your premise that when plenty of the real thing is on offer, photos and videos are pretty pale.

Taking my cue from Daddy Rulz, American women suck (or not very well!)
There. On topic.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Long Stroker

04-23-05, 19:19

let me just make a few points.

First, I'm not trying to be the morality police here. I like my porn and my ho's just as much as the next guy.

Second, and this is just speculation, but I think this problem is in some ways uniquely American, rooted in the Puritanical repression of our history. This ties in with what some of you guys were saying about the prevalence of porn overseas. It exists, but it isn't nearly as necessary. Sex is much more readily available over there.

I've been with plenty of prostitutes in Central and South America, and I didn't get the same victim vibe off them as I do with North American prostitutes. Latin American females generally have a much healthier view of sex, and most often engage in prostitution out of economic neccesity, not as an acting out from abuse.

Lastly, the only reason I posted all of this was in respone to Born Loser's question. I hope you're reading this, dude!

Long Stroker

04-23-05, 19:32

I was reading some more of that website, and it did begin to seem to me a bit like some "over-enthusiastic psycho-babble" as you said, so I removed the post due to lack of credibile sources. I'm not trying to start a war here, just trying to help Born Loser see a side of the issue he might not be aware of all the way over there in India.

BTW, this topic is apparently some real third-rail shit here so, as of right now, I am done discussing it.

Sporadic

04-23-05, 21:35

Long Stroker,

It would appear that I am sending the wrong vibes here. I was not trashing what you posted, just trying to discuss it!

Indeed you make an important point
but I think this problem is in some ways uniquely American, rooted in the Puritanical repression of our history. I think you may have hit the nail on the head here. I have been living the expat life so long that I am seriously out of touch with the good old USA, but thinking back (way back!) to providers in the US, yes, I think you are correct.

The "repressed" attitude in the US certainly must play a part. I remember what an eye-opening experience my first overseas jaunt was during college days. The shock of understanding that there were alternative ways of looking at sexuality (and life) was a shock to a serious WASP.

Seriously, I was not trying to bully you. If I gave you that impression, please accept my apologies.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Sporadic

04-23-05, 21:47

Dickhead:
However, the bleeding heart pussified limp dick whining pseudo-liberal jack offs compiling the statistics will always grossly overstate the prevalence to justify their own pathetic existences.
Mr. Dickhead Sir, I tip my hat in your general direction :)

I get seriously worked up when well meaning but uninformed (or over educated) jag-offs mislead the "public" with distorted or fabricated "results" designed to justify a victimised position.

If I have to say this, this comment is not directed at the messenger... Long Stroker was only reporting info he found to support a position.

At all events, your description Mr. Dickhead is erudite, concise and IMHO correct.

Cheers,

Sporadic

CBGBConnisur

04-24-05, 22:50

Like a popular soft drink "Can't beat the real thing." Porn can't substitute for the real experience. When you go to a country where the real service is available, why bother with crappy porno movies and magazines? They become useless after that point.

I don't know what type of people end up in the porn business but some of them actually come from very "normal" backgrounds. I believe one of the biggest porn stars was once a special education teacher.

As far as the theme of this discussion topic: "AMERICAN WOMEN SUCK!!!". If you get disrespected by an American women don't take it personally and remember the motto, American women suck.

Daddy Rulz

04-25-05, 07:06

AMERICAN WOMEN SUCK
(not very well though)

Or maybe

AMERICAN WOMEN SUCK
(not very well though)
((except the fat ones))

Thanks sporadic

CBGBConnisur

04-26-05, 16:26

Only a few regions of the US truly have desirable and approachable women. Frankly I thought South Florida was pretty good but then again that region has a large Hispanic population, and Hispanic women are well known for both their beauty and approachability. Then again not everyone can have the opportunity to live in South Florida

Regions like the West Coast and Northeast are probably the worst and have the most stuck up women on the planet.

Still the best way to go is international, South America, Eastern Europe, and Asia are worlds above the USA. Western Europe is actually okay because its easy to find women from the former Eastern bloc in those parts.

Speaking of pornography, the general US media, has a major role in contributing to American society's idea of what is beautiful and who can be beautiful. Typically the mass media in the US sees mostly white American women as the most desirable in the world. When I first traveled abroad and saw the stunning array of beautiful women of many nationalities, races, and ethnic origins, I came back to realize that the US media is full of shit. Hollywood and the TV executives only show what they believe is beautiful, they also act as a propaganda machine to a degree, that's why certain nationalities of beautiful women are never represented in the US media because a beautiful woman of a certain nationality or ethnic origin can send an indirect political message. So Hollywood will portray certain ethnicities of women as being ugly. Note the Bennigans' commercial with Russian women being portrayed as fat and ugly in the 1980's, I have been to Moscow and during the summer months you will get a neck ache from turning your head every other second to look at the beautiful cyrillic babes. Few ethnic women are ever portrayed as an ideal woman. I have met real women in many countries around the world who can put the best looking American actresses to shame. When you look at the image of a hollywood celebrity you are looking at the image of what some stuffy exec thinks is beautiful.

Bart9000

04-27-05, 06:22

We were discussing pornography. I have a "little friend" in the Czech Republic that I regularly amuse with stories of how stupid, obnoxious and annoying American girls are. Currently, as a further example of said annoying behavior, I am considering sending her some samples of the "Girls Gone Wild" videos. Amid bouncing titties, and borderline lesbianism (generally good things), there are some simply wonderful examples of Paris Hilton level obnoxious bi--ch behavior-which we of course excuse when the tits start seeing sunshine.

MeatMan

04-27-05, 18:29

Just to make it short, American women are getting fatter and fatter and fatter and fatter and fatter and fatter!. I was at a bus stop in my hometown and I saw this woman sitting at a bus stop eating a $2.00 bag of onion rings munching away as if there wasn't a worry in the world.

Looking at her, I can see she was attractive at one time...but not anymore! She had rolls on top of rolls. The kicker was she saw me looking at her and gave me a ugly scowl as if she were saying: "What the fuck are you looking at?" or " Your not getting any!!"

If they keep this up, American women are doomed!! DOOMED I TELL YOU!

*Shakes Head*

Sinanju Master

04-27-05, 22:16

Yanno, before I went on my trip to the Philippines, two of my female coworkers asked me if I was gonna bring back a Filipina (or at least hook up with one when I was there) to the US. They then made it a point to compare them to US females (being more "man-friendly" to put it in a nutshell). I joked around with them, but I could sense their barely-contained hostility at the thought of me forsaking an American woman for the comfort and pleasure of a Filipina. Take note of the fact that I did not even ONCE recite to them an item-by-item comparison between the two. If I DID, they would certainly have ganged up on me and slung unsupported accusations my way. This is how they (American Women) act when they perceive that their grip on power is slipping...

CBGBConnisur

04-28-05, 01:15

I met a Czech girl in Germany who was as hot as Paris Hilton but didn't have the Paris Hilton ego, her personality was a big difference compared to attractive blondes in North America.

Bart9000

04-28-05, 06:27

Yea buddy I hear you. The vibe that I got off of the girls I met in Prague was like "I am just girl, nothing special". Infinitely preferable to the "Why Becky, didn't you know that the world revolves around my pussy?" of our lovely domestic models.

CBGBConnisur

04-30-05, 21:59

Jaswells

05-01-05, 01:39

European women behave differently probably due to cultural reasons, disrespect and irreverance is largely seen as a negative in Europe, whereas in America its 'cool' to be a rebel. American women act the way they do as a way of rebeling against men. The major players and figures in the women's liberation movement are mostly American women.I live in Hong Kong spent some time in the US and mostly found the women there incorrigable and irritating! How can they be so successful in making the life of men so miserable! The truth is guys do need their egos flattered with a range of subtle behavioural traits by women and it makes life so much more pleasant! I see no evidence of American women being happier for their rebelliousness!

My query is who is to blame! I understand the US is a transient population but how come every corner of the continent seems to have this feature in women! Having lived in Asia I find the answer is not equality in the workplace etc , but quite simply in the hands of the media! In Asia women are not constantly fed BS on TV/magazines showing women stropping out and being bitches in public! Asian women wouldnt know how to behave in this way!

I caught a glimpse of a program called the gastineau twins/sisters on E channel yesterday! OH MY GOD! Who would want to spend a second in the company of that pair! Truely, hell on earth and i pity any guy that gets stuck with them........im sure i will get no rebuttle on that point!

Mister Luva

05-01-05, 12:16

When you look at the image of a hollywood celebrity you are looking at the image of what some stuffy exec thinks is beautiful.In addition, those same so-called beautiful actresses are not that great looking if you take away the makeup. I have ordinary women, without acting contracts who are far prettier. Not be gay bashing, however, how much of that image is fostered by those gay/bi/downlow execs in particular?

CBGBConnisur

05-02-05, 14:36

I live in Hong Kong spent some time in the US and mostly found the women there incorrigable and irritating! How can they be so successful in making the life of men so miserable! The truth is guys do need their egos flattered with a range of subtle behavioural traits by women and it makes life so much more pleasant! I see no evidence of American women being happier for their rebelliousness!

My query is who is to blame! I understand the US is a transient population but how come every corner of the continent seems to have this feature in women! Having lived in Asia I find the answer is not equality in the workplace etc , but quite simply in the hands of the media! In Asia women are not constantly fed BS on TV/magazines showing women stropping out and being bitches in public! Asian women wouldnt know how to behave in this way!

I caught a glimpse of a program called the gastineau twins/sisters on E channel yesterday! OH MY GOD! Who would want to spend a second in the company of that pair! Truely, hell on earth and i pity any guy that gets stuck with them........im sure i will get no rebuttle on that point!

That show was about Mark Gastineau's wife and daughter. Well American women are spoiled rotten, they are accustomed to getting whatever the hell they want, especially the rich ones. Then again, America's got one really important thing that isn't as present in other countries, Money!!! I have traveled to other countries and figured this out quickly, women elsewhere like money, but American women bring to a whole new level.

As far as comparing American women to foreign women, I think the reasons for the former's bitchiness is due to culture and society. Some of the most arrogant American women that I have seen have came from abroad, particularly Eastern Europeans, Middle Easterners, and South Americans, they integrate into American society quite well due to America's habit of absorbing and 'liberating' women who come from societies where they were human door mats. I actually met a woman who was an American citizen but was raised in Europe and noticed how different she was from her counterparts that lived in the US. The lesson is that if you bring that nice foreign woman back home, chances are that she will change, and it will mostly be the fault of society.

It's easy to meet women in other countries, I have met some perfect examples of beauty and class over the years, some real gems. However it seems the best way to keep a good relationship with them is to live with them in their society. This is so for a number of reasons:1) Long distance relationships are stressful especially in this day and age when anything can up between the two of you while you are seperated. ( A beautiful woman I met in Europe who I knew was the one for me was killed in a car crash. ) 2) Cultural, she might change if you bring her back. 3) The first reason, it will be expensive as hell to travel back and forth and with the vacation time that most Americans get travel will be difficult if not impossible.

Mike12

05-03-05, 03:49

Back on the subject of woman and food. This chick that sits next to me in class pull out a pack of pop tarts, laffy taffys, 20 oz bottle of coke, and buttered bagel and eats it all at 9 in the morning. At 10:30, 20 oz bottle of Pepsi, cheese doodles, and candy bar. She has a pretty face but is on the way to being chubby. I just watched this and couldn't wait till the next week to see what was for breakfast which turned out to be more of the same.

Cebu Local

05-04-05, 12:25

An Filipino-Chinese friend of mine is engaged to an American girl of Irish-German Descent.But She was born in the Philippines,Went to school until College in the Philippines and only goes back to visit family in the States.She is very sweet,giving,considerate and really knows to treat her man well.Actually she is a good friend of mine also.She is about 80% filipinized with her indupendent spirit and self reliance the only things American about her.I thought of her,when you guys were talking about bringing a foriegn girl to the states and how they develop bad attitudes.Apparently raise an American girl outside the US,and you get the opposite American girls with better attitudes.An american babe that takes better care of herself and with a more Filipina attitude towards men.A French friend of mine in Malaysia is married to American girl who grew up in thailand.Same thing,She had adopted many Thai attitudes towards Men.She speaks thai,Cooks Thai Food and does regular foot massages and back massages for my friend.Yes there are still diamonds out there in the sea of mediocore American women

CBGBConnisur

05-04-05, 23:46

An American woman who is raised in another country usually contrasts in comparison to an American woman who was raised in the states, unfortunately such an American woman is hard to find. The definition of an American woman is rather loose since the USA is an immigration country and people of virtually every country live there. Any foreign women can become legally "American" after residing in the States for five years with their husband. Many foreign women not only become legally American but culturally American, and that is the problem with most local American, women their culture and behavior is what drives a lot of us to go abroad in search of women. For this reason, I sincerely believe that if you bring a foreign woman back to the US and in the likely case that she integrates into American society well, she will be as bad if not worse than most local American women. I think only East Asian women are the exception as many seem to retain their ways for a number of reasons, they are discriminated against more compared to South American and Eastern European women, so they feel a bit alienated and become more dependent on their boyfriend or husband.

Cebu Local

05-04-05, 23:51

Additional update
Told her about this post and she wanted me to add that It is also a matter of common sense,If she has a bitchy typical American attitude,how would she find anybody decent competing with plenty of sexy sweet filipinas.But one she will never be is totally helpless like many Asian women.She has a career and is indupendent,But She knows her man and family to be is first.It is a pity there are not more of American women like her

Cyberdas

05-06-05, 22:57

Here's an interesting article that is in line with what we often discuss in this forum:

http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/142_dating_advice.html

On a Saturday evening in July 1995, a man named Rich Zubaty (author of Surviving the Feminization of America and founder of MENTOR, an organization advocating healthy masculinity) staged an impromptu rally in Harvard Square to protest the swelling tide of anti-male propaganda and the shaming of men in the media. Calling it "Take Back the Penis," Zubaty thought the rally would register only a minor blip on the sociological radar screen. But amid strident female shouts of "Lorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General," scores of frustrated men began to flock to his banner, all intent on demonstrating their intrinsic belief that "It's O.K. to be a man."
That was almost 10 years ago. Have guys like Zubaty ushered in a decade of change? Not really. The average guy is still P-whipped by our culture, emasculated by the media, forced to cater to women, and pressured to act in a "politically correct" manner. TV, movies and advertisements increasingly portray men as simple-minded buffoons and as pawns to female "strength" and "competence."

what women want

At least books other than Zubaty's have appeared in the meantime -- The War Against Boys by Christina Hoff Summers, No More Mr. Nice Guy! by psychologist Dr. Robert Glover and Being a Man in a Woman's World by Dennis Neder -- all arguing that contemporary men are being robbed of their essential masculinity. But unfortunately, far more influential are movies like Mel Gibson's cotton candy pander-fest What Women Want, in which macho ad exec Nick Marshall (Gibson) loses a promotion to a female coworker because he doesn't understand that "It's a woman's world out there," and he only can redeem himself by learning to think like a female.

So the problem remains. As women continue to usurp positions of power and influence, as our culture exponentially coddles and panders to the female gender, as "equal rights" come to mean a kick in the balls, our society has learned to deify women and demonize men. The message is clear: women are good, men are bad. And what men need, the females trumpet, is to be more like women -- to be thoroughly feminized. This is especially true in the dating/mating arena.

the sad sitcom story

Any typical television sitcom tells the sad story. On Everybody Loves Raymond, the perpetually henpecked Ray Barone is expected to endure his wife Debra's bitchiness, lack of sexual desire and anti-male barbs as she castigates every aspect of his behavior. When he wants to take off for a couple of hours to play golf, he's "not taking care of his family" (the symbolism of her denying him golf -- his putter and balls -- should be obvious); when he wants to relax in front of the TV after a hard day on the job, he "never talks to her or shares his feelings;" and when he wants sex, he's "constantly mauling her."

Poor Ray is not alone...

As every aspect of Ray's masculine nature is demeaned and belittled, he is portrayed as inferior to Debra, while she is lionized as a superior human being. If he does try to stand up for his male rights, she berates him mercilessly, usually threatening to withhold sex until he backs down and rolls over. No mention is ever made that he works all day to pay for her mortgage, car, clothing, food, insurance, and entertainment, while she spends her afternoons at home trying to learn how to cook meatballs, the most important ingredient of which, according to her mother-in-law Marie, is "love." Notice that no one points out that someone has to sweat and toil to pay for this "love."

In essence, Ray is humiliated and punished because he acts like a man and not like the "perfect" Debra, a woman. His response? He apologizes -- Debra's right, he's wrong. He should be more sensitive, romantic and sharing of his feelings. He might just as well cut off his testicles and hand them over to her on a plate.

men who act like women

The problem is that we are turning into a nation of Rays. The standard held up to us is entirely female. This can be easily witnessed in the rise of the "metrosexual," the straight man so feminized that, like a woman, he is obsessed with his appearance, daubs on makeup and opts for cosmetic surgery. Today, men are supposed to have "relationship skills," and they are expected to be capable of achieving "greater intimacy" and to openly express their emotions. They are supposed to be "soul mates" and to "communicate" like girlfriends, not act like testosterone-charged lovers. But at the same time, today's woman has still not shed her typical female hypocrisy; as usual, she still wants it both ways. When there's hard work to be done or bills to be paid, that's when she wants us to act like "real men."

The result? A generation of guys totally bewildered, confused and disoriented. Let's face it: A man's needs are pretty minimal. All he really asks for is regular sex and a cold one. But instead, what he gets are allegations that he's "too aggressive" and trumped-up charges of "sexual harassment" for what is simply a natural appreciation of the opposite sex. If he wants to keep his job or go on a date, he's forced to endure a gut load of female bullying.

the role of feminism

It's tempting to blame the whole mess on the so-called "feminism" that has cut the heart out of Western culture. But mainstream "feminism" is a self-serving movement that grants societal license to female greed. The real culprit here is sex. As always, women -- shrewd and manipulating as they are -- know full well that most guys will do just about anything to get laid. So, as females feel their oats with their newfound power, they do what comes naturally to them: They use it for sexual blackmail. If guys want access to our bodies, they say, they're going to have to dance to our feminizing tunes.

It's completely lost on today's woman that females are too emotionally immature, greedy and self-indulgent to do anything but abuse and misuse this power, and they can't see that their short-term selfish thinking really equates to shooting themselves in the foot. The truth is, men are supposed to be men and women are supposed to be women. Mother Nature has made us this way through five million years of evolution. And it's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

time to take it back

So what can we do about it?

It's time to take our territory back. Take back the penis. This is why Rich Zubaty's rally touched such a raw nerve. Men certainly didn't ask to have their territory redefined. But redefined it has been, right under our noses. Now it's time -- before it's really too late -- to stand up to women, to let them know that we're not going to take it anymore.

As Zubaty writes: "Our job is not to get along with the Goddess. Our job is to f**k the Goddess."

Amen.

Article Suggested By: Gary Smith, Des Moines, IA
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Sinanju Master

05-07-05, 02:25

Hmm... I bet that article first appeared on two stone tablets carved from Mount Sinai! lol

New Bound

05-08-05, 14:04

I've done a good amount of traveling in the US, and it is important to note that women are more friendly and flirtatious in different parts of the USA-- and thus more fun to be around. Of course as a whole the US is a terrible place for casual non pro sex when compared with international destinations. I'm only talking about the USA here. I thought I'd give my opinion on the 10 best and worst USA cities to be an American male looking for a little nookie when you don't have much money. Of course if your Bill Gates you could have fun in Topeka, Kansas with 50 models no problem-- but how many of us have 45 billion to blow on babes?

Ok, here is my 10 best and worst city USA city list:

10 worst US cities -- with the most stuck up, full of attitude, women--

1. Very worst -- Seattle, WA-- in the entire world.
2. Portland, OR
3. Boston, MA
4. New York, NY
5. Anchorage, AK
6. Chicago, IL
7. Dallas, TX
8. Kansas City, MO
9. Norfolk, VA
10. Phoenix, AZ
11. L.A., CA

10 cities where USA women have less attitude, are more fun, and dating is much more enjoyable:

1. Miami, FL -- best city in the USA in my opinion. Many stuck up American women, but also a lot of women who are pretty sexy, and don't have so much attitude. With a little time you can find a gem.
2. New Orleans, LA
3. Tampa, FL
4. Orlando, FL
5. Memphis, TN
6. Nashville, TN
7. Washington, D.C.
8. Louisville, KY
9. San Francisco, CA
10. San Diego, CA
11. Atlanta, GA
12. Philadelphia, PA, (the women are friendly, but very fat. Possibly the most fat in the country in my opinion.)

Also, of interest. The US Mexican border town women, El Paso, Laredo, Brownsville, etc, all have less attitude as well compared with the average American women.

Just my opinion. Of course nothing in the USA comes even close to Brazil, Thailand, or other international destinations.

Good luck with your adventures,

NB

Smut Villain

05-09-05, 00:46

The US Mexican border town women, El Paso, Laredo, Brownsville, etc, all have less attitude as well compared with the average American women.

Having spent time in half these towns, as well as San Diego and Norfolk, I can say from experience that you are quite right. When a town is located close to the border, the men realize that their American female counterparts aren't the only game in town. The female realize this, too, so the attitude factor goes down considerably. Good post!

Cebu Local

05-09-05, 12:26

Having spent time in half these towns, as well as San Diego and Norfolk, I can say from experience that you are quite right. When a town is located close to the border, the men realize that their American female counterparts aren't the only game in town. The female realize this, too, so the attitude factor goes down considerably. Good post!
The same goes for American Women living overseas in Asia and Europe.With competition from the local Asian and European women,they have to adopt new attitudes and learn new skills or end up with lonely nights

Bart9000

05-10-05, 16:56

Bart9000

05-10-05, 17:09

I know of course that some of you gentlemen are fathers, but I have to say that I am generally not too fond of children here in the US (at least after they start to talk, they are kind of cute before that). I find that they are in most cases, spoiled, over-indulged, obnoxious, loud, etc...(disclaimer of hypocracy-I'm sure I was like this too as a child). However, I saw just the greatest thing the other day.

I'm currently paying the bills working as a waiter in a restaurant. One of my customers was a heavily accented (recent imigrant, or visitor) 40ish Polish mother, her 12-13 year old daughter, and a maybe 7-8 year old son. As I was taking the order of the Mother and daughter, the boy very politely RAISED HIS HAND and waited patiently for me to acknowledge him. When I noticed this, I did acknowledge him, and he asked (in accented English of course) "Please may I use the restroom?". I of course sent him on his way astounded at the courtesy and politeness (more typical American behavior would be brashly interrupting his Mother or Sister, or running off on his own)

If (most) American children acted like this, I would be much less prone to refer to them as "womb sh*t".

Rock Dog

05-11-05, 01:09

It doesn't matter what part of the world you are talking about. The higher the supply of guys with jobs/money, the higher the women will value their vagina.

Make the situation a bit more competitive, ie: less guys with money, or more women competing for the available supply of good men .... and all of a sudden attitudes dissappear and p*ssy becomes plentiful. It seems like mogic, but it's just the power of supply and demand.

I would imagine that the typical american chick overseas would be at a terrible disadvantage to the local girls. In my own travels overseas, I've noticed that other western guys often go a little bit nuts when they arrive. It's kind of like getting out of jail or something. First, you can't get over how great these other women are. Then you realize that these women are just being the way women are supposed to be, and that it's the women back home who are all fucked up.

Rock

CBGBConnisur

05-11-05, 03:28

The media story about the so-called Runway Bride solidified my negative feelings towards American women. Jennifer Willbanks ran away on a bus and told authorities that she was kidnapped. Her boyfriend is absolutely and completely in need of visiting the doctor to get some testosterone injections so he could be a man and not put up with absolutely psychotic and twisted behavior like this.

Domino

05-11-05, 03:50

CBCG: Can't agree dude. When I lived in Latin America, there was a certain family of females who all had lovely jugs. Everybody had fucked them; I am sure their own parents even fucked them as that is the way they were. A friend of mine, an innocent redneck straight out of central casting, fell for one of them. He was in love. But she wanted dick and plenty of it. So she let him high and dry with his dick in his hand and fucked off to France with some French loser (loser as he got stuck with that witch from hell). That run away bride is obviously a problem case (why the big dumb and expensive wedding anyway). But there are lots of good apple pie eating American women out there who just want to meet a nice innocent boy like

John T Domino

and they will (as long as they stay off the apple pie:))

Rock Dog

05-12-05, 02:02

Here's my take on the so-called "runaway bride".

She is a typical, modern, western female. She's been raised to believe that she can have whatever she wants. Whatever, whenever and however much it may be, she can have it because she is the keeper of that most valued resource.... the vagina.

Now comes the wedding. Uh-Oh! Getting the guy means giving up on some of her other options. Remeber this type of woman likes to have her cake and eat it too. What happens? A typical approach/avoidance conflict. Her solution? Run away, thereby putting of the wedding and still (hopefully) keeping all her options open. Lot's of guys get the same feelings right before they get married so no big deal if it happens to a woman.

What really dissappoints me is that this pathetic dork would actually still be interested enough to take her back.

IMHO, the groom's friends should send him on a short trip to Brazil or Argentina where he can see what a quality woman REALLY is.

Rock

Long Stroker

05-12-05, 05:05

Great fuckin' post, man. Excellent information. Thanks for sharing.

Anybody here watch The Daily Show with Jon Stewart? He recently had on as a guest Christina Hoff Sommers. She was promoting some new book of hers, but I was reminded of a work she put out some years back called "The War Against Boys." Great reading, very informative stuff. The feminazis unleashed a firestorm on her at the time, calling her research methods flawed and so forth. The intensity of the criticism she received leads one to believe that she was probably very close to the truth.

New Bound - thanks for your top ten (and bottom ten) list. I am going to be relocating in about 20 months and a top consideration, aside from salary of course, is availability of friendly females. Oh yeah, and let's not forget the proximity of the closest international airport! Boo-yah!

Any other sugesstions for top US pussy cities? I have seen posted on WSG to stay away from the Bible belt (in general, exceptions exist of course.)

CBGBConnisur

05-13-05, 04:26

In my experience, in the US, most of the sunbelt states are good. South Florida is my favorite, although there are a lot of snooty women, that area has a large hispanic immigrant population, so its easy to find someone desirable. I saw a similar trend in Texas, Arizona, Nevada, and California. Up North, I thought French Canadian women were very attractive and also quite approachable.

Long Stroker

05-13-05, 05:43

more women are deciding that marriage is not inevitable, that they can lead a fulfilling life as a single. it's an empowering choice, but for many not an easy one

by tamala m. edwards, time magazine

jodie hannaman grew up in houston, a city as fond of formal weddings as of barbecues and rodeos. so it was saying something at duschene academy, her roman catholic girls' school, that hannaman was chosen as most likely to be married first. but her teenage fantasies of buttercream frosting and silky bridesmaids dresses first began to crack with her high school sweetheart. he dated her for more than a decade before she finally got tired of waiting for a marriage proposal that was never going to come. there were other men after that, but it was hannaman who repeatedly decided against a life built for two. marriage, it began to dawn on her, wasn't an end in itself but rather something she wanted only if she found the right guy.

now hannaman, 32, spends 60 hours a week in her job as project manager for chase bank of texas in houston, in an office decorated with art-museum magnets and cathy cartoons. she extends her business trips into the weekends for solo mini-vacations, enjoys the social whirl of the junior league volunteer circuit, and has started looking for a house. while she would love a great romance that would lead to marriage, she no longer feels she has to apologize fr being single. "i've finally matured enough to acknowledge that there's more to life than being married," she says. "i'd like to get married and have kids, but something in the past few years has changed. i'm happier being single."

hannaman might seem to have little in common with the four lead characters on tv's sex and the city, single women who live the supafly life and discard men quicker than last season's bag and shoes--and look damn good doing it. her sex life isn't nearly as colorful, for one thing. all of them, nevertheless, are part of a major societal shift: single women, once treated as virtual outcasts, have moved to the center of our social and cultural life. unattached females--wisecracking, gutsy gals, not pathetic saps--are the heroines du jour in fiction, from melissa bank's collection of stories, the girls' guide to hunting and fishing, to helen fielding's bridget jones's diary, the publishing juggernaut that has spawned one sequel and will soon be a movie. the single woman is tv's it girl as well, not just on sex and the city, the smash hbo series in the midst of its third buzz-producing season in the u.s., but also on a growing number of american network shows focused on strong, career-minded single women.

the single woman has come into her own. not too long ago, she would live a temporary existence: a rented apartment shared with a girlfriend or two and a job she could easily ditch. adult life--a house, a car, travel, children--only came with a husband. well, gone are the days. forty-three million american women are currently single--more than 40% of all adult females, up from about 30% in 1960. (the ranks of single men have grown at roughly the same rate.) if you look at women of the most marriageable age, the numbers are even more dramatic: in 1963, 83% of women 25 to 55 were married; by 1997 that figure had dropped to 65%. "are you kidding? an 18% to 20% change? "this is huge," says linda waite, a sociologist at the university of chicago.

to be sure, the rise in single women encompasses some other important trends. an estimated 4 million of these unmarried women are cohabiting with their lovers, and a growing number are being more open about gay relationships. nevertheless, single women as a group are wielding more and more clout. a young and rubicam study released earlier this year labeled single women the yuppies of this decade, the blockbuster consumer group whose tastes will matter most to retailers and dictate our trends. the report found that nearly 60% of single women own their own home, buying them faster than single men; that single women fuel the home-renovation market; and that unmarried women are giving a big boost to the travel industry, making up half the adventure travelers and 2 out of 5 business travelers.

equally important is the attitudinal change. the dictionary once defined a spinster as an unmarried woman above a certain age: 30. if you passed that milestone without a partner, your best hope was to be seen as an eccentric auntie mame; your worst fear was to grow old like miss havisham, locked in her cavernous mansion, bitter after being ditched at the altar. not any more. "we've ended the spinster era," says philadelphia psychotherapist diana adile kirschner, who has made single women a focus of her practice. "women used to tell me about isolation, living alone, low level of activity, feeling different. now there's family, lots of friends, they're less isolated and more integrated into social lives."

more confident, more self-sufficient, and more choosy than ever, women no longer see marriage as a matter of survival and acceptance. they feel free to start and end relationships at will--more like, say, men. in a yankelovich poll for time and cnn, nearly 80% of men and women said they thought they would eventually find the perfect mate. but when asked whether, if they didn't find mr. perfect, they would marry someone else, only 34% of women said yes, in contrast to 41% of men. "let's face it. you don't just want a man in your life," says author bank, 39. "you only want a great man in your life."

single by choice--it's an empowering statement for many women. yet it's not a choice that all women arrive at easily or without some angst, and it raises a multitude of questions. are women too unrealistic about marriage--so picky about men that they're denying themselves and society the benefits of marriage while they pursue an impossible ideal? does the rejection of marriage by more women reflect a widening gender gap--as daughters of the women's movement discover that men, all too often, have a far less liberated view of the wife's role in marriage? do the burgeoning ranks of single women mean an outbreak of sex and the city promiscuity? and what about children? when a woman makes the empowering decision to rear a child on her own, what are the consequences, for mother and child?

society, to be sure, is far more accepting of single women than it was even a few years ago. when barbara baldwin, the director of planned parenthood in tennessee, divorced her husband in 1981, she needed her father's help before anyone would give the then 29-year-old single mother a car loan and a credit card. beverley dejulio, a divorced chicago mother who hosts handy ma'am, a weekly home-improvement show on pbs, says she dreaded the hardware store for years, because salespeople kept asking, "where's your husband?" and the stone age year when anne elizabeth, a chicago artist, then 35, had to fight to not be listed as spinster on the mortgage application for her lakeside home? it was 1984.

in many cases, women who choose the single life have looked at those around them and vowed not to make their mistakes. "my mother married her first boyfriend. all my relatives stayed in marriages that are really tough," says pam henneberry, 31, an accountant who lives in manhattan. "when i looked at the unhappiness that was in my parents' marriage, i said, i can't do that.'" if cynthia rowe, 43, a los angeles* area store manager and divorcé, gets depressed, she thinks of her five closest girlfriends. "they are all just existing in their marriages," she says. "two of them got married when they were young. twenty years later, they had outgrown each other. one has not got over her husband's affair. two friends aren't even sleeping in the same bedroom with their husband anymore. their personal happiness is placed last, and their kids know they are miserable."

some women, of course, have learned from their own life. "at 28, i was terrified of the world," says mary lou parsons, a raleigh, n.c., professional fund raiser, recalling her 1980 divorce. "i'd been raised a southern woman, sheltered and protected by my family, then by my husband." in the ensuing 20 years she learned to raise her kids on her own--and how to start her own business, buy a town house, move to alaska and back and, most of all, relish life on her own. "i had to get beyond that thinking in a lot of women's minds that aloneness is not o.k. but now i find solitude exhilarating." marcelle clements, author of the improvised woman: single women reinventing the single life, notes that there are many women, like parsons, who were "taken by surprise. they were in relationships that broke up, hit what they thought was catastrophe, only to find that they were o.k., and [they] adopt an attitude that said, i'm fine, i don't need to be with anyone else."

not surprisingly, many conservatives are disturbed at this growing acceptance of singlehood and its implied rejection of marriage. danielle crittenden, author of what our mothers didn't tell us, argues that women have set themselves up for disappointment, putting off marriage until their 30s only to find themselves unskilled in the art of compatibility and surrounded by male peers looking over their chardonnays at women in their 20s. "modern people approach marriage like it's a bosnia-serbia negotiation. marriage is no longer as attractive to men," she says. "no one's telling college girls it's easier to have kids in your 20s than in your 30s."

women who have chosen the single life sometimes have their own qualms. singlehood does not yield itself to a simple, blithe embrace. it's complicated, messy terrain because not needing a man is not the same as not wanting one. for all the laughs on sex and the city, one can feel the ache that comes when yet another episode ends with the heart still a lonely hunter. and if you think being a single woman is all fun and games, just listen to star parker, who is married to actor matthew broderick. even as she's become a mascot for the feisty new single woman, parker says she often stands on the set in her spike jimmy choo open-toes and see-through shirts, worried that she isn't being a good traditional wife. "i know he doesn't have his laundry done, that he hasn't had a hot meal in days," she says of her husband. "that stuff weighs on my mind." parker regales single friends with tales of how boring married life is and how much luckier they are to have freedom and fun. does she really believe it? "well, no," she admits. "it's just a fun thing to say to make single people feel better."

even women who generally reflect on their choices with assurance find themselves sometimes in the valley of what-ifs: what if i made the wrong choice to walk away? what if singlehood turns out to be not a temporary choice but an enforced state? "my sister knows that i'm good for a call every couple of months just crying, what's wrong with me?'" says henneberry. "i'm not willing to accept someone who's going to make me unhappy. but there are days when i have a physical need to go to sleep and wake up with someone there." mary mayotte, 49, has a successful bicoastal career as a public-speaking coach. but she admits the occasional pang of regret. "there was a point where i had men coming out of my ears," she says. "i don't think i was so nice to some of them. every now and then i wonder if god is punishing me. sometimes i look back and say, i wish i had made a different decision there.'"

some feel women are on an impossible search for the perfect man, the one who not only makes you feel, as julia roberts said of meeting benjamin bratt, "hit in the head with a bat," but also better for it. "marriage is not what it used to be, getting stability or economic help," says the national marriage project's whitehead. "marriage has become this spiritualized thing, with labels like best friend' and soul mate'" some sociologists say these lofty standards make sense at a time when the high divorce rate hisses in the background like darth vader. but others suggest the marriage pendulum has swung from the hollowly pragmatic to an unhealthy romantic ideal.

michael broder, a philadelphia psychotherapist and author of the art of living single, decries what he calls the "perfect-person problem," in which women refuse to engage unless they're immediately taken with a man, failing to give a relationship a chance to develop. "few women can't tell you about someone they turned down, and i'm not talking about some grotesque monster," he says. "but there's the idea that there has to be this great degree of passion to get involved, which isn't always functional. so you have people saying things like, if i can't have my soul mate, i'd rather be alone.' and after that, i say, well, you got your second choice.'"

single women are used to hearing this complaint, and most don't buy it. "some in my family think i'm not stopping till i find perfection," says henneberry. "i don't feel like that. i just want the one who makes me go, finally.'" harvard sociologist carol gilligan notes, "there's now a pressure to create relationships that both men and women want to be in, and that's great. this is revolutionary." even ellen fein, co-author of the notorious 1996 dating guide the rules, says her man-chasing disciples don't settle for just anyone. "most of my clients have jobs; they can pay the rent; they can take themselves out to dinner," says fein. "they want men to value them." many women can tell the story of a friend or relative who looked at her and said, "if you really wanted to be married, you'd be married." the comment can sometimes slap like a wet towel, in part because it is true and in part because of its implicit message: you could have compromised, perhaps settled, and been among the married. and so, the logic follows, you have no one to blame but yourself.

but these women have fought for years to be themselves--self-reliant, successful, clever, funny, willful, spirited--and for all the angst that the single life can bring, they're not willing to give it up for any arrangement that would stifle them. "it would be great if i found a relationship that allowed me to be as i am and added something to that," says documentary producer pam wolfe, 33, sitting in her one-bedroom condo in new york city. "but i'm not going to do anything to attract a person that means changing. i've worked long and hard to be myself."

--with reporting by tammerlin drummond/new york, elizabeth kaufman/nashville, anne moffett/washington, jacqueline savaiano/los angeles and maggie sieger/chicago