View Full Version : American Women
Select "Add New Message" to post a message.
Sinanju Master
05-21-02, 03:49
American Women's acronym
G reedy
R ude
O bnoxious
A rrogant
N arcissistic
form Roget's Thesaurus (or at least it SHOULD BE)
noun: an extremely selfish creature that demands that the world (and all YOUR possessions) be laid at her feet without ANY thought whatsoever of reciprocation.
The American Woman is a monster that the American Man CREATED!!
Hey guys... here's a good website to check out...
http://www.heartless-*itches.com
(... replace the "*" with a "b" in the above address)
If you weed through the trash (and the Nazi's) there are some very valid complaints/comments being made.
For the new readers here: Go through the "Old Forum" on this topic... there's lots of good posts there.
Blame yourselves guys! American women are so nasty, fat, saggy, obese, not taking care of themselves.... all these have to do with the guys! American men make them so. Why? The bad attitude, the lack of taking care of oneself, the "endowment mentality" does not exist in vacumn. It is through ages of reinforcement, encouragement, pampering, from girlhood to womanhood. Everytime you take a fat woman out, everytime you let your woman cheat your money, everytime you wine and dine a woman and did not get laid, everytime you pamper her without a reward of love.........the monster is not created overnight. So, guys, blame yourself, not the women.
Sinanju Master
05-31-02, 00:30
nofatso, yer right.... to a point. A lot of it can be attributed to the guy attempting to show interest without trying to be an uncouth beast. HE plays by rules that do not try to create an unfair advantage as women do 99.9% of the time. In such a case, the guy tries to meet her halfway and assumes (NEVER assume... spell the word and find out why!) that his attempts to act like a genuine gentleman will be eventually rewarded. NOT SO! American Women have a different agenda and will use a man without so much as blinking an eye. All this occurs while the man thinks he is building a rapport between them. I have NEVER ONCE known a woman (through MY experiences or those of others I've talked to) who has had the class to tell a guy up front that she is not intetested in a manner that would set her apart (class) from other women. Instead, she will willingly mislead the guy into believing that there is the hint of a spark while she encourages him to waste time and money on a classless sow. All the time while she is with HIM wasting his resources and leading him on, she is scanning the field for someone that she REALLY wants to be with. It took me quite a while to clear away the fog and catch onto this, but better LATE than NEVER. In my travels overseas, I more often than not, have come across women who are textbook examples of class. They don't act like leeches in search of a guy to bleed dry. American women are an overhyped, overvalued, underperforming, tired product that are outclassed every day of the year by women from other shores. The cunts from Heartlessbitches.com will flay me alive for what I have said, but why should I listen to those who only PRETEND to listen to both sides of the story? 'Nuf said!
Totally agree with your comment. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Problem is, most of us (i.e. guys) are living in dream land. I personally know two guys, yes two, who incurred a credit card debt of $5,000 and $10,000 respectively from their g/f who later broke up with them and refused to pay up. Both are genuinely nice honorable gentlemen but they have no clue when it comes to dealing with women. All along, they told me "how proud they are that in America, women are treated equal and fair." Equal and Fair? Do you call this equal and fair? So, American guys have no clue and they are doomed before the game even begins.
As to foreign women. I don't know if your observation is accurate. You are probably treated much better by these foreign women than they treat their average compatriots. Many reasons, the exotic effect you have over them, the "walking dollar sign" effect, the "American passport" effect, the"ticket out of hell hole" effect, all these combined will ensure you receive much better treatment than an average Joe in their country. Just imagine Tom Cruise in America, do you think many American women will dare to play Tom Cruise? Nicole Kidman tried but Cruise divorced her one day before California would define their marriage as a perpetual deal. So everything is relative.
..Having lived in Mexico for almost 2 years now I can safely say that basically women are women. It's just that American women have much higher standards. They've been taught to look for perfection while Mexican women are just happy with a good provider who doesn't smack them around or get drunk.
... in the USA women are taught now to be independent and aggressive, but they are still conditioned to be "feminine and passive". So, They want (and expect) the best of both worlds. They rightfully want to make the same pay as a man, but then they also want the man to assume all of the financial responsibilities of a relationship. Men put up with it because they want to get laid, but I've noticed more and more American men getting fed up and going international to look for women.
As men, though, we need to realize that we've created this monster. We need to stop feeding a culture that only judges women by their looks. Because, as long as we look for tits and asses, the women will look for wallets and sportscars. Superficiality breeds superficiality.
The women need to realize that they can't play both sides (maybe they can, but they shouldn't). They can't be as superficial as a man and yet expect not to be treated the same way. They can't be equal in the workplace, pampered in the bedroom, equal in the living room, pampered in the restaurant, etc. This wears guys down. Many men are so confused that they don't even know how to act.
Of course, this is a generalization. I've always been lucky to be with women who are confident and sure of themselves. These women DO exist, but they are difficult to find. Most women, as well as men, are merely playing roles.
...either way, though, I'm glad to be living in Mexico.
Sinanju Master
06-01-02, 06:57
"As men, though, we need to realize that we've created this monster. We need to stop feeding a culture that only judges women by their looks. Because, as long as we look for tits and asses, the women will look for wallets and sportscars. Superficiality breeds superficiality."
Men did not "create" this "monster" as you call it. It is called Biology and men have "judged" women for their physical attributes since BEFORE the beginning of recorded time. ACCEPT IT! It is our natural role, but we don't adhere to it as steadfastly as our Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon ancestors did. Regrettably, another thing we don't do as our ancestors did is to exhibit a backbone and put our foot down in the presence of a woman. We, as Amercan men have been so castrated by the Feminist movement that we are conditioned to think that anything a male thinks as positive is oppressive to the advancement of women. Men will ALWAYS judge women by their physical attributes and women will ALWAYS judge men by their ability to provide.... to one degree or another. The "PROBLEM" between the sexes is MORE pervasive here in the US. Women want the metaphorical penis while retaining their feminine qualities. In other words, they want to "right" the alleged wrongs of 5 millenia of "men oppressing women". BUT... in a sense, men DID create this problem... they allowed women to walk all over them in their march to "equality". Equality to women means a woman's heel twisting in a man's back. The sooner we can see that, the better... Myself, I would never treat a woman like crap, BUT she had better know tha she will NEVER RULE ME.....
Guys, Equality of the Sexes is good and I support wholeheartedly. However, what we have here in the US is NOT equality of the sexes. The field is tilted toward the women and it is not equal. In our communities, workplaces what we have is not equality but a general favoritism toward the women. Case in point, in most jurisdiction, the court is always in favor of the women. In the workplace, it is much easier to lay off a non performing male employee than a female employee. It is just a reality. Back to men/women relationship. The scenario is not equal when we (men) accept the fact that:
1. Dating UFC (ugly fat chicks) is alright. We date UFC don't take of themselves as in dressing nicely, keeping fit and trim, nice hair and well groomed. As men continue to disguise this loser mentality with the "it's the heart, not the look".
2. Spend time and money on women who treat men as "good friend", "soul mate - no laid style". If you are one of those "hey, let's be friend" and getting no sex while keep spending money on her, that's not respecting women, that's not equality, that's just plain stupidity.
3. You are the sole breadwinner of the family, yet all the economic and family decision has to get her final approval. (I have friends who would forsake good career opportunity because their wives do not want to move to the city of the new employer).
Sinanju Master
06-01-02, 18:47
HIGH FIVE, nofatso! I swear, dude, you must be the part of my mind that speaks out whilst I'm asleep! Yes, all the s*** you stated is sadly true... What really makes me scratch my head is that a lot of the time, they expect us to blindly accept the lines they throw at us: "I just wanna be friends" and other similar BS that makes up the female arsenal of misspeak. After much reflection, I was able to see the mess for what it was and decided that the UFC (God, I LOVE that term! LOLOLOLOL) and other variants are actually AIDING me in weeding out the psychos, the liars, the BS artists and the users. It's like they have a large placard resting in front of them saying: "Lemon" or "Lying Skank User" or what have you. Keep up the good fight, nofatso!
sin....yes, it's true that men are driven by the visual. that doesn't mean, though, that we must act on our primal urges. if so, then we would be running around [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) women at will. the problem begins and ends with the fact that we teach and are taught that superficial aspects are most important. how many of the men who post messages about money-hungry, superficial women would be willing to give the plain-jane woman a second look. the majority want supermodels, but beautiful women have been taught by our culture to over value themselves because they have the stereotypical features of beauty. it's like if you had a car that you knew your neighbor wanted. wouldn't you hold out for more money if you knew that he would absolutely pay it? why should a woman be willing to settle for "less" (at least in her own mind) when she has been taught that she is much more valuable to men?
this takes me back to my original point. if a woman's entire value is the physical, then why is it wrong for her to judge us on the same superficial scale? sure it's wrong, but both sexes are wrong. it is not out natural role to be animals and hump the most fertile female. but it is a woman's natural role to seek a man who will be supportive. the problem is that there are about a million mixed signals out there. this is not a contest so there is no need to defeat the women.
women are experiencing growing pains as a gender and this, my friend is a monster that we did create because we held women as inferiors and took advantage of them for ages. so, in a sense, we are suffering for the injustices of our ancestors. the misanthropes of the world will become frustrated and use this to lash out at women. a civilized man will sit back, weed through the head cases, and find the female gems.
by the way, the real problem between the sexes is in the third world where women are only slightly more valuable than livestock. this may not be a problem for you because you would be at the top of the food chain, but would you want your daughter, sister, mother, etc. to be thought of in this way? the problem that you speak of is the one where women refuse to be kept down and treated as equipment. this may be difficult to hear because it's a lot easier to blame our own problems on the actions of others, but it's the truth. women are so difficult because we created a foul atmosphere for them and when they try to break out of it or when they respond with equally stupid actions, then we curse them. grow up.
"sinjumaster". Thank you for your kind remarks. You are being gracious. I am humbled by your comments.
"miller2k". I appreciate your discussion but I think you misunderstood most of the comments posted here. We are NOT talking about disrespecting women, we are NOT talking about putting women down, we are NOT talking about degrading women. We are talking about equality of the sexes and how, as men, we should manage OUR own behavior such that the playing field is LEVEL. Bottomline is, if you let women taking advantage of you, then you WILL BE taken advantage of. Just look around this board, I see so many postings that the guys are truly nice people who are willing to "fall in love" and give whatever money they have to the women. So, the pussy cats are the GUYS, they ARE the soft hearted ones. You talked about "ages of discrimination" and that men put "looks" above everything else. I would disagree with you.
1. "ages of discrimination" I can't comment on "ages" since I was not there ages ago. In my professional and personal life, I lead a life such that I respect women as co-equal. I hope you are not talking about monetary compensation like what they are talking about re: African Americans.
2. Putting "looks" above everything else. I don't see the evidence. Just look around you, most men are totally happy to marry a UFC or let their beauty queen (formerly) degraded to become UFC. Most men are happy to have a plain Jane and kowtow to her wimps. Personally, I only know ONE single guy who only date or marry a super model type woman. Fact is, many men are too happy to have a UFC as a g/f rather than go for the highest. So, the fact does not support your argument. So, men need to set a higher level of expectation from their women.
Now, let's ASSUME what you stated is true, that men are too anxious to go after supermodel types and neglected the "UFC with good hearts", the "smart plain Jane". What's wrong with that? If Joe Blow likes pretty women, women who take care of themselves, who dress nicely, well groomed, who eat right, exercise to keep fit and not degrade themselves to the level of UFC, that shows Joe Blow have a high level of expectation of himself, that he only chooses to date women who have high level of expectation of themselves. This is GOOD, this is how winners are made, leaders are created. Why do we have to settle for inferiority? Secondly, why do we have to assume a "good hearted" woman, a "smart" woman has to be UFC, plain Jane? This is as if to assume good healthy low fat food must be expensive and difficult to come by. In essence this is setting yourself a low expectation.
Also, "miller2k" your statement
"in the third world where women are only slightly more valuable than livestock".
What are you talking about? Is this your theory or factual observation? Now, honest to you, I have never been to all the countries in the third world. I have only visited Brazil, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, countries where there is a healthy, practical policy relating to commercial sex, I can only speak from my personal observation and experience. All of these countries, most sex workers got into business on their own volition and especially in Brazil, they are treated very nice. They drive expensive cars, live in upscale neigbourhood. I am NOT talking from a "dreamland". I know many of these girls and we are friends. I visited their houses and stayed part time with them. I hanged with them and their friends. I did not see them being treated as livestock. What are your talking about? I think you may want to be more specific and provide a factual, personal observation. Again, I have not visited all the third world countries and first hand observed the FACTs personally. However, beware of books/materials from the media which tend to exeggerate and report with a one sided incomplete view.
Sinanju Master
06-02-02, 15:54
miller2k, a retort to your post....
"How many of the men who post messages about money-hungry, superficial women would be willing to give the plain-Jane woman a second look."
You ASSUME (spell the word, please) that each and every one of us overlooks the Plain Jane. I know better than to do that. I've done "investigation" into a few Plain Janes to see whether or not they'd be worthy company. Since they were NOT supermodels, I'd determined that they'd have to develop themselves in ways that lazy, uptight supermodels feel they DON'T have to.
"Women are experiencing growing pains as a gender and this, my friend IS a monster that we DID create because we held women as inferiors and took advantage of them for ages."
This may be true to a point, but also figure that WOMEN are the guiding force in mating choices. WE have nothing to do with it. THEY are the ones who wield the power. We are just product on a shelf to them. The more the product, the more likely it will be chosen.
"A civilized man will sit back, weed through the head cases, and find the female gems"
That's what I'm doing nowadays, pal.
"The PROBLEM that YOU speak of is the one where women refuse to be kept down and treated as equipment."
Say, didn't I just address that in an aforementioned paragraph?
"Women are so difficult because WE created a foul atmosphere for them and when they try to break out of it or when they respond with equally stupid actions, then WE curse them. Grow up."
Yes, the courts, the workplace, the media and SOCIETY have all made the poor women an oppressed gender. I'll try to sympathize with that bullshit while I'm removing the heel that they're grinding in our backs in an effort to "right" the wrongs of millennia of oppression. I'd go further into the INEQUALITY between the sexes and what today's actions could turn into "tomorrow" but you'd find it unbelievable and you wouldn't be able to process it. miller2k until you find a voice of your own, go back to your mistress who pulls your strings and speaks for you.
nofatso....I have lived in Mexico for more than two years now and have lived in the heart of Mexican society, away from the more Westernized Tourist areas. I have seen first hand woman upon woman have her dreams denied merely because of the fact that they had the "misfortune" to be born female. The toy stores here are filled with toys for boy, but only a few dolls for girls. Why? I was told that girls don't need to be playing, they need to help their mothers. Many fathers don't send their daughters to school because "they will only be mothers and wives anyway". Now, once these women are older, they have no education or leverage in their relationship. They have babies, cook dinner, and keep their mouths shut. Take the time to ask the average housewife here about her life, it will almost always start out "well, I wanted to be a .... when I was a girl." Then it will end, "but then I got married." Even when they are in the workplace, they make less than half of what a man would make. The playing field is getting more even now, but a "professional" woman such as a doctor or a lawyer is still treated with contempt and, if she is married, is still expected to be a domestic slave in the home. Beatings among ALL women are considered part of a normal married life. And if she goes to the police? She will most likely hear what a neighbor of mine heard when she got fed up with the abuse and went to the authorities. The officer basically replied to her charge of abuse by saying "...well, what did you do? You need to go home and work things out with your husband. Maybe he had a bad day and you did something to get him angry." Is this what you want? Is this your idea of utopia?
I don't know who you've talked with, but the VAST majority of the prostitutes that I've come in contact are in this line of business out of necessity. I would say about 98% are "pros" for reasons ranging from: they have children to support (a single mother here is regarded as a pariah, someone to be avoided. And even when they do find a "normal" job, they can't support their family on what a woman makes.) to: they have a drug habit to support. How many normal women without a dire need for cash (especially in very religious countries) would be willing to choose "prostitute" as a career choice? Even if they now live in nice houses and drive nice cars, does that make them somehow less victimized? If it makes you feel better to think that they are doing the job because they like it, then that's fine. It's a tough pill to swallow when we realize that we are, at the very least, participating in another person's downward spiral. I've accepted this and try to act accordingly.
...also, you said :
"2. Putting "looks" above everything else. I don't see the evidence. " and then a few lines later you mention a "UFC", as you say, as being somehow degraded. If looks were not put above all else, then why would she be considered degraded in your eyes? You proved my point. Are you somehow less of a man than your neighbor because he has the nicer car or bigger house?
If a man wants to judge a woman, why is it wrong when a woman judges a man? Is it wrong because now YOU are the one being judged? Judging purely on physical attributes is not how WINNERS are made, it's how RACE HORSES are mated. Why is an overweight or "ugly" woman "inferior"? Are you inferior if you don't have 10 million dollars in the bank? Listen, to some extent, we all judge on appearance, but this should not be the PRIMARY factor in deciding our future relationships. This may seem to be off-topic, but it has everything to do with why modern American women can be so difficult--they are merely being as superficial to us as we are to them. Of course, this is not right, but we shouldn't whine about our poor selves when we do the same thing to them all the time, just in different forms.
Sin...the last paragraph of your previous post just points out how much of a misanthrope you are. Why is it that you think I'm being controlled by my "mistress" if I don't agree with your bitter rhetoric? Maybe you've had bad dealings with women and now you've rationalized it as "all their fault". Well, I've had bad dealings with women as well, but am I bitter? No. You need to look inside and figure out why you are so full of rage. The courts, workplace, media, etc. didn't make women into an opressed gender, backward thinking men like you did. I know that there's no reasoning with people like you (you probably also adhere to various other conspiracy theories such as the tri-lateral comission, Roswell, etc) because there are some people who will ALWAYS blame their own short-comings on others. Whatever allows you to sleep better at night.
Listen guys, we are all in the same boat. American women ARE difficult, but bitterness and hatred are not what is needed. We need to be grown ups and accept responsibility for what we've done (or participated in).
Sinanju Master
06-03-02, 07:39
miller2k, lemme break it down to you reeeeeeeal simple like. am i pissed at the doublespeak that american women engage in yet expect american men to crack like the code based on the navajo language in the second world war? yes. am i pissed at the stupid games they play (wasting a man's time and resources without so much as a single thought that they may be acting like the gold-digging leeches that give american women their well-deserved bad name) when all one is trying to do is to treat them with the respect that every human being deserves? yes. to go further on that note, i was taught by my folks to respect women. i actually do that, but a lot of american women do not deserve my respect, much less common courtesy. am i pissed that they [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) and moan and wish for things that are not within the realm of possibility (finding and marrying a single fabio lookalike who is a billionaire and slavishly dotes on her)? yes. pal, we live in a country where it is the accepted norm for society to bash men without fear of reprisal or an angry, justifiable retort. this society on the other side of the coin will fall all over themselves to help women by attempting to bring down men, with you in the lead. if they didn't enjoy being so devious and rep001hing and bragging about it to their girlfriends as if it were some profession in which they take great pride, i would have no problem with american women. however, i live in the real world. i cry dry tears for american women. as for laying blame, i'm all for calling it like i see it. besides, where did you see me absolve myself of any blame? you didn't. you ass-u-me... spell it again pal and maybe you'll get the message, but since i live in the real world, that would be asking too much.
Boy, PAL...the 'REAL WORLD" you live in is bitter, angry, and hateful. My REAL WORLD is full of positive encounters with women who appreciate being treated nicely without being expected to roll over and have sex for the price of a movie ticket and a dinner. Of course, I've had my fair share of negative experiences as well, but I guess I'm better equiped to handle these things. You fall apart and blame the world for your own lack of charm,sensitivity,etc.
"I was taught by my folks to respect women."
...Wow! You're folks would be so proud of you now.
If women have taken advantage of you, then accept your own culpability. If you take a woman out to dinner, lavish her with gifts and/or attention, but she never wants to take your relationship past friendship. She is wrong for leading you on, but you are also wrong because you only showed her 'RESPECT' because you wanted something in return (sex, affection, whatever)
Pal, lemme break it down to you REEEEEEEAL simple like: You are the type of person who will never be satisfied because you are rotten from the inside. Why would any self-respecting woman want to be involved with a man so full of loathing?
Yes, many women are awful, but how will your moaning about poor, ol' victimized you help the situation? You're just trying to affirm your own sad state, to justify your own failures ("it's not me, it's them). To use your own words: "Am I pissed that they [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) and moan and wish for things that are not within the realm of possibility?" Yes, you should be because you are the biggest pisser and moaner of them all.
Keep up with the self-pity and bitterness and I'll just be here hanging around and having a wonderful time...Happiness is the best revenge.
From: The Happiest Man Alive.
My response to the gentleman from mexico.
1. The LOOK thing. Statements about the "look" and my UFC illustrative, you are still writing from "impression" and "belief" and can't relate facts to support your points. If your contention is UFC is not politically correct, I grant you that and here on out, how about "alternatively looking lady with wide body shape (ALLWiBOS)"? :) OK, back to our dialects, your contention is men put look above everything thus they suffer from men/women relationship. I state to you that you are wrong because there is NO fact suporting your statement, your statement is pure hearsay. How to get the facts to substantiate this? Just look around you, your friends, your male relatives, male co-workers, go to a shopping mall, anywhere. Majority of men are dating or married to plain Jane or ALLWiBOS? Thus to say that men put look above all else is not supported by facts. NOW, if you say, most men WISH they have supermodel gf or wives. that I concur. However, here you are talking about WISH versus ACTUAL BEHAVIOR. Wish does not count, it's the behavior.
2. Sex workers are Demeaning and nobody wants to engage in that profession. My friend. First of all, I never stated that every sex workers are happy. Just like not every lawyer is happy, every physician is happy, every McDonald cashier is happy. The discussion began when you stated in your posting that women in third world are treated a little better than "livestock". I am contending your facts that this blanket statement must not be true because you are talking about ALL WOMEN IN THE ENTIRE THIRD WORLD. That's a huge generalization. Dialectically, this cannot be supported by facts and this is not logical. Now, since you brought up the "sad sex worker" scenario. You are right, all my amigas in Brasil wish to leave the profession and every time I ask them to leave the profession for other work they will tell me about the "necessity" story. The reality is, my friend, there are lots of jobs they can get that pay very little wages. However, they don't want to do it. You are too easy to be persuaded by their statement of "necessity". The truth is, there are lots of single mother who toil in low paying jobs and support their kids. So, THIS IS A VOLUNTARY CHOICE they made. Many of them are happy doing it since the money is great, life is easy and many love sex! Would they want to leave the profession if money is not an issue? Yes! Hey... I have a good career and I love my job, but if money is not an issue, you bet I will quit tomorrow and move down to Rio de Janeiro :)
My gentleman friend. I do respect you a lot. You seem to have the heart and the kindness. I like that. However, I suggest that you tend to view thing in black and white terms and put in too much wishful thinking w/o verifying that with facts of reality which is almost always in spectrum of greys.
mr sinjumaster. You stated the truth. Behold!!
Again, Mr. Miller2k twisted your statement to fit his gentle theory. What you are stating is a simple fact; if a guy takes a woman out for dinner, movie, whatever because he has romantic or sexual interest in her. It is just ethically correct for the woman to let the guy know in no uncertain terms on the second or even first date whether his interest will be reciprocated. Simple as that. What Mr. sinjumaster stated is a common phenonmenon that many women, even they have no romantic or sexual interest in the guy, they still string him along for freebies. I have had women sharing with me stories that they "like" the guy "as friends but I can't imagine sleeping with him or see him as a b/f". So, I said to these women, "wait a minute, you know the guys is interested in you romantically and sexually and you also know you are not interested in him. So why not tell him point blank?" The women's point is "well, may be we can develop something in the future but in the mean time, I like his company. May be he is just interested in me as a friend" I said, "yeah, if a guy wants bonding, he calls his buddies. Also, when is the last time you find some "friends" developed into a "laid" (fat....Oops I meant Wide Body chance). Furthermore, you like his company ONLY when you have no other dates and ONLY when you are so bored and even then, you are not giving him sex." So, sinjumaster. You spoke the truth.
Sinanju Master
06-03-02, 14:44
nofatso, how is it that you can understand with crystal clarity what I was saying, but miller2k (He's had far too many Millers) twists what I said more than any pretzel could be twisted? He will ASS-U-ME (miller2k, you made an ASS out of U not ME) that from a couple of posts that he knows me in my entirety. But alas, I was hoping that after my initial anger (perhaps I responded too quickly, but American women are a button pusher) that he would be able to provide intelligent debate supported by the facts that you, nofatso, called his bluff on. In fact, I'm wasting my breath even further discussing this idiot who refuses to acknowledge that American women are guilty of the bs I charged them with and that you reinforced through your post. Keep up the good work nofatso.
Thanks sinjumaster. Me too, I am tired to continue with this discussion. Afterall, we are trying to offer "the light, the truth, the salvation" such that nobody got hurt by buying into all these little trickeries. I had a woman friend (we only slept together from time to time and not dating) who told me that women can be more dangerous than men since when men are "evil", they knew that. They knew they are doing "evil", as in cheating on a spouse, being a player etc. However, she said, when a woman is being evil, she does not know that. She is being so successful to internalize the entire "evil" act as good, honesty, nice. They said the best liar is those who truly believe, live the lie. Thus, we keep having these "good friends", "necessity" and most men buy this :)
Anyway, as I said, case close. Let's go back to hunting and "heaven on heart" issues. Have a good day!
just a couple of more things and then you can go about your bitter "realities" in peace.
Nofat...you are a reasonable person, but YOU are the one making broad generalizations. You assume (ASS-U-ME, as sin would say) that the generalizations you make are correct , (but mine aren't) solely because you WANT for them to be true. Listen, there is no way to proven ANYTHING beyond a shadow of a doubt so we go on what we see and experience. I've experienced a lot and I've formulated opinions based on those observations. If you put filters over your eyes, you will only see what you want to see.
Your example of men who are married to "normal"women is true. But are they married to these women because of true desire and appreciation...or is it because they've "settled for less" (as you say)? If it's the latter, then they will never be really happy. Their lack of happiness is due to the fact that they have been tricked into believing the commercials on TV and the ads in the magazines.
"women don't know when they're being evil?" C'mon, nofat...that is just borderline sociopathic. What will you say next: "Women are animals, 3/4 of a human being?" You're more intelligent than that.
Sin...no amount of "facts" could persuade you to stop "pissing and moaning". Opinions are just that...opinions. If you choose to dwell in your own dark heart, then have a ball.
What you've both failed to realize is that I've said in every one of my posts that women are guilty as well as the men. But you refuse to acknowledge that because you feel more comfortable putting ALL the blame on women. I would've gone on about how women are fucked-up as well, but that opinion was well represented already and I wanted to point out that we have responsibility in the matter as well. Over the last few days, you've proven all of my theories to be correct.
This is over if you wish because you don't want to hear the truth...the WHOLE TRUTH. I'm wasting my time trying to have a discussion with people who are only interested in dwelling in their own misery. I'll send you a box of Kleenex and a blow-up doll so you can be happy.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nofatso
ALL WOMEN IN THE ENTIRE THIRD WORLD. That's a huge generalization. Dialectically, this cannot be supported by facts and this is not logical.
I am surprised to see a discussion about woman in Third World in the forum of topic about american woman. Moreover Friends some people (in USA) do not know what is third world. The third world is called most of the Asia (leave some advanced countries like Japan) and Africa. For Americans who has born in America & Grown up in America it is impossible to understand the realities of third world. In most of the muslim countouries - woman can be thrown out of home with three time reciting Talak - Talak - Talak (Divorce Divorce Divorce), no court, no judge and compensation as agreed at the time of marriage. Some countouries determining sex before birth is banned legally becuase people will kill the duaghter before birth. The daughter are sold for a mere 2 USD or 5 USD. Mostly no education for girls & no good food. That is a real shame and the condition of woman - mostly in third world. So this generalised statement is actually a fact in Third world.
To miller2k, nofatso, sinanjumaster:
I just wanted to say I love this debate between all of you. I feel that you all have valid points. As far as some of you disagreeing with each other on certain points I think that's cool. Not everybody will see eye to eye on the issue of American women. I'm writing because I want to put my two cents in on this debate.
I was the guy that posted:
"The American woman is a monster created by the American man."
I forget if I worded it exactly like that but you get the point.
What I wanted to do is further explain what I meant by that. Some of you brought up the point of women using men in the dating arena, etc. That kind of goes with my statement above. In my opinion the American man has made American women this way by catering to their every whim. I once read an article talking about how in all of the wealthiest societies throughout history, the richer a society became the more it catered to it's women. And I would like to add the more spoiled they became too.
The best way for me to explain it is like this: In my mind, women are a lot like children. If you are raising a child that you let play and have fun but you set some ground rules on what you will accept as far as the child's behavior, then that child will more than likely grow up to love and respect you because you let them have fun but you also set some code of disclipline up for them to abide by.
On the other hand, let's say you have a child and you let them do what they want to do all the time. Anything they want, you give it to them. One day you come to find the child drinking rubbing alcohol and you try to stop him. The child is going to have a fit, because you won't let him drink the rubbing alcohol, even though you are trying to save the child. The child is so used to getting waht they want that they will get mad because you won't let him drink the rubbing alcohol, even though you are trying to protect him.
In this example what I'm trying to show is that in a way that is what has happened to women in this country. Our society has catered to women , mainly because of the feminist drive, as a way to apologize for all of these years of oppression. Now men just bend over and give women what ever they want. A monster has been created to the point that even when a man is trying to help or protect a woman, she doesn't want to hear it. She wants to do what she wants to do.
Basically what I'm saying is that American women have been socially conditioned to be this way. Just like the women of Brazil have been socially conditioned to be the way they are. In my dealings a lot of people think that I'm real hard on women. It makes me laugh because I feel that I'm normal and that a lot of men are too far the other way. They allow women to do a lot of the things that they do. I once told a friend, that was telling me some of his women problems, that I hold women up to the same moral code that I hold men to. He said he didn't agree with that because a woman can give you p-ssy, but a man can't. My reply was that was the main reason I did it.
What I'm trying to say is that when men cater to women just because they're women you create a selfish monster that will use you as a means to an end. And the ironic part is that women are so unhappy by this themselves. Because I travel I notice how it's a lot of unhappy women in America, especially some of these women who just use men. Notice how some of the gold-diggers, and real materialistic women act. Do you notice that you don't really see many happy gold-digger type women, even the ones that have succeeded in their goals? Psychologically there are many reasons for this which it would take forever for me explain.
The MAIN point that I'm trying to get at is that, there are some good women in America who see exactly what the men see, but they probably make up a very, very small percent of the general population. Unfortunately, I have to say that I have given up on American women. I presently live in this country for purely economic reasons: America holds exceptional opportunities for jobs and education. As far my as my life with women I only deal with girls in Brazil. I feel they match me better. I feel that it actually helps me stay focused on my job, career and college by knowing that there are some real normal women out there but they just happen to not live in this country.
Sinanju Master
06-04-02, 16:38
Phil, my bad for not probing your mind and further questioning you to clarify your point. You hit the nail on the god-damn head with pinpoint accuracy in every point you made in this most recent post. I'm sure there are a FEW good American women out there, but they are as rare as the dodo bird, and I will NOT budge in my opinion on THAT. I gotta admit though that reading you elaborate further on your point was like reading the freshly inscribed stone tablets from Sinai! LOL Yes, I will concede 100% that in that respect, it is OUR fault for the social conditioning of American women today. What I was trying to communicate to miller2k (although I didn't do that very effectively since I posted once or twice before I thought it through) was that I follwed the rules of not acting like a neanderthal and metaphorically knocking a woman over the head, dragging her back to my cave and demanding sex. So many times in the past, I did as instructed by the parental units and acted the part of the gentleman but the spoiled behavior made that a moot point. That can be extremely frustrating, especially whe they (American women) will give you NO CLUE to help you out. Contrast that to when I have gone overseas numerous times not even looking for sex or even hinting at the promise of being a woman's "ticket outta here", and I would encounter women who were so classy that it made them seem that they were a totally different species from American women. So, now that I was able to better convey what I was trying to say, and admitting that I should have thought before I spoke, no hard feelings, miller2k.
phil
regarding your statement " that I hold women up to the same moral code that I hold men to". I understand your true meaning. However, be very careful. In this politically correct world, people of evil mind can hurt you with statements like that.
In fact, when it comes to dealing with ALLWiBOS (bear in mind that UFC is wrong and I plead guilty), you have to proceed with extreme caution. The MO is, smile, be exceedingly polite, speak in "value neutral language" and most importantly, create an impression that you are part of the feminist, liberal movement (doesn't hurt to tell everybody that you voted for Gore).
I had this personal experience which was truly awakening. I work in a major corporation. About a year ago, I had a secretary assigned to me who was truly a lousy performer. In addition to a poor performer, she came in late, called in sick all the time and I caught her sleeping on the job twice! So, I called HR seeking a replacement. HR told me that I have to be extremely careful when it comes to situation like this. The HR officer, who is a woman, provided detailed strategy as how I could get rid of her. Without going into details, the bottomline is, when I caught her sleeping on the job again, I quietly get another FEMALE colleague to personally verified the sleeping beauty, I documented the time and date and the duration of her sleep...... so every of her violation I get witness, not any witness but FEMALE witnesses. After about a monthy's wrangling, my secretary was finally fired but only after our company paid her one month's severance. Yes, I know, you will say this is amazing, I could have called her in and said, "You are a poor performer, we pay you well and you didn't do your job. You don't give a professional presentation. You come in with jeans and T shirt, hair messed up, cigarette stains on your fingers. By the way, god damn it, cut off that cheetohs and loose that 50lbs." No NO NO, can't say that. This is the world of political correctness, the world of "value neutral" where UFC is named ALLWiBOS or "NORMAL". So, you got to play the game.
Phil...you're dead right about almost everything you said, although I would disagree about the analogy with the child. This implies that women are somehow less wise or less savy than men. (I've found that to be almost the opposite). The real problem is that women often make unreasonable demands and the men, in their hurry to "close the deal" are too eager to give in. This is the reason we are left frustrated. Women have always had the upper hand when it comes to choosing who to be with...that's normal and reasonable. The problem is with us because we don't clearly state up front what we want. There are always the "lets just be friends" girls who will soak up all the attention and money, taking advantage of a man's feelings. But for every woman like that, there's a man who sits back and allows it to happen. Men need to be responsible for their own actions by stating up front, after the first date "I want a romantic relationship..how about you?" This is done in Mexico: The man has to "declare" his feelings for the woman and then he knows right off the bat what he's in for. My point all along was that women have their own reasons for acting the way they do and that we should just worry about ourselves and cleaning up our own acts instead of crying about the "evil" American woman.
Sin...No hard feelings. We are in the same boat. I was merely being the Devil's Advocate, trying to point out our own culpability in the matter.
Nofatso--I understand your frustration. I worked in corporate America awhile too. But what you need to remember is that those stupid details were put there for a reason (it's been blown out of proportion, though). There was a time when a woman was indeed told to lose a few pounds or lose her job...or to sleep with the boss if she wanted to keep working there. These are facts. These crazy PC laws are there to make sure that these attrocities never happen again. Sure, women take advantage of them all the time, but until we can think of a nice middle-ground, they could very well be necessary. There is some truth in the "PC" aspect, though. People SHOULD be judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin, the size of their ass, etc. Sure, things get out of hand sometimes. But once again, I'd rather play the PC system than go back to the days before woman's rights, civil rights, etc. The only "game" being played is the one of RESPECT.
So, I love a good fight, but I think that we're all pretty much on the same side on this issue....
"People SHOULD be judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin, the size of their ass, etc."
A friend of mine complained I am being harsh on overweight folks. He said, "Hey, you don't know, my genes did it to me. I can't change" I laughed and responded, "NO, your genes did not do it to you. Cheetohs did it to you, KFC did it to you, Super Big Meal did it to you, "Super Size" did it to you. Chulapa did it to you....."
We judge people by their content of character. Best benchmarking of character is by looking at the person's behavior. Weight is manifestation of years of behavior pattern. Reports from US Surgeon General and US Dept. of Health state that weight is a bahavior issue. Thus unlike skin, race, sexual orientation which is a born trait, weight is a behavior trait.
Now, why weight is a good reflection of one's character? Weight management involves only two issues. Diet and modest amount of exercise. Diet, keeping a good diet requires good pattern of healthy habits, good discipline of maintaining a balance diet. Exercise, modest amount of exercise, as in walking, light weight lifting, playing balls etc. requires some personal discipline, time management and motivation. If a person is overweight. This is a protracted results of laziness, undiscipline, gluttony. When people say, please look beyond the weight and see the person's heart. I say, "no need, his/her heart is already there in front of you. Just judge the behavior"
To put weight in the same category of race, gender, sexual orientation bias is mimimize the civil rights movement. Yeah. I bet MLK fought for our right to sit around, get fat and stuffing chalupa to get to the Jumbo Size Shape. :)
nofatso..who says that everyone has to adhere to YOUR idea of what's right and proper? What if someone decides that they don't WANT to eat fruits and vegetables or exercise (not that they are lazy, but they are exercising their freedom to be indviduals)? If someone doesn't want to be exactly how you want them to be, does that mean that they are lazy and worthless?...or does that mean that they are merely making a life choice? Of course, you're also free to make idiotic generalizations. (religion is also a personal choice rather than a biological..are Jews bad people just because you might be Christian..wait, don't answer that..I don't want to know). Being overweight is a behavioral problem with its roots in genetics. Similar to alcoholism, a person is pre-disposed to that certain behavior. Of course that doesn't mean that the person HAS TO over eat. Also, It's clear that a having a healthier diet and life style is better for you physically. You most likely will live a longer, healthier life if you are in better shape. But if a person chooses to live a certain way and it doesn't hurt you in any way, then why all the condemnation?
Prejudice against fat people is the last refuge of the racist. The only acceptable prejudice now is against fat people, but it's EXACTLY the same as other forms of prejudice. It's the judging of a group of people based solely on appearance. "Fat people are lazy because they don't exercise" is like saying "Black people are lazy criminals". It's making a broad generalization based entirely on appearance. You assume that a person who looks a certain way MUST act a certain way--That's so judgemental that it's ridiculous. Not wanting to lift weights has nothing to do with other types of work. I'm overweight myself and I routinely put in 16 hour days, working double of what the slimmer people did. Even now, when I should be relaxing in Mexico, I put in 12 hour days during the week and most weekends I'm travelling to smaller towns to volunteer with orphans. Sure I eat a lot, but I enjoy it. Sure, I have sex a lot, but I also enjoy that. I don't judge people solely on their appearance (people with glasses are NOT necessarily smarter, blondes are NOT necessarily less intelligent, etc). It's the sign of a small intellect to think that EVERYONE must have the exact same set of standards. I like the fact that others have different values. The world is a beautiful place BECAUSE we are so different...
miller2k
You still FAILED to address the FACT that race is a born trait and fat is a result of a protracted behavior trait. Being "black" is born, genetic. Being "fat" ....you truly need years of entrenched behavior to get to that sorry level. So, your lumping fat with race is false. By the way, black people, provided they are not fat, are pretty and attractive, whereas most fat people (except a minority few) are ugly. Thus most SW (sex workers) are fit and trim and fat SW usually see their pricing drop by more than half. Market pricing rules!!
As to your reference that "hey, I have a right to do what I want and I want to be fat.... so what?" Just like what if I choose to be messy, to be lazy, to go on welfare and become a burden of the society, to do drugs, to get heart attack, to get diebetis. Yes, so what? As I libertarian, I would say that's none of my biz and it won't borther me a bit (except my tax $ is wasted on these people...but there are lots of injustice around so I am not going to worry about this). However, if you say as an employer, is it right to judge a person who is fat/overweight knowing that he/she has all the bad behavior traits? You bet. I am paying $ to hire a person and I want to know that this person has a high level of expectation of performance. This is NOT discrmination but have discrminating standards.
The Fat community has been trying to lump their cause with the gay/race issue. It's not sticking because everybody knows that being fat is unhealthy, unethical just like nobody wants to be perceived as lazy, gluttony. Thus weight reduction is a $3billion business here in the U.S.
Now, it is alright for you to continue to claim being discriminated while at the same time keep sitting around with a sedate lifestyle and stuffing fat into your system. That's your life choice. Just that you will continue to fight this so called "discrimination" of yours for the rest of your life and even many fat people do not buy your cause.
once again, in the tradition of so many bigots, you refuse to see the forest for the trees. You make broad, sweeping generalizations based on appearance. I'm not seeking any special treatment, nor would I accept any, but to be perceived as "inferior" or less than valuable as a person, is just wrong...and unconstitutional. Maybe the health/fitness industry is so big because of the way insecure tyrant wannabe's like you want everyone with a few extra pounds to feel like they are committing the greatest sin of all time. Hatred is hatred, bigotry is bigotry..show me someone who hates and judges a group of people for no reason other than appearence and I'll show you someone who hates MANY groups of people. And why is being fat unethical? That's just plain silly. Ethics has to do with what's in your heart and soul, not with what's around your belly. The REAL issue around here is WHY exactly are you so full of rage against a particular group of people? I don't neccesarily care, but you should. It's not healthy to carry around all the rage. If some day I get REALLY overweight and die of a heart attack, why does that affect you? I have my own money that I WORKED for and I can support myself...why do you even care? You're a hateful person and hatred is a lot more dangerous than fat, but I wouldn't deny your right to live as you see fit.
Prejudice is Prejudice...Judging people solely by appearance is wrong. If I said "People who work out are dull, because they spend all their time in a gym"...that would be wrong, stupid, and ignorant. Why? Because I'm associating two behaviors that don't necessarily have anything to do with eachother.
And, by the way, to assume that I have a sedate lifestyle shows your ignorance. You don't know me, you've never seen me...what makes you SOOOOOOO intelligent? Do you believe that ALL must act and think the same as you? Wow...you must be perfect! I would compare my lifestyle to yours anyday and we can see just how "Sedate" my lifestyle is.
It's no wonder that you have problems with women...You must have a sad, sad life...
With regards to the whole race v.s Behavior debate. Forget about the other person...YOU are responsible for your OWN actions. What if you say "I won't hire Catholics (or any other group of people) because they are stupid."? Is that right? Are you judging an individual based on your OWN set of morals? Is it correct to assume that all people who look a certain way must act in a certain way? If you say "I won't hire that woman because she's fat," you're making a moral judgement based ENTIRELY on appearance. How is that different from saying that blacks are lazy, Polish people are stupid, gays are perverts, etc.? Forget about the person you are judging and how they became "different", you are ASSUMING that ALL people who look a certain way MUST have the same characteristics. That's the EXACT SAME thinking that forced blacks to the back of the bus. Stop hiding behind semantics and face your sad, pathetic bigotries. There is NO justification for bigots, racists, and small-minded fools....
miller2k
:)
wow, you are really angry now. Interesting. Emotions and Labeling aside, I think you have just concurred with me that fat is a behavior trait. A trait developed over years and years of bad behavior. Now that we settled this fundamental point, the remaining two questions are "I want to be fat, so what?" and "fat people are being discriminated like the blacks and all other minorities...."
I want to be fat so what? Unbeknownst to you, we have settled this too. As I said, you can do whatever you like and that's none of my business.
Fat people are discriminated like the blacks. NOoooo. Again, you tried to lump yourself with the "I am black too" to achieve the coat tail effect. Problem is, the rest of the society doesn't buy this since we already accepted fat is a behavior trait. Even the fat community does not buy this line. They know fat is a choice whereas being black is a born trait. You are certainly free to make the choice but like any choice you make in life, the rest of the society will hold you accountable to the choice you made.
Last time I checked, there was DWB (driving while black) but we don't have DWF (not divorce white females :).
Now, as to your labeling of "hate" "bigots". This is so typical of left wing ideology that every time when we hold people accountable to their behavior they call it "bigot" "hate". What they want is value neutral so that the rest of society has to adjust to them, to make provision for them, to accommodate them, special treatment. So, some fatso is suing the airlines that the seats are too small and that the airlines could not grant him two seats for the price of one. So, my company's health insurance premium is up because a couple of fatso got heart bypass surgery and since the fatso is in a group plan, MY health insurance goes up. That's OK with me. I don't mind to help out a fellow co-worker for the bad choice he made in his life but to lump fat as a civil right issue? Not sticking my friend.
Now, you can keep getting emotional but you can't deny the facts. :)
Let me note that fat is *usually* based *mostly* on behavior. There are exceptions however ... I will note two.
1) My mother. If she eats 1500 calories a day, she just breaks even (she is approximately 5'5" and 220 lbs).
2) There was a special on TV (I think it was on "Aqui y Ahora" on Univision) about a man who ran and biked marathons, and yet who would still be considered about 100 lbs over weight.
My point isn't that behavior doesn't effect weight, but rather, that weight is not *totally* dictated by behavior.
For that matter, even if it is, who are we to criticize their behavior. Sure I might not be attracted to a heavier woman, but I don't have the right to say she's lazy ... I just don't know.
Smiles,
David
P.S. Miller2k, I'm with you all the way.
David.
The attached link from US Surgeon General report provides a glance of fat in America with major causes identified as BEHAVIOR patterns.
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_glance.htm
"the rest of the society doesn't buy this since we already accepted fat is a behavior trait."
...Whoah, Einstein, who is "we"? When did you overthrow the United Nations and become dictator of the world? Does the "we" refer to your own little group of pseudo-Aryans? Or does the "we" refer to the voices in your head?
Whatever the case, sure as hell I'm emotional because you're making a blanket statement about EVERYBODY who is overweight. You don't even know me. How would you feel if I said that all prejudiced people were gay...would you feel that I'm making an unfair generalization about you?
I'm NOT left wing...so there's another one of your generalizations that can be discounted. I don't agree that airlines should be forced to sell two seats for one or make larger seats to accomodate people. That's silly. I want EQUAL treatment for ALL people. That means that it's not right to give fat people (or any other group of people, although white males have received special treatment for centuries) preferred treatment, but it's also not right that a person can be denied the right to support his or her family just because some moron thinks that they're a little on the chunky side. Where the hell did you learn your morals? Is it okay to deny someone the opportunity to make a living just because they don't adhere to how you think all people should be?
The whole concept of "civil rights" is that you are judged on your abilities not on your apperance.
"Now, you can keep getting emotional but you can't deny the facts. "
...Facts? Now when exactly did you provide any facts? Your case is as follows: "In my OPINION, ALL fat people are lazy. I THINK that they have sedate lifestyles. I FEEL that they want special treatment, etc" These are all opinions. Do you know ALL the fat people in the world? Half of them? One third? One percent? One millionth of one percent? Unless you have first hand knowledge of what you are talking about, being so eager to discriminate is insane. The desire to hop on an exer-cycle does not transfer over to the desire to work. I know people who are in top shape who are lazy as hell. Just because YOU are closed-minded and bitter, that doesn't mean that you can't do your job very well. I'm sure you do a good job at work. So, one particular defect doesn't necessarily transfer to other aspects of life. And, yes, I do consider it a defect. But does that mean that an extra Twinkie now and then proves that I'm lazy?
I know that I will never convince you because bigotry in all forms is basically irrational. So, I'm wasting my time with you. I don't care how many links you provide, I KNOW that it's an unhealthy lifestyle...so is being a Pro Football player or a fighter jet pilot...but these are all choices. Maybe you don't agree with them, but who the hell are you? Who the hell are you to decide who can and can't be allowed to make a living? I think that you have some deeper issues to deal with and that all of these "facts" that you are providing are just a cover for a hatred you had all along. So, first you hate women, now fat people? who next? Let's hear the whole laundry list.
As for being lazy...people who make broad generalizations about a group of people are LAZY. You're LAZY because it's a lot easier to say that ALL of these people are this way or that way, instead of taking the time to judge every human being on the content of their character and the depth of their intellect...
To the rest of the board: I'll bet the you guys a nickel that he doesn't get this.
miller2k
:) calm down. calm down. You are going to get heart attack to be that emotional. OK, read this website and you should feel a lot better. OK? Don't be upset and emotional. This is just a discussion. At the end of the day, you continue your way and the world moves on. Nothing is changed, why get upset about it?
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_glance.htm
can't we all just get along?
nofatso,
I checked out the website you listed. However, I wasn't disagreeing with the Surgeon General.
I said "weight is not *totally* dictated by behavior. "
The Surgeon General said "For each individual, body weight is the result of a combination of genetic ... influences". (Genetic ones apparently ususually play a small role, but they do play a role, sometimes not so small).
Furthermore, I really like the presentation that website precisely because it *doesn't* evaluate fat people. It sticks to the facts, never once saying fat people are "unethical, lazy, or gluttonous". I agree that there are many very good reason that a person wouldn't want to be overweight, but I don't think we have a right to cast a generic evaluation of their morality.
David
P.S. Miller2k ... I do agree with you, but you do seem to be getting a bit emotional. While this isn't necessarily wrong, it is counterproductive, if you do want to convey your point.
David
:) thank you for your comments. I appreciate whether you agree with me or not. My premise is this. This is a fact based discussion. At the end of the discussion, more facts will illuminate the truth. Flat earth theory may be appealing hundreds years ago but it is better for everyone to realize the facts. So, I thank you for your calm and gentlemanly demeanor.
OK, Back to the topic of concern. Are you telling me there is a 80/20 effect?
Irrespective of all the reports on fats/obeseity, you just graciously informed me that although 80% of fat is behavior induced but what REALLY caused FAT is the 20% (assuming there is a 20%) environmental factor? For that, I am appreciative but wait a second, let's assume 20% of this environmental factor causes fat. Let's also assume the air we breath, the water we drink, the "culture" we are in and let's also throw in the "the gene makes me do it" arguments. Let's say I accept all these and also I don't mind to disregard the fact that two generations ago, Americans were much leaner. However, having accepted all these assumptions and disregarding of historical facts, I still cannot explain why the Surgeon General's Call to Action (listed below) nothing but behavior modification strategies to lose weight. Now, you are a polite gentleman with a preference of facts. however you also seem to have a preference of minimize the effect of facts when it makes the heart better. I am just confused.
I thank you for offering your thoughts. :)
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_whatcanyoudo.htm
David..Thanks for being the voice of reason. Yes, I was upset. But for the same reason that a Jew would be upset at an anti-semite. It's frustrating to deal with someone who is so lazy as to judge an ENTIRE group of people based on little or no first hand knowledge. But you are right, hate never ends hate, ignorance never diminishes ignorance.
Nofatso...I would never deny your right to be a jack-ass. To the contrary, I defend your right to be however you like. Just as long as it doesn't interfere with my basic rights. That's where we differ...I would never judge you as a person until I get to know you and find out for myself. You are quick to lump ALL people who look a certain way in the same pile. At best, that's short-sighted. At worst, its deadly. Even, if being overweight was 100% behavior, does that mean that an overweight person should be denied the right to support his or her family? Does one negative behavioral trait automatically transfer to all other traits? Do ALL smokers cheat on their wives? Do ALL vegeterians preach to you? Are ALL choco-holics foul-tempered? C'mon, NOFATSO, you're smarter than that. All of the "facts" that you have provided are things that we already know. Ok, it's better for your health to be in shape. But does that mean that overweight people should be discriminated against? Should ALL smokers be judged as harshly? Are they all addicts who will always look for the quick-fix? Of course not.
The point of the analogy of smokers v.s overweight people is this: If there is no harsh judgement against smokers as compared to fat people, that's solely because the bad behavioral trait with fat people can be seen and the smokers' bad behavioral trait can't be seen (usually). So, this IS indeed a visually-induced prejudice. (and visually-induced prejudices are exactly the same whether it's due to sex, race, size, etc: It's about judging a person SOLELY based on appearance).If that's the case, then your prejudice is entirely based upon personal preference. Sure, you may not want to date a fat woman, but should that very fat woman be denied opportunities just because you don't like her appearance?
This is my last word on the matter (probably!). I will never convince you because, as I said ALL prejudices are basically irrational, so there's no hope.
To everyone else, thanks for indulging my diatribes. I'm not seeking any special favors and I don't want anyone to receive special favors...but I absolutely despise people who so desperately want to hold people down and diminish them for the horrible "sin" of being different...
I was angry for a while, but I'm back to being....
The Happiest Man Alive.
P.S. I have to get back to my "sedate" lifestlye. I never knew that being sedate was so much work, 12 hour days and two new businesses opening up. All this sedation is giving me an ulcer.... :)
miller2k
Welcome back! I was nervous that you get too upset. As I stated, a fact based non emotional discussion illuminates the truth. So, a hearty welcome back!
First of all, let me say, I am not a "jack-ass", i am "nofatso" :)
Also, thank you for saying that I am "smarter than that" to indicate your goodwill (I presume whatever "that" is, must be super good) :)
Second, I appreciate the overall tone of your posting much better even though you still used lots of languages as "hate", "bigots", "discrmination" "prejudice". Feels like you are speaking in LOUD tone if not yelling. You continued to lump born trait with behavior trait. You continued to confuse proper "selection/screening/benchmarking" process as being "prejudice", "discrimination". Nonetheless, I applaud your goodwill and the overall improvement in tone which is more discussion oriented.
Thirdly, Discrimination as in one is unfavorably treated due to one's born trait, as in race, sexual orientation, ethnicity. This is different from laziness, sedate lifestyle and lack of motivation, which is a behavior trait. I cannot change my race but can change my behavior. A bahavior based selection criteria is not discriminition. Denying someone of a job because she is black is heaven and earth different from denying someone because she lacks motivation, as manifested from her body weight, which makes good business sense. Havings said that.......... ==>
there is NO EVIDENCE that overweight people are being "discriminated". The fact simply does not support the argument that weighty people are discriminated. Just look around you. In government, the corporate world, lots of alternatively weighted folks have senior high paying positions. From entertainment industry (Rosie, Limbaugh - all 300 pounders) to government (Armitage, Bennet, also close to 300#). So people are accorded with all the benefit of equal opportunity and weight does not seem to be a factor.
So, recap. I am nofatso, not jack-ass. Born trait vs. Behavior Trait. Discrimination of black is bad, selection based on behavioral trait good. No fact supporting weighty people were discriminated. Free choice is good. Holding one accountable to the choice s/he makes is not discrimination, it's accountability. All good. Flat earth theory no good. Fact based discussion good.
Glad that you are back to your happy self. Super good, keep it up. :)
miller2k
You mentioned that you are troubled by ulcer. According to Center of Disease Control, 9 out of 10 ulcers are caused by a certain bacteria in your stomach. In such case, a doctor's antibiotic prescription will correct the symtom. The other 1 out of 10 ulcer would be caused by the placebo effect whereby the patient "felt" she has ulcer, this is probably caused by stress and other psycho neural issues. To that, doctor recommends stress reduction therapy (as in meditation, yoga, exercise) and counselling. I hope you feel better soon. :)
Sinanju Master
06-08-02, 01:32
[thinking that this has gone on too long and that SinanjuMaster will have to act the part of Moe to nofatso's and miller2k's Larry and Curly] Double eyepoke and/or loud slaps
master
Not so fast now. I prefer to be Moe. Moe is always my main man. :)
Sin...if you give me the poke in the eye, then I will simply use the standard, hands up defense and split those fingers apart. If you continue the attack I'll give you the ol' belly-bump, into a mule kick move...Speaking of the stooges, you can tell a lot about a man by what stooge he likes best. Nofatso likes the abusive Moe, makes sense :)
Nofatso, I was just kidding about the ulcer. I was trying to illustrate the fact that I was feeling a lot of pressure due to the "sedate" lifestyle of almost 18 hour work days. By the way, I meditate every day. You should try it. It opens up the mind and would release your inner rage.
I'm so glad that my tone is to your liking since the Earth does indeed revolove around you and your personal preferences. With regards to your "facts"...you assume (ASS U ME) that ALL negative behavioral traits are related. What about my example of the smoker? Smoking is a bad behavioral trait yet there is no rush to judge smokers. There IS a rush to judge overweight people as "lazy, unmotivated, etc" Why? Both are negative traits, but only one is visible. What you fail to understand is YOUR responsibility in the whole matter. Sure the object of your judgement, if he/she is black had no choice in the matter and the overweight person (for the most part) did, but YOU are the one we're talking about. YOU are judging a person based entirely on a stereotype that you have developed. So YOU are committing the same error that a racial bigot would make: Assuming that all people with a certain appearance MUST act a certain way. This a major problem in today's society. People just don't accept responsibility for themselves. It's always the other person's fault. You stereotype and hate, yet it's the other person's fault for being that way. You have no responsibility in the matter. Physician, heal thyself.
I never said that fat people were being discriminated against. I was responding to your judgement of potential employees and how you assume (ASS U ME) they must act a certain way. ( I sure hope you don't work in Human Resources) Like I said, I'm overweight and I've never suffered from a lack of motivation, nor laziness. I finished college with a Masters Degree and in the top 5 percent of the class, I studied boxing (and had one pro fight) for four years, I've written 3 novels and two collections of poetry, I worked my way through a major corporation from a summer, mail room intern to a junior vice-president, I moved to Mexico and opened an English Academy, I'm opening another branch of my school, I volunteer with orphans in a nearby village, and I'm opening two other businesses. And I'm barely past 30 years of age. (All this, and I still have time for my "hobby"). Now, I'm not bragging because many people have accomplished a lot more than me, but I know to expect some snide remark. ( I really don't like to give out so many
personal details). I just wanted to point out the flaw in your prejudice. I am NOT lazy or sedate, yet I'm overweight!!! How can this be? Do I like to eat? Hell, yeah. Do I like to sleep with beautiful women, Hell yeah. But my over-eating and my reluctance to run on a treadmill has never affected my desire to bust my (fat)ass to do a great job at anything and everything I try.
Your so-called fact-based discussion is just a series of opinions that you have formulated. Don't try to pretend otherwise because there are NO facts to point out that ALL fat people are a certain way. Show me one "fact" that supports your irrational prejudice...
So, recap. Opinions passed off as "facts" are bad. Judging people on your own personal experiences with them is good. People believed in the Flat Earth theory because they only had opinions, not first hand facts. They were proved wrong by somebody who actually took the effort to discover the truth first hand. Judging people on the content of their character is good. Insisting that someone be "held accountable" for a behavior that may or may not be relevant to the task at hand is bad. Freedom to be a "jack-ass", good. Forcing your personal preferences on others, bad.
Have a SUPER day. Here's an olive branch: You're as intelligent and reasonable as you are tolerant. :) :) :) :) :) ;)
miller2k
Thank you for your discussion. I recognize and appreciate that. To reciprocate your goodwill gesture, I am not going to repeat my discussion on "discrimination" versus factual judgement. I would, however, address two questions you raised.
1. Active but still overweight, why?
I probably eat more than you. Yes, I eat a lot. The average American food is very unhealthy, filled with cheese, sour cream, cream, high fat milk, meat paddies and the like. The cooking method is unhealthy too, lots of deep fried, lots of fats with animal fat etc. So, I tend to do my own cooking. Also, I eat a lot but also very little portion, but I eat a lot of meals during the course of the day. Avoid processed foods (as in foods or drinks with high sugar), if you like sugar, eat lots of fruits. Try fish, chicken and all sorts of veggies. Also, bear in mind "fat" as in meat fat is NOT the only culprit. Refined sugar too. When you look at the packaged food available in grocery, the sugar content is huge. Case in point, a 16 ounce bottle CoCa Cola will get you 150 plus calories and to burn this much energy, you have to walk briskly for 90 minutes! A small bowl of honey glazed cereal has 100 calories of sugar! So, diet is a critical step to weight management. Again, I am not saying this is your diet. However, according to all the reports I read and observation of my overweight friends, their diet is the number 1 culprit.
2. Exercise.
I am not talking about trying to win the Olympics gold medals nor am I referring to how busy you work. You can lead a very busy life yet still have a sedate lifestyle. Last month, I worked so hard at the office and got lazy and failed to do excercise, I gained 20lbs in a month! Working hard in your business has nothing to do with motivation to manage a Life (as so brilliently stated by Tony Robbins). For exercise, I mean modest exercise and a motivation to make exercise as a lifestyle. What do I mean by lifestyle? Like parking the car four or five blocks from the office, and walk a distance, as in climbing the stairs to the apartment. Take time out to brisk walk everyday for 30 minutes. If you like, do a 30 minutes jogging every other day. Do 20 minutes light weight lifting every other day. I work in the third level of a six storey office and I notice many of my colleagues would take the elevator commuting even from ground level to the first. Their lifestyle or life pattern is very sedate. In fact, climbing the stairs gives you a good excuse to exercise. Also, as a first step, don't pressure yourself to do everything all at once, one step at a time. However, make sure the consistency is there. Motivate yourself to make every tiny step counts. Focus on one pound per week, per month.
Now having said all this, weight is a personal choice. As you make a choice, society is to hold you accountable to the choice you made. It is much easier to manage weight than to change the society. In addition to that, even you have alluded to the benefit of weight management. I wish you best! :)
well...I'm glad to see that you've assumed a more reasonable tone...I'm also glad that you (maybe inadvertently) have seen the error in your initial statements...So, ALL fat people are not necessarily lazy and detrimental to the work environment....Not having the healthiest of diets is not an indication of being a terrible, inneficient person...it's merely a bad lifestyle choice...and who among us has not fallen victim to bad lifestyle choices? But this does not mean that we are somehow diminished as a person...There is a difference between being "held accountable" for a lifestyle choice and being discriminated against. It's the difference between :"She's so fat, no wonder she can't find pants that fit her" and "Look at her fat ass, there's no way I would ever hire that tub." The former is a direct, fair (but not necessarily sensitive) assesment...eats a lot+ no exercise= difficulty in finding clothes to wear. The latter is NOT a fair assesment, it is the assumption of guilt in ALL areas for the guilt in one. It would be like being convicted of a moving violation in traffic court and then the judge telling you that he will hold you for questioning in a murder because "ALL traffic violators are murderers."
Well...I wish you well. Maybe somewhere down the line we can debate again (Hell, we might even be on the same side the next time)
miller2k
i want to extend a hand of friendship and reconciliation to you. let me be honest with you, i was quite touched by your earlier posting. you came out and stated about the success of your business, your involvement in your community etc. it is your personal privacy and you don't owe anyone a "confession" ;like this on this board and you did that. i feel very touched by your writing. i felt, i could have presented the facts much better, in a more diplomatic form with you. throughout my discussion, i have chosen to use unbiased evidence from the behavioral science, medical science fields. however, sometimes in a heated discussion, dry facts can be annoying and i may be guilty of too many dry facts. case in point, oj was acquitted not by factual evidence but by emotional sentiments. so, i am aware of that and i felt you have been unfairly treated in this discussion. so, for lack of a better word, i want to apologize to you. having said that.........
it was in no way i want to discard the truth that obesity and laziness, lack of motivation, personal discipline is directly linked. based on every scientific evidence, they are. i do not want to be the italian guy (corpenicus? sp?) who had every scientific fact to say that flat earth is wrong but later retrenched due to political pressure from the vatican. so, it is not an "assumption" but "conclusion" based on long range scientific research and evidence. so, yes, lack of motivation/discipline/laziness is the cause of obesity. having restated that.........
i want to make sure you understand everybody is entitled to make their own choice in life and i am, from the very beginning, did not call on you to make a different choice. this entire discussion was started when you felt obesity is an inherited gene (i maintain it is a choice one conscienciously made) and that society discriminates against obese people as in discriminating of blacks (i maintain there is 1*. no evidence of discrimination and 2*. holding one accountable to the choice one made is no discrimination).
miller2k, i would say we agree to disagree. in no way our disagreement makes either one of us as being anything negative. this is the nature of any political discussion, . if you believe in your principle, hold on to it. the same for me. hey, may be you are winning! i heard on the radio that in california, where 40% of school children are obese, there were reported cases of "discrimination" where the "lean" children were being rejected by the fat group or experiencing peer pressure to get fat, to "get along" so to speak. so, i will not be the least bit surprised that one of these days, i have to get to 300lbs to avoid "discrimination"! would i do that, you bet i will if that is the only way i can avoid being discrimination. i wish you well. :)
yes, i know we are onhe same side on at least one issue, i.e. free to choose, free to make a
Nofatso,
Let us have one more go of it then (sorry for my tardiness, fast internet access is on and off with me).
My objection to your treatments of people who were overweight lay solely in the moral evaluation (as opposed to the "facts"). -- Lazy, Gluttonous, etc.
Clearly, being overweight is bad for your health. However, that *does not* mean you are lazy in general. For example, there are lots of overweight people who, while *physically* lazy, still work their butt's off at work (~mentally). Also (and more importantly), who are we to judge?!? If someone doesn't like exercising, we can't say their decision is wrong. It very well could be that their decision to not exercise was perfectly rational (too much effort for not enough gain...)
Likewise, calling someone "gluttonous" has moral overtones ... it is, after all, one of the seven deadly sins. There is a vast difference between saying "gluttonous" and "eats a lot". One has moral overtones, another does not. A glutton is a *bad person* because he eats a lot. A person who simply eats a lot might be good or bad.
*Sighs*. I hope I have successfully communicated my main problem with the phrasing of your earlier posts.
Sincerely,
David
P.S. I'm impressed with your composure. Thank you for engaging in civil debate. *Smiles*.
Let me continue (about the lazy thing).
To be lazy is immoral (at least according to older protestant teachings). To chose not to do something because you don't find it sufficiently worthwhile (be it excercise, getting a second job, etc.) is simply decision making.
It is really this distinction ... the difference between judging a person, and describing typical decisions made by people, that I am trying to emphasize.
As an example (you describing people who are fat, and me describing them).
You:
They're (typically) lazy, gluttons.
Me:
They tend to be less physically active, and tend to eat more.
Ah. I think I've done a better job explaining. Good. I look forward to hearing from you.
Smiles,
David
Nofatso...one clarification: I never said that I felt that being overweight was solely an inhertited gene. I DON'T believe that. I think that it, just as with almost every other behavioral trait, is a mixture of nature and nurture. Skinny people aren't always skinny just because they eat fruits and workout...Nature always will have her say in the matter. Even when I was in training, I still looked heavy. I worked out daily and ate all of the right foods (as prescribed by my trainer) and I still looked pudgy. I stopped training so hard after I realized that women would still want me, my employer would still value me, and life would still be beautiful if I didn't kill myself an hour and a half a day (3 hours on Tues. and Fri)
Having said that, my main point of contention was with your "They don't exercise so they must be lazy" generlization. Sure, maybe overweight people are "unmotivated" to work out, but this attitude does not necessarily translate to lack of motivation in all areas. You might LOVE chocolate and eat it like a pig, but that doesn't mean that if I bring over a few steaks you will devour them all. Lack of desire to be "in style" isn't laziness per se...sure, it CAN be, but you can't make a total generlization. Sure, you can point to the cold, hard facts that state "Lack of exercise and poor eating habits cause 99% of the obesity in the world." But, I was never disputing that. What I WAS disputing was your theory that lack of exercise always is laziness and laziness with regards to exercise is always a sign of laziness in other areas of life. There are no cold, hard facts to prove that point...because it's wrong.
I also disagree with another point. This one is more of an issue of personal preference. I will ALWAYS be exactly how I wish to be. So, even if the norms of society change, I will keep being me. So, if everybody weighs 300lbs, keep being yourself. I've found that holding steady, standing firm, and being "real" will always triumph over stereotypical judgements...Discrimination only exists when the "victims" tolerate the discrimination...
from: The Happiest Man Alive, deep in the heart of Mexico
David
I appreciate your comments on "non judgemental". Most of us lead a life of being non judgemental unless the issue at stake involves our personal welfare. It just happened that I dare to articulate what most of us hide in our hearts. Having said that, I do understand that people have feelings and feelings can be hurt. Sometimes, it is socially feasible to remain silent but when too many of us keep silent, the truth lost out somewhere. I do not intend to repeat the central thesis of my discussions out of respect to miller2k's feelings. You can track my discussions from previous postings if you are interested.
After 9/11, many of us are under even more pressure to speak up if the truth is violated. Case in point, I saw a middle eastern looking man in our building and the first thing I did was to call the security and followed up with the management. Is this racial profiling, you bet, would I do it again, a resounding yes. As I stated, I truly do not intend to hurt miller2k's feeling, but I did which I regretted. It is a tough stance as how to make truth prevail and not hurting others feeling. It is a fine line I am still learning to track. I appreciate your comments.
miller2k
Thank you for your nice comments. I surely appreciate.
Seems like you and I will continue to disagree on ALL the issues we discuss, in particular, judgement based on facts is informed decision, not "discrimination" and behavior is the cause of obesity.
However, as I stated, you are entitled to your opinion and I will definitely fight for your right to speak your mind, I think this may be the area you and I both agree. How about we settle on this :)
nofatso...we DO agree on the concept of freedom...you're free to be wrong (ha,ha)
..but let me clarify that my feelings were NEVER hurt. I was ANGRY. I wasn't weeping because you insulted me. I was angry because you judged all fat people based on your limited knowledge. Opinions are alright, but they aren't alright when they stand in the way of someone making a living for their family. That's where I felt you crossed the line from "opinionated" (good) to "hateful" (bad)..and I will never remain silent with respect to something that I know to be wrong and dangerous.
YOUR truth did not prevail because it was just that ...YOUR truth. I respect the freedom to express opinions (moreso than most), but I don't respect the arrogance to assume that those same opinions are facts just because you believe them strongly.
I just can't understand why you don't understand my central point: Judging based on facts is reasonable, but making a correlation between one bad habit and all others is just plain wrong. If you say, "she is fat, she is lazy to work out, so she will be lazy at her place of employment" that's just the same as saying "He is black, blacks are criminals, so he will steal from his place of employment." You are making an assumption about a person's abilities and/or attributes based SOLELY on appearance. And behavior IS the cause of being overweight, but there is a genetic component as well. This IS a fact, but I'm not releasing all overweight people from responsibility...
I'm glad that your tone has calmed down (as opposed to the mocking, hateful tone you assumed much earlier in this section, when you assumed that everybody would rush in to join you and nobody would call you out), but you never have to "worry" about hurting my feelings.
Like I said, I respect your right to live as you see fit and I would defend with my life your right to freedom...
Let's end this because it's obvious that we're just repeating ourselves now...let's agree on this:
WE LOVE OUR HOBBY!!!! AND WE LOVE WOMEN!!!!
miller2k
Great! so we determine that =>
1. Both of us support the freedom to choose
2. Both of us support the freedom to speak our minds
3. Both of us like women and we like to have fun.
So, let's get back to the area we agree. Thank you.
I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see if with my own eyes. A friend of mine showed me this whole website (we're both female), and I can't believe guys spend so much time looking and paying for sex. I'm not some man-hater, but I've never heard guys talk about girls like this. I know there are some real stuck-up snobs out there, but some of these posts are lumping all American women together in the same category. There are some real jerks of men out there too you know but not all girls think of all guys that way. Why do you let the few rotten apples speak for the rest of us? We're not all out to wring you out dry and walk all over you! I will tell you though that the minute you let a girl walk over you, you're buried. Be nice to us but don't be spineless. Some of us are really nice and really cute too!
USBabe, you wrote:
"I will tell you though that the minute you let a girl walk over you, you're buried. Be nice to us but don't be spineless. "
Thats where the problem is for a lot of us guys. Be nice to us, but dont be spineless, sounds easy enough right? Not when you have to keep guessing what role she wants you to play and when. I was born outside of the US but have lived most of life within the US. Generally, women outside of the US are more comfortable with men playing the traditional "man's" role, which I think makes it a lot easier for guys to just be themselves and not have to worry about whether they are on that fine line of nice but not spineless.
Hi US Babe,
Thanks for your comments. Maybe there is hope out there.
I wanted to inform you that this topic goes far beyond just written statements on this forum. If you have read this forum and its archives, you'd find that American men are going overseas by the planeload to find women. The big target areas are central and South America, Asia and Eastern Europe in particular.
In fact, three friends of mine just returned from The Netherlands where they met women and had extraordianry sex. By the way, these are tall, good looking professional guys with two of them having incomes in excess of 100K. This seems to be a growing sociological movement and has been examined already in the news media. In fact, this "exodus" seems to be acccelerating. The women in the US who know that I go to Eastern Europe to meet women also become very livid and irate with me when this topic comes up.
What are your thoughts and comments???
Sinanju Master
06-20-02, 16:08
Had I read the post by USbabe just a short while ago, I would have laid a mushroom cloud at her doorstep. Since I now try to think before responding to such a button-pushing issue (with ME that is) I'll try to calmy explain to her WHY her remedy to the situation works the OPPOSITE.
USbabe, I won't go the past route and say that ALL US women are Greedy, Rude, Obnoxious, Arrogant and Narcissistic. A GREAT MANY of them are and I'll tell you why. I always keep my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut. Okay, the third one is more difficult to do, but I do it enough to be able to ascertain information about a woman when I listen to her directly (when she's talking to ME) or indirectly (when I hear her talking to her friends). I often hear what they expect from a man and it seems as if US women are expecting a man to lay his world at their feet. That would be no problem with me IF I found a woman who realized that it's a two way street and that you have to EARN that world. You gotta be worth your weight in GOLD to make those kind of demands and you must back them up without hesitation if you are to convey any credibility.
I have truly lost count of the women who have told me they want a nice guy, only later to learn that they TRULY want an "exciting" guy instead. It's the constant (and UNANNOUNCED) change of rules in the middle of the game that make men scratch their heads and determine that women are incapable of logic. Myself, I like for a woman to be up front with me regarding her feelings (or lack thereof) for me. Sure it may sting initially, BUT I will respect her and give her a wide berth if she tells me up front that she's not interested. (I once had a woman reject me firmly, but politely. I was astonished at such a RARE display of true class, but I kept my composure and acquiesced to her wishes) INSTEAD, they will leave the hint (STOMP IT OUT,IF THERE IS NONE LADIES) that there is the possibility of an eventual romantic situation between them. They're afraid that our egos will shatter if we are rejected outright. Better to stomp out a fire NOW than to allow it to run rampant because you didn't take care of things up front. [To digress, yes, all, I was stupid enough NOT to put two and two together and burn bridges that would never have worked in the first place!] Anyway, getting back to the desire for a "nice" guy: when the women hook up with their TRUE choice of the exciting guy, many times they end up with an "addition" to the world that they did not plan and the exciting guy keeps true to his form of being exciting, by blowing town and avoiding his responsibilities. At the very least, he will contribute to a broken heart (the woman's) and add another notch to his bedpost, which ends up having American women lumping those of us who DON'T treat women like dog droppings into the same category as the offending guy who DIDN'T respect them. Meanwhile (in many cases, not ALL) the one whom she thought of as worthy of "plantng the seed" in her field of fertility has blown town and NOW she seeks a CHUMP to take care of the harvest. Who's that, you may ask? The nice guy she turned up her nose at in the FIRST PLACE. I don't know about my compadres on this board, but when a woman sees me only as a means to alleviate the hardships of taking care of the result of her mistake, I get disgusted and see the previously sought-after silk purse as a true sow.
I now realize (I mean TRULY REALIZE) that each and every human being has their own individual tastes and that not every woman will like me. C'est La Vie. Being in this "battle" has taught me to cut my losses and move on. Actually, it's taught me to determine a loss BEFORE I waste my time with a double-speaking, fork-tongued "gamestress".
To my compadres who contribue to this board, I hope I've not produced a lifeless, radioactive crater as I have in the past. Like I said, for ME, this is a button pushing issue that would have in the past, caused me to launch a thermonuclear arsenal and be damned who gets hurt.
i went back and read all the posts on "american women." you guys sound like you've really been burned, and i'm sorry to hear that. it happens to women too though. i forgot who said it but someone mentioned that women are like little children and if you put up with their rotten behavior, they will keep giving it. that's it! i don't really think women are out to test guys, but if a guy doesn't put a stop to that kind of manipulative behavior, it continues. then, the woman doesn't respect the man, and vice versa. i get the impression that some guys are afraid of losing her, so they'll put up with anything, and that's where the problem starts.
brownie, you said, " not when you have to keep guessing what role she wants you to play and when." already your role is pansy (i'm not trying to be mean to you, but it's the truth). it's good to be flexible and to want to please women, but when you start really altering your behavior only to please her, you lose yourself and aren't true to who you are, and that loses respect with women, no matter what they say.
paddy, you said "the women in the us who know that i go to eastern europe to meet women also become very livid and irate with me when this topic comes up." okay, think if i said this, "i'm going to eastern europe to meet some real men because all the men in the us are either chauvinist pigs or wimps." wouldn't that put you on the defensive? if you said that you like to travel to eastern europe because you like traveling and meeting new people, and by the way, you just happened to meet a lot of very nice girls, only someone really insecure would take offense. it all depends on how you word it. if you say that you're going there because there are no quality women here, that obviously includes them, and i could see why they would be insulted.
sinanjumaster, it sounds like you've really been burned, and i'm sorry to hear that. please remember that there are millions of women in the us and just because a few are immature brats doesn't mean we all are. a friend of mine was raped a couple of years ago. it was devastating to her, and she's still in counseling. she is one of the nicest people in the world and i just want to hang up the guy by his you-know-what who did it to her. but she's slowly learning to trust again and is trying hard to realize that not all men are like that at all. you have to do the same. in fact, could it be that you're trying too hard? or that your past negative experiences are hidden just under the surface and women can sense that?
here's a question i have for you. do you usually get a definite sense of yes or no after you've gone out on a first date? sometimes i do, but not always. maybe women don't tell you that they're not interested because it isn't true. maybe they feel a tiny spark but not an overwhelming one. then later when any spark just hasn't materialized, you think that they were leading you on. i'm not saying that is what happened, but it's a possibility to consider.
you said, "actually, it's taught me to determine a loss before i waste my time with a double-speaking, fork-tongued "gamestress". i'm sure there are some women who play games. but i also think that sometimes men and women may interpret the same situation in different ways, and that might be contributing to your pain. i see you teeter tottering between two extremes, immediately putting up your defenses so that no woman has a chance and then getting rid of all defenses and leaving your heart open to beat in the raw.
okay, all women are different, but here's my prescription on how to attract the opposite sex while maintaining your own self-respect. you say that girls want men to be "exciting." well yeah, i mean, would you be interested in a "boring" girl?! be nice to her but don't be too vulnerable. don't ever bend over backwards to please her, it makes you look weak and kind of desperate, if you want to know the truth. at least in the beginning of the relationship, don't ask her to solve your problems. be flexible, but never give up your life for someone else. that makes us feel like we're responsible for your happiness, and that's just too big of a burden. think about it, would you be more attracted to a woman who a) is just stagnating in life, sitting around saying, "i have so much to give but no one to give it to, as soon as i meet mr. right, my life will be so perfect," or b) a woman who is currently happy and fulfilled. putting men in those situations, i'd much rather be with someone who leads a full life and is willing to make me a part of it, not someone who puts me at the helm and expects me to steer the vessel of his happiness and self-esteem.
(continued in next post)
(this is part 2)
Look at the guys who never seem to have problems attracting women. They're usually somewhat mysterious, in other words, they don't tell women everything. We read Nancy Drew mystery stories as children, and we want to find out what's inside! Be willing to please but not TOO much so. Do you really want to drive a girl crazy? After your first date, although I know what you really want to do (in most cases, anyway), don't attempt a good night kiss. Instead, kiss the back of her hand, and then leave without hesitation. It always works, and I'll tell you why. If the date didn't go so well, you prove yourself to be a gentleman of grace in the face of a not-so-great circumstance. If there were sparks, trust me, she'll be up all night and can't get you off of her mind! She'll wonder why you didn't try to kiss her on the lips. And, I know this will make no sense to you, you'll become more desirable. Guys are wired to want sex. So, if the date went well, she'll wonder why you didn't even at least try to kiss her on the lips! Make us want to know more about you.
There are millions of women in the US. There are some wonderful, sexy, brilliant, gorgeous ones and there are some ugly, man-hating, bitchy ones as well. Please don't let the latter get in the way of finding the real gems. As with any precious stone, sometimes you have to remove a few rough pebbles before you find the shining treasure. :-)
Sinanju Master
06-21-02, 00:14
WOW! Something must be wrong with me! I instinctively wanted to punch holes in USBabe's analysis, but she was RIGHT
Sinanju Master
06-21-02, 00:28
(accidentally continued from my previous post) WOW! Something must be wrong with me! USBabe, I instinctively wanted to punch holes in your analysis, but you were RIGHT on ALL COUNTS and I can't find anything wrong with your presentation! I'm gonna say something that I'll admit that I almost NEVER say to a woman:"You're right". In my defense (what little I have) whenever I've been to Europe, I've never had to labor to have female companionship (not necessarily sex). I was able to chat with the local ladies and not feel as if I were on the witness stand and being tested to see if I were somehow cloaking my intent or what have you. Here in the US, I feel as if I have to unnaturally keep on my toes and raise my shields. But since you so eloquently made your presentation, it made me think of actually BURYING the axe instead of just talking about it. Pass the Humble Pie, please.....
Yeah I wanted to put my two cents on the current discussion. First of all I would like to welcome USBabe to the forum. It's nice to hear a fresh feminine perspective on our topic of American women. USBabe, you were quoting me on one of my post in which I compared women to little children (but not in a derogotory way). One guy on here actually didn't understand where I was coming from so I'll explain it again. What I was trying to say is that if you spoil a human being, male or female, when you stop spoiling them they will get mad about not receiving preferential treatment. In another one of my post I stated that the American woman was a monster that the American man created.
Now what I'm about to say is not meant to offend anyone. I am not prejudiced at all but I must say this because it is the truth. America is basically a Caucasion nation. I mean it's mixed with a lot of races but white people started America. And the American model is to bend over backwards to satisfy their women. I really don't think it is only a racial thing. I think it's more of a monatary thing. I once stated on here that I read somewhere that the more succesful a nation became, the more power they gave to their women in terms of material gains. That is essentially what has happened in America. The reason I bring this up is because in other countries the men just don't treat their women like Americans treat their women. In a lot of these other countries sex is treated as nothing, just like sleeping or taking a shower.
The American man has elevated the American woman above himself when in actuality we all equal. I believe that in these other countries they sometimes go to far to the left and American men go to far to the right. What you have to do is find a nice equilibrium to how you treat women.
I am a black American male (pretty handsome one I might add, ha ha) but seriously I laugh at this whole situation as a whole: how black and white American men treat their women and how men in like Africa or Afganistan treat their women. I find it fascinating how we're basically all human beings but every nation has it's own unique WOMAN policy.
I'm about to go but let me add, I agree with USBabe not all American women are bad. But a lot of them have been socially conditioned to be idiots. And the women can't even see it. It's like the first time I went to Brazil it blew me away because, even though it's a lot of crime there, the people are nice. I mean everybody is. But they a socially conditioned to be that way. A lot of these foreign women are socially conditioned to be real feminine and sexy. A lot of American women are socailly conditioned to be real bitchy, moody, etc. Growing up I've never had many girlfriends; I figured out a young age that American women are basically acting moody, bitchy, etc. to get what they want and psychologically stay above men be seeming like they're not satisfied with nothing you do. Anyway I could talk all night about this subject as you can see, but the point that I must make is that a lot of Americans are SAD with the dating situation here. That's why I've given up on American women. You know that this situation is basically created one, because God made men and women to be get together and populate this planet. It's not supposed to be this hard; that's how you know something is wrong with this American dating model.
Sinanjumaster, you are very kind! You said, "I'm gonna say something that I'll admit that I almost NEVER say to a woman: 'You're right'." Could I get that in writing please?! I'm just teasing you. Actually, I'm not right, and I'm not wrong. I'm just relaying my experiences in life. I also know that quite often, people are easier to meet in some countries outside the US. When I travel by myself outside the US, men frequently approach me, but it isn't too often in the US. It's almost as if guys are scared or don't want to make the effort. If I were a guy and had been insulted by women much of the time when I approached women, I'd probably be a lot more wary, too. We tend to be somewhat of an uptight society, not only with romantic and sexual relationships but in general. In crowds, it's a fact of life that we get bumped or get our toes stepped on. Usually in Europe, people utter a quick pardon and go on their way, but too often in the states, people take it so personally, as if the other person had it all staged out, just to inconvenience them! I think the trick is to adequately protect ourselves yet not put up such a strong defense that it repels others. I really do think people sense negative vibes from others. And it's also hard to optimistic when you've been shot down quite a bit. To put things in perspective, I think of Terry Anderson, who was held captive for what, 7 years, or something incredibly long like that. Now, that is a guy who deserves to be bitter! But he isn't. We're a lot stronger and tougher than we give ourselves credit. Sinanjumaster, you sound like a cool guy. Please never give a girl the power of making you feel inferior.
Sinanju Master
06-21-02, 05:27
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH! Curse you, USBabe! You're right, and pleasant and graceful! DAMMIT! Yer NOT supposed to be! Just kidding! What's scary is that this is one of those moments in time (in MY life, at least) where something of value actually STICKS to my mind and the undeniable conclusion seeps into my mind because I HAVE to accept the logic of it. To do LESS would mean that I am being ILLOGICAL, and to do THAT would mean that don't have a leg to stand on. On a more serious note, you've made me question my female-bashing tendencies, uncomfortable as it is. My ex (a woman with whom I'm actually still good friends) once asked me why I hate women. I told her I didn't, but maybe I did. WELL... I have some work to do, but luckily, a lot fo it was done FOR me. Oh yeah, my attorney is drafting up that written proclamation of me being wrong! LOL
Hi US Babe,
I never directly tell women here that I'm going to Eastern Europe to meet women there. It's when they find out from friends and others that the firestorm starts. I must say that the response of American women is both harsh and consistent.
I make no excuses for trips abroad. We live in a free and democratic society and I'm exercising my rights. Hey, none of these women went ballistic on me when I bought my BMW.
It's just that I find women in Europe to be so much more friendly and engaging. Just walking around Bratislava or Prague, for instance, the women are slender, fashionable and very striking. What do we have here? Countless numbers of seriously overweight women who have given up on their appearance in many instances. When the US Surgeon General says that obesity is an "epidemic" here in the US I believe it. I work constantly on staying fit and in shape and women here can do it too. I think that you get my drift.
I hang out at a bar in Prague that is frequented by Brits, Scots, etc. They tell me that if you see a fat, masculine women in Prague - she's an American. You know what? This harsh generalization is often correct.
Been busy for a while and no time to engage my buddies on this site. Hey Sin...Master, how's going?!
First of all, USBabe. Where are you located? Let's meet for coffee and check out the possibility. You sound nice. But first of all, I like tight, fit pretty babes below 27 above 5'8". Brains optional. :)
Hey, guys. Talking about American women. Just keep an eye on the fire at Pikes Peak CO. So, this evil ALLWiBo, (yes, for lack of better word, she is fat) who went about setting fire and burnt everything. So, the cops arrested her and her first line of defence was campers, careless smokers, hunters (the traditional woes of the left wing liberal feminazis). So, the cops confronted her with evidence that there was no smokers, no hunters, no campers, so she stated her ex- made her do it (at least the letter from the ex). So the cops again confronted her that there was no trace of burnt paper and a check with her ex reported that the guy never even sent her any letters. Now detectives found evidence that the fire was deliberately set. I am waiting to hear her third line of defence. As I said, this is so typical of gringo ALLWiBos, first blame it on men, second blame it on society, especially the Republicans, third blame it on repressed memory. It always work. Now, what is so intriguing is the judge would let her go on bail for a few hundred grand. This is typical of the liberal bench when every woman is judged to be "kind" and "nice". It's reported that the fat chick may be suicidal. Typical of liberal media, every woman is a victim of the society and even when they are caught in the act, they are so repressed by society that they can be suicidal. Well, tell it to the home owners who lost their hard earned property. So, guys, be careful with when you are with gringo women, especially ALLWiBos, they are going to burn you :)
Sinanju Master
06-21-02, 06:31
nofatso, can you tell me what ALLWiBo means again? I'm sorry I haven't the strength to search for it, but I've been up ALL DAY busting my ass at work and research is NOT in my plans right now.
I have to respond to some of the comments started off by USBabe.
First, phil (Afro Bro), you may be handsome and nice looking like my main man Denzel, however to an American ALLWiBos, you are just another potential victim if you ain't careful with them. ALLWiBos are EEOC. Just check out Tom Cruise... oops, I am wrong Nicole Kidman is Aussie. Oh well, what the hell, Aussie women are just as bad. Yes, Aussie and American are all bad.
Now to Paddy. Of course, the gringo women are ballistic to know that you went to Europe. You are making a loud and clear statement (i.e. you voted with your feet w/o even articulating it). The statement is, to hell with your messy hair, messy dress, SLOB (Saggy, Loose, Obese Body) and most of all, to hell with your attitude, I have better babes to dig then waste my time on you. Check out contemporary American history, when American corporation moved jobs to another country or allow more immigrants in to diversify the labor pool, the labor union fought (yes, violence) big time. Until today, violence is on going in some old line industry. Not so much in technology trade. Bottomline is this, I believe in free society, free competition. Let's face it, if foreign men flood to America to get all these ALLWiBos, more power to them. But let's be serious, who would want to waste time on these ALLWiBos? I have a few Brasilian guy friends who told me American women are fat and ugly. I am like, hello!!!? Tell me something new plezzzzzz.
Now, guys, when even Tom Cruise, the guy with 10,000,000 easy laids is dating a Spanish woman, that's your take home message. :)
hey Master. Nice to see my buddy here again. Yeah, I been totally busy finishing up two deadlines. Got done and preparing my month long trip to Brasil.... :)
ALLWiBOS (alternative looking lady with wide Body Shape). the political incorrect terminology is UFC as in Ugly Fat Chick. I was like UFC dig KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicks). :)
Sinanjumaster, sir, you are utterly doomed. If you keep making a habit of opening your mind like this, one day a beautiful, intelligent, and charming woman is simply going to waltz right into your life. What on earth would the neighbors say? Your reputation as a woman basher would be utterly tarnished. We can't have that!
Here, I'll help you get back on track by describing myself. I'm 4'8", 350 pounds (I'm big boned), 69 years young, and the proud owner of a framed genuine US of A hi skool diploma! Now, get the %$#@! out of my way before I mace you because you're oppressing me and upsetting my delicate sensibilities.
There now, much better! Please excuse me now because I have a hot date with nofatso. We're meeting at the Cheesecake Factory for a few appetizers, entrées, and desserts. Then, he's taking me to Big Bertha's Abode of Bountiful Tents and Awnings and treating me to a whole new summer wardrobe! Oh, don't let him fool you, I know the kind of woman he likes. ;-)
Seriously, I have to catch a plane in the morning and probably won't have time to get online for a week or so, but I'll keep an eye out when I return.
...I've been out of town for a few days and I actually found a discussion in here!
First, welcome aboard US Babe. You're proof positive that there are many good women in the USA.
I truly think that the b*tches are the vast minority. The problem is that we are indeed too involved in our own selves. "I want this woman, she doesn't want me, she's bad." That's a very simplistic approach without even the slightest concern about the other person's feelings and point of view. Maybe the woman is NOT stringing you along, maybe she is deciding whether or not to have a relationship with you. Then, because of all of the baggage and negativity that you bring, she decides that you aren't the right one for her. Is that not fair? A bitter person hardly makes for a suitable life companion. Later, of course, you try to rationalize the rejection by saying that she wanted a rich man or a handsome man, etc.
Here's a little story: After a few rough situations with women, the man becomes resentful and then hateful. At that point, any hopes of a healthy romantic relationship are gone. Then, the man hits the road and leaves the country. In the foreign land, he feels revived. The women appear to be friendlier and the world is beautiful again. The man attributes this to some sort of deficiency in the US women and/or a superiority in the foreign women. But he is wrong. He feels so happy and alive because he is in a new environment, a fresh start so to speak, away from the place of countless rejections and heartaches. He finds himself free of the baggage that he carries, but never correctly attributes this to the real cause: He's left himself for awhile. He is free to be someone different because no one knows who he is. The pressure is off and he can finally be confident and comfortable in his own skin.
...Of course this is just a story...nothing like this is possible, right?
I've never had problems with US women. Like I said before, I am not the epitome of American beauty, but I've never had trouble finding a good woman. Why? Because I don't take this too seriously. I've been played for a fool just like everyone else, but so what? Am I going to sit around and feel sorry for myself for the rest of my life? Am I going to let this "woman" continue to affect me forever? Hell no. If I get played, I get played. I learn from my lessons and move on. I leave my emotional baggage behind because no woman wants to deal with that. I start new and don't assume that ALL people are this way or that ALL people act like this. I get the feeling that a lot of people here have never recovered from little Mary-Ann turning down your invitation to the homecoming dance. I know that it's easier to blame all of your shortcomings on other people, but if everyone you encounter leaves a bad taste in your mouth, maybe the problem is not the the rest of the world, maybe it's you.
Man, Nofatso..do you work for the "Brother" office supply company? I've never seen anyone use so many labels. What a fascinating world you live in...:)
Hey miller, welcome back. Nice to see all my buddies here. Master and Miller. all here. just like the old days even the old days was not too long ago. Nonetheless it's been fun.
Time out, miller, i think you and I have no fight. I am all peace. So, how about this? "No fight." Now, if you don't entertain my offer for peace, let's do it again? :)
USBabe. Sorry, thank you but no thanks. can't do. 350#? You got big bone alright.
time out. miller i changed my mind. feel like fighting tonight. waiting for us soccer to play germany. so, time to fight.
you are like insinuating that guys here were "hurt" by american women so they "hate" women. don't think so. do i have problem with american women, you bet. i have problem with american women because most of them (especially if you live in the "fly over states or the southern states), are fat. second i have problem with american women for not taking care of themselves. they consider putting on make up, nice hair do, manicure as bad. this is all culture. last week, a local university invited miss usa to give the graduation speech. man alive, you wouldn't believe the level of condemnation from the student body. the comments were, a woman who was a winner of beauty paegent is not "smart" enough........ bottomline is, american women feel that taking time to make oneself look good is degrading, is dumb. the counter culture dictates. so, when miss usa spoke at the graduation ceremony, some students booed. this is the mindset of american women, fat/ugly is a virtue. pretty fit/tight dumb. so, everybody goes out to get fat. third, the attitude and the victimhood mentality. this theme has been repeated enough, no need to have more.
now, let's check out our options. in this internet age, like it or not, many men (may not be all) have options. same for women. if you have the means, the time and the look, there is no reason to fool around in hell hole. thus many guys go overseas. why not? from sex tourism to mail order bride. this is exactly like 20 years ago when american automobile got so lousy that german and japanese imports ruled the day. or even better, corporations moved jobs overseas where the cost is lower and quality is higher. our company just moved our entire engineering division to india where they have better engineers at half the cost. (just go to silicon valley, many us engineers are already indian imports). so, we are competing with the whole world. we no longer have the luxury of the "lucky sperm club", that just because i was born and raised in the good old usa, i "deserve" to have this and that...... same with women. if you are fat, ugly, not taking care of yourself, then you are at a competitive disadvantage when matched with a gorgeous foreign babe. unless the men set low expectation for themselves, these women are just last night's leftover pizzas on coffee table. let's face it. american men, irrespective of what we think, are not superior to men in these foreign countries. i read many postings on this board stating that "foreign women like american guys because americans treat women so much better....." b.s. o have yet to see a totally nice guy got laid all the time. most probably nice guys have the most problem to get laid. but back to our subject, bottomline is, most of us have some wealth (as in disposable cash). even here in the us, let's face it, not many wage earners can throw in 10 grand for a vacation. that 10 grand in a developing world can cause even more outrageous. so, right there, american men with a walking dollar signs are at a competitive advantage. this is no different from hitting a club in miami. tom cruise gets right whereas you and your buddies are still in line.... facts of life. so, yes, i have problem with american women.
i'm just about ready to head out the door, but i couldn't resist taking a quick peek. hi miller – your words are perfectly terse! if every man heeded them, the problems between men and women would become nearly non-existent. seriously, i would urge any and all men to read your post and to totally absorb it. unfortunately for a lot of people (both men and women), their own tunnel vision of negativity will cloud out any ray of sunshine that might be present, and ultimately their pessimism becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
well, i've really gotta run, and i know you do, too. with your attitude and disposition, you probably have women trying to tear down your door at this very moment! you're carrying some dangerously potent wisdom there, mister. ;-)
..Thanks US Babe...have a nice trip
Nofatso...seeing that the USA lost, I am also in a fighting mood :) (try living in Mexico after we eliminate them from the World Cup..that's really difficult)
For someone who hates the whole "victimhood mentality", you sure moan about your victimization a lot. "Boo Hoo. Poor me." I see just as many attractive women as unattractive ones in the USA. Maybe your senses have been distorted to such a degree that only pure perfection will do (I'd love to see just how much of a "perfect specimen" you are).
With regards to the whole Miss USA thing: Sure, people get out of hand. There is always a lunatic fringe of one percent that is the most vocal. Once again, you are guilty of mass generalizations. You see women protesting and you say, "See. That's how they ALL are" Extremes in anything is bad. It is bad to be too PC and it's bad to be too Conservative.
Nobody is saying that there is anything wrong with being attractive and physically fit. You make it out like everybody is dying to be obese. C'mon. How many obese women or men are on TV or in the movies? There is a definite prejudice in popular culture towards cookie-cutter beauty. This culturalization leads to warped ideas of beauty that very few women (even with the perfect diet and exercise) can attain. The only point that needs to be made is that not all of a woman's value is wrapped up in her appearance. Sure, you may decide that one woman is more attractive than another, but that's alright. But she isn't diminished as a person just because she is less physically attractive to you.
I hope you learn to deal with your anger because I see nothing but loneliness and frustration in your future if you don't tame your inner demons. Sure, foreign women may be seeing dollar signs when they see you. And they may want to be with you initially. You may change a little with them, feel less bitter...but you can't escape yourself and sooner or later you will have the same problems that you had in the USA. You deserve better than that. Putting others down is the clearest cry for help. I personally couldn't care less about what the future holds for you, but you should care for yourself more. Bad ideas and negative thoughts are as toxic to your psyche as junk food is to your body.
from: THE HAPPIEST MAN ALIVE
miller You the man! Love to have a fighting partner. OK, let's GO!
But serious business first. Regretted (not sad) to see USA lost. I think they could have won if the ref. is not blind. Second, the Germans always played a boring game and this year, they are no different. So, US lost but my second favorite Brasil won and they won beautifully. Ronaldihno was fantastic. Did you see how he got ejected from the game? I missed that part.
Next step, I am going with Brasil (they played FANtastic last night), Senegal (they played with lots of style and passion) and lastly I route for Korea. I think Korea will beat Spain tonight and go on to beat German. The final will be either Brasil with Korea or Senegal with Korea. Yes, I am not sure if Brasil could beat Senegal easily. By now you would surmise that I don't think the European have much of a chance.
Now, soccer done, let's fight it out on the ALLWiBos. (next)
miller. This is bad. I must be demented..... I found no disagreement with you on your earlier posting. You got to do better than this...:) Give me that nasty so I can fight. You can't fight when you have no partner.
So, yes, I ditto your summary about the extremists on both ends of the political spectrums. Problem with America is everybody is "my way or the high way". Fact is, in life, except for ALLWiBos, most issues are settled in the "middle". So, no argument there. HOWEVER.....
You got me all wrong. I am not an angry male who got burned by ALLWiBos. In fact, my romantic life is pretty good and easy, just that 99.99% of women I boned wanted to have relationship with me and that pissed me off. I was like "go make your own money, I need no one to help spend my hard earned $$$." I just need some bom bom, call me when I need that pussy :)...... and they are always like "what's wrong with you... I have been nice to you..... da da da" then I just tuned them out...... in fact, in the last 24 months, none of my dates are ALLWiBos (not a bad feat if you consider this area 99% of single women are ALLWiBos). Ooops, time out, one of the girls is married... well. what the heck, she is totally doable. So, I was like, "hello? Can I just bone you w/o having to talk about relationship and all that shit?" So, I am not angry. Yeah, may be I am angry. The Bill of Rights has ensured that all MEN should bone a pussy w/o talking about relationship. If you do good, I can throw you some $ but definitely not give you half of my asset. That's all. Do I sound angry? I am saying this with a warm smile though :)
But what the heck, I am going on vacation in a week. No complaint.
Sinanju Master
06-21-02, 23:08
<getting custard pies ready to launch...>
hey Master. You got to say more than just launch a pie. :)
Sinanju Master
06-22-02, 03:28
that's true to a point, nofatso... it's just that if this continues, I'll ACTUALLY launch 'em! After that, I'll hafta offer my extended fist that will be enticing enough for the two of you to hit, which will cause it to swing around almost 360 degrees and to hit the two of you on the head. Then again, on the extremely RARE occasion, it HAS been known to hit the maker of the fist! LOL
Pussy. Pussy. Pussy. Not interested in debating obesity. Fat people do clutter up the place and a lot of American women are fat (more so than in other countries I've vistited). I don't like to fuck fat women. I'd rather fuck an ugly woman than a fat woman. Your experience may vary. Some guys dig fat chicks. Now LET'S GET BACK TO PUSSY.
Dickhead
Hey. Dickhead. Tell me something new!
All political correct talk aside I have yet to know a guy who like fat chick. (to "fuck" fat chick to use your term). Even the fatsos I know like tight young chicks and steer away from fat chicks. The same for fat chicks, they don't like fatsos either. I know, I have a woman colleague at the office and she is looking for dates and I introduced my buddy who is overweight to her. She got the nerve to complain to me that my friend is FAT!! I was like HELLLLOOOO. You ain't slim yourself so why complain to me? She was like, "but ..he is fat......" So, all talks aside, like I said, they give the talk but don't walk the walk when it comes to fat.
I know two guys who prefer overweight women. One got pissed off and wouldn't discuss it with me but the other one said he likes them because they are "nice and soft" and he likes to do them from behind. I don't know if it means anything and I don't really care, but both of these guys are black guys who will only (and I mean ONLY) date blonde, plump (or fat I guess) white women.
Maybe you and I should trade handles, because I'm not fat either and you are even more of a dickhead than I am.
DH
OK, I am changing my handle name to Dickhead-2.
Southwest is to charge two tickets on passengers whose body "protrude excessively into the next seats" (their words not mine). It's about time!! I heard United and American had this policy for some time but I never seen it enforced. What's wrong with this country? We had laws and no enforcement? :) What's the point of having the rules to begin with?
So, last month I was on a business trip from San Antonio to Abilene TX on Southwest. It was one of those commuter plane deals where they uses those tiny propeller aircraft. There was this huge guy, I mean huge huge guy. The flight attendant walked around and asked everybody's weight to do the weight balancing for the aircrast. Everyone had no problem reading the number out, but this guy mumbled that he is 190#. Everybody knew he was lying including the flight attendant. She was nice though, she politely told the guy to move to the back of the aircraft where there was a row of empty seats. I felt sorry for the guy and volunteered to move. It was difficult for him to squeeze in and out of the seat to begin with. The flight attendant was so appreciated that she discretely gave me a $100- flight coupon. I like Southwest.
Nofatso...I think that this might be the sign of the approaching Apocalypse, but we've actually agreed on two issues!!! I agree with the additional fares for the people who use more than one seat. This is a good example of people having to deal with the life choices they make. (Your previous theory of: fat=bad=lazy, just didn't cut it. This is a concrete case of being responsible for your own actions: fat=more space taken=more money.) The only problem with this might be in the actual implementation. How fat is too fat? When will this extra fare be figured out? etc. The logistics could be a nightmare. Can you imagine the ticket agent thinking you were small enough to fly for regular fare and then getting on the plane only to discover that you weren't? Would you be more pissed about a fat guy next to you paying normal fare or tremendous delays while the flight attendants try to deal with this issue? Having said that, though, this might be a plus for the fat people. I'm not so fat as to not fit in an airline seat, but if I was I wouldn't mind a bit paying extra so I could have more room.
See? We agree...isn't that nice? Lets leave the whole "fat" thing aside...but I would LOVE to know why you are such a passionate fat basher. Your psychology fascinates me. The study of socio-pathetic behavior has always intrigued me.
I also agree with you that there is a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to physical assessments. How many people on this board (and in general) complain about shallow, superficial women when they would only be willing to hook up with a model-type?
So, this is a beautiful moment when we are in full agreement...I'll savor it because sooner or later you'll say something goofy again.
You guys wanna talk about fat people and airlines, go to www.flyertalk.com where there are currently several debates going on this very subject.
THIS board here is about PUSSY.
well...Dickhead...post something about "PUSSY" and change the subject!!! Or do WE have to do ALL the work?
Rubber Nursey
06-24-02, 13:38
Just for you Dickhead......
*Turning around*
*Bending slowly over the bed and raising my skirt*
OOPS...it seems I forgot to put underwear on......
And what's this?? It's a shaved...pink...NOT obese...definately NOT lazy...
....PUSSY! LOL :)
Ok, so it's Australian pussy not American pussy and the topic at hand is American pussy (or lack thereof), but did I at least manage to change the subject????
*cheeky grin*
Hey Miller2k.
Do you have an e mail address? Want to pick your brain on a few questions about Mexico or Mexico City to be exact. One of my Brasilian girlfriends is going to Mexico City for a year and I am concerned about her welfare. Let me know if you can offer some advice. Thanks.
Originally posted by RN
Just for you Dickhead......
*Turning around*
*Bending slowly over the bed and raising my skirt*
OOPS...it seems I forgot to put underwear on......
And what's this?? It's a shaved...pink...NOT obese...definately NOT lazy...
....PUSSY! LOL :)
Ok, so it's Australian pussy not American pussy and the topic at hand is American pussy (or lack thereof), but did I at least manage to change the subject????
*cheeky grin*
Well, gee, thanks, Nursey but if you're doing it JUST for me then don't shave that thang. I've never really liked that; it kinda makes me feel like a child molester. Also what about nicks and cuts in connection with STD? Seems like it's not as safe.
Just trim it a little and let it go at that.
Hello. I actually found a hotel computer and a few moments!
I quickly read the comments here, and something really stuck out by fatso:
"just that 99.99% of women I boned wanted to have relationship with me and that pissed me off."
Quite honestly, this tells how much you don't know about women. To you, sex can be physical and nothing more. But it's rarely that way with women. Sure, there are some women who want only a physical relationship with a man, but I honestly think it's quite rare.
It sounds like what you want is a female body with a male mind. To be quite blunt, we're simply more picky when we have sex. If the most perfect male speciman walked up to me and wanted to have sex, I'd turn him down with no hesitation. To most women, there must be an emotional connection, as well, and I think this is what most men don't understand. That's why you have to be very careful with women because it's easy to break our hearts. You may give us special attention to get sex and often women interpret that as a sign that you are attracted to us in more than a purely physical sense. And that's why you probably have to buy sex, if sex and nothing more, is what you want.
A hint to understanding life is to think of how the other person may think, which may be completely different from how you think. It may also ease a lot of your frustrations.
fatso, you said, "I felt sorry for the guy and volunteered to move. It was difficult for him to squeeze in and out of the seat to begin with."
Would you have felt sorry for a woman in the same situation?
I'm confused because you seem to think that obese women are disgusting, yet you felt sympathy for this man. Is it possible that you are a misogynist? If not, your words don't mirror your feelings.
This new forum sucks. It's boring and has way too many posting glitches. BUT ... fatass is not a misogynist; he is a misanthrope. Misogynists hate women whereas misanthropes hate people in general. He is not representative of the average prostitute seeker.
I think some of the posting glitches relate to long posts. So I will cut this off and continue with another post that may provide further amplification.
DH
Hey Dickhead
If you will look in the top right hand corner of your screen you will see a little "X". PLace your mouse over this "X" and push the button on the other side of your mouse !!
Tryin' hard not to get frustrated with the new board. I have two possible roles on the board: 1) provide reports and info on hookers world wide, or 2) stir up as much shit as possible. Since I am dormant travel wise right now, I will try for #2.
A lot of studies and literature say that many, even a majority, of women, cannot climax from vaginal intercourse ("straight sex"). This is because:
A) Men are technically incompetent (don't know how to fuck).
B) Woman are uptight bitches.
C) Men are piggish and selfish and don't care if she comes or not.
D) Most men are physically inadequate (dick's not big enough).
E) Most men are physically inadeaquate (can't last long enough to satisfy the woman).
F) Modern post industrial society has messed up the gender roles so much that no one knows what to do, and with which, and to whom.
G) Modern post industrial society has led to a concentration on economic success, leading to a neglect of one's relationship and/or sex life.
H) Most people are working too hard to have energy for a sex life (see also #G).
I) The existence of prostitution leads to the commoditization of sex, alienating women and anesthetizing men.
J) Same as #I but the men are alienated and the women anesthetized.
K) Stress of post industrial life lowers libidos.
L) Global warming.
M) Jacking off is a superior sexual practice vs. involving anyone else.
N) All of the above.
O) None of the above/ too soon to tell/ something else completely/ too stupid to know or care / other / refuse to respond.
Any votes?
Originally posted by Beavis
Hey Dickhead
If you will look in the top right hand corner of your screen you will see a little "X". PLace your mouse over this "X" and push the button on the other side of your mouse !!
Yeah yeah Beav OK the forum doesn't suck that bad and I'm just frustrated with all the lost postings. It's free and free is good and I shouldn't complain. I try to help when I can and I don't know why I always manage to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) you off. But, I don't really care either. Look in the General Info section of Mexico. I recently posted something that might help your postings in particular.
PS, you always talk about how no one should pay too much and everyone should bargain so as not to fuck it up for everyone else. I basically agree but think about this: V = Q / P or "Value equals quality divided by price." Both are relevant.
USBabe
re: Would I do the same for a fat chick?
You bet. Why not? Yes, it is disgusting to let oneself grow so obese but it should not prevent us from practising random acts of kindness to a fellow human being. This is no different from me hanging out $1- to those "homeless" folks at street corners who claimed they are "looking" for work.
USBabe
Re: the comments on women you stated.
Thank you kindly for your comments. Let me be honest, I actually know women too well thus I have not been too bad with women. Bear in mind that, on this board, I speak from the bottom of my heart. I call this the id talk (as in Freud'psychoanalysis). Functioning in the corporate world or dealing with women, you are behaving and speaking in the politically correct approach (in Freud's terminology super ego and ego). To create an impression that you are fair minded, kind and the best of human being. The goal is to play the game to get what you want, i.e. overall kindness and nicety with calculated acts of mischievous nasty moves. Of course, once you get what you wanted you control the game. Bear in mind that women always has more strength in dealing with men in courtship, especially at the beginning and mid point of the game. fatso principle #1, one can only win when dealing from a position of strength. Since women always has the upper hand (i.e. strength), the only option is to play along to buy time such that once your get the booty, the balance of power is tilted toward you. As you so eloquently stated, after the sex women always come back for relationship, this is their nature. They can't suppress it. So, for men, you gotta be cool to play the subservient role until you get the sex and as men begin to get bored and the women wouldn't let you go........ now she will do everything you want.
I have a ton of work right now, so I can't make any long comments until later, but:
1) Welcome back US Babe
2) Nofatso, my e-mail address is justice4pm@hotmail.com
(All are invited to e-mail me for whatever reason)
3) Maybe the origin of your problem, Nofatso, is with your general outlook. Romance shouldn't be a game, because games always have winners and losers. There are some people who are not as socio-pathetic and take the idea of relationships seriously.
4) Dickhead, most men can't satisfy women because they don't care about their woman and/or they don't have the gift of empathy.
...I'll be back later...
From: The Happiest Man Alive
Just gotta say, Dickhead, that as always I admire your deft positioning as the burr in the saddle, and only wish I'd thought to take the role, though I'm clearly tempermentally unable to play it as well as you. Thanks as well for the misanthrope delineation, as it's a critical distinction and one often overlooked. And I'd give you my vote, but you left off "All of the above."
All that said, I've been reading along here for quite some time and have refrained from commenting partly because I found the whole "fat" discussion rather tiresome and mostly shooting ducks n a barrel, but also because it's been simply grand to see some movement in thought and shameless flirting in this thread based on the participation of a couple of female posters. I just want to note that this latter fact pretty well sums up the general problem men have with women, and with American women in particular -- we'll say any damn thing possible to get some attention, and then will be pissed off at ourselves for doing so.
And since the comment also stood out to me when I read it -- Nofatso, let's see, you want to sleep with various women and then be surprised/pissed off because they want a relationship with you? Cripes, even salesperson will try to establish a relationship with you if you buy from them frequently. If everything is a transaction then nothing is a human connection, and as miller2k aptly noted, if everything is a game then nothing is truly romance. That said, I think there needs to be a clear distinction here -- is the discussion about getting laid with American Women or having relationships with them, or both? Nofatso's approach clearly seems to be the first one, but many of the posts here are from the other two categories...
JZ, your wish is my command (within limits!) and I have edited my post to provide the "all of the above" option. Note, however, that this would indicate that both men and women are both alienated and anesthetized ... wait a minute, that sounds about right, at least for the US of A.
And thank you for your admiration. I call this my 6'5" 275 lb behavior. Imagine what a dickhead I would be if I really WERE a great big guy instead of a scrawny little mick with more guts than sense.
Here's an American woman anecdote to get us back on track. My two favorite places to hit on women (in the US) are the produce section of the grocery store and the gym. I've had this one gal at the gym on preheat for a while and Monday I asked her if she'd like to go to lunch. Her response (verbatim): "Does lunch just mean lunch?" I was SO tempted to educate her as to how whatever a man says to a woman in this situation, it means "I want to get into your pants," but settled for, "At least until we've actually HAD lunch, lunch just means lunch." So she said she'd think about it. Well, tough shit, I ain't asking again.
American gringo women are killer arsonists!
Evidence 1. Colorado Hayman fire, started by a woman. Check CNN.COm
Evidence 2. Arizon fire, according to NPR (National Public Radio - Morning Edition), was "accidentally" set by a woman hiker.
Eividence 3. Four Oregon firefighters died in traffic accident. The woman driver drove the firefighters to Colorado to fight the Hayman fire but had everyone killed (except herself) in the traffic accident. According to reports by Oregonian (the largest newspaper in Oregon), the woman was attempting to turn around to grab some ice cream from the back seat and lost control of the vehicle which resulted in 4 deaths. Well, having someone killed while in the process of getting fat is something new to me.
Dickhead.
See, I have been telling you. These gringo bitches are just ....bitches, ain't worth my spit on them. What the XXXX is the response, "is lunch just lunch?" Now, if you don't want to go out with Dickhead, just say, "hey Dick, thanks but I am seeing someone" (the white lie approach), or if you want to be 100% frank, say "hey Dick, thank you, it's truly flattering, but let's keep our friendship just at the gym". "is lunch just lunch?" XXXx that, tell her "no! *****, i am going to feed you lunch and you are going to suck my rooster..... ":) ha ha!
joe_zop
nofatso is sex for short term, as in less than a week only. i may "go out" with the female cannine a couple of times and then split quick. I don't do last night's pizza. Time out! This is ************* forum. Of course, we are dealing with short term sex, as in less than one week deal. If you want to talk about relationship, I have the Oprah site for you :) The thing I don't understand is, I read a lot about relationship on this site. Are you guys serious? First, looking for a wife in a ***** house? :), doesn't make sense.
again, guys, be careful with gringo women, they are going to burn you........ :)
Now, one more
CBGBConnisur
06-27-02, 03:51
nofatso and Dickhead:
I don't even bother with American women anymore. Of the women of the world they positively rank at the bottom in terms of fun, looks, and personality, down there with the British and Irish. By the way I'm guy who loves to have a relationship with a woman and not just sex contrary to what USBabe said. I find it hard to keep up with most American women, most women I know are often to obessed with their careers to pay attention to their romantic lives. On one occasion I left work in the middle of the day to buy my old girlfriend flowers and left them on her door, and she called me almost a week later to acknowledge that she got my flowers. She made an excuse that she was too busy to talk to me. What a b*itch!!! You try to do something sweet for someone and they just spit in your face. This is typical of American women. Often, when I go into a social mixer and get introduced to a woman all they talk about is their job and career and then they just keep asking me about my job and where I went to school and where I plan to be five years from now. It seems as if they are looking for a guy that has a lot of money and success or will have a lot of money and success. There's never any talk about one's loves in life like music or art, or places in the world. In other countries women seem more interested in me as a human being and not as a money making machine. I was in Hungary last year and I met this gorgeous lady who was just amazing. We went into a long conversation over our loves in life. She couldn't care less about what I did for a living and how much money I had, she was more interested in my passions and fantasies. This is the typical European lady. They are often less materialistic and often less selfish than US women. Another thing about her was that she was extremely beautiful, I mean twice as beautiful as some of the most beautiful American women. She had a sexual energy that was hot, I mean hot. At the same time, she came off as a soft hearted person who liked sensitive, gentle men. I myself am a nice guy and am really soft at heart. She really digged the fact that I'm a softie and not a macho jerk. Thats another plus for dating in Europe, women tend to find softness and sensitivity in a man sexy and irresistable. In contrast, most American women want a rugged, physically strong, and assertive macho man who always goes after what he wants and gets it. Another important aspect of this lady was that she was open minded, especially with regards to dating someone of a different race. I happen to be a Hispanic with dark features, I find that in America it is often difficult to date someone of another nationality. I used to have a girlfriend who was Irish-American, who often behaved differently, she wouldn't openly display affection and wouldn't give me eye contact when we were out in public. Also people gave us funny looks, which I found distressing since we lived together in a culturally diverse and socially liberal city. This Hungarian lady wasn't really concerned about my skin color. She didn't care that I was of a different nationality and culture from hers. On the contrary, she found me intriguing and exotic. I was able to be myself with this lady did not have to pretend to be someone that I am not. Just my own personal opinion on this issue.
Fatass, don't let the facts get in the way of your analysis. There were several survivors of that wreck in which the female firefighter was driving. Just compare the driving records of women and men, any way you want to, and women are safer drivers. You need to get your hand off your dick and your thumb out of your ass and take an elementary statistics course. Three non-randomly selected events do not make a useful sample. Plus, you ain't funny. Go soak your head in a tub of SlimFast.
CBGB, I hear you and I feel your pain. I have the opposite problem. I am pigmentationally challenged ofay white bread and prefer darker skinned girls, especially Hispanic girls. I have pretty good success getting them to go out with me but they are reluctant to bring me home to Mom and Dad. That is fine with me, great in fact, but what I don't like is the bullshit excuses they give when I know what's going on. Dickhead did not just fall off a turnip truck.
Man, I am really getting to like my Dickhead persona. It's like an alter ego of sorts. I live a double life as it is. By day, a short-haired, clean-cut, straight-looking white collar professional in a helping profession but secretly stoned most of the time. By night, a debauched, dissolute, deviant Dickhead. Then on my *****mongering vacations, a sedulous, serious slave to history, architecture, and culture by day. By night, a sexual sybarite seeking sensuous sylphs, curvaceous commercial concubines, and random rapacious roadside relief.
With apologies to Winston Churchill, I find American women to be a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, but foreign women to be almost as exciting as war and quite as dangerous. And like Sir Winston, I have nothing to offer a woman save blood, toil, tears, and sweat! Well, maybe a few other bodily fluids as well, but only as a reward for a job well done.
Hi CBGB,
Excellent posting and dead on correct. I, too, was startled by how genuine and wonderful women in Europe are and particularly those in Eastern Europe. It's a whole different reality there.
I honestly feel badly for all of the great guys in America who have to struggle with the overweight and bitchy women here. Until I began to hang out in Prague, I thought that this is how women naturally are. It also made me kinda sad because of all the years I've wasted on American women. Wish I could have all of those years and all of that money back.
Like you, American women are off my radar screen now and forever.
Dickhead
You should take some statistics. There are far more men driving then women. Don't tell me acturary science. Try this Mr. Head, call your State Farm tomorrow and tell them you no longer drive to work and on average, you only drive a couple thousand miles a year. Right there, you become a "safer" driver. So, when insurer states that "women are safer driver", it relates to acturary statistics that women drive much less than men and when they drive, they drive much shorter distance. However, when it comes to killer arsonists, (examples I stated), it's all women. Last but not the least, the accident in Colorado involved four deaths, isn't it? So, you want everyone to be killed before you are convinced that women are arsonist killers? Of course, I don't mind to meet you for lunch to educate you on this. That is truly a lunch and involves no rooster sucking :)
You didn't find me funny? Good! my intent is to save the huMAN race from these killer gringo women, you think this is Comedy Central? HELLOOOOOO! No wonder, the ***** said "is lunch just lunch...." Apart from statistics, you also need to learn spit on these bitches. :)
GBGB
You have just documented another crime against huMANity. That white canine disrespected you and she is a racist. When it comes to racism, gringo men and women are sure one from the same snake pit. Dark skin or fair skin hispanics, who cares? You were her date and she HAS to RESPECT you. Don't tell me you live in one of those "fly over states" or the south. Better move out. I have lived in many parts of the country, in terms of racial tolerance and interracial dating, I find the Pacific Northwest or Bay area the most tolerant. LA is not bad but still, tremendous racism in many areas. I am not hispanic or black but I can tell from my observation. So, if you are in those yahoo states, better move out. Also, in this internet age, racism like this truly unthinkable. This is what I will do GBGB. Next time you see a racist *****, don't confront her, just date her. Take her home, feed her, give her some good xxxx and then spit on her and kick her off your house. That's the best treatment for a racist canine. :)
Paddy.
You are right. Again lay the truth out simples verdade.
You have not mentioned one issue about gringo fat chicks. If you ever have a relationship with them, you have to worship them big time. I have know enough friends who are dating or married to gringo women (some are fat some aren't). One common theme is, whenever there is an important life choice, as in relocation for career, as in having babies, as in going places for vacation, some times even if the guy wants to bring me into the house for dinner..... all these the guy has to call in and ask for "permission". Now, that's the part I can't deal with. If I am the breadwinner of the family and I pay all the bills, when it comes time to relocate to better my career, I go! I don't have to plead with the canine and convince the canine. If I want to bring Joe home to join us for dinner, I will just call home, "hey, make additional portion for Joe, he is coming over for dinner..." Nope, all my buddies will be calling home like, "hi, honey, da da da da da can I bring Johnny home for dinner? would it mess up your schdule.... da da da??" I was like, are you a slave or a MAN? Stand up, be a MAN! The most amazing thing was last week, my work partner quit on me and left with his share of work, his excuse? Wife is got a cold and he is going home to take care of her. I am just thinking, if one of these days I got horny and wanted to go out and Fxxx some *****. Could I just leave my work to my partner stated that I am horny and need some bom bom? Gringo ***** ain't worth the toilet water...... :)
Good news for Modern MEN!
what this news story state is this. 1. preserve your asset and cash from your g/f or ex 2. women after 30 is like leftover pizza and 3. don't worry about age. as long as you keep your health and $$$, pussy are there ALL THE TIME. :) I am a happy man!
Study: 'Guys can afford to wait to marry'
June 27, 2002 Posted: 11:19 AM EDT (1519 GMT)
NEW YORK (Reuters) -- It's official. Men really are afraid of commitment.
Confirming what women have long known, an American study released on Wednesday shows men are dragging their feet on getting married.
Researchers say one of the biggest reasons that men are delaying marriage is that more and more couples are choosing to live together before marriage. As a result, sex -- traditionally one of the main reasons for men to marry -- is relatively easily available, they say.
"In a sense, with cohabitation he gets a quasi-wife without having to commit," said David Popenoe, co-director of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University in New Jersey.
"Another big thing in addition to cohabitation is that these men are very, very concerned about divorce. It's not getting your heart broken ... the worst thing that could happen is that somebody could take their money," Popenoe adds.
The preliminary findings report on the attitudes toward marriage of 60 unmarried, heterosexual men, between the ages of 25-33. The participants, from different religious, ethnic and family backgrounds, were from four major metropolitan areas in northern New Jersey, Chicago, Houston, and Washington, D.C.
Researchers say both men and women are putting off getting married. The average age for men's first marriage is now 27, the oldest in history, the study shows. That compares to the average age of 23 in 1960, Popenoe said.
For women, the average age of their first marriage has risen to 25, a full five years older than the 1960 average.
And giving women even more reason to be impatient that their boyfriends are dragging their feet, researchers say the trend favors the men.
"Guys can afford to wait to marry. The older they get, the better their chances in some ways of getting married, while for women it's the reverse," Popenoe said.
"Once a woman gets into her 30s, it's more likely that she will have to marry a man who was married earlier. It's more likely that she will marry a man who brings kids (into the marriage) and more likely that she will have a child by herself," Popenoe says.
Copyright 2002 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Gang: A buddy sent me this today and I thought it was both funny and pertinent.
[Begin quote] We always hear "the rules" from the female side. Now here are the rules from the male side. These are our rules! Please note... these are all numbered "1" ON PURPOSE!
1. Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down. We need it up, you need it down. You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.
1. Birthdays, Valentines, and Anniversaries are not quests to see if we can find the perfect present yet again!
1. Sometimes we are not thinking about you. Live with it.
1. Shopping is NOT a sport. And no, we are never going to think of it that way.
1. Crying is blackmail.
1. Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do not work! Strong hints do not work! Obvious hints do not work! Just say it!
1. We don't remember dates. Mark birthdays and anniversaries on a calendar. Remind us frequently beforehand.
1. Most guys own three pairs of shoes - tops. What makes you think we'd be any good at choosing which pair, out of thirty, would look good with your dress?
1. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.
1. Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That's what we do. Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.
1. A headache that last for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.
1. Check your oil! Please.
1. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an
argument. In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 days.
1. If you won't dress like the Victoria's Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.
1. If something we said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.
1. You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done. Not both. If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself.
1. Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials.
1. Christopher Columbus did not need directions, and neither do we.
1. The relationship is never going to be like it was the first two months we were going out. Get over it. And quit whining to your girlfriends.
1. ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.
1. If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that.
1. We are not mind readers and we never will be. Our lack of mind-reading ability is not proof of how little we care about you.
1. If we ask what is wrong and you say "nothing," we will act like nothing's wrong. We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the hassle.
1. If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer you don't want to hear.
1. When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine. Really.
1. Don't ask us what we're thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such topics as navel lint, the shotgun formation, or monster trucks.
1. You have enough clothes.
1. You have too many shoes.
1. Foreign films are best left to foreigners. (Unless it's Bruce Lee or some war flick where it doesn't really matter what in the world they're saying anyway.)
1. It is neither in your best interest or ours to take the quiz together. No, it doesn't matter which quiz.
1. Thank you for reading this; Yes, I know, I have to sleep on the couch tonight, but did you know we really don't mind that, it's like camping.
Dickhead
Hilarious, Dickhead. Too many here for me to choose my favorite, as they're all dead on. Wait, I can choose #1!
Sinanju Master
06-28-02, 01:01
god-damn!! i have two new heroes: nofatso and dickhead. it's in that order only 'cos nofatso posted his first, but not to say that dh is any less of a crusader against bs designed to keep us off balance and to belittle us simply because the bs works. a lot of these most recent posts are kinda eerie, 'cos it's almost as if a few of you peeked into my brain while i was asleep and posted it here before i awoke! dynamic duo (nofatso and dickhead), the guinness' are on me! lol
Part 1
Hello, I'm finally home, and it feels good! I have several comments, but I would like to say thank you for your kind acceptance in this forum. Obviously, the vast majority of you are guys and have probably been burned or disappointed with American women. It speaks well of you that you haven't written me off, as well!
Dick, I was surprised by your multiple-choice question about why the vast majority of women cannot achieve orgasm from vaginal intercourse. I don't speak about orgasms with my girlfriends too often (!), but there's one more possibility: the clitoris was not involved! I've never had a vaginal orgasm. In fact, I can't imagine that one exists! There are times when I love just straight intercourse with no clitoral stimulation. Of course I don't have an orgasm, but sometimes I just don't want to. I think sometimes men have problems understanding it, but sometimes a climax just isn't necessary for enjoyment (at least for me). However, if my clitoris is touched, watch out! I think, very generally, it probably takes women longer to become aroused and to have an orgasm, but once I'm on a roll, it's a major aerobic workout, and I'm not kidding. I love to have multiple orgasms! But they just won't happen if the clitoris isn't involved. I have no idea if I'm a rare case or like most women, but I know what does it for me!
Fatso, you said, "Functioning in the corporate world or dealing with women, you are behaving and speaking in the politically correct approach (in Freud's terminology super ego and ego). To create an impression that you are fair minded, kind and the best of human being. The goal is to play the game to get what you want, i.e. overall kindness and nicety with calculated acts of mischievous nasty moves."
Do you really think that most people are selfish and cruel? I don't. Maybe you'll think I'm naïve, but I do think that many, if not most people are fair-minded, kind, good human beings. I think our instincts are to protect and provide for ourselves, but to do so at the expense of others isn't just protective, it's cruel. I'm human and won't say I've never acted that way ever in my life, but I sure don't as a practice and I don't know many people who do. One thing that I've learned though is that sometimes people act the way we expect them to act. E.g., if someone is highly suspicious of me, I can sense that and unwittingly do something (that I normally wouldn't do) that makes me fit the mold that I was expected to fill.
Dick, I'm really sorry about the woman who was rude to you at the gym. You simply asked her out to lunch, not to donate a kidney! However, no one but she knows her motives. Maybe she was trying to string you along. Maybe she was trying to play hard-to-get. Or, maybe she wasn't interested but thought she was being polite by not giving you a definite no. I know the latter is actually more cruel than turning you down directly, but sometimes we don't think about that.
Fatso, what is a gringo woman? I've never heard the term before and am trying to figure his out.
Something else confuses me. There are literally millions of American women. There are beautiful, intelligent, loving ones and there are cold-hearted witches. And....the same can be said about the women of any country, any race, any religion, and any other group of women. Have you had the same exposure to women of other cultures that you've had to American women so that you can make an accurate assessment?
I remember as a child, visiting friends' houses for dinner or a sleep-over. Everything was always so perfect at the other house. No one ever fought or yelled or seemed to do anything bad. I always thought that every family was the Brady Bunch except mine. Then I grew up and found out that when visiting, hosts usually present their best sides. Maybe that is true when you visit women of other cultures, as well.
Maybe the same things that are said here about American women can be said of American men (or men of any other sub-group). There are some horrible men out there who have really burned and harmed women. However, I can't imagine any intelligent, reasonable woman who would place ALL men in the same category.
Another thought is that maybe some of those who think that all American women are cold-hearted just haven't been looking in the right places. Sometimes we get lazy (me, too!) and don't want to leave our comfort boundaries, whatever and wherever they are. However, when that happens, we can't expect any changes unless we expand our horizons. It would be great if everything we wanted was neatly packaged and set outside our doorstep! But it doesn't usually happen that way.
And.....sometimes the problem isn't the other "group," but it's us. I've eaten humble pie myself, and it isn't easily digestible, but life is easier and rosier after the meal.
(to be continued)
Part 1
Hello, I'm finally home, and it feels good! I have several comments, but I would like to say thank you for your kind acceptance in this forum. Obviously, the vast majority of you are guys and have probably been burned or disappointed with American women. It speaks well of you that you haven't written me off, as well!
Dick, I was surprised by your multiple-choice question about why the vast majority of women cannot achieve orgasm from vaginal intercourse. I don't speak about orgasms with my girlfriends too often (!), but there's one more possibility: the clitoris was not involved! I've never had a vaginal orgasm. In fact, I can't imagine that one exists! There are times when I love just straight intercourse with no clitoral stimulation. Of course I don't have an orgasm, but sometimes I just don't want to. I think sometimes men have problems understanding it, but sometimes a climax just isn't necessary for enjoyment (at least for me). However, if my clitoris is touched, watch out! I think, very generally, it probably takes women longer to become aroused and to have an orgasm, but once I'm on a roll, it's a major aerobic workout, and I'm not kidding. I love to have multiple orgasms! But they just won't happen if the clitoris isn't involved. I have no idea if I'm a rare case or like most women, but I know what does it for me!
Fatso, you said, "Functioning in the corporate world or dealing with women, you are behaving and speaking in the politically correct approach (in Freud's terminology super ego and ego). To create an impression that you are fair minded, kind and the best of human being. The goal is to play the game to get what you want, i.e. overall kindness and nicety with calculated acts of mischievous nasty moves."
Do you really think that most people are selfish and cruel? I don't. Maybe you'll think I'm naïve, but I do think that many, if not most people are fair-minded, kind, good human beings. I think our instincts are to protect and provide for ourselves, but to do so at the expense of others isn't just protective, it's cruel. I'm human and won't say I've never acted that way ever in my life, but I sure don't as a practice and I don't know many people who do. One thing that I've learned though is that sometimes people act the way we expect them to act. E.g., if someone is highly suspicious of me, I can sense that and unwittingly do something (that I normally wouldn't do) that makes me fit the mold that I was expected to fill.
Dick, I'm really sorry about the woman who was rude to you at the gym. You simply asked her out to lunch, not to donate a kidney! However, no one but she knows her motives. Maybe she was trying to string you along. Maybe she was trying to play hard-to-get. Or, maybe she wasn't interested but thought she was being polite by not giving you a definite no. I know the latter is actually more cruel than turning you down directly, but sometimes we don't think about that.
Fatso, what is a gringo woman? I've never heard the term before and am trying to figure his out.
Something else confuses me. There are literally millions of American women. There are beautiful, intelligent, loving ones and there are cold-hearted witches. And....the same can be said about the women of any country, any race, any religion, and any other group of women. Have you had the same exposure to women of other cultures that you've had to American women so that you can make an accurate assessment?
I remember as a child, visiting friends' houses for dinner or a sleep-over. Everything was always so perfect at the other house. No one ever fought or yelled or seemed to do anything bad. I always thought that every family was the Brady Bunch except mine. Then I grew up and found out that when visiting, hosts usually present their best sides. Maybe that is true when you visit women of other cultures, as well.
Maybe the same things that are said here about American women can be said of American men (or men of any other sub-group). There are some horrible men out there who have really burned and harmed women. However, I can't imagine any intelligent, reasonable woman who would place ALL men in the same category.
Another thought is that maybe some of those who think that all American women are cold-hearted just haven't been looking in the right places. Sometimes we get lazy (me, too!) and don't want to leave our comfort boundaries, whatever and wherever they are. However, when that happens, we can't expect any changes unless we expand our horizons. It would be great if everything we wanted was neatly packaged and set outside our doorstep! But it doesn't usually happen that way.
And.....sometimes the problem isn't the other "group," but it's us. I've eaten humble pie myself, and it isn't easily digestible, but life is easier and rosier after the meal.
(to be continued)
(part 2)
(Whoops, I'm sorry about the double post. When I first clicked on "submit," I received an error message, so I assumed that it didn't post. I was wrong!)
Something else to consider, and I know this is an old cliché, but sometimes grass really is greener on the other side. Who knows, there may actually be some men in the world who (oh no!) prefer American women! The problem is this: when you write off ALL women of one group, you're also writing off the good ones. You don't want to be put in the same category as men who have committed crimes and behaved horribly against women, do you? That's prejudice. Fatso, you mentioned somewhere about a racist woman, but really, is anyone any different if you're judging ALL American women by the actions of a few?
If you are going to judge all American women by the actions of a few, then I don't think you can blame women who judge all American men by the actions of a few, either. That's what the militant feminists do! You know you don't want that. Live by the standards that you expect of others.
It seems to me that a good approach is an optimistic, yet slightly reserved outlook. You don't want to wear your heart on your sleeve, but if you keep it forever buried, it will never surface.
Originally posted by USbabe
[
Dick, I'm really sorry about the woman who was rude to you at the gym. You simply asked her out to lunch, not to donate a kidney! However, no one but she knows her motives. Maybe she was trying to string you along. Maybe she was trying to play hard-to-get.
To clarify, I didn't think it was rude; I just thought it was strange. Playing hard to get is a possibility but that doesn't work for me as I am too lazy and cynical and just move on to the next prospect.
I don't fall in the group that says that all American woman are all those nasty things that fatass says they are. I just think they are by and large sexually repressed, sexually unskilled, and overly materialistic. Of course, I've only been to thirty-some countries so far and it's possible that by the time I'm done hitting them all, American women will rise above the median.
Babe, I don't know how much you've travelled, but if you've ever been to Latin America, I would think you would realize that people there are just plain friendlier, and the friendliness is less superficial. I can say the same thing for Oz and NZ as well. Five years from now I hope to be living in one of these places permanently and none of this will matter.
hello dick, since you were only asking her out for lunch, it is very strange that she said she would have to think about it. to me, what she was really saying was, "i have to think whether or not you're important enough to warrant my time." unfortunately, this kind of response does not help the rest of us!
i've never been to latin america, but i have traveled all over the us (as well as europe and asia), and i think the region has a lot to do with how friendly people are. in the south, very generally, people are extremely friendly, almost to a fault. yet in nyc and other major metropolitan areas, people are sometimes so guarded that it's hard to get to know anyone. i've never been to aus. or nz, so i don't know.
what i do think is harmful, however, are the generalizations that are taken to mean all of a specific group. (i'm not saying that you are necessarily doing this, however). when militant feminists scream that all men are just out to push women around and exert their dominance and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and pillage, blah, blah, blah, that hurts men like you. when some men say that all american women are selfish witches out to step on and ruin men, that hurts girls like me.
it's hard when someone has been stung many times, especially by one group of women (american). but guys who discount all american women because of it are pushing away the good ones, too. the guys who never give up, however, and have some optimism left are the ones who win.
oh, i have to make a comment about the toilet seat. how about everyone putting the lid down? unless it's being used for its intended purpose, do we really need a view of what's inside? besides, if it's left down, then whatever fell out of your hands in the bathroom bounces off the toilet seat lid and doesn't "drown."
;-)
Originally posted by USbabe
Oh, I have to make a comment about the toilet seat. How about everyone putting the lid down? Unless it's being used for its intended purpose, do we really need a view of what's inside? Besides, if it's left down, then whatever fell out of your hands in the bathroom bounces off the toilet seat lid and doesn't "drown." ;-)
Now, Babe, I think that is excessive. Putting BOTH parts down so that men and women alike must engage in time wasting practices? Surely Sir Isaac Newton or Ben Franklin or Mae West or whoever it was wasn't referring to toilet seats when they said "what goes up must come down"! Huh. If you think about it, that could refer to the penis as well.
I remember asking my mother when I was a wee lad why it was necessary to put the toilet seat down. She said, "Because ladies will fall in and drown." This was but the first in a long series of lies women have told me over the years. Fatass would probably say that the average American woman is far too wide for this to ever happen. Dickhead, of course, has less of an issue here but also did not flunk geometry.
Women are inefficient. Who needs laundry baskets? Isn't a washing machine just a big laundry basket? Who needs wardrobes or bureaus? Isn't a dryer just a big clothes dresser? Put the dirty clothes directly from your body into the washing machine and take the clean ones directly from the dryer and put them on your body. This is efficient, economical, and ecological.
Although I love women, I also think they are poorly designed. The intake is too close to the exhaust, and what engineer in his or her right mind would run a solid waste pipe through the middle of a major recreational area? To the god in whom I do not believe, next time don't put the shithouse so close to the snack bar.
But seriously, I agree that there is no such thing as a vaginal orgasm. Unfortunately, it is often difficult (awkward, uncomfortable, fatiguing) to maintain vaginal penetration with the penis while simultaneously stimulating the clitoris (and guys, it's CLIToris, not cliTORis!). Fortunately, this is one problem that can easily be licked.
That gets me to the next issue. What is all of this I hear from women about "fear of losing control" during sex? Aren't you SUPPOSED to lose control during sex? Aren't control and orgasms somewhat mutually exclusive? Isn't that why I tied you to the bed posts in the first place?
Now to pose a question for the audience: If men and women achieve true equality, would that make marriage an anachronism? (Fatass, you can look it up!)
Your loyal servant,
Dickhead
SinjuMaster
greeting to my friends. don't worry about who is first or second. let Dick go first. I am not into ranking but into having fun. This is like calling Michael Savage and blah blah blah. who cares?
USBabe
wrong again. From here on out, your name will be Grasshopper, no more USBabe. Let the ZenMaster enlighten you, you are wrong so many times and ZenMaster is going to save you. Fact is, only a minority few, may be one in ten, in the womanhood are real nice. 9 out of 10 gringo ***** suck. OK, you may be the only one who is nice but then I don't know you. If you are UFC, then you are still the "9"s.
human nature is evil? you bet. human nature by itself is very evil. talk to any religious person (I am not), they will tell you that human nature is evil. talk to any corporate CEO, they will tell you so. i was reading jack welch of GE's on corporate management, you can see he expects most of his workers as lazy, low motivation and slacking, thus he institutionalized a stringent corporate governance to keep track. same with Andy Grove, co-founder of Intel, he believes most people are mindless, lazy and thus devised a system and policy to control, to manage..... both gentlemen created two of the most successful enterprises in american history. look at the CEOs of worldcom, enron, imclone, tell me they are not evil. gringo women (when it comes to their attitude with men) are evil. women are more evil than men in the sense that when men committed evil act, they know they are evil doers (to quote the prez), for women, most would gauge their evil deeds as something normal, as something moral and kind. case in point, the Hayman Fire evil doer. She would gauge herself as an abused ex-spouse and that her ex- wronged her.........
the toilet seat. OK, i will leave it down for you. question is, what do i get in return? suck my rooster?
the South is friendly? get real!! friendly to you may not be friendly to a minority person. a buddy of mine from the bay area was badly beaten in a MS town. reason, he is gay. my african american friends who lived in the south told me about the blantant racism a person of color experience in the south until today, year 2002. yeah, friendly, when pigs fly. Personally I lived in Texas for a few years and I have observed numerous acts of overt racism and intolerance to minorities, including against gays. So, Babe, wake up and look around, if you need eye glasses, go to LensCrafters (yes, they paid me handsomely for this endorsement). Yes, I am a left wing liberal libertarian. Left wing liberal, when it comes to social policy, as in anti discrimination, anti guns, libertarian when it comes to my pocket book - STOP STEALING MY MONEY, ALL THE POOR PEOPLE OUT THERE GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS COUNTRY!! yes, I love Michael Savage but I think he is too liberal for me sometimes.
alright guys. i have to leave town for BabeLand. See you back here in august. have a nice and safe 4th. be careful out there cos the bitches are going to burn you like they burn colorado and arizona. and remember always, Hold on to that wallet when you see a ***** approaching you !! :) :)
Dick, I like your intellect and sense of humor. You don't write for a living, do you? Oh wait, I believe you said you were in a helping profession during the day but are usually stoned. Okay, I have it. You're a psychoanalyst for militant feminists and misogynists, and you have to stay stoned to keep yourself from losing your mind from all the incessant whining. I knew it!
What goes up must come down....well, does that apply to salaries and egos?! If so, I've paid my dues, thanks.
No, no, women aren't inefficient. Our job is to civilize society! I'm not calling you Neanderthals at all, but if you've ever seriously studied sociology or anthropology, you'd know what I mean. Of course, you want to roam from cave to cave to check out all the cute little loincloths, but cavewomen needed you to protect them and bring them food while they grew little cavemen to propagate the species. Instead of duking it out with other cavemen over who had what rights, women wanted laws and more civilized ways of getting along. Together, they formed families and clans and from there, cities grew. And to think, there are probably still some men today who probably still drink from the milk carton; for shame! ;-)
As for our design, I'm not too disappointed, although I wish men would be a bit more understanding about the frequency and duration of the time we spend in the ladies' room. Please remember that you don't have to deal with that "monthly" time or hosiery! Really, it takes extra time. And how on earth can you go hours and hours and hours without using one at all? I'm in awe, really, but when I need to go more frequently, it isn't to upset you, I promise! It would be kind of cool to just whip out the equipment without having to remove any clothing and be done with it, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way for us.
You said, "Unfortunately, it is often difficult (awkward, uncomfortable, fatiguing) to maintain vaginal penetration with the penis while simultaneously stimulating the clitoris" Do you mean that you're trying the stimulate the clitoris with your "member" or your finger? Only rarely has a man been able to do it only with his member. Usually he or I just use a finger, and that works quite well! As for losing control, I've never had that complaint. I don't have sex with a man until I know him very well, and by that time, I'm not afraid of showing vulnerability with him. And yes, that does include being tied to the bedposts!
By the way, I think "equality among people" is an oxymoron. If we were all equal, we'd all be robots of one another! If I have the same education, experience, skills, and job position that you do, then of course I should be paid the same as you. But that doesn't make us equal. I'm not a man and don't want to be treated like one. I have some advantages that you don't have in life, and you have some advantages that I don't have. No legislation will change that. I'll bet you speak differently to your male friends than your female friends. Personally, I like it that way. Men and women think differently (and of course all men don't think the same, and all women don't think the same), and insisting that there are no differences between us, except for "plumbing," is asking for trouble. Personally, I'll opt for respect rather than equality.
CBGBConnisur
06-28-02, 17:31
USBabe, I might agree and disagree with you. There are many nice American women out there, in fact most American women are nice then again maybe not, but for certain the majority of American women have an attitude towards sex that is rather puritan but at the same time liberal. Liberal and puritan create a bizarre paradox. Here's an example, a women dresses up sexy to go to work and men make passes at her on the bus. She ignores all the advances and stares and sticks her nose up and whispers to herself, "These guys are pervs!!" If she wore a nice dress, a rather sexy one at that, what else did she expect??? If you go to a public place and show off the best parts of your anatomy, any man who considers himself human will take notice of you. I know from the social scene that a lot of women in America like to tease men which I find rather annoying. I have had women make friendly passes at me and then it leads to absolutely nothing. I was with a woman last week and we started kissing and all of a sudden out of no where she pulls away and says "Sorry!!! I got to go. I'll see you later." She has not returned any of my calls since. There is a major factor that allows women to tease men and get away with it, there are simply not enough beautiful women in the US. Lets face it when I go out maybe one in ten women I see on the street or in the office or in another place of gathering is attractive(7 or better). The fact that sexy American women are so few in numbers leads men to make a big deal out of them, and therefore the guys compete for the woman's favor. This competition among men makes it easy for an attractive American women to set minimum standards and reject men. The attractive American women knows shes hard to find and therefore she has more leverage over the potential suitor. In Europe, its a different ballgame, there are so many gorgeous women, in fact so much that men don't a big deal out of it The attractive European woman is easy to find. So therefore European women don't tease and play games with guys because they cannot. Its all supply and demand. This is a fact. In Europe, if a woman makes the move, thats means the man is going to get some hot sex. For example, in France, if a lady tongue kisses you, that is a prelude to sex. After experiencing romance and sex with European women I can just testify that American women don't satisfy me anymore. I don't have the energy, strength,patience, and perserverance to run through hoops to get sex from a woman in the States which in terms of quality and quantity is below that found in Europe. In Europe, sex is far easier, and far better, and far cheaper, and not as heartbreaking.
CBGB, I think how the man makes a pass at a woman makes a huge difference. If a man just grabs her rear, that really is inappropriate! However, if he smiles but keeps his hands to himself, then it's entirely different. A woman who takes offense at a man whistling at her is obviously giving mixed signals.
What exactly do you mean by the word "attractive?" I mean, are you talking about genetics or how a woman dresses? I'm just speculating, but I don't think there's probably a huge difference in genetics. However, I also don't think it's a secret that European women (generally) do dress better than American women, but generally doesn't mean always! Also, in general, I think Europeans are more slender than their American counterparts, but I also think that Americans have better dental and overall health than Europeans. And it's important to realize that unless you live in Europe, you're probably seeing Europeans at their best. How many European women have you seen weeding gardens, washing cars, cleaning out attics, and so forth? You probably see them in the workplace or in clubs or out on the streets, shopping.
I'm not saying that American women or European women are any more or less attractive than the other. But to make an intelligent comparison, you'd have to compare a HUGE number of them and also compare them in equivalent settings. And, if you've been jaded by a group, you're probably not going to look at them objectively, either.
Something I've noticed that confuses me: When European women give you sex, they're lauded for their openness and beauty. When American women give men sex (without much effort), they're called sluts! What's with this?
I'll tell you why some (I can't speak for all) American women won't give you sex. Many of us want to fall in love and get married. Men want to think they're special, and that a woman has pride in her body and doesn't just give a piece of it to everyone, that she's saving herself for a special man. Therefore, he's going to opt for a less sexually experienced woman nearly every time. So, a woman who puts out may be popular on the dating scene, but almost never for marriage. Do you really want the mother of your child to have had sex with dozens of men?
We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Nicely said CBGB... your supply and demand arguement is one that I have noticed myself over the years. As more and more women become fat/lazy/bitchy, there are less women who are attractive to men... thus meaning women can have their pick of the litter. Men also seem to have no judgement of their self worth. If you walk up to an attractive girl on the street, while wearing a wife beater t-shirt and ripped jeans, have no job, and a sport a big gut then you're going to get shot down. These seem to be the guys who do the most bitching when they can't get a "quality" girlfriend.
Miller... When you first started posting I thought you were a self righteous dickhead (heh heh)... as I read your posts more I find myself agreeing with you on many points. Many men are spineless, or just blind when it comes to women.
nofatso... you could learn a few things from Miller. You seem a bit bitter to me and women pick up on that in about 2 seconds. Check out that heartless-bitches website I posted a while back for some help.
USbabe... I was pleasantly surprised to see another articulate woman (besides RN) here after my vacation. Perhaps you could convince some of your friends to join us and discuss their experiences. I think they would also be warmly welcomed and maybe we can all learn a few things from each other. In response to your question of what a "Gringo" is... As I understand (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) it is a descriptive, in a derogatory manner, word attached to white people by Mexicans. Much like a southerner calling a northerner a "Yankee".
I'm from big city Canada and I now live in Florida. People here are better at the daily pleasantries but inwardly are no more or less friendly than anywhere else I've travelled to. This so called "Southern Hospitality" is an old-school myth that is being perpetuated by tourism officials. I've also noted that there are many more "looser" men living here than in the north and consequently the women are more distrustful of them. But don't get me wrong... there are plenty of trailer park girls to go around too.
I'm dating an "American Woman" at the moment and am quite happy with her. There are some sexual issues between us, mostly because I'm a hedonist and she was a sunday school girl. She has supported an observation of mine, and that is that the best women tend to be those who were raised in small town america (she was). I've found that city girls tend to be very superficial, materialistic, and unreasonable in their attitudes towards men and life in general.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RN
Just for you Dickhead......
*Turning around*
*Bending slowly over the bed and raising my skirt*
OOPS...it seems I forgot to put underwear on......
And what's this?? It's a shaved...pink...NOT obese...definately NOT lazy...
....PUSSY! LOL
Ok, so it's Australian pussy not American pussy and the topic at hand is American pussy (or lack thereof), but did I at least manage to change the subject????
*cheeky grin*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dickhead
Well, gee, thanks, Nursey but if you're doing it JUST for me then don't shave that thang. I've never really liked that; it kinda makes me feel like a child molester. Also what about nicks and cuts in connection with STD? Seems like it's not as safe.
Just trim it a little and let it go at that.
sheese!... what a dickhead... nothing but criticism. I'll take your pink little shaved friend Rub... but you'd better be careful... I still have that oral fixation thing going on...
FU, I agree small town gals are nicer, but would say they tend to be less venturesome and somewhat more narrow minded. BTW, you meant there are more "loser" men down South, not more "looser" men, right? Cuz how would you know about the latter!?! Didn't mean to criticize RN, just the shaved beaver's not my thing. I think Rubbie started the whole nicks and cuts discussion in re eating potato chips and such, a while back, so I thought I'd yank on her chain a little. I believe the Aussies call that "letting the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) out."
Babe, thanks, but no, I am not a writer per se, although I do a lot of writing at my job. And as far as the awkward thing meant, it applies to both the phallus and the phalanges. I find I can stimulate the clitoris with the phallus during intercourse using certain techniques I decline to share (Dickhead is rather selfish), but the positions are awkward and difficult to maintain for too long. And, when using the phalanges on the clitoris while the phallus is inserted, I often fall victim to the "pat your head while rubbing your tummy" syndrome (Dickhead is not the most coordinated individual on the planet).
PS, I never studied anthro but I have a minor in sociology. My particular interest was stratification.
DH
CBGBConnisur
06-28-02, 23:51
USBabe, I have traveled and worked in Europe extensively over the past few years. I have also lived in some of the most cosmopolitan and glamorous US cities. (I spent 4 years in California living in both San Francisco and Los Angeles), I also go to Miami frequently, and I have lived most of my life in New York City. I have also been to Texas, Georgia, and the Carolinas. In Europe, I have been all over, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Prague, Budapest, everywhere. Over the years, I have seen HUGE numbers of women, and living in NYC, you do see HUGE numbers of them, you also see HUGE numbers of them in the European cities I have mentioned. The cities I have lived in (NY, LA, SF, and Miami) happen to be considered the top 5 cities in the United States to meet and see beautiful women, NY is the fashion capital of America, Miami has its large latin population, LA is closely connected with Hollywood. So these are the most glamorous cities in America. I have noticed that in every city with the exception of Miami, no more than one in ten women I saw I would consider attractive, no more and no less. In Miami, the ratio is more favorable, its about 1/4th of the population. I have met women at health clubs, in offices, at restaraunts, at bars, at discos, at shopping malls,at parks, at colleges, at beaches, suburbs, and places of worship. In Europe I have met them in all of these types of locales, health clubs, restaurants, shopping areas, discos, parks, beaches, discos, university campuses, bars, in suburbs of cities, and churches. In my comparison of the two areas I have found over 3 out of every four European women I encounter to be attractive. Personally walking down the Champs Ellysees in Paris last year I saw more attractive women in 5 minutes than I do in 5 weeks on the Champs Elysees' New York equivalent, Midtown Manhattan between Park Avenue to Avenue of Americas to Times Square. In central Amsterdam I saw more beautiful women than I do in the Greenwich Village - Soho Section of lower Manhattan. On the Riviera, I see more beautiful women than I do in South Beach Miami and Malibu California. Another thing when I meant by making passes I did not mean grabbing a woman's rear end or shouting something obscene. We live in a civilized society, what I meant is that I have seen men make eye contact and give smiles to women they find attractive in public areas of gathering, and often the women themselves seem touched off by the fact that some strange man is making eye contact with them. This is just absurd!! What the hell did they expect??!! When I was in Europe, I would often see women trying to make eye contact with me, and if I did the same I would usually get a smile from them. Even in a big and bustling places like Paris or Frankfurt, if I simply just looked at a women, gave a hello, and smiled I would get a return smile from her. I've seen this all over the continent of Europe, women are just plain friendlier than they are in the States. Another thing, after spending a lot of time in Europe, when I returned to the States, I could not help but notice how fat and pale most American women are. Sorry USBabe, Europeans simply do it better. :)
CBGB, I was in Paris three times last year, so maybe you saw me! Or, maybe only the beautiful women go to Europe. ;-)
You've lived in and visited cities, but have you ever been to many smaller areas? Believe it or not, a lot of top models come from small areas (both in the US and Europe).
However, I'm still confused as to what you mean specifically by attractive , a person's genetics or how she is dressed (and how her hair is done, and things like that). I can't argue at all with the opinion that American women are generally a lot more casual than European women. I'm not sure how we got that way. But, please be careful in typecasting women, because a beautiful American woman just might walk right on past you, but if your mind is already made up that her simply being American means that she's unattractive, you're severely limiting your opportunities.
Unfortunately, as an abundant nation, I don't think there's any doubt that there are more obese people (men, as well as women!) in the US. And we're probably more pale. But on the other hand, if you compare the "average" middle-aged American woman with the "average" middle-aged European woman, the American woman frequently looks much younger. Sun is very damaging and aging to skin (as is smoking, which Europeans do a lot more than Americans).
Do you know that Christie Brinkley is almost 50?! It's incredible. However, believe it or not, she is an American woman.
However, instead of comparing American women to European women, how about just enjoying women because they're women?! Can you imagine women saying that European men were better lovers, better-looking, and much nicer than American men? I bet you'd feel defensive because you were being lumped together with everyone.
Prejudice and type-casting closes off far more doors than it opens.
Originally posted by USbabe
Can you imagine women saying that European men were better lovers, better-looking, and much nicer than American men? I bet you'd feel defensive because you were being lumped together with everyone.
Gee, well in point of fact I've seen that happen repeatedly. I agree with your point about generalization, USBabe, but it happens on both sides of the fence. I've had friends -- truly nice guys -- who couldn't get the time of day from the same women who suddenly started drooling when a foreign accent was in evidence. Doesn't matter if to us the guy was an obvious bozo; to her, heck, maybe he's literally a prince!
I do think there are two rather natural tendencies at play - and I think both men and women indulge. First, there's a sort of exoticism that kicks in when someone's from a different culture. It's as if they're somehow going to fill the void that's not previously been filled, and whether they actually will or won't gets obscured because you've got to take time figuring them out. The second is something my friends and I used to call "new town syndrome" -- the fact that when you go somewhere else for a time you simply see more beautiful people. (Happens when you buy a new car, too -- you suddenly see a bunch more on the road.) I think it's something in our antennaes, how we imagine ourselves operating in the new place as opposed to our normal lives.
Underlying everything in this thread, however, is one very clear truth in the midst of all the other stuff (some of which is rather silly) and that's the fact that American women in general absolutely do treat men differently from the way women do in other countries. It may because they've got more equality than in other places, they're more independent, self-absorbed, paranoid, strong, whatever. But the fact is that men don't get the same level or degree of attention when talking to or being with most American women as they do elsewhere. The messages are essentially, "I don't need you" and "it's your job to keep me but not the other way around" and, as this thread demonstrates, those messages are very much understood and the feeling has become mutual.
Right on, JZ. Remember that bumper sticker that was going around a while back: "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"? That encapsulated the sentiment quite nicely. SAnother symptom of this sad syndrome is the way single women are having children on their own. I have yet to see this outside of the US, Canada, and the wealthy countries of northern Europe. Really, I think this should be a last resort and not just another way to propagate the species. Actually, I think it's selfish. My niece did this and she could easily have a guy but says that a relationship would interfere with her career :(
The kid, now seven, is having a lot of emotional problems (besides from being the biggest sissy you ever saw in your life), which brings us back to the old adage: "Spare the rod and spoil the child."
Hi Joe, the "exoticism" of another culture is definitely at play, at least in part. I'm not ashamed to admit that a foreign accent touches a few sensitive spots in my body that a plain old American accent won't! The road runs both ways in that sense. I'd much rather take a vacation in Europe than a camping trip to my local park; wouldn't you?
I won't argue that, IN GENERAL, women treat men differently in the US, but here's another slant. It's very true that American women can probably economically make it on their own better in the US than almost anywhere else. Maybe some of the foreign women must rely on men economically or they'll never get ahead. In some countries, sadly enough, women aren't even thought of as human. Women in some third world countries are killed if they so much as talk back to their husbands. They're treated like cattle. I certainly hope no one here supports that kind of treatment of women. In other words, women in other cultures sometimes have no choice because they must rely on men.
I can't argue that some American women are very arrogant, self-centered witches. But, in some ways, they wouldn't become that way if men didn't allow it. I'm not putting all of the blame on men at all! But I've seen both men AND women put up with shoddy treatment, and at a guess it's because of a lack of self-esteem. The US is the land of plenty. I'm almost certain that no one posting on this forum is lacking in any comfort material possessions, let alone basic food and shelter. Sometimes some of life comes so easily that we take much for granted. And we become spoiled -- both men and women. Perhaps in other cultures, people appreciate more what they have because it isn't as plentiful. Many women in the US can fully support themselves, even in lavish lifestyles. How many foreign women can say the same thing? I'm sure some can, but my guess is that more American women are able to become self-sufficient than foreign women.
I'm not going to rant and rave about American men, but I'll tell you one thing that I've observed about European men that I haven't observed quite so often in American men. Often, European men seem more protective of women and not so afraid of us. I'm approached much more often in Europe than in the US. Unfortunately, some of the bad experiences that men have encountered here have made some men less likely to approach women. Very generally, men take rejection so personally in the US, and in Europe, men seem to find it par for the course but usually don't let it upset them. Both men and women in the US tend to overanalyze situations. I'll give an example.
This past winter, I was running on an indoor track at the gym. I had on a Walkman and was immersed in deep thought and was relatively impervious to everything around me. As I was about 20 meters past a man, it just dawned on me that he said something to me as I passed by him! Since I was pondering something, I'm pretty sure my eyebrows were furrowed and I looked totally unapproachable. The next time around, he was gone. I didn't see him for a few more days, but when I did, he totally ignored me. I felt so bad that he thought I was being rude to him, so I actually walked up to him and said something like, "I was on the track the other day when I passed by you. I think you said something to me, but I was so deep in thought that it didn't even register with me until later that you said something! I just wanted you to know that I didn't mean to be rude to you at all."
His reaction was something like I had just handed him a million dollars. He said he shrugged it off and it was no big deal, but the way he treated me after I explained the situation was the difference between night and day. I could tell that his perceived perception of me bothered him greatly.
The reason that I mention this is that sometimes things just aren't always as they appear. I have no doubt that the guy was thinking pretty much along the thoughts of many of you here -- that I was just arrogant and rude and snubbing him. But I wasn't! I was completely preoccupied and would have acted no differently if it were anyone else or even if there wasn't anyone there at all.
We can't change the behavior of others. But we can change our own behavior. If you want to attract successful, attractive people, then you have to be someone that successful, attractive people are attracted to! I dislike whining from others a lot. I usually avoid people like that and instead usually hang out with people who have more optimistic views on life. I like American men, but some of them are very unattractive because of their views on life. And I like foreign men, but some of them are very unattractive because of their views on life.
If you expect American women to be (whatever negative images you have), then you probably won't be disappointed. But really, don't you deserve better in life? I do, and I insist on it!!
Dick, you said, "Another symptom of this sad syndrome is the way single women are having children on their own"
If you're looking for an argument from me, you'll be disappointed! I completely agree. SOME women think that the only valuable part of a man is his sperm, and the problem with that is that children are paying the price. Both a mother and a father are needed to raise children. Sometimes unplanned pregnancies occur, but to plan a child out-of-wedlock is very selfish.
But again, not ALL American women think this way! Some of us actually like men. In fact, some of us actually like men a lot! But if you (in plural form) insist on judging all American women based on the actions of a few, you'll never find out who we are. :-)
Oh, I wanted to say to FedUp, thank you for explaining what a gringo is! I had a feeling it wasn't exactly an endearing term.... I actually did show this site to two of my friends, but they immediately dismissed it saying that these guys already had their minds made up and that nothing anyone said or did would make any difference. I really hope to prove them wrong! I think that the day I close my mind to new information is the day I quit living on the planet.
CBGBConnisur
06-29-02, 04:08
so, you were in paris last year three times!!! whoopee!!! i never talked to any americans while there, i spotted a few here and there, but, you know what? the ones i saw happened to be the archtypical fat americans. you really think i would be able to spot you in a city of 10 million people?? who the fuck do you think you are? you obviously sound like a ?itch so there is no need for me to talk to you anymore. by the way those beauties i saw i could identify 100 percent as french or european, they obviously were not speaking english. it doesn't matter what i define attractive to be, you're just complicating things like a typical american ?itch!!! too bad for you, that i am letting other men know about the opportunities to meet women abroad so they won't have to put up with the shit that bitches like you give us men. fuck you. enjoy your vibrator.
Babe, I wasn't looking for an argument as my position is rather unassailable! But, I don't think most of the guys on this board are judging American women based on "a few," but rather we are judging based on the MAJORITY of our experiences. I have thirty years of sexual experience with American women and there have been more than a few good experiences but the majority have been far inferior to my average experience with non-American women. I think that's the point that most of us are trying to make, in our own inarticulate, insenstitive, Cro-Magnon fashion. It is, after all, somewhat of a numbers game. In my field, we use a thing called "expected value." If you are not familiar with this, it basically means you have to multiply the value of each possible outcome by the probability of its occurring. Here's an example.
Dickhead meets a seemingly nice woman and is thinking about asking her out. Possible outcomes with values and probability:
1). Woman tells him to F.O.A.D. Value NEGATIVE $500 (damage to Dickhead's delicate psyche), probability 20%.
2). Woman says, "Sure, call me some time," and then gives a fake phone number. Value NEGATIVE $250 (some damage to psyche plus time is money), probability 15%.
3). Woman says yes, they go out, there is no chemistry, and nothing happens. Value NEGATIVE $100 (guy always has to pay), probability 25%.
4). Woman says yes, they go out, they hit it off, they go out again, and still nothing happens. Value NEGATIVE $200, probability 20%.
5). Woman says yes, they go out, they have sex, and then the woman acts strange, gives vague excuses, etc., and it never happens again. Value $100 (average value of average sex to the average Dickhead), probability 15%.
6). Woman says yes, they go out, they have sex many times, and then there is an ugly and painful breakup. Value varies from negative a whole bunch to positive quite a bit, with a mean value of zero; probability 5%.
These are the only outcomes I have personally experienced, although in #6, "many times" has lasted up to seven years.
Expected value of asking an American woman out = (-500 x .2) + (-250 x .15) + (-100 x .25) + (-200 x .2) + (100 x .15) + (0 x .05) = NEGATIVE $187.50.
And, I can get a hooker for less than $187.50 pretty much anywhere except the United States. Therefore, I'm better off even if the subsequent sex is WORTHLESS!
Dickhead can be romantic at times but at heart is practical and pragmatic like most men. Plus, the older I get the more valuable my remaining time becomes (I always thought I'd die young but now it's too late!)
Of course this is riddled with sarcasm as usual, but hopefully I made some sort of point.
"CB - GB" gives me the "heebie jeebies." Way, way out of line.
Amen Dickhead -- CBGB, c'mon!
USbabe -- absolutely, I'd rather travel elsewhere. I've had American culture stuffed down my throat my entire life, and it's like going to a restaurant where there's only one thing on the menu. Might be great, but you yearn for something different. I dearly love immersing myself in different scenarios and cultures because I learn a lot about and can better appreciate my place in the world. And one of the things travel does is gives you a sense of context for what happens around you -- you can see other perspectives and approaches, which is precisely why a lot of guys here have are complaining about the meal that's constantly set before them.
I agree with you absolutely that there's a power inequity in many countries in terms of economics, but there's more to the equation than that. Clearly none of us are advocating mistreatment of women, or wives committing ritual suicide on the death of their spouses or any of that. But relationships in other countries are simply very often founded on different foundations. Yes, in places it may be based on a male-dominated societal model, but it's also present in various places where matriarchy is strong. Some of it is purely and simply a core understanding of how others ought to be treated, and, frankly, this is where things in this country too often fall short.
Let me give you an example. One of my best friends had his marriage of twelve years fall apart a little over a year ago. Fine, that happens, and he wasn't always a saint, nor was she. I'd personally not want to be married to either of them, though they're both my good friends. But here's the part that was absolutely galling -- she signed a year-long lease on an apartment, moved out, and only then told him she was going, and that she wasn't really sure whether it was permanent or not -- she wanted to get back together with someone she'd had a fling with long ago when she was in the peace corps, and she wanted my friend to not only be okay with that, but to basically wait until she figured out whether or not she was coming back. She -- get this -- forbade him to see anyone else while she was gone, and got very upset with him (and with me, I might add, when I advised him to tell her to take a flying leap) when he wouldn't agree to put his life on hold while she basically decided his future. He pressed her to set a shorter timeline, saying that a year was just not reasonable, which she refused to do, and then basically said, fine, it's over, I'm not going to agree to give you permission to make me a cuckhold dangling on a string.
(I should note that this friend's first wife -- another friend, now dead, another dear and wacky woman -- cornered me many years ago and asked me point-blank what I would do in her position. Her position at the time was knowing that the two above were deeply involved in each other. I said to her that if it were me I'd give him an ultimatum and if it weren't heeded, I'd change the locks and throw the bum out. She changed the locks the next day.)
So here we are a couple of months ago, a year later in the process. They are divorced, he's dating, her old flame turned out to be the same immature idiot he was when they were in Tonga, and she's filled with bitterness at my friend, who she holds responsible for the profound emptiness and loneliness that now fills her life, because he was unreasonable. Me, I get to listen to her cry about it and not only not understand what went wrong, but still be unable to comprehend that the whole process wasn't all completely about her.
I have seen this exact same kind of behavior time and time again from various female friends, who have thrown away men who these women clearly acknowledge are the loves of their lives over the most idiotic kinds of things -- everything from one guy having the temerity to actually want to get married after six years of an intense (and on his part absolutely worshipping) relationship to one woman who dumped the guy she'd been with for a year because he spit on the sidewalk repeatedly one week because he had a sinus infection (she simply couldn't be with someone who did that.)
This goes beyond being self-centered or being b*tches -- this is about being self-destructive in terms of relationships. It's not about "allowing" certain kinds of behavior -- good lord, some of this stuff is far beyond predictability or sense. I personally don't have the same completely negative view of American women as many here do in terms of thinking of all of all as terrible and hopeless, but I do believe that there's something generally wrong here.
You might be right about American men and women overanalyzing things, but in terms of taking rejection too seriously (and your example on at the gym) I'd simply say that when one is kicked where it hurts repeatedly one tends to cover up so as not to take the full force of the next blow. It's a survival instinct.
Just to be clear about where I'm coming from -- I'm someone who's been in a relationship for forever, fairly happily for the most part, and I don't expect perfection from anyone. Lord knows I fall far short in that regard. But if anyone is to end up at all happy in the male-female jousting process, some degree of equity and clarity must be present in the rules.
The men I know who wreck and ruin their relationships do so in the usual classic ways of catting around or being immature louts, etc., but the difference is that they usually are willing to take the blame fairly immediately for screwing things up. Not so with the women, for whom that process may take years, if it ever happens, and this is a very key difference.
(And, btw, let me also thank you for your presence and reasoned responses, and for managing to ignore most of the baiting that goes one here.)
CBGBConnisur
06-29-02, 15:50
USBabe you said
"But on the other hand, if you compare the "average" middle-aged American woman with the "average" middle-aged European woman, the American woman frequently looks much younger. Sun is very damaging and aging to skin (as is smoking, which Europeans do a lot more than Americans). "
What a bunch of bullshit!!! The average middle aged American lady more attractive than a middle aged European lady???? Christie Brinkley almost 50?? I'm sure a plastic surgeon had something to do with it. If you want to meet a poor plastic surgeon, go to Europe. Plastic surgery in Europe is rare. Okay, what about Sofia Loren??? She's much older and seems to defy age. One of things I've noticed about Europeans is that they often look young for their age, especially the French, they defy aging better than anyone in the West. While in Paris I met a women who I thought was 25, she turned out to be 40!!! As far as Americans being healthier than Europeans, please explain this: almost 35 million people in the States don't have access to healthcare!!! Also the HIV rate in the US is twice that of the European Union and four times that of Canada!!!Uh huh sure whatever. Oh yeah Lennox Lewis, he's European, and he kicked the crap out of Mike Tyson!!
Another thing to ponder, what about this discussion board? There is a whole topic dedicated to the subject of American women in the WSG, much of it seems to be complaints about them.
CBGBConnisur
06-30-02, 04:31
Oh another thing I think it might me more entertaining to have sex with vampire than with an *b*itch like you USBabe.
Sinanju Master
06-30-02, 08:03
USBabe, yer e-mail address please.....
CBGB... lighten up... your recent tirades make American Men look bad. I can see that vein in your forehead about to pop.
Sinan... are you serious??? After that last post we'll be lucky if she comes back at all.
Dickhead... Yes, I meant loser... without the second chance to change things in the new forum it's easier to make mistakes. No hard feelings on the shaved Rubber thing I hope... I thought it was kinda funny. On the small town girl issue: I would agree that they are more close minded and less venturesome than others in daily events, but the reverse is true when in bed.
USbabe... too bad about your friends. While it's true that most of the posters here have made up their minds about US women, I would have thought they'd want to know why. I find it likely that in a few years, once their good/youthful looks have failed, they will sit together at the coffee shop and wonder why men no longer want them. They will likely put men down as "assholes" when the real reason is that they no longer have good looks to counter their bad attitudes. I applaud you for sticking around and trying to find a few answers.
Joe said:
"I'd simply say that when one is kicked where it hurts repeatedly one tends to cover up so as not to take the full force of the next blow. It's a survival instinct."
Nicely said Joe. As a guy in his late 20's I'm tired of being constantly shot down. I'm clean cut, well dressed, articulate, and wasn't beat with the ugly bat; yet I'm constantly turned down by women. The most given reason? "Sorry, I'm seeing someone right now". Well I know that's bullshit, a recent survey done in the US states that 50% of people between 18 and 35 are single. The result of this constant failure is that I no longer bother to ask US girls out. The only reason I have a GF at present is because I moved to a new town and wanted to meet some people, so I took out an ad on a singles site (which is a fantastic way of crushing ones self esteem by the way). She has many of the qualities I look for in a mate but it's only been 3 months and as we all know it takes longer than that to get to know a person. She is my final attempt at an American Woman... if she turns out like the others then it's off to South America I go.
Sinanju Master
06-30-02, 19:23
FedUp, I think that USBabe has caught on that I'm no longer willing to blindly bash American women, so, I think that she's intelligent enough to read the cards on the table and engage me in intelligent conversation away from the board.
As for your post and the ones you pasted, they hit the nail on the head. MY frustratiuon is that the parental units taught me to respect women and in my approaches to them, I did JUST THAT. However, they seem NOT to respond to that and after so many times of being metaphorically kicked in the nuts without a cup, one rasies his shields (Yes, I like Star Trek! LOL) to fend off their daily rejections. The paradox amazes me: they (American women) crave the "exciting guy" (I'm by no means boring if you ask my friends, law enforcement, and my former commanders in the military but that's another story NEVER to be told) who will more often than NOT stomp on their hearts like a dried out eggshell and dump them like yesterday's stool sample, while the guy who considers their feelings and treats them as a human being (GASP! This is the beginning of the end for the well-mannered guy!) will be seen as last year's fashion; unexciting and unworthy of attention. These days, I merely say that American women are intelligent, BUT they must live with the choices they make. If they take a risk that they know deep in their will end up creating emotional havoc in their lives, SO BE IT. DO NOT come crying to ME and ask to use my shoulder and my ear simply becasue you were STUPID enough to do what you knew would cause you pain. I no longer care that they make such stupid decisions. THAT, in and of itself shows me that they are not capable of making wise decisions in the arena of dating, and I don't wanna be with a dumbbell. To go a bit further, Fed, your scenario of the future when these women sit around bitching about American men being assholes was one that I thought of for a long time, myself. What is it with this board?? Am I transmitting my thoughts as I sleep?? LOL Anyway, this scenario is the inevitable END to the unwise decisions American Women make. They end up at the cafe with their gf's blaming American MEN for their mistakes while not admitting that their attitudes and their current (and ever present loss of physical attractiveness) is the problem for their lack of a significant other. Like I said in a previous post (and even before this NEW forum came to fruition) I don't find it difficult at all to scare up female companionship (not necessarily sexual) whenever I've gone to Europe or the Republic of Panama. I know it wasn't financial, either, 'cos I NEVER had some visa ***** hanging on me. All my encounters were of GENUINE interest. An example was when I was at a New Year's Eve Party some years back. I was at a disco and (I was enjoying the body of a blonde barmaid who I was staying with for the week) a brunette walks up to me and starts to chat me up. I knew within a minute that she wanted to drain me of my bodily fluids and I started to walk out the disco to go home with her, but my fucking conscience got the better of me. GODDAMMIT!!! Anyway, my efforts will be focused on foreign women from now on, but I won't totally refuse American women. If they reform themselves in my eyes, I will be proven wrong (happily, but unlikely). If they DON'T reform themselves, I will be proven right and the focus of my efforts will not be mistaken.
I am posting this for some friends of mine, Dufus and Ed. It’s quite long. Hope it can illuminate – Angus.
[Dufus: Dufus speaking, been reading the forum for a while. Trying to bring some objectivity to your worthy discussion. It’s been interesting but a lot of personal anecdote. Like it’s been said, we need more Am. Women to voice their opinions – keeps us honest to a certain extent.
I think I can get around her reluctance to join in. I have a foolproof way to plumb the depths of the American woman’s soul and get her take on things, how she really views men, herself, love, sex. I’ll present 16 transcripts from the personals section of a local [San Francisco Bay Area] Bulletin Board, culled from hundreds of Am. Wom. presenting their best face to the world (they are trying to attract a mate?). A statistical random sample. Obviously the methodology biases giving the Am. Women the benefit of the doubt since she gets to describe herself in her own words. I’ll annotate them to elucidate their meaning.]
[ed: editors note: Dufus, this isn’t objective. You ignored hundreds of decent women and only picked out the one’s that got under your skin]
[dufus: are there just a lot of weird chicks in the Bay Area?]
[ed: it’s partly demographic. US Census reports that there are cartloads of excess males, in the horniest 20-40+ demographics, over available females. The women get to name their price. It’s high.]
[Dfs: apologies for the length. But this is objective and requires a large sample. This is science. Or is it sociology?]
[ed: you spend the whole Saturday Evening into the wee hours, writing this drivel. Dude, you need to get laid.]
transcript one:
----------------
What do you want in this world, Honesty?
[Dufus: honestly? I want sex]
If sex is what your looking for then don't respond either there is so much more to companionship then sex
[Dufus: it goes like this. A city in Brazil declares a holiday in celebration of orgasms – if you can combine urban planning and sex why not companionship and sex?]. Personally I find it real primitive if people base relationships on sex
[Dufus: OK, let it be built on mutual love and respect…40 foot pilings driven deep into the bedrock, the foundations are solid. You get them, the ground floor thru the 5th story… floors 6 thru 120 about sex. deal?].
It is like saying that it is okay to cheat cause that is human instinct or that men and women can't be friends cause they will want to sleep with each other
[Dufus: we can be friends and we can sleep with each other]. He slept with me so he must love me, is another example
[Dfs: look, you reap what you sow – you made prostitution illegal, right? To get sex I either become a criminal or make you believe I love you. It’s just the lesser of two evils]. No these are neither good nor healthy attitudes towards life or relationships. No this isn't a hang up this is just being real.
[clue me in , this a personal ad, right? aren’t you supposed to be making yourself attractive, like even 3% attractive]
BTW I am 27 so please I don't need my dad to reply. [Dufus: She ain’t a sand-dune she’s a whole f…ing BEEEAACCH!!!!!!] [ed: didn’t you steal that line?]
transcript 2:
In search of a sleeping/cuddle buddy...
I'm a 22-year old student here in Oakland until mid-August, when I go back to school….
I can't stand sleeping alone, and maybe some of you all know what that's like? ….
So I'm looking for someone who wants to get together and just sleep, as weird as that sounds. Cuddle to sleep, actually….No strings attached, and it wouldn't be every night...I do snore… I don't want to be doing this with anyone old enough to be my father….
Nothing else, though...just cuddling to sleep. No kissing, no sex of any kind. ….
I'm 5'6", 250 lbs, blond hair and blue eyes.
So email me if you're interested! =)
[ed: I mean, isn’t there DIAL-A-TEDDY-BEAR for perverts like you? What a dangerous, infantile fantasy] [Dufus: But even so, Guys are so hard-up for sex here that she’s sparked a mini-construction in the Bay Area of guys reinforcing the floors of their apartments so they can accommodate her][ed: I’m not hard up]
transcript 3:
I want a really smart boyfriend
[Dufus: I’ve got an IQ of 100. It’s 30 points higher than yours. Relatively speaking I’m Einstein]
I'm 24, single, and sick of boring yuppies with nothing to say!! I am attractive(I think), friendly, and very very very very very very very sick of meeting the wrong type of guy. I would love to meet someone who is really bright and well read [ed: she actually wrote that very,very…cr*p][D: I don’t make this up.]
[ed: Anyway, this one is progress. She doesn’t say she doesn’t like sex. No cheap shots at guys in their 30’s]
[Dufus: I’m really, really, really,really,really, really, really smart and I have many,many,many,many interesting things to say. We’ll have sex after I’ve explained you what’s in a rainbow.]
transcript 4:
...fun, excitment, new friends and maybe a new relationship. I am easy on the eyes, can hold up my end of the conversation and tend to have a sarcastic type of humor (just to warn you)! Oh, and I am 32 years old. If you are smart, funny, and tall (at least 5'11")
[Dufus: Darn! only 5’10” 15/16th’s],
I'd love to hear from you.
[Dufus: do I have to be a stand up comedian to get laid around here]
[ed: quit whining, she wants a tall, stand up comedian.][Dufus: what’s with the “sarcastic sense of humor” – isn’t sarcasm the lowest form of humor – how does she get away with it?][ed: She probably has large breasts…they make up for a multitude of sins. ][D: while they’re firm?]
[transcript 5:]
Any smart, handsome man free for a date?
Hi! Thanks for stopping by. I'm (unexpectatly) free tonight. Would be nice to be in the company of an interesting and attractive man in his 30s (at least to keep the wolfs away)[ed: that’s “wolves” – but I’m being a humorless pedant][Dufus: and humor’s big, see below]. Please be unattached, easygoing, and possess a sense of humor.[Dufus: How much do you charge when you’re not free?…hehe] If nothing else, maybe we'll both find a new friend... have some wine, interesting conversations... maybe check out some music.[Dufus: then again, maybe we’ll find we have only one thing in common: we hate each other’s guts]
No weirdos, cranky guys, complainers, or those who just like to hear themself's talk [ed: doesn’t describe anyone on this forum][Dufus: I agree], but have no interest in someone else's ideas.. [ed: I’m fedup complaining. I’m emigrating][D: right behind you bro’.]
transcript 6:
Can you help me remember what there is to like about men?
[Dufus: Sorry, as a general rule I don’t usually date men. Plus I wish all other men would shrivel up and die and leave all the world’s women to me][ed: to put a more pseudointellectual spin on your question – it’s a question of comparative advantage. I’m built for sex, you’re girlfriend’s shoulder is built to cry on. Use each in a manner befitting their abilities: cry on her shoulder, have sex with me.]
transcript 7:
Where are the nice, respectful men?
[Dufus: a lot of them are chasing tail in Thailand, Brazil, Argentina,DR,CR, Malaysia, …]
[ed: but doing it respectfully…out of respect to you they’ll pretend to have no interest in sex whatsoever.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
transcript 8:
Attractive 32 y.o. SF seeks Worthy Friend
Attractive & wicked intelligent SF, 32, 5'3", graduate degree, top school-educated, seeks tall (5'9"+), reasonably fit, well-educated, and masculine/handsome *single*, …man, 27-38... East Coast transplant who moved here a few years ago...
[Dufus: Woe is me! multi-degreed career woman. I am not worthy. Unless I can trade you very fit for only a bachelor’s degree? I’ll send you my transcripts. Come to think of it who wants to screw around with Sheepskin. Do I really need a Phd to get laid?]
[ed: It’s called assortative mating. For you, that means smart people have the hots for smart people. Since I know what assortative mating is I’m in already]
[Dufus: funny, I usually associate wicked intelligence with the likes of Hitler, Khengis Khan, Caligula, the Borgia’s. None of whom get my rocks rolling]
I have many diverse interests [Dufus: Lady, I’ve got one and only one hobby…] and am an inquisitive and adventurous soul with joie de vivre to spare [Dufus: Joe de what?] .
Let's enjoy each other's company for a little while, no pressure, no strings[Dufus: OK, no strings. How about handcuffs?]. And who knows... if it's "love at first sight," maybe you could even convince me to leave this superficial (albeit beautiful) place and move back to the East where we can enjoy the Seasons again together. [Dufus: aren’t 3 out of 4 seasons on the East Coast frigid?][ed: that’s Minnesota]
[Dufus: would that there were a pinata big enough to stuff you and your inflated ego in]
[editor: violence is reprehensible and will not be condoned. Oh look! there’s a giant pinata. How pretty! All I need is a big stick to whack it with]
transcript 9:
young SF wants generous SM.
[Dufus: generous, ma’m, in which department, precisely?][ed: Dufus, there, see that big bulge in your pants][D: yeah, but that’s only my wallet!][ed: Exactly, Dufus.]
transcript 10:
Sexy Female, bored at home tonight and looking to lick and be licked tonight....would prefer within the next 2 hours
[ed: mirabile dictu, she’s horny…][Dufus: Whoaaa!! maybe I’m in][ed: then again maybe you’re not … got this from the Dyke’s personals section, Sorry.]
transcript 11:
Looking for someone who is NOT perfect. Do you have 'issues'?
[Dufus: No Really I don’t. Honest. Back issues, sure: Playboy, Penthouse, Big Jugs…but, they don’t count right?]
Do you have "issues"? Low self-esteem, over-weight, whatever...perhaps longing for someone to fill the void in your life who may be able to help you get on the right track? If so, we should talk. Maybe we can help eachother out. :)
[editor: Ma’m, I do have one issue. I wasn’t breast-fed as a baby. When does therapy begin?]
If you aren't going to send a genuine response (ie: no "copy and paste" response), then please don't waste my inbox space. [editor: Yes, ma’am][Dufus: what’s this thing women have with keeping their inboxes clean?]
transcript 12:
if YOU are bored as well, and (hopefully stumbled
upon this because you were searching for a job as was i;
as opposed to checking this section relentlessly for new
additions to give your assortment of diseases to; and/or
collect pictures/jack off material--)
send me your picture and be under 26.
[editor: Hell hath no fury like a woman’s scorn]. [Dufus: Sung to the tune of: “American woman, get away from me…”][ed: Look, like USBabe says, you can’t tar everyone with the same brush. USBabe’s very nice][Dufus: I’m dreaming what she’s like in a gossamer negligee. HOT!][ed: I meant her character, Dufus, so in a pool of 150 million Am. Women there’s bound to be another nice one, there’s more than one in every bunch]
transcript 13:
Imagine the odds...
[Dufus: I did. About 1 in 150 million][Ed: Dufus, let her finish] that someone I could want to get to know and vice-versa was actually reading this right now [Ed: let me see, picky self absorbed, and pigs might fly][Dufus: Or prostitution is legalized in the States]
transcript 14:
I shop at Lane Bryant, The Avenue, and the Plus-sized section at Ross
[ed: Check her out, she’s good-looking from a distance][D: like, how far?][ed: like 10,000 miles, below the horizon, dark-side of the moon, namely a safe distance]
transcript 15:
bored! help me :)
Where is everyone?? I'm so bored hehe.
23 yr old girl, bored out of her mind. Live in downtown SJ. Someone entertain me! And I don't mean sex!
[Ed: Kids, todays word is: quid pro quo][Dufus: yeah., pro’s!!!!; back on topic!]
transcript 16:
Very specific man... You out there somewhere???
I am pretty specific as to what exactly I am looking for
The worst thing that can happen is I won’t find it [Dufus: then what? back to your cats and vibrators]…
Must have a good job….I only like tall men with wide shoulders…
funny but not cynical.[D: Oh! the shame of it, I disqualified myself already]……
I am looking specifically for a man with little to no baggage [D: bags are packed] …. I am looking for a permanent addition to my life [D: have you considered getting a St. Bernard?]………..
I am in my early 30’s and my life is good. Must be a good listener and enjoy and respect women’s conversation[D: (example conversation) her: yack, yack, yack, yabba, yabba, yabba. Don’t you agree, Fido? (fido) Yes, honey.(her) yack, yack, yack, yaba,yabba,yabba]. So being self centered or an ego monster won’t work either.[D: Lady, tell me about it]……
Well, if you made it this far I hope to hear from you… Oh ya I don’t like beards, they’re scratchy…
[editor: Dufus, I am at a complete and utter f…ing loss. Where did all the charm go? This is supposed to be the personals. There’s more romance in the obituaries section of the newspaper. Did it evaporate. Really, I think it all wound up in Latin America. Check out those Colombiana personals. “creo en el amor por que lo he sentido”]
[D: What does that mean?]
[Ed: Who knows! We are talking hot. She could pop the fig leaf of a Greek statue just reading her shopping list]
[D: which supermarket? Safeway’s or Albertson’s?]
[Ed: Not the list, Dufus, the language, Spanish! – el idioma del amor]
.
.
THIS IS WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND .......
WHY ARE ..... SO MANY MEN .... willing to PAY $200 / $300 / $500 AND EVEN more UP TP $1000 / $2000. IT is just NO WAY any SEX is worth that price, and worst of all you are only getting a few hours of sex at BEST. As BEAUTIFUL as some of these women are .... it is still just SEX .... AS GOOD AS IT "FEELS" it is still just SEX.
....... SOME of the men who pay this price are BIG BALLER & SHOT CALLER .... but even they should know better. The some man who will NOT pay his employees a cent more, and would rather close his business than pay his employees .... will pay a HOOKER $500-$2000 per/ NIGHT. He will even short cut a project to save money .... WILL BIG SPEND ON A HOOKER.
....... LOOK at the Bunny Ranches in Nevada .... the two times I was there going to a Bunny Ranch was out of the question. I have a very good job, but I refuse to PAY ... those kind of prices for SEX.
....... HELL ..... Most men would DIVORCE their wives, if they had to pay them those kind of prices for SEX.
....... I DO THINK ANYONE SHOULD PAY MORE THAN $100 FOR "SEX" FROM ANY WOMAN HERE IN AMERICA, AND WORLDWIDE.
.... IF you are paying more they should be staying for hourS (that is more than just 1-2 hours). Top pay should be $50-75 for an hour, and you should be paying for the time, NOT per NUT.
....... I have turned down some REAL FOXES because they wanted TOO much. As I saw them on a slow night, they gave in and I got all I wanted far less.
.... FAR TOO MANY MEN especially Foreigners gave in and pay CRAZY prices for SEX ... whether good or bad.
.......CUT THIS PRACTICE SHORT .... REMEMBER YOU ARE THE ONE PAYING ... they are NOT paying you. Good service is rewarded with a TIP, NOT BAD.
>>>>> and STOP gaving up the money first .... IF YOU MUST GAVE ANY MONEY GAVE A 1/4-1/3 not HALF or FULL .... EVEN IF YOU KNOW THE WOMAN.
>>>> LASTLY ..... DON'T take your SW into nice neighborhoods. you are making the neighbors MAD and they are calling the cops. Keep your business in the business area of the SW.
Doing this will stop these sudden untimely crack down's.
.... YOU GET MY DRIFT ???????
>>>> PAYLESS ... GET MORE .... IT IS "YOUR MONEY."
....... ((((((( WORD ))))))) .......
CBGBConnisur
07-01-02, 00:39
The vein in my forehead is about to pop because I am plain frustrated. I find that here in America, my romantic life is the pits. Maybe its the city I live in thats too impersonal. I find dating is too slam bam thank you maam where I am. I met a woman in Europe who just showed me another world, the sweetness and kindness she showed to me a stanger was unbelievable, her inner beauty had highlighted her outer beauty, I would never find a lady like that where I live, NEVER! The thing is, she wants to remain in Europe. I am really willing to sacrifice what I have to be with her. After years of heartbreak I found someone. So I am in total agony now that I know this women is an ocean away and I just have to be with her, but I get pressure from friends and family to stay here in the states.
CBGB -- New York is another world for dating, that's true. But sounds like you should stop thinking and just go, especially if your posts here are any indication of how your frustration is affecting the rest of your life. You'll make new friends and family will always be family, no matter where you are. Grab being happy wherever and whenever you can -- nobody gets enough chances.
Yo fatass, they just arrested a person ALLEGEDLY (innocent until proven guilty in the US; no Napoleonic code here in at least 49 of the 50 states) responsible for one of the Arizona fires and the suspect is male. Hope that doesn't rock your world too bad.
The vast majority of arsonists are male. Arsonists are frequently bedwetters, although that does not imply the converse. Deal with it.
Wow...I leave town for a couple of days and look at how this discussion has grown. It's almost as if everybody was waiting for me to leave...
Well, there are many new posts, but all have the same message: "Boo Hoo, nobody loves me and it's all THEIR fault!!!" We all need to grow up a bit and realize that WE are ultimately responsible for the way people perceive and/or treat us. If every morning, a different person kicks you in the crotch on your way to work, then it must be something that YOU are doing that brings about such a response. The whole "I am the center of the universe" thought process leads to a pathetic, sad life.
As men, would you want a woman who has let every little negative experience in her life cloud her way of thinking? Would you want a woman who always finds that cloud in the silver lining? Would you want a woman who has a one track mind and refuses to be budged from her self-centeredness? Would you want a woman who carries grudges to the extreme? NO? Well, if you don't want a woman like that, why would a woman want a man like that?
US Babe touched on this in an earlier post (and I did as well). The glory of being in a new place clouds your perceptions. Most Americans, when on vacation, visit the more touristy, up-scale areas and these places are generally filled with the "beautiful people". I am an ex-patriate myself. When I first came to live in Mexico, I was in paradise. I felt like Hugh Hefner. But soon reality sinks into your day to day life and whatever good or bad habits you have eventually return, just in a new setting. There is no plane trip long enough to get away from yourself.
Like I said earlier, I've never had problems with American women. I'm neither wealthy nor handsome . I've been without a car for most of my life and I live a very simple existence despite a fair share of up-scale jobs. Yet I've always found good women. How can this be? Am I the only one here who is lucky enough to find the "good ones?" There is nothing spectacular about me. Can it be that maybe women aren't generally as evil as you all say? Maybe American women are more difficult to deal with for some men because American women, unlike many foreign women, aren't ashamed to ask for what they want. Sure, many women's expectations aren't realistic, but are ours? Personally, I like a woman who is my equal and acts accordingly.
CBGB...man, you crossed the line between debate and just plain insanity. I believe the story about your "lady" in Europe, but I also believe in the Loch Ness Monster. Then again, most women ARE attracted to really inappropriate bursts of rage.
Sin...most women don't keep posting on boards like this because sooner or later they will get hit on by a desperate male who confuses common courtesy with flirtation.
FedUp...Glad that you don't still thiink that I'm an ass. Although, that may change pretty soon. The last time you were posting, you were sounding as self-pitying as most of these guys. Of course, YOU snapped out of it.
Nofatso...If you could only be as polite here as you are in e-mail. But we love you anyway, much like we all loved Archie Bunker despite his being wrong all of the time. By the way, did you tell your friend about what I said?
US Babe...Don't go away. We need a voice of reason to break up this pity party now and again.
Well, gotta run...
From: THE HAPPIEST MAN ALIVE
Sinanju Master
07-02-02, 12:22
miller2k, I WAS gonna believe that you WERE truly the happiest man alive, but as I suspected from a long while back, you seem just Pollyanna to me. Your constant label as such after your posts made me suspect. You remind me of an ostrich. Each of us IS the center of our own universe and we need to look after ourselves and needs to a point, but not so much that we totally disregard those of others. Did I let negative experiences cloud my perceptions? Sure. Am I gonna ignore them and act like they don't exist, like you seem to do? No. My negative experiences (and recent acceptance of USBabe's logic) are a learning experience that act as a rudder. My behavior in the past may have seemed desperate, but from things I've learned recently BEFORE I began posting to this board, THAT will never happen again. Lay off the Millers...
Sinanju Master
07-02-02, 13:09
I',m the HAP-PI-EST MAN ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE.... yeah, the check's in the mail, I love you, and I won't cum in yer mouth. Get real you bonehead. Is there a REASON you live in a country where there are not as many American women as there would be North of the border? [awaits the vilification from the HAP-PI-EST MAN ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE, since I've kicked him in the balls!]
CBGBConnisur
07-02-02, 13:39
miller2k, i wasn't a tourist while in Europe, I was living and working there, and I found a substantial difference in the attitude in people while working there, people tend to think in terms of the group, not thinking in terms of the individual, thats why socialism is so strong over there. You sound like a guy from a small town so you probably wouldn't know any better. Dating in a big jungle like the city, is not easy. The dating scene where I live is very superficial at best. From what I experience in Europe, women often approach me without any reservation, they tend to like softness in a guy, which I am a soft guy. And another thing, the attitude towards people of the other races is in general terms more tolerant. You see more interracial dating, and it isn't frowned at the way it is in America. I have been in quite a few relationships and they have simply broken because we were of two different ethnic backgrounds. If you deny this, I'm sorry you must be living on Mars or something, but attitudes towards interracial romance in America are much more restrained than they are in Europe.
Oh yeah, you say most tourists stay in the areas with the 'beautiful people', I happened to stay in more or less normal areas of the cities I visited. When in Paris I stayed in an area to the North of the city. Guess what?? There were plenty of hot women in this working class section of Paris. In Amsterdam, I was on the south side of town, guess what?? There were many beautiful women there, most of them locals. In Germany I stayed in suburbs of Frankfurt and Cologne, and I saw many beautiful women in normal mundane locations, not just bars and nightclubs with 50 dollar cover charges like in the States. And another thing if I would compare the looks of the people in the "beautiful people" locales in the USA such as NYC, LA, Miami, and so forth to those in Europe, such as Paris, Amsterdam, Cannes, and so forth, Europe's locales win over their glam counterparts in the States.
Miller2K, you mentioned also that you lived in Mexico and felt like Hugh Hefner over there, so obviously you went there to find women. And to feel like Hugh, meant that you felt succesful with women over there. Also reading between the lines by that statement you had more luck in Mexico than in the States and that the women there made you feel good. So by you criticizing me for preferring and rating European women as better and myself having better experiences over there, you're just a hypocrite.
Sinanju Master
07-02-02, 14:10
CBGB, yer message is one I already knew, but it was refreshing to hear confirmation of what I already knew for ages. Your breath is wasted on that Pabst Blue Ribbon-drinking, pork rind-eating miller2k. He thinks that if there are LEGIONS of many like minded individuals who make basically the same statement, then THEY must all be wrong. I'd give him a dollar to buy a clue, but he'd think it was a pouch of magic beans. Oh yeah, miller2k. If you had ANY awareness about you whatsoever (I'm already disappointed, because there IS none) you'd have noticed how USBabe stealthily came around the back door into my now extinct metaphorical fortress, and calmly took it apart brick by brick until I was admittedly standing amongst a pile of rubble in my skivvies. I gotta hand it to her for her logic. You, however, play the brickheaded moron and continue to attempt to scale the castle walls with a frontal assault. Too bad there aren't more like USBabe out there.
I'm curious what bars you guys are going to and not finding hot women. Drop by any niteclub in Toronto, New York or Tampa and there are young, sexy, sweaty girls everywhere (with a few hounds thrown in of course). Just realise that they aren't going to talk to anyone more than 3 years older than themselves... unlike other countries where older men are seen as desirable. What I have noticed is a major lack of hot ladies over the age of 30 in clubs. Where do they all go?... or are there none left?
CBGB... Get out of New York. I thought Toronto was a hard city to find a date in... until I visited New York a few times. Everybody there thinks they're hot shit... even the losers. I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy done than live in New York. If you like this gal in Europe so much then go live with her for a while... fuck what family says. Are you expecting to hook up with her again in your second life? You're obviously miserable... go do something about it.
Miller said...
"As men, would you want a woman who has let every little negative experience in her life cloud her way of thinking? Would you want a woman who always finds that cloud in the silver lining? Would you want a woman who has a one track mind and refuses to be budged from her self-centeredness? Would you want a woman who carries grudges to the extreme? NO? Well, if you don't want a woman like that, why would a woman want a man like that?"
... Nope, the problem is that just as many american women act this way too, not just the guys. I'm reminded of a song by Pam Tillis called "All the Good Ones are Gone".
The more I think/debate about this, the more I discover that it's not american women I have a problem with. I will always have to sift through lumps of coal to find the diamond. It's the excessive bullshit involved in revealing the diamond that turns me off.
Originally posted by Fedup
. I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy done than live in New York.
I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a pre-frontal lobotomy :)
sinanjumaster, i don't question your motives for asking for my e-mail address, but kindly remember that you are asking for something which you aren't willing to give publicly yourself, either. with an abusive and hate-filled person like cgbg here, i would be a fool to give him any more information about myself. i understand that we all get angry, but when someone uses vitriolic language and behavior towards a person for absolutely no reason, he clearly has internal problems and needs to learn to control and manage his anger. none of my friends would put up with that garbage. it's amazing that a man would treat a woman like that and then wonder "why" women aren't attracted to him. we reap what we sow.
miller, i don't doubt your words a bit. the person who is able to look beyond himself is a happy, successful person. we're all self-centered to a certain degree, and of course it's good to want to protect ourselves, but completely self-centered persons rob themselves of the joy and true inner satisfaction that comes from true selflessness. personally, i am attracted to people who don't blame all their problems on others and who have enough self-respect to not accept bad behavior from others, either in personal or professional relationships. the men i know who have more women than they know what to do with are the ones who know how to treat a woman with respect while not allowing her to step all over them, either. it's very easy to wallow in self-pity. i've certainly done it, and it has gotten me nowhere. there are many, many american men who are [CodeWord127] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127), murderers, abusers (the vast majority of people on death row are men), and total sobs. but i can never fathom blaming an entire nation on the crimes and boorish behavior of a few! it's oh-so-easy to blame everything on the other person but much, much harder to look within ourselves to find out why we're being treated a certain way or why something isn't working.
it's also true that we see what we want to see. militant feminists blame men on everything and are essentially just waiting for a man to make a mistake so they can blame him and say, "see, men are all evil." quite frankly, i see an amazing number of similarities between militant feminists and many of the views here. i see the blame completely on women with men just being victims. there are many ways to protect ourselves without being completely vulnerable, and those who can do it well usually have very few complaints.
someone once described insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. if one approach is not working in life, i usually try another until i find what works. there are the doers in life, and there are the whiners. personally, i choose to spend my time with the doers. the good news is that anyone can be a doer! the optimistic viewpoint can be adopted by anyone of any sex, race, religion, and all that.
think about men you know who seem to have no problems with women at all. what do they do differently or how do they act differently than you do? i am very blessed to know some exceptional people in my life, and when i have problem with something, i wonder how they would handle the situation.
here's a secret. want to be known as an extremely interesting person? listen to other people and ask questions about what they've said to show them you have an interest in them or their activities. even though you've given almost no information about yourself, you'll be a person that others will go out of their way to want to know.
CBGBConnisur
07-02-02, 19:13
FedUp as soon as I get my Work Visa for Europe, I will finally leave the Rotten Apple. By the way, you mentioned there being a lot of hot women at nightclubs in NY. I hang out in Soho and Greenwich Village(in fact I was there last night) which is about as trendy and glamorous as you can get, I would rank no more than one in ten women a 7 or better. If you go clubbing in France or in Spain, especially around the Riviera, the percentage of hot women is more like 75 percent, enough so you have a chance of meeting someone. USBabe to each his own, I couldn't care to know more about you nor will I ever want to. But I will keep saying that a European woman will always top her American counterpart in every situation until I am blue in the face because it is true, contrary to the gross exaggerations of the media and Hollywood. I spent an extended amount of time over there to get a feel of what the place was like and it is a whole different world. A better world in fact. There's a saying that the truth shall set you free. And the truth that I discovered has set me free. You said I am an abusive and hate filled person, you don't know one goddam thing about me. Everyone has a good and bad side to them.
There is a big difference between truth and opinion, and unfortunately many seem to think that their own opinions are truth. I'd like to be self-centered enough to think that all my opinions are truth! But I know that it isn't so.
It is my opinion (and not truth) that your failure with women has to do far more with a closed mind than anything. You are judging millions and millions of American women by the actions of a few. You could be a victim of your own circumstance. I don't know many intelligent, educated women who prefer the company of a man who is not open-minded. Unfortunately, if your opinions here are indicative of what you truly believe, then you are sincerely prejudiced and close-minded. That, more than anything else, is a turn-off to any woman who is worth knowing.
Quite frankly, if you insist on making pre-judgements on any woman because she's American, then you can't complain about women who rally against all American men because of the actions of a few. Do you want to prove all the man-haters in the world right?! Unfortunately, you're playing right into their hands, whether or not you realize it.
I'm sincerely sorry about the rotten things that have happened in your life, but you seem to be creating your own circumstance by victimizing yourself. How about taking a fresh approach and rising to the occasion?! It can be done. But ONLY if you want it.
Negative thinking will almost always bring negative results.
Stranger99
07-02-02, 20:04
As an European leaving in the US I would like to give my contribution to this discussion.
I have a "Love & Hate" relationship with this country.
Love si the fantastic opportunities you get, the true recognition of your achievements, the feeling you can really climb up in the social ladder.
Hate is the boring uniformity, the false cordiality, the shallow relationships, the conservative image.
In a few words I reckon there are many advantages living in the US for what relates to your professional life, many disadvantages, I guess, for what relates to your personal life.
So talking about American women I rarely found persons interested in really knowing the "other". Where other is somebody with different background, different culture and interests. Of course there are exceptions to this but in general terms I always perceive an initial interest (due probably to the exotic factor of knowing a foreigner) followed by a progressive "who-could care-less" attitude.
In this respect I think women just reflect the attitude of the American people. There is a generalized fear for whatever doesn't conform to familiar standards.
Do you guys notice that all cities here look the same? Same restaurants, same hotels, same shops all over the country. Isn't this boring? Isn't this the ultimate expression of a flattened culture?
You can call American women liberal if they are gonna give it you the first night out (and much more if they'll refuse it to you on the second) but isn't it by far more conservative that sense of superiority given by the ignorance of what exists outside of them?
Originally posted by CBGBConnisur
You said I am an abusive and hate filled person, you don't know one goddam thing about me. Everyone has a good and bad side to them.
That may be so, but calling a total stranger a b*itch, telling her fuck you, enjoy your vibrator, and that it would be more entertaining to have sex with a vampire, isn't exactly presenting the good side.
It's a two way street -- you've certainly been quick enough to make a judgement based, frankly, on far more reasonably-toned posts than yours. I understand frustration, but a straight-forward personal attack coming from, as far as I've been able to figure out, a casual, "Oh, you might have seen me in Paris" is, at best, pretty poor discussion protocol.
Stranger99 -- I think you're dead on. Most Americans are essentially xenophobic. They're not particularly hostile to other people and cultures, just uninterested beyond the degree where it directly affects them personally. Not all -- I know plenty of folks who don't fit in that box -- but the majority basically treats the rest of the world as a show on television.
CBGBConnisur
07-02-02, 20:53
Stranger99:
"In a few words I reckon there are many advantages living in the US for what relates to your professional life, many disadvantages, I guess, for what relates to your personal life. "
You are so correct on this issue Stranger99, I have friends from Europe who say the same thing, as far as professional and economic opportunities go, America is great but insofar as personal relations such as love and romance, America is not so good. I have a friend from France who sums it this way he says
"America is a good place to work but France is a good place to live."
Sin...did I touch a nerve? Sorry. I'm not like an ostrich. It's just that I don't let my negative experiences control me. There are many assholes in the world (male and female), but I refuse to let them affect me. Why would you give someone so much control over you? If someone screws me over, I just let it go...I learn from my mistakes and chalk up the bad experience to the lack of character of the other person. What you do is symptomatic of someone with low self-esteem. You let negative experiences re-enforce your own negative feelings about yourself. By all means, continue...I am happy because I choose to be happy, you are a twisted, negative, lonely twerp because you choose to be that way. You are what you think.
CBGB...Is Chicago a small town? How about San Francisco? I was in the big city dating jungle just like you. And I went to Mexico to live a simple, non-materialistic life, not for the women. Of course, I love women of all races and nationalities so I'm having fun. Keep up this erratic behavior and travelling to Europe won't be sufficient anymore, you'll need to hop on the Space Shuttle and head out to the Moon.
Fedup...This is all definitely a two way street. There are just as many bad women as bad men and both sexes are equally responsible. But I basically write here to contradict the people who want to cry and moan about how ALL American women are like this, etc.
and assuming that you're all right and American women are indeed more selfish than other women...could this be because the USA has so many men who refuse to look past themselves and aknowledge that anybody else has desires. Could this selfishness among American men be the cause of any perceived selfishness in women? If men can't/won't satisfy their women then is it wrong for them to look after themselves?
Well, out of respect for Sin's little problems, I won't close by saying that I'm the HAPPIEST MAN ALIVE...I'll just say good bye as I sit here on my balcony, over-looking the mountains with sunshine everywhere and a gentle breeze on my forehead. It's about 80 degrees now and in a bit I'll be working and then I'll go for a moon-lit stroll with a song in my heart and a bounce in my step. Life is wonderful, you should try it sometime...
Perhaps this topic should be entitled "American Sexuality", or even "The Dating/Screwing Scene in the USA", just to make the distinction that the prevelant complaint is about how hard it is to find someone to be with, sexually and otherwise, in our present culture. I believe this is a complaint that US men and women share. It just so happens that all the complainers in here are men (well, it is a website about how to find prostitutes, so I guess that figures...US Babe, how the hell did you find us? ;-)
Sinanju Master
07-03-02, 00:48
miller2k, don't flatter yourself. You didn't touch a nerve, you merely exasparate me. JUST when I thought that you had an understanding you go and fuck it up. You don't surprise me though. I DID allow past experiences (and the people involved) to "control" me, but the ongoing self-reflection I've been doing changed that. I'll STILL keep on my toes and weed out the lumps of coal, which are many, but on the other side of the coin, I'll lighten up and not keep up my shields 24/7. Low self-esteem? Nope. I KNOW what the hell I have to offer and you can bet yer ass it's worth its weight in Platinum.
USBabe, I can understand your reluctance to provide yer e-mail address, so, I'll do the honors from my end FIRST. Starlit1003sky@yahoo.com. Should you choose to send a response, a recap of the postings (yours and mine) will be forthcoming and an explanation of current things will be provided. Perhaps, you may be a bit surprised, maybe not.
CBGB, toss caution to the wind and GO FOR IT! When you look back on your life, if you have any regrets, regret the things you DID, instead of the things you never had the courage to do.
nofatso, I like your postings and I don't care WHAT the others say. If a man has an opinion, he shouldn't waffle on it unless he is proven utterly wrong.
I've tarried on this board for too long now. My purpose has been served and I actually got my point across to a lot of intelligent people (well save for one) who saw my point although they may not have wholeheartedly agreed 100% with my assessment.
So, USBabe, nofatso, Dickhead and CBGB, take care all, and I hope to bring to fruition my travel plans so I can share some stories.
PS
miller2k, you may even get YOUR wishes granted.... after all, Dorothy, the Tin Man, and the Cowardly Lion got THEIRS!
Hi Guys,
Could we keep the content of this area to "American Women" per se??? Some of you beyond macho characters are getting carried away and are way off the intended topic.
It's time to stop "banging" your dicks on your laptops everytime someone says something which offends your beyond macho male egos.
Rubber Nursey
07-03-02, 08:05
USBabe,
I was the only woman posting in this section for a long time on the old forum, (and I'm not even an American woman! LOL), and found after a while that being the only female voice in a topic like this can leave you open to some guys dumping ALL of their frustrations and anger towards women directly at YOUR doorstep. I wanted to say that I think you are doing a fantastic job holding your own in this debate. I was hoping for a long time that an American woman would actually join this thread, mainly because whenever I said something, people tended to think "Well yes, but you are Australian...women are different here". I don't think they are. You can ask any Australian male what he thinks of Australian women, and you will get the exact same responses as are given in this forum.
Men and women simply don't understand each other, and in many cases I think they don't even want to! I think often the differences between the sexes...which I don't personally believe amounts to much at all mind you...are blamed, rather than accepting that relationships fail because of our own mistakes and flaws. Finding that I was not compatible with one man, or even a succession of different men, does not mean that "all men are bastards". It means that I have yet to find the man that has all the qualities that I am looking for. Does that make me fussy? Probably. But does that mean I automatically despise every man out there who doesn't conform to my "standards"? Of course not.
I have mentioned many times (mainly in the Morality section), that my time as a sex worker gave me insights into the male psyche that changed my perceptions of men forever. The indepth conversations and the raw "expressions of self" that come from men in a commercial sex setting...aided by the anonymity...showed me that men suffer from the same insecurities, fears and desires as women do. They asked me questions about my feelings and insecurities as a woman, and showed genuine interest in the responses. Why can't that happen in the "real world". Why is it that when strangers handed me money, they were more open and honest than any prospective boyfriends were? We are all (both men and women) playing too many mind games in relationships...both trying to remain in control and both guarding against getting hurt. I think we would all benefit greatly from open conversations with each other about who we are and what we want from a relationship. Sounds corny I know...but how are we supposed to measure up to each others standards, when we have no idea what those standards are?
For example, the woman who won't "put out" on the first date. You may be thinking that she is a frigid cow or that she isn't attracted to you...but she may actually be very interested in a relationship with you, and trying not to give the impression that she is a sl*t! If you want sex with no commitment, tell her. She may be perfectly happy to do it on the first date if she knows that's what you want. If you want a relationship...tell her what that means to you. She can't read your mind.
USBabe...welcome to the WSG. I have agreed with everything you have said so far, in fact you seem to be a very similar woman to myself (and don't take that as an insult, seeing as I said I used to be a sex worker! LOL). Keep up the good work honey...the American woman needs you! :)
Rubber Nursey
07-03-02, 08:12
PS..Miller2k,
As always, everything you have said so far has brought a smile to my face. You have always been one of the most intelligent, compassionate and understanding men who post in this forum, and from your attitude it is easy to see why you are THE HAPPIEST MAN ALIVE. More power to you honey...the world (or should I say, the female population) needs more men like you.
Ok, you can all flame me and call me a rabid feminazi now... lol
Stranger99
07-03-02, 17:18
I believe that all the women (and all the men) around the world have a common pattern.
American women for the majority of their qualities (and defects) are no different than any other woman in the rest of the western-culture globe.
Having said this, I think the purpose of this entire forum is the discussion on what makes them different (better or worse).
I am not trying to make an easy point saying that girls in the US as an average weigh 40 lb more than their European counterparts.
I am talking about class. This is what a man really likes in a woman. More than beauty. And this is what, I feel, women here lack. I am not talking about Armani clothing. I am talking about a natural self-consciousness that makes a woman leader, and not a follower in a relationship.
RN: We all tend to idealize "the perfect counterpart" that is going to live the rest of our life happily with us. Eventually life and love are a compromise between the idea of what is perfect and what is available out there. A relationship is a mutual acceptance of the way we are.
M2K: I admire you (as I had opportunities to read some of your other posts in the WSG) for the choices you made in your life. Of course it is also easier to live a non-materialistic life in Mexico than it would be to do the same in the US. Bottom line is that it's easier to live like a Mexican in Mexico than like a Mexican in the US. That would be an accomplishment.
Dear RN, what a very sweet welcome you gave me! Thank you! I haven't read any other forums here, so I hope you'll forgive me when I did a double-take upon reading that you're a sex worker. This is a very personal question, and if you feel comfortable answering, I'd really appreciate it (and if you don't, I understand and hope that you aren't offended). How did you become a sex worker? I mean, was it a conscious choice or the best of your options at that time? In no way am I trying to insult you, but the concept is completely foreign to me.
You said, "Why can't that happen in the "real world". Why is it that when strangers handed me money, they were more open and honest than any prospective boyfriends were?"
Here's just a guess. In a romantic relationship, feelings are vulnerable. In a "business" sexual relationship, it is different. What did they have to lose by opening up to you? Things are much more cut and dry. You may or may not see the person again. He knows that you are with other people, so the idea of "cheating" really doesn't apply. That type of situation is just very clear, whereas in love, usually nothing is clear!
I wanted to share an article that I think is absolutely brilliant. It's entitled "How to Argue," by Michael Crichton and first appeared in "Playboy magazine" in 1991. Too often when you argue (especially with a woman), a guy can come off as either wimpy or a complete jerk. This tells you how to WIN and keep your dignity and self-respect unharmed. It's a little bit long, but I think every word is worth reading.
http://www.crichton.org/howtoargue2.shtml
CBGBConnisur
07-05-02, 17:30
USBabe, you mention the term sex worker as if its a horrible connotation, or a low class person's occupation. In Europe, its a natural thing, by the way, there are just as many male prostitutes in Europe as there are female. Its just only in the United States where prostitution, in the view of the Christian right is considered morally repugnant, and on the other hand, the feminist left in the US feels thats its an exploitation of women. One of the things I noticed about prostitution in Europe is that more affluent and educated women take part in it. Why is this so? Because for one thing, sex is not evil, watch a television program or look at an advertisement, the European mass media is more sexually provacative than its American counterpart. American advertising and media focuses on being "warm and fuzzy" or humorous whereas European advertising is more sexual.
I found this to be true in South America as well. The second thing is legality, its perfectly legal to engage in this activity and there is no real legal stigma attached to it. Third is the issue of money, part time jobs are more rare in Europe than they are in the US, and therefore prostitution is a source of part time income. Most women in Europe work in this profession as a part time occupation. In fact a woman I met while in Paris, was a medical student, who happened to moonlight as an escort.
Originally posted by CBGBConnisur
USBabe, you mention the term sex worker as if its a horrible connotation, or a low class person's occupation.
What words did I use to give you that impression? I used the word "sex worker" because that's what RN used.
I don't recall making any judgmental statements about RN at all. I'm completely unfamiliar with the subject, hence my questions.
"The indepth conversations and the raw "expressions of self"that come from men in a commercial sex setting...aided by the anonymity...Why is it that when strangers handed me money, they were more open and honest than any prospective boyfriends were? We are all (both men and women) playing too many mind games in relationships..."
AMEN, RN!!!! Men often feel more comfortable with "professional" women because there is a very simple, money for affection, exchange. Many men, even in this day and age, still have a problem with the complexities of a relationship.Many men want what they want and often have little regard as to how they get it
or who they have to hurt to get what they want. Blame part of this on culture and how we were raised. Men are taught to be goal oriented and we perceive everything as a win/lose situation. We want to get laid, so we engage in a head game to get what we want. Of course, many women play the same game, but with
a different objective. Some men (well-represented by many who post in this section) are emotional cripples, borderline socio-paths. They are buried in negativity and long ago lost the spark of life that seperates men from cavemen. These men would be paralyzed by the prospect of opening up their hearts and
letting the world see what they are made of (and, in many cases, they would be well within reason to be afraid). So they go through life pissing and moaning about how the world has let them down. Meanwhile, they grow darker and darker
inside. So dark that they lose any semblance of normal emotional stability. But if they go to a sex-worker, the deal is simple: Money for physical affection. They are so relieved at the simplicity of the transaction that they let their guard down and open up. Why? This is all based on the fact that this type of man has low self-esteem and would feel less humiliated by looking foolish in front of a stranger than a person they know. If they only realized that this intimacy is the secret to being succesful in relationships... Men that can master the skill of being honest have the most success...If you're an emotional cripple, admit it and you
soon won't be...
by the way, thanks for the kind words RN...I've secretly enjoyed your posts for along time as a lurker in other sections...
Bye Bye, Sin...
"I've tarried on this board for too long now. My purpose has been served"
Sin...if that purpose was to come off as a complete *******...BRAVO, Well Done...I can appreciate a man who sets realistic goals for himself and meets them....
So long, US Babe...good to see that the whackos in here didn't scare you off.
Now, now, Miller2k, that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with! While I agree with a lot of what you've said both here and elsewhere, portraying large portions of guys who use and open up to sex workers as emotional cripples is a bit much. Let's face it -- it's easier to open up to strangers in general, because there's a basic level of safe anonymity there. That's true whether it happens in this scenario, or whether it's my mother telling her emotional life story to a stranger on a bus or plane, or a customer pouring out their heart to a shoe salesperson. It's the very distance that adds a degree of safety.
I agree with you that honest expression of emotion is the key to a successful relationship, but I don't agree that emotive confessions to strangers, whether it be after the throes of business-based sexual activity or not, is in any way an indication of emotional capability or stability. (And in real life, it takes two to make that honesty process work well, also.)
Here's two other theories in response to RN's query that can be tried on for size:
1. After and around the process of sexual activity, which is an expression of physical intimacy, extending the equation to emotional intimacy isn't a large stretch, especially since at that point we've all got lots of endorphines running though our systems and are thereby literally often feeling no pain. Combine that with the safety of the stranger, as mentioned above, and plenty of people will be willing to open up, if only as a way of extending the moment as the physical afterglow fades...
2. The sex worker, regardless of all the other potentially negative perceptions that might float around, is definitely viewed as a professional in the field of intimate relations, and thereby given credence as one who might provide insight. When I go to a physician, I can only get the best treatment if I reveal everything of relevance. The same equation may well also be at work here.
Again, I don't necessarily disagree with your take on things; it just seems to me to be a rather universally negative rendering. Admittedly, some threads of conversation here can make one think that lots of those involved are mysoginistic rage-a-holics, but I think that's as big a mistake as the one-size-fits-all surface that often comes through about women in these posts. The truth is almost invariably more complex.
Stranger99
07-05-02, 23:43
CBGB...It is not 100% accurate to say that in Europe prostitutes do not live at the margin of the society. They are, especially the ones on the street. The medicine student you are mentioning might exist but it is not representative of the large majority of prostitutes.
I agree with you on the sex-reference used in the media here vs. Europe. I believe both situations are, in reality, 2 extremes. Here there is a false puritanism, in Europe sex is used to the excess where a naked woman is put in a commercial advertising cheese.
In real life, here you risk a law suit if you make a compliment to a co-worker, in Europe (or South America) you can easily find situations where the boss asks his secretary to wear a mini-skirt at work.
Probably the right balance is represented by a few countries. The Scandinavian countries or Holland are the ones that come to my mind.
Answering to the previous posts: are you sure you can easily categorize people visiting prostitutes? I think that behind the same actions there are many different reasons and backgrounds. Not sure that they are all looking for the same thing. Actually maybe sex is not the prime reason for a vast majority.
Maybe an interesting discussion could be generated by an honest admission by us. I think most of has have or had been with prostitutes. What led or is leading us to do that?
For RN: while working did you ever think of one of your clients as a potential partner for your life. I know it is kind of a "Pretty Woman" situation but I am just curious to know if you had ever thought of imagining some of you private life coming out of your professional one.
CBGBConnisur
07-06-02, 00:10
Stranger99, I'm not too sure which workplace you were refering to where someone can be sued, did you mean the USA or did you mean Europe? Definitely in America, if a male worker gives any reference to a woman's physical appearance or sexuality, he can expect to lose his job or be sued, or both. I don't know about bosses in Europe asking such things of their female colleagues while I was working there. There is a strong feminist movement in Europe, however European feminists differ from their American counterparts in that they still enjoy men. That medical student wasn't the only case, there are many women who are pursuing education who work in this profession. In addition its not too uncommon to find men who offer sexual services, though in most cases these men offer their services to other men (homosexuals), in very few cases they are offered to heterosexual women. Case in point is Amsterdam, where 95 percent of services are offered to heterosexual and homosexual men.
I also agree with you Stranger99, that prostitution isn't exactly a high level profession but in most European countries it doesn't relegate the prostitute to the fringe of society. There are many people who do it for a while when they are young but it doesn
USBabe, I just thought reading between the lines when you mention 'sex worker' that it was something bizarre to you thats why I thought it to be a derogatory term.
Originally posted by stranger99 I think most of has have or had been with prostitutes. What led or is leading us to do that?
Well, I've been with prostitutes (of course), and what led ME to do that is I needed some pussy and either wasn't dating anyone right then or was in a foreign country where I didn't know anyone, and didn't feel like performing the delicate emotional surgery necessary to pick up a non-prostitute and cajole her into the sack. Pretty simple.
But I bet some other guys have gone to prostitutes to get some specific service they couldn't get "at home." Since I'm a complete dickhead, I don't even bother getting into a relationship with a gal who won't give me BOTH of the only two services I absolutely require, which are fuck and suck. Pretty basic.
RN (and Miller2K):
As to men sharing intimite stuff with sex workers. I think the reason is twofold. Firstly, there is the ... airplane effect (I don't know what else to call it). Two strangers on an airplane (or bus or whatever) meet and share their intimate details of their lives, and then go their own ways. It is safe to do because they know it won't ... leak into the rest of thier lives (which can't be said about disclosure to anyone you relate with regularly).
As to people being more direct and saying what they want in relationships. Hm. I know what I'm going to say doesn't *directly* address your comment, but it seems appropriate none the less.
I think the games we play in relationships have a useful purpose. To take the example you meantioned (about the woman not wanting to be seen the slutt) ... I suspect that with most women in that situation, they would much prefer that it happened "naturally", and that words to that effect are not exchanged.
In another sense, let us assume an aquaintance approached you and said he *really* liked you, found you magnetic, and would dearly like to enter a long-term relationship with you. He is definitely being up-front and honest. However he short-circuits some of the more "normal" dating rituals which serve a purpose. I suspect that, while you would feel flattered, you also wouldn't feel as comfortable as you would if he had invited you to go to some musical event.
His forthrightness puts the burden on you to respond when (in all likelyhood) you don't feel similarly. While this probably works fine with more centered women (who might suggest a musical event...), with many women I suspect his approach would fail miserably.
Just my thoughts.
Smiles, best wishes, and it's been a long times,
David
I'm one of the few who hasn't been with a prostitute.
Stranger99,
"A relationship is a mutual acceptance of the way we are." -- an ... interesting, and in many ways, beautiful thought.
USbabe,
I'll throw in a welcome (even an offical one if you like). I have to admitt that I don't remember if I have of yet. But yes, it is very nice to have a bit more parity in the discussion.
Miller2K,
I'll chime in. (Also, let me note, that I am almost envious that your THE HAPPIEST MAN ALIVE -- *smiles* such positivity.).
Originally posted by David
I'm one of the few who hasn't been with a prostitute.
Then what is your purpose for hanging around on the board? The board is for guys who want to know how, where, and when to find prostitutes, wherever they may be in the world. It ain't a fuckin' tea party for vicarious thrill seekers.
Please go to the home page and read this:
"MISSION STATEMENT: This is the World Sex Guide. Our mission is simple: Finding women and getting laid. If you are offended by stuff like this, I don't care. "
CBGBConnisur
07-06-02, 04:40
I think David is simply in denial, this site is strictly to exchange info on how to get laid, its made for men simply put to get laid.
Yes, we want useful information from people who have actually been with hookers in different places. I have posted actual, hopefully useful information about Méjico, Costa Rica, The Netherlands, Hong Kong, Australia, France, Malta, The Bahamas, several of the United States and a bunch of other places I disremember right now. Locations, prices, local practices, etc. This is what we men want to know. Does she do the poison dragon drill? Is she good at reverse cowgirl? Does she look good in a pearl necklace? What's the address? What hours are they open? How is security? Is the room clean? Does the gal provide the condoms or is it BYOB (bring your own bag)?
All these philosophical discussions are well and good but if the input is coming from a bunch of fucking sorority girls or naive frat boys with Coppertone tans who wouldn't know a hooker from a kick in the ass, what relevance does it have?
I mean, if we wanted perspectives on "American Women" from people who did NOT participate in prostitution, we could just sit in any Starbucks and listen to a bunch of scum sucking yuppies ***** about their wives while they finger their dicks through a hole in their pocket.
Someone has needed to say this for a long time and I am just the dickhead to say it. Monger and contribute or sit your quiche eating ass on the porch.
joe_zop, David...
You both are right. Maybe I did paint with too broad a brush. I should've made it clear what I meant to say. I was refering primarily to the group of men on this board who have made it a habit of whining about the horrible women in American when they are unwilling/unable to do the work to make themselves better people.
"The Airplane Effect" is a strong factor, but I think that there's more. Not to get too psycho-analytical, but I think that the relaxed state comes from the attainment of their primary goal (sex) combined with the "airplane effect". However, to the person with emotional problems, this release is many more times more extreme. The completion of the "act" represents acceptance (even for that brief moment) and, therefore, release. (Aside from the obvious physiological release). For the vast majority: We feel good, off-guard, and happy...so, we are more willing to open up. For the few with psychological/emotional problems it is an extreme rush that can be very addictive. This is off-topic, I know, but I think that there are a couple of these "emotional cripples" in this section of the board.
Changing topics...I have used prostitutes to meet a physiological need (sex). I've been living a gypsy-like existence for the last couple of years and, while I don't have many problems finding women, I think that it would be unfair to initiate relationships with women just to have sex when I knew that I really didn't want to be in a relationship at that moment. Instead of seducing women and making them think that I love them, I simply go to a sex-worker and take care of my needs. Right now, I have a girlfriend so my "hunting" days are over for now. I've been in one place for a while and things are going good and I'm in a position where I can give a woman all the attention she needs/deserves. Sex-workers play an important role in the world. If it wasn't for them, who knows what my bodily needs would've forced me to do. I might've been one of those, "love 'em and leave 'em" guys or, worse...some guy who whines on a message board about how terrible all american women are...
The stars are out tonight, big and bright. A girl is being serenaded by Mariachis down the street. I feel like ...
THE HAPPIEST MAN ALIVE....
Originally posted by miller2k
I have used prostitutes to meet a physiological need (sex). I've been living a gypsy-like existence for the last couple of years and, while I don't have many problems finding women, I think that it would be unfair to initiate relationships with women just to have sex when I knew that I really didn't want to be in a relationship at that moment. Instead of seducing women and making them think that I love them, I simply go to a sex-worker and take care of my needs.
Exactly! I'm a dickhead, not a liar, and I believe that (most) men (in general) give love to get sex while (most) women (in general)give sex to get love. This may work in the long run in certain cases, but leads to PRETENSE in the short run. And jacking off gets really boring and is not as satisfactory as meaningless sex. Although, I must say, no one jacks me off as well as I jack off myself. Before I read this board, I never realized that anyone would actually pay for a hand job and I am astounded that anyone would.
Rubber Nursey
07-06-02, 11:49
USBabe,
"I haven't read any other forums here, so I hope you'll forgive me when I did a double-take upon reading that you're a sex worker".
Don't worry...it happens all the time. I guess it seems strange to most to have a discussion with a sex worker, because a) most people presume that all hookers have very little education or intelligence (otherwise they would have a "real" job) and b) most sex workers do not speak out in the public arena, so it is odd to have a conversation with a woman who actually readily identifies as one. I'm not saying that you thought either of these things...just that it would be pretty commonplace if you did. :)
"This is a very personal question, and if you feel comfortable answering, I'd really appreciate it (and if you don't, I understand and hope that you aren't offended).... In no way am I trying to insult you, but the concept is completely foreign to me".
Please don't feel that you have to walk on eggshells around me. I am not easily offended, and I'm more than happy to answer any questions. As a matter of fact I appreciate when people ask questions, rather than just relying on myths and ugly stereotypes.
"How did you become a sex worker? I mean, was it a conscious choice or the best of your options at that time?"
Both. I was newly divorced with two children to support, and in severe financial difficulty, so I guess it was the best option I had at the time. BUT, it was also something I consciously chose to do to solve my problems...I figured it was a way I could get out of debt fast and still have the time to spend with my kids, at a time when they really needed their Mum (to adjust to the divorce). I could have just got a "normal" job if I'd wanted to, but that would have meant longer hours to make the same amount of money. Once I had started I found that I actually enjoyed it...and stayed in it for 5 years. I am not working at the moment, but I know it will always be an option for me in the future.
For the record, I have never done drugs, never worked the streets and never been arrested or involved in any other crime.
Rubber Nursey
07-06-02, 12:13
CBGB and Dickhead,
Now c'mon guys...I think your attack on David was pretty harsh. He has been posting here for a long time, from memory longer than both of you, and has always had something positive and interesting to say. If this board is only for "men looking for sex with prostitutes"...does that mean I should also leave? I have been here for a long time too, with Jackson's blessing. At least David has a penis!! LOL
Dickhead, you said: "All these philosophical discussions are well and good but if the input is coming from a bunch of fucking sorority girls or naive frat boys with Coppertone tans who wouldn't know a hooker from a kick in the ass, what relevance does it have?"
That's what these sections are...philosophical discussions and opinions. As far as I know, David doesn't post in the field report sections, and neither do I (other than a few bits of local info in the Oz section). But these opinion pages are for people interested in the subject of prostitution. Maybe David doesn't have any specific experience in the field to talk about...but does that make his thoughts on American women invalid? Are hookers and wh*remongers the only ones who have an opinion on the Morality of Prostitution?
There are two reasons why we should be more willing to allow "outsiders" into the Opinions and Editorials section of the forum....
a) We need to have opposition to create a debate, and we need to be questioned in order to create discussion. How mundane would it be if we all had exactly the same level of experience and the same opinions? and
b) Because the more "outsiders" learn about the industry, and pass that info onto others, the more chance there is that one day prostitution will be accepted by the community and sex workers will be able to work without the soul-destroying stigma that currently comes with the job.
Ok, I'll step back off my soapbox now. :)
Rubber Nursey
07-06-02, 12:36
Stranger,
"For RN: while working did you ever think of one of your clients as a potential partner for your life. I know it is kind of a "Pretty Woman" situation but I am just curious to know if you had ever thought of imagining some of you private life coming out of your professional one".
That's a really tricky one. I would like to have dated someone who, as a client, knew about my past...there's never a good time to say to a prospective partner "Oh yeah, and I've worked as a hooker for the last 5 years..."
BUT, it is also frightening to have a partner who DOES know about your past. If you break up badly they can ruin your life by telling everyone, they can throw it in your face in arguments and having them around is a permanent reminder of "what you were".
As far as Pretty Woman goes though...No. I was never looking to be "rescued". :)
And here is a strange thought, (one that really should be taken to the Morality section, rather than here)....just as he may view me as "damaged goods" or a sl*t or untrustworthy because of the stereotype of hookers, I would be just as likely to hold the stereotype of a client against him too. I would be unlikely to trust a man who I know has tasted the "forbidden delights" of the sex industry...I would always wonder if he was still seeing hookers behind my back, just as he would wonder if I was still secretly hooking!
And Joe....I think I just answered my own question to you in the other section! LOL D'oh!
Rubber Nursey
07-06-02, 12:49
And, to get myself back on topic...
David re: being brutally honest about what you want out of a relationship.
You're completely right about being TOO honest. If a man I just met told me he wanted to marry me and have ten kids, I would freak out and run! LOL What I was really getting at though, was honesty about OURSELVES. Dating has traditionally meant a lot of lying and trying to be someone we aren't. Why shouldn't we discuss issues of prostitution or politics or religion when the topics come up in the first stages of a relationship? Why should we tell someone that we love them just so we can get them into bed? Why do men say "Oh yeah, I love kids" to a single Mum when they really can't stand the sight of them? I'm not saying that we should be brutal...just honest.
You know, if a man I was attracted to kissed me at the end of a date and said "I can't make any promises about tomorrow, but right now I really want to sleep with you"...I would do it in a flash. I would appreciate his honesty and I would know where I stand. (And feel free to take that line and make it your own, boys...LOL)
I wish you wouldn't all post at once...it takes so long to catch up! :)
Originally posted by RN
Why do men say "Oh yeah, I love kids" to a single Mum when they really can't stand the sight of them?
Because they really do love the concept of having kids and would like to be in a relationship where they do so -- it's the reality of dealing with someone else's (meaning walking hip-deep into a nest of responsibility) they can't handle. No, it's not nice or fair, but it's not intentionally dishonest. As always -- and unfortunately -- there are several levels of truth, and everyone speaks the one they see best. It's the gods of relativity at work.
And Joe....I think I just answered my own question to you in the other section!
And with devastating accuracy, as always...
Originally posted by RN CBGB and Dickhead,
...I think your attack on David was pretty harsh. He has been posting here for a long time, from memory longer than both of you, and has always had something positive and interesting to say. If this board is only for "men looking for sex with prostitutes"...does that mean I should also leave? I have been here for a long time too, with Jackson's blessing. At least David has a penis!! LOL
Dickhead, you said: "All these philosophical discussions are well and good but if the input is coming from a bunch of fucking sorority girls or naive frat boys with Coppertone tans who wouldn't know a hooker from a kick in the ass, what relevance does it have?"
I hardly think what I said qualifies as an attack. I am just amazed that someone who has no experience with prostitutes would hang around on this board and I question their motives. I don't know anything about cricket, so when I am hanging around with Ozzies and Kiwis and they are talking about it, guess what I do? I shut the fuck up. YOU can stay because you have knowledge of prostitution. I mean, David posts in the Morality of Prostitution section as well as the American Women section. At least USBabe sticks to the latter. Anyone who has no experience with prostitution knows as much about the morality of prostitution as I know about the morality of menstruation.
This is my opinion and I am sticking to it. You won't find me in the Africa section, cuz I've never been there and you won't find me discussing the morality of homosexuality, or heroin use, or bashing Martha Stewart.
Rubber Nursey
07-06-02, 17:22
Dickhead,
Ok, so attack was maybe a strong word to use :) I didn't mean to attack YOU either with my post, but I wanted to defend David's right to be here. I wasn't really going to say this....but then I figured it's documented in the archives for all to see so I may as well....originally David came to this forum asking questions of a personal nature that were very much to do with the purpose of this board. He was looking for information on commercial sex services. Then from memory, he stayed around for a little while longer to defend me in a very volatile situation with some extremely cruel flamers. By that time he had become "part of the group" and joined in our conversations.
I was not saying that you don't have a right to believe he shouldn't be here...because of course, you do...but I felt I needed to defend David as he has done for me in the past.
And as for the Morality of Menstruation...there is none! That was a very cruel and spiteful stunt pulled by the God In Whom We Do Not Believe, and I for one am very pissed off at him!!
I'm not saying that David (or anyone else) doesn't have the right to be here (my country and your country, at least, are REASONABLY free countries and I don't know or care what country he is from). I'm just saying 1) the opinions of people with no experience in the matter are considerably less valuable than those of people with experience, IMO; and 2) I wonder why such people have an interest in the subject other than seeking cheap thrills.
Maybe the subject is of considerable "academic" interest to some people. I am willing to consider that possibility. BUT, if I had an interest in let's say skydiving, I wouldn't just participate in a chat room devoted to skydiving; I would JUMP OUT OF AN AIRPLANE!
Now maybe some of the people without experience in prostitution, who are participating on this board, are talking to people who have "jumped out of the plane" to decide whether or not they want to jump as well. That is fine, but eventually if you don't have the guts to jump out of the plane, you should leave the board to the jumpers. This is my opinion, but of course whenever one is judging my opinions, one must remember that I am, of course, and remain, and will probably remain, pretty much of a
Dickhead
It's a tough job, but someone has to do it!
Originally posted by Dickhead
I'm not saying that David (or anyone else) doesn't have the right to be here (my country and your country, at least, are REASONABLY free countries and I don't know or care what country he is from). I'm just saying 1) the opinions of people with no experience in the matter are considerably less valuable than those of people with experience, IMO; and 2) I wonder why such people have an interest in the subject other than seeking cheap thrills.
*Smiles*. I never thought this would cause controversy. Well, I'll respond (just this once) and hopefully this "thread" will die soon thereafter.
1) My inexperience is a large part of the reason I post so infrequently. I post on issues I can discuss intelligently, Morality, and American Women. While my perspective might not be the same as a ... john's, it is still (I believe) typically relevent.
2) Hey, don't knock cheep thrills *smiles*.
David
P.S. Thanks for the defense RN. It's a pity to clutter the board though. I'll send you an e-mail.
CBGBConnisur
07-07-02, 04:40
USBabe, you mention that there is an "exocitism" to European women that is a factor in play with many men's attraction to them. You say that there is something attractive about a foriegn accent. I've never heard such bunk, its interesting how you try to deconstruct and analyze everything. Are you writing some kind of dissertation on this or something? Let me just rip your 'exoticism' argument to shreds. Look up north at our neighbor Canada, on the surface, Canada isn't too different from the US, in fact in many ways its similar. Yet in contrast to the USA, in Canada relationships between men and women are far more harmonious than they are in the States. Case in point is that Canada has a lower divorce rate than the US. I have spent time in Vancouver and find that there is no exoticism at all to Canadian women yet I find them to be on average, very attractive. They tend to be on average more attractive than their US counterparts. On a side note, to anyone on the East coast looking to meet women out West, forget about LA, go to Vancouver instead!! Its much better in Vancouver. The real factor in play is how a women takes care of herself. And European women on average are easily healthier than their American counterparts. After spending a over a year in Europe and returning to States I just couldn't help but notice how overweight and pale so many people were, and then when I returned to Europe for a brief visit with my fiancee, I noticed how healthy and attractive people looked. What this all boils down to is economics, in the US there is WIDE disparity between economic groups and therefore people in the lower economic spectrum don't have access to high quality healthcare, a healthy living environment, and nourishment and such. There is also more egalitarian access to education in Europe than in the States, where college students pay minimal or no fees to get an education. There have been studies that prove that individuals who have access to high quality healthcare and education tend to be overall healthier and, in addition, they tend to maintain their health better than those who don't have such access. So with more social equality people are better able to care for themselves. In addition, they have higher self-esteem as well. But lets face the result, USBabe, the proportion of physically attractive European women is much higher than the proportion of physically attractive American women. Even a good number of friends from Europe who live in the States keep reminding me of this.
CBGB... As a Canadian I can tell you that you are, in my estimation, only half right about Canada. Yes... there are more fat slobs in the US (and the largest in Canada cannot compete in the same class as the largest in the US) and I think the reasons are that 1) Canadians are better educated (as you mentioned) and 2) that Canadians are actually embarrassed to be slobs (whereas Americans have the arrogant "I am who I am and fuck you" attitude). I don't agree with you when you say that generally Canadians are better looking though. I see just as many hot girls walking around Tampa as I do in Toronto... the difference is that, statistically speaking, there are more slobs per capita in the US to which our eyes are drawn. I have also found that there is most definitely an exoticism in Toronto and Vancouver. White folk are a minority in these towns. When I enter Toronto from the US I'm stunned by the amount of colours I see on the street.
The more I pay attention to peoples ideas and values in the US the more I realise what a fucked up country it is. It has natural beauty (and money) but, as Stranger pointed out, it's BORING. The same bland restaurants, the same bland architecture, and the same bland (brainwashed, xenophobic, and paranoid) people from east to west. I mentioned before about finding the diamond amongst the lumps of coal and I think I can expand on this metaphor a bit further. The problem with American Women is not that there are no diamonds to be found: the problem is that there is too much coal to sift through to find the diamonds. There's a simple economic principle involved here. Why should I mine diamonds in the US, where the cost is $20 per tonne of coal vs profits of $100 per diamond, when I can go to Europe where the price is $10 per tonne of coal vs profits of $100 per diamond.
At this point I'm not totally bitter about American Women... I'm still able to pick up easily enough so I'll keep trying to sift through all that coal and find the diamond. Yes, the cost is higher, but apparently I'm either a glutton for punishment or too much of an optimist.
CBGB also said... "USBabe, you mention that there is an "exocitism" to European women that is a factor in play with many men's attraction to them. You say that there is something attractive about a foriegn accent. I've never heard such bunk,..."
Sorry... but I agree with USbabe. Hearing my German friend's breath whispering in my ear as I slipped my cock into her was enough to send a ripple down my spine. It's not just the accent, it's the slight differences in mannerisms and inflections that make a foreign girl seem more attractive.
Hey Dickhead... I'm still young and inexperienced in life, mongering, and dating. At what point do my opinions, and the opinions of others, become of significant value to this discussion? Are peripheral ideas and thoughts invalid? Should I leave and come back in 20 years?
Originally posted by Fedup
Hey Dickhead... I'm still young and inexperienced in life, mongering, and dating. At what point do my opinions, and the opinions of others, become of significant value to this discussion? Are peripheral ideas and thoughts invalid? Should I leave and come back in 20 years?
The more experience you get, the more valuable and valid your opinions will be, I personally think. It's one thing to be "inexperienced in mongering" and another thing to be hanging around on a prostitution board when you've NEVER been with a hooker.
Dickhead, while I agree with you to some extent about the value of people who speak from massive direct experience, people with brains as well as dicks (and, in the case of RN and USbabe, with alternatives to the latter) are in short enough supply that I'm loathe to scare any of them off :)
Originally posted by Fedup
CBGB... As a Canadian I can tell you that you are, in my estimation, only half right about Canada. Yes... there are more fat slobs in the US (and the largest in Canada cannot compete in the same class as the largest in the US) and I think the reasons are that 1) Canadians are better educated (as you mentioned)
FU, I don't know how you define "better educated," but I researched this a little since I had always read and heard the opposite. My sources are census data from Canada's latest (1996) census, obtained from www.statcan, and US census data released in March 2000 (I looked back a few years farther and saw no significant obvious change), obtained from www.census.gov/population/socdem/education.
According to these sources, 35% of Canadians 15 and over have less than a high school diploma, while 84% of Americans 25 and over are high school graduates. The difference in ages makes this comparison a bit shaky.
Again according to these sources, 17% of Canadians between 25 and 64 had university degrees, whereas 26% of Americans 25 and over had bachelor's degrees. Since the Canadian website says that "The 1996 Census showed that Canadians continued to attain higher levels of education, a trend observed since the early 1950s," it can be inferred that the number of Canadians 25 or over with university degrees is lower than 17% in total (adding in those 65 and over).
Granted, education and ignorance are not mutually exclusive, and based on my fairly limited experience in Canada, I do agree we have more slobs in the US. But, at least based on these numbers, we are better educated slobs!
If you have some other numbers that support your claim, I'd be interested to see them, truly. Next thing I'm gonna research, if I can find it, is the relative educational levels of the high school TEACHERS in the two countries.
In the US, educational levels vary fairly widely across geographic areas. My guess is the same is true of Canada. For example, Arkansas has the lowest percentage of college graduates (I think the number was 16% but don't quote me; maybe it was 18%) while Colorado is the state with the highest percentage, approximately double Arkansas' percentage (36% I think but I didn't write it down; anyone interested in the exact number can go to the website). Although, it should be noted that the District of Columbia has an even higher percentage of college graduates than Colorado (again, these numbers are based on those 25 years of age or older).
Dickhead does his homework!
Originally posted by joe_zop
Dickhead, while I agree with you to some extent about the value of people who speak from massive direct experience, people with brains as well as dicks (and, in the case of RN and USbabe, with alternatives to the latter) are in short enough supply that I'm loathe to scare any of them off :)
Don't wanna scare anyone off. Just stirring up shit as usual. And, nothing personal against David. BUT, I would be interested in a response from him as to why he frequents the board if he doesn't want to screw any hookers.
Sorry, don't understand your comment about "brains as well as dicks"; you mean there's a difference? I thought dicks were for thinking with and brains were to be used as a hat rack.
A fairly quick search seems to indicate no obvious differences in the educational levels of high school teachers in Canada vs. the US. However, further examination of the census data (trust the government and its data as much or as little as you like) shows that as of 1996, 21% of Canadians aged 20-29 had NOT graduated from high school, while only 12% of Americans aged 25-29 had not graduated from high school. The US census data refers to high school graduation levels as being "stable" at 85-88%.
2.22% of Canadians 15 and over had master's degrees and 0.46% had earned doctorates. I know from my own research that the percentages in the US are over twice as high for master's degrees (appx 5-6%), but again fairness requires me to emphasize that the only figures I have found for Canada are for those aged 15 and over.
However, only about 20% of Canadians are between 15 and 24, inclusive, indicating that even when adjusting for the differences in the age brackets, the percentage of Canadians with advanced degrees is still lower.
So: Lower percentage of high school graduates, college graduates, AND persons with advanced degrees in Canada as opposed to the United States. The women here still leave quite a bit to be desired, and you sure as hell don't need to be real well educated to either be a hooker or to enjoy their services.
Just defending my native country as best I can. No offense (or offence!) to the beautiful country of Canada.
CBGBConnisur
07-08-02, 01:03
Dickhead I see you have done your homework on Canada, I'm surprised there are few college grads in Canada than the US, especially since education in Canada is far less expensive. But those numbers are very decieving if you check the OECD PISA ratings. Canada has the one of the best educated students in the world. Reading, Math, and Science scores are the 3rd and 4th highest in the world. In overall performance in school, most European countries beat US students in their Math, Reading, and Science aptitudes. This year the US beat Italy and Germany in the PISA ratings (this creating a big uproar in Germany which has taken great pride in its education system). Japan and Korea have the best school systems according to this OECD study.
FedUp, I guess its a matter of you say to-ma-to and I say ta-ma-ta, maybe the foriegn accent makes someone more attractive to you, it certainly doesn't hurt. But I feel that is only part of it, and how the women holds herself in her whole being is more important. I recently visited Montreal, and just could not believe the proportion of beautiful women in that wonderful city, in fact it was higher than in Vancouver. But overall, I just feel sex and romance is the pits in the US. There are simply too many barriers between people these days. FedUp, you also mention xenophobia, that is a major issue for me, since I am, for lack of a better term, pigmentally challenged, I am part Mexican part Japanese, and I feel my ethnic background makes me a target of discrimination in the US. I feel if I approach someone of another background they often see my outside ethnic appearance and immediately move away. I happen to live in New York, which by most means is fairly tolerant, but there is a lot of xenophobia in NY which makes my life difficult, and I feel there is far less xenophobia in Europe and Canada, a contrast to the way it is in the US. Although California maybe a bit of an exception but not too much.
Also I find your Europe vs. USA diamond and coal analogy on the money but I have a more drastic opinion of woman finding in the US, when you mine for diamonds(the right woman) in the USA, it costs you about $200 per tonne of coal vs profits of $100 per diamond, In Europe, diamond mining costs you about $20 per tonne of Coal vs profits of $200 per diamond. Meaning women and romance in Europe is CHEAPER and BETTER!!! This is especially true for sexual services, as in most European countries prostitutes cost as much as one tenth as they do in America. Take for example Germany, I go to an FKK and pay a simple 50 Euros for the sex of my life with a amazing beautiful woman, in a brothel in NY a women approaching the same quality will charge me anywhere from 400-500 US Dollars and on top of that the service 99.9 % rarely approaches Germany, so you pay a lot more for it in America and you get less satisfaction or profit. That is a major difference.
Now on to who's fatter. It took a while to find consistent definitions. Defining obesity as having a body mass index greater than 30%, and using obesitycanada.com as my Canadian source and the Center for Disease Control as my US source, 1996 statistics for Canada say 12% of Canadians are obese while a far greater percentage of Americans, 19.8% are obese according to 2000 data. 35% of Canadian men are defined as overweight and 27% of Canadian women. I started to read the US statistics for a further breakdown but became sickened and disgusted, so I stopped.
So, FU, to oversimplify, it appears you have more dropouts but we have more lard asses. Comes as no surprise to me.
Originally posted by CBGBConnisur
Dickhead I see you have done your homework on Canada, I'm surprised there are few college grads in Canada than the US, especially since education in Canada is far less expensive. But those numbers are very decieving if you check the OECD PISA ratings. Canada has the one of the best educated students in the world. Reading, Math, and Science scores are the 3rd and 4th highest in the world. In overall performance in school, most European countries beat US students in their Math, Reading, and Science aptitudes. This year the US beat Italy and Germany in the PISA ratings (this creating a big uproar in Germany which has taken great pride in its education system). Japan and Korea have the best school systems according to this OECD study.
First let me state that I am a high school dropout (never have graduated to this day and no G.E.D. either) and a college professor (scary, huh? I do have a master's degree and have completed 27 of 36 hours towards a second one). Having said that, I feel the joker in this deck is: what components of any given country's population takes these types of standardized tests? Canada, like many European countries, has a "two-track" approach to high school, where some students are tracked towards university education and others towards vocational or trade-type paths. We don't do this in the US, at least not overtly. I don't have a definite opinion on whether a two-track approach is good or bad as I have not researched this. The socialist egalitarian in me says it's bad while the pragmatist in me says it's realistic and therefore correct. But, it does skew the data, since I think a higher percentage of US students make it to the point of being included in these aptitude tests.
Having said that, I will say that I think high school in the United States is way too easy, a great big joke in fact, and that's PART of the reason I accidentally disremembered to finish high school. I see functional illiterates in my college classroom all the time. It's very scary. Since I'm a dickhead, I just flunk them and leave the problem for other, more qualified people to address. To quote one of my own undergraduate professors, "all I can do about that is apologize."
Originally posted by CBGBConnisur . Japan and Korea have the best school systems according to this OECD study.
I taught at a Japanese university (Teikyo Loretto) and have also had many Japanese students at the other universities at which I've taught. Also, there were many Japanese students in my first graduate program (I fucked a couple of them but I got sick of taking three showers to get laid twice!). My opinion is that their educational system emphasizes rote memorization at the expense of developing critical thinking skills. Some of this can be blamed on a "culture of consensus." Yes, their math skills on average were better than the math skills of American undergraduates I've taught, but in general they could not think for themselves and lacked initiative and creativity in business contexts, especially in entrepreneurial type situations. Also and importantly, in my experience they were NO fun to party with.
I've been far more impressed with my Chinese (PRC as well as ROC) students. They WERE fun to party with and weren't afraid to challenge my opinion if they disagreed with it. However, it is certainly possible that I was getting the very, very best of the brightest more so in the case of the Chinese than the Japanese. I've only ever had one Korean student so can't comment there but she was one of the best students I've ever had and a stone fox as well (I have never had sex with a current or former student and don't plan to = don't shit where you eat, but I can LOOK). Can't speak to science skills as that is not my forté.
Hmm, some scary similarities here, Dickhead. I, too, lack a high school diploma, as I was an early college entrant. (Did have to get the GED for a job once -- shook 'em up because I didn't take any of their classes and got a perfect score.) I took it one step further and technically never actually got my undergrad degree, as I never turned in a paper for a class a loooong time ago. Yet I also taught at the college level, both undergrad and grad level at a major university, for about five years, till I discovered I was as bored at universities as a prof as I'd been as a student, and the social penalties for wandering around there drunk or stoned were greater. ;)
That said, I found my Korean grad students to fall in between what you describe with Japanese and Chinese (my opinion of whom mostly matches yours.) They also come out of a fairly regimented system and have all that overly-problematic classroom shyness and deference when in the American system, but for the most part they were far more creative, far more willing to take risks, and far more able to be critical thinkers about both our and their own societal constructs. And they're far more fun to party with than the Japanese students, though not as much as the Chinese. Can't speak to sleeping with any in that context, as, again, my rules are the same as yours.
Well, if you want to get scarier, I am entering Year Six of teaching at universities, not counting being a grad assistant. The one I'm at now is definitely major but the others maybe not. I'm not bored yet, but maybe that's because I march to the beat of my own drummer and ignore what I'm "supposed" to do, or maybe it's because I keep teaching different classes in different subjects at different levels every year, or maybe it's because I blaze up as needed. Or, maybe it's because every other job I had before was arguably way more boring. I mean, I was a letter carrier for 8 years and I didn't think THAT was boring so maybe I'm just an earhole.
But I sure as hell wasn't an "early college entrant" as I did not take my first college course until I was 31 years old. I dropped out of 10th grade when I was 15 and began my mongering travels. I do have an undergraduate degree but it is completely unrelated to the fields in which I have been teaching.
However, the scariest thing of all is that my student loans will be paid off the exact month I am eligible for Social Security ... assuming there IS any Social Security and assuming I bother to pay them off instead of just leaving the country. Oh, wait a minute, if I don't pay them off they will deduct them from my Social Security check.
I always figured I'd die young but now it's too late ...
Well, I should clarify -- the job itself was definitely not boring, nor the students, and I very much enjoyed teaching; I just find the university system as a whole moves far too glacially and annoyingly for me. And I generally prefer playing with live ammunition -- not that some students aren't made of that.
But this is waaay off topic.
Well, to put it back on topic, the first full-time teaching job I had was in a small town where I did not know a soul. Xmas break arrives and I decide to celebrate at one of the few local bars. There I run into an American Woman who is a grad assistant (but not a teaching assistant) in our department (but does not work for me). I have barely met her. We have a few beers and she says she is thinking about going to one of the casinos in an adjoing state. She asks me if I am familiar with casinos and/or gambling. I tell her I used to live in Nevada and the casinos there make the ones in State X look like a toy. She suggests we go to State X, a drive of several hours. I say, hey, aren't you engaged to Student Y (not one of my students nor personally known to me)? She says yeah but I'm pissed at him. Dickhead has not knowingly fucked a married woman since reaching the age of majority (before that it's their fault, right?) but engaged is another story.
So off we go and it's drink and fuck and suck and gamble for three days. Then it's time to go back and the guilt hits (her, not me; I have nothing to feel guilty about). Have you ever had a woman cry continuously for 350 miles?
SHE doesn't return for spring semester, Boyfriend X doesn't return for spring semester, and Dickhead gets the icicle treatment from the whole rest of the department. Department head says at the first meeting of the spring semester, "Well, grad assistant isn't coming back, thanks to Dickhead." Everyone in the room is staring at me. No idea whether she told the department head or whether someone saw us making out in the bar or what.
This is typical of the type of shit American Women pull with their insecurity and their immaturity about sex. Probably she immediately told Boyfriend X the whole story. The pussy wasn't worth the subsequent aggravation and ostracism.
Originally posted by CBGBConnisur
I feel my ethnic background makes me a target of discrimination in the US.
Why do you then feel it's okay for you to discriminate against women because of the way they look (their weight, the fact that they're American, or that they aren't attractive enough for you)?
I doubt it feels good. But there IS something you can do. Open your mind and treat people as individuals instead of lumping them all together to fit whatever molds you've fabricated for them.
Just as people of one heritage aren't all the same, neither are all women of one nation. It's no crime to prefer one type of woman, but to squeeze all American women into one small narrow box is no different from squeezing all American men into the same one either. Billy Joel, Bill Gates, Tommy Lee (Pamela's ex -- I'm not sure if that's his name), and many other American men are not exactly conventionally handsome. Shall I then say that American men cannot hold a candle to their European counterparts? Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and an entire slew of scumbags are American men. Shall I then put you in the same boat and claim that all American men are violent and hateful?
No, I like men and know and appreciate that they come in many varieties! And I also realize that ultimately what's on the inside is far more important than what's on the outside. A lousy attitude cannot and will not ever overcome even the body of a Greek god.
CBGB, I have no doubt that this message will infuriate you to no end. But, before you fly off the handle again and start calling names and spewing venom, please take a very long look in the mirror. You're treating others the way you hate to be treated. You're digging your own social grave.
One can lie to the world and get away with it. But as soon as we lie to ourselves (but more importantly, continue to do so), our lives are worthless. Intelligent people with willpower, determination, and hard work can persevere and WIN! I've personally always looked up to men for their strength. Strength comes in many forms. Those who admit their faults, open their minds, and grow and learn will be admired by far more women than they may ever realize.
This is my last message, and I will be unable to read any more forum. To those who have been open-minded and polite to me, I am most grateful. I wish you lots and lots of mind-blowing sex with the wonderful women you deserve!
Ciao.
Well Dickhead... as I don't really care about numbers that much I will simply tell you that quantity does not equal quality. A student of a Canadian community college (less esteemed than a university) with a 3 year degree in architecture is able to take a test for US certification. If they pass, they're in... passed a course that's four years at a US university. Also: Why does the US so actively pursue Canadian nursing students? (Sorry RN... not that kind of nursery... although I'm sure you'd be welcomed). A better quality education is key... not diplomas handed out like trinkets to support college football teams and inflate the national numbers to look good on the international stage. Besides... when was the last time you heard of metal detector in a Canadian high school?
This topic did start as a reasonable one... education. The American education system teaches an abstinence platform which pretty much flies in the face of human sexuality. Coupled with, as someone else said before me, false puritanism; the American Woman is bound to come out with warped attitudes about sex. The guys are constantly shown scantily clad women on every ad, TV, pop can, and matchbook; thus developing a false impression of what a woman is.
But we've been over this one before...
as always, I'm...
Fedup
Ciao... It was nice having ya around.
CBGBConnisur
07-08-02, 04:24
USBabe, In a weird way, I kind of like you. Do you know why? You just keep reminding me of what it is that I find wrong with American women. You just made reminded me how much better I have it in Europe, and that's why I'm moving there, permanently. I rather be married there in a less hostile environment. Oh yeah you quoted my comment on I having issues with racism. Well you really wouldn't be able to understand that, being the spoiled rich woman(you said you went 3 times last year to Paris, that can cost a small fortune) you are living in your sheltered world. Ever heard the expression once bitten twice shy? Most of my views are not prejudgements, they're based on my experiences. I feel dating is easier in Europe, much easier. And go ahead you can just say European men look better than American men. Its no secret, heck, when I visited Holland last year, I thought the concierge at my hotel looked like Brad Pitt, not to imply anything on that, but I couldn't help but noticed that he seemed a little too good looking to be a concierge. I am equal opportunity. Lets face it life is short, and I don't put up with shit and I have putten up with a lot of shit in my life. When I was in Europe I just couldn't believe how attractive I found women to be. And on top of that, their friendliness and openness, highlighted their physical beauty. I'm a real nice guy in real life, and a softie, my soft mannerisms seem to strike a chord with the European females. In fact most European women prefer softness in male partner to machismo and assertiveness. In America, its the reverse, a man has to be a macho assertive guy to meet women. I always wondered why when I was in college so many of the best looking women I knew dated football players. They just seem to love aggressive pricks I guess. Some people like one thing and they can hate another thing, its called free will.
I guess I had my last post reported to the WSG BIG BROTHER. Well, I'll keep it less inflammatory this time. Don't really want to get into the US-Canada shit tossing contest too much since Canada, no matter what its "fine citizens have to say" is still considered to be our little retarded brother... and with good reason.
Canadians bash us all the time but who really cares? When the chips are on the table and the bad guys come gunning for us, we'll still protect our little retarded brother.
Have news for you FedUp... The US pursues RNs from all over the globe since there is a shortage here, not because you produce better ones than are produced here. You know why Canada doesn't pursue US nurses as vigorously? You guys can't afford 'em.
When was the last time a US citizen tried passing themselves off as Canadian? I'm not saying Canada is a bad place to live but it is a good place to leave.
Actually FU, I'm a little older than you as we know, but when I was in public school in the US they did not teach an "abstinence platform"; they taught a ZERO platform as far as sex was concerned. In other words, the subject was ignored completely.
What do they teach in Canada, sex education-wise? My latest knowledge of US public schools' sex education is that it falls under the heading of "local control" in many instances; i.e., no consistency and wide variations depending on how conservative the particular locality is (or isn't). Where I live now they do at least teach about contraception but not to the point of actually showing or talking about how to use it effectively.
Hope you know I'm not bashing Canada here. The Canadians I hang with most often lately are from Saskatchewan and they tell me things are more conservative there than elsewhere in Canada. This is probably similar to the US in that the coasts are more liberal and the central areas more conservative???
But I do question what you said about diplomas being handed out like trinkets to support athletics as a large majority of college athletes in the US do NOT graduate, and no one seems to care, and that sucks even worse. Also, I will say that a weakness in the data I found on both of our countries' census sites is that community college or 2-year degrees did not seem to be well identified. I am a product of the US community college system, and would not be where I am (wherever that is) without it, and I respect it to a certain degree.
Also I agree with Ceebee Jeebie that your nurse example is somewhat flawed, cuz EVERY country wants to hire nurses from WHATEVER country, to my understanding.
Teacher shortage, nurse shortage, prostitute shortage, shortage of CPAs .... PAY MORE and the shortage will go away. Economics 101. I guess the politicians slept through that class.
Stranger99
07-08-02, 19:38
I am not sure which scale are we using here to compare one country to the other.
If it is merely the economic scale then there is no doubt: US wins over the rest of the globe (maybe excluding Switzerland, which is neutral anyhow).
But I am not sure on what other scale would the US be the No.1 country.
Statistics is always misleading in judging the culture of a population. If I am not mistaken, I believe that a while ago a statistical study confirmed that the majority of the American people interviewed thought that New Mexico was actually in Mexico.
There should be no doubt whatsoever that culture is a broader term that cannot be limited to a high school diploma.
How many countries, cultures, languages, people do you know other than yours? These are the things that define how open minded (and in my opinion, educated) you are.
But then , having a President that, before being elected, had never gone out of the country other than in Mexico (spring break 1966) there is not much to expect.
Kaffir said... "When was the last time a US citizen tried passing themselves off as Canadian?"...
This happens DAILY. When I was up in Toronto a few weeks ago I bought a Roots Canada (it has a Canadian flag on it... they can only be bought inside Canada) t-shirt for my American GF. She was sooooo happy to see the shirt she clapped her hands and then jumped me. Why???... Because she travels to Europe frequently and Americans are treated like crap while Canadians are treated like royalty (I have more examples if you want). Talk to any student who has traveled abroad and they will all tell you that the best way to make friends is to sew a Canadian flag onto your coat or backpack. I said once before that Americans are fine as individuals (although there are always losers to be found in any place), but are pricks as a country. The problem is their ignorance of the world (a recent survey revealed that most don't even know who Koffi Anan or Jean Chretien are) and their arrogance as "the best in the world". It's time for America to step to the other side of the fence and take a good look at themselves... they may not like what they see... the rest of the world doesn't. The only country that sees Canada as "the retarded little brother" is America... but just wait until you need our water... you'll be paying DEARLY.
This is my last post on the subject. While I may be able to argue that American Women are arrogant and ignorant it's a bit of a stretch to be on topic.
Dickhead... With regard to your question of what is taught in Canadian sex education courses: When I was in high school in the 80's I was taught about reproductive systems, birth control, STD's, fallacies (such as pulling out before it's too late), and was also given demonstrations on how to roll on a condom (on a dildo held by the teacher). Since I've left, I've read that the age at which this course is taught has been lowered, and that material has been added to include drug use/abuse. Course material is mandated by the federal government with the provincial governments able to create their own methods of teaching the material. Saskatchewan is one of the least populated provinces in Canada and is likely closer to the church and conservatism. It's likely a small town attitude vs the big city attitude that you see everywhere.
Nursing was perhaps a bad example. As the baby boomers age there are far less people who want to clean up the shit stains that the elderly leave in their pants. Trades (construction) are next in line... In about 10 years I'll be making that triple digit income we all aspire to... and I'll have grease under my nails while doing it.
Okay... Canada is a better country than the US! Where can I sign up?
I can't wait to hear April Wine and Moxie, Triumph and Alan Thicke on the radio 24/7. I also can't wait to spend some of that pretty colored money. And the Canadian football is something else, ain't it?
BTW, if the US really needs Canadian water, won't they just take it like they did all that Mexican land way back when? My former countrymen are such bastards!
CBGBConnisur
07-08-02, 23:53
Europe, Canada, and America are good and bad for the specific person. If you're aim in life is to get filthy stinking rich, by all means the USA is the BEST place to do it. If you want to have a active social life outside of a job and long vacations as well as time for doing other things like having hot sex Europe is WAY above America, I can't help but notice how many fat cows I have to see in NYC before I meet a diamond, its not like that in Europe, with the exception of the UK and Ireland, most European women seem to take good care of themselves and that makes them better lovers, it also makes for hotter sex.
Dickhead, only 19 percent of Americans obese? There's got to be something wrong with those statistics. I went out for a long walk around Manhattan this weekend and saw about 7 fat women for every 3 in shape women on the street. I did something like this in Paris, and my ratio was like 8 in shape women for 2 fat women, and on top of that most of the overweight women in Paris were obviously over 40. Almost half the fat women I saw in NYC were in their 20's.
"Obese" is fatter than "overweight." If you see my earlier post, the "overweight" numbers were way higher, like I think close to 40%. But as FU says, we're off topic here.
Thanks, FU. I hope you realize/realise that I was genuinely curious. The powers that be would shred their collective shorts here in the US if a teacher used a dildo to demonstrate condom use (well, assuming they knew what the word "dildo" meant, which is by no means a given!). Drug education is fucked up here too since of course all drugs are presumed to be equally bad.
Maybe off topic, but I hereby call on my country to yank its head out of its ass and start teaching birth control in the public schools on a practical, no-nonsense basis.
Then the next step is to start teaching sex education, as in education as to how sex can be enjoyed safely and pleasurably, and how to develop sexual skills. How is this any different than drivers' education?
Oh, wait a minute, we stopped teaching that in American public schools too. Along with physical education ... could that maybe possibly have anything to do with our obesity problem? Nah, couldn't be.
Again, all I can do about this is apologize/apologise. Or emigrate. Too bad it has to come to that.
I love my country. I hate my country. I am proud to be an American. I am ashamed to be an American.
I need some safe drugs right now, and some safe sex right now. I need a plane ticket to Méjico or Costa Rica or Australia or The Netherlands. Maybe I need a kick in the ass.
Ahh fuck it; I'll just go get some beer and forget about it. Oh, wait a minute, I can't because some fucks decided you can't sell beer after 11 PM.
Oohhhhhhhhhhhhhh....Fed up is Canadian....This explains a lot. Many questions have been answered....'Nuff said
:) :) :) :) :) :) ;)
RN,
I guess it was more miscommunication than disagreement. You say "don't be dishonest", I say ... ~"don't be too blunt / move too fast". I suspect we both agree with each other.
Dickhead,
If you want further explanation, send me an e-mail (Pachelbels_Canon_In_D_Major@hotmail.com).
Also, in the US, while Sex-Ed is under local control, to get Federal monies, you have to have an "abstinence" platform.
USbabe,
It was a pleasure ... please enjoy the till next time.
Smiles,
David
Border Rat
07-09-02, 19:33
OFF TOPIC
kaffir, I recently found out some interesting facts about the US taking the mexican's land in the mid 1800's. Living on the border and spending a lot of time in central mexico, I got tired of saying sorry to all the mexicans for that. So I did a little research on the internet. As it turns out, the whole mexican-american war was fought because Mexico would not recognize that the Republic of Texas was it's own country after the revolution and the Treaty of Velasco. Texas wanted to join the Union, but Mexico said no. So we kicked their butts all the way back to Mexico City and got them to agree to the Treaty of Guadelupe Hidalgo which involved the sale of most of what is now the SW U.S for 15 million. This sale was reparations for a war they started and also compensation for several million in unpaid loans to the US. Also, the area sold contained less than 1% of the mexican population. Who would have thought? I should have known that mexican cantinas were not the best place to learn US history.
To keep this post relevant, I agree that US women are materialistic and less affectionate than their foreign counterparts. However, I believe that foreign women cannot be trusted as there is always a hidden agenda. Monger all you want outside the US, but any relationship that is attempted is indeed a cut-rate one. Unless of course, you are old and grey. Then the company of a young sexy girl is worth any price.
border rat,
I was just pulling on FU's ñeg a little with that MEX-US territorial spat comment... I really don't have anything against Canadians either but it is true that when I run into them in another country (Turkey, Italy, Germany, Africa, wherever) it seems they're always )(and I mean always) bashing the US. I can get away with them telling these tales for a long time without them realizing I am a US citizen because I am not white. The thing about it is, that when I listen to them bad mouthing the US, it really does sound like someone speaking from an inferiority complex.
Peace to everyone! Go forth and SPANK SOME ASS!
CBGBConnisur
07-12-02, 02:58
Sex Wars Part 2: Attack of the Flames
When we left our hero CBGBConnisur and our villain USBabe, they argued over the issue of American women, it seems as though CBGB has won the battle. CBGB has saved the universe from the dark side that is USBabe and has made the universe safe for single men looking for sex with hot beautiful European women. He has ended the brainwashing mind control that USBabe has put on men that has prevented them from living out their fantasies. Until the next episode.....
umm... yah... sure...
thanks for helping to drive off a moderate female mind who was obviously interested in changing her perceptions, as well as ours...
job well done...
well genius... what should we talk about now?
As I believe in democracy, let's take a vote.
A) USBabe was a valuable contributor and CBGB was an asshole for flaming her off the board.
B) USBabe was a pain in the ass and thanks go to CBGB for driving her away.
C) USBabe was overly sensitive and should have stuck around despite some flak in her direction.
D) Dickhead is an asshole and should shut the fuck up.
E) (write in vote).
More than one of the above may be correct.
Rubber Nursey
07-12-02, 04:52
Dickhead,
Can I pick D? (Just 'coz I pictured myself in leather, telling you to shut the fuck up with each crack of the whip *wicked grin*)
Seriously though, I would like to have seen USBabe hang around. It can be hard though, when there is so much testosterone flying around this forum....
RN: D & S (aka B & D) is not my bag. Dickhead just likes F & S. But it seems you are into leather? Too hot and sweaty for me.
Now if you have some nice silk scarves, I will tie YOU up. Ain't nobody gonna tie ME up = double standard. All I can do about that is apologize.
Rubber Nursey
07-12-02, 05:14
Well, well Dickhead..
Seems you and I are a match made in heaven! LOL B&D actually does nothing much for me either...I was just taking the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140). However, I do have a bit of a soft spot for silk scarves (and trust me...I don't mind taking a break from my little feminist soapbox and playing submissive every once in a while ;))
And I don't mind your double standards. Why would I want to tie YOU up?? Anyway, with my memory the way it is....I'd probably wander off and accidentally leave you there...
Well Rub I bet you gotta lotta soft spots here and there and everywhere. When I think about a Rubber Nursey it makes me think about a brand of pencil eraser known as a "Pink Pet" and how a pencil eraser kinda protrudes a bit like a clitoris and how pink a clitoris really is except when it gets engorged with blood and becomes purplish and then other stuff gets engorged and I can't sleep cuz I don't have enough skin left to shut my eyelids ...
Dickhead is diligently dodging his demented demons who are demanding degenerate, deviant and decadent delicacies ... dreaming of décolletage.
Rubber Nursey
07-12-02, 07:19
My goodness Dickhead...
Is there a 911 number for emergency blowjobs??? You sound like you are in urgent need of one...before you spontaneously combust!! *grin*
Not in this country, unfortunately. I feel particularly sorry for paraplegics and those with arthritis or even those with a weak grip.
Now if I were in Sydney, I could go to The Penthouse and for $54.44 US at the latest exchange rate, my problem would be solved by a qualified professional prostitute practicing safe sex. There'd be a bit of a language barrier of course, since as an American I don't speak very good English, but we'd work it out (and in, and out, and in ...)
Or I could be in any Latin American country and could get my problem solved even more inexpensively without any language barriers.
But been there done that as much as possible for the last five years, and My God in whom I don't believe it was grand, and so now I am "pecuniarily challenged" = too broke to buy a low cut dress for a hummingbird. I am not too lame to get laid here in my home country but of course delicate emotional surgery is required and it is rather tough to get laid on an emergency basis in the US.
One thing you can say for masturbation: you certainly don't have to look your best. Evil is the root of all money.
CBGBConnisur
07-12-02, 14:14
Dickhead, you could also get your problem solved up North in Montreal Canada or in Vancouver, its perfectly legal over there too.
Originally posted by CBGBConnisur
Dickhead, you could also get your problem solved up North in Montreal Canada or in Vancouver, its perfectly legal over there too.
Yes, I have solved my problem in Vancouver several times but it's rather expensive by my standards. Haven't been to Montreal but I'll probably get around to it some day. I lurked on the Canada board a bit and it seems a bit expensive there too, and it's also an expensive place to get to for me, relatively speaking.
"Dickhead, you could also get your problem solved up North in Montreal Canada or in Vancouver, its perfectly legal over there too"
The only way to do it legally in Canada is to bring her to your house or hotel. Getting a hummer in the back of your Hummer is a sure fire way to end up giving some guy in a prison cell a hummer of his own (or worse yet... a tossed salad). At $200+ CDN for an hour (+- $135US) plus hotel etc... it just ain't that cheap. And as always you'll likely end up with a cold fish.
As this IS the American Women forum I'll have to add some useable content:
Had a conversation with my GF last weekend and the following came out of her mouth (unfortunately not what I wanted to see coming out of her mouth). She expressed that she can see no reason why one person giving head to another would enjoy giving it. I was shocked at this one... no wonder she refuses to honk on the old tube steak. Besides my initial wonder as to why she can't figure this one out (as a guy with a fixation), I was also pissed at the pure selfishness of the statement. I had always thought that the "yucky" factor at the end was more important to girls... now I hear that there's a whole mental aspect to it as well.
Oh man FU, that is a bad deal. Sorry to hear that. I love to eat pussy even more than I love to get blow jobs. Giving pleasure gives ME pleasure, and I'm a total dickhead and an innately selfish asshole, so I would assume that many other more compassionate humanoids enjoy giving pleasure as well.
But it's interesting because I know there are some guys who don't like to eat pussy. In particular I have had a lot of black guys tell me that over the years. I had one black guy tell me, "If you had a dick like a brother, you wouldn't NEED to eat pussy." I tried to explain to him that I LIKED to eat pussy and I just don't think he believed me. Same thing in Méjico; I am very popular down there because I go right down and a lot of gals tell me their boyfriends won't chow down.
Dunno FU, but I don't think the relationship has a future if she ain't gonna gobble the goober. I assume you've tried applying mass amounts of alcohol?
Yes... alcohol has been liberally applied. The problem with alcohol is that she gets so horned up that she just wants me to give her some pipe. One day when I tried to go down on her she asked me where I was going and why I wanted to do it.
This is frustrating for another reason: I'm not exactly Mr Longevity on my first pop. I've tried using condoms with desensitizer in them but they literally knock him out. So I'm stuck with maybe ten or fifteen minutes of not so fast humping before I'm drained... I'd really like to stay at the party later and a return trip is not usually in order.
And lets not forget about that one week per month when I get nothing at all.
I know there's girls out there who enjoy nobbling on the gob... but I sure can't seem to find them.
I agree with you on the eating concept. Every girl I've been with has been grateful and says I'm NOT in the majority... but they're still selfish and refuse to return the favor. I dream about having the spit or swallow dillema with my GF.
And yes... the relationship is over. I like her, and having a warm body to sleep next to, but I just can't compromise on sex... it's too ingrained in my nature (thanks Dad :) )
I'm with you, Dickhead. Figuring out what makes her squirm and pant is part of the thrill, let alone the pure sensory experience.
FedUp -- you might ask her if that applies to all such situations, such as giving someone else a backrub or massage, or just doing something nice for someone else. Can she understand how a man can get pleasure from sucking on her breasts? If she can't see how those things can give pleasure, then it's time to run away, fast, as this sounds like a relationship in which everything will need to be negotiated (sorry, I get no pleasure from doing the dishes so forget it -- and that's a gender neutral reference) and if she can see it then time to really have a frank talk about what really bothers her. It would also be interesting to hear her take on mutual oral, as there the pleasure equation's a bit more direct.
ok so on the longevity issue: i don't think desensitizing condoms are the way to go because that will exacerbate the situation when you don't use them. do you know about the "squeeze technique"? what this involves is you or a non-selfish and willing partner squeezing the bottom of the joy stick at some point not too much prior to the "point of no return." you do this a few times and then you will develop a sort of "vapor lock" where you will be hard but don't feel like busting a nut just then.
disclaimer: i've never had that issue and so have not tried this, but it's in the literature and i lived with a sex therapist for a while; she claims it works good and i am not aware of any particular dangers or side effects.
on the other hand, when you say a second round is usually not in order, i think you will find that once you find a woman who likes to suck, a second round will be in order. by this i mean two things: a) whenever i get blown to completion i immediately want to fuck til completion, and b) sometimes after round 1 the little son of a ***** is just lying there, but when suction is applied, he rises to the occasion.
i am 45 now and i can get it up just as good and just as often as i ever could, but sometimes i can't get it off, especially when condoms are involved. that often works to the woman's advantage but sometimes leads to her just getting the snot pounded out of her to no real avail. what i do find at this stage of the game is that if the woman is bitchy or disinterested or smells like a carp farm, the little son of a ***** just rolls over and dies, so this may be part of your issue regarding round two.
Oh and WTF is up with this no sex one week per month? Is that her or you? Dickhead will wade in the red river any time. It's nice and warm and adds moisture. The only real issue is that tampons dry things out. The solution? A good old fashioned diaphragm. That dams up the red river without drying up the creek bed. A lot of gals have told me over the years that they like sex during their period cuz orgasms help the cramps; I've even been told that just getting pounded is helpful even if they can't come that way.
If you use the Dickhead Diaphragm Dam, you may even find yourself in the mood for a light snack ...
Hi guys,
I've been lurking here for quit a while now, with mixed feelings as the sex situation in my country isn't as bad yet as it is in yours and most girls I bedded were or became great lovers. But as the US way of life is spreading all over the world, our girls get formatted just the way your remotely female lardballs are. So I'm more than worried there.
Dickhead : seek out a book by Jolan Chang, it's called The Tao of Love and Sex, I found that 15 years ago and it totally turned my sex life around. The compression technique you mentioned was mentioned in the Kinsey & Masters Report, but it's really beginners stuff, believe me. There's more to learn in that area, and that's when fun begins.
As for oral delights, have you ever tried getting in position for a sideway 69 ? Once you start your part, I found out that most can't help returning the favor.
RN : I read your posts on this forum with much pleasure. You truly are a lady.
Yes, read that book many years ago and recommend it highly to Fedup and others. What do you mean about "sideways" soixant-neuf vs. any other direction? Isn't sideways the most common way to do that?? Isn't that why it's "69" as in two spoons in a drawer?
I think you mean EITHER Alfred Kinsey OR (Virginia) Masters and (William) Johnson. I don't think Kinsey wrote with either Ms. Masters or Mr. Johnson.
The only thing that could possibly be better than 69 is 68.
CBGBConnisur
07-12-02, 23:10
FedUp, its only illegal if you pick up a streetwalker but there are tons of escort services and I have never paid more than 140 Canadian dollars for an hour in Montreal plus the strip and massage parlours also offer sex and the quality is quite good. French Canadian women are a hidden treasure. "Cold fish" you say??!! I would love to hear what your idea of "hot tamale" is. The Quebecois women are much different than women in the rest of Canada and the US, they're more laid back with regards to sex and they seem to enjoy it without little sense of guilt. Although they're not as sexually assertive as their European and South American counterparts. I would say Vancouver's scene is a little iffy but Montreal is the sex capital of North America.
Phillipe, yes and no about the US way of life abroad changing the sex lives of people. When you mean by the US way of life, do you mean the increase in capitalist and free enterprise activity abroad? To be fair, people around the world want that comfortable "US way of life", we're not shoving it in people's faces. People simply want it, to have economic prosperity and affluence, who in the world doesn't like money?? I spent the early 80's in West Germany and that country at the time was as 'American' as you can get, by that I mean it was highly capitalist and it still is to a degree, The Netherlands is quite businesslike as well, so is Scandinavia, but attitudes towards sex and romance are still much different than they are in America, for example Denmark is SUPER RICH, yet the women there still seem to be quite loose and friendly. Just my input.
CBGB, parlez-vous Francais? Je regrette, mais je ne parle pas. Would that affect my experience and the price I would pay if I did go to Montreal? I have an opportunity to get as far as Niagara Falls for free next month.
CBGBConnisur
07-13-02, 01:15
I hardly speak a word. The Quebecois women are not as Anglophobic as their counterparts in Paris, some women speak some English but it wasn't a problem for me I just wanted some rumpy pumpy. As for street hookers, the cops can't arrest you just for looking at them. FedUp is right, if a cop feels like being a dick he could write you up for soliciting a street hooker. The women on St. Catherine Street in Montreal are good quality women, they're not the crack *****s I bump into in New York. The women in looks average 6-7, with many solid 8's and quite a few 9-10's in the mix. But with the legal situation on street prostitution, its at your risk basically. If you want to be 100 percent safe just use the escort services, as long as she comes to your house or hotel room its OK. Personally I just use the escort services, strip clubs, and incall *****houses in Montreal, there are tons of ads in the Mirror paper. Dickhead, i got news for you, Quebec women know how to give blowjobs, often they do it without the rubber, they know how to suck dick like no one in our hemisphere. Note the word hemisphere. hee hee!!! Niagra Falls? Toronto has some stuff but I think its too overpriced. Its also a lot further away than Montreal from NY, almost a 3 hour difference.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.4 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.