View Full Version : Senior Membership Guidelines
Please select "Add New Report" to begin this section.
Jackson,
All of your reasoning seems sound for senior membership guidelines. To me, senior membership has always meant nothing more than being judged by you to be a trusted, contributing member of this forum. Hell, anyone can post to this forum as long as their original registration is accepted. Not being given senior status just means that your posts will not appear in real time. Big fat hairy deal! Life goes on. Anyone who wants to participate here needs to understand that it is a privilege, and that privilege can be taken away unilaterally by you. They need to understand that you have a life, and you can not spend all of your time dealing with their petty BS. If they don't like the rules, which are extremely fair and accomodating, then they can go try to find a better forum. Ain't gonna happen.
Thanks again for all the hard work that it takes to run this board and thanks for letting all members - senior and regular - have their voices be heard.
Wow, first one here.
O.k.: I spend most of WSG time in Brazil -- a fairly well-detailed section on this site. I've noticed a tendency over the last few years toward a heavy degradation of content (away from focus on sex). This may be an inevitability given that the scene down there is so well canvassed by the many excellent archived reports. People, in other words, want to talk about the place in some way -- so they fabricate discussions around the ancillary concerns of the commited sex-tourist (phone cards, hotels, transpo, etc.). Questions, in other words, that could be answered through the purchase of a travel guide.
So what is a senior member to do in this arena? Well, beyond the tight and detailed elucidation of a new scene, or an old scene done in a new way -- it has to be about education and advice. It has to be about improving the aforementioned scene by the elimnation of the Griswald-factor in new-or-early hobbyists. So in the end it comes down to preserving a good thing (for myself) by not spoiling the girls due to undereducated rookies. Dunno.
So the Senior-or-Regular Member question becomes a little blurry given the excess of information available in some of the sections on this site. If it's a question of, "What roles (generally) do each play?," senior members should be defined as those capable of providing wisdom for any given scene -- which of course comes from experience with that scene; and regular members should be defined as those less comfortable with the exact details and procedures.
So, then, in the end senior member have to be considered more valuable because they hold more info -- but much of that info's already been archived (and thus is only being repeated when it's delivered "anew").
It's funny -- I hobbied through about 30 countries before I even found this site. Hobbying was always sorta a no-brainer for me. It made sense and the rules were clear. I guess some people need a little more coaching.
Maybe this is the solution (and it in a predicts what might be the next forum discussion):
Synthesize excellent older reports into the beginning section of any given city/scene -- answering all of the classic questions for that scene -- and then let the day-to-day posting continue (as it has been). This will let the "regular" members hit the ground running and let senior members fine-tune the discussion around maximizing the dollar-to-ass ratio.
Jesus. Whatever. It all comes down to the point that most people are too lazy to read the archives (much less a tour-guide). Sorry I wrote so much and said so little.
Forgive me for this novel,
JWadd
Jackson,
Regarding Question 1:"What does Senior Member status mean to you? "
It means you've been here a while, though in the Washington State boards those that post regularly are known.
Regarding Question 2: "Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?"
I would prefer Moderated, Regular and Senior. There are a fair number of Regular members in the Seattle section that are posting good information that winds up being posted after some of the value has gone.
Regarding Question 3: "Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify? "
Yes it seems reasonable to have a standard to allow us to continue to have access to solid up-to-date information. Though I would really prefer not to have to change my login name (see below)
Regarding Question 4: "Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?"
I like the review, if you can keep up with it!
+My question for you:
Will my login "I Twenty-Five Hundred" meet the requirements for Senior membership? Maybe some of the logins could be grandfathered in? Or should I request to have it changed now?
Keep up the good work!
Thanks,
i25
Hi,
Thanks for bringing this issue up, I was just telling myself I should find and read the instructions one day, to find out how to get senior membership. :-)
My comments :
Number of posts : I always return to the same places for ages, so I no longer post descriptions of my own experiences or reviews of a place. Places I go to have been already reviewed times and times again and, for my own experiences, I would just be repeating myself. On the other hand, I can reply (more) quickly to questions as I know my places inside out. Most of the time very briefly (just giving a link, name of a place or a girl, short description, etc...), no detailed reports. No sure this fits in your planned policy, but I think my contributions can be more relevant than a ten paragraphs long report buried many months back.
Review procedures: Request for upgrade must be seconded by a current Senior member. Most of the time, I reply to questions from newbies who, by definition, are regular members, not senior ones. Not sure many seniors will bother going to the Upgrade Request forum, then to find and read posts they are not interested in and give support. You can then end up having posts ending like this "if you appreciate my contribution, pleeeaaase go to the Upgrade Request forum and support my nomination" ;-). Most of other forums go the other way round. If a senior member finds spams or irrelevant posts from another senior, he reports it to the moderator/administrator, who can then decide to delete the post and/or downgrade that member.
Just my 2 cents
Loves Petites
07-31-03, 09:32
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
For me, Senior Member status only means that I have passed some meaningful measure of trust, so that WSGF can safely assume that I am not a spammer and I can post without delay (important to me). The delay slows down communication. The delay also makes it a little more complicated to stay on top of all new posts, including the delayed ones.
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
Only to the extent:
a) to protect WSGF from spammers and other nuisances
b) to minimize inconvenience to members.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
I have not minded my "waiting period" too much, as I understood that it helped keep the forum uncluttered, pleasant, and effective. I would not have minded if this 30-day period were longer for that reason. This is assuming that posts would be placed in the forum within 48 hours of posting.
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
a) I just hope that upgrades would occur at a reasonable pace.
b) It might be reasonable to give some time delay after a decision and before deleting. Some members might not be able to read WSGF often enough to catch the decision (and any posted Forum Administrator reasons) made on their requested upgrade. I wonder if the Forum engine allows for an upgrade request post (and perhaps and all related posts) to be moved to a different Topic, say "Decisions to Upgrade" or "Decisions to NOT Upgrade". Perhaps then, any posts older than say two weeks would be deleted within these "Decided" Topics. Also, new posts may or may not be allowed in these "Decided" Topics.
Jackson,
Thanks as always for your work on all this, which shows the careful hand inherent in all you've done. On to the questions...
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
Simply that my postings show up when I make them, and are thus connected to the flow of discussions. The single most annoying factor about regular member postings is that they sometimes appear in a thread after I've read several messages further along, and I can miss them.
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
I understand the need to keep serial spammers off the board, something especially problematic in a non-threaded open-registration system, and so clearly some kind of filtering function seems necessary. The regular/senior approach, or something like that, is similar to what other systems seem to use with success, and seems a reasonable solution.
That said, the differences in designation as you've laid them out seem to do more than simply act as a deterrent to serial spammers, since you make the distinction between those who give and those who primarily ask for information. In truth, you've also moved people up and down in status in at times rather mysterious ways (I mostly understand your position on Samus/Z, but never got the whole thing with Skinless being moved down and then back up, for example. And, no, this is not a complaint or request for more insight on that -- I said my piece at the time) and this has ended up being perceived as a status and/or puunishment issue, which I suspect, is part of what leads to the vanity plate issue. Having a clear process will help de-mystify things, if nothing else.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
As I see it, the core of what you're asking for to gain senior membership designation is sharing information, which is the bottom-line purpose of this board, so the real issue is the specifics.
The five and ten report minimums seem ok in general, though I can see people who aren't in major US metropolitan areas struggling some to get to that level. Perhaps a detailed report option for the US might also make sense, though I recognize that there are LE issues that come into play.
I do think that people who ask questions, presuming they're ones that show some degree of care and aren't simply the same ones regurgitated over and over, can make solid contributions to the board. I'm also curious as to how you would see someone like RN, who clearly has been a valuable contributor to the board, fitting into the Senior Member criteria.
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome?
It does feel a bit cumbersome, though not terribly so. I don't see Senior Members not being willing to make comments about member contributions, though one worry I'd have is the system being flooded with a bunch of messages saying, "hey, guys, please go into the Senior Member Upgrade section and support my upgrade." That will be every bit as annoying as some of the other repetitious posts. I'm less clear on the duration of this process, in terms of how long the comment period might be, and how you intend to handle situations where, say, ten senior members say, yup, this is a regular member who should be upgraded, and two say, this guy doesn't deserve it.
5. What would you modify?
Honestly, my main worry is that by making things more formalized the end result might be more and not less work for you, as you may well end up with a larger number of regular members, and thereby more postings you must read and approve. Though you do a truly admirable job at that, I'd personally rather have you freed up to focus on site improvements.
I also find the yearly review process less than clear, and running rather cunter to the whole openness of the upgrade review procedure.
6. How do other forums handle this situation?
Many other forums make use of moderators as a way of reducing the wear and tear on the system operator by sharing the workload. In some systems they are the ones who move people up and down. I would suggest you consider that as an option for, at the very least, reviewing posts by Regular Members as it has several potential benefits -- first, it encourages a cadre of senior members to stay involved, it would cut down on your workload, and, next, it could result in faster appearance of those postings and thereby a better flow. The board is far enough along that you can no doubt identify at least a few people whose judgement on approving postings you could trust -- that's obviously a different level of good sense that's needed as opposed to having moderators who actually prune discussions or ban or upgrade members.
I may have other thoughts later as I consider this more, but that's my initial take on things.
SeniorCitizen
07-31-03, 13:19
I certailly did not appreciate the difficulty in drawing the distinction between regular and senior. One alternative would be to consider "probationary" and "regular" members. Otherwise I have no problem with the proposed sriteria other than I'd eliminate the "I'm going to be in city X on date Y, can anyone tell me where the action is?". It seems that posting ten of these messages for the USA would qualify. It doesn't seem that it would be that hard to use a screen that a posting be either fact sharing or opinion sharing, and if that were the screen it might even be possible, over time, to lower the threshold for qualification.
Firstly, Jackson - great work, and thanks for maintaining a valuable resource.
As I see it, there are only 2 priorities to this membership status:
1) To keep crap and spammers off the site
2) To help eliminate or reduce your work load.
The third factor, of members getting a bloated ego from 'senoir' status is crap. Don't give it another thought. Earn the status, or get lost. It's not a measure of virility or manliness, just a measure of usefulness and credibility in this forum. We're not counting our episodes with women like schoolboys here - we've gone a step or two beyond caring about that.
How can this process be helped?
Well, if you haven't got a relatively simple software solution to categorising members, then forget it - it's too much of your time wasted still. e can't expect you to read every post in every forum. That's simply nuts!
I'm ignorant of how your database works, but it seems to me that you could probably enlist the help of senior members here.
If your system allowed senior members to give a 'yes' or 'no' response to posts, then the junior members could be automatically scored for you. Amass too many NO posts from seniors, and get banned (both senior or junior members can be banned). Amass enough YES posts and get elevated to senior (and get voting rights).
Get a mixture of YES and NO responses, and remain in a tentative 'junior' status.
From a users point of view, all this would take is two columns for tick boxes beside each post(one for YES, one for NO), and we (seniors) tick one or another to judge the poster and submit the result to the database. Even if only 10% of seniors bother to score posts, it'll still quickly weed out the spammers and the dreamers.
Another precaution though, if a spammer were to sneak into 'senior' status, and then elevated other bugus members to senior, the database could look at who voted spammers into 'senior' status, and ban them as well, or drop them into junior status to prevent them elevating any more bogus members to a position of control. They'll stand out like crazy - as the few lone supporters of posts with a huge number of 'NO' votes against them. Simply cancel any members that have given a number of positive responses to members that the majority of other users vote NO to, and ban or reduce the status of those they supported.
This way we can eliminate all the crap without your continuous input.
Great work man. I hope you still get to enjoy the subject at the heart of this project, rather than toiling over the project itself!
Would it be possible to allow other senior members recommend a regular member to promotion? Ie, some type of automatic voting system to help alleviate the work load for you?
Bawlerz.
Sinverg Wenza
07-31-03, 14:24
Dear Mr. Jackson
You are doing a great job of protecting the forum from spammers. I've been a lurker for a while before being a member and this is something to appreciate.
You have achieved an extraordinarily high signal to noise ratio, but IMHO, you are doing so at the cost of taking up a lot of work that you could avoid. Take this from someone who doesn't really know the actual work that it's taking to run this, or wether due to your personal circumstances you actually have the time, but I think editing the posts for capitalization and punctuation is a bit going too far, however exasperating, I for one, find poorly written posts.
Also, you can't check the truth in every post, and will never know wether that hut in Tanzania really offers the best bargains in the area. However if the post has a lot of '4 u' or 'u r ok', it may be a signal to the interested reader that the post is a fake. Editing it may lead to believe it rather than to doubt it, and this is a potential situation in which you may be doing a disservice to the readers, and it's taking you time! (which you could dedicate to the hobby rather than to read about it).
Similarly, It may take you a lot of time verifying the Senior member upgrade criteria. Has this guy written 10 reports on the US or only 8? Does he have a several paragraph international post?
IMO, Senior membership should be automatic. Spammers fabricate posts? Let's raise the number of moderated posts to 10 or 15. There must be a threshold in which the number of spam messages is minimized. You could have some other criteria that you do not make public, like number of paragraphs or characters posted. I assume that you can moderate posts quite fast, and can tell in one glance if the post is legitimate or not, while checking for Senior criteria may take you much longer.
I have otherwise no objection if you want to go on running the site the hard way. I just find this forum so good I don't want you to grow tired of it. The criteria for senior membership seems to me just fine as is the rest of the forum's policy.
Regards
Sinverg
Jackson, I will attempt to answer the questions you posted in the order that you posted them.
1. Senior Member Status, to me, means that you have contributed original material to this forum and that the information at least appears to be accurate. In other words, when a senior member speaks, you are reasonably sure that the post is accurate. I know that you cannot tell for sure, but, to me, if a senior member posts something, it is usually true, or at least perceived that way. I think that senior members also deserve some respect shown from the regular members. I am not saying that a newbies opinions or posts are not as valuable as a senior members, but I don't think a regular member should be allowed to disrespect a senior member right out of the gate, so to speak. But, that should be in-line with the no demeaning or denigrating other members policy.
I also feel that senior members have an obligation to help police this forum. If a regular member is just posting rehashed information or if all they are doing is asking questions that have recently been answered, then it is a senior members responsibility to point that out. Now, it should not be done in a way to demean or denigrate that regular member, only to point out what is expected in a post. If I see someone posting questions or posting old info, then I usually call them on it. I try to do it in a nice way, but, unfortunately, it is not always taken that way, and a little flaming may occur. I wouldn't want to lose my senior member status on one of these occasions. So, I wouldn't mind a little protection built into the senior member status that we would at least receive a warning prior to losing that status, if possible.
2. I think we do need Senior/Regular member status. It stops, or at least slows down the serial spammers. It shows who has been here for a while and the value of their contributions to this forum. And, it also strokes the egos of us old farts who have been posting for a while. lol.
3. The criteria seems quite reasonable. I like the part of being a regular member for at least 30 days. And, I like the fact that at least 10 posts are required in the USA board. But, it is the quality of those posts that concerns me. I just don't want people thinking that all they have to do is post 10 times in a month and they are in. So, I think that it is necessary to have senior members second their requests for upgrade. Which brings us to question 4.
4. I think that the review procedure will help take a burden off of you. But, I don't want to have to search the upgrade request lists just to put my two cents in. (I probably will anyway, but if I am limited on time, I'm only going to be checking my local boards.) I would like to see the regular member request the upgrade on the board provided, then come back to his regular sections and request that senior members visit the upgrade board to register their vote on the upgrade. I think that would work nicely, and not be too cumbersome. I also agree that once the decision is made, that the info should be erased from the board, we don't need it once the decision has been made.
I would also provide a new board for other senior members to review themselves. What I mean is that there should be a board for senior members to report other senior members who are abusing their status. Just because you are a senior member doesn't mean that you have a right to that status forever. You have to maintain that level. If a senior member is doing nothing but trying to incite flame wars all over the place, then this board would be an excellent place for other senior members to vent their frustration with problem posters. It would also be an excellent forum for you to post the offending party's infractions and get other senior members to vote on if they get to keep their senior member status or not. But, that is probably another issue for later debate. I just don't want people to just work to obtain their senior member status only to abuse their priviledge of unrestricted posting in real time. You could also make it more stringent to lose senior status as well. For example, it could take a total of 6 senior members to vote for someone else to lose that senior status. That way, hurt feelings won't enter into the equation, 6 different people will need to have the same strong opinion to remove someone's status.
5. I don't visit any other forums so I can't answer this question.
Please keep up the excellent work that you do for all of us here. I love this site and visit it everyday. I try to participate as much as possible and encourage others to do so as well. I think these proposed changes will make it more enjoyable for all of us. Thank you Jackson.
Best Regards,
Box
VagaBond II
07-31-03, 16:05
Thank you for clarifying the review process.
I do think it will help to have clear guidelines. I have been wondering since I started here - have I met the guidelines yet? or is anyone really checking? Now I know what the guidelines are, can determine for myself if I've met them, and can initiate the process to become a Senior Member rather wait to be noticed.
I do have one area of concern.
Is it really necessary to recieve a support message. This requires that senior members monitor the 'Senior Membership Upgrade' forum - which, frankly, doesn't seem like it would be of much interest to those who already have Senior Membership.
Certainly, Senior Members should feel free to add comments to anyone's request. A comment could be in support of or in opposition to granting Senior Membership. But I think the board moderator should be capable of reviewing the a person's posts after he has requested membership. Reviewing the posts should be adequate to determine if he meets the criteria.
To require a supportive statement from a Senior Member may result in Regular Members asking their forum for support. I'd hate to see the forums become riddled with requests for support by Regular Members.
I know that I am not a major poster and I definatly get more out of this forum tan I could every repay so thanks to you and who ever else would read this post. For me the system as stand is ok I it was to be improved I think I like a longer waiting period or a more strict interpatation of what is a good report. not just to stop spammers but somtime I use the senior label along with the number of posts that the user has to determine how accurate the post is. I have read warnings about people posting as "pimps" and this s ofcourse good information on location but I may be a little harsher judge of talet than he is on "his girls". ofcourse this makes more work for you and so I dont say it is nessasary I think you have by far the bestsite I have found and I an proud to be a senior member or a regular member as you see fit.
Jackson, your requirements and the ability to upgrade to senior member status are reasonable and fair. As a long-time participant, I well remember the problems caused by spammers and hackers. This forum is an invaluable resource and does need some level of protection to keep the information current and useful to all members. The requirement to have posts screened is a minor inconvenience compared with the lost of functionality. The requirements are easily met and will hopefully reduce the amount of maintenance time that you must expend while allowing the members who really utilize the forum as an information exchange the opportunity to upgrade. I personally would like to thank you for the timeand effort that you devote to keeping this forum the best information exchange on the web.
Thank you Jackson.
Jackson,
I think keeping the Senior Member level is a good thing and it weeds out problems on the board. But I do think that a few more changes are needed to improve the system. First 30 days is not really long enough in time. If you want to stop spamers 30 days will not do it. I believe 60 to 90 days of membership is the minium time frame you should be looking at. Also, the number of posts is two low to really be able to pass judgement on a member. I would recommend that you double the minium number of posts across the board. After earning this level one post a year just is to low to maintain the membership level. If you are only making one post per year having that post delayed for even 48 hours doesn’t hurt anyone. The people that help you and the site the most are those that post often. I would think at least 12 posts per year is more in order.
The last point I would ask you to consider is posters who have a commercial interest in the sex trade or the things we are posting about. I’m not talking about you, the links you have added, or your sponsor Erotica.comI’m talking about other people or interests who work in the trade and are trying to profit from the great membership base that you have. I don’t believe these commercial people belong on the site. For example brothels are legal in the state of Nevada. TJ has many great clubs offering wonderful service but having owners of these places posting doesn’t help the membership. Their goal is to promote their own business. The memberships’ goals are to give really honest information about the best places and values around the world. If you do let them post, they should never be given senior member level because every post must be reviewed to make sure it is in the best interest of the site and not their best interest.
Love the site and think you’re doing a great job. Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts.
Sexreview
Jackson,
The only way to get members to post quality reports with photos and such is to require pay membership. I belong to four boards, CH, TSM, WSA and XTN. All of these are pay sites, and the reports are of good quality, and all have their special areas of expertise.
In a Sao Paulo thread the other day you asked why members did not post more on your site, as they posted on other sites? The truth is that WSG is too open, and anybody can view it, even the chicas. Yes anybody can pay $50-70 for a membership too, but few will do it if they are not truly dedicated to this hobby.
You run a great board, but I for one would post a lot more on here if it were protected by a pay subscription and User Id and Password setup. I've got a nice report on BA posted on three other boards and it is kept up to date as well. It is designed to help the newbie on his first few visits, but I will not post it here unless it is protected by a sywstem such as described above. There are too many photos it it to put on a public site.
Argentina Private is a good start, but it is still open to the public, and is designed for vetern mongers to discuss things. To make WSG truly an informative board, establish a pay system, and protect it with user id and password.
Enjoy the life, :)
Moondog
Redneck3565
07-31-03, 19:11
I am a little confused on the criteria for "geographic areas" of posts for new members to become senior members. As it is laid out now, do these prospects have to have national AND International posts??? (What about those of us who have never left our state, much less the USA?). I think the rules for the QUANTITY and QUALITY of posts is good (will keep out the riff-raff, and maybe some LE too! ;) Please clarify this, as I would hate to see anyone not "upgraded", if they have good posts, but they are not sufficient in "geographic diversity".
Jackson,
I think the senior level of memberships is important and should stay on the site. But I believe that if you want to keep out spammers that 30 days of membership is not long enough. I think something more along the lines of 60 to 90 days of membership minium before requesting senior level would be in the best interest of the site. That way other members and the site staff would have a better chance to review the members posts and have a better feel for the member.
Along these same lines I believe the number of posts required before requesting senior level should be double what you recommended. It still is a very low number of posts or reports. If a person is not posting many posts then senior membership really is not needed.
After one became a senior member, you stated one report a year to maintain the level. I would suggest that one report is very low, by report you do mean a detailed travel type report right? I would say two reports and/or 12 posts on the board. This would help top get more people posting and make the site better in the long run.
About commercial posters (Jackson not you or your people) I don’t think they belong posting in the discussion area of the site. I don’t have a problem with your policy of letting them post one ad per year, as long as it is an ad and not written to look like a post. The posters on this site are or should be all users of services, and mixing in sellers of these services doesn’t work. The goal of the sellers is to bring themselves more customers, at and cost. The goal of the users is to find the best service, places, and prices. Users and providers mix like oil and water and it is a very bad idea. That said if you decide to allow them to stay they never should be made senior members. Every post that is made by providers should be reviewed to make sure it is in the best interest of the site before posting to the board.
Jackson you run a great site and you asked for comments about the policy. Please don’t misunderstand this post, in the end it is and always has been your site so your rules are law for WSG. I always have enjoyed the site and will support whatever you decide in the end. Thank you for a great site and for listening.
Sexreview
Buster Highman
07-31-03, 20:12
Jackson: I tried posting this in the appropriate forum (http://www.wsgforum.com/vforum/showthread.php?threadid=1503), but it doesn't seem to being accepting posts.
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
To me, it's the ability to post and receive feedback in a timely manner. I can't exactly tell my work buddies about my activities, so this provides a way to "tell my secret" in a non-threatening environment. It's always nice to have fellow members respond with "nice report" or "man, you got ripped off." Having posts be delayed by 1-2 days makes having a discussion rather awkward.
Also, for those of us who are traveling, having posts appear quickly can be very important, particular if you are arranging a meet with fellow forum members. As in, "Hey, I'm gonna be at ____ tomorrow, join me for some mongering!"
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
Well, you have already articulated why you set it up in the first place. Based on your experience with serial spammers, some sort of filtering/screening of posts seems justified and, perhaps, necessary. Whether you identify them as "Regular Member/Senior Member" or "Newbie/Correspondent" or something else is really up to you. Personally, I'm not concerned about the nomenclature.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
The criteria all seem reasonable. I do not think they are overly restrictive. If anything, they might be too lax, as I can imagine a spammer trying one of the easier routes to senior status, e.g., “One detailed international travel report…”, by copying something from another board and then demanding promotion status.
Of course, it all depends on the rationale for having differences in status. If you just want to weed out the spammers and their ilk, then you would just need a series of minor contributions to assume positive intent.
On the other hand, if you wanted to identify members who had made significant contributions to the forum, you could be more restrictive in your criteria. There are definitely variations between senior members. Someone like a Carlos Perez (from the Monterrey board) deserves special recognition as a particularly knowledgeable member and as someone who is willing to assist travelers to his area.
An alternative to accomplish both ends, you might wish to add another layer of “vanity” status to those who you think have made particular contributions. This appeases those who want more restrictive criteria, and enables valid members to gain unmoderated status more quickly. Thus you could have trial member status (moderated) full member status (unmoderated) super member status (unmoderated and someone who would make a good moderator)4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
I think it has drawbacks. I think you’re going to be inundated with senior member status requests. Senior members are unlikely to actually read this forum populated by regular members begging for status and thus the country forums start getting filled with pleas by regular members asking for senior member nominations in the senior member board. I think this is the last thing we want to see.
Personally, I think your best bet is the moderator method. You can request volunteers, and from that pool, pick or have other senior members nominate. You can have a couple of moderators. A moderator would only have authority over his particular forum. To ensure some level of control, you could create another tier of users that are immune from moderator behavior (a senior senior member) or just have an outlet forum for “complaints against moderator abuse.”
I know Moondog suggested going to a pay version (http://www.wsgforum.com/vforum/showthread.php?postid=108461#post108461), but I hope you don’t do that. There are a LOT of lurkers out there. I was one myself. This also ensures a broad membership. As to why Moondog thinks he should NOT post a great report precisely because anyone can read it is beyond me. This does not seem reasonable to me. Great reports should be read by all.
5. How do other forums handle this situation?
Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/) uses a karma system where a subset of other users are able to “moderate” posts up or down based on their content. +1 for humor, -1 for off-topic, +2 for insightful, -2 for flame-bait, etc. users build up karma, which is (was) a sort of status symbol in the community. (Over time, there has developed a sort of karma backlash, where members post just to gain karma points.) Another feature then is the ability for readers to set filters that screen out posts below a certain threshold. This ensures I only see the posts that score above a certain number, +2 for instance.
Yahoo movies (http://movies.yahoo.com/) has recently incorporated a “Was this review helpful?” link on each reader review post. Thus you can identify the reviews that were particularly useful for others, and thus might have some value for you. The default sort is “by helpfulness” so you see the most helpful reviews first. Of course, this means that the first reviews generally get tagged first and then continue to get read and tagged, staying out on top, even over other good reviews.
MrFixitOnline (http://www.mrfixitonline.com/) uses a system whereby moderators are identified for each specific forum, giving them the authority to edit/delete posts as they see fit. These are usually very senior members who have contributed in the past, or even new members who have demonstrated a particular passion about a specific topic. Moderator status is strictly policed by a set of senior advisors who have no actual moderator authority, but who keep on eye out for abusive behavior by all parties, and report to those in charge (i.e., MrFixit).
Even though the members are a small part of what makes this work, at the end of the day, this is your baby. You should do what you think is best.
Oddly enough, the notice that accompanies posts by a "regular" member sets forth my entire concern with the dual membership approach. By its very nature, our "hobby" is somewhat fast moving. My very first post was prompted by the appearance of new, highly inconspicuous, LE vehicles in my area. I sought to help my fellow hobbyists avoid trouble. Unfortunately, there was a two day time lag between my report and the posting of the information. I understand the need to avoid spammers. However, given the choice between wading through spam and getting a fresh post from a "regular" member that there is a john sting taking place at a particular intersection, I'll take the spam.
Just my two cents.
Easy's two cents.
I agree with Buster on nearly all his points. I am definately against a pay site as that seems to take the sense of "community" out of the process and that is one of the things I dig about the WSG.
Since I am on a slow board, (Richmond VA), mostly we do not get smacked with newbie requests/spammers often. Therefore I would suggest your, (Jackson), possibly utilizing a service you have suggested in the past. Private message service for senior members. Not only does this "up" the prestige for senior members, but you could also contact "proven" senior members and ask for their input privately as to whether or not a regular member should be elevated.
After all, who would know better than a respected member of a particular board wether or not a regular member should be elevater or not.
Private messaging would also allow members such as Moon Dog let other senior members know info that would be valuable to them, without fear that the ladies or the "undeserving", (whatever that means to the individual), would be able to read it.
This would also let the senior memers of particular boards keep the "flavor" of their board without fear of watering down. On some boards mongers speak of "dreams", on others the posters are more forward.
But in the final analysis, this is YOUR board. All the clever ideas in the world will not profit us mongers if they only end up annoying you.
Hey , Jackson take it....
Easy as 1-2-3
On The Road
07-31-03, 21:12
Well I try to answer your questions:
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
Being a Senior Member is a way to prove to be able to provide helpful informations.
Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
Yes, in my humble opinion. It help readers in knowing who is surely reliable and who isn't.
Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
Criteria are mostly reasonable, I think.
Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
I do not agree on the sentence: "the Regular Member's upgrade request must be seconded by one or more current Senior members, who shall post a message in the same thread beginning with a sentence to the effect "I second [username]'s Senior Member upgrade.".
I think should be enough if a Regular member posts his upgrade request, match all the criteria, and no Senior member object about it in, let's say, a week. Just in case of one or more complains, the discussion should start.
How do other forums handle this situation?
Well, I don't know. I don't read an other mongering forums, sorry.
I just read the WSG since the old Atta site was on www.paranoia.com, almost ten years ago...
Well, and I am definitely against a pay site. We'll lose most of the very usefull information you should find here, and we'll lose most of the people that read regurarly the forum.
Dollar Bill
07-31-03, 21:30
Mr. Jackson,
I would like to RESPECTFULLY request being bumped up to the Senior Member Level. Even though I do not have 100's of posts to my name thus far, I will be traveling to Colombia next week (for a 18 day trip) and know that I will be able to post good hard data on the Colombian boards. (WSG-DATA COLLECTION is half of my reason (or MISSION) for going to Colombia - the other is because my company needs me to go and is paying the airfare and most of the hotel).
I WILL discontinue posting any of the "stories" about my conquests (because sometimes that gets old and really does not provide info that WSG posters (& readers) can use), but WILL contribute information that can be utilized. Such as new places and/or info on existing places that might have changed (pricing / selection / hours or operation etc).
I WILL continue to do as much research as possible for the boards and post the hard data when collected.
Also, being a senior member WILL make me feel PROUD! Like I am not sitting on the bench anymore just watching the game, but like I am a real player (albiet small) in this MONGERING game of ours!
Thank you very much for your consideration and I really HOPE you approve my request.
Your BIGGEST fan,
Dollar Bill$
ps - Rest assured that I am not now, nor ever will be a SPAMMER. No matter what level a SPAMMER is, they should never be permitted to post on a GREAT board such as The World Sex Guide.
Jackson; Good plan. In response to your questions, my two cents are as folows;
1) Senior membership means that I can respond to other members in real time, instead of two days. I can also edit my posts, which come in handy if I make a mistake.
2) I am naive, but I don't know what a serial spammer is. I don't therefore know if you need the senior member designation. However, your explanation is reasonable.
3+4) The criteria is fair and reasonable. The review procedure seems fine. Besides; your world, your rules.
5) Other forums charge for the info you give out for free. Other than that, the forums are targeted towards different members. There is no real comparison.
Good luck with the project.
Nat
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
Just that my posts appear as soon as they are made. That means an ease of flow and discussion. To me, it doesn't mean all that much in terms of accuracy per se, as it's pretty impossible to police content and I tend to trust the community as a whole to highlight inaccuracies, which people seem pretty good at doing. Still, I'm generally going to trust something posted by a Senior Member with a decent number of posts more than I am something from a newbie with only a post or two.
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
I understand the need to screen things to reduce serial spammers, especially on an open registration system such as this this that uses unthreaded forum software. The Regular/Senior split seems as good a way as any to handle it, and it's not dissimilar to how others do things.
The one thing that does annoy about the Regular Member posts is that I at times miss them entirely until someone replies to them, as in certain areas there can be a number of posts and the discussion may have moved on by the time the Regular Member post makes it into the mix.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
The bar seems higher on USA contributions, which I guess is understandable given that's where lots of contributors live. But it basically means that one trip to Pattaya or Amsterdam, where prostitution is less legally problematic, means more than a long time in a quasi-normal US area (presuming there is such a thing!) I guess I worry somewhat that this might manifest itself in more explicit "outings" of US providers as part of efforts to be approved, and thereby negatively impact on those providers.
I'm a bit unclear on how the contributions should be judged. For example, does this mean ten (or five) useful contributions on separate establishments, or just X number of useful contributions in general? The latter seems like a lower bar, but also one that's more realistic for people who live outside of major metropolitan areas where there may be a more limited variety of action or for those who travel internationally on a more limited basis. On the other hand, this policy may stimulate more lengthy and in-depth postings, which to my voluble tongue is a good thing. (BTW, I'm presuming you don't actually want "information that obviously belies the member's personal experience" since that would be asking for lies, and there are probably enough of them already. :D)
I'm also unclear how someone like RN, who has clearly made useful contributions to this forum, would fit into these criteria. Perhaps some kind of other category or criteria to take such members into account would be useful.
Finally, I'd just like to champion some degree of the positives in people asking questions, if they're the right kind. Obviously the "where the ?>@# are the wimmin' " kind of questions and seeing the same ones over and over are annoying, but cogent questioning of knowledgeable members can also result in substantial contributions to the forum by making clear what additional facts are needed or useful. People who act as positive catalysts for information should also have a place in the Senior scheme of things -- this might relate to my comment on RN-type members.
I'd modify things in general by simply explicitly keeping with you the option of making a judgement call and upgrading someone to Senior status at any point you see fit. This would help streamline things by making it possible for members to just demonstrate their worth, be seen as such, and just avoid dealing with the whole review process in such cases. If you were to use moderators, I might extend that ability to them as well.
To my mind, the whole issue here is having a process someone can use to shine light upon themselves when they feel overlooked and deserving of Senior status as opposed to a referendum on whether you unjustly upgraded people to Seniors. Why not keep the good and working part of the process, or at least the option of doing so, which would streamline things and save lots of hassle?
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
By and large the review procedure seems ok, though there are several things I find unclear and a couple of things that raise flags. I think Senior Members would be willing to contribute toward helping out, though given that as I post this there are 18 requests already in the upgrade request area less than 24 hours after you've created it, I worry about the workability of this in terms of pure volume, at least at the beginning of things. I also find it unclear how this is all going to be sorted out in terms of discussion once there are fifty or sixty requests pending at once. (Again, a threaded discussion would make this easier, as one could directly comment/track individual requests.) Perhaps adding in a direct voting or polling process as seen in Yahoo groups and elsewhere might be simpler.
It's unclear what kind of time-frame you're envisioning for the process, as well as how things would actually shake out. If eight Senior members support an applicant and two say, "this guy's a bozo" then how will that end up? (If the process is to be transparent, it should be as much so as possible.) How often can someone appeal for senior status?
One of my concerns, as someone mentioned earlier, is that forums will probably end up seeing posts from various regular members lobbying senior members for support of their applications or saying "upgrade me please!" (Heck, there are some in this thread already.) People tend to post where they post, whether or not it's always the absolute right place. And since that's all about board membership/administration and not about the designated subject matter of this forum, I'd probably tend to find that more annoying than seeing the same questions over and over again.
I'm also concerned about what this all means in terms of workload for you -- if it's more formal/difficult to get Senior status, that means more posts for you to approve/reject. Personally, though you clearly do a brilliant job in this regard, I'd rather you had the extra time to spend on site improvements/getting laid yourself. Perhaps this is a situation where you could enlist some Senior Members as moderators who could review and approve clearly on-topic posts, which would not only reduce your workload but have the dual advantages of reinforcing a sense of "ownership" or board stewardship for said members, and also could mean faster approval of Regular Member posts, which would contribute to the overall flow of things.
5. How do other forums handle this situation?
Some use members as moderators of particular interest areas, and some of these also use those members to help determine membership status. On some boards those members also act to screen/approve posts. To do so requires identifying members with the right mix of qualities, but I'd imagine, now that this system has been running a registration system for a fair amount of time, that you'd probably be able to do that in a fair number of areas if you were so inclined. Even if you only managed to do this in a few areas, it would still serve to reduce your workload, I'd imagine. If you were able to identify/set up multiple moderators for an area that could streamline things considerably. Depending on what you want, on some systems moderators also can tend to act as either guides or catalysts for stimulating postings, though I've also seen systems where the presence of moderators is so overwhelming as to choke the life out of things. The right balance is essential, and that comes from clear identification both of the people involved and the parameters of their activities/powers. The bottom line on that issue, as well as the membership categories as a whole, is to try to improve the signal to noise ration as much as possible.
Again, thanks for all the work and good thought you've put into this process and the forum as a whole.
To me, Senior membership means my posts get posted right away. More importantly it means posts I'm reading from Senior members are available to read right away. I was a member before it was begun and when I noticed the designation I assumed it was related to the increasing number of bogus postings..or suspicious at least.
Do we need the designations? I think it's a good idea, as the forum is currently very good information and it sounds like Jackson has been doing a herculean job of screening the crap out.
I was not aware that the "regulars" posts which are delayed then appear in the correct "posted time" chronological order. That might explain me sometimes thinking "where did that come from...I don't remember reading that before".
The review process?
it could be a bottleneck based on the anticipated volume. Did I read that posts in the regular forums would have links back to the upgrade requests? If not....I can't see a lot of Senior members running to the "upgrade request" forum to approve the requests. If the requests were linked to the forums they post to....it would be not as bac. just my 2 cents.
and ....Jackson does a heck of a job with this site. My Hat is off to him.
keeping it right to the point...
1. what does senior status mean? timely posts/responses
2. ...need senior/regular status...? yes, for all the reasons you listed
3. ...criteria reasonable..., ...modify...? this is my only concern. by having a specific number of posts as one criteria i'm afraid we will see the generation of false reports by someone just to be eligible for upgrade. it's almost impossible to verify every report, even by other members who reside in the same city. also, members who reside in smaller towns will have a harder time qualifying even though their posts can be very important to all of us! how would i suggest you modify the criterion? don't specify a certain number of posts. although a regular member's activity is very important, qualification for upgrade should be judged also on the quality of the posts. i know this is getting closer to the subjective criteria you are trying to avoid, but given the other guidelines (the peer review process) for promotion from regular to senior, it should not be a burden.
4. ...review reasonable...? yes, but let regular members also suggest promotion to senior status - peer promotion.
5. how other forums manage this? moderators. i like joe_zop's comments on this - a monitor with the right mix is essential. a "gung-ho" or egotistical moderator can ruin a forum.
thanks for a good forum - and thanks for giving us input into it's continuing development.
Q: What does "Senior Member" status mean to you?
The word "Senior Member" means nothing to me but the fact that I can post my messages immediately is what is important.
Q: Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
Why don't you call these two types of memberships "Provisional Member" and "Permanent Member" or something along those lines.
Q: Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
I think the guidelines you set are more than fair. The only thing I would suggest is to require members to post at least 3 quality reports per year, not one.
Q: Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
Reviewing is a good idea but it sounds like you have just created a whole lot more work for yourself. You might want to consider giving moderator status to a few selected members.
Q: How do other forums handle this situation?
Most other boards I'm on do the moderation (deletions) of inappropriate posts after the post was made.
In conclusion I think you're on the right track. I hope you can soon elevate several members that I know, who are Regular Members, to Senior Members in the near future. I won't mention their handles here because it would not be appropriate. Jackson, I hope you don't have a day job that pays the bills. I don't know where you find the energy to keep up with this board. Thanks for making it available to us!
...(prog)
Big Johnson
08-01-03, 13:18
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you? My posts get posted right away. It normally means that I can respond to requests faster.
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations? I think there is some advantages to that title in that you might be able to better trust a Senior Member as a non-casual user. For me, I post info more than I request info. But, if I am headed to a new location, I look at past postings for some guidance.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive?, What would you modify? I think the criterea is fine.
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? I think asking for a second is more function of built relationships rather than true value of your reporting skills. If you monger alone or don't develop relationships through offline emails, I think some qualified canidates might get lost. I guess it depends if someone is actually monitoring the request board for people they want to second for nomination.
5. What would you modify? I like your site. The fact that it is free is good but it limits direct evaluation of providers like CH but you also get more occational mongers vs hobbists showing up on the board and they sometimes get new imput. I guess if there were more picture posting occuring that would probably need even a 3rd tier of paying clients, that have the rights to see pictures (or as at least one site has done videos.)
6. How do other forums handle this situation? I don't really participate in many other forums. So, I can't give you any info here.
Jackson,
The scope and volume of your Forum now dictates that you will need to delegate some authority and establish a moderator process to continue your vision of how a good, FREE site can excell in the increasingly commercial internet environment.
Unless you are willing to abandon all hope of a normal life and dedicate all waking hours (and even that may not be enough) to the micro-management of WSG Forum, the question is no longer "Do we need moderators ?" but "How shall they be picked ?". My suggestions are:
1) Each Main Index geographical area have a moderator for that area. These are picked by you after your customary due deliberation. For LE and PC reasons you should handle the United States.
2) Each sub-category may or may not have have its own sub-moderator. Using Mexico as an example, the main moderator may have an expert knowledge of the Tijuana scene, a general familiarity of the Northwest Border towns, but never has seen the Northern towns south of Texas or the tourist traps like Cancun. Sub-moderators would allow him to concentrate on his area while providing timely responses in other areas.
3) Each Main Index moderator serves at your pleasure to futher your vision for this Forum. Period.
4) Each sub-category moderator is elected to a one (1) year term by the registered members of the Forum. This check-and-balance is meant to keep anyone from establishing his own little fiefdom in one corner of the board.
Ragman
Ps. To Jackson, a big THANK YOU for this most excellent resource.
Sup Jackson,
I've been meaning to respond to whats going on.
As a member for a while, and someone who is an enthusiast in the hobby, WSG has been invaluable. What i find just as valuable is the comradery. Its like a free psyciatrist at times. Yes, it takes away a bit from the reports, but it endears people to WSG and invites people to contribute.
If it ever went to pay status, I think I would cry. Why? Not that i couldn't afford it (not that I want to afford it) but it takes away from the fact that the content is by fellow mongers from all over. There is a community, and sometimes knowing that others are pulling for you or wishing you to be safe is encouraging.
So please, do not consider that. Who ever gestured this in order to up the quality of posting is a fool. Shared knowledge is meaningless if it is not accessible.
You're questions:
"What does Senior Member status mean to you? "
To me, beyond the basic fact that posts get placed immediately, it offers a level of comfort. You can "trust" the report more than others per se for numerous reasons.
As a member who has been around for a while, I often remember a name very easily and recognize that they are who they say they are. But for a new member, it helps to have something to use as a measure. We are guys...we love to measure and compare things. ;)
BTW...it is important to keep in mind that just because one has a regular membership does NOT mean they are new to the WSG. Often they've been here for years just lurking. I recently ran into a WSGer at a local brothel. What a surprise, eh? He never posts, unfortunately, but has successfully planned trips through out Central and South America and had excellent times hobbying. This is due to the guide alone, which he found useful beyond all other sources.
I'm not saying this is the norm...but it should be considered so that actions are tempered appropriately.
"Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?"
I would also prefer Moderated, Regular and Senior.
I think there is a value in screening to an extent.
But...Having you burden yourself with this is nonsense, imo. I salute you for your vigilance against spam. Many IT departments could learn a lesson or two from you.
I can imagine the frustration of regular members posts not hitting the boards until days later. There has to be a happy medium.
Moving to a shared burden with volunteer moderators might be of value. I would NOT stop people from requesting info backchanneled to them. They will post in time. Sooner than later, they will realize that backchannelled info is not much better than that posted.
Often, if it needs to be backchannelled...it truly does need to go backchannel instead of in open threads.
"Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify? "
Whatever promotes up-to-date info is good, imo.
"Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?"
I, too, like the review, if you can keep up with it!
I do STRONGLY suggest you move to at least a shared Moderator system with a moderator FORUM to ask questions and confer knowledge on operations between moderators alone.
Still maintain a level of review, but perhaps the review process can become one that is shared among volunteer moderators. Distributed to an extent. Moderators with free time could go in, review regular member posts virtually around the clock on their free time and help you out.
I'm not attached to "Regular Member" and "Senior Member" as titles -- they work fine, but I wouldn't cry at a change. I do think there is immense value in holding posts for moderation; the absence of spam is what keeps this resource valuable.
I'd only point out one possible addition (or clarification) in the criteria to move from RM to SM -- the requirement that posted reports counting towards the total NOT be derivative of earlier reports, but new information.
I agree that moderators will likely become a necessity down the road, if not already.
Bysshe
Lickin Lounger
08-02-03, 06:49
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stoner
BTW...it is important to keep in mind that just because one has a regular membership does NOT mean they are new to the WSG. Often they've been here for years just lurking.
Stoner's made an excellent point. I can speak from personal experience. I've been reading the WSG from the days when Atta started it up, and it has really helped me pursue this hobby. I only started posting recently though, probably within the past year or two.
"Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?"
I was always a little confused about how Regular members became Senior members, to tell you the truth. However I think the real question is, as you know, how to keep those serial spammers and bozos from posting useless gibberish. It doesn't bother me that I'm only a Regular member, even after years of reading the forum ... though to some guys it might be irksome, I don't know.
"Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify? "
It might be nice if there was a little bit more flexibilty, but along the same lines ... for example, maybe 5 US reports and 3 International reports or something could qualify for an un-moderated membership.
I frequent other sites with similar forums, but always use the WSG as my home base ... primarily because the reports tend to be more accurate and substantial; there are NO ads or commercial postings; and because everything is so neatly organized and focused.
Thank you so much, Jackson, for doing the work that you do to keep this forum alive and well!
Jackson,
As a regular member, Senior membership means that I can usually take that individuals recomendations and advice to the bank. It is an almost automatic endorsement. Therefor it confers both honor and responsibility.
Toward that end, I think that a single international posting is not sufficient, although I do agree that 5 international postings is sufficient. Or possibly some mix where 2 US postings = 1 international posting. Someone who has had only 1 posting even if it is someplace strange like the ukraine may have earned my admiration, but not my trust.
Like others I see a day coming soon when the work of reviewing all of the regular posts becomes too much for even one as capable as yourself. So at a level even higher than Senior membership, I see a need for moderators coming sooner rather than later. Like a board of directors, the number of moderators should be kept small to be effective....perhaps one per continent or 2 for really busy continents. Those moderators could assume the responsibility for reviewing posts from regular members and could vote up/down on admitting someone to Senior membership or taking away that senior membership.
The current structure of senior/no-review vs regular/review has worked very well to weed out the spammers and that makes this one of our most valuable resources.
just my $0.02
I think that your categorizations and advancement criteria are very good. Two additional comments:
- if you can find moderators that you can trust I advocate using them to lessen the time you have to spend on reviewing so that you can spend your time on more useful activities: both on the website and with the chicas
- please keep the website free. It fills a different niche than the pay sites and in my opinion is better for it. I had a 3 month membership to CH but did not renew because I did not see additional value compared to WSG that justified the cost.
Originally posted by Buster Highman
As to why Moondog thinks he should NOT post a great report precisely because anyone can read it is beyond me. This does not seem reasonable to me. Great reports should be read by all.Buster,
Yes, informative reports should be read by all, all those who have an interest in pursuing this hobby that is. Right now, WSG is far too open for any of us to post any photos.
If any of us puts together a good report with a lot of information and photos, we will graciously share it with others who are involved with this hobby, and those who give back as well. But why should we put together an informative post and report just to have it read, and distributed freely by those who do not contribute anything. We post information to help other hobbyists, not for the public.
If a person is truly interested in this hobby, he will share information, and keep his mouth shut to friends, neighbors, and co-workers. If he has no information to share, as he has not taken a trip yet, or does not want to post, he should contribute $$ to the owner in order to avail himself of the reports and information.
CH, TSM, WSA, XTN, are all pay sites or are by invitation only. Everybody contributes either dollars or reports, or they do not read. The quality of reports on those sites is far better than what is posted on WSG, and the reason is that these sites are private, not generally available to snooping chicas, wives, and anybody else that wants to cause harm. Yes anybody can buy a membership, but few do who are not fully involved with this hobby.
Jackson is a great guy, and he runs a great board with a lot of information on it. But it is too accessible. I personally know two good friends who's lives have been made miserable recently because of public access to WSG, and neither of these guys hardly post any more. They used to give quality reports, but now do not because anybody can access WSG and make their lives miserable again.
Until this is made a private and pay site, you will not see the quality reports that are on the other sites posted here as nobody wants to give the information out to the general public.
I like a free deal as much as anyone, but I do not think a person should get a free ride at our expense. We travel, gather information, tell the other guys about the cool girls that we have seen, and places that we have gone to. This is to share information with fellow hobbyists, so that they can "enjoy the life." If a person is not contributing either by dollars or reports, why should he have access to the information?
Moondog
At the risk of sounding self-serving, Moondog isn't alone in making this observation. I've heard exactly the same reasoning from other multi-forum posters that I've met personally, and who I've tried to convince to post in the WSG.
Jackson
Jackson
As always you have put a great deal of thought and effort into trying to put together a system that is workable for everyone. I think you plan for Senior Membership looks fine.
I would only add one point: You are right to observe that Senior Membership seems to have taken on more meaning. To that end you might want to consider a 3 tiered system of membership.
New Member: someone who has only recently started posting. After such a member has made a small number of posts and it is clear that they are not a spammer, upgrade them to Regular Member in the same way your currently upgrade folks to Senior.
Regular Member: Have proven that they are not spammers (evil scum who should die a lengthy and painful death) but do not have any requirements about how much they must post. They are, in every sense of the word. "regular" members
Senior Members: Former Regular Members who have posted numerous detailed messages (not just questions) Senior Member status indicates that the poster has been a member in long standing and has provided valued information to the board. If you want to minimize the work on your part, you can require a Regular Member to assemble copies of his previous posts to make his case.
All of this is just a suggestion; your plan seems fine too. Either way, thank you for your work.
I agree with Prrogman in that your reqquirments are more than fair; I would disagree on the amount of posts needed for one to maintain thier status.
I think that any member who is a serious hobbyist can manage to post more than just one or three times a year. Once every couple of months, for a total of six times a year, sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Member #4239
08-03-03, 09:17
I disagree with moondog and Jackson.
This forum is OPEN and FREE. That makes it great and unique. Moondog seems to propose that this should be another "paid private" forum. Don't we have some of those forums in place already? What is so special about having one more?
Supposedly the fact that the forum is open may discourage some people from posting. I am not sure if that is entirely true, but so what even if it were true? Is their privacy better protected if they get a monthly bill on their credit card from the "world sex forum"? On the other hand, how many good contributors will we lose if the forum were to go "private"?
Bottom line is that some people will just not post. They will use the forum, but they will contribute nothing. That's life. We have plenty of good contributors already and there will be more with time.
I enjoy reading the posts and posting as well, but I would not pay to be a member here. For most destinations that I am interested in, a ten minute chat with a well informed taxi driver or a hotel staff can give me more information than what's in the forum pages. That is not an insult to the forum, it is just a statement of facts.
My worst nightmare is to pay 29.99 for membership, go in the site, click on the first report and see the name "Nibu" come up.
Then I will surely know that my money has been wasted.
Well, as someone who doesn't really "travel" that much, here's my perspective, for what its worth, from someone who's already a "senior member"......
I feel I've contributed a fair amount of information about what I know, in my small corner of the *world.* I think I'd have the "10 post" limit thing covered. Although its all basically limited to one specific area of the country, that doesn't really have a huge hobby scene.
But with regard to the "pay for content stuff."
I was a member of a "pay" site for some time, and it was one of the biggest/most respected/whatever. And i'll be honest. The review/hobby info for my small corner of the world, sucked. MONTHS would pass without any new information being posted. I think at one time, I had posted about 80% of all the reviews that were even close to where I hunt. Now, the scene is not exactly jumping where I am, but I DO know it exists, and there should have been info available. But paying 19.99/month for info that would only get added to once every 3 months (except for the info i updated it with), was, imo, a waste of $$, so I cancelled it.
But here, there is info on my little area updated by several individuals on almost a daily basis. And this is free. To me, the info I've found here, is about 1000x more relevant and useful than about 99.9% of the stuff I've paid to access.
So, I guess I'm saying, at least where I'm concerned, there is absolutely NO need for a pay system. That discourages those who have maybe one or two bits of info to post. Consequently, if you make it a pay site, you'll end up with the same 5 dedicated guys, all talking about the same 10 pieces of tail. The "freeness" of the system allows those who don't have enough info/or hobby experience to feel justified in sharing. If you make it pay, those little nuggets from the one or two timer, will disappear. Those nuggets, imo, are what keep the info flowing.
Not everyone is in this to take trips to costa rica and pattaya. Some just want to know, where they can drive in the next county over to find some tail for sale, whether that means on the streetcorner, in a strip club, or from some escort agency. And, I think you'll find the latter group is much more common than the former group.
That said, as someone who's already a senior memberI guess I'd just like to petition or whatever to get my name changed to Almighty, instead of almighty, to conform with the "name" requirements.
A short note about the proposed changes...
I have a sugestion...
Encourage members to post pictures WITH posts
A) Seinor members can view pictures in posts for free
B) Standard Memebers can view pictures for free for one month after submitting a post with embeded picture or attaching a picture to a post no more that 14 days old.
C) Standard members PAY TO VIEW EMBEDED PICTURES
D) Cheap voyers can still use the forum as always
This proposal adresses several posted concerns:
1) Pictures cost money to support on a BBS
2) It encourages everyone to improve the value of their posts with pictures.
3) It recognizes the Seinor members for their continued contributions.
4) It provides Standard members with a way to avoid paying to view pictures by submitting high quality post with photo content.
5) It allows the voyers to pay to view the pictures like they do everywhere else...
And remember the Pic's can be of important stuff like:
a) Maps
b) Picture of the front of a building
c) Picture of a Hotel and or room
d) Monger Language Guide :)
e) A ripoff provider :(
f) A layout of the best spots inside a building
At the end of the day I will support anything Jackson decides on...
His continued comitment and efforts make him the best person to way all the problems against all the benefits...
And he has done a great job!!!!
-Max
The goal is to continue to improve the value of each post to the members.
There should be a vouching system of some sort. I have met a few 100 mongers so far, either in NYC and or The Dominican Republic. It just would be that a certain poster has mongered with other posters and not is a spammer. Maybe under your handle, would list a few others that have met you. I would vouch for some that I have mongered with many a night.
This was the second site I ever posted on. WSG.org was the first.
I am not on that one any more.
Regarding pictures. If you want to post pictures, set up a yahoo club, link it and post away. I have done that and now have 1,810
members. Its free to create and free for all to see.
I suggest that if a member has posted 10 posts which did not need to be moderated or corrected for one reason or other, shall be made full member i.e. his post will be visible immediately. This shall be given as a previlige and not as a matter of right. If he breaks the guide line he shall be warned twice & then this previlage taken back and to get it back one shall fulfill the condition above twice.i.e. 20 posts.
Ask for payment & you will see everyone disapear from here including the information.
OttoGraham
08-04-03, 20:23
Originally posted by J.G.
I disagree with moondog and Jackson.
This forum is OPEN and FREE. That makes it great and unique. Moondog seems to propose that this should be another "paid private" forum. Don't we have some of those forums in place already? What is so special about having one more?
I think that this forum's best feature is its cost. However, somebody has to pay the bills. At a minimum, I think advertising by way of pop-ups or banner ads is therefore appropriate.
I have subscribed to other forums such as Club ****** and Captain 69 in the past. I subscribe to none, currently. Why? There is no doubt that on occasion those places have provided me with useful information. However, the best value for your hard-earned money is sitting right here in front of you on your computer screen.
I also think that more stringent guidelines for the privilege of making instant posts by way of "Senior Membership" are appropriate. The greatest failing of the forum is the lack of participation by 90%+ of its readers. This, of course, is due to same factor that gives the forum its greatest strength. No real solution for this short of charging, unfortunately. And by instituting charges, there would be little to distinguish this forum from all the other paid ones.
My humble two cents.
-Uncle Otto
Adding a voice, yet again...you can't please everyone all of the time. Some won't post cause its free, many won't post if its not. The hardcore will remain, but for how long before they wander to the plethora of other very established pay sites.
IMO...you have a niche --- exploit it. So far, this niche has done excellent on all accounts and can only get better. Being a clone means jack. If you need donations...you need only ask I'm sure. A little link to paypal...I'd gladly add a few dollars to the plate.
BTW...*******...I remember you're post on wsg.org. ;) you've come a LONG damn way.
Question to Jackson......
I went back and re-read the propsed senior membership stuff.
I'm still a bit unclear about one thing concerning those of use who do already HAVE sr. membership status, but don't have a conforming name (such as mine).
Do I need to change my name, or are our sr. membership status' going to be grandfathered in?
Mistapenus
08-05-03, 11:15
A few thoughts about the possible 'phuture' of the Forum, senior members' responsibilities, etc.
I believe that the future lies in continual improvement (up to infinity). This is a task for all of us 'dedicated members' and not only for Jackson.
A senior member ought to have not only privileges but responsibilities as well. As a 'senior-member' please assist by actively observing an enforcing the following:
1./First of all, it's amazing how much garbage is mixed with real useful info. To set up a 'chatroom' as Jackson has proposed (somewhere) could possible clean-up some of the useless chit-chat.
2./Members could be encouraged to post 'useful' info in the main area and carry on their one-to-one conversations in the 'chatroom' or similar convenience.
Whoring indeed is a time-consuming activity and one would rather save some time from shifting through junk before finding something worthwhile.
It could be one of the responsibilities of senior-members to adhere to this.
Can I suggest one dedicated window in the log-on procedure to inform members what a useful posting is required to be like?
Eg: -We don't really care... who u are
-....where you come from
-.... how much u earn
-....who your family are
-.... etc.
If you don't realize the necessity of this, then look at the Cambodia/Phnon Penh link right now! It's real crap.
A possible list of posting guidelines could be:
...If it does not refer to the subject then leave it out! Please!
...Ask as few questions as possible ( or go to chat-room).
...Convey as many experiences as possible.
...If you want to just chat, then go to the chat-room!
...Think:"MEANINGFUL Posting!"
If you can't adhere to these than your postings are useless and should be downgraded back to the 'kiddies'.
Can I also suggest a VIP room for accomplished members if possible (eg. over 100 postings). These individuals may have some more in common than the 'novices'.
How about an 'Executive Lounge' for those with over 500 'meaningful' posts or so?
Thanx.
Nobody Home
08-05-03, 19:30
Jackson,
I have enjoyed this forum since the early days and was bummed when it went away. I forgot about it for so long and was happy to find it made a comeback. As a guide for your changes, you might want to check a music forum called The Velvet Rope (velvetrope.com). They have moderated and un-moderated forums. My suggestion is make moderated forums for new and regular menbers until they "earn" Senior privileges and have an un-moderated forum for those who are of senior tenure. Just my opinion. Keep up the great work.
Hi Nobodyishome,
That's an interesting idea. I'll add it to the list of possible options for re-designing the website.
Thanks,
Jackson
What does Senior Member status mean to you?
Aside from immediate posting, which is nice, it means that you have, at some point, put a stamp of approval on that member. I appreciate that trust and believe senior members need to continue to be held to the same standards after they receive that status. That said, I believe there needs to be a method to bring into question members who started out well and changed the quality of their posts, for whatever reason.
Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
There needs to be some separation, whatever you call it. First to eliminate the spam, and second as a tool in the case of how one responds. I usually answer a senior member's questions much more thouroughly and specifically and generally only answer email from senior members.
Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
Criteria are reasonable, but one overseas trip report can be fabricated by LE or even copied from another forum, so I would make anyone post at least five other reports before the upgrade.
The email thing needs to have some latitude as most of us use free webmail providers (lack of a paper trail) who put restrictions on the amount of storage we can use. Mine fills up if I cannot check it in a week. If you cannot contact us, yes, it is reasonable to temporarily reduce our status until we correct the problem, and have the status renewed once we fix the problem.
Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
Perfect.
How do other forums handle this situation?
Most don't, they delete spam after it occurs and you have no way of guageing the history of a poster... One reason WSG rocks!
LoveLOS
here's what i think.
if i understand it correctly, moderated posts were done to cut down on unecessary spam.
to me, if a member has demonstrated that s/he is not this sort, then they should have the ability to post immediately and (more importantly) edit their posts. there's not that many asking for senior status (57 last time i checked) so maybe the requirements are either a little stringent or people don't care. i'm hoping that those that make the effort to request this are processed through soon.
i don't care so much about any so-called 'cachet' to being a senior member. you could call me junior level poobah and i would be happy, so long as i could edit my posts and see them as a reply in a timely fashion.
i don't like the nomination part of this (although it looks like this may have been taken out?) by another senior member. it seems rather [CodeWord130] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord130) as opposed to keeping with the original intent (keeping out spammers). jackson doesn't want to 'judge' the quality of one's posts, but judging by the nominations by other senior members, that seems to be exactly what is happening.
lastly, people provide information that is relevant to this board and it's members other than travel. i provide medical information that i take time to research and make sure it is up to date (one of the reasons i would like to edit posts!). certainly takes as much time as many of the international/national reports.
but this is jackson's board, he foots the bills and has the headache of vetting members and their posts. then again, he did ask what we thought! :)
yr humble poobah
just an aside, when is this 'senior vetting process' going to take place?
as with everything else, when i get the f###ing time!
jackson
Paul in WV
08-07-03, 01:37
Jackson,
Thank you as always for creating a one of a kind forum. I think that Regular / Senior designations are fine if they help you fight spam. I'm a "regular" currently rather than a "senior" but I feel good knowing that my posts appear immediately. With 20+ posts I always assumed that I have a kind of clearance. So to me Senior woud mean getting real time responses to real time posts from those who are also allowed real time posts.
Just to keep your life simple and to enable the Forum to operate effectively, I agree that you need to have some type of designations set up to reduce the number of posts that you or someone else needs to review in the first place.
Your criteria is fine though I would raise one hurdle. Writing one detailed report on a city should not be enough. I'd raise it to 5.
Also to the extent possible, it would be great to let members of the geographical forum that they post to respond to their application. Again to make your life simple (there is so much xxx and so little time), have those who apply designate where they post and post their request there. So if I were asking to be upgraded I would ask to have it posted in West Virginia - Charleston and Other. Then let the members who are familiar with their posts vote yea or nay or give you feedback. We all know each others posts and who contributes.
Finally, I took a look at the "I want to be promoted" site and the "I want to participate in discussion" site. I couldn't see the point to posting there without contributing anything. I'd suggest that you review all the posts here and upgrade those who honestly took time to contribute and make this a better Forum.
Keep on trucking.
Paul in WV
Jackson,
I agree with most of your proposed Senior Member criteria but I agree with LOVELOS below that just one overseas trip does not make a senior member. That would be too easily fabricated. Yes we do need to maintain the Senior/Regular member designations.
Thank you for maintaining this excellent forum!
XSailor
Jackson,
This is my first opportunity to addresss a post to you personally, so a "thank you" is in order for this excellent medium to get valuable info on a "hobby" which would otherwise be either too difficult or too costly to get. You can not begin to imagine how important WSG is to a guy like me who travels frequently. I know exactly where to go and what to expect even before I take a plane to any location my job takes me to. I am not even mentioning the fellow forumers whom I have had the pleasure to meet thanks to WSG. Good job!
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
Indeed, the seniority status of a member implies more knowledgeable and prolific Forum contributors to me and I tend to value their reports higher than others.
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
I think the Forum needs some sort of differentiation not only for moderation purposes but also for distinguishing contributions of members.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
I think the criteria are designed with the perspective of a member from US (10 US reports or 5 international reports). The international members (although I am an international member myself) do have a clear advantage to become senior members. My suggestion would be to level the playing ground by increasing the international report requirement to 10 just as USA reports. Or perhaps, specifying 10 local reports wherever the member is located and/or 5 international reports could also do the trick.
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
I believe the review procedure is very reasonable. If it proves to be too cumbersome in the future, you have the right to revise accordingly. I believe that a formal review procedure in place will ensure the quality of reporting as well.
5. How do other forums handle this situation?
I am a member of a local forum where I live and the forum does not have seniority differentiation. The way moderation is handled is by use of 10+ moderators managing the forum 7/24 with almost draconian rules.
Best wishes,
NC
Coxslinger
08-10-03, 03:56
The spammers have caused enough problems. Several weeks ago I tried to log in... I am only a "regular" member, having only a couple of posts. There must have been some changes underway, because my attempt to sign in was repeatedly rejected. I basically gave up after a couple of days. I'm glad that things are being worked out.
Coxslinger
How about expanding just a bit more. Give a status for those with 100, 250, 500+.
Thanks
Jackson,
I have not been a member for too long. I post in the Louisville, KY forum. I was a "trolling" reader of the forum for some time before I got the nerve to post. As such, I am not sure whether my opinion is desired, but I felt inclined to voice it considering the effect (for the better) that this forum has had on my life.
This is your forum, and a very nice one at that. I trust and respect your judgement considering how well you have administered this site. I do not post a lot because my job seems to keep me eternally busy, but I also am not requesting senior membership status. I have learned quite a lot from the more experienced members, like Shamas, through this forum. I simply appreciate it being here.
I apologize if this doesn't add too much to the conversation, but I just wanted to weigh in and say that I owe you a tremendous amount of gratitude, and any policy regarding member status that you see fit to implement for security and spam reasons if fine by me.
Thanks again,
Damocles
ps: And a special thanks to Shamas for everything you have ever posted.
Alan Writer
08-11-03, 21:54
My one thought on this subject is that requiring a certain number of posts should get the postings to increase. Hopefully, that will happen in the Arkansas board.
Alan Writer
First, congratulations on having a very successful forum, and thank you for the help it has been to me.
What does Senior Member status mean to you?
Not much. The ability to join in the chit-chat, which clogs the forum anyway. To edit a message is nice, but after 30 years designing systems I don't think ANYONE except the admin should be able to edit a message after about 3 days anyway. NOT BEING a senior member has certain advantages. I need feel no responsiblility to answer questions, because I can't in a meaningful time frame. I can make fewer posts, because I can't post anything time critical, and therefore am tempted to summarize.
I don't mind my posts being reviewed, because I don't care. I am contributing because of my support for the hobby and men in general. Mess with my posts too much and I will simply not bother. For the important information here, the forum needs my good will as much/more than I need the forum's, and this is true of all the posters.
Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
Only to the extent that a review period is necessary to prevent the bulk of the spammer's. And it should be as short as possible. And a better designation would be "New Member", "Regular Member". This tends to eliminate the "vanity plate" aspect, which is detrimental. Now, the only real difference is the ability to engage in chit-chat, which is causing a huge problem anyway.
The reason the designation is not useful is because many postings and senior status do not necessarily convey important information. Ten trips to the most popular 3 spots and reports on them really helps no one very much. We end up with 900 Penthouse Letter reports on these spots. Like the Del Rey and New Fantasy in Costa Rica. But anyone who has something different has information we want. As I mentioned in my e-mail to you, the important information here is adversarial. Most people mentioned usually do not like it, even when it is complementary. This is because one of the most useful marketing tools is an uninformed consumer, and they don't want comparisons. We are continuously being exploited and defrauded, and there are a great many people telling us where to go and how to spend money. Very important information is what to AVOID because of exploitation and fraud, including by LE. This information can be obtained by infrequent or new posters as well/better than anyone, because it is ONLY obtained by the participant, often unwillingly.
For "Vanity Plate" status, I think for you a better idea is a contribution level designation for $ contributed. "Supporter", "Senior Supporter", "Executive Supporter" for various $ contribution levels. You might adjust the levels for currency differences for local contributors. Also, since it is your forum, you could award $ status for outstanding contributors you like. I like this system because it sort of lets me monitor how much money you are getting in contributions.
For those who want a pay site, why? You already have several. So you will have another audience for your vanity? You want another site of only you and a few others who praise your stuff? Pictures and descriptions of women and the explicit action don't help much because it can be hard to repeat, especially by another person who may look and act differently. And they tend to harm the women more than help, by creating undue attention and expectations. Until you get the type of situation that was created for Wanda in Costa Rica, who had guys waiting in line and it became intolerable.
On pictures, I think TjMax had great comments on really useful pictures. If you don't want the information public, you shouldn't post it anywhere. Post more general information.
I, for one, am willing to support the casual poster/user who might help me out with the right info, because I am very likely to need it as a continual participant, since I plan to travel continuously while health permits. I want to attract this poster/user. The argument for a pay site is that it will discourage participation by infrequent posters and hobbiers. HUH?
The last thing we need is less participation, and this is the only large open group I am aware of. It isn't so much the money. It is more the fact that one has to pay before seeing the merchandise, and the difficulty of paying. We are too used to being exploited to want to do this to join a group.
Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
The criteria to meet for real time posting to prevent spammers is reasonable. A pain in the butt enough so that a spammer can't do it automatically and frequently.
Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
It is much too complicated. This can be far easier. Since each new member posting must be reviewed by definition, when it is reviewed, if it contributes to the criteria, give the poster a credit. When the proper credits are reached, you will know this when the qualifying credit is added. Make the upgrade automatic at that point. No further action is necessary or useful. There is very little additional work. Any type of senior review/recomendation/negation is going to create a poisonous atmosphere and make the entire "old boy" business more ridiculous than it already is.
How do other forums handle this situation?
The original world sex guide solved this problem at the same time it solved the spam and chit-chat problem. Atta seems to have selected messages to post into the forum, and did not select messages that did not contribute real info. This might be
one way to solve these problems here. The monitor / administrator could copy important messages to an archive area. That way, people could review the archive area for basic info without having to read 100's of messages of chit-chat. This is vital in Buenos Aires where it is prohibitive to review the entire main areas.
Thanks for the opportunity to speak.
originally posted by shamas
how about expanding just a bit more. give a status for those with 100, 250, 500+.
thanks
sheer number of postings is irrelevant; it's quality that counts. no, there should be regular members - those who have yet to prove themselves -and senior members - those already have. as for the status of individual senior members, let that be determined by that posters peers on his respective board, and not by numbers.
Originally posted by Barista
Sheer number of postings is irrelevant; it's quality that counts.
The analogy that I like to use is that McDonald's sells more hamburgers than anyone else in the world. That does not mean they make the best hamburger in the world. Hell, some of us would say that doesn't even mean they make a good hamburger. It means they are good at marketing.
Ragman
As far as I am concerned, the proposed guidelines seem good in general, although if it was up to me, I would make the review guidelines a lot stricter. In my opinion, one report, no matter how good it is, does not make anyone "senior".
At a general level, however, I agree that the proposed guidelines would take the forum to the right direction.
For me these new guidelines sound fair just as long as the guys like myself are able to reply instantly and help out the junior members with their expetise of their local threads.
I would possibly suggest that maybe if Jackson wants to releave a bit of responsibilty off himself .I would like to put forward that Jackson deligate one or possibly two specialist from each country or city to help him administer their own section.That way Jackson will have more time to tend to the bigger needs of this fine site and leave the spam and poision posters to others.
I for one would be willing to put my words to reality and get the ball rolling.
Originally posted by Cossem
.....I would possibly suggest that maybe if Jackson wants to releave a bit of responsibilty off himself .I would like to put forward that Jackson deligate one or possibly two specialist from each country or city to help him administer their own section.That way Jackson will have more time to tend to the bigger needs of this fine site and leave the spam and poision posters to others.
Along those lines, why just one or two people a country? For smaller countries, that may be fine, but for larger areas, such as the U.S. or Canada, a persson per state or province might be more appropriate. For larger states, such as Texas, New York and California, a person per region might be even more so. Actually drafting the guidelines for individual administers might be a bit of a pain, but, in the long run, it would be worth it.
As many others have said, thank you very much for this board. I have been reading it for a long time (Atta if you are Jackson, then thanks, if not, he/she really deserves a lot of credit). I have recently started posting because I now control my own IP addresses, etc. and am reasonably assured of remaining anonymous. This may be one reason there is not more participation. In any case, on to your specific questions:
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
Frankly, not much. I have decided to contribute as an infrequent participant in the hobby. Others have really helped me out, and the time is long overdue for me to give something back. Since I do not go out very often, my reports will not be frequent. But since I travel extensively worldwide, (see reports in London, Singapore and Iran for example), I will give what I can. If you or someone else wants to put in the time to moderate these reports, then that is great. I think moderating (or moderation for that matter ;-) improves the overall quality and keeps the noise level down (citing recent flaming going on in the ATL section). If you decide that I am for real and want to move me to Senior status, then that is great. If not, then that is okay too. But frankly, since I do not care whether I am a senior member or not as long as I can contribute, then being a regular member is just fine with me. Along those lines, it is very unlikely that I will every request senior status because a) I am happy being a regular member, and b) I am slammed with work as it is. (I guess we all are). So, while your proposal seems good, it might make sense to move people to senior status that you know are contributors for real, even if they do not request it. This might be a good idea for two reasons. First, it reduces your work load by not having to review these people all the time, and second, it would make them feel good to know that you have seen enough of their postings to trust them to post themselves (speaking personally).
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
I think the differentiation is valuable if for no other reason than to keep the SPAM noise down. I run four UNIX servers. I estimate that the SPAM load on these servers is something like 75% to 80% of total traffic!!! (As a side discussion, something really has to be done about this. It is a royal pain in the ass.) So anything you can do to keep the spammers at bay would be great. (BTW, if I can help here, contact me by email. It's an us vs. them situation out there.) Also, I think the senior member status reduces your workload, and that is a very good thing too. The last thing we want is burned out moderators. We *really* appreciate the work you do. Thank you again.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
I think that overall, the criteria are reasonable. They encourage participation without being too draconian. I saw some comments about leveling US vs. International requirements. My feeling is that some members (myself included) enjoy the hobby outside the US too. I would encourage these posts since they tend to be vaulable to those of us who do travel. Having a lower requirement in this area is one way to do it. Lets face it. This is a volunteer effort. We want more participation not less. I think you have the criteria just about right. It encourages people to contribute without setting the bar too high.
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
The revie procedure seems fine to me, but as I said above, I would add that you should have the right to sumarily promote someone to senior status for whatever reason you like, including that they are contributing and that continuing to moderate their posts is a pain and not required anyway (perhaps this would be me one day). Whatever - I just want to be sure that you do what you can to lower your work load so that the great job of moderation continues.
5. How do other forums handle this situation?
Some other forums have moderators that seem to have let their status go to their heads. This can be a real problem and kills the forum quickly. It then becomes a chat group for a select bunch. The WSG has done an excellent job of avoiding this problem. I would be *very* selective about who you might have help with moderator duties as this really affects the tenor of the group. I am very happy with how things have been going (thanks again for stepping in over on the ATL board). Keep up the great work!!
Aviator
Jackson,
Kudo's for keeping the spammers out of the WSG, and anything you need to do in order to keep it clean is OK.
Your Senior Member rules look fine.
Thanks for a great board.
(Any chance you will ever update the photo section?)
Flashman
The guidelines seem pretty fair to me.
I would say the Regular Member needs to have been enrolled for at least 30 days AND have posted at least 10 or 15 posts, before it is even considered for upgrade to Senior.
The ability to post in real-time is important to keep the Forum updated to the minute on important issues. A delay of only a day or two can --in some instances-- make a big difference, and help somebody or perhaps the exact opposite; by not getting a timely update published, the community could not benefit in a timely fashion from a potentially critical report on something going on that should be shared.
I think the benefits of this forum and the way it is maintained command a big round of applause and commendation.
Please, keep up the good work!
NetPro
Alan Writer
08-15-03, 14:34
I think it was Moondog who made the argument that a pay site is safer at keeping things anonymous than an open or free, site like WSG. That argument has been gnawing at the back of my mind for a while, and I want to respond to the faulty logic contained in it.
How can a pay site be safer at keeping identities hidden? Moondog tells of a couple of "friends" who have had their lives made miserable because they posted on an open board where wives, bosses, girl friends, etc. can read what is posted there.
These guys must have been stupid. WSG does not require that any personal information be given by any of its members. All you have to have is a user name and an email address. Anyone can get a free, anonymous email address from Yahoo, Hotmail, or a number of other services, again without having to give any real personal information. And all of the user names at WSG should be anonymous as well. So, if someone is careful and does not use his real name and unwisely link personal information to their WSG membership, then there is little chance of someone he does not wish to know finding out about his posts.
The only chance there would be of that is that the site info may be kept on the hard drive of his computer. But that is true even of pay sites, and just as many questions would be raised about why a pay site's info is on a hard drive as it would be about a free site. And if someone is being that nosy, the password to the free site will be there to be found too. So, with that fact alone, Moondog's argument breaks down.
However, even the hard drive problem can be avoided if the member will purge his cookies, history files, and temporary internet files regularly as well as defraging his hard drive from time to time.
In addition, a pay site DOES require a member to give personal information that is linked to his membership and, therefore, to his posts. If nothing else, the member of a pay site must give some method of payment such as a bank account or credit card. That leaves a paper trail of the membership as well. That is much riskier than a free membership in WSG.
So, Moondog's arugument just doesn't hold up. Give me the free, open site any day. I will sleep easier at night.
--Alan Writer
Hi Alan,
You're missing one important point regarding the dynamics of an online forum: Pulling out a credit card and paying for a membership is a deterrent to potential trouble makers. Simply put, spammers, wives, girlfriends, bosses, fellow employees, etc. will not pay for memberships.
Jackson
Jackson --- This board is an important part of a lot of guys lives --- Its saved them thousands of dollars and kept everyone up to date as to their local seen --- I for one read the local bord in the city I live in every day, plus the Mexico board and of course the Argentina board--- Its like picking up the sports page --- I truly think you should expand the forum to include more recent pictures and more of them and charge a fee as your competitors do --- Thanks Jackson --- Exon
Regular or Senior?
A bandwidth saver: Everybody Regular!
It would be impossible to have 'you say this and I say that and you say this and....etc' postings if all postings were delayed by approximately 24 to 48 hours...
On paid membership:
Why would anyone pay to give information?
Also,
"a pay site is safer at keeping things anonymous than an open or free".
A memberslist is NOT safe in the hands of IBill, CCBill and the rest of 'em.
The memberslist IS safe in Jackson's hands: I have not been spammed on the Freeler associated e-mail addy yet!
Originally posted by Alan Writer
I think it was Moondog who made the argument that a pay site is safer at keeping things anonymous than an open or free, site like WSG. That argument has been gnawing at the back of my mind for a while, and I want to respond to the faulty logic contained in it.
How can a pay site be safer at keeping identities hidden? Moondog tells of a couple of "friends" who have had their lives made miserable because they posted on an open board where wives, bosses, girl friends, etc. can read what is posted there.
These guys must have been stupid.
Alan Writer,
No the guys are not stupid, but some mistakes were made. It was then very easy for snooping eyes to log on to WSG with their own free account, and read everything the poster had written. With a membership that requires payment of say $60/year to gain access, people are very reluctant to pay for this if they are just curious bystanders who want a free look.
TSM/WSA, CH, XTN are all pay sites or by invitation only. I and others post a lot on those sites, including websites, photos, maps, and other very useful information, and each has their niche. At the same time though, we will not post this information on WSG as it is far too open to the public. For the others, you really have to dig to find the sites, some even take two different user ids and passwords to access. Some are invitation only.
I enjoy the hobby, will help out with plenty of information and photos, but not on a public site that every chica can see and read. Yes they can pay for a membership, but they will not.
Also by paying, Jackson is relieved of being the judge of posts, and whether or not a person should be upgraded. Like a chica, judgement is very subjective. Paid membership ensures all members are treated equally, and helps with the costs of running the site.
Moondog
I'd be very reluctant to pay $60 a year for a paysite if I did not know for sure whether or not it had any information relevant to my locale. Living in a larger city is one thing; the county in which I live is not all that big, population-wise, and of a very conservative bent to boot. The good thing about Jackson's site is that, if I were to be disapointed with the lack of information (check out the United States-Washington State - Bremerton forum), at least I paid nothing for that disapointment. As far as maps and pictures - I have maps in my car, and I care less for pics than I do for real-live women.
I fail to see, furthermore, the corelation between a site being a for-profit one and the lack of responsibility on the moderators part for ensuring the worthiness of what is posted; in my mind, the responsibility is greater, since the priviledge of just reading such posts and deriving usefull information is being paid for.
I still cannot see how a pay site would be any better at keeping the identity of a poster hidden than this one, MoonDog. I noticed that, in replying to Alan Writer's post on that subject, you snipped his most convincing argument - that, in order to pay for membership, credit card information has to be collected. With this site, all that is required is an email address, and the smart poster will create one just for it - the email address that I used in order to gain membership to this site is not the same one that I use for my regular day-to-day communications. While I understand Jackson's counterpoint to the issue, to me, it still does not address the security issue, especially if you have a poster who makes, what you have termed, "mistakes".
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
I contribute as a frequent partaker in the joys of sex and post to let others know the locations, prices and also my thoughts on the sex scene. To my mind Sr Member status means someone who has a lot of exp. in the sex market and can guide others to make it safer and more enjoyable.
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
That is something you must decide as you know how much spam this site attracts. Whichever system reduces your workload is the best one. Thank you.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
No problems there
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
It is reasonable but then it should work both ways. If you think a Sr member is losing it then you should down-grade the chap.
5. How do other forums handle this situation?
No idea as yours is the only one i belong to. Other discussion groups have several on line moderators/managers and they delete spam and rude messages as and when, as well as cancelling membership of those who are troublesome.
Hope this 2% helps.
Ray.
Originally posted by Barista
I'd be very reluctant to pay $60 a year for a paysite if I did not know for sure whether or not it had any information relevant to my locale. Living in a larger city is one thing; the county in which I live is not all that big, population-wise, and of a very conservative bent to boot. The good thing about Jackson's site is that, if I were to be disapointed with the lack of information (check out the United States-Washington State - Bremerton forum), at least I paid nothing for that disapointment. As far as maps and pictures - I have maps in my car, and I care less for pics than I do for real-live women.
Barista,
When I first joined TSM, there was a small monthly trial charge. That was got me started. I saw it , liked it, and joined. If I had not cared for it, then there was no money out except what I had spent for the trial.
I fail to see, furthermore, the corelation between a site being a for-profit one and the lack of responsibility on the moderators part for ensuring the worthiness of what is posted; in my mind, the responsibility is greater, since the priviledge of just reading such posts and deriving usefull information is being paid for.
There is no lack of responsibility requirement for a pay site vs non-pay site. The owner/moderator is still responsible for the postings, but Jackson is not put in the position of deciding who will or will not be promoted to a certain status. Take a look at this now, everybody and their brother is asking to be promoted to a Senior Member. Why should Jackson have to use his time to Judge?
I still cannot see how a pay site would be any better at keeping the identity of a poster hidden than this one, MoonDog. I noticed that, in replying to Alan Writer's post on that subject, you snipped his most convincing argument - that, in order to pay for membership, credit card information has to be collected. With this site, all that is required is an email address, and the smart poster will create one just for it - the email address that I used in order to gain membership to this site is not the same one that I use for my regular day-to-day communications. While I understand Jackson's counterpoint to the issue, to me, it still does not address the security issue, especially if you have a poster who makes, what you have termed, "mistakes".
Paper trail? Yes. Problems with it? No. I have been a member of pay sites for years, and have never had a problem. Let me give you an example of how this will work for you.
One poster's "mistake" was not to delete the history of sites visited in his browser. So when snooping eyes in his family decided to do some exploring, all they had to do was create a handle with a free email account, and they were in. They would not have done this with a credit card payment as a requirement.
On the other end of the spectrum, a person who did pay to join one of the pay sites started to make trouble for one of the posters. Because of good tracking ability, the trouble maker was identified, confronted, and his antics were stopped. Turned out he was a disgruntled guy, who was jealous of the poster's ability to travel to far off places all the time.
We pay for good information from bartenders, chicas, bellman, hotel front desk clerks, etc. Why not pay for information from guys all over the world? You go to a destination, explore, write it up to help out the other guys, and post it. Why should every person in the world be able to read about your work without helping out himself? If he is a paid up member, even if he never reports, his contributions help the owner defray the costs.
I know guys who use only this site, because it is free. They take all the information from here, and use it to full advantage for themselves, never contributing one iota to the board for anyone else. With a pay system, at least he is paying for the information like everyone else. Everybody knows about WSG because it is free, but many of the guys who write to me asking about BA know nothing about the other sites that are pay sites. I've got a BA guide that I wrote to help the new guy in town, that answers many of the questions they have. Is is kept updated, and it is posted on the other sites, but not here. Others have paid and contributed to view websites like mine and other contributors, so why should we offer it to the world free of charge with no intent by the viewers to give back either with a monetary contribution or by a report of their own. There are a lot of excellent reports on the other boards, but they will never be posted here.
You say you do not need maps, but detailed maps showing where the clubs and cafes, and hot spots are located are very helpful to the new guy. You may not need photos, but photos of the girls and the information provided in many good reports are what got newbies coming to BA who have become very popular among the masses, and they do give back. But I guarantee the quality of reports would increase if people knew they were just going to mongers who actually cared about writing a report to help others or who contribute with a yearly fee.
We could debate this forever, so let us agree to disagree. To me though, the pay sites are much better for content, safety, and features than a free one. Everybody pays with reports or money for the others, why not here? That way we all would contribute something, and the quality and time that you put in a report would not go to waste on a freeloader.
Enjoy the life,
Moondog
Moondog,
I guess I missed the URL's to the paysites you are advertising.
Where are they?
THNX!
Freeler,
Email me at: moondog2005@yahoo.com
Moondog
Jackson,
here are my views on your questions re.membership.
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
I do not care all that much, but it makes me feel good to see that my long-standing committment to a high-quality forum is valued.
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
No, it is not needed, but if such a distinction means a seggregation between proven and tested individuals who can post unrestricted, and those under probation, then it is fine with me, and it is useful to make this forum civilised and interesting.
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
I might not qualify under those rules, since I do not post as much as I used to (this being due to my reducing a lot my mongering in the last two years).
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
I admire you for your obvious pursuit of fairness. I would be happy to let you use your total discretion, at the risk of your being arbitrary. Having seen you operate this forum for years, I am sure that a reasonable appeal to one of your decisions would be garanteed to get a fair appraisal anyhow.
5. How do other forums handle this situation?
Other discussion groups have several on line who can delete spam and rude messages, as well as cancelling membership of those who are troublesome.
Originally posted by MoonDog
Paper trail? Yes. Problems with it? No. I have been a member of pay sites for years, and have never had a problem. I guess this is truly a case of "ymmv."
One poster's "mistake" was not to delete the history of sites visited in his browser. So when snooping eyes in his family decided to do some exploring, all they had to do was create a handle with a free email account, and they were in. They would not have done this with a credit card payment as a requirement.Like I said before, this was all the fault of the individual concerned, and not necesarily a fault of the site being free. Allowing for sloppy browsing habits just because a site is for-pay is not really an excuse, in my book. One can only protect a person from himself for but so long, and only a certain extent.
On the other end of the spectrum, a person who did pay to join one of the pay sites started to make trouble for one of the posters. Because of good tracking ability, the trouble maker was identified, confronted, and his antics were stopped. Turned out he was a disgruntled guy, who was jealous of the poster's ability to travel to far off places all the time.Hence that little link at the bottom of each and every post....
We pay for good information from bartenders, chicas, bellman, hotel front desk clerks, etc. Why not pay for information from guys all over the world? You go to a destination, explore, write it up to help out the other guys, and post it. Why should every person in the world be able to read about your work without helping out himself? If he is a paid up member, even if he never reports, his contributions help the owner defray the costs.Hey, I'm not arguing with you on principle; I just don't see WSG becomming a pay site as the panacea that I perceive you to think it is. Trust me, if I knew that a for-pay WSG was going to have a decent amount of info on my area (scarce as SW activity is here), I'd join in a minute. However, I have to look at it this way: a for-pay site will not have the sheer number of potential posters that a free site does; from that reuced pool, an even smaller number will be posting on my area, as well as other smaller towns. Joining a pay site that caters almost exclusively to the larger cities is ccounter to my intrests at this point.
I know guys who use only this site, because it is free. They take all the information from here, and use it to full advantage for themselves, never contributing one iota to the board for anyone else. With a pay system, at least he is paying for the information like everyone else.You'll get no argument from me on that point. All I can say - at the risk of sounding like a broken record (or a scratched CD, guess I'm showing my age) is that this site has so many more potential posters because it is free. Someone who lives and conducts his buisiness almost exclusively in an area such as Kitsap County, Washington would be very hard pressed to put down even just $5/month in the hopes that some little bit of info relevant to him is thrown his way. At least with a freee WSG, the chances are that much greater.
We could debate this forever, so let us agree to disagree.Good idea.
To me though, the pay sites are much better for content, safety, and features than a free one. Everybody pays with reports or money for the others, why not here? That way we all would contribute something, and the quality and time that you put in a report would not go to waste on a freeloader.I really don't mind the fact that my contributions won't always be reciporicated, but then again, that's me. Perhaps it's my New Land Buddhist upbringing, but I honestly do believe that my own efforts will eventually be brought into balance. I honestly don't look for the immediate payoff, espoecially when posting to a free site such as this one.
Enjoy the life,Mucho mahalo;
Barista
wa_barista@hotmail.com
This subject was closed to further posting on 8-16-03.
If you have additional comments on this subject, please post them in the "Comment on Site Rules" area of the Site Administration section of the Forum.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment on this issue.
========================================
FINAL SUMMARY POSTED on 8-16-03
I found the discussion regarding Senior Membership requirements to be quite beneficial. The general consensus was that both the criteria and the upgrade process were reasonable, and I have already made a number of Senior Member upgrades.
As I began the process of upgrading prospective Senior Members, I modified the upgrade process to eliminate the requirement that the prospective Senior Member be seconded by another Senior member, largely due to the fact that it wasn’t beneficial in the decision making process because it was too cumbersome to go looking for the message seconding the prospective Senior Member during the review.
In addition, I eliminated the suggestion that the prospective Senior Member post links to some of their reports in their Senior Member upgrade request because I determined that it was necessary to do my own search and review of all the prospective Senior Member’s reports.
Some members have suggested that the upgrade be automatic, wherein the upgrade would happen when each member reached the proscribed number of posts, thus eliminating the need for personal review. As much as I would like this myself as it would reduce my workload, it’s not possible. For one thing, the serial spammers would post the required number of “reports”, each containing complete BS, until they had achieved the unrestricted access they desire.
Secondly, the idea behind the Regular/Senior member system is simply to delineate the members who will adhere to the Posting Guidelines and thus do not need to be monitored. This requires a personal review of the member’s posting history. Consider for example, a member who posts 10 reports in the USA section, each of which was in chat room format that I was compelled to edit. He may have 10 posts, but he obviously doesn’t care about the Posting Guidelines, and for the purposes of being upgraded to Senior Member, he has zero reports.
A number of members also took the occasion to post their thoughts about finding volunteer moderators to help with the review process. The idea certainly has merit and will be the subject of a future discussion.
THIS IS THE TEXT OF THE ORIGINAL ISSUE
AS PUBLISHED IN THE FORUM ON 8-1-03:
========================================
SENIOR MEMBERSHIP GUIDELINES
Approximately two months ago, I made a determination that the Senior Member review process was too arbitrary and too time consuming, largely attributable to the absence of clear guidelines upon which to make these decisions. As a result of this realization, Senior Member upgrade reviews have been on a temporary hold pending the development of specific guidelines. I have certainly been aware that there are a number of members who would qualify for Senior Member status under even the most arduous criteria, but I felt it necessary to formalize the process before proceeding.
Upon the completion of this discussion, and the finalization of the specific guidelines for Senior Member upgrades, the Senior Member review and upgrade process will re-commence.
The original idea behind having two categories of membership was born a few months ago after a rash of Serial Spammers began employing the strategy of securing multiple memberships, then spamming the Forum under one name until I detected their activities and banned that user name, only to have them immediately continue using another of their "backup" user names. Approving new members wasn't a sufficient deterrent, and it became apparent that the only real solution was to change the Forum's setup so that new reports would first be moderated prior to being posted in the Forum. This strategy has proven effective in stopping the serial spammers and a lot of other minor miscreants, as witnessed by the the fact that I haven't needed to ban a single member in several months. However, moderating the posts quickly became a daily chore for me, and an occasional aggravation to some members.
As I was contemplating the implementation of this new strategy, it was obvious that I wouldn't need to moderate many of the existing members, whose Forum contributions I had come to know and appreciate. The fact was that I only really needed to moderate the new members, and even then only long enough to ascertain their true intentions (spammer or contributor). Therefore, I needed to create two categories of members, the ones I had to keep an eye on, and the ones I didn't.
Initially, I had considered having member categories named "Moderated" and "Unmoderated", or even "Junior Members" and "Regular Members", but diplomacy dictated that I shouldn't use membership categories that might imply that some members were somehow less important to the Forum that other members. Thus I decided upon the two category names of "Regular" and "Senior" memberships, the only difference being the moderation of posts. At the time, I had no intention of distinguishing between the members based on the caliber of their contributions to the Forum, although by nature the unmoderated Senior Members would also be the Forum's strongest contributors.
Nevertheless, from the many emails I get requesting upgrades to Senior Member status, I have come to realize that Senior Member status is perceived as something more than the simple capability of posting directly into the Forum in real time. Instead, it appears to have become a sort of "vanity plate" by which the more knowledgeable and prolific Forum contributors may serve to distinguish themselves. Okay, that's cool, but it also means, given the apparent significance of the designation, that Senior Member reviews could not be made on an arbitrary or subjective basis. Thus the need for published guidelines and a systemized upgrade procedure.
Initially, I was reluctant to establish specific guidelines for Senior Membership status because I anticipated that the serial spammers out there would fabricate posts specifically designed to meet the criteria, thus coercing me into granting them unmonitored access to the Forum. Believe me, when you know my history of fighting to keep the serial spammers off the Forum, this is a legitimate concern. Nevertheless, for all the reasons enumerated herein, I'm going to publish the guidelines, and I'm also going to rely on the membership to help me monitor the Forum and identify the Serial Spammer moles as they may appear.
With all the caveats out of the way, I will layout my proposed Senior Member guidelines and review procedures, and we can begin the discussion.
PROPOSED SENIOR MEMBERSHIP GUIDELINES
General Requirements:
1. A Regular Member for at least 30 days.
2. A valid Email address (to be maintained for duration of Senior Member status)
3. A User Name that conforms to the Forum's User Name Guidelines. (Note: Your user name can be changed at your request by Admin as necessary to qualify for Senior Member upgrade.)
Number of Posts:
MEET ONE OF THESE FOUR POSSIBILITIES:
1. Ten USA reports, posted on different days, consisting of one to several paragraphs in length, each describing an experience with or review of a specific area, club, commercial establishment, service establishment, service provider, LE activity, legal issue, etc., OR…
2. Five International reports, posted on different days, consisting of one to several paragraphs in lengths, each describing an experience with or a review of a specific area, club, commercial establishment, service establishment, service provider, legal issue, etc., OR…
3. One detailed report on an international country or city, several paragraphs in length, demonstrating intimate knowledge of the area and providing information that obviously reflects the member's personal experience, OR…
4. One detailed international travel report providing a detailed narrative of a trip, including details regarding flights, customs and immigration, currency exchange, transportation, lodging, restaurants, clubs, other commercial establishments, local services, and of course, the girls.
5. Postings that consist primarily of questions, requests for more information, casual short comments, retorts to another member's report, chit-chat, etc. do not count towards these totals.
6. All reports must be in entered with some adherence to the Forum's Posting Guidelines, which essentially mean that they weren't typed in "chat room" style with all lower case lettering and devoid of punctuation.
Quality of Posts:
1. No more than two early posts written in chat room style, after which subsequent reports are written in generally accepted writing style (standard capitalization & punctuation, etc.) I'm assuming that the conscientious members will get the idea after they read my tag line at the bottom of their initial reports indicating that I had to edit the report for capitalization and punctuation.
Please note that writing style or quality of content ARE NOT factors. I don't want to even begin to start evaluating the quality of a member's writing or the accuracy of their reporting, all I'm asking is that members use correct capitalization and punctuation.
2. Reports did not violate the Forum's SPAM Policies (i.e. Did not start or inflame any flame wars, did not demean or denigrate another member, etc.).
3. Reports did not attempt to thwart WSG Posting Policies (deliberately misspelling banned words, etc., referring to competing forums, posting commercial messages, etc.)
Duration:
1. Senior Member status shall be presumed permanent as long as the Senior Member posts a minimum of one report per year.
2. Senior Member status may be rescinded in the event the Member begins to violate the Forum's Posting Policies, doesn't maintain their email address, etc.
3. Senior Member status is always at the sole discretion of the WSG Forum Administrator.
Advantages:
1. Reports by Senior Members are not held for review and moderation by a Forum Moderator, and are instead visible on the Forum immediately upon posting.
2. Senior Members may select a custom Avatar for display adjacent to their reports. (This is a proposed future enhancement to the Forum. Please do not make me crazy asking about this now. Thank You.)
PROPOSED UPGRADE REVIEW PROCEDURE
1. Review Procedure Senior Membership upgrades shall be performed only at the specific request of the Regular Member, said upgrade request to be made by posting a request in the Senior Member Upgrades section of the Site Administration area of the Forum. Said request will begin with a sentence to the effect "I want to be upgraded to Senior Member status.".
Current Senior Members may support or object to the Regular Member's upgrade request by posting a message in the same thread beginning with a sentence to the effect "I support [username]'s Senior Member upgrade." OR "I do not support [username]'s Senior Member upgrade." along with their specific comments.
2. Current Senior Members will be encouraged to review the Regular Member's reports and post their comments and opinions of the Regular Member's Forum contributions.
3. Current Senior Members may also be recruited by the Forum Administrator to review all pending upgrade requests and make specific recommendations.
4. Senior Member reviews shall be conducted periodically by the Forum Administrator, who shall review the comments and the Regular Member's Forum contributions. No specific notice shall be made in the event of a decision, although any member may review his membership status at any time by reviewing any of their own posts.
That's my plan, and here are my questions to the Membership:
1. What does Senior Member status mean to you?
2. Do we need Regular Member/Senior Member designations?
3. Are the criteria reasonable? Are they too restrictive? What would you modify?
4. Is the review procedure reasonable? Is it too cumbersome? What would you modify?
5. How do other forums handle this situation?
Given the obvious backlog of Regular Members who will obviously qualify for Senior Member upgrades, I'm going to initiate the new Forum section for posting the Upgrade Requests now, as opposed to waiting until this discussion is completed. My assumption is that regardless of any modifications to these proposed Senior Member Guidelines and upgrade procedures, I may as well begin allowing interested Regular Members to at least post their names on the list for consideration.
This discussion will be finalized on August 15th, 2003.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.4 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.