Living in China [Archive] - Page 2 - InternationalSexGuide

Shanghai Noon #2

04-30-05, 03:45

That is the question. Sorry for being a little facetious. I just thought I'd wade in. Since I have been in Japan, Thailand and China, I can make a personal comparison. This is just my personal observation so please don't take it as the gospel.

In Japan I never tip. They usually will not take them even if you offered it. I have had waiters chase after me after I left some money in the restaurant, to give the money back.

In Thailand they usually LOVE you to tip, this is how they know you are the rich foreigner (that is also why it is known as LOS Land Of Smiles:-)

In China you usually never tip the taxi drivers (especially in Shanghai, since Shanghainese are known to be frugal, a.k.a. cheap and never ever tip, drivers think you are stupid if you did, of course they will usually take the money:-) In fact, Shanghainese usually ask for a discount from the drivers after 2am since they know that each cab can only give out so many receipts (I think it is like 20 receipts, after which it cannot give any more receipt out). Some drivers will give discounts some will scoff at it and go off.

The only place you might tip in China are the p4p scene since those girls are already used to foreigners leaving them TIPS so they think you are cheap, if you didn’t (or smart and rich, since rich people are usually the worst tippers:-). I usually don't leave any tips since I am cheap:-)

Sh Captain

05-04-05, 15:51

I am pretty sure you are both basically right.

Personally I:

Tip the bell boy 20rmb
Tip whoever has a tip jar (at some bars)

Then once a year at spring festival, I will tip the people who have served me all year. This is pretty customary.

Such As:

My regular foot massage girl, 100rmb
My hairdresser, 200-300rmb
My Maid - 1 month salary
Any other person who has regularly taken care of me over the year.

Sh Captain

Tequila Kid

05-06-05, 06:02

I don't know about other cities, buy my experience in Shenzhen, all Bell Boys expect to get tipped after lugging your bags around. I have stayed at Crowne Plaza, Pavillion, Holiday Inn and Swss Bell Hotel. Even my local Chinese friends tip the bell boys.

No taxi drivers expect a tip.

Sh Captain has the right idea, its right to tip people who give you regular service.

OldAsiaHand

05-06-05, 11:57

I agree that bellboys seem to be the only ones in China that expect a tip. I may also give a pro a small bonus if the service is exceptional. You are expected to tip the KTV girls or do you call this a fee? I never tip taxi drivers since most are out to rip you off anyway. Having said that, I may not insist on full change if the meter is on a fraction of an RMB.

I never see anybody tip in restaurants, bars occassionally but not often. I used to tip my hairdresser, but was told not to. I usually tip the locker boys 10RMB in the saunas and sometimes a legit body masseuse or foot massage girl depending on the establisment and the service.

I also agree with Sammy_T. Small money in the right places in China goes a long way toward better service in the future.

Just my POV.

OAH

Caine

05-06-05, 23:00

I've never thought about tipping for everyday services in China. The taxi drivers don't bother with maos, so they round up or you round down.

Rayman

05-09-05, 12:54

Small money in the right places in China goes a long way toward better service in the future. SPOT ON

Tinybobo1002

05-22-05, 22:31

Tipping is not required in most circumstances in China. The same applies to almost everywhere in the world, except U.S.A or where U.S. influence is evidenced. In U.S.A. and Canada, most restaurants automatically add an outrageous 15 to 25% gratuity to the bill.

In China, very small tipping is expected in sex industry though. The exception is Hong Kong, where 10% tipping is the norm.

If we continue to tip in China, we pay too much. We also impose our habit on them. I would discourage such a practice.

Fuzimiao

05-23-05, 00:59

Having been slung out of a restaurant in Nanjing recently for trying to leave a tip, I now think carefully before tipping, but always round up the taxi fare. (Base is 7 rmb in Nanjing)

Two weeks ago I took my just arrived family out to dinner, back at the appartment my daughter realised she'd left her handbag either in the restaurant or the taxi. Back at the restaurant I found the taxi parked up, the driver was enjoying a bowl of noodles, bought with his tip, at a stall across the street, the bag was still on the back seat. Apart from the usual papers, cards etc, there was 700 Euro in cash in the bag. The driver refused a reward of any kind, and insisted on driving me home again without charge! A 3 rmb tip that paid off big time.

Rickyeoh99

05-25-05, 01:30

Bec26

05-28-05, 06:44

OldAsiaHand

05-28-05, 07:23

Can anyone please point me in the direction of a store that carries deodorant. Dont the Chinese use it? I have been to several places including the Half Moon joints, department stores, and shopping malls. Its starting to get hot here.

Bec26,

Watsons carry deodarant. There is a Henkel (German) brand called "Fa" that comes in several scents. It works fine. I think Carrefour and WalMart have it too.

OAH

Bec26

05-28-05, 11:10

Santa

05-29-05, 08:35

The stink is caused by armpit and genital region bacteria which feed on skin secretions. Try using rubbing alcohol, booze or mouthwash. That's better and cheaper than those deodorants sold by big corporations. Baking powder and baby powder also work.

You can also use these products on her pussy and hairy armpits.

I think most nationalities prefer hot water and soap. I like to have the girl join me for a very long and hot shower before and after sex. It's part of the fun. That's why it's better to take her to your hotel room. Give her stinky snatch a generous splash of good old irish whiskey. That'll kill those bastards! Now she is ready for an irishman's foreplay. "Brace yourself Bridget"!

Joke time. What's the difference between a nun in the confessional and a nun in a bath tub?
The nun in the confessional has her soul full of hope. The nun in the bath tub has her hole full of soap! Hohoho!

Santa

05-30-05, 00:36

The fishy or musty stink that comes out of a girls vagina is called bacterial vaginosis and is caused by too much bacteria that normally lives in the vagina. When excessive, it can be treated with antibiotics.

Douches, creams, or home remedies can make it worse.

Mock A Bee

05-30-05, 04:37

Thank you OAH.

I have been to Carrefour but they dont have it either (must be a French thing). I will try the other places you mentioned. Do you happen to know what the Chinese use? Do they even use deordorant?

Deodorant is not used in China, as well, I have only encountered one fishy snatch in China. Most are sqeaky clean.

Does the very strong social attitude for the love of babies bring with it the very good practice of keeping the vulva and associated plumbing sqeaky clean? Also, if anyone has bothered to notice, and it is hard not to notice, there are literally walls of sanitary napkins in most grocery stores. For some reason sanitary napkins are a big deal in China.

MAB

Bec26

05-30-05, 07:01

I have had on more than one occasion seen a girl use those napkins to wipe their privates after love making session. Couple of time, they tore a hole in the middle of the napkin a placed it on my penis before I penetrated. They used it as a barrier from my pubes and theirs. Anybody experienced this?

On another note:

I love paying for sex. You dont have the constant pain and headache of a significant other calling or nagging all the time. God, I love being morrally and ethically bankrupt! Long live us all!

Tangent

05-30-05, 16:47

there are literally walls of sanitary napkins in most grocery stores. For some reason sanitary napkins are a big deal in China.

MAB

more sanitary pads because they don't use tampons.

A Fun Man

05-31-05, 03:53

It is the first time I heard that the girl will use napkin as the barrier. How many times you have expereiced this?

I have had on more than one occasion seen a girl use those napkins to wipe their privates after love making session. Couple of time, they tore a hole in the middle of the napkin a placed it on my penis before I penetrated. They used it as a barrier from my pubes and theirs. Anybody experienced this?

On another note:

I love paying for sex. You dont have the constant pain and headache of a significant other calling or nagging all the time. God, I love being morrally and ethically bankrupt! Long live us all!

SE Asia Joe

05-31-05, 05:47

Gentlemen,

Been reviewing umpteen pages of prior posts here and on other China threads as a result of a recent discussion a bunch of us guys (who keeps a “special friend” in China) have been having. Unfortunately, I’ve had no luck getting to the bottom of the question at hand, which is:

WHAT EXACTLY ARE THE DANGERS OF KEEPING A MISTRESS IN CHINA – either from LE officers (Guang An) or from bad elements?

Guang An – Most of us are convinced that China’s Guang An:

1. Has unlimited powers – be it forcing entry into private premises, stopping persons entering/leaving such premises, detention of anybody without any cause or even rationality.

2. Are generally corrupt and will thus target us “better off” foreigners (whether White or of Asian and Chinese descent) – either for their own benefit or as a result of instigation by other parties (i.e. unsatisfied Biz partners – true Biz or worse P4P, former girl friends – even neighbors who may resent their building/area being peopled by mistresses and others they consider being inferior to themselves).

3. Are so inept (besides being corrupt) that they have no qualms about victimizing anybody including foreign passport holders (especially of Asian descent) - past instances have proven that a foreign passport is definitely NOT a guarantee that one is ‘insulated/inured’ from their actions. They know that even foreign passport holders cannot afford any scandals (i.e. family, job, public opinion back home etc) and also that well before the time our respective consulates could even hear anything about any incidence, that we would have already “settled” our “transgression” using a suitable “reward”
Bad Elements – the same fears as those for the Guang An.

Does anybody here have an authoritative word of advise to give? Please!

A. We’ve heard multiple bad stories – especially in the Hong Kong Chinese press – about various crimes and mayhem befalling guys who keeps mistresses in China – common criminal action and more worrying, action by the Guang An. Can they and do they regularly really break down doors to haul off mistresses and their Sugar Daddies?

B. Various “Strike Hard” campaigns (crackdowns on various ‘evils’ in China) do come quite regularly in China usually centered around major Chinese holidays like the New year, golden week etc – but we had in the past thought that there is danger only if one is caught in a hotel room or at a SW’s premises/work place. Now we hear that even private premises where we keep our special friends may be dangerous places too

C. What is your advise/opinion to do if such a thing does happen?

Thank you to one and all who would care to reply.

SE Asia Joe

Bec26

06-01-05, 07:29

Fun Man,

I have experienced this many times. I am not sure what city your in, as I am in Shenyang. All the girls here do it.

Cebu Local

06-01-05, 22:32

SE Asia Joe

06-02-05, 09:11

Cebu Local,

Many thanks for your input but unfortunately it is not useful info for my friends and I. Basically, we live in Hong Kong and keep our mistresses in China - and we really do NOT want them anywhere else but in China; Not even to visit Macau or Hong Kong - as we don't really want to expose them too much as to 'opportunities" outside of China (One of our friends keeps his ex-China mistress in Hong Kong now and its costing him over US$6,000 per month!!! Jeez!).

But of course there is a downside to us wanting things the way that they are right now - and it is the danger or at least the sense of danger in doing so. and thus the appeal to you guys for your opinion/advise.

Thanks,

SE Asia Joe

Lao Ma

06-10-05, 06:34

Don't know about the rest of China, but in Beijing most every CRC store has that Fa product (Deordorant) and all of the expat stores like Jenny Lou's carry american anti-perspirants - usually Old Spice.

I have a question too : what's up with all the stores, even the expat ones, keeping their eggs at room temperature ? My body is used to living here, but I don't like salmonella poisoning. My local market carries those organic greeen eggs (very tasty), but last week they took them out of the cooling case and put them in the aisles. Raw eggs need to be refrigerated !

Tinybobo1002

06-16-05, 02:26

SE Asia Joe:

If you question is all about safety, there are three things you have to pay attention to. First, the source of the girl. Try QQ and chat room and dating service, you will be able to find non-pros for GFF.

Second, rent or own a high rise in a well managed housing project, preferably with ISO designation, so you wont be hassled by the police police. The better the housing, the safer the mongering, thats the golden rule.

Third, do not get involved into the girl's life and family in the countryside and never follow them back home for a visit.

Good luck.

Many thanks for your input but unfortunately it is not useful info for my friends and I. Basically, we live in Hong Kong and keep our mistresses in China - and we really do NOT want them anywhere else but in China; Not even to visit Macau or Hong Kong - as we don't really want to expose them too much as to 'opportunities" outside of China (One of our friends keeps his ex-China mistress in Hong Kong now and its costing him over US$6,000 per month!!! Jeez!).

But of course there is a downside to us wanting things the way that they are right now - and it is the danger or at least the sense of danger in doing so. and thus the appeal to you guys for your opinion/advise.

Thanks,

SE Asia Joe[/QUOTE]

Sporadic

06-16-05, 06:43

Lao Ma:
Raw eggs need to be refrigerated ! No, they do not , if they are fresh. Once the egg has been cracked is when salmonella comes into play.

Nice Guy 99

06-27-05, 20:59

I've just returned from a month in China and I have two questions re Internet and keeping in touch with WSG:

1. I mostly used borrowed ADSL for Internet access but I learned there was dial up service available on the 163000 telephone number. What I never did find was anyone I could communicate sufficiently with to figure out how to get a user name and password for this service. Does anyone know? It would be useful when I can't find a DSL to borrow.

2. Many sites, including this one, are blocked. Are there any simple ways around this? You can PM me if it's too sensitive to post.

Lao Ma

06-28-05, 00:38

WSG has never been blocked for me. I have broadband, but it's also worked with wireless hotspots.

OldAsiaHand

06-28-05, 03:53

Nice Guy 99,

Normally, the phone number, the user name and password are all the same for the free dial-up services in China. There are several available depending on where you are located. It's best to consult a local expert which one works best in which locality. Usually, the hotel business center can advise.

I never have a problem with this site in China on dial-up or ADSL at home, in hotels or at friends' places. However, I've heard that some ISP services may be blocked more than others as well as, some controversial political sites.

OAH

I've just returned from a month in China and I have two questions re Internet and keeping in touch with WSG:

1. I mostly used borrowed ADSL for Internet access but I learned there was dial up service available on the 163000 telephone number. What I never did find was anyone I could communicate sufficiently with to figure out how to get a user name and password for this service. Does anyone know? It would be useful when I can't find a DSL to borrow.

2. Many sites, including this one, are blocked. Are there any simple ways around this? You can PM me if it's too sensitive to post.

Nice Guy 99

06-29-05, 07:29

Normally, the phone number, the user name and password are all the same for the free dial-up services in China. There are several available depending on where you are located. It's best to consult a local expert which one works best in which locality. Usually, the hotel business center can advise.
OAH

OAH and LM, thanks for your inputs.

FYI, the area I was in is Chongqing. I never set foot in a hotel.

I was unable to find a local computer expert who could (or was willing) to speak English with me. My Mandarin is VERY limited at this point and, although my fiance speaks excellent English, she lacks computer vocabulary, which seems to be a show stopper. I travel all over the world and I was actually surprised how difficult it was to deal with language in CKG.

The 163000 dial up worked just fine from the phone in my rented apartment up to the point where it asked for user name and password. OAH, I did hear that the user name and pass was the number but when I entered 163000 in those two fields it was not accepted. Am I missing something simple here?

My borrowed ADSL was in another apartment in CKG. The resident thought the ISP is China Telecom. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that because WSG would never load, it was blocked. Is this the way blocking generally manifests itself or does a big BLOCKED page come up? WSG is the only page that exhibited this no load behavior. I know the URL was correct etc because I was using my laptop.

I also bought a new apartment while I was there (they are dirt cheap in CKG) and am in the process of finishing it. We are putting in a little ethernet LAN and will connect it to ADSL. After my fiance gets her US visa and we get married we plan to spend a month or two each year in CKG (about all I can stand given the air polution) and the rest of the year in the US. I'm just starting on the K1 visa process, it seems like it will be a night mare, and I guess it may take 9-12 months if there are no major glitches. I did a little looking to try to find someone in Guangzhou who can help with/check my fiance's paperwork before she goes for her interview (many months from now). Do such people exist? Any recommendations?

OldAsiaHand

06-29-05, 08:32

just starting on the K1 visa process, it seems like it will be a night mare, and I guess it may take 9-12 months if there are no major glitches. I did a little looking to try to find someone in Guangzhou who can help with/check my fiance's paperwork before she goes for her interview (many months from now). Do such people exist? Any recommendations?

Nice Guy:

There are some thieves (prey on fear) in Guangzhou that help to prepare the paperwork. I am not really sure they are worth what they charge for the service. Some of them have offices on Samian Island near the US Consulate. You can probably check the paperwork yourself just as well. The key seems to be to demonstrate the authenticity of your relationship and true intention to marry e.g. pictures taken together over a period of time, evidence of financial support, etc. There are so many scams going on out there and the US visa officers are not stupid. Current offers for marriage are as high as 65k USD.

Just my POV.

OAH

P.S. I never used 163000; 163, 16300, 169, 98169 all worked for me in different places.

Travel Dog

06-30-05, 05:02

nice guy
i did a k-1 visa for my wife and it took over 1 year. there are some great web sites dedicated to just this. i will pm a few to you. i don't advise you get any help for the touts arond the embasy. they are all a rip off. they guarantee anything to get your money and they don't speed up the process. good luck
td

Edonist

07-22-05, 10:54

I know this is slightly off-subject but whenever I travel to China on Business I try to stock up on cheap DVD's.

Can anyone direct me to some well stocked shops to go in Beijing and Shanghai?

ps. There are a lot of shopping bargains to be had in China so I was thinking of starting a new thread "Shopping in China" but for some reason I am not authorised. maybe someone else wants to try?

Thanks for feedback on the above.

Bull Dozer

07-22-05, 23:22

Edonist
US customs are screening for pirated Hollywood movies, could be big trouble if caught, any other movies & songs are OK as far as I know, US customs don't care, only US movies & some Music artists. Just my 2 cents.

GJ

I know this is slightly off-subject but whenever I travel to China on Business I try to stock up on cheap DVD's.

Can anyone direct me to some well stocked shops to go in Beijing and Shanghai?

ps. There are a lot of shopping bargains to be had in China so I was thinking of starting a new thread "Shopping in China" but for some reason I am not authorised. maybe someone else wants to try?

Thanks for feedback on the above.

Weelock

07-23-05, 01:22

I just came back and got a few DVD's in Southern China. The cost was 5RMB each, cheap. Great deal for brand new release movies. You can TRY to bring them back. But after reading the previous posting from "Go Joe", that US Customs was checking now, I don't know. I don't think there is a fine in the USA if caught. Suggest you removing the covers from the DVD's. And for a FEW DVD's, I don't think they care. They might just take it away. I know they will take away plants (fruits), dried beef, and banned animal stuff yet there is no fine. I recall a small dog, going around and checking people for plants and fruits at US Customs. Customs didn't stop me and I just passed thru. Sorry if I confused you more.

NO for drugs, but that's another store. It's jail time and fine for sure.

Warning in China, For X-rate porn stuff, like DVD, magazines, and videos, NO. When going through major bus, train, or airports, you bags will be scanned. If caught, the fine is a lot. I believe it's over 5,000RMB. Sorry I don't know the exact amount.

Weelock

Nice Guy 99

07-23-05, 08:32

I know they will take away plants (fruits), dried beef, and banned animal stuff yet there is no fine.
Weelock

I just came back from China a couple of weeks ago and declared food on my customs form. When I was asked, at LAX, what this food was I mentioned, inter alia, dried beef and then stated that everything was sealed in commercial packages ... that seemed to be the magic phrase and they waved me through.

Santa

07-23-05, 08:45

as i reported before, all the hollywood producers are investing hundreds of millions of dollars and signing joint-venture contracts to produce movies in china. the agreement calls for a serious crackdown on piracy.

leaping tiger crouching dragon, or whatever that stupid thing was called, was the highest earning foriegn movie ever made, grossing $125,000,000. hollywood believes there is "gold in them thar hills".

i think we should expect pirated movies to become harder to find, fines and confirep001ions to become more common.

however, i agree, carrying small quantities without the sleeves should not be a problem. i took home about 20 on my last trip.

a shopping thread would be nice. for example, where can i buy pirated, perfumed, kinky and silky erotic knickers, with red flag and gold star motif? i'd look good in them!

Santa

07-23-05, 17:04

What's the difference between erotic sex and kinky sex?

Erotic sex is when you use a feather.

Kinky sex is when you use the whole chicken!

Csun213

07-24-05, 04:44

Long CU

07-24-05, 05:24

I have bought a bicycle, only 400rmb but look very nice.

Can I fold it and carry it back thru Customs of China and USA no problem?

I also have a Japan porn dvd (only 1), that I carried all over China, so far, no problem

Weelock

07-24-05, 10:26

Long CU,

China and US Customs don’t care on the size of your items, as long as you can carry it traveling. It’s the airlines. You might have to take it apart or pay extra for size ( ie bike). Luckily it doesn't weight that much. I don’t think it’s worth it for a $48US bike. You should call your airline.

My last trip, I was traveling around a lot. I was checked about 5 times around Southern China. I had in hand about 8 movies ( DVD) and 10 computer software CD, no problem yet also. Traveling on Chinese holiday's might be a problem because they usually check more.

Again, for porn stuff, I don’t think it’s worth it because of the possible LARGE fine. I believe China is very strict on porn stuff. Heard they might play ithe DVD inside to check it out.

Edonist

07-27-05, 10:47

Aside from the customs issue, I'd like to ask where in Beijing or Shanghai would be the best place to buy the DVD's?

Can anybody out there give me some good directions as I will only have a few hours free time in each city.

thanks, Edonist

Lao Ma

07-28-05, 05:11

Asking where the best place to buy DVD's is sort of like asking where the best xiaomaibu is - there have to be at least hundreds, if not thousands, of shops all over Beijing. Where are you going to be ? What part of town ? Will you be by GuoMao - China World ? then just go to the subway entrance downstairs. Actually most every subway station has shops in or around the entrance - some are even inside the station itself.

Since I live near Dongzhimenwei, I usually go to a shop just east of Oriental Kenzo, on the south side of the street. DVD's and CD's. But there are easily 10 vendors on the side streets within a 10 minute walk of there.

Edonist

07-28-05, 14:43

I will be staying in the Jianguo hotel in Jianguomengway near the silk market.

Any well stocked shops near there??? Shops which might have stuff besides the 10 most popular US DVD's?

thanks,

Edonist

Rickyeoh99

07-29-05, 01:41

I always bring back some pirated DVDs when I travel to China since they are very cheap and never had any problem with customs. I always take them out of the case and put them in a DVD carrying case. It is kind of funny because pirated U.S. Movies are everywhere however you can not find pirated Chinese movies. My parents are Chinese and wants to watch the Chinese soaps and they are all orginals and costs more than the pirated U.S. movies.Csun,

There are pirated Chinese movies and series available. I only buys Chinese movies cuz I don't have time to watch TV series. You have to ask the shop assistants. I just bought some in SZ recently. They are not display openly nowadays.

Big Ears

07-29-05, 02:35

(snip) It is kind of funny because pirated U.S. Movies are everywhere however you can not find pirated Chinese movies. My parents are Chinese and wants to watch the Chinese soaps and they are all orginals and costs more than the pirated U.S. movies.Basically ..... it's Ok to screw the Yanks by stealing their Intellectual Property but we ain't gonna screw our brothers.

Mind you, IMHO, anybody (whatever nationality) who buys PIRATED DVDs CDs etc is nothing better than a thief - pure and simple - a thief. No better than someone who takes a hoe then runs off without paying.

Santa

07-29-05, 08:38

Big Ears is totally correct, when we buy pirated products we are stealing someones property rights. Also, when the Chinese government allows such behavior, but protects their own property rights, they are thieves and hypocrits.

However, I will probably continue to buy pirated goods when I have the opportunity, without feelings of shame. Why? I don't know, because they are cheap I guess. However, I would never cheat a girl or "hoe" out of her wages. Never! Even if the service was crap. Why? For me, that would be very immoral.

Ethics and morality is relative and individualistic. What is right or wrong was not written in heaven, as religious people believe. It varies from place to place, culture to culture, and from individual to individual.

When a majority agrees on a moral issue it becomes the "rule of common law". When we vote on a moral issue and get a documented majority consensus, it becomes "rule of law".

Big Ears believes buying and selling pirated goods is immoral! He is right and I agree. But, and no disrespect to our friend Big Ears intended, I just couldn't give a damn. I'll buy them anyway.

Now could someone please tell me where to buy those knock-off red knickers, with gold stars and white lace, size XXXL. Santa would look good in them!

Sammy_T

07-29-05, 10:37

the following was taken from: http://wikisource.org/wiki/free_culture_(pirates)

the film industry of hollywood was built by fleeing pirates. creators and directors migrated from the east coast to california in the early twentieth century in part to escape controls that patents granted the inventor of filmmaking, thomas edison. these controls were exercised through a monopoly "trust," the motion pictures patents company, and were based on thomas edison's creative property--patents. edison formed the mppc to exercise the rights this creative property gave him, and the mppc was serious about the control it demanded. as one commentator tells one part of the story,

a january 1909 deadline was set for all companies to comply with the license. by february, unlicensed outlaws, who referred to themselves as independents protested the trust and carried on business without submitting to the edison monopoly. in the summer of 1909 the independent movement was in full-swing, with producers and theater owners using illegal equipment and imported film stock to create their own underground market.

with the country experiencing a tremendous expansion in the number of nickelodeons, the patents company reacted to the independent movement by forming a strong-arm subsidiary known as the general film company to block the entry of non-licensed independents. with coercive tactics that have become legendary, general film confirep001ed unlicensed equipment, discontinued product supply to theaters which showed unlicensed films, and effectively monopolized distribution with the acquisition of all u.s. film exchanges, except for the one owned by the independent william fox who defied the trust even after his license was revoked.

the napsters of those days, the "independents," were companies like fox. and no less than today, these independents were vigorously resisted. "shooting was disrupted by machinery stolen, and 'accidents' resulting in loss of negatives, equipment, buildings and sometimes life and limb frequently occurred." that led the independents to flee the east coast. california was remote enough from edison's reach that film- makers there could pirate his inventions without fear of the law.

of course, california grew quickly, and the effective enforcement of federal law eventually spread west. but because patents grant the patent holder a truly "limited" monopoly (just seventeen years at that time), by the time enough federal marshals appeared, the patents had expired.

a new industry had been born, in part from the piracy of edison's creative property.

--------------------------
in sammy's humble opinion an industry that is based upon ip theft has no right to gripe about it.

Albert Punter

07-29-05, 13:15

I found this article interesting

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-07/27/content_3272966.htm

Santa

07-30-05, 03:19

Here are a few movies to watch out for.

From the director Wong Kai-Wai, the master of the erotic.

1. In The Mood For Love. Very erotic.
2. 2046 This lusty movie opens next week in New York.
3. The Lady From Shanghai. Will be made next year.

Wong's uncle owned a "nightclub" in Hong Kong where customers rented "dancing girls".

Also, opening this week in New York, and maybe coming to a theatre near you, Balzac and The Little Chinese Seamstress. Unfortuntely, the sale of the movie is illegal in China. The writer and director is chinese born Dai Sijie, who now lives in Paris.

Dai Sijie's masterpiece is a tender adaptation of his autobiographical novel of the same name.

Set during the Cultural Revolution, two educated young men are sent to a tiny mountain village for a program of "re-education" that includes hauling sewerage up a steep rocky path.

The seamstress develops a bond with one of the men, which is nudged in the direction of romance by their discovery of a cache of forbidden foreign books.

Language. Combination of chinese and french.

Tequila Kid

08-01-05, 18:59

Big Ears

08-02-05, 01:08

What is the process for getting a drivers license in China. I am often in Shenzhen and occasionally have opportunity to drive a friends car.

Is a temporary or visitors license available in Shenzhen? How/where do I get one?

Must I take a driving test?
note - I can speak a little mandarin, but cannot read or write mandarin.

Appreciate any advice from board members.

TKIf you are a "Permanent Resident" of Hong Kong with a HK Driving Licence over 1 year you can get a China Driving Licence - need to take a medical and a written test (that was a laugh but another story). Need also a China address to use. This gives you a full China Licence with no restrictions. I have this and am one of few westerners to have such - many HK Chinese have of course.

Other than that you must be an oficially recognised "Ex-Pat" to get a China Driving Licence. Means basically you will need to work for a largish foreign company. This will allow you to drive "Ex-Pat" cars - those with black number plates.

Regards

Big ears

PS. One of my "prides" - that I can do what no current F1 driver can do in a car ....... drive legally in China!

Mock A Bee

08-02-05, 01:40

What is the process for getting a drivers license in China. I am often in Shenzhen and occasionally have opportunity to drive a friends car.

Is a temporary or visitors license available in Shenzhen? How/where do I get one?

Must I take a driving test?
note - I can speak a little mandarin, but cannot read or write mandarin.

Appreciate any advice from board members.

TK

I have driven in China a few times. However if you only drive occasionally and you drive carefully so you don't give the police an opportunity to pull you over or get into an accident, I wouldn't bother getting a license.

I understand the Chinese system does not have a way of accepting proper payment for traffic infractions from foreigners. I have heard of cases where foreigners want to pay their fines, but are turned away because of this.

If you are pulled over and can only speak a little Mandarin, just be pleasant and the police officer will most likely get frustrated and tell you to move on.

A cop pulled me over while I was riding a bike, but got frustrated because I didn't bother to speak Mandarin with him. In a huff he told me to move on.

MAB

Kunshan

08-02-05, 01:41

I am not sure if Shenzhen has a different procudure for foreigners to get a local drivers licence (it may).

In other parts of China you just need to do the following;
1. Get the forms (licence and health check) from the PSB Driving Licence section, you will also need to have heaps of photos ready, I think the cops need about 6-12 pics.
2. Fill in the form, you will have to get a health check from a hospital (I had my driver get the test done without me), get your home licence translated.
4. Hand in all your forms, Residence Card and home country drivers licence(and the official translation) to the part of the PSB that deals with drivers licences.
and if you have been driving for more than 3 years at home you only need to pass a written test (Chinese or in English).
If you have less then three years driving time at home then you will also need to do a practical driving exam.
5. Done

Then get ready for some fun time on China's roads!

Tequila Kid

08-02-05, 02:36

Changshu,
Thanks for the info, one question. I will need "residence card" for Shenzhen? or [I live in US, but visit China about every month].

Another question, what is "PSB"? The local government authority?

MAB,
I have same thoughts as you, but my friend would feel better if I had license.

TK

OldAsiaHand

08-02-05, 02:44

Tequila Kid,

As is the case with most things in China, you can just pay money. There is a girl advertising this service just outside the Huang Gang border on the China side. Just take a right and walk all the way down just before the restrooms and you will find her. I think it costs around 2,000 RMB. I paid 1,700 for mine in GZ; valid for 8 years.

However, as MAB says, the chances of getting stopped are very small and if you just play pleasant and stupid, they would probably let you go. Do not give them your driving license though. It can be difficult to get it back once they take it away. You will have to go to the station to get it.

OAH

OldAsiaHand

08-02-05, 02:56

Nice Guy 99

08-02-05, 07:02

Heheheh ... I gotta chime in on this one.

My prospective brother-in-law (with a VERY new driver's license) rented a van on my last long trip to China (June) and took a bunch of us out in the countryside for a little tour. Up and down mountains on narrow roads he finally ran into a big gate across a very narrow very steep road ... tried to do a Y turn to get reversed, killed the engine, everyone got out of the van (fear factor) and he pleaded with me to drive.

I got the van reversed, family piled in, down the mountain we went until we came to more driver friendly roads where I insisted he drive ... as, of course, I didn't have a license. There ensued a 15 minute discussion which was well beyond my Mandarin, and their English, where they urged me to drive all the way back to the center of one of the eight largest cities in China. I refused, picturing myself in a Chinese cell for God knows what.

In retrospect I will remember the words of the respected OAH and not be so shy next time.

Sorry ... off topic ... nothing to do with mongering ... does anyone know where to buy cheese??? :D

Hoeman

08-08-05, 09:18

Changshu,

Another question, what is "PSB"? The local government authority?

TKPSB stands for Public Security Bureau. That's "Gong An" in Mandarin.

Hoeman.

Fast Eddie 48

08-13-05, 23:05

Public transportation is so cheap in China, I sure don't want to have a car in China.

Parking space is another problem.

I am in US now have 2 car, with fuel price the last 4 yr gone up %250, everone in US is saying China, with all the new cars, is driving the fuel price up.

I am thinking about moving to China.

Fast Eddie 48

Bob Builder

08-14-05, 20:58

Fast Edidie,

Are you sure that the increased price of fuel in the US has nothing to do with a small international incident called the "Gulf War"?

Prince Leo

08-17-05, 02:32

For those in the US who say that China is driving up the the fuel price, do they know what country uses the most fuel in the world and has the most cars. Hmmm...that would be the US. Hope that they are not shocked to hear that.

Public transportation is so cheap in China, I sure don't want to have a car in China.

Parking space is another problem.

I am in US now have 2 car, with fuel price the last 4 yr gone up %250, everone in US is saying China, with all the new cars, is driving the fuel price up.

I am thinking about moving to China.

Fast Eddie 48

Sino View

08-17-05, 03:42

I am in US now have 2 car, with fuel price the last 4 yr gone up %250, everone in US is saying China, with all the new cars, is driving the fuel price up.

I am thinking about moving to China.

Fast Eddie 48Fuel in China has got up temendously too.

Worse still, over recent weeks there seem a shortage in many petrol stations. Hauling? Not sure. But long Q can be seen in everywhere.

China is not space, from this oil crisis.

Tangent

08-17-05, 15:04

Except for Indonesia, Middle Eastern countries and other oil exporters, China has the lowest gasoline prices around. The government limits the price on gas (and it is less than US$2 a gallon now). That is why there are fuel shortages in some cities (at least in Shenzhen) recently. The fuel companies are sending a signal to the government that they would rather sell their oil elsewhere for more money if the country is going to have caps. Fuel caps are basically a subsidy here for the people who are rich enough to own cars (while in the US, where even the poor own caps, a fuel cap may proportionally benefit some of the poor). energy comsumption aside, China has got to do what it can to reduce the use of private cars. At these population densities, traffic would be impossible--as is already occurring in some cities. For China, the US and most other countries it becomes a national security issue as well. Despite popular perception, the US is far from the only country that has oil mixed up in foreign relations. However, the US and Australia have the longest way to improve oil consumption patterns.

Sorry for my rant.

Fast Eddie 48

08-18-05, 02:53

For those in the US who say that China is driving up the the fuel price, do they know what country uses the most fuel in the world and has the most cars. Hmmm...that would be the US. Hope that they are not shocked to hear that.Prince Leo,

I do agree with you US small population is using about 20% of the world fuel no body here is using public transportations , I guess we need to wake up if gas go up to $ 6.00 a gal like in europe. I think we should all move to china and spend more time with the girl in bed instead of driving in the US.

fast eddie 48

OldAsiaHand

08-18-05, 15:32

I don't give a shit what I have to pay for it, but waiting in line for 2 hours for only 100 RMB worth is a real pain in the ass for me presently. I just hope they resolve the shortage, hoarding, caps, or whatever it is soon.

Just my POV.

OAH

Mac 2

08-19-05, 00:29

OAH,

The gas situation in GZ is back to normal since yesterday.

You shouldn't wait longer than 3 minutes.

Just filled up with 98 in panyu yesterday evening.

If you still have trouble, let me know and I will give you some locations of some smaller gas stations in the Pazhou area.

They never run out of gas as not many people know this place.

Just offering my help.

Mac 2

OldAsiaHand

08-19-05, 11:51

Fast Eddie 48

08-26-05, 21:09

Mac 2,

Thanks. I just filled up with 97 at the Sinopec on the Huanan Expressway coming back from Pazhou to Panyu this afternoon without a wait, as well. I sure hope it stays normal from now on.

OAH

P.S. Sounds like you stay in the same area as I do. PM me if you want to hook-up for hunting some day.To OAH,

I just fill my car in California. $ 2.80 a gallon, $ 30.00 USD for a fill up, but no line.

I got my ticket to China yesterday. Will arrive at Shenzhen around Sep 20 for a few days before flying to Shanghai. I will try to call you.

Fast Eddie 48

Csun213

08-27-05, 20:14

To OAH,

I just fill my car in California. $ 2.80 a gallon, $ 30.00 USD for a fill up, but no line.

I got my ticket to China yesterday. Will arrive at Shenzhen around Sep 20 for a few days before flying to Shanghai. I will try to call you.

Fast Eddie 48

You must have a small tank. I am also in CA and it costs me over $50 USD for a fill up. Have fun in Shenzhen, I think you will have a great time if you get to hook up with OAH. OAH is a great guy to hang around with because he knows just about all the places where the girls are located.

OldAsiaHand

08-28-05, 04:41

You must have a small tank. I am also in CA and it costs me over $50 USD for a fill up. Have fun in Shenzhen, I think you will have a great time if you get to hook up with OAH. OAH is a great guy to hang around with because he knows just about all the places where the girls are located.

Although the situation in Guangzhou is still OK, I noticed some lines in Shenzhen this week. Best to arrive with enough gas to avoid the waiting.

Csun, thanks for the compliment.

Fast Eddie, Just give me a call.

OAH

Intransit

08-28-05, 18:14

1. stop fucking staring at me.

2. don't tell me that my chinese is good. you mean it as an insult, and i take it as such. i know this because every moron who gets in a taxi and says "ni hao" is told how great his chinese is. mandarin is neither genetic nor difficult. it is not some divine speech bestowed upon the chinese nation, impenetrable to those who do not meet specific ethnic requirements. if 650 million rank peasants can speak it, it can't be that hard.

3. the same is true with chopsticks, and it is really not interesting that i am able to use them.

4. spitting is exceptionally disgusting and exceptionally rude.

5. stop trying to look at my penis while you're standing at the urinal next to mine. it's bigger than yours, but you knew that already.

6. there's no need to state that i'm a foreigner. you're an idiot, but i didn't say it out loud as soon as i laid eyes on you.

7. if you're a taxi driver, try to learn one or two roads or place names in the city where you drive. i couldn't get away with being a doctor and not knowing where the liver is, and neither can you. and by the way, it's your responsibility to have change, not mine.

8. unless we've known each other for at least five years, the salutations "pengyou (friend)" and "ge men'r (buddy)" don't apply. you wouldn't dare say that to another chinese man you don't know, so don't try it with me. let's start with "sir" and work up.

9. the war with japan ended 60 years ago. you won. now get over it.

10. this country's going to hold an olympics in less than three years. you're not ready. you're not even close. think about that for a while.

DayNight

08-29-05, 03:06

Intrasit

Do you have details on the olympics? Will there be other countries participating?

I heard that an EU country is considered for a 'silver medal' if they end the 1989 imposed weapons embargo?

Member #3434

08-29-05, 12:58

Exactly!

Cronin

08-29-05, 13:26

Intransit,

Damn, I spend way too much time in that state of mind. I try to avoid it, but sometimes it gets the best of me.

I can't deal with the staring either, it's an invasion of privacy and I resent it. Basically, you can never be alone with your own thoughts anywhere here.

It's not like they haven't seen a white guy before, they're on TV and Movies everywhere. They examine every hair on my body, every inch of my clothes, shoes, what I bought. They'll turn around and walk backwards to keep staring at me. If one person in a group spots me, they will nudge their friends so they can ALL stare at me.

My Chinese friends think this is funny when I complain about it. They have no idea. I might have thought it was no big deal too, if I hadn't experienced it. It seems minor, but it's like you're in some weird nightmare that never ends.

And the net effect is that I lose respect for the Chinese. I am totally boring to look at, just a frumpy old guy. The fact that so many can be so unsophisticated as to consider me incredibly fascinating is truly pathetic.

I've also witnessed them staring at a disabled person or someone disfigured in some horrible way. They are just fucking rude, there's no way around it. I remember my mother chastising me about staring at people when I was 5 years old. Apparently, teaching kids to be polite is not the Chinese way. How does it make the disabled person feel to be stared at? The Chinese don't fucking give a shit.

A corallary to this shit is their endless amusement with saying "Hello" in that taunting, comical voice. They won't say hello to your face, I would be quite pleased at that. No, they wait until they have finished staring at you, then when you're about 10 feet away, they'll say "Helloooo" to your back and all their friends will laugh. This happens to me 3 or 4 times a day if I'm walking in GZ.

Now, let's try and imagine sitting at a cafe in LA and some foreign guy walks by and we wait till he goes by and then taunt him with "Bon Jooooor", or some such shit. What kind of hapless fucks would we be? It doesn't matter how much I love China and the Chinese, and I really do, they can be real slime.

And don't get me started on them cutting in line ahead of me. I will end up punching somebody one day, I know it. And I've never punched anyone in my life.

Having said all that, I never want to leave this paradise. This shit is minor compared to enduring a nation of spiky haired assholes in oversize knobby tire 4x4s, giving me the finger from behind wrap around sunglasses.

Cronin

Intransit

08-29-05, 13:48

Well, what can I say. I am indeed leaving but not for a few more years.

DayNight, there might be other countries participating at the Olympics, but if any nation other than China wins a medal, the crowd is allowed to riot and assault the athletes from the winning nation, especially if it's Japan.

China's been good to me. I think I've been good to China. But enough is enough.

Rayzor

08-29-05, 14:53

Intransit/Cronin,

Stares? You're White and you are stared at?

Just imagine the stares if you were Black like me?

It doesn't bother me at all. I just acknowledge the stares with a knod of the head, a wave, or a wink of the eye if it's a cute female.

Rayzor

Bob Churn

08-29-05, 15:44

Having listen to all the shits..... the only things is.... take it or leave it. That's cultural different and it bound to be a different.

Bob Churn

08-29-05, 15:52

Also most of the time dont always judge somethings from the your own perspective, be objective and not subjective.

Are you really superior than others, not really before you learn how to respect others.

St Germain

08-30-05, 07:16

I've learned to ignore the staring. If you think the staring is bad these days, try 10 years ago.

I've learned to ignore the spitting, unless I step in it. Just don't think about it.

I've learned to ignore the silly hellooooos from the migrant workers. Or I hellooooo them back with an even more ridiculous accent. They're just having fun, no ill will intended.

I've learned to ignore the "your Chinese is so good, even better than mine" crap. The dialogue is always the same, so my mouth just goes on autopilot: "xie xie...from USA...x years in China...yes I love Chinese food" etc etc. Meantime my mind stays free to think of other things.

And I've learned not to mind the cutting in line. I just edge in a shoulder or an arm in the McDonald's line and that usually blocks them out.

This is all just part of the background landscape.

But there is one thing that still royally pisses me off every time. That's when I'm walking with a gf or female friend (that I might not even be banging), and random local men start giving her shit, e.g. "Hey, xiaojie, how much USD do you make on him?" and "look at the jia yangguizi!"* and "oh, look at her, she's chi yangfan!"** Cowardly lowlife bastards don't have the balls to accost the foreigner but instead pick on the local girl. Those guys are the real slime.

Count

*fake foreign devil
**eating foreign rice

Blacklisted

08-30-05, 09:04

Something to look forward to when I move to Shanghai!

I was wondering when the novelty would wear off, but as you say Cronin, it beats the shit out of putting up with fat, obnoxious 'America is the centre of the universe' wankers any day of the week.

Oh, and the foods fucking awesome too!

I know I'll end up missing Australia, but really, you get fucking bored in your own country, we're just licky we have the socioeconomic ability to mix it up a bit!

That open letter was hilarious though.

Please continue!

Tinybobo1002

08-30-05, 13:05

Intransit, one more thing I would like to add.

I wish the girls (non pros) would stop sucking and fucking us like crazy and for free, because we are from North America. Their so doing is due to their ignorance of the outside world. Chinese is not ready to hold the Olympics, but when they are, these freebies will disappear.

Those were the days when sex was cheap in Wanchai, Hong kong, Taipei, Taiwan and Seoul, Korea.

Don't forget we are dealing with a third world country. If we don't feel comfort with it or in it, leave. Personally, I would never go to Middle East, Malaysia or Indonesia for a reason.

LexLuther

08-30-05, 14:20

Cronin et al,

Interesting thoughts you guys have expressed on differences between Chinese and Western (or more properly American) culture and life. I think the real issue is that the Chinese don't understand the American notion of the individual. This is due to a number of historical factors. One is that China is a nation of 1.6 billion (approx) souls living cheek by jowel in a crowded land. Another factor has to be that China, like a lot of Asian countries, is more a conglomerate of villages than it is a modern nation like the U.S. People are not used to the mobility and the anonymity that comes with it as we are. They think of themselves as part of a village where people know everything about you from the time you are born until you die. Whereas in the U.S., this way of life has been gone for over a century.

Another factor is communism which considers the individual as subordinate to the society as a whole. This concept is 180 degrees from our way of life. In our culture, we foster the myth of the sovereignty of the individual. That's why our government does not believe it has a responsibility to educate people and to provide them with health care. It's all about the individual. In America, the individual is seen as having the right to advance himself no matter how many people he has to step on to do it. We love the guy who rises from nothing to obscene wealth.

Communism is now dead or dying in China and in the next generation you will see individuals accumulating vast amounts of wealth undreamed of in the past. But the society as a whole will not understand the concept of the individual for some time to come. There are just to many people in China and they need to get away from their village roots in order for this to happen.

Just Lex's musings.

Lex

Blacklisted

08-30-05, 14:25

Can't wait to see the response (taking notes)

Cronin et al,

Interesting thoughts you guys have expressed on differences between Chinese and Western (or more properly American) culture and life. I think the real issue is that the Chinese don't understand the American notion of the individual. This is due to a number of historical factors. One is that China is a nation of 1.6 billion (approx) souls living cheek by jowel in a crowded land. Another factor has to be that China, like a lot of Asian countries, is more a conglomerate of villages than it is a modern nation like the U.S. People are not used to the mobility and the anonymity that comes with it as we are. They think of themselves as part of a village where people know everything about you from the time you are born until you die. Whereas in the U.S., this way of life has been gone for over a century.

Another factor is communism which considers the individual as subordinate to the society as a whole. This concept is 180 degrees from our way of life. In our culture, we foster the myth of the sovereignty of the individual. That's why our government does not believe it has a responsibility to educate people and to provide them with health care. It's all about the individual. In America, the individual is seen as having the right to advance himself no matter how many people he has to step on to do it. We love the guy who rises from nothing to obscene wealth.

Communism is now dead or dying in China and in the next generation you will see individuals accumulating vast amounts of wealth undreamed of in the past. But the society as a whole will not understand the concept of the individual for some time to come. There are just to many people in China and they need to get away from their village roots in order for this to happen.

Just Lex's musings.

Lex

OldAsiaHand

08-30-05, 15:45

Gentlemen,

After 10+ years, I still get irritated a bit with all that petty shit mentioned, but much less than I did 10 years ago. I found that getting pissed off at something you cannot do anything to change for the time being, just makes me more anxious and gives me ulcers. I just ignore the stares and hellooooos. Sometimes I will ask them what they are looking at, or if they have ever seen a foreigner before or, if Hello is the only English word they know. Other times, I will pretend not to understand Hello and ask them what they are trying to say.

Having said that, I will not let anyone cut in front of me without saying something about it or blocking the way. It is much more dangerous when they cut in front of you on the road. I find myself playing the same aggressive offensive game behind the wheel which I know is not good.

The shit Count G mentions happens. Many Chinese men do not want us fucking their women for whatever reason, jealousy, racism, who knows what?

IMHO, most of what has been mentioned is from uneducated, classless people who do not know any better. These sort of people exist in all societies. The middle/upper class, educated, Chinese people have manners and know how to behave around foreigners.

Just my POV.

OAH

Bill Lee

08-30-05, 16:16

They're call rednecks in the states or just plain ignorant MFs. Yes. They are everywhere and there's nothing we can do about it. Aside from that, there are whites, blacks and puerto ricans in the states that makes fun of Chinese too. So I guess it evens out in the long run. And there are the Chinese that makes fun of how the Vietnamese talk.

BTW, I was taught not to stare at people and not to get involved with any disputes I see in the street. So you can be lying and dying on the street and I will keep walking by.

Bill

Gentlemen,
IMHO, most of what has been mentioned is from uneducated, classless people who do not know any better. These sort of people exist in all societies. The middle/upper class, educated, Chinese people have manners and know how to behave around foreigners.

Just my POV.

OAH

Bob Builder

08-30-05, 16:47

You now have a taste of what any average asian gets every day in the west. So not so sweet being the minority is it? Does this give you a better understanding of racism?

Chinese guy out with a white girl - you would get castrated for something like that in certain states. Don't tell me you have never been out with your buddies and seen a black / asian guy with a hot white chick and thought wtf is wrong with her?

Taxi driver does understand the language or know where anything is - hands up whose been to New York?

Stared at and having hello called at you by an inbreed peasant from the far reaches of Sichaun. What if you were driving around Louisiana and a redneck called you a "yankee"? Are all you guys such sensitive pussies? I have been in Leicester Square in London watching soccer holigans getting out of the tube and beating up the first dark person they see with out warning. That would [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) me off, not a moron shouting out hello.

No one ever call you "pal" or "buddy"?

And wtf is this bs about tipping 10% + of the bill. Why don't restaurants pay thier staff instead of hiring professional beggars in the US? And no, it isn't an incentive for better service.

And cutting in line? Last sucker to do that to me at Lo Wu had me jump up and down on their lugguage until what was inside looked like a jigsaw puzzle.

Considering what I hear some guys P4P, I wish you would all leave the niunius alone as you are driving up the price. Just like those freaking Taiwanese and Japs. The can fuck off too!

Suck it in and live with it because for rmb150 you can get BBBJCIM from 10s of 1,000s sweet young pussies fresh from the farm every day? WTF does that buy you back home? A x-rated porno from Blockbuster and a tube of hand lotion.

Sorry guys as I am ROFLOL. So whose going to be in Sha Tsui on Saturday?

Csun213

08-30-05, 19:27

I do understand what you guys are saying and I have spend some time with some Chinese to understand why they do the things they do and here is my conclusion.

They stare because most of them never seen a white guy (foreign) before even though they have seen them on TV but it is not the same thing.

Most of the hello are coming from young people. They would like to practice their English but is shy because they don't think they can speak it right. You know that English is a must course in all high schools.

They cut in line because they have been doing that all their life. What gets me is that they will stand in a line until the bus or movie theater opens and then they will all rush in. The part that used to get to me is getting in and out of an elevator. However I have found that if I just wait until everyone else gets in front of me, I usually end up waiting for the next elevator because it will be full and then the same thing happens with the next elevator. So now I just crowd in like everyone else.

I think it is just education. Just think that if you want to train a dog to wait until you fill his food bowl and then he will go and eat it takes time. Most dogs will start to go after the food as soon as you try to fill his bowl. He does this beause no one has train him and it is the same case with the Chinese people. The real problem is that when they cut in front of you in line, the cashier does not care so they will do it again. You notice that it does not happen at Wal-mart because I have seen the cashier (must have been trained by Wal-mart) will refuse to accept their money and tell them to get to the back of the line. If this is done a few time then they will learn that cutting in line will not get them anywhere. Just my 2 cents.

Cebu Local

08-30-05, 22:56

I think it is just education. Just think that if you want to train a dog to wait until you fill his food bowl and then he will go and eat it takes time. Most dogs will start to go after the food as soon as you try to fill his bowl. He does this beause no one has train him and it is the same case with the Chinese people. The real problem is that when they cut in front of you in line, the cashier does not care so they will do it again. You notice that it does not happen at Wal-mart because I have seen the cashier (must have been trained by Wal-mart) will refuse to accept their money and tell them to get to the back of the line. If this is done a few time then they will learn that cutting in line will not get them anywhere. Just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE]I totally agree with this.Have you seen how well behaved a chinese tour group behaves in Singapore.It is such a"fine"city.They dont spit,jaywalk litter or smoke in unauthorized places.It is amazing what hundreds of chinese tourists paying fines can do to teach them to behave.Same thing in My native Vancouver,they quickly realize certain behavior is not acceptable to Canadian Society

Lao Ma

08-31-05, 00:11

Lex : right on - that analysis is spot-on, couldn't agree more.

Now, another post from a different punter:

"Considering what I hear some guys P4P, I wish you would all leave the niunius alone as you are driving up the price. Just like those freaking Taiwanese and Japs. The can fuck off too! "

Nice comments, for a racist. But since I doubt you are a racist, perhaps you are unaware that the term "jap" is like calling a mexican a wetback. The Taiwanese and Japanese (not Japs) have an incredibly tiny effect on the prices here in China. I pay what I want to and can afford to pay. What I pay a girl is nobody's f-ing business but my own. If I think I'm getting a value for my money, I'll go for it. Your cheap-assness is not a factor whatsoever in what I pay.

Bob Builder

08-31-05, 03:41

Just so happens I work with a Mexican from the US, so I better ask my compadre why is he a wetback. And no, I am not a racist(I have equal disdain for every race, LOL!) but I am finding it ironic that as I mentioned at the top of my post that all this shit sounds familiar but it is usually someone Asian saying it from some other part of the world, where generally the majority is white.

Its even funnier if you hear these comments from an ABC (American born Chinese) as I have when after a life in the west, they ***** about being treated as inferiors by white people in the US and then ***** about how bad the Chinese are in Hong Kong or China, especially when they get laughed at for not being able to speak Chinese properly. And then they spend all their time in Asia with other ABCs or white people, speaking English.

I'm all for you paying as much as you can as you can look at it from another point of view, you are contributing to the local economy of some rural village in the sticks and drastically impoved the standard of living there. But you're probably right, I am a cheap ass but no different from some other recent posters I have seen here who are especially hard on newbies. The whole thing is getting the most "bang for your buck"(pun intended), Tips options.

Going To China

08-31-05, 07:28

When I was passed out drunk. Laughing

RedNeck = ( Farmer ) in China

I will admit, Im not a little man and when I go to other cities besides Shanghai, I get stared at and what is really weird since I have hair on arms, people have came up and touched my hair on my arms. Weird, yes to me but Im weird to them. As long as Im wearing my sunglasses, I dont mind but deep down, is hard to handle from time to time.

They're call rednecks in the states or just plain ignorant MFs. Yes. They are everywhere and there's nothing we can do about it. Aside from that, there are whites, blacks and puerto ricans in the states that makes fun of Chinese too. So I guess it evens out in the long run. And there are the Chinese that makes fun of how the Vietnamese talk.

BTW, I was taught not to stare at people and not to get involved with any disputes I see in the street. So you can be lying and dying on the street and I will keep walking by.

Bill

Ontario Boy

09-01-05, 02:30

When I was passed out drunk. Laughing

RedNeck = ( Farmer ) in China

I will admit, Im not a little man and when I go to other cities besides Shanghai, I get stared at and what is really weird since I have hair on arms, people have came up and touched my hair on my arms. Weird, yes to me but Im weird to them. As long as Im wearing my sunglasses, I dont mind but deep down, is hard to handle from time to time.I know where you are coming from. I was on a public bus coming back into BJ from the summer palace and was sitting opposite a young family with a little daughter about 3 or 4. She reached across and started pinching the hair on my arms. Her mother was embarassed but the girl was laughing her head off so I guess the curiousity is inborn.

Sleepy Floyd

09-01-05, 04:00

Chop Sticks

09-01-05, 15:05

I must say that the "I dont give a shit" attitude of the chinese people is why i like this country much.

I live in a european country, which has way too much stupid regulations and pseudo-social and left-liberal rules.

I like it when you have the freedom to spit on the street, cross the street at red light, stare at anyone you want, bring your drinks to the restaurant. I think in some ways the Chinese have more freedom, than we have.

Sometimes I hate their bad habits too, but it only last for a few hours. When I eat the food I like for 1 $, take a bus for 10 cents and get someone for the night to bang for 30 $, I am happy as I never would be in my country.

And my experience is that I also get a lot "hellos" from college students direct in my face, not behind me.

But I know GZ is not a friendly city.

Intransit,

I've also witnessed them staring at a disabled person or someone disfigured in some horrible way. They are just fucking rude, there's no way around it. I remember my mother chastising me about staring at people when I was 5 years old. Apparently, teaching kids to be polite is not the Chinese way. How does it make the disabled person feel to be stared at? The Chinese don't fucking give a shit.

Cronin

Tequila Kid

09-01-05, 18:35

Excellent post Count G,
I could not have said it better.

I know OAH is right….
“The middle/upper class, educated, Chinese people have manners and know how to behave around foreigners”

….but these uneducated/classless morons can really spoil things.

Going To China

09-02-05, 01:44

Excellent post Count G,
I could not have said it better.

I know OAH is right

“The middle/upper class, educated, Chinese people have manners and know how to behave around foreigners”

But these uneducated/classless morons can really spoil things.Lets face it, no matter where you are in the world, it is the same affect.

Ontario Boy

09-02-05, 02:34

One of the things I have found out about China is how their minor officials love to wield their power and it will be directed against their own people more than foreigners. An example occured on my last trip to Beijing when I was going through the immigration check. I was with my Chinese girlfriend who, while still travelling on a Chinese passport, has lived in Canada for about five years. I went first and breezed through with a polite "Welcome to China" from the young male officer. My girlfriend went next and immediately he started actually yelling at her in Chinese I turned around to see what was going on and my friend said go ahead it wasn't serious. She then left the line and came back a few moments later. Her crime was that had she completed her landing card in English not Chinese. The previously polite official turned on her and accused her of forgetting that she was Chinese and just because she was with a foreigner didn't change a thing.

AMPfinder

09-02-05, 06:03

Hey guys,

I am thinking about getting a place out in Shanghai. Can anyone give me a quick breakdown of the law regarding residential housing in China? Also, does anyone know of good weblinks that could give me more of such info.

Me: US Citizen.

Thanks a bunch.

OldAsiaHand

09-02-05, 07:12

Ontario Boy,

An immigration official scolded my wife (China born, US Naturalized) for filling in the form in Chinese. She almost always gets questions when leaving the country, even with her US passport. Strange.

OAH

One of the things I have found out about China is how their minor officials love to wield their power and it will be directed against their own people more than foreigners. An example occured on my last trip to Beijing when I was going through the immigration check. I was with my Chinese girlfriend who, while still travelling on a Chinese passport, has lived in Canada for about five years. I went first and breezed through with a polite "Welcome to China" from the young male officer. My girlfriend went next and immediately he started actually yelling at her in Chinese I turned around to see what was going on and my friend said go ahead it wasn't serious. She then left the line and came back a few moments later. Her crime was that had she completed her landing card in English not Chinese. The previously polite official turned on her and accused her of forgetting that she was Chinese and just because she was with a foreigner didn't change a thing.

Jack Spratt

09-02-05, 16:20

Chopsticks

I am sure that the long term (foreign) residents of China share your reasons for being happy here in the middle kingdom. But I sure as hell don't share your enjoyment of the so called "freedoms". Coming from Oz, I have some understanding of over-regulation and "nannyism", but I would hate it to degenerate, so we get to some of the levels (ie freedoms) I see here. And I certainly don't want to see the real freedoms we have in the west being sacrificed for the very superficial "freedoms" you espouse in China. Because they have no real freedoms at all.

Sorry for the politics.

jack

Ontario Boy

09-03-05, 19:10

OAH,

There is a common element in both our threads . I am assuming that you are laowei like me and we were both with "Chinese" women. I think that the officials are showing the old jealousy of chinese women with non chinese men. They have the opportunity to pull rank and do.

Weelock

09-03-05, 20:21

Because of Hurricane Katrina, those gas lines in China might get worst. Gas prices is expect to increase 20 to 30% short term in the USA. Some places people are wait 1 hour for gas in the USA. The shortage is expect to be worldwide. Don't know if this is real or not.

Good thing about the price being stable after reading monger Tanget's post about China setting a lock on the price, $2USD. It's averging about $3.05 regular unleaded on the West Coast of the US. It should get higher.

Weelock

Although the situation in Guangzhou is still OK, I noticed some lines in Shenzhen this week. Best to arrive with enough gas to avoid the waiting.

Csun, thanks for the compliment.

Fast Eddie, Just give me a call.

OAH

Bill Lee

09-03-05, 23:10

For those that are going to answer this question, please post it and not PM. I would like to know too.

How does the general process work on a used apartment/house and new property? I take it all the documents are in Chinese only?

Bill

Hey guys,

I am thinking about getting a place out in Shanghai. Can anyone give me a quick breakdown of the law regarding residential housing in China? Also, does anyone know of good weblinks that could give me more of such info.

Me: US Citizen.

Thanks a bunch.

LoveAsia

09-04-05, 00:25

For those that are going to answer this question, please post it and not PM. I would like to know too.

How does the general process work on a used apartment/house and new property? I take it all the documents are in Chinese only?

Bill

Hi Bill,

With regards to buying property:

I am only familiar with Shenzhen but I assume there is minor differences around the country. For a new property, a foreigner is expected to pay 30% down payment and then there is a fee for you to have a guarantee company in the event you default to the bank. If you are buying a property with a mainland Chinese person as a partner, the down payment is typically 20% if they are a resident of the particular city. In China, when you buy you really do not own it as you would in the US. For new properties in Shenzhen, the property reverts back to the government after 70 years. I imagine that will change in the future for the better. In Shanghai I believe new properties revert back to the government after 90 years.

Rentals: Typically a real estate agency will handle the documentation. You provide your passport, visa and other supporting documents they may require. Typically you may be asked to give a 3 month rental deposit aside from the first months rent. You then have to pay the agency fee which is typically 1/2 months rent. If you are familiar with the term triple net lease..this is how rentals work in China. You pay rent, management fee on the apartment, electric, gas, telephone, etc. Any damage (and I mean any) you will be charged for. When you rent the apartment go through every inch before taking possession. After you do and you find something..it becomes your problem and your expense.

LA

Lao Ma

09-04-05, 03:39

Love Asia wrote:

Rentals: Typically a real estate agency will handle the documentation. You provide your passport, visa and other supporting documents they may require. Typically you may be asked to give a 3 month rental deposit aside from the first months rent. You then have to pay the agency fee which is typically 1/2 months rent. If you are familiar with the term triple net lease..this is how rentals work in China. You pay rent, management fee on the apartment, electric, gas, telephone, etc. Any damage (and I mean any) you will be charged for. When you rent the apartment go through every inch before taking possession. After you do and you find something..it becomes your problem and your expense.

Not me. Always used a well-known real estate company, never paid anything more than one month security deposit, never paid a 1/2 month agency fee ( that is usually covered by the landlord), and gas, electric, and management fees have always been included in the monthly rental.

Tiger 888

09-04-05, 09:31

For the documentation and contracts, all is in Chinese. It is your own business to get it translated.

Shanghai, at least 4 years back when I bought also has a 70 years lease on the real estate. Then there will be another charge to extrend the time, But I think we don't need to worry about this.

If you buy through an agent, there is a 1% charge for the agent from both parties. If you want to sell the property within 2 years, you need to pay 5,5% tax on the whole amount. If you sell after 2 years, you only pay 5,5% on the profit.

By the way, I have a penthouse appartment (2 floors, 240 sqm) with a roof terrace in the Building of the "appartment factory" in Shanghai which I want to sell.

LoveAsia

09-04-05, 14:22

I know OAH is right….
“The middle/upper class, educated, Chinese people have manners and know how to behave around foreigners”
….but these uneducated/classless morons can really spoil things.

I doubt the middle/upper class, educated, Chinese people have manners either. They more or less control their normal instincts around foreigners. You either have manners all the time or none of the time. Its not an on/off switch to use at your discretion. More often than not they will smile in your face and then say something in Chinese to the people they are with not flattering to you or questioning about you. As of today I am switiching to decaf while I remain living in China, otherwise I will likely pop a screw. :)

Bob Builder

09-04-05, 15:07

I assume you mean people with more money. More money does not necessarily mean better manners. It can mean more arrogance and worse manners as at least they should know better. Money buys you more expensive things but not always the class that you associate with it.

IMHO, let it go as at least most of the things that you guys are not happy about are born of ignorance or naievity and not with really mailicious intent.

Silly Puppy

09-04-05, 19:18

racism exists in any cultures or countries. the hongkong folks mock the east indians while these indians love to make fun of the chinese. many viet despise chinese, call them names, make fun of the way they talk, and deep inside are very proud of themselves for stopping chinese invaders in the last 2000 years. the cambodian hate the viet for occupying their land, love to fuck/[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) young viet girls, kill the men, call them "youn" a very degrading term in cambodian, etc. the american hate the french and vice versa ... my buddy, a chinese american, loves to imitate how the german speak english. :) the mongolian enslaved, imprisioned, raped, humiliated, killed, you-name-it, millions of europeans, chinese, .. in 1500's. the only thing which seems always correct is "the rich and strong rule". this statement however is also relative as you can't always be rich and strong forever. so be humble of what you are.

when you are so apparent in the crowd people will stare at you. this fact has nothing to do with rudeness. when we vacationed in dominican republic the local black folks stared at us. once people get so used to seeing white, handicaped, retarded, whatever the reason, they will stop staring. so stop worrying and just be happily fucking! ;)

Tiger 888

09-04-05, 23:29

I think that some of the people who made too much money in too short time get the attitude that they own the world. The problem is that China especially has many of them.

The really educated people mostly have manners all over the world.

Bull Dozer

09-05-05, 00:47

Lao Ma

09-05-05, 01:16

Go Joe,

Only things I can suggest, (and you've probably allready done this) are to make sure you have local chinese working for your firm that are present at all the negotiations and project planning sessions. Helps to be fluent in the dialect too. Last thing - maybe review or update your mandatory vendor/supplier criteria and requirement documents. Did you demand meetings or telephone calls with at least 3 references? That's SOP for our Chinese businesses. What is your decision making process for selecting suppliers? Many of my friends in the business community will only use a new supplier if that supplier is personnally recommended by another firm with large amounts of business with the supplier. And the introductions have been VP/MD or above. Joining the AmCham (or whatever nationality your firm is) is invaluable for the networking and introductions apsect here.

I've been burned in the past, and it was usually in Guandong, too. Hmmm.

LoveAsia

09-05-05, 01:22

Go Joe,

What you experienced is typical for mainland China. In fact I have experienced the same problem in Taiwan many times as well. Are you living and working in China? If you are not and only fly here to make the agreements then you have a greater chance of being cheated. If you are here you can control the downpayment more and check on the work being done. Typically I will not give more than 10% and that is after I see the drawings.

If you do not live here I would suggest finding a person to work for you (not Chinese) but a native born from your country ideally. I have heard a number of stories where American Chinese (not American born) that came to China to represent the US company and ended up making a side deal with the Chinese company to get kickbacks. I am not saying this is the norm but it is common enough to warrant an advocate for yourself and your company.

LA

Bull Dozer

09-05-05, 01:28

James Tran,
Just from your racism report, I am very curious to know, do Chinese hate East Indians, Japenese, Vietnamese & the list goes on. If you are not a Chinese or a white Caucasian ( or Cocky Asian) rules are different, is that just taught to them when they are growing up or what is the problem. How & when will they learn to mix Globally. Just trying to broaden my knowledge. Any comments appreciated.

GJ

Bull Dozer

09-05-05, 01:43

LoveAsia

09-05-05, 02:07

Go Joe,

The go between typically does not know about the product but is there to represent your companies interests. Just the presence of this go between typically is enough to keep things on a level playing field. I used to travel between the US and China too but had to move here to watch what the hell was going on.

Once I flew to Taiwan from the US to check on an order before it shipped and all the product have different colors rather than one unified color. It was a nightmare.

I am sure you can find companies that can be your advocate here for you for a reasonable fee.

Good luck,

LA

Csun213

09-05-05, 03:24

Love Asia,
Thanks for your suggestions. I live in USA but place orders & then come back. I wonder if a person even though living in China has to continually keep checking on the manufacturer for quality, it seems to be a full time job just to Baby sit the manufacturer, is it really worth it. That means you cannot trust them at all. Besides if you get a local middleman all he wants is his money in between but may not know anything about the Custom products you need or order. How to find the right person & trust him that he will get the job done correctly, if it is done wrong , No Shirt off his back. Love to hear back from you. thanks.

GJ

Go Joe, just to let you know that I used to work in Taiwan for 8 years for a U.S. company. I have also dealed with China since most of the parts are coming from China. If you just try to count on the company to do right by you beause you have a contract then you will be cheated. To the Chinese, it is not really cheating. It is just business dealing. Just think about how you purchase something in China in general. They give you a price, and then you counter with a lower price and so on. The point is that they try to get the best price possible. The contract does not mean that it is the end. They will try to get over on you anyway they can. You will find that it is actually cheaper to have someone looking out for your interest in China rather than trying to deal yourself. I used to fly to China from Taiwan to make sure that everything is right before they ship the final product. A U.S. friend of mine ordered some golf gloves from China because the price was right and even flew to China to check on the product during production however his mistake was leaving before the product was ready to be shipped. After he got back to the U.S. and receive the gloves, he found that they were made with a cheaper material. By then the money has been paid since it was fob. This is the reason why all the U.S. company has someone in China to check on everything prior to shipping. Please e-mail me if you want to know more because I don't want to take up more space on this board.

Bob Builder

09-05-05, 04:07

And obviously you have never heard of any non-Chinese buyers for large US companies that come to China and make a killing off kickbacks. I wonder how those guys on US$50k jobs get to retire in Miami with country club membership, boat and seaside mansion. Things must be really cheap in the US.

LoveAsia

09-05-05, 06:07

Bob Builder

09-05-05, 12:39

Those guys are easy to find. The're the ones who live next to the guys who used to work at Enron and Halliburton.

LOL.

I think you get my point.

Why do you think so very well educated and smart people take up seemingly lowly Far East Merchandising or Buying jobs?

Just like the fact that not every Chinese is dirty, not every non-Chinese is so clean either when it comes to taking kickbacks.

Bob Builder

09-05-05, 12:43

Cebu Local

09-06-05, 10:09

Those guys are easy to find. The're the ones who live next to the guys who used to work at Enron and Halliburton. I think you get my point.

Why do you think so very well educated and smart people take up seemingly lowly Far East Merchandising or Buying jobs?

Just like the fact that not every Chinese is dirty, not every non-Chinese is so clean either when it comes to taking kickbacks.

Why do you think lots of manufacturers and trading companies have to go thru so-called "agents" in the US to get into department and chain stores and can' go direct. And normally the agents are ex-employees of the said department stores.
I cant speak for China,But my friend who owns a travel agency in Manila handles the account of the manager of the W****** purchasing office in the Philippines.His last family holiday he spent over 20k for cruise tickets,5 star hotels,First Class Airplane tickets.My friend was surprised W***** payed so well.Hmmmmm

Cebu Local

09-06-05, 10:39

I have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with 12 different companies in Guangzhou area in the past 1.5 years, out of the 12 businesses 9 businesses cheated me to get more money after all terms were agreed to.
Till the time the orders were placed all terms were a no problem, but once the 30% Deposit money was given to them , things started to change, either the product ordered could not be made or would have to substitute for something else. One Business owner after I received the Autocad drawing of the product I had ordered, the drawing was completely different, so when I told him that it was incorrect & what we had talked about is what I want, infact I showed him 3 times the product I wanted was similar to what he had in his showroom, he had the tenacity to tell me that my memory was bad & we had never talked about what I wanted. If I wanted the Pattern I would have to pay him $500.00 more.The company did very good quality work, but the Business ethics in China don't exist.
Similar things happened with all the other companies, just for small money they are willing to loose a good repeat customer. They just think of making money today, not in the future. These are real experiences, makes me wonder how to trust Chinese businessman. If this was done in US I would have had big lawsuits against the bastards. Any helpful advice from other experienced businessman would be appreciated.

GJGJ
I do not do business in China,though I have been dealing with Chinese Travel agents for about 5 years.Some things I have learned, A contract is just a piece of paper to the majority of them.They value the verbal agreements more and I have been doing business with some now for years without a contract.Judges are corrupt and decide in favor of the highest bidder.Guangxi or connections are the most important.Each deal is a separate distinct transaction from the previous,Our contract is just a piece of paper.

OK,Here s a deal in action.We agreed to a price of 42$ per room for a 4 star hotel with a minimum of 25 persons per group.We had a contract for this,then suddenly he only wanted to book 16 people at the same rate and give 9 later.No way we applied a surcharge for no show.He backed down and we went back to 25 people.We agreed to full payment upon checkin as per contract,But when they checked in,they only payed 50% promising to pay upon check out the remainder.Not surprisingly He payed a check to settle the balance,No way We called the bank to find out it was a bad check. we then casually invited the Tour manager for a friendly chat.We informed him that my prosecutor buddy had prepared an Estafa case against the whole tour group and they would be stopped at Immigration and be prevented from leaving the Philippines and THE wHOLE TOUR GROUP WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO JAIL.Yes I bribed the prosecutor of course to scare him,Chinese respect Guangxi.The money was wired from their head office in 2 hours.Get the picture.This was a simple tour group.Imagine a bigger deal.Each transaction is a separate battle.Hope this gives some insights

DayNight

09-06-05, 11:41

GJ
I do not do business in China...

Well, I do business in China and don't really have such problems. I check that people can do the job and make sure that they also get a good deal.

If problems arise, we work them out. Keep in mind that specially smaller companies are very disorganised and may quote prices too low, not foreseeing difficulties.

(can speak only about manufacturing, know nottin about travel industry....)

Didier5810

09-06-05, 13:43

Well good manners come with education and social level. Just look at what is happening in USA after the Katerina to understand that bad chinese manners aren't the worst in this world.

Didier

Bob Builder

09-06-05, 16:05

You could always do the right thing and avoid all these problems. Be patriotic and buy goods made in the gold old USA! Then you can support US manufacturing and get quality made merchandise made exactly to specification with no hassle.

Didier5810

09-06-05, 16:18

Dear DayNight,

Your analysis is correct. How about the IP protection in China when you do business?

Regards

Didier

Me10

09-06-05, 17:45

Well, business is business and you can get screwed anywhere in the world. Still with the volume and profit you can get out of China business, the risk is worth.

DayNight

09-07-05, 03:19

Dear DayNight,

How about the IP protection in China when you do business?

I usually work with sub components, often custom made. I'm 100% sure the companies I work with will not make parts with my tools. However, other companies may copy the whole product, but not from me. If they want to copy then they can just buy whatever they want to copy in the market and copy it.

Didier5810

09-07-05, 10:59

Thanks DayNight,

Are you saying that only final products risk to be copied but not sub components inside?

Didier

OldAsiaHand

09-08-05, 05:12

It's all about a different set of ethics in China. What is called "cheating" in the West is called "clever" in the East. It's a simple as that.

Just my POV.

OAH

Didier5810

09-08-05, 08:06

It's all about a different set of ethics in China. What is called "cheating" in the West is called "clever" in the East. It's a simple as that.

Just my POV.

OAH,

What is called "cheating" in East is also called "clever" in West too !

Didier

DayNight

09-08-05, 10:33

Thanks DayNight,

Are you saying that only final products risk to be copied but not sub components inside?

Didier

When they copy then they copy usually the whole thing. Usually 1:1 since they have not the brain power to modify anything. Those products are usually not exportable and may sell a bit in 3rd world markets.

I'm not bothered at all about that.

For me, I but sub parts from different factories, and those sub factories usually have no clear idea what the final product is.

On top of that, 'better' companies, with ISO900x etc. and well filled export order book usually don't copy.

Cebu Local

09-08-05, 10:47

It's all about a different set of ethics in China. What is called "cheating" in the West is called "clever" in the East. It's a simple as that.

Just my POV.

OAHI use a western book to guide me in all my business dealings with Chinese.Its a classic called Machiavelli and modern Management as well as an Eastern Book Sun Tzu s Art of War.

Cronin

09-08-05, 11:46

OAH,

I agree with you, there is no such thing as financial ethics in China. But I think this will work against them in the long run.

Contracts here are not worth the paper they are written on. Why they even bother to write contracts is a mystery to me.

I negotiated long and hard on my employment contract before I got here, what a fucking waste of time that was. I won't go into the details, but when I arrived, my employer was in serious violation of the contract.

When I tried to complain about this, the previously super friendly HR person literally turned her back on me, wouldn't even discuss it. Basically, "Fuck You we got your ass" was their attitude. I was stunned. And very naive. I thought, what the hell is going on, this is a very well known organization in China and I am one of their "stars", always trotted out to bring prestige to the organization. What a dumb ass I was.

It was only when I began to negotiate employment with one of their competitors that the HR department changed their attitude. The day the other company called to check my references, they suddenly became very concerned over my "contract". Problem solved overnight.

And I could tell you several other stories with other companies I have contracted with here which are identical. But I don't have to, everyone knows this. GM just learned this the hard way when they had their auto designs stolen out from under them. Did they have a contract? Ummm, probably. Did that help them? What a laugh.

In the US, if you are in violation of contract, you get a lawyer and go to court. The system is far from perfect, granted, but it is functional. Generally, just the threat of a lawsuit is enough to force compliance. Everyone knows that contracts are subject to the rule of law.

China is desperate to gain international acceptance in the financial community. They are making great progress, I think its only a matter of time before the Yuan replaces the dollar as the international standard currency, maybe 10 or 20 years at the outside.

But they have a big fucking problem with contracts and the legal system. There is no law in China and therefore there are no contracts. I have no idea how they are going to solve this, because as you say, it is cultural.

Just my poorer but wiser opinion.

Cronin

Cebu Local

09-08-05, 13:25

Six years ago I attended a Seminar on doing Business in the China Market during the International Trade Expo in Hong Kong.I will never forget two things said by our resource speakers
"Contracts are only Pieces of Paper" What is more important is the the agreement between the 2 individuals.This was said by the Head of China Travel Service.Basically contracts are pieces of paper recording verbal agreements and since verbal agreements are subject to change ,So are "contracts"Half of my China business is now running on verbal agreements "supported" by Contracts,But we have generally never followed the contracts on BOTH SIDES,I also treat contracts as pieces of paper when dealing with Chinese.Westerners,Japanese etc are a different story of course

The Concept of Impartial justice is alien since Justice is dispensed to the highest bidder.Remember that during traditional Chinese funerals they burn fake money,Ever wonder what its for?It is hell money used to bribe the judges in the afterlife,so that in case you are suppossed to go to Hell,You can bribe them to let you into HEAVEN.So if those judges are corrupt,What more ordinary mortal judges.So running to the courts is not an option unless you have sufficient resources to BUY justice.I have lost collection cases in China for stupid reasons,So I dont even bother to go to the courts in China anymore.I use a Triad owned collection agency who I pay a huge amount of commision for collections to collect from deadbeat Chinese Travel agents.It is generally effective since word spreads about this "Gwailo"who plays chinese style.This may not apply in all industries,but this has helped me personally in my dealings.

Cebu Local

09-08-05, 13:36

It's all about a different set of ethics in China. What is called "cheating" in the West is called "clever" in the East. It's a simple as that.

Just my POV.

OAH
Besides even if you are "bad"You can always "bribe" your way into Heaven in the afterlife.So why bother being "good"

Cebu Local

09-08-05, 13:41

But they have a big fucking problem with contracts and the legal system. There is no law in China and therefore there are no contracts. I have no idea how they are going to solve this, because as you say, it is cultural.

Just my poorer but wiser opinion.

Cronin[/QUOTE]But they do,Its called the law of the Jungle

Didier5810

09-08-05, 14:41

Bob Builder

09-08-05, 17:11

For all the bitching about no legal recourse, it is the cost of doing business. And you will keep going to China becos it is simply cheaper than manufacturing back home. The same reason that if you make anything in the US there is a cost: high cost of labour, insurance against lawsuits, compliance with enviromental laws.

You all say that law is bought in China with bribes and guangxi. What is the difference between this and what happens in the US with paying lobby groups and hiring expensive lawyers? Fuck if Bush can win in Miami and OJ can get off, you can buy anything!

I have been with US reps of Fortune 500 companies and frankly they don't give a shit how something is made as long as it is cheap. So much for the high moral ground being taken here. Mike, Tiger and the company with the "swoosh" are laughing all the way to the bank as the majority of consumers in the US don't give a shit either. Where is the fund for the sneaker shoe factory workers permanently impaired after working for months with toxic glue?

You go "factory direct" becos its cheap. You could always go thru a domestic agent in the US if you want "legal recourse" in the US but guess what .... it costs more!

So for all those on their high horses bitching about the ethics of Chinese, take a look at your own ethics as what you are doing can been seen as:

1) Having goods manufactured in a third world country paying slave wages
2) Exploiting Child labour
3) In factories that openly dump pollutants into the environment

ISO 900X is a joke! Anyone can set up a model factory and ship in subcontracted goods in the back door from unqualified factories.

And whose going to go back to manufacturing in the lazy, arrogant US instead of dealing with the lying, cheating Chinese...0

As Cebu Local has worked out, "When in Rome..."

Cebu Local

09-08-05, 23:21

Dear Cronin,

I agree with your opinion. But I think this culture is created by the culture revolution. If you look at the chinese history, there are a lot of inventions to materilize the contracts between people. Chinese are the first to use fingerprints to valid a contract long loong time before the use of signature in the western cultures.

But I agree with you that it is difficult to do business between two unkown individuals with an enough respect to signed contracts. What is your solution for this fucking problem?

Didier
Didier
I am not a master like Cronin,But here goes ,I usually find an "older brother" who is respected or feared by the other party to witness and"gurantee" the deal,Have you noticed how many contract signings are witnessed by Politicians,Ambassadors etc.The Elder brother can be called upon for help if the other party cheats since He will lose face.Case in point I was defrauded by a Chinese Travel agent of 17,000$.But since He was introduced by the Chinese Ambassador to the Philippines Ambassador Wu,I complained about it to Ambassador Wu noting that this created a bad image for him.I found a "elder brother" in China Travel Service to voice a similiar concern to the Ambassador.The person was suspended from doing business in the Philippines and We settled at 15,000$ for me to retract the complaint.No need to go to court all extra legally settled.All it cost was a few banquets,bottles of Cognac to say Thank You

Didier5810

09-09-05, 15:21

What you said is true ! A respectful witness can resolve partially this problem. But for a foreinger in place, where can he find a respectful witness?

Didier

Cebu Local

09-09-05, 22:58

What you said is true ! A respectful witness can resolve partially this problem. But for a foreinger in place, where can he find a respectful witness?

DidierIf you are European,Canadian,Aussie or American,You could join the Chamber of Commerce of your Country to get the networking opportunities.An officer or head of your country s chamber of commerce or a trade attache is also good.That way,If you are screwed,the other party gets blacklisted and put on the shit list of your country s embassy.When I lived in Bangkok before,I was active in the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and that was where I met the current deputy Prime Minister,now deceased.But you can imagine how I used his business card to help with Thai Civil Servants.Even though the guy forgot me probably after we exchanged business cards.When I was being shaken down,pulling out his card and starting to call his office tended to stop it right away.Sorry,Sorry, Did not know you were friend of Khun..........Hope this helps

Frisk

09-11-05, 15:01

Hello,

I need a (love) note translated. Of course it is napkin size. If you PM me I can send you a Scan. Tell me what I can do for you in return.

DayNight

09-12-05, 03:39

2) exploiting child labour

iso 900x is a joke!

i never came across child labour in china. there are some problems that ****d workes get fake ids that make them older. but why would a factory hire ****d workers knowingly?

i'm not saying that it does not exist. it may. but it's definitely not wide spread.

iso900x works well if as a buyer you know how to use it. if the buyer has a basic understanding what iso can do, and what not, it will be helpfull.

and what is 'slave salary' anyway? my salary is probably considered a slave salary by some top bankers. it's all relative. fact is, in china you have to pay well to get workers. specially south china has a huge labour shortage. and you won't get or hold workers if you don't pay well.

SE Asia Joe

09-12-05, 05:28

First off I am NOT a lawyer - but please allow me to give you my take on the laws in China - in order for you guys to straighten me out (and perhaps save me from some possible grief) if correct or not. Here goes:
Unlike most western countries under common law i.e. precedence setting judegements form the basis of most laws of the land - chinese laws are promulgated during their NPCCC meetings when a 'leader' would propose a law or another and the delegates would vote on passing or not. Using this system, there has only been very very few laws passed in China (only 700 odd I believe), and as such, most transactions/actions/aggressions etc are not covered and are conducted under whatever guise one can come up with i.e. contracts which are unenforceable under law as the law does not exist, Caveat Emptor, Who's got the bigger club etc etc. Worse, every little bureacratic head then comes up with his own laws governing his fiefdom and carry on merrily draining everything and everybody, safe and smug in the knowledge that there is really no specifical law that forbids his own little law! This arises the various corrupt activities for which China is known these days for and the various isntances of unresolved grievnaces.
To make matters worse, those entrusted with enforcing whatever laws there are in China is often times subject to corruptive temptations and thus this feeling of lawlessness that pervades China nowadays.
Like I said, the above are only MY OWN TAKE of the laws of China and would really appreciate y'all's advise if I am correct or not.
Thanks
SE Asia Joe

Bob Builder

09-12-05, 06:41

Daynight,

You hit the nail on the head. Everything is relative!

I was trying to point out for all the dialogue on unenforcability of legal contract and bitching of ethics of Chinese in general as a race, people in the west have no qualms about buying products manufactured in conditions that they would not tolerate in their own countries. Even though it is the individuals workers' choice whether they are willing to accept jobs with certain working conditions.

Just as it is the same choice and risk that buyers make to purchase direct from manufacturers in that may not comply or deliver to specs as they have gone with low cost cos with no legally entity that you can get legal recourse from outside of China.

I recently have had a pal who has done business with a company in the US that has refused to pay with no reason and he has found the legal cost of persuing the debt greatly prohibitive. Others have dealt with US cos to have them wind up without paying their debts and start up over again using another limited liability company. So there are unscrupulous dealers both sides of the fence and it is not a Chinese cultural thing.

Me10

09-12-05, 07:08

If interested in Chinese law mechanisms, please reade the following: The General Principles of the Civil Law of the People's Republic of China, The Civil Procedure Law of the People's Republic of China, The Arbitration Law of the People's Republic of China, The Guarantee Law of the People's Republic of China, The Partnership Law of the People's Republic of China, plus all the international trade treaties and conventions that the People's Republic of China has signed and ratified.

It would shock you but actually due to ignorance of the system is why people get screwed, and not only in China.
Still, on commercial and trade terms, China has proven to be judicially secure for my transactions.

Anyways, we most make money in China and we most win more than lose.
Complaining is easy but try to do business some of the Russian Republics, Middle East or Africa.

OldAsiaHand

09-12-05, 07:16

Just heard a good one today. An employee of one factory was robbed and knocked off a motorcycle on his way to buy some materials. He is in the hospital racking up the bills. The insurance company does not pay. According to the factory owner, they must find the thief and sue him for damages. Is this a joke or what?

OAH

Me10

09-12-05, 07:20

Well aren't all insurance companies in the world the largest legit robbers? Anyways, as in all legal systems, there is lots of faults in China.

Kunshan

09-12-05, 07:24

A few years a go a German friend in Beijing had just parked his car, locked the door and was about to cross the street when a lady on a bike was knocked down by a car, my friend went to help the lady,when the police came they found that he was the guilty party and he had to pay some money (not much, about 300rmb) to be allowed to leave. This is why people in China can be slow to help those who have road accidents.

Me10

09-12-05, 07:41

To all drivers:

According to the Chinese Traffic Law, pedestrians and bikes rules, drivers beware because the law is tilted against all motorists.

Bob Builder

09-12-05, 16:21

The general rule of traffic accidents in China is that if you are a foreigner, you will pay as you are believed to be wealthier and can afford to pay.

Joinway

09-12-05, 17:15

Different from British-America legal system, Chinese Law is writing codes - like in France, correct me if it is wrong - So it is not based on case history, however, it is more or less a semi or mixed system according to my take.

There are legal explanations issued by Supreme Court each quarter or occasionally. Those are CASES according to my take, they are events, sentences, rules, and WHY, to guide judges.

For all of business persons in China, my advice is FIND A GOOD LAWER who knows local law better than you, that would help you so much, language barrier is not a problem in large cities.

I had experience of doing business in Africa countries like Kenya, South Africa, etc. There are much worse than in China, but we knew the rules and we survive and thrive.

Clandestine782

09-12-05, 17:26

You guys please be gentle if you are going to blowtorch me for asking this, but.....

I was at a Sauna today and asked for a Sichuan girl (because they have been the provider of so many good sexual experiences in the past) and they sent me in one who was only so-so looking-- by Chinese standards that is, knowing that Chinese men will treat one or two extra pounds as morbid obesity and reject a woman because of it.

Anyway... She comes in and starts the service, but she acts very strange (such as wanting to hug and kiss). It also comes up that this is only her second day at the job and that she hates it but has to do it to support her grandmother who is off somewhere in a nursing home in Sichuan. Apparently her parents separated and seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth. Or something close to it, in terms of how much support they offer her grandmother. I asked her how much she could earn hooking and she was *very* reluctant to tell me that her boss told her that she could earn 6,000RMB per month (which doesn't make mathematical sense after the Mama-san and house taking their cut, but that's another story). I told her that I had a very nice apartment (which I do) as a condition of a contract that I've taken with a university. This is where the fun part comes in:

Over the last couple of days, the university staff have told me about 500 times to NOT look at the students. And my personal assistant has even suggested that it would be a bad idea to try to find students from the other surrounding 5 universities. I just happen to know that it would be a very bad idea to try to have a relationship on the Down Low, because there are spies EVERYWHERE. There are at least two security guards at every gate on every shift, as well. This girl solves a lot of problems all at once in that she is not a university student and said that she would be willing to live with me even if I could offer her 1,000RMB of support per month. 1,500RMB tops. She said that she would be willing/ able to find a job that would bring income. (She said that up until two days ago she worked as a waitress earning an eye-popping 25RMB/ day.) If she worked every day of the month, she would make about 75% of what I was willing to offer her on the low end and 50% as much on the high end.

I am not under any illusions that this would be anything other than a regular supply of sex. And that's no problem, because it would work out to less than 400/ week that I would spend on whoring money because I would be getting regular (bareback) sex from this girl. (Her pussy is very good.)

My question to you guys is: Have you heard this sob-story before? (Knowing what I know of Chinese people, the sob stories should be fairly boilerplate.) And a couple of bells go off in my mind. 1] She had both a local cell phone and a regular one (which should not be the case for someone who was barely living at subsistence); 2] The boss said that she was one of the best girls. (But if she has only been there for two days, how would he have known that? Or was this a sale that he was trying to make?) On the other hand, she was desparate to make sure that I had both of her numbers, even going down to her locker to get one of the phones and making me dial the number that she had given me in the room so that she could make sure she would be able to capture my phone number--right in front of the front desk staff (which should have been a no-no). Then she held my hand and walked me all the way out to the taxi. From this experience (gauging the behavior of other hookers), this girl was not a hardened pro, but just someone who wanted OUT of her job.

My other question is: I am going to have to create some type of story for the Dean of the English Department. It would start out something like: "You guys have ruled out my going out with any university students, even if they are not in one of my classes. Then, I shouldn't be seen talking romantically to students from any *other* university. I've met this (non hooking, wink wink) girl at a BAR and we have talked about pursuing a trial relationship." (This would explain why she might spend a night or two at my apartment.) What story do you guys think would work best? (They seem to be very strange here: They don't want any overnight visitors, nor can you date anybody from any of the other non-affiliated institutions. Just what is a man supposed to do for vagina?)

Give me some of your experiences in this area. And what would be a good lie to come up with to move her to my apartment?

Intransit

09-12-05, 19:17

Clandestine:

In brief, yes, we've heard this story. I don't see from your description that you fell instantly in love this girl and had to have her become an immediate and seemingly permanent part of your life, so why go through all this to provide for a hard-luck case? Those who've read Intransit's posts know he's been generous and helpful to working girls in some cases, but not after he met or was with them once.

The fact is, you picked the wrong profession for the hobby that you've chosen. English teaching is a great way to nail university students (off-campus), but sucks for anything else. If you think that the university that is employing you doesn't know or sense that the girl you just brought on campus is on the game, you're wrong. The university will know everyone with whom you have lunch, nevermind who shares your pillow.

So, Intransit suggests you try to find some cheap place to stay/use off-campus, preferably away from the university area, and any girls that you come upon (figuratively), nail them there. Unless of course you decide that you want out of your contract, at which point you should do one of your students as quickly as possible to ensure that you're tossed quickly from your current institution of employment.

Csun213

09-12-05, 20:43

Cebu Local

09-12-05, 22:16

Hi
I kind of wonder,how you would want a girl you just met to move in with you.Your job is on the line here.I concede she may truly want out of the business and is looking at you as a way out.Did you ask the University if they will allow you a live in girl friend or do you want to hire her as a live in maid???.Good luck in whatever choice you make

Joinway

09-13-05, 03:05

My suggestions from my own experience are:

1) Double your budget, you would spend more and more on the girl. - But still cheaper than if you had outcall service everyday.

2) Tell the university that she is your live in maid.

3) If anything wrong, don't hesitate to let her go.

You guys please be gentle if you are going to blowtorch me for asking this, but.....

I was at a Sauna today and asked for a Sichuan girl (because they have been the provider of so many good sexual experiences in the past) and they sent me in one who was only so-so looking-- by Chinese standards that is, knowing that Chinese men will treat one or two extra pounds as morbid obesity and reject a woman because of it.

Anyway... She comes in and starts the service, but she acts very strange (such as wanting to hug and kiss). It also comes up that this is only her second day at the job and that she hates it but has to do it to support her grandmother who is off somewhere in a nursing home in Sichuan. Apparently her parents separated and seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth. Or something close to it, in terms of how much support they offer her grandmother. I asked her how much she could earn hooking and she was *very* reluctant to tell me that her boss told her that she could earn 6,000RMB per month (which doesn't make mathematical sense after the Mama-san and house taking their cut, but that's another story). I told her that I had a very nice apartment (which I do) as a condition of a contract that I've taken with a university. This is where the fun part comes in:

Over the last couple of days, the university staff have told me about 500 times to NOT look at the students. And my personal assistant has even suggested that it would be a bad idea to try to find students from the other surrounding 5 universities. I just happen to know that it would be a very bad idea to try to have a relationship on the Down Low, because there are spies EVERYWHERE. There are at least two security guards at every gate on every shift, as well. This girl solves a lot of problems all at once in that she is not a university student and said that she would be willing to live with me even if I could offer her 1,000RMB of support per month. 1,500RMB tops. She said that she would be willing/ able to find a job that would bring income. (She said that up until two days ago she worked as a waitress earning an eye-popping 25RMB/ day.) If she worked every day of the month, she would make about 75% of what I was willing to offer her on the low end and 50% as much on the high end.

I am not under any illusions that this would be anything other than a regular supply of sex. And that's no problem, because it would work out to less than 400/ week that I would spend on whoring money because I would be getting regular (bareback) sex from this girl. (Her pussy is very good.)

My question to you guys is: Have you heard this sob-story before? (Knowing what I know of Chinese people, the sob stories should be fairly boilerplate.) And a couple of bells go off in my mind. 1] She had both a local cell phone and a regular one (which should not be the case for someone who was barely living at subsistence); 2] The boss said that she was one of the best girls. (But if she has only been there for two days, how would he have known that? Or was this a sale that he was trying to make?) On the other hand, she was desparate to make sure that I had both of her numbers, even going down to her locker to get one of the phones and making me dial the number that she had given me in the room so that she could make sure she would be able to capture my phone number--right in front of the front desk staff (which should have been a no-no). Then she held my hand and walked me all the way out to the taxi. From this experience (gauging the behavior of other hookers), this girl was not a hardened pro, but just someone who wanted OUT of her job.

My other question is: I am going to have to create some type of story for the Dean of the English Department. It would start out something like: "You guys have ruled out my going out with any university students, even if they are not in one of my classes. Then, I shouldn't be seen talking romantically to students from any *other* university. I've met this (non hooking, wink wink) girl at a BAR and we have talked about pursuing a trial relationship." (This would explain why she might spend a night or two at my apartment.) What story do you guys think would work best? (They seem to be very strange here: They don't want any overnight visitors, nor can you date anybody from any of the other non-affiliated institutions. Just what is a man supposed to do for vagina?)

Give me some of your experiences in this area. And what would be a good lie to come up with to move her to my apartment?

Travel Dog

09-13-05, 03:57

Cland
Yes this is a familiar story. If you feel you want to help her and you can, go ahead. I agree with previous comments about getting off campus. You could have her get a small apartment, a few hundred RMB a month and go from there. Keep your room at the school and you can have it both ways. Also if things don’t work you can cut out any time.

My experience has been that most of the stories about supporting parents and family are true. But I have seen a few cases where girls get the extra money they want and still keep working because life in the countryside is so boring.

Good Luck
TD

Bob Builder

09-13-05, 04:44

You had better read your contract carefully where you took a vow of chastity upon joining your new post as teaching posts hold you to being whiter than snow. I don't think going to your employer with a sob story of how you're not getting pussy because you can't do any of the students is going to win you any awards.

Also the shitload of trouble the girl could cause you if you [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) her off, i.e job threatening. Be truthful to yourself, how many women really enter "your only here for me to fuck relationship" and stick to the conditions.

Considering, your job, the less anyone knows about you're colorful passtime the better.

OldAsiaHand

09-13-05, 11:06

I hit a guy at the Shenzhen border crossing on the highway from Guangzhou. He exhorted 800 RMB from me for <200 RMB damage. He would not move his car and I could not get around him or I would have just given him the 200 and bolted. If you get the police and insurance involved it is a major hassle.

The general rule of traffic accidents in China is that if you are a foreigner, you will pay as you are believed to be wealthier and can afford to pay.

Bob Builder

09-13-05, 11:15

Extorting compensation from foreign drivers or Hong Kong vehicles is a major business in China. There is no apportioning of fault, it is the usual who you are or who you know rule. You should consider yourself lucky that you did not hit someone with "WJ" plates.

Then again, you could have tried to to negotiate.

exhead

09-13-05, 12:57

Santa

09-13-05, 16:05

Maybe try, Fun in China.Com They provide translators. I'm not recommending them, I only know about their website.

Or try contacting a local university languages department.

Or ask the people you are meeting to provide a guide/translator.

Travel Dog

09-14-05, 03:03

Exhead

Unless you know and trust the company you are visiting it would be best to get your own translator representing your interests. If you have any other contacts in the area other than that company have them arrange it. For example, the hotel you are staying at might help. Or a local English school might have someone. It depends how much time you have on the ground before you meet them.

If it follows the standard pattern the company you are visiting will be with you every second. You can tell them you have another appointment and please drop you off at the hotel to get free of them.

TD

Mac 2

09-20-05, 15:41

BB,

6 months ago I was involved in an accident with a WJ.

It was quite an experience. He went out of the car and started to yell at me like, no expressions for this.

He acted like one of such little doggies that never want to stop barking.

He didn't expect that I speak chinese. so i tried to calm him down which took at least 20 minutes.

After this i made him an offer to call the police, get the yellow paper and let the insurance company pay for it as it was 100% his fault. He drove in my left side. Even the the airbag popped out!

He thought 30 mintues about it and agreed.

I was lucky this time!

Another time which was over one year ago i touched a car when I was going out backwards of a parking lot. My car wasn't damaged and his damage on a very old jetta was possibly 150RMB, I guessed.

The guard saw it and called this guy right away. He came without even looking at the damage and asked for 2000RMB.

I started to laugh. I told him that I would give him 300 max.

NO WAY! He didn't accept it. I offered him 100EURO telling that he should repare the car and give me back the rest after showing me the invoice. EURO is no money he said. He wants USD.

During this conversation many people gathered around and were demanding that I should give him 2k. It would be more than fair to him.

So I got a bit pissed and called the police. The look in his eyes was showing me, once we are alone you are dead.

Police came and i explained the story to them. I admitted that it was my fault and asked for the yellow paper again. With this I went to the insurance company and they took care of the rest. Total damge: 68.3 RMB.

I just want to say that the police can help out a lot.

Sure, you won't be lucky all the time, but in most of the cases.

Another thing is that all this is very time consuming.

Again, one of my experiences in china.

MAC2

Extorting compensation from foreign drivers or Hong Kong vehicles is a major business in China. There is no apportioning of fault, it is the usual who you are or who you know rule. You should consider yourself lucky that you did not hit someone with "WJ" plates.

Then again, you could have tried to to negotiate.

Bob Builder

09-22-05, 12:28

i was with a friend who got his mirror scratched slightly by some out of town trucker in the car park. after a lengthy standoff, we got $500 and then my friend said to me "they just paid of dim sum" and he did care that the mirror was rep001ched.

another incident with an associate who had his car scratched in a carpark. he blamed the manager of the carpark who told him to f*** off. then my associate called some people who made the carpark manager disappear. sratching cars can be a dangerous business.

mac 2, what you said happened in your cases sounds too normal and resembles too much like what happens in the outside world, but i don't doubt you.

Blacklisted

09-26-05, 03:53

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3409995.stm
by tim luard
bbc news online
china clamps down on online justice
the case of a woman bmw driver who ran over and killed a peasant farmer she had accused of scratching her luxury car has taken china by storm.

it all started on the morning of 16 october last year when a tractor pulling a load of green onions scraped the side of su xiuwen's metallic-silver bmw in a crowded market in the northern city of harbin.

ms su reportedly swore and hit out at the poor farmer and his wife who had got down from their tractor to apologise, then drove her luxury car straight into the growing crowd on the roadside, killing the farmer's wife and injuring 12 others.

exhead

09-28-05, 12:55

This may be off the subject a bit, but I am going to be in Shenyang in November and am going to need a Mandarin / English translator to be present when I'm speaking with a supplier there. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

EXThanks to those that responded to my request for a translator. An ISG member has kindly put me in touch with a person that is going to assist me in my efforts. The help that has been extended from those with experience in doing business with suppliers in China has been rewarding and helpful.

Perhaps a new section devoted to "Doing business in China to fuel your passion for International Sex Travel" would be of help to others as well.

Just a thought. ;-)

Thank you.

Ex-Cop

09-30-05, 13:18

This will be of interest to those of you that think you have a "party official" in your pocket.

http://www.financialexpress-bd.com/index3.asp?cnd=9/30/2005&section_id=26&newsid=2285&spcl=no

BEIJING, Sept 29 (AFP): Corruption in China has grown by leaps and bounds during its economic reform period and is threatening the legitimacy of the communist government, a leading global economic organisation said Thursday.
Corruption represented between 3.0 and 5.0 per cent of China's gross domestic product, or between 409 and 683 billion yuan (50-84 billion dollars) in 2004, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development said in a report.

"There were big increases in corruption from 1987-1992 which was linked to the transition process of the economy," Janos Bertok, co-author of the report, told AFP.
"For the rest of the 1990s the level of corruption did not let up ... as China's economy grows the opportunities for corruption also grow."

The government was keenly aware of the problem to its legitimacy and was trying not to only punish corrupt officials but also build a system that prevents graft, he said.

From 1993 to 1997 China investigated 387,352 cases of corruption involving 54,805 officials, the report said, citing Chinese statistics.
Its publication came during an ongoing international symposium on the "Anti-Corruption Initiative for Asia and the Pacific," co-sponsored by the Asian Development Bank, the OECD and the Chinese government.

China was eager to host the meeting to establish better cooperation with other nations as it seeks to repatriate corrupt officials who have fled aboard with vast sums, Frederic Wehrle, coordinator of the OECD anti-corruption initiative and co-author of the report, told AFP.
"China wants to improve international cooperation so that they can bring some of these corrupt officials back and recover the lost assets," Wehrle said.

China has extradition treaties with 19 countries, but not with Canada and the United States where many officials have fled, he said.

In the first half of 2003 alone more than 8,300 officials fled the country and another 6,500 disappeared within China to escape prosecution for corruption and embezzlement, the report said.

"Roughly two-thirds of the fugitives were senior executives of state-owned enterprises (and) between 8.75 billion dollars and 50 billion dollars were supposedly brought out of the country in recent years," it said.

Low conviction rates compared to the number of initiated investigations into corruption suggested the current framework for law enforcement was inadequate in effectively addressing corruption and bribery offences, the report said.

Only 10 to 20 per cent of corruption cases were solved, and only 6.6 per cent of Communist Party officials who were disciplined for corruption received any criminal punishment, it said, citing Chinese academics.

According to statistics published by the Supreme People's Procuratorate, the country's top prosecutorial body, more than 42,000 cases of corruption involving officials were investigated in 2004, down from 64,000 cases in 1995, it said.

"Despite significant efforts from the CPC (Communist Party) and government leaders, corruption remains a serious problem for both citizens and businesses, particularly for foreign direct investment," the paper concludes.

Tinybobo1002

10-01-05, 16:01

Ex-Cop, Corruption is a huge problem in China, which is the reason they remain as a third world country and we can take advantage of their women. We don't need to tell those seasoned mongers, because what they need is information to find women at the right time at the right price. Please share with us your mongering experience in China.

About a month ago, I talked about Asiafriendfinder. I successfully connected with a woman in Guangzhou. She told me she had to pay 4,500 RMB for membership and registration with a match-making agency, which posted her information on AFF. She had to pay 10,000 RMB to see me at the airport, accompanied by the agent. After paying such a amount, she did everything possible to please me on the bed, hoping I will agree to marry her.

Does anybody have similar experience? 14,500 RMB is a lot of money.

Frisk

10-01-05, 16:05

That is sad, shall we hold a collection for her?

Ex-Cop, Corruption is a huge problem in China, which is the reason they remain as a third world country and we can take advantage of their women. We don't need to tell those seasoned mongers, because what they need is information to find women at the right time at the right price. Please share with us your mongering experience in China.

About a month ago, I talked about Asiafriendfinder. I successfully connected with a woman in Guangzhou. She told me she had to pay 4,500 RMB for membership and registration with a match-making agency, which posted her information on AFF. She had to pay 10,000 RMB to see me at the airport, accompanied by the agent. After paying such a amount, she did everything possible to please me on the bed, hoping I will agree to marry her.

Does anybody have similar experience? 14,500 RMB is a lot of money.

Bill Lee

10-01-05, 17:17

You know the PRC can shut down this board for those still inside the country. So let's stay away from politics on this board? No talk of corruption or the government? Please?

Just my personal opinion
Bill

Phil1980

10-01-05, 18:31

About a month ago, I talked about Asiafriendfinder. I successfully connected with a woman in Guangzhou. She told me she had to pay 4,500 RMB for membership and registration with a match-making agency, which posted her information on AFF. She had to pay 10,000 RMB to see me at the airport, accompanied by the agent. After paying such a amount, she did everything possible to please me on the bed, hoping I will agree to marry her.

Does anybody have similar experience? 14,500 RMB is a lot of money.Tatyu,

I have met several women from AFF in China, none of them told me a similar story, are you sure she wasn't bullshitting you to arouse your sympathy and gain some advantage from you?

If you make contacts over AFF you normally have private e-mail correspondence with the ladies, for what do you need an agent?

Bob Builder

10-03-05, 08:45

Tatyu,

After hearing such as story and getting primo service, did you agree to marry her or pay her anything at all? Did you have to pay the agent?

As to the posting by an agent. This is not the first time I have heard this as there are other sites which are free to browse with emails and contact numbers but they normally lead to an agent that will get you in touch for a price. You can see by the grammar of the postings that the descriptions are not written by local Chinese women.

Tinybobo1002

10-03-05, 23:05

I have used AFF for a few years, and have good success rate with mature non-pros at their early 30s. It was my first experience I was connected with a match-making agent. I have the agent's address and telephone number. She told me at the airport if I was not satisfied with this one, she could hook me up with others, free of charge of course. She even offered me another "date" the following evening, but I declined. Apparently, her source of income is not from me or anyone overseas.

Wedding? No way. I am married with a happy family. It seems I am too "sick" to return to the pros. Any referral to a psychiatrist?

DayNight

10-04-05, 02:44

You know the PRC can shut down this board for those still inside the country. So let's stay away from politics on this board? No talk of corruption or the government?

The communist party in China did many good things and does work quite efficiently. Just open your eyes and look, before they came to power prostitution and corruption was everywhere. The single biggest thing they did was to rid China of prostitution.

Blacklisted

10-04-05, 12:35

I guess the only reason it's still accessible is so 'they' can gather info? Guess they're probably more interested in threats, not guys after what Confucius refers to as 'a natural bodily function', like eating.

We're harmless, truly....

Bill Lee

10-04-05, 13:53

They are probably gathering info but let's not have the spotlight on us. Internet cafes get shut down over such talk. So let's make sure we don't fall into that area. Some people in high places will not consider us harmless when board's topic change to include their acitivities. Beside this is The International Sex Guide, so let's keep clean (he he he).

Bill

I guess the only reason it's still accessible is so 'they' can gather info? Guess they're probably more interested in threats, not guys after what Confucius refers to as 'a natural bodily function', like eating.

We're harmless, truly....

Didier5810

10-04-05, 16:41

Dear All,

DO you know the difference between the corruption in developped countries
and developing ones?

In developed countries:

Corruption is inside the higher level with huge amount of money.

In developing countries:

Corruption is everywhere very often with small amount of money

This gives an illusion that developped countries are cleaner. But the reality is another story, thinking about Bush familiy ...

Didier

Silly Puppy

10-04-05, 21:58

"The communist party in China did many good things and does work quite efficiently. Just open your eyes and look, before they came to power prostitution and corruption was everywhere. The single biggest thing they did was to rid China of prostitution."

I guess they did a good thing in getting rid of 30 milions people in the Cultural Revolution, too. Remember the Tiananmen square event in 1989? At least in pre-communist era there were no such huge massacre. Good or bad is only a matter of your or my preference.

However, I agree that we should not talk about politics in this board. This is the place to talk about Chinese women and how to fuck/love/or live with them.

Phil1980

10-04-05, 22:20

The communist party in China did many good things and does work quite efficiently. Just open your eyes and look, before they came to power prostitution and corruption was everywhere. The single biggest thing they did was to rid China of prostitution.Was this meant sarcastically?

I agree that it's better not to talk about politics, though. In contrast to some places like Africa, China is actually a pretty efficient dictatorship, probably they have some really smart people monitoring this board right now.

Prince Leo

10-05-05, 02:01

James,

Have you read any history about China since 1900? People's lives, in general has improved dramatically since the Communist Party took over. The killings that were done by the warlords during the Socialist Reign, with majority of which were not reported, are much more than, what was claimed in 1989. I also wonder how many deaths has the US caused in Iraq. How many lives are ruined in the Middle East. Or look at it from another POV, how many lives has the Communist Party improved and saved since they came to power. My political view should end here.

"The communist party in China did many good things and does work quite efficiently. Just open your eyes and look, before they came to power prostitution and corruption was everywhere. The single biggest thing they did was to rid China of prostitution."

I guess they did a good thing in getting rid of 30 milions people in the Cultural Revolution, too. Remember the Tiananmen square event in 1989? At least in pre-communist era there were no such huge massacre. Good or bad is only a matter of your or my preference.

However, I agree that we should not talk about politics in this board. This is the place to talk about Chinese women and how to fuck/love/or live with them.

Silly Puppy

10-05-05, 04:22

I read a lot not only about China but also world history. And if you notice, ALL countries (with very few exceptions), not only China, since 1900 have become dramatically better. Take Thailand as an example, European countries, the US, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, or even countries in Middle East , etc as others. So saying thanks to the PRC that China has become better is kind of naive. If you want to compare let's compare China and Taiwan; North Korea and South Korea, East vs West Germany. That would be a fair comparison.
When records of killing innocent people by warlords were not kept well, same thing happened during the Czar reign in Russia, the systematical killings of innocent people (their own people ) by Mao and Stalin are 2nd to none.
On matter about US intervention in the Middle East I completely agree with you.

Phil1980

10-05-05, 04:42

I agree with you, James Tran, I never understood the kowtowing of most Mainland Chinese to Mao, even to this day.

Prince Leo

10-05-05, 07:20

Well, I was really looking at the period of 20 to 25 years. From the late 1930s to the 1950s. There was a drastic change within China. I don't think any country, especially the ones with the size and/or population of China has improved the lives of the general public to the degree that China has.

I read a lot not only about China but also world history. And if you notice, ALL countries (with very few exceptions), not only China, since 1900 have become dramatically better. Take Thailand as an example, European countries, the US, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, or even countries in Middle East , etc as others. So saying thanks to the PRC that China has become better is kind of naive. If you want to compare let's compare China and Taiwan; North Korea and South Korea, East vs West Germany. That would be a fair comparison.
When records of killing innocent people by warlords were not kept well, same thing happened during the Czar reign in Russia, the systematical killings of innocent people (their own people ) by Mao and Stalin are 2nd to none.
On matter about US intervention in the Middle East I completely agree with you.

Prince Leo

10-05-05, 07:30

Phil,

I don't think most Mainland Chinese kowtow to Mao. I, for one, do not do so. Mao has made many serious mistakes in his reign, especially, the latter stages of his life. But do give the man some credit of overturning the Socialist Party and successfully leading an underarmed and mostly untrained armies to defeat the Japanese. Without him, China would be in a much worse state.

By the way, I am educated in the US, so I am not what some idiots called "brainwashed" by the communists. IMHO, I think your view of Mainland Chinese is too generalized and too negative. It is like saying that all people from HK are trouble-makers. Would that be fair? I don't think so. Open your eyes, kid, and see the world with an open mind.

I agree with you, James Tran, I never understood the kowtowing of most Mainland Chinese to Mao, even to this day.

Phil1980

10-05-05, 11:25

Kunshan

10-05-05, 12:32

Hi Guys,

Although very interesting to many may I strongly suggest that the discussion on politics stops now.

Phil1980

10-05-05, 15:42

Hi Guys,

Although very interesting to many may I strongly suggest that the discussion on politics stops now.Ok, I won't say anymore, which is kind of revealing of the situation in itself.

Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to provide for the exchange of information between Men on the subject of finding Women for Sex.

Let's get back to the subject.

Thank You,

Jackson

Silly Puppy

10-05-05, 16:03

I am telling you no matter how bad a regime is there are always some bright spots about it. I've lived in different systems; from dictatorship to communist to Muslim to capitalist and witnessed many things. I know which system is the worst and my experience is based on real life, not on books. So if you are telling me this communist system is better than others I have to disagree.

There are plenty of examples to prove there are many countries within a very short period of time have become much better since 1945. Taiwan, Japan , and South Korea are clear examples. By the same token there are examples to prove there are others have become much worse such as some unfortunate African countries. But that is not the point. The point is in principle there are fundamentally many wrong things with the communist system. If not their government'd not twist and turn to become what they are now. If not the Soviet and Eatern Europe block 'd not collapse in 1989.

I'd care less about the possibility of having this site being blocked by the PRC so folks in China can't access it. That is just another evidence about freedom oppression and harrassment that this system is notorious for. For the forum's sake I now stop my 2 cent thoughts on politics. Ciao!

Santa

10-06-05, 07:56

Ultimately, what sex is really about is death, and the necessity of reproduction.

As the poets have mournfully sung
Death takes the innocent young
The exceedingly funny
Those rolling in money
And those who are very well hung!

Alex Rock

10-08-05, 07:59

Biologically speaking, the first sex was when one single celled protozoan ate another and accidentally it's genes didn't get digested but formed a new organism.

Dickystiffy

10-08-05, 15:23

Do you need male or female interpret? How long will it take?

I can recommend a man or a girl for you to chose. If you need, please PM me.

Dicky

This may be off the subject a bit, but I am going to be in Shenyang in November and am going to need a Mandarin / English translator to be present when I'm speaking with a supplier there. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

EX

Lao Ma

10-18-05, 04:15

I'm sure that most here know that China has a huge percentage of the world's Hepatitis B positive people - over 35%, more or less. And I'm sure everyone knows that over 50% of the people in China who are positive are not aware they have it, and are asymptomatic. And that the Hepatitis B virus is 100 times more easily spread than the HIV virus.

Well, I didn't know that until my doctor recently told me, so today I started the 3 shot hepatitis A and B vaccination series. I have a big needle phobia, but I figured a little fear is worth it. Hep b is a one way ticket to a really shitty life, with future liver failure, cirrohsis, and possibly liver cancer.

I strongly suggest anyone who lives here consider getting this vaccination. According the the CDC, it's the only cancer vaccination in the world, and there are really no major reasons NOT to get it. Although uncovered is a no-no for me, stuff happens, condoms break, and all that, so why not.

Just my two cents.

John Siron

10-18-05, 06:19

Get the 10 year shots... I think its 3 shots within a month or 2 and you'll be covered for 10 years.

Omar78

10-18-05, 06:38

I visited my Doctor 2 mos ago for a routine annual phsyical.

When he heard I was traveling to China, he immediately wrote Rx for;

Tetanus vaccine - 1 shot

Hapatitis B - 3 shots in months 0, 1 @ 6. (i.e. Jan 1, Feb 1 and July 1.) It will last 10 years, is administered into your arm and the needle is small. Barely hurts.

Omar

Lao Ma

10-18-05, 06:44

I did - it's the first shot, then the second one on 30 days, then the third one after another 6 months.

I did the combination A/B, even tho A is not a chronic disease, just because I could, and it wasn't much more money.

Gotta admit tho, to be honest, it was the most painful shot I have ever gotten. The nurse really rammed that needle into my arm deep

Kunshan

10-18-05, 06:47

Its a bit off topic (sex) but in the vicinity of getting vaccinations,, have any of you guys who are living here, especially in south China had any ideas about what you would do in case of a bird flu in humans crises?

I just kept to myself during SARS (own car, ate at home, small office etc) but I guess that if the shit really hits the fan with bird flu that the situation might be much worse?

As for vaccinations I suggest that apart from Hep A,B that Jap Encephalitis is also a good one to get.

Weelock

10-18-05, 10:39

Bird Flu Virus,

Actually when it related to mongering, I recall when SARS hit the world, people were afraid of going out and traveling. All tourists industry ( hotels, airlines) were hit hard, especially in China and South East Asia. China at first tried to cover it up. I remember airline tickets were ONLY about $250-275USD ROUND TRIP from USA but nobody wanted to go. I think there was a 70-80% change you will die if you catch it. I don't know the numbers for Bird Flu but I would guess it's about 35%. It's not as bad are SARS but it could mutate to a killer virus. SARS mutated from civet cats to humans. Currently, they are mainly concerned about wild birds getting the virius and spreading it to domestic birds.

I was NOT in China at the time but was told and read prices really dropped considerably for girls. I was a little surprised when I was told by another monger. A lot of girls were desperate since they still need to make a living. There were less girls but they still could be found. Most Johns were not as desperate to risk their lives. If the situation gets as worst for the Bird Flu Virus, I would assume again, prices would drop. Hopefully a vacine is found soon.

For the last three years, the hotel Lisboa in Macau, borders in Hong Kong and Singapore, are taking scans for temperature. Do we need to start getting thermometer for the girls as another form of protection, HA, HA ?

Weelock

OldAsiaHand

10-18-05, 14:09

I was NOT in China at the time but was told and read prices really dropped considerably for girls. I was a little surprised when I was told by another monger.

Weelock

Weelock,

I wore a mask for protection. I was a fool, but am addicted to the hobby.

OAH

Lao Ma

10-18-05, 14:30

I have a medical source for Tamiflu if I need it, it's the only antidote at this point that MAY work.

But I also have ethical problems with that solution, and if this thing really does become a pandemic, I'll have to see how much is available here in Beijing. I can get it because of a connection; but if there is a big shortage, I'd rather the doseage I could acquire go to a child or pregnant woman.

Plus there are some reports that if it mutates Tamiflu may not be effective.

John Siron

10-18-05, 18:33

Mmm... my doctors back home in America and Canada are quite gentle... I wonder what's wrong with them here?

Gotta admit tho, to be honest, it was the most painful shot I have ever gotten. The nurse really rammed that needle into my arm deep

Intransit

10-23-05, 04:15

Hepatitis A & B vaccines are good to have, especially in China. They don't cost much, they last for 10 years once the cycle is complete, and they are almost painless. Considering the consequences of getting either--serious pain, long recovery, liver damage, and even death--it's not a biggie.

As for avian flu, the best thing to do is read the information that's available. The World Health Organization does a good job on this kind of thing [http://www.who.int/en/]. Right now, good common sense applies: wash hands regularly, don't touch your eyes, get a flu shot. WHO said long before anyone in China did that regular hand washing, not surgical or other oral-nasal masks, was the best preventative measure against SARS. Follow the hand wash by drying your hands with paper towels or cloth. Hot air hand dryers are NOT sufficient to kill bacteria--the temperature at which they operate is not high enough (your hands would be burned if it were) to kill germs, and may actually encourage bacteria growth. If you really want to be safe in a restroom, do your business, then wash your hands thoroughly, dry them with paper towels or cloth, then use the paper towel or cloth to open the bathroom door--the inside door handle is a real hotspot for bacteria transmission. Also, those small bottles of Purell or other hand sanitizing gel are very effective and easy to carry, but haven't been as easy to find in China since the end of SARS. Disinfecting hand wipes work well also.

I am not a physician and the above information is provided for entertainment and reference purposes only.

Albert Punter

10-24-05, 16:46

Just read this article.
Is this one of the reason Chinese girls like to have sex with foreigners ?

CHONGQING, Oct. 23 (Xinhuanet) -- About a quarter of Chinese women are not satisfied with wedlock sexual intercourse, according to the result of a nationwide online poll released here Sunday.

The poll showed that 54.2 percent of the female interviewees said sexual life played a significant role in marriage, but a quarter of women admitted they were discontented about the qualityof sexual intercourse with their husbands.

However, only 10 percent of men who responded to the online survey, jointly launched by Chinese Medical Association and Chinese Sex Science Society in August 2004, had such complaints.

"Traditional Chinese moral concepts require women to be restrained and behave in a reserved manner, but men are more active in sexual life," said Ma Xiaonian, director of Chinese Sex Science Society, who disclosed the poll result at a forum on sex medicine in this municipality in southwest China.

In ancient China, men played a dominant role in social issues, politics, families, and sexual affairs. Women were usually regarded as passive service providers in sex and their role was to satisfy men.

About 12.4 percent of Chinese women seldom or have never had sexual pleasure, but the ratio for men was merely 3.4 percent, thesurvey showed.

"This indicates that a large number of Chinese women have problems in sexual life," said Ma, stressing that sexual satisfaction does not only means physical pleasure."

Eaglestar

10-25-05, 08:08

Nice, interesting post about sexual dissatisfaction among married Chinese women. Maybe that is part of the reason for some of us having success with "feeebies". HUH?

Tinybobo1002

10-26-05, 01:32

The survey only reflects the poor academic standard in China. First, online survey is always a joke. There is no control over the sampled population. Second, men are always inferior. Biologically, we can never satisfy women, no matter we can foreplay for an hour and bang her for another. Wake up and smell the coffee. Whenever I have sex, I just want to satisfy myself, not her. I recall about 15 years ago, there was a similar survey in my home country, Canada, and the results were similar.

In China, sex, family life, politics and money are all linked together. Please dont be naive that you or I have a bigger dig and can bang for hours to satisfy Chinese women.

The issue of freebie is more sophisticated than this.

Albert Punter

10-26-05, 12:26

I agree with you about how surveys and statistics are conducted.

However, I disagree about our ability to satisfy women.
Obviously whenever a human being engages into sexual activities, target is to find pleasure.
Fortunately some human beings enjoy partner's pleasure other than their own pleasure, and are willing to help partner in achieving what they want.

What you say about men may apply to women as well.
In my life I had met women who were interested only in getting f++++d to achieve orgasm and they did not care about mine.
Men are lucky as sooner or later they get there anyhow.

Bob Builder

10-26-05, 14:37

While a great number of women are not satisfied, they are not going to jump any available Lao Wei handy and the it does not mean that the corresponding number of men are unhappy due to the brisk trade at BBS, OKs, Saunas, etc.

If wifey isn't into BBBJCFIM, walk down the road to the local BBS and I'm sure you will find some teenage cutie that is for RMB150.

AquaSponge1

10-27-05, 01:47

Hi guys,

I am relocating to Shenzhen and I need help on getting a serviced apartment as well as leasing a car. I would most appreciate if you can PM me with information.

This move is going to happen real soon in less than 1 month so I need all the help I can get. I am currently in Shanghai.

Dickystiffy

11-01-05, 08:29

Dear Guys:

Really sorry for my fault and thanks for all the guys's suggestions. I apologize. I recommend a reliable and free pussy information sex website for your enjoy: www.m6xx.com (it is chinese and need register free)If you need translate partly,please let me know.

Dicky

John Siron

11-02-05, 11:10

I didn't know we were allowed to post telephone numbers or website references. Maybe I'm wrong.

Website suggestion. Cut out that music crap. It makes your company look small and Chinese. Your target audience are probably wholesalers and distributors, not young teeny boppers looking for a makeup case.

If you wrote a business plan before starting the factory, you probably already have a good idea who your cilents are... I hope! Try listing your services on alibaba and attending some gift and premiums trade shows. That is probably a decent start.

I have started a new factory to make all kinds of boxes,but wondering how to find the real clients,the details on:www.meiyumei.com

Lao Ma

11-02-05, 11:32

Dickeystiff, your post IS a violation of forum rules. Pasted from the rules section:

No Self-Promotion: Please do not post any messages anywhere on this site that are primarily for the promotion or advertising of any website, forums, email address, business, multi-level marketing activity, or other entities that you have an affiliation with EXCEPT in the classified advertising section.

do the right thing and delete your message. In addition, in my opinion, you should not be posting a link to your factory on a sex website - it can only cause trouble.

Dyson

11-02-05, 15:17

I have a question concerning my visa. I'm on a 6 month F visa and I have a feeling that I'm only allowed a maximum stay of 30 days at any one time. Normally I work in China on a Z visa but this job I do now, my agent put me on an F visa. The last time I came into China was 6th September. It only dawned on me when I was reading posts on this forum this evening. Does anyone have any advice on the rights and wrongs of this?

Regards,

Dyson

Moody

11-03-05, 16:00

Dyson,

Look at your visa. It will say whether you have a 30 day limit or not. Some F visa have 60 day stay limit. If indeed you did overstay by almost a month, you're most likely gonna go to jail for about 10 years. Ok, I'm kidding about that. Anyway, a friend of mine once overstayed by about a week and nothing happened to him when he left. They just stamped his passport and let him through. The next day when he returned, everything was also normal and nothing was said. I also once overstayed the 30 day limit by 2 days. Again nothing happened. I get the feeling you should be ok, but you never know. I would call your embassy to ask what you should do.

moody

I have a question concerning my visa. I'm on a 6 month F visa and I have a feeling that I'm only allowed a maximum stay of 30 days at any one time. Normally I work in China on a Z visa but this job I do now, my agent put me on an F visa. The last time I came into China was 6th September. It only dawned on me when I was reading posts on this forum this evening. Does anyone have any advice on the rights and wrongs of this?

Regards,

Dyson

Bill Lee

11-03-05, 17:32

A friend of mine got fined couple of thousand RMB and detained couple of hours for overstaying couple of weeks on his China visa at the exit point of the China border. He never knew that he had a 30 day visa.

It may not happen to everybody but play it safe and go by the book.

Bill

I have a question concerning my visa. I'm on a 6 month F visa and I have a feeling that I'm only allowed a maximum stay of 30 days at any one time. Normally I work in China on a Z visa but this job I do now, my agent put me on an F visa. The last time I came into China was 6th September. It only dawned on me when I was reading posts on this forum this evening. Does anyone have any advice on the rights and wrongs of this?

Regards,

Dyson

Superforce99

11-04-05, 07:15

Dyson,

I was actually in the same situation a couple of months ago when I still had an F visa. Apparently, all F visas are now 30 days maximum stay, and I kind of forgot about this and overstayed by 9 days. The next time I crossed from Shenzhen into Hong Kong, I got stopped at Immigration and sent into a "waiting room" for about 20 minutes. Some immigration official explained that this was my first violation so I get off with a warning. She also said something about 10 days but I wasn't exactly sure what. I was trying to pretend that I didn't know Chinese and forced her to use English, but apparently, she decided I did understand and spoken quickly near the end of her lecture. My guess is that since my violation was less than 10 days, I didn't get a fine. The last thing she said in English was, "Next time you give money" and then she broke into Chinese.

On a related note, maybe foreshadowing my experience, about 4 months ago, there was a British National in front of me as I was going from SZ to HK and his Z visa had expired for about 5 months. He had his air ticket ready and bags packed back to the UK I assume and was absolutely irate that China immigration wouldn't let him go and especially when the immigration officer started talking about "daily fines for overstay." First he played dumb, then pleaded, then got really angry and was shouting all sorts of uncalled-for things. Two security dragged him and his bags to some waiting room.

Dyson, my advise is you take care of this locally IN CHINA. Find some person who works in the PSB or is connected to someone in the PSB and pay them to adjust your visa status. Last year, an English teacher friend of mine did this through one of his student's parents who worked in the PSB. He overstayed about two months and had to pay about 5000 RMB for the adjustment, but that's better than the official 60,000 RMB figure you'll get at the border (I think it's 1000 RMB per overstayed day). And the sooner you resolve this, the better and cheaper.

Good luck

Johnny

DayNight

11-04-05, 07:42

I have a question concerning my visa. I'm on a 6 month F visa and I have a feeling that I'm only allowed a maximum stay of 30 days....

What do you mean "the feeling"? Look in your passport, open the visa page. Look for "Duration of each stay ___ Days after entry". So what does say where "___" is?

Nothing? Then you can stay till the last day of your visa. "030"? Then I agree with below and would solve that in China - TODAY.

I once overstayed 1 days. The border dude gave me the 'looks' and said something about overstaying. My first idea was to make a big fuzz. My second idea was to look sad and say 'sorry'. Did, and that was it.

PS: And DON'T follow Johnnykon666 - he was just lucky, VERY lucky!

Sammy_T

11-04-05, 07:56

What do you mean "the feeling"? Look in your passport, open the visa page. Look for "Duration of each stay ___ Days after entry". So what does say where "___" is?

Nothing? Then you can stay till the last day of your visa. "030"? Then I agree with below and would solve that in China - TODAY.

I once overstayed 1 days. The border dude gave me the 'looks' and said something about overstaying. My first idea was to make a big fuzz. My second idea was to look sad and say 'sorry'. Did, and that was it.

I have had 2 friends from the USA on 2 different occasions overstay their visa by just a few days thinking they could just sneek through - didn't happen. Each time they were told that to exit China they would need to go back into Beijing to the Public Security Bureau and extend their visa and pay a fine. Needless to say, they missed their flight and the hassle was much worse than the fine.

If you have overstayed go to the PSB before you go to the airport and pay the fine, then you will be allowed to leave.

Sammy

Dyson

11-04-05, 11:07

Thanks for the replies to my query.

The reason why I had 'a feeling' something was wrong was because I couldn't have access to my passport at the time. I'd read a string in this forum regarding visa's, where I read the 30 day rule and it suddenly made me think about my own passport. I've since had my visa faxed to me and there is no max duration of stay marked on the visa. It's a 6 month visa and I can stay for up to 6 months.

Thanks again to all those that offered advice.

Dyson

John Siron

11-04-05, 13:07

Yup. Happened to me. I got sick the week I was supposed to renew my visa and I forgot all about it until 2 weeks later.

Luckily we have guanxi with the guys at the visa office. Lady told me that I was lucky I had some hospital bills to show I was sick and that I won't be so lucky next time. Renewed my visa and then said, "you only get a free pass once, cause it's in the records now". Zero dollar fine. She was very nice about it, but then I assume it's cause we have the right connections.

Dyson, my advise is you take care of this locally IN CHINA. Find some person who works in the PSB or is connected to someone in the PSB and pay them to adjust your visa status. Last year, an English teacher friend of mine did this through one of his student's parents who worked in the PSB. He overstayed about two months and had to pay about 5000 RMB for the adjustment, but that's better than the official 60,000 RMB figure you'll get at the border (I think it's 1000 RMB per overstayed day). And the sooner you resolve this, the better and cheaper.

Mike B

11-11-05, 19:39

Mao Dun

11-12-05, 15:03

This is a response to a thread started by Moody in the Picture Gallery, and an attempt, if the thread continues, to move it here. Here's a link to Moody's last comment:

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=407393&postcount=3120

Basically the argument is that hardly anyone in China speaks English, and he finds it frustrating that he can't get anyone to understand "KFC" and "Coca-cola." First of all, as an educator, I am witnessing a growing influx of undergraduates and high school students coming directly from China, perhaps in the hundreds or even thousands nationwide in the USA, and they all have extraordinarily good English, and this is not due to contact with expats or whatever, they are learning it in school, and learning it well. Secondly, you state that "they don't know what the sign says" at the KFC, but if you observe closely, the sign is bilingual and you will not find many people who don't know that the sign says "Kendeji," the Chinese transliteration for Kentucky. Even Chinese who do not know English know the English alphabet, so I doubt they don't know that the sign says "KFC," but they probably don't know or don't care why it says that. Similarly, you might not get very far with "Coca-cola," but everyone knows what "kele" is. There is nothing peculiar to me that these international companies have met local communities halfway by providing them with official names for their companies and products in the local language, but it does seem strange that a long-term foreign visitor would not meet the Chinese halfway by learning a dozen or so such localized terms, or expect that people who eat at KFC be able to understand English terms that they have no need for.

Finally, if you think that English is limited to expat/foreign tourist areas only (and by that, you mean only spoken by the foreigners, or the Chinese who deal with them as well?), it seems clear to me that you have never visited a Chinese university campus. Go to Beijing University, Beijing Normal University, or Qinghua University (they're nice campuses, it's like walking in a beautiful park), and ask your way to the library. . . see if that stumps anyone.

Lil Big Horn

11-13-05, 17:10

Mr. Dun,

Interesting points and arguments!

After deeply thinking about your points, I realized that what I cared about is the following:

As an educator, do you ever nail your female students?

or do you strictly stay with the pros?

Just wondering what educators do?

Please elucidate.

lbh

Moody

11-13-05, 17:41

Maybe it's different up in Beijing, but take my word for it, it's not like that here in Shenzhen and Dongguan. This is how bad it is. You would think people would know the English name of the newest and biggest 5 star hotel in the city. Guess again. I forgot the Chinese name of the hotel and had to ask for directions once. I asked more than 10 people. None of them understood me. I finally called up a friend and asked him for the Chinese name. I shit you not, I could be standing across the street from the Sheraton in Houjie and literally ask someone who works at the hotel, "where is the Sheraton?" They won't understand me. Maybe down south we're just full o' country folk, but there is VERY little English spoken here.

Also, I do speak some Mandarin. I've been coming to South China regularly for more than 3 years now. I'll be the first to admit that my Mandarin ability leaves quite a bit to be desired. My vocabulary is probably similar to a 5 year old and I frequently forget the tones, but I can pretty much make myself be understood. It's true I won't be having any political or philosophical discussions anytime soon, but I can speak and understand enough to have basic conversation with just about anyone.

Finally, as for me visiting Beijing University, or Beijing Normal University, or Qinghua University, it's probably not gonna happen any time soon since I would have to take a 3 hour plane ride. I did however visit Shenzhen University. Back when I first started coming here regularly, I figured the University would be the best place to find a translator. Long story short, I didn't find anyone acceptable. Like I said, maybe English is common in Beijing, but believe me when I say this, it's pretty hard to find it where I am. I'm also fairly certain guys in other parts of China (with the exception of Shanghai) will report the same experience.

Moody

11-13-05, 17:49

I should point out one other thing. I've never believed the Chinese should learn to speak English. In the US, we're not expected to learn Chinese, so why should they learn English? The thing that boggles my mind is that people here don't recognize something they see every day. They see the Coke cans, but they can't read what it says, only the Chinese translation. It further boggles my mind that when someone says "Coca-Cola," that they can't figure out they mean "Kekou-Kele." It's not like they don't sound alike. If I was working at a restaurant in the US and someone came up to me and asked for a "Kekou-Kele," I'm pretty sure I could figure out they wanted a Coke. But not here. Hell, half the time I say "Kekou-Kele" they can't figure out what I want because I'm not getting the tones right. But it's all ok, because China has more than enough other ways to compensate for this minor hassle.

Nice Guy 99

11-13-05, 19:04

My time in China is spent primarily in the Sichuan area and I agree it is difficult to make yourself understood in English or poorly pronounced Mandarin. But ... I think there are two reasons that haven't been touched.

Chinese people, outside of family, often treat each other rudely by western standards. For example, a native Chinese may ask the clerk in a department store where something is and be told that the clerk doesn't know ... or, a native Chinese may ask directions and be told something wrong. In many cases this is a reflection of a "I don't want to be bothered with you" attitude so people refuse to answer something they obviously should know or the give some BS answer just to get rid of them, so even if they understand you they may just want to blow you off.

Second, Chinese people don't want to be embarassed or lose face. They may have studied English for four years in school and probably understand some or even most of what you are asking but ... they don't want to make a mistake, they don't want to look stupid ... so they blow you off.

Of course the above are generalizations and only apply sometime, but I think they apply often enough that they should be in the back of our laowei minds.

Bec26

11-14-05, 04:38

Does anybody know if its possible to watch any NFL games in China? I know in Thailand there are several stations that carry the games.

Dyson

11-14-05, 08:00

Dyson,

As you may know, technically a visa only states when (and how many times) you may ENTER a country, though some may restrict how long each visit may be. The fact that there is no "max duration" noted on your visa means nothing. When you enter China, the immigration officer will either stamp your passport with the actual time limit, or attach a document stating the same. The time limit may be significantly shorter OR longer than the visa period.

Bottom line: you can't tell how long you're permitted to stay by looking at your visa. You need to look at any stamp or document the immigration officer affixed to your passport. For a 6-month F visa, the standard duration of each stay is 30 days. For a 2-year F visa, the standard duration is 90 days.Mike B,

Thanks for your response and all those that responded previously too.

I went from Shekou to Hong Kong last Saturday because I had an appointment there I held my breath as the immigration officer took my passport but apart from her pleasant smile, no handcuffs, arm-wrestling - nothing. I returned from HK the same afternoon and all is well. I'd been in China for approx 9 weeks on my 'F' visa without a time limit indicated on the visa and with no duration stamped into my passport either.

Thanks again

Dyson

Bob Builder

11-14-05, 10:40

Moody,

You make think it is obvious and think things sound similar but you may be totally tone deaf.

I know someone with the same problem as his preferred drink is "Sprite". He has been in China for over 10 years and every time I have dined out with hime and he tries to pronounce it in Chinese, I swear I sit there in anticipation of the waiter's answer "WHAT"? He hasn't learnt to pronounce 2 syllables of Chinese properly in 10 years.

Or maybe they don't have it as they sell only Pepsi which technically is not Coca-cola.

Local Expert

11-14-05, 11:34

Moody

11-14-05, 11:34

Hmmm... You might be right. I might be totally tone deaf, but how does a tone deaf person know he's tone deaf? A person blind from birth has no concept of what colors are. He just knows they exist from hearing about it. That said however, I have no problems saying "xue bi," accent on the "bi." I think if you say it wrong, the "xue" referring to blood and the "bi" referring to a part of the female anatomy, it's a slang term for virgin. Perhaps that's why your friend get's the "what" response...

Moody,

You make think it is obvious and think things sound similar but you may be totally tone deaf.

Moody

11-14-05, 12:10

Gentlemen:

I might start to live and work in Beijing next year. Allow me to ask some questions in line with the topic of this sub-board:

a) Housing: How much to I need to pay for a 3-4 bedroom flat, constructed in accordance with western standards in a safe area ? Is it true that foreigners have to stay in special "foreigner buildings" where the monthly rent can be up to 10.000 USD ?

Although there are some places that will cost 10K per month (even here in Shenzhen they exist), you should be able to find something nice about 150-200SqM for around $1000-$2000USD depending on location and other specifics. It can be even cheaper if the place doesn't have certain amenities like a swimming pool or large common grounds or is unfurnished. It can be much much cheaper if you don't mind living in an old building on a high floor with no elevator. You can stay anywhere, you're not limited to certain "foreigner" building.

b) Language: Will it be enough for me to learn Chinese with the "pinyin" transscript or do I need to learn 4.000 characters as well in order to understand road- and other signs ?

Life will be much easier for you if you can learn some basic Mandarin. Road signs will pretty much all have pinyin and a good number of commercial establishments will have English on them, but don't count on it. I'm guessing that a lot more English is used in Beijing than in South China where I am. Even if a lot more English is used, learning some Mandarin will help a lot.

c) Safety: Is Beijing safe ? Will you get robbed around every second corner ?

Probably as safe as any other big city. It's not like the wild wild west out here. Since there are no guns, odds are pretty good you won't suffer a drive-by shooting like in LA.

d) Food: Are there supermarkets in Beijing where you can get nearly everything you need for living or do you have to shop in small grocers, etc. ?

Supermarkets are everywhere, even in small cities. Most of them even have imported foods. They also frequently have stuff you don't normally find in supermarkets, like clothing, furniture, toys, housewares, electronics, and other stuff.

e) Milk: I heard that milk and Cheese are not available in Nothern China. Is that true ??

You can get milk anywhere. It is however, irradiated. If you don't like irradiated milk, then it will be a problem for you. Cheese is a little harder to come by around where I am. It's difficult to find stuff like good Swiss or Provolone. Most of the cheese available here is imported from Australia. Maybe in Beijing, they have a wider selection.

d) Prices: What do you pay for a dinner in a good Chinese restaurant, how about the quality and prices for beer ?

Well, prices for a good dinner are all over. A lot depends on what you consider a good dinner. A decent restaurant will probably cost about $100 for dinner for 4 people. You can easily spend over $4000 if you drink expensive wine and eat gourmet Chinese food like abalone. Beer is plentiful and cheap in China. If you like Heineken, you're in luck since it's all over the place. The local stuff isn't too bad either.

e) Weekend: Apparently Saturday and Sunday are not weekend for everyone, as the party does not want to see 1,5 billion people on the streets for 2 days in a row. In that respect, how is night life organised. Are Friday and Saturday still the most busy evenings or is disco/bar A crowded on Tuesday and disco/bar B on sundays ??

A lot of people work on Saturdays. Almost all people are off on Sundays though.

f) TV: Are you allowed to install a satellite dish on your roof/balcony and receive "western" channels ?

I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to do it. This however, might be one of those things which might be disallowed by your apartment complex. I doubt it though.

g) Movies: Are foreign movies in the cinema in English with Chinese subtitles or all in Chinese ?

Foreign movies are usually screened in the native language with sub-titles.

Thank you for your support.

You're welcome.

Lao Ma

11-14-05, 12:40

LE: you will have the time of your life should you move over here. I hope you go for it.

MILK and CHEESE: not all the milk is irradiated - major supermarkets and most all 7-11's in Beijing have local dairy milk products for sale - including low fat and non fat types. Chinese dairies make wonderful yogurts, and there are several french and australian brands in the expat stores. As for cheeses - that's one of the biggest bonusses of Beijing - we have world class cheeses, from the best places on earth, for prices 50% to 80% cheaper than you would pay in your host country. European, aussie, american - many varieties.

Overall I would say the quality and variety of foods available here easily matches that of any major city in the world. Fruits, vegetables and produce are all fresh,, cheap. I purchase organic vegetables and fruits every day.

CRIME : Safer than most any place in America or Australia or the UK. Don't worry. I'm from Chicago - THAT place is dangerous. China is not.

Price for a nice chinese dinner : a really, really nice chinese dinner for 4 in Beijing is not gonna come close to $50 including beers. Thats with many, many dishes, a whole steamed fish, fruit at the end of the meal, the works. .

You can eat like a king here and pay like a pauper. If you want to spend a whole lot more, you can - but you don't have to.

Might I suggest that before you make a big move like this that you come here for a week or so and check it out ?

Jack Spratt

11-14-05, 14:15

Local Expert, while I would encourage anyone to come and live in Beijing, after 3.5 years here I would disagree with a couple of Lao Ma's points.

1. An opinion of the China dairy industry which came from an Oz expert I met a number of times here was not encouraging. Standards on the dairy farms are very low, and there are lots of nasties left in the milk and other dairy products that you would never find in Oz.

2. Don't know where LM shops for his cheese, or more importantly, where he used to buy it before he got to China, but in Beijing expect to pay an arm and a leg for imported cheeses ie double what you would pay in Oz - for example a 250g colby cheese will cost you about RMB35. or A$6. And that goes for most imported dairy products such as butter and margarine.

But there are a lot of things that are so cheap that you will soon forget about the price of cheese - including, for patrons of this esteemed website, the price of prime, fresh and varied pussy.

Enjoy it - its great. Unfortunately, I am about to bid farewell.

jack

Mao Dun

11-14-05, 14:40

The milk, the cheese, the rent, dinner prices--everything sounds better there than in Shenzhen, after all :-)

Seriously, I assumed you were in Beijing and that's why I mentioned the Universities. Shenzhen is not going to be a big draw for ambitious students. Given your comments on "xuebi," it sounds like you're being modest about your Mandarin knowledge. I now understand your puzzlement as being about lack of _curiosity_ about English names, rather than lack of English ability. There is a problem there--just after Beijing was selected for the 2008 Olympics I remember there was a campaign to get taxi drivers up and running in English for a few months. I got a lot of mangled English phrases getting into cabs during that time, not to mention some grumbling once the conversation switched to Chinese about how being a cabbie is hard enough without having to take foreign language lessons. As far as I'm concerned, even if hardly any people know "Coca-cola" or "KFC," it seems like a no-brainer to me that at least most cabbies should know "Sheraton" and "Holiday Inn" in English and it doesn't look like that's going to happen. The language campaign has long fallen by the wayside.

But even among those who know English, that lack of curiosity, or going the extra mile to know the English names of things as you say is more common in Korea, come to think of it, is somewhat strange. I have always explained it to myself that, most Chinese are happy to consume foreign products, but they have a more than 100-year old tradition of insisting that every single one of them has an indigenous name that may or may not sound anything like the original. For me, the most annoying aspects of this is the Chinese titling of foreign movies, which are rarely close even in meaning to the original, and end up sounding more like titles to old Chinese novels (The Matrix, for example, became Heike Diguo--The Empire of Hackers), and the strange names they come up with for celebrities (i.e., Britney Spears is often referred to as "Tian Quanquan"--"Donut.").

Lil Big Horn asks sardonically what an educator does, and whether I'm nailing my students. Apparently I pissed him off somehow; perhaps "educator" sounds pompous. I originally wrote "university professor," but I thought _that_ sounded pompous. Or maybe I didn't need to refer to my line of work at all. If you or others think the perspective of an academic who studies China is not appropriate on this board, I will stop posting. It would be pretty stupid for me to "nail" my students, and if I wanted to talk about whom I'm "nailing," I would do so. I usually read these boards in silence, because I'm not nailing anybody (except for my wife, and that's not really "nailing"), but felt I had something to say when the discussion of English ability came up, that's all.

Moody

11-14-05, 17:00

Strange. I've always heard Britney Spears referred to as Xiao Tiantian. I guess Tian Quanquan is her full name. I've frequently considered moving up north (Shanghai would be my first choice) but I have business dealings here which prevent me from doing so. Also, Shenzhen isn't bad at all. Aside from the lack of decent western food outlets, I really have nothing to complain about.

Cheese and milk are not a big part of my life since I'm lactose intolerant. I currently pay 3200RMB for a 86SqM apartment in a newly built complex, so rent isn't too bad. I did have to buy all my furniture except for the AC and stove, and I do pay for all utilities. As for dinner, I usually eat Guangdong food, which usually includes a lot of seafood. I don't really like pork and the beef in this country is pretty poor indeed. Basically, that means I tend to eat a lot of fish, crab, lobster, scallop, and other stuff like that.

The best part of Shenzhen though, is that almost everyone here is from somewhere else. Something like 90% of the population here is from other provinces. The diversity here makes for a very interesting experience. It occasionally makes communication a little more difficult, I find some accents difficult to understand, but I love the fact that everyone here is different, including me.

I'm usually in China for about 2-3 months out of the year, so my Mandarin ability is not progressing as rapidly as I would like. I do speak 2 other languages other than English and at times, I confuse Spanish with Mandarin. This is very strange since the two languages have very different phonics. I'm getting the feeling though, that my brain might be like a bucket and it's full. As I add more Mandarin, I think it's getting all mixed in with the Spanish and the Mandarin is displacing the Spanish. Oddly though, my other language speaking ability doesn't seem to be affected at all. Maybe Spanish is nearer to the top of the bucket.

Caine

11-14-05, 17:00

Basically the argument is that hardly anyone in China speaks English, and he finds it frustrating that he can't get anyone to understand "KFC" and "Coca-cola." First of all, as an educator, I am witnessing a growing influx of undergraduates and high school students coming directly from China, perhaps in the hundreds or even thousands nationwide in the USA, and they all have extraordinarily good English, and this is not due to contact with expats or whatever, they are learning it in school, and learning it well.A couple of hundred or even thousand students with "extraordinarily good English" is hardly a basis for extrapolating to a good level of English in a country. It would be a poor country indeed that couldn't even properly educate those few people they're sending abroad. And of course you find those at Beida, Qinghua and the like!

Didier5810

11-14-05, 18:25

Dear Moody,

When you experience this language confusion, you are at a breaking point and
your mandarin will progress suddenly in a short time. I've this experience in
foreign language learning. Keep on !

Kind regards

-didier

Intransit

11-14-05, 18:43

As a long-time Beijing resident, I would not encourage others to move to Beijing, not at all. I've even set a deadline for myself to leave, although it's not in the immediate future.

Beijing is worse than it has ever been. The pollution is downright Dickensian, the traffic has turned the city into one gigantic parking lot, the people are as apathetic and ignorant as can be imagined, and as such, efficiency is at a minimum. Almost with glee civil authorities are leveling whole neighborhoods without any regard for history or the environment. The closest foreign city is Pyongyang, meaning getting away for the weekend outside China is difficult and expensive. The taxi drivers are the biggest gang of unarmed thieves I've ever encountered. The nation should be embarrassed that this is its capital (kind of like when DC was the murder capital of the United States).

I like Beijing's history and the fact that it can be enjoyed from many areas just by walking. The food is great, plentiful, and dirt cheap. The quality of people I meet above the level of office worker, both Chinese and foreign, is superb. But the negatives now outweigh the positives. It's time to leave. Don't move here.

John Siron

11-14-05, 19:14

Actually, most taxi drivers in Shanghai don't even know the names of the 5 star hotels in English. You must say it to them in their Chinese equivalent. For instance, the Hyatt is called the JinMao, the Ritz Carlton is called the PorTuMen, the 4 Seasons is called SiJiJiuDian.

Even then, they might not know where it is! I'm not joking!

Like I said, maybe English is common in Beijing, but believe me when I say this, it's pretty hard to find it where I am. I'm also fairly certain guys in other parts of China (with the exception of Shanghai) will report the same experience.

John Siron

11-14-05, 19:31

It's funny that you say this...

Now that I've been in Beijing for several days, I think I can have a qualified opinion.

When comparing Shanghai and Beijing, I think the air in Beijing is much better. I refuse to have the cab windows open in Shanghai. In Beijing, I opened the windows myself to smell the fresh air. Of course it's not like it is from back home (Canada/USA), but it is much better than Shanghai.

The drivers in Beijing are extremely polite compared to Shanghai cabbies. They are more patient and don't honk their horns every 15 seconds. In Shanghai, you hear cars honking their horns every few seconds for no reason.

The drivers in Shanghai like to weave in and out of traffic. At the same time, they would deliberately stick their head out when coming out of the driveway of a highrise without looking at oncoming cars. They would then sit there and make the other cars wait for him to turn left.

Shanghai people insist on speaking to you FIRST in Shanghainese, and then Chinese. They are arrogant and need to learn that China comes first, not Shanghai. Even when you reply back in Chinese with a heavy foreign accent, they will still speak to you in Shanghainese.

Food... Shanghainese food is full of 3 things: salt, sugar, and oil.

I could go on and on, but I'm going to get into a flame war with a Shanghainese soon.

Positive notes about Shanghai compared to Beijing? I'm sure there are some... I'm just too fustrated with Shanghai (like Intransit is about Beijing) that I can't remember any.

As a long-time Beijing resident, I would not encourage others to move to Beijing, not at all. I've even set a deadline for myself to leave, although it's not in the immediate future.

Beijing is worse than it has ever been. The pollution is downright Dickensian, the traffic has turned the city into one gigantic parking lot, the people are as apathetic and ignorant as can be imagined, and as such, efficiency is at a minimum. Almost with glee civil authorities are leveling whole neighborhoods without any regard for history or the environment. The closest foreign city is Pyongyang, meaning getting away for the weekend outside China is difficult and expensive. The taxi drivers are the biggest gang of unarmed thieves I've ever encountered. The nation should be embarrassed that this is its capital (kind of like when DC was the murder capital of the United States).

I like Beijing's history and the fact that it can be enjoyed from many areas just by walking. The food is great, plentiful, and dirt cheap. The quality of people I meet above the level of office worker, both Chinese and foreign, is superb. But the negatives now outweigh the positives. It's time to leave. Don't move here.

Mao Dun

11-14-05, 20:48

As a long-time Beijing resident, I would not encourage others to move to Beijing, not at all. I've even set a deadline for myself to leave, although it's not in the immediate future.Everything Intransit says is right, I wouldn't wish a long-term stay in Beijing on anyone who doesn't have to go there. I'm probably moving back there in a few months, after having lived there for a year in the 90s and again the year before last (and a year in Tianjin in the 1980s), but that's largely because I'm personally and professionally so invested in Beijing and China that I don't have any choice.

That being said, many of the folks who read these boards are potential short-term visitors, and it must be said for the record that Beijing is at least a fascinating place to visit for a few days or so. Some of my coworkers who have nothing to do with China who were able to visit there for the first time a year or so ago have confirmed that :-) :-)

Cheers,

MD

SidTheSexist

11-15-05, 04:17

Except for the part about the whole 'shanghainese' language aspect, i dont think you could have summed up beijingers more wrongly!

If you have only been in beijing several days then you have really not got much right to a qualified opinion. two saturdays (5th nov 05) could have went down in history as an example of how disgusting the air in beijing can be. You could barely see you hand if you held it in front of your face.

As for the drivers in beijing. They make Thai's and various other asian nations, look like they have the safest roads in the world. You could not be any further from the truth by saying they do not constantly and unnecessarily use their horns. Their inability, as a nation of people, to see any common sense and abide by any kind of highway code is one of the most frustrating aspects of living in this city.

Anyway, im glad you are enjoying the initial experience. believe me it will shortly dissapear.

It's funny that you say this...

Now that I've been in Beijing for several days, I think I can have a qualified opinion.

When comparing Shanghai and Beijing, I think the air in Beijing is much better. I refuse to have the cab windows open in Shanghai. In Beijing, I opened the windows myself to smell the fresh air. Of course it's not like it is from back home (Canada/USA), but it is much better than Shanghai.

The drivers in Beijing are extremely polite compared to Shanghai cabbies. They are more patient and don't honk their horns every 15 seconds. In Shanghai, you hear cars honking their horns every few seconds for no reason.

The drivers in Shanghai like to weave in and out of traffic. At the same time, they would deliberately stick their head out when coming out of the driveway of a highrise without looking at oncoming cars. They would then sit there and make the other cars wait for him to turn left.

Shanghai people insist on speaking to you FIRST in Shanghainese, and then Chinese. They are arrogant and need to learn that China comes first, not Shanghai. Even when you reply back in Chinese with a heavy foreign accent, they will still speak to you in Shanghainese.

Bec26

11-15-05, 05:32

i think its time to toss my 5 cents worth into this debate on the subject of a newcomer in beijing. i have lived in cites all throughout asia. these cities include singapore, bangkok, tokyo, manila, seoul and kuala lumpur just to name a few. i have been in china now for 5 years and have lived in beijing, chengdu, xian, shenyang, and shanghai so i think i my observations should carry some weight for a padawan reading this contribution to take heed.

intransit is dead on in his assessment of beijing. here are just some undisputed facts of everyday life you will witness when you arrive. this city has gotten much worse in terms of corruption and basic human courtesies or personal hygiene. time magazine (vol. 2 issue 133, may 2004) states that 500 million people in china have never, ever brushed their teeth. they spit more than camels, and smoke like it there was a warning on the package that it was unhealthy not to smoke. where else would you find people who treat their babies like pets? they will not use [CodeWord131] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord131) but just cut a hole in the bottom of the pants and take them outside to do what comes naturally. worse still, in a civilized country we pick up after our pets. not here. i am caucasian and still get lengthy stares from natives like i was the peking man. if you try to be nice and lean the language, you will definitely pronounce some words wrong. the chinese will just stare at you without a clue of what your saying. there are only 5 tones in the language, figure out what i am trying to say. just a little help would be nice. this is neither a kind or gentle nation. a virgin traveler will find a majority of the chinese to be brash, abrasive, and probably the most disgusting people on the planet.

unless that person has no other choice but to come to a still very communist country, i would warn against it. if you are the extreme adventurous type, then come join the party. now of course everybody is different and will ultimately have to make their own judgment.

now, i know that much will come my way from people saying that i am generalizing in my statements, but it is true that all this generally happens more in this country that anyplace else i have been fortunate enough to spend time in.

so if you must come here, welcome to the ultimate bed-head nation and draw your own conclusions.

Me10

11-15-05, 08:10

I have been assigned to many different regions of the world including developed, in developing and underdeveloped countries. China, as all countries including those in North America and Europe, have their flaws and I think as guests in a country, we should respect this nation's culture and traditions. It is the hillbilly thinking that they should adapt to us, but bottom line, WE ARE THE FOREIGNERS and we should adapt.

IMHO, China is a very good country to live in. It is safe and in the large cities, all necessites are found. I think China has transformed substantially since my first visit in early 1990's and now days has a much better and hospitable environment than other South East Asia, South Asia, Latin America, and South Africa. As for North America and Europe, well life is certainly dull and not as good value as in China.

More than be flamming and complaining, you should appreciate the host country or move. And for the ones with expat packages who are complaining, don't be such hypocrites as usually the reward is worth the hassle.

Just my point of view, no harms intended...