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Macunaima
01-01-05, 02:00
Thread Starter

Macunaima
10-28-05, 16:57
It's in Portuguese, but pretty much everything you need to know about upcoming events in the Vila is here, along with a history of the neighborhood and its connections to the old "Mangue" zona of the early 20th century:

http://www.vilamimosa.com.br/index.php?meio=capa

Mostly, it's info for sex trade workers, but the "Eventos" page usually has information regarding upcoming parties and/or events:

http://www.vilamimosa.com.br/index.php?meio=eventos

Macunaima
10-28-05, 17:12
about this time of the year (october/november), the rio de janeiro federal police generally start making some symbolic busts in order to show the mouth-breathers watching rede globo that the state is "on top of the problem" of sexual tourism and prostitution.

last year's "arrest season" began with a raid on an innocuous gringo owned internet sex joint operating in city center. while of dubious legality, the bust gathered quite a lot of positive press for the feds. this year, however, the blitz season seems to be getting underway with increased pressure on vila mimosa.

doesn't look too dangerous for the average monger yet, but folks planning on visiting the vila in the next couple of months are well-advised to carry their passports (or xeroxed and registered copies thereof), go in groups and ask to see the i.d. of any hired help, especially if they look a little on the young side.

from "terra news", 10/7/2005...

"blitz arrests three recruiters of **** prostitutes in rio de janeiro.

a blitz targeting the exploitation of ****d prostitutes arrested three recruiters last friday night in vila mimosa, rio de janeiro. among those detained were two female managers of a brothel and a taxi driver who transports garotas de programa.

25 young women were also detained after searches in bars, nightclubs and restraunts in the neighborhood. according to the jornal do globo, 11 of these women were later found to be ****d and without documents. [tn: how they knew they were ****d if they had no documents is beyond me. it looks like a case of presuming that she who has no documents must be ****d. but surely our friends in the federal police would never be that amateur... right?].

the group was taken to a local social work institute.

vila mimosa is one of the most well-known red-light districts in the fluminense capital."

Macunaima
10-28-05, 17:20
Lots of questions...

1) Based on everything I've heard and read and everything most people who study this topic have heard and read, I believe that it is very, very unlikely that a prostitute enjoys sex with the average client. It is a job, not a joy. That doesn't mena they hate it, either, just that it's work, like any other work and nothing to get excited over. When prostitutes talk among themselves here in Rio, it is a constant source of amazement to them how many of their clients seem to feel that they are doing the job for fun and not money. Now, occasionally, I'm sure, a pro does cum with a client, but based on everything I've seen and heard, it's very, very rare...

2) How can I study pros without fucking them? Let's turn that question around, shall we, Marak? How can you make presumptions about pros without ever having BEEN one? While I've not ever turned tricks, I've worked as an erotic dancer, had plenty of prostitute friends, both male and female, so I'd have to say that my subjective, personal experience in this area is pretty good.

But you don't need to do everything someone does in order to study what they do, Marak. You don't have to deal drugs to study drug dealing. You don't have to BE a Yanomami Indian to study Yanomami Indians. In short, you don't have to have the exact same experience as someone does in order to analyze said experience.

Perkele
10-28-05, 23:14
Well Macu, we are waiting your response.

P

Ee2002
10-29-05, 10:50
Mac,

Sorry that it turned out this way and it's good to see that you are still posting.Though I may not have agreed with everything you said,but you provide different side to this whole scene.That being said,having been with Rio GDP,I believe there are a handful that enjoy sex and the fact that they are getting paid for it.I have seen it myself.I have seen girls make sure that the cum,whether the trick makes it happen or they do it themselves.Also Ive seen garotas becoming disappointed when you finish before they do.I know that most of these garotas fake it and try to get you off as soon as possible,but there are quite a few exceptions, based on my experience,observations and conversations.It seems that some just try to make the best of a bad situation that they are in.

Don't get me wrong,I don't buy 99% of the stuff these garotas say.I couldn't care less if a ***** that Im paying to service me cums or not.If she acts like she is into it and gives me a happy ending,then she earned her reais, lol.

Appleone
10-29-05, 18:45
Seems to me that Macuniama studying prostitution and mongering without being either is no different from most anthropological or sociological studies -- in some ways maintaining a distance from the subject allows a more objective perspective. The challenges Macu has are avoiding the Margaret Mead phenomenon (the objects of study behave differently when you are observing them), and designing statistically valid observations when the quality of data is so poor. Having once run a research company myself, I don't envy Macu having to tease out meaningful findings from either this board or from the GDPs.

The extended discussion on whether GDPs enjoy sex with their clients is one where I will firmly stake out a wishy washy position in the middle. In an earlier post on this thread Macu says (I'm paraphrasing here) the average GDP does not have an orgasm with the average client. To me that seems self-evidently true (too many clients, not enough warmup time, etc) but a bit misleading -- most of us do not consider ourselves average clients (we are the Lake Woebegon children of mongering). There are some pretty well documented and validated physiological indicators of whether a woman is sexually aroused and has an orgasm (see Masters & Johnson, Human Sexual Response, 1968); these are easy to observe on a fair skinned woman. In my personal experience with pros in Brasil (sample locations limited to Rio, Salvador, Foz Iguazu) there have been three out of (at a guess) 30 who had legitimate orgasms -- in each case, women who I had seen several times and with whom I had developed a bit of a relationship. Some of the others did a really good job of faking orgasms, though, and did produce quite a bit of natural lubrication, indicating some degree of arousal, which works for me.

The one other data point I'll offer is my quasi namorada when I'm in Rio, who I met while producing a music video there about three years ago. At the time she claimed to work in advertising, and only after we had been dating for about a year did she admit that she was a GDP (after I asked how she could afford to own an apartment in a good neighborhood, a nice car, great clothes, etc on the salary of an advertising go-fer). Last April - July she worked in Spain (saving almost 30,000 euros over four months -- I'm impressed) before returning to Brasil, and she is now trying to decide whether to work in Spain again. On the one hand, she makes way more money in Spain (the market in Rio is very competitive for high end freelancers); on the other hand Spanish men are lousy lovers. In Spain her clients buy a half hour of her time, finish in 15 minutes, and leave; in Brasil they hire her for two hours and make active use of the full time (she only takes cariocas as clients in Rio: no tourists and definitely no paulistas). She clearly enjoys sex with her Brasilian clients -- not necessarily to orgasm, but still fun for her -- to the point where she is considering sacrificing considerable income to continue working in Rio. That suggests to me that at least some GDPs do have a sexual response to some clients.

Gladiator
10-30-05, 19:38
I’ve found in a competitor forum an interesting thread discussing the blog that one of Rio’s hookers has set up and where she is writing about her experiences. This is the link:

http://gatadeprograma.weblogger.terra.com.br/

It may come as a surprise to some that for her it is all business and she never mentions how much she enjoyed the sex with her clients or how much she liked any of the guys, she seems to be mainly concerned just with how much money she makes and how fast she finishes her ‘programas’.

Some of the lonely hearts in this forum may also be surprised to know that she never comes with clients, or as she put it ‘eu nunca gozo com cliente’.

For those who still dream about Brazilian hookers who have orgasms with clients or fall in love with gringos, this may be an enlightening read.

Enjoy it!

Ee2002
10-30-05, 20:11
Gladiator,

Like I said before it really doesn't matter to me, it's the effort that counts,lol.I have read that blog and it's interesting,but to use that one garota as an example to thousands doesn't make sense.I agree MOST of these hookers probably think the same and I would avoid a relationship with a hooker like a plague.

While I am pretty sure 9 out of 10 probably don't cum, there are a handful that do, whether it be cause of arousal or because they want to get off too.They may be hookers but they have needs too.I,m willing to bet that there are a significant number of these garotas who are so caught up in this game that sex for pay is all they get,so why not enjoy it once in a while.We are not a bunch of amateurs who can't tell when a women is truly enjoying themselves or getting off.Again this is no fantasy of mine, just an observation Ive made over the years after numerous trips to Brazil.In the end I pay hookers to get me off, not the other way around.Money is what will brings them back not your lovemaking abilities,lol.

Coats001
10-30-05, 22:36
I’ve found in a competitor forum an interesting thread discussing the blog that one of Rio’s hookers has set up and where she is writing about her experiences. This is the link:

http://gatadeprograma.weblogger.terra.com.br/

It may come as a surprise to some that for her it is all business and she never mentions how much she enjoyed the sex with her clients or how much she liked any of the guys, she seems to be mainly concerned just with how much money she makes and how fast she finishes her ‘programas’.

Some of the lonely hearts in this forum may also be surprised to know that she never comes with clients, or as she put it ‘eu nunca gozo com cliente’.

For those who still dream about Brazilian hookers who have orgasms with clients or fall in love with gringos, this may be an enlightening read.

Enjoy it!Then again not ALL GDP are like her.

Le Dragueur
10-31-05, 04:56
Mac,

is there a study of the pros who retire and settle down with some guy? I'd be interested in knowing what kind of wives they made, and what the stats are on how many of them got married, are still married, or got divorced, got re-married, or stayed single.

It would also be interesting to know how many are still "playing" on the side for extra cash.

Anything on what kind of lives they led after they left the sex business?

Sperto
10-31-05, 19:50
Mac,
is there a study of the pros who retire and settle down with some guy? I'd be interested in knowing what kind of wives they made, and what the stats are on how many of them got married, are still married, or got divorced, got re-married, or stayed single.

Sorry, I'm not Mac, but maybe I can give my humble opinion?

In my work back home I meet a lot of countrymen married to brazilian women. I would guess at least 90% of the wives are ex-pro's or piranhas. Propably 80% of the relationships end in a period less than 3 Years. They often end when the girl got herself a permanent Visa.

The chances of a lasting relationship will be bigger if you manage to meet an educated brazilian woman who is economically independent and who has a truly interest in you. For the average Rio-monger, with a limited knowledge of Portuguese, who mainly stays in Copacabana the chances of meeting a woman like this will be just as big as finding a pink pig flying from Pedra Bonita.

If I were interested in marrying a brazilian woman I would head to the interior of Brazil, very far away from all gringos, to find myself a wifey.

I think the palm trees on the beaches in Brazil are very beautiful, but I don't bring one home because it would fade away very quickly.

Ripple66
10-31-05, 20:26
Sperto says:

I think the palm trees on the beaches in Brazil are very beautiful, but I don't bring one home because it would fade away very quickly.

Very apt analogy. Much as we think we might be offer a safe and secure home and be able to water the plant two or threee time a day - she would still whither from loneliness and being out of her environment. I tried it once with an african girl who was far from a hooker- who dissed me full time once she got to europe - but probably becaue she just didn't understand the differences in culture. Fortunatly I got her home before she turned to a life of vice:-). I don't think its alwasy cynicism on the girls' behalf. Even the nicest ones can see their life expectancies change when exposed to a different social environment.

Exec Talent
10-31-05, 20:33
I have met quite a few Brazilians who used to be married to Americans. The reason the marriages ended (there were usually children involved) was because the man got tired of his Brazilian trophy wife. My advice to Brazilian women who have an interest in marrying American men is to make sure the guy looks beyond your beauty and sex and can appreciate the other things you have to offer. If he doesn't respect you when you are dating he is not going to after you are married.

Macunaima
10-31-05, 22:18
Good questions, La Drageur. All I can say is that if you see anything authoritative, let me know, because this is one of the things I'm trying to dig out.

Frankly, I'm open-minded about whether or not these relationships last. There's nothing saying that they can't. But I think that when two people get hitched based on mutual fantasies (he that she's 'the perfect wife' because she's Brazilian, she that he's a wealthy gringo) and usually without a common language compentently spoken between them... well, my gut feeling is that it's going to quickly become a mess.

Regarding the "do pros cum or not?" thread, yes, some may cum occaisionally, but it certainly isn't many and it's not often. BubbsBoy and Exec Talent (IIRC) were on the other thread claiming that 50% of their girls cum, which is far too excessive.

But ther eis a catch here and that is that these girls are consciously blurring the line between pro and girlfriend, so sooner or later, the line will be crossed. It's significant to me that EE sez that the girls who cum with him are usually ones wwith whom he has a relationship beyond strict pay-for-play.

Le Dragueur
11-01-05, 06:03
Sorry, I'm not Mac, but maybe I can give my humble opinion?

In my work back home I meet a lot of countrymen married to brazilian women. I would guess at least 90% of the wives are ex-pro's or piranhas. Propably 80% of the relationships end in a period less than 3 Years. They often end when the girl got herself a permanent Visa.

The chances of a lasting relationship will be bigger if you manage to meet an educated brazilian woman who is economically independent and who has a truly interest in you. For the average Rio-monger, with a limited knowledge of Portuguese, who mainly stays in Copacabana the chances of meeting a woman like this will be just as big as finding a pink pig flying from Pedra Bonita.

If I were interested in marrying a brazilian woman I would head to the interior of Brazil, very far away from all gringos, to find myself a wifey.

I think the palm trees on the beaches in Brazil are very beautiful, but I don't bring one home because it would fade away very quickly.I already knew pros would not exactly be serious prospects for marriage. I just thought if there were any hard stats, that might help either dispel or confirm whatever notions guys here have about them.

Trippleecks
11-01-05, 13:20
2) How can I study pros without fucking them? Let's turn that question around, shall we, Marak? How can you make presumptions about pros without ever having BEEN one? While I've not ever turned tricks, I've worked as an erotic dancer, had plenty of prostitute friends, both male and female, so I'd have to say that my subjective, personal experience in this area is pretty good.


Mac are you a woman ????????? you said above.. While I've not ever turned tricks, I've worked as an erotic dancer.

Macunaima
11-01-05, 17:10
Nodd N asks "How can you study pros without fucking them?"

Maybe you can answer the question I gave to Marak: how can you - or anyone - study pros without being one? And yet most mongers seem to feel that they are very informed about pros. In fact, the reason that I am here omn this thread is because I "dared" to challenge certain mongers' expertise...

There are two sides to the prostitution equation, NoddN: you and the woman. If one were to presume that experience with the actual substance of buying or selling sex is the only way to achieve a reliably "objective" viewpoint, then logically I'd have to become a prostitute too, correct?

And by that logic (which I do not adhwere to, btw, but which seems to be yours), if my opinions are full of shit because I've never been a john, then it occurs to me that most mongers' opinions about pros must equally be full of shit as they've never turned tricks.

As I mentioned above, I've actually worked in the sex trade as a service provider when I was younger (a stripper). Many of my friends and relatives have as well. So I very much have subjective experience opinion with sex work, though it's not perhaps from the same point of view as yours.

What you really seem to be asking, Nodd N, is why don't I presume that YOUR opinion - that of an individual monger - is more valuable, real, or interesting than the opinion of a prostitute, or even that of another monger who believes differently than you do. My job isn't to experience every single permutation that may exist in the commercial sex market, however: my job is to explain it using the words and observed actions of those people who engage in said behavior, which means pros and johns. In your case, I've been collecting your stories, as posted, for several years now and comparing them to those of other posters, like ET and Pro. Then I take that material out into the field and compare it with what the mongers down on Copa actually DO. I then compare that with what the pros say they do and with what other people studying similar scenes the world over say they do. This gives me a very wide base from which to theoretize regarding monger and pro behavior in Copa. Whether these theories are corerect or not can only be decided by going once more into the field and comparing what I think is happening with what I see happening.

I've asked this on the other board and I'll ask it again: what socially relevant knowledge, exactly, am I going to gain from sex with a prostitute that I can't gain from observing and listening to you folks and the pros? I might learn alot about myself and what I like and dislike, how I can be fooled or not, but I'm not being paid to learn about myself.

If you can explain to me what it is, exactly, that's so sublime in the prostitute/john relationship that it can only be learned from direct experience, then I'm interested and I'd be willing to john. But as far as I can see, all you're doing is remarking that I can't know anything about you, personally, because I haven't had the same exact experiences as you have had.

But anthropologists aren't interested in predicting or describing the behavior of any ONE person, Nodd N. We are interested in describing and predicting the behavior of people in GROUPS, as a whole. And in that sense, I really can't see what in the prostitution/john relationship is socially relevant. John gives pro money, barters for a set of services, receives sex, may take the relationship further or (more likely) not. The prices charged, the services bartered for, whether or not the sex is good, whether or not the john decides to try and make the pro into a girlfriend, whether or not the pro tries to pressure him to do the same... all this is the socially relevant stuff and this is talked about ALL THE TIME by johns and pros, both here and on the Copa strip.

I'm not really interested in how well a pro can fake orgasm or if she actually has one. There's only ONE person who can really tell me that: the pro. Any man's opinion about it - including my own - would just be the subjective opinion of a guy who is, after all, paying precisely to have that fantasy presented to him.

Let's put it another way. If this were a movie theater, my job is not to be movie critic: it is to watch the audience and see how they respond to the flick, interview them about what they liked or disliked about it. My job isn't to report on the film's plot, special effects or the quality of its actors.

It seems to me that alot of the misunderstanding here is based on people's confusion over what an anthropologist does, as opposed to, say, a psychologist.

Regarding my identity, NoddN, let's just say after the recent witchhunt, I'm less inclined than before to give out any more info than necessary. But there are male and female strippers and that both sexes work for both homo- and heterosexual crowds, so why would you presume that a stripper necessarily be female?

Macunaima
11-01-05, 17:15
Le Draguer sez:

"I already knew pros would not exactly be serious prospects for marriage. I just thought if there were any hard stats, that might help either dispel or confirm whatever notions guys here have about them."

"Hard stats" are impossible to come by for something like this because the behavior involved is so subjective and because the couples involved usually don't go around advertizing the fact that one of them was a sex trade worker and that's how they met.

Stats are only good in social science if you can get a reasonable counting of the population you're trying to describe. For the reasons I've stated above, it's almost fucking impossible to even find out how many couples there are which fit this bill - gringo married to Copa pro - let alone find out how many of these couples continue together after, say, five or ten years.

Which is why this is a good field for anthropology to study. Anthropology isn't based on quantitative but qualitative research. It tries to get at what's going on through direct insertion into the game rather than through counting cases.

Trippleecks
11-03-05, 12:31
Actually if you would have read the whole post you would have seen that I did not ask you "How can you study pros without fucking them?"

What I asked you and you cleverly avioded was, if you are a women????

I ask because you said in your post (((While I've not ever turned tricks, I've worked as an erotic dancer.)))

Macunaima
11-03-05, 14:48
Whoops. My bad, NoddN. Sorry, I was writing when I was tired and the question has been asked so many times that I just glossed over it.

As for your question regarding my gender, put yourself in my shoes: if you got the quantity of hate mail I get (less than the quantity of good mail, but what I get is really virulent), would YOU give out any more personal data than necessary?

Svtlord
11-03-05, 17:15
I can think of some 6 books on the topic of prostitution in Copacabana alone, several written by prostitutes.Can you provide the names of these 6 books on prostitution?

Gladiator
11-03-05, 23:42
Nodd,

Regardless of whether or not you agree with his opinion it is obvious that Macunaima’s replies are always methodical, logical and rationally structured, a woman could never write such rational posts, they lack the clear thinking necessary to compose such messages.

If some of those lengthy posts that Macunaima has often written had come from a female mind there would have been some elements of irrationality, of loose thinking: women are unable to put more than 2 or 3 paragraphs together without getting carried away by their right brain hemisphere.

I have no doubt that Macunaima’s posts come from a male mind, there is no need to ask him.

El Austriaco
11-04-05, 00:16
At one point in time last year, I was trying to come up with some numbers about women working in the sex industry in Brazil overall and in Rio specifically. Trying to do some research on the Internet, I couldn't come up with any reliable numbers. Do you have any idea?

Here's what I have come up with:

1. "There are an estimated 10 million prostitutes in Brazil, most of whom come from the poorest classes. Many are black. Tragically, as many as two and a half million of them are children." http://www.newint.org/issue184/update.htm. Is this realistic?

2. According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/br.html, Brazil had a total population of 186,112,794 (year unclear), of which 63,719,631 were females between the age of 15-64 years. Assuming that the vast majority of prostitutes is in this age group, that would mean that roughly 15.5% of Brazilian women in this age group are prostitutes. Is this realistic?

3. Considering that Rio has roughly 6 million people, and assuming that Rio has the same proportion of prostitutes as Brazil overall, that would mean that there should be approx. 320,000 prostitutes in the city of Rio de Janeiro. Is this realistic?

4. As you know the Copacabana area well, what would you say how many girls work in areas that almost exclusively or predominantly cater to foreign tourists? Based on personal observation, I would say no more than 1000 to 2000 max. Is this realistic?

Let me know, ok. I am curious.

Trippleecks
11-04-05, 11:39
Well Mac......... that explains a LOT... you are a women......... I should have known by the posts.

Gladiator .... how many exotic MALE dancers do you know????? Its a WOMAN.

Macunaima
11-04-05, 15:09
Stvlord asks for the titles of six books on prostitution in Rio. Off the top of my head...

On it's past history:
Baile das Mascaras
Rameiras, Polacas e Ilhotas
Os Bordeis Franceses: 1910-1930
Meretrizes e Doutores: Saber Médico e Prostituição no Rio de Janeiro
Meninas Perdidas
Os Estrangeiros e o Comércio de Prazer nas Ruas do Rio de Janeiro

On its current developments:
Território e Prostituição na Metrópole Carioca
Mulheres da Vila
Territórios de Prostituição nos Espaços Públicos do Rio de Janeiro
Nossa Senhora da Help: Sexo, Amor e Turismo em Copacabana
Garotas de Programa: Prostituição em Copacabana e Identidade Social
Prostituição Feminina e Turismo na cidade do Rio de Janeiro
Tráfico internacional das mulheres e exclusão racial

On other areas in Brazil, but very applicable to Copa:
Gringos nos Trópicos: Gênero e Nacionalidade no Marco de Turismo Sexual em Forteleza

And on gringo-chasers in general...
Um Loiro de Olhos Azuis: Uma Etnografia

On prostitution and sexual tourism, in general (responding a bit to Marak here):
Prostitution, Power and Freedom. (An OK overview, but the author is obviously an abolitionist, so she'll probably [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) mongers off)
What's Love Got to do With It? (An excellent study of Sosua in the Dominican Republic, which is applicable on many level to the situation here.

There are many more people writing on this topic in Rio, but few of them have actually produced books. I can give you an article list as long as your arm, if you're interested.

About the only thing available in English that I'm aware of is Adriana Piscitelli's work on Forteleza, which you can find at:
http://www.vibrant.org.br/downloads/a1v1_ogn.pdf#search='Piscitelli%20AND%20gringos'

El Aus asks about numbers in the sex industry in Rio...

There ARE no reliable numbers, Aus, and anyone who says differently is talking out their asshole, so be careful with what you read.

To get a number, we'd first of all need to define the field and that's almost impossible. OK, I suppose we could get a reasonable head count in Vila Mimosa, all the Copa clip joints and all the cities termas, but that would still leave out many of the zonas in town. and even if one could get financing to go do a complete headcount of every brothel, bar and terma in the city, that would still leave out the street traffic. And if one could somehow come up with a reasonable estimate for THAT, the final result would still ignore a major fact about carioca prostitution: women drift in and out of it. The girls you count at Help in Setember, say, are not the same ones in February. Sure, there's always a hard core that's there, but they make up, what, maybe 25%-50% of what you see at Help?

The population's too fluid, the urban area which needs to be covered in the count too big and widespread and the venues which need to be covered too many and diverse for anyone to come up with a reasonable number.

However, by this time next year, I think I'll have a reasonable estimate of the number of women who are involved in the sexual tourism scene in Copa. I've paged through some 4 years of posts here and on other sites and have a list of bars, termas and brothels gringos report frequenting, who made the report, when, and what they said. Minimally, boiling this data down should give a map of English-speaking gringos and prostitution in Rio. Just looking over the raw data now, I can say that 90 percent of the gringos who come here visit the same 20 or so places. It should be possible to do head counts there and street counts around said places. It still won't resolve the revolving door problem, but it will at least give a number as to the size of the population gringos are dealing with.

This number, BTW, fluctuates drastically over the year, peaking near Carnaval and hitting bottom in May and Setember.

Regarding the sources you cite, many of them ascribe to the "whip a number out of your asshole" school of stats so beloved by Non-Government Organizations involved in the political debates around prostitution. Gabi and Davida are the source for that 10 million stat. I work with them and I can tell you for a fact that they are simply guessing. The truth is, we don't know. Ditto that 2.5 million kids in prostituiton stat. Why does Davida say stuff like this? Because anyone who runs an NGO has to have a number to trot out when the media comes calling or you'll not be taken seriously. And when Gabi gives this number, she almost certainly says "This is a rough estimate". But no journalist likes to admit that they don't have "hard numbers", so they simply overlook that admission. What's important to them is that an authority on prostitution has given them a number, no matter how vague or even completely made up.

Another thing, when Gabi counts pros, she may be counting all women who ever turned a trick in their life. She herself stopped turning tricks years ago but still defines herself as a prostitute. I highly doubt that there are 10 million active prostitutes in Brazil. Even counting all women who ever turned a trick once upon a time, it'd be a stretch. According to the IBGE, the largest female employment category is "domestic labor" - maids, cooks, private nurses, baby-sitters and the like - at 6.5 million women employed. That 10 million stat presumes that there are 3.5 million MORE women employed as sex trade workers than there are as domestic workers and I find that very unlikely.

Finally, Gabi and Davida tend to talk about the sex industry as a whole. That number might be referring to all people employed by the sex industry and the journalist simply misunderstood (very possible, given that few folks in Davida speak English and few journalists Portuguese). Even so, it's still a very, very high estimate.

Regarding Copa, as I said, all the data's not analyzed yet, so any estimate I can come up with is just as unreliable as that 10,000,000, above. But if I was pushed to come up with a number, I'd say the size of the prostitute population that gringos routinely encounter in Rio (minus Vila Mimosa, which is getting more popular among you guys but still seems to be a bit of a "safari" destination) hits lows of around 1000 on weekends in May and September and highs of around 5 times that - or even more - over Carnaval.

Here's the reasoning behind my off-the-cuff number's crunching.

There are about 20 main termas and boites which you guys frequent. Said establishments generally employ about 15 women during the low season, on average.

On a hopping night in September at Help, there might be 200 women in and around the joint.

Simultaneously, there'll be another 100 or so at Mabs, Balconey and other strip bars.

There will be another 100 or so working the kiosks and side streets.

Then there are the girls of the escort services, the ones who work the beaches, the ones who go to gringo bars disguised as non-proastitutes... Say 300, just as a complete guess.

Now, some of these women are working multiple venues (beaches by day, the Copa strip or Help by night), so there's some double counting. But then again, there's Vila Mimosa and the occasional gringo safari there to be considered, so...

As you can see, this is a lot of off-the-cuff estimating, but at least I'm honest about it. :-)

NoddN:
That's very interesting that you think I'm a woman. Even more interesting that you think it explains a lot. Enjoyed your logic, too: you don't know any male erotic dancers, so they obviously do not exist.

Appleone
11-04-05, 20:07
Hi Mac,

Good post -- thanks for both the source materials and the estimates. Not to try to dictate a methodology, but in market research (which has some fairly good techniques I think could be pertinent to this discussion) when the supply of some product is difficult to measure directly, we typically look at two other factors to estimate supply: aggregate potential demand and flow of money/pricing. In a completely free market with few supply constraints (which I'm guessing is a fair description of prostitution in much of Brasil) actual demand is usually a fairly high percent of potential demand (lets say 50% for this discussion), so estimating potential demand gives some upper and lower bounds on the currently active prostitution supply.

As you noted, the first task is to define who qualifies as a prostitute. I'll suggest an arbitrary definition: someone who has earned at least 50% of her (yes, I know there are guys as well) income for the past three months from turning tricks or other sexual services, or intends to earn at least 50% of her income for the next three months that way. This omits the occasional dilettante (who occasionally sees a guy she sort of likes and ends up going out with him and having sex for money), as well as those who have retired at least temporaily from the profession. As an aside, in my experience in Brasil the occasional dilettante, ranging from shop clerk to TV personality, seems much more common than other places I've been -- is that consistent with your observations?

Now for a couple critical assumptions on the demand side: the vast majority of demand is domestic Brasilians, not foreigners; and the typical pricing for a session with a prostitute is consistent with other countries with a relatively free prostitution market: about eight to ten times the average hourly take home wage. Which in Brasil means about 40 - 50 reais per session, if my book of economic statistics is current. Clearly prices would be much higher in Sao Paulo, much lower in some town in the Nordeste -- this is an average.

Dropping out the evangelicals and others that would not be likely customers, the candidate domestic male population for prostitution demand is somewhere around 50M - 55M. The amount of disposable income they can realistically spend on prostitution services is probably not much over 5%, which equates to around one visit a month with a prostitute as the potential demand per qualified customer. How many prostitutes can a maximum market size of $R2.5B per month support? That, Mac, is where your knowledge is critical: what is the mean monthly income a Brasilian woman will accept to be a prostitute? If it is $R1000/month, then the potential demand could support 2,500,000 active prostitutes in Brasil, although as mentioned above even in a very free and open market actual demand is probably only about half the potential, so say 1,250,000 active prostitutes. If the mean monthly income is higher (which I'm guessing is the case), then the number of prostitutes would need to be fewer. Still, I think we're looking at an absolute ceiling, based on potential demand, of around 2.5M active sex workers at any one time, not ten million; and realistically probably a figure closer to 1 million or possibly somewhat less.

This demand based approach works well for most consumer products, and prostitution certainly fits the definition of a consumer product. If my numbers on after tax average income in Brasil are current, and my guess on the average monthly revenue prostitutes require to stay in the profession is in the ballpark, I'd be willing to wager that the average active population of prostitutes in Brasil is between 850,000 and 1.2 million -- with your qualifier that the number does change seasonally.

Gladiator
11-04-05, 21:13
Nodd,

As you probably know there are strip clubs that cater to men (the ones many of us frequent) as well as others that cater to women, gays or a mixed audience. Obviously these last types of clubs employ male dancers, so there are many male strippers around, though we may not have seen them because we don’t frequent that type of clubs that are more orientated towards women or fags.

I personally know a bloke, a bodybuilder, who used to work as a stripper a few years ago.

Bimbo Boy
11-05-05, 00:18
Macunaima,

About high end prostitution, ie women that have a good lifestyle, maybe a well paid husband and family, and that still do the trade.

Does this exist in Brazil? Is it a common practice? How does it function?

Regards.

CaptainNemo
11-05-05, 05:36
I have to jump on on this this.

Macunaima is more than one person. A man and woman, even more than 2, who knows.

Some of his reseach posts are from a guy. Some of BS are obviously from a woman.

Many of his research need women's help. I don't know how many GDPs are willing to discuss their life with a local guy, whom they just meet.

He is so trustworthy that every GDPs loves to tell him their life stories. I don't believe it. Only women talk to women on such things.

RxHammer
11-05-05, 08:29
Bimbo Boy,

I know an American that lives in Ipanema that has been "supplying/refering" what he says are "very high end" girls to his friends and business associates. He says that the girls are part-timers and they are models, actresses, etc. The way he tells it is he gets 5 or 6 six girls together and his "clients" fly them to the States or Mexico etc. for a week long party. These clients have big money, millions I'm told, and pay the girls top dollar plus travel expenses. He has provided the same services for clients visiting Rio also. I have no reason to disbelieve him and I have met a couple of his associates although I have never ask to be included in any of the events, I have better ways of spending my money than paying outragous prices for a "10" when I'm happy paying local rates for a "9"....then again I have no reason to be discreet (no wife or "social staus" to ruin my fun (lol)!!!). Plus, I have the feeling that to move in this circle requires a large bank account and I'm just a working stiff.......

Hammer

Trippleecks
11-05-05, 13:31
Gladiator when is the last time you heard a man refer to himself as an exotic dancer ??? Male stripper, yes...

Mac.... I try and stay away from women like you, that is why I travel 5000 miles to have a good time... That is why most men no longer have any interest in women from the US. They are exactly like you....

Macunaima
11-05-05, 13:57
Bimbo Boy, there is high-end prostitution here in Rio, but it's generally not women who are married and with a family doing it. That sort of profile is more common to the lower end of the prostituion market, actually. High end prostitution here is something few gringos ever see. It's gentlemen's clubs for Brazilian businessmen and their guests and the hired help is usually minor T.V. personalities (say Fastão's dancers or the girl doing the bit part on the telenovela das 8), models and the like.

the kind of woman RcHammer describes certainly fits this bill, but I'd have to say that if it's a gringo involved in supplying thesesort of women, he almost certainly has a fairly powerful Brazilian partner. Otherwise, he runs a decent risk of ending up like Kenneth Graham. The operation Rx describes is the kind of thing that could easily be shut down by a few anonymous phone calls, unless the guy has back up.

Captain Nemo, as I've mentioned on the main board a couple of times, I work together with my wife, who's also an anthropologist. As for my "bullshit posts", as far as I can see, the main objection to me is that I claimed that, as a rule, prostitutes don't cum with their clients. Any prostitute will tell you this, BTW, as long as she doesn't think you're a client. It's not something that they are ashamed of or, in fact, feel any way in particular about. Most of the prostitutes I've interviewed, in fact, will talk about this without it even being mentioned. The two things that seem to amuse them most about their clients are:

1) The fact that some clients seem to feel that they are doing this for sexual pleasure, or because the client is nice, or because he is good looking. Wrong. They do it for money.

2) The way some clients seem to feel that it's necessary to impress them by going on and on about what kind of car they have, how much money they make, what an important guy they are. As my friend Jane says "Do they really think we care in the slightest?"

The fact of the matter is, I plenty of questions about monger behavior from pros, being a gringo and being involved in interviewing both sides of the field. These two points are constantly brought up by the women I talk to, often without me touching upon them. "Why do men do this? Why do gringos do this?" My wife gets the same questions.

Given this, I really think the problem here is that I pissed on some men's dear fantasy of Brazilian women. this is what has been brought up as my "bullshit", time and again, Nemo. Why this would necessarily need to be written by a woman is not clear to me. Why do you think so?

NoddN, that's "erotic", not "exotic". "Exotic" is your word. And if women in the U.S. are "exactly like me", NoddN, then let me gently suggest that perhaps you need to be a little bit more careful about checking your dates for adams apples. My advise is that you stay away from the Passeio Público and Posto 9. :-)

Full Throttle
11-05-05, 15:41
As long as we're into theories, I wouldn't be surprised if all of this ended up in a Masters or PHD thesis at some point. I know another of my friends is turning his WSG posts into a novel.

This may be consistent with the theory that Mac is actually two or more people including his S.O.. It would also explain why he spends so much time in discussion on this board. I'm a dedicated hobbyist, and get excited to see new posts here and elsewhere, but I couldn't imagine making the mental dedication Mac does. There has to be an ulterior motive, and an academic one makes the most sense.

All in all, I'm glad he/you're here. The board sorely lacks in irreverence and in depth. Heck, I got flamed for making a tongue-in-cheek observation that mongering in Rio is the very least of their problems, and politicians should focus on crime, pollution, and the taste of the beer.

One point. I am sure that many girls fake their orgasms. I’m positive it has happened to/with me. I can also assure you that, sometimes, even a professional girl will allow chemistry to take over and enjoy her time physically and emotionally with a client. Perhaps it happens less often than many of us think and more often than you think, but it does happen.

FT

Bimbo Boy
11-06-05, 01:47
I am not interested in just fucking a beautiful girl. I am interested in talking to her (I speak portuguese) and knowing her.

I am looking for university students, professional women and the like. I prefer to pay because I have little time and because I want no emotional attachment.

I have tried the agency www.viprj.com.br in the past, trying to get better looking and higher level girls that the average found in termas or other agencies, but it did not work out well (switch and bait).

A forum member recommended to me www.gatas1000.com.br. What do you think of it?

Regards.

Macunaima
11-06-05, 19:29
Well, I'm not a consumer of sexual services, BB, so I'm the wrong guy to ask about any given call girl service. But regarding "university students"...

Here in Brazil we have two kinds of universities: the very good and the very bad. there is hardly any middle ground, as there is in the States. We do not have, for example, universities like, say, CU Boulder, UC San Diego or the University of Oklahoma, all perfectly satisfactory, if unspectacular institutions. Here, in order to get into a good school, one needs to pass what's called the vestibular, which is a very tough entrance exam - worse than the SAT, ACT or GRE combined. If you don't make it, you don't get in, no matter what your connections.

On the low end, however, there are a ton of schools which will take pretty much near anyone, as long as they have cash. Globo did a story a couple of years ago about how they managed to place an illiterate guy in UniverCidade he in town.

All of the pros I've met who are in school come from these kind of universities and, in every case so far, their entry into prostituion predates their entry into school. They are thus not pros in order to pay for school: they are in school in order to prepare for their leaving prostituion. usually, this escape strategy is combined with others, such as looking for a husband or getting overseas.

So the idea that being a "university girl" is somehow synonymous with "not really" being a prostitute doesn't quite work here. Few women in good schools turn tricks. Why? They don't need to. The federal and state schools - which are generally the best schools in Brazil - are free.

If a girl tells you she's studying full-time at UFRJ, UFF, UFFR, UERJ or PUC, it's something to be impressed with. Most other schools are basically "buy a diploma" mills and even then, few pros manage to make their way completely through their coursework. why? Because it becomes obvious after a year or two studying at these places that their diplomas usually aren't worth the paper they are printed on. There are some exceptions, such as Cândido Mendes (UCAM), perhaps, but they are few and far between. Pros aren't stupid and usually figure out that they are being robbed pretty quickly.

You are not going to find many bonafide professional women and university students from good schools turbning tricks because usually they don't have to. There are, of course, exceptions, but presenting oneself as a poor girl who needs to turn tricks in order to study is a very old strategy here.

Full Throttle, I've been very open about what the work I'm doing is going to result in: an anthropological study of sexual tourism and prostitution in Copacabana. This will almost certainly be in book form and, if all goes well, it'll be ready about three years from now. In the meantime, it's articles, articles, articles, work with Davida and the occasional conference presentation.

I've said this from day one, but that was a while ago, so maybe you didn't see it. In any case, it's no deep secret. :-)

Whether or not a pro ocasionally cums really isn't at issue. I'm certain it does happen from time to time. But I'm also QUITE certain that a guy who goes down on a pro is giving her a VERY clear message: he wants her to cum. And the customer is king in this business.

Frankly, the only people who are REALLY able to tell are the women themselves, and they deny it. They know more about their experiences that we do, so I have no reason to doubt their word. It's not like it's a stigma to come with a client: hell, most pros probably want to, in fact. Anything to kill the boredom.

Most folks don't realize this, but aside from brief spurts of terror, sex work is usually incredibly fucking boring. You are being paid, essentially, to fulfill someone's fantasy. Mostly this means shut up and look nice and feign pleasure while the other person natters on about their life. This is true whether the pro and/or the client is a man or a woman. I used to get paid big bucks not for dancing, but for sitting in booths afterwards, drinking ginger ale at 15 bucks a glass and smiling, while the Junior League from East Sheepshag, Missouri, got wasted and bitched about their husbands, jobs, kids and life in general.

That part is basically the same everywhere. We see it every night in Copa, don't we?

Comgo
11-06-05, 23:45
Well, I'm not a consumer of sexual services, BB, so I'm the wrong guy to ask about any given call girl service. But regarding "university students"...

Here in Brazil we have two kinds of universities: the very good and the very bad. there is hardly any middle ground, as there is in the States. We do not have, for example, universities like, say, CU Boulder, UC San Diego or the University of Oklahoma, all perfectly satisfactory, if unspectacular institutions. Here, in order to get into a good school, one needs to pass what's called the vestibular, which is a very tough entrance exam - worse than the SAT, ACT or GRE combined. If you don't make it, you don't get in, no matter what your connections.

On the low end, however, there are a ton of schools which will take pretty much near anyone, as long as they have cash. Globo did a story a couple of years ago about how they managed to place an illiterate guy in UniverCidade he in town.

All of the pros I've met who are in school come from these kind of universities and, in every case so far, their entry into prostituion predates their entry into school. They are thus not pros in order to pay for school: they are in school in order to prepare for their leaving prostituion. usually, this escape strategy is combined with others, such as looking for a husband or getting overseas.

So the idea that being a "university girl" is somehow synonymous with "not really" being a prostitute doesn't quite work here. Few women in good schools turn tricks. Why? They don't need to. The federal and state schools - which are generally the best schools in Brazil - are free.

If a girl tells you she's studying full-time at UFRJ, UFF, UFFR, UERJ or PUC, it's something to be impressed with. Most other schools are basically "buy a diploma" mills and even then, few pros manage to make their way completely through their coursework. why? Because it becomes obvious after a year or two studying at these places that their diplomas usually aren't worth the paper they are printed on. There are some exceptions, such as Cândido Mendes (UCAM), perhaps, but they are few and far between. Pros aren't stupid and usually figure out that they are being robbed pretty quickly.

You are not going to find many bonafide professional women and university students from good schools turbning tricks because usually they don't have to. There are, of course, exceptions, but presenting oneself as a poor girl who needs to turn tricks in order to study is a very old strategy here.

Full Throttle, I've been very open about what the work I'm doing is going to result in: an anthropological study of sexual tourism and prostitution in Copacabana. This will almost certainly be in book form and, if all goes well, it'll be ready about three years from now. In the meantime, it's articles, articles, articles, work with Davida and the occasional conference presentation.

I've said this from day one, but that was a while ago, so maybe you didn't see it. In any case, it's no deep secret. :-)

Whether or not a pro ocasionally cums really isn't at issue. I'm certain it does happen from time to time. But I'm also QUITE certain that a guy who goes down on a pro is giving her a VERY clear message: he wants her to cum. And the customer is king in this business.

Frankly, the only people who are REALLY able to tell are the women themselves, and they deny it. They know more about their experiences that we do, so I have no reason to doubt their word. It's not like it's a stigma to come with a client: hell, most pros probably want to, in fact. Anything to kill the boredom.

Most folks don't realize this, but aside from brief spurts of terror, sex work is usually incredibly fucking boring. You are being paid, essentially, to fulfill someone's fantasy. Mostly this means shut up and look nice and feign pleasure while the other person natters on about their life. This is true whether the pro and/or the client is a man or a woman. I used to get paid big bucks not for dancing, but for sitting in booths afterwards, drinking ginger ale at 15 bucks a glass and smiling, while the Junior League from East Sheepshag, Missouri, got wasted and bitched about their husbands, jobs, kids and life in general.

That part is basically the same everywhere. We see it every night in Copa, don't we?I tried to not butt heads with you Mac, but a few quick things. UC San Diego is a better school in most subjects than any school in Brazil; I have never attended UC San Diego nor any university in Brazil, but from rankings, people whom I've known that have attended, and general output from these universities is how I came to this conclusion. Let's not forget that Brazil is a third world country.

Pro's cum, pro's don't cum. Who cares? If you really care if a pro cums, then get a real girlfriend (I'm saying this to everyone).

Mac, I don't think you are who you say. I don't really care if you're a man or a woman, but I doubt your story about being an anthropologist. There was a time when you challenged user Exec Talent from this board to meet and validate his skills pleasing women(pro's); however now, you want to keep your identity secret (not even revealing your sex explicitly, and I realize that you're trying to make it clear that you're male). Were you only bluffing before with Exec Talent about meeting? If you were willing to meet him then why not reveal your identity, credentials, etc.? I just don't think your interaction and behavior is consistent with who you claim to be. Perhaps you're just getting your jollies from these message boards or perhaps you're just some worker for Davida. Perhaps you are an anthropologist wanna-be and are trying to make a living somehow from this eventually by writing a book. You seem to have lived in the U.S. or at least are somewhat familiar with the U.S. It's not usually easy for Brazilians to go to and from the U.S. though especially not lower class Brazilians, but at the same time you state you were an erotic dancer, an occupation that most likely someone low class would have done. Perhaps you were in the U.S. illegally. Please enlighten us of who you really are and your background since you want so much information from us, it would only be fair. I don't think your fear of mongers finding out who you are makes any sense either so don't use that again; no monger is going to do anything to you because that's not what they care about.

Bimbo Boy
11-06-05, 23:52
Macunaima,
Thanks for a very enlightening post. I wish you the best with your research work.
Regards!

Full Throttle
11-07-05, 02:37
//
Frankly, the only people who are REALLY able to tell are the women themselves, and they deny it. They know more about their experiences that we do, so I have no reason to doubt their word. It's not like it's a stigma to come with a client: hell, most pros probably want to, in fact. Anything to kill the boredom.
//

Again, you're right to an extent. BUT, you underestimate "the client" and overestimate "the pro."

Cumming is cumming. I wasn't referring to that. When the girls claim to you and to the other girls that they are academy award winning actresses and are able to put on a ruse for every client, MOST are NOT being truthful.

I am not making this claim in order to justify some sort of emotional tie that I've established with a girl. In fact, I go out of my way to avoid such relationships. I even have a "no repeat" policy that I rarely violate, and a "no three-peat" policy that I almost NEVER violate. So, this discussion is not a matter of pride.

Without digging too deeply, I can think of 10 different situations where I know that a provider has become emotionally attached to a monger. I'm not including "sugar daddy" scenarios. Again, I'm not even in favor of this happening, as I don't think it's good for the girl or the monger, but it happens with tremendous regularity.

You know, Mac, I worry a little about your study. If you were gathering information, it would seem like you would have a more open mind and do more learning and less lecturing. If your primary source of information is the girls, your results will necessarily be flawed. As an Argentine provider friend of mine recently told me, "Las noches son para las mentiras," The nights are for lies.

They lie to each other about how much money they receive from each client. They lie about what services they provide. They lie to their friends and family about their profession. They lie to the government about their income. They lie to their bosses about their menstrual cycles. They lie to their clients about all of the above items and many, many more.

When you say that you have no reason to doubt their word, it means to me that you have A LOT more to learn about this whole sub-culture before your book is ready for publication.

And, the impression I get that you believe you already have the answers could lead to a pseudo-study.

I acknowledge that I haven't read every one of your posts. I also acknowledge that you/you people have some interesting insights and write quite well. I just think you may have narrowed your scope of learning and understanding too much.

FT

Macunaima
11-07-05, 14:24
Full Throttle, they don't need to be Academy Award winning actresses. Why? Two reasons...

1) Your average gringo john arrives here with the idea that Brazilian women are some sort of hyper-sexual females. He WANTS to believe that this is true. This is the base of his entire fantasy here. Sure, there are plenty of gringos who don't fit this description, but the majority do.

2) Most of these guys don't speak Portuguese, don't know the culture, don't grasp much of what is non-verbal communication here. They're half blind, in this sense.

So the women are preforming for very undemanding critics who, in any case, are a bit confused about what's going on. These guys are not what anyone would call "reliable, objective observers".

As for emotional attachment, it's a bit of problem.

Look, for most Americans, emotional atachment means an irrational feeling of love, correct? But that's just one way of generating love. Love can also be a conscious, rational project. In most cultures and for most of human history, it has been that way, in fact. One chooses to fall in love with appropriate objects of affection, consciously and following some greater objective. Whether or not gringos are willing to play sugar daddy, every gringo has one thing most Copa pros want: the ability to get them out of this market and over to the U.S. or Europe where, at the very least, they'll be in a higher paying market. They are thus a good "catch", in general.

This isn't lying or a false ideology: it's simply what I call "practical love" - the kind of love your and my great-grandmothers probably practiced.

So these emotional attachments certain pros form with tourists almost always are backed up by a very concrete plan for the social or economic ascension of the woman in question. It's not orgasms or sexual pleasure which are causing these women to become "loyal" to certain clients which they see as a good bet for stronger ties, any more than it was sexual pleasure which caused your great-grandmother to marry your great-grandfather.

So it seems to me that you're naturalizing the values of your society and spreading them across these women: emotional attachment = sexual fulfillment = an irrational, overwhelming attachment to a man against a woman's better interests. But you aren't realizing the fact that for most human beings here in Brazil - and for most of your ancestors, even - love is a RATIONAL process which has little to do with sex or head-over-heels feelings.

My primary source of info ISN'T the girls or the guys: it's both. I use mongers to talk about mongers and pros about pros. I presume that you guys know where you're coming from and they know where they're coming from. Of course, I present both monger theories about pros and pros theories about mongers, too, but those are THEORIES.

You worry about the objectivity of my study. OK. Fair go. But if I were to start believing that mongers know more about pros' subjective feelings than they do themselves, "objectively speaking", it would only be fair to also presume the opposite, correct?

Tell me, Full Throttle: do you REALLY want to see a book on the shelves where foreign mongers in Brazil are portrayed exclusively the way Brazilian pros see them? What do you think that such a book would mean in terms of fueling the current witch hunt?

So ethically I'm bound to presume that the women know more about their feelings than you guys do and vice versa. You really, really, don't want me - or any other anthro, for that matter - to start taking sides in this mess by saying that one or the other side is more "objective" about what the other side iessentially is and/or thinks.

Now, regarding pros lying, I agree, they do lie. But you SERIOUSLY think mongers are any more truthful about THEIR experiences? You think Exec Talent with his "I'm a super important, highly paid, powerful business executive who thinks nothing of dumping 1000 bucks a night on a girl on the strip" is REALLY how he is in real life?

People lie all the time, FT. Being a pro doesn't change that situation, nor does being a monger. The question for an anthro is when is it that people are LIKELY to lie and when is it that they aren't. The trick is to catch them in a lot of different comments and situations and build off of those with what other people say. But when someone tells you about what they experience, you CANNOT, without cause, presume that they are lying simply because they are a pro or a monger or what have you.

When a pro tells me, for example, that she is in love, I can't say "Oh, she's obviously lying." The proper route is to ask "What do you mean love? How do you feel? What are you going to do about it?" I can then construct a reasonable idea of what love means to her in this context.

And when a monger tells me "I made the pro I was with cum last night", again, the same questions apply. And when I hear that this guy considers himself to be some sort of cocksman and that he went down on the pro and that the "proof" that she came is that she got wet and moaned and thrashed about... Well, it seems to me that a very reasonable interpretation of this story is that it is important for this guy to feel that he's giving pleasure to the women he fucks. Whether or not he actually does is only up to the pros to say.

And when the pros unanimously laugh at stories like these, both when they are asked directly and when they are talking among themselves and not aware that they are being observed and when they write their memoirs, then there are only two possible hypothesis: either all pros are consistently lying to everyone around them and to themselves, all the time, or that one pro was lying to the client in question.

Occam's razor logically suggests the second interpretation as more likely. You know occam's razor, right? It's that logical tool that says all other things being equal, the least complicated explanation is more likely to be true.

Now, as I said, I'm sure there are exceptions. But I'm NOT sure that mongers are the best people to perceive and/or talk about these exceptions. I'd rather let the pros do it.

Trippleecks
11-07-05, 15:19
Macunaima .. that is the exact reply I would expect from a woman... The term Erotic Dancer is even worse...

If you are a man (which I doubt) then you should NEVER give your password to your wife.....

Macunaima
11-07-05, 15:53
Don't worry, NoddN. My perception of sex differences seems to be a bit more well-tuned than yours. ;-)

Sal Dali
11-07-05, 16:18
another hypothesis is that the lie told publically, and the one told to the self serve very different purposes. what does it mean to the gdp to have orgasms with clients? is there some form of control or power that is conjured as being superior by being successfully resistent to your own body's response to sexual activity, versus a weakness being inferred if you do (climax)? what would it mean to a gdp to have orgasms with clients and admit to them (to their peers and to the self) versus denying them?

the psychological impact of such awarenesses could be considerably different depending upon the the social pressures a gdp feels from her peers versus the intrapsychic pressures she feels for reasons that might range from religious to pathologic (the latter being understandably variant from culture to culture).

thoughts?

btw, this is not about an attempt to prove that they have more orgasms than they suggest. they might or they might not. it is an attempt to engage in an interesting discussion within what is now the appropriate forum.

thanks

sd





and when the pros unanimously laugh at stories like these, both when they are asked directly and when they are talking among themselves and not aware that they are being observed and when they write their memoirs, then there are only two possible hypothesis: either all pros are consistently lying to everyone around them and to themselves, all the time, or that one pro was lying to the client in question.

Macunaima
11-07-05, 19:11
i dunno, sal. first you'd have to show that social pressure exists among the pro's peers to not have orgasms. this is an intriguing hypothesis and one worth investigating, but so far i've seen no indication, at all, that pro's find climaxing to be taboo or humiliating. i have seen one occasion where a pro claimed to cum with a client. far from censoring her or laughing at her, the other girls at the table claimed that she was lucky.

so if you've got some evidence to show that this is something pros socially control among each other, i'd love to see it, because it's a neat theory from a social anth viewpoint, but as far as i can see, there's not much to back it up.

when i say that pros laugh at stories like these, i mean that they laugh when other pros tell stories about how clients feel that their sexual pleasure makes any difference to them in the performance of their work.

Macunaima
11-07-05, 19:46
Sorry, Comgo, just saw your post right now.

While UC San Diego may be a better school than most Brazilian schools, that wasn't the point of my post. My point was is that it's considered to be a mid-range school AMONG AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES. A perfectly competent university but not in the same league as, say, Harvard, Yale or Stanford.

Would you agree with this analysis? Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Now, my point is that we have only two types of schools here: the high end and the low end. We have institutions which, in spite of their limitations, are the equivalent HERE of Harvard and Yale, and we have institutions which are the equivalent of Pastor Johnny's Community College and Bait and Tackle Shop. We DO NOT have universities that are mid-range, like the US San Diego is in the U.S.

I'm not comparing UCSD with Brazilian universities: I'm comparing it with American universities and saying we have no like similarly situated institutions in Brazil.

Whether UCSD is better than most universities here is also not in doubt, because 80 percent of our students, at least, are going to the equivalent of PJCC&B&T.

Is UCSD better than, say, USP? Hard to say. Unlike you, I've actually gone to CU Boulder and UW Madison in the U.S. and USP and UFRJ here. Overall, I'd have to say that the best Brazilian universities are pretty damned good and can hold their own with at least the midrange of American schools. When you say "Brazil is a third world country", you forget that we're more like India than, say, Laos. "Third World" doesn't mean "everybody and every place there is exactly the same". If we were so completely incompetent at producing scientists and researchers, your country wouldn't be snapping up all they can get from places like us and India. USP and federal schools here are well recognized in the U.S. for being centers of excellence, at least in some fields. My own very extensive expereince in this area tends to back that up. When I asked for an internship at the Smithsonian three years ago with my UFRJ masters, no eyebrows were raised at all and I got qhat I asked for, plus a decent stipend.

Now, regarding rankings, I've never seen one that's seriously attempted to compare U.S. and Brazilian universities. If you have, I'd love to know about it, so please post a link!

As for keeping my identity secret, meeting with someone and posting data about myself here are two entirely seperate things. And you misconstrue my challenge to ET: it wasn't about "pleasing a woman". ET claims he can pick up "normal women" with no difficulty at all here in Rio. All I challenged him to do was to put his money where his mouth is by going to a neighborhood where there are not many gringo-chasers or pros, keeping his money in his pocket and trying. That's a completely different prospect.

Meeting with folks isn't usually risky, Comgo. Giving them your real name, phone number and etc. IS. As for my being male or not, what's meeting with me going to prove? If I am in fact several people as Nodd N and others claim, any one of us could meet with ET, correct?

As for bits of my identity that I've already talked about, I'm a gringo who immigrated here about 20 years ago (15 years ago full time) and no, I don't come from a particularly privileged background. Why, however, you think that anthropologists must necessarily come from the upper class, however, is anyone's guess. I've always been a scholarship student, myself. The time I worked as a stripper, I did so because I could make a good, flat 300 USD cash on a weekend night and I needed a couple of thousand, fast. This is, in fact, why most people get involved in sex work. Why did I need the money? I was putting cash away to spend a year studying at USP and the scholarship I got covered only travel, tuition, room and board. I figured I also wanted to go up to see Bahia and vacation around on the holidays, so when my funding request came through and I only had a few months to make some cash, dancing looked like a good option, especially as I had friends already involved in it and they assured me that it was safe and well-paying, if boring, work.

Why you think my behavior here is so "unanthropological" is also anyone's guess. What do you think anthros do, exactly? Sit in ivory towers and think Deep thoughts? We're considered the bad boys and girls of the social scientist community precisely because we get our hands dirty with participant observation. Ethically, anthros are supposed to make their findings accessible to the comunities they study, which is one of the reasons I post here and work with Davida. The fact of the matter is, most anthros who work with sex tourists do indeed look down on you guys and feel no ethical need to expose their theories to your criticisms and witticisms. If that's "normal" in sex work anthropology, it is CERTAINLY not ethical. The fact that most anthros who do this work are women and feminists also makes it easier to simply ignore you boys as "the brutal oppressors", which is complete bullshit.

Full Throttle
11-07-05, 20:47
Sorry, Comgo, just saw your post right now.

While UC San Diego may be a better school than most Brazilian schools, that wasn't the point of my post. My point was is that it's considered to be a mid-range school AMONG AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES. A perfectly competent university but not in the same league as, say, Harvard, Yale or Stanford.


You once again are off base. UC San Diego compares favorably to those very institutions you refer to in many academic respects. Ranked higher than Stanford in academic difficulty and harder to get in. It is consistently ranked in the top ten for academic difficulty in the whole country. Maybe if you had said San Diego State, instead...

AND, you just couldn't be more wrong about the pros and their orgasms. I don't really care that you disagree and don't think that you're lying, but you're just plain wrong about this.

Go Aztecs!

FT

Traveler1234
11-07-05, 20:58
Sorry, Comgo, just saw your post right now.

While UC San Diego may be a better school than most Brazilian schools, that wasn't the point of my post. My point was is that it's considered to be a mid-range school AMONG AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES. A perfectly competent university but not in the same league as, say, Harvard, Yale or Stanford.
.

As noted by others, UCSD actually ranks as one of the top ten public institutions. In California, the historical ranking of state schools: Berkeley #1, UCLA and UCSD #2/3 (flip a coin on which is which). Min. 1500 old SAT scores plus GPA 3.8 required to get admission.

For out of state students - it's even tougher, they have a formula based on SAT scores, GPA and honors classes. No holistic evaluations, eg essays, letters of recom considered. If you don't have 1500 SAT, GPA 3.8 plus AP classes, they don't recommend you apply as out of state....I went through this with both my boys 2-3 yrs ago and competition to get in now even tougher.

Macunaima
11-07-05, 22:24
Obviously we have some U. of C. San Diego fans here. LOL.

My comments were not meant to insult UCSD. 20 years ago, when I was a student in the U.S., it was not considered to be one of the top US
institutions. And while it may rank as one of the top 10 PUBLIC institutions today, there's precisely that adjective "public" to deal with, isn't there?

And please remember I said "competent and unspectacular". That's hardly a claim that the school sucks.

But looking at U.S. Blues & World Distort's school ranking - which I'm sure we can agree is a reasonably objective measuring stick - UCSD is number 32 out of 120 on their list of top national universities. That's "high mid-range" to me. Your mileage may vary.

But if you're in a snit because I named UCSD, let's take Rutgers, Ohio State, University of Texas, Austin and Syracuse as the measure of "mid-range" and "competent, but unspectacular". USN&WR puts them all between 50 and 60.

Whatever school you want to choose to make the point, however, the point still stands. There just is no mid-range in Brazil. You're either in the top 20 or so or you'd better not bother.

Bimbo Boy
11-08-05, 00:12
Macunaima,

What is your personal moral view on mongering? Do you condemn it and view us all as as worthless, or do you accept it? I am sincerely interested in your opinion.

My personal position is that I only want to monger with girls that have a choice (which is usually the case in Brazil), I refuse to pay for girls that are beaten and forced into prostitution (like in Russia).

Regards.

El Austriaco
11-08-05, 01:08
My personal position is that I only want to monger with girls that have a choice (which is usually the case in Brazil), I refuse to pay for girls that are beaten and forced into prostitution (like in Russia).
Very good point, Bimbo Boy, I see it exactly the same way. Maybe that's been the reason that I never liked places like Thailand, for example, P4P-wise. Picking up a freelancer in Copacabana that I get along with on a personal level is one thing, picking a girl out of a lineup in a Bangkok brothel is another one. At least for me.

EA

Macunaima
11-08-05, 02:05
I personally am not a monger. That said, I have no moral views on it, one way or another, as long as we're talking women who are in the trade of their own free will.

My personal view is that these women should have unions and - most importantly - career planning help, so that they can get out of the trade if and when they want to. If you want to catch the assholes, you don't need to go after mongers: Brazil's sex and violence laws simply need to be enforced.

TYhe law here is quite clear: it's OK to prostitute oneself, NOT OK to prostitute another person. That seems to me to be a pretty good basis for social action on prostitution.

Comgo
11-08-05, 03:35
Sorry, Comgo, just saw your post right now.

While UC San Diego may be a better school than most Brazilian schools, that wasn't the point of my post. My point was is that it's considered to be a mid-range school AMONG AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES. A perfectly competent university but not in the same league as, say, Harvard, Yale or Stanford.

Would you agree with this analysis? Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Now, my point is that we have only two types of schools here: the high end and the low end. We have institutions which, in spite of their limitations, are the equivalent HERE of Harvard and Yale, and we have institutions which are the equivalent of Pastor Johnny's Community College and Bait and Tackle Shop. We DO NOT have universities that are mid-range, like the US San Diego is in the U.S.

I'm not comparing UCSD with Brazilian universities: I'm comparing it with American universities and saying we have no like similarly situated institutions in Brazil.

Whether UCSD is better than most universities here is also not in doubt, because 80 percent of our students, at least, are going to the equivalent of PJCC&B&T.

Is UCSD better than, say, USP? Hard to say. Unlike you, I've actually gone to CU Boulder and UW Madison in the U.S. and USP and UFRJ here. Overall, I'd have to say that the best Brazilian universities are pretty damned good and can hold their own with at least the midrange of American schools. When you say "Brazil is a third world country", you forget that we're more like India than, say, Laos. "Third World" doesn't mean "everybody and every place there is exactly the same". If we were so completely incompetent at producing scientists and researchers, your country wouldn't be snapping up all they can get from places like us and India. USP and federal schools here are well recognized in the U.S. for being centers of excellence, at least in some fields. My own very extensive expereince in this area tends to back that up. When I asked for an internship at the Smithsonian three years ago with my UFRJ masters, no eyebrows were raised at all and I got qhat I asked for, plus a decent stipend.

Now, regarding rankings, I've never seen one that's seriously attempted to compare U.S. and Brazilian universities. If you have, I'd love to know about it, so please post a link!

As for keeping my identity secret, meeting with someone and posting data about myself here are two entirely seperate things. And you misconstrue my challenge to ET: it wasn't about "pleasing a woman". ET claims he can pick up "normal women" with no difficulty at all here in Rio. All I challenged him to do was to put his money where his mouth is by going to a neighborhood where there are not many gringo-chasers or pros, keeping his money in his pocket and trying. That's a completely different prospect.

Meeting with folks isn't usually risky, Comgo. Giving them your real name, phone number and etc. IS. As for my being male or not, what's meeting with me going to prove? If I am in fact several people as Nodd N and others claim, any one of us could meet with ET, correct?

As for bits of my identity that I've already talked about, I'm a gringo who immigrated here about 20 years ago (15 years ago full time) and no, I don't come from a particularly privileged background. Why, however, you think that anthropologists must necessarily come from the upper class, however, is anyone's guess. I've always been a scholarship student, myself. The time I worked as a stripper, I did so because I could make a good, flat 300 USD cash on a weekend night and I needed a couple of thousand, fast. This is, in fact, why most people get involved in sex work. Why did I need the money? I was putting cash away to spend a year studying at USP and the scholarship I got covered only travel, tuition, room and board. I figured I also wanted to go up to see Bahia and vacation around on the holidays, so when my funding request came through and I only had a few months to make some cash, dancing looked like a good option, especially as I had friends already involved in it and they assured me that it was safe and well-paying, if boring, work.

Why you think my behavior here is so "unanthropological" is also anyone's guess. What do you think anthros do, exactly? Sit in ivory towers and think Deep thoughts? We're considered the bad boys and girls of the social scientist community precisely because we get our hands dirty with participant observation. Ethically, anthros are supposed to make their findings accessible to the comunities they study, which is one of the reasons I post here and work with Davida. The fact of the matter is, most anthros who work with sex tourists do indeed look down on you guys and feel no ethical need to expose their theories to your criticisms and witticisms. If that's "normal" in sex work anthropology, it is CERTAINLY not ethical. The fact that most anthros who do this work are women and feminists also makes it easier to simply ignore you boys as "the brutal oppressors", which is complete bullshit.Regarding UCSD, in a later post you state it's #32 out of 120, that's not out of 120 total but out of the TOP 120 in the U.S. UCSD is considered a top tier school (usually top 50 is considered top tier); a top tier school in the U.S. is top tier in the world. I'd also like to add that UCLA is generally accepted as being better than UCSD in most subjects in regards to someone else saying it's a coin toss between them, I don't think it is that close. Now you state, top Brazilian schools are well respected, perhaps in anthropology because I'm not that familiar with how schools stack up in that field, but not in most other subjects that I am familiar with. However, I see your point that in Brazil you have YOUR good schools and the rest are diploma mills and no in-between.

I have to disagree with the U.S. snapping up Brazilian and Indian scientists. Where have you seen this happening? You're considering anthropology, sociology, and so on as social sciences and thus people that work in those fields as scientists, correct? Because I don't, I consider anthropology, sociology, etc. as puff fields and not real science. Everyone that went to college knows that these subjects are up there with art and basket weaving. I've yet to see big chemists, physicists, and mathematicians coming from Brazil or India in any relatively large amount (there's always people that want to and do come to the U.S.). Also, perhaps the Smithsonian accepted you for diversity's sake. Diversity is quite big in academic circles and you should be aware that standards are lowered to accommodate it.

So, you're just a gringo that moved to Brazil many years ago, but you NEVER were with a GDP? I find this EXTREMELY hard to believe. You even were willing to work in the sex industry and claim to not view it as immoral. This doesn't sound right. I don't care if you can get it all day for free, so can most guys (it just depends on how low your standards are relative to yourself), I don't buy that you never were with a GDP. Now if you told me that it's something that you never regularly did, I can believe that, but I don't believe that you never did it at all. The way you talk, I'd think it's likely that you've even been a GDP yourself when money got tight or you wanted something out of your budget since you so easily and quickly got into erotic dancing when you needed some quick cash. I also didn't say anthropologists come from some upper class, you misconstrued what I said. I said Brazilians that can go to and from the U.S. as you were implying that you did in the past generally have to be upper class or do it illegally. However, all of that is moot, since you aren't Brazilian as I thought but a gringo.

No one wanted your phone number. Just some background about your credentials since you're here in a supposed "professional" capacity. The reason that I question who you claim to be is because of your behavior. You're very antagonistic and while I agree that sometimes you are attacked, you are the one here in a professional capacity while everyone else isn't. I would expect you to act in a more reserved manner. I would also say you constantly taint and try to skew your "subjects", which is very unprofessional as well. You also say that your book will be ready in 3 years so you obviously aren't done, so it seems premature that you share any findings. If your colleagues look down upon us, you should let them know that the feeling is mutual since their work and expertise is about as important as a cashier at McDonald's. If they think that they'll affect the oldest profession in the world, they're sadly mistaken.

Sal Dali
11-08-05, 04:25
. A perfectly competent university but not in the same league as, say, Harvard, Yale or Stanford.

Stanford, sure . . . but I've never heard of those other two schools. Are they associate degree program schools?

:)

SD

Appleone
11-08-05, 05:10
Once again, like a moth to the flame, I am drawn in . . . .

UC San Diego is a fine school that has improved enormously in the last 30 years and ranks with any institution in areas that touch on the biological sciences, but still lacks the overall breadth of excellence to be considered a true top tier university. Keeping in mind that the guy uttering that opinion (me) could be a bit biased, having attended Stanford and UC Berkeley (Sal Dali: Yale and Harvard are the padded cells where the inbred Eastern elite store their kids during late adolescence to ensure that they don't get exposed to the real world). UC San Diego, like Berkeley, is academically rigorous, and the courses are harder than Stanford, but the kids at Stanford IMHO end up learning a lot more, because the structure encourages them to learn things that are not part of the class. Mac's observations about UC San Diego being a mid tier school may have been valid 20 years ago, when Mac moved to Brasil, but given the strides the campus has made since then no longer are today.

From personal experience, Mac's post of early this morning (6:24 AM) regarding how GDPs and many other women outside the US form relationships is spot on. I've worked a great deal outside the US over the last twenty years, and have found that virtually everywhere else where a woman has a choice she first selects someone who meets certain economic and social status criteria as who she wants to marry, then after getting to know him starts to develop an emotional bond. I would be very surprised if Brasilian women are different. In the US, however, we have a culture (fanned by the media) of romantic love/instant lust, which is reflected in our divorce rates. Many of the women I date in the US are immigrants, and would not even consider starting to fall in love with someone who did not meet their very quantitative profile of a suitable marriage partner. Fortunately, they will have sex with men who don't :-) I assume Brasilian GDPs who reach a certain age are equally sensible, although the number who have had kids to absent fathers when they were 18 shows their judgment is less than impeccable. That doesn't mean that once they find someone who meets their criteria they don't become fond of that person -- I suspect often they do, both because that is the path of least resistance and it has survival value.

Sperto
11-08-05, 07:16
I've been to a brothel with girls locked up behind bars in a prison-like style in Fortaleza. A very ugly sight. I left quickly.
Macunaima, is this common in Brazil?

Cunnilinguist
11-08-05, 17:07
You once again are off base. UC San Diego compares favorably to those very institutions you refer to in many academic respects. Ranked higher than Stanford in academic difficulty and harder to get in. It is consistently ranked in the top ten for academic difficulty in the whole country. Maybe if you had said San Diego State, instead...

AND, you just couldn't be more wrong about the pros and their orgasms. I don't really care that you disagree and don't think that you're lying, but you're just plain wrong about this.

Go Aztecs!

FTBased on who’s rankings?

U.S. News & World reports (which provides the most recognized U.S. college rankings) differs from your assessment of UC San Diego.


2006 Top National Universities

1 Harvard University (MA)
1 Princeton University (NJ)
3 Yale University (CT)
4 University of Pennsylvania
5 Duke University (NC)
5 Stanford University (CA)
7 California Institute of Technology
7 Massachusetts Inst. of Technology
9 Columbia University (NY)
9 Dartmouth College (NH)
11 Washington University in St. Louis
12 Northwestern University (IL)
13 Cornell University (NY)
13 Johns Hopkins University (MD)
15 Brown University (RI)
15 University of Chicago
17 Rice University (TX)
18 University of Notre Dame (IN)
18 Vanderbilt University (TN)
20 Emory University (GA)
20 University of California – Berkeley*
22 Carnegie Mellon University (PA)
23 Georgetown University (DC)
23 University of Virginia*
25 Univ. of California – Los Angeles*
25 University of Michigan – Ann Arbor*
27 Tufts University (MA)
27 U. of North Carolina – Chapel Hill*
27 Wake Forest University (NC)
30 Univ. of Southern California
31 College of William and Mary (VA)*
32 Lehigh University (PA)
32 Univ. of California – San Diego*
34 Brandeis University (MA)
34 University of Rochester (NY)
34 Univ. of Wisconsin – Madison*
37 Case Western Reserve Univ. (OH)
37 Georgia Institute of Technology*
37 New York University
40 Boston College
40 University of California – Irvine*
42 U. of Illinois – Urbana - Champaign*
43 Rensselaer Polytechnic Inst. (NY)
43 Tulane University (LA)
45 Univ. of California – Santa Barbara*
45 University of Washington*
45 Yeshiva University (NY)
48 Pennsylvania State U. – University Park*
48 University of California – Davis*
50 Syracuse University (NY)


Source: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php

The CunningLinguist

Cunnilinguist
11-08-05, 17:37
As noted by others, UCSD actually ranks as one of the top ten public institutions. In California, the historical ranking of state schools: Berkeley #1, UCLA and UCSD #2/3 (flip a coin on which is which). Min. 1500 old SAT scores plus GPA 3.8 required to get admission.

For out of state students - it's even tougher, they have a formula based on SAT scores, GPA and honors classes. No holistic evaluations, eg essays, letters of recom considered. If you don't have 1500 SAT, GPA 3.8 plus AP classes, they don't recommend you apply as out of state....I went through this with both my boys 2-3 yrs ago and competition to get in now even tougher.Again, based on who’s rankings?

U.S. News & World reports (which provides the most recognized U.S. college rankings) ranking of western universities differs from your assessment of UC San Diego.

2006 Western Comprehensive Colleges – Bachelor’s: Top Schools

1 Linfield College (OR)
2 Oklahoma Baptist University
3 Carroll College (MT)
4 Brigham Young University – Hawaii
4 Texas Lutheran University
6 Master's Col. and Seminary (CA)
7 Oklahoma Christian U.
8 Rocky Mountain College (MT)
9 Corban College (OR)
10 Vanguard University of Southern California
11 East Texas Baptist University
11 McMurry University (TX)
13 Howard Payne University (TX)
13 Oklahoma Wesleyan University
15 Northwest Christian College (OR)
15 Pacific Union College (CA)
17 Concordia University – Austin (TX)
18 Univ. of Science and Arts of Okla.*
19 Northwest University (WA)
20 Lubbock Christian University (TX)
20 Sierra Nevada College (NV)

Source: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/ccbach/ccwest/tier1/t1ccbach_w_brief.php

The rankings show that UCSD isn’t even ranked as one of the top ten western schools. In all fairness to the discussion, Mac’s comparisons of universities between the two countries, was on a national level. University rankings from a particular state (California) is not relevant.

The CunningLinguist

Cunnilinguist
11-08-05, 19:28
Regarding UCSD, in a later post you state it's #32 out of 120, that's not out of 120 total but out of the TOP 120 in the U.S. UCSD is considered a top tier school (usually top 50 is considered top tier); a top tier school in the U.S. is top tier in the world. I'd also like to add that UCLA is generally accepted as being better than UCSD in most subjects in regards to someone else saying it's a coin toss between them, I don't think it is that close. Now you state, top Brazilian schools are well respected, perhaps in anthropology because I'm not that familiar with how schools stack up in that field, but not in most other subjects that I am familiar with. However, I see your point that in Brazil you have YOUR good schools and the rest are diploma mills and no in-between.

I have to disagree with the U.S. snapping up Brazilian and Indian scientists. Where have you seen this happening? You're considering anthropology, sociology, and so on as social sciences and thus people that work in those fields as scientists, correct? Because I don't, I consider anthropology, sociology, etc. as puff fields and not real science. Everyone that went to college knows that these subjects are up there with art and basket weaving. I've yet to see big chemists, physicists, and mathematicians coming from Brazil or India in any relatively large amount (there's always people that want to and do come to the U.S.). Also, perhaps the Smithsonian accepted you for diversity's sake. Diversity is quite big in academic circles and you should be aware that standards are lowered to accommodate it.Comgo

Several statements written here are inaccurate, prejudicial, and smacks in the face of arrogance. Social science is a proven and well respected field of science, hence a “real” science. The word Science as defined in the following source: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science states:

Science is a way to get knowledge. The word "science" is from the Latin word scientia, which means "to know" or "knowledge". Scientists get their knowledge by starting with experience and taking facts and rules from it.

Social scientist fall under that realm of science, therefore your statement of opinion is in fact a statement of error.

When government leaders, policy makers, and think tanks (global view) wish to shape laws and policy (which are social) who do they turn to…physicists & biochemists???? No, they look to the experts in the social sciences.

Mac is a respected member of this forum though I may not always agree with what he has to say nevertheless, many of his posts are very enlightening and provide this forum on brazil with much more depth and breadth.

Neither you nor I know this individual personally, therefore you have no right to undermine or chastise neither his profession nor his expertise in it. But worse you feel that you can do so in his forum.

Criticize his statements, challenge his ideas, confront his findings….but don’t attack his integrity nor his stature within his profession. We are adults in this forum, its time some of us start writing like ones.

The CunningLinguist

Gladiator
11-08-05, 22:10
Very good point, Bimbo Boy, I see it exactly the same way. Maybe that's been the reason that I never liked places like Thailand, for example, P4P-wise. Picking up a freelancer in Copacabana that I get along with on a personal level is one thing, picking a girl out of a lineup in a Bangkok brothel is another one. At least for me.

EA

Austriaco,

I don’t know why you associate girls who are forced into prostitution with Bangkok brothels: all hookers who work in tourist-orientated mainstream Thai brothels (MP’s, etc) are working there voluntarily, in the same way as girls who work in the main termas in Rio, for instance – they have made the choice of working as hookers in an establishment because that happened to be their best career option in their circumstances.

If your intention was to highlight that you enjoy more picking up freelancers rather than girls out of a fishbowl because that way you can interact with them and see if you get along, I agree with you, but that shouldn’t prevent you from travelling to Thailand as Thailand dwarfs Brazil in the number of freelancers available in discos and other venues, not to mention the variety of go-go’s, beer-bars, etc where you can interact with the girls that work there for as long as you like before taking them out.

El Austriaco
11-08-05, 23:59
I don’t know why you associate girls who are forced into prostitution with Bangkok brothels: all hookers who work in tourist-orientated mainstream Thai brothels (MP’s, etc) are working there voluntarily, in the same way as girls who work in the main termas in Rio, for instance – they have made the choice of working as hookers in an establishment because that happened to be their best career option in their circumstances.
I was just using an example, and when I hear forced prostitution, yes, Thailand was the first place that came to mind. Perhaps I am already too brainwashed from the numerous news stories about sexual slavery in Thailand/South-East Asia. Or maybe it was just one bad experience I had one time in Bangkok when locals took me to a brothel, and there, neither girl looked like she was there of her own free will, and neither seemed to have any enthusiasm about getting picked out of the lineup. So I didn't. And no, I wasn't trying to say that all (or most) Thai hookers are forced into prostitution. Of course not.

I don't have any great mongering experience in Thailand, so I have never posted there. I greatly enjoy Thailand (having been there twice), and wouldn't mind going back. Not speaking the language, though, is sort of a downer for me, personally, because I enjoy being able to communicate beyond the bare necessities with the girls. And that's why I've almost exclusively mongered in Spanish-speaking countries and Brazil. But thanks for the correction.

EA

Macunaima
11-09-05, 00:18
Comgo sez:
"You're considering anthropology, sociology, and so on as social sciences and thus people that work in those fields as scientists, correct?"

Nope. Hard sciences and engineering. i have one friend working at John Hopkins right now, one at UCSD (ironically enough) and a third at Austin, all in bio sciences.

You do realize Brazil's right behind the U.S. in the number two slot in mapping the human genome, correct? We actually have a fair number of very good schools here. Two of those friends of mine, frex, did their work out at Oswaldo Cruz, which is internationally known in the field of tropical medicine.

"So, you're just a gringo that moved to Brazil many years ago, but you NEVER were with a GDP?"

Believe it or not, that's the case. In 1984, Brazil wasn't the sexual tourism destination spot it is today and I was 17. After that, I was in college in the States and it's not at all hard to get laid there, so why pay? When I came back, I was at USP where ditto, ditto.

"The way you talk, I'd think it's likely that you've even been a GDP yourself when money got tight or you wanted something out of your budget since you so easily and quickly got into erotic dancing when you needed some quick cash."

Back in 1986, AIDS was huge. Frankly, there was no way I was going to be making a habit out of having sex with strangers back then, protection or no protection. I fucked around alot, but with people who I at least knew, and not for pay.

Believe it or not, Comgo, there are plenty of men who've never been with a pro, even in Brazil. In fact, I'd say the majority, at least in my generation.

Yep. I'm a gringo and a naturalized Brazilian citizen. In fact, I have THREE nationalities and three different passports. It's not been too much trouble to travel around internationally. And you forget that it was a whole HELL of a lot easier back in the early '80s.

"You're very antagonistic and while I agree that sometimes you are attacked, you are the one here in a professional capacity while everyone else isn't."

ROFL! Comgo, you just accused me of lying, of being a prostitute and of being professionally incompetent (I must be, right? After all, the Smithsonian accpeted me for "diversity's sake"...). Do you have any idea how people would react if I said anything like what you just said to me? And you think I'm the one being antagonistic?

Cum again? LOL

As for "professional capacity", you miscontrue things. I'm not getting paid for anything. This is all on my own dime and for ETHICAL, not professional, reasons. And I think my manner here has been pretty damned reserved. Look at the stuff you just accused me of in an off-hand way: now go through my posts and see if you can find anything similiar in any case where I wasn't reacting to a direct insult.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that I'm being so damned outrageous, Comgo, given the crap you've just said. And look, here I am, smiling about it. Did I attack you, ever? Nope.

As for "skewing" my subjects, it's one thing to say that, another to show it. how, exactly, am I skewing my subjects? Frankly, the term doesn't even make sense from a social scientific view point, so what are you trying to say, exactly? That I'm "unobjective" because I don't happen to agree with you on some points?

BTW, if you want to talk about being aggressive, rude and spamming, it's really annoying to repost someone's post, entire, just in order to comment on it.


Sperto asks...

"I've been to a brothel with girls locked up behind bars in a prison-like style in Fortaleza. A very ugly sight. I left quickly.
Macunaima, is this common in Brazil?"

Like everywhere else, you tend to get what you pay for. When that's 20 real programas, it ain't much. there's prostituion at every economic level here, and while beauty and ugliness can be found anywhere, the higher one is willing to pay, generally the more prettier the women are.

El Austriaco
11-09-05, 01:28
I've been to a brothel with girls locked up behind bars in a prison-like style in Fortaleza. A very ugly sight. I left quickly.
Macunaima, is this common in Brazil?
Mac, I think what Sperto meant to ask was actually whether forced prostitution, or the selling of women into sexual slavery and/or debt bondage, was a common pratice in Brazil. Whenever I hear this, reference is made to Eastern European countries, Nepal, India, South-East Asia, just to name a few that come to mind right now. I was gonna ask the same thing.

EA

Comgo
11-09-05, 02:14
Comgo sez:
"You're considering anthropology, sociology, and so on as social sciences and thus people that work in those fields as scientists, correct?"

Nope. Hard sciences and engineering. i have one friend working at John Hopkins right now, one at UCSD (ironically enough) and a third at Austin, all in bio sciences.

You do realize Brazil's right behind the U.S. in the number two slot in mapping the human genome, correct? We actually have a fair number of very good schools here. Two of those friends of mine, frex, did their work out at Oswaldo Cruz, which is internationally known in the field of tropical medicine.

"So, you're just a gringo that moved to Brazil many years ago, but you NEVER were with a GDP?"

Believe it or not, that's the case. In 1984, Brazil wasn't the sexual tourism destination spot it is today and I was 17. After that, I was in college in the States and it's not at all hard to get laid there, so why pay? When I came back, I was at USP where ditto, ditto.

"The way you talk, I'd think it's likely that you've even been a GDP yourself when money got tight or you wanted something out of your budget since you so easily and quickly got into erotic dancing when you needed some quick cash."

Back in 1986, AIDS was huge. Frankly, there was no way I was going to be making a habit out of having sex with strangers back then, protection or no protection. I fucked around alot, but with people who I at least knew, and not for pay.

Believe it or not, Comgo, there are plenty of men who've never been with a pro, even in Brazil. In fact, I'd say the majority, at least in my generation.

Yep. I'm a gringo and a naturalized Brazilian citizen. In fact, I have THREE nationalities and three different passports. It's not been too much trouble to travel around internationally. And you forget that it was a whole HELL of a lot easier back in the early '80s.

"You're very antagonistic and while I agree that sometimes you are attacked, you are the one here in a professional capacity while everyone else isn't."

ROFL! Comgo, you just accused me of lying, of being a prostitute and of being professionally incompetent (I must be, right? After all, the Smithsonian accpeted me for "diversity's sake"...). Do you have any idea how people would react if I said anything like what you just said to me? And you think I'm the one being antagonistic?

Cum again? LOL

As for "professional capacity", you miscontrue things. I'm not getting paid for anything. This is all on my own dime and for ETHICAL, not professional, reasons. And I think my manner here has been pretty damned reserved. Look at the stuff you just accused me of in an off-hand way: now go through my posts and see if you can find anything similiar in any case where I wasn't reacting to a direct insult.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that I'm being so damned outrageous, Comgo, given the crap you've just said. And look, here I am, smiling about it. Did I attack you, ever? Nope.

As for "skewing" my subjects, it's one thing to say that, another to show it. how, exactly, am I skewing my subjects? Frankly, the term doesn't even make sense from a social scientific view point, so what are you trying to say, exactly? That I'm "unobjective" because I don't happen to agree with you on some points?

BTW, if you want to talk about being aggressive, rude and spamming, it's really annoying to repost someone's post, entire, just in order to comment on it.


Sperto asks...

"I've been to a brothel with girls locked up behind bars in a prison-like style in Fortaleza. A very ugly sight. I left quickly.
Macunaima, is this common in Brazil?"

Like everywhere else, you tend to get what you pay for. When that's 20 real programas, it ain't much. there's prostituion at every economic level here, and while beauty and ugliness can be found anywhere, the higher one is willing to pay, generally the more prettier the women are.

First, I quote your whole post as a point of reference, and it's not really important enough for me to cut and paste every little bit that I directly address. Second, mapping of the human genome is an international project and it's finished so I'm not sure what you mean by Brazil is second behind the U.S. Third, there's people from all over the world in universities in the U.S., it has much to do with that whole diversity thing I mentioned earlier. Yes, I suppose being the country that contains the most rainforests and the Amazon would give Brazil an advantage in tropical medicine, so what? It's not exactly a huge field. Fourth, you state you could get laid easily so why pay, well, if you are indeed who you say you are you should know the answer to why pay. Fifth, I know plenty of people haven't been with a pro, but those people are not ex-erotic dancers who study prostitution for a living; also, I believe P4P was big in Brazil even in 1984 something a few people on this board can attest to. Sixth, I don't look at it as accusing, but trying to call you on a few things that don't sit right with me about what you say. You also could be taking it better now because of my pointing out that you should be more reserved and professional. However, I still think you taunted and mocked other board members on here when you shouldn't have because of your reason for being here, make sense? Seventh (yes, I can count to ten on good days), I didn't think that you're being paid to be here, but you are here for professional reasons rather than why most everyone else is here, correct? Saying what I said is crap is an off-hand way of attacking me also just as you're saying that I'm making attacks in an off-hand way. Eighth, you're skewing your "subjects" by instead of observing them to see how they perceive things, you're telling them how you and the pro's perceive them as if it's fact and that's it. Lastly, I'm not even sure what we don't agree about in terms of pro's, I really think they cum rarely if ever with a client, and I don't care if they ever do. I just question your intentions and who you claim to be,that's all.

Ezinho
11-09-05, 04:13
Mac, not that this discussion about how good of a school UCSD is isn't interesting, but I wanted to get your opinion on Brasilian mongers vs. Gringo mongers. Specifically their behavior compared to gringos. Now, I'm not talking about the Brasilian guys you would see hanging out at the VM on a Saturday night, struggling to come up with the 25 reais that is needed for a 30 min programma. I'm talking about the white collar, upper class Brasilian men that frequent the same establishments that we (as in gringo mongers) frequent (i.e. termas, boites, etc.) Of course, the main question is, do you even observe and study Brasilian mongers, or just gringos? If the answer is no, then you might not be able to answer my questions, but here goes:

1. Does the issue of "does a pro cum with her clients?" ever come up with Brasilian mongers? Do they even care, or is it such an asinine question that they don't even give it a second thought? So essentially what I'm asking is that if a bunch of Brasilian mongers came on this site and saw this debate, would they burst out in laughter?

2. The topic has been brought up before about gringos coming to Brasil, falling in love with a pro, and then marrying her. Do you know how common among Brasilian men this is, falling in love with a pro they meet at a terma, for example? Again I'm talking about white collar upper class types.

3. Is there a reason why Brasilian men seem to prefer the centro termas over the ones in Copacabana? (I already have my own opinion on this one, just wanted to see what your perspective is). Is there some sort of stigma for Brasilian men to come to Copa to monger?

4. And speaking of Copa, how do Cariocas view Help? I say Cariocas because the times I have been there, I would say it has been 98% gringos, and 2% Brasilians (I'm just pulling these numbers out of my ass btw), but the Brasilians were not Cariocas, but from other parts of Brasil, Paulistanos I think. So, do Carioca men ever go to Help, or other spots on Av. Atlantica to monger? And will Cariocas shed any tears if Help is shut down?

5. Finally, we hear a lot about how Gringo mongers are looked down upon in Brasil, and lately how Brasil needs to do more to discourage sex tourism, but do these people realize that the vast majority of men that pay for sex in Brasil are Brasilian? Or do they only care about people TRAVELING to Brasil to engage in prostitution? Or perhaps they are angry that all us gringos are finally doing what the Brasilian men could never do; making their women cum? LOL!

Sperto
11-09-05, 06:57
Mac, I think what Sperto meant to ask was actually whether forced prostitution, or the selling of women into sexual slavery and/or debt bondage, was a common pratice in Brazil.
EA
Exactly what I wanted to ask in my earlier post. The girls i saw in the brothel where all locked up in miserably cells. I never expected to see a thing like this in Brazil. Mac, do you know if this occurs a lot in Brazil?

Wandering Fool
11-09-05, 07:04
Whether or not a pro ocasionally cums really isn't at issue. I'm certain it does happen from time to time. But I'm also QUITE certain that a guy who goes down on a pro is giving her a VERY clear message: he wants her to cum. And the customer is king in this business.

Frankly, the only people who are REALLY able to tell are the women themselves, and they deny it. They know more about their experiences that we do, so I have no reason to doubt their word. It's not like it's a stigma to come with a client: hell, most pros probably want to, in fact. Anything to kill the boredom.

Most folks don't realize this, but aside from brief spurts of terror, sex work is usually incredibly fucking boring. You are being paid, essentially, to fulfill someone's fantasy. Mostly this means shut up and look nice and feign pleasure while the other person natters on about their life. This is true whether the pro and/or the client is a man or a woman. [snip...]

That part is basically the same everywhere. We see it every night in Copa, don't we?Mac, this is good info on the college scenario.

However, I think you are overly cynical on the -girls rarely getting any pleasure from this- idea. I don't disagree that there are fake orgasms and boring times for them, but I think perhaps the girls paint a darker picture to you than the reality. If they are not enjoying their work on some level, why then would a girl stay for 3 hours or all night when you only pay her for 1? Why do some girls want you to keep screwing them even when you want to stop or ask you to go down on them a second time etc? Why do some girls initiate sex the following morning when they could just as easily get dressed and leave since the "time is up"? This goes beyond the "required performance" and indicates some level of enthusuiasm beyond the call of duty. There are certainly duds and times when the chemistry isn't there, but there are suprisingly many times when its completely wild. Mongers who know, choose Brazil because more than any other place, those girls love to f--k! God bless 'em! Go with enough girls at the termas and you begin to know pretty clearly which girls are doing their duty and which girls are there to get it on.

Maybe the girls you've spoken to while doing your research paint a darker picture than the reality because they don't think its cool to admit occasionally "enjoying" their job to another local? Maybe it makes them seem less like the "unfortunate" girl trying to make a living with these horrible tourists, or maybe it makes them seem less "savvy" that they are not always getting over on the tourists but rather occasionally getting drawn in a bit?

El Austriaco
11-09-05, 21:20
mac,

first of all, let me say that i am happy to see that the prediction by a poster that creating a separate thread for you was similar to “confining you to your own room” was entirely unfounded. based on the activity in this thread, it seems like there is quite a bit of interest in the perspective and depth you can bring to this board. i certainly do appreciate it, and there are a lot of questions i have. but let me comment on the numbers issue.


there are no reliable numbers, aus, and anyone who says differently is talking out their asshole, so be careful with what you read.
fully agree with you, mac. as a matter of fact, when i looked into the issue last year, i was greatly surprised to find that the 10 million number mentioned by davida was the only one i found. as a matter of fact, i found more numbers about **** prostitution (don't have the links any more), and i came to the conclusion that the number of 10 million and, especially, the one saying 2.5 million **** prostitutes in brazil was extremely high. most sources that i found spoke more of 500,000 **** prostitutes, so again assuming that the 2,5 million mentioned by gabi was way out of line, i would say something like 2 million hookers in all of brazil sounds a lot more reasonable (dividing it by five). but again, as you said, these are somewhat educated guestimates at best. still, also considering your comparison with the numbers of domestic labor and what appleone mentioned in a subsequent post, somewhere between 1 and 2 million prostitutes in all of brazil based on an aggregate demand/pricing-based model, i think we are being much more realistic and reasonable than the 10 million mentioned.


to get a number, we'd first of all need to define the field and that's almost impossible. ok, i suppose we could get a reasonable head count in vila mimosa, all the copa clip joints and all the cities termas, but that would still leave out many of the zonas in town. and even if one could get financing to go do a complete headcount of every brothel, bar and terma in the city, that would still leave out the street traffic. and if one could somehow come up with a reasonable estimate for that, the final result would still ignore a major fact about carioca prostitution: women drift in and out of it. the girls you count at help in september, say, are not the same ones in february. sure, there's always a hard core that's there, but they make up, what, maybe 25%-50% of what you see at help? .
i think that the 25-50% estimate of the regular help pros sounds about right. in terms of fluctuation, i would say that when i got back to rio this year after spending three-and-a-half months there last summer, i knew about half the girls in copacabana (had seen them before). i am talking about help, veranda help, mp, balcony, mostly.


however, by this time next year, i think i'll have a reasonable estimate of the number of women who are involved in the sexual tourism scene in copa. i've paged through some 4 years of posts here and on other sites and have a list of bars, termas and brothels gringos report frequenting, who made the report, when, and what they said. minimally, boiling this data down should give a map of english-speaking gringos and prostitution in rio. just looking over the raw data now, i can say that 90 percent of the gringos who come here visit the same 20 or so places. it should be possible to do head counts there and street counts around said places. it still won't resolve the revolving door problem, but it will at least give a number as to the size of the population gringos are dealing with.

this number, btw, fluctuates drastically over the year, peaking near carnaval and hitting bottom in may and september.
sounds about right to me.


here's the reasoning behind my off-the-cuff number's crunching. (…). as you can see, this is a lot of off-the-cuff estimating, but at least i'm honest about it. :-)
first, i greatly appreciate your honesty, which is something i have been sorely lacking in most media reports about prostitution and sex tourism. the reason i became interested in this topic in the first place was that i was witnessing an increasing number of reports a la “sex tourism increases manifold”, “**** prostitution is skyrocketing” and stuff like that. so i asked myself… ok, where are the numbers? what is the magnitude of this issue? and when i found any numbers at all, they were usually covering a range of 1 to 10, meaning that, say, when one source quoted 50,000 prostitutes in one given location, another reported 500,000. so i quickly got the impression that with such a wide range of numbers, basically predicting that this specific activity was on the rise or decrease was pretty much useless and that all the trends mentioned were nothing more than hot air. i also noticed that the whole issue of sex tourism was greatly overblown while the issue of local prostitution was generally overlooked entirely in the media and actually created the impression that before tourists started hitting, say, fortaleza, for example, there was no prostitution there at all… and of course, we know that this simply isn’t true.

but anyhow. your preliminary numbers above make perfect sense to me. based on my own off-the-cuff estimates, i would say that there are about one thousand gdps maximum working the joints most frequently visited by foreigners, simply because girls do move a lot from one place to another during the day and night. i have seen barbarella girls in mp, frank’s girls at balcony, and most girls that hang out at mp until 10 go to veranda help afterwards, and possibly back to balcony once veranda help shuts down at 3. girls walk from mp to balcony and back might get picked up by someone on the way there. and of course, almost everyone goes to help. my numbers are based on the low season, though (only been to rio june to september on multiple occasions).

ea

Carlos Primeros
11-09-05, 22:52
El Austriaco,

I think that the consensus is that approx. 10.000 GDPs work in Rio, approx. 20.000 in Sao Paolo. These two places are the most frequented places in Brasil.

These two places repesent approx. 10 % of the Brasilian population with a concentration o GDPs. If you guestimate that 30.000 GDPs in these two places are approx. 10 % of the working girls, you reach a total of 300.000 hard-core GDPs in Brasil. Then double the figure for the girls which work "part-time" and you reach the figure of 600.000 GDPs for the entire Brasil with a population of around 150.000.000 - 180.000.000. That is 0,4 - 0,3 % of the population or 4 - 3 in a thousand. You have this figure also in other countries. Maybe even more (Thailand???, Keniya etc???)
The reason for Brasil being so popular is simply that the girls are so beautifull. ( I hope nobody disputes this) Otherwise, I think that Brasil is simply a normal country with an everage population.

I personally love Brazil not only because of the mongering prospects, but also of the quality of life and the friendly people.

These are my dois centavos por hoje.

Cumprimentos

Carlos Primeros

Appleone
11-09-05, 23:29
mac, i'd also be interested in your perspective on ezinho's questions re brasilian mongers. from my experience reading the brasilian monger boards like gpbr.net and gpguia.net, they don't seem to be focused on whether the gdp is enjoying the experience, but rather how well and affectionately she is performing -- in other words, her behaviors rather than her feelings. sort of like reviewing a therapeutic masseuse in the usa: we focus on how well she did the massage, not whether she enjoyed it. the boards do show a lot of affection for the top performers, though, and many of the top performers participate in discussions about their performance.

the businessmen at my clients in sao paulo do not seem like the types who would ever marry a former gdp -- they are too status conscious. perhaps rio is different. though, like ezinho, the only upper middle class white collar guys i've ever seen in copa or arpoador have been paulistas, not cariocas. when i was with a group of more affluent cariocas at mistura fina one night, a member of the band suggested after the performance that they join him for a drink in copa -- they all acted repelled by the thought, and i think it was copa, not him, that repelled them.

lastly, on the ucsd debate, most contributors have been right about the ranking: it depends which of the six different categories of us news and world reports college categories you use. if you use the overall "best national university for bachelor's degree" rankings, then mac is correct with his #32 slot (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php). take the "best national public universities" and ucsd is #7, comfortably in the top ten (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/natudoc_pub_brief.php). look at "comprehensive colleges" and ucsd isn't on the list, as that category excludes national universities. bottom line: they are a pretty good school, although behind uc berkeley and ucla in the university of california system.

Macunaima
11-11-05, 14:18
Reply to Comgo:

"First, I quote your whole post as a point of reference, and it's not really important enough for me to cut and paste every little bit that I directly address."

Quoting the whole thing is the same thing as quoting none of it, so why not be considerate and save us all the spam?

"Second, mapping of the human genome is an international project and it's finished so I'm not sure what you mean by Brazil is second behind the U.S."

Comgo, surely you know that there were/are different teams within the project? It's not like they were all hanging out in the same laboratory...

As for "that diversity thing", it seems to me that you are confusing two entirely seperate issues: affirmative action and recruitment of foreign specialists. The first is linked to diversity. The second is linked to competence and excellence. Affirmative Action laws require universities to hire American citizens who are in certain categories (black, women, latino). They do not apply to foreign nationals. There is no law which requires universities to recruit Pakistani, Brazilian, or Saudi researchers - in fact, there are several laws which make this a more difficult thing to do. American universities do not do this because it's "hip": they do it because these men and women are often the best in their fields.

I'm suprised you don't know this.

Now, regarding the topic of this board, prostitution...

I can see three reasons why I, myself, would conceivably want to pay for sex. Your mileage may vary, but my reasons (which are appliable to myself alone) would be these:

1) Variety. Fuck with as many different kinds of women as possible. Linked to this would be "expertise": have sex with pros who are willing to do what other women might not be willing to do.
2) Burnt out on relationships. Basically, paying her to leave the next day.
3) Having some physical or social impediment that doesn't allow me to get sex from as many women or the type of women as I would like.

I haven't yet paid for sex because none of these three have ever applied to me. I've always been able to find enough varied and competent partners to satisfy #1 and 3 (note that this isn't because I'm some sort of three-balled man, either. I'm perfectly happy, when I'm single, with having sex a few times a month, which obviously isn't the case of many of the men here, so this fits into the equation, too). Regarding #2, the fact of the matter is that I LIKE having relationships with the women with whom I'm sexually intimate. At the very least, I enjoy being their friend. I've not found that it's hard to have friendships and sex, though a lot of guys here complain about that sort of thing. Perhaps it's because I just hang around with a different crowd than most of the guys here. Perhaps it's because I'm not afraid of the "R" word: I'm willing to let a relationship develop and see where it goes and if I don't like where it's going, I'm willing to put the breaks on it, fast. Whatever the case, my sex life has been good enough that spending money on it - especially the quantitities many guys here seem to go through - just seems to be a big waste. Hell, even after my divorce, when I didn't want a relationship of any kind, I was able to find plenty of sex partners, for free, who ALSO didn't want a realtionship of any kind.

Now, I'll say this once again, because these words have been misconstrued in the past (not in the least by you): none of this make me a "better person" than a monger. I'm not saying this to "mock" anyone: it's just the simple truth. It applies to my life, not yours, and no one should expect you to live your life according to my rythyms.

But if you complain that people don't respect your choice to monger (and I do), why is it so hard for you to respect my choice to NOT monger?

Now, as for me "taunting and mocking" other board members, there's only a couple I've ever exchanged words with and that's been AFTER repeated insults which they've leveled at me. I'd like you to show me where you think I've been "taunting and mocking", because that is not at all my intent here. It seems to me that you're saying this because that's what you think I must be doing, but where, exactly have I done this?

You say "I know plenty of people haven't been with a pro, but those people are not ex-erotic dancers who study prostitution for a living". So I take it that you know many people who've been erotic dancers and who study prostitution, then? I'm just wondering where you get your base for comparison, here. Or perhaps you're assuming things? Most people I used to work with in the sex trade NEVER paid for sex, Comgo. The pros I talk to now also don't pay for sex. It's kind of considered to be a matter of professional pride, so I'm not quite sure why you think being a worker in the sex trade should "naturally" mean having paid for sex. :lol:

While P4P was indeed happening in Brazil back in 1984, it WASN'T happening in the interior of the mostly rural state where I was living at the time - or rather, it was happening, but not in a way that appealed to me (paying 5 dollars to malnourished daughters of bioa-frias to suck my dick is not what I consider to be a neato thing). And it wasn't happening in a way that a 16 year old - especially a gringo 16 year old - could just pop in out of the blue, even if he wanted to. While people can and will indeed confirm that Copacabana has been a happening scene since the late 1950s, I think you need to remember that Brazil is hardly Copacabana.

"Sixth, I don't look at it as accusing, but trying to call you on a few things that don't sit right with me about what you say."

Gee, that's interesting, Comgo. Because when I do the same, you accuse me of "mocking and taunting". I mean, immediately after this, you say...

"Saying what I said is crap is an off-hand way of attacking me also just as you're saying that I'm making attacks in an off-hand way."

Now, I've never said anything anyone's said is "crap"., and if you think I have, I'd like you to show me where that's been the case. Like you, I've pointed out "a few things that don't sit right with me". Apparently, in your mind, this is OK when you do it, and "mocking and taunting" whenever anyone else does it. How else can you explain the idea that anyone who disagrees with you is "attacking" you, while you feel completely justified in saying whatever you like about another person, as long as their words "don't sit right" with you?

Seems what we have here, Comgo, is a clear-cut case of two different weights and two different measures...

Macunaima
11-11-05, 14:58
Ezinho asks about gringo mongers vs. Brazilian mongers, which is a really good topic for discussion.

1) I think most of them would laugh at the idea. However, I've heard plenty of stories over the years from Brazilian johns who say things like this, so I think this kind of thing does happen to them as well. The difference of the matter is that when it happens, the explanation is that THIS woman, in particular, is different from "all the rest". The common expectation is that pros don't cum. Many gringos, on the other hand, seem to think that Brazilian women are a special branch of feminine humanity, so when a gringo falls into something like this, especially if he's had little life-experience here, he's more likely to believe that his experience represents "Brazilian women" or "Brazilian prostitutes" as a whole, and not one individual exception to the rule. Again, I'm talking in generalizations here...

2) It isn't very common at all, which is why the pros, on the whole, consider gringos to be much better marks for this thing. The REASON why it's more common with gringos, in my view, has to do with the fantasies many of them are projecting on Brazil as a whole, which makes it easier for them to suspend disbelief in an illusion. Typically, the middle-class white collar professionals who go to termas have no illusions at all about "Brazilian women" or about prostitution in this country. The woman in question is much more "readable" to them. Simply opening her mouth and talking is going to give the guy a good idea about where she came from, what her class level is, and etc. All this tends to put a quash on romance. It's like this: an American hears a certain kind of harsh, Jersey accent, being spoken by a woman who makes really obvious language errors, it's going to tell him something about that girl and, unless he's unusual, it's going to make it harder for romance to bloom. Romance is, after all, largely based on mystery and ignorance. How many times have you seen foreign guys in the States dating what's obviously a chick fresh out of the trailer park, but they are completely oblivious to this, because they don't pick up on any of the signs? They're just happy to be dating the blond American of their dreams. Now, of course, there are exceptions to this rule, and there have been plenty of Brazilian guys who've fallen in love with termas chicks over the years. In general, however, they aren't envied, but pitied. Their stories get told in the same tone of voice that you'd talk about your daft uncle Charley who blew his fortune running off with that stripper. There are also Brazilian guys who try to do the "mack daddy" routine: you know, playing sugar daddy to a series of pros. That seems to be endemic to the sex trade wherever one goes. But these guys typically don't marry the women they're paying.

3) Copa in general is stigmatized as being expensive and overrun by tourists. In almost anything, whether it be food, booze, sex, music or what have you, you can get a much better deal off Copa than on Copa. But I think the main reason for what you're seeing is that Downtown is the business district and the termas there are convenient to the lawyers, doctors and admen which work there. Plus, it's less likely they are going to be spotted by someone who knows their wife or girlfriend when they enter into a Centro termas rather than a Copa one.

4) In a word, "yech". Few cariocas will shed any tears if it gets torn down. Periodically, Help gets pointed out as a fun place to spend the end of an evening laughing, pointing and people-watching. But in that sense, it's treated sort of like a zoo. A "normal" caricoa woman would not be caught dead in Help without male accompaniment. Where women don't go, guys won't go. And Brazilian mongers, as I said before, can get better deals elsewhere. You thus don't see to many cariocas in there unless they are escorting a tourist.

5) I think, as we say here, "o buraco fique mais embaixo". I engage in debates with a wide variety of Brazilians on this topic, so I have a pretty good idea of what's passing through people's heads. The least thing passing through is "jealousy". No one gets jealous over anyone's access to "public women". What would be the point? Pros are not seen by Brazilian men as being "our women". In fact, historically speaking, one of the biggest arguments in FAVOR of legalized prostitution in places like Copa is that it keeps "those gringo scumbags away from our women".

The major movers and shakers in the witch hunt are, in fact, women and they hate you guys simply because you are too good a target to pass up. In fact, they hate you, professionally, precisely BECAUSE they know that prostitution is mainly a Brazilian thing. The hope of these people is that they can use xenophobia to restrict prostituion generally. They know that if they were to talk about prostituion in and of itself, few Brazilians would get worked up. Especially few male Brazilians. But, ah hah! Sexual tourism and trafficking of women!!!! Those are evil crimes which every true-blooded Brazilian is willing to fight because they represent the evils of Yankee imperialism.

So you guys are being used as a scape-goat and sexual tourism is being used as a trojan horse to attack the sex industry, in general. These people understand VERY WELL that you are the least of Brazil's problems when it comes to "the oppression of women". But you are a wonderful target for mobilizing public sentiment in the direction they want to take it.

Look at Rosinha's current anti-postcard campaign, for example. You've heard about it?

Macunaima
11-11-05, 15:00
Sperto, there is a significant ammount of sexual slavery going on in Brazil. Very little of it, if any, is happening in Copacabana.

Macunaima
11-11-05, 15:21
WF sez:
"However, I think you are overly cynical on the girls rarely getting any pleasure from this- idea. I don't disagree that there are fake orgasms and boring times for them, but I think perhaps the girls paint a darker picture to you than the reality."

Perhaps, WF. But an objective person would say that mongers paint a brighter picture to me than the reality. Given monger's opinions on this topic and the girls', I'm inclined to go with the girls because, after all, they are the ones who are experiencing orgasm or not.

Let's put it this way: both sides are biased, but only one side has access to the reality of the question. And, to tell the truth, it's mongers who are buying fantasies and opros who are selling them. Given that, it seems to me to be the hieght of foolishness to presume that a guy who is paying for a fantasy can be an objective witness to this sort of thing. Hell, most guys can't even tell when a woman cums when they are trying very hard and sincerely to please the woman in question. So I simply don't think it's a rational argument to believe that they can tell when they are paying for the fantasy of doing whatever they please.

And let's presume, as you do, that pros tend to paint their world darker than it is. OK. But why lie about this part and why lie so constitently? It doesn't seem to be taboo to cum with a client, so why would almosy all pros choose this particular thing to say, when they give a variety of opinions otherwise?

Finally, notice something here: while EVERY pro I've ever interviewed claims she doesn't cum with clients (though a few have mentioned that there have been exceptions to this rule, very occasionally), it seems to me that the majority of mongers ALSO don't believe that pros cum with clients.

So it seems to me to be the height of rationality to believe this is the general rule, though there may be exceptions. The guys who are saying opposite are generally the guys who are very into the idea of giving a woman pleasure and this is the fantasy they pay for. I mean, as I said above, what kind of message does a guy think he's giving a good pro when he goes down on her, as several of the group which claims they routinely give pros orgasms say they do...?

Now, you ask: "they are not enjoying their work on some level, why then would a girl stay for 3 hours or all night when you only pay her for 1? Why do some girls want you to keep screwing them even when you want to stop or ask you to go down on them a second time etc?"

The short answer is because it's good business, especially if it's a slow night. By giving more than you ask for, the woman has a much greater chance of getting one of three things: 1) a repeat visit, 2) extra tips or gifts (such as a nice breakfast, paid for by the client the next morning) or even 3) a boyfriend/sugar daddy.

#2 is most likely. Mostly this happens after midnight, when the chance of the woman getting another trick is very, very low. If she leaves her current customer satisfied, she can sleep in with him and maybe cage a nice breakfast, at the very least. Hotel breakfasts typically run around 20 reais. It's a not-inconsiderable tip on a 150-300 real trick.

But #1 is also a biggie. I mean, look at how many reports get passed arounf here about how "you should look for Fulana at Termas So-and-so because she gives really good service" or "Watch out for Beltrana at Help! She's a rip-off". The women know you guys communicate among yourself and it pays to advertise.

Given all that, if you've got the energy, giving good service is always a plus. Why is this logic different from the logic of any other good worker in any other trade you can name?

Now, you say that the women here are very professional, and I agree. That kind of enthusiasm IS the mark of a first rate professional who knows what she's about. It's the kind of "professionality" you - or any client - recognizes in any other service industry. Why do we have it in Rio? Two reasons...

1) A looooooong history of professional prostitution in this town where it's easy to get an apprenticeship with an older, more veteran woman.

2) More control of the market in the hands of women than in the hands of pimps. You NATURALLY do a better job when you're working for yourself. You go that extra mile and do better work. You tend to say "time's up, I'm outta here" when it makes no fucking difference at all because you are getting paid to simply show up and you will be paid the same ammount, tommorrow, to show up.

Compare Copa girl's attitudes with those of the girls working VM and you'll see this in action. A VM pro will NEVER want to fuck you for longer than you pay for because she's being paid for low cost piece work. As soon as you are out of there, she's going to have another client in no time at all. Sure, if she's good, she'll be pleasant, because she'll want you to some back. But at 20 reais a pop, it's just as easy for her to hustle another client as it is for her to hustle you, so she's not going to say "Oh, stay here just another hour with me honey, it's on the house."

Time is money in VM. It is NOT in Copa. In Copa, money is your ability to give the client exactly what he wants and, 9 times out of 10, that's something a bit more than 15 minutes of "eham, bam, thank you ma'am" sex.

If it were a "Brazilian thing" or even a "female thing", you'd see the same behavior in VM and in Copa. You don't see it, however, because it's an economics thing. In the one market, time is money and in the other, service is money.

Prostitution on Copa is a very competitive, professional, cut-throat business and the women who suceed are precisely the ones who are willing and able to do what you are looking for and - better yet - be able to suss this out without your telling them specifically.

It's professionalism which makes that sort of thing common on Copa, WF, not naivete or the woman's need for sex.

Macunaima
11-11-05, 15:46
Carlos, regarding numbers of pros, consensus doesn't make for reasonable stats. People can agree about really stupid things. The fact of the matter is number we come up with is just a guess and a consensus guess is no better than a disputed guess.

I'd say my 1,000 - 5,000 estimate of the flow of pros through the gringo market is pretty good, for the reasons I mention below. I think El Aus is right that it tends to fall more towards the lower side of that than the higher, most of the time, but then agian, he's never been here in Carnaval and those of you guys who have can back me up on this: the Copa scene BOOMS from December to February. It's almost unrecognizable to the people who are used to seeing it on the off-season.

And if my numbers are correct, that 10,000 for Rio seems to me to be just too low. There are almost as many women in Vila Mimosa and the Quinta, put together, than in Copa in the off-season, I'd say, and those are just two of the dozens of "Brazilian" zonas in this city.

Also, both SP and Rio are well-known as prostitution migration destinations, so we can't estimate, based on the numbers in these cities, how many pros we have globally. It's like counting actors in New York and L.A. and saying "OK, there are so many here and these two cities are x% of the U.S. population so..." As L.A. and NYC are meccas for actors, SP and Rio are meccas for pros. Girls come here to make it big so, logically, our populations here should be well above the national average.

I think you're probably right, though: the numbers over all are probably less than 1% rather than more.

Zorglub
11-11-05, 17:48
Good posts Macu!

As always very informatives.

Comgo
11-12-05, 20:36
Reply to Comgo:

"First, I quote your whole post as a point of reference, and it's not really important enough for me to cut and paste every little bit that I directly address."

Quoting the whole thing is the same thing as quoting none of it, so why not be considerate and save us all the spam?

"Second, mapping of the human genome is an international project and it's finished so I'm not sure what you mean by Brazil is second behind the U.S."

Comgo, surely you know that there were/are different teams within the project? It's not like they were all hanging out in the same laboratory...

As for "that diversity thing", it seems to me that you are confusing two entirely seperate issues: affirmative action and recruitment of foreign specialists. The first is linked to diversity. The second is linked to competence and excellence. Affirmative Action laws require universities to hire American citizens who are in certain categories (black, women, latino). They do not apply to foreign nationals. There is no law which requires universities to recruit Pakistani, Brazilian, or Saudi researchers - in fact, there are several laws which make this a more difficult thing to do. American universities do not do this because it's "hip": they do it because these men and women are often the best in their fields.

I'm suprised you don't know this.

Now, regarding the topic of this board, prostitution...

I can see three reasons why I, myself, would conceivably want to pay for sex. Your mileage may vary, but my reasons (which are appliable to myself alone) would be these:

1) Variety. Fuck with as many different kinds of women as possible. Linked to this would be "expertise": have sex with pros who are willing to do what other women might not be willing to do.
2) Burnt out on relationships. Basically, paying her to leave the next day.
3) Having some physical or social impediment that doesn't allow me to get sex from as many women or the type of women as I would like.

I haven't yet paid for sex because none of these three have ever applied to me. I've always been able to find enough varied and competent partners to satisfy #1 and 3 (note that this isn't because I'm some sort of three-balled man, either. I'm perfectly happy, when I'm single, with having sex a few times a month, which obviously isn't the case of many of the men here, so this fits into the equation, too). Regarding #2, the fact of the matter is that I LIKE having relationships with the women with whom I'm sexually intimate. At the very least, I enjoy being their friend. I've not found that it's hard to have friendships and sex, though a lot of guys here complain about that sort of thing. Perhaps it's because I just hang around with a different crowd than most of the guys here. Perhaps it's because I'm not afraid of the "R" word: I'm willing to let a relationship develop and see where it goes and if I don't like where it's going, I'm willing to put the breaks on it, fast. Whatever the case, my sex life has been good enough that spending money on it - especially the quantitities many guys here seem to go through - just seems to be a big waste. Hell, even after my divorce, when I didn't want a relationship of any kind, I was able to find plenty of sex partners, for free, who ALSO didn't want a realtionship of any kind.

Now, I'll say this once again, because these words have been misconstrued in the past (not in the least by you): none of this make me a "better person" than a monger. I'm not saying this to "mock" anyone: it's just the simple truth. It applies to my life, not yours, and no one should expect you to live your life according to my rythyms.

But if you complain that people don't respect your choice to monger (and I do), why is it so hard for you to respect my choice to NOT monger?

Now, as for me "taunting and mocking" other board members, there's only a couple I've ever exchanged words with and that's been AFTER repeated insults which they've leveled at me. I'd like you to show me where you think I've been "taunting and mocking", because that is not at all my intent here. It seems to me that you're saying this because that's what you think I must be doing, but where, exactly have I done this?

You say "I know plenty of people haven't been with a pro, but those people are not ex-erotic dancers who study prostitution for a living". So I take it that you know many people who've been erotic dancers and who study prostitution, then? I'm just wondering where you get your base for comparison, here. Or perhaps you're assuming things? Most people I used to work with in the sex trade NEVER paid for sex, Comgo. The pros I talk to now also don't pay for sex. It's kind of considered to be a matter of professional pride, so I'm not quite sure why you think being a worker in the sex trade should "naturally" mean having paid for sex. :lol:

While P4P was indeed happening in Brazil back in 1984, it WASN'T happening in the interior of the mostly rural state where I was living at the time - or rather, it was happening, but not in a way that appealed to me (paying 5 dollars to malnourished daughters of bioa-frias to suck my dick is not what I consider to be a neato thing). And it wasn't happening in a way that a 16 year old - especially a gringo 16 year old - could just pop in out of the blue, even if he wanted to. While people can and will indeed confirm that Copacabana has been a happening scene since the late 1950s, I think you need to remember that Brazil is hardly Copacabana.

"Sixth, I don't look at it as accusing, but trying to call you on a few things that don't sit right with me about what you say."

Gee, that's interesting, Comgo. Because when I do the same, you accuse me of "mocking and taunting". I mean, immediately after this, you say...

"Saying what I said is crap is an off-hand way of attacking me also just as you're saying that I'm making attacks in an off-hand way."

Now, I've never said anything anyone's said is "crap"., and if you think I have, I'd like you to show me where that's been the case. Like you, I've pointed out "a few things that don't sit right with me". Apparently, in your mind, this is OK when you do it, and "mocking and taunting" whenever anyone else does it. How else can you explain the idea that anyone who disagrees with you is "attacking" you, while you feel completely justified in saying whatever you like about another person, as long as their words "don't sit right" with you?

Seems what we have here, Comgo, is a clear-cut case of two different weights and two different measures...

So much nonsense in one post, it's hard for me to address it all, but I'll try. Go learn the meaning of spam, you obviously don't know what it means. I'm still not sure what you think you mean by Brazil is second to the U.S. as far as mapping the human genome; you're wrong. Universities do hire professors, researchers, and lecturers from abroad for diversity so you're wrong again. Either you have a weak sex drive or tell me how you get 4+ different non-pro's in a day, day after day. Nobody thinks that you're better than them, the reason why I find it hard to believe that you don't monger is because you're an ex-erotic dancer that studies prostitution and lives in/moved to a country that is full of prostitution. You would think someone as obviously obsessed with prostitution such as yourself has partaken in it at least some. It's not a matter of me respecting your decision not to monger, but I don't believe you unless you're lying about other things regarding yourself such as you're castrated or a priest(then I would think you molest boys). You say that most sex workers you know never have paid for sex, well, newsflash most sex workers are women, and women can get sex for free from 10 guys per day much more easily than a man could do the opposite. You did mock Exec Talent and other board members by saying things sarcastically like they're superior gringo's that all the ladies need to be their sugar daddies. If you really want to deny that you mocked anyone, I'll pull up your posts. First, you state that you were 17 in 1984 when you came to Brazil and now you state 16, keep your lies straight. Why would a 16-17 year old move to Brazil anyway and how did this legally happen (meaning visa-wise)? Did you move with your family? Why did your gringo family move to Brazil in 1984 to some crappy interior rural state that you claim? The more you talk, the more full of it you seem. You need to stop taking introduction to anthropology courses and start taking a reading comprehension course because you most definitely wrote that what I wrote was crap in your post that I quoted. Go re-read it again. Your assertion that I'm using two different weights and measures is like the rest of your post: nonsense.

Bimbo Boy
11-12-05, 21:50
Macunaima, What do GDP do after being on the program? Do they marry? Do they live on their own? Do they have children? Can they hide their past life? What is the typical lifecourse of a Garota de Programa?

Regards.

BB

Macunaima
11-12-05, 23:33
Whatever, Comgo.

Why should I bother wasting my time arguing with a man whose only refrain is that everything I say is a bald-faced lie, and yet who feels that anyone who disagrees with him is "mocking and taunting" him? Quero dizer, que que Maria leva? LOL

You're obviously having a great time bullshitting and don't need my help, so I'll leave you to play with yourself. Whenever you're ready to treat others with the respect you demand, I'll be ready to talk. Until then, why don't you go have fun somewhere else?

Macunaima
11-12-05, 23:37
Hard to say if there's "typical", BB.

As much as I can say anything, though, typically, being a GdP isn't a lifetime career. Many women drop into it and out of it again. Others go for a few years, then stop.

The older you get, the cheaper the market gets, unless you're very gifted in giving people fantasies. So around about 30, even the most successful start looking at getting out.

The best manage to make enough money to buy a house or apartment. More marry out, either to gringos or Brazilians. Some of these end up coming back, however, with or without their husband's knowledge.

Many GdP's have kids - probably about as many as "normal" women.

It's easier to "start over" with a gringo than a Brazilian. But many women, maybe even most, don't even try to hide their past. They're not ashamed of it and won't be marrying anyone who is.

Comgo
11-13-05, 04:30
Whatever, Comgo.

Why should I bother wasting my time arguing with a man whose only refrain is that everything I say is a bald-faced lie, and yet who feels that anyone who disagrees with him is "mocking and taunting" him? Quero dizer, que que Maria leva? LOL

You're obviously having a great time bullshitting and don't need my help, so I'll leave you to play with yourself. Whenever you're ready to treat others with the respect you demand, I'll be ready to talk. Until then, why don't you go have fun somewhere else?

Wow, your English reading comprehension is getting worse by the minute. I didn't say you were mocking and taunting me. I'll take your response as an admission of guilt. I'll leave you to pretending to be who you like on this thread.

Sperto
11-13-05, 09:25
Mac, I have two questions for you.

Do you have any statistics on which are the main reasons for brazilian women starting to work as pro's? Unemployment, single mothers, easy money or a need to support a more expensive lifestyle?

To me it seems like the majority of the pro's are single mothers. This seems to be specially true in VM. I guess in Rio it might be tempting for some girls in the favelas to earn a months salary in one night in Copa.

Second question. What are the percentage of pro's addicted to drugs, or using it regularily?

Wandering Fool
11-13-05, 12:07
WF sez:

Now, you say that the women here are very professional, and I agree. That kind of enthusiasm IS the mark of a first rate professional who knows what she's about. It's the kind of "professionality" you - or any client - recognizes in any other service industry. Why do we have it in Rio? Two reasons...

1) A looooooong history of professional prostitution in this town where it's easy to get an apprenticeship with an older, more veteran woman.

2) More control of the market in the hands of women than in the hands of pimps. You NATURALLY do a better job when you're working for yourself. You go that extra mile and do better work. You tend to say "time's up, I'm outta here" when it makes no fucking difference at all because you are getting paid to simply show up and you will be paid the same ammount, tommorrow, to show up.

Prostitution on Copa is a very competitive, professional, cut-throat business and the women who suceed are precisely the ones who are willing and able to do what you are looking for and - better yet - be able to suss this out without your telling them specifically.

It's professionalism which makes that sort of thing common on Copa, WF, not naivete or the woman's need for sex.To clarify, I didn't say the women were very professional, my assertion is that they often go beyond mere professionalism. You're response has good points, many of which I will not refute because I agree.

However, if you look at another job in the service industry, being a waitress (of which I have known many, and even worked in restaraunts for summer jobs as a younger man), and examine the girls who are the most successful at this, I would assert that these are the ones who have a true enthusuasm for their job. They have the ability to find enjoyment in their job and that enthusuiasm comes through to the customers. It make them happy to make others happy, to please them, to give them a good experience. Yes, they force on a smile at moments that they are feeling tired, or when they encounter a difficult customer because they have learned this will get them tips, but their general approach is not that it is all just a complete act and deep down they hate what they do and have no concern for their customer. In reality, what makes them good is a true desire to please people. It is common knowledge that the best sales people are the ones who really believe in what they are selling -there's a certain level of enthusiasm that can't be faked.

What I am really refuting here is the notion that the Brazilian girls are simply better at the "lie" than anyhwere else in the world. What was the James Bond movie where the villian says to 007, "the best lies are also the truth?" I think there is a general enthusiasm for sex amongst this culture including the pros. Ok, they may not cum, but more importantly, do they ENJOY it? If a girl is showing physiological signs during sex of heightened arrousal (I hate sounding this scientific about something I do purely for enjoyment, but here goes) of increased heart rate and breathing, sweating etc isn't the "scientific proof" that she is "into it?"

Maybe you need to interview these girls and then get them to wear various monitoring devices when they go out on calls to really find the truth. Maybe a governmet funded study where the monger would only pay 1/2 price for the girl as long as he agrees to let her wear a "wire?" Ok, I joke, but somewhere in here is a real point. I'm not exactly a wide eyed novice at this and I'm trying to convice you that there may be another side to what the girls are telling you. It might be neat and easy (and politically correct) to draw the conclusion that these hardened pros are putting on an act for naive gringo's but I promise you that isn't the whole story.

Macunaima
11-13-05, 14:14
Sperto, again, stats in this sort of thing are mostly made up, so...

What I've found is the following: every woman I've interviewed so far left another job to become a pro because, once she got over the stigma, the economics were just too much in favor of it. Most of the women worked as low-rate tour guides, beauticians, supermarket check-out girls, hotel staff and etc. and these jobs typically pay less than 500 reais a month: what an enterprising girl can make in one night turning tricks.

So why did they start? Usually it's a combination of three things: the above economics, easy access to Copacabana (generally they were working a regular job there, first) and a friend who introduced them around and showed them the ropes. Most women that I've talked to start out saying to themselves "OK, I'll just do this once in awhile, you know to reinforce my income". But once the taboo of turning tricks was broken, it just became more logical, economically speaking, to go on doing it.

The fact of the matter is that hooking on Copa is a VERY well paid job by Brazilian standards. Especially for the girls who are doing it who, typically, really don't have much else to look forward to, economically speaking, beyond near-minimum wage jobs and/or marriage to a guy who make slightly more than they do.

Many of the pros are single mothers. Then again, many urban Brazilian women of all classes are single mothers. I'd say a good third of my female colleagues at UFRJ above the age of 25 are single mothers, too. Of course, having a kid just increases economic pressure and that is one thing that makes hooking more attractive. But in and of itself, it's not such a big deal and rarely a determinitive factor. In VM it probably is more so than in Copa, because the kind of women who wroks VM needs cash turnover regularly, even if it's small ammounts, and that suits a working mother's needs more. To make Copa pay off, you need to be able to go through dry spells and to make it REALLY pay off, you need to work the "rent a girlfriend" racket, which only works when you're a mom if you have someone to look after your kid for you.

But you're wrong to think that hooking is a favela thing: it's a working class and lower middle class thing, which means that most of the women in it don't come from the favela, but from places in the suburbs.

As for drugs, coke is the big one here in town. Crack and heroin are hardly heard of, though crack is finally making some in-roads. And the biggest one of all is, of course, booze. I'd say 90 percent of the pros abuse drugs on occasion if we include booze. Coke is also widely used, but it's hard to say by how many, because it's a clandestine thing: people don't snort it openly, not even in the women's bathroom. But there have been several drug-related murders of pros over the years. In 2003, someone shuck a bunch of ground glass into this one woman's coke at the Balconey Bar and she had a luing hemmorage and died.

Most pros seem to be pretty sober when they're working, however, if only for safety reasons. I'd say if coke gets used alot, it's probably more to keep the woman up and working - especially at times like Carnaval - than as a recreational drug.

Zorglub
11-13-05, 17:38
Macu,

I noticed in my few trips to Rio that most of the GDP I met in copa were not from Rio but for all parts of Brasil.(I have the habit of always asking them where they are coming from).

Is there a feeling for those girls (before they arrive in Rio) that this city is the place to make quick money ?

And where are the Rio GDP as I rarely met one in copa which is from this city.

If you could enlighten me on this.

Liucio
11-13-05, 21:02
Macunaima

Is there much difference in accepting money for sex or paying money for sex?

Are the payers any different from the women that accept the money?

The JOHN'S are sometimes more educated and sometimes have a higher standard of living so lets flip the script.

Lets geta an FBI profile of a typical JOHN that travel across the globe in search of sex.

Lets ask the question that the women at HELP would ask.

What makes these JOHN's tick.
Are they unsuccessful in their own country?
Why do they pay?
What is their morality base if they have one?
Why do they pay?

Start asking questions of yourselves and not these women.
Start here ad I gaurantee you will arrive at all the answers you ask of these women.

Macunaima, I think this would b a much better starting point.
Profile the JOHN's, whats their life like?

Macunaima
11-15-05, 01:44
Liucio, there's plenty of differences between those who buy sex and those who sell it. I don't even know where to start to begin to enumerate the differences. Let's just start off with the fact that in the group I'm studying, almost all of those paying for sex are gringos and those selling it Brazilians...

The questions you ask about johns are almost all too subjective and thus impossible to answer. Define "successful", for example. Define "morality base". what are you really asking here?

As for why they pay, there are plenty of reasons. The most popular seem to be...

1) Not having to deal with the women in the morning
2) Having a large variety of sex partners
3) KNOWING youre going to get laid instead of just "maybe"
4) Having just been through a bad divorce or relationship and not wanting todeal with "love" - or even "like" - but still wanting sex.

There are plenty more.

One thing I can say for sure, though: most of these guys could easily land a "normal" woman if they tried. The fact that they are mongering tends to point out that they are not doing it because they HAVE to but because they WANT to.

I've actually got a pretty good john model set up, but it doesn't point to one type of guys, but many, many different types.


Zorglub, there are two possible answers to your question. First, yes, Rio is a GdP mecca where girls from other cities come to make it rich, so that's one part of what you see. This increases in the busy season, so if you're coming here from December to March, you'll find plenty of out-of-town girls.

Second possible answer: you're misunderstanding some girls when they say where they come from. Rio is like Los Angeles: it's a collection of cities in a metro area. Many, if not most, of the girls come from outlying, poorer, satelite towns which are still part of Rio, socially speaking, but not formally speaking. Unless you know local surrounding geography well, this might throw you off. You ask a girl if she's from Rio and she says, "No, I'm from Campos". You may think it's another city, but it's like asking as girl if she's from L.A. and she says "No, I'm from Oxnard" or Santa Monica.

There are a lot of carioca girls in Copa, but few of them come from Rio proper.

Full Throttle
11-15-05, 15:06
Mac,

I wonder, if you are done researching, why are you here?

If you are not done researching, show me one place where you accepted anyone's input as informative rather than an opportunity to espouse your viewpoint.

Again, I enjoy your presence, but I'm just puzzled by it.

FT

John05
11-15-05, 15:46
Liucio, there's plenty of differences between those who buy sex and those who sell it. I don't even know where to start to begin to enumerate the differences. Let's just start off with the fact that in the group I'm studying, almost all of those paying for sex are gringos and those selling it Brazilians...

The questions you ask about johns are almost all too subjective and thus impossible to answer. Define "successful", for example. Define "morality base". what are you really asking here?

As for why they pay, there are plenty of reasons. The most popular seem to be...

1) Not having to deal with the women in the morning
2) Having a large variety of sex partners
3) KNOWING youre going to get laid instead of just "maybe"
4) Having just been through a bad divorce or relationship and not wanting todeal with "love" - or even "like" - but still wanting sex.

There are plenty more.

One thing I can say for sure, though: most of these guys could easily land a "normal" woman if they tried. The fact that they are mongering tends to point out that they are not doing it because they HAVE to but because they WANT to.

I've actually got a pretty good john model set up, but it doesn't point to one type of guys, but many, many different types.


Zorglub, there are two possible answers to your question. First, yes, Rio is a GdP mecca where girls from other cities come to make it rich, so that's one part of what you see. This increases in the busy season, so if you're coming here from December to March, you'll find plenty of out-of-town girls.

Second possible answer: you're misunderstanding some girls when they say where they come from. Rio is like Los Angeles: it's a collection of cities in a metro area. Many, if not most, of the girls come from outlying, poorer, satelite towns which are still part of Rio, socially speaking, but not formally speaking. Unless you know local surrounding geography well, this might throw you off. You ask a girl if she's from Rio and she says, "No, I'm from Campos". You may think it's another city, but it's like asking as girl if she's from L.A. and she says "No, I'm from Oxnard" or Santa Monica.

There are a lot of carioca girls in Copa, but few of them come from Rio proper.

Ahem. Santa Monica is part of LA. Oxnard is not. Try driving to Oxnard and you will know what I mean. Think LA county and Ventura county. Point well taken though. I once knew a girl who lived close to Rio but she never said that.

Macunaima
11-15-05, 16:37
Two reasons I'm here, FT.

One is that the research is far from concluded. I've agreed with several here, as well. I've agreed with folks that many women working the town aren't from here, that pros are generally not good people for a john to fall in love with, that termas are generally higher class than Help, Balconey or the streets, that Vila Mimosa is not a dangerous place, but the region surrounding it is, etc.

Want me to continue? I think it's pretty obvious that I've accepted certain people's opinions and disagreed with others.

The second reason is that it's ethically correct to present results to the groups you are studying, not the least to see how they react. Most folks who study sexual tourism don't do this because, frankly, they believe that mongers are scum who need to be locked up. They thus feel no need to treat mongers with the same degree of ethics that they would treat, say, Indians, or garimpeiros, or members of the MST or any of the "politically correct" groups which anthros study. This pisses me off.

As for "disagreeing" with folk, FT, at this point, I could say the ocean is full of water and I'm sure Bubba Boy, Comgo and Exec Talent would get on here and start screaming that my opinion is full of shit because there are also fish, plants and disolved minerals in the sea, not to mention sunken ships and etc.

It takes two to tangle, man. I'm responsible for articulating my own opinion, not for making that opinion correspond to what others think.

John05, point taken on Oxnard. However, I tend to think of Oxnard as part of Greater LA, just as I tend to think of Teresópolis as part of Greater Rio de Janeiro. Both cities revolve around the larger metropolis, though they are in fact and hour or so outside of them and are not considered to be part of the city proper.

The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that many of the "out-of-town" girls come from closer in than people imagine, especially during the off-season.

Macunaima
11-16-05, 00:52
alot of the stuff i'm reading is in portuguese. but you can access the same sort of material, published by similar folks, by searching for anything by ecpat. this was one of the groups that started the current round of bafafá here in brazil about 7 years ago. here's their website:

http://www.ecpat.net/eng/index.asp

you'll notice that mostly they talk about ending the exploitation of kids, which i think most mongers would agree with, but their agenda goes a bit beyond that.

julia o'connel davidson's book "prostitution, power and freedom" offers a more soft-sell version of the same general critique.

here in brazil, you can look for reports and publications of an organization called the smm (serviço a mulheres marginalizadas) and another one called cecria. cecria just released a federal and usaid-financed "study" (with extremely poor methodology) called pestraf wherein they identify mongers as a primary vector for both ****philia and the sexual enslavement of women. this is, of course, the current view of things that the carioca branch of the federal police support. they've just started using the film "4-evr lilja" as a "training tool" to help officers understand the foreign threat to our women. you can probably pick this film up at the local rent-a-video. watch and tell me if you think it accurately portrays the kind of thing that's happening down on copacabana.

cecria, btw, routinely culls this site for quotes "proving" mongers are scum and a threat, which are then offered, out of context, every time they do an official presentation to government or ngo people.

often, of course, the critique is couched in apparently moderate language. but here and there you'll find the main nuts: the general approach is that sexual tourism inevitably increases abuse of children and trafficking of women. these groups have no hard data to back up these claims in brazil, however, and ouyr research indicates the opposite, in fact.

Full Throttle
11-16-05, 02:55
I've agreed with several here, as well. I've agreed with folks that many women working the town aren't from here, that pros are generally not good people for a john to fall in love with, that termas are generally higher class than Help, Balconey or the streets, that Vila Mimosa is not a dangerous place, but the region surrounding it is, etc.


I didn't mean to imply that you agree or disagree. My opinion is that you have formed iron-clad opinions about every subject that is brought up, and are gaining nothing from anyone of us. You might already agree with us or already disagree, but you already have your mind made up. So why bother reading what we have to say? How is it helping your research to constantly tell us what you already know?

FT

Wandering Fool
11-16-05, 03:38
Often, of course, the critique is couched in apparently moderate language. But here and there you'll find the main nuts: the general approach is that sexual tourism inevitably increases abuse of children and trafficking of women. These groups have NO hard data to back up these claims in Brazil, however, and ouyr research indicates the opposite, in fact.There always seem to be crusaders who are out to prove that trafficking is rampant -even in US cities. In the US, the DA can use these allegations to rile up the community and justify a bunch of prostitution busts whether they're true or not. The press continues the lie because it makes for great headlines.

I happen to catch a very good "history of prostitution" type of show on the History Channel last year. In early part of the century, NY City was rampant with cat houses and prostitution (I guess it hasn't changed!) and at some point the female led crusade to abolish this "plague of immoratity" (namely, their husbands actually getting laid for a change) attempted to demonstrate that trafficking was widespread. But in actual interviews of over 1200 women the organization only found a few cases to be true. Everyone else was in there of their own choice.

Mac, I'm glad you are trying to approach this subject without passing judgment on mongers. I agree with your assesment of the reasons mongers do what they do. I used to think that sex tourists must be awful people based on things I'd seen in the press and TV until at some point I realized that I, on occasion, fall into the monger category too! I'm just a normal, upstanding citizen, nice guy, well liked etc who likes to occasionally act out what most other guys wish they could do (screw their brains out with hot girls for a week).

When I'm in copa I meet a wide crossection of mongers. Particularly during carnival, I noticed the more stereotyped asshole guys who look at the girls as animals and act like the "loud stupid" americans we're criticized at times for being. I also meet some very friendly dudes who seem well adjusted, treat the girls well and are simply there to have a great time, get laid and relax.

Macunaima
11-16-05, 04:11
Just got done watching an interview with an ex-GP, "Bruna Surfistinha", on Jô 11 e Meia, Brazil's biggest nocturnal talk-show. Jô's kinda like Letterman...

Here's what Raquel, AKA "Bruna Surfistinha had to say about pros cumming...

"It's incredible that these guys are often so concerned about our pleasure, even though they know full well that we are only fucking them for money. Unless you fake an orgasm, they just won't leave, so you often have to do just that."

Raquel had nothing bad to say about prostitution or her clients and she's currently engaged with her boyfriend a Brazilian and an ex-client. She has a blog for those of you who can read Portuguese and are interested. Check it out:

www.brunasurfistinha.com/blogs

You can also see her at...

http://www.1grau.com/minhapagina_perfil.asp?usuario_id=589156026392

Might take a while for you to get on because half of Brazil is trying to access it right now.

Raquel's also written a book: "O Doce Veneno do Escorpião - O Diário de uma Garota de Programa", by Bruna Surfistinha. Published by Panda Books and selling for 17.20 at the Saraiva Megastore nearest you. Here's the publisher's jackert blurb, which I'll translate to Portuguese later, as time and circumstances permit...

Bruna Surfistinha é a principal personalidade da internet brasileira hoje em dia. Seu blog (www.brunasurfistinha.com) é visitado diariamente por quase 15 mil internautas que se deliciam com os relatos picantes dos programas que ela faz com homens, mulheres e casais em seu flat. Todos os programas (que podem chegar a seis num dia!) são descritos e Bruna ainda criou uma cotação para o desempenho do cliente. Bruna conta também em detalhes as festas que participou em clubes de swing. Sem medo de mostrar a cara, a garota de programa foi entrevistada em emissoras de rádio, programas de TV e revistas de circulação nacional. Só que muitas histórias ficaram guardadas e só são reveladas agora em "O Doce Veneno do Escorpião". Você vai conhecer detalhes reveladores da menina de classe média alta que trocou os finais de semana com a família no Guarujá para se prostituir aos 17 anos. O livro traz ainda um diário secretíssimo de Bruna Surfistinha, com as histórias mais ousadas que ela não teve coragem de publicar no blog. O diário, com 36 páginas negras, vem lacrado. Por fim, Bruna também dá pequenas lições para uma mulher de como conquistar o homem - e jamais perdê-lo para uma garota de programa.


Guess what I'm buying tommorrow? LOL

Macunaima
11-16-05, 04:25
Actually, Full Throttle, I gain quite a lot from the guys here. And how does my talking about my research here help? The bafafá about whether or not pros cum was quite instructive regarding how some guy's egos are totally caught up in their fantasies - to the point where several threatened me with physical violence for even SUGGESTING that pros don't regularly cum.

As for my "iron clad opinions", show me one. The fact that I don't agree with you or someone else about something doesn't mean I have an "iron clad oppinion" FT: it simply means that you haven't given me much reason to change my current one. About the ONLY big argument I've ever had here with anyone is regarding pros cumming and I've done my opinion to death on that topic, below. Bottom line: it's going to take more than a handful of johns' words on that one to change my mind. I'm becoming more and more convinced, in fact, given the vehemnecy of the reactions expressed by a couple of people here, that for a handful of johns this is a very, very sensitive and emotion laden question. If anything, the rambling, often contradictory PMs I've gotten from certain guys here screaming at me for daring to doubt their version of reality has convinced me, if anything, that most of these guys are caught up in a cherished fantasy. People who don't have a big emotional investment in the question simply don't respond the way certain people here have.

The majority of the men on this site, however, seem to be pretty level headed dudes and their reaction to this whole debate has been one big collective shrug and a "Maybe so, occasionally; probably not, certainly not with everyone" when the question of "do pros cum or not?" pops up. Those are the guys I agree with and their opinion, judging from the posts here and the mail filling my box, outweighs the other side by something like three to one.

So in fact, my opinion on this topic - which, you'll recall, is the only substantial argument I've been in - in fact mirrors the opinion of the majority of the posters I've talked to here.

Now, as to how "iron clad" this opinion is... again, it depends on the strength of peoples' arguments. Before the current bafafá, I would have said "Pros hardly ever cum. Johns who think they do are fooling themselves". The debates here, however, have made me think a bit further on this. I still think pros hardly ever cum, but as my own research indicates, the line between GdP and GF is propositally thin out on Copa, so where and how GdP behavior leaves off and GF behavior starts is anyone's guess.

Take a guy like Exec Talent, for instance. Now here's a guy who goes out of his way in this forum to drop, every chance he gets, how much money he makes and what he spends on these girls. In his mails to me during our argument, he was constantly rubbing my face in his supposed wealth and bragging about the "presents" he gives his girls, how they all cum with him because he knows how to treat them and etc.

OK, so we take the guy at his word (which is confirmed by postings of his gouing back on this forumn a couple of years, so at least he's consistent) and what kind of picture comes up? A man who's very impressed with his own wealth and what it can do, someone who likes spreading cash around as if it's no nevermind and a guy who visits Copa as a matter of routine. Putting this together with what the girls say, one can see a guy who's a real prime "catch" for anyone looking to retire from the Copa pro market through marriage to a rich gringo. And that is generally done through cultivating "reciprocal", apparently non-commercial relationships...

Now, I myself have made the comment that "love" for these women is a project, something you dedicate your energies towards creating when the guy looks worth your while. A big part of love, as we here in the west see it, is taking sexual pleasure from your loved one. So I could easily see these women either going the extra mile to achieve orgasm with a guy like ET or at least putting all their not inconsiderable acting talent into making him think they're cumming. Whether they do or not is really of no concern: the fact of the matter is, ET's convinced and the pay off for the girls is at least presents.

This whole debate has thus helped me see how strategic the illusion of pleasure really is to constructing the kind of relationships which these girls hope will get them off Copa and overseas.

So it's not true to say my opinion hasn't changed. My opinion just rarely changes in a yes/no, good/bad, high/low, black/white fashion...

Sperto
11-16-05, 12:54
they've just started using the film "4-evr lilja" as a "training tool" to help officers understand the foreign threat to our women. you can probably pick this film up at the local rent-a-video. watch and tell me if you think it accurately portrays the kind of thing that's happening down on copacabana.
...the general approach is that sexual tourism inevitably increases abuse of children and trafficking of women. these groups have no hard data to back up these claims in brazil, however, and ouyr research indicates the opposite, in fact.
brazil has an image of being a sexual paradise with hot women. this surely attracts not only mongers but also kid-abusers and people in the business of trafficking women. even though this might not occur a lot brazil must be tough and punish all the kid-abusers and pimps who comes and pollute their country.

fortaleza had lots of problems with gringos and **** prostitutes. now the police goes down hard on the sick f***s who come to fortaleza looking for minors. they should do the same in rio, recife etc.

what happens in "lilja 4-ever" happens in most european countries. mostly with girls from russia and the baltic states. there are propably also a big demand for brazilian girls. i guess there are foreigners fooling brazilian women that they will bring them to europe to work in a restaurant earning big money. then they lock them up forcing them to work as pro's.

Full Throttle
11-16-05, 15:12
About the ONLY big argument I've ever had here with anyone is regarding pros cumming and I've done my opinion to death on that topic, below. Bottom line: it's going to take more than a handful of johns' words on that one to change my mind. I'm becoming more and more convinced,...

It is funny that this topic has persisted among so many other more provocative ones. My research is based on a lot more than "a handful of johns." In fact, it spans several continents and includes many conversations with the girls. I agree with you that actual satisfaction and perceived satisfaction is huge. However, your blanket statement is just as flawed as theirs/ours.

Like you, I've reached a comfort level with many girls sufficient to allow us to talk about politics, kids, weather, and our respective professions. Not so often in Brazil, as my passable Spanish gets me nowhere in a Portuguese conversation. My very good friend lives in Argentina, and I've enjoyed considerable time with the pros there when off the clock. This topic has come up from time to time, and the girls have been quite candid with me. I mean, they share everything with us - how tough it is to get a really heavy guy 'engaged,' dealings with other chicas, with management, documentation problems, violent johns, and, yes, johns they grow attached to.

Again, it doesn't really matter that you don't agree, except that it diminishes my faith in some of your other information that you convey, because I happen to know the truth about this thing that you're wrong about.

While I don't understand why some guys have gotten so heated with you on the subject, I also don't understand why it is difficult for you to accept that close girlfriend/boyfriend relationships develop—even if for an hour at a time. It's just chemistry. When two human beings spend time together, a bond develops. This intimacy is manifest in many ways, including real love-making among a john and his pro (or vice-versa).

What it does not necessarily do is change the dynamic of the relationship. To this end, you are providing a very valuable service. While I believe the girls sometimes genuinely connect and "fall for" a john in the moment, or even whenever in his presence, the girls are smart enough and jaded enough to dismiss the emotion immediately, and return to the task of extracting as much money as possible for the least amount of effort. This leads to money being wired across the world, multiple sugar-daddy's, and ill-conceived pre-emptive divorces that lead to despair for everyone except the pro, who simply pity’s the john.

FT

Le Dragueur
11-16-05, 17:29
I have absolutely no idea whether a pro cums or not during sex, and neither do I particularly care. If you're a john who's honest enough to realize that it's your pleasure that comes first (no pun intended), then whether she cums or not really doesn't matter.

The only thing - the ONLY thing - you know for sure is that, in the end, that pro is taking your money.

That's really it.

All you johns out there who still think she's cumming for you, I have only one suggestion:

Take money away from the equation completely - no cash, and nothing else like dinners, gifts, movies, etc. that she gets for free out of your own dime.

So now it's just you alone with just your personality, and maybe good looks.

Will that pro still be attracted to you? Is she still willing to fuck you, even if she knows that she has absolutely nothing financial or material to gain from you?

If she is, then there might be something to your argument, i.e., her cumming.

Otherwise, as long as money is involved, and it's going only one direction (i.e., away from your hands and into hers), then whether she is truly cumming or not is both unknowable and irrelevant.

Umgman
11-16-05, 23:15
if mac has participated in prostitution.

why would someone be interested in it? aren't there more important topics of study for a social scientist? are you kidding?

a brief glimmer of thought reveals that a topic encompassing millions of women in the world (many against their will, many ****), millions of men, billions of dollars. a topic encompassing how women in dire financial straits survive. a topic involving hiv, the most salient health risk of our generation. why would a social scientist, or any scientist for that matter, be passionate about this subject? would you like to retract your question? you may not like mac or what he writes, and may do whatever you can to try to disprove his point, but for god's sake please think for a second before you type.

anyone read gq magazine? the latest part of their series on the sex trade involves costa rica, but may as well be brazil. the statistics quoted about the percentage of women who have been either sexually or physically abused during their lives runs up to 75-85%. the gist of the article--by a female social scientist who probably has never been a prostitute, is that pretty much every women in the profession wants out, and most would be as happy to strangle you as look at you. so really, any of you and yes i dare say all of you (except for me) who think you are making the women cum are deluded. yeah, blah blah vaginal contractions, breathing changes, hypersensitivity--acting. for those who think you can't fake it, yes you can (except for the girls with me who don't need to).

remember the old joke--how do you tell if a woman is cumming? answer--who cares. this admittedly callous attitude is the most realistic when you pay to get your dick wet. when i buy dinner, i don't go back to the kitchen and make sure the chef has eaten a good dinner, right?

open your eyes, boys. it'll do you good.

Wandering Fool
11-17-05, 04:11
if mac has participated in prostitution.

why would someone be interested in it? aren't there more important topics of study for a social scientist? are you kidding?

a brief glimmer of thought reveals that a topic encompassing millions of women in the world (many against their will, many ****), millions of men, billions of dollars. a topic encompassing how women in dire financial straits survive. a topic involving hiv, the most salient health risk of our generation. why would a social scientist, or any scientist for that matter, be passionate about this subject? would you like to retract your question? you may not like mac or what he writes, and may do whatever you can to try to disprove his point, but for god's sake please think for a second before you type.

anyone read gq magazine? the latest part of their series on the sex trade involves costa rica, but may as well be brazil. the statistics quoted about the percentage of women who have been either sexually or physically abused during their lives runs up to 75-85%. the gist of the article--by a female social scientist who probably has never been a prostitute, is that pretty much every women in the profession wants out, and most would be as happy to strangle you as look at you. so really, any of you and yes i dare say all of you (except for me) who think you are making the women cum are deluded. yeah, blah blah vaginal contractions, breathing changes, hypersensitivity--acting. for those who think you can't fake it, yes you can (except for the girls with me who don't need to).

remember the old joke--how do you tell if a woman is cumming? answer--who cares. this admittedly callous attitude is the most realistic when you pay to get your dick wet. when i buy dinner, i don't go back to the kitchen and make sure the chef has eaten a good dinner, right?

open your eyes, boys. it'll do you good.

where do i begin?

"many against their will" the implication here is that a large portion of prostitution is slave trade. wrong.

"many ****" i'm sure you meant to say, "a small minority" **** but mistyped.

the women just want to get out? right around the corner from help are a slew of drug stores, clothing stores etc all overstocked with nice girls earning a meager living. any girl from help or mp could choose to work at these jobs. in any country there is the opportunity to get out (except in the cases of slave trade) if a girl really wants to. yes, it may mean serious sacrifices and hardship, as their contemporaries (the majority of the population) who do not choose to be prostitutes undergo, but the option is there.

i can't comment on the gq article as i have not read it, however it is common practice with these reports for the media (with an ax to grind) to provide a myopic view of the bottom of the barrel of this trade in order to paint the whole thing as a travisty to humanity. it wouldn't be politically correct, nor serve the purpose of their crusade to reveal the other side of the coin, the greatest spa on earth that is a rio terma and all the mid level or part time pros who are living financially way ahead of their peers. and would they ever dare discuss the high end girls who make more than most of us in a given week? never, except when the story goes for that heidi fliess angle which usually still focuses on the excesses of the madam and requisite exploitation and victimization of her girls.

"yeah, blah blah vaginal contractions, breathing changes, hypersensitivity--acting."

yes, you're right, i guess they all go to the same tibetan monk and spend years learning to manipulate their vital signs just to pick up a few extra bucks at help. you'd think after all that training and enlightenment they'd no longer want to chase the quick buck, but they always do.

if you want to see the other side of this, the side that some of us are trying to point out, go to some of the discussion forums where working girls participate.

why don't you naysayers check out the erotic review discussion forums. there are regular threads where working girls discuss the tempations of falling for a client, how some clients really turn them on etc. i think this is important input for mac and the others to hear that there are girls who actually enjoy their work and get pleasure from it:

www.the************.com

this whole idea that these girls just get no pleasure from this is such crap. brazilian girls, in particular, are passionate emotional beings. they love to dance and laugh and cry and get completely worked up over stupid petty issues, but suddenly when it comes to the intense sensual act of having sex you think they just shut down and go numb?


i don't know, maybe many of the pros in south america hate their jobs and many of the us pros like it, but ironically, i go to south america because it seems the opposite.

Hot To Cool
11-17-05, 10:06
It is funny that this topic has persisted among so many other more provocative ones. My research is based on a lot more than "a handful of johns." In fact, it spans several continents and includes many conversations with the girls. I agree with you that actual satisfaction and perceived satisfaction is huge. However, your blanket statement is just as flawed as theirs/ours.

Like you, I've reached a comfort level with many girls sufficient to allow us to talk about politics, kids, weather, and our respective professions. Not so often in Brazil, as my passable Spanish gets me nowhere in a Portuguese conversation. My very good friend lives in Argentina, and I've enjoyed considerable time with the pros there when off the clock. This topic has come up from time to time, and the girls have been quite candid with me. I mean, they share everything with us - how tough it is to get a really heavy guy 'engaged,' dealings with other chicas, with management, documentation problems, violent johns, and, yes, johns they grow attached to.

Again, it doesn't really matter that you don't agree, except that it diminishes my faith in some of your other information that you convey, because I happen to know the truth about this thing that you're wrong about.

While I don't understand why some guys have gotten so heated with you on the subject, I also don't understand why it is difficult for you to accept that close girlfriend/boyfriend relationships develop—even if for an hour at a time. It's just chemistry. When two human beings spend time together, a bond develops. This intimacy is manifest in many ways, including real love-making among a john and his pro (or vice-versa).

What it does not necessarily do is change the dynamic of the relationship. To this end, you are providing a very valuable service. While I believe the girls sometimes genuinely connect and "fall for" a john in the moment, or even whenever in his presence, the girls are smart enough and jaded enough to dismiss the emotion immediately, and return to the task of extracting as much money as possible for the least amount of effort. This leads to money being wired across the world, multiple sugar-daddy's, and ill-conceived pre-emptive divorces that lead to despair for everyone except the pro, who simply pity’s the john.

FT

Macu and FT,

You both agree, actually. It's a matter of degree. The reason mongers come back again and again to Rio is that the GdP's "fake" the GFE experience much better, IMHO, than in other parts of the world. They have this "je ne sais quoi" or possibly "joie de vivre" that non-Brazilians don't usually convey. This just makes it that much more of a GFE. Now, if once in a while the GdP does actually have a true GFE, I doubt that even she herself would know it because she is so accustomed to providing good GFE's.

HTC

Macunaima
11-17-05, 12:38
full thrust, there's a couple of problems with describing what you do as "research. first of all, it's not systematic nor is its intent to uncover the social relationships functioning within a given social universe. frankly, i'm not much bothered with what's happening in thailand or germany. i'm not even that interested in the brazilian northeast to tell the truth: i'm interestd in copacabana. social sceintific research generally needs to be tightly focused if it's to be of any use at all, especially when one's dealing with a semi-clandestine topic like the sex industry, which varies wildly from city to city.

secondly, just having experience is not anthropological "research". maintaining full field notes which can be referenced later, cross-referencing what you observe with the observation of colleagues who are also maintaining copious notes and, most importantly, reading what everyone else writes and has written on the topic, then writing up your conclusions in accepted academic form and presenting them for peer critique... that's what you need to do for this kind of research. that doesn't make what you do any less valuable, but it does make it more of a highly subjective process and less of a scientific endeavor. your what gets called in the trade a "priviledged native informant". if you were to start writing academically, you'd become a "native anthropologist". why you'd want to do this, however, is beyond me. it's not like anthropology pays. you've got to be as fanatic about it, in your own way, as some guys are for mongering.

also, my conclusions aren't based on "a handful of guys". you misread that statement. they are based on a relative handful of guys who are the minority in a much larger group.

finally, what "blanket statement" are you talking about? i'm buildng what's known in the trade here as "ideal types". these are models to guide critical thought - not laws or rules which are meant to encompass every variant of behavior observable in the streets. they serve as a map or a blueprint. you seem to mistaking that blueprint for the actual building - or at least you're accusing me of that. based on what, exactly?

i mean, listen to you:
"again, it doesn't really matter that you don't agree, except that it diminishes my faith in some of your other information that you convey, because i happen to know the truth about this thing that you're wrong about."

i presume neither of us knows the truth about anything here. i presume that these girls will say something different to you and me and a third thing to another guy. i'm not working on a model which assumes that there is an objective truth to be had, full throttle: i'm working on a model which presents amnd weighs oppinions and arguments by a series of actors in a complex situation.

so it seems to me, ft, that you're simply upset because you believe that you possess "the full truth" and yopu feel that what i'm saying contradicts what you believe. frankly, i don't even understand where, exactly, you think our opinions differ. surely you're not saying that it's routine for pros to cum with clients? is that what you think "the truth about this thing" is?


now, you say...

"i also don't understand why it is difficult for you to accept that close girlfriend/boyfriend relationships develop..."

...which seems to me to be a misreading of everything i've said here. where have i said that it's difficult for this sort of thing to develpo? i have actually said the opposite, in fact: i've said that it's in these womens' interest that such relationships develop and that this, in fact, is the reason freebies get given out to certain guys. but then you ruin it all and say...

"—even if for an hour at a time."

love isn't bought and sold "an hour at a time", full throttle. sex is. ask any pro. even the ones who claim to fall in love with a client typically portray the guy as "the love of my life" - not as someone whom they "love" for an hour and then drop. brazilians - pros and non, men and women - are notoriously possessive about people they feel they love. jealousy is the one thing most gringos comment most upon when discussing relationships with brazilians. i've never seen a brazilian "love" someone for an hour only, man.

but what's the definition of "love" that you're using here? maybe we aren't on the same page and what you call "love" isn't what i call "love". so what ar you seeing there?

Macunaima
11-17-05, 12:53
Marak sez:
"I am asking WHY you study it if you have never participated it. Please read a little closer next time."

Ah. Sorry. I thought that had been explained earlier, but perhaps you didn't read the explanation. I used to work in the sex industry as a dancer and later as a union organizer. Several of my friends and relatives have also worked in the sex industry at various times. I've always thus looked at the periodic moral panics surrounding prostitution with a bit of a jaundiced eye. Sort of "Oh, c'mon. Get real. Surely there are more troublesome things than this to get worked up about."

When I did my masters it was about gringos here in Rio and I quickly came face to face with this supposed split: there are guys who come here specifically because of Copa and the like and a huge community of gringos who AVOID that neighborhood and all it stands for. This second group tends to portray themselves as "good" gringos and that's how the media sees them. You guys, on the other hand, are the "evil slimey sex tourists".

I took that view at face value, initially, but the more gringos I interviewed, the more it became obvious that there WAS nho substantive difference between the two groups values and morals. What was the difference, then? The second group by and large lived here and spoke Portuguese. They had plenty of Brazilian friends, hardly went out with other gringos, and were very engaged in the social life here. It was thus pretty easy for them to get laid whenever they wanted just by "normally" chatting up women. And if they did go to zonas, they went to places like VM (before it started to appear on the monger map with any consistency) or other "Brazilian" venues.

And what REALLY struck me about these guys was how many of them ended up with pros or almost pros anyhow. Basically, these guys tend to haunt gringo-chaser bars. Why? Because they are after pussy like anyone else and pussy's easily had in these bars if one speaks Portuguese and lives in town. But many of these women are, in fact, off duty pros or are "amateurs" - girls who live from one gringo "boyfriend" to the next without ever actually charging for programs, but who get plenty of money in gbifts and such in return.

In other words, many of these guys who so looked so looked down at mongers as "scum of the earth" - maybe even a majority of them - were doing pretty much the same things mongers were doing, except that the money and presents which exchanged hands were never, ever understood to be a "program fee".

So I thought that given this, the time had come to start looking at the "bad gringos", the sex tourists, more in depth. Coincidently, at that same time, the CECRIA report started being bandied about in pre-published form and "the fight against sexual tourism" started rhetorically flowing out of politicians' mouths. The more I looked into things, the more it became apparent that this big public panic was simply a nice way for several groups to scape-goat their fears and frustrations off on itinerant gringos. You guys are a perfect target for this because you're not here, typically, to defend yourselves and no one - particularly not the local gringos - could care less what happens to you. This disturbed me because from a cop or politician's viewpoint, a gringo is a gringo is a gringo. I thought the local gringos were being pretty damned stupid because this sort of thing could easily turn around and bite them on the ass and, indeed, that is what's beginning to happen. Even the PMDB, the supposedly "nice" neo-liberal party is going into the next round of elections under the slogan "Brazil for Brazilians".

Nationalism is at an all-time high and you guys are a WONDERFUL target for any politican who wants to simultaneously whip up the yobs into a populist frenzy WITHOUT pissing off George W. Bush and his pals in the U.S. Why? 'Cause everyone hates you, man. Well, not everyone: the girls don't hate you (some may despise you, but smart pros know where their money comes from) and the bar-owners LOVE you. I don't hate you because I've come to realize that, for better or worse, you guys are no different from most of the other men who come here - or from most Brazilian men, for that matter. You're basically just these dudes. If what you're doing is "evil" (and I make no judgement here, for or against), then men, as they really exist in this world, right now, are also "evil".

But the U.S. State Department would just as soon see you dudes hung up by your balls. Remember, the two parties controlling U.S. politics today are best represented by Bush and Hilary Clinton: both can make bank on "attacking sexual tourism" for any number of reasons. So you guys are a very convenient gringo to hate: one which can be publically flogged (well, perhaps not THAT far) without pissing off the folks who run the U.S. In fact, the Brazilian government can get MONEY today from USAID to go after you guys. That's a significant development: we used to get money to go after HIV/AIDS. Now, instead of distributing condoms and educating, the "politically correct" thing to do is stop all these foreign fucks from contributing to the corruption of our women and children. How do you think that policy slots in with those of certain U.S. political groups?

And, of course, if I'm going to study mongers, I HAVE to study pros as well. They're half of what's going on. So I joined forces with a female colleague who was doing precisely that and we started exchanging data and accompanying each other into the field.

Hope that answers your question, Marak.

Full Throttle
11-17-05, 14:56
Excellent post.

Full Throttle
11-17-05, 16:25
Also, my conclusions aren't based on "a handful of guys". You misread that statement. They are based on a relative handful of guys who are the minority in a much larger group.

??

Do you mean thousands of guys who are a minority because they are mongers?





I mean, listen to you:
"Again, it doesn't really matter that you don't agree, except that it diminishes my faith in some of your other information that you convey, because I happen to know the truth about this thing that you're wrong about."

I presume NEITHER of us knows THE TRUTH about anything here. I presume that these girls will say something different to you and me and a third thing to another guy. I'm not working on a model which assumes that there IS an objective truth to be had, Full Throttle: I'm working on a model which presents amnd weighs oppinions and arguments by a series of actors in a complex situation.

Man (no offense), you are a prolific writer.
It is a complex situation and neither of us knows ALL truths. The purpose of your "research" is to help others avoid untruths in many cases and discover real truths in others. I don't claim to have accomplished any expansive quantitative study, but, sometimes, a qualitative study leaves you 100% convinced that you are right about something.


So it seems to me, FT, that you're simply upset because YOU believe that you possess "the full truth" and you feel that what I'm saying contradicts what you believe. Frankly, I don't even understand where, exactly, you think our opinions differ. Surely you're not saying that it's ROUTINE for pros to cum with clients? Is that what you think "the truth about this thing" is?

Like you say, our opinions shouldn't really matter in the context of a fact-finding study. The whole "cumming" thing may seem like a distraction to an otherwise mature discourse, but I think it is materially important to your study. If girls do cum more often with their clients than what they lead you to believe, they also may connect to them emotionally and intellectually far, far more than they report.

And, since I am extraordinarily confident that this occurs, and you seemed to be equally convinced that it doesn't, it bothers me. I don't know if we're squabbling about percentages or absolutes. Just in case the former is the case, I would place the over-and-under at around 20% O's, and the majority of them through oral pleasure. Now we can argue if a clitoral orgasm counts...



Now, you say...

"I also don't understand why it is difficult for you to accept that close girlfriend/boyfriend relationships develop..."

...which seems to me to be a misreading of everything I've said here. Where have I said that it's difficult for this sort of thing to develpo? I have actually said the opposite, in fact: I've said that it's in these womens' INTEREST that such relationships develop and that this, in fact, is the reason freebies get given out to certain guys. But then you ruin it all and say...

"—even if for an hour at a time."

Love isn't bought and sold "an hour at a time", Full Throttle. Sex is.


What I intended to convey is that the "love" can be turned off in the john's absence. Whether an hour together or most of a vacation, my point is that the girl feels all of those emotions and feelings many equate to love. I didn't mean to imply that these feelings would develop in one hour.

Remember "Pretty Woman?" How she didn't kiss on the mouth with johns because of the implied intimacy? That was her control. I think a lot of the girls you speak with want to convey that they keep more control than they actually do.

Cunnilinguist
11-17-05, 19:24
where do i begin?

"many against their will" the implication here is that a large portion of prostitution is slave trade. wrong.

"many ****" i'm sure you meant to say, "a small minority" **** but mistyped.

the women just want to get out? right around the corner from help are a slew of drug stores, clothing stores etc all overstocked with nice girls earning a meager living. any girl from help or mp could choose to work at these jobs. in any country there is the opportunity to get out (except in the cases of slave trade) if a girl really wants to. yes, it may mean serious sacrifices and hardship, as their contemporaries (the majority of the population) who do not choose to be prostitutes undergo, but the option is there.

i can't comment on the gq article as i have not read it, however it is common practice with these reports for the media (with an ax to grind) to provide a myopic view of the bottom of the barrel of this trade in order to paint the whole thing as a travisty to humanity. it wouldn't be politically correct, nor serve the purpose of their crusade to reveal the other side of the coin, the greatest spa on earth that is a rio terma and all the mid level or part time pros who are living financially way ahead of their peers. and would they ever dare discuss the high end girls who make more than most of us in a given week? never, except when the story goes for that heidi fliess angle which usually still focuses on the excesses of the madam and requisite exploitation and victimization of her girls.

"yeah, blah blah vaginal contractions, breathing changes, hypersensitivity--acting."

yes, you're right, i guess they all go to the same tibetan monk and spend years learning to manipulate their vital signs just to pick up a few extra bucks at help. you'd think after all that training and enlightenment they'd no longer want to chase the quick buck, but they always do.

this whole idea that these girls just get no pleasure from this is such crap. brazilian girls, in particular, are passionate emotional beings. they love to dance and laugh and cry and get completely worked up over stupid petty issues, but suddenly when it comes to the intense sensual act of having sex you think they just shut down and go numb?

i don't know, maybe many of the pros in south america hate their jobs and many of the us pros like it, but ironically, i go to south america because it seems the opposite.


i agree 100%!!!!

Sunset
11-18-05, 10:02
Why do girls get tattoos of spiders and scorpions?

Macunaima
11-18-05, 17:03
OK, FT, two questions, then:

First, what's your technique for measurement of the female orgasm? What is the process you use that can determine, with a great degree of certainty (scientifically speaking, it would have to have more than an 80% certainty rate, otherwise that 20% occurence of orgasm you indicate would simply be lost in the noise), when a woman is cumming as oppsed to when a highly skilled actress is faking cumming?

Second, what definition of "love" are you using here? What behaviors do you observe that allow you to determine whether or not someone is "in love" - whether it be for an hour or forever?

I think those two things need to be talked about and pegged out before we go any further, otherwise we risk talking about completely different things using the same words and getting mutually frustrated and pissed off.

I have to say, I find it VERY hard to believe that women like Gabriela Leite or Bruna Surfistinha who are corageous enough to get up in front of God, their families and the whole country and say on public T.V. "Hey, I'm a *****. Deal with it," are somehow so "embarrassed" at cumming with clients that they never breathe a word about this to anyone and, in fact, construct elaborate and highly detailed lies in order to hide the fact that they are really enjoying sex with their clients, at least 20% of the time. All these women are very, very open about what they do and why and it seems to me that you'd have to make a very strong argument, based on something other than a Hollywood film, that they were so embarassed about something that NONE of them ever talk about it. I know of no taboo in human experience that has that degree of compliance.

Right now, Occam's Razor suggest that the most LIKELY solution is that you are being fooled, more often than not. It's a less complicated theory that's and backed up by much more observable evidence, reported by the vast majority of women and men involved in this sort of thing.

But hey, I'm open minded. Convince me I'm wrong. Answering the two qeustions above will be a good step in that direction - or at least towards a decent discourse.

Nice post, BtW, WF.

Sunset asks about the spiders and scorpion tatoos...

What, you've never seen the butterflies and eagles? LOL.

Beach and surf culture here in Rio is very into tatoos these days and "tribals" or vaguely menacing or "pretty" insects and animals are all the rage, not just with pros but with every kid in the greater metro area who ascribes to be a beach bum. I think that's probably what you're seeing there. I'm not aware that scorpions and spiders are anymore common than the other things though...

See? This is the type of data one doesn't get when one doesn't monger. But it can easily be gotten from asking questions from those who do. Anyone else out there notice more spider and scorpion tats?

Macunaima
11-18-05, 17:30
umgman and wandering fool both make excellent points. here's what i think...

very few women like being a pro. it's a shitty job and there is no doubt at all about that. you try it if you think it's fun. but to those who point to this as a reason for banning the job, i say "so the fuck what?" very few women like being maids, mcdonalds employees, or any other form of hard, underpaid labor. most copa pros left jobs like these to become pros so i think it's safe to say that, however prostitution may be, they don't consider it to be as bad, overall, as cleaning guest rooms in a hotel for the minimum wage. and so far, i have yet to hear one feminist voice beign raised suggesting that these sort of "normal" jobs be banned because their employees hate them. in fact, most prohibitionists i know seem to feel that offering a pro a 400 real a month job will automatically make her drop the 2000-4000 real month job she currently has. call me a male chauvinist pig, but i just don't see it happening, folks.

as to the reports about pros having a higher than average incidence of having suffered sexual violence in the past, mebbe so, mebbe not. even for countries like the u.s., the data on this point is murky and contradictory. because of the stigma of prostitution, pros will routinely explain their insertion in the profession by pushing it off on factors that are "beyond their control", such as poverty or what have you. this sort of thing may be what's actually being measured in a lot of studies.

the only way to make sure would be to conduct a large series of kinsey-style sexual life history interviews with pros, asking cross-referenced questions and repeating them with different phraseology in order to catch people in contradictions or to see if the accurately report what they feel has occurred to them. this is accepted sexual sociology methodology and, as far as i know, no one has ever done this - escpecially not in latin america.

what you do get is a lot of sociology of the "lois lane, girl reporter" type, where a (typically) female investigator with a preconceived notion of what's happening surreptiously guides a handful of interviewees to the conclusion she wants them to give. it's incredibly easy to do this with pros: just ask something like "did you have any early experiences with violence or [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) which may have pushed you later into the profession?" and away we go. you've given the actress her lines and a way of pushing the stigma of prostitution off of herself and on to something or someone else. wjhat kind of answer do you think you'll get, most of the time?

now, not all people do this, but it is quite common when the investigator is an abolitionist. if we really want to answer this question, we know what methodology we need to use, now all we need to do is build a team and get someone to pay for it. oddly enough, however, the abolitionist groups - which are generally very well funded in comparison to people like me - never quite get around to doing this sort of thing, even though their social scientists know as well as i do that it's what needs to be done. gee, i wonder why they're so reluctant to use good methodology...?

the upshot of all this is that that "75-85%" stat sounds awfully made up to me. i wouldn't even repeat it without seeing a good report of the methodology the woman in question used. sounds a lot to me like asshole sociology. you know the type: whip a statistic out of your asshole and pretend its real and 9 times out of 10, no one will question how you got it.

as for the "against their will" and "****" topics, while this may be the case globally (and note i'm not saying it is), it certainly isn't the case on copa. these two things i can definitely affirm: 1) most women, like the job or not, are out on copa with as least as much free will (and probably more) as your average burger-flipper at burger death, and ; 2) the vast majority of these women are adults. a small minority may be 15-18. a tiny minority is younger than that. neither the bars, the girls nor the clients (by and large) want to deal with **** girls on copa: it's not necessary and it's one of the few things that's likely to increase the possibility of a bust significanlty. in all my travels to copa, i'd have to say that i've never seen more than 2% of the pro population there that seemed to me obviously **** - and even that was during carnaval.

Sperto
11-18-05, 17:40
One question: Why bother if a pro gets an orgasm or not? What's the big issue?

She will have sex with you because you pay for it. What's important is that the act is good and I get my orgasm. It's great if she enjoys the act, but I couldn't care less if she has an orgsam or not. I've no need to prove my manhood or sexual skills with a pro.

When a pro starts with her fake moaning I kindly ask her to shut up.

Piper1
11-18-05, 17:54
One question: Why bother if a pro gets an orgasm or not? What's the big issue?

She will have sex with you because you pay for it. What's important is that the act is good and I get my orgasm. It's great if she enjoys the act, but I couldn't care less if she has an orgsam or not. I've no need to prove my manhood or sexual skills with a pro.

When a pro starts with her fake moaning I kindly ask her to shut up.
Sperto - I agree to a point - I have occasionally asked a WG to "stop playing with me" if they jump straight into multi-orgasm theatrics (while I'm still in the bathroom ;) ).

On the other hand, I know that on some occasions a WG actually had an orgasm with me (usually after a long while of sucking and nibbling clit with fingers in various places). Some of these occasions were loud, others not. Have to admit it adds that little extra if they come, but it's not the end of the world if they don't.

cheers

Piper

Full Throttle
11-18-05, 19:48
OK, FT, two questions, then:

Only you can ask 3 questions for every one question.


First, what's your technique for measurement of the female orgasm?

I can't believe I'm having this discussion. But, you're spending the time, so why not?

I suppose a combination of muscle contractions, facial expression, and overt actions to increase her pleasure. For instance, a girl in a terma recently "finished" me off, but then insisted that I continue pleasuring her digitally and orally until she climaxed. 20 minutes prior, she wouldn't even accept my digit.

Interestingly, the more distracted she is, the more likely that she is having her own orgasm. She's obviously concentrating on the sensation or imagining who she would prefer to be with at the moment. In any case, when she cums it makes me glad that she got some enjoyment out of an otherwise horrible job.

Other times, I can tell when the girl stops just prior to having an orgasm. As you know, some girls become quite sensitive for hours after an O, and she may not be done for the night.

Sometimes, they just tell me. They may say they have them all the time, or say that the experience is unusual.

I also notice that, often, after they have their climax that occurs after many minutes of hard work on my part, that they work equally as hard for me to have a good climax. By the way, I rarely have intercourse with the girls, as I enjoy other methods for enjoying intimacy. Plus, I can get on TV and say, "I did not have sex with that woman..."

There are other times that they have been perturbed about having an orgasm, because of the after-effects.

I also speak with and read a lot of reports written by people whom I know. I don't think they are all wrong.



What is the process you use that can determine, with a great degree of certainty...?

I can't. The number I chose is a 20% success rate, not failure rate, by the way. I think my personal number is higher in most circumstances, but, as stated, I use alternative means for stimulation. In fact, I can't think of a time where I have brought a professional girl to a real orgasm while having intercourse.

Again, my 'research' is based on my own experience and anecdotal accounts of others. It would not stand up to scrutiny. Still, I would bet that I am right.


...when a woman is cumming as oppsed to when a highly skilled actress is faking cumming?


I thought we agreed they were not highly-skilled actresses? If you want to get back to that, I submit that they all could not be so good as to fool so many experienced men.



Second, what definition of "love" are you using here? What behaviors do you observe that allow you to determine whether or not someone is "in love" - whether it be for an hour or forever?

I don't know. Let me go to a Hallmark store and call you back. What time is Dr. Phil on?

While I imagine there are true "Pretty Woman" stories involving professional girls in Rio, what I'm speaking of is more of a physical and emotional attraction. For instance, if someone were to show flash cards of different people in things to the girl, and she had to express her instant emotion. When certain guys come up, I believe her reaction would be genuine affection, not R$500 per vacation.



I have to say, I find it VERY hard to believe that women like Gabriela Leite or Bruna Surfistinha who are corageous enough to get up in front of God, their families and the whole country and say on public T.V. "Hey, I'm a *****. Deal with it," are somehow so "embarrassed" at cumming with clients...

I think it could be a power issue. Looking down on her johns as pathetic people who are providing her with a financial future sits better than accepting the fact that she develops affection and lust for many men who, by the way, also pay her.



But hey, I'm open minded. Convince me I'm wrong. Answering the two qeustions above will be a good step in that direction - or at least towards a decent discourse.


I don't really see that happening, although I appreciate you discussing it to the extent that you have. If you would allow yourself to believe that some of the girls develop strong emotional ties to their clients some of the time, and that some have orgasms some of the time, I would be happy all of the time!

FT

Sperto
11-18-05, 21:10
In any case, when she cums it makes me glad that she got some enjoyment out of an otherwise horrible job.FT
FT, I'm glad you bring enjoyment to their "horrible job". I only give them money, no orgasms. : )

If you would allow yourself to believe that some of the girls develop strong emotional ties to their clients some of the time, and that some have orgasms some of the time, I would be happy all of the time!
FT
FT, I'm sure the girls love you long time and have strong orgasms with you.
Macunaima, you got your own thread partly because you have a lot of interesting knowledge. Please, can we leave the orgasms and move on to other subjects?

Full Throttle
11-18-05, 22:24
FT, I'm glad you bring enjoyment to their "horrible job". I only give them money, no orgasms. : )

FT, I'm sure the girls love you long time and develop strong orgasms with you.
Macunaima, you got your own thread partly because you have a lot of interesting knowledge. Please, can we leave the orgasms and move on to other subjects?

I hope I didn't come across as Don Juan. That was not my intention nor the case.

I'm with you on moving on.

FT

Ezinho
11-19-05, 03:09
It's great if she enjoys the act, but I couldn't care less if she has an orgsam or not. I've no need to prove my manhood or sexual skills with a pro.

I agree with this 100%, and to be honest with you, before I found this board, I had no idea that guys worried this much about whether a pro cums or not. And bragging that you made a pro cum impresess no one; if you really want to impress people, try making a normal girl cum, you can't rely on your dollars or reais, just on your own sexual skills and looks.

Actually, I think it would be interesting if we had a poll on this to see how many guys on this board actually think a pro really cums with their clients, let say even 10% of the time. Maybe Jackson can set this up?

Oh, and one more thing:


By the way, I rarely have intercourse with the girls, as I enjoy other methods for enjoying intimacy.

Ummm....are you joking or is this statement for real? If you are serious, may I ask why you don't have intercourse with them? Even when you go to a terma and pay 200+ Reais, you dont have intercourse with the girl? Do they laugh at you?

Euro100
11-19-05, 04:29
Ezinho,

Here is the joke: President Clinton claimed not to have "sex with that women". He got BBBJ to completion from Monika L., but in his mind this did not count as intercourse.

euro

Full Throttle
11-20-05, 05:21
First, I'm not going to delete my post, because that is bad form. I hate it when people duck from a regrettable statement by erasing it. Still, I wish I didn't write it.

When I spoke of "my" evidence of girls getting off, I was trying to comply with Mac's strict code of scientific BS. Although I reported "my" experiences, I know full well that I'm just average in terms of bringing excitement to girls. He/she wouldn't even accept some of my information because it took place with girls from Argentina rather than Rio, so if I said anything about what I know "you guys" do, I would have been called on the carpet immediately. So, I'm positive most people are at least as good and probably better "lovers" than I. I am just trying to convince Mac that many of the pros like us a lot more than what they let on.

Second, I often enjoy a full hour of mutual massage, touching and oral pleasure. There is no hidden code, agenda, or fetish. I have just found over the years that I have enjoyed tantric sessions more than full-service sessions. In fact, if we don't have a synergy, or if the language barriers are too severe (Asia and Eastern Europe), it's better just to have sex. Otherwise, the level of effort/service seems better with the emphasis on the other aspects of the encounter.

Mac is a very interesting resource, and is capable of pushing all of us into some provocative subjects. I am definitely not one of them. I was simply trying to make a point that most everyone knows is true. But, I am seriously done. You guys are my buddies. Mac's thread is just a frivolous distraction.

FT

Piper1
11-20-05, 05:55
Well said FT - but no need to defend youself. The ISG site is, as you say, a frivolous diversion for most of us; not a rule-bound club (except for a few rules, like good grammer, speling and punctuation; ;) All good fun.

Cheers

Piper

Ezinho
11-20-05, 16:35
Second, I often enjoy a full hour of mutual massage, touching and oral pleasure. There is no hidden code, agenda, or fetish. I have just found over the years that I have enjoyed tantric sessions more than full-service sessions.

I hope you didn't take my post as an attack, it was a genuine question, I had never heard of someone going to an upscale terma and not geting FS, thats all. In the past, I too have just gotten a BBBJ, but only at the cheap casas in Centro where I'm only paying 20 reais for 20 minutes.

But when it comes down to it, its your money you're spending, you can do whatever you want once you get to the cabine as far as I'm concerned. Hell, watch her do your taxes for the hour, if thats what gets you off, more power to ya!

Liucio
11-20-05, 19:45
What makes a John a John?
What makes a Prostitute a Prostitute?
And does one respect the other?

Cunnilinguist
11-21-05, 03:04
macunaima,

first, i’d like to state that i’m glad that you are, and have managed to stay a part of wsg brazil forum. even though i may not always agree with your comments and statements, you manage to bring a level of intelligent, pragmatic, conversational depth and breadth to the topic of (rio de janeiro, specifically: copacabana) prostitution that gives additional value to this forum.

second, i wish you great success on your research and future publications of prostitution in rio.


ok, ft, two questions, then:

first, what's your technique for measurement of the female orgasm? what is the process you use that can determine, with a great degree of certainty (scientifically speaking, it would have to have more than an 80% certainty rate, otherwise that 20% occurence of orgasm you indicate would simply be lost in the noise), when a woman is cumming as oppsed to when a highly skilled actress is faking cumming?

second, what definition of "love" are you using here? what behaviors do you observe that allow you to determine whether or not someone is "in love" - whether it be for an hour or forever?

i think those two things need to be talked about and pegged out before we go any further, otherwise we risk talking about completely different things using the same words and getting mutually frustrated and pissed off.i will take a “crack” at answering these two questions:

1) the techniques for measurement of the physiological reactions of a female orgasm are quite simple; the two main components of the techniques are knowledge and touch. as with any skill set, as you gain more knowledge and experience, you become more sensitive and adept at measuring or “feeling with certainty” a woman’s orgasm.

the woman’s orgasmic physiological (physical) reaction is essentially uncontrolled rhythmic muscular spasms that occur inside and around the “vagina”(canal area), deep spasms also include the uterus. the muscular vaginal spasms (which lasts anywhere from 5 to 15 seconds total) radiate to the base of the abdominal area where the muscles also spasm and or contract in a same rhythmic fashion. from the abdominal, the other major muscle groups surrounding the abdominal area experience involuntary tense contractions.

the two main techniques for feeling these vaginal spasms are:
a. as the woman is about to have an orgasm take your two middle fingers (as you become experienced you only need your middle finger) and insert them into her vagina (the canal) take your other hand and place it at the base of her abdominal area (right above her pubic area). as the woman is experiencing her orgasm you will feel your finger (s) being squeezed, briefly, as each of these spasm itself lasts less than a second; these spasms occur in a very quick succession. your other hand will feel muscular spasms coming from the base of her abdomen.

b. the other way in measuring or “feeling” the woman’s vaginal spasms is to do everything above but instead of inserting your fingers you insert your penis, so during intercourse if she says she’s cumming and you don’t feel a quick squeezing of your penis from her vaginal canal then; she has not had an orgasm.

because these involuntary spasm are caused by the release of sexual tension (energy) buildup they (spasms) cannot be arbitrarily created (faked) by a woman. hence if there is no measurable release of energy in the form of spasms, there is no orgasm.

these techniques can be applied in many various ways without knowledge of your partner (that’s where experience comes in because your touch becomes more sensitive feeling spasms), also there are other physiological (physical) signs which result from the initial spasms.

screaming, thrashing, swearing and any other external actions are not measurable indicators or “signs” that a woman is having an orgasm. the only way to truly know is to measure from the physical source of where the orgasm begins….inside the vaginal canal.

2) the real cause for the behavior between the prostitutes and the johns is infatuation. high-end prostitution… where service and skill set are the currency and not time, both men and women can get swept up in the powerful physical and psychological pleasures that sex at that level can create. hence, attachments (bonding) can arise albeit for a brief time with one another.

here are links supporting my statements on female orgasms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/human_sexual_response_cycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/orgasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/fake_orgasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/g-spot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/female_ejaculation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/anal_orgasm
http://www.the-clitoris.com/f_html/fr_index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/infatuation


i have to say, i find it very hard to believe that women like gabriela leite or bruna surfistinha who are corageous enough to get up in front of god, their families and the whole country and say on public t.v. "hey, i'm a *****. deal with it," are somehow so "embarrassed" at cumming with clients that they never breathe a word about this to anyone and, in fact, construct elaborate and highly detailed lies in order to hide the fact that they are really enjoying sex with their clients, at least 20% of the time. all these women are very, very open about what they do and why and it seems to me that you'd have to make a very strong argument, based on something other than a hollywood film, that they were so embarassed about something that none of them ever talk about it. i know of no taboo in human experience that has that degree of compliance.

right now, occam's razor suggest that the most likely solution is that you are being fooled, more often than not. it's a less complicated theory that's and backed up by much more observable evidence, reported by the vast majority of women and men involved in this sort of thing.

but hey, i'm open minded. convince me i'm wrong. answering the two qeustions above will be a good step in that direction - or at least towards a decent discourse.


there is a well known saying in the business and professional world that: “one should never mix business with pleasure.”

the profession of prostitution is the only profession where its business is pleasure. now throughout prostitution women are taught never get distracted from pleasuring the customer, by accepting pleasure from him. reasons for this varied from an issue of time to safety. in some circle one can be seen as lacking professionalism if the prostitute gives as well as receives pleasure. there is no real pressure per se to hide the fact that one gets off with there clients, but society and peers see it differently.



the cunninglinguist

Cunnilinguist
11-21-05, 05:34
one question: why bother if a pro gets an orgasm or not? what's the big issue?

she will have sex with you because you pay for it. what's important is that the act is good and i get my orgasm. it's great if she enjoys the act, but i couldn't care less if she has an orgsam or not. i've no need to prove my manhood or sexual skills with a pro.

when a pro starts with her fake moaning i kindly ask her to shut up.
the issues are on many levels, but let’s stick between the pro and the client. yes, of course she’s going to have sex with you because paid her but that’s a given. the issue here is qos (quality of service) (or sex in our case :) ) in most cases when a pro senses that you are looking to please her and you have the skills in doing so, she will reciprocate your effort and actions. “returning the favor” can be anything from a more intense sexual session to spending more time, offering more times at bat or all of the above. if these additional gestures turns the overall sexual act from a good one to a great one wouldn’t that meet most men’s objectives??? plus, if she’s the gossiping type she will mention to her non-threatening peers your sexual prowlness. it’s a small world in the realm of prostitution.

now many men (myself included) enjoy the companionship and sexuality of women and enjoy the aspects of pleasing a woman as much as we enjoy being the recipient of pleasure.

now if your only concern is to bust your nut as you stated above, and the prospects of busting more nuts for nothing additional or at a minimum achieving a more intense nut is not enticing enough for you then that’s fine. we all have our different levels of pleasure and enjoyment.

now in regards to manhood and sexual skills, within the context of mainstream sex; a man’s sexual behavior doesn’t really deviate that much between a pro and non-pro. men are very much creatures of habit.

the cunninglinguist

Sperto
11-21-05, 08:23
...The issue here is QOS (Quality of Service) (or Sex in our case :) ) in most cases when a pro senses that you are looking to please her and you have the skills in doing so, she will reciprocate your effort and actions.
The CunningLinguist
Of course it's much nicer having sex when your partner enjoys the act as well. If you make the pro feel that she's special to you and you try to please her she will give you a better service. But if a pro gets an orgasm or not it's not of my concern.

Now if your only concern is to bust your nut as you stated above, and the prospects of busting more nuts for nothing additional or at a minimum achieving a more intense nut is not enticing enough for you then that’s fine. The CunningLinguist
I stated that my only concern is to bust my nut? LOL. Depends. If I go for a short time (20 min) at VM or Edifício Itatiaia my only concern will be to bust my nut and get my orgasm before the big mama rings the bell.

Now in regards to manhood and sexual skills, within the context of mainstream sex; a man’s sexual behavior doesn’t really deviate that much between a pro and non-pro.The CunningLinguist
Pro or a non-pro, to me it makes a big difference in several aspects. Just as I wouldn't make a fool of myself, buying roses to a pro or bringing her to a fancy restaurants, I almost never perform cunnilungus (reminds me of a name) on a pro. I rather not stick my tongue where some other guys had their dicks a couple of hours before.

Actually I'm tired of these discussions regarding pro's getting orgasms or not, but I felt the need to respond to your post. Cunlinguist, if you really want to please a pro then give her a big tip!

Macunaima
11-21-05, 14:05
On the orgasm issue generally...

It's not such a big deal to me, personally, but judging from the e-mails I've received from a small but vical segment of mongers and the reactions we've been seeing here, it's obviously very important to some guys. This is why it's worth talking about.

FT sez: "Only you can ask 3 questions for every one question."

ROFL! Yeah, that's a common complaint about anthropologists. "But what do you MEAN when you say X...?"


Well, with rergards to a woman's orgasm, again, all I have to say is this...

It doesn't take a good actress to fake one as they are so internal and subjective. In fact, I suspect only the really poor actresses will go into hystrionics: the good ones will just lay back, think of how they're gonna pay there bills, sigh a bit and squeeze their muscles.

Secondly, when you go down on a pro, you are giving her a very, very clear sign of what YOU want. It doesn't take a particularly smart woman to figure this one out and thus receive a cue for the show.

Finally, it's obvious that you enjoy this sort of thing, and you are paying to enjoy it. This means that you're about as far away from an objective observor as possible: you are in fact paying to consume an illusion.

Now, as I said before, I HAVE seen pros ocasionally claim that they cum with a client, but this is doen in a very off-handed and sort of "who'd-a-thunkit" kind of way. This isn't the style of women who are secretly admitting to violating a taboo. Nor IS THERE a taboo, as far as I can see. No woman has ever laughed, pointed at, or ridiculed a girl that's said this sort of thing, as far as I've seen, so where's the stigma? You say somehting like "Hey, guess what: I'm gay," and you'll get a reastion from most men. That's how stigmas work. But there's no reaction here, so what's the proof for stigma?

I CERTAINLY do not think pros cum 20% of the time, even if you go down on them and every pro I've ever interviewed, talked, to read has expressed amazment that their clients can be so ego-centric as to believe that they are with them for some other reason - any other reason - than cash.

So I'd say that the proof of this question pretty much hangs all to one side here. In order to prove different, you'd have to show some pretty spectacular proof which goes beyond the fact that pros seem to cum when you go down on them.

FT, ask any woman: one doesn't need to be a great actress to convince men that they are great in bed. It's one of the easiest things in the world. I shouldn't have used the term "highly skilled actress". My bad.

As for "love", it seems to me that you are confusing three things: physical attraction, feigned attraction and love. Now I myself don't have a good definition of "love", but hearing other people talk about it, I think we can agree on a few key components:

1) Love is demonstrated by some degree of self-sacrifice, not just interest in another person. You know someone is in love when they do something for you that really runs against their interests because they are confident that somewhere down the road, you'll do the same for them.

2) Love is exclusive. All respect due to the free love crowd, Brazilians at least are generally very possessive of those they love and pro after pro has told me that if you want to love a gringo "you can only have eyes for him". No Brazilian I know would recognize "one hour love" as "real love". That would be called "faking you love someone in order to manipulate them". Pros tend to believe in this definition as much as regular women.

3) While love involves physical and emotional attraction, this goes beyond simply seeing someone and falling in love. Even the "love at first sight" stories I hear from women do not talk about how the fell in love with how the guy looked. Typically, it's because of something he did or because of a rather long acquaintence - at least longer than an hour.

4) Finally, every Brazilian will tell you that, as a nation (and this is a huge generalization, but one I believe is worth making) we are cery, very good at manipulating the ILLUSION of love. Sit down some day and watch a couplke of hours of telenovela, FT, and you'll quickly see that one of the most often repeated dramas is "misplaced love": the person who loves someone who is cynically and cruel-heartedly using them. You may say this is a part of american soapd, too, and of course it is, but entire soap opera series are routinely based upon this question here.

Bottom-line: we're a very cordial country and while we may not be as "developed" as the U.s. in economic terms, we are HIGHLY developed in terms of social relations. After 20 years of life here, I'm constantly amazed at the subtly and power of Brazilian machiavellian manipulation of emotion. Perhaps "Machiavellian" isn't the right term. In any case, I feel - and I think most long-term residents of this country will agree with this - that there's NO WAY to conclusively tell what someone really thinks about you here and if the claim to love you after an hour - or even a week, for that matter - watch the fuck out. I know of no sophisticated, urbane and experienced Brazilian, male or female, who would ever see these kinds of claims with anything but deep suspicion, for all that they might smile at the person uttering them.

Macunaima
11-21-05, 14:32
cuni, that's some interesting, but commonly known, info on the female orgasm. but where do you get the idea that "these contractions can't be faked"? they can easily be faked and routinely are. furthermore, most guys and especially mongers aren't the type to sit there and objectively try to determine whether or not these contractions are occurring and if they are faked.

you also forget to mention that in many - perhaps most - women these contractions may in fact be too weak to notice without special equipment. kinsey and other sexologists have proven this one time and again. in fact, i'd say that if you can feel strong contractions, chances are they are being faked.

finally, you say "plus, if she’s the gossiping type she will mention to her non-threatening peers your sexual prowlness. it’s a small world in the realm of prostitution".

yes, indeed, it is a small world and prostitutes do love to gossip, as most people do. which is why it's all the more striking when you're a non-client or someone perceived as a fellow sex worker and you listen in and you don't ever hear any mentions of clients' prowess. i have never heard - or even heard reported - pros talk about hiow great their tricks were in bed unless there was a potential trick to hear them. one of my colleagues spends most of her time hanging out in the ladies room and drinking with pros and she reports that the conversations which occur are typically the exact opposite: women laughing about clients' hubris when they believe that they are with them for reasons of pleasure.

while bonding may indeed occur between pro and client, it rarely occurs on the pro's part simply because she's infatuated with her client's sexual prowess and her emotional need for him. what's my proof of this? aside from what the pros themselves say, i've never seen a pro fall in love with a client who wasn't giving her some concrete and obvious bennies. i have seen women - even pros - love guys who were total inappropriate assholes. in fact, this is often the case with pros. but rarely do these women fall in love with a total loser who's also a client: when they get involved in a project of turning a client into a boyfriend or husband, the tend to pick guys who have, shall we say, a very complete portfolio.

want to know who pros are typically loving when they're not invoved in this sort of project? some skinny, broke-ass malandro whose rent she pays. another typical lover, believe it or not, is another woman, a dyke of the style which we here in brazil call a "truck driver".

i said this to et once: if you think one of these women really "loves" you, stop giving her presents and paying for anything for a month. don't talk about marriage. 9 times out of 10, at least, she will be long gone before the month is over. now compare that sort of behavior to that of many of my non-pro female friends who've been hanging on for years in relationships that suck with guys who are losers and/or leaches.

Macunaima
11-21-05, 17:21
Going through Bruna's book, btw...

It's quite interesting.

First of all, Bruna's blog - which worked as sort of a propaganda institute for her when she was an active prostitute - reports something aorund 20% orgasms.

Her book, however, and the interviews which she's given AFTER retiring diminuish this number considerably, though not eliminating orgasms completely. Both the blog and the book show no shame in admitting to cumming with clients.

But it's obvious that when she was active and needed her clients' good will, she was reporting far many more orgasms on her blog than her diary notes actually show. You can see a copy of one of Bruna's pages at:

http://nominimo.ibest.com.br/notitia/servlet/newstorm.notitia.presentation.NavigationServlet?publicationCode=1&pageCode=54&textCode=16248&date=1113444060000&contentType=html

"ÑG" in this code, btw, means "não gozei": "I didn't cum".

Bruna specialized in "Girlfriend Experience" style programs and she was a very professional woman working of her own free will. She WANTED to have orgasms and her notes indicate frustration on occasion when she doesn't have them - which is most of the time. Even her blog - which again, functioned to drum up clients and so gave an overly rosey picture of the biz, as she herself admits - is full of notations like "He sucked me, but I didn't cum."

At the end of her career, Bruna was really wanting to get out and not enjoying ehr work. In fact - and this is really interesting - she says "Once you get to like someone, then you need to stop having programs with them. Otherwise you can't really respect them". She enjoyed some of the attention she got from guys, but she only fell in love with one client and that was because, according to her, they hardly fucked but spent most of their time talking together.

In short, here's a girl who probably represents a upper limit in terms of orgasms achieved by pros, in that she wanted them, worked towards having them, was very professional about her sexual activities, worked for herself, controlled her labor and was very pragmatic about getting in and out of the biz. And even her blog, which exagerates the positive and downplays the negative, doesn't show more than 20% orgasms. It's worth point out, too, that she did an average of 5 clients, 5 days a week for about two years at 200 reais a pop, yet her blog only reports a small faction of these guys and generally the most positive or funny experiences. I'm gonna comb through her blog completely one day and tally this shit up...

Cunnilinguist
11-22-05, 00:36
Of course it's much nicer having sex when your partner enjoys the act as well. If you make the pro feel that she's special to you and you try to please her she will give you a better service. But if a pro gets an orgasm or not it's not of my concern. Ok, Men who enjoy pleasuring women, non-pro or pro; enjoy the act, orgasms tend to be a result of such acts. Now of course, not all women cum and the reasons can be many; but men don’t get bent out of shape over it and we certainly won’t forego gettin’ our own nuts.


I stated that my only concern is to bust my nut? LOL. Depends. If I go for a short time (20 min) at VM or Edifício Itatiaia my only concern will be to bust my nut and get my orgasm before the big mama rings the bell. That was not a quote, but you did state with conviction that her reaching orgasm was not your concern. How would anyone interpret that to mean? Again, that is your right, you paid to have YOUR way with the pro, you paid her money. You want your nut, sounds logical to me. Now common sense and self preservation would dictate that if you only have 20 min. then you get your nut. We are in agreement here.


Pro or a non-pro, to me it makes a big difference in several aspects. Just as I wouldn't make a fool of myself, buying roses to a pro or bringing her to a fancy restaurants, I almost never perform cunnilungus (reminds me of a name) on a pro. I rather not stick my tongue where some other guys had their dicks a couple of hours before. But that is why we pay them in the first place. In lieu of paying for flowers or dinners. I don’t need to justify to you on my sexual habits as I would not expect you to justify your lack of them ;) .


Actually I'm tired of these discussions regarding pro's getting orgasms or not, but I felt the need to respond to your post. Cunlinguist, if you really want to please a pro then give her a big tip! Sperto,

Answer this: Has a pro ever reciprocated you AFTER giving her that big tip?

The CunningLinguist

Full Throttle
11-22-05, 04:17
Going through Bruna's book, btw...

First of all, Bruna's blog - which worked as sort of a propaganda institute for her when she was an active prostitute - reports something aorund 20% orgasms.

And I just came up with that number off the top of my head!

That should teach you to doubt me...

Full Throttle
11-22-05, 05:56
In short, here's a girl who probably represents a upper limit in terms of orgasms achieved by pros, in that she wanted them, worked towards having them, was very professional about her sexual activities, worked for herself, controlled her labor and was very pragmatic about getting in and out of the biz....

If one of "us" were to make this statement, YOU would jump down our unscientific throats.


DIFFERENT SUBJECT

There's another thing you've mentioned twice that I don't agree with. I don't think we Americans have some sort of exploded view of the Brazilian girls' appetite for sex. Rather, I think we rightly believe that the view of sex in much of the world is farther evolved than ours. Whether the prevailing attitude towards it is a result of religion, our "puritan" heritage, or what, the fact is we have screwed up the notion of intimacy.

So, I wonder if guys really think Brazilian girls are "super sexual" or just comfortable with sexuality?

Euro100
11-23-05, 01:48
Rather, I think we rightly believe that the view of sex in much of the world is farther evolved than ours. Whether the prevailing attitude towards it is a result of religion, our "puritan" heritage, or what, the fact is we have screwed up the notion of intimacy.

So, I wonder if guys really think Brazilian girls are "super sexual" or just comfortable with sexuality?
FT, ditto to that. Remember our history: the Mayflower was loaded up with all of the people who were too nuts about religion to keep them in England; and England is rather puritan to start with. Brazilians, woman AND MEN, on average are just more comfortable with theri sexuality than we are. The US is just overloaded with too many people who want to tell other people what to do, or else they will go to hell.

By the way, it's not the Caucasian race that is at fault. The Australians are way different in their attitudes. Maybe it's because they started as a prison colony instead of a refuge for religous nutcases.

;)

Macunaima
11-23-05, 16:44
FT, why would anyone call that statement I made "unscientific"? It's an accurate description of ONE woman's experience, as related by herself in multiple forums. It's sociological aspect, such as they are, are confirmed by multiple data sources regarding other women's experiences in the sex market. Hell, if anyone were to make that statement it'd be ultimately resonable.


What's "unscientific" is the presumption that you can tell with a great degree of certainty that a significant portion of the women you are are reaching orgasm, especially when you are paying them to play that role. There's a difference between understanding that no one is ever completely neutral or objective and actively COURTING unobjectivity. The first is good science, the second bad.

You ask an interesting question...

"I don't think we Americans have some sort of exploded view of the Brazilian girls' appetite for sex. Rather, I think we rightly believe that the view of sex in much of the world is farther evolved than ours."

Unfortunately, if sex has "evolved" anywhere in the world, it's the in the U.S. Take any indicator you like and you'll find that the States far outstrips most of the rest of the world. FT, you guys are by and large taking prostitutes on Copacabana and urban carioca party girls as the "norm" for Brazilian female sexuality and it just isn't.

Most responsible comparative sex studies have shown that, if anything, Brazilian women on the whole have LESS satisfying sex lives than American women. There's nothing like conclusive data on this, however.

Like it or not, and Bush notwithstanding, puritans are now a MINORITY in the U.S. And why you think the Mayflower would play such an important role in constructing American sexuality while overlooking the conservative Catholic Churches' MASSIVE influence in Brazil is beyond me. You may not know this, but we still have RELIGIOUS censorship in this country. The Catholic Church is still this nation's number one landholder. While I agree that Puritanism may have fucked some aspects of the U.S up, it's utopian in the extreme to believe that Catholicism hasn't played a similar role here.

Macunaima
11-23-05, 16:57
Here's another thing, FT. You're always refering to your pragmatic experiences with women here in Brazil. OK, fine.

But does it occur to you that after living here for 20 years as a highly sexually active guy that I might have a slightly larger fund of practical examples than you? And with a much wider selection of women, to boot?

I mean, if we're going to make pragmaticism the base of all "real" knowledge, then I think I can say that based upon my pragmatic experiences alone I know a hell of a lot about how the average, non-pro Brazilian woman thinks.

Now, I myself wouldn't make this argument because pragmaticism ISN'T a good base for social science - too many unconscious prejudices are apt to get in the way. But it seems to me odd that you're all the time refering to your experiences as the final word on the topic while mine supposedly mean nothing at all.

Umgman
11-23-05, 22:53
that you are using 'pragmatism' in the right context. It has more to do with acting in a practical fashion.

Macunaima
11-23-05, 23:17
I'm thinking more in terms of "pragmaticism" as a philosophical stance - as in "American pragmaticism". The "show me" philosophy.

Umgman
11-24-05, 04:39
Peirce, Charles Sanders pronounced purs, (1839-1914), was an American philosopher. He helped lead a philosophical movement called pragmatism. Peirce, who was probably the foremost logician of his time, pioneered in the development of mathematical logic. In addition, Peirce helped develop semiotics, the study of how human beings use various signs and symbols, including words.
Peirce discussed the basic ideas of his pragmatism in an essay called "How to Make Our Ideas Clear" (1878). To understand an idea, he declared, we must consider the behavior of objects to which the idea refers. For example, if we say that a diamond is "hard," we should want to know what this idea means. Therefore, we should find out what a diamond can do--such as scratch a piece of glass without being scratched itself. We understand what we mean by a diamond if we know what it does do, could do, and might do under various circumstances. The meaning of an object, according to Peirce, includes how we are likely to behave in its presence.
Like other pragmatists, Peirce wanted to connect thought and action. He believed that our thoughts should produce beliefs upon which we can act confidently. If we are in doubt, we hesitate to act. Doubt forces us to inquire into things until we have a belief. If we are not able to clear up our doubts with further inquiry, we must act on the belief most likely to be true.
Peirce was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts. His father, the famous mathematician Benjamin Peirce, introduced him to the study of science and philosophy. Peirce graduated from Harvard University in 1859 and did scientific work for the United States Coast Survey from 1861 to 1891. These scientific studies stimulated his interest in philosophy. During his career, Charles Peirce also expressed original ideas about evolution, the role of chance in the universe, the human mind, and the reality of God.
Peirce did not present his philosophy in any organized fashion, and so he received little recognition during his lifetime. Years after his death, however, several philosophers published Peirce's works in eight volumes called The Collected Papers of Charles Sanders Peirce.

From World Book Online

Appleone
11-24-05, 19:32
To all you Americans out there! Last night's date is still asleep in the bedroom, I've just finished putting together the brioche crusted, mushroom stuffed whole salmon that will substitute for the turkey this year, and am taking a break reading the Macunaima thread.

The discussion of sexuality of Brasilian vs American women is interesting, but may suffer from a failure to define terms (thanks, Umgman, for the background on "pragmatism," by the way). I'd agree with Mac that the US is probably the easiest place in the world to meet non-pro women whose sexual behavior is more like the male stereotype: they see a cute guy, want to jump into bed with him immediately, and act on their impulse. Admittedly, I live in the San Francisco area, which is probably about as representative of America as Rio is of Brasil. Still, in Rio I seldom see a non-pro as willing as the women here in America to engage in casual sex on a moment's impulse.

On the other hand, IMHO the brasilieras do a hell of a lot better job when they do go to bed with a guy, and are a lot more fun to flirt with beforehand. They come across as more sexually sophisticated than "liberated" American females, who seem to think that all they should have to do to attract a guy is drop their panties. Brasilian women seem to understand that sex is more than just screwing -- that there is a whole range of words, actions, body language that accentuate the experience. Personally, to me there is no comparison in the quality of sex with brasilieras versus Americans, although perhaps that just reflects my frustrations with listening for the 1000th time after sex to the same basic litany of problems in her life from yet another American woman who believes her situation is unique.

Which is a long winded way of saying that I agree (based on experiences in Rio, Foz Iguazu, and Sao Paulo) that Brasilian women are more evolved sexually -- they are past the point of thinking being sexually liberated is defined by racking up the body count, and instead are more subtle, sensuous, and discriminating in how they approach sexual relationships. This is certainly true among non-pros in both countries; and although my pro experience is limited to Brasil, I'd wager it is even more true among the more successful pros.

Macunaima
11-24-05, 20:13
Yep, that's the beastie. :-)

Sal Dali
11-26-05, 03:41
Let me start out by saying that I have been on of Mac's detractors. I have been of the opinion that his commentary belonged in it's own area. I remain of that opinion. In fact, I described him as a serial antagonist and suggested that he be limited to his own thread. However . . .

during my last trip to Rio, directly due to Mac's postings, I spent more time talking to the women I was with. Much more. I asked more questions and listened longer. As a result of having read Mac's postings, I was able to talk to them with some improved understanding of their circumstances, had an easier time picking up on the systematic lies they told (and why), and was more sensitive to their stories. Overall, it was a better experience (I think for them and for me).

So, with that said, I'm glad Mac's available to post in this thread and think that his material made my last visit much more interesting.

Thanks.

SD

Umgman
11-26-05, 07:08
so what I'm trying to say is that I WAS WRONG about Mac being a serial detractor. I guess I realize that sometimes antagonism is warranted if I have a closed minded or tunnel vision mindset. Basically, I thought that anytime someone corrected me, or disagreed with me it was an attack. When I stop to think about how the info that Mac has given me has allowed me to better relate to the garotas I am having relationships with, I guess sometimes a counterpoint attitude can expand my understanding. That is if I have the maturity to open myself to it.

Anyway, Mac, I LOVE YOU, MAN!!!

Sal Dali

(the above is a dramatization. It was composed be a drunk monger, and should be regarded as incendiary dialogue by all who read it.)

Full Throttle
11-26-05, 07:51
Here's another thing, FT. You're always refering to your pragmatic experiences with women here in Brazil. OK, fine.

But does it occur to you that after living here for 20 years as a highly sexually active guy that I might have a slightly larger fund of practical examples than you? And with a much wider selection of women, to boot?

I mean, if we're going to make pragmaticism the base of all "real" knowledge, then I think I can say that based upon my pragmatic experiences alone I know a hell of a lot about how the average, non-pro Brazilian woman thinks.

Now, I myself wouldn't make this argument because pragmaticism ISN'T a good base for social science - too many unconscious prejudices are apt to get in the way. But it seems to me odd that you're all the time refering to your experiences as the final word on the topic while mine supposedly mean nothing at all.

I'm sorry. I have absolutely no idea what you were referring to in this post or the previous one, for the most part.

1. There is no way I would ever get the final word in a discussion with you.

2. I thought you were a female, not that there is anything wrong with that. Either way, I don't pretend to have more answers than you. Heck, you're the one doing the research.

3. I got into this whole orgasm discussion long after it started because I thought it was interesting and I thought that, among your many insightful views, you were off on that one.

4. I only used myself as an example because you get mad at people (me) when they (I) resort to heresey.

5. Where did this "pragmatic" thing come in. Did I start it? They didn't teach me that in my California public institution.

6. Perhaps we're wrong that Brazilian women have a more enlightened, comfortable view of sex. My piont though, was that I think that impression better characterizes our view of Brazilian girls than one that considers them super-human sexual entities.

7. When you said that Bruna probably represented the high side of orgasms achieved by working girls because she wanted them, I wondered if that was really true. Aren't there millions of women dying to have more orgasms but can't achieve them while others have spontaneous ones in the middle of the day? Or are they faking, too?

8. While I enjoy your views on all of these subjects, and appreciate your attempt to invoke scientific study into all of this, it doesn't mean that I, or anyone else here, will. I never said that the body of my experiences in combination with the personal and 'board' friends I have would stand up to scientific scrutiny. My hypothesis' are different than yours, but, the difference is, I don't have to present scientific studies to validate some anthropological study. I'll just share my opinion and how I arrive at it. Hopefully, one day you'll be able to scientifically prove that I'm right.

Sal Dali
11-27-05, 01:38
Umgman . .. really, you should never go back to that crack dealer. He's selling you talc . . . and I think you're allergic.

SD



so what I'm trying to say is that I WAS WRONG about Mac being a serial detractor. I guess I realize that sometimes antagonism is warranted if I have a closed minded or tunnel vision mindset. Basically, I thought that anytime someone corrected me, or disagreed with me it was an attack. When I stop to think about how the info that Mac has given me has allowed me to better relate to the garotas I am having relationships with, I guess sometimes a counterpoint attitude can expand my understanding. That is if I have the maturity to open myself to it.

Anyway, Mac, I LOVE YOU, MAN!!!

Sal Dali

(the above is a dramatization. It was composed be a drunk monger, and should be regarded as incendiary dialogue by all who read it.)

Umgman
11-27-05, 07:10
-----agreed.

Macunaima
11-29-05, 22:27
Regarding whether or not Brazilian women are more "evolved" sexually...

There's such a wide variety of women here and in the States that almost nothing can be said about them as a collectivity in comparison. I've had good lovers and bad lovers, boring lovers and imaginative lovers, women who bitched about men and their lives in general and women who didn't in BOTH countries. "Brazilian" or "American" just isn't any guarantee of quality.

Glad this thread's been of service, Sal.

FT, if you thought I was a woman, that was because you definitely CHOSE to. Hell, I never said one thing one way or the other, but I think it's fairly damned obvious what sex I am.

As for getting mad at you when you "resorted to heresy", excuse me, but please point that instance out, as I don't recall ever being mad at you.

Now you ask...

"Aren't there millions of women dying to have more orgasms but can't achieve them while others have spontaneous ones in the middle of the day? Or are they faking, too?"

The best research out there indicates that the first group outnumbers the second by a very, very wide margin. So it's not a case of "6 of one, half a dozen of the other".

Full Throttle
11-30-05, 05:28
Hey Mac,

Welcome back to your thread! Hope T-Day weekend was pleasant. I've never seen turkey at a Churascuria, but, then again, I don't know what half the cuts are, anyway. I suspect I don't want to.

Anyway, I could care less what sex you are. If you were a woman, you're clearly not available for money, so I would have little interest. If you're a guy, I wouldn't need to be shown up on the dance floor by a former exotic dancer.

So, what do you think Rio will be like in 10 years from a mongering point of view? Do you think the move afoot has teeth, or is the current political climate transitory? If Rio became effectively closed to sex tourism (i.e. travel solely for sexual entertainment), would this be good or bad?

If you were the president Brazil, would you support eliminating prostitution? Regulating it more? Of all the countries in the world, which do you think has the healthiest policies regarding prostitution?

FT

Macunaima
12-01-05, 00:05
I actually dance fer shit, FT. You don't need to be a good dancer to do male striptease: you just need to know how to play a role...

I think Brazil has damned good policies regarding prostitution, actually. We just need to follow the laws we have. If I were prez, I'd push Gabeira's proposal that prostitute be officially recognized as a job category through Congress. I'd help set up co-ops and unions, to reduce the role of the pimp. I'd organize a special, cheap health care plan for pros. I'd also organize a Federal savings and loan plan for the ones who want to get out of the biz.

But mostly, I'd just fight to see that the current lawas are actually followed. They're good laws.

I don't think the current withc hunt will have much long term effect, but I think Brazil is begining a phase of conservative reaction to some of the excesses of the last twenty years, to things might get slightly nasty in the immediate future. But with 2 centuries of sexual tourism (of sorts) behind us, I highly doubt much will change in the long run.

Macunaima
12-04-05, 16:59
the carioca city police recently conducted two anti-prostitution blitzes under the rubric of "protecting our children from sexual exploitation". "princesa i" was undertaken in copacabana and the second op went down in barra da tijuca - only princesa ii made the papers, however, so i have little news to report regarding the copacabana op. anyone who has any, please contact me or post here.

in neither op was a single ****d prostitute encountered. in other words, the declared purpose of these blitzes was a complete bust. no child prostitutes were found in spite of 4 months of investigative activity by the police.

in the barra-centered princesa ii, however, 16 people were arrested for the crime of "exploitation of prostitution" and a further 40 were "detained" (read "arrested and harassed without charges actually being filed") for being prostitutes, ostensibly for the purpose of inducing these women to testify against the other 16.

once again - not that it should be any suprise by now - we see the rio cops using "protection of children" (whom they apparently can't find, no matter how hard they try) as an excuse to crack down on prostitution. given that princesa i didn't even make the papers, i'm betting that they turned up an even bigger goose-egg in copa, where the sex trade has recently been making every effort to card suspiciously young-looking girls and keep any pimps in the shadows. since barra has a more call-girl orientated market (and the report says that the cops simply followed up on ads in papers in order to "break" these prostitution rings - they obviously were very clandestine and hard to infiltrate, huh?), it was apparently more "productive" from a repression standpoint because call girls have to operate with a minimum of infrastructure - phone answerers and agents and the like - which are easily legally classifiable as pimps.

it also goes without saying that the barra market is massively brazilian orientated.

so in spite of all the rhetoric against foreign sex tourists, the three main blitzes of the spring - vila mimosa, princesa i and princesa ii - have only turned up significant numbers of busts when they were directed against the brazilian sexual market.

no big suprise there, unless you buy the federal government's rhetoric that gringos are the source of all evil in this industry.

Bango Cheito
12-04-05, 23:24
have to disagree with you on catholics and protestants being equally repressive sexually, mac. there is a big difference in that issue. i'm talking as a person who was raised protestant and later converted to catholicism, (now floating around in the abyss somewhere) also as a person who has fucked many women of all religions.

catholics have always had a very restrictive view of what is ok and what is not between the sheets, but many fundamentalist sects take that a lot further. in most english speaking socities our traditions were very anti-sexual in all of its forms; we viewed sex as a necessary evil to be done in the least enjoyable possible manner, and only for procreation.

to this day, many americans (and canadians) have an underlying sense of shame about their bodies, which is something that just does not exist anywhere in latin america. even in very socially conservative countries like the dominican republic or el salvador, the attitudes towards oral sex and towards ejactulation, for example, are night and day! you would be hard pressed to find a girl raised in latin america with what is actually quite a common attitude in north america - 'you actually want me to put my mouth on that thing???"

granted, north america may on average be more tolerant of homosexuality and bisexuality, but i'd have to say from my experience that latin girls are much more willing to be sexually deviant in most other areas, including [CodeWord117] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord117), anal sex, bdsm, role-playing etc. here is where a lot of regional differences come into play however. for example in the dr, you will find very few women, pro or non, who are willing to go anywhere beyond basic fuck-and-suck, or to even touch another woman in a remotely sexual fashion. in general i think that south american women are more willing to experiment than caribbean or north americans are. just take a look at mfxvideo.com.br and compare it with maxhardcore.com or with khan tusion or any of the hardest core american porn. mfx may sell all over but i'm willing to bet their corner market is still in br!

of course, the more urban the environment, the more that type of experimentation becomes acceptable, but that is something true of any nation on the planet!

Macunaima
12-06-05, 12:10
Bango, I agree with you that there are differences between protestantism and catholicism but the problem is that you seem to want to take the attitudes of the most extreme protestant sects and place these as a "norm" against "middle of the road" catholicism. There are HUGE differences within the catholic tradition and Brazilian catholicism - beset as it has been throughout its history by african and indigenous religiosity - has been notoriously conservative. I don't know about El Salvador, but I can think of PLENTY of places in Brazil where women would have the same attitude regarding oral sex as you describe. And speaking from my own personal experience, I've never had a north american woman tell me she wasn't willing to have oral sex - especially if I was willing to go down on her.

As for comparing porn... C'mon, man! Porn is staged. It has nothing to do with what's considered normative secual behavior in countries. In fact, to the small degree that it does, it usually does in reverse fashion: a lot of the most extreme porn has historically been produced by the most sexually oppressed countries. But comparing porn and trying to see how that applies to people's everyday sexual lives is lioke comparing wrestling videos and trying to use that as a basis for understanding how a given people actually fights. MFX is able to do more hardcore porn here simply because the market is less regulated, not because their work represents common Brazilian sexual attitudes.

Here's a question: how much of your sexual experience in Brazil, say, has been with women outside of the sex industry as opposed to in the U.S. and Canada?

Macunaima
12-06-05, 12:12
Davida is sponsoring a prostitutes' bloco for Carnaval and practice is now underway in Praça Tiradentes on R. Leopoldina every Monday evening. The name of the bloco os "Prazeres Davida" and it will parade on Carnaval mSaturday, I believe. More info as I get it.

Bango Cheito
12-06-05, 21:39
I'll be honest, IN BRAZIL I have only had pros. I have had Brazilian women non-pros, but they were all expats living here 'up North'.

MFX movies may be partially or completely coreographed for all we know, but they have a target market somewhere who WANTS to see things the way they come out on video. I assert that their core audience is Brazilian, although lately they have been expanding for international markets. When they started they were in Portuguese only, so that says something! And if people are buying that shit and the company is doing well, that means there is some niche of the population into that sort of thing. Nothing MFX does in Brazil is specifically illegal in the USA either. The industry here practises an enormous (and unnecessary IMO) amount of self-censorship.

As for 'extreme' sects of Protestantism, I was referring to the MAINSTREAM! Extreme fundamentalist Xtians go to well, much more drastic extremes than that. Tying people to the bed when they go to sleep so that they can't masturbate, not allowing kids to even SPEAK to people outside their little sect, or often even keeping them locked up in their rooms! Etc, etc, etc. I have found the kind of repression where people are scared to so much as go down on each other to be the norm in Canada and the US, not the exception to the rule. And my own personal experience comes from bar sluts and groupies more than anything else! As a matter of fact, it has been my experience that often people who are no longer Xtians a lot of times still THINK like they are, and carry that repression around!

Not for one minute denying that it exists in Brazil, but I would be willing to bet that it is confined more to rural areas there. Like I said, my experience with Brazilian non-pros is with expats, but among them they batted 1.000 for anal and oral sex. Among US/Canada girls it was maybe 10% of them for anal, and most of that 10% did it but didn't enjoy it.

As for what pros will or will not do in Brazil vs the US or Canada, it's not even worth talking about.

As another example of cultural differences between countries, take the Dominican Republic. The DR has porn available on tapes, on satellite and even on cable, BUT all the girl/girl scenes are edited out of all the porn tapes. I thought it was some old witch in a government censorship office at first but I was wrong!!! Enquiring on the subject, I was told on many different occasions by people that 'we like it this way, we think women should be with men only, not other women.' Once again, this wasn't exactly archbishops telling me this, this was ordinary working-class people who considered themselves middle-of-the-road, even one drug dealer and a few female pros said the same fucking thing!!!

Macunaima
12-07-05, 14:10
mfx's core audience may well indeed be brazilian. but again, what porn audiences consume and what they do in their own sex lives is notoriously different. study after study has proven that the fantasies of porn are not generally undertaken in real life. and even if they were, i think we can pretty much agree that mfx's core audience is male, so what its productions have to do with female sexual behavior - even if we presumed that porn reflects the normative sexual behavior of its consumers - is unclear to me.

now, you say "i have found the kind of repression where people are scared to so much as go down on each other to be the norm in canada and the us, not the exception to the rule." but i dunno, man. my personal experience with american women - which is probably much larger than yours with brazilian women of the non-pro variety - indicates just the opposite. you say "like i said, my experience with brazilian non-pros is with expats, but among them they batted 1.000 for anal and oral sex." well, i batted 1.000 with the 50 odd american women i've had sex with for oral sex. anal i'm willing to believe is more prevalent down here, as it's a bit of a national obsession. that said, you yanks have a bit of an obsession when it comes to oral. i've never had any trouble getting head from american women, but several brazilian women i've been with don't like it. hell, i've even been with several brazilian women who don't like receiving oral sex. i've never had a yank say "no, don't go down on me. it's icky..."

btw, while many - perhaps most - brazilian women will do anal, they typically will not do it unless they are pros or unless they feel that the guy is really going to stay with them and then, more often than not, it's used as a way of catering to men's desires and not as an expression of what the women wanted to do. i'm not a big fan of anal, myself, and i can only think of two women - both brazilian - who insisted on doing it and even then, it was more of sort of a "pro-forma" thing. in brazilian sexual mythology, "dar o cú" is a mark of extreme domination and it's not typically something girls do on a first date, unless they're dating professionally. enjoyment is completely secondary for this sort of thing and it's been my experience that most women - willing or not - simply don't develop a taste for it, either here or elsewhere.

furthermore, i was brought up lutheran and i'm certainly no more xexually repressed than most of the catholics i grew up around.

as for repression being confined to rural areas here, in that you are correct, if you also include small towns (say less than a million people) in that appraisal. but then again, the vast majority of brazilians live in communities of less than a million people. copacabana and av. augusta in são paulo are exceptions to the rule here, not the norm. judging brazil based on experiences in copacabana is like judging the u.s. based on experiences along the hollywood strip.

"as for what pros will or will not do in brazil vs the us or canada, it's not even worth talking about."

this has little to do with culture and a lot to do with price. look, a typical 1st class (actually 2nd class, but that's another story) trick here will run you about a month's minimum wage, correct? furthermore, even minimum wage jobs here are hard to find. most of brazil actually makes a sub-minimum wage so the real market value of that trick, in terms of the economic culture within which it's embedded, is probably twice what that wage would indicate. so, minimum wage in the u.s. is what, 5 bucks an hour? times 160, that gives you 800. double that now to account for the economic disparities between brazil and the u.s. and now tell me: do you think that if you were willing to pay between 1000 and 1500 dollars a trick in the u.s., you'd find women willing to give things like bbjs and anal and [CodeWord117] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord117)?

or to put it another way, what do you want to bet that when teddy kennedy and pat robertson pay for their hired sexual help, they get a level of service that's similar to what you get on copa?

it seems to me that the difference you're seeing is that here you're in a pretty up-scale prostitution market while in the u.s. and canada, you're in a lower scale market.

you're confusing economics with sexual culture, here. a pro will pretty much do anything, if the price goes up high enough.

Bango Cheito
12-08-05, 01:43
I have had women of many different nationalities and backgrounds and many of them including Americans Canadians AND Latinas of all stripes have the issue of not wanting men to go down on them.

As far as higher paid pros being willing to do anything, I have never seen that correlation nor heard of it. To the best of my knowledge, higher paid girls have just as many limits as to what they will do as lower paid ones do. Of course, all those limits are really soft limits and envelopes can get pushed in some situations so it's really hard to make a good conclusion regarding that.

I always thought Brazil was one of the more urban nations on Earth. It certainly has the highest number of cities with over 1 million people.

The other thing is that your info in the US is maybe a little out of date. For example, if you go cruising the Sunset Strip looking for pussy in this day and age you are more likely to get your car impounded than to get laid. All you have to do is check out the NYC and LA sections of this same forum to see how much things have changed in the past several years! I'm sure this is part of the reason people are flying all over Latin America to look for pussy now!

Bango Cheito
12-08-05, 01:45
BTW, Luteran is a very moderate branch of Xtianity. Most of the USA is Baptist or Pentecostal.

Macunaima
12-09-05, 20:15
Most of the U.S. is Pentecostal or Baptist, BC? Where'd you get that particular fact from? It sounds like a wild exageration to me...

Brazil has a lot of cities above a million people, yes, but the VAST majority of those are quite new and some of them are nothing more than the back-country moved more-or-less by economic force majeur into the outskirts of the main urban areas. These places are not know for the liberality in matters sexual.

Uninfun
12-10-05, 01:15
Mac,

Hope all is going well. I may be back in Brasil in March next year and we can grab another beer.

I have a question though. I understand brazilian banks are paying 8-11% interest per year. Is this true, and what are the tax consequences if a forigner puts 10k into a brazilian bank. Is the interest taxable when removed by brasilian govt., and is a CPF? number nec? Lastly, as these interest type accounts typical savings accounts?

Also- what is up with Help? Is it going to be closed as was rumored?

Bango Cheito
12-10-05, 07:54
I checked. Apparently the US is almost 25% CATHOLIC! Imagine that!

But of course that is way up in the past 20 years due to massive arrivals of Catholics from other shores.

Not counting the Catholics, the next biggest group are the Baptists, Followed by Methodist, Lutheran, and THEN Pentecostal, then Anglican (Episcopalian).
BUT those statistics are notoriously unreliable, as each site I visited spelled out in huge disclaimers. I have a feeling there are a LOT more Pentecostals than the mere 2% shown in statistics. It is also the only sect of Xtianity that is still actually GROWING.

Getting back to our sheep, I think we could both agree that smaller cities and towns and rural areas In the US Canada OR Brazil are not exactly havens for libertines like us :P

Tell me, in the scope of your research, have you had any indication that the higher paid pros are more willing to engage in kinky behavior with clients? To the best of my knowledge this is definitely not the case in the USA. But I don't think the inverse is true either. To me it seems to depend on the individual in question and her/his relationship with the client.

Among non-pros, by my experience, girls in DR are less likely to engage in kinky behavior than US or Canadian girls, but girls in Colombia are MORE likely, as are expats from most Latin American countries living up here!

Macunaima
12-10-05, 12:59
Actually, I'm probably more of a libertarian than a libertine. Or an anarchist. I'm pretty "meat and potatoes" in my sexual preferrences.

But one thing that has ALWAYS got my dander up is the idea that the State should regulate what goes on between two consenting adults in the privacy of their own bedroom. Or a rented motel room, as the case may be.

I don't think there's a direct correlation between money and kink, but this is how I see it...

The more expensive Copa girls are actually paid more in order to suss out what clients want, as well as providing a more "girlfriend-like" experience. Girls in places like Vila Mimosa are there for wham, bam, thank you ma'am sex and that's that. Anything not stipulated doesn't happen. I think the first group is much more likely to give "full-service" or something like it because their whole game (or at least that of some of them) is giving the illusion of reciprocity and experimentation can easily be worked into that.

So while it's not a direct correlation, I think one's more likely to get better service - however one defines that - out of Copa girls who are a more upscale market.

Bango Cheito
12-11-05, 21:22
That is part of the charm of Brazil to me. The whole terma environment is awesome for someone to go in. You have complete privacy and every comfort you could imagine. Nowhere in the US will you EVER have that kind of setup. Not even the filthiest of the filthy rich here enjoy that!

To me just the fact that they EXIST speaks volumes about the mentality down there compared to up here. Nothing like being able to take a shower after instead of having to clean up with baby wipes and Purell!

Macunaima
12-17-05, 14:08
There are PLENTY of people here who would close down the termas if they could, BC.

The existence of termas has more to do with a biref window of opportunity which we are currently passing through, historically speaking, in my view. I don't think they reflect on Brazil's cultural views regarding sexuality very well.

Sunset Strip
12-18-05, 00:44
Hey Mac,

Can you explain a little more why you do not think thermas reflect Brazilian views of sexuality?
And do you think those who would close thermas have more against those thermas catering to estrangeros or just thermas in general?

Also, I was wondering if Brazilians in general differentiate between relationships between gringos and those pay-as-you-pay type relationships between Brazilians. (I can explain better what I mean, but I think you will get my point).


TJ

Bango Cheito
12-19-05, 06:20
How long have the thermas been around anyways? I have a friend who availed himself of them back in 1983 and they were in full swing then!

If this is a window, I say lets get a sledgehammer and knock down as much as we can of the wall!!

Macunaima
12-20-05, 14:08
Termas represent Brazilian views on sexuality about as well as the American porn industry represents American views on sexuality. Now most of the guys posting here have been spending alot of time talking about how things are so "puritan" in the U.S. Nevertheless, the States produces most of the world's high-quality porn.

Pretty contradictory, huh? But that's the way it goes with culture: repression tends to generate a ghetto specializing in providing the opposite. The Nazis had some really blow out orgies, I hear...

So the termas are the "flip side" or "underground" of what's actually a pretty neurotic and repressive "normal" sexual culture. Gringos are impressed with Brazilian "sensuality" because our neuroses happen to be different from their neuroses. Gringos are incredibly body conscious and they tend to see people who aren't as "more liberated". But Brazilians are hung up on sex in any number of other, unliberating ways, which normally fall right off the gringo radar screen unless said gringo has been here awhile.

Sexual jealousy, possessiveness, questions of "protecting one's honor" and the madonna/***** complex are all typically deeply ingrained Brazilian sexual neuroses. What the termas are is sort of a male-orientated escape from the strictures of normal sexual/affective conduct. They are NOT considered to be the epitomy of normal sexual/affective conduct but the opposite of it.

Thus, using the way men and women behave in a termas as a "base-line" for understanding Brazilian sexuality is about as unproductive as using a stag party in 1970s Vegas as the baseline for a similar understanding of U.S. sexuality.

"Also, I was wondering if Brazilians in general differentiate between relationships between gringos and those pay-as-you-pay type relationships between Brazilians. (I can explain better what I mean, but I think you will get my point)."

Sorry, TJ, I really didn't get that. "Relationships between gringos...?" Brazilians don't really think much about what gringos do with each other in terms of sex and love, but I think you mean something else.

No one I've talked to knows when the termas started, BC, but the indications I get are the 1970s.

A bigger question, for me, is when and how the "zona" serving foreigners moved from Lapa to Copacabana. It was some time after WW2 and before the 1970s, but I don't know any more details than that. The birth of termas may possibly be caught up in this shift, somehow.

Sunset Strip
12-20-05, 20:32
I actually meant to say, relationships between gringos and brazilian women versus pay-as-you-go between two Brazilians. I was typing fast because I was at work and did not have time to proof better.

What I was wondering was as a estrangero whether people see my relationships as somehow seedy, while Brailizian men who visit thermas are somehow less seedy. As you know sex clubs did not originate with tourists specifically in mind. As you stated it may be that the clubs in Brazil were orginally more of an escape fro normal Brazilian sexual life, just as watching porn is in the US (and I live in the heart of the US porn industry--CA). In the US, a VERY high percentage of Christians watch porn!

But of course Americans (North?) tend to think of other people as less than normal or sexually liberated or even deviant! So I was wondering if Brazilians in general think that gringos are perverts for paying for sex, but then when their own people go to thermas see things differently.
Likewise AMericans watch lots of porn (especially black and white) then think somewhat negatively of people who they think are sexually overactive.

And I hear that thermas did begin in the 1970s.

By the way, have you ever seen Amor Bandido? The movie is set around the Copacabana set scene in the 1970s (or early 80s). Lots of the scenes were shot inside Don Juans.

TJ

Macunaima
12-21-05, 01:05
I think most Brazilian women see guys who go to termas as scum whether they are gringos or Brazilians. Most Brazilian men don't see it as a problem, either way.

Politically, of course, you guys make a convenient scape-goat for a whole series of local demagogues, but probably more than half of these guys are going to termas themselves (and more than half the women are probably financially supported by their mate).

So the knee-jerk reaction is that this is a "gringo thing", but if you bring up the fact that Brazilian men do this too, most people will cheerfully admit that fact and then either claim that they are scum as well or shrug their dhoulders and say, "Yeah, but who cares? They're all consenting adults".

I have seen Amor Bandido, yes, and I think the 1970s is probably a good target date for this sort of thing. Big-time newspaper research needs to take place to run this thing to ground and I won't be able to do that until I finish my damned dissertation...

Macunaima
12-21-05, 14:04
...is now practicing every Friday night from about 7PM on in Praça Tiradentes, Imperatriz Leopoldina entrance.

(Y'know, I always thought it ironic that two of the biggest "zonas" in town are located on Queen Elizabeth St. and Empress Leopoldina St....)

Bango Cheito
12-22-05, 10:05
I think that American porn in many ways is a VERY good indicator of the American psyche. For example, it's ok for the woman to fake an orgasm, and for them to have to edit the pop shot because even the guy is getting bored, but using condoms is a no-no because then it wouldn't be 'real'.

American porn focuses largely on big dicks and big (almost always fake) breasts. Every scene is the same, with the obligatory facial cumshot. There is always a big push for anal and the emphasis is not on eroticism or creativity but rather on just how much a girl can 'take' in her ass and how hard the guy can fuck her so that she feels it in her throat through her ass. Kind of a neat analogy for how American society in general lives and dies in pursuit of $$$$$ and leaves a lot of more important (IMO) things by the wayside!

To me Brazilian, Euro, and Japanese porn kicks the shit out of American porn in every way shape and form. Likewise, the Brazilian mongering experience kicks the shit out of its American counterpart in so many ways, at ANY price point, but especially as you go up the ladder. Of course there is lots of shit Brazilian porn too, like the Vivi Fernandes clip up on brazzil.com!

As far as 'normal' girls, I would surmise that as long as you stick to big cities, if you have any game, you can hook up for free almost anywhere. Although if I ever do find myself single again and jonesing for sex, I will most certainly procure the services of a pro long before I hit those depressing pick-up joints!

Just one more point, in NYC anyways, most of the $500 an hour girls are also $50 an hour girls, and also walk the track from time to time when they really need that extra push to make ends meet. The different strata of girls here is largely a smokescreen, I know many girls who work for some clients for $50, others for $100 and others for several hundred for the same services. Then you also have your absolute strung out trolls who have no choice but to walk the street for whatever they can scrounge from it.
Besides that, you have mostly girls in other professions who are probably best described as semi-pros, models/dancers/showgirls who will fuck for bucks as long as they can keep it on the low and not get the '*****' label attached to them. ALL of the above are going to be very reluctant to do anything more than the basic fuck n suck with a client, however. DFKing clients is especially rare here, anal is not rare but it is uncommon, and anything else is EXTREMELY rare aside from femdom, and even that is quite uncommon. Staying for more than a few hours is also just about unheard of here under ANY circumstance. Hell, most areas of NYC have NO mid to high level outcall available, because most outcall girls will only go to expensive Midtown hotels or to very rich neighborhoods!

Just as an example, if I were looking for a paid female sub either as an American making four times the minimum wage or as a Brazilian making four times the minimum salary, I'd DEFINITELY prefer to be in the Brazilian's shoes (even if they are Quixotes instead of Nikies :P)

Sunset Strip
12-22-05, 23:38
Bango,
I had the feeling when I began your post that you were going to go on an anti-American rant, and you did. How is anything that you said a neat analogy of American society??? MAybe it is a neat analogy of the world in general.

And you make a comment that Brazilian porn beats American porn. Then why is American porn so prevalent in Brazilian sex shops. Ever heard of the Buttman, Lexington Steel, Anabolic Video, Red Light District? No, well plenty of Brazilians have!

I do not want to start an argument, but please try to be fair in your posts. MACU actually is trying to be fair here. He is saying that PEOPLE, no matter were they are, live lifes fraught with contradictions.

Somehow it seems you think you and MACU are making similar arguments, but that is very untrue.You are just trying to ridicule Americans. That is unfair.

TJ

Sunset Strip
12-22-05, 23:47
In an earlier discusion, Bango and Macu were comparing the two nations. BAngo was correct in saying that there are severe crackdowns on prostitution in the US., IN fact, I always tell people NOT TO MONGER IN THE US. YOu will lose your car or they will fine you a ridiculous amount of money. AND YOU WILL HAVE A POLICE record. In most major cities, as BC, said many of the pros. are undercover. DO NOT DO IT.

But then again I think if you are rich enough then you can pay to have a call girl or go to a private place that caters to your crowd. These types of places are increasing.

So in that respect both of you are correct. Street prostitution is difficult. But Prostitution is still in full swing in the US. It is just becoming an inside, private thing. Hey, MAC, does this sound like good, old contradictory behavior to you.

Have either of you seen the movie American Pimp? They talk about how things are moving inside.
TJ

Macunaima
12-23-05, 16:35
BC, American porn is a very good indicator of AMERICAN FANTASY, yes. I mean, it may have a lot to say about the American unconscious, but it isn't a good "ethnographic" view of what yanks actually do in bed.

"Just one more point, in NYC anyways, most of the $500 an hour girls are also $50 an hour girls, and also walk the track from time to time when they really need that extra push to make ends meet. The different strata of girls here is largely a smokescreen, I know many girls who work for some clients for $50, others for $100 and others for several hundred for the same services."

Good observation. Thats true here too. Many of the women from VM and Tiradentes will be flooding into Copa over the holidays in order to pick up easy cash.

Bango Cheito
12-24-05, 05:46
TJ, I cannot speak for your particular neck of the woods, because my main area of experience is in NYC. BUT in NYC even the underground shit has been almost totally and completely shut out at all but maybe the highest levels. Incall is just short of impossible anywhere in the five boroughs and even in outlying areas. I encourage you to look at the NYC Conn and Jersey forums on here and check it out. For awhile a bunch of mongers (and girls) were heading out as far as Bridgeport and Newburgh (both places an hour+ drive from NYC limits) to do biz. Even these areas got shut down by local LE!

Out of the handful of promoters I know in the NYC area all but one have been shut down in the last 5 years. And the one still operating has suffered a bust in the past year, and is now operating on a very limited and security-conscious basis. For example, if I wanted to go to an event with a friend from out of town I'd have NO WAY of getting his ass through the door!

If you cross reference any of the NYC area posters on this board you will find very few of them havent also been posting more on other areas of the board, usually DR, CR, Colombia or Brazil! One formerly very active poster who used to be instrumental to this board that I know personally now goes down to the DR to do all his mongering, as in 9-10 times a year.

Bango Cheito
12-24-05, 05:53
TJ, MO, Brazilian porn totally trumps American porn. Yes, American porn still outsells it by quite a big margin, although the gap is closing more and more. But Coca Cola also way outsells Chianti, but I will still always prefer the latter, even if I pay 20 times more for it!

Am I down on American culture? You bet your ass I am! I'm not trying to keep it a secret, but a more detailed discussion would probably be too OT for this board :P, come see Macu and me on brazzil.com if you want to argue it further! :)

Macu, once again, I can only speak from personal experience, but my personal experience is far from small. From the girls I have known personally, there does seem to be a preponderance of 'please fuck me so hard I feel it in my stomach' from American females as opposed to other females, to the point of me starting to lose interest in the act. Based on these experiences, it would seem to me to be a nationwide cultural difference.

Wandering Fool
12-25-05, 21:37
Bango, I want to inject a somewhat different view from your own about NYC mongering. I have been thinking lately how the explosion of Craigs List in the US, especially in the big cities like LA and NY, is changing the landscape for mongering. Yes, there have been crackdowns escpecially in NY of the large established agencies, but those girls are still around. There was a recent article that I will try to locate that touches on exactly what I've been noticing...craigslist is making it so easy for girls to advertise and get a quick hookup that more and more non-pros are entering the game. The average hourly is $200 and half hours can be had for $100-$150. With the current exchange rates these are competitive with the rates at Help.

The quality, like Help. varies greatly. Most of the advertisers in the last year have figured out that they need to post photos to get any business so there's plenty of visuals to help narrow your decision. Lots of fake and misleading photos but also many real. Many, maybe most, are indies, part timers, first timers etc. I've had two recently who were literally first day on the job girls who were just "trying it out", having been drawn in by friends who do it. Also, since the agencies aren't involved with many of these, there's a casualness, especially with the newbies that reminds me of Brazil. Clock watching and adherence to rules is loose if the girl likes you. It's also easy to turn them away if their appearence is sub par since there's no agency (and often no driver) to give them muscle.

I don't agree that "most 50 dollar girls are also 500 dollar girls." This is an exageration, although I've been in the room with a 300 girl who then gets a call from her 600 dollar agency for a gig -so, yes, depending on where you find them, the rates can vary greatly. That's the beauty of Craigs List, its where the girls are putting out their lowest dollar prices for service.

I also disagree that incall in NYC is rare. It's alive and well, just not with major agencies. It's all indies renting hotels and apartments in midtown now. Just go to eros.com or craigs list and look at everyone advertising. Once they get enough clients they stop advertising for a while -no need to keep a higher than necessary profile.

I think the indy scene (which is the most fun to me) is more popular than ever, due in part to craigs list. Yes, there has always been the Voice and Free Press, and for quite a while, eros.com and a few others, but somehow, craigs list is so quick and spontaneous to run an ad, and now everyone has a camera in their phone, so girls who normally would not have gone to the trouble of running ads in these other outlets are suddenly giving it a shot.

This is a phenomenon that has literally happened over the last 18 months or so. Prior to that, it was the same 5 girls running ads on CL.

Ironically, since NY has such a large latina population, it really can seem like a trip to Brazil without ever leaving your apartment!

Bango Cheito
12-27-05, 00:16
Actually, my point about the same girls charging vastly different prices in NYC was EXACTLY based on CL. You can peruse CL and trip over every second girl who I'd probably know from the underground parties and who'se standard rates there are $40-50 oral $80-100 FS $120-150 anal. I have had $50 and $60 FS here at those parties from girls who advertise on CL for $200-300!

I always thought that taking a girl out of Help would set one back 200 reais or so, and that would be for an overnight, not just one hour (I personally have never cared for overnight but to others it may make a big difference). At any rate you can easily go to a decent therma for an hour for under 200 reais, which today clocks in at $85.43 USD, and with that you get the whole menu, and as many pops as you want.

Once again, I refer you to the NYC boards here, and I recommend you read up on people's experience of CL girls here. I have never used CL for that purpose, but part of the reason why is that I have learned from my friends' mistakes here!!

Another issue is, I live in the Bronx, and the vast majority of outcall girls (CL or otherwise) will not touch here, even though my neighborhood is fine. Not to mention I don't want the girls knowing where I live, nor do I want my neighbors seeing girls come in here! In Brazil they actually have the OPPOSITE problem, meaning if you stay in a 5 star you won't be able to bring a girl up so easily! But at any rate, you certainly dont have to worry about getting busted for ordering an escort like you do here in NYC!

And finally, I think there is a HUGE difference between the way the girls look here and the way they look down there. One could argue about which look better in what neighborhood at what age at what time of the year etc., but there is no denying there is a difference.

I have never actually travelled anywhere just for mongering, but I totally understand why people would do it. A Latin American destination can be great value for your $, and also you can experience things you wouldn't necessarily be able to experience so easily here.

Wandering Fool
12-27-05, 02:53
Bango,

I'm hip to what you're saying, I've done the underground thing here and also was a member of the "spot" before it got closed. Yes, in that case, you can get those girls at the parties for around $60 (not counting the entrance fee and room fee) but for me that's below the threshold of enjoyment. I don't like doing the act in common rooms with several other couples only feet away, or rooms that close with just a curtain like a dressing room.

I've done CL extensively and really enjoy the variety and finding the occasional needle in the haystack, and since I have no problem turning girls away (and do it quite often) I only stay with the ones I want to.

Regarding the Termas, I would never put anything up against that! I would certainly rather monger in Brazil given the choice because of the selection and options, but my point is that CL has brought in the real indies and newbies and with that a certain casualness that reminds me at times of the Rio experience right here in the US.

I'll take this over to the local boards, I think I can stir things up a bit over there.

Bango Cheito
12-27-05, 20:08
I think NYC coulda possibly competed with Rio back in the 80s and early 90s, when you had plenty of 24 hour incall off of places like Roosevelt Av. The spot was cool but there was nothing before 7pm really and by 11pm they were winding down. That's a pretty narrow window! Although I don't think too many of the NYC incalls ever had showers like the thermas do. That is the thing that makes the best difference, that and the willingness of the girls to experiment!

Sunset Strip
12-27-05, 20:09
BC said,

"TJ, I cannot speak for your particular neck of the woods, because my main area of experience is in NYC. BUT in NYC even the underground shit has been almost totally and completely shut out at all but maybe the highest levels."

I do not disgree with you. Where I live they started craking down about 20 years ago. And since we live near the border with Mexico judges have NO SYMPATHY for you ass! You get totally worked over in court for soliciting prostitution in Southern California.

What I was saying jibes with your experience. In Southen Cali and many other regions only the rich can still pay-to-play without problems.

Can you all explain Criag's List further?

TJ

Sunset Strip
12-27-05, 20:11
BC Said,"I think NYC coulda possibly competed with Rio back in the 80s and early 90s, when you had plenty of 24 hour incall off of places like Roosevelt Av."

Wasn't this where they filmed parts of Hookers at the Point?

TJ

Ezinho
12-28-05, 02:41
I was going to post this in the Rio section, but I'm putting it here because I think I'll get some better responses.

I was always under the impression that opening up a terma in Rio is VERY difficult to do, and that it doesn't happen often. If this is the case, how in the hell have two new termas opened up in the last month or so? And what exactly must be done in order to open up (and keep open) a terma, in terms of government regulations, bribes, etc. So, what I'm really asking is, what needs to be done in order for there to be a "Terma Ezinho" lol!

Also, does anyone think that this terma expansion in Rio is a result of increasing sex tourism to Brasil? Does anyone think that it is possible sex tourism in Rio will be greater than in, say, Bangkok or San Jose CR?

Wandering Fool
12-28-05, 04:12
tj,

i'm not sure what you're asking about cl in terms of explaining further, but its pretty straight forward: online classifieds with photos (many fake, but its up to you to filter them). the fact that its free and very easy to use for both the browser and the person posting, and that its totally anonymous (if you desire) is making it increasingly popular with the low to mid priced crowd. its got the "bargain basement" reputation so there is pressure for the girls to keep their prices down -even girls who might ask more on eros.com or through an agency might drum up some of their own indy work on cl. this ease of use has also brought in girls who are just "experimenting" with being pros -some of whom at first will only offer massage. i've seen some "massage only" girls graduate over time to advertising full service and some full service graduate to offering greek.

since there's no regulation, it's the wild west and i'm sure many inexperienced guys are getting taken so the cl rep isn't always good. because i've been at this game long enough to have a pretty good eye for fake photos and have a "take no sh*t from the girl" attitude (despite being a nice guy) i have had some great experiences.

another thing i'll mention is that i find things with the cl girls much more relaxed than say 10 years ago with the incall places in terms of gfe, greek, bbbj etc. the incall places i went to in the mid 90's had decent girls but the menu always seemed to be somewhat limited. cl girls, often indies, don't have the pressure of the "rules of the house" and the peer pressure of the girls they work beside all day to toe the line so they're more apt to do, well, whatever you can talk them into ;)

Macunaima
12-28-05, 17:33
Regarding Ezinho's post...

It's actually not too hard to start up a new termas, from what I understand. What IS hard is keeping it operating at a profit.

One would need to have pay-offs in the local and city police force. Some termas owners apparently help short circuit this requirement by having cops as part of their "director's board". But then it's a question of knowing which cops actually have the power to keep one from being harassed and which will just suck money out of you until you eventually collapse.

This is the problem with corruption in Brazil: it is NOT like most gringos imagine it to be. For a border-line legal place like a termas, some arrangement with local authorities must obviously be made, but... a) not all cops are corrupt, b) not all corrupt cops have the power to give you what you want, but all will act like they do and c) corrupt cops don't stay bought, ESPECIALLY if the local citizenry or residents union starts bringing their elected officials into the game after your ass. Then it becomes a case of "whose legal dick is bigger?" and gringos will almost always lose that sort of battle unless they have good local partners with great contacts, deep pockets and a lot of patience.

The first question is: are these two new termas built on an old sex-industry venue? If so, changing ownership and etc. is a relatively easy process. DIFFICULT is building a new termas in a neighborhood which does not want sex work going on within its borders.

So the upshot of this, Ezinho, is that it's easier and safer to buy into a going concern than it is to start your own business. After you learn Portuguese and the legal ins and outs after a few years and make the necessary contacts, then you could possibly think about striking out on your own. But trying to get something like this started from nothing is probably a great recipe for disaster if one is a gringo.

Market protectionism works VERY much in favor of the established Brazilian interests in the sex industry down here. Just ask the gringo who's now been busted twice for organizing boat tours in Guanabara Bay...

Macunaima
12-28-05, 17:36
Regarding your last questions, I think this "expansion" could in fact be a simple reshuffling of assets - i.e. one place opens and another closes. From what I understand, I really doubt that Rio will ever rival Bangkoc.

Bango Cheito
12-28-05, 18:44
I wouldn't even be surprised if someone started to open up a new therma as a complete outsider and simply turned up dead right off the bat!

TJ, we are referring to the 'casual encounters' or 'erotic services' sections of CL. I'd imagine LA has them too!

Macu, usually when experienced travellers talk about the world's top sex destinations, one hears about Rio, Thailand, DR, and Amsterdam more than anywhere else. At least in my experience.

Macunaima
12-29-05, 17:49
I don't think someone would turn up dead. That seems to me to be an excessively dramatic reading of the extent of crime and corruption here. One doesn't need to hire killers when one's brother-in-law is the chief of the fire inspection division of the city government...

It also seems to me that more than anything else, monger tastes in the matter are geared to expenses. In the last year, for example, the dollar dropped by 1/3rd in Brazil and monger complaints on this board that Brazil was now "ruined" increased by some 300%.

Bango Cheito
12-30-05, 07:03
Well, I had some free time (or actually just didn't feel like doing any more fucking work) and checked out the NYC and the Thailand sections, which I had not done for months now. It is even worse than I thought here. They are busting everybody left right and center. And there is some pig troll on there boasting about it pretending to be a monger too and 'warning' people away from the UG parties. SOO fucking sad.

Thailand certainly seems to be a happening place, but NONE of the photos there did anything for me. I like big asses, what can I say? :P

Also, none of the places I read about there are even close to being set up the way a therma is, they are set up more like the NYC parties, with a main bar area and sometimes a stage for shows, and then little cubicles off to the side with curtains. Sometimes not even individual privacy at all, just a separate room where the orgy takes place :P No individual bathrooms, showers etc, certainly no sauna and mini-wateralls! For me privacy isn't such a huge necessity but it does make a difference in what a girl will or won't do sometimes, as other girls will look down on her if she gets too freaky!

I think NYC up until the mid 90s or so was in many ways the best destination for mongering. Despite it being an expensive city, the girls used to be relatively cheap, especially if you knew what time it was. I kinda witnessed the tail end of the good stuff, I came here for the first time in 1994 and lived here full time by 1997. Within a year of my getting here, the action was drastically reduced. Many of the Roosevelt Av joints used to operate 24/7 and you could find 4-5 places with 15-20 girls each on a good block. Just in terms of sheer numbers and variety, NYC took the cake too. I'm still wondering how the fuck could it all disappear within 10 years or so?

Bango Cheito
12-30-05, 07:11
Macu, one might think that on the surface, but look at for example how many NYC mongers go down to the DR and end up paying just about what they pay here for services, when obviously the local market doesnt bear such high rates! You have several classes of mongers in that regard, I think. Some are price conscious to the exclusion of everything, which I think is silly, and some overpay by a double digit factor at times, which is equally silly!

Macunaima
12-30-05, 18:01
Well, yes, I didn't say that price was the ONLY factor, I just said it was the MAIN factor.

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of places in this world where right-wing republicans and blue-nose democrats AREN'T in control and those are the places Brazil competes with, not NYC. Argentina, the DR, Cuba, Thailand... hell, even the FKs in Germany are what we need to compare Rio with. And it seems to me that there's a basica technology involved in customer service in this industry and that's now international. Any place that ISN'T having a witch hunt this decade is simply going to use it, provided they have the capital to provide it.

(Note by "technology" here I mean something wider than just machines and equipment, something closer to the original meaning of the word which could perhaps be glossed as "know how".)

Sunset Strip
12-31-05, 00:22
A Blue nose Democrat??? What is that?

I have to go for a couple of days. But have a Happy New Year all.

And MACU needs to get to work on his DAMN DISSERTATION NOW!


peace,
TJ

Macunaima
01-04-06, 22:34
tom phillips
wednesday january 4, 2006
the guardian


friday night and in suite g of a dingy brothel in central rio de janeiro a revolution in brazilian carnival is springing to life. it's here - among soiled bed-sheets, x-rated porn movies and flickering light bulbs - that the city's night workers have dreamt up its newest carnival group: the bloco das putas.

part of a prostitutes' collective, which includes a fashion label and a modelling school, the bloco das putas or "*****s' carnival group" aims to strike back at prejudice against the city's call girls. the leader of the movement, gabriela leite, watches prostitutes, clients, curious onlookers and a smattering of gringos crowd into the narrow, cobbled streets outside suite g for the bloco's launch.


"this is one day that we *****s can be considered part of society," she says, on the verge of tears. "we were never part of brazil, and we have to be. we are specialists in sex and we are human beings," she says, seemingly oblivious to the naked bodies writhing about on the television above her.

over her shoulder a small grate looks out on to the street in praça tiradentes that will be the bloco's home each friday from now until february's carnival. nothing, not even a soiled pair of knickers that has been abandoned on the windowsill, can stop the group's unique blend of samba, techno and brazilian funk pouring remorselessly into the cramped boudoir.

the bloco de rua (street party) has been at the heart of carnival since the 1920s. while high society traditionally spends the four days of carnival holed up in glamorous ballrooms, brazil's povão (or hoi polloi) hit the streets in the form of alcohol-soaked blocos, with deafening drum sections, whistles and extravagant costumes.

these days, hundreds of thousands of themed blocos are rep001tered across the country. there's the bloco das piranhas, in which cachaça-fuelled men rampage across são gonçalo wearing high-heels and florid mini-skirts and the world-famous banda de ipanema which unites thousands of gyrating drag queens in ipanema each year. bloco is a way of asserting your identity.

"finally we are starting to show that we exist. we are a little different - we work with sex - but we exist," says leite from sao paulo, who is spearheading the "puta pride" movement as the president of the brazilian prostitutes network.

"sex professional?" she scoffs, as her colleagues touch up their makeup on the huge mirror behind the bed. "what a stupid name. we are putas. if we don't assume the name that we have, then how can we go forwards? we have to accept that our sons are sons of bitches. if we don't accept this, we'll never be happy."

unsurprisingly, the collective is no stranger to controversy. following the foundation of its sister-fashion label (called daspu, a tongue in cheek reference to the chic sao paulo clothing outlet daslu and a play on the words "of the *****s") the prostitutes are being threatened with legal action unless they change their name.

but at the merest mention of daslu - a shopping centre for south america's super-rich which opened its new £30m store in june - the putas erupt into laughter. the owner of the sao paulo boutique is currently being investigated for fraud, they point out, and they want to sue us?

besides, the putas themselves seem to relish the battle for visibility. and all daslu's lawyers have done, they say, is helped give them that.

Macunaima
01-04-06, 22:46
04/12/2005 - 16h02m
Garota de programa denounces American for beatng her
Camilo Coelho - Extra

RIO - Delminha Fernandes da Veiga, a 25 year-old garota de programa filed charges last Sunday in the Delegacia Especial de Atendimento ao Turista (Deat) against David Steven Paul, an American. According to friends, Delminha met the American in the early hours of Sunday morning in a club in Copacabana. The two slept together in an apartment which he had rented on Avenida Atlântica, but the next morning, David refused to pay for the services rendered. According to Delminha, the two fought and the American beat her. She then contracted a lawyer and, together with her friends, filed charges against the supposed agressor at DEAT. The garota de programa has a swollen eye due to rceiving a blow. The American was taken to the Federal Police.


That gringo's name looks a little odd to me...

Gladiator
01-05-06, 00:40
I would like to hear the other side of the story...

Chances are this hooker tried to scam the gringo somehow and things escalated till he had no option but to kick her ass out of his room.

Macunaima
01-05-06, 16:33
I'd like to hear the other side of the story, too. Anyone who knoews anything about it it, I'm all ears.

But seeing as how pros are notoriously cop-shy and seeing as how she went to the TOURIST POLICE, which are there to protect tourists, she must feel that she has a pretty damned good case.

Under Brazilian law, whether or not she made a pain in the ass of herself, if he hit her and left a mark and she can prove that, he could potentially be in some serious shit. "Serious" in its potential to fuck up his vacation and cost him much more money than she was asking for, at any rate. Apparently she went to the hospital right after the event and has friends to vouch for her regarding what happened, so... In any case, this guy's name probably has a flag next to it on the PF's computer, which is not a good thing.

But that name seems to me to be completely invented, so this whole thing might just be moot, anyhow.

Lover Boy #2
01-08-06, 22:33
Bango Cheito,

I saw your post where you mention Thailand. You are totally wrong. Thailand has the closet atmosphere to Brasil (in terms of the type of clubs and services).

"Also, none of the places I read about there are even close to being set up the way a therma is"........ this isn't true at all. I don't know what you are reading. I lived in LOS for many years. Anything in Brasil is available in Thai (except the willingness to engage in anal). There are many clubs from BKK to Pattaya that are almost identical to the terma experience. You have to get in and look.

Bango Cheito
01-09-06, 03:51
From what this forum seems to have on the subject, the places in thailand have individual booths, but not rooms with their own shower. I guess I could be misinformed about that and places over there DO have the individual showers.

I imagine it largely has to do with personal tastes in women. Personally I don't like women that are too thin or don't have enough curves to them. To me I am more in line with a South American standard of beauty.

Speaking of that, Macu it is real interesting that you commented once that the locals in Rio seem to be getting more and more out of shape as more and more processed foods are flooding the market. A friend of mine visited Rio in August 2005 after having gone with me and another friend there in August 2004, and he said he noticed a marked difference in the amount of beer bellies and fat rolls!

Macunaima
02-22-06, 21:15
The ladies from Davida and Daspu will be on a float in the samba school Caprichoso dos Pilares during this Carnival, representing a 17th century Brazilian prostitute who lead the resistance againdt the Dutch invaders.

And the pros bloco "Prazeres da Vida" will parade from R. Imperatriz Leopoldina in Praça Tiradentes to join with a Banda da Bola Preta, the official "opening" school of Carnival on this coming Saturday morning.

Come out and show your support for the women who work to make tyour lives more fun. And Bola Preta is a blast...

Macunaima
03-28-06, 16:23
I hate to say "I told you so", folks, but I did indeed.

A big batch of arrests and deportations, once again, almost exclusively of African American men.

Word is out that Centaurus has been closed by the cops, too, but that's just a rumor at this stage.

Anyone who has any more or better info, please contact me.

Lover Boy #2
03-29-06, 06:28
Question.....you are saying they arrested everyone (or that many were present of all skin color) including folks with whiter skin....but only deported African Americans? If true this is almost out of 1700s African slave trade and US plantation life. Can´t a black man get a friggín break? Ordem e Progresso?








I hate to say "I told you so", folks, but I did indeed.

A big batch of arrests and deportations, once again, almost exclusively of African American men.

Word is out that Centaurus has been closed by the cops, too, but that's just a rumor at this stage.

Anyone who has any more or better info, please contact me.

Voyajer1
03-29-06, 06:40
Are these arrest being conducted on people (African American) hanging out in big groups as in the "sex boat" trip last year? Are they just narrowing these arrest on these folk because they stand out like sore thumbs? I'm headed in that direction within the next 3 months and I definitely will stay out of their big termas until someone can tell us what the hell is up over there. I can hit all the small cheap ones and let you all know how it went. This sucks!

Scotch
03-29-06, 13:58
Termas Busted?

I have a problem with Rio if they bust Termas and only arrest Blacks yankees. Now if they are trying to get higher payout so be it. I always assume that the termas pay off gov't or high ranking cops to aviod this BS. It seems more like they might be try to monopoly the termas to only the ones that pay off well. I will be Rio in 2 weeks and being a military Officer; I can not afford the deportating process. I would like to know if anyone know which termas have deep pockets to make the cops happy or I will go to DR. Rio is not worth going too for just help, cheap thermas and call girls.

Perkele
03-30-06, 03:06
I called today to Rio and seems that something is going on.

Don't know about deportations, but somebody has started another crusade against sexual tourism.

I spoke with a girl who is working in one of the thermases as a receptionist and she was a bit worried about her job. They haven't been raided as yet but she said that she won't go to work for a while because of this.
Trust me it has to be serious if brasilian girl refuses to go to work.

So whom ever is concerned about his rep. etc I'd recommend to stay away for a while.

Lover Boy #2
03-30-06, 20:34
I wouldn´t get paranoid about this until more info becomes available.

Mac, as you know everything, why not read some newspapers, listen to some radio/tv...and tell the public what is going on.

Right now....although prices are up and if you come here only for sex it might not be worth it......it seems like nothing has happened.

The rumor is that black people got targeted and deported. This really seems fucked up. Hip Hop or no Hop......black guys from America are usually real friendly at the clubs and I have never seen any causing any problems. The only fist fight I ever had here was with a local who punched a girl flat out in the face...for no apparent reason.....he didn´t even get arrested....only asked to leave the club....and I think I broke my wrist on his head.

Mac....where are you when you are needed?

Lover Boy #2
04-01-06, 19:26
I hate to say "I told you so", folks, but I did indeed.

A big batch of arrests and deportations, once again, almost exclusively of African American men.

Word is out that Centaurus has been closed by the cops, too, but that's just a rumor at this stage.

Anyone who has any more or better info, please contact me.

Mac...why start this shit, then not finish it? You are an educated, well spoken serial antagonist.....with access to all news channels (broadcast, print, prostitue unions, etc.)......why not use ´´your´´ forum to channel some info to the boyz??

Macunaima
04-03-06, 05:37
Brazilian Police Seek to Curb Sex Tourism
By TALES AZZONI, Associated Press Writer

Sat Apr 1, 7:26 PM ET

Cracking down on visitors who come to Brazil for sex, police raided clubs known for using call girls and strippers, detaining 118 foreigners early Saturday to discourage what authorities called "sexual tourism."

The tourists — mostly from Portugal, Spain, Italy, France and Norway — were briefly held in the northeastern city of Natal for not carrying passports or international identification cards that Brazil requires of all foreigners, police said. They were fined $76 and released.

Luiz Pereira, a federal police officer, said the country hoped the operation "will help discourage tourists who think sexual tourism is easy in Brazil."

"We are showing that police are paying attention to this problem," he said.

More than 70 federal agents raided two nightclubs known for using strippers and call girls to attract tourists, Pereira said. Police detained 118 tourists in the raids in Natal, 1,520 miles northeast of Sao Paulo, he said.

Prostitution is legal in Brazil, but people who promote sex tourism can be charged.

Some of the detained had expired visas and were ordered to leave the country within eight days, police said.

Police have conducted similar operations in recent months in Natal. In one raid, six Italian men were arrested on charges of owning prostitution houses aimed at tourists.

Macunaima
04-03-06, 05:47
I've not "finished" things here because I've spent the last couple weeks digging up info on these busts. Seems that initial rumors have been somewhat exagerated.

The busts occurred - get this - as part of a police strike. "Work according to the law" was the rule of the day, so they spent all week arresting people for annoying shit and namby-pamby morals charges that are still on the books but are never enforced. Busting two termas - Centaurus and Rio Antigo - was part of this, as was going after numbers runners, jay-walkers... the works.

So this bust wasn't part of a coordinated crusade. It DOES show, however, how relatively vulnerable the termas are these days. Cops feel they can do this because they feel the mass of the population is on their side re: stamping on the Gringo Threat to Our Women.

As of yet, I have not been able to confirm the rumor that African Americans were deported because of these raids. What I have heard is that a whole bunch of them got caught in the RA raid and they were deported on sexual tourism charges. I'm sure that if any white gringos were there, they'd've been deported too.

So my advice for the nonce remains the same: if you monger, carry ID. If the cops bust you, say nothing and call the Consulate for a lawyer.

Here're some numbers of lawyers who are vouched for by the U.S. and Brit consulates in Brazil. Print out this list before you go and carry the contact numbers for your city in your wallet:

http://www.embaixada-americana.org.br/index.php?index.php&action=materia&id=1103&itemmenu=58&submenu=8

Sunset Strip
04-07-06, 22:33
Hi Lover Boy,

I doubt black people got targeted in these raids. There were a FEW black faces in the Natal raid pictures. But in Brazil we should expect to see some black faces. Most likely, they were not even from the USA.

And in the Copa raids I wil bet anybody busted is involved in actual sex tourism. That is what happened last year with the boat raid.

Somebody here mentioned they could be targeting AFAMS in large groups. That is no likely. Remember the boat incident last year was caused by some guy who was coordinating the sex--we call it pimping in the US--not because there were a lot of black men there.

Let's not get paranoid about Rio. And blacks who read these posts should remember that the overwhelming majority of people busted have NOt been black!
TJ

Macunaima
04-09-06, 00:31
Here's something to get paranoid about, however.

Over the last few years, the federal police have maintained that they have the right to deport anyone they feel like, at any time. In the case of the boat bust last year, this is what they tried to do. They justified their attempt at deportation by saying that being on that boat was, ipso facto, asmission to lying re: one's reasons on coming to Brazil.

Well, they got that one shoved down their throats by a local judge and the American Consulate.

But get this...

A country has to offer no reason at all as to why it denied your visa, right? You have no necessary right to go anywhere outside your home country.

So what do you want to bet that the Natal busts and the like are simply an attempt to build a database of suspected sex tourists. Then, when these guys ask for their next visa, DENIED, no explanation offered.

Brazil has done shit like this before and it's worth thinking about.

Sunset Strip
04-10-06, 19:14
That sounds about what I was expecting. I told a friend of mine about that this weekend. Basically if you are IN A BUST, then you are stained no matter what the end result is.

My friend kept saying that as long as he had his passport and papers he would be okay.
But as you imply the blurry line between sex tourism, mongering, etc. that the Brazilians authorities take advantage of can make a "troublemaker" out of a guy caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

AND the US constituion does not apply, and if you are not Brazilian, as you say, then you have NO RIGHT to a visa!

TJ

El Austriaco
04-12-06, 00:29
So what do you want to bet that the Natal busts and the like are simply an attempt to build a database of suspected sex tourists. Then, when these guys ask for their next visa, DENIED, no explanation offered.
But this would only apply to citizens of countries which do require visas, right? As a EU citizen, nobody needs a visa to go to Brazil. I know, because I don´t. What do you think they would do in that case, Macunaima... deny entry upon arrival in Brazil? And how can they even possibly claim that someone states a wrong reason for travel to Brazil? If I remember correctly, "whoring" is not one of the options on the entry form and, IMHO, perfectly covered by the term "leisure" or "tourism". I mean, claiming that sex tourism is not a form of tourism is like saying that, technically, "oral sex" does not constitute sex :).

I do agree, however, that they are most likely building a database on "sex tourists". So what do you want to bet that there are right-wing conservative politicians or law enforcement authorities in just about any country who would just die to get their hands onto that information, regardless of whether you engage in anything illegal or not, in the oh-so noble fight against sex tourism. Combine this with Brazilian corruption, and this does not bode well.

EA

Macunaima
04-12-06, 21:54
el aus, visa or no, you come through customs where you can be denied entry into the country, no recourse to the law.

sure, you need no visa, but you still have to show id and when you do, your name comes up on the screen and you're told you can't be allowed in "because of your police record". and what, exactly, can you do at that moment?

if this sort of thing is happening, we should hear about it soon, so please keep your ears peeled. the only recourse in situations like this is political or legal activity within brazil and that's where associations like the one i work with might be of help.

"and how can they even possibly claim that someone states a wrong reason for travel to brazil? if i remember correctly, "whoring" is not one of the options on the entry form and, imho, perfectly covered by the term "leisure" or "tourism". i mean, claiming that sex tourism is not a form of tourism is like saying that, technically, "oral sex" does not constitute sex."

they don't have to say or prove anything. you're not a citizen, nor even in the country yet. if they don't want to let you in, for whatever the reason, it's entirely up to them. what are you going to do? take it to the world court? or sue the brazilian government itself within the brazilian legal system? the last option would be your only option, but how many mongers are likely to do that?

the only decent option, as far as i can see it, would be a class action suit and that could take years to resolve. i highly doubt that mongers would be organized enough to get something like that together and stick with it, even with inside help from folks like me.

El Austriaco
04-12-06, 22:29
Can´t really see how a mongers´association would have any weight in such a struggle, considering the current backlash against the hobby. Not that mongers would ever be organized enough to put something like this up, totally agree. But how about a providers´association? After all, prostitution in and by itself is legal in Brazil, and customers, Brazilian or not, who seek such services are also not breaking the law in any way. But at the same time, denying entry to foreigners who seek the services of Brazilian prostitutes and, mostly, pay good rates by Brazilian standards certainly is CLEARLY interfering with the rights of Brazilian sex workers to conduct business as they please. And I certainly can´t imagine that the Copacabana GDPs would be too happy about THAT.

The other really troubling aspect about it is that, well, if you need a visa and are denied one, you might actually be better off, considering that, at least, you don´t spend all the money on a plane ticket and all the time traveling there. Imagine you get there and are sent back on the next plane without any explanation given. Scary. Can´t really imagine that the airlines would be too happy about that. We might have international background checks before you can buy a ticket. In that case, an international monger database can´t be far off....

Gladiator
04-12-06, 22:58
I doubt that Brazil will deny entry to the busted guys, because I doubt, to start with, that Brazil has any interest at all in eradicating sex tourism, IMO all Brazilian authorities want is getting some headlines now and then, to make people believe that they are really fighting against sex tourism, when the truth is, as we all know, that sex tourism in Brazil is widely accepted and tolerated.

As an example, look at Iracema in Fortaleza: on any given night there are loads of obvious hookers all over the place, at least 6 clubs frequented exclusively by hookers and sex tourists, it’s probably the biggest hive of activity in the whole city most nights, even with a police station in the middle of the action. And what do the authorities do to fight sex tourism in Iracema? Some occasional raids asking for passports and fining a handful of newbies who don’t have them.

Does anyone believe that they want to eradicate sex tourism that way? However, they get what they want: headlines in papers about how active the authorities are against sex tourism.

If they really wanted to eradicate or substantially decrease the Iracema scene they could easily do as Cuban authorities did in Varadero in the late 90’s: arrest all obvious hookers and close down all obvious mongers’ discos, not an easy job but it can be done if they really wanted to. Some time later, there were no hookers in Varadero, nor mongers. Varadero was (and still is) free of sex tourism, there are only package tourists over there.

Brazil doesn’t really give a shit about sex tourism, they are happy with the hard currency sex tourists inject into the economy, but they need to safe face, so one raid in Natal today fining a few guys with 200 R$, another quick raid in Fortaleza tomorrow and busting one boat in Rio the day after tomorrow will do the job – it won’t affect the overall sex tourism scene in the slightest, but will generate the necessary news to keep some happy.

Macunaima
04-13-06, 18:07
gladiator, i agree that most brazilians could care less about sexual tourism - at least of the kind you guys practice, with consenting adults. but your economicist view of why they don't care is off, imho. cuba needs hard currency far more than brazil and they cracked down, by your own admission. here in rio - and even in forteleza - the amount of money sexual tourism brings into the economy is not significant enough to affect politics at a state or national level. local level, perhaps. e olha lá...

you guys forget how big the economy here actually is. if that sexual tourism dollar is heavily concentrated - and i suspect that it is - there's no reason why other political agents in brazil who don't benefit from it wouldn't try to shut it down. compared to the economy of rdj, sexual tourism is a gnat on the horse's ass.

let's do some raw calculations, shall we?

mongers - people who come here specifically for commercial sex and nothing else - are in fact a minority community in the tourism market. most of the guys at help, for example, on any given night aren't mongers, but regular tourists or businessmen who are there simply because it's there. remove help and they'll still be in country, spending cash elsewhere. the additional money they inject into the economy because of prostitution is almost nil and what they inject tends to stay in the prostitutes' hands - prostitutes don't own many senators or even city councilmen in brazil. so we can cross these guys off the list as an economic factor.

on any given night in copa, low season, there are probably 500 gringos. high season that might go up to 10 times that. the average tourist stays in brazil for 10 days. so...

high season (10 x 5000) + low season (26 x 500) = 63,000 gringos out on copa looking for cootch every year.

now, as i said above, most of these guys aren't mongers. in fact, given my research, i'd say at least 2/3rds of them would be here anyhow. so let's say 21,000 mongers visit rio in a year. the average monger seems to spend about 6000 reais while he's here, so that monger dollar comes to about usd 63,000,000 a year.

now that's a significant chunk of cash. but rio de janeiro receives some 750,000 tourists a year, who spend an average of usd3000 while they're here. rio's total income, then, is 2,250,000,000 dollars from tourism. rio's gdp is around 20,000,000,000 dollars annually. so this makes sexual tourism less than 3% of the total tourist dollar here and only about .3% of the total income of rio.

plus, that cash is pretty heavily concentrated in relatively few hands. face it: you guys simply don't get off of copacabana much.

what all this means is that getting rid of the sexual tourism industry in this city would hurt relatively few people. of those whom it would hurt, most (prostitutes) have little in the way of effective political representation.

so if you're banking on brazil not starting up a crusade, gladiator, be real clear about one thing: it has little to do with economics. i'd say your best chance is simply the fact that the average brazilian doesn't see prostitution by consenting adults as an evil that needs to be combated. but make no mistake: the abolitionists are trying to change that by creating a popular view that gringo sex tourists are, in fact, ****s.

Comgo
04-13-06, 18:35
On any given night in Copa, low season, there are probably 500 gringos. High season that might go up to 10 times that. The average tourist stays in Brazil for 10 days. So...

High season (10 x 5000) + Low season (26 x 500) = 63,000 gringos out on Copa looking for cootch every year.

Now, as I said above, most of these guys aren't mongers. In fact, given my research, I'd say at least 2/3rds of them would be here anyhow. So let's say 21,000 mongers visit Rio in a year. The average monger seems to spend about 6000 reais while he's here, so that monger dollar comes to about USD 63,000,000 a year.

Now that's a significant chunk of cash. But Rio de Janeiro receives some 750,000 tourists a year, who spend an average of USD3000 while they're here. Rio's total income, then, is 2,250,000,000 dollars from tourism. Rio's GdP is around 20,000,000,000 dollars annually. So this makes sexual tourism less than 3% of the total tourist dollar here and only about .3% of the total income of Rio.


Mac, your math and economic theory suck, stick to anthro. You think average mongers spend 6000R or about 2800USD but regular tourists spend 3000USD? Are you crazy? You think regular tourists spend more? You think regular tourists who probably come for no more than a week spend 3000USD? There are more mongers than the numbers that you're pulling out of your ass and they spend more than you think. My personal budget is much more than you estimate and I know many other mongers' budgets are as well more. You think that money stays concentrated? Those GDP's inject almost all of that money into your little economy (your economy is little to the 11+ trillion US economy). Even if all the monger money is a few percent of the income of the area, taking it away would have LARGE consequnces, much greater than the percentage it represents because of the ripple effect. I'd actually like for all monger money to stop going to Brazil so you could see what a large negative effect it would have on many local economies there, but keep telling yourself it's trivial.

Gladiator
04-13-06, 20:17
Macunaima,

My comparison between Cuba and Brazil was only to show that if the authorities really want to eradicate (or reduce to negligible levels) sex tourism they can do it. Cuba wanted to do it in Varadero and did it, Brazil simply doesn’t want to do it in Rio (and many other cities).

It’s true there’re still some good mongering opportunities in Havana and other places in Cuba, but that’s another story.

Cuba had much to earn from cracking down on sex tourism at the time they did it, as prostitution had reached epidemic proportions and was preventing them from developing their mainstream tourism industry, which was still emerging and with great potential for growth. On the other hand, Rio’s mainstream tourism market reached saturation point long ago: they won’t gain more mainstream tourists if the prostitution scene disappeared overnight.

Your research about the scale of sex tourism revenue in Rio seems to be flawed in different ways, I won’t comment on each particular point I disagree with, as that discussion could go on for ever. But even your modest final figure of 3% of the overall tourism revenue in Rio is a significant one – not many local tourism authorities would be happy wiping out 3% of their foreign tourism revenue, especially when they have nothing else to gain in return, apart from satisfying a handful of morality freaks.

Macunaima
04-15-06, 18:08
Comigo, actually, if you do the math you'll notice I presumed that mongers and regular tourists BOTH spent USD3,000 or BR6,000 in a ten day stay here. I didn't presume that there was a difference between the two. So while you may disagree with that presumption, theres no math error at all: in both cases I presumed a USD of 2BR.

Before you say someone's math skills suck, it's usually a good idea to do the math yourself, Comigo. ;-)

The 3000 USD figure comes straight from the horse's mouth - IBGE - and they make quite an effort to check that shit out. It seems reasonable, given costs in this town. The ten day average stay also comes from the IBGE. That average seems to be true for both mongers and regular tourists, probably because its the average holiday lenght in the U.S. and other countries, minus travel and preparation time. Nothing I've seen indicates that the average monger stays here more than that. He may COME BACK more than the average tourist, but that's neither here nor there for the purposes of these calculations.

As for whether or not your budgets and that of your friends is bigger, again, that's neither here nor there. Many monger budgets I've seen are SMALLER than this, in fact. I admit that more data is needed on thism point, but from what I've seen, mongers are not spending radically higher ammounts than regular tourists.

With regards to money concentration, that one I've got down pretty well, as I've interviewed several pros about their cash flow.

You'd be damned surprised, Comigo. From what I see, I'd estimate that if 33 cents on every real left the Copacabana area and the immediate sexual commerce market, plus those few industries directly related to it (certain clothes and make-up brands spring to mind), it would be a high value. While the Brazilian economy may be small compared to the American economy (and what economy isn't?) it's a bloody immense labyrinth compared to, say, Cuba.

Frankly, taking this money away would probably have large consequences for only a relative handful of people. And it's that "relative" you need to keep in mind, man. There are close to 15,000,000 people in RdJ state, IIRC, and only about 10 - 20,000 of them get their primary income through the sexual tourism market, dircetly or indirectly. So I really can't see how taking that away is going to create screams of rage throughout the carioca body public. Hell, raising the bus rate affects more people more drastically.

Now, as for my data being flawed, Gladiator, some of the ASSUMPTIONS may be, but the data itself is straight from IBGE. I'll be the first to admit that it's very rough and that many questions need to be cleared up. But you seem to be misreading something, becasue where in my analysis was it ever hinted that the sexual tourism budget amounts to 3% of the State's economy? Look at those numbers again: it's more like .3% - or less than 1/3rd of a percent.

That's quite a different number, amounting to one out of every ten tourist dollars. Significant, no doubt. So significant that it's beyond being fucked with for political reasons...? That's the question, isn't it?

My reading is "no" and the reading of some of the guys here is "yes".

Then again, when I started saying 3 years ago that a crusade was getting whipped up (though of course no one could say how big a crusade it was going to be and we still can't) many mongers also told me that "could never happen in Brazil". 'Course, I live here, speak the language, work with pros associations and go to meetings of the state's human rights council where they drum up this shit, so what the fuck could I possibly know about the political and economic context of prostitution in Rio?

Tiradentes
04-15-06, 22:09
"There are close to 15,000,000 people in RdJ state, IIRC, and only about 10 - 20,000 of them get their primary income through the sexual tourism market, dircetly or indirectly."

Mac;

I strongly disagree with you about the 10 to 20000 people affected by the 'sex' income. You did not factor in the fact that these girls are immediately spending most of their income in rio's economy ( and i am not talking about clothes or crap like that). This in turn gets circulated in so many ways in the brazilian economy, and a lot of people benefit from this.

Let me give a few examples:

1. My favorite girl from terma Centaurus recently bought a big beach front house in Niteroi - that's money circulated in the real estate.

2. On one occasion at the same terma, i happened to sit next to some girls (who weren't busy at the time). They were comparing what cars they were driving; mostly 'chevy Blazers'. That's money spent on the car industry, which is one of the largest revenue of the brazilian economy.

3. Lastly, I can not count the number of times I saw working girls , in their off days, scrolling in Rio Sul mall, buying expensive electronic stuff, etc.

My conclusion, is that, we foreigners do contribute alot to the brazilian and the rio's economy. So, please treat us nice. (ie no dirty looks from the brazilian federales at the airport)

Gladiator
04-15-06, 23:35
But you seem to be misreading something, becasue where in my analysis was it ever hinted that the sexual tourism budget amounts to 3% of the State's economy?

I didn't say 3% of RJ's economy, but 3% of RJ's overall tourism revenue, quoting your previous post.


So this makes sexual tourism less than 3% of the total tourist dollar here.

Macunaima
04-16-06, 17:49
I stand corrected, Gladiator. And if countries were run as rational business enterprises, you'd be right: they WOULDN'T sacrifice that much of their tourism revenue. But democracies AREN'T run as business enterprises: they make all sorts of non-economical decisions.

Furthermore, there's not just an economic "pull" factor on the pro-pros side of the equation you know. Brazil just LOST 40,000,000 is anti-AIDS grants from the U.S. because it refuses to denounce prostitution. It also received close to a cool million from the EU to work on a pilot anti-sexual tourism program. And these are just two examples, off the top of my head. In other words, anti-prostitution is almost as big an industry, in its own way, as prostitution. This is even more true when one takes into consideration the increased tax burden on society that prostitution represents. Now, the logical way around this is to fully legalize prostitution and tax it and use that to pay for the social costs. However, that's also the logical way around the "drug crisis", isn't it? Just because something makes economic sense doesn't mean that a government is going to do it any time soon.

Tiradentes, I hear you about your friend. Prostitution is a lot like football, however: for every Ronaldinho pulling down the mad cash, there are ten thousand would-be Ronaldinhos scratching out a living playing varzea football and dreaming of their big break. Your friend's experience, in other words, is not that of the average prostitute in this town. The experience of Michael Jordan doesn't mean that playing basketball is a likely and probable way for a kid to get ahead in this world.

Centaurus is well known throughout town as a very-upscale joint in the mid-range prostitution racket. The girls in Centaurus are a small but relatively happy minority and certainly not the average here. Compare your pal to the average girl warming a stool at Balconey, Tira. I guarantee that there are far many more in the second position than the first.

Now, you say...
"You did not factor in the fact that these girls are immediately spending most of their income in rio's economy ( and i am not talking about clothes or crap like that). This in turn gets circulated in so many ways in the brazilian economy, and a lot of people benefit from this."

Like I said above, I've looked into plenty of women's cash flow and that money doesn't circulate as widely as you think. 2/3rds of it stays right in the nightlife economy or a few closely related niches. Clothes aren't a small investment for these girls: they take up to 20% of the budget in some cases. Perfume, etc. takes out more. But the REAL culprits are the dozens of legal ways that what are effectively pimps can get their hands into these girls pockets. Just to get into Help costs 25 reais these days and there are always more women there than men. This means that, statistically, more women strike out every night at Help than turn a trick. So maybe you can count on two tricks a week at Help, if you're reasonably good. Just keeping yourself in play during that period is going to cost close to the value of a trick itself in door fees and booze, not to mention travel fees if you don't live in Copa. So at the end of the month, 1/3rd to 1/2 of your cash has been eaten up by work expenses alone. Woman after woman whom I've interviewed has bitched about this situation to no end. You've got to turn a trick a day for the game to really start paying off and few women can do that for very long. Those who can are, of course, prostitution's superstars and they make their wages accordingly.

And let's not even talk about the fact that many of these ladies are strung out on different brands of informal pharmaceutical products in order to keep up the pace of the job... And for those who aren't, there's plenty of just plain old booze to be paid for at tourist prices.

So when all things are considered, these girls - at least the more average among them - are lucky to be bringing a third of their pay out of Copa. Now, that's still a considerable amount. It's still enough to make it more worth a girl's while to be a Copa pro, say, than a hair-dresser in Realengo. But it isn't this earth-shaking amount of macro-economic fodder that you seem to think it is, Tira.

Closing down the Copa sexual tourism would probably be the equivalent of eliminating a big factory in economic terms. A bummer, to be sure, but Rio's seen and lived through worse. Bottom line: the economy here is far from addicted to the sexual tourism dollar.

Monger 3
04-25-06, 16:32
Tiradentes, I hear you about your friend. Prostitution is a lot like football, however: for every Ronaldinho pulling down the mad cash, there are ten thousand would-be Ronaldinhos scratching out a living playing varzea football and dreaming of their big break. Your friend's experience, in other words, is not that of the average prostitute in this town.

Centaurus is well known throughout town as a very-upscale joint in the mid-range prostitution racket. The girls in Centaurus are a small but relatively happy minority and certainly not the average here. Compare your pal to the average girl warming a stool at Balconey, Tira. I guarantee that there are far many more in the second position than the first.

Like I said above, I've looked into plenty of women's cash flow and that money doesn't circulate as widely as you think. 2/3rds of it stays right in the nightlife economy or a few closely related niches.

Mac,
I actually agree with you here. A hooker's operating margins in a city like Rio are probably less than 50%. Meaning, less than half her revenue actually turns into disposable income (and I am defining disposable income and money after hooker expenses...not money after hooker + life expenses).

I knew a Copa classified-apt hooker who charged something like 80R a night and only worked Friday night - Sunday night. She rented the place for a not so cheap rate for those nights...and had to also travel 2hrs to her home in Baixada in the North. Now...the breakeven number of tricks she would have to turn is about 5-7 to cover her costs (rent and travel and food), which is not an insignificant number...

I knew another Copa hooker who worked the restaurant outside of Help. I saw her twice in a 5 day span, and saw her warm seats at the restaurant on the other nights I didnt 'see' her. She also traveled 1.5hrs each way to her hood in the North and basically said she only averaged 3-5 tricks a week...good weeks were none (which was not an infrequent occurence) and busy weeks were 10-15 (around holidays, etc.). I've met several average hookers, and most are not living it up the way some of the Terma pros have made it for themselves...

Also, unlike truly 3rd world dumps, Brazil has very significant economic contributors beyond sex tourism. As Mac says, it can do without the sex tourism, and is trying to do without it in many ways...

Macunaima
04-28-06, 17:03
Remember Bruna the Surfer Chic, who we discussed below? Well, she finally made it to the New York Times. Remember, you heard about her here first! LOL





She Who Controls Her Body Can Upset Her Countrymen

By LARRY ROHTER
Published: April 27, 2006
SÃO PAULO, Brazil — She goes by the name Bruna, the Little Surfer Girl, and gives new meaning to the phrase "kiss and tell." First in a blog that quickly became the country's most popular and now in a best-selling memoir, she has titillated Brazilians and become a national celebrity with her graphic, day-by-day accounts of life as a call girl here.

Lalo de Almeida for The New York Times
A memoir by Raquel Pacheco, a prostitute who calls herself Bruna, the Little Surfer Girl, has sold 100,000 copies.
But it is not just her canny use of the Internet that has made Bruna, whose real name is Raquel Pacheco, a cultural phenomenon. By going public with her exploits, she has also upended convention and set off a vigorous debate about sexual values and practices, revealing a country that is not always as uninhibited as the world often assumes.
Interviewed at the office of her publisher here, Ms. Pacheco, 21, said the blog that became her vehicle to notoriety emerged almost by accident. But once it started, she was quick to spot its commercial potential and its ability to transform her from just another program girl, as high-class prostitutes are called in Brazil, into an entrepreneur of the erotic.
"In the beginning, I just wanted to vent my feelings, and I didn't even put up my photograph or phone number," she said. "I wanted to show what goes on in the head of a program girl, and I couldn't find anything on the Net like that. I thought that if I was curious about it, others would be too."
Ms. Pacheco parlayed that inquisitiveness into a best seller, "The Scorpion's Sweet Poison," that has made her a sort of sexual guru. A mixture of autobiography and how-to manual, her book has sold more than 100,000 copies since it was published late last year, and has just been translated into Spanish.
At book signings, Ms. Pacheco said, "80 percent of the public is women, which I didn't expect at all," because most of the readers of her blog appeared to be men, including customers who "wanted to see how I had rated their performance." As she sees it, the high level of female interest in her sexual experiences reflects a gap here between perceptions about sex and the reality.
"I think there's a lot of hypocrisy and a bit of fear involved," she said. "Brazilian women have this sexy image, of being at ease and uninhibited in bed. But anyone who lives here knows that's not true."
Carnival and the general sensuality that seems to permeate the atmosphere can give the impression that Brazil is unusually permissive and liberated, especially compared with other predominantly Roman Catholic nations. But experts say the real situation is far more complicated, which explains both Bruna's emergence and the strong reactions she has provoked.
"Brazil is a country of contradictions, as much in relation to sexuality as anything else," said Richard Parker, a Columbia University anthropologist who is the author of "Bodies, Pleasures and Passions: Sexual Culture in Contemporary Brazil," and has taught and worked here. "There is a certain spirit of transgression in daily life, but there is also a lot of moralism."
As a result, some Brazilians have applauded Bruna's frankness and say it is healthy to get certain taboos out in the open, like what both she and academic researchers say is a national penchant for anal sex. But others decry her celebrity as one more noxious manifestation of free-market economics and globalization.
"This is the fruit of a type of society in which people will do anything to get money, including selling their bodies to be able to buy cellular phones," said Maria Clara Lucchetti Bingemer, a newspaper columnist and professor of theology at Catholic University in Rio de Janeiro. "We've always had prostitution, but it was a hidden, prohibited thing. Now it's a professional option like anything else, and that's the truly shocking thing."
But Gabriela Silva Leite, a sociologist and former prostitute who now directs a prostitutes' advocacy group, argues that such concerns are exaggerated. "It's not a book like this that is going to stimulate prostitution, but the lack of education and opportunities for women," she said. "I don't think Bruna glamorizes things at all. On the contrary, you can regard the book as a kind of warning, because she talks of the unpleasant atmosphere and all the difficulties she faced."
Part of the controversy stems simply from Ms. Pacheco's forthright and unapologetic tone about her work. Traditionally, Brazilians feel sympathy for the poor woman selling her body to feed her children; she is seen as a victim of the country's glaring social and economic inequalities.
But Ms. Pacheco does not fit that mold. She comes from a middle-class family and turned to prostitution, she said, both as rebellion against her strict parents and because she wanted to be economically independent.
That a woman is now talking and behaving as Brazilian men often have may also offend some. Roberto da Matta, a leading anthropologist and social commentator, noted that even though role reversals were an important part of Carnival, other areas of Brazilian life, including sexual relationships, could be quite rigid and hierarchical.
Under the system of machismo that prevails in Brazil and other Latin American countries, "only a man has a right to command his own sex life, and that control is seen as a basic attribute of masculinity," he explained. "So when a young, attractive, intelligent woman appears and says she is a prostitute, you have a complete inversion of roles, leaving men fragile in a terrain where she is the boss, not them."
For all her willingness to break taboos, though, Ms. Pacheco's current life plan is conventional. She has a steady boyfriend and hopes to marry him, and is studying for the national college entrance exam, with a mind to majoring in psychology.
"Being Bruna was a role that left its mark on me, but I can't abandon her," Ms. Pacheco said. "There are people who still call me Bruna, and I don't mind, but I wouldn't want to be her for the rest of my life."
Nor is Ms. Pacheco immune to the influence of pudor, a concept important throughout Latin America that combines elements of modesty, decency, propriety and shame. In her book, rather than write out the words commonly used on the street to describe sexual acts and organs, she prints only their first letters, with dots indicating what everyone already knows.
"I think it's quite vulgar to say the whole word," she explained. "But I didn't want to be too formal, either."

Ee2002
04-29-06, 10:28
Sure did Mac,After you posted it back in Nov,I bought that book in Rio.Good book, recommended if you can read Port.

Gladiator
04-30-06, 03:59
Richard Parker, a Columbia University anthropologist who is the author of "Bodies, Pleasures and Passions: Sexual Culture in Contemporary Brazil," and has taught and worked here.


Macu,

Thanks for quoting that article, it's interesting.

Have you read this book by R Parker? If so, what do you think of it?

I'm just curious and want to know if it's worth reading it.

Macunaima
05-02-06, 15:01
Parker's book is worth reading, but it's been heavily criticized for buying too much into the "Brazil is an exotic sexual country" theory. I've seen some decent thesises which take Parker apart. Nevertheless, it's worth reading, if you keep your skepticals on.

Tiradentes
05-03-06, 03:28
Is this guy for real?

Anthony Garotinho, the former governor of Rio, is on a hunger strike, because he doesn't like the coverage he's getting from the media. My question is how effective will this novela be? Will the brazilian people feel any symapthy for a rich chubby man (who probably need to go on diet anyaway).?

Noting that 50 millions brazilian go to sleep each day hungry, not because they wanna look good on Ipanema Beach, but because they can't afford to buy food. I tell you these people.

And one more thing, why do you cariocas keep on electing these Garotinhos clowns?

Rosario did a terrible job in her state, compared to the jobs done by the governors of SP and MG.

Macunaima
05-03-06, 15:26
It's for real and believe me, we're as puzzled as you. I can't, for the life of me, figure out what Fat Tony thinks he's going to gain with this manuever. In one fell swoop, he's become the laughing stock of Brazil. It's as if Clinton had decided to go on a hunger strike because the media was picking on him over Lewinsky. The press would have had a field day with that, and they're having a field day with Chubby here, too.

The only CONCEIVABLE way he could get any sympathy would be for him to really, visually drop some 30 kilos and suffer. Knowing Fat Tony, however, that's about as likely as Clinton staying away from a Mickey D's for a month. And even then, all he'd get would be a nice slap on the back from the media and a "Well, you did your level best, son."

The only folks who are impressed with this are his most brain-dead supporters, who are all going to vote for him anyway. To everyone else, he's just become the biggest joke in the country.

So the question isn't "is this going to have an effect?" because we know the answer to that already: no, it won't, unless by "effect" you mean to deflate Garotinho's already low political capital even further.

The question is, what does a normally wily political in-fighter like Garotinho think he's going to get out of this? THAT'S the question that's got me up at nights. Either he's finally completely self-destructing before our eyes, or there's something up that size XXL sleeve that we haven't seen yet.

Jan 156
09-12-06, 06:37
Termas Busted?

I have a problem with Rio if they bust Termas and only arrest Blacks yankees.The best advice for a Black American is to make a strong effort to thwart the stereotype. Many women in Rio have told me they don't like Black Americans (and others don't have a problem). The stereotype is someone who talks in a loud voice, throws money around, and acts superior. Speaking softly, with a lot of sincerity, and treating all human beings as if they worth the same will melt a lot of hearts. The cops in this case have either picked up on the girls' prejudice or else feel a similar one themselves. Americans often talk in a loud voice when they travel, and I can understand many people finding this a bit offensive. In Thailand, the prejudice is against Arabs, who have a reputation for acting as if others were a lower form of life (many girls will not service them and some cafes have signs up saying no Arabs). It is not so much that they are rude but there is a clash of cultures.

This doesn't make it right, but if you are going fro a short visit it may be something you have to decide how to deal with. Demanding your rights in Brasil, whether with a hooker or with the police, will not get you far. Working with gentleness and respect will get more results. It may sound like common sense and maybe what you would do anyway, but in Brasil it will move more mountains than in developed countries.

El Austriaco
10-16-06, 22:01
Haven't heard from you in a while, and I miss your insights. How is your book progressing? Any things you would like to share?

EA

Jan 156
03-03-08, 12:59
On the orgasm issue generally...


Well, with rergards to a woman's orgasm, again, all I have to say is this...

It doesn't take a good actress to fake one as they are so internal and subjective. In fact, I suspect only the really poor actresses will go into hystrionics: the good ones will just lay back, think of how they're gonna pay there bills, sigh a bit and squeeze their muscles.

Secondly, when you go down on a pro, you are giving her a very, very clear sign of what YOU want. It doesn't take a particularly smart woman to figure this one out and thus receive a cue for the show.

Finally, it's obvious that you enjoy this sort of thing, and you are paying to enjoy it. This means that you're about as far away from an objective observor as possible: you are in fact paying to consume an illusion.

Now, as I said before, I HAVE seen pros ocasionally claim that they cum with a client, but this is doen in a very off-handed and sort of "who'd-a-thunkit" kind of way. This isn't the style of women who are secretly admitting to violating a taboo.

I CERTAINLY do not think pros cum 20% of the time, even if you go down on them and every pro I've ever interviewed, talked, to read has expressed amazment that their clients can be so ego-centric as to believe that they are with them for some other reason - any other reason - than cash.

Bottom-line: we're a very cordial country and while we may not be as "developed" as the U.s. in economic terms, we are HIGHLY developed in terms of social relations. After 20 years of life here, I'm constantly amazed at the subtly and power of Brazilian machiavellian manipulation of emotion. Perhaps "Machiavellian" isn't the right term. In any case, I feel - and I think most long-term residents of this country will agree with this - that there's NO WAY to conclusively tell what someone really thinks about you here and if the claim to love you after an hour - or even a week, for that matter - watch the fuck out. I know of no sophisticated, urbane and experienced Brazilian, male or female, who would ever see these kinds of claims with anything but deep suspicion, for all that they might smile at the person uttering them.

Macu wrote such sound stuff I was re-reading some of it. The line that caught my attention was,
"Now, as I said before, I HAVE seen pros ocasionally claim that they cum with a client, but this is doen in a very off-handed and sort of "who'd-a-thunkit" kind of way."

I thought this was such a clever description. It chimes perfectly with the (non-Brasilian) descriptions of women I've dated who have been GDPs at an earlier period of their life. When a person is doing such a quantity of sex as a GDP, what *they* put in is lots. What an *individual punter* puts in is fairly negligible except in terms of cash and sometimes being a generally nice and easy-going trick.

Apart from the obvious (that Macu mentions - it fulfils the male fantasy) there are some other reasons why a woman will encourage a man to go down on her.

a) it makes him feel special that he has 'made her feel special' which makes him a better business prospect. It means there's a nice set emotional pattern to emulate.

b) practically, which is more effort, going down on a guy or letting him go down on you? Doesn't take a genius to work that out. And if you get paid the same . . .

I quite enjoy it if I manage to 'give' a GDP an orgasm occasionally - even more so if I believe it was a real one (someone on this thread spouted some stuff from Wiki which Macu pointed out is near to rubbish - the correct non-fake-able signs of orgasm are delinieated in Masters and Johnson's volume, Human Sexual response. Stuff like changes in the aureole and skin blushes, and they don't even happen with all women, so sometime there is no scientific sign at all. And the contraction stuff can all be learnt.) But if she has an orgasm while I'm down on her, or in her, I treat it as Macu described - I am a minor detail - in her mind it is her that has 'achieved' an orgasm - I am no more significant to her in that respect than a salt cellar at a good meal. {I don't care too much cos the reason I go down on her is that I like the smell and taste. Her pleasure from my pov is window dressing.}

Macu got flamed so persistently that he left. I hope some woman is going down on him at this moment and giving him more pleasure than he got on here lol. ;-)

Lazy Monger
03-13-08, 03:03
If you look at the pictures or videos made by the average American monger, most are recreations of American porn rather than a reflection of the sexual behavior of the local population. The reality of economics affords them the opportunity to realize certain fantasies otherwise not available to them. Being economically more viable than their third world counterparts allow American women to be more selective about whom they choose to do those nasty little things that we all love but it doesn't mean they won't do them.

While mongering has provided me with some cheap, sport fucking experiences, however stateside "girlfriend sex" is where I have had my more adventurous times. While we compare American porn to Brazilian porn it is important to note that the American porn industry is undergoing a crisis because of the proliferation of free amateur porn on the internet. Not to mention that as hard as it is at times to get a pro from a popular sex tourist destination to take a picture would we see a phenomenon such as "Girls Gone Wild" happening in many of these destinations.

If you are in the right demographic, non pro sex in the states trumps pros in Brazil. It all comes down to access.

Dwilso39
09-17-08, 11:29
Well, I'm not a consumer of sexual services, BB, so I'm the wrong guy to ask about any given call girl service. But regarding "university students"...

Here in Brazil we have two kinds of universities: the very good and the very bad. there is hardly any middle ground, as there is in the States. We do not have, for example, universities like, say, CU Boulder, UC San Diego or the University of Oklahoma, all perfectly satisfactory, if unspectacular institutions. Here, in order to get into a good school, one needs to pass what's called the vestibular, which is a very tough entrance exam - worse than the SAT, ACT or GRE combined. If you don't make it, you don't get in, no matter what your connections.

On the low end, however, there are a ton of schools which will take pretty much near anyone, as long as they have cash. Globo did a story a couple of years ago about how they managed to place an illiterate guy in UniverCidade he in town.

All of the pros I've met who are in school come from these kind of universities and, in every case so far, their entry into prostituion predates their entry into school. They are thus not pros in order to pay for school: they are in school in order to prepare for their leaving prostituion. usually, this escape strategy is combined with others, such as looking for a husband or getting overseas.

So the idea that being a "university girl" is somehow synonymous with "not really" being a prostitute doesn't quite work here. Few women in good schools turn tricks. Why? They don't need to. The federal and state schools - which are generally the best schools in Brazil - are free.

If a girl tells you she's studying full-time at UFRJ, UFF, UFFR, UERJ or PUC, it's something to be impressed with. Most other schools are basically "buy a diploma" mills and even then, few pros manage to make their way completely through their coursework. why? Because it becomes obvious after a year or two studying at these places that their diplomas usually aren't worth the paper they are printed on. There are some exceptions, such as Cândido Mendes (UCAM), perhaps, but they are few and far between. Pros aren't stupid and usually figure out that they are being robbed pretty quickly.

You are not going to find many bonafide professional women and university students from good schools turbning tricks because usually they don't have to. There are, of course, exceptions, but presenting oneself as a poor girl who needs to turn tricks in order to study is a very old strategy here.

Full Throttle, I've been very open about what the work I'm doing is going to result in: an anthropological study of sexual tourism and prostitution in Copacabana. This will almost certainly be in book form and, if all goes well, it'll be ready about three years from now. In the meantime, it's articles, articles, articles, work with Davida and the occasional conference presentation.

I've said this from day one, but that was a while ago, so maybe you didn't see it. In any case, it's no deep secret. :-)

Whether or not a pro ocasionally cums really isn't at issue. I'm certain it does happen from time to time. But I'm also QUITE certain that a guy who goes down on a pro is giving her a VERY clear message: he wants her to cum. And the customer is king in this business.

Frankly, the only people who are REALLY able to tell are the women themselves, and they deny it. They know more about their experiences that we do, so I have no reason to doubt their word. It's not like it's a stigma to come with a client: hell, most pros probably want to, in fact. Anything to kill the boredom.

Most folks don't realize this, but aside from brief spurts of terror, sex work is usually incredibly fucking boring. You are being paid, essentially, to fulfill someone's fantasy. Mostly this means shut up and look nice and feign pleasure while the other person natters on about their life. This is true whether the pro and/or the client is a man or a woman. I used to get paid big bucks not for dancing, but for sitting in booths afterwards, drinking ginger ale at 15 bucks a glass and smiling, while the Junior League from East Sheepshag, Missouri, got wasted and bitched about their husbands, jobs, kids and life in general.

That part is basically the same everywhere. We see it every night in Copa, don't we?I have to just say "thank you"; you have de-bunked one of the all time GDP lies. The questions is: why do they continue to feed their clients these lies.

BTW, women in America do the say thing!

Sperto
09-18-08, 07:21
I doubt that Macunaima will respond to your post.

His post that you quoted was almost three years old.

What are you doing nowadays, Macunaima?

Exec Talent
09-18-08, 13:24
I doubt that Macunaima will respond to your post.
His post that you quoted was almost three years old.

What are you doing nowadays, Macunaima?When he was relegated to his own thread and no longer FELT he was the center of attention here, he decided to take over and bore people on another forum.

Member #4156
05-21-09, 05:30
Hey, I actually enjoyed sitting back watching him drive some of you mongers crazy. :)

JohnnyBraz
05-21-09, 09:25
I find some off the stuff interesting that mac has to say, some to be very good information. Can't understand why he does it though, if he isn't a monger.