PDA

View Full Version : American Politics



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58

Admin
01-01-06, 02:00
Thread Starter.

Admin
01-01-06, 02:00
Thread Starter.

Columpuss
06-05-06, 08:43
people are people wherever you go, never let your guard down and allways look around you and get a feel for the area.

they take your picture and send it to guys down the street you have never ever seen before. the cell phone is a great tool in the hands of scammer. just do not be over trusting with anyone even guys from your own country.
be ready, play safe. b. b.

well said bb

my pet peeve: some brothers in this forum comming from a far away country, i won't say where, but let just say that the abbreviation is u.s.a, where there is a highest hommocidal rate in the world, they take out a small portion of their incomes to vacation in the phillipines. yet they do some dump things like get tricked out by some street hustler in some card games and lost couple of hundred bucks and yet, to them, the country is dangerous and full of thieves.

i would rather lose two or three franklins in a card game than get my head blown up by some "loner" in a fast food restaurant in the so-called "the greatest country in the world."

HenryV
06-05-06, 15:36
the best judge of a great country is the number of people dying to get in.



well said bb

my pet peeve: some brothers in this forum comming from a far away country, i won't say where, but let just say that the abbreviation is u.s.a, where there is a highest hommocidal rate in the world, they take out a small portion of their incomes to vacation in the phillipines. yet they do some dump things like get tricked out by some street hustler in some card games and lost couple of hundred bucks and yet, to them, the country is dangerous and full of thieves.

i would rather lose two or three franklins in a card game than get my head blown up by some "loner" in a fast food restaurant in the so-called "the greatest country in the world."

Starchild2012
06-05-06, 18:09
El Socio06 ...You need help....I was in the same road as you are right now...in matters of getting girl....otherwise my life is as usual in dumps....I cannot guide you to become rich and succesfull or be a somebody..but by reading www.askmen.com doc love article ..i can gaurentee you that you never be alone in your life even if you have pennies in your pants...you will always have a girlfriend....BUT to improve your social status or to get money...sorry dude...can't guide you....

Bill Buxton
06-05-06, 18:52
do any mongers that go to the p.i feel good going into most restaurants an get greeted by a 12 gauge shotgun carrying security guard?or the bank,or embassy with a line of men with m-16 rifles?do beggars chase you down the streets at home?do the cops let you go when caught for a seatbelt violation after you give 100 p'"2 dollars" with your paperwork?can you be charged with a greater crime at home and get out of jail by negotiation with the cops without a trial,heering,court?do you have to buy property in someone else's name so you can own the property, and then get kicked out later on?can you pay local property taxes 2-3 times and watch the city official spend your money, and keep coming back for more?can you go past a line of waiting people20-30 or more and walk up the stairs "box of chocolate in hand" get your paperwork done in minutes at home?the answer is no,and that's why feeling safe here is not high on my list.u.s.a. that's all i know for the past 40 years right or wrong.but you will have your day in court and the cops will work for you rich or poor without extracting money's from your pocket.

yes time spent is a good way to judge facts, and opinions, and a six month stay i feel gave me some great insight into many things there.you can get killed walking your dogie anywhere in the world.but i do not worry about corruption meeting me face to face on the street at the level that there is here.i have never once had a cop want to sell me a girl for sex while he was in uniform!please tell me where else in the world they do this?mothers pimping out the kids and getting you to pay the cops to get out of jail,after they split the take.

bar girls, working and going out with guys for sex-money and later crying [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)?and being with the guys many times before."the marines on trial there for [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)".what a wild west show this place is,do what you want and "pay" later.the problem her is not all with the locals it with the influx of the road scholars from everywhere else in the world.the arrogant ones "that could not poor [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) out of a rubber boot with the instructions scribbled on the heel".the guys that think "i am rich i can do what i want".it's a reaction from locals driven by the foreign influx and thats the outcome get what we can before they go home.you might say not true,but how can these things happen if the law is the law?you are not guilty until prov-en so,not here just pay first.i guess you get from life what you put into it, but what about the foreign guy 2-3 years back that was shot 15-20 times outside angelis while riding a motorcycle and his wife sitting right behind him and never getting a scratch?now they say she and some cops were behind it for insurance and othermoneys.why did the government say that it was just a murder.and after investigation by outsiders found to have links to cops,local government.why did the government take or try to take the new airport terminal thats built from the german company that built it????

why do they sell human live bodies of children in manila for 10,000 p?200 u.s. dollars.this is a ring that was caught in march selling live people for organ's,i might still have the front page newspaper clipping here.so i guess i will take my chances here, u.s. and wait my turn for the upcoming shit storm hitting my area.own my belongings here and know that they will not be taken by anyone that wants them.pay my taxes and get full credit at the time of the transaction. and not see some thief with his family on vacation using the tax money he just collected from me to subsidize his trip at some resort in the p.i.

b.b.

Chocha Monger
06-06-06, 06:13
El Socio06,

No money equals no pussy. It does not matter where you go. You always pay for it one way or another. You might get a "freebie" if the woman thinks that she can get more out of you later but you have to present good prospects for that.

Based on what you said it appears that money, or a lack of it rather, is your most immediate problem. You need to break out of the low income Latino profile and not just because of pussy. Take a look at your financial situation and see if there is anything that you can do without e.g. cable TV, bloated cell phone plan or more car than you can afford. Next, take a serious look at what you can do to improve your earnings, maybe your job pays more for people with certification; if that is the case then get certified using the money you squeezed out of your budget cuts. Lastly, finish your 4-yr degree, you are already half-way there and with all of the evening classes and online options there is not reason not to do so. Taking one class a semester is better than nothing and will bring you closer to your goals.

None of this is going to be easy and your hand may well be the only pussy that you get on a regular basis for the next few years, but when you eventually get a job that provides a good income it would be worth the sacrifice. Forget about LTR in the US it will only bring you more drama. There are fine mojadas who work and would hook up with you but you have to able to offer them shelter at least.

Escort King
06-06-06, 06:36
El Socio06,

No money equals no pussy. It does not matter where you go. You always pay for it one way or another. You might get a "freebie" if the woman thinks that she can get more out of you later but you have to present good prospects for that.

Based on what you said it appears that money, or a lack of it rather, is your most immediate problem. You need to break out of the low income Latino profile and not just because of pussy. Take a look at your financial situation and see if there is anything that you can do without e.g. cable TV, bloated cell phone plan or more car than you can afford. Next, take a serious look at what you can do to improve your earnings, maybe your job pays more for people with certification; if that is the case then get certified using the money you squeezed out of your budget cuts. Lastly, finish your 4-yr degree, you are already half-way there and with all of the evening classes and online options there is not reason not to do so. Taking one class a semester is better than nothing and will bring you closer to your goals.

None of this is going to be easy and your hand may well be the only pussy that you get on a regular basis for the next few years, but when you eventually get a job that provides a good income it would be worth the sacrifice. Forget about LTR in the US it will only bring you more drama. There are fine mojadas who work and would hook up with you but you have to able to offer them shelter at least.

You have it right there... no matter the country you are always paying for it... my child support would support most guys in South America with a chica and a few visits to the casas... get the schooling or find that right job... at 200k plus I never have enough

Surfer
06-07-06, 00:30
been away from the PI, and internet boards about the PI, but it seems little has changed. Yes there are scammers there, more than in most countries perhaps, but there are not many places with those sweet LBFMs available for ll nighters for less than the cost of a good dinner in the US.

The US is currently a VERY screwed up country too with the worst government in our history. But the "culture of corruption" in the republican party is done on such a grand scale (Abramoff alone put MILLIONS of dirty dollars into the hands of crooked Congressman) that the poor Filipinos seeking a few Piso seem like Pikers in comparison.

Also, despite driving in the PI NUMEROUS times, and getting pulled over twice (for legitimate infractions of which I was guilty), BOTH times I was let go without paying a single Piso. In the US you would have had to go to traffic school at minimum. I was NEVER pulled over for a made up violation, NEVER!

One time a taxi driver attempted to overcharge me for taking my surfboard to the airport. We were arguing in the street when a drunken PNP officer out of uniform (he showed me his ID) camev up and asked ME (the WHITE GUY) what the problem was. I told him the taxi driver was trying to overcharge me because I was American, then he lit into the driver (in Tagalog so I could only understand a portion of the exchange) and threatened him with violence if he did not accept the fare I was offering. He got red in the face and was SO angry both the cop's wife and I were worried he was going to pull his gun on the driver, she told me so as she tried to calm him down. The driver eventually relented and I profusely thanked the cop. He never asked me for a single Piso for his assistance.

None of this is to discount the presence of crooked cops, or scams, in the PI. You DO need to use good judgment at all times. But reading these whiny reports about how lousy the PI is, and how great America is, make me want to wretch just as surely as if I had eaten Balut. To ALL those who think shit don't stink in the US (most Filipinos think that but they can be forgiven as their views of the US are based on television, NOT reality) I say "STAY HOME THEN.

On a BRIGHTER note: I wish there were more expats in the PI like CanContrib, and LESS of the sex tourists who mistreat the babae. Yes some GROs are cheaters and swindlers, but there are also LOTS of very sweet, guilless, girls who come from desperately poor families with no alternative but to send their daughters to Manila, Cebu, Angeles etc. And MANY of these girls are manipulated and abused by foreign sex tourists (The Whites are almost as bad as the Japanese who are not nearly as bad as the Arabs).

My point is that guys need to wake up and smell the roses. A large part of the reason for the scammers is because they have previously been cheated by sex tourists from rich countries and they have learned to turn the tables and bvecome victimizer rather than victim.

Dashing Don
06-07-06, 04:29
From Colombia to PI, Surfer's reports have the same theme: how the big bad sex tourists are mistreating those poor, underpriveleged gals who sell their pussies.

What bullshit!

Most mongers I've met are well-educated, well-travelled and altogether reasonable. Likewise, most PI bar girls I've met are fun and reasonable.

I'm sure that there are exceptions to both groups. But why the obsession with the exceptions? And the virtuous, holier-than-thou tone?

Come on Surfer! Why don't you just admit that you work for a NGO that is trying to impose american values worldwide. Or that you are deep cover for NOW (National Organization for Women).

I can barely prevent my stomach from heaving when I read your stuff on the Colombia boards but to have to read it here is just too much, especially after the fight we had to get rid of your friends, On The To and Junior.

I was thus moved:


There was once a monger called Surfer
Mostly he read, never moving his cursor
But then lo and behold!
He emerged to criticize and scold
Till all wished he'd return to being a lurker.


Don

BH Bound
06-07-06, 05:24
Hit the gym, and give off an air of confidence and money...while working to acheive that monetary goal by going back to school and making some budget cuts. Remember, in this world nowadays, image is everything. Play up your latin lover stereotype...are you boricua cuz i know crazy amounts of women who hunt just for peurto rican men. You just gotta hit the gym, eat right, and work towards getting your wallet fatter. It's easier said than done, but it can be done.

Total Package
06-07-06, 05:27
hey dude,

it is because of [deleted by admin] like you i never choose to make posts or share my photos. surfer has made more quality posts than you have ever shagged in women. you are all [deleted by admin] and someone who has to make up multiple identifications here on the isg to amuse yourself and who has to live in a fantasy world as you are nothing but a wannabee monger. surfer i hope you just ignore this [deleted by admin] and keep up your good work or do as i do and not post jack shit. [CodeWord132] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord132) don and your multiple id's get really old in a hurry and i can see by the number of comments other members make to your posts they are all sick of you and your bullshit as well. from what i can see not one member has made a comment to a post you and your ids have made. that should tell you something or do you just not get it?. you really must have serious issues that you have to spend so much time on a computer writing posts to your various identifications on here. i see by reading your previous posts you seem to be a real trouble maker, and if it wasn't for your friendship with jackson i am sure you would would not be here along with your prov 01 and guinness. i am sure i am making this post on behalf of many other members on here [deleted by admin].

editor's note: this report was edited in accordance with the forum's zero tolerance policy regarding reports containing any personal attacks or derogatory comments directed towards another forum member or the forum membership in general.

please be advised that forum members who succeed in having three or more of their reports deleted for personal attacks, racial epithets or other derogatory comments, will be banned under the forum's serial antagonist policy.

Columpuss
06-07-06, 08:21
bb

corrupted cops, pimps selling kids or whatever it is, beggars chasing you down the street, the big picture here is nobody dies. no ****s kidnapping kid, [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), mutilate and kill them.
guess where i live? a little corner of the world where it breeds serial killers
300 points for the correct response. and no it's not some 3rd world country.

my uncle has his retirement savings wiped out by some dope heads running what was once, one of the biggest companies in the world and was once endorsed by the president. guess the company and the president, and no he didn't take any contribution money because people don't do that in the west.

the syndrome here is, it is ok to be stabbed by my brother than robbed by my neighbor.

Bill Buxton
06-07-06, 13:10
I am not saying that the states are great just giving my personal feelings and insight into potential problems as I viewed them.PERSONAL MY OPINION not trying to say anything other than what might pop up for a new guy entering the wild west.

And after my 6 month visit I would rather be there than some other so called great places in the world.Visit is the term not retire or escape whatever is closing in on me like many others have.Where else can you get by on a small retirement check every month and have an 18 year old gf that thinks you are rich?Like I said many times,IF ALL THE FOREIGN GUYS WERE RICH THEY WOULD NOT LIVE HERE.Likethe foreigner that told me his bar was making money,sure,taking in pesos and spending the same.I said take in dollars,pounds,euro,and spend pesos and then you will be making money.Everyone here wants to be a big fish,but remember it is a small pond,not hard.The big fish keep on doing what they do in there own country and don't try to impress the wizards here.How hard is it anyway?most everyone I knew here was drunk or well on his way by noon.Delusions of grandeur and foolish people loosing there money I heard it all go figure.Ask a bar girl where the foreigners leave there brains? at the airport they say.

Through the eyes of a regular guy, B.B...

HenryV
06-07-06, 15:29
Wow - is this the begining of paid political anouncements on this board?

I didn't sign on for this stuff.


been away from the PI, and internet boards about the PI, but it seems little has changed. Yes there are scammers there, more than in most countries perhaps, but there are not many places with those sweet LBFMs available for ll nighters for less than the cost of a good dinner in the US.

The US is currently a VERY screwed up country too with the worst government in our history. But the "culture of corruption" in the republican party is done on such a grand scale (Abramoff alone put MILLIONS of dirty dollars into the hands of crooked Congressman) that the poor Filipinos seeking a few Piso seem like Pikers in comparison.

Also, despite driving in the PI NUMEROUS times, and getting pulled over twice (for legitimate infractions of which I was guilty), BOTH times I was let go without paying a single Piso. In the US you would have had to go to traffic school at minimum. I was NEVER pulled over for a made up violation, NEVER!

One time a taxi driver attempted to overcharge me for taking my surfboard to the airport. We were arguing in the street when a drunken PNP officer out of uniform (he showed me his ID) camev up and asked ME (the WHITE GUY) what the problem was. I told him the taxi driver was trying to overcharge me because I was American, then he lit into the driver (in Tagalog so I could only understand a portion of the exchange) and threatened him with violence if he did not accept the fare I was offering. He got red in the face and was SO angry both the cop's wife and I were worried he was going to pull his gun on the driver, she told me so as she tried to calm him down. The driver eventually relented and I profusely thanked the cop. He never asked me for a single Piso for his assistance.

None of this is to discount the presence of crooked cops, or scams, in the PI. You DO need to use good judgment at all times. But reading these whiny reports about how lousy the PI is, and how great America is, make me want to wretch just as surely as if I had eaten Balut. To ALL those who think shit don't stink in the US (most Filipinos think that but they can be forgiven as their views of the US are based on television, NOT reality) I say "STAY HOME THEN.

On a BRIGHTER note: I wish there were more expats in the PI like CanContrib, and LESS of the sex tourists who mistreat the babae. Yes some GROs are cheaters and swindlers, but there are also LOTS of very sweet, guilless, girls who come from desperately poor families with no alternative but to send their daughters to Manila, Cebu, Angeles etc. And MANY of these girls are manipulated and abused by foreign sex tourists (The Whites are almost as bad as the Japanese who are not nearly as bad as the Arabs).

My point is that guys need to wake up and smell the roses. A large part of the reason for the scammers is because they have previously been cheated by sex tourists from rich countries and they have learned to turn the tables and bvecome victimizer rather than victim.

Bill Buxton
06-07-06, 21:44
been away from the PI, and internet boards about the PI, but it seems little has changed. Yes there are scammers there, more than in most countries perhaps, but there are not many places with those sweet LBFMs available for ll nighters for less than the cost of a good dinner in the US.

The US is currently a VERY screwed up country too with the worst government in our history. But the "culture of corruption" in the republican party is done on such a grand scale (Abramoff alone put MILLIONS of dirty dollars into the hands of crooked Congressman) that the poor Filipinos seeking a few Piso seem like Pikers in comparison.

Also, despite driving in the PI NUMEROUS times, and getting pulled over twice (for legitimate infractions of which I was guilty), BOTH times I was let go without paying a single Piso. In the US you would have had to go to traffic school at minimum. I was NEVER pulled over for a made up violation, NEVER!

One time a taxi driver attempted to overcharge me for taking my surfboard to the airport. We were arguing in the street when a drunken PNP officer out of uniform (he showed me his ID) camev up and asked ME (the WHITE GUY) what the problem was. I told him the taxi driver was trying to overcharge me because I was American, then he lit into the driver (in Tagalog so I could only understand a portion of the exchange) and threatened him with violence if he did not accept the fare I was offering. He got red in the face and was SO angry both the cop's wife and I were worried he was going to pull his gun on the driver, she told me so as she tried to calm him down. The driver eventually relented and I profusely thanked the cop. He never asked me for a single Piso for his assistance.

None of this is to discount the presence of crooked cops, or scams, in the PI. You DO need to use good judgment at all times. But reading these whiny reports about how lousy the PI is, and how great America is, make me want to wretch just as surely as if I had eaten Balut. To ALL those who think shit don't stink in the US (most Filipinos think that but they can be forgiven as their views of the US are based on television, NOT reality) I say "STAY HOME THEN.

On a BRIGHTER note: I wish there were more expats in the PI like CanContrib, and LESS of the sex tourists who mistreat the babae. Yes some GROs are cheaters and swindlers, but there are also LOTS of very sweet, guilless, girls who come from desperately poor families with no alternative but to send their daughters to Manila, Cebu, Angeles etc. And MANY of these girls are manipulated and abused by foreign sex tourists (The Whites are almost as bad as the Japanese who are not nearly as bad as the Arabs).

My point is that guys need to wake up and smell the roses. A large part of the reason for the scammers is because they have previously been cheated by sex tourists from rich countries and they have learned to turn the tables and bvecome victimizer rather than victim.I think this board is about info and it was a culture shock to look at a shotgunyealding guard at a mickey D's when trying to eat my happy meal.The raod checks by PNP holding an M-16.The reason I posted this is because several guys including myself until I went there never had the experience in the differences of there own countries verses this one.It is not just about fucking some bar gal and telling about how many times you got your NUT,and weather she spit afterwards.I guarantee that many guys if they have the time to stay in the Philippines 4-6 months will have similar things they saw or heard about from longtime players.How hard is it to get a gal in any area of the P.I. Anyway,toothless,bald,fat,skinney,black white or green you have the cash the gals will follow.Just a slight difference than in America,OZ, or other places on the planet I am sure, or we would all not want to go and taste the fruits of DA JUNGLE.

B.B...

Cebu Local
06-07-06, 23:31
Not being American,I dont think I should comment on USA politics,though I have lived in the PI for the last 14 years and speak Cebuano and Tagalog.However I would like to weigh in on the multiple ID issue,I had coffee with Guiness at Ziggurat Restaurant,While Prov 1 was tapping away at the 88 Internet Cafe Across the street,Guiness called Dashing Don at the Manila Peninsula where he really somehow registered himself as Senator Real name.There is no possibile way they could be the same guy.They are not even from the same state.For example one is from a Western State and the other is from a Northwestern state.I will be fixing travel arrangements for 2 of them visiting Cebu,So Anybody can always PM me if there are any other doubts,Back to regular programing

Cebu Local
06-07-06, 23:58
On a BRIGHTER note: I wish there were more expats in the PI like CanContrib, and LESS of the sex tourists who mistreat the babae. Yes some GROs are cheaters and swindlers, but there are also LOTS of very sweet, guilless, girls who come from desperately poor families with no alternative but to send their daughters to Manila, Cebu, Angeles etc. And MANY of these girls are manipulated and abused by foreign sex tourists (The Whites are almost as bad as the Japanese who are not nearly as bad as the Arabs).

My point is that guys need to wake up and smell the roses. A large part of the reason for the scammers is because they have previously been cheated by sex tourists from rich countries and they have learned to turn the tables and bvecome victimizer rather than victim.Hi Surfer While I agree with you that there are many nice sweet guiless girls,There are plenty of scammers also,Being Foriegn looking But Filipino speaking allows me to eavesdrop on many bargirls chatting "girls talk" and one of their favorite topics is really discussing how to squeeze money out of the old stupid goats AKA Matandang Tangang Gurang na Kano.They also prefer westerners compared to Koreans and Arabs and in many cases Filipinos,Since They are better treated by most westerners compared to most Arabs and Koreans.Binababoy sila ng mga Arabo at Koreano.Personally I am active in Bantay Bata which is a local NGO that fights Child abuse and yes Kiddy Fuckers.But just because you believe strongly in something,You should not impose your views.Anyway my 2 centavos opinion

Dashing Don
06-08-06, 03:07
I just did some research.

Remember Numero One from the 'Who should be given their own thread' section? Well, Total Package is a dead ringer for Numero One. They repeat the same stuff. Throw in Chivas1 and you have all of On The Go's monikers. At least at the time of writing.

Guinness deserves special mention as he is like a bloodhound when it comes to sniffing out On The Go's latest ID. Well done Guinness!!

Back to Surfer: Will CL's post change Surfer's position on the multiple ID issue? Not likely. (BTW, CL, thanks for acknowledging my position as Senator). When Surfer doesn't understand an issue or feels threatened, he immediately throws up the 'multiple ID' smokescreen.

We all just have to hope that Surfer forgets to wax his board some day and when he takes a header, it ends up his rear end.

What an epitaph!

Don

Buko Max
06-08-06, 04:37
I didn't sign on for this stuff.
A political thread on ISG? What is this website comming to?
You would think that by starting this thread, Jackson is trying to clean up the other P.I. threads so that our distinguished brethren can bicker to their hearts content but it does not seem to be working. Maybe give it a few days with the hope that the posters in question will get the picture and only post information or field reports.

Columpuss
06-08-06, 09:38
Mattrick

It's not political. It is that I despite guys who come to the PIs, has green horns, got taken by real life and bad mouth about it.
They had their ways with the girls for a couple of bucks and yet something happened to them on their ways to get some actions, it is the end of the world.
They came to visit the Las Vegas of the PIs and they think the whole country is such. The country is not better or worse than others. When you come to look for sex, you are more likely surrrounded by shady characters.

Dashing Don
06-08-06, 22:29
Its nice to see The Great Mattrick back. He always shows up when there's a fight, usually to complain about the participants.

When he's not complaining, he's all over the place--a true cyber traveller. In the last two months he's posted in: Cuba, Canada, Brazil, Hong Kong, Macau, Philippines, Thailand (On The Go's thread), Morality of Prostitution, Special Interests, Colombia and more. I can't memorize them all.

He has a passion for travel, that's all I can say. And of course I applaud him for that.

Don

Bill Buxton
06-08-06, 22:41
A political thread on ISG? What is this website comming to?
You would think that by starting this thread, Jackson is trying to clean up the other P.I. threads so that our distinguished brethren can bicker to their hearts content but it does not seem to be working. Maybe give it a few days with the hope that the posters in question will get the picture and only post information or field reports.
Why would anyone with a good job in another country go to the P.I. and live?Maybe lazy?running from something?Or just wanting to escape life's general bull****.The P.I. through me eyes not a 2-3 week tourist but a fact finding person with enough money to stay anywhere in the world thinks this is a great playground for adult men to go.With other wide scale problems that most of the people do not know about.

I have told people I know about the bar scene and they listen just as I once did to a friend telling the yarn's.I am sure as God made green apples they think it's all bula bula.Thats ok that keeps the flood of people from hitting the area and keeping it for the ones that know the difference.Many guys from around the world come here and I have talked to many that have come here for years and they all have stories about things they saw or heard.I think I would have liked to read posts about other things here than just bar gals.I have many hours invested here also as I am sure many others do also trying to answer many questions about daily life in this country.I might be alone in feeling that asking a simple question and getting the answer in return being "why don't you read the board"not very helpful.

Obviously the easiest thing to do here is find a gal right?what about transportation,general mongering questions,air travel to other places,travel by boats,cost of buying general merchandise.Who wants to find out on his own all the right ways of doing business.Yes maby You or I found out the hard way and that's fine but whats wrong with giving someone a break?I am sure someone gave you a break one time or another.

I am telling the info here like I would want someone to have it told to me STRAIGHT UP.Where else can you live and eat and have a social life on 1000. or 2000, dollars a month? not here.And even support a family on that.Why would the government check camera phones computers for dirty pictures and other stuff when returning back home.It is because it's different here, and there is a small element of unsavory people that come and also live here.Yes the P.I. and also America and all over the globe.I am stating the facts about what I saw and lived not trashing or prasing anything.I posted last year because until now sim cards were not used in my country.That is another big question and with my phone I had to have the line opened, for it to work there.Yes it was stolen because after a while I let my guard down,ME, and I was too trusting and that's when I lost.Being complacent in a strange place, acting like I had all the answers, well that's what happens,no big deal.

Its all good info and there are no stupid questions to be asked here,Why not a new thread on every board here about ground and air transportation?I know it would have Ben a great place for me to spend some quality pc time.

Loosen up guys nobody has to prove anything here and who has all the answers to every question? not I.

Play Safe,

B.B...

Prov1
06-09-06, 02:10
Its nice to see The Great Mattrick back. He always shows up when there's a fight, usually to complain about the participants.

When he's not complaining, he's all over the place--a true cyber traveller. In the last two months he's posted in: Cuba, Canada, Brazil, Hong Kong, Macau, Philippines, Thailand (On The Go's thread), Morality of Prostitution, Special Interests, Colombia and more. I can't memorize them all.

He has a passion for travel, that's all I can say. And of course I applaud him for that.

Don
You are correct Senator Don in you assessment of Mattrick. It's funny, in all his posts he has yet to post a field report about a WOMAN! It make me wonder about this character...

Bart9000
06-14-06, 05:01
Well, guys.

After reading through all the posts here, I think I can say that I have it the worst when it comes to LTR, without a doubt. You see, I'm not a black man, a white man nor an asian man. I am a US-born Latin from New York. You have no idea how LIMITED my options are in terms of LTR:

1) I fit the profile of US-born Latins having lower income. I do have a high school diploma and an associate degree but finished short of the 4-yr degree. Too much drama that I won't get into here. So no going over the world mongering for me.

2) My parents are usually the conservative type from the "homeland", which means that some of their fucked-up social and cultural values rubbed off on me. I have problems trying to loosen up when it came to meeting people of the opposite sex. The clubbing scene is a big turn-off for me. Even the social clubs around the city I have trouble getting traction in because the girls are already there with their boyfriends/fuck buddies/whatever or a bunch of girls are together and have this bad attitude. A lot of US-based Latins have the worst attributes from both their old culture and the US culture COMBINED. That is not to mention the stupid reggaeton/hip-hop crap that's the rage today. It's absolutely sickening!

3) Going outside the ethnic group/social group is a BIG problem because:

a) Latins in the US have this big stigma attached to them. Either they're looked at as criminals, illegal aliens or the machista-sexist type. I'm neither a criminal nor an illegal alien. And I'm pretty soft for a big guy. Shy even.

b) Again, Latins have this cultural pride thing and, as a result, I have problems trying to break through this barrier. It's stupid but that's what I have to live with.

4) Going back to the "homeland" to look for women is another BIG problem:

a) Most women there think that people coming over from the US already have money or SHOULD have money by now. I'm about as close to broke as possible. So I can't even afford to lie to a woman promising to take care of her because I already have enough drama paying the bills and I can't afford to tack on a woman who turns out to be a manipulating (rhymes with "witch").

b) On that point, you have to realize that Latin women in many countries treat men of the same ethnic group like CRAP. Either they feel that they have to get back at all the other men because of the way many men mistreat them or they have this superiority complex that hides their self-doubt.

c) Like I said before, I am neither black, white nor asian. So I can't even fake an "exotic" look.

So I get no luck with women in the same ethnic AND with women from other ethnic groups.

The real reason why I read this forum is to live through others' reports the fantasy of being that man who is desired, of that confident and well-off man who is adventerous and self-assured. In reality, I am just another nobody in a sea of nobodies. I feel that I can't even look at a woman because I'm afraid she'll report me for harrassment. Maybe I need psychological counseling.

At this point, I can certainly use some tips from the experts at this little panel here. I think LTR is the only way I will ever have a decent sexual relationship because I certainly don't have the goods for STR nor a bang-bang.


I went through a period like this in my early twenties....massive debt, people sueing me left and right, gaining weight, forced to drop out of college, shit low paying-physicaly demanding high stress job, no car, moving home with my parents who heaped vicious abuse (which I had to endure on pain of being thrown out homeless) on me nearly around the clock...as a result, I was basically a beaten down, no self esteem, nervous wreck, like our friend here. Needless to say, no girl woud even look at me (despite this, one of my mother's incessant harping points was "Get Married-because two people can live cheaper than one") Towards the end of that ordeal (having worked my ass off in this situation for two years, until I got a better job, and went back to school-a student loan disbursement funded my move out of Mom and Dad's house) I actually had to have a dental procedure to have enamel bonded back on my teeth as I had ground all of it off (while awake)

Anyways, after all of that, I realized years later that I actually came out ahead, because statistically speaking, that would have been the time for some litte bimbo to have gotten her claws into me......I'm sure that a celibate marriage, likely divorce and subsequent child support would have put me all in all in a place much further away from where I want my life to be than the "lost years" did.

B8k

Member #2001
06-14-06, 06:47
I love the diversity of america but I'm tired of people taking and not giving back.Nowhere else in the world would this happen.You either contribute and be a part of the community as a whole or get out.You cant expect to be liked if you take jobs.People in europe are starting to feel the brunt of it as well it's draining any progress thats been made.Nobody would be racist if you hired americans and spent your money here instead of sending it home so more people can come here and the drain the system.Theres nothing racist about it just look at the stats.
Asians are the worst offenders of this world wide.

I am so sorry that I walked into this conversation. All I have to say is WRONG!!!!!!WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!WRONG!!!!!!!! AND WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!i I am not going to post my reasons why you are wrong, buecause I do not want to perpetuate a flame war even though I do have valid reasons which I will not discuss here. How ever I will say that as an american (a discusted one at that), fed up with the hollier then thou attitude and the people running the country, I have decided to work here and take my hard earnded dollars out of the country and if anyone I would encourage anyone albiet american or from other culture to do the same also. There is nothing unpatratiotic about it and I will not be silenced by bieng called a communist as it the fashion nowadays. BTW. I am not Mexican, black, chinese, polack, arab or a redneck hillbilly. I am a HUMAN, born on this planat and I dont see how race, color, creed, or religion has anything to do with it.

Reminds me of, well better not say.

So now you or anyone would like to flame me please do so as I will not respond and you will go into my ignore box, so feel free.



i concur. america is the greatest political entity in the history of mankind but our greatness is declining. america is great because of our protestant work ethic, rugged individualism,respect for the rule of law, and eternal optimism that is shared among our populace. we are also historically unique in that we'll kick your ass, help you up, patch ya up, and then declare no hard feelings.

unfortunately, our common cultural fabric is being eroded by mass immigration from non western nations. an immediate immigration moratorium must be declared on Asians, latinos, slavs/e.europeans, and especially muslims--africans don't immigrate in any mentionable numbers anyway. it's not a racial issue but rather a cultural and ethical one. most of the aforementioned come here to benefit from the financial paradise that my forefathers made possible with no inkling to replenish what they take. if we need cheap labor fine, but they should not be granted citizenship or be treated to the trappings of such. american citizenship laws should be modeled after german laws... or better yet roman cannon...no first generation passports.

there should be a few exceptions, like those who deposit 250K in an american bank account with no withdrawal possible for five years. these people, along with other immigrants, should pay a higher tax rate--10%-20%-- than american citizens do.

these things will weed out freeriders from those that are genuinely interested in being americans and embracing the responsibilities that come with citizenship.

also, foreign brides must return home if their j-1 sponsor requests it within a ten year time frame. i'm sick of seeing sorry ass men being taken for rides by natashas.

BH Bound
06-14-06, 07:11
@Artistyp, I'm asian, and my parents' retail business employs many AMERICANS, at above the minimum wage, who otherwise would not have jobs because they do not have the same opportunity at education as I was entitled to. Also, the biggest offenders of this so called "sin" (I agree with the guy below me) are not asians, it's huge corporations (many with stockholders from varying ethnicities, but predominantly white) that lay off hundreds of thousands of Americans and outsource. I'm only 21 with minimal savings, but as my bank roll and I grow older, I intend to invest at least 70 percent of my savings in the European market, and the rest in my own enterprises (home-grown, which will also employ AMERICANS). What you do with your hard-earned money is your own business.

Chocha Monger
06-14-06, 08:09
I agree our history past and present are not exactly beyond reproach. I often wonder why our forefathers are said to have had a "great Protestant work ethic" when we all know that they relied on slave labor from Africa to do the most back-breaking work? Even today, the Mexicans immigrants demonstrate more of a work ethic than the average American, and they are mostly Catholics not Protestants.

Stating the facts instead repeating well aged slogans does not make one unpatriotic. Remember the story "The Emperor's New Clothes"?

Doctor_Skank
06-14-06, 09:47
CM

"I often wonder why our forefathers are said to have had a "great Protestant work ethic" when we all know that they relied on slave labor from Africa to do the most back-breaking work? Even today, the Mexicans immigrants demonstrate more of a work ethic than the average American, and they are mostly Catholics not Protestants."

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but speaking from personal experience and even though I am Catholic, I know a lot of "normal Joe" WASP (White Angle-Saxon Protestant) Americans working their asses off because they simply believe its the right thing to do and the way "a good American" should conduct himself. Moreover, just as much as America was built on imported foreign labor and slavery, it was also built based on the back-breaking work and sacrifice of our forefathers, whether they be English, German, Swedish, Irish, African, Chinese, Mexican or whatever.

Maybe the mentality is changing among America's population, but I have yet to be in a FIRST WORLD country where the people truly worked harder than the average American does. Germans for example are some of the laziest workers on the planet, but their companies are well-organized and the country's infrastructure runs very well... allowing their workers a degree of laziness less-efficiently run countries cannot afford.

As for the second and third world... sure they work hard, but are generally being exploited by their own "elected" politicians and are victims of their own woefully inefficient infrastructure.... essentially slaves to inefficiency.

I also believe that work ethic is largely fueled by necessity, or do you think those Hispanic road crews and landscapers work that hard because they want to? I am sure the guy on the powered lawn mower isnt about to trade places with the guy pouring tar on the highway on a 95° California afternoon.

BH Bound
06-15-06, 03:18
I also want to add that when my father came to this country with almost nothing, nobody helped him...not the American government, nobody. He had to start from scratch even though he had a degree from one of the most prestigeous universities in South Korea. He doesn't have to employ Americans and pay decent wages, but he does.

Bart9000
06-15-06, 03:54
Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. They need something to decorate the back windows of their truck's with.

I'm an advocate of incrementally eliminating national borders...things tend to equalize over time.

I work with a lot of Mexicans (all fine individuals) at my little shit restaurant job.....even though they are willing to do a hell of a lot more work for less pay, I am not the least bit concerned about them taking my job, because they (as simple unsophisticated, villagers from a coastal town in southern Mexico) can't perform my function nearly as well as I can.

Call me crazy, but I don't think one world government is such an evil idea......so long as it isn't just a corrupt tool for advancing corporate interests as is our current administration.

b9k

Frequent Flier
06-18-06, 04:21
Columpuss,

Although I do not keep up with all the data on killings or other violence in the USA or other countries. I do think it is reasonable that the murders, killings or persons going missing and later presumed dead and other violent acts are 99 percent accurately reported in coutries like the USA.

I do not think that in the Philippines or other 3rd world nations there is even a 20% accuracy to how many people are murdered or go missing or have violent acts committed against them.

So I do not think you can really compare the two societies in relation as to which is safer in general.

That said, the PI and other 3rd world countries like the PI are probably, in relation to violent crimes, safer for foreigners. Even in China if a violent crime is committed against a foreigner the local government will go all out to capture and punish all involved. Most countries are all to aware of the importance of the tourist dollar.

FF

Dragon Slayer
06-18-06, 22:43
Pals,

Just wondering about the guy who Posts all over the place. Does he actually go to any of these places. I travel far more than anyone I know and I know many wealthy, successful people due to my work. But I do not travel a fraction of what this one guy Posts. I have Posted so far in So China, Thailand, Toronto, Ca, London, UK and Phils. All during or after my Trips there.

I would say that it is likely this guy travels in his mind. Where are the photos??? I have posted several hundred photos on various sites. I have never posted about Japan but have had several erotic adventures there (need to Post the soon).

Anyway, Happy Father's Day to all.

Dragon Slayer

Bill Buxton
06-20-06, 00:41
Have a nice day guys lighten up it's all in a day in our lives.

Spam Hog
06-20-06, 08:35
[quote=frequent flier]columpuss,

although i do not keep up with all the data on killings or other violence in the usa or other countries. i do think it is reasonable that the murders, killings or persons going missing and later presumed dead and other violent acts are 99 percent accurately reported in coutries like the usa.

i do not think that in the philippines or other 3rd world nations there is even a 20% accuracy to how many people are murdered or go missing or have violent acts committed against them.

so i do not think you can really compare the two societies in relation as to which is safer in general.

that said, the pi and other 3rd world countries like the pi are probably, in relation to violent crimes, safer for foreigners. even in china if a violent crime is committed against a foreigner the local government will go all out to capture and punish all involved. most countries are all to aware of the importance of the tourist dollar.


gentlemen:

just my 2 cents on this note, as a former homicide detective, narcotics branch commander (usa wash dc) un sanctioned teacher (e. timor) private body guard (singapore) security consultant (singapore, malaysia and thailand) and martial arts teacher (thailand/philippines) i think im qualified to say a word or two on comparitive safety in the philippines as wellas thailand and a few other places i lived in worked in and traveled to in asia.

hands down the philippoines are safer for an expat westerner or touriost than the usa. we have much more random crime and violence than the phils.
i compare manila with washington dc where i wore various lawman badges for 23 years. wash dc is a cesspool where tourists are murdered, robbed, raped and injured at a higher rate, random violence, one minutes you are seeing the washington monument the next minute some junkie has a cheap pistol in your face and pistol whips you for your wallet and loose change.

violence towards foreigners does occur in the philippines, but in most cases some idiot brought it on himself, got drunk and mouthed off to some local or slapped around his gf. yeah you can say all you want about the abu sayeff and the npa, but vey clearly stay out of their territory and you wont have a problem with them. also stay out of anacostia and potomac gardens housing project in wash dc and bed sty or spanish harlem in new york, but it might not matter, the usa criminal is more mobile (that means he can drive a car) this makes people in the suburbs a car ride away from assholes from se dc with mayhem on their minds.

a great deal of the violence in the phils is connected to politics, live her a while and you understand the symbiosis between politics and family, its the patronage system, if my guy gets elected, you and your family who voted for me get all the breaks, meanwhile the guy who voted against me and his family get shit, pretty soon somebody gets tired of the short end of the stick and losing money and decides to hold an impeachment process with a 45, enough said, hold a review...

p.s. record keeping is a complete joke in this country, half the systems are not computerized and have to be hand searched by somebody who knows where the log book is

regards

spamhog

Bill Buxton
06-20-06, 12:31
That's a good report "SH" And I agree with what you said about the getting drunk and acting stupid in the PI.Most of the problems here are from guys acting more stupid than they ever would in there own countries.

World famous;

B.B...

Columpuss
06-21-06, 08:50
The good US of F'in A

Attended my nephew's 8th grade graduation ceremony 2 days ago. The school is in a residential area. Most parents couldn't find proper parking space so some of us parked on the side walk on school's property but not completely blocking the side walk. The sign says "no parking before 5PM" reserved for school buses. The ceremony starts at 7pm. When it ends at 9, we came out and saw a line of cars, must be around 10 cars that was ticketed for parking on the side walk. now, it is not down town. Parking cops don't go around residential areas after 5 to give out tickets.

My conclusion: some patriotic American must have performed his or her civic duty to punish law breakers.
Those who don't live in this country, this is a crime free country. The only law breakers are parents who park illegaly

Bill Buxton
06-21-06, 16:01
Why don't we close up the boarders,the free stuff to other countries and help just the ones here??Stop the social security to overseas foreigners living abrod,and all ex-military pensions to those living in other countries.Lets give our our country full control of setting things straight here.

The facts are we do what we do right or wrong,most of us would like to see a change here,but we still help out everyone else in the world.Remember that when you buy American living in the PI,all that shit you eat and drink and have on your back is not from everywhere else in the world.

How many old Hz bens from the states would cry if the goodies were stopped???You say I earned it well thats ok you did, and so am I every week helping you guys grow old in a different place.Jelous?no, just saying don't ***** about the farmer with your mouth full.We all live from the freedom America provides and we all take full advantage of it every day 24/7.America will serve anyone anytime night or day without question in a hospital or soup kitchen.Not ask for payment first before services are rendered.Is that the same in the PI I don't think so.I know you all living there think life is great and I also when I was there.Remember you are DIFFERENT.As was I we have income,we can support ourselves.How many of us go there and live like the locals do??? Not many That I saw,just the pompous foreigners strutting around bitching about the shit they have to deal with overseas.Sounds like they could not deal with the shit from where ever they were from so that's why they are there now.Lets put the cards on the table,call a spade a spade.We are different from each and every place,oz,france,the uk everywhere.We do have more than the locals and we ***** about what we don't have before what we do have.I am sure I left there 2 months ago thinking about the girl the cost of living feeling differently, but the general thought in my mind was I WAS LUCKY TO BE GOING HOME.I can assure you that my trip made me feel different and I think different now than before.I wake up feeling lucky to have a job and business here,and be able to go ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD I WANT without delay.

I do not look at material things like I did before,AND YES I HAD AND DO HAVE THEM ALL.The important thing in life is what I learned from the local culture,not some guy from another country.Be happy rich or poor,be happy with your family.Who would ever think that I had to go 9000 miles away at the age of 41 and learn a life's lesson like that.



B.B...

B.B...

GoodEnough
06-22-06, 02:23
I don't want to get into a debate on patriotism or the political morality of the US versus anywhere else. I do think that the gist of Bill's argument is correct, and that the US does, in fact, act as a beacon to the rest of the world in many respects, though certainly (at least with the current administration) not all. I do want to point out though, in terms of our giving away the "free stuff" that the amount of money the US gives away as foreign aid is less, on a per capita percentage of GDP than any other developed country in the world. We are not nearly as generous for example, as Norway (the highest percentage of GDP as foreign aid), or Canada.

Historically, the US Congress has traditionally viewed foreign aid with a great deal of suspicion, and it continues to do so.

As to the payment of social security to US expats, why shouldn't we receive it? We pay it after all, in the same proportion as those living in the US, and we therefore "earn" the right to it the same as any other US citizen.

As with most complex arguments, this is not a simple, "either or" situation. For me, and I think for most of the expats I know, there are certain elements of living overseas that are preferable (to us) to living in the US. At the same time, there are certain qualities--both material and otherwise--that are lacking and that all of us miss. Most of the expatriates I know fall into one of two categories:

1. They live overseas because that's where their jobs took them, and they adapted well to the life. My experience is that, after not very many years, people in this category (including myself) get classified by employers as those who have maximum value to their companies by living overseas. It's difficult therefore, to come back to the US and find equivalent jobs.

2. They moved overseas when they were older and about to retire, for the simple reason that their pensions and savings are insufficient to support them well in their home countries. Since US (or European) money stretches much further in the developing world, they chose to move overseas to attain a higher quality of life, in the material sense.

Expatriotism is not for everyone, and probably not for most people. Adaptation is often difficult, and even for those of us who have lived abroad for years, the occassional pangs of displacement and homesickness never go away completely.

:D

GE

Bill Buxton
06-22-06, 02:32
You are right you did earn it but what about the working class or any class for that matter that pays taxes on wages and then again on savings.If the people could vote on paying ss and giving it to those who move from there country to live elsewhere they might want the cash to stay here.Fuel the economy at home not in another country.

I have argued about this at home with many just a thread not just my personal feelings.I have seen both sides of the coin and each should decide his fate here or there.

B.B...

Spam Hog
06-22-06, 08:43
I hate to see things degenerate into a ***** session, borrrrriiiinnnnngggg, so please understand I am not bitching and I am not taking aim at anyone. I, like many other expats LOVE my country, the good old USA, I served it in many ways for almost 30 years. I do not view my substantial pension as "supported by taxpayers" as I had to pay into it, that's right... came out of my salary every week I worked, Im proud of that too.

However, as much as I love my country, i choose not to live there as I simply cannot afford to unless I want to work. Probably in a private business as I had before. Why the hell should I work, pay taxes, maintain a business ,license and put up with all the crap of having employee's, labour management hassels and the inevitible law suits and other crap? Unfortunately, that is what American has become. Freedom ???
The legal profession has made everyday life a mine field of political correctness where there are so many laws, rules regularions and mandates that it is nearly impossible not to violate something or other then the special agenda groups take over and nail your ass to the wall coz U are a white male republican. That isn't freedom my friends.

Being an expat in Asia, living and working and of course playing here for more than seven years has made me realize many things, one is that how lucky I am to have been born in the USA and be a success at my chosen field and enjoy a generous retirement stipend every month that allows me to live like a fuedal warlord. But believe me I earned every penny. This is the other thing I learned:

TRUE FREEDOM IS FINANCIAL FREEDOM. If you have enough money and a dependable income you can go anywhere at any time and do anything you want...now thats freedom and that is what I have here.

The other issue is, once you get over in Asia and live there, you dont want to go back...so many reason for this. I came to this realization on a brief trip back to the USA recently to see my grandkids...I dont fit in anymore.


Spend more than a few months here and you wont either.

Regards


The Spam hog

GoodEnough
06-22-06, 09:17
As always, SH, you make perfect sense, and you raise a point that I forgot to mention. Once you've lived overseas for a certain period of time, be it in Asia, Europe or wherever, you just do not fit in "at home" any more. I guess it's because in the US, as with everywhere else, the culture is dynamic, things are changing all the time, and you (the expat) have not been there to accommodate or internalize the changes. I find exactly the same thing on my rare visits to the US: I will often be jarred by the culture shock and think to myself, "Where the hell am I?"

In my case, I've lived outside the US for so long that I don't even know anyone, aside from the kids, very well any more and when I do get together with old friends, we find we have very little to say to each other. They cannot possibly identify with or be cognizant of my lifestyle, and I can no longer identify with theirs. I don't think this has anything at all to do with one's feelings toward the US or wherever your country of birth happens to be. It's just the inevitable process of cultural alienation.

Prior to living in Asia, I lived in Paris for several years, and I recall thinking, on a trip back to the states, how loud Americans are. Of course, the noise level probably hadn't changed since I had lived in America, but I simply was not used to it any more.

This is probably the last comment I'll make on this subject, but it is somewhat reassuring to note that others experience some of the same feelings that I do.

GE

J Boy
06-22-06, 14:43
As always, SH, you make perfect sense, and you raise a point that I forgot to mention. Once you've lived overseas for a certain period of time, be it in Asia, Europe or wherever, you just do not fit in "at home" any more. I guess it's because in the US, as with everywhere else, the culture is dynamic, things are changing all the time, and you (the expat) have not been there to accommodate or internalize the changes. I find exactly the same thing on my rare visits to the US: I will often be jarred by the culture shock and think to myself, "Where the hell am I?"

In my case, I've lived outside the US for so long that I don't even know anyone, aside from the kids, very well any more and when I do get together with old friends, we find we have very little to say to each other. They cannot possibly identify with or be cognizant of my lifestyle, and I can no longer identify with theirs. I don't think this has anything at all to do with one's feelings toward the US or wherever your country of birth happens to be. It's just the inevitable process of cultural alienation.

Prior to living in Asia, I lived in Paris for several years, and I recall thinking, on a trip back to the states, how loud Americans are. Of course, the noise level probably hadn't changed since I had lived in America, but I simply was not used to it any more.

This is probably the last comment I'll make on this subject, but it is somewhat reassuring to note that others experience some of the same feelings that I do.

GE


This doesn't make any sense to me. You are a person who has many times gone to new places and made friends with people of a different cultures but you can't get past some changes at home? Maybe you aren't really trying.

J Boy
06-22-06, 14:51
I do want to point out though, in terms of our giving away the "free stuff" that the amount of money the US gives away as foreign aid is less, on a per capita percentage of GDP than any other developed country in the world. We are not nearly as generous for example, as Norway (the highest percentage of GDP as foreign aid), or Canada.


But when you factor in our defense budget and the way we protected Europe and most of the world from the Soviet Union for 40 years, we might look a little more generous. Then factor in the Americans who died in defense of others in both world wars, the cold war and so many undeclared wars. I think we have done more than anyone can expect. If Europe had to depend upon the likes of Norway they would all be speaking Russian.

Bill Buxton
06-22-06, 22:03
SH, I agree with MOST of what you said BUT,What about the guys working today giving more than you in terms of paying into the ss system.The guy that works every day and hears about how there is likely not gonna be anything for him.And you telling how you live like a war loard.Are you bragging or complaining?Sounds like the money you paid in and got back was yours what about the statement about not wanting to work?"lazy"? not fitting in back home.Why? you don't make an attempt at keeping in touch?your family and friends not liking your choice of countries?or the gal you chose?I saw all the same in my short trip,many guys that we misunderstood by there friends and family.

Many of the reasons were because of THERE CHOICES not there families.It's not about being the big time charlie or is it?Sounds like you got that kind of ego you need to fuel.Cant cut the mustard at home you mean YOUNG GALS?It's a fucking joke with you OLD GUYS yes I said old running around like you are still somebody,well the joke is on you!It takes work and guts to stay at home and pay and face the music and vote for whoever you think will do the best job for the people.You are probably like others that BIT** every day about bush but were never here to try and change anything, or cast and vote for what you think should be changed.I met what I would call shitheads from here on my trip wanting to be or act young again.Talking very loud about the riches all there incoharent hours.I responded to them every chance I got,if your so rich why ain't you home???I never got an answer from most, and some were coherent enough to speak.

I dont find the fascination with the younger guys in your place like I do with the old.Mabey it's because they still get there stinger wet every night at home.And the answer is if you had the corner on the place to live everyone would be there.

Lazy,drunk,bigshot,whatever fuels your egos lap it up but the bottom line is you want the riches from the pot "think American now, BECAUSE YOU ARE INTITLED TO THEM "SS" YOU PAID YOUR SHARE AND WANT IT BACK"I am sure you take that check away and the warlord would surely cry like a regular baby.And please tell us what bank in Asia you have the money entered into?most guys have a us bank and for what reason???Come on you know please tell us all mr. warloard.What about the 10% interest you can get there on all your ritches you have it's sure better than what you get here!! Bit,what about safe? Please tell us how safe your green is there.I heard the local braintrust there worrying about there peso accounts because of the rates at the first of the year.Worrying about the 1 point up or down sounded like they all had billions in the bank.Sure thats why they would ***** when the beer price went to .05 pesos per beer higher.The rich big shots with the money to burn,most could not pour [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) out of a rubber boot with the instructions scribbled on the heel.

The facts are the facts and the truth is the truth,You are gonna die and leave the embassy to pay for the funeral after the guys back home pay for it.Not to mention after that Young cooze and the RELATHIVES loot and get the warlords belonings,every last drop...

I SAW IT AND LIVED IT EVERY DAY FOR 6 MONTHS, so blow smoke up someone else's ass...

B.B...

GoodEnough
06-23-06, 07:44
Bill, you might have seen, but you obviously failed to understand much or perhaps most of what you saw. First, I have met SH several times, and your perception of his motivations, his attitudes and his behavior are not only egregiously wrong, but offensive. Second, your generalizations about the lifestyles of expatriates would be equally offensive if they were not so absurd.

In fifteen years of living overseas, I've found that peoples' motivations vary enormously: sometimes the rationale is economic, sometimes political, and sometimes social, but it's rarely sexual. That is, most men who make the decision to live oversea don't do so primarily so they can screw younger women. This may be a fringe benefit, but it's hardly a motivation for changing one's entire life. Maybe before your next trip you should read a couple of books and arrange to meet a more representative sample of expats. You might also want to brush up your syntax prior to making your next lengthy post.

J Boy, your point is well-taken though I'm not sure I would include defense expenditures post World War II as foreign assistance. I think it's more on the order of self-interest and perhaps a determination on the part of politicians to ensure the survival of the defense industry and the number of jobs associated with it. I doubt, for example, that the Japanese or the Germans view the presence of US troops on their soil as essential any longer.

Maybe it's not possible to generalize accurately about either of these issues, and maybe the reasons that those of us who live overseas do so are as idiosyncratic as the individuals who make the choices. I do think though, that once someone has lived overseas for long enough, though he or she may adapt to other cultures, the individual never "fits in" again. For example, as an American living in Asia, I'm always going to be perceived as an outsider, and will be perceived somewhat in that vein by Americans when I do go home.

Obviously, this is just my point of view and just my two centavos worth of opinion.

:D

GE

Bill Buxton
06-23-06, 12:06
I understand perfectly what my sober eyes and ears saw and heard.Can't chew the leather anymore and maybe I was in a place that reeked of Scams and insolence from foreigners.Could be but I saw and heard much that was to my disgust will try another area nextime I go, lets see.Failed to understand "what". The part of cheep beer,girls,Lack of good medical care what did I miss??The fact that you sometimes go to a doctor 2-3 times before getting the right diagnosis??Come on you can justify just about anything when you talk from your wallet.A friend from the states had red eye went to 3 doctors before getting the right drops to clear the shit up.And the second one gave him something that would make him blind if he had continued use.Sure that could happen anywhere,not likely at home.Thats the difference,why do all or most of the guys living there know and say if they get sick they are going home to get medical care?????I am sure you got an answer for that a 700 dollar ticket home for FREE care on the taxpayers.I know the mentality over their cheep charlie they call it maybe most did not plan well enough ahead and that why they are there.20 THOUSAND DOLLARS makes you a millionare in the PI,Well thats the difference any half a mope can get to that plato in life working at mickeyD's or burgerking.War Lord in fantasy land that's the mentality when you stay there to long.And I am sure you feel everything you also report here is right.I am sure there are lots that can't tell me when they drew there last sober breath but many could tell me about the new bar or great looking addition "FEMALE" that works at it.Or who is giving away free food at happyhour.Sorry guys I lived there surrounded bu drunks and braggarts what can I say millionaires galore from everywhere,but they all come running back here for something they think the are entitled to.Sit in the vfw and make out entitlement papers because they deserve it.The last stage in life, loss of reason and intravenous alcohol use don't add up to much.Expatriats I wave my flagg every week so I can pay for your medical care when you fly back home with a medical crisis next time.A new location still the same what can my country do for me attitude.

Come on IT ain't great enough for me to sell out and live there and the newness wares off after a while...

B.B...

Three I
06-23-06, 22:04
Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. They need something to decorate the back windows of their truck's with.

I'm an advocate of incrementally eliminating national borders...things tend to equalize over time.

I work with a lot of Mexicans (all fine individuals) at my little shit restaurant job.....even though they are willing to do a hell of a lot more work for less pay, I am not the least bit concerned about them taking my job, because they (as simple unsophisticated, villagers from a coastal town in southern Mexico) can't perform my function nearly as well as I can.

Call me crazy, but I don't think one world government is such an evil idea......so long as it isn't just a corrupt tool for advancing corporate interests as is our current administration.

b9k


What do you think the One World Nation is about!

One Nation under Lucifer not God!

Mr. Rothchild doesn't need our money he has Trillions of dollars!

He wants our minds!

He wants to turn all of us into slaves, but I guess he already has a few slaves in his pockets already.

I know this is a sex site but Some of you guys really need to pick up a Bible are read it. Even more importantly try to understand it.

Bart9000

You really think only Rednecks are Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. Man America is doomed!

Beavis
06-24-06, 03:34
Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. They need something to decorate the back windows of their truck's with.

I'm an advocate of incrementally eliminating national borders...things tend to equalize over time.

I work with a lot of Mexicans (all fine individuals) at my little shit restaurant job.....even though they are willing to do a hell of a lot more work for less pay, I am not the least bit concerned about them taking my job, because they (as simple unsophisticated, villagers from a coastal town in southern Mexico) can't perform my function nearly as well as I can.

Call me crazy, but I don't think one world government is such an evil idea......so long as it isn't just a corrupt tool for advancing corporate interests as is our current administration.

b9k

If they were all coming to do shit jobs for less money it would be fine. How about when they all need welfare, free housing, free health care and food stamps? Who the fuck do you think is going to pay for that? The tax payer is. So when we already have record debt please explain to me how 50 million unskilled, uneducated workers that earn less than 12k per year is going to help the country.

LoveAsianWhores
06-24-06, 03:42
Well, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I live in the Phillipines for many reasons, most have a lot to with how I love I the country. However, there is a separate reason for why I don't live in America. I lived in the US for all of my adult life, and it is a place I truly despise. It used to be great place, maybe as recently at 15 years ago. But times have changed. It is a borderline police state today. The country has the highest per capita incaration rate in the world, by far. Cops everywhere. The government can monitor you communications at will. The smallest thing, from driving after having a few to many, to not having your kid in car seat, can get you in serious trouble. Argument with your wife, maybe you go to jail. Your kid gets sunburned, maybe you are charged with child abuse. Music to loud, disturbing the peace. Say something untruthful to a cop, you go to jail for a long time. Your 5 year old son touches a girl inappropriately, he gets in whole lot of trouble. This list goes on and on.

But the biggest reason that I could not live in the US, is that I am against the US in their war in Iraq. The US destroyed the country and is now occupying it. They claim they are liberating it, but over 80% of the population, in every poll taken in the past 6 months, want the US out NOW. Now I don't want to enter a debate about Iraq. It is just that in good conscience, I cannot live in a country I do not support. Out here, while not everyone supports my views, they at least consider them rational and don't get upset with me for having them. When I express joy at every strike the resistance makes against the US, I don't have to worry about going on some terrorist watch list merely because I have an opinion that is counter to US interests. In war, there are two sides. Who is right and and who is wrong largely depends on where you live. It is very difficult to live in a country at war when you support the other side, even if your support is merely the opinion that the other side is right.

Cavechu
06-24-06, 04:36
Well, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I live in the Phillipines for many reasons, most have a lot to with how I love I the country.

easy access to limitless supply of reasonable price asian *****s helps?? did you renounced your US citizenship??

Cavechu
06-24-06, 04:49
Well, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I live in the Phillipines for many reasons, most have a lot to with how I love I the country.

easy access to limitless supply of reasonable price asian *****s helps?? did you renounced your US citizenship??

LoveAsianWhores
06-24-06, 05:30
easy access to limitless supply of reasonable price asian *****s helps?? did you renounced your US citizenship??

The problem with renouncing citizenship is that you then become stateless. I need to leave the country every six months to renew my visa, but if I tried to that while being stateless, I could spend the rest of my life in an immigration holding cell. Citizenship is something that you generally have no control over. Just like you cannot control who your parents are, you cannot control where you are born. Obtaining Philippine residency is not that difficult, but citizenship is. And even then, it is quite difficult traveling anywhere outside of ASEAN with a Philippine passport. Alas, US citizenship is something I will have to bear for life.

Fred C Dobbs
06-24-06, 05:58
BB are you talking about medicare for the elderly? If you are it applies to all US citizens. Same for social security. You/me/senior citizens all are paying or have paid for it. All elderly US citizens are using these. The ones you saw in the Philippines are saving you tax dollars as they are not using medicare there.

You will be using both someday too.

Spam Hog
06-24-06, 11:42
SH, I agree with MOST of what you said BUT,What about the guys working today giving more than you in terms of paying into the ss system.The guy that works every day and hears about how there is likely not gonna be anything for him.And you telling how you live like a war loard.Are you bragging or complaining?Sounds like the money you paid in and got back was yours what about the statement about not wanting to work?"lazy"? not fitting in back home.Why? you don't make an attempt at keeping in touch?your family and friends not liking your choice of countries?or the gal you chose?I saw all the same in my short trip,many guys that we misunderstood by there friends and family.

Many of the reasons were because of THERE CHOICES not there families.It's not about being the big time charlie or is it?Sounds like you got that kind of ego you need to fuel.Cant cut the mustard at home you mean YOUNG GALS?It's a fucking joke with you OLD GUYS yes I said old running around like you are still somebody,well the joke is on you!It takes work and guts to stay at home and pay and face the music and vote for whoever you think will do the best job for the people.You are probably like others that BIT** every day about bush but were never here to try and change anything, or cast and vote for what you think should be changed.I met what I would call shitheads from here on my trip wanting to be or act young again.Talking very loud about the riches all there incoharent hours.I responded to them every chance I got,if your so rich why ain't you home???I never got an answer from most, and some were coherent enough to speak.

I dont find the fascination with the younger guys in your place like I do with the old.Mabey it's because they still get there stinger wet every night at home.And the answer is if you had the corner on the place to live everyone would be there.

Lazy,drunk,bigshot,whatever fuels your egos lap it up but the bottom line is you want the riches from the pot "think American now, BECAUSE YOU ARE INTITLED TO THEM "SS" YOU PAID YOUR SHARE AND WANT IT BACK"I am sure you take that check away and the warlord would surely cry like a regular baby.And please tell us what bank in Asia you have the money entered into?most guys have a us bank and for what reason???Come on you know please tell us all mr. warloard.What about the 10% interest you can get there on all your ritches you have it's sure better than what you get here!! Bit,what about safe? Please tell us how safe your green is there.I heard the local braintrust there worrying about there peso accounts because of the rates at the first of the year.Worrying about the 1 point up or down sounded like they all had billions in the bank.Sure thats why they would ***** when the beer price went to .05 pesos per beer higher.The rich big shots with the money to burn,most could not pour [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) out of a rubber boot with the instructions scribbled on the heel.

The facts are the facts and the truth is the truth,You are gonna die and leave the embassy to pay for the funeral after the guys back home pay for it.Not to mention after that Young cooze and the RELATHIVES loot and get the warlords belonings,every last drop...

I SAW IT AND LIVED IT EVERY DAY FOR 6 MONTHS, so blow smoke up someone else's ass...

B.B...


Bill, one thing I NEVER DO is blow smoke up peoples asses, but it certainly seems as if someone blew a whole truck load up yours. I don't know what you did your "tour" here but it seems to me you spent a lot of time in bars talking to embittered expat drunks, you know, the type who are always running scams and looking to bilk "greehorns" and newby's out of their hard earned money. I think perhaps a bit of that embitterment rubbed off on you as that is how your coming across. But to assume all expats here are the same is folly, I assure you they are not and I refer to several gentlemen I know on this board personally as men of quality, presence and demanor whose experience has made them better men for it.

But talking to "old" guys in bars is not really a good overall acessment of the cultural, socio-economic/political situation in whatever 3rd world paradise you visit. BTW doubtful our paths would have crossed as I spend very little time in bars (prefer a gym) but perhaps if you would visit other establishment (the ones where you don't barfine anyone) your opinions might be different.

As far as my bitching or complaining as you put it, I was doing neither, as a warlord or as and old retired jerk I was merely giving my honest opinion, quoting facts and telling you the truth, maybe you don't like how it was presented (Tough) or thought I was gloating but I assure I wasn't.

I don;t want to get involved in the arguement over SSS, Im not under that system (thank god) and of course if my pension were cut off I would have to go back to work, but work I would, probably in Singapore, my last job or perhaps take up certain people on their offer to go to Afghanistan or Iraq as I've been offered, however, I see no need to go to those countries and make money I don't need when Im fiinacially secure.

But I do have a nest egg that would see me throguh any dry period thanks to my foresight in investing in the US stiock market. I am a great beleiver in the US economic system and in the stock market, Buy American and invest. Thats what you should do Bill if you are truly a patriotic American working class hero, do you really think your doing any good by "Buying American" coz U go to wal mart? Better yet, take some of that beer money you pour down your throat and open up a trading account and invest in some US run companies. Oh and I pay US taxes also!

Of course I keep my money in a US bank...and I voted for Bush...twice, as I've said, Im a good American and love my country, because I choose to live elsewhere (thats right Bill I said Choose!) does that make me less a man/ less a patriot in your eyes...who cares.

Facts, we are all going to die, if I die in the Philippines, my wife and relatives get the loot from my war lords war chest and divy it up...thats the law. If YOU die in the US who in your chain of command of spongeing relatives gets your loot... or maybe you were one of those ones foolish enough to have a lawyer as executor of your will in which case your lawyer cleans up.


Respectfully

The Spamhog

Bill Buxton
06-24-06, 12:30
I don't drink,and don't smoke,and most of the guys I saw were in bars getting there load on.Yes running scams on the next greenhorn they saw.What I am saying is without the ss most of the so called Rich guys like you by the sounds would have a different life.

I guess it's good the system reaches over and above its intentions.

B.B...

Bill Buxton
06-24-06, 12:39
Well, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I live in the Phillipines for many reasons, most have a lot to with how I love I the country. However, there is a separate reason for why I don't live in America. I lived in the US for all of my adult life, and it is a place I truly despise. It used to be great place, maybe as recently at 15 years ago. But times have changed. It is a borderline police state today. The country has the highest per capita incaration rate in the world, by far. Cops everywhere. The government can monitor you communications at will. The smallest thing, from driving after having a few to many, to not having your kid in car seat, can get you in serious trouble. Argument with your wife, maybe you go to jail. Your kid gets sunburned, maybe you are charged with child abuse. Music to loud, disturbing the peace. Say something untruthful to a cop, you go to jail for a long time. Your 5 year old son touches a girl inappropriately, he gets in whole lot of trouble. This list goes on and on.

But the biggest reason that I could not live in the US, is that I am against the US in their war in Iraq. The US destroyed the country and is now occupying it. They claim they are liberating it, but over 80% of the population, in every poll taken in the past 6 months, want the US out NOW. Now I don't want to enter a debate about Iraq. It is just that in good conscience, I cannot live in a country I do not support. Out here, while not everyone supports my views, they at least consider them rational and don't get upset with me for having them. When I express joy at every strike the resistance makes against the US, I don't have to worry about going on some terrorist watch list merely because I have an opinion that is counter to US interests. In war, there are two sides. Who is right and and who is wrong largely depends on where you live. It is very difficult to live in a country at war when you support the other side, even if your support is merely the opinion that the other side is right.You don't agree that why dip into the pool?I am sure you get some assistance stateside and then you flee and say this kinda shit and still grab the cash.Great deal for you and you gloat over it every month I am sure of that.

Seems you all can justify whatever you want and that's great live it up cause you all took the path of least resistance and showed what you really are...

B.B...

LoveAsianWhores
06-25-06, 06:19
You don't agree that why dip into the pool?
No idea what this means.
I am sure you get some assistance stateside.I provide assistance stateside to my family, and receive nothing from the US.
and then you fleeI flee, just as the pilgrims fleed England to escape tyranny. What is wrong with that?
and say this kinda shitThe truth hurts, doesn't it.
and still grab the cash.I work 7 days a week to make a good living in the Philippines. I wish I could grab cash.
Great deal for you and you gloat over it every month I am sure of that.Sorry, but I never gloat. You on the other hand have a serious case of jealousy. Maybe you should try and earn your own money.
Seems you all can justify whatever you want and that's great live it up cause you all took the path of least resistance and showed what you really are.Leaving the US was certainly not the path of least resistance. My income droped about 50%. It was the most difficult path, but the only path to avoid paying taxes that helps a country that is a threat to freedom the world over. It showed that my consciense will not let me live in a country I do not support. Your post, however, show that you are the kind of American moron that I was so sick of, that I had to leave. I am glad I just have to debate people like you online, instead of seeing them everyday.

Cavechu
06-25-06, 06:53
Your post, however, show that you are the kind of American moron that I was so sick of, that I had to leave. I am glad I just have to debate people like you online, instead of seeing them everyday.

Bada Bing to that LAW. I wish I could be in the far east to live it up too. my time will come. hope to share a cold beer with you if i am ever in your corner of the world.

GoodEnough
06-25-06, 07:09
Your post, however, show that you are the kind of American moron that I was so sick of, that I had to leave. I am glad I just have to debate people like you online, instead of seeing them everyday.
LAW:

Isn't it nice that most of the guys who live here are the polar opposites of this guy and that you almost never have to listen to this type of poorly-espressed, semi-incoherent, baseless crap? I don't know about you, but where I live, in Davao, very few of my daily conversations with other expats have anything to do with the US.

Let's try however, to keep the secret of how good life can be here between ourselves. If it gets out, the influx of newcomers may overwhelm us.

:D

GE

Spam Hog
06-25-06, 07:54
I don't drink,and don't smoke,and most of the guys I saw were in bars getting there load on.Yes running scams on the next greenhorn they saw.What I am saying is without the ss most of the so called Rich guys like you by the sounds would have a different life.

I guess it's good the system reaches over and above its intentions.

B.B...

Im Glad you dont drink or smoke Bill, coz I don;t either, BTW what did you drink in the bar when you were being husssled by all those mean old expats scammers? Cola?

I want to address than non sequitor parting line of yours about the system reaches over its intentions. I dont know how old you are, what you do for a living or your educational level but pardon me, what the hell do you know about the "systems" intention and usage and "abuses" as you infer?

The tone of your posts leads me (and apparently others) to beleive you think that all expats are getting over and ripping off the system, that we are "Sell outs" and chicken shits for "running" out on our country...or should I say countries coz like most typical fellow Americans you dont realize many Eurpoeans, Brits and Aussies to name a few are in the same boat.

You act like its the worst thing in the world for some guy (probably white, middle aged conservative) to live in another country and draw sss/pension or 401 K? Exactly where does it say in those retirement plans that one MUST reside in the US to draw benefits one has EARNED or entitled too?
And of course the first thing we do is get a little brown girl that screws and blows us everyday and some of us drink a little beer and generally enjoy ourselves? Terrible, Im sure Hilary will make it her mission to cut all benefits for White male republicans living abroad with women more than ten years their junior with input from standup guys like you. I wonder what Oprah or sally Jesse Rapheal or That nightmare Rosie O'Donnel would have to say about all us bad old boys, why don;t you book an appearance?

But expats on SS drinking and screwing doesn't seem so bad when you measure the abuses of the "system" by my fellow Americans. Remember Bill, you're talking to a guy who routinely used to arrest drug dealers in our nations capitol who were on welfare and took foodstamps from welfare mothers in exchange for crack. What did our politicians do about that? What did our system do about those abuses besides tell us big bad cops to lay off the poor oppressed inner city residents and hand out sentences of 6 to 18 months unsupervised probation for felony weight?

Of course our Pols have to clear the way for X sandanista hoodlums, Jamacian possee's and Domincan drug dealers coz these folks can be enlisted to vote (illegally) while colecting welfare and take better advantage of the system that protect, nutures and serves them...just look at the political platforms of who is running. Talk about selling out.

You come over to the Phils and hang out in a bar talking to a few old drunks and judge the whole lot, coming up with rediculous hypothetical quandries like "what would you do it no more benefits"

So now let me ask you the same thing. What would you do Bill, if suddenly (God forbid) you lost your job, you lost your 401 K or some idiot you elected decided to cut off your ss or retirement plan so more immigrants who vote their party can soil our country? Would you take your meager check and live into a trailer (or sleep in "shelters" or build a lean to in the woods?) and eat beans for breakfast lunch and dinner or would you go somewhere were your dollars would allow you to live with a modicom of civility?

Respectfully


Spam hog

Bill Buxton
06-25-06, 12:47
Like I said most on the 'PROGRAM" OVERTHERE,are used up and gave up or think they have built the ultimate mouse trap.Thats ok,Like I said anyone can justify anything in there owne mind If they do it enough.Could be The icetea by the glass I was drinking at 3000p per week was getting to me.What I am talking about is the caliber of guys I met are not the caliber of guys I would associate with at home.Rude,drunk,GAGOO.And yes they were not all from the U.S.I am not trying to start a war here but what I saw was just guys living not living life.Mabey its hard for me I am not retirement age yet but I hope someone gives me a bullet if i get like those guys.Not 1-2 or 3 most of the locals were foreigners.Some of the most chismis talking people I have ever met anywhere.

Could be that BALOY BEACH,breeds ASSHOLES, or is a magnet for them.How did I know went there under the direction of an acquaintance and saw the wild west.

Next trip over I will make sure I try some new areas.And as for being broke here in the states I still think I would stay here before changing countries...

B.B...

Hardbarg
06-25-06, 20:23
I know I'm going to be sorry for asking, since I'm sure ignoring you is the best policy. Nevertheless, are you saying that the world is literally going to be ruled by Lucifer (I assume you mean the devil)? - an actual physical presence? And who the hell is "Mr. Rothchild"?


What do you think the One World Nation is about!

One Nation under Lucifer not God!

Mr. Rothchild doesn't need our money he has Trillions of dollars!

He wants our minds!

He wants to turn all of us into slaves, but I guess he already has a few slaves in his pockets already.

I know this is a sex site but Some of you guys really need to pick up a Bible are read it. Even more importantly try to understand it.

Bart9000

You really think only Rednecks are Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. Man America is doomed!

Columpuss
06-26-06, 08:31
This thread will go on forever, interesting isn't it

BB

Read some of your posts before this, you seem to be a nice guy but you generalize about the Phillipines and forgot the US has the same problems and even worse. But that's ok, you love your country, can't take it away from you. Life is pretty much suck where ever you are so many of us monger to forget reality. It is a healthy debate.

As for me, I leave for SE asia in 2 weeks to live for good. I guess I'm not into the rat race and just want to be lazy. The only thing I can say is, my opinion of course, we are rich in material things in the US and other industrialize countries but we are very poor in soul. In poorer countries, people only have souls to compensate for the lack of materials. I guess I thrive for the latter.

Good luck to you all mongers, whereever you are

Bill Buxton
06-26-06, 11:47
I think I am a good guy but want to say I never changed over there once.I respected everyone and had a great time.I saw many guys that did not do the same MANILA,ANGELIS,MAKATI, and that's how easy it was.

As far as the support from there respected countries go I am sure there regular checks were not intended for living in any other countries other than theres.Thats all no problem just wanted to say that.And as far as rich goes most over there would not be considered rich in the eyes of there own countryman.

WOW, When you push the right buttons they come ah runnin from everywhere,I hope it last forever...


Get on the TIT you are all right about one thing,TIMES ARE CHANGING everywhere,you never know what young senator from your country might make waves about this subject and get the ball Rollin.
B.B...

Columpuss
06-27-06, 09:53
BB

that's all that's ever asked from any monger(er) when visiting other countries to monger, RESPECT EVERYTHING.
When you walk around big chested, you just get disrespectful laughters from the locals. Now you are no longer the guys from the civilized West but a drunken idiot.

Bill Buxton
06-27-06, 11:32
BB

that's all that's ever asked from any monger(er) when visiting other countries to monger, RESPECT EVERYTHING.
When you walk around big chested, you just get disrespectful laughters from the locals. Now you are no longer the guys from the civilized West but a drunken idiot.I wish all that go would remember that.Not sure if its the booz or the fact that they can have whatever they want for gals,hard to tell.

B.B...

Bart9000
06-30-06, 06:03
If they were all coming to do shit jobs for less money it would be fine. How about when they all need welfare, free housing, free health care and food stamps? Who the fuck do you think is going to pay for that? The tax payer is. So when we already have record debt please explain to me how 50 million unskilled, uneducated workers that earn less than 12k per year is going to help the country.


I'm of the understanding that social spending is a pittance relative to corporate welfare, military spending etc.....I would sure as fuck rather have $75 tax dollars paying for a poor mexican woman's sonogram than a case of coke served to the troops by Haliburton. This is a non-issue drummed up to get ignorant white trash to vote hypocritical facist I mean Republican.

Poor people are consumers....in fact, they are much better consumers on a percentage basis than are wealthy people (this is known in economics as the marginal propensity to consume).....they spend in the aggregate, lots of money typically on high margin crap that puts money into business coffers, and causes the businesses to harness more manpower to produce more goods , probably employing other low wage workers (driving down unemployment, and increasing wages across the board), who buy more goods (I was being facetious with "crap" although there is a healthy degree of truth to it). If I remember correctly, this is known as the multiplier effect and is well substantiated.

B9k

PS It appears that this gentleman is quoting something from the far edge of conspiracy theorism, including possibly the belief in a physical "Lucifer"

I'm thinking more of a Utopian ideal (maybe I'm crazy).....put an uncorrupt (this could be tricky) UN in charge, incrementaly drop the national borders,maintain one military force for peacekeeping, let people live and work where they want to, enforce some minimal laws (about like Europe), put in some reasonable taxation, and start to take on the global problems like hunger, global warming. Now if this were done instantaneously, there would be mass chaos, but over the course of 30 years....

Bart9000
06-30-06, 14:56
It isn't that much different than what is being done in the European Union right now.]

While we are wandering around here way off topic, I feel somewhat compelled to comment on "Lucifer".

i personally have absolutely no problem with spirituality-whatever gets you through the night. I personally believe that there is power in the Universe that is beyond our comprehension, and how you choose to relate to it is a function of choice, and culture.

ORGANIZED RELIGION however, in my opinion is pretty much just a tool for controlling the non-governing class.....pretty much just an additional carrot and stick for keeping the working class sober, working, and hopefully only sleeping with THEIR wives. I can kind of understand where someone would go through their lives without getting a "big picture" view that would allow them to obtain this perception, and can see where some benefit may be obtained in daily living through examination of ancient accounts of behavior, parables, whatever......

However, it FRIES MY BRAIN to find that some people have a need so pronounced to have their and other's behavior regulated, that they find it necessary to constrain their own behavior through fear of eternal punishment by a fairy tale of a red horned man

B9k

Ron Murray
07-08-06, 14:48
Bart9000

Hit the Gym and start listening to www.blowmeuptom.com

He will assist you in getting your balls back.

Bart9000
07-08-06, 20:43
Ron,

I listen to Tom Leykis on a fairly regular basis.......you may note that he has a similar take on religion incidently "I understand that the person who bags my groceries has a need to believe in finding their reward in heaven"......or something to that effect

I assure you that my testicles are very large, and functioning quite well (in conjunction with a cock that is just a hair smaller than the point where women begin to complain that it is "too big"). Their function does not impede analysis or criticim however, and the expression of a desire for example that our ignorant, and unskilled and stupid (a subset that I strongly suspect probably includes yourself) being afraid of competition (from in some cases non English speakers with 6th grade eduations) not help to alleviate poverty beneath an arbitrary world border than runs below Texas, Arizona, and California is not an unmasculine one.

It does fry my brain however, that in a (for the time being-subject to change) first world country. in the 21st centuryI am being scolded and threatened with reprisal by a fairy tale from the middle ages, albeit by some marginal weirdo.

b9k

Digital Curry
07-09-06, 10:41
Almost everyone here seems to be missing the point. United we stand divided we fall. By blaming America's problems on immigrants, for people and minorities,you are helping rich corrupt corporations to rob the country, hijack our democracy, war profiteers and diffuse working people in the United States and around the world. The racism is part of the blame game to divide the American people and hold power amongst a group of criminals who steal elections, wage illegal preemptive wars to steal oil and advance empire, and who commit ethnic cleansing in American cities like New Orleans.

Wake up people! The top 1/4 of 1% have received 75% of the tax cuts. The national debt has doubled in the last five years. The United States is going bankrupt due to a stupid war, just like the Soviet Union and the British Empire before us.

We captured Saddam Hussein, there were no weapons of mass destruction. Why are we still in Iraq? Why have oil profits skyrocketed? Could it have anything to do with the entire Bush White House been oil millionaires? But the oil millionaires do not want you to look at their wealth, so they blame the problems on Mexican and Chinese immigrants.

The immigrants are doing all the work. That's not a threat, it's a benefit. The problem is that all the money that is being generated is being stolen by war profiteers. And you tolerate it cause you prefer to blame blacks and Mexicans and Asians.

Racism has always been used by the rich in power to divide the poor and middle-class. The time has comefor rich and poor, black and white, citizen and immigrant to unite and take back the American government. The United States government belongs people. Stop being pussys, pick up your phones and call your senator and Congressman.

It's an election year for Christ sake, your congressmen is going to listen. He has to be reelected!

And to you rich guys like tax breaks, ... tax breaks to help you if the government keeps adding to your debt. Only the billionaires are getting rich.

Please wake up. the Bush administration is not conservative. They are radicals. They have nothing to do with conservatism or Republicans. They are a splinter group of neoconservative radicals.

Notice how for the next three months the price of gasoline will lower as we approach the election. And notice how it will be lots of threats and talk about terrorism. They want you to be afraid so you the Republican. If you are afraid, you will not do the patriotic thing off to these corrupt traitors out of office.

United we stand, divided we fall. Stop the division of racism, you are only hurting yourself. This is not idealism, it's a fact.

below I to the liberty of editing Bart's commentary that I agreed with. Forgive me Bart...


...social spending is a pittance relative to corporate welfare, military spending etc..... This is a non-issue drummed up to get ignorant [citizens] to vote ... Republican.

Poor people are consumers....they spend lots of money typically on high margin crap that puts money into business coffers, and causes the businesses to harness more manpower to produce more goods , probably employing other low wage workers (driving down unemployment, and increasing wages across the board), who buy more goods ...etc....put an uncorrupt (this could be tricky) UN in charge, incrementaly drop the national borders,maintain one military force for peacekeeping, let people live and work where they want to, enforce some minimal laws (about like Europe), put in some reasonable taxation, and start to take on the global problems like hunger, global warming. Now if this were done instantaneously, there would be mass chaos, but over the course of 30 years....

Bart9000
07-12-06, 06:58
Good call Jackson.

Might I also recommend a sexpatriation thread....it's something we get into quite often on the AW board.

Some may say this thread doesn't belong on ISG....I have to maintain that it is unfortunate that there is a correlation between Amerian politics and my sex life

B9k

Jelly Donut
07-13-06, 02:18
Conventional political parties in the USA do not serve the principle interests of most of the readers on this board. Neither party is remotely interested in helping facilitate connections (of any kind) between American men and women outside the United States.

A lot of people who comment on American politics on the ISG do not seem to understand this. They have a specific line of "conservative" or "liberal" talking points, which is often short of original thinking and does not address practical questions. It's like they are on a rhetorical habitrail - although I admit sometimes thier posts are fun to read - they never deal with real ISG issues.

What do I mean by a practical question? I mean something that is tangible and important to you like, say, "why do I have to spend tons of my money to travel to Thailand or Colombia or Moldovia in order to meet these girls?" How could the laws and policies of the USA be adjusted to reduce these costs for me? How do I work the law and politics to get my girlfriend into the US for a short-term visit?

Or even more abstract practical questions like "would I trade off my dearest arguments about fiscal policy if I knew it would result in my getting laid by beautiful women on a regular basis"?

It seems to me that questions like these cut more to the core of ISG politics.

Bart9000
07-14-06, 05:45
You do have some valid points. Now I generally identify with the left because they are economically paternalistic (necessary in my opinion-I don't want to start a tangent), and socially less judgemental and generally (there are exceptions-Tipper Gore had a bug up her ass about censoring song lyrics) more laizes faire. Also they embrace rationalism, and intellectualism whereas the right gets into "common sense"-simplistic answers that are mostly much more wrong than they are right.

That being said, it is problematic for me to be on the same team with the people who came up with feminism, and sexual harassment......I generally just take the position that only a simpleton blindly jumps onto one side or another, embracing whole platform regardless of whether or not it is his self interest......


B9k

Prefer Anal
07-15-06, 12:06
[QUOTE=Digital Curry]"Almost everyone here seems to be missing the point.
Wake up people! The top 1/4 of 1% have received 75% of the tax cuts."

They deserve the tax cuts:

People with incomes $200,000 and over pay 42.7% of the taxes, $377 Billion.
People with incomes $100,000 to 200,000 pay 24.1% of the taxes, $213 Billion.

People with incomes $75,000 to 100,000 pay 12.8% of the taxes, $113 Billion.

People with incomes 50,000 to 75,000 pay 12.9% of the taxes $114 Billion.

People with incomes of $40,000 to 50,000 pay 4.4% of the taxes, or $39 Billion, and

people with incomes of$30,000 to 40,000 pay only 3.4% of the taxes, or $30 Billion!

Finally, people with incomes of only $20,000 to 30,000 pay only 1.1% of the taxes, or $10 Billion!

More info: the TOP 1% of income earners pay 33.6% of all the taxes!

"We captured Saddam Hussein, there were no weapons of mass destruction:"

Despite the mainstream media and the Democrats' lying to the contrary, several chemical weapons have been found that qualify as WMD. But people have ignored the evidence...since it would blow a hole in their 'Bush Lied, people died' nonsense. To be fair, the Bush Administration has done little to correct the record on this issue.

Now a new report from the Pentagon sheds some light on just how many WMDs have been found, and it's a lot. We're not just talking an old Sarin shell here and there. No less than 500 chemical weapons have been found since 2003, according to a recently declassified defense department intelligence report. The weapons are of the mustard gas and Sarin nerve gas variety...nasty stuff.

Bart9000
07-15-06, 17:48
Can you document the sources on any of your tax figures. I've seen the right wing media figures use some pretty creative math to make their cases.....or just outright lie with math.....most of their followers don't have advanced degrees in quantitative subjects. Oh yes, I know "That Rush Limbaugh is a good man, he wouldn't lie"

Just quick and dirty, people on your low end of 20-30k are in like a 15% tax bracket

People who are in the 100-200K bracket pay about 28% give or take a bit.....and by the way, they have a lot more access to tax avoidance vehicles here, but I won't get into that. I think that the top marginal rate now is like 35%

So ROUGHLY people in the high range pay on percentage basis twice as much tax

So with an equal distribution of the population between the two tax brackets, if the 20-30K set is paying 1.1, then the 100-200K should be paying 2.2%....you claim they are paying 24%

Now, are you really going to tell me that there are as many people in this country making 100-200 as there are making 20-30K.

I'm calling bullshit.


The chemical WMD thing is a mamby-pamby rationalization. The American public was sold on NUKES to have the idiot oil war

This is like the police getting massive funding to to stage a massive multi-state manhunt for a serial murderer........and then them coming back without their killer but saying......"yea, but we picked up a couple of nickel and dime pot dealers"

Yes, Saddam Hussein is a scumbag, and a ruthless cutthroat (although we are finding out the hard way that to some degree he HAD to be to keep the warring factions under control.......however, there are plenty of scumbags who are world leaders......why didn't we take them out......oh yea, they aren't major oil produces.....I suppose it is just an accident that energy prices have doubled.
B9k

Chocha Monger
07-15-06, 18:51
Bart,

You forgot to mention that Rush Limbaugh is also a monger. He got busted with his remaining Viagra stash upon returning from a pussy pounding trip to the Dominican Republic. ;)

Bart9000
07-15-06, 19:01
I actually sent that story suggestion to a major national newspaper......trying to demonstrate that once again, the guardians of our moral values don't hold themselves to the standards they prescribe for the rest of us.

Here is the funny thing. This prefer anal guy is probably a social liberal if he is posting on this board, but ID's with the right wing because of their bullshit about taxes, business, and economics. I actually used to be like this until I became highly educated in those subjects

B9k

Beavis
07-15-06, 19:18
Yes and just how are we going to pay for this senseless war. The one that we are borrowing money to pay for. Then on top of that Dumbo and Cheney are sucking up to their corporate buddies to give amnesty to the unknown number of illegal aliens. Each and every one of them are going to have 3-10 children that are also going to need amnesty, welfare, food stamps, government housing, free health care, ect.

We have 300,000 homeless veterans in this country who went to war for us but instead of helping them we have to roll out the red carpet for a bunch of fucking wetbacks. The terrorists we need to worry about are U.S, Citizens who reside in Washington, D.C. I for one am very proud to say that I did not vote for him.

Bart9000
07-15-06, 20:11
OK

You are on the right track here, so I won't berate you:)



Social spending is a pittance relative to what is kicked over to the military industrial complex, and other corporations usually in the form of tax breaks. I't's basically a non issue that the right uses to drum up business......it's easy to do because it's a visible issue, and on the surface reeks of unfairness, and paritism of people who are different from you....it is human nature to be resentful given that level of information about a subject. If it werent' there, there would be people starving (and killing and stealing) in the streets (yes, I know, some of them put themselves in the situation through stupidity and irresponsibility), and we as a relatively wealthy nation find this to be unseemly enough to throw a little money at it

I don't know a lot about the situation with the veterans......you should check your stats however....as I proved below, a lot of people just flat out lie when they are trying to get funding and political support.

The big complaint with imigrants is that they are taking jobs.. Here is the thing. I work with a lot of these guys....in my estimation, they mostly have a sixth grade education, and know maybe 100 words in English. Now even if they are willing to work harder for less money, do you know anyone who can't compete successfully with someone like this......if in fact you do, they are probably going to be at the bottom of the heap anyways.

Also, increasing the population of working poor is good for the economy.......THEY BUY THINGS (on a percentage basis much more than wealthy people-I can put you to sleep with econ talk if you want me to), which creates profit, and spurs additional demand.....increases the demand for labor, which increases wages across the board.

B9k

Ocean Traveler
07-15-06, 20:50
I know I should keep my mouth shut but here goes.

The average illegal alien costs $87,000 more than they will ever produce and that's before Social Security is added in. The average family of 4 in California costs the taxpayers $57,000 per year!

It does't save the US economy money. If it did, why do the states with the largest illegal populations have massive budget problems? It is cost shifting; so one person gets thier lawn cut cheaper but we all subsidize it through taxes.

Military spending as a percentage of the overall budget is historically and for a time of war it is unheard of.

Over 65% of the Federal Budget is entitlements: Medicaid, Medicare, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc. All programs started since WWII and dramatically expanded under Johnson during the War of Poverty. We have spent trillions on that war with very little sign of success. When do we "redeploy" on subsidizing failure?

Why pay billions for illegal aliens on one hand and pay billions in welfare subsidizing unemployment and failure on the other? Call me crazy but somethings wrong with this picture.

Beavis
07-15-06, 20:52
Of course the poor buy more than the rich as they are an overwhelmingly larger group of people. If the aliens come here to just work they aren't hurting the economy but, when the majority of them are sending every dime they can out of the country, how is this helping the economy?

Once they become citizens they are going to change drastically. Just watch and see, perhaps you work with some of them but, I have lived and worked in their country for many years and have a son there. Once you have witnessed the average level of class and living standards you won't want 50 million of them living in your country. Yes there are some good people there but not many of them swim the river.

The point is why must be bend over backwards to help these illegal aliens when we have plenty of U.S. citizens who should be helped first. This is indeed going to add heavily to an already ridiculous debt we have, and the only way it will ever be paid back is by increasing taxes. My wife is from Colombia and I spent over 10,000 USD and almost 2 years to get her here. Then these assholes want to allow the illegals to stay without any punishment and be granted amnesty? Yes I have a big problem with this.

If this goes through then they should refund every dollar spent on immigration and filing fees to each and every person who ever brought an alien here as a spouse. Also, an immigrant coming in on a K1 or any other immigrant visa must have extensive health checks, bloodwork, and medical reviews performed prior to entry. Upon entry, before their status can be adjusted these procedures must be done again in the U.S. Who is going to examine these people. I won't count on that happening but it isn't going to matter to me. If Bush doesn't get us blown off of the map before he gets out of office I will soon be residing outside of the United States. It will take me about 3 years to make this happen but I refuse to have my tax dollars spent on paying for a war a I never supported or feeding some illegal alien's kid.

Hillary or McCain in 2008? Makes one shudder at the thought.

Beavis
07-15-06, 21:08
The 300,000 was a figure that my mother (a private high school teacher) got from some source but here is what I found:

According to the United States Department of Veterans Affairs (“VA”), nearly 33% of the nation’s adult homeless population served in the United States Armed Services. The VA further states that on any given day, as many as 200,000 male and female veterans are living on the streets or in shelters, and perhaps twice as many experience homelessness at some point during the course of a year. As if to underscore the seriousness of the problem of homeless military veterans throughout the nation, the VA characterizes the predicament another way: currently, the number of homeless male and female Vietnam era veterans is greater than the number of service persons who died during the Vietnam War.


VIVA LA MIGRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Beavis
07-15-06, 21:13
Does this mean that we need to help every homeless person who ever served in the armed forces ? No it doesn't but, these people served their country and should rank higher on the help list than illegal aliens.

Bart9000
07-15-06, 22:03
The 300,000 was a figure that my mother (a private high school teacher) got from some source but here is what I found:

According to the United States Department of Veterans Affairs (“VA”), nearly 33% of the nation’s adult homeless population served in the United States Armed Services. The VA further states that on any given day, as many as 200,000 male and female veterans are living on the streets or in shelters, and perhaps twice as many experience homelessness at some point during the course of a year. As if to underscore the seriousness of the problem of homeless military veterans throughout the nation, the VA characterizes the predicament another way: currently, the number of homeless male and female Vietnam era veterans is greater than the number of service persons who died during the Vietnam War.


VIVA LA MIGRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A couple things real quick...

Are you sure that there is a disproportionate percentage of the general populace that are homeless vets. What percentage of the overall populace currently living did serve in the Vietnam war......I don't know for sure, but it is possible that there is simply a representative cross sample and you (with encouragement) are focusing on the vets.

Homelessness itself is a complex issue (correlates highly with mental illness and substance abuse), and it cannot necessarily be solved by simply writing a check. This is a wild ass guess, but I strongly suspect that even if we were to give every homeless vet 4 months rent free in a decent apartment, $1500, and a decent job that would more than pay his rent and living expenses, he would still be back on the street in a short time. It might astound you to know (this is something I've heard, but don't have a source)for example that when it gets to be -15 to -20 in Chicago, the police round up the homeless guys to make them go to a shelter.....and a good number of them have to be dragged, kicking and screaming all the way there.

Service to country is awfully abstract, and hard to quantify(for recompense).....you are basically saying that our Vietnam vets got a raw deal....you won't get an argument from me about that, although military service (assuming you don't get killed doing it) is like anything else you get out of it what you put into it. My father volunteered for Vietnam (though he was going to get drafted anyways), got out after 5 years, and then served another 17 in reserve, a good portion of that time as n E-8, getting nice fat paychecks for a part time career...now when he retires in 18 months, he is going to get big fat pension, on top of his big fat pension from work (he went to college free on the GI bill by the way-I owe 52K myself), Social Security, and healthy personal savings.


I hear you about the hassles in bringing your wife here legally....my take on this however isn't that everyone should have to suffer like you did.....but that NO ONE should.
B9k


Adding on: I realized what was bothering me about the situation....the problems aren't the least bit interrelated in my opinion. In my estimation, you could line a National Guardsman every 10 feet along the border with orders to shoot to kill, round up all the others, and ship them back, and you would still have your veteran problems....on the other hand, you could open the borders and let every Juan, Julio and Sergio in Mexico (yes I'm ignoring illegals from other parts of the world) come up here to work if they feel like it.....and still have your vet problems.

I was going to bring up some stat mumbo jumbo about skewed samples, and the tail wagging the dog, but I don't think it's necessary in light of the preceding.

Beavis
07-16-06, 06:49
Regardless of the # of vets, it was simply an example that we have plenty of problems here we should address before we try to fix everybody elses. The immigration bill is a joke but then again, what has this adminstration did that wasn't a joke? Just my opinion but, my mnd is made up I am out of here ASAP prediction 06/01/09. By then we should have plenty of homeless Mexicans so we will see how they get treated. I could give a Rat's ass, lol.

Bart9000
07-16-06, 07:16
I know I should keep my mouth shut but here goes.

The average illegal alien costs $87,000 more than they will ever produce and that's before Social Security is added in. The average family of 4 in California costs the taxpayers $57,000 per year!

It does't save the US economy money. If it did, why do the states with the largest illegal populations have massive budget problems? It is cost shifting; so one person gets thier lawn cut cheaper but we all subsidize it through taxes.

Military spending as a percentage of the overall budget is historically and for a time of war it is unheard of.

Over 65% of the Federal Budget is entitlements: Medicaid, Medicare, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc. All programs started since WWII and dramatically expanded under Johnson during the War of Poverty. We have spent trillions on that war with very little sign of success. When do we "redeploy" on subsidizing failure?

Why pay billions for illegal aliens on one hand and pay billions in welfare subsidizing unemployment and failure on the other? Call me crazy but somethings wrong with this picture.


Ok, quote your sources, and substantiate it....this sounds like more Rush Limbaugh or clone therof type bullshit.....now there may be a grain of truth to this-what I have been maybe somewhat erroneously referring to as social spending is welfare, subsidized housing, and food stamps, which don't amount to much in the grand scheme of things....if you throw in subsidized student loans, medicaid and medicare, school lunches, and whatever, it may get to be a decent sized chunk..........I have to ask this however.....do you REALLY want to get rid of say Medicaid/Medicare? I have an 86 year old Grandmother who is in the hospital about every 3-4 months, plus takes all kinds of expensive pills etc. Do you have ny idea what health insurance for her would cost? If you could even get a private insurer to write her a policy, it would probably cost between $1000-2000 a month. The government at least has the ability to dictate terms and regulations to health care providers, and is consequently at an advantage for purchasing healthcare for senior citizens. Same thing with student loans and other education entitlements.....are you aware that a large segment of African Americans have come up from generally lesser means and become upper middle class/lower upper class ("blackistocracy")......alot of this was because education entitlements helped get them educated, into non-menial jobs, and eventually a great success. If they didn't have those, many would probably, well frankly still poor and would be getting maligned by you for getting social benefits for that....talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't........

By the way do you have any idea what we give to scummy corporations in the form of tax breaks?

B9k

Hardbarg
07-16-06, 10:43
[QUOTE=Digital Curry]"Almost everyone here seems to be missing the point.
Wake up people! The top 1/4 of 1% have received 75% of the tax cuts."

They deserve the tax cuts:

People with incomes $200,000 and over pay 42.7% of the taxes, $377 Billion.
People with incomes $100,000 to 200,000 pay 24.1% of the taxes, $213 Billion.

People with incomes $75,000 to 100,000 pay 12.8% of the taxes, $113 Billion.

People with incomes 50,000 to 75,000 pay 12.9% of the taxes $114 Billion.

People with incomes of $40,000 to 50,000 pay 4.4% of the taxes, or $39 Billion, and

people with incomes of$30,000 to 40,000 pay only 3.4% of the taxes, or $30 Billion!

Finally, people with incomes of only $20,000 to 30,000 pay only 1.1% of the taxes, or $10 Billion!

More info: the TOP 1% of income earners pay 33.6% of all the taxes!


Can you document the sources on any of your tax figures. I've seen the right wing media figures use some pretty creative math to make their cases.....or just outright lie with math.....most of their followers don't have advanced degrees in quantitative subjects...I'm calling bullshit.

http://www.house.gov/jec/publications/109/rr109-36.pdf

Some examples:

AGI $200,000 and over pay ~$313 Billion
AGI $100,000 to 200,000 pay ~$163 Billion
AGI $20,000 to 30,000 pay ~$9 Billion

The top 1% of tax filers paid 34.27% of federal personal income taxes in 2003.

Bullshit is in the eye of the beholder.

MJG Dogs
07-16-06, 10:51
Does this mean that we need to help every homeless person who ever served in the armed forces ? No it doesn't but, these people served their country and should rank higher on the help list than illegal aliens.


Bravo Beavis...

And veterans who served this country should not be demonized by the leftist in this country either and should not be cheated out of benefits, education and healthcare by the far right....

It is disgraceful to see veterans treated so shamefully......

Beavis
07-16-06, 13:25
I totally agree. I have never served in the armed forces and nobody in my family ever has either so I am not at all biased by this. I was merely trying to demonstrate how our leaders could do a better job of establishing their priorities. The sad part is the future doesn't look any brighter. The amnesty is only a foundation for undermining the integrity of leadership. To put it in nautical terms the ship is sailing "not under command", which means by some unusual circumstances they are unable to comply with the rules.

Since there is a good level of intellect involved in this thread:

Who actually believes that Ken Lay is dead? His death was awful convienient at a prominent time? He was cremated so his ashes could be left over from the party they had before he left the country. I say B.S.but have only theory.

Anyway enough of that. Since we haven't got the alligators in place yet:

http://www.resist.com/other/border_patrol.swf

It won't be too much longer you will find me near some large mountains sipping a cold Aguila.

Bart9000
07-16-06, 21:19
[QUOTE=Prefer Anal]

http://www.house.gov/jec/publications/109/rr109-36.pdf

Some examples:

AGI $200,000 and over pay ~$313 Billion
AGI $100,000 to 200,000 pay ~$163 Billion
AGI $20,000 to 30,000 pay ~$9 Billion

The top 1% of tax filers paid 34.27% of federal personal income taxes in 2003.

Bullshit is in the eye of the beholder.

Ok,

Appearently, my quick and dirty analysis was in error. There are a lot of flat out lies and bullshit out there, and I mistakenly assumed that this was something cooked up by some asshole on talk radio (leftists are also guilty of lying like sacks os shit........in the eighties, it got widely reported that there were like 10 Million homeless......it turned out to be a massive exaggeration created out of thin air by an activist named Mitch Snyder) Although I believe myself to be more or less correct about the rates paid, I forgot about the social engineering that is administered through the tax code. Now some parts of that engineering I agree with (mortgage interest deduction-about the only fighting chance that a lot of families have towards decent retirement is complete home ownership), and others I have some issues with (child deductions-pay for your own fucking kids.) Another is the earned income tax credit, which I will have a word or two about:

The purpose of the earned income tax credit is to incentivise a "marginal player", right on the border of not needing social services to work, and hopefully some day earn enough to be fully self sufficient. I'll come back to this in a minute.

I can see where someone would be profoundly offended at the appeareant unfairness of the situation of "being Atlas", and carrying the weight of society on your shoulders.

However, I have to say a few things....first of all....who gives a fuck about the aggregate-the world isn't composed of two people, one rich and paying for 96% of public services, the other poor, and getting a free ride. Each person only files one personal tax return, and the amounts paid don't look too much like sodomy to me.....without looking again, the group between 100-200K pays on average about 18,000.....just pulling out a number of say 119,000, that is about 15%.........SCANDALOUS....the aggregate numbers quoted say more about the wealth and success of a good portion of our county than they do imply any unfairness in the amount of "load" being carried.

Let me lay something out here. It is a little more complex, and less easy to come to than a conclusion of "I'm the workhorse carrying a bunch of deadbeats"

First of all, were you to increase the tax burden on the low end, you would likely knock the people receiving the earned income credit out of the workforce and into being recipients of social services......then you might actually have something to cry about with the new number people on welfare/food stamps/section 8 housing.....currently the percentage spent on those programs is minimal (I don't have any exact figures handy)

Furthermore, there is more interdependence between high income earners and low than most people realize. People who earn high incomes do so because ultimately, they, or someone they work for sells something. Low income earners BUY THINGS......and do so at much higher percentages (and incidently generally buy things that are much more profitable to the seller) than do the more affluent (this is known in econ as the marginal propensity to save/marginal propensity to consume). . This spending of theirs (which gets repeated inciently as the same dollar gets spent time and again by low wage workers, being paid by the wealthy as demand for products and services continues-refered to as the multiplier effect) is what is ultimately putting the fat paycheck into the high earners pocket. Just pulling some numbers out of the air, someone could make 1 million a year at a 34% bracket, or (due to a reduction in economic activity) $500,000 at 17% basically a wash.........although the real life interaction is obviously more complex than this, I think I made my point.

B9k

PS Regarding Ken Lay's death, I would like to have the corpse DNA tested, with the process overseen by Michael Moore, Al Franken, Senator Joseph Biden, and about a half dozen pissed off investors.

Prefer Anal
07-17-06, 03:34
I actually sent that story suggestion to a major national newspaper......trying to demonstrate that once again, the guardians of our moral values don't hold themselves to the standards they prescribe for the rest of us.

Here is the funny thing. This prefer anal guy is probably a social liberal if he is posting on this board, but ID's with the right wing because of their bullshit about taxes, business, and economics. I actually used to be like this until I became highly educated in those subjects

B9kI also consider myself highly educated in these subjects, but not elitist....and get my news/facts from a variety of sources. Yes, I could be considered a social liberal, but do not "ID" with the right wing anymore than I do the left. I consider myself more libertarian than anything. I don't consider the "right wing" stance on taxes, business, and economics to be any more/less bullshit than the left's.

Ocean Traveler
07-17-06, 03:45
There is a difference between marginal tax rate and mean collected tax rate. In other words: someone earning a small income may be in the 15% marginal rate but after all their deductions they don’t pay 15%. What they pay is the mean collected tax rate which is more like 3%. The rich may be at a 24% rate but after all their tax planning they end up at 21%. If you compare the mean collected rates you have succeeded in “soaking the rich”.

You may not believe it but ask any successful tax accountant.

The Income Tax numbers are subject to a lot of emotional debate but they are only a small part of the Federal Budget. There are a lot of very educated members out there who could supply the correct number but I will guess 35%. The rest of the budget is all the other forms of taxes such as cigarette, alcohol, fuel, excise, corporate income, franchise, import, communication, gaming, unemployment and other taxes. Haven’t you heard about Tax Freedom Day? It’s around May 1st.

The low earners pay a disproportionate share of taxes as a function of spendable income. Stand in line at a convenience store and watch the poor buying cigarettes, beer and lottery tickets; all very heavily taxed and all voluntary.

Don’t forget Social Security. It is 13% of your paycheck and uses a broken model. The entire system will be bankrupt in 15 years but that’s another emotional “trigger argument” like Granny’s Medicare.

You can bemoan the tax breaks for the rich corporations, as some one did in response to my earlier post, but where are we going to work? Successful, large corporations are the foundations of powerful economies. The same economies that can afford all the benefits you crave.

The rich start businesses that employ people not the poor. The Federal government cut income taxes yet collected more than ever. How can that be? It works every time it’s tried and as the rich get richer the poor get richer too because there is more jobs with better pay. The underlying economic principals are undeniable.

You wonder why jobs flee the USA? A UAW auto worker costs $72 per hour will all the retirement, lifetime medical benefits and other fringes added in. In China a worker cost $42 a month! For what you pay a UAW employee in 1 day you can hire a Chinaman for over a year and he won’t sue you for wrongful discharge, sexual harassment, repetitive motion injuries or want paid Family Medical Leave. I know, I’ve been there.

Last but not least, quality mongering is very expensive. I have been doing it myself for a few years but only recently found this website. Perhaps my future posts can be in a different section with a few pictures.

Unless of course you would like to know why Latin countries are poor and we are not. The answer is quite simple but doesn’t fit with any of the contemporary emotional arguments.

Bart9000
07-18-06, 02:38
I understand the appeal of libertarianism, but can't support it. There are places in our society that we need paternalism.

I used to be a financial advisor and was the 401k plan admin of a car dealership. In that capacity, I got to witness John Q Public attempting to act as their own portfolio managers. Saving long boring explanations, suffice it to say that most people are not equipped to successfully manage their own investments.....yet that responsibility has gotten shifted off of the corporations (I've never seen a defined benefit pension plan), and onto "Joe Six pack"......trust me, the results are going to be disastrous, and a lot of people will be working as a greeter at wall mart well into their seventies to keep the bills paid. This includes incidently a lot of whitecollar professional people such as techies and engineers....they tend to think that they know what they are doing, but mostly don't.

Businesses (particularly corporations) have shown countless times that they won't behave themselves if left to their own devices. It is necessary to police them through the SEC, EPA, FDA, etc etc.

Now the fucking social issues however, the government needs to stay the fuck out of.

B9k

Chocha Monger
07-18-06, 09:00
If you're poor you need certain things to dull the pain of your miserable existance: cheap beer to forget your reality; high fat foods to ease the hunger; nicotine to feel good; lottery tickets to create false hope; and cheap flesh to expend your frustrations. This last one usually results in poor people having more children than the rich. More children less resources, less opportunity to climb out the gutter. You get the general idea.

Being poor means that you're more likely to do dangerous work, and more likely to get injured, but you're less likely to have health insurance. As a result, while your broken and broke ass is sitting at home the rich get to pay for the up keep of you and the entire tribe.

Does all that suck? Maybe, but you can't be rich unless some other bastard gets to be poor and that is exactly why international mongering exists today. The alternative would be to replace capitalism with socialism. If we had used all of the money spent in Iraq to wipe out poverty in Latin America, for example, the region would cease to be a mongering destination. The women would become accustomed to a standard of living much like the US and demand much higher prices. Just take a look at some of the grumbling in the Colombia thread due to the recent sharp price increases caused by an influx of free spending gringos.

As for the illegal immigration issue, it can only be solved by fixing the economies in Mexico and Central America. However, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Financially secure chicas are not going to sell themselves to gringos for a few pesos.

So what do you do? Do you keep them poor and hungry with nice bodies so that they're always be ready to swallow your jizz for a few greenbacks, or do you raise them to the same economic level as American chicks?

I'll leave this moral dilemma for guys like Rush Limbaugh to figure out.

Beavis
07-18-06, 09:50
While we are discussing morality, how many people think that Ken Lay is actually dead? I bet he could be reading this.

Starchild2012
07-19-06, 11:00
You American this...You American that...

Truth is American politics and American people are the cause of 90 percent of the world problems.

Your selfish policies and capitalism has virtually destroyed this world....what with global warming, depleting natural resources, high fuel prices, war in every continent in the name of democrazy...You guys are the cause for every major event in the world now a days...

Ohhh god...from where to begin your sorry a s s state of affairs....You guys have left such a huge mess in the past 200 years of your history..that it will take another millenia to clear up your mess...

There are virtually millions of issues that you guys have put your hands on and burned the whole world in it...

This is now impossible for a man or even a university to guage the mess you guys have created.

I will try and start with the hot burning issue thats threateing to start another world war.

Yes, The Isreal thing...What's with you guys and Israel...are you guys in blind love with Israel or something....just like what ameircan women does and you guys rant about it in just the other thread out here.....Israel too does the same thing...takes everything from your country in the name of aid and development and does everything opposite in the name of self defense ..mass murder and genocide...

Tell me one thing....The Arabs in the middle-east have not even killed a "SINGLE" Jew during the world war....All the atrocities, holocaust, mass murder were carried out by The Europeans. Then why make Arabs suffer for the crime's done in europe. Why not make the germans answerable or take care of the JEWS now.

Where are you guys now, You will not get to see the real picture what's hapenning in the middle east, 'cos all your media CNN, FOX, ABC is just a propaganda tool, they do not show the pain and grief of innocents .....I hate too the arabs and the terrorist alike..BUT why make the innocent children and pregnant women suffer ...is it fair...

300 Killed in lebanon...25 killed in Isreal till date..Is it fair at all....They are bombarding the airport, bridges, power house....think if ever..the terrorist will hide there ....

If you guys have the courage...go through the land and pin point the terrorists and kill them...whole world is with you..BUT why just aimlessly bombard the whole city of innocents..does it have any meaning..

Where are you guys now..The richest nation on the planet...the most charitable nation on earth...Not even an ink here ...Just complete silence....

Sporadic
07-19-06, 11:23
You are one fortunate guy!

I only wish I could happily blame everything; every injustice, every tragedy, every pulled muscle or pimple on my ass, on the USA.

I suggest a total boycott. Why don´t you give up everything from the evil empire? Start with your Pentium chip.

That will show them!

Occam
07-19-06, 14:00
for future reference, do things in the following order:
1 - learn english.
2 - study history.
3 - post on the internet.


tell me one thing....the arabs in the middle-east have not even killed a "single" jew during the world war....all the atrocities, holocaust, mass murder were carried out by the europeans. then why make arabs suffer for the crime's done in europe. why not make the germans answerable or take care of the jews now.from http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php

the arabs took the side of the axis, either overtly like iraq or indirectly by withholding support for the allies. grand mufti of jerusalem haj amin al-husseini issued a fatwa- "summons to a holy war against britain" in may 1941. the mufti's widely heralded proclamation against britain was declared in iraq, where he was instrumental in "the pro-nazi" iraqi revolt of 1941. british troops put down the rebellion and the mufti escaped via tehran to italy and eventually to berlin.

once in berlin, the mufti received an enthusiastic reception by the "islamische zentralinstitut" and the whole islamic community of germany, which welcomed him as the "führer of the arabic world." in an introductory speech, he called the jews the "most fierce enemies of the muslims" and an "ever corruptive element" in the world.

husseini soon became an honored guest of the nazi leadership and met on several occasions with hitler. he personally lobbied the führer against the plan to let jews leave hungary, fearing they would immigrate to palestine. he also strongly intervened when adolf eichman tried to cut a deal with the british government to exchange german pows for 5000 jewish children who also could have fled to palestine. the mufti's protests with the ss were successful, as the children were sent to death camps in poland instead. one german officer noted in his journals that the mufti would liked to have seen the jews "preferably all killed." on a visit to auschwitz, he reportedly admonished the guards running the gas chambers to work more diligently. throughout the war, he appeared regularly on german radio broadcasts to the middle east, preaching his pro-nazi, anti-semitic message to the arab masses back home.

haj amin al-husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. his place as leader of the radical, nationalist palestinian arabs was taken by his nephew mohammed abdel-raouf arafat as qudwa al-hussaeini, better known as yasser arafat.

George90
07-19-06, 20:27
Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat.

Intelligent post, Occam. Note that equally intelligent posts can be made which favor the Palestinians and other Arabs and do not favor the Jews/Israelis. The whole story of Avraham Stern and his gang of terrorists is never mentioned in the media. He makes Arafat look like a boy scout. The British eventually did to him what the Israelis do to Hamas, "targeted killing". Yitzak Shamir and Menachem Begin were also terrorists and blew up the King David Hotel. They killed dozens of British soldeirs, Arabs civilians, AND Jewish civilians in that and other bombings.

Occam
07-20-06, 02:12
The Arabs in the middle-east have not even killed a "SINGLE" Jew during the world war....All the atrocities, holocaust, mass murder were carried out by The Europeans. I was responding to a specific little bit of propaganda. If you want to try and make "Arafat look like a boy scout", that's your business.

Chocha Monger
07-20-06, 06:51
Backlash emerges against Latino culture By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Wed Jul 19, 4:00 AM ET



NORCROSS, GA. - In some ways, the traveling taco stand has become a symbol of the rise of Hispanics in the US. Here in Gwinnett County, Ga., it wasn't any different – until lawmakers outlawed the $1 street-corner taco vendor last month.

Hispanic purveyors of the workingman's lunch represent an immigration policy many Americans feel has gone haywire. In many interior states where the Hispanic immigration had been minimal until recently, residents are encountering more new faces speaking an incomprehensible language and infiltrating street corners with their cilantro-spiced fare.

In resisting the sudden and growing influence of Latino culture, some cities and towns across America are requiring the use of English and restricting culinary mores and even the Hispanic tradition of sitting on the front porch.

"People are ... realizing how much [illegal immigration] is costing them, they watched the May 1 demonstrations, and they are mad," says Richard Lamm, a former Colorado governor, who codirects the Institute for Public Policy Studies in Denver. "They're reaching for whatever tool is available, and some of those tools are harsh and not very sophisticated."

More Hispanics – legal and illegal – live in Gwinnett County than anywhere else in Georgia. The Hispanic population in the county has swelled to more than 105,000, expanding from 10 to 15 percent of the total since 2000, according to the US Census. Displays of Hispanic culture – from used tire shops to carnicerías, or butcher shops – dot the Buford Highway in Norcross, Ga., a bustling outpost of Atlanta.

The influx of immigrants in states outside the Big Six immigration states – California, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Texas, and Florida – has changed the landscape so dramatically, so quickly, that the voting constituency has hardly been able to keep up, experts say. In 2002, illegal immigrants living in the US used $2,700 worth of government services per person more than they paid in taxes, according to the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization that advocates curtailing immigration levels.

Powerless to seal or control the US borders themselves, locals are taking their own action.

Last month, the Gwinnett County Board of Commissioners became one of the first in the country to ban mobile taco stands, which officials said were cluttering street corners. One Gwinnett politician described the proliferation of rolling taco stands as "gypsy-fication."

Nashville, Tenn., is now considering a similar law. "I don't think you'd see this generalized fear if they were selling grits," says William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

Others have taken even more flagrant actions toward Hispanic immigrants. A Philadelphia sub shop owner, Joseph Vento, has a sign up that reads: "This is America. When Ordering, Speak English." In Ohio, Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones has put up a yellow sign saying "Illegal Aliens Here," with an arrow pointing to the county jail.

The mayor of Hazleton, Pa., Friday signed a law that punishes landlords for renting to illegals and mandates that all official city business be conducted in English. Since 2000, the percentage of Latinos in Hazleton has jumped from 5 percent to nearly 30 percent.

" ... [T]o illegal immigrants and those who would hire or abet them in any way ... You are no longer welcome," Mayor Lou Baretta wrote in a letter posted on the city's website.

While anti-immigrant hate groups increased 33 percent in the past five years, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, overall acceptance of immigration is at a five-year high, according to a recent Gallup Poll.

"What we're seeing is little towns in Kansas trying to ban people from sitting on their front porch, because that's what [Hispanics] do," says Gabriela Lemus, of the League of United Latin American Citizens in Washington. "On the other hand, there is a real challenge in places like Little Rock, Ark., and Cicero, Ill., where [towns] aren't prepared for a community they didn't expect to have."

To Mexicans, "tacos are life," says Juan Martinez, a construction worker in Norcross. Mr. Martinez, a green-card holder from central Mexico, prefers to make his own tacos, but says that mobile taco stands serve many Hispanic workers stuck at construction sites. The lack of protest about the ban in Gwinnett County doesn't surprise him. "This is not our country, we don't have the power," Martinez says. "[Americans] are going to do what they're going to do."

Still, these restrictions come about because of inaccurate stereotypes that all Hispanics are undocumented or poor, says Dan Tichenor, an immigration expert at the Eagleton Institute of Politics in New Brunswick, N.J. "Getting nostalgic about our own immigrant past, but dreading the latest newcomers, is something that has been around since Ben Franklin," he says.

The local ordinances are a forerunner to developing a national policy for immigration reform, says Mr. Frey. "Part of the price we have to pay before we come up with reasonable national solutions is this kind of interim action where local officials try to grandstand for small political gains," he says.

But such ordinances are little more than "feel-good" efforts by frustrated Americans, says Robert Nilles, a Hazleton city councilor. "It's a little funny in a way, because you're trying to control something you have no control over," he says.

Starchild2012
07-20-06, 07:05
occam, [i caught you red handed] [guys, get ready for the truth]

ooooooo..i'm so scared :) are you from fbi, cia or some propaganda group run by american govenrment :d

folks. a quick check of http://www.palestinefacts.org on whois.net reveals this strange facts:

domain id:81676797-lrms
domain name:palestinefacts.org
created on:27-dec-2001 21:20:24 utc
last updated on:12-jun-2006 18:15:01 utc
expiration date:27-dec-2008 21:20:24 utc
sponsoring registrar:network solutions llc (r63-lrms)
status:client transfer prohibited
registrant id:17703129-nsiv
registrant name:zoa
registrant organization:zoa
registrant street1:attn insert domainname here
registrant street2:care of network solutions
registrant street3:po box 447
registrant city:herndon
registrant state/province:va
registrant postal code:20172
registrant country:us
registrant phone:+1.5707088780
registrant phone ext.:
registrant fax:
registrant fax ext.:
registrant *****************@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com
admin id:17703129-nsiv
admin name:zoa
admin organization:zoa
admin street1:attn insert domainname here
admin street2:care of network solutions
admin street3:po box 447
admin city:herndon
admin state/province:va
admin postal code:20172
admin country:us
admin phone:+1.5707088780
admin phone ext.:
admin fax:
admin fax ext.:
admin *****************@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com
tech id:5358805-nsi
tech name:network solutions, llc.
tech organization:network solutions, llc.
tech street1:13200 woodland park drive
tech street2:
tech street3:
tech city:herndon
tech state/province:va
tech postal code:20171-3025
tech country:us
tech phone:+1.188864296
tech phone ext.:
tech fax:+1.5714344620

george90,

you are right, i have hardcore proof and it will be an eye opener to all.

at first, you would think why would the site do not have any contact us, about us page and why would the site on palestine, be run from us of a virgina state, that to hiding the address of the web site administrator.

since, when we americans have so much interests in palenstine history :)

now, here is the big ball of propaganda:

registrant name:zoa
registrant organization:zoa

now, who the heck is this zoa, how are they to know everything about palestine...no name, no organisation, no contacts..just zoa....hmmmmmm..let me check ever reliable google for answers....

hurreyyyy.....yurekaaaaaaaa..yahoooooo...seeeemmsss like zoa throws up 100000 hits....

the very first site folks:

www.zoa.org

translated into, "the zionist organization of america" hahahaha :d

do i need to write more....seems like mr. occam is a life long member of this organisation hell bent on brain-washing innocent and ignorent american minds.

looks like there are thousands of such sites run by zoa across the internet, intended on spreading false information to get sympathy from america and hiding the facts from common people.

a little peep on the website is more reveling:

what is the zoa?

since its founding in 1897, the zionist organization of america has been fighting for the jewish people and the land of israel. under the leadership of such illustrious presidents as supreme court justice louis brandeis, rabbi dr. abba hillel silver, and current national president morton a. klein, the zoa has been on the front lines of jewish activism.

wherever our message is needed, our voice is being heard.

the zoa is the only organization that documents and exposes palestinian arab violations of the road map plan. the zoa leads the efforts on behalf of american victims of palestinian arab terrorism. the zoa's campaigns have repeatedly led to the defeat of hostile critics of israel who were nominated for important government positions.

the zoa has played a key role in congress regarding victims of terrorism, keeping jerusalem unified under israeli sovereignty, fighting hamas and fatah, and working on the imposition of sanctions on syria and saudi arabia.

the zoa speaks out for israel - in reports, newsletters, and other publications...in speeches in synagogues, churches, and community events, in high schools and colleges from coast to coast...in e-mail action alerts...in op-eds and letters to the editor...in radio and television appearances by zoa leaders.

always on the front lines of pro-israel activism, zoa has made its mark.

"the zoa is the most credible advocate for israel on the american jewish scene today."
the wall street journal

"the zoa is one of the most important and influential jewish groups in the u.s. today."
the jerusalem post


ohhh..boy..i'm exhausted, with the kind of false propaganda that has being infilterated into the american minds...making them hate innocent people around the world.

folks...its time to wake up to the facts..not get your mind washed up on propaganda. our media 24/7 is falsifying the facts and making us believe in commiting mass-murder in the name of jewish protection.

to make it a point i'm no muslim, i'm a christian but does anything justifies the killing of thousands of innocent children and pregnant women anywhere in the world.

american's are very powerful, if you guys do not act with a right mind and just act on false propaganda ..we might be closer to the third world war...

arise, awake america...unless its too late !!

Occam
07-21-06, 06:54
Translated into, "The Zionist Organization of America" hahahaha :D

Do I need to write more. Seems like Mr. Occam is a life long member of this organisation Maybe you'd like to share with us how you determined this, since I have no relation to this organization whatsoever.


this organisation hell bent on brain-washing Innocent and Ignorent American minds.Clearly you believe that hanging the description Jew or Zionist on anything is sufficient to "prove" it represents a sinister conspiracy. I don't care about your religious beliefs, but you sure do sound like the mullahs in Tehran.

Now that you're finished hyperventilating about your groundbreaking discovery of Jews on the internet (or maybe you'd prefer "dirty Jews"), how about dealing with the facts. Got anything to say about Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini's resume?

You gotta love a guy who calls other people ignorent - and misspells “ignorant”.

Starchild2012
07-22-06, 09:29
The article you mentioned was not written by a "Credible Historian"..But was simply the handiwork of some craft minds..Intended on spreading there own agenda.

well..to make things equal...here is my propaganda :D


July 21, 2006

Ghost in the Machine
by John Mackenzie


Reflexive Interventionism, senseless intrusion in wars that are not America’s concern has been the hallmark of post Breton Woods Foreign policy. They may have been presented as well intentioned and appeared as such, but were purely in the interest of Plutocratic hegemony.

A "virtuous nation" or so we are repeatedly informed: rich, powerful, god faring and above all else... we are good.

The "Axis of evil" is bad. This is our ever present policy, a "War on Terror."

The Axis apparently stumbled upon the Declaration of our Independence and went ballistic.

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

We are not hated for our principles; the "bad" people of the world hate us for our actions.

Unfortunately, we have not held true to these principles. We are instead behaving as though we are unilaterally entitled to impose our noble motives upon others whom disagree with our neo-imperialistic motivations.

If you walk upon scorpions, you are going to be stung.

America was the shimmering light, the beacon of hope, a defender of the oppressed. That image, one we earned for ourselves upon ourselves, has dissolved. People of many nations presently view the United States as an oppressive and arrogant empire; one which spreads its cultural hedonism with intemperance, propping up dictatorships in order to flaunt its power.

"the champion and vindicator only of her own." wrote John Quincy Adams.

Are Oil and Israel so vital we should risk our own peace and liberty, are there not alternatives? We have given Israel $120 Billion Dollars in US Aid and Military Armaments over the last 33 years; they posses north of 200 Ballistic Missiles, capable of rendering the Mid East uninhabitable for millennia. Israel looks after Israel first and foremost.

We are quite capable of the doing precisely the same.

Creeping annexation of lands in Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem is the root cause of modern hatreds towards the "good" in a corner of the world rich in Oil. Today, Congress provided absolution for its continuance, the hubris is obvious. We are "good."

Israel is not hated for its principles, but its actions.

We are hated for supporting them. Foreign policy no longer protects our freedom, our citizens and our honor.

Thomas Jefferson wrote: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations... entangling alliances with none."

Our founding fathers have been disgraced once again:

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

The strength of Islam lay within the moral realm. The path fostered through transgressions of the material realm will be America’s greatest obstacle. Polar opposites, destined for a clash should we continue upon our present path of self-indulgent, milquetoast hypocrisy... self determination should be allowed its destiny.

Our nation should revert back to one of preservation and liberty. Equivalent justice, honest money... the unimpeded pursuit of property and happiness are assured. The fate of every other nation before who chose the material course over morality, imperialism over their republic...

It did not end well.

Hegemonic dominance cannot be sustained, empires rise and fall. Ours may end up the quickest round trip in history.

Occam
07-22-06, 18:33
I've been trying to keep all this brief since it's generally so far off topic.

Now that you have brought someone else in to do your thinking and talking for you I'm afraid I may be forced to be as long winded as you. I'll be taking this in pieces.

At least you're honest enough this time to identify it as propaganda.

Occam
07-25-06, 03:59
The article you mentioned was not written by a "Credible Historian"..But was simply the handiwork of some craft minds I got involved in this because of historical distortions in your original posting. I tried to educate you to the necessity of basing your pronouncements on facts. I even provided you with some examples of what a fact looks like. Unfortunately, some people simply cannot be trained. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t recognize a "Credible Historian" if one bit you in the ass.

This latest posting is consistent with the rest of your rambling. Short on facts, long on hyperbole. Disconnected, vague assertions, with a couple of new distortions thrown in. Pretentious language, basically incoherent. I can see why it appeals to you.

The general drift is pretty predictable. America - bad. America’s enemies - justified. Israel - the root of all evil. Intangible conspiracies to tie it all together. The usual stuff. Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, or rather Mr. Mackenzie’s opinion.

My favorite passage:

The strength of Islam lay within the moral realm. The path fostered through transgressions of the material realm will be America’s greatest obstacle. Polar opposites, destined for a clash should we continue upon our present path of self-indulgent, milquetoast hypocrisy... self determination should be allowed its destiny.I’d comment on it, but I haven’t got a clue what it means.

You have had plenty of opportunity to support your version of history, or repudiate mine. You haven’t even attempted to do either, instead producing nonsense like this. I am going to interpret this as your acknowledgment that your statements were deliberate lies, or else, maybe you’re just a garden variety fool.

I think I’m going to quit wasting my time responding to you, at least until your next example of racist disinformation

George90
07-25-06, 15:02
I got involved in this because of historical distortions in your original posting. I tried to educate you to the necessity of basing your pronouncements on facts. I even provided you with some examples of what a fact looks like. Unfortunately, some people simply cannot be trained.

The general drift is pretty predictable. America - bad. America’s enemies - justified. Israel - the root of all evil. Intangible conspiracies to tie it all together. The usual stuff. Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, or rather Mr. Mackenzie’s opinion.


Occam, your level of participation and emotional committent to this thread makes you as bad as you claim Born Loser to be.

There is a saying that just a man is paranoid, it doesn't mean there is no one out to get him. By definition conspiracies are intangible, they are agreements to collude BEFORE an overt act is committed. It so happens that the conspiracy between the US and Israel is an acknowledged one by both the US and Israel. The governments of both countries have publicly stated repeatedly that they share the common goals of defeating terrorism and promoting democracy.

It so happens that 'terrorism' now means opposing Israel on any measure and criticising Israel is now called 'anti-semitism'. While 'democracy' now means electing the government that the US and Israel approve of.

Occam
07-25-06, 20:26
occam, your level of participation and emotional committent to this thread makes you as bad as you claim born loser to be.my “level of participation” consists entirely of responses to other people’s postings. with the exception of the first, all were directed at me personally, just as your’s is once again. as i stated at the end of my last post, i had hoped to bring it to an end. evidently, you don’t want that.


it so happens that the conspiracy between the us and israel is an acknowledged one by both the us and israel. the governments of both countries have publicly stated repeatedly that they share the common goals of defeating terrorism and promoting democracy.defeating terrorism and promoting democracy. interesting you’d describe that as a conspiracy. they’ve probably both agreed that israel should be allowed to continue to exist too, despite the policies of their neighbors. there’s just no limit to the heinousness of this conspiracy.
it so happens that 'terrorism' now means opposing israel on any measure and criticising israel is now called 'anti-semitism'. while 'democracy' now means electing the government that the us and israel approve of.well, you’re entitled to your opinion. here’s how i’d describe terrorism:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3613953.stm
“more than one million people have fled sudan's darfur region, the victims of what un officials have described as an "ethnic cleansing" campaign by a group of arab militiamen.

many thousands have been killed and human rights groups say there has been a systematic campaign of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), intended to humiliate and punish non-arab groups.

the janjaweed have attacked black africans from the fur, massaleet and zagawa ethnic groups report aid agencies and the refugees themselves. they have killed, raped, maimed, looted and burned down tens of thousands of village homes, displacing hundreds of thousands of people.

correspondents say that many of the men fighting with the janjaweed received military training in libya in the 1980s, when muammar gaddafi set up an "islamic legion" of mercenaries recruited from across north and west africa.

human rights campaigners say the janjaweed militia were armed and recruited by the sudan government.”
.....
any time you or loser want to generate some moral outrage, and direct it at anyone who isn’t israel or the us, just jump right in. maybe then i’ll be impressed by what you consider terrorism. or how to recognize anti-semitism.

Evil Penivel
08-26-06, 22:21
I just wish I could meet some of these guys on the streets of New York. I can promise you a very interesting discussion would ensue.

I monitor most of the anti-Israel and anti-U.S. demonstrations in NYC, but I've never seen anything quite at this level. The chanting of "Izbah Al-Yahud" ("Slaughter the Jews") is heard at virtually every demonstration because they think Americans don't understand, but nothing more vicious on a placard than "Crush Israel.

I heard the U.K. taxpayers have forked out nearly one million pounds to pay for police protection of the Finsbury Park crowd (the guy is hanging out of the window of the mosque). Here's an interesting interview with their current leader (the founder of mosque, Abu Hamza, is doing seven years in the can for inciting murder and racial hatred. Pay particular attention to his answer to the question, "Do you consider yourself first a Muslim, or do you consider yourself an Englishman and then a Muslim?" His take on jihad in the religion of peace is also very revealing.

Abu Abdullah (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/abdullah.html)

Got a feeling those tax pounds could have better been used on the elderly and disabled of London.

Evil

StudioCat
08-27-06, 01:07
An English musician friend has sent a number of similar photos to me. As a New Yorker I hope when the last stand happens the Islamic invasion commences with their forces crossing the GWB. It will be over in five seconds to our benefit!

Rock Dog
09-24-06, 02:59
Hey there guys,

I viewed those pics from Evil Penivel's recent post. Not really shocking, because most of us know how bad these radical islamic fuckers are.... but why doesn't this get more airtime in the media?

This is the way things are going: Someone in the west (like the Pope for instance) says something about how violent and intiolerant the muslims are and guess what? They react with violence and intolerance.... dancing aroung screaming for bloody vengeance. What happens? We get all flustered and make apologies hoping to settle them down.

Guess what? Every time we do that it only encourages them while reinforcing their opinion that we are weak because we did apologize. We let them come swarming into Europe and North America where they breed like rats and build new mosques every chance they get. Meanwhile they have laws in their own countries forbidding any other religion but Islam.

We need to quit acting like pussies. Next time one of these fuckers issues some decree saying that so and so should die for whatever they said.... we should send a hit squad and have HIM whacked! Lets send infiltrators into evry mosque and bug them and spy on them..... and the next time any of them say death to America or whoever... have their ass deported back to whatever shitty little country they came from. ( after some extensive "interrogation", of course)

My prediction is that things are going to go one of two ways. One, We will keep getting weaker and they will eventually attack us once they get some nukes.... even if it takes them 50 years, they're gonna keep trying. Or two, we will reach a breaking point and people will overcome this politically correct, let's love-everyone-and-be-friends bullshit. The result? We'll have our areas, and they'll have theirs. As in, you do what you like in our land, and we'll do things our way in our country and God help you if you ever try fuck with us again. In fact, there may be a future European Hitler who will rise to power by promising to save Christianity by driving the muslims out of Europe. Think ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.

Sounds like a crappy future? Let's wait and see how it goes.

Rock

Hardbarg
10-09-06, 05:12
Isn't this exactly the place to comment on Congressmen, sex scandals, and hypocrisy.

MJG Dogs
10-09-06, 06:41
Rock makes a lot of good points, Now it is worse that the little midget fucker in North Korea has a nuke. he is crazier than Iran and that half-breed fuck down in caracas.

We screwed up also, for we did not rearm Japan. Japan will now get into the game and based on old history- there will be a cold war bewteen Japan and North Korea. Japan is the real target of Kim Jong IL. We all know that he can invade South Korea with his 1.2 million army.

I am sure Chavez will open his big mouth and applaud North Korea. Chavez is really enemy # 1, my reasons:

1. he is closer than anyone else
2> he is funneling a lot of money into Nicaragua and will form an alliance with ortega.
3. He has hezbollah and hamas training in venezuela
4. He wants to attack Colombia, Colombia is our most important alley in south america.
5. He is fucking nuts

we need to assinate him pronto....... To god damm bad democrats.....

Bart9000
10-10-06, 02:57
Now I have been trying to stay out of flame wars, and I will be abstaining if one develops out of this.......they are WAY too time consuming. However, I have to point something out.

Pretend for a moment that you are the government of a country that has been identified as an enemy of the most powerful military force on the planet. Bad situation already right?

Then imagine that that militarily powerful country has a leader that has publicly acknowledged that he has daily interactive conversations with a divine being.

That leader took power through a judiciary appointment from a supreme court mostly appointed by his father (I believe this is correct-I know there were some concerns about the timing of the retirement of some conservative justices). Despite MASSIVE obvious incompetence and corruption, he retains power in a semi (save possibly for Diebold voting machines) legitimate election.

Furthermore, imagine that leader is widely known to belong to a group of and is unduly influenced by religious extremists who against all reason believe that the Earth is only 6000 years old and that the "End of Days" is near (do the words "Self-fullfilling prophecy mean anything?")

Also, that same leader for no good reason other than enriching his friends in the oil and military-industrial sector, decided to invade and occupy a sovergn nation (I don't want to hear any crap about how "Saddam is a scumbag".....yes he is, but there are lots of others, including as I understand it the President of Khazistan, who dubya had dinner with last week.)

Now if you were say Iran or North Korea, an identified enemy of the US, wouldn't you be a little nervous about your soveirgnty (sp) and security in the face of this behavior? Don't get the idea that I am crazy about them getting nukes, but could you see where they might come to believe that they need the capacity to resort to extreme measures to protect themselves?

Before someone goes screaming about my take on things, remember something "Perception is reality". I hold this perception as a leftist US citizen. What perception do you think that the rulers of Iran and North Korea have?


B9k

Hardbarg
11-14-06, 07:25
Please respond on AP board-I'll watch for it

So I'm paranoid?

In the last 5 years, the bush administration has:

Obtained the ability to spy on US citizens on US soil.

Obtained the ability to detain as I understand it, anyone classified at the discretion of the bush administration as a "bad person" (I may be overly broad in this characterization, but the spirit remains), and subject them to indefinite detention without benefit of judicial review.

Maintained a policy of labeling anyone who disagrees with their policies as "treasonous" and "a traitor", "emboldening the enemy"....etc.

Shown no indication of slowing or curtailing the continued acquisition of executive power under the auspices of the "war on terror".

Now you may disagree with this, but I don't see where it takes much of a stretch to see where this path is leading........towards "dissidents" (and actually maybe even nonconformists to theocratic hegemony) getting their doors kicked in and disappearing into the night.

Now a lot of people would not want to live in a country like this....hence the result of closed borders to prevent a mass exodus.

Also, why do you assume that Nancy Pelosi is incompetent? Because she is female. I hope not....that would pretty much qualify you towards the mysoginy that the AW board occassionally gets accused of. Otherwise, it would be because her political beliefs (including feminism, which I also disagree with) do not agree with yours. As I stated (using Bob Dole as an example), one does not need to be in political agreement with another to be a competent leader.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I am of the understand it, the "Speaker" position is one that is elected, by other party members. The ability to get elected politically ot an office, is usually (exceptions exist, such as having your father's supreme court put you into the office, or deceptively utilize a historically unprescedented level of fear mongering to manipulate the public) pretty good tool for determining competence. In order to obtain the Speakership, Representative Pelosi had to convince a majority of a group of people who range from extremely liberal urban black women to "good ol boy" redneck southerners who are pretty much republicans, that she was most qualified to lead the party.

Doesn't that sound a lot the skill set that one would need to say help mediate a peace process between two middle eastern warring factions (pick your poision-Kurds, Shiites, Sunni's Palestinians......) engaged in a dispute?
B9k
“So I'm paranoid?” Yep.

“I don't see where it takes much of a stretch to see where this path is leading........towards "dissidents" (and actually maybe even nonconformists to theocratic hegemony) getting their doors kicked in and disappearing into the night.”

That one alone pretty much rings the bell.

In addition, it’s pretty clear you’re also very angry. I’d say hopping mad. My guess is it started on that day in 2000 when Bush and the Republicans “stole” the election. You need to consider the possibility that your attitudes are a bit colored by your anger.

“why do you assume that Nancy Pelosi is incompetent? Because she is female. I hope not....that would pretty much qualify you towards the mysoginy that the AW board occassionally gets accused of.”

My distrust of Ms. Pelosi’s politics does not imply that I hate all women, or even that I hate Ms. Pelosi. I think the word you’re looking for is “sexist”. Either way it’s pretty funny coming from you.


do you want an easy comfortable life as an upper middle class suburban hausfrau? Then keep the house clean, wrangle the kids (and I'm sick of hearing shit about how they are a "full time job", from women who spend their days watching Oprah, getting their hair done, and drinking coffee at Starbucks), don't turn into a porcine, short haired sex depriving for all practical purposes lesbian.
Now that’s sexist, some might even say misogynist.

For that matter, I never said she was incompetent, though I don’t think she’s up to the task of dealing effectively with the guys who have sworn to kill us. I have no doubt Ms. Pelosi is extremely competent in steering government policy in the direction of the “empowerment of women” and in furthering the stock left of center Democratic principals such as tax and spend. I just don’t think that’s particularly good news.

The question is, why do you think she is? You argue that getting elected is an indicator of competence. If one were to accept that premise (I don’t), it would of course apply equally to (for example) George Bush. Your anger doesn’t give you the right to dictate exceptions. You ought to take a look at Ms. Pelosi’s district. San Francisco isn’t exactly mainstream America. It is a good place to be a radical feminista if you want to win elections. To become Speaker of the House she only needs the support of the most partisan half of the Democratic representatives to Congress. A thoroughly insular position.

Sorry, the question remains. You’re the one cheerleading for her. What makes you think she’s qualified to weald this kind of power wisely?

Bart9000
11-14-06, 12:39
“So I'm paranoid?” Yep.

“I don't see where it takes much of a stretch to see where this path is

leading........towards "dissidents" (and actually maybe even nonconformists to theocratic

hegemony) getting their doors kicked in and disappearing into the night.”

That one alone pretty much rings the bell.
____________________________________________________________________________________________




This is an ad hominem attack, which is a classic logical fallacy. You have instead of

explaining why my assertions are incorrect, chosen instead to characterize me as suffering

from a mental disorder. Try again.









In addition, it’s pretty clear you’re also very angry. I’d say hopping mad. My guess is it

started on that day in 2000 when Bush and the Republicans “stole” the election. You need to

consider the possibility that your attitudes are a bit colored by your anger.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
Yea, I am angry and have been very much so for several years. Having an emotional response

does not invalidate my position.









“why do you assume that Nancy Pelosi is incompetent? Because she is female. I hope

not....that would pretty much qualify you towards the mysoginy that the AW board

occassionally gets accused of.”

My distrust of Ms. Pelosi’s politics does not imply that I hate all women, or even that I

hate Ms. Pelosi. I think the word you’re looking for is “sexist”. Either way it’s pretty

funny coming from you.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't doubt that she may support and advocate legislation (although it has been

conjectured that in order to remain in power, Democrats need to stay away from the social

issues which can serve to galvanize the right wing idiots against the Democratic Party). My

point was that having her in a position to shut down the idiocy of the bush administration

and the scenario I described (which you have failed to effectively refute as you answered my

case with a logical fallacy) by far outweighs any damage that she may do to American male

interests.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart9000
do you want an easy comfortable life as an upper middle class suburban hausfrau? Then keep

the house clean, wrangle the kids (and I'm sick of hearing shit about how they are a "full

time job", from women who spend their days watching Oprah, getting their hair done, and

drinking coffee at Starbucks), don't turn into a porcine, short haired sex depriving for all

practical purposes lesbian.

Now that’s sexist, some might even say misogynist.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, some might. However, that is my perception-this is an OPINION board after all. And

while I might be accused of stereotyping (certainly there are exceptions), not much more

than a mid afternoon trip to Starbucks in any state of the union can demonstrate a pretty

healthy degree of validity to it(compounded with a night at any gathering of married men,

hearing them complain about not "gettin any"). My personal belief is that women as a gender

are not intrinxically inferior to men in any area except for upper body strength. Problems

arise however because our CULTURE encourages andd incentivises women to "have their cake and

eat it", belive that they are morally and intellectually superior to men, be greedy and

materialistic......










For that matter, I never said she was incompetent, though I don’t think she’s up to the task

of dealing effectively with the guys who have sworn to kill us. I have no doubt Ms. Pelosi

is extremely competent in steering government policy in the direction of the “empowerment of

women” and in furthering the stock left of center Democratic principals such as tax and

spend. I just don’t think that’s particularly good news.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

First of all, "tax and spend" is right wing propaganda. The debt and deficit shrank quite

considerably the last time there was a Democrat in the white house...... Only to be blown to

historically unprescedented levels under "the current occupant", which has in addition to

laying a huge debt (and future heavy taxation to eventually pay for it) on the US, has

devalued the US dollar, making things incrementally more difficult for those of us who wish

to live abroad. Ask Darkseid about that....he was happily living in pussy heaven off the

interest on his 401K.....until said interest began to only buy half as many Brazilian

reals.......boy that was a real plus for those of us prone to vote with our feet and not

accept AW crap.

On one hand you are saying that you are not calling her incompentent. On the other, you are

saying that she lacks the ability to deal with something that will be an integral part of

her new position. Would you care to produce a definition of "incompetent" that isn't more

or less ""unable to perform an integral part of a given function"?

Perhaps you believe that she lacks the INCLINATION to effectively handle the nation's

problems.....I'm sure that she will throw away her parties "golden ticket" to (possibly multi-generational as the right wing has blown it so badly) power so that

she can make ramrodding through some bullshit feminist legislation her top priority.








The question is, why do you think she is? You argue that getting elected is an indicator of

competence. If one were to accept that premise (I don’t), it would of course apply equally

to (for example) George Bush. Your anger doesn’t give you the right to dictate exceptions.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

My anger has nothing to do with it. Two elections for reasons cited failed to prevent a highly incompetent and corrupt administration (I don't think it's necessary to produce the laundry list) from taking and retaining power. That failure clearly indicates that exceptions do exist to my generalization that elections are usually a pretty good tool for picking politicians.










You ought to take a look at Ms. Pelosi’s district. San Francisco isn’t exactly mainstream

America. It is a good place to be a radical feminista if you want to win elections. To

become Speaker of the House she only needs the support of the most partisan half of the

Democratic representatives to Congress. A thoroughly insular position.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

I characterized the democratic party, a large group of people from (by definition) from widely ranging backgrounds, regional cultures and geographic areas as being very different from each other.

You seem to be characterizing that group as binarily homogenous.

Which one of those characterizations would you say is more accurate. As an illustration, lets do basically the same thing to the Republican party and say that it is composed entirely of wealthy corporate executives and bible freaks. Would you call that an accurate characterization?







Sorry, the question remains. You’re the one cheerleading for her. What makes you think she’s

qualified to weald this kind of power wisely?
____________________________________________________________________________________________
I'm cheerleading her because she, in conjunction with several other individuals put the democratic party into a position to force accountability and control onto the bush administration and their disastrous policies (again, don't think we need the laundry list), which has previously had free reign which has been mostly used to transfer the wealth of the US treasury and American people into the hands of their friends and benefactors, much to our, and the rest of the world's (except that they can shop cheaply here now) detriment.

In response to your final question, I have to again ask why (aside from being female, feminist, and liberal) do you assume that she isn't competent? In truth, all suspicions aside, I don't KNOW that she is, although she MAY be. Conversely, I do definatively KNOW that the bush administration ISN'T. At the very least, doesn't it make it make sense to replace KNOWN malignancy with possible benevolance?


B9k

Hardbarg
11-15-06, 04:15
Wow, how the hell did you manage to post such an unreadable mess? Clean it up, then I'll look at it.

Bart9000
11-15-06, 04:38
Would be a rationalization.

My comments are seperated from yours by a line, and there is space between each "set"

B9k

Hardbarg
11-15-06, 04:44
Deal with the spacing, wrap around lines and white space. Try a text editor.

Bart9000
11-15-06, 05:17
You don't like that it's double spaced?

Sorry, man, I'm not a secretary.

I'll give you a clue about reading it:

Go from left to right. When you come to the end of the line, move south to the next one. Repeat the process. until you run into "B9k" at the end.

I believe it's appearent that you don't have a valid counterargument (and do credit your intelligence and education that you don't engage in a very typical tactic of throwing up a "bunch of words" and stonewalling that they are valid and relevant), and are using my failure to live up to your standards of visual aesthetics as an "out" (more frequently used but in the same vein are tactics such as criticizing spelling and grammar, and making claims like "It isn't worth my time to debate someone who can't spell 'Seattle'". If that's what you want to do, that's fine. I won't engage in mockery, taunting, or anything of that nature.

B9k

Hardbarg
11-15-06, 07:25
This is what your post looks like. It's bad enough trying to clean up your sloppy thinking, I don't have to deal with your sloppy presentation. I'm not your keyboarding teacher.

Show respect for your readers or go somewhere else.

Bart9000
11-15-06, 07:55
Here I try to be reasonably civilized, and you come back acting like an ass.

You aren't fooling anybody. You can't argue with me, so you turn into the formatting Nazi.

That's a really effective debating tactic (I call it the "pathetic smokescreen") you have there. Next stop for you LAW SCHOOL. Maybe YOU should run for congress You could stand around and criticize the wardrobes of people who are actually able to think with logic and reason, as they deliberate about potential changes to the law. Maybe even their grammar too.

B9k

MJG Dogs
11-15-06, 08:41
You guys don't get it.

This guy in Iran is serious about wiping out Israel and neutering the US. He is living in the 7th century.

Europe has turned into a continent full of poodles and are afraid to confront radical Islam, except for surprisingly the Dutch. However one in three dutchmen ( native) wants to leave Europe. Europe did it to themselves. The Us needs to get its bases out of europe anyway, let them fend for themselves. Bow- wow.

Bickering about Pelosi, Bush, the 2000 elections etcc. is not imporatnt now.

Question should be what to do about Iran? It is really the US and Israel whom can stop iran. Blair surrendered yesterday. I guess it is up to the Isreali's to take out the nuke plants in Iran, since I am not sure Dumbo has the stomach to do anything, nor am I sure about the american people. We are bogged down in Iraq. Iraq is what it is. maybe parecel it into three zones, anyway it is a mess.

Did get a chuckle at one of the Poodle's indicting Rumsfeld today. They are really something else. Europe yearns to bask in the sun as the world leader again. Fat chance

Hardbarg
11-15-06, 10:21
MJG Dogs:
Some of us get it. You're absolutely right. But, there's a whole bunch of people in the US who've convinced themselves that Bush is the greatest threat to mankind since Attila, and more dangerous than anyone in Iran, or Pakistan or anywhere else put together. They can't see anything else while they're wrapped up in their tight, self-reinforced little paranoid cocoons. I just got sucked into wasting time debating trivialities with one of them.

bart:
Somehow you manage to produce readable copy when you want to. Could it be you make a mess when you know what you've got to say is more nonsense than usual. Clean it up and we can all find out.

Bart9000
11-15-06, 16:04
Rationalize, and run away. Bluster and grandstand. You hit every tactic in the loudmouth idiots playbook. I've seen plenty like you around. None can put together a rational argument and defend it with facts and reason.

What are you going to do if I "clean up" my copy? I know that you don't have a leg to stand on. Will you then complain that you are being blinded by the light blue borders, and therefore can't respond.

B9k

Doctor_Skank
11-15-06, 16:30
Hard to believe that anyone has a single good thing to say about Bush, the single greatest American disaster in recent history. Recovering from him will take a decade... if things go well.

Iran a threat? Damn right! And even more so since the Bush era began, sapping our economy, military, international support and morale of needed strength with his misguided, childish war of terrir'.

I am as hawkish as they come when it comes to defending America's borders BEYOND our borders.. especially in this age of terrorism... but for God's sake, let's be clever about it and not clumsy and oafish as we have been under Bush.

Digital Curry
11-15-06, 20:59
Even the neocons are against Bush. Perle, one of the architects behind iraq, said Bush ruined the war with incompetence and corruption.

I'm beginning to understand the Neocons. Even if you think its in our benefit to have oil wars, Bush ruined it.

"Nancy Pelosi is incompetent?"

Is that what you think this election was about? Nancy Pelosi?

Whether you are democrat, republican, or independant, doesn't matter.
This election was about creating oversight over president who is
out-of-control, immature, sociopath leading us into totalitarianism
and I am simple amazed the election wasn't (more) stolen.

Digital Curry
11-15-06, 21:08
Hard to believe that anyone has a single good thing to say about Bush, the single greatest American disaster in recent history. Recovering from him will take a decade... if things go well.

Things won't go that well. The worst thing Bush did was not 5 trillion dollars debt, or ruinous war, or recruit a billiion sympathizer for the terrorists, or torture.

The worst thing bush did was to create a Culture of Dictatorship in the US government. USA's greatest gift was a government culture that encouraged cooperation, friendship and discussion.

Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Rove ruined the governmental culture, moved us towards fascism and a Culture of Dictatorship.

Hardbarg
11-15-06, 22:57
Rationalize, and run away. Bluster and grandstand. You hit every tactic in the loudmouth idiots playbook. I've seen plenty like you around. None can put together a rational argument and defend it with facts and reason.
Everything you say here applies equally to you, I've just been trying to avoid all the name calling. Childish.


What are you going to do if I "clean up" my copy?
B9k
Read it.

Bart9000
11-16-06, 02:14
I forgot one from the loudmouth idiot playbook. "Oh no, I'm not those things, YOU ARE"!!!!! Someone, sometime told you morons that the best way to get over on an accusation is to accuse your accuser of actually engaging in it themselves....or publicly decry exactly what it is that you do....for example "The No-Spin Zone", where nothing but spinning takes place.



Basically it's the "grown up" equivalent of "I know you are but what am I".


Like I said. You want to read my stuff? Go from left to right, and when you get to the end of a line go down one and repeat the process. I'm not going to bother "making it pretty" because I know that this is just a bullshit pretense to keep from admitting that you don't have a rational argument to counter mine. You can spit venom and call me names all day long, but that doesn't change the situation.
B9k

Hardbarg
11-16-06, 04:00
"I'm childinsh?" I rest my case.

Bart9000
11-16-06, 04:22
........a question mark on the end of that statement. This would make it a question, not a statement. No wonder you don't seem to be able to read my material, as you appear not to have good command of the basics.

Keep it up. Every bit of venom that you spit out reads to me as "I'm trying to cover up the fact that I can't defend my positions with a valid argument."

B9k

Hardbarg
11-16-06, 04:57
You really are totally clueless aren't you? That explains a lot. I give up. What's "childinsh"?

Bart9000
11-16-06, 05:13
It's a fucking typo. What's "weald"? Did I throw a fucking hissy over your inability to spell "wield"? Why not....because I'm not looking for pissy little bullshit to complain about so that I can put off showing that I can't generate a valid counterargument.

You conversely complain about typo's, formatting, bile, venom.....everything BUT a relevant valid response.

So tell me, do you actually lie to yourself that this is the reason you can't come up with a valid response to my points, or is it only to other people?

B9k

Hardbarg
11-16-06, 12:41
It’s clearly necessary to explain to you what is obvious to anyone else, so let me help you out here. When you try to demonstrate you’re not childish, and misspell the word while doing it, that’s pretty damned funny. Even you have to admit that’s a childlike mistake - though I doubt you’re capable of that much introspection.

When the error is pointed out to you, and you respond with another little hissy fit (I like that one) that demonstrates you are completely oblivious, both to the mistake and the irony of your cluelessness, that’s off the charts hilarious.

But when you say to the guy who found your spelling error, the mistake you still haven’t picked up on,“you appear not to have good command of the basics”, well that’s just fucking priceless.

I told you before about being sloppy. Adding clown to the resume doesn’t help. If you’re going to continue with the insults and the personal attacks, you really need to clean up your act.

I sure hope I can keep you going. You are an endless source of amusement.

Hardbarg
11-16-06, 13:00
Oh yeah - weald is a homonym. Sometimes they creep in.

Bart9000
11-16-06, 14:58
....to anyone reading this that this individual is making a grandstanding pretense about offending his typographical and formatting sensibilities so as to avoid demonstrating that he lacks the ability to generate a logical valid counterargument to mine below?

I made a logical case that we in the United States had been headed towards (possibly theocratic) facism with "dissidents" disappearing into the night, and possibly closed borders. His only response was to call me "paranoid", which is an ad hominem attack, a classic logical fallacy, basically attacking the arguer instead of the argument......he then "made his (kneejerk, reactionary) case" based on having successfully refuted my assertions

I believe that if he had a logical counterargument, we would not be quibbling about my keystroke error in slipping an "n" into "childish" if he had anywhere else to go in the argument. Instead of being a man and admitting that his positions were in error, we get the grammar and formatting nazi.

B9k

MJG Dogs
11-16-06, 18:24
Some of your don't get it.

You Complain about International goodwill and torture.
You Complain about facism and "The Culture of Dictatorship"

You all have the right to dissent. I agree that Bush totally fucked up in Iraq, as regard to strategy, and by announcing to Iraq, when we were coming. Where there WMD? maybe, if so where are they ? Syria, Iran maybe. Why telegraph your intentions and then have no after strategy and no timetable for reconstruction etc.... NEXT

International Goodwill: Vastly Over-Rated. The Europeans have always tried to undermine any American President whom protects Americans first. They still have a perception that we are still a colony of thiers. The Europeans meddling in our 2004 elections, stank of arrogance and pettiness. Who in the fuck are they to dictate to the american electorate. Besides look at the French, prostitutes whom will sell anything to anyone. The Spainish, who sold Hugo Chavez, Chemical and Biological agents ( documented), and that prepetual Rats Nest the EU. Europe has never been a true alley of the USA, only when it suits them. Remember the left in europe claimed that Reagan was going to blow up the World etc... Now look at Europe a dying continent being over run by Islamo-Ding-A-Ling.

Torture- Oh my God someone put a dog collar on a prisoner, put a hood on a prisoner,and piled some naked guys into a pile, Ok stupid yes, but torture???
Should the soldiers been punished for this-Yes, but god some of you don't get it- the prisoners at club-gitmo eat better than anyone in any US prison. I see a lot of portly Muslims in the pictures.

Are you people out of your minds. Torture- Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Pol-Pot, and you equate Abu-Grab and Gitmo with torture? jesus if that is the case you are turing European in this country. Might as well blare the Village people over the loudspeakers in every major city. Is the under-belly of this country now that soft?


Dictatorship- I guess that means domestic wiretapping and the Patriot act.Hmmm one of the greatest icon in Democratic party history, spied on thousands of americans, and intured a whole race of americans in prsion camps during World War 2. Roosevelt suspended more rights than Bush ever imagened too. Dictatorship means no more free elctions, it looks like tha American public voted for a change in dictatorship USA last 10 days ago.

If you guys want to become another Europe, then we have major major problems. Sorry bart, why you have some valid points, you fear about having a Closed Border, Puzzles me. What is wrong with having a fence?

Doctor_Skank
11-16-06, 19:48
MJG Dogs:

There is no such things as "best friends" in world politics, every country is ultimately there to protect its own interests, which is exactly what a country's leadership should do.... protect and represent the interests of the country... not just protecting the interests of the actual leadership running it.

My beef if with the current administration, whose pursuit of their own self-interests is undermining the good of the country to a degree I haven't personally experienced with the last presidents... and I have been following politics actively since Carter.

And don't give me the standard republican "Clinton this Clinton that". Like him or not, he was a good president and improved America's position in the world and the situation for our citizens. We gave him the ball and he didn't fumble. Same with Reagan. I hated him then, but in retrospect he was a good president, despite his inability to speak coherently. Bush is far worse... and has been coughing the ball up right and left.

France, Germany, England, Spain, Italy, Russia whomever are never going to see eye to eye with us on everything, but completely alienating and directly insulting them in a meaningless grandstanding fashion is just [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) poor politics.

I suppose that's my biggest problem with Bushco in general... they are just [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) poor politicians and make us look like fools. International goodwill IS necessary... without it, achieving our goals is much more difficult.

Iraq? We are there now, so worrying about why we got there in the first place is increasingly irrelevant... the spilled milk scenario. We need a better mop.

Torture? The whole Abu Ghraib thing is less significant than most make it out to be... it definitely isn't as much of an issue as the wasteful Guantanamo complex, where prisoners have gained an average of something like 35 pounds each because all they do is eat all day. For many, it must be like heaven without the virgins. A waste of money. Any intelligence we could have gotten out of those guys is no longer valid, al Queda structures have since changed and adapted.

Bart9000
11-17-06, 00:15
I am actually not referring to having a closed border in the sense that you are thinking of.....keeping non-citizens out.

I'm actually referring to the old Soviet style closed border.....keeping citizens (trying to escape from a fascist dictatorship) IN.
This could be a realistic scenario under the trends that were taking place under the unfettered bush administration-it sounds like you saw that post.

B9k

Hardbarg
11-17-06, 01:11
And don't give me the standard republican "Clinton this Clinton that". Like him or not, he was a good president and improved America's position in the world and the situation for our citizens.

Sorry, can't agree with this. 95% of the execution of 9/11 is his responsibility. Our failure to respond effectively to numerous provocations (embassy bombings, the Cole attack) and the catastrophic drift of the intelligence structure were on his watch. We may all have been guilty of complacency, but the President's job is to lead.

How did he improve America's position in the world?

Sinanju Master
11-17-06, 01:37
CARTER may have had something to do with the withering of the intelligence agencies effectiveness in preventing 9/11. During his presidency (if I'm not mistaken) he did away with "removing" (a sanitary word for "icing") credible threats and instead, handled such situations with kid gloves. Also, he began the over-reliance on MACHINE-gathered intelligence instead of time-tested HUMAN intelligence gathering.

Anyone more schooled in such events is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

Bart9000
11-17-06, 05:07
Sorry, can't agree with this. 95% of the execution of 9/11 is his responsibility. Our failure to respond effectively to numerous provocations (embassy bombings, the Cole attack) and the catastrophic drift of the intelligence structure were on his watch. We may all have been guilty of complacency, but the President's job is to lead.

How did he improve America's position in the world?


This is a preposterous assertion, and one that you can, I'm sure, not back up with facts reason and logic. Just like you failed to do in the crap that I shredded below, which you refuse to acknowledge under the ridiculous pretense of not liking my lack of formatting, and are now trying to discretely sneak away from.

By the way, "conservative logic" (I know, an oxymoron)doesn't count. "It is because I say it is.....that's what I say.....because that is what is.....because that is what I say........"

B9k

MJG Dogs
11-17-06, 05:32
I am glad that you see the Abu-Grab situation similar to what I see it. Gitmo also.

did I mention Jesus Christ ( I mean Clinton in my post), No I did not. Clinton was one of smartest presidents , but not necessarly good. I have to agree with hardbag , pertaining to 9/11, he chose not to act after the USS Cole was hit, and did turm down Bin Laden, these are documented. Reagan whom you hated, and whom I loved, also made mistakes, like keeping The US Marines at sea level, not on high ground, in Beirut.

International Diplomacy? Its a two way street, and even after listening to the nonsense from Europe and after reading about the venom directed at american tourists since 2003, in Europe, it will be a very long time before we should mend fences with Europe. They are yearning to be in the spotlight again , they do remind me of poodles. They are smart , can be cute, but usually just shit all over the place.

Bart, How come then millions of people are flocking the the dictatorship of the uNited Sates of america? I do want to leave , not becuase of Bush, but becuase of too many damm people, and too much PC bullshit. I would rather live and take my chances in Colombia or panama. There, there is no PC bullshit, but fuck with someone there and you will be sorry. No friggin ACLU in Colombia

Sinanju Master
11-17-06, 06:04
he chose not to act after the USS Cole was hit That may be so, BUT he rained down a lot of physical brimstone on Afghanistan in the form of Cruise missiles after Tanzania (which was earlier than the Cole). IF the embassies in Pakistan and other neighboring countries weren't evacuated on a moment's notice BEFORE the retaliation for the African embassy bombings, Bin Laden's remains would have decorated the Afghan countryside. The evacuations were a HUGE (unintentional) tip-off that a LARGE foot was destined to be lodged in Afghanistan's ass. As a result, Bin Laden high-tailed it outta there faster than a crooked politician trying to avoid a "60 Minutes" van rolling up to his driveway.

Bart9000
11-17-06, 06:21
bart, how come then millions of people are flocking the the dictatorship of the united sates of america? i do want to leave , not becuase of bush, but becuase of too many damm people, and too much pc bullshit. i would rather live and take my chances in colombia or panama. there, there is no pc bullshit, but fuck with someone there and you will be sorry. no friggin aclu in colombia


i did not assert that at the present time, we are a facist dictatorship. what i did assert in a logical case 5-6 posts back was that we were trending (caps for emphasis, not yelling) in that direction (with no indication that the trend would be slowing) under the bush administration's continued acquisition of executive power.

i'm also no fan of pc bullshit. however, i understand it to some degree. i understand that my positions may appear to be contradictory (eg douchebag's attempt to label me a hypocrite over my post criticizing the behavior of women in the us), but this is simply a reflection of my understanding of the complexity of the world, and other people having perceptions that while -different-from my own, are not "wrong".

take sexual harassment for example. about 11 years ago, a little bim tried to get me fired (she got caught flirting with me, and told her husband she would get rid of me, or he would make her quit the job). i think that it is absolutely ridiculous that i had to endure a 2 hour grilling with hr, being humiliated at having my friends called in as witnesses, and was eventually completely exonerated.....although i still received punishment (hey, i thought i was found innocent) in the form of a condition that i would be fired without any question if there was even a complaint on me.

this was wrong, and a bunch of bullshit.

conversely, there are situations going on right now where women (and actually men too....it goes both ways) are in a position of possibly losing their jobs, not getting an earned promotion or raise, or maybe just literally getting chased around their desk by a supervisor.

this is also wrong and a bunch of bullshit.

the situation (and there are many other issues like this)is complex, and doesn't lend to a simplistic solution on either side. yes, men shouldn't be subject to prosecution at the drop of a woman's word......on the other hand, women should be able to go about their daily business without having to deal with for example a boss holding an earned promotion hostage over some pussy......or even excessive (in frequency and degree) attempts by those who are peers.

b9k

Dodger Bulldog
11-17-06, 07:29
i am a liberal and i am a feminist, as it is very important to me that my daughters to have equal rights and opportunities in their lives. but i hate all the pc bullshit too!

don't think for a minute this is a conservative vs. liberal issue. it's certainly not.

the fact that i think tort reform is just a scam designed to allow corporations to act with impunity, or that i oppose sending my tax dollars to private schools through school vouchers, does not mean that i support political correctness.

free speech is not a liberal or conservative issue.

the problem with current sexual harassment law based on the supreme court decision is not the ban against "quid pro quo" (if you do this for me, i'll do that for you). most of us would agree that is wrong.

rather, it is the concept of the "hostile working environment."

now i can certainly understand why women would be uncomfortable if they had put up with seeing a nudie calendar at their workplace. that is a reasonable complaint.

however, the "hostile environment" clause goes so far to state that sexual harassment is not caused by the actions of the accused, but rather it is determined by how the supposed victim feels "impacted."

thus, if you do or say something that 99 people out of 100 think is fine, that 100th person can nonetheless legitimately accuse you of sexual harassment under the law.

case in point. recently my secretary agreed to call and make hotel reservations for my next trip to south america, because she is a native spanish speaker. we do each other favors all of the time, and it was no big deal to her.

during the phone call two women wandered in to our office and overhead me telling my secretary that i wanted a double bed, not a single. i also told her that i wanted the package that allows up to four people, so that i did not have to pay an extra fee if i brought any guests over.

the next day one of these buttinski's, who did not even have any business being in the room let alone eavesdropping on our conversation, proceeded to go to my supervisor and complain that i had made her feel uncomfortable and she felt sexually harrassed.

i was not even informed which one had complained about me, in order to "protect her." (i don't think that part was legal.)

but believe it or not, under the law she can correctly claim that she was sexually harassed. hell, i could do something as innocent as swat a fly, and if someone claims to be "impacted" in such a way that she feels sexually harrassed, then by definition, i'm guilty.

i was let off with a verbal warning and told that had i opened myself up to be fired if anyone else complains about me in the future.

and in sex prison, that's the law, folks!

db

Sasha Coffee
11-17-06, 22:07
That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.

You poor guy. Sounds to me like the woman who complained needs a decent shag to bring her back to reality.

Hardbarg
11-18-06, 00:42
This is a preposterous assertion
So, you disagree with me. There's a shock. Just a second.

Yeah - I don't care. Actually, it makes me proud.


trying to discretely sneak away
You just don't get it. You're not worth the effort. Once you get past the profanity, insults, personal attacks, and self-serving bs - "a little bim tried to get me fired (she got caught flirting with me...)" - all that's left is pointless blather. And you DO like to hear yourself talk.

Guys like Dodger are willing to go to the trouble of pointing out and correcting your sloppy thinking. I don't have to.

Jelly Donut
11-18-06, 05:00
CARTER may have had something to do with the withering of the intelligence agencies effectiveness in preventing 9/11.

Anyone more schooled in such events is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.I don't know if I'm "more schooled" in these events - one thing I think is interesting about Carter is the "Carter Doctine" which basically was the first time the US stated in had vital interests in the Persian Gulf and would use military force if those interests were assaulted.

I remember reading an article during the Gulf War in the Wall Street Journal about relationship between the Carter Doctrine and it's impact on the US ability to project force in the Persian Gulf. Basically, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan kicked off an effort toward projecting American force into the Gulf. The first time that ability was tested was when Iraq invaded Kuwait.

So, I guess I see a bit of irony in Carter scoring a peace prize since I think basically there is not a lot of difference between Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or Bush when it comes to US interests in the Persian Gulf.

Bart9000
11-18-06, 08:48
So, you disagree with me. There's a shock. Just a second.

Yeah - I don't care. Actually, it makes me proud.


You just don't get it. You're not worth the effort. Once you get past the profanity, insults, personal attacks, and self-serving bs - "a little bim tried to get me fired (she got caught flirting with me...)" - all that's left is pointless blather. And you DO like to hear yourself talk.

Guys like Dodger are willing to go to the trouble of pointing out and correcting your sloppy thinking. I don't have to.

I want to hear one of three things out of you. Anything else that you post has exactly as much validity as pounding on the keyboard:

oijtpoihpiouh26q26w4625jn25wpokpjop2j5k2k5k54ypok2pokypok

1. A relevant valid response to my points below. You can spew logical fallacies, things you "know" (but can't intellectually justify----those are called "feelings", and they matter for nothing), and insults all day long...they prove noting but your idiocy.

2. You not acting like a fucking pussy, manning up, finding some testicles, and admitting you are wrong.

3. Shut the fuck up and go back to giving Rush Limbaugh a rimjob.

So which one is it going to be?


B9k

Hardbarg
11-18-06, 14:29
I don't know if I'm "more schooled" in these events - one thing I think is interesting about Carter is the "Carter Doctine" which basically was the first time the US stated in had vital interests in the Persian Gulf and would use military force if those interests were assaulted.

I remember reading an article during the Gulf War in the Wall Street Journal about relationship between the Carter Doctrine and it's impact on the US ability to project force in the Persian Gulf. Basically, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan kicked off an effort toward projecting American force into the Gulf. The first time that ability was tested was when Iraq invaded Kuwait.

So, I guess I see a bit of irony in Carter scoring a peace prize since I think basically there is not a lot of difference between Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or Bush when it comes to US interests in the Persian Gulf.
Let's not forget that Carter was responsible for funding and arming the Mujahideen against the Soviets. Some say that support started earlier, and actually caused (provoked) the Soviet invasion. Reagan continued the policy. The Mujahideen, of course, morphed into the Taliban, and somewhat less directly, into Al Qaeda. A classic case of blowback.

The sad fact is that we have been blundering around this part of the world, Republican and Democrat, pretty much whenever we get involved. We better start learning how to be effective.

Digital Curry
11-18-06, 14:29
Bart9000

Don't waste your breathe on these Ditto-Heads. They are too stupid to realize their news sources are being manipulated.

Digitalcurry

Sinanju Master
11-18-06, 15:58
Let's not forget that Carter was responsible for funding and arming the Mujahideen against the Soviets. Some say that support started earlier, and actually caused (provoked) the Soviet invasion. Reagan continued the policy. The Mujahideen, of course, morphed into the Taliban, and somewhat less directly, into Al Qaeda. A classic case of blowback.


I've often wondered what the result would have been if we DIDN'T fund the Mujahadeen and just stayed out. I feel that one scenario is that the Soviets would have had their hand buried inside a hornets nest while we sat back and watched the result with amused interest. Bin Laden may now have been solely THEIR problem (in Afghanistan AND possibly Chechnya) instead of ours.

Digital Curry
11-18-06, 16:45
I've often wondered what the result would have been if we DIDN'T fund the Mujahadeen and just stayed out. I feel that one scenario is that the Soviets would have had their hand buried inside a hornets nest while we sat back and watched the result with amused interest. Bin Laden may now have been solely THEIR problem (in Afghanistan AND possibly Chechnya) instead of ours.

American adventurism has always resulted in awful unintended consequences.

Bart9000
11-18-06, 18:49
Bart9000

Don't waste your breathe on these Ditto-Heads. They are too stupid to realize their news sources are being manipulated.

Digitalcurry

I know that it is an exercise in futility, but I feel a certain obligation to try drag these mouth breathing, ass backwards REGRESSIVE (lets stop using the euphemism "conservative" and call it for what it is) dipshits into at least the twentieth century. Besides, it's kind of fun demonstrating to the world how these schmuck can't think logically, and that their worldview is based in "feelings" (They refer to them as things that they KNOW, or "common sense") and kneejerk reactionalism.


Obviously, I'm going to have to educate this fucktard:
__________________________________________________________________
Lesson #1

Hey Douchebag,

Do you or do you not understand that you saying something does not make it a factual statement? For example, you have stated several times that I have "sloppy thinking". In what way is my thinking sloppy? Does you saying that I do make it a factual truth? If no further standard is applied than for something to be uttered from the lips, then I will make a statement that you like to give tongue baths to Bangladeshi pre-pubescent boys after they finish their soccer games. THERE!!!! See, I said it, so it's a factual truthful statement. That is exactly the standard that you want to be held to. So.........sweaty little Bangladeshi boys it is.

___________________________________________________________________'


Just watch too......I bet he is getting ready to start crying about (due to my usage of profanity) the "assault on traditional American Values" and "war on our culture" ...................on the fucking ISG....Generally speaking, I just LOOOVE that one.....These fucking pricks brag all day long about the Constitution and all of the freedom that the Bill of Rights guarantees............until someone says something they don't like.....then it's time to find a pretense to shut them up.


B9k

Hardbarg
11-19-06, 00:27
I want to hear one of three things out of you. Anything else that you post has exactly as much validity as pounding on the keyboard:

oijtpoihpiouh26q26w4625jn25wpokpjop2j5k2k5k54ypok2pokypok

1. A relevant valid response to my points below. You can spew logical fallacies, things you "know" (but can't intellectually justify----those are called "feelings", and they matter for nothing), and insults all day long...they prove noting but your idiocy.

2. You not acting like a fucking pussy, manning up, finding some testicles, and admitting you are wrong.

3. Shut the fuck up and go back to giving Rush Limbaugh a rimjob.

So which one is it going to be?


B9k
Please tell me that you're going to hold your breath and stamp your feet until you get your way.

Bart9000
11-19-06, 09:00
Please tell me that you're going to hold your breath and stamp your feet until you get your way.

And what we have here is yet even another Ad Hominem logical fallacy, attacking me with a charge of implied childishness in leiu of anything even remotely resembling a substantive valid response. You don't seem to be able to do anything except generate these. Perhaps you should study up a bit, and improve your repertoir (sp?) of ignorance...maybe you could move up to say another right wing favorite the "straw man":

From wikipedia

In Logic

"An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself (Are you paying attention douchebag?). The implication is that the person's argument and/or ability to argue correctly lacks authority. ............"

Hmmmm....Know what else I don't see here? A FACTUAL justification that I have "sloppy thinking". Am I to assume then that by the rules you play by, again, one only need utter an assertion to have it be fact, without any support in reality? That being the case, having previously uttered said assertion, I must chastize you for your molestation under the pretense of hygeine of prepubescent third world boy's soccer teams. That type of behavior really is reprehensible and despicable. I understand that it is the "in" thing among the regressives in the GOP this year, but c'mon. I thought you people believed in "traditional values"....why don't you just let those "boys be boys".

B9k

Hardbarg
11-19-06, 16:23
Please tell me that you're going to hold your breath and stamp your feet until you get your way.

Bart9000
11-19-06, 21:58
Please tell me that you're going to hold your breath and stamp your feet until you get your way.

And here we have documentation that you lack to lack the brainpower to even create a DIFFERENT batch of invalid meaningless crap, and are instead repeating yourself. You really are pathetic. At least next time, pound on the keyboard:


pkjiopjpiojpoijpojpojt43k1popokipok'lk'lkpijpiojp[oj43pojpogpokjpokjgpko0puj3tpoi5poi

Doing so would have exactly the same amount of validity and meaning, but would at least be something different to look at.



Well, I've pretty much definitively proven that you have the reasoning and analytical skills of your average gelatinous dessert. We REALLY need to hear more from people like you about how the world should be run.

But fear not-all isn't lost. Later, if I'm feeling motivated, I will continue to educate you in the mysterious ways of logic and reason. Be warned however if you master them you will have to change your political ideology.
B9k

Hardbarg
11-20-06, 06:18
You just don't get it. You're not worth the effort.

Bart9000
11-20-06, 07:20
.....pathetic rationalization!!!!!!!!

The substitution of a rational pretext for a real reason, with an implication of self-delusion or hypocrisy; the improvisation of a plausible reason for a human action when one either does not realize the real reason or seeks to keep it secret; the use of a false but reasonable justification or interpretation of an attitude or action, which appears to be unsatisfactory or contrary to accepted reasoning, when one is either ashamed or not aware of his actual motive. HA. 78-79; TH. 280-82.
www.mises.org/easier/R.asp

Lets have Lesson 2: (Subtitled-"How not to be an irrational ignorant moron")

A "sound argument" generally consists of two things. A conclusion, and factual, valid supporting evidence (I may be using incorrect terminology)

When an argument is put forth, and is sound, it is presumed to be the winner, unless the other side can do one of two things:

1: Prove that the supporting evidence is not factual.

2. Prove that the supporting evidence which MAY in fact BE factual, does not suport the conclusion that is drawn from it as the premise of the argument. .


These are the ONLY things that "knock down" a "sound" argument, and making it "unsound", thus making the holder of the opposing position the winner of the debate.

Included in the list of things that DO NOT make an opposing argument "unsound" are some of the following:

Logical Fallacies (Ad Hominem and others)

Insults-"You are childish" "You are a sloppy thinker"

Rationalizations, such as "You just aren't worth it", "I'm not even going to read that because the formatting is terrible"


Reiterating, until you come up with a way to either prove that my supporting points are non-factual, or do not support my conclusion, you LOSE the argument. End of story. You can protest, rationalize deny and insult all day long, but that is all just basically pointless meaningless "noise".

Later, we'll deconstruct your last pathetic attempt to do this.

B9k

Hardbarg
11-20-06, 15:07
It's bad enough trying to clean up your sloppy thinking, I don't have to deal with your sloppy presentation.

Bart9000
11-20-06, 17:20
It's bad enough trying to clean up your sloppy thinking, I don't have to deal with your sloppy presentation.

And here we have the dual rationalization/insult........still just "noise" of course, which means nothing but...........

Do you really think anyone believes that you have some brilliant counter-argument sandbagged, but refuse to present it on the grounds that you find my "sloppy thinking" (which I posit is actually inasmuch as that phrase has meaning at all that, that YOU who are engaging in it as YOU are the one who can't use logic and reason), and sloppy formatting objectionable.

Do you know why you can't argue with me? Because your ideology is based not in reason and rational thought, but instead in ignorance, "feelings", and "common sense" (self serving, comforting, drivel).

So, at this time, I will repeat MYSELF. The world REALLY needs the input from people like you (see above) about the way that it should be run, and you should shut the fuck up and go back to giving Rush Limbaugh a rimjob.

B9k

Hardbarg
11-21-06, 01:12
You just don't get it. You're not worth the effort.

Bart9000
11-21-06, 19:47
Want to know the difference between me and you?


You say that I'm not worth the effort.

I've PROVEN that you aren't.


B9k

MJG Dogs
11-21-06, 21:43
Maybe this thread is a waste of time. My god what are my choices.??

The Cake and Croissant Democrats-

Raise taxes on everyone- They lie when they say they want tax cuts for the Middle class- To the Dems , anyone making over $ 10K USD per year is Upper Class.

Appeasement and taking marching orders from The UN and The goddam EU
Why would any American want to listen to these two organizations. The UN needs to get out, the american people need to throw them out of here. And the goddam Europeans, who still do not get it. They are toothless, and cannot resolve political conflict. We then fall into their trap, for fighting for them, eg: The Balkans-The euros wanted to protect the muslims against the Serbs, who were smart enough to see that the Kosivars were terriorists and wanted to kill them. Whom did we bomb- The Serbs, WRONG CHOICE. Yet the Dems drool over these two worhless organizations.

Gitmo and rights for terriorist- WTF? Do you clowns on the left think that Iran, Al-Queda etc.. give any captured combatants any rights? No, usually they hold them for ransom, or cut their throtas like sheep in the slaughterhouse.

Wire tapping- So What..... Why not I it can stop an attack.


Now for the Republicans and the Christians........


Abortion- Do the christains want to adopt all of these kids that are unwanted? ya, I am pro-choice, but hate the late term shit, but who am I to say what is moral? And who is the congress? Roe vs Wade is law, leave it alone.

Tax breaks for churches- make them pay, instead of pandering to them, tax Jesus also- for in America- Jesus is a corporation, preaches make money, they are not passing the hat at church for your salvation, but for Brother Leon's new cadillac, or Pastor Fred's now Explorer.

Illegal Immigration- The republicans are MUCH WORSE than the democrats on this, except for Tancredo and a few others, who understand the real issue. The rest of the republican turn a blind eye for they are in bed with the corporations that hire these illegals, thus depressing wages and causing the taxpayers to pay for medical, welfare, Social security etc.. for them. At least with the Dems you know what their aganda is as far as illegals.

Corruption- Too many reoublicans getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar, at least the DEMS are smarter in covering their tracks, except for Jefferson from Louisiana, for which nothing will happen, for you see in America black politicians can do as they please, without punishment in most cases, because the media protects them and whites are afraid of being called racists. But the Abranoff scandal really taints the republicans.

Internet gambling ban and tightening of restrictions on foreign marraiage agencies- Government needs to stay out of this- This again was led by the far right, the Chrisitans were behind the tightening on the marraige agenices, for you see the christain right wants us to marry the goddam fat overweight white woman that goes to church, and gets angrey when we marry the much younger colombiana or girl from Asia.

Also get Politicians from all walks of life in there. We may get fresher ideas and get the stench of Lawyers out of there

Hardbarg
11-22-06, 04:12
sfb9000:

you DO like to hear yourself talk.

Bart9000
11-22-06, 06:03
.....I have definitively shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no reason, ration, or logic in the things that you "think".

.....I have caused the probably 3-400 people who read this thread to envision you (most probably the stereotypical "ugly monger"- mid fiftyish, smuggling a basketball under a ratty T-shirt, pathetically deluded that the girl "really loves the way I give it to her"), both giving Rush Limbaugh a rimjob, as well as a pre-pubescent third world boy's soccer team a post game tonguebath.

I'm declaring myself to be the unqualified victor. Don't get the idea that I'm bragging, as giving you "a thumpin" wasn't much of a challenge.

So go right ahead and make all the glib little comments that you want (you may actually be dumb enough to believe that they are in effect more than the often mentioned random pounding on the keyboard)...........

But do be completely assured that you have been pimp slapped, ***** slapped, taken to the woodshed, and sent to bed with no dinner.

B9k

MJG Dogs
11-22-06, 09:41
Jesus Christ Bart- stop the comments about third world boy's soccer teams. That is way over the line. Actually if you want my opinion, you come accross as
a egotistical fool who does not have enough smarts to know when he has gone over the line. realistically I don't give a shit if you gave hardbag a thumping, nor do the other 3,000 + others whom read this thread. Nobody gives a fuck. Okay????? Bill Clinton wouldn't give a fuck either,

Bart9000
11-22-06, 17:08
I'm sure that this is going to be lost on you, but I was MAKING a POINT with my gross and depraved comments about third world boy's soccer teams. Your brother in stupidity, douchebag doesn't understand that one needs to do more than MAKE a statement about someting in order for it to be a factual truth.

I was going to let someone else straighten you out in the interest of not being involved in a flame war, but now that you bring it up, YOU are a fucking moron, too.


The UN-Yea, multi-lateral decision making is a REAL bad idea (you get the sarcasm right?). Let's see here-WE think invading IRAQ is a good idea. France and Germany don't. Hmmmm maybe we should listen to someone who has a different perspective for example before we start a war FOR NO FUCKING REASON, that is probably going to end up killing well over one million INNOCENT citizens of Iraq, not to mention our casualties, including the what (I can't remember the exact number) huge number of maimed and mangled solldiers......or the national debt......you understand that WE get to pay that right....and here you are crying about taxes. I can't definitively verify this to be true, but I'm inclined to believe it-each American taxpayer's share of the Iraq war is currently just a hair nder $30,000.


The EU -is slowly, methodically wiping out poverty in Eastern Europe through free trade and mobility of labor..........basically slowly turning "Prague into Paris". Fuck, I could even see them in 20-30 years starting to expand into the North African countries to continue the process there.

And I don't even know where to start with your assertions that we should have HELPED the Serbs commit ethnic genocide against Muslims. Prejudiced bigoted fuck just for starters. You do understand that people who aren't like you are also human beings right?

Your logic: Some Muslims are terrorists. So we should destroy all Muslims (by supporting an ethnic cleansing).

Well here is the problem with that. SOME AMERICANS are terrorists. Does the name Tim McVeigh ring any bells? How about Ted Kazinski? Didn't the individual mailing anthrax turn out to be a local boy too? By your logic, since SOME Americans are terrorists, it would be OK for someone to wipe us out.

Guantanamo-given that you seem to think that ethnic genocide is a good idea, you probably don't have a problem with the concept of a potentially innocent men rotting their lives away in a jail cell for the duration of a theoretically indefinite war. Well I do. The Bush administration says these are "bad people" (and I'm not saying that some of them aren't). Well we've all seen their track record on being correct.

Wire Tapping-See my comments about trending towards fascism

B9k

Sinanju Master
11-22-06, 21:41
I'm gonna wear a white and black striped jersey. Guys this flame war is a waste of time and it can be draining on the combatants. Several years ago, I was in a flame war with another poster over what I thought was his misguided thinking. After thinking about his comments that led to the war, and doing a little introspection, I actually came to the conclusion he was right and I was wrong. Looking back on the war, it unnecessarily took a lot of my time that could have been better spent doing other things. Thinking about how to "return fire" in order to lay waste to your opponent is a waste of time. Also, it's not productive regarding the purpose of the title of the board. I'm not telling you not to fight ('cos I know you'll continue without my intervention, anyway) but do you really want to plot all day, thinking about a witty, slicing remark that will "put my enemy in his place"? I'm probably the LAST guy who should be saying this for fear of appearing to be on a high horse, but let's get back to intelligent discourse. <blowing whistle to resume play>

Bart9000
11-22-06, 22:38
Yea man I hear you. BELIEVE ME I have better things to do than rip up morons all day and night(and there are an infinite number of them). You will notice that I originally ignored the incredibly ignorant post of this MJ whatever fucktard .....and actually my "declaration of victory" below was a big final smack before I started to ignore douchebag's brilliant "retorts"......de facto "I know you are but what am I", which could go on to infinity.

On the other hand, I am a little touchy about the assault that goes on against ration, reason and logic, having seen in the last five plus years the damage that can be done by that type of thinking (dubya "just knew" Iraq had WMD, millions of evangelicals or whatever KNOW that they are the "chosen people" and the only ones going to heaven, and that everyone who believes anyting else needs to be "corrected".....at the expense of their freedom and civil rights). Now I do realize I can lash out and explain logical arguments against room temperature IQ's like these two all day long to no effect (and it really doesn't matter, because most likely they aren't in a position to affect the world at large). But then they aren't the only ones reading.............Now fortunately, most of the actual POWER moving engaged in the direction has been neutralized (ironically the premise of the original post that started this little war)..........but the defense of liberty requires eternal vigilance.....even on the internet

B9k

Carlos Primeros
11-22-06, 23:35
Gentlemen,

I had been through most of the wars in Africa, Asia and the Balcans.

I started out in Angola and Mozambique, than my government had the brilliant idea to send me to the collapsing Vietnam. Cambodia was next before I ended in the Iraq/Iran war. This war was fun. On the Iraqi side you had been sitting behind the mine-fields watching the the Iranian boys getting their limps blown away with their green plastic key of paradies around their neck. It was really fun shooting with a GIMPY on some of the kids. Later it was some African countries and then Bosnia. It was nice killing other people just because the had been in front of your machine-gun. - DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS?????

In my opinion every politician who orders soldiers to the front should go first and take the first bullet. I guarantee - there will be no war in the world anymore.

Mr. Bush was defending FREEDOM of the FREE WORD in Texas during the Vietnam war. I was missing him when Saigon fell to the communists. Where was he???

Please - every poitician who is advocating war should simply come with me to see it first-hand.

But I really think that they are only interested in the amount they have on their bank-account. Right Mr. Cheney?

Carlos Primeros
deposed king of Portugal and tired of all wars in the world!

Sinanju Master
11-23-06, 00:08
if Dubya was interested in FREEING the citizenry of country X, then why didn't he free the citizens of NORTH KOREA? Their citizens are suffering (oppression, starvation, etc) under Kim Jong Il (and before HIM, Kim Il Sung) AND they are a nuclear threat! Hmm... lemme see, I guess he chose to pick on Iraq INSTEAD of North Korea because North Korea has a very sizeable army (the fourth largest on earth), nuclear weapons, China as an ally (1.3 BILLION people), and no oil. That's MY take on why Dubya and his administration are fraudulent. Not to mention that he should never have been Prez in the FIRST PLACE. His supporters would rather have a fog-minded simpleton who's God-fearing than someone who is capable and doesn't kowtow to the "Christian Mafia".

Hardbarg
11-23-06, 02:11
sfb9000:

you DO like to hear yourself talk.

George90
11-23-06, 17:44
Guys this flame war is a waste of time and it can be draining on the combatants. Several years ago, I was in a flame war with another poster over what I thought was his misguided thinking. After thinking about his comments that led to the war, and doing a little introspection, I actually came to the conclusion he was right and I was wrong. Looking back on the war, it unnecessarily took a lot of my time that could have been better spent doing other things. Thinking about how to "return fire" in order to lay waste to your opponent is a waste of time. Also, it's not productive regarding the purpose of the title of the board.

Very intelligent post. I just wonder what took you so long. I wish you had engaged in that type of thinking when you tried to bait me into a flame war with you 2 months ago.

MJG Dogs
11-23-06, 20:05
well now- we can all now change course and talk about what the US Government is going to do over the tensions brewing between Israel and the French. The french "so-called" peacekeepers are now threatening to shoot down IDF recon pilots, whom are trying to find where hezbollah has rearmed. If the US government were smart, they would let Israel deal with the French. I think the French would get off one shot and that would be it, Israel's IDF will massacre the French. Then what would we get. We would get more of the Anti-Semetic venom spewing from the European Union, more blustering etc... and then the Anti-American venom would come out of the sewers of Brussels etc... For these days Europe not only scapegoats their problems towards the Jews ( my my some things never change), but also blame the Americans. The American public needs to realize that Europe is not, nor has not been our allies,e xcept the british, since the of the second war, and this is regardless of whom is the President. The smug bastards liked Clinton because they talked Clinton into doing their dirty work in the Balkans, but always criticized Clinton about other trade issues etc... Granted the venom was not like it is now, but it was still there during Clinton's tenure. These Europeans I think yearn for a day when the American public will follow what Brussels dictates. No american government, nor will the american public ever tolerate the restrictions of Kyoto, or tolerate a German or European court having to ability to grab Americans for trial in Brussels, or tolerate Eu/World consumption taxes and some of the looney shit that the Euro's want to attempt to impose on us
I must say these europeans are something else, their arrogance is beyond belief.


Bush and Rice should do the right thing here and stay the fuck out of this fight on the surface, but should continue to send Israel military aid. The EU has allied with the Arabs in order to get their oil and the appease the 25 million muslims living in Europe, and of course in order to hope that the Jewish people dissapear from the earth once and for all. Europe is still the anti-semetic place it was in the 1930's.

Do not be surprised if there is armed conflict soon. I personally would enjoy and IDF raid on Paris....

Sinanju Master
11-23-06, 21:06
Very intelligent post. I just wonder what took you so long. I wish you had engaged in that type of thinking when you tried to bait me into a flame war with you 2 months ago.

I don't try to "bait" ANYONE. If I perceived the fact that you trashed me without provocation (such as you did A] WITHOUT offering an intelligent alternative and B] offering the tip of a sword instead of the open hand of intelligent dialogue), I'll return fire. You did JUST THAT and I returned fire.

Can we put down the swords now?

MJD, the EU (in my opinion) is only a monetary might because they assembled a machine of many parts that was made to think alike. However, remember that a machine that has many moving parts is more likely to break down than one that has fewer moving parts (like the US). I get more and more hints from the opinions of the man on the street that the EU is an inperfect machine.

MJG Dogs
11-23-06, 21:28
Sinaju- you may be right and that is an excellent parallel you bring up. However the EU needs to clean up its own mess before it dictates to the American people and to the american government, conversly, maybe it is time for the american government to cut bait with Europe. Europe is a drag on the american government and the american people, we get very little , if any return from the Europeans, except our tourist get hassled and spat upon, by the more "civilized europeans".

More dialogue on the french/Israel situation on the Jerusulem Post website for those who want to see what is going on, for this is not being reported on by the Americand media, too hot for them I guess. I guess they would rather report on Michael Richards and his stupid rant, or on Tom Cruise/katie Holmes, pathetic man.

George90
11-24-06, 02:14
Sinaju- you may be right and that is an excellent parallel you bring up. However the EU needs to clean up its own mess before it dictates to the American people and to the american government, conversly, maybe it is time for the american government to cut bait with Europe. Europe is a drag on the american government and the american people, we get very little , if any return from the Europeans, except our tourist get hassled and spat upon, by the more "civilized europeans".

What you say may be correct. However, I think you have left some important stuff out of the argument. The US is not in a strong economic position due to its huge budget and trade deficits. Our federal government borrows from foreigners to plug the deficit. Those foreigners are mostly Chinese, Arab, and European.

All any of them need to do to Royally F*** the US is simply to stop lendng to our federal government (through buying Treasury bonds). The consequences of that will be a huge drop in the value of the US dollar, much higher interest rates, and much higher inflation rates.

We saw some of that happen last year when South Korea accidently said that they planned to "rebalance" their reserve currency portfolio to include more euros and less dollars. The Koreans had to scramble fast telling everyone for a week that they were only thinking about it, they had no plans to actually do it. South Korea is a MINOR player in the US T-bill market. Imagine what will happen if an oil money rich Arab country, like Saudi Arabia, said the same thing!

MJG Dogs
11-24-06, 02:50
well george- what does the american household do when it is in debt-

It cuts spending
It does not buy on credit

Why can't our government freeze the level of spending and entitlements for three to five years? If we quit spendign money like drunks, then it the needs to borrow moneis from foreign investors would decrease. But no, both Demorats and Republicans earmark all kinds of wasteful shit, and give away everything. Also why for God sakes do we still give europe, Military aid?. That is a zero retrun on investment?

Beavis
11-24-06, 06:09
Quote Lewis Black:

"The only thing dumber than a Republican or a Democrat is when these assholes work together".

MJG Dogs
11-24-06, 08:20
hey beavis;

When are the alligators going to be planted in the Rio Grande. Your idea about securing the Rio Grande is th ebst I have heard so far. Also read up on some more shit, Tancredo is stating that there is framework already started led by Dumbo and Vicente fox to create an American Union an AU, that means se se puede everywhere, we need to stop this shit, oh I too will be in Colombia full time. I hope all is well...

yes americans Bush is giving away our soverignty to the free trade crowd, we may become part of a EU like union. THAT WOULD REALLY SUCK

Hardbarg
11-24-06, 10:57
What you say may be correct. However, I think you have left some important stuff out of the argument. The US is not in a strong economic position due to its huge budget and trade deficits. Our federal government borrows from foreigners to plug the deficit. Those foreigners are mostly Chinese, Arab, and European.

All any of them need to do to Royally F*** the US is simply to stop lendng to our federal government (through buying Treasury bonds). The consequences of that will be a huge drop in the value of the US dollar, much higher interest rates, and much higher inflation rates.

We saw some of that happen last year when South Korea accidently said that they planned to "rebalance" their reserve currency portfolio to include more euros and less dollars. The Koreans had to scramble fast telling everyone for a week that they were only thinking about it, they had no plans to actually do it. South Korea is a MINOR player in the US T-bill market. Imagine what will happen if an oil money rich Arab country, like Saudi Arabia, said the same thing!
The exposure to foreign creditors is definitely not a good thing, but the reason they don't "foreclose" isn't exactly out of the goodness of their hearts. The US remains the most politically and economically stable place to park assets there is, so they're going to keep doing it. That's the kind of thing that could change if the US goes around losing wars on a regular basis.

But more importantly, it's like they say - if you owe the bank $1000, you have a problem, if you owe the bank $1,000,000, the bank has a problem. Destabilizing the dollar and/or the US economy by calling the debt is likely to cause more of an upheavel in the rest of the world than in the US, so it's in their own best self interest to keep buying Treasuries. Of course, nothing lasts forever.

George90
11-24-06, 18:02
well george- what does the american household do when it is in debt-

It cuts spending
It does not buy on credit

Why can't our government freeze the level of spending and entitlements for three to five years?

Because of corporate welfare! Lots of big firms, like Halliburton, Boeing, and many smaller firms, see the federal goernment as a huge breast lactating all kinds of money to for them. Defense contractors, security contractors, election machine software writers, Medicaid and Medicare claims processors, all have a vested interest in keeping the government spending huge amounts of money. They pay all those lobbyists, (Abramoff et al), to reward politicians, (DeLay, Ney, et al) to keep the money flowing.

When We the People learn to do with less and smaller government handouts, then we can vote those guys out, and vote in more financially reponsible politicians.

George90
11-24-06, 18:08
Also read up on some more shit, Tancredo is stating that there is framework already started led by Dumbo and Vicente fox to create an American Union an AU, that means se se puede everywhere, we need to stop this shit,

That is true! Bush has wanted to create a North American free trade zone with open trade between Canada, the US, and Mexico. Also in the works is a special trade agreement with the Caribbean. We know that a special trade agreement with Central America has already been signed. Bush's corporate supporters have wanted free trade for the entire western hemisphere! Their goal is to move certain types of low skilled jobs out of the US and into countries like Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, etc, where they can pay dirt cheap wages and no health insurance.

The US could look like a third world country in 25 years. Just the rich and the poor, no middle class.

George90
11-24-06, 18:15
The exposure to foreign creditors is definitely not a good thing, but the reason they don't "foreclose" isn't exactly out of the goodness of their hearts. The US remains the most politically and economically stable place to park assets there is, so they're going to keep doing it. That's the kind of thing that could change if the US goes around losing wars on a regular basis.

But more importantly, it's like they say - if you owe the bank $1000, you have a problem, if you owe the bank $1,000,000, the bank has a problem. Destabilizing the dollar and/or the US economy by calling the debt is likely to cause more of an upheavel in the rest of the world than in the US, so it's in their own best self interest to keep buying Treasuries. Of course, nothing lasts forever.

What you say is exactly correct and very true. And therein lies great danger.

Both you and I know that the oil rich nations and the US need each other for mutual benefit. We need them to get the oil we need and lend us the money we do not have the will to stop borrowing. They need us for a safe place to invest their money.

Now, imagine that al Qaeda comes to the same conclusion as you, and realizes that a decline in the ability of oil rich countries to continue to lend to us will disrupt both the US and those countries. Bin Laden vowed to overthrow Suadi Arabia because he felt they were defiling Islam, the Prophets, and the Holy cities of Mecca and Medina. The terrorists can hit 2 or 3 birds with 1 stone if they attack and destabilize the currency and international finance markets.

I think we are very lucky that the madrasses that train terrorists do not teach them finance!

Leeuwen
11-24-06, 19:15
Do not be surprised if there is armed conflict soon. I personally would enjoy and IDF raid on Paris....

Hahaha, MJG Dogs must be one very frustrated Jew. So much hatred and incomprehensible criticism of EU and Europeans. Tell you what young man, sign up for a 3 years military service contract with Israeli army and once you defeat the trash army of Hezbollah, then you can start thinking of the French ;) I guess I won't keep my breath.

George90
11-24-06, 23:29
The following was in a financial article Nov. 24, 2006:

The dollar dropped sharply against a broad range of major currencies today, and the euro broke through the $1.30 mark for the first time in a year and a half, highlighting concern about the strength of the American economy.

The dollar’s losses came during a thin trading day in which the British pound rose to its strongest value against the dollar in two years. The Japanese yen and the Swiss franc also gained at the dollar’s expense.

Analysts said that the dollar’s drop today reflected a growing anxiety over Chinese economic policy. China’s central bank holds a large amount of American currency, and speculation has intensified recently that it could begin selling off dollars to avoid being burned if the dollar collapses.

Beavis
11-25-06, 00:56
hey beavis;

When are the alligators going to be planted in the Rio Grande. Your idea about securing the Rio Grande is th ebst I have heard so far. Also read up on some more shit, Tancredo is stating that there is framework already started led by Dumbo and Vicente fox to create an American Union an AU, that means se se puede everywhere, we need to stop this shit, oh I too will be in Colombia full time. I hope all is well...

yes americans Bush is giving away our soverignty to the free trade crowd, we may become part of a EU like union. THAT WOULD REALLY SUCK

Yes the alligator plan was a classic. I hate to even get started in these political topics because of the high number of Americans that hold the illusion of Bush being a god. Just like when they claimed that iflation was below 3% about a month ago. I don't know where these people are shopping but it sure isn't the same store I do.

MJG Dogs
11-25-06, 03:26
beav

the problem is not just bush, but all of them. too many lawyers, feeding at the trough, we really need a third party. the dems are now just as bad as the repub's. it sucks. but hey maybe the tony lama butch's from the del rey will run as a third party, complete with snakeskin boots and speedos

Beavis
11-25-06, 05:17
Yes that is true. Neither one is worth a shit. Both a gang of crooked liars that want more for themselves and less for us.

http://i.euniverse.com/funpages/cms_content/13180/HillaryCondi_HoDown.swf

MJG Dogs
11-25-06, 06:12
fucking funny as hell beavis.

Hardbarg
11-25-06, 11:24
Both you and I know that the oil rich nations and the US need each other for mutual benefit. We need them to get the oil we need and lend us the money we do not have the will to stop borrowing. They need us for a safe place to invest their money.

Now, imagine that al Qaeda comes to the same conclusion as you, and realizes that a decline in the ability of oil rich countries to continue to lend to us will disrupt both the US and those countries. Bin Laden vowed to overthrow Suadi Arabia because he felt they were defiling Islam, the Prophets, and the Holy cities of Mecca and Medina. The terrorists can hit 2 or 3 birds with 1 stone if they attack and destabilize the currency and international finance markets.

I think we are very lucky that the madrasses that train terrorists do not teach them finance!
If you think the top echelons of Jihadist terrorism aren't at least as knowledgeable about international finance as us great thinkers on ISG, you're fooling yourself. Keeping the brainwashed foot soldiers ignorant is irrelevant. It's very true there is a real, committed, murderous enemy with multiple incentives to attack us out there. The mystery is why it hasn't happened again.

On the other hand, 9/11 didn't destabilize much of anything, and there's no reason to assume another attack of similar intensity would either. Allowing things like Iraq to turn into a demonstration that the US is a bumbling, ineffectual, paper tiger in dealing with it's enemies is another story. Similarly, failing to treat energy independence as a national security issue is extremely dangerous. Unfortunately, what we get are subsidies for corn farmers instead.

Jon32
11-27-06, 01:55
MJG - to continue from colombia photo gallery, why that view on europeans?

I am American by the way.

MJG Dogs
11-27-06, 06:06
Jon32:

View on Europeans, ok here we go:

1) The Europeans do not know how to tell the difference between Americans and American Politics. Many Europeans have been and down right hostile to american tourist, where as you hardly ever hear of a European tourist being hassled while they are here. There is no reason to spit on American children in London, beat this hsit out of some guy from Utah, who was trying to run down two thieves who stole his camcorder, he was pummeled in the streets of Naples, by both Italian citizens and by the police. It took an apology from the mayor of Naples to soothe things over, and of course our worthless state department did nothing to help this guy. My girlfriend whom is Colombian works for her aunt in Milan, says that most of the young people in Milan hassle Americans. And yet the hypocracy of Europeans who want our tourist dollars and act like this, Fuck Them.....

2) Europeans trying to impose the laws of Europe on americans. eg: International Criminal courts, consumption tariffs, shaking down of Microsoft etc... Who do these fuckers think they are? Fuck them.....

3) anti-semitism- first of all I am not Jewish, nor am I a practicing christian. But if you read on what is going on in Europe now you see the 1930's all overa agin. Jews are starting to be beaten in the cities, especially in France, Belguim and to a lessor extent Spain and Italy. Lets face it Europe still uses the jews as a scapegoat, but Europe is still angry about Israel surviving after 1948, for when Israel was founded the Europeans were all for it, for they thought that the Arabs would wipe the Jews out, eg: finish the holocaust, now they always side with the palestinians, not becuase of any great love for the Palestinians, but of shear hatred of Israel. The Europeans for years hid their hatred of Israel, I guess out of shame, but not anymore.

4) Constant lecturing by the European media. In 2004 the British media sent thousands of e-mails telling the people in Ohio to vote for Kerry, of course this backfired, for americans as you know do not like having some Euro telling him whom to vote for. The European media likes to lecture us on how dumb Americans are? Well the Europeans I guess do not undertsand that there are more people with masters degrees in the United States than in Europe, as a whole. I also do not need Europe constantly hammering the UN to impose restrictions on gun ownership throughout the World. There is only one country whom Europe and the UN are targeting, The USA. I wonder why they do not want us to be armed? Think about it with an open mind. Hint, It has nothing to do with our soaring crime rates. Robberies per capita are much higher in Great Britain than they are here in the US. Again think why they do not want us to be armed?

5) The constant degrading of our dead soldiers who died liberating Europe from the Germans. the Uk Guardian and a French newspapers used Novermber 11th, 2006, as a day to defecate on our dead. they claim that the Americans were not very good fighters and did nothing to contribute to the victory. The in western europe now give the Soviets all of the credit for winning ww2. I guess they have never heard of Patton, whom was the most feared allied commander by the Germans in the second war. One of the editorails was written by a member of British parliament, someone from the Labor Party, It was revolting to read, but I was not surprised. I called his deputy and told him to come over here, to lets say georgia or alabama and spout his mouth and defecate the memory of the dead on american soil and see what would happen to him.




Do you wnat anymore examples. Americans need to understand one thing The Europeans have never liked us and now are not hiding their hatred towards Americans as a whole, we in their minds are one step above the Jews in their minds, and it is about time that Americans wake up to this fact and quit trying to be nice to them. We also need to pull out all of our troops out of Europe, and whn the Islamo-facists gobble up Europe, our govermnet and our military should not do a damm thing. It will be then that maybe we in this nation get serious about defending ourselves and quit listening to this worthless European continent. Yes my views may be extreme to some of you, but the five paragraphs that I pointed out above, are factual.........

Furiouz
11-27-06, 19:19
As G.W Nero plays with his toy soldiers in foreign lands, the people at home are felling yet more financial burdens


http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061127/ts_csm/cbonus

Jelly Donut
11-28-06, 00:56
As G.W Nero plays...Well, the trajectory of American power in the world makes for an interesting topic, but let me ask you - if you had a choice between living like Nero, Caligula and Commodus versus living like Augustus, Trajan or Marcus Aurelius who do you think you would pick?

Obviously, it's nice to go to your grave with everyone dwelling on your stoic values and high-minded accomplishments, but I can't imagine the men who read and post things on this forum are a natural fit for that kind of lifestyle. What does it really matter to you, personally, if the United States is in decline or not? I guess people get laid more often when culture is in decline. Nero knew how to throw a party.

Anyway, as an American, I point out, defensively and respectfully, that your analogy with Nero is not the best - since Nero was an emperor many years before the Roman Empire reached it's peak.

Leeuwen
11-28-06, 02:54
This guy got too little affection as kid. He couldn't restrain himself from stupid comments even in Colombia Photo Gallery! I'll keep it short, becasue my time is too valuable to comment on garbage that merely deserves a four plus three letter answer.

1) An American got his camcorder stolen in Naples, Italy. Wow, it's a big world you know, shit happends. I guess all New Yorkers are genuine assholes becasue somebody from Kazakhstan got pickpocketed there, right? Oh, schoolyard fights must be typical European? You have never been involved in a fight during elementary/high school time? Give me a break. What a whimp...
Tourists from all over the world come to visit Europe, and nobody gives a shit about their nationality. Why you believe that Europeans would pay special attention to Americans, yet spit on them (!), is beyond me. Most likely wishthinking from your side.

2) From http://www.icc-cpi.int/about.html
"The International Criminal Court (ICC) is an independent, permanent court that tries persons accused of the most serious crimes of international concern, namely genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. The ICC is based on a treaty, joined by 103 countries (http://www.icc-cpi.int/statesparties.html)."

Hence, ICC is similar to the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. Or did you object it too? Or does it bother you that there may exist American citizens who have committed crimes against humanity? Well, this should be decided by court of law, not by politicians who may or may not be involved in dirty business. The Bush administration has been trying to undermine the ICC by coarse bribes to dictators in 3rd world countries for either not joining the ICC, or not extradite Americans to the court. Yepp, anything goes, no remorse from an administration whose members possibly could be found guilty of war crimes. You know, the UN has never given its mandate to attack Iraq, so the war is illegitimate, and the suffering of Iraqi people...

If it makes you feel any better, current presidency (http://www.icc-cpi.int/organs/presidency.html) of ICC is held by three judges: One from Canada, one from Ghana, and one from Bolivia. By the way, the Red Cross HQ is located in Switzerland, Europe. Damn, we should stop those bastards from carrying out their mission, because they are surely infiltrated by European Union.

Regarding Microsoft, it has to comply with EU regulations, simple as that. Google for instance, had to bend over in China and obey their regulations. What did you expect, bring regulations from back home?


Who do these fuckers think they are?Masters of Europe, craddle of modern civilization.
How about that? You like it? You like it?

3) In several posts you have defended Jews and Israel, mentioning "...Jews and Americans", in aforementioned order. Excuse me, but I'm pretty sure you are just one very bitter and frustrated Jew. There is no shame in being Jewish, no reason to deny your origin.
On behalf of the UK, let me enlighten you, that there would be no Israel to start with, if the UK didn't fucking donate part of its colony, namely Palestine to your people. Do you understand me, you ungrateful....?
Only a lunatic can claim that such a noble act as donation of land to an ethnic group, was nothing else than an evil plan to annihilate Jews, three years after the WWII. And according to your conspiracy theory, the English did it in full cooperation with other Europeans. Should we assume that FD Rooselvelt, and later on Harry Truman, also participated in this conspiracy? Or perhaps they were totally clueless about what was going on?

4) Uhmm, uttermost schizophrenic, but let me rephrase what MJG Dogs actually says.
Europe is in favour of gun control and refers to statistics; firearms are dangerous, especially in hands of teethless rednecks and angry teenagers; the national security of the United States of America is at stake; Europe can take advantage of unarmed Americans and possibly attack the country. Ok, this must be yet a conspiracy theory of MJG Dogs.

"The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths (http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html) -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found. The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000."

"Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994:
United States 14.24; England and Wales 0.41; Japan 0.05;"

As usual MJG Dogs talks rubbish.

5)"The toehold established at Normandy was vital for the Western Allies (largely the British Commonwealth and the U.S.) to bring the war to the western border of Germany. By this time the Soviet forces had the capacity to crush Germany in Europe on their own, and therefore a western invasion was not strictly required to defeat the German Reich. On D-Day, the Red Army was steadily advancing towards Germany and four-fifths of the German forces were in the East. In France, the Allies faced only about 20% of the German army."

Source here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Overlord). Get the facts before you ask for attention!


Americans need to understand one thing The Europeans have never liked us and now are not hiding their hatred towards Americans as a whole, we in their minds are one step above the Jews in their minds, and it is about time that Americans wake up to this fact and quit trying to be nice to them.Talk for yourself, dude. You are saturated with hate, and nobody is interested nor capable of absorbing amounts of hate you are spreading on this forum. I don't know what has happened to you in the past, but I do feel sorry for you.

MJG Dogs
11-28-06, 03:25
you response to the point about the British "donating "part of a previous colony to form Israel speaks volumes. Again, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. But the line you ungrateful....... gee I wonder what you mean there limey? It is also interesting to note that Iraq and Israel were both formed out of Colonial Britian, interesting parallel. but we know you Brits did a mighty fine job in Iraq, in India and in Africa. Your colonies were harmonious and nobody ever was murdered or tortured, yes no killings at all during the times of Mr.Gandhi.

I am glad to know that you are the masters of Europe, craddle of civilization.
Should we bow to you now master?????

As far as the ICC goes , your right no remorse, no signatures from the Reagan, Bush 41, or Clinton administration either, sorry no remorse, no signature from any American Government, including a future one. It will not happen- get over it.

Kyoto- Nope, sorry

Furiouz
11-28-06, 07:50
Well, the trajectory of American power in the world makes for an interesting topic, but let me ask you - if you had a choice between living like Nero, Caligula and Commodus versus living like Augustus, Trajan or Marcus Aurelius who do you think you would pick?

Obviously, it's nice to go to your grave with everyone dwelling on your stoic values and high-minded accomplishments, but I can't imagine the men who read and post things on this forum are a natural fit for that kind of lifestyle. What does it really matter to you, personally, if the United States is in decline or not? I guess people get laid more often when culture is in decline. Nero knew how to throw a party.

Anyway, as an American, I point out, defensively and respectfully, that your analogy with Nero is not the best - since Nero was an emperor many years before the Roman Empire reached it's peak.


Arg, you are right. I keep getting my Emperors mixed up, I should I have read a little before posting. I keep thinking Nero was in the 4th century, but that was when the Empire split, no? To answer your question, Augustus and Pax Romana all the way.

George90
11-28-06, 17:52
On behalf of the UK, let me enlighten you, that there would be no Israel to start with, if the UK didn't fucking donate part of its colony, namely Palestine to your people.

This is a point of information for Leeeuwen and MJG regarding the formation of Israel.

The old and defeated Ottoman empire was divided among the Allies after WWI. France got a part that became Lebanon and Syria. Most of the rest was given to the Arab clans that helped the Allies defeat Turkey (the rule of the Ottoman empire). Some of those clans were the Saud clan which was given Suadi Arabia, other emirs were gven Kuwait, Qatar, United Arab Emirates. The Faisal clan got what became Iraq. The Hussein clan got what became Jordan.

An area under dispute was retained by Britain until the dispute could be resolved. That area was called Palestine and Trans-Jordania. The dispute was between Russian Jews who had been emigrating to that area since 1870 or so and wanted it for themselves, and native Arabs who wanted the land as tribute for fighting in the war. After years of terrorism by both Arabs and Jews (the Stern Gang) and after WWII, Britain, weakened from WWII and losing its other colonies, decided to succomb to US pressure and let Jewish refugees settle there in a new country called Israel.

Note that part of this pressure was due to the reluctance to let Jewish refugees settle in the US or in Britain proper. Palestine was never a British colony in the sense that India, the colonial US, Nigeria, Ghana, the West Indies, etc. were.

Carlos Primeros
11-28-06, 23:45
Hi Dogs - I am sorry for you and I pitty you.

What you write here is for sure is meanwhile a widely accepted opinion in the US.

But - the US Government creats the monsters they want to protect us from.
-Uncle Ho asked first the US after WWII for help before
he was turned down and asked the Russians and China
-The majority of the guns Castro got where from the US.
-Was Pinochet the elected president of Chile or Salvador
Allende?
-The US dealt with Iran in the IRAN/Contra affair
-Whome did you liberate in Afghanistan?
-Why do you not invade Syria? No oil????
-Why do you not invade Yemen - not enough DOPE???
-Why do you not stop the killing in Sierra Leone -
only NIGGERS???
-Why do you finace KABILA - because the French and the
Belgians are still deeply involved in the Kongo???

You know - American politics have fucked up the world considerably - I could continue this list forever - but why?

The shame is that the US is not a realy democracy - how many percent of the population actually register and vote?? 35 - 40 % ? Here in Europe approx. 70 - 80 % go and vote. You knwo that in Brazil you MUST vote or otherwise you do not get a passport???

The AMERICAN MAJORITY is not a majority - it is a minority which is manipulating the majority. - But that is an American problem - did you ever hear that Europe wanted to interfer in this or even dared to comment on this. Certainly not - we have a little bit of decency.

The strange thing is only - we Europeans do not hate Americans - not the citisen. They are the same people as we are - what do we want? Safety, health, luck, work, family, a steady income etc.

The Americans think, that all the world has to accept their values, regulations, laws and politics. Sorry - that is not the case. As home of the "real democracy" you have to accept that other people have other values and standards and if they disagree with you does not mean that they hate you. Here in Europe we are meanwhile at a level where we can afford to have a different view. We do not start a fight about it, we just ignore you if you do not have the politeness and fairness to accept also our views and do not accept that you impose your views on us.

My grand-parents came from 4 different European countries - I have a French family-name, served for several years in two armies in Africa, Asia and the Balkans. I know what war is and that it should be avoided by all means. Unfortunately I have not seen any notion in US Government policy towards that - The US is still carrying a big stick and uses it first and finds later out that it is stuck in deep shit. What freedom did you bring to Vietnam? What freedom and democracy are you bringing to Irak? The US was laughing at Hans Blix - he did not find Arms of Mass Destruction in Irak - that did not suit the US Government, so he was mobbed by your government. Where are these arms now? Was he right? The UN is doing a good job - mainly in Africa - the US is not even contributing to the budget of the UN - yes, the US is pleding every year money, but is not paying. But if there is some corruption in the UN (for sure that does never ever happen in the US Government) than the US is standing up and pointing fingers. The funny thing is - it is not even the US tax-payers money. So - what are you complaing about? I really do not know what the US has against the UN. They are using American Ideas - installing a Internation Court (American Idea - rember Nuernberg 1945/46) proclaiming human rights (American Idea - but only The US Government knows how to apply this rights) etc.

I do not think that we have to discuss Mr. Bush here - you see - we have the prerogative to have a different view on him.

Another funny thing: you mentioned guns. Do you know that the conscripts in Switzerland get their assault rifle to take them home after they leave the service? Did you ever hear that there are mass-murders in Switzerland. Do you know that Austria and Germany are armed to their teeths? The German population is a little bit under 100 million and the German FBI estimates that there are approx. 20 million arms in private hands. The same ratio applies to Austria as well. In the year 2005 whole Germany had 822 gun-related deaths. We do not want your values - where people are killed in drive-by shootings - we do not want to have your values where only the rich ones can afford a good education of their kids.

We do not hate you - but you are so ignorant that it is impossible to convince you and mak you accept that we have views which are different - not detrimental !!!

Therefore the best is - you go your way - we go our way.

Keep on mongering - I hope you can agree at least on that with us.

Carlos Primeros - King of Portugal in exile.

Bart9000
11-29-06, 05:09
you response to the point about the British "donating "part of a previous colony to form Israel speaks volumes. Again, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. But the line you ungrateful....... gee I wonder what you mean there limey? It is also interesting to note that Iraq and Israel were both formed out of Colonial Britian, interesting parallel. but we know you Brits did a mighty fine job in Iraq, in India and in Africa. Your colonies were harmonious and nobody ever was murdered or tortured, yes no killings at all during the times of Mr.Gandhi.

I am glad to know that you are the masters of Europe, craddle of civilization.
Should we bow to you now master?????

As far as the ICC goes , your right no remorse, no signatures from the Reagan, Bush 41, or Clinton administration either, sorry no remorse, no signature from any American Government, including a future one. It will not happen- get over it.

Kyoto- Nope, sorry


Truly a classic. This fucktard writes a fucking manifesto, only to have it shredded by facts and reason.......then responds with some incoherent babbling so he can pretend that he didn't just get shown to be the fool that he is.

So how does it feel to "straighten the world out" with a big declaration of your brilliant insight, only to be shown in no uncertain terms that you are a delusional, hate mongering moronic idiot.

By the way, do you still feel that the US should have helped Serbia commit ethnic genocide against Muslims in the former Yugoslavia.......fucking piece of shit fascist fuck.

B9k

Hit n Run
01-03-07, 09:01
“First of all, "tax and spend" is right wing propaganda. The debt and deficit shrank quite considerably the last time there was a Democrat in the white house..Only to be blown to historically unprescedented levels under "the current occupant", which has in addition to laying a huge debt (and future heavy taxation to eventually pay for it) on the US dollar...B9kGotta love how libs never let the facts get in the way of an emotional lecture. The federal debt increased every year under Clinton. http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdhisto4.htm
A popular dem myth, Clinton used smoke and mirrors. He transfered all war expenses to off-line budgeting, to create the imaginary good times. The debt never lies.

Libs embarrassingly view the economy in static fashion, as it helps their fictitious points. As a percentage of GDP, last years deficit didn't even make the top ten highest. Bush changed the Clinton shenanigans, and put the war expense online. If you subtracted the war and Katrina, we weren't far from a surplus last year.

The falling dollar: when you combine a booming economy with full employment and miniscule inflation, the interest rates become less attractive. In the last 3 years, the US economy has grown 20 percent, an amount greater than almost every economy in the world. Hedge funds are taking more risk due to increased liquidity, and are chasing the fast money in short term currency fluctations, ie, investing in countries with failing economies, high unemployment, and thus higher interest rates (hello Europe). The new dot com game is being played in manipulated futures markets, with the top 3 being gold, oil, and the euro the last 2 months.

The euro is right where it was 2 years ago, during which time unprecedented fortunes were made in US real estate, as well as smaller US market indexes like the Russell (doubled in the last 3 years). Hell, even the dow was up near 20% in the last 6 months. I'll take a massive net worth increase over a temporarily deflated dollar any day.

I guess libs dream of the glory Carter years, home to a prime interest rate of 21.5%, and 16% inflation...but oh boy that dollar was strong. Not to mention he's the father of terrorism. He booted out the Shah and installed Khomenei, creating the Islam nightmare we live we today. Plus, when he got bored, he back for a pro-dictator tour and negotiated giving nukes to N. Korea, and helped get Chavez elected.

The reason the US debt is out of control is failed liberal entitlement policies. We've spent tens of trillions on SS, Medicare, and Welfare, and currently have an unfunded liability near $20 trillion. The debt on these failed socialist experiments is also a multi-trillion dollar disaster.

Bart9000
01-03-07, 22:24
Who fed you this little gem? So there was no budget surplus? OK then, what was the fucking corrrupt incompetent piece of shit in the white house GIVING AWAY -retroactively- in the first months of his "presidency"? Surely the poster boy, arch prince, "prodigal son" of conservatism wasn't handing out money that we didn't have. I got a check some where around like June of 2000 (or was that 01). Didn't you get one? If I recall correctly, that would have been for President' Clinton's last year in office


"A popular dem myth, Clinton used smoke and mirrors. He transfered all war expenses to off-line budgeting, to create the imaginary good times. The debt never lies.

Libs embarrassingly view the economy in static fashion, as it helps their fictitious points. As a percentage of GDP, last years deficit didn't even make the top ten highest. Bush changed the Clinton shenanigans, and put the war expense online. If you subtracted the war and Katrina, we weren't far from a surplus last year."


Would you care to document this statement? Kindly source it by someone that isn't a right wing talk facist. For that matter, WHAT WAR EXPENSES would you be referring to? I wasn't paying too much attention at the time, but I don't believe that there was much of a war during the Clinton presidency. We bombed Serbia......had some kind of a little intervention in Haiti........to the extent of my knowledge, neither of those military actions required paying civilian contractors 10,000+ a month (and I don't even want to KNOW what Halliburton is BILLING for people like that).


I find it interesting that you are decrying one "bubble" (currency markets), while cheerleading another (real estate). Do the words "intellectual consistency" mean anything to you? I won't completely discount your theory about how the dollar is getting speculated down as I hold a similar one in the oil market (actually, I suspect collusion, due to the way that the market moved, plunging like a cannonball in a swimming pool, instead of like a "tennis match", indicative of hitting some legitimate demand/support on the way down)


Regarding the currency market, Bush inherited a powderkeg in the form of the current account deficit.


https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html


In a nutshell, the ramification of this is that there are a whole hell of a lot more people worldwide who want to be "short" dollars (sell them, having received them in exchange for goods and services provided to us), than there are who want to be "long".

While dumbshit and company didn't cause this deficit (the CA), what he did do was with his bullshit war (which I personally believe was motivated by the desire to incapacitate a major supplier of oil, thus driving prices upwards....what a coincidence) was "light the fuse" on the powderkeg, by spending more money that we don't have. Deficits are financed by borrowing (in large part from foreign countries---I understand that China, and I'm not sure who else have large positions) in the form of debt securities-bonds, bills, notes, etc. These are considered in finance to be "risk free" investments due to the department of the treasuries capacity to print greenbacks to meet their contractual obligations. Doing so, has, and in the future will continue increase the number of greenbacks in circulation. What happens when the supply of something is increased? Econ 101...it's value goes down.


Staying with my "powderkeg" metaphor, what damage has been caused? I can't remember the term for it, but there has been something that has been considered to be absolute safety that the dollar will for ever and ever be strong.....that is the retention of greenbacks in the treasuries of foreign countries to as I recall stablize their own currencies. This was the insurance policy, word of god, thing that would never ever ever change......until very recently when it DID change......when some foreign governments (believe I recall China and Saudi Arabia. possibly others....don't hold me to that, and ) began DIVESTING themselves (in trading terms this is "short" dollars) of dollars and buying Euros in their place. Should they continue to do so, we could have some really serious problems on our hands.


"I guess libs dream of the glory Carter years, home to a prime interest rate of 21.5%, and 16% inflation...but oh boy that dollar was strong. Not to mention he's the father of terrorism. He booted out the Shah and installed Khomenei, creating the Islam nightmare we live we today. Plus, when he got bored, he back for a pro-dictator tour and negotiated giving nukes to N. Korea, and helped get Chavez elected."

The economic shit on here is nothing but a fucking (Rush Limbaugh's favorite tactic) strawman logical fallacy. Of course nobody wants 16% inflation. However, you seem to be indicating that a strong dollar isn't imperative to our national well being. Been to Wall Mart recently? Flip over a couple of items there and see where they are made......lots of China, Indonesia, Mexico.....I won't hazard a guess as to the percentage (but again I point to the current account deficit also). Let's run a little scenario here shall we? The dollar collapses, with it's value being cut in half against every other currency. De facto, all of the cost (shit I can't think of the word want-It's retail price minus profit margin) of the imported goods in WallMart (as a microcosm for the rest of the economy)double. Now probably due to price elasticity, WallMart couldn't just double their prices, but there would be an increase (Inflation up), and also a reduction in their profits as the gross margin would be down from the costs they are eating. Now what do corporations generally do when profits are down? Lay off people perhaps? Otherwise decrease expenses, which in turn negatively affects their suppliers...who in turn will also probably decrease expenses, and possibly lay people off..........

"He booted out the Shah and installed Khomenei, creating the Islam nightmare we live we today. "

I will defer comment about that to someone more knowledgable about history than I am.

"Plus, when he got bored, he back for a pro-dictator tour "

Does this line make sense to anyone?


and negotiated giving nukes to N. Korea

Didn't North Korea just DEVELOP their own nukes? I could be mistaken, but knowing relatively few historical facts I'm hazarding a guess that this is a LOOOONNNG stretch of a half truth.


, and helped get Chavez elected."

I understand that Hugo Chaves is very greatly beloved by the poor in his country. I do personally however have an issue with him. He referred to dubya as "The Devil"......myself, I prefer "The fucking ANTICHRIST"

"The reason the US debt is out of control is failed liberal entitlement policies. We've spent tens of trillions on SS, Medicare, and Welfare, and currently have an unfunded liability near $20 trillion. The debt on these failed socialist experiments is also a multi-trillion dollar disaster."


Without having any numbers at hand, I can tell you that Wellfare is a little nothing.....it's something like half to three quarters of ONE PERCENT of the federal budget. Now the others do get to be a decent little chunk. However, you idiots are nuts to think that we don't need these things. Want to get rid of Social Security? As a former financial advisor, I can assure you that most people aren't equipped to successfully invest their way into even a modest retirement (and I can elaborate on this subject if you like).....Medicare-I've got an 86 year old Grandmother who is hospitalized for various ailments a couple times a year. A private insurance policy on her, were one even able to be written would cost I'm sure north of 2K per month. So let me get this straight (making a minor presumption that you toe the party line)....you idiots want to protect the estates of the uber wealthy from taxation (even after a 50% bite, often heirs are more than "set for life".)after they die, but want the poor and middle class to eat up their saving (and de facto their estates) paying for private insurance coverage? Can you spell R E G R E S S I V E?


By the way, want to know what a big honking chunk of the deficit is? Ever hear of "corporate welfare"? The Boston Globe cited a figure 11 years ago (Most probably having a had a congress full of corrupt republicans in power in the interm, it's probably worse now) of 150 Billion dollars worth,. Here is a quote:

Every year, an estimated $150 billion - in the form of direct federal subsidies and tax breaks that specifically benefit businesses - is funneled to American companies. Critics call it ``corporate welfare.''

The $150 billion for corporate subsidies and tax benefits eclipses the annual budget deficit of $130 billion. It's more than the $145 billion paid out annually for the core programs of the social welfare state: Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), student aid, housing, food and nutrition, and all direct public assistance (excluding Social Security and medical care). "

http://www.corporations.org/welfare/globe2.html


So.......anything else you would like to talk about?


B9k

CBGBConnisur
09-30-07, 23:44
US Debt has absolutely nothing to do with social policies, its largely American consumerism that has turned the US into the biggest creditor nation in history. Americans are going to soon wake up the fact that they are going to spend their lives paying off debt. Especially the young generation who are neck deep in student loan debt are going to become the first generation who will be worse off than their parents. Its not uncommon for today's young people to spend over 100K to work in a job that might pay 30 to 40k a year. The other issue is that much of our debt is financed by foreigners, oil producing nations and China have been able to effectively lend us money by buying US Treasuries, and now with the dollar falling and an alternative investment vehicle, the Euro, that ability to finance endless debt is going to end. The economic ease which we Americans have been blessed with over the last six decades is not going to last much longer.

Dodger Bulldog
10-01-07, 01:41
hi dogs - i am sorry for you and i pitty you.

what you write here is for sure is meanwhile a widely accepted opinion in the us.please, not so fast, carlos. don't think for a minute that all of the vitriol dogs spews represents the views of most americans.

sure, there are plenty of people who are unable to apply critical analysis and must have the administration, fox news, and rush limbaugh, and anne coulter, et al, to do all of their thinking for them.

there are an awful lot of ugly americans, and many of the rest of us are embarrassed by them. but they remain in the minority.

please remember that it is not even disputed that mr. bush received fewer votes than his opponent in 2000. and it is extremely likely that the counting was less than forthright in 2004.

there is a major battle going on within america for the soul of this nation. the right wing learned that it benefits them in elections to manipulate the feeble minded by dividing people over bogus issues such as gay rights, religious litmus tests on abortion, and racist rants over immigration.

add in the fear mongering whipped up with periodic references to 9-11 and terrorism, and you can see that the real economic and global issues have barely had a hearing in recent elections here.

our forefathers, inspired by the french, believed in the free marketplace of ideas and wrote it into the first amendment to our constitution.

they realized that the best way to deal with the inane ranting of those like dogs is to expose them to the largest amount of people possible, confident that enough people will eventually reject such nonsense.

it is a slow process, but it is effective. for example, no politician any longer dares to declare "segregation forever" in this country. it has been banished from the lexicon of political speech in this country through the enlightenment of the majority.

the conservatives are so rabid at this time because slowly but surely they are losing the culture wars in america.

instead it is the silence surrounding the most critical issues that is the real problem.

there is very little discourse on diverting our foreign policy establishment and military machine from supporting the corporate interests which have created the very "monsters" that you cited to temporarily serve their interests.

in the meantime, these businesses influence our government to invade the countries whose leaders choose not to play ball with the corporate masters.

naturally, when our government supports the ovethrow of chavez by coup, we are going to make a permanent enemy out of him. it amazes me that the conservatives just can't get their mind around that concept.

these corporate forces are so powerful that i don't know if they will ever be reigned in. i don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, anyway.

finally, let me also say that i have had the privilege to visit europe on a couple of occasions. i was pleased that the people there were easily able to discern and separate the issues surrounding our government from the essence of the american people.

everyone there treated me wonderfully!

db

Jan 156
10-28-07, 12:31
There is very little discourse on diverting our foreign policy establishment and military machine from supporting the corporate interests . . .

In the meantime, these businesses influence our government to invade the countries whose leaders choose not to play ball with the corporate masters.

Naturally, when our government supports the ovethrow of Chavez by coup, we are going to make a permanent enemy out of him. It amazes me that the conservatives just can't get their mind around that concept.

These corporate forces are so powerful that I don't know if they will ever be reigned in. I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, anyway.

Finally, let me also say that I have had the privilege to visit Europe on a couple of occasions. I was pleased that the people there were easily able to discern and separate the issues surrounding our government from the essence of the American people.

Everyone there treated me wonderfully!

DB

Hi Dodger. Well put.

There's a reasonably good article in The Economist today on this point. On the one hand there is the argument about whether America should be engaging in 'smallish wars of choice' at all. But it points out that the real choice for the military planners is in coping with the *likely*, not to restrict democratically elected politicians' options.

America is likely to keep getting involved in such foreign involvements. The 'Chavez coup' possibility you mention, in the language of most planners, merely means that more resources need to be devoted to possible guerrilla actions ('men on the ground') to counter the new enemies of disaffected people, as opposed to high-tech development and deployment (as used in conventional wars). This is similar to the post-invasion Iraq strategy - if the righteous occupation has pushed thousands of people into the cohorts of the terrorists, then more has to be done to combat the additional terrorists in terms of manpower and intelligence, not to avoid creating the situation in the first place.

Avoiding war and sales of arms means massive loss of revenue. Which is maybe one of the reasons there is so little planning for it. (Using a similar type of circular logic, if military options are costly on the economy, then the financial rewards need to be made even greater.) Military options, like 'diplomacy', are geared to financial benefits. The military ones simply have added financial benefits.

I think most Europeans are aware that most (or the large contingent of) Americans don't support Bush. The U.S. is simply stuck with him. Maybe we can just hope he doesn't find a way in his remaining term to start world war three. Some of the European generosity of spirit may in part be the simmering awareness that we may (especially Brits) have to apologise for our own government when we go abroad to certain politically aware developing countries.

Beavis
10-28-07, 15:23
Well said, even though my employment revolves around the oil industry and I have made the most money I have ever made I still cannot force myself to support this spineless moron (Bush). The only consulation we have at the moment is to hang on until he gets out. But, if we are involved in a major war will the election still be held? This could be the foundation for his proposal to invade Iran. That way the crook and Mr. Halliburton will be able to add a few more billion dollars to the oil cartel money before he gets out.

Ocean Traveler
10-29-07, 01:22
Chavez ran on national health care and nationalized the oil companies.

That he is a dictator there is no doubt.

Clinton is running on national health care and wants to sieze the profits of the oil companies (nationalizing).

Is it any wonder the same lib nuts who support Cavez support Clinton?

Wait let me guess, you belive in Global Warming.

DJ FourMoney
10-29-07, 04:30
As a German all the american citizens I ask - no one has elected Mr.Bush.
In between I ask myself who has elected the president - only hillbillies and rednecks?
And about a "little war" in Venezuela.

I remember when the crew of an american warship informed Mr.Bush "mission completed".
What a lie!
The USA have their new Vietnam in Irak already, and now another Vietnam in the backyard of the US?
The US even didnt suceed in little Haiti - what a disgrace - but what can you expect from a cowardish president who never served in the miltiary?
The hypocrisy of the population of the US is that Monica Lewinsky made more opponents to the president than thousands of dead soldiers in Irak nowadays!
War seems to be better than a BJ.
Are the majority of the US poulation war mongers?
Its ridiculous.
W.B.

I don't think you'll ever run into somebody that is able to travel internationally supports Bush.

You would be shocked how many people are asleep at the wheel in this country.

They are easily fooled, easily hoodwinked!

It helps if Fox News, Bill O'Reily et al wordsmith everything to for those easily fooled (many of them in the hills of the Eastern US and Deep South). That ends up being many, many people. Combine that with shenanigans by the Republican party and you have what you have currently.

Many of us don't like it but feel powerless to stop it currently. We elected a majority Democratic Congress and what's happening? Resolutions to stop Move-on.org and beat the drum for starting war with Iran. Not passing S chip is one thing, but not stopping the veto by Bush is inexcusable.

So many of us are reaching and asking for Gore to re-run again and bullshiet like that...

The candidates that make any sense will not gain enough traction to get elected (Ron Paul and Dennis Kusinisch) we'll end up with either Hilary, or Edwards I would think and that would actually be an improvement on all fronts.

I am about ready to jump ship. My father's death has given me the income to actually consider such a move.

Some seem to think an Iran attack won't happen, I think its about 50/50 now... And the rhetoric is the same, just the words changed around a bit.

CBGBConnisur
10-31-07, 18:03
The US is going to get less involved in foreign affairs in the coming decades, its economic presence is not as dominating as it used to be, there are other big economic players on the horizon. Part of the reason why the US was able to interfere in the affairs of smaller countries was its unchallenged economic leverage. Chavez is cooing Europe right now and the EU is buying favors worldwide. China is moving into Africa to get a hold of the continent's resources. India will be doing the same in another 20 years or so.

Don't get confused, Europeans are not out for the good of the common man, the EU is an expansionist Imperialist organization.

DJ FourMoney
11-01-07, 08:55
The US is going to get less involved in foreign affairs in the coming decades, its economic presence is not as dominating as it used to be, there are other big economic players on the horizon. Part of the reason why the US was able to interfere in the affairs of smaller countries was its unchallenged economic leverage. Chavez is cooing Europe right now and the EU is buying favors worldwide. China is moving into Africa to get a hold of the continent's resources. India will be doing the same in another 20 years or so.

Don't get confused, Europeans are not out for the good of the common man, the EU is an expansionist Imperialist organization.

That may well be true, however just like the debate in global warming, not everybody is signaling the the death of the US as a economic and social powerhouse even in the next 50-100 years.

Most of it is the fact that China has way too many uneducated and unskilled labor. The story is the same with India. You really think these nations with large populations are all of a sudden going to leapfrog the US???

To be honest sooner or later the changes that are needed to keep America on top will be made. The last time the Republican party was in power during a war (WWI), we got The Great Depression. When policy was changed by FDR, the middle class exploded and kept progressive presidents in POWER despite being killed off (Kennedy).

When we didn't have strong progressive candidates (Not everything Nixon did was BAD, but....) something happen negatively and because of that we didn't get any real change until Carter. But as soon as the hostages were released and Regan put into office, he being apart of the New American Century was going to finally put their "new ideas" to work, we got Reganomics and the largest spending on our military in our history.

Granted we are using that first in Kuwait and now in Iraq/Afghanistan, but last I heard until new bullets/guns were made we were using ammo and guns from Vietnam now on year 4 in Iraq/Afghanistan.

Still 30% agrees with the war, believes Saddam had something to do with 9/11 and they are still making that connection whenever they can in the White House.

The other 70% are ready for real change where its needed - HERE

All we have to do is right the ship and we'll dominate because unlike those places that are usually mentioned as the next "power" in the world do not have the diversity which is our strength.

The EU has in-fighting, different cultures and welfare to other countries. It will take a LONG time and they'll need the UK on board to even THINK about replacing the US as a dominating force.

CBGBConnisur
11-07-07, 15:47
That may well be true, however just like the debate in global warming, not everybody is signaling the the death of the US as a economic and social powerhouse even in the next 50-100 years.

Most of it is the fact that China has way too many uneducated and unskilled labor. The story is the same with India. You really think these nations with large populations are all of a sudden going to leapfrog the US???

To be honest sooner or later the changes that are needed to keep America on top will be made. The last time the Republican party was in power during a war (WWI), we got The Great Depression. When policy was changed by FDR, the middle class exploded and kept progressive presidents in POWER despite being killed off (Kennedy).

When we didn't have strong progressive candidates (Not everything Nixon did was BAD, but....) something happen negatively and because of that we didn't get any real change until Carter. But as soon as the hostages were released and Regan put into office, he being apart of the New American Century was going to finally put their "new ideas" to work, we got Reganomics and the largest spending on our military in our history.

Granted we are using that first in Kuwait and now in Iraq/Afghanistan, but last I heard until new bullets/guns were made we were using ammo and guns from Vietnam now on year 4 in Iraq/Afghanistan.

Still 30% agrees with the war, believes Saddam had something to do with 9/11 and they are still making that connection whenever they can in the White House.

The other 70% are ready for real change where its needed - HERE

All we have to do is right the ship and we'll dominate because unlike those places that are usually mentioned as the next "power" in the world do not have the diversity which is our strength.

The EU has in-fighting, different cultures and welfare to other countries. It will take a LONG time and they'll need the UK on board to even THINK about replacing the US as a dominating force.

Asian countries have been dominant many times in history, and they had large uneducated populations. If you really think of it, many Americans are left out in the cold compared to the rich and famous. This is nothing new. China is not a democracy, its a police state and one that works really well.

The EU infighting is minimal, they do not need the UK, in fact, without the UK, European integration would have occurred much sooner. Continental Europeans see the UK as agent of the US like Asians see Japan in the same way, although the UK is much closer with the US while Japan is moving away from America back towards Asia.

The Dollar is in its sick phase not only because of politics but because of constant trade deficits and massive debts held by individual Americans and the government. Unfortunately, we depend upon the rest of the planet to help finance this debt but now many countries do not want to do this. Bush has completely tarnished America's image for a long time. The Dollar is also the basis of much of America's influence around the globe which is diminishing rapidly.

One funny example of how the Dollar has lost its status is Gisele Bundchen, she refuses to paid in US Dollars and only takes contracts in Euros. Her business manager says its because of "dollar uncertainty".

Comparing the Vietnam Era to today is irrelevant, the USA was far more powerful than any other country or bloc during that time despite the fact that the economy in absolute terms was weak in those days. These days the world is more multipolar, it was relatively easy for the US to pull out of Vietnam and come back strong, because there was far more pro US sentiment in those days as the US was a hedge against the Soviets.

Opebo
11-07-07, 17:15
Comparing the Vietnam Era to today is irrelevant, the USA was far more powerful than any other country or bloc during that time despite the fact that the economy in absolute terms was weak in those days.

The economy throughout the world, but particularly in the US, was FAR better in absolute terms during the Vietnam era than it is today, CBGB.

Leeuwen
11-07-07, 22:27
Most of it is the fact that China has way too many uneducated and unskilled labor. The story is the same with India. You really think these nations with large populations are all of a sudden going to leapfrog the US???
China'a rampant development can't be ignored, neither India's. Both have a well educated ambitious middle class of approx. 200 million. Entire population of the USA is 300 millions (EU 460 millions).
Especially China is eager to become an economic, strategic and political powerhouse. Goals like sending manned mission to the moon in 15 years (first Chinese lunar probe was launched two weeks ago), building world's largest dam (completed), sustained growth etc.
I would also be cautious about dismissing India, which is well known for its highly skilled IT sector. Current development in India allows many Indian engineers to stay there, and still make relatively good money. And this is only the beginning. Did you know that western corporations expand mostly in East and not home in EU or N. America?


To be honest sooner or later the changes that are needed to keep America on top will be made. The last time the Republican party was in power during a war (WWI), we got The Great Depression. When policy was changed by FDR, the middle class exploded and kept progressive presidents in POWER despite being killed off (Kennedy).
What makes you think American decision makers prefer to wait? And why not rather sooner than later?
Truth is that old concepts can't be applied to new world order. No changes are made because your leaders either can't agree on what to do, or don't have a fix-it-all solution. Simple as that.

Main problems, roughly: A comfortable middle class living beyond its means, expensive foreign policy (interventions overseas), and competition from emerging markets (cheap import from China and India).
How do you tell your voters, to work more for less?
How do you get out of Iraq and Afghanistan without losing your face?
How do you make China to devalue its currency (which is essential for the USA)?
How do you save the U.S dollar from becoming a "peso"?


When we didn't have strong progressive candidates (Not everything Nixon did was BAD, but....) something happen negatively and because of that we didn't get any real change until Carter.
And who are these "strong progressive candidates" today? Hillary, Obama, or the other camp, busy arguing over who's more conservative than just conservative?



All we have to do is right the ship and we'll dominate because unlike those places that are usually mentioned as the next "power" in the world do not have the diversity which is our strength.

The EU has in-fighting, different cultures and welfare to other countries. It will take a LONG time and they'll need the UK on board to even THINK about replacing the US as a dominating force.
You have to make up your mind on diversity. Either it's a strenght or weakness, you can't have both. EU is very diversified, but to a lesser extent than the USA, in my opinion.
India not diversified? The constitution grants official status to 22 languages, just an example.
Also, if we assume diversity being such a strength, then why have all American presidents been white Anglo-Saxon Protestant Christian males, with Kennedy as the only 'deviant' (Catholic)?

Isn't it funny how you express scepticism towards EU, and simultaneously have unproportional respect for the UK? This reminds me of the pre-Euro era, when basically nobody in the USA believed in EU integration nor euro currency. It didn't take long to drastically change people's mind, did it?

Besides, wouldn't it be wise to elaborate on why EU wouldn't be able to bring integration process further without the UK, instead of bringing totally unsupported (and incorrect) statements into the debate?
Everyone, both in corporate and political world, knows that you have to grow and merge to get bigger and stronger. Small nations simply don't count, and the UK leaders know it. What credible altervatives are there for the UK? Please, tell me.

Brits, sorry, the English, are the most EU sceptic nation among EU members and it's beyond my imagination why they haven't been kicked out yet. Either you want to build the organization you are member of, or you step aside. Well, here comes the tricky part.

On one hand you have a population which is obsessed with Germany (they bombed London and are #1 in EU, what?!) and France (perpetual rival and best mate with Germany), and on the other you are obliged to defend democracy and let people have their say. Today, if the government would let people vote, they most likely wouldn't vote in favour of EU membership, euro currency or whatever, just for the sake of it - But who knows, once you actually stand there and decide your own future. Tony Blair used tricks (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,2058758,00.html) to avoid referendum and today Gordon Brown is doing everything he can (http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9726707), not to let people have their say. God forbid, the mob could vote in "wrong" direction, and we (the UK government) don't want this to happend, do we? After all, we do 70% of our trade with EU... just to start with...

Bango Cheito
11-07-07, 22:54
The biggest problem in the US is IMO the car culture. That's what causes the enormous amounts of waste and inefficiency which is preventing us from competing in a global marketplace. It also right now keeps us face down sucking on the oil titty and we can't budge.

DJ FourMoney
11-08-07, 02:01
The biggest problem in the US is IMO the car culture. That's what causes the enormous amounts of waste and inefficiency which is preventing us from competing in a global marketplace. It also right now keeps us face down sucking on the oil titty and we can't budge.

Ignore BC constant beating of the "I hate cars" drum. He isn't a car guy could never understand. It fine he doesn't have one, there others like YOU in the US which is fine, ride your bikes I don't care I don't drive in the bike lane you have nothing to worry about.

There is movement and people want change. Its hard to do when largely the mass media isn't covering this coming change.

Leu -

I agree with your comments and yes I was making general statements and using opinion, I have not done of ton of research.

Yes some of our leaders cannot agree on many infrastructure policies but the fact remains that Carter had us on a road to oil independence and Regan took down the solar panels off the White House and Bush Sr had them destroyed.

Bushies are connected to big oil, duh they are big oil. So as BC would like to say they rather have us sucking on the oil titty, it ensures maximum profit with light crude reaching almost $100 a barrel.

I believe major change will happen before we hit rock bottom. Clinton and Obama may be leading opinion polls but at the grassroots level its a different tune. Myself I am about to endorse Edwards but mostly because he has a better chance than Kucinich has at getting the nomination.

Yes Obama and Hilary seem to be Republican "Light" as the term goes. As they included HMO's in their health care reform plans (so has Edwards for that matter) but what really needs to happen is campaign reform which will help get the right people into the house ans senate and in-turn return us to how the forefathers wanted this country to run with a system of checks and balances. Not PERFECT but when it runs right its better than anybody else's idea.

How do you tell your voters, to work more for less?

Work more for less? I work less and make about the same...

Give me free health care and readjust the tax system pre-Regan era and you'll solve most of that question. Both could happen...

How do you get out of Iraq and Afghanistan without losing your face?

Who's worry about saving face? We already have "egg" on out faces. The fact is we Won the war part, the occupation is what is gone horribly wrong.

Just pull out and let them destroy themselves if that's what they want...Its not like the middle east is ever going to be tourist friendly area anyway.

How do you make China to devalue its currency (which is essential for the USA)?

I am not an economist however as I understand it, we had a system of tarfits and such for 100 years that protected our markets until largely the Republicans looking out for their big business buddies wanted to go into cheaper labor, allow illegals into the job market and weaken US unionized labor. Well 30 years later and the only Union left with any teeth is the UAW. I worked for 2 companies that strongly discourage you to NOT join Unions or talk to Union reps or you'll loose your job on the spot.

Change a few things around and get a handle on immigration and the dollar would automatically be stronger than China's currency devaluing it instantly. Surprise however is that no matter how much stuff Walmart sells, the stuff coming out of China is largely JUNK, because companies are interested in maximum profit along with having super cheap labor.

How do you save the U.S dollar from becoming a "peso"?

Won't happen, many Americans have had it up to _____ with Mexicans and other groups form Central America. Prosecute the companies that hire these people and part of your problem is solved. Socially I don't have an answer to the many jobs MANY Americans won't do regardless of the money involved. There are image stigmas attached to alot of these careers and for men many women won't accept being married to -

Factory Worker
Shuttle Bus Driver
Long Haul Truck Driver
Farm Worker
Food Plant Production Worker

How many jobs is that in the US??? and I only listed a couple of them.

I was a Long Haul Trucker, Oh yeah I had to beat women off me, are you kidding???

As long as they feel the need to brag about the career of their husbands, the neighborhoods they live in and the cars they drive, it will force many men to shun such employment. I was listening to a radio show on Sirius last Saturday about this subject and he was like I have to hire illegals because I can't get the crank users to stop using long enough to pass a drug test and on top of that, many people won't work graveyard shifts and often back out when he needs people and this is Montana, not Los Angeles!

To be honest I am not worried about that very much because if he was paying $50,000 a year to drive a Shuttle to the Airport, I am not living in Montana to work for him.

I have standards!

Bango Cheito
11-08-07, 06:01
Cars are the MAJOR part of the problem but the problem in and of itself is waste and inefficiency. Cars are INCREDIBLY wasteful and the US and Canada are just about the only countries on Earth who abuse them to such an extent that we do. It is IMPOSSIBLE for any society to have the car as the major mode of transportation and be able to sustain it over the long term. It just uses too goddamn much energy. Takes up too much space. Causes too much traffic and accidents. Period. Even if cars ran on air they'd be a dumb idea as personal transport, especially in big cities where traffic can easily get unbearable.

But for some other examples, look at the way we waste paper products. And Americans have the fucking NERVE to ***** about in other countries when they get a hot dog and are handed two napkins instead of the NOVEL's worth that everybody takes.

But don't let me stop there, since I can only think about cars. Do you realize how much energy we waste by washing our clothes in hot water and taking hot showers? Both of these are under most normal circumstances completely necessary and wasteful and maybe even UNHEALTHY. People get all sorts of diseases from the shit that breeds in hot water tanks, not to mention the damage done to your skin, immune system etc. Washing clothes in hot water shortens their life exponentially. Once again, this is almost exclusively and American/Canadian phenomenon. Almost ALL the rest of the world gets by with cold water, perhaps they have a little heater that will warm the water up a little for taking a shower.

I could also get started on agribusiness and the food supply but that would be a rant that could go on for days on end almost.

If and when a government is willing to tackle THESE problems, America will start to get better again, and start experiencing REAL growth instead of just fake credit-based "growth" financed by the Japanese and Chinese and Arabs. Until then we will continue to slide. I think many countries will have surpassed us as world powers by the time we finally wake the fuck up.

And I havent even touched the more pressing issues of erosion of civil liberties etc.

DJ FourMoney
11-08-07, 09:11
Cars are the MAJOR part of the problem but the problem in and of itself is waste and inefficiency. Cars are INCREDIBLY wasteful and the US and Canada are just about the only countries on Earth who abuse them to such an extent that we do. It is IMPOSSIBLE for any society to have the car as the major mode of transportation and be able to sustain it over the long term. It just uses too goddamn much energy. Takes up too much space. Causes too much traffic and accidents. Period. Even if cars ran on air they'd be a dumb idea as personal transport, especially in big cities where traffic can easily get unbearable.

But for some other examples, look at the way we waste paper products. And Americans have the fucking NERVE to ***** about in other countries when they get a hot dog and are handed two napkins instead of the NOVEL's worth that everybody takes.

But don't let me stop there, since I can only think about cars. Do you realize how much energy we waste by washing our clothes in hot water and taking hot showers? Both of these are under most normal circumstances completely necessary and wasteful and maybe even UNHEALTHY. People get all sorts of diseases from the shit that breeds in hot water tanks, not to mention the damage done to your skin, immune system etc. Washing clothes in hot water shortens their life exponentially. Once again, this is almost exclusively and American/Canadian phenomenon. Almost ALL the rest of the world gets by with cold water, perhaps they have a little heater that will warm the water up a little for taking a shower.

I could also get started on agribusiness and the food supply but that would be a rant that could go on for days on end almost.

If and when a government is willing to tackle THESE problems, America will start to get better again, and start experiencing REAL growth instead of just fake credit-based "growth" financed by the Japanese and Chinese and Arabs. Until then we will continue to slide. I think many countries will have surpassed us as world powers by the time we finally wake the fuck up.

And I havent even touched the more pressing issues of erosion of civil liberties etc.

I agree with you on the bases that we have REAL problems.

Cars are a big issue, however you can change what the cars run on, releasing us from outsourcing our oil reserves and E85 is cleaner burning and made locally. Cellulosic Ethanol is part of a overall answer, along with Solar, renewable energies, etc, etc.

I would run my own car on E85 and I already have the forms and approval from the Feds to make my own. However I can't just setup boilers and shhh at the house just yet. When I can and when I switch all the cars at home to run on E85 I am activity doing my part and I will have fun at the same time. I will re-tune all the cars to run on E85 or even E100 and they'll make more power and get back some of the energy lost which will improve mileage. It will make my car faster because its turbocharged, I can run more boost :)

I want to build a house that runs on 90% Solar power and the rest cheap for the west coast Natural Gas and there are affordable ways to do this and not pay $400,000 for a shack in South Central LA like I saw on "Flip That House" on TLC yesterday. My option would be CHEAP if DONE CORRECTLY and cost less overall.

I support public transportation and would use it, if we had anything that looked like London's Underground or Germany's Die Bahn system.

So don't think I just wanna pollute and continue down the same path because its the most convenient. I can blend my lifestyle with conservation without turning my life upside-down.

On the Political side, all I can really do is vote and bug my local rep. When people change how things are run in Washington then my single vote will carry more weight than it does now.

Yes I am concerned about my civil liberties and a member of several newsgroups that keep track of things.

Oh well, I just like my car and I am not like the many other people that should use public transportation but don't. In reality those people really don't need a car. My sister is doing just fine without one in New York....

CBGBConnisur
11-08-07, 15:58
The US Dollar is falling because of Mexican immigrants??? Give me a break, the Dollar is falling because of the excessive amount of debt that individual Americans and the government have created over the past 30 years. It also has to do with America spending more than they produce. If you wanted to single out a country for the Dollar's fall, look at China, they have the largest reserves of US dollars on the planet, and are slowly selling them off. Of course if they dumped it the dollar would collapse and they would screw themselves, but they are slowly getting out of the dollar and diversifying, as are all the OPEC countries.

India and China now produce more scientists and engineers than the US, even in the US the smartest students at the universities often come from Asian backgrounds. Many of these international students often get asked to go home once they finish, so their education and training benefit their home countries instead of the US. Every MAJOR US AND EUROPEAN CORPORATION has substantial operations in both countries.

The USA will still be a well off country if it plays its cards well but global competition is heating up.

The UK is the most anti EU nation, its an impediment to the EU more than a benefit. If it wasn't for the UK, the EU would have been integrated much sooner.

DJ FourMoney
11-10-07, 11:58
The US Dollar is falling because of Mexican immigrants??? Give me a break, the Dollar is falling because of the excessive amount of debt that individual Americans and the government have created over the past 30 years. It also has to do with America spending more than they produce. If you wanted to single out a country for the Dollar's fall, look at China, they have the largest reserves of US dollars on the planet, and are slowly selling them off. Of course if they dumped it the dollar would collapse and they would screw themselves, but they are slowly getting out of the dollar and diversifying, as are all the OPEC countries.

India and China now produce more scientists and engineers than the US, even in the US the smartest students at the universities often come from Asian backgrounds. Many of these international students often get asked to go home once they finish, so their education and training benefit their home countries instead of the US. Every MAJOR US AND EUROPEAN CORPORATION has substantial operations in both countries.

The USA will still be a well off country if it plays its cards well but global competition is heating up.

The UK is the most anti EU nation, its an impediment to the EU more than a benefit. If it wasn't for the UK, the EU would have been integrated much sooner.

Put as back to pre-Regan Taxes

Give Us Univerisal Health Care

Put us back on the renewable energy path that Carter put us on in 1980

Real Election Reform

Put Progressives in Power

99% of the problems caused by the Republican party in the last 30 years would put as right back to where we were as the Number 1 Nation in the World.

We might not ever return to the biggest exporter of goods, but several things made in America are still the best products in the world. Heath Care for everybody will allow our companies to compete globally at the same level other industrial countries compete at.

Its not too late to turn things around and Mexico is not our problem. Its how Mexicans run their country. Its small and medium sized businesses hiring known illegal workers knowing they will work for less. As I said before I don't know what to say about the jobs that many Americans won't take because they are not "status" jobs or bite into their "personal" time too much. Documented workers will take those jobs, but you can't allow people to cross the broader knowing they can get a job, which is why so many come cross to start with.

All of our problems are solvable, we just have to want to solve them.

Opebo
11-10-07, 17:13
All of our problems are solvable, we just have to want to solve them.

Hear Hear, DJ.

But it won't be easy - last time it took a Depression and a LOT of dead commoners before the rulers allowed even a tiny move to the left in america. Those who own us will not give up that control without a fight.

Bango Cheito
11-10-07, 18:01
ANY nation could be the #1 nation on Earth if it just had the will to be so. The question is do we really WANT to change? We have become entrenched in our old ways. I'd like to THINK we can get our shit together soon before there are big consequences but we haven't done a damn thing in the right direction in the past 10 years.

If you want the immigrants to go away, GRANT AMNESTY. You'd lose half a million illegals from this country overnight. I can guarantee that, I'd bet my life on it. Many aren't doing well here and only stay because of fear of burning their bridges.

DJ FourMoney
11-12-07, 06:19
ANY nation could be the #1 nation on Earth if it just had the will to be so. The question is do we really WANT to change? We have become entrenched in our old ways. I'd like to THINK we can get our shit together soon before there are big consequences but we haven't done a damn thing in the right direction in the past 10 years.

If you want the immigrants to go away, GRANT AMNESTY. You'd lose half a million illegals from this country overnight. I can guarantee that, I'd bet my life on it. Many aren't doing well here and only stay because of fear of burning their bridges.

We can do it Bango!

Just don't let the media sell you the bill of goods known as Hilary Clinton or OBama. Sure it would be NICE to have a Woman or a Black president, but not these two and not Obama until he won't waffle when it suits him.

Elect Cindy Sheehan, she'll be much better as House Speaker than Nancy Pelosi for example. That's putting a Progressive in place of a corp bought Democrat.

Any Dem that voted to give more money for the war deserves to loose his or her seat! Pelosi for not calling for Cheney's and Bush's head needs to come back home so we can tar and feather her!

I demand CHANGE, 52% of Americans demand CHANGE. It starts with somebody growing BALLS and impeach these assholes.

I thought majority ruled????

52% is MAJORITY, hello!

If I can't have Space Kaddet Dennis Kucinich, then I'll take Corp America's Worst Nightmare - John Edwards

Bango Cheito
11-12-07, 19:20
Majority has NEVER ruled here. This is a republican democracy, in some ways that is very fortunate, because otherwise the Civil Rights Act would never have passed and your black ass would still be living under Jim Crow!

At any rate you could poll and poll till you're blue in the face, every poll shows different results. In a country of 300 million people the 'will of the people' on complex issues like the war is pretty ambiguous, not to mention it has been known to shift based on what the media is telling them.

I don't think Joe Q. Average has the brains OR the balls to do what is necessary to turn this country around either. Which is why we have a republican democracy to begin with. Only a tiny minority of people have the capacity or the inclination to even begin to see the big picture. And unfortunately for us, it looks like none of those people are anywhere near the spheres of power in this country!!

CBGBConnisur
11-15-07, 17:32
Get real, the USA is heading into history's dustbin, the times of prosperity are coming to an end. A new era is approaching, America's unquestioned economic dominance is already in question with a weakening dollar and stronger growth in Europe and Asia. When I was in the States, I was paying rent, in debt. I live in Australia where I am a homeowner and self employed, the global economy has changed the way things are done, you don't need to live in the USA to prosper any more.

The immigrant situation in the USA is not roses and wine, not by any stretch of the imagination. I knew people who were prospering in their home countries who wound up in the poorhouse in the USA. I recall one family from the UK, the wife had to sell jewelry to buy food for the kids because her husband's business was failing.

The healthcare industry is a sure fire way to make a living in the US but other industries are suffering.

DJ FourMoney
11-15-07, 21:22
Get real, the USA is heading into history's dustbin, the times of prosperity are coming to an end. A new era is approaching, America's unquestioned economic dominance is already in question with a weakening dollar and stronger growth in Europe and Asia. When I was in the States, I was paying rent, in debt. I live in Australia where I am a homeowner and self employed, the global economy has changed the way things are done, you don't need to live in the USA to prosper any more.

The immigrant situation in the USA is not roses and wine, not by any stretch of the imagination. I knew people who were prospering in their home countries who wound up in the poorhouse in the USA. I recall one family from the UK, the wife had to sell jewelry to buy food for the kids because her husband's business was failing.

The healthcare industry is a sure fire way to make a living in the US but other industries are suffering.

At times I agree that all is lost and there is no hope in improving.

I just believe that we can keep the idiots at bay for at least a little while...

CBGBConnisur
11-19-07, 15:59
The Government's response to Katrina two years ago is the biggest example of its indifference to the everyday American. 800,000 people wound up homeless overnight and the government largely turned their backs to them, this happens in the richest country in the world? And I am sure race played a role in it. Contrast this with the California wildfires that affected mostly rich communities.

Travel69
01-21-08, 17:38
ANY nation could be the #1 nation on Earth if it just had the will to be so. The question is do we really WANT to change? We have become entrenched in our old ways. I'd like to THINK we can get our shit together soon before there are big consequences but we haven't done a damn thing in the right direction in the past 10 years.

If you want the immigrants to go away, GRANT AMNESTY. You'd lose half a million illegals from this country overnight. I can guarantee that, I'd bet my life on it. Many aren't doing well here and only stay because of fear of burning their bridges.Most illegal will not stay here if you give them amnesty. American immigration system assume every visitor want to stay in usa permentantly and visitor must prove that he or she do not immgration intent. Practically, it is no chance to get a visa for normal people. I am sure people who want get visa for his girl friend get frustrated experience. Thus mexican who want work some month in US and return home has to come illegal and stay here forever. American man has harder time to bring his girl friend to visit here comparing to european country. American man should lobby congress that every woman under 35 should come US without visa and than amreican woman has to change her ***** atitude.

DJ FourMoney
01-27-08, 08:36
Most illegal will not stay here if you give them amnesty. American immigration system assume every visitor want to stay in usa permentantly and visitor must prove that he or she do not immgration intent. Practically, it is no chance to get a visa for normal people. I am sure people who want get visa for his girl friend get frustrated experience. Thus mexican who want work some month in US and return home has to come illegal and stay here forever. American man has harder time to bring his girl friend to visit here comparing to european country. American man should lobby congress that every woman under 35 should come US without visa and than amreican woman has to change her ***** atitude.

Here, Here!

Some competition would do them some good, but ain't that a rant for the American Women board? lol

I have run into a few FSU girls that think the US has regressed enough for them to give second thoughts to relocating here and I don't blame them.

Stories of them working shiety jobs I am sure don't help....

According to our Popularity Contest the "Status Que" candidates finished 1st and 2nd again, after Kuinich quit, Edwards is the next man to get marginalized by the media. That is unless you seek out Left leaning channels on the net and PBS....

I am hoping for a brokered convention, that is where we need to change the discussion on the issues that mater most...

CBGBConnisur
01-27-08, 20:28
Giuliani's campaign is totally getting trashed, it will probably be McCain versus Obama or Clinton this November. I think the Democrats have a big advantage, a lot of people just do not want to see another George W in the White House. The next ten to fifteen years are going to see an erosion of US influence around the world, and a more multipolar planet, I think the US will still be a well off country but the dominant position that we enjoy will be a thing of the past, the US will have serious competition economically and eventually militarily as well, since military power follows economic strength. The EU, China, and India are coming on strong as potential Superpower competitors. The EU could definitely become one, if Britain leaves or gets kicked out of the EU, it has been the block to European integration since the end of the last World War. China is on its way, India is still has a very long road to trek but will become a major player in the world in our lifetimes.

As long as Giuliani does not become president, I think things should be okay, at least we Americans will be able to go to strip clubs and buy hot dogs from carts, something that was taken away from New Yorkers when he was mayor.

A lot of those EE girls would rather live in the EU, even though immigration is tight on the continent it is nowhere near as anti-immigrant as the US these days. The Euro continues to gain strength as a currency, and it will come to the point where it surpasses the US Dollar as the currency of choice around the planet.

Doctor_Skank
01-27-08, 20:48
Giuliani's campaign is totally getting trashed, it will probably be McCain versus Obama or Clinton this November.
My boy Ron Paul probably doesn't stand a chance either. He's too smart, sensible and realistic to be president.

Either way it goes, McCain, Clinton or Obama, we seem to be in for another rough 4 years.

Clandestine782
01-28-08, 00:09
Giuliani's campaign is totally getting trashed, it will probably be McCain versus Obama or Clinton this November. I think the Democrats have a big advantage, a lot of people just do not want to see another George W in the White House. The next ten to fifteen years are going to see an erosion of US influence around the world, and a more multipolar planet, I think the US will still be a well off country but the dominant position that we enjoy will be a thing of the past, the US will have serious competition economically and eventually militarily as well, since military power follows economic strength. The EU, China, and India are coming on strong as potential Superpower competitors. The EU could definitely become one, if Britain leaves or gets kicked out of the EU, it has been the block to European integration since the end of the last World War. China is on its way, India is still has a very long road to trek but will become a major player in the world in our lifetimes.

As long as Giuliani does not become president, I think things should be okay, at least we Americans will be able to go to strip clubs and buy hot dogs from carts, something that was taken away from New Yorkers when he was mayor.

A lot of those EE girls would rather live in the EU, even though immigration is tight on the continent it is nowhere near as anti-immigrant as the US these days. The Euro continues to gain strength as a currency, and it will come to the point where it surpasses the US Dollar as the currency of choice around the planet.

Check over your notes again. The number of US dollars that are used in forex has been a constant since the Euro was introduced. See this link (in PDF): http://www.ecb.int/pub/pdf/scpops/ecbocp43.pdf

The other thing to consider is that Switzerland has a world class currency, but it is not used significantly in a reserve capacity, and that is fine. People will still take Swiss Francs anywhere around the world. Even if the US was not able to have its cake and eat it too (that is to say financing its budget deficit with its own currency and earning money from seignorage), I don't think we would fall into the sea.

Clandestine782
01-28-08, 00:23
Get real, the USA is heading into history's dustbin, the times of prosperity are coming to an end. A new era is approaching, America's unquestioned economic dominance is already in question with a weakening dollar and stronger growth in Europe and Asia. When I was in the States, I was paying rent, in debt. I live in Australia where I am a homeowner and self employed, the global economy has changed the way things are done, you don't need to live in the USA to prosper any more.

The immigrant situation in the USA is not roses and wine, not by any stretch of the imagination. I knew people who were prospering in their home countries who wound up in the poorhouse in the USA. I recall one family from the UK, the wife had to sell jewelry to buy food for the kids because her husband's business was failing.

The healthcare industry is a sure fire way to make a living in the US but other industries are suffering.It is not quite a simple as that. I have just been looking at some competitiveness rankings, and the US was #1 (this calculation was done by an organization OUTSIDE of the United States). http://www.weforum.org/pdf/Global_Competitiveness_Reports/Reports/gcr_2007/gcr2007_rankings.pdf

I might also add that the United States has actually risen in competitiveness rankings after slipping in the last couple of years (but not leaving the top 10, and, I think, not even leaving the top 5)-- even with a currency that has not been doing so well on the forex markets. Note also that of the top 10 countries, only ONE is an Euro country. Quite a few of the Euro countries have actually slipped in the ranking--even with a currency that has been doing pretty well in the forex markets.

Was a necessary condition of prosperity EVER living in the United States?

The US currency is just an exchange rate phenomenon. The currency has been through some VERY WIDE swings in the last 30 years or so, but has always bounced back. (And don't forget the added bonus of being able to sell more things to the rest of the world when your currency is on a downswing.)

The other question that I have is what it means EVEN IF we didn't have a world class currency? Here is an interesting article about the abundant stupidity that is always going on in the land of my ancestors (Africa, I'm ashamed/ sorry to say). Those guys have actually had two common currencies (CFA Francs) even before the European Union did. They didn't take over the world JUST because several countries got on board and all use a common currency. It does not necessarily follow that the EU will take over the world for the same reason. It is no accident that the word Eurosclerosis exists in the English language.

Viva Chicas
01-28-08, 02:33
Geetings everyone !!

I have been voting in every election since I was 18. I did my duty in the military and paid my taxes. No problems with the law either.
But no more.
What I have determined in the last half century, whether it is a Republican
or Democrat in office, things don't change. In fact, I believe the two parties
are really just one. One part is more conservative, one part more liberal.
But, just two sides of the same coin. Last man in office I have any respect
for is President Reagan. But that was a long time ago.
So yesterday, with great fanfare in my house, I tore up my absentee ballot
and threw it in the trash. My wife and elderly parents did the same thing
and so did a friend of mine. We declared our own independence day!
Plus, in two years I am moving out of country permanently, so they are not
going to get much tax money out of me anymore either.
I give the system the bird.

Beavis
01-28-08, 03:17
those are almost my plans exactly. what do we have to vote for anyway? they stand up there and tell us lies while brain-dead americans cheer them on. then when they get into office they don't do a damn thing but vote themselves a raise each year and give senseless speeches about how their decisions are best for everybody. i just wonder how much money has been kicked back to the current administration for all of these gigantic no-bid contracts.

CBGBConnisur
01-28-08, 23:16
The Euro is the currency that has reserve capability, the EU economy is actually larger than the US, and the ECB has the liquidity and clout to make the Euro the currency of choice. Watch for oil producing nations to switch sales to Euros, Iran and Russia already have plans for this, other nations will follow. Even Warren Buffet and Bill Gates gave negative comments for the future of the Greenback. Alan Greenspan himself hinted that the Euro would overshadow the Dollar in the near future. Anyone who keeps a significant amount of their wealth in US currency is going to be screwed over financially. The peak of US prosperity will always be the second half of the 20th Century, in those times the US really had no competition. Asia is changing the equation with almost limitless white and blue collar slave labor.

The biggest problem with the US is its dependence on debt, the US has used foreign nations to finance debt, many of these countries are no longer willing to finance our debt. The US has used shortcut after shortcut to making short term gains. Our last trump card, China, is now turning away from us, they happen to be the biggest financier of US debt.

As far as the election goes, I think people are still too upset with Bush for any Republican to be elected, its either Obama or Clinton, and I wouldn't be surprised if they run together in November.

Historians will look at the first decade of the new millenium as the end of Pax Americana, the next decade will see a more multipolar world order(the last time this existed there were two World Wars so its not going to be welcome change), eventually you will see an Asian dominated world by mid century.

Beavis
01-29-08, 01:34
As far as the election goes, I think people are still too upset with Bush for any Republican to be elected, its either Obama or Clinton, and I wouldn't be surprised if they run together in November.

As true as this may be it is like really depressing. My plans of moving out of the USA may go into overdrive if this happens.

Doctor_Skank
01-29-08, 08:23
As true as this may be it is like really depressing. My plans of moving out of the USA may go into overdrive if this happens.
Democrats in power means you are leaving the country... does that mean I can come back? )))

CBGBConnisur
01-29-08, 19:16
Democrats and Republicans are one and the same, the Dems maybe a bit more liberal with regards to certain special interests, but historically they have supported an ultra aggressive foreign policy. Vietnam started under JFK, and if you compared JFK to Bush today, JFK might have nuked the entire Mideast, he was liberal for someone in the 60's but not today.

Either way, America boils down to one thing, money. Making money has been the attraction of people worldwide to the USA, the worry now is that the American dollar is destined to collapse, and will bring down the USA's economy and its status in the near future. The Dollar has never went through such a severe devaluation over the past few years in decades past, the last time a dollar devaluation occured in the early 90's it only lost about 15 to 20 percent of its value, its lost nearly 60 percent of its value against the Euro in this recent rout, and is sinking against the Yen, Aussie and Canadian Dollar, and the Swiss Franc, even the Real. The Chinese have propped up the Dollar for several years in order to devalue the Yuan, to keep Chinese exports cheap, now the Chinese are going to move away from the Dollar in the near future, unpegging the yuan from the greenback, when that happens the yuan will go into the ionosphere while the US Dollar plummets into green toilet paper.

You honestly think people come to the US for freedom?? We have the highest incarceration rate on the planet. Even the average Chinese citizen has one fourth the chance of an average American of going to jail, an American is four times more likely to be locked up than a Chinese person!!! If you are a minority, you can forget about civil rights, most police in every major city engage in aggressive racial profiling, this was especially evident in New York, my hometown, where you would see massive numbers of police in black neighborhoods but in other areas they would be few in number. Our treatment of immigrants is nothing short of horrible, Canada and Australia are far more immigrant friendly than the US. Money and the ability to get rich or well to do is what glues America together more than anything else, and sadly this ability is going to be greatly reduced in the coming years once the Dollar finally collapses.

Beavis
01-30-08, 02:47
Democrats in power means you are leaving the country... does that mean I can come back? )))


Why does it matter which party gets elected? They are both a band of crooks and nothing else. Obama and Hillary together, one can just shudder at the thought. Neither wil do anything to help the working man. The Dems will raise taxes to give to the people who have made welfare a way of life while the republicans will give tax breaks to huge corporations to export your job. If you are in the group of people who make between 30K to 200K you have no direction to turn, your screwed either way.

CBGBConnisur
01-30-08, 15:56
The UK just passed the US in standard of living, the average income for a citizen of the UK is now higher than for the average American. Germany and France are also coming in real close. These countries within five years will have a much higher standard of living than the US, and you can blame the devaluing dollar for this, the government saying it boosts exports is nonsense, the trade deficit has gotten bigger not smaller. The US is now 6th or 7th place in terms of nominal GDP, in 1999, it was number 2 with only Barbados being higher. A major currency analyst sees the US per capita rank dipping to 30th place in 5 to 10 years, but within 5 years it will definitely not be listed among the top ten countries in the world in terms of standard of living.

If America is screwed there is always Canada.

I have to agree with Beavis, the Democrats and Republicans are equally bad. And if you think if Al Gore was in office instead of George W, there would be no Iraq War, think again, his Zionist VP Lieberman would have guaranteed an invasion, maybe even one against Iran too, but on that note Iran is not going to be attacked, the next President will not do anything about Iran either. That country is going nuclear because of Russia, and will play a role in the USA's decline in the world, the EU and China will as well.

Jelly Donut
02-01-08, 03:39
. The Dollar has never went through such a severe devaluation over the past few years in decades past, the last time a dollar devaluation occured in the early 90's it only lost about 15 to 20 percent of its value, its lost nearly 60 percent of its value against the Euro in this recent rout, and is sinking against the Yen, Aussie and Canadian Dollar, and the Swiss Franc, even the Real. .

The dollar was worth about 3.75 German marks in 1970 and by 1980 it was worth about 1.75. From there it went back up to 3.40 by 1985 and down to about 1.60 in 1988.

The dollar gets around.

CBGBConnisur
02-01-08, 17:45
The Deutsche Mark never had the liquidity of the Euro, there are more Euros in circulation now than US dollars. The Euro is also becoming a reserve currency alternative, the Mark never had this status. The other thing is that this time around the Dollar is declining against multiple currencies. Another pattern to watch for is the percent of reserves in one currency or another, the Euro has been increasing steadily since it has been introduced.

China is also a big factor in where the Dollar will go these days, China was a non factor in those time periods that you had mentioned unlike now when their economy could actually become bigger than the US's in the near future. I don't recall a point in history where a foreign government had so much control over the Greenback, Mr. Paulson of the Treasury ran off to China for some kind of meeting with the Chinese last year, not a good sign.

The US share of global wealth was much bigger in those periods as well compared to today. Again Asia is going to be a factor in this. Foreign debt today is massive and much larger in real terms than in those time periods as well.

Jelly Donut
02-02-08, 02:18
You were making one argument and now you are making different one. You said it had "never" behaved this way and I was just observing that it has, more than once. The dollar behaved the same way against all other major currencies during those time frames. Yen. Pound. The arguments you are making were made in the 1980's, except the crux was Japan, not China.


The Deutsche Mark never had the liquidity of the Euro, there are more Euros in circulation now than US dollars. The Euro is also becoming a reserve currency alternative, the Mark never had this status. The other thing is that this time around the Dollar is declining against multiple currencies. Another pattern to watch for is the percent of reserves in one currency or another, the Euro has been increasing steadily since it has been introduced.

China is also a big factor in where the Dollar will go these days, China was a non factor in those time periods that you had mentioned unlike now when their economy could actually become bigger than the US's in the near future. I don't recall a point in history where a foreign government had so much control over the Greenback, Mr. Paulson of the Treasury ran off to China for some kind of meeting with the Chinese last year, not a good sign.

The US share of global wealth was much bigger in those periods as well compared to today. Again Asia is going to be a factor in this. Foreign debt today is massive and much larger in real terms than in those time periods as well.