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Did you just manage to talk about Chalerm without mentioning his most illustrious progeny and their superb marksmanship? Virtually all the other corruption put together is harmless fun compared to that one case.LOL,
I apologize. It was late. So much to write about this people ...
Here a link to the story:
http://bangkokdave.blog.com/2012/08/07/chalerm-son-still-the-untouchables/
Giotto
"If your not a Socialist before 30 you have no heart, if your still a Socialist after 30 you have no head" (I would say "have no brain") .
Giotto
That one never made sense to me, Giotto - seems it should be just the opposite. I was quite in favor of capitalism when I was a cosseted lad, but became a socialist upon being subjected to the humiliation of paid employment.
I was quite in favor of capitalism when I was a cosseted lad, but became a socialist upon being subjected to the humiliation of paid employment.Of course you did, for what other choice did you have?
That one never made sense to me, Giotto - seems it should be just the opposite. I was quite in favor of capitalism when I was a cosseted lad, but became a socialist upon being subjected to the humiliation of paid employment.Opebo,
It makes perfectly sense to me that this did not make sense to you. Perfectly! Especially of you are "being subjected to the humiliation of paid employment". Like millions / billions of other human beings.
Humiliation. I have no words for this stupid nonsense, and insult to others. There are definitely too many low lives here on the forum.
Obviously you couldn't make it in "capitalism" as self-employed and you face "humiliation" now - wow, what a mindset - and of course capitalism is responsible. Idiot!
Giotto
That one never made sense to me, Giotto - seems it should be just the opposite. I was quite in favor of capitalism when I was a cosseted lad, but became a socialist upon being subjected to the humiliation of paid employment.Umm, so the rest of us should pay for your existence? Simply to protect your delicate sensibilities?
That one never made sense to me, Giotto - seems it should be just the opposite. I was quite in favor of capitalism when I was a cosseted lad, but became a socialist upon being subjected to the humiliation of paid employment.Think at the millions of unemployed people who would virtually give an arm to be "humiliated", ie get a paid job!
Think at the millions of unemployed people who would virtually give an arm to be "humiliated", ie get a paid job!
Precisely - the miseries of the reserve army of the unemployed are an even worse indictment of the capitalist system than the humiliations of those currently in the yoke.
Umm, so the rest of us should pay for your existence? Simply to protect your delicate sensibilities?
Me? No, the purpose of the capitalist system is so that you can toil to pay for the existence of the rich, Phordphan.
The point being, fellows, that there is no good reason for we poors to prefer liberalism (democracy, capitalism, etc.) over monarchism, socialism, or any other more ancient system - the idea that we're 'individuals' and 'have rights' is obvious, transparent deception. The vast majority of people remain in a servile condition regardless of what is the latest the cover story.
Precisely - the miseries of the reserve army of the unemployed are an even worse indictment of the capitalist system than the humiliations of those currently in the yoke.True enough but the the toilets still need to be cleaned. Complain all you want just please, show up on time. There is really nothing worse than tardy domestic help.
SNIPPED
The point being, fellows, that there is no good reason for we poors to prefer liberalism (democracy, capitalism, etc.) over monarchism, socialism, or any other more ancient system. The idea that we're 'individuals' and 'have rights' is obvious, transparent deception. The vast majority of people remain in a servile condition regardless of what is the latest the cover story.Thank Heavens I am wired differently than you. Different things (philosophies) for different folks.
IamJohnGalt
02-18-14, 06:10
-the idea that we're 'individuals' and 'have rights' is obvious, transparent deception. The vast majority of people remain in a servile condition regardless of what is the latest the cover story.The idea of individual rights is no deception. The idea that the government (regardless of the type, democratic, socialist, et al) actually cares and defends such rights today is the deception.
Member #4698
02-18-14, 14:41
Just when I thought the situation was calming down. This happens:
"At Least Four Dead in Bangkok Clashes.
Security Forces Face Fierce Resistance; Some Protesters Are Armed"
By JAMES HOOKWAY And WARANGKANA CHOMCHUEN
Updated Feb. 18, 2014 6:43 a. M. ET.
"It also now looks increasingly likely that the months long standoff between Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra and her opponents will be settled by judges rather than through the ballot box. The country's anticorruption commission said Tuesday it would formally charge Ms. Yingluck with mismanaging a sprawling rice subsidy program that so far has lost billions of dollars. If the National Anti-Corruption Commission finds her guilty, she will be suspended from office and then face an impeachment trial in the country's Senate.
Tuesday's squall of violence might increase the political pressure to convict Ms. Yingluck and bring an end to months of deadlock that has now claimed the lives of 15 people and left the prime minister unable to form a new government after protesters prevented the conclusion of an election on Feb. 2.
Hundreds of security forces advanced on the Phan Fa bridge district of Bangkok to dislodge protesters who have gathered there and in other parts of the city in a bold attempt to topple Ms. Yingluck's government. They faced fierce resistance from demonstrators, though, some of whom were armed.
As clouds of tear gas wafted among ornate Buddhist temples, a gunfight erupted which killed one policemen and three protesters. City government officials said at least 64 people were injured in clashes, while police arrested nearly 200 people in the area and at another protest site.
Larger protest sites in the commercial center of Bangkok remain intact, and protest leader Suthep Thaugsuban and his followers have vowed to keep up their fight to overthrow Ms. Yingluck's government and root out what they see as the influence of her older brother, former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted by a military coup in 2006.
The financial toll from the marathon protests is mounting quickly, stirring concern among major investors such as Toyota Motor Corp. 7203. TO +2. 62% and other manufacturers about the longer-term stability of what has been one of Asia's most successful economies.
Thailand's fourth-quarter gross domestic product was up a paltry 0. 6% from a year earlier, slowing from the third quarter's 2. 7% pace. Worse, private consumption contracted 4. 5% in the fourth quarter—the biggest slump since the 1990s Asian financial crisis.
The controversial rice subsidy program is adding further fuel to the fire, not to mention threatening Ms. Yingluck's survival.
Launched in 2011, the program involved buying grain from farmers at prices up to 50% above the market rate and withholding it from the international market in the hope of driving up global rice prices. Instead, other countries such as India filled Thailand's place in the export market, leaving Ms. Yingluck's government with paper losses of as much as $8 billion.
In recent months, the cost of the program has soared, and the government is struggling to find sufficient funds to finance its remaining obligations before winding it down later this month.
Protesters quickly seized on the botched attempt to steer world rice prices as evidence that the Shinawatras' populist policies could erode Thailand's economic stability. Graft investigators confirmed Tuesday that Ms. Yingluck would be formally charged and be required to defend herself against allegations she had ignored evidence of worsening losses and corruption.
In a televised address, Ms. Yingluck denied corruption in the rice program, saying it was designed to help boost incomes for farmers and spur consumer spending in rural areas."I must reaffirm the rice pledging scheme is the right policy and there was no conspiracy to corrupt," said Ms. Yingluck, adding that she welcomed the antigraft agency's investigation.
She also blamed antigovernment protesters for delaying payments to farmers, some of whom have been waiting months—long before the most recent series of protests began. Some banks have been wary of lending money to support the rice program, apparently fearing a backlash among the protesters, most of whom are based in the comparatively wealthy areas in and around Bangkok and in southern Thailand.
They appear to have good reason. Officials at the Government Savings Bank on Monday said depositors had yanked nearly $1 billion in deposits from the state-owned bank after last week providing a loan to the agricultural cooperative operating the rice subsidy. This was despite government guarantees on deposits at GSB, which had total deposits of $57 billion as of Feb. 13.
"I'm worried that if something happens to the rice-subsidy program, I'll not get my deposit back," said Pranee, a 52-year-old woman who wished to be identified only by her given name, as she lined up to withdraw her savings."I find it hard to trust the bank. At first it said it wouldn't provide any loans to support the rice subsidy, but then it did. Then the bank's president said it would stop lending, but I don't know if I can believe it."
The bank's chief executive, Woravit Chailimpamontri, resigned Tuesday after scrapping the loan agreement. Protest leaders now are hoping that Ms. Yingluck could become another victim."
—Nopparat Chaichalearmmongkol contributed to this article.
Write to James Hookway at james.hookway@wsj.com
One police shot dead by the PDRC protesting thugs.
Video below of grenade thrown by PDRC protestors at police, hits the police shield and then one policeman tries to kick it away. It goes off as he kicks it. Poor guy lost his leg.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152233372405993&set=vb.747595992&type=2&theater
Bangkok dangerous. Be warned and keep away.
Paul Kausch
02-18-14, 16:11
Just when I thought the situation was calming down. This happens:The Bangkok Post reported the police were firing rubber bullets, tear gas and live ammunition at protesters. After the discharge of live ammunition by the police, several "popcorn gunmen" fired back at the police, killing one police officer. By that time three protesters had been killed and several dozen wounded by the police. When gunman returned fire, the police immediately withdrew. Popcorn gunmen is a term the Bangkok media created after a photograph showed one of the opposition security guards firing at the skirmish prior to the 2 February elections was using a seed corn bag to cover his weapon.
The NAAC summons is to hear formal charges. In other words this is an arraignment. Formal charges will be read to her on 27 February, after which the trial will begin. I've read in various Thai and regional media that she has to resign all offices once charged. If found guilty she will be barred from holding political office for 5 years.
There are rumors circulating that a deal has been struck. She will resign. A "neutral" prime minister will be appointed. Corruption charges against Yingluck will be dropped, as will charges against Suthep and other opposition leaders. People are pointing out these rumors seem far fetched. For one, the constitution requires the PM must be elected.
As for the run on the banks, Pheu Thai leaders and supporters are making deposits in the Government Savings Bank in a show of support. Worawit Chailimpamontri just announced his resignation as president and head of the GSB. He said he made the decision after reviewing the negative impact of the loan deal.
The Airport of Thailand (AoT) is considering purchasing government bonds to provide some funds to begin payment to rice farmers. Several hundred AoT employees dressed in black on Tuesday to express their opposition to the plan.
Paul Kausch
02-18-14, 16:14
Bangkok dangerous. Be warned and keep away.Keep away from the protests. Yesterday on my local news I heard several people were killed in the city of several million I live in. I'm not planning to move.
Western787
02-18-14, 22:22
Odds very high now the Army will stage a coup (dismantling encampments and outlawing demonstrations) and I say this because Bangkok and probably Thailand itself is now on the verge of a severe depression, and that depression will take everyone down, and will cause massive dis-investment from outsiders. That would be a disaster for both Bangkok and Thailand.
So far they are reluctant to do this, because an Army coup has problems, but its now a matter of the lesser of two evils, selecting the least bad choice.
Thailand has been lucky in the past and probably will be this time too because the head of the Army is not into keeping permanent power, he actually wants to do what's right for the country.
Western787
02-18-14, 22:29
Just when I thought the situation was calming down. This happens: The Army Coup was always inevitable from the start and in recent months I have had a number of Thais (on their own w / o prompting) approach me and explain why they are demonstrating. These are middle class Thais, and apparently educated as they often speak near fluent English, and they are very pissed at the Govt and what they are doing.
Western787
02-18-14, 22:40
Precisely - the miseries of the reserve army of the unemployed are an even worse indictment of the capitalist system than the humiliations of those currently in the yoke."Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill
Odds very high now the Army will stage a coup (dismantling encampments and outlawing demonstrations)
The current demonstrations are precisely demonstrating for a coup. That is, their protest is asking for one and endeavoring to provide a reason for one.
There would be no need for any outlawing of these particular demonstrators or dismantling of their encampments, as they would be celebrating all the way home.
Western787
02-19-14, 01:33
The current demonstrations are precisely demonstrating for A coup. That is, their protest is asking for one and endeavoring to provide a reason for one.
There would be no need for any outlawing of these particular demonstrators or dismantling of their encampments, as they would be celebrating all the way home.Yes you are correct, and that has been true from the beginning as it takes down the existing government thereby accomplishing the PDRC'S #1 goal. So the only open question would be whether the PDRC might reinstitute those protests if their additional demands are not met.
Thailand has been lucky in the past and probably will be this time too because the head of the Army is not into keeping permanent power, he actually wants to do what's right for the country.I would say that the Army wants to do what's right for the Army.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston ChurchillOf course no pure system works. Northern Europe has taken a blend of capitalism and socialism and created great societies with the highest standard of living in the world.
Paul Kausch
02-19-14, 04:03
Based on what I've been reading it seems events in Thailand are coming to a head.
A few days ago the Criminal Court ordered Sonthiyan Chuenruthainaitham be released on bail. The police wanted to hold him in detention. The government believes he is the mastermind behind the opposition and thought his detention would hamper the opposition movement. Now he is free to resume his activities. It is reported his arrest was personally ordered by Thaksin.
Three groups represent rice farmers from different regions. The Thai Farmers Association, led by Wichian Puanglamjiak represents farmers in 40 districts. It supports Thaksin's regime and encourages its members to be patient and remain supportive of the government and the rice scheme. There is a second group that also goes by the name Thai Rice Farmers Association. It is led by Prasit Boonchuey. The third group is a network of farmers from the western and lower northern provinces, led by Rawee Rungruang. The last two groups have joined together and are conducting the protests at the Commerce Ministry over the delinquent rice payments. These two groups are being careful to distance themselves from the PDRC.
Pheu Thai efforts to move money into the BAAC to make partial payments to rice farmers are being stymied. Over the weekend 5 billion bahts was transferred from the GSB to the BAAC. This caused an immediate run on the bank and has led to the resignation of the bank president. GSB subsequently stated it will halt money transfers to the BAAC and attempt to pull back the money it had already extended. Net withdrawals (minus new deposits) were reported at 42 billion bahts after two days. Rumors began circulating that the Airport Authority of Thailand was planning to loan money to the BAAC. Several hundred workers dressed in black descended on the headquarters at Don Muang. The AoT has now stated it will not use its surplus to buy government bonds to fund the rice scheme.
The military is refusing to hand over to police four soldiers who are being investigated for their alleged role in the shooting of red shirt leader Kwanchai Praipana. The military closely followed the clash between police and demonstrators at Ratchadamnoen Avenue. When the police started to fire at protesters with live ammunition the military dispatched medics to provide emergency first aid to the protesters. Army Chief Gen Prayuth Chan-ocha cancelled a scheduled trip to the south to remain in Bangkok. He felt the situation had reached a critical point and it was necessary for him to remain in Bangkok to monitor events. For weeks there have been reports of critical remarks from Prayuth directed towards the caretaker government and the police. For example, reportedly he stated that the emergency decree was unnecessary as the opposition was peaceful and had a right to engage in protests against the government. It is reported Prayuth detests the Shinawatras.
Police withdrew from Ratchadamnoen Avenue when popcorn shooters returned police gunfire, killing one policeman. Popcorn shooters is a name the press has created for the opposition security guards when one was observed using a feed corn bag to cover his weapon. It is believed these security guards are former and active military personnel. There are shadowy groups of 'men in black' so named because they tend to cover their faces with black bandanas. Some of these comprise the opposition's security forces. Others are thought to be mercenaries who hire themselves to the highest bidder. There are rumors some of these mercenaries are Cambodian. It is believed in 2010 forerunners of the men in black were enlisted into the red-shirts. Now some people believe they are hired guns working for the opposition. For several years the Pheu Thai has been developing its own private militia by giving weapons training to young men in loyal villages.
Militant red-shirt groups who claim to operate independent of Pheu Thai warn that if Yingluck is forced to resign or if the military attempts to intervene, they will start a civil war. Some people even believe Thaksin's recent one day trip to Burma was to secure the use of regions along the border with Thailand as staging ground for insurgency actions.
The National Anti-Corruption Commission just announced it is charging Yingluke with dereliction of duty for her administration of the rice scheme. The NACC has ordered her to answer to the charge on 27 February. In the meantime Yingluke used state television to announce that the plight of the rice farmers was caused by the forces opposed to her administration.
While I have sympathy for people whose lives are being adversely affected by these events, I find them fascinating; and I still look forward to my June trip.
Paul Kausch
02-19-14, 05:07
I have just read that on Wednesday Rawee Rungruang group of rice farmers with about 150 trucks will join the PDRC protest at the Office of the Permanent Secretary for Defence on Chaeng Wattana.
Western787
02-19-14, 05:50
Of course no pure system works. Northern Europe has taken a blend of capitalism and socialism and created great societies with the highest standard of living in the world.
All systems are hybrid balances between capitalism and socialism, but at some point one element becomes the primary system and the USA is at that tipping point right now
Actually there is no (USA style)"citizenship by birth" conferred in any of the euro-socialist style states, (excepting Canada), and they are generall homogeneous societies (especially the Scandavian countries) that largely wall out or limit the rights of outsiders.
Socialism eventually collapses under its own weight once the producers, the builders, and the creators figure out gaming the system, idleness, and working the freebies is a better strategy OR you end up with relentless French style economic stagnation. Penalize, demotivate, and scapegoat the successful and productive, and you will less producers and more takers. I give the USA perhaps 5 years at best before the medical system and the currency collapse. Obamacare is a complete disaster and will cause the loss of 10's of 1000's of highly skilled MDs
All systems are hybrid balances between capitalism and socialism, but at some point one element becomes the primary system and the USA is at that tipping point right now.
Actually there is no (USA style)"citizenship by birth" conferred in any of the euro-socialist style states, (excepting Canada) , and they are generall homogeneous societies (especially the Scandavian countries) that largely wall out or limit the rights of outsiders.
Socialism eventually collapses under its own weight once the producers, the builders, and the creators figure out gaming the system, idleness, and working the freebies is a better strategy OR you end up with relentless French style economic stagnation. Penalize, demotivate, and scapegoat the successful and productive, and you will less producers and more takers. I give the USA perhaps 5 years at best before the medical system and the currency collapse. Obamacare is a complete disaster and will cause the loss of 10's of 1000's of highly skilled MDsAlthough not relevant to the rest of your argument, Belgium, Finland, France, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and United Kingdom, do have "just soli" aka "citizenship by birth", be it "By declaration or automatically at or before majority", whereas the USA style is "unconditional", meaning you actually have actively renounce it. See http://eudo-citizenship.eu/docs/ius-soli-policy-brief.pdf
Paul Kausch
02-19-14, 06:28
I suggest we retire the Thailand Politics Thread and replace it with a new thread: "USA, EU and other developed countries political thread." Or better yet, just move these discussions to the USA Sex Guide. ;)
Western787
02-19-14, 08:49
Although not relevant to the rest of your argument, Belgium, Finland, France, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and United Kingdom, do have "just soli" aka "citizenship by birth", be it "By declaration or automatically at or before majority", whereas the USA style is "unconditional", meaning you actually have actively renounce it. See.
http://eudo-citizenship.eu/docs/ius-soli-policy-brief.pdfThe critical issue is UNCONDITIONAL BIRTHRIGHT and its a huge matter as it allows the system to be gamed in an intentional and systemic way
"Of advanced economies (as defined by the International Monetary Fund) , Canada and the United States are the only countries that observe birthright citizenship. [6][7][8][9] As is shown clearly on the map, the just soli is mainly in use in 'the new world' — the Americas. Since 2004, no European country grants unconditional birthright citizenship. [10][11]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
IamJohnGalt
02-19-14, 08:52
I suggest we retire the Thailand Politics Thread and replace it with a new thread: "USA, EU and other developed countries political thread." Or better yet, just move these discussions to the USA Sex Guide. ;)C'mon, Paul, don't you think many of the comments have relevance to Thailand's political future?
(Besides, is there any place that sex is duller than the USA?)
IamJohnGalt
02-19-14, 08:55
The critical issue is UNCONDITIONAL BIRTHRIGHT and its a huge matter.
"Of advanced economies (as defined by the International Monetary Fund) , Canada and the United States are the only countries that observe birthright citizenship. [6][7][8][9] As is shown clearly on the map, the just soli is mainly in use in 'the new world' — the Americas. Since 2004, no European country grants unconditional birthright citizenship. [10][11]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soliAnd now-a-days infants in the US are contractually enrolled in social security before they reach the age for valid contracts.
Looks more like serfdom to me.
Paul Kausch
02-19-14, 09:09
C'mon, Paul, don't you think many of the comments have relevance to Thailand's political future?
(Besides, is there any place that sex is duller than the USA?) Note the winking smile. I haven't bothered logging on to ISG's poorer relation in over a year. Funny, I was thinking about writing a post comparing Thaksin and Huey P Long. Maybe I will if the Shinawatras are around long enough for me to finish it.
Of course no pure system works. Northern Europe has taken a blend of capitalism and socialism and created great societies with the highest standard of living in the world.Not so long ago (pre-Obama and pre crash) Sweden, long the poster child for successful socialism, had a standard of living lower than any of the 50 US states. Yes, lower than Alabama or Mississippi. So much for the wonders of European socialism.
Of course today, with over 90 million people out of the labor force, record high welfare and food stamps. Sweden is looking better and better. Long live the welfare state!
Not so long ago (pre-Obama and pre crash) Sweden, long the poster child for successful socialism, had a standard of living lower than any of the 50 US states. Yes, lower than Alabama or Mississippi. So much for the wonders of European socialism.
Of course today, with over 90 million people out of the labor force, record high welfare and food stamps. Sweden is looking better and better. Long live the welfare state!Where are you getting your stats? That is simply not true.
Not so long ago (pre-Obama and pre crash) Sweden, long the poster child for successful socialism, had a standard of living lower than any of the 50 US states. Yes, lower than Alabama or Mississippi. So much for the wonders of European socialism.
Of course today, with over 90 million people out of the labor force, record high welfare and food stamps. Sweden is looking better and better. Long live the welfare state!What a load of complete nonsense. Apart from a financial crisis (around 1992) (and I don't know if that had a material effect on living standards) , Sweden has had a consistently high standard of living relative to other developed economies for 100 years. I'm not necessarily supporting neutrality and high taxes, but let's get the facts right.
Wolvenvacht
02-19-14, 21:07
Not so long ago (pre-Obama and pre crash) Sweden, long the poster child for successful socialism, had a standard of living lower than any of the 50 US states. Yes, lower than Alabama or Mississippi. So much for the wonders of European socialism.
Of course today, with over 90 million people out of the labor force, record high welfare and food stamps. Sweden is looking better and better. Long live the welfare state!When you define "standard of living" as the number of slaves you own, then indeed Alabama or Mississippi will best Sweden.
Member #4698
02-19-14, 21:58
When you define "standard of living" as the number of slaves you own, then indeed Alabama or Mississippi will best Sweden.Come on W. You are better than this cheap shot. Maybe you should remember Lynyrd Skynyrd's famous put down of Neil Young for writing "Southern Man". (BTW "Southern Man" was a great rocker, but it had silly sophomoric lyrics.)
"Big wheels keep on turning
Carry me home to see my kin
Singing songs about the Southland
I miss Alabamy once again
Well I heard mister Young sing about her
Well, I heard ole Neil put her down
Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
A Southern man don't need him around anyhow"
Obviously you have never been to Alabama or Mississippi so you don't know what you are talking about. It's pretty nice country. Nice looking women too. Maybe you should go and see for yourself.
I have to admit I have lived in the southern U S. Yes, there is some nice country and good looking woman there. More in the bigger cities as you would expect. But I always knew when I was talking to a local girl. When she spoke I could see her smile and her teeth. Thus I could use my favorite pick up line. ' I like your tooth". Not intended to be a personal slam. Just a joke.
Can we please go back to Thai politics. PLEASE
Come on W. You are better than this cheap shot. Maybe you should remember Lynyrd Skynyrd's famous put down of Neil Young for writing "Southern Man". (BTW "Southern Man" was a great rocker, but it had silly sophomoric lyrics.)
"Big wheels keep on turning
Carry me home to see my kin
Singing songs about the Southland
I miss Alabamy once again
Well I heard mister Young sing about her
Well, I heard ole Neil put her down
Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
A Southern man don't need him around anyhow"
Obviously you have never been to Alabama or Mississippi so you don't know what you are talking about. It's pretty nice country. Nice looking women too. Maybe you should go and see for yourself.I am from the Southern US. Some good looking women, but it is filled with conservative christians, and that makes it pretty intolerable. But, the good news is that TX will go Dem by 2022 due to an ever growing hispanic population and that will completely change the fabric of electoral politics in the US. Bye Bye Republicans, unless they change their tune.
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 02:23
The NACC has charged Yingluck with negligence of duty. She is supposed to appear before the court on 27 February and respond to the charge. She has announced she will not appear and will send representatives in her stead. A final decision to indict her or not is expected in mid-March. If she is indicted she will be required to resign from all offices.
For weeks the NACC has been saying they were going to charge her in late February and that there was more than sufficient evidence to support an indictment. Sure enough, on the 18th of February they made the announcement. On the 27th of February she must appear before them. They seem to be true to their word. It doesn't take a genius to figure out they've made up their minds and will indict her regardless what she has to say.
Now this is what is interesting. An impeachment requires a three-fifths vote by the senate. However, fifty senators are accused of misconduct for attempts to pass a charter amendment to make the senate fully elected. It is not clear if the senate can muster a quorum and convene. It depends on whether a quorum is based on the full senate or just the remaining senators. If it is based on the full senate it is mathematically impossible to get a quorum. Similarly, it is not clear if the entire senate or just the remaining senators are needed to vote on impeachment.
So the soap opera will drag on. The caretaker government will hang in limbo for a couple of weeks. Then Yingluck will be indicted and forced to resign. Then I assume the Constitutional Court will deliberate and decide on the quorum question. That will take who knows how long. Days? Weeks? It seems likely if the court rules a quorum is based on the remaining senators it is likely it will also decide they may vote on impeachment. And of course the fifty senators accused of misconduct are the ones that would vote against impeachment and the remaining senators are the ones who would vote for it. Either way, Yingluck is screwed. She's out of office, either hanging in limbo indefinitely or waiting to be impeached.
Fascinating.
As some writers covering these events wrote some time ago, Yingluck is dying a death by a thousand cuts. Thaksin is being backed into a corner. One by one all his options are being taken away. What I'm wondering is whether the red shirt's men in black will carry out their threat to initiate violent insurrection if Yingluck is forced to resign.
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 02:31
The PDRC asked the Civil Court to strike down the emergency decree. Well, get this, the court said the decree may remain in effect, but the government is prohibited from attempting to disperse the opposition protesters.
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 02:40
Abhisit humbly announced that the Democrats accept some of the blame of the current political problems and proposes a neutral person be appointed to lead the reforms. Of course this is what the PDRC has been seeking up until now and Pheu Thai has uncategorically rejected.
Is it a coincidence that on the day the court blocked the government from stopping the protests and the day after the NACC announced Yingluck must appear before them on charges of dereliction of duty Abhisit made this announcement?
Oh, and yesterday the government announced that the rice farmers will start getting some of their money in eight weeks. The number "8" has auspicious meaning in the Chinese numerology system. Is this why they picked that number?
Mackin, you're welcome. :)
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 04:04
When it created the rice scheme the government allocated 500 billion baht to fund the program. According to the Thai Rice Exporters Association the government has bought about 26.75 million tons of paddy rice at a cost of about 760 billion baht. It has generated about 130 billion baht from rice sales. So the 500 billion is long gone and government is about 150 billion baht short of being able to pay the rice farmers for rice they have already turned over to the government. This is exactly what commodity trading experts and economists predicted would happen. In fact the shortage may be even greater as many individual in the rice export trade believe Thaksin and his cronies have stolen about one-third of the revenue generated from rice sales. The scary thing is Yingluck is defending the program and wants it to continue. No wonder knowledgeable people are genuinely fearful about Thailand's future, fearing national bankruptcy, crumbling infrastructure, decimated educational and health care systems, high unemployment and collapsing standards of living are the countries future if this program continues.
Tiradentes
02-20-14, 04:44
I am from the Southern US. Some good looking women, but it is filled with conservative christians, and that makes it pretty intolerable. But, the good news is that TX will go Dem by 2022 due to an ever growing hispanic population and that will completely change the fabric of electoral politics in the US. Bye Bye Republicans, unless they change their tune.I live in Maryland. The bluest state among the Blue states. Run by Liberals since the dark ages. Yet if you read the USA guide, you will find that MD is worse than say, Iran, when it comes to mongering purposes. AMP's always being shut down by the popo, incall escorts always being detained, streetwalkers and Johns being arrested with their pictures plastered in the news for all to see. Basically, if you decide the play by pay, it my costs you anything from an arm and a leg to your reputation being ruined for a crappy service.
Abhisit humbly announced that the Democrats accept some of the blame of the current political problems and proposes a neutral person be appointed to lead the reforms. Of course this is what the PDRC has been seeking up until now and Pheu Thai has uncategorically rejected.What a hypocrite Abhisit is.
He was PM when the red shirt demonstration was "dissolved" in 2010, and more than 100 people lost their lives. Suthep (the self-announced protest leader and general secretary of the PDRC) was deputy PM and headed the CRES, which was in charge of the operations against the demonstrators.
NOBODY EVER took over the political responsibility for the death of so many people. Both politicians are key figures of the political problem in Thailand, same as Thaksin and Chalerm are some of those "problem cases". There are more.
All of them should resign and disappear, and politically shut up forever. They have lost ALL credibility.
We definitely don't need a hypocrite Abhisit trying to get back to power via a controllable "third party" person or via dubious court decisions. We tried that already. And it did not work out.
All these assholes have to quit and to retire from politics! That would be a fantastic first step to "restart Thailand"!
Giotto
PS:
This attempt from Suthep to side with the rice farmers - ridiculous!!! Even if the farmers are not happy with the government right now - at least half of them will still stay quiet because they don't want to lose the program. The other half will right now argue with the government and try to enforce their payment, but they will NEVER side with "killer" Suthep, the man who is politically responsible for the dead red-shirt demonstrators from 2010. As long as Abhisit and Suthep are heading the DP there is NO CHANCE for this party to get any significant number of votes or even seats in the North / North-East.
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 07:36
What a hypocrite Abhisit is.I think you sensed my sarcasm. I hope I made it clear enough for all.
All these assholes have to quit and to retire from politics! That would be a fantastic first step to "restart Thailand"!I agree, but that is too wishful thinking.
PS:
This attempt from Suthep to side with the rice farmers. Ridiculous! Even if the farmers are not happy with the government right now. At least half of them will still stay quiet because they don't want to lose the program. The other half will right now argue with the government and try to enforce their payment, but they will NEVER side with "killer" Suthep, the man who is politically responsible for the dead red-shirt demonstrators from 2010. As long as Abhisit and Suthep are heading the DP there is NO CHANCE for this party to get any significant number of votes or even seats in the North / North-East.It seems the rice farmers are not one monolithic group. The ones from the north and northeast seem unswerving in their loyalty. The ones from regions that are not Pheu Thai strongholds, while they hoped to benefit from the rice scam may be questioning where they should place their loyalties.
Seems I've read somewhere that the opposition's end game is to destroy Pheu Thai and the Shinawatras and drive them out of the country; and then prevent the reformation of one dominant party. The goal is a number of smaller regional party, no one large enough to claim a majority in the parliament. Whether they can attain that goal is another matter.
It does seem with each passing week Thaksin's position becomes weaker and weaker. I think it's just a matter of time before Yingluck is impeached. Seems they are dragging it out for some reason. Are they weakening Thaksin's position so much they can strike a kill blow? Are they hoping they can force him to make some backroom deal? Are they worried about the red shirts' men in black and village militias? They've said they will initiate an armed insurrection if there is a coup or Yingluck is forced out office. Are they waiting for a sign from heaven? Beats me. It seems something is going on that we're not hearing about. Actually I bet a lot is going on that we're not hearing about. And I think whoever is orchestrating the PDRC moves is quite clever. I've read and heard Suthup is just the public mouthpiece.
Wolvenvacht
02-20-14, 08:15
Come on W. You are better than this cheap shot. Maybe you should remember Lynyrd Skynyrd's famous put down of Neil Young for writing "Southern Man". (BTW "Southern Man" was a great rocker, but it had silly sophomoric lyrics.)
"Big wheels keep on turning
Carry me home to see my kin
Singing songs about the Southland
I miss Alabamy once again
Well I heard mister Young sing about her
Well, I heard ole Neil put her down
Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
A Southern man don't need him around anyhow"
Obviously you have never been to Alabama or Mississippi so you don't know what you are talking about. It's pretty nice country. Nice looking women too. Maybe you should go and see for yourself.Nice country, pretty women. I take your word for it.
It is also a country where the minimum wage for tipped workers is $2. 13 / hour. So if you work in a restaurant, you are almost working for free for the owner. I think in Thailand the minimum wage is far above that.
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 09:02
Nice country, pretty women. I take your word for it.
It is also a country where the minimum wage for tipped workers is $2. 13 / hour. So if you work in a restaurant, you are almost working for free for the owner. I think in Thailand the minimum wage is far above that.Come on now, are you comparing Thailand to the Southeastern USA? If I was Thai, I'd feel insulted. ;)
Where are you getting your stats? That is simply not true.Very will, I will show you.
http://mises.org/daily/955
This entry, from 2002, shows that average income in Sweden was lower than the lowest socio-economic segment of the USA.
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/8111041ec006.pdf?expires=1392885260&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=2427D1527BBF3B5A9A0CB1FF3035944C
This one's more current. In 2011 note the equivalized income for the US vs. Sweden.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/09/10/america-has-less-poverty-than-sweden/
A recent entry from Forbes contrasting poverty in Sweden vs. The USA.
http://www.whyileftsweden.com/?p=318
http://www.thelocal.se/20131204/swedens-health-system-worst-in-the-nordics
Interesting synopsis of medical issues in Sweden, and an interesting site.
http://www.paoracle.com/SocialismWORKS/index. Php? SW=Sweden.
Another interesting site to peruse when you have nothing to do.
I showed you mine, now you show me yours.
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 09:23
more trouble for yingluck and pheu thai.
wisit wisitsora-at has been expelled as gsb board director over his role in lending 20 billion baht to the baac. the gsb labor union is demanding the resignation of the entire board for violating the bank's charter which forbids it from being used as a political tool. in three days government supporters have deposited 30 billion baht to shore up the bank. existing depositors have withdrawn 85 billion baht, some in protest, most out of fear for the safely of their money. the gsb deposit base stood at 1.72 trillion baht on august 31, 2013. however, fitch ratings is warning that risks to thailand's financial system are increasing due to the rice scheme.
two groups have filed petitions with the ec claiming yingluck's recent speech on state media violated the constitution and election laws. the groups assert yingluck's speech was intended to promote her administration, pheu thai and the rice scheme, in violation of section 181 of the constitution. they also claim the use of state media for a political speech is a violation of section 60. and they charge she made an offer of property or other interests to solicit votes in violation of sections 53 and 57. they are asking the ec to forward the petition to the constitutional court and seek dissolution of the pheu thai party.
When you define "standard of living" as the number of slaves you own, then indeed Alabama or Mississippi will best Sweden.Substitute household income for slaves and let's compare again. Substitute specifics, like house size, number of automobiles owned per household, TV sets, disposable income, etc, and let's compare again.
What's the income tax and VAT in Sweden? Maybe that's a new definition of slavery?
Nice country, pretty women. I take your word for it.
It is also a country where the minimum wage for tipped workers is $2. 13 / hour. So if you work in a restaurant, you are almost working for free for the owner. I think in Thailand the minimum wage is far above that.Wrong again. The "Basic Combined Cash & Tip Minimum Wage Rate" is $7. 25. The employer may credit up to $5. 12 of tips against the $7. 25 minimum, assuming the employee makes at least that in tips. If not, he can't deduct the full amount. Therefore, the employee is guaranteed at least $7. 25 / hour. However, any decent waiter / waitress makes far more than the minimum wage.
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 09:45
Now that the government cannot disperse the protesters Shinawatra family business are the new target. Five hundred protesters demonstrated outside SC Asset Corp, a Shinawatra controlled company. SC Asset shares have fallen by 10% over the last two days, as have shares M-Link Asia Corp, a mobile handset distributor linked to the Shinawatras. As protesters waved national flags and blew whistles, large numbers of SC Asset employees were seen exiting the building.
Substitute household income for slaves and let's compare again. Substitute specifics, like house size, number of automobiles owned per household, TV sets, disposable income, etc, and let's compare again.
What's the income tax and VAT in Sweden? Maybe that's a new definition of slavery?Really house size? Number of cars? Those are the things that enslave Americans and keep them in perpetual debt. Swedes are far more "free." Free of worry that is. Health care, education, retirement, paid vacation (month in Thailand is not so bad eh?), all a given. A much less stressful existence than in the US. Who cares about more cars and bigger houses when you have that? Dude, what you expressed is exactly what is wrong with the US and why it is so screwed up. Glad I am gone. Would trade my US citizenship for EU, OZ, or NZ any day and would urge all young graduates in the US to escape to better places as well.
IamJohnGalt
02-20-14, 13:10
Would trade my US citizenship for EU, OZ, or NZ any day and would urge all young graduates in the US to escape to better places as well.Unfortunately EU, OZ, and NZ make it very difficult for Americans over 45 to immigrate (unless you have heaps of money, or an employment sponsor.)
Unfortunately EU, OZ, and NZ make it very difficult for Americans over 45 to immigrate (unless you have heaps of money, or an employment sponsor.)And so the US does! Random fact, in OZ after 50 you're not eligible anymore for immigrant worker visa.
Paul Kausch
02-20-14, 17:22
Just read an article in which Yingluck announces she will vigorously defend herself and seek due process. Cut through the B. S. And her defense is:
1. You're prejudiced against!
2. I just run the government. How do you expect me to control these guys?
3. Why are you moving so fast?
Well, the soap opera has had too much tragedy lately, what with the recent killings. A little comic relief is a nice change of pace.
Wolvenvacht
02-20-14, 20:51
Very will, I will show you.
http://mises.org/daily/955Self serving Austrian tea-party type website. Untrustworthy and very politically driven.
This entry, from 2002, shows that average income in Sweden was lower than the lowest socio-economic segment of the USA.
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/8111041ec006.pdf?expires=1392885260&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=2427D1527BBF3B5A9A0CB1FF3035944C
This one's more current. In 2011 note the equivalized income for the US vs. Sweden.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/09/10/america-has-less-poverty-than-sweden/All it says is that there is more "poverty" (defined as less than 50% of the median income) in Sweden than in the USA. That is a very relative comparison. A country with a very low median income will automatically have less "poor" by this definition. But it also doubts all these calculations as they are perhaps not based on the same data and do not take into account what is done to alleviate poverty. I'd rather be poor in Sweden than in the USA.
A recent entry from Forbes contrasting poverty in Sweden vs. The USA.
http://www.whyileftsweden.com/?p=318A website by someone with an axe to grind. Sure you may have to wait for some "longish" time to get medical aid in Sweden if you are poor. In the USA you don't have to wait. You simply lie down and die. Unless you want to avail yourself of Obamacare. ;)
http://www.thelocal.se/20131204/swedens-health-system-worst-in-the-nordics
Interesting synopsis of medical issues in Sweden, and an interesting site.
http://www.paoracle.com/SocialismWORKS/index. Php?SW=Sweden.But of course the Nordic medical system is top-level. It is no shame not being top of the tops.
Wolvenvacht
02-20-14, 21:05
Wrong again. The "Basic Combined Cash & Tip Minimum Wage Rate" is $7. 25. The employer may credit up to $5. 12 of tips against the $7. 25 minimum, assuming the employee makes at least that in tips. If not, he can't deduct the full amount. Therefore, the employee is guaranteed at least $7. 25 / hour. However, any decent waiter / waitress makes far more than the minimum wage.Man, you just made my case! Thank you. You just said the employer may DEDUCT up to USD 5. 12 from the minimum wage (which is already shamefully low). In other words he has people working for him for what would be called slave wages in any decent Western country. And he does not have to pay any meaningful amount of insurance or social security. And please, don't give those workers access to any state arranged / controlled medical insurance. The employers shares in the medical insurance industry might take a hit! Or taxes might go up a tad.
=========================
I tried to IM you but your message box is full. But I can post my message here as well:
Hey Phordpan,
Let's bury the war axe. You have your ideas, I have mine and we will not succeed in changing those by posting totally off-topic messages on the forum. We will only annoy the other forum members.
Peace?
Wolvenvacht
Man, you just made my case! Thank you. You just said the employer may DEDUCT up to USD 5. 12 from the minimum wage (which is already shamefully low). In other words he has people working for him for what would be called slave wages in any decent Western country. And he does not have to pay any meaningful amount of insurance or social security. And please, don't give those workers access to any state arranged / controlled medical insurance. The employers shares in the medical insurance industry might take a hit! Or taxes might go up a tad.
=========================
I tried to I'm you but your message box is full. But I can post my message here as well:
Hey Phordpan,
Let's bury the war axe. You have your ideas, I have mine and we will not succeed in changing those by posting totally off-topic messages on the forum. We will only annoy the other forum members.
Peace?
WolvenvachtThe point was that the waitress still makes a minimum of $7. 25. Nobody is making $2. 00 / hr. Of course, inflation has rendered the minimum wage practically moot. Virtually nobody here works for that. BTW, minimum wages were invented in order to keep blacks out of the work force. They are very discriminatory and very racist. But that's another topic.
As far as burying the hatchet, I'm happy to. I have no animosity toward anybody, but I am always ready to defend my positions with facts, clarity and with.
Oh, and I'll flush out my inbox.
I won't argue. Senseless pursuit of material items is a complete waste. But we have to debate standard of living using some sort of empirical data."A much less stressful existence" is very subjective. Personally, I would prefer that my "benevolent" government NOT try to take care of me. I've visited far too many countries where said benevolence resulted in unimaginable violence, bloodshed and death. I'd rather be in a position to buy my own health care, education, retirement, etc, etc, and have Big Brother stay the hell out of my life.
I submit a capitalist system, without overweening government interference, provides a much better existence than some bureaucrat's idea of what said existence should be. I'll bet you a Racer 5 at our favorite watering hole that the Cambodians would have loved to have had Adam Smith running their show rather than Pol Pot.
Now back to Thai politics.
IamJohnGalt
02-21-14, 08:02
And so the US does! Random fact, in OZ after 50 you're not eligible anymore for immigrant worker visa.It's age 45 in Oz (unless it was changed in past 6 months.) Point system requires 100 pts and over 45yr maxes out at 99 points even if your work experience is world class. (Of course a corporation can sponsor someone over age 45 with guaranteed salary for 4 year visa if immigrant has special talents that no Aussie has. Pay must meet or exceed what an Aussie would be paid in that job.)
Yes, the US does it too, unless you swim across the Rio Grande and stay until blessed by amnesty. ; )
Paul, if you review your posts over the past month or so you can see you are clearly led by the headlines of The Nation and The Bangkok Post.
Lots of crazy propaganda written in them (and they are both biased against the government and PTP) is copied on to here by you, claiming this and that is going to happen and then later we all see it does not happen.
You would be far better served noting that The Nation and The Bangkok Post are extremely biased against Thaksin and his affiliated political parties. The Bangkok Post far more than the The Nation, but both are anti-PTP / anti-Thaksin.
This is because the owners of these papers are of course part of the supporters of the PAD / Democrats / PDRC.
You should rely more on the real situation in Thailand, and less on what those 2 biased newspapers write. If you are not in Thailand and rely solely on what those papers print for your information. Then you are taking an extremely biased view and just reposting that bias on here.
Tiradentes
02-22-14, 05:41
The effing red shits today threatened to march on BKK airport and shut it down if they don'why get paid for their rice scheme. For the last four months, the yellow shirts have been demonstrating. Yet none of them ever dared to mention BKK. I guess I was wrong. It is the red shirts, and not the yellow shirts, that are the bad sonsofbitches.
I just canceled my trip to BKK scheduled for next month. I just can't take this risk of getting stuck in a 3rd world shithole surrounded by savages.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/21/thailand-protest-update-4-pictures-tv-gr-idUSL3N0LQ0YH20140221
Western787
02-22-14, 06:40
I just can't take this risk of getting stuck in a 3rd world shithole surrounded by savages.Didn't you already visit Manila LAST year?
It's age 45 in Oz (unless it was changed in past 6 months.) Point system requires 100 pts and over 45yr maxes out at 99 points even if your work experience is world class. (Of course a corporation can sponsor someone over age 45 with guaranteed salary for 4 year visa if immigrant has special talents that no Aussie has. Pay must meet or exceed what an Aussie would be paid in that job.)It was changed in 2012, but there are so many classes and regulations that is difficult to say. Beside, there can be exemptions.
raising the upper age limit to less than 50 years
http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/_pdf/perm-sponsored-reforms.pdf
The effing red shits today threatened to march on BKK airport and shut it down if they don'why get paid for their rice scheme. For the last four months, the yellow shirts have been demonstrating. Yet none of them ever dared to mention BKKMaybe because they did that already in 2008, and worked against them.
[QUOTE=Tiradentes; 1535062]The effing red shits today threatened to March on BKK airport and shut it down if they don'why get paid for their rice scheme. For the last four months, the yellow shirts have been demonstrating. Yet none of them ever dared to mention BKK. I guess I was wrong. It is the red shirts, and not the yellow shirts, that are the bad sonsofbitches.
I just canceled my trip to BKK scheduled for next month. I just can't take this risk of getting stuck in a 3rd world shithole surrounded by savages.
But I think you are an american and that's without a Cap "A". You are in need of a BIG attitude adjustment. I am from the USA and there are more 'savages ' in the USA, especially I the current administration then there are here. There are 3rd world shit hole all over America caused by the 'War On Poverty', by the way. Not so here. China is more like your description if you open your eyes and smell the corruption and the pollution. Get a grip and stay home, your type is not what we need here. Even visiting. You make me ashamed to say we are from the same country. We have enough Euro Trash and that's not counting the Russians here, we don't need americantrach, too.
Tony Hoeprano
02-22-14, 09:14
Being surrounded by savages in a third world country? Try being at Walmart during Black Friday
[QUOTE=Tiradentes; 1535062]The effing red shits today threatened to March on BKK airport and shut it down if they don'why get paid for their rice scheme. For the last four months, the yellow shirts have been demonstrating. Yet none of them ever dared to mention BKK. I guess I was wrong. It is the red shirts, and not the yellow shirts, that are the bad sonsofbitches.
I just canceled my trip to BKK scheduled for next month. I just can't take this risk of getting stuck in a 3rd world shithole surrounded by savages.
But I think you are an american and that's without a Cap "A". You are in need of a BIG attitude adjustment. I am from the USA and there are more 'savages ' in the USA, especially I the current administration then there are here. There are 3rd world shit hole all over America caused by the 'War On Poverty', by the way. Not so here. China is more like your description if you open your eyes and smell the corruption and the pollution. Get a grip and stay home, your type is not what we need here. Even visiting. You make me ashamed to say we are from the same country. We have enough Euro Trash and that's not counting the Russians here, we don't need americantrach, too.Well put. The guy has probably never been to an actual shithole. Probably some effete Millenial.
I'd rather be stranded in BKK than in, say, Detroit, South Chicago, South Central LA, just to name a few. Now in these places you'll find more than a few savages.
Maybe because they did that already in 2008, and worked against them.Except that it was the YELLOW SHIRTS that did it in '08 (I KNOW. I was stuck in Cambodia and had to get back to the US via SINGAPORE. Which cost me for a ticket $200 out of pocket to get from P-P to Singapore). IF they want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, they just need to shut down the airports. AGAIN!
Except that it was the YELLOW SHIRTS that did it in '08 (I KNOW. I was stuck in Cambodia and had to get back to the US via SINGAPORE. Which cost me for a ticket $200 out of pocket to get from P-P to Singapore). IF they want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, they just need to shut down the airports. AGAIN!We all know who they were. I quoted the part of your posting that said Yellow, not Red.
Dash Riprock
02-22-14, 13:43
On the ground here and frankly outside of the protest areas it's business and fun as usual.
Dash Riprock
02-22-14, 14:00
Wrong again. The "Basic Combined Cash & Tip Minimum Wage Rate" is $7. 25. The employer may credit up to $5. 12 of tips against the $7. 25 minimum, assuming the employee makes at least that in tips. If not, he can't deduct the full amount. Therefore, the employee is guaranteed at least $7. 25 / hour. However, any decent waiter / waitress makes far more than the minimum wage.Easy street is far more accessible though. To each his / her own as to what is comfortable. But here my income (which is about equal to a US garbage collector's income. Granted, it's mostly interest and rental income so I'm not tipping dumpsters for it) means having a maid and driver is completely normal. And that goes for "successful" locals as well. Which from what I have seen can happen from running little roadside restaurants or hardware stores for 10-15 years. Back home you can give a lifetime to something and much more easily still be living far off Easy Street.
El Frances
02-23-14, 00:04
Paul, if you review your posts over the past month or so you can see you are clearly led by the headlines of The Nation and The Bangkok Post.
Lots of crazy propaganda written in them (and they are both biased against the government and PTP) is copied on to here by you, claiming this and that is going to happen and then later we all see it does not happen.
You would be far better served noting that The Nation and The Bangkok Post are extremely biased against Thaksin and his affiliated political parties. The Bangkok Post far more than the The Nation, but both are anti-PTP / anti-Thaksin.
This is because the owners of these papers are of course part of the supporters of the PAD / Democrats / PDRC.
You should rely more on the real situation in Thailand, and less on what those 2 biased newspapers write. If you are not in Thailand and rely solely on what those papers print for your information. Then you are taking an extremely biased view and just reposting that bias on here.I can only agree. I have followed these two websites for weeks and they are actually biased. They try to do it in a subtle way, allowing diverging opinions to be expressed, but it's not so difficult to see they are biased. I. E. Articles full of lies presented at the same level as other articles with factual analyses. Another example is that they always give the number of pro-government protesters (usually low, I. E 200) , but will never give numbers for PDRC protesters (they are only 80 people in some cases as I have observed) , never say the number of PDRC protesters has been steadily declining since weeks, etc.
Anyway, the press in English is biased in favor of the yellows, the Electoral Commission is biased, the Constitutional Court is biased, the anti-corruption commission is also probably biased, not talking about the army. On the other hand, the police is said to be biased in favor of the government, but as I read it in Bangkok Post, who knows.
Except that it was the YELLOW SHIRTS that did it in '08 (I KNOW. I was stuck in Cambodia and had to get back to the US via SINGAPORE. Which cost me for a ticket $200 out of pocket to get from P-P to Singapore). IF they want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, they just need to shut down the airports. AGAIN!Good point, and I suspect that's why YL & Co. Caved quickly. Now let's see if the farmers really do get their payments next week. Or will it be "Free beer tomorrow?"
Member #4698
02-23-14, 16:33
A bomb blast occurred yesterday afternoon outside the Big C on Rajadamri reportedly killing 2 including a 5 yr old boy and injuring scores of others.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/396589/2-killed-22-injured-at-ratchaprasong
This escalation is way too close for comfort occurring right in the heart of a major shopping and tourist center next to the Arnoma Hotel and across the street from the Central World Mall. It is also just down the street from Gaysorn Plaza and around the corner from the InterContinental and Minx.
Another bomb exploded yesterday in a market in the Trat Provence killing a 5 year old girl.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/396492/update-child-killed-in-trat-gun-attack-on-pdrc-rally
The reason for this increased violence is easy to understand. The Reds see the trajectory if they do nothing: a judicial coup and they don't like it. The question is whether these two explosions mark a change in strategy toward more violent means or they are the work of a few radical fringe elements. In any case BKK is getting hotter.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/396568/udd-picks-on-four-targets
Reds going on the offensive. '
I'm still planning to visit Bangkok for a few weeks in June and early July. Nothing short of armed insurrection and gun battles raging on Sukhumvit will keep me away.Me too, but I am due to arrive much earlier, mid-March, and nothing is going to keep me away either except a Swampy shut down or Marshall Law, tanks in the streets, 'armed insurrection and gun battles raging on Sukhumvit'. I don't want to sound alarmist, but this could happen. BKK is not that far from a real breakdown in civil order, but it hasn't happened yet. Yingluck, however, is not going to step down quietly, but it appears most likely she will be forced out. Feb 27 is a pivotal date. I will be in Phnom Penh for a week just prior to my scheduled flight to BKK. As I told Paul a couple of weeks ago, I did not like being exposed to the political risk so I purchased an option in the form of a plane ticket from Phnom Penh to KL in the advent of things going bad in BKK. Thus I am full covered and guaranteed a great time no matter what happens in BKK. The cost of my option was around $125 and there are no refunds. The alternative plan is to layover for a few nights in KL and then proceed on to the Philippines 3. 5 weeks ahead of my original trip plan.
I still want to go to BKK very badly. I am talking and texting with my favorite Go Go Girl, 'M', nearly every other day now. She says she is not 'able' to go to work. I don't know why. Her apartment is near Ramkhamhaeng University though and I guess she is either real risk adverse going by there or it takes too long to taxi to Cowboy or something, I don't know. Anyway, she sounds pretty sincere about the missing me part and I know exactly what that will translate into when and if we hook up: GFE and a lot of sex, sex, and more sex. Thus if I make it to BKK it will probably start off like my last trip ended with what I referred to as semi monogamy I. E. Seeing M every night, but hitting my favorite massage parlors in the afternoons and being open to late night possibilities at various clubs and discos. As you can see, I really want to go to BKK. I have my fingers crossed that it will be possible this time around. But if I can't visit BKK I won't let it bother me one little bit. I love Pinays and I have a favorite AC girl and a favorite Subic girl waiting for me with open arms. If I have to spend an additional 3. 5 weeks in the PI it will be just fine. I will make a ton of new sexy friends and I will have the time to take one of my two favorite girls to Palawan for a beach holiday.
Me too, but I am due to arrive much earlier, mid-March, and nothing is going to keep me away either except a Swampy shut down or Marshall Law, tanks in the streets, 'armed insurrection and gun battles raging on Sukhumvit'.Me too. I'll be out there March 8th, and I have no alternative plans. Obviously if Suvarnabhumi is shut then I won't be going, but otherwise I'm pretty relaxed about martial law (I was out there for the last coup. Tanks on the street, aa guns on the bridges) and it was OK.
Member #4698
02-23-14, 20:38
Me too. I'll be out there March 8th, and I have no alternative plans. Obviously if Suvarnabhumi is shut then I won't be going, but otherwise I'm pretty relaxed about martial law (I was out there for the last coup. Tanks on the street, aa guns on the bridges) and it was OK.Fortunately for me, I booked a roundtrip on United from FLL to MNL. The only reason I choose this route at the time was because it was a few dollars cheaper and an hour or so shorter than FLL to BKK. For the last few years I have included the PI in my annual Asian travel because I like the PI girls, they are very different than Thai girls, and love the less developed PI beaches, so I really don't care where my trip begins. It is always good no matter where the starting point. But if BKK was my entry point into Asia this trip I would be a little more concerned than I am. If they close BKK, you are fucked. Still, keep your fingers crossed, Mouse1. I think the odds are still strongly on your side that BKK will remain open. From talking to my Go Go friend, I detect business is really off and the girls miss us big time. It sounds like it is a punter's buffet. My bags are packed. I leave in 4 days. I can't wait, but 1st stop is Malate, then Jakarta, Phnom, and then BKK, Buddha willing.
It is interesting to hear about experiences during the last coup with the tanks on the street. Hopefully that won't happen this time.
Member #4263
02-23-14, 21:16
Fortunately for me, I booked a roundtrip on United from FLL to MNL. The only reason I choose this route at the time was because it was a few dollars cheaper and an hour or so shorter than FLL to BKK. For the last few years I have included the PI in my annual Asian travel because I like the PI girls, they are very different than Thai girls, and love the less developed PI beaches, so I really don't care where my trip begins. It is always good no matter where the starting point. But if BKK was my entry point into Asia this trip I would be a little more concerned than I am. If they close BKK, you are fucked. Still, keep your fingers crossed, Mouse1. I think the odds are still strongly on your side that BKK will remain open. From talking to my Go Go friend, I detect business is really off and the girls miss us big time. It sounds like it is a punter's buffet. My bags are packed. I leave in 4 days. I can't wait, but 1st stop is Malate, then Jakarta, Phnom, and then BKK, Buddha willing.
It is interesting to hear about experiences during the last coup with the tanks on the street. Hopefully that won't happen this time.I'll be there in late March and I sincerely hope that Suvarnabhumi won't be shut down. Dammit, my 1st trip in BKK and riots happening. Maybe it'll work out for me. Hope so.
Western787
02-23-14, 21:18
Fortunately for me, I booked a roundtrip on United from FLL to MNL. The only reason I choose this route at the time was because it was a few dollars cheaper and an hour or so shorter than FLL to BKK. For the last few years I have included the PI in my annual Asian travel because I like the PI girls, they are very different than Thai girls, and love the less developed PI beaches, so I really don't care where my trip begins. It is always good no matter where the starting point. But if BKK was my entry point into Asia this trip I would be a little more concerned than I am. If they close BKK, you are fucked. Still, keep your fingers crossed, Mouse1. I think the odds are still strongly on your side that BKK will remain open. From talking to my Go Go friend, I detect business is really off and the girls miss us big time. It sounds like it is a punter's buffet. My bags are packed. I leave in 4 days. I can't wait, but 1st stop is Malate, then Jakarta, Phnom, and then BKK, Buddha willing.
It is interesting to hear about experiences during the last coup with the tanks on the street. Hopefully that won't happen this time.While the violence and potential threat to ordinary tourists can and will probably get worse, , there are too many 400 million dollar jumbos flying in and out to close that airport more than a day or two before the Army takes over everything and forcibly reopenss it and that assuring the Rail LInk stays operating, In regard to BKK itself, IMHO there is a "too big to fail" element at work. Any closure would have extremely negative impacts in many other countries.
I would say that the Army wants to do what's right for the Army.
No, no, you misunderstand. The Army works for the same people that the Yellow protesters, Mr. Abhisit, the Democrats, and that whole side work for. It is one side, very united. The idea that the Army is something independent from that network is just obviously contrary to the evidence. If it were, all those protesters would be killed or imprisoned already by the government and their police - thus the evidence that the Army is 100% on that side is: 1. Thaksin himself is still an exile :) and 2. the Yellows pretty much do what they like in contrast to 3. what happened to the Reds in Lumpini.
Paul Kausch
02-25-14, 05:11
Paul, if you review your posts over the past month or so you can see you are clearly led by the headlines of The Nation and The Bangkok Post.Yep, that's exactly what I did. My point was to get the thread back on topic - Thai Politics.
The Nation and the Post know their audience and cater to it. I take articles in both with a grain of salt. I also think it's obvious the EC, the NACC and various other Court have their biases which are driving their decisions. At least half the government bureaucracy supports the opposition as well. The military's high command also supports the opposition and hates the Shinawatras.
The information I believe to be most credible comes from knowledgeable people in Bangkok, some of whom I've known and worked with for as long as 20 years, and whose information and opinions I trust; some are Thai and some non-Thai.
I'm not going to defend Suthep, the other leaders of the opposition and their goals; however, the vast majority of the violence has been perpetrated by Thaksin's mercenaries. And my statements about how much money Thaksin has stolen do not come from the Nation and Post, they come from credible sources. Similarly, my statements about the disaster Thailand is headed for if the country is not rid of the Shinawatras and their cronies as soon as possible comes from multiple credit sources.
It looks like the army may be getting ready to step in, albeit reluctantly. No one seems to be in charge at the moment and the kingdom is sliding towards civil war.
Paul Kausch
02-27-14, 01:14
It looks like the army may be getting ready to step in, albeit reluctantly. No one seems to be in charge at the moment and the kingdom is sliding towards civil war.Interesting that you bring that up. For the last couple of days I've been wondering about that too. Some of Prayuth Chan-ocha recent remarks have caught my attention.
Are you following Yingluck and the NACC? Seems it won't matter what she says. They're going to indict her. Which means she will have to resign. And the situation with the senate complicates the impeachment hearings. It will depend on how the court defines a quorum. I read a few hours ago the red shirts are blocking the NACC location to prevent tomorrow's hearings. How do you think that will play out?
Interesting that you bring that up. For the last couple of days I've been wondering about that too. Some of Prayuth Chan-ocha recent remarks have caught my attention.
Are you following Yingluck and the NACC? Seems it won't matter what she says. They're going to indict her. Which means she will have to resign. And the situation with the senate complicates the impeachment hearings. It will depend on how the court defines a quorum. I read a few hours ago the red shirts are blocking the NACC location to prevent tomorrow's hearings. How do you think that will play out?I do not follow Thai politics as closely as I did once. My comments stem from messages I am receiving from Bangkok from Thai who are in the middle of things. I stopped making predictions long ago but night now it seems the army is getting off the fence. Prayuth is not a strong leader and really doesn't want to bring the army back into politics. Let's see what happens.
Paul Kausch
02-27-14, 05:15
I do not follow Thai politics as closely as I did once. My comments stem from messages I am receiving from Bangkok from Thai who are in the middle of things. I stopped making predictions long ago but night now it seems the army is getting off the fence. Prayuth is not a strong leader and really doesn't want to bring the army back into politics. Let's see what happens.And he retires in September.
Wolvenvacht
02-27-14, 08:14
And he retires in September.But in the interest of the Kingdom, no doubt he may be found willing to reluctantly shoulder the burden of command somewhat longer.
El Frances
02-27-14, 08:55
Interesting that you bring that up. For the last couple of days I've been wondering about that too. Some of Prayuth Chan-ocha recent remarks have caught my attention.
Are you following Yingluck and the NACC? Seems it won't matter what she says. They're going to indict her. Which means she will have to resign. And the situation with the senate complicates the impeachment hearings. It will depend on how the court defines a quorum. I read a few hours ago the red shirts are blocking the NACC location to prevent tomorrow's hearings. How do you think that will play out?I think the PDRC and the "establishment" (EC, CC, NACC, etc.) have blindly opened Pandora's box. There is now a precedent being progressively build that (in the name of freedom of expression and other bullshit arguments) it is not illegal to:
- block the city,
- block and invade government offices, police stations, companies and other institutions.
- prevent candidates from registering for elections.
- block elections,
- etc.
So we already know all what the reds can do if the establishment succeeds in getting the current majority out of power. The reds are just starting to apply PDRC's tactics. Now that Pandora's box is open, Thailand may well experience a long period of chaos.
Paul Kausch
02-27-14, 09:29
I think the PDRC and the "establishment" (EC, CC, NACC, etc.) have blindly opened Pandora's box. There is now a precedent being progressively build that (in the name of freedom of expression and other bullshit arguments) it is not illegal to:
- etc.
So we already know all what the reds can do if the establishment succeeds in getting the current majority out of power. The reds are just starting to apply PDRC's tactics. Now that Pandora's box is open, Thailand may well experience a long period of chaos.Did they act blindly or just taker advantage of an opportunity they might not have in the future? The amnesty bill was a very stupid and clumsy move. It presented the opposition with an opportunity that they took advantage of while they still had control of over half of the bureaucracy and the courts.
As far as numbers of protesters and violence are concerned, weren't the red shirts actions in 2010 far more extreme? I think if anything the PDRC is applying the red shirts' tactics, only they are going about it much more intelligently, and using the courts and their allies to facilitate their demonstrations. Frankly, as a group I think the opposition is much smarter than Thaksin and his cronies. And they hold a better hand. Are they smart enough to play it wisely? Is Thaksin rash enough to do something stupid?
I too expect things to drag out for sometime and potentially get much worse. There will be negotiations between intermediaries that may fail. Yingluck may refuse to step down after she is indicted. The army may step in. There could be a violent insurrection in response to this. After being kicked out of office Yingluck might establish a "legitimate" government in Chiang Mai in opposition to an imposed new government in Bangkok. The north and northeast may begin to resemble the south. There may be sporadic violence in Bangkok. Who knows? I sure don't. I just follow the events and wonder,"What next?"
Still looking forward to my June trip. :)
.
I'm not going to defend Suthep, the other leaders of the opposition and their goals; however, the vast majority of the violence has been perpetrated by Thaksin's mercenaries.Paul,
If you refer to the violence of the past few weeks targeting the PDRC demonstrators - I would not be too sure about this. Consider the option that Suthep attacks his own supporters to instigate more trouble with the target to finally get the army involved.
Thaksin / Government / PTP cannot win anything with creating violence / clashes between their supporters and the demonstrators. They were quite successful to keep the more militant parts of the red shirts out of the game. Up to now.
I consider it highly likely that Suthep and the people around him plan and arrange those attacks. Though there should be no doubt that both Thaksin and Suthep belong into prison - Suthep ranks far higher on the "pig-o-meter" than Thaksin. Only a few Thai politicians (e. G. Chalerm) have managed to surpass him on this scale.
Giotto
LukeSkywalker
02-28-14, 06:56
Suthep sounds like a greedy, unreasonable, opportunistic asshole who could easily order a few of his supporters shot, then blame the shooting on Thaksin to stir up more hatred and troubles.
These protesters are creating public disturbances and hazards, clear violations the basic laws of any country. They should just be arrested and thrown in jail for a couple days. I bet they won't be causing problems for others in the future.
To me Thais are just not civilized in many ways, including the ways they try to affect changes in politics and government policies.
Paul,
If you refer to the violence of the past few weeks targeting the PDRC demonstrators. I would not be too sure about this. Consider the option that Suthep attacks his own supporters to instigate more trouble with the target to finally get the army involved.
Thaksin / Government / PTP cannot win anything with creating violence / clashes between their supporters and the demonstrators. They were quite successful to keep the more militant parts of the red shirts out of the game. Up to now.
I consider it highly likely that Suthep and the people around him plan and arrange those attacks. Though there should be no doubt that both Thaksin and Suthep belong into prison. Suthep ranks far higher on the "pig-o-meter" than Thaksin. Only a few Thai politicians (e. G. Chalerm) have managed to surpass him on this scale.
Giotto
Paul Kausch
02-28-14, 08:55
I consider it highly likely that Suthep and the people around him plan and arrange those attacks. Though there should be no doubt that both Thaksin and Suthep belong into prison. Suthep ranks far higher on the "pig-o-meter" than Thaksin. Only a few Thai politicians (e. G. Chalerm) have managed to surpass him on this scale.
Giotto
Suthep sounds like a greedy, unreasonable, opportunistic asshole who could easily order a few of his supporters shot, then blame the shooting on Thaksin to stir up more hatred and troubles.This is a topic for debate. I follow the feeble attempts at coverage by the western media and in the comments section notice a plethora of entries claiming exactly what you are saying.
I agree with your assessment of Suthep. Though I'm not convinced he's worse than Thaksin.
It is possible some, maybe most of the violence is staged by the PDRC. As you point out, they certainly seem to gain more from it than Pheu Thai. And certainly the thinking people in Pheu Thai understand very well they are best served by not engaging in violence and keeping counter protests under control.
But I understand some of the perpetrators have been caught on video surveillance cameras and have been identified. I understand at least a few are known Pheu Thai political operatives. And even though their identities are known the government has made no attempt to apprehend them. I understand some of the perpetrators of the violence have been identified and are out of uniform police officers; and generally the police support Pheu Thai. I also understand that the shooting that occurred when police tried to take over the protest site were between the police (officers behind the riot police armed with rifles firing into the protesters) and out of uniform military special forces personnel dispersed among the protesters. I understand that late last year it was observed that Cambodian mercenaries, the "men in black," were entering the country. It seems "men in black" is now being used as a catch all phrase for "security personal" because they wear masks and dark glasses to hid their identities, but originally the phrase referred to the Cambodian mercenaries the red shirts employed during the 2010 protests. I have no direct knowledge to verify or refute any of these understandings of mine. These are things I have read and heard from several sources with some credibility. I wouldn't stake my life on the veracity of any of it.
It seems the red shirts have a history of violence. In 2010 they did considerable damage to private property. Yes the government killed almost 100 of the protesters, but if the Wall Street protesters had started to burn down the New York Stock Exchange I have no doubt the US Government (New York City) would have violently suppressed the protesters with considerable loss of life. About 24 hours ago I read that militant red shirt leaders are calling for the formation of a 600,000 man militia. The language of the announcement makes it very clear they are to fight an insurrection if and when Yingluck is deposed.
I respect your opinions. You are obviously intelligent, well informed and a reasoned thinker. But I think I am right, while recognizing I could be wrong. I worry that before long these events will come to a violent head; and there will be no doubt people on both sides are killing each other. Lust for power and greed are certainly very deadly sins.
Such a sad situation. Rice farmers are suffering terribly. Intelligent ordinary people long for a less corrupt, more progressive and transparent democratic nation. What are their choices: Thaksin or Suthep? So very sad.
There is no real evidence that the 'men in black' were Cambodian. There are of course ethnic Khymer in Thailand many of whom come from Red areas.
As for a third party provoking violence, the Navy SEALS keep being found in and around the PDRC areas often armed & the previously low profile Rear Admiral Winai Klom-in now regularly makes pronouncements that suggest he is on the interventionist wing of the Thai armed forces. The people most likely to be involved in the violence are the Red shirts as they have most to lose.
The Red shirts are likely to have burned Central Dept in 2010, but only after 100+ were massacred by snipers. Most were unarmed protesters sheltering in what Pathumwanaram were killed by snipers from the BTS rail line above. In other words there violence occurred after extreme violence was dine to them. The willingness for the army to use armed force against the Reds can be juxtaposed with their complete unwillingness to take any action against the Yellows when they seized both airports or for the current armed insurrection.
Paul Kausch
02-28-14, 10:32
Suthep sounds like a greedy, unreasonable, opportunistic asshole who could easily order a few of his supporters shot, then blame the shooting on Thaksin to stir up more hatred and troubles.
These protesters are creating public disturbances and hazards, clear violations the basic laws of any country. They should just be arrested and thrown in jail for a couple days. I bet they won't be causing problems for others in the future.
To me Thais are just not civilized in many ways, including the ways they try to affect changes in politics and government policies.My understanding is Suthep is just the public face and mouth piece. Others behind the scene are the real leaders and planners.
Are the Thais less civilized than the Ukrainians? Or are neither uncivilized? I think in both instances you have corrupt politicians on both sides, but many of the actual protesters are people who are feed up and see no alternative other than to take to the streets.
The Bangkok Shutdown is being Shutdown.
As a complete failure and with basically only a few hundred people at the rally sites Suthep has given up with the shutdown.
They are now going to shutdown all their protest sites and just have one at Lumpini Park.
He has done his job, his job was to stop government working and ensure the farmers could not be paid by sabotaging the government. The NACC now comes into play and they will try to indict Yingluck on trumped up false charges. This is the same NACC who refused to investigate Abhisit and the Democrats in 2010 when exactly the same charges were brought against Abhisit for his failed rice scheme which lost nearly 200 billion baht.
Of course, nobody is surprised the non-independent and totally biased NACC refused to investigate Abhisit and now are only too happy to fast track the very same charges against Yingluck.
However, if the NACC does find Yingluck guilty and the process of a judicial coup starts. You can expect the red shirts to come out and start showing their force.
A judicial coup or a military coup could spark war on the streets with red shirts showing that the majority will no longer be ruled and abused by the minority.
TIT. This Is Thailand.
I think the PDRC and the "establishment" (EC, CC, NACC, etc.) have blindly opened Pandora's box. There is now a precedent being progressively build that (in the name of freedom of expression and other bullshit arguments) it is not illegal to:
- block the city,
- block and invade government offices, police stations, companies and other institutions.
- prevent candidates from registering for elections.
- block elections,
- etc.
So we already know all what the reds can do if the establishment succeeds in getting the current majority out of power. The reds are just starting to apply PDRC's tactics. Now that Pandora's box is open, Thailand may well experience a long period of chaos.No, they can't do any of that, El Frances. The reason the Yellow side can do those things is because it has the army protecting it.
I must say that for objectiveness, form and tone, the discussion here is 100 times better than in a very well know thai forum for foreigners, where the average member is clearly a sex and money starved half-failure, but takes pleasure in using the word "sexpat" as much as possible to refer to those that aren't, beside showing fascist or naive but always judgeful attitudes or simply the mental level of a 13yrs old.
Instead I appreciate all contributions here and much often agree with them.
Paul Kausch
02-28-14, 20:15
There is no real evidence that the 'men in black' were Cambodian. There are of course ethnic Khymer in Thailand many of whom come from Red areas.
As for a third party provoking violence, the Navy SEALS keep being found in and around the PDRC areas often armed & the previously low profile Rear Admiral Winai Klom-in now regularly makes pronouncements that suggest he is on the interventionist wing of the Thai armed forces. The people most likely to be involved in the violence are the Red shirts as they have most to lose.
The Red shirts are likely to have burned Central Dept in 2010, but only after 100+ were massacred by snipers. Most were unarmed protesters sheltering in what Pathumwanaram were killed by snipers from the BTS rail line above. In other words there violence occurred after extreme violence was dine to them. The willingness for the army to use armed force against the Reds can be juxtaposed with their complete unwillingness to take any action against the Yellows when they seized both airports or for the current armed insurrection.
The Cambodian origins of the men in black comes from Thai military intelligence. I think it is clear the military leadership supports the opposition and wants the country rid of Thaksin and Pheu Thai. Seems this is also true of the courts, most of the bureaucracy, the banking and financial industry and leaders in other industries. I followed events in 2010 from a distance. I was reading primarily the British media at that time and understood the protesters became violent and started to damage private property before they were fired on.
The Cambodian origins of the men in black comes from Thai military intelligence. I think it is clear the military leadership supports the opposition and wants the country rid of Thaksin and Pheu Thai.Be aware that in 2010 men in black were shooting on both sides. A lot of accusations, blaming, trials followed, but no justice or truth. Also, actions can be taken against own "allies" to blame on the opponents and justify further violence.
Western787
02-28-14, 22:33
The question is always do you want to fight over the pie and possible destroy the entire pie. or compromise and keep the pie expanding. Its a socialism vs (hybrid) capitalism type of debate, not unlike what is happening in the USA.
As Winston Churchill once said "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”
Follow the money. Obviously the big money interests have issued warnings what's going to unfold if the status quo was not changed: DISINVESTMENT, and DEPRESSION by summer.
The question no doubt that has been posed is "Do you really want Kiev"?"Do you really want Cairo"?
In the end its about protecting the the golden goose, the amount of bahts at stake when one of the favored tourist destinations in the world and a country that had been enjoying huge inflows of investment capital- is on track for civil war. EVERYBODY loses when that happens.
The consolidation serves a number of purposes 1. Deflects blame to the Red Shirts it they continue the violence. 2 reduces the likely target zones, UNLESS the Red Shirts go random (violence outside of somewhat predictable zones and situations) and thus putting tourists at increased risk and thus all but guaranteeing an Army coup.
If the Red Shirts ever went random, you are looking at a TOTAL COLLAPSE of the tourist industry, not a 30% hit.
LukeSkywalker
02-28-14, 22:49
I admit I am not in Thailand and not involved in the actions, so I don't really know who are shooting whom. Even for people who live there, involve in and actively follow, investigate and verify facts, it would still be very difficult get all the truths and objective facts in this chaos.
My views are from a detached person, with no emotional baggage, looking in from the outside at the continual turmoils in Thailand.
All these demonstrations and disturbances only weaken and cause hardships for the whole country, not helping anyone. But many other countries and entities would gain from a divisive Thailand immersed in a civil war. I could see how foreign entities or countries could gain by having agents shoot at both sides to worsen the bad blood and deepen the wounds between these factions.
Meanwhile what the fuck are the stupid Army and Navy generals doing taking sides in the country politics? Their jobs are to protect the country and her people from foreign intervention and invasion. But they are instead fucking around, taking political sides, aiding and abetting foreign agents.
These stupid, treasonous generals are failing to do their job, disobeying orders from their legitimately-elected government, refusing to uphold the laws and constitution of their country, betraying the trust of their own people, ultimately back stabbing their King for foreign countries to curry personal gains.
These Thai generals, with their troops and weapons entrusted to them by their government, are betraying the people and doing serious harms to their own country. They should be quickly arrested and trialed for treason.
Be aware that in 2010 men in black were shooting on both sides. A lot of accusations, blaming, trials followed, but no justice or truth. Also, actions can be taken against own "allies" to blame on the opponents and justify further violence.
I admit I am not in Thailand and not involved in the actions, so I don't really know .I think you're correct in saying that you don't know. Consider the background facts first. Thailand is not a "normal country" politically. Beside the trivia figure of 18 coups, you must consider the oligarchical nature of the system, the long standing invasive role of the Royal (s) in politics, the gullibility and cheap nationalism of the electorate, the fact that YL is an intellectually limited person remotely controlled by her fugitive brother, the widespread corruption and inefficiecy (its best example in the rice pledging scheme) , and many others.
All these things are deeply ingrained in society and cannot be changed unless Thais want it, and apparently they don't.
In other words "Understand Thailand" (by that, I do not mean adopt flawed thinking or bend over) , do not try to always apply Western logic and principles, because one will be weared out in trying it. That is key to either discussing politics, survive living here, or just enjoy a vacation.
Paul Kausch
03-01-14, 03:19
I could see how foreign entities or countries could gain by having agents shoot at both sides to worsen the bad blood and deepen the wounds between these factions.This is an interesting thought. I'm not sure I believe it, but it is interesting.
Meanwhile what the fuck are the stupid Army and Navy generals doing taking sides in the country politics?
These stupid, treasonous generals are failing to do their job, disobeying orders from their legitimately-elected government, refusing to uphold the laws and constitution of their country, betraying the trust of their own people, ultimately back stabbing their King for foreign countries to curry personal gains.
These Thai generals, with their troops and weapons entrusted to them by their government, are betraying the people and doing serious harms to their own country. They should be quickly arrested and trialed for treason.Nominally, Thailand's military reports to the King. In fact it is managed by the Ministry of Defense headed by the Minister of Defense, a member of the cabinet. The problem is Yingluck is managing a caretaker government with very limited powers. And of course this is moot as the military leadership opposed Thaksin and his Pheu Thai party. As the courts have ruled the protests are legal and the government has no authority to disperse the encampments even though they block public roads and government buildings it's not clear the military is doing anything illegal, based on what is considered legal in Thailand.
All of this would be strangely amusing were it not such a serious problem that has caused a lose of life. It's a problem when you have a country with little democratic experience, a demagogue like Thaksin who is robbing the country blind while running it from Dubai. Then add in the opposition, the crooked Bangkok elite. Poor rice farmers are suffering and desperate to be paid. Ordinary Thais long for an honest, transparent government. Both may have a long wait.
Paul Kausch
03-01-14, 03:24
In other words "Understand Thailand" (by that, I do not mean adopt flawed thinking or bend over) , do not try to always apply Western logic and principles, because one will be weared out in trying it. That is key to either discussing politics, survive living here, or just enjoy a vacation.
Good post.
I've read articles that characterize these events as a country struggling with a transition from a feudal system run by the Bangkok elite for the primary benefit of Bangkok to a democratically elected government that is shifting the power, and the spoils, to other regions and the new rulers own pockets. What's your take on this?
The question is always do you want to fight over the pie and possible destroy the entire pie. or compromise and keep the pie expanding. Its a socialism vs (hybrid) capitalism type of debate, not unlike what is happening in the USA.I don't think it is. The political goals of both main parties are much more short sighted and opportunistic rather than fighting for values, I can think of many examples. Nobody is battling for true reform or improvement, but just for power and the money that follows. Masses do not even have an idea about these concepts or systems.
I do not even agree with the rest of your posting, that appears superficial and as the usual in the foreigner view, overemphasizing the importance of the toursm industry. I also think that under no circumstances (forget civil war that will never happen). Disinvestment is just waged but not applied, even if it was it could be reversed in a blink of an eye with Thailand quick to adopt AFTA, the World Economic Forum drectives, or Buddha forbids, remove just some limitations to foreign business an personal ownership. And one quality that I recognize to Thais is that they never stop working ad reconstructing, and that they can tell when enough is enough. So IMHO, no end in sight for Thailand and not even much change.
Paul Kausch
03-01-14, 04:52
The Bangkok Post updated an article about remarks Prayuth made earlier in the day. Here are some of the things he said.
"Every situation has to be sorted out through legal means, but if they fail, a special method may be needed. But what this special method might be remains to be seen."
""One can envisage that the situation might end up with a coup. I can't promise if there will be another coup or not. I admit it would not be legal. But every coup is meant to end a crisis."
The Bangkok Post updated an article about remarks Prayuth made earlier in the day. Here are some of the things he said.
"Every situation has to be sorted out through legal means, but if they fail, a special method may be needed. But what this special method might be remains to be seen."
""One can envisage that the situation might end up with a coup. I can't promise if there will be another coup or not. I admit it would not be legal. But every coup is meant to end a crisis."Well, that was an easy prediction since Dems boycotted elections. We can speculate how and when. Street rumors says a deadline of April has been given.
Paul Kausch
03-01-14, 06:12
Well, that was an easy prediction since Dems boycotted elections. We can speculate how and when. Street rumors says a deadline of April has been given.April makes sense, and not because Sangkran falls in the middle of the month. NACC wants to hand down their indictment by mid-March. That would require Yingluck to resign. Since she was ordered to appear before the court she has been making statements about the legitimacy of the NACC and saying things that could be interpreted as hints she may refuse to resign. Does the street say anything about her setting up a government in exile in Chiang Mai? Frankly, I suspect the street knows far more about what is really going on than the media, or at least what it is telling clueless people like me what is really happening.
Western787
03-01-14, 08:28
forget civil war that will never happen. Disinvestment is just waged but not applied.Nobody can guarantee there won't be a civil war.
The term DISINVESTMENT has a 2 part definition. I was actually referring to part 2, with part 1 being more remote but over time entirely possible.
1. The action of an organization or government selling or liquidating an asset or subsidiary. Also known as "divestiture, A company or government organization will divest an asset or subsidiary as a strategic move for the company, planning to put the proceeds from the divestiture to better use that garners a higher return on investment.
2. A reduction in capital expenditure, or the decision of a company, organization, or other entity not to replenish depleted capital goods. A company will likely not replace capital goods or continue to invest in certain assets unless it feels it is receiving a return that justifies the investment. If there is a better place to invest, they may deplete certain capital goods and invest in other more profitable assets.
The status quo (ongoing shutdown demonstrations at key intersections, and intermittent violence and a partly crippled tourist economy) was risking the entire economy, and this goes far beyond tourism itself
Western787
03-01-14, 08:35
forget civil war that will never happen. Disinvestment is just waged but not applied.Nobody can guarantee there won't be a civil war.
The term DISINVESTMENT has a 2 part definition. I was actually referring to part 2, with part 1 being more remote but over time entirely possible.
1. The action of an organization or government selling or liquidating an asset or subsidiary. Also known as "divestiture, A company or government organization will divest an asset or subsidiary as a strategic move for the company, planning to put the proceeds from the divestiture to better use that garners a higher return on investment.
2. A reduction in capital expenditure, or the decision of a company, organization, or other entity not to replenish depleted capital goods. A company will likely not replace capital goods or continue to invest in certain assets unless it feels it is receiving a return that justifies the investment. If there is a better place to invest, they may deplete certain capital goods and invest in other more profitable assets.
The status quo (ongoing shutdown demonstrations at key intersections, and intermittent violence and a partly crippled tourist economy) was risking the entire economy, and this goes far beyond tourism itself
Meanwhile what the fuck are the stupid Army and Navy generals doing taking sides in the country politics? Their jobs are to protect the country and her people from foreign intervention and invasion. But they are instead fucking around, taking political sides, aiding and abetting foreign agents.
No, the military is not there to protect the country from outside threats, it is there to control the people inside the country. That's what its for in most countries. It is easy to be confused about this if one is from the USA or other places where the populace is so indoctrinated and obedient that it is self-policing.
These stupid, treasonous generals are failing to do their job, disobeying orders from their legitimately-elected government, refusing to uphold the laws and constitution of their country, betraying the trust of their own people, ultimately back stabbing <someone> for foreign countries to curry personal gains.
No. As Prem said 'the government is merely the rider of the horse. The owner of the horse is <.....>'.
Wolvenvacht
03-03-14, 08:38
As the courts have ruled the protests are legal and the government has no authority to disperse the encampments even though they block public roads and government buildings it's not clear the military is doing anything illegal, based on what is considered legal in Thailand.That is a very Asian or more exactly, Chinese idea: the Government has lost the "Mandate of Heaven" and then it has lost authority and the people may rise to replace it. In Thailand of course, the question is now: who is the "people"?
Paul Kausch
03-03-14, 12:03
That is a very Asian or more exactly, Chinese idea: the Government has lost the "Mandate of Heaven" and then it has lost authority and the people may rise to replace it. In Thailand of course, the question is now: who is the "people"?Yes, and that is interesting as the government enjoys the support of a majority of the electorate. A very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist has proposed an interesting variation on one person, one vote; one vote for every dollar in income taxes one pays. Some people count more.
Yes, and that is interesting as the government enjoys the support of a majority of the electorate. A very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist has proposed an interesting variation on one person, one vote; one vote for every dollar in income taxes one pays. Some people count more.A more interesting situation would be:
One vote per person serving the people by being a policeman.
One vote per person serving the people being in the army / navy / air force.
Half a vote per family member of anyone in the police / military.
These people give up their lives to protect others and are far more valuable.
Then 0. 1 vote per other person in the country.
What is more important. Serving the people and protecting the people OR a rice tycoon who does nothing for society except bleeds it dry and put others into modern day slavery?
A more interesting situation would be:
One vote per person serving the people by being a policeman.
One vote per person serving the people being in the army / navy / air force.
Half a vote per family member of anyone in the police / military.
These people give up their lives to protect others and are far more valuable.
Then 0. 1 vote per other person in the country.
What is more important. Serving the people and protecting the people OR a rice tycoon who does nothing for society except bleeds it dry and put others into modern day slavery?I would question the assumption that most Thai policeman "serve and protect" the people.
Yes, and that is interesting as the government enjoys the support of a majority of the electorate. A very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist has proposed an interesting variation on one person, one vote; one vote for every dollar in income taxes one pays. Some people count more.Which isn't necessarily a bad idea. The US Constitution, as originally written, forbade income tax, all taxes had to be levied proportionally between the states and only property owners could vote. This prevented a majority of "poor" from ganging up on a minority of "rich." Hmm. Where have we seen this lately?
Having skin in the game makes you take your voting responsibilities much more seriously. Today, instead of property ownership perhaps paying taxes would be a good prerequisite to voting.
Paul Kausch
03-05-14, 04:16
Which isn't necessarily a bad idea. The US Constitution, as originally written, forbade income tax, all taxes had to be levied proportionally between the states and only property owners could vote. This prevented a majority of "poor" from ganging up on a minority of "rich." Hmm. Where have we seen this lately?
Having skin in the game makes you take your voting responsibilities much more seriously. Today, instead of property ownership perhaps paying taxes would be a good prerequisite to voting.What part of the US Constitution do you think prohibits income tax? Curious because I've heard so many different sections cited.
Tom Perkins (as in Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Bauer) believes for each dollar of income tax paid the individual should get one vote. So if you pay $5000 in income tax you get 5000 votes. If Tom Perkins pays $1,000,000 in income tax (and as he has a net worth of US$8billion he may very well pay more), he gets 1,000,000 votes. It would probably be simpler to let all the registered voters who are billionaires get together and decide amongst themselves who will serve in congress and assume the presidency. ;)
Almost all my income comes from dividends, interest and long term capital gains, which are taxed at lower rates than wages. So even though my income may be higher than some working stiff, because my taxes are lower I get fewer votes. Is this fair? I'm being penalized for hard work, prudent saving, smart investing and having the luxury of retiring so some wet-behind-the-ear millennial can try to take my place in the workforce. Is that fair to me?
I would question the assumption that most Thai policeman "serve and protect" the people.It is a common misconception that police in the US "Serve and Protect." That is not at all what they do; never has been.
What they do is enforce the law. I wish they did serve and protect.
What part of the US Constitution do you think prohibits income tax?Truth be told with a sovereign fiat currency income tax is not necessary. The gov does not need to tax to raise revenue as it is the sole source of said currency. Property taxes are needed to keep the prop market honest, but income taxes are only needed to control inflation when the economy gets overheated. Modern Monetary Theory is quite fascinating. Read some Warren Mosler and Randall Wray if you have not already. Most folks really don't understand the Fed and central banking and how it works. They vilify it and cry for a return to specie currency, which is one of the most foolish things I have ever heard. Gov "debt" is not the same as a family's debt and I laugh when I hear people try to compare them. The US will never default on its debt. It never has to. It is simply a political scare tactic.
The gov needs to keep its focus on one thing; creating full employment. If private industry won't hire then the gov needs to pick up the slack through massive infrastructure projects and the like. Consumer spending is what keeps an economy going. Economies are demand driven. We know supply side is a crock. It is one of the main reasons we are in this mess.
Actually the PT gov in Thailand is all for these large projects as they realize it will mean employment. Of course it also means more opportunity to steal, which is why the PDRC is against them. BTW, check out how military spending increased after the 06 coup and under the Dems.
Which isn't necessarily a bad idea. The US Constitution, as originally written, forbade income tax, all taxes had to be levied proportionally between the states and only property owners could vote. This prevented a majority of "poor" from ganging up on a minority of "rich." Hmm. Where have we seen this lately?
Having skin in the game makes you take your voting responsibilities much more seriously. Today, instead of property ownership perhaps paying taxes would be a good prerequisite to voting.The US was formed by wealthy landowners who wanted to form a gov based on their idea of "liberty" and "freedom." Sadly their ideas were such that the landowner was considered superior as was the "white man." Humans were allowed to own other humans until the 1860s, long after European nations had done away with slavery. Labor laws always lagged behind Europe. The US was truly a plantation nation. This was a bit different between WWII and the mid-70s, but since Reagan we have seen a return to that Plantation Nation where workers are second class citizens and corp heads and bankers rule the roost.
EU nations have evened this out a bit with universal health care, low cost education. 4 weeks paid vacation, shorter work weeks in some cases, overtime, punitive severance laws, a good retirement, and high taxes being levied on the wealthy. I for one applaud them and think all of those elements make for a better and in my opinion more "free" society as you are far less enslaved to your employer. I continue to be amazed that so many of my fellow Americans, even those with little means, cannot see how they are getting the short end of the stick and celebrate the fact that they are not like those "socialist" Europeans.
Of course I will not see the US progress to this point in my lifetime. The wealthy control the gov and the people have no say.
Want to tie votes to taxes? Well, here is an idea for you. Give votes on the % of one's money that is paid. That way the wealthy who want influence yet seek to pay less will have fewer votes and the middle class who traditionally pay higher percentages than the wealthy will have more say. Combine this with a ban on PACs, term limits, a law stating that someone who serves in gov cannot work for companies that do biz with the gov for 5 years before and 10 years after serving, and make sure all campaigns are publicly financed and you might be onto something.
Paul Kausch
03-05-14, 07:42
It is a common misconception that police in the US "Serve and Protect." That is not at all what they do; never has been.
What they do is enforce the law. I wish they did serve and protect.They are called law enforcement officers. When I lived in the Western Great Lakes region of the USA I spent time in towns and small cities with populations ranging from a couple thousand up to about 25,000. In these communities the police had a serve and protect attitude. For example, I'd hear stories about a fellow having a few to many and getting pulled over. Was he arrested? No. The officer made sure the car was safe, secure and locked; gave the guy a ride home; and checked on the car a couple of times during the night.
Paul Kausch
03-05-14, 07:53
The gov needs to keep its focus on one thing; creating full employment. If private industry won't hire then the gov needs to pick up the slack through massive infrastructure projects and the like.Seems government has other important functions such as maintaining national security, an impartial judicial system and the rule of law. I am not making a statement about whether the USA defense budget is too big, small or just right. That would no doubt lead to a flurry of posts.
In the 1980s Reagan spent billions on infrastructure to boast employment and the USA economy. He was also the first peacetime president to run up huge deficits to boast the economy. Reagan inherited a debt of 900 billion. When he left office it was at 2.8 trillion. Isn't deficit spending to stimulate economic activity a Keynesian principle? ;)
Paul Kausch
03-05-14, 08:10
The US was formed by wealthy landowners who wanted to form a gov based on their idea of "liberty" and "freedom." Sadly their ideas were such that the landowner was considered superior as was the "white man." Humans were allowed to own other humans until the 1860sI believe those New England Yankee farmers and merchants would feel unfairly slighted by this statement. I also overheard conversations among historians in faculty lounges talking about how Jefferson, Madison and others wrote and talked among themselves about how slavery was fundamentally incompatible with the principles the USA was founded on; and that there was a majority opinion among the New England delegates writing the constitution to abolish slavery within the document. Nothing was done at that time because it was obviously a deal breaker. I'm no historian, but the people engaged in the conversations I overheard were experts on the topic.
EU nations have evened this out a bit with universal health care, low cost education. 4 weeks paid vacation, shorter work weeks in some cases, overtime, punitive severance laws, a good retirement, and high taxes being levied on the wealthy.I think these are great ideas, but isn't Europe running into trouble trying to pay for these benefits? And in the case of some countries such as France these are such a severe burden on small businesses that expansion and job creation is stifled? I knew several Frenchmen in San Francisco who owned successful small businesses in the bay area who were adamant the prohibitive start-up costs to meet the government's financial requirements would have made it impossible for them to even start their businesses in France.
Wolvenvacht
03-05-14, 08:29
What part of the US Constitution do you think prohibits income tax? Curious because I've heard so many different sections cited.
Tom Perkins (as in Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Bauer) believes for each dollar of income tax paid the individual should get one vote. So if you pay $5000 in income tax you get 5000 votes. If Tom Perkins pays $1, 000, 000 in income tax (and as he has a net worth of US$8billion he may very well pay more) , he gets 1, 000, 000 votes. It would probably be simpler to let all the registered voters who are billionaires get together and decide amongst themselves who will serve in congress and assume the presidency. .
Almost all my income comes from dividends, interest and long term capital gains, which are taxed at lower rates than wages. So even though my income may be higher than some working stiff, because my taxes are lower I get fewer votes. Is this fair? I'm being penalized for hard work, prudent saving, smart investing and having the luxury of retiring so some wet-behind-the-ear millennial can try to take my place in the workforce. Is that fair to me?This all has been tried and failed utterly and miserably. Most European countries at one time or another had a scheme for multiple votes: landowners got extra votes; people who paid above a certain amount of tax got extra votes; heads of family got extra votes (women of course got no votes) ; etc. ...
Those were the times of abject poverty of the majority of people; abuse of workers; repression of free thought; ... and all in the name of vested interests and the "good of all" (which is actually the good of a few).
Paul Kausch
03-05-14, 08:34
This all has been tried and failed utterly and miserably.I thought Tom was just getting old, feeble and throwing out crazy ideas. You mean to tell me countries have actually tried such loony schemes! ;)
Wolvenvacht
03-05-14, 20:51
I thought Tom was just getting old, feeble and throwing out crazy ideas. You mean to tell me countries have actually tried such loony schemes! ;)Sure, Belgium had (in different variations) such schemes throughout the 19th century until the First World War. Women only got the vote in 1948. The main party blocking universal suffrage was strangely enough the socialist party (who went on general strike in 1893, 1902 and 1913 to get universal male Suffrage) because they were afraid the women would be too easily influenced by their parish priests and thus give their vote to the catholic party.
LukeSkywalker
03-06-14, 03:43
I went to school in a little town on the East Coast where the small police force was neighborly.
In Missouri, a bunch of us students, in a broken car on highway, got a ride from a state trooper in to town to continue our trip on bus. The cheap old car was left on the side of the highway and nobody came back to claim it. Would cost too much.
On the West Coast, life is far more violent, complex and litigious. Nobody would help anybody for fear of legal liability. The cops would never give anyone rides in their cars, unless he's arrested and cuffed, for fear of violating rules. There are stories of good samaritans who transported critically injured accident victims to emergency hospital for quick treatments only to be sued later for some causes.
There are people who stage car accidents to rip off insurance companies. Lawyers and doctors working with these criminals have been known to be arrested and convicted.
They are called law enforcement officers. When I lived in the Western Great Lakes region of the USA I spent time in towns and small cities with populations ranging from a couple thousand up to about 25,000. In these communities the police had a serve and protect attitude. For example, I'd hear stories about a fellow having a few to many and getting pulled over. Was he arrested? No. The officer made sure the car was safe, secure and locked; gave the guy a ride home; and checked on the car a couple of times during the night.
I believe those New England Yankee farmers and merchants would feel unfairly slighted by this statement. I also overheard conversations among historians in faculty lounges talking about how Jefferson, Madison and others wrote and talked among themselves about how slavery was fundamentally incompatible with the principles the USA was founded on; and that there was a majority opinion among the New England delegates writing the constitution to abolish slavery within the document. Nothing was done at that time because it was obviously a deal breaker. I'm no historian, but the people engaged in the conversations I overheard were experts on the topic.
I think these are great ideas, but isn't Europe running into trouble trying to pay for these benefits? And in the case of some countries such as France these are such a severe burden on small businesses that expansion and job creation is stifled? I knew several Frenchmen in San Francisco who owned successful small businesses in the bay area who were adamant the prohibitive start-up costs to meet the government's financial requirements would have made it impossible for them to even start their businesses in France.Paul, the Southern Landowner ruled the roost from the before the rev till the Civil War. Lincoln was the first president to actively voice value for labor. The North ruled the roost till the 1970s and large strides were made. Since the South re-asserted power in the late 70s it has been all downhill for the American worker.
Europe's issue is not pushing for full employment. Does not matter where the job comes from or what it is, as long as money is going into pockets. Still, most Euros enjoy a very nice life.
Norway is the shining example. Natural resources are considered to be property of all citizens. Profits from oil and gas don't go into the pockets of big oil companies, they go into a fund that provides for all Norwegians. Funds their retirements etc. Now just think what we could do in the US for folks if we handled things that way.
Paul Kausch
03-06-14, 04:58
Paul, the Southern Landowner ruled the roost from the before the rev till the Civil War. Lincoln was the first president to actively voice value for labor. The North ruled the roost till the 1970s and large strides were made. Since the South re-asserted power in the late 70s it has been all downhill for the American worker.
Europe's issue is not pushing for full employment. Does not matter where the job comes from or what it is, as long as money is going into pockets. Still, most Euros enjoy a very nice life.
Norway is the shining example. Natural resources are considered to be property of all citizens. Profits from oil and gas don't go into the pockets of big oil companies, they go into a fund that provides for all Norwegians. Funds their retirements etc. Now just think what we could do in the US for folks if we handled things that way.For over a decade, I taught applied math and statistics at a university with one of the strongest American history departments in the country. As I said, I am not a historian. However, I had friends who were historians and experts in their fields. I think my former colleagues would beg to differ with your take on American history from the late eighteenth to mid-nineteenth century. I completely disagree with your opinion on US politics since the 1970s and why organized labor is in decline. The Southeastern US has more political clout in 2014 than in 1914, but it is ridiculous to think it has dominated national politics for the last several decades. Europe and quality of life, I agree with you. However, many Europeans worry how much longer that will last. Norway, I applaud the position they take on national resources. Nice to know there is one country on the planet that has managed natural resources in a way that has resulted in every citizen, on paper, being a millionaire.
Paul Kausch
03-06-14, 05:14
Read some Warren Mosler and Randall Wray if you have not already.I looked into their backgrounds and contributions to economics. I'm not likely to get to any of their writing in this lifetime. That's not to say they may not have some good ideas. Other interests will take priority. I remember teasing people in the Econ Department about suffering from physics envy and knowing just enough about multivariate statistics to really screw things up.
Paul Kausch
03-06-14, 05:18
I went to school in a little town on the East Coast where the small police force was neighborly.The USA is a large country with pronounced regional differences. I found the Western Great Lakes to be a boring region to live in, and I hated the weather, but people had attitudes I admired. I've been lucky to have lives in several different regions. I like different regions for different reasons. Not one is perfect. Not surprising.
Paul Kausch
03-06-14, 05:49
I few days ago Prayuth made what sounded like the strongest statement yet about military intervention. He's ordered the Third Army to begin investigating separatist activities in the north. Earlier today Yingluck met privately with him. Apparently they discussed three things: a way to end the political mess, how to improve the relationship between Yingluck and the army and the coming change in command in the military. The clock is ticking. The day Yingluck gets indicted by the NACC gets closer and closer. Everything I read and hear suggests the NACC has already made up its mind.
Is something important afoot?
For over a decade, I taught applied math and statistics at a university with one of the strongest American history departments in the country. As I said, I am not a historian. However, I had friends who were historians and experts in their fields. I think my former colleagues would beg to differ with your take on American history from the late eighteenth to mid-nineteenth century. I completely disagree with your opinion on US politics since the 1970s and why organized labor is in decline. The Southeastern US has more political clout in 2014 than in 1914, but it is ridiculous to think it has dominated national politics for the last several decades. Europe and quality of life, I agree with you. However, many Europeans worry how much longer that will last. Norway, I applaud the position they take on national resources. Nice to know there is one country on the planet that has managed natural resources in a way that has resulted in every citizen, on paper, being a millionaire.Since 1980 the Southern block (SE, TX, and parts of the SW namely AZ) of electoral votes has been very important. The South used to be Dem, but the Repubs saw an opportunity and re-invented themselves, choosing to divorce themselves from their traditional power base and instead cater to the religious, racists, nut cakes in the Southeast, TX, and parts of the SW. Without the South Reagan and Bush would not have won. Remember FL decided '00 and gave us that moron Bush Jr. All of the sudden with Carter ""church goin'" became very important for a president. The abortion issue that was decided in 73 was up for review again. All pushes led by the Southern states.
Of course in four election cycles or so when the Texas voter roles are 30% Hispanic then this all changes. TX goes blue then the South matters little. FL ceases to be a swing state and the Repubs will be due a major rethink
Org labor in the US was dealt a death blow when they refused to react to Reagan's firing of the PATCO workers. Proper response would have been to stop all transport in the nation till they were rehired. Methinks if that would have been the case, workers would still have some rights in the US. Of course the greedy union bosses shoulder much of the blame on that one.
Paul Kausch
03-06-14, 08:00
Since 1980 the Southern block (SE, TX, and parts of the SW namely AZ) of electoral votes has been very important. The South used to be Dem, but the Repubs saw an opportunity and re-invented themselves, choosing to divorce themselves from their traditional power base and instead cater to the religious, racists, nut cakes in the Southeast, TX, and parts of the SW. Without the South Reagan and Bush would not have won. Remember FL decided '00 and gave us that moron Bush Jr. All of the sudden with Carter ""church goin'" became very important for a president. The abortion issue that was decided in 73 was up for review again. All pushes led by the Southern states.
Of course in four election cycles or so when the Texas voter roles are 30% Hispanic then this all changes. TX goes blue then the South matters little. FL ceases to be a swing state and the Repubs will be due a major rethink
Org labor in the US was dealt a death blow when they refused to react to Reagan's firing of the PATCO workers. Proper response would have been to stop all transport in the nation till they were rehired. Methinks if that would have been the case, workers would still have some rights in the US. Of course the greedy union bosses shoulder much of the blame on that one.I'm just expressing some personal opinions. I expect there are forum members who know more about these subjects than I do.
1964 is the first presidential election I remember well. At the time I wondered why Johnson was able to carry the south when clearly Goldwater should have carried the region had people voted on ideological beliefs and not a hatred for Republicans dating back to the Radical Republicans and Reconstruction. In 1968 Nixon initiated the Republican southern strategy. This together with the emergence of George Wallace, who could be considered the prototypic tea party candidate, broke the Democratic dominance in the south. The region is generally Republican but from time to time Florida elects Democrats to the governors office and US Senate. While Kentucky elects Republicans to the US Senate, it's governors and state legislatures are always Democratic. Obama carried North Carolina in 2008, though Romney won in 2012, but by less than 100,000 votes. Southern demographics are changing. Nationally the Republican Party is in trouble. The Tea Party and people like DeMint try to deny this, but the facts speak for themselves. Main stream Republicans recognize this, and while Cruz could care less, he's preparing for a career on Fox News, Rand Paul gets it and is trying to bring the Republican Party into the 21st Century with his version of libertarianism. Amazing, the NRA and the ACLU both like him.
By the 1960s labor had overplayed it's hand. Organized labor leaders where perceived as corrupt and out of touch with the rank and file. The union leaders supported a political party, the Democrats, who where moving farther and farther from the core social and political beliefs of rank and file union members. Manufacturing began to decline; and the union leaders were too stupid to see it coming and couldn't figure out what to do about it. Reagan's destruction of the air traffic controllers union was certainly a seminal event. Rather than being a cause of the decline of unions in the USA, I think it was more a consequence.
LukeSkywalker
03-06-14, 08:27
What I know working with unions, they are pains in the ass. Unions are the main cause of the US' lack of efficiency and competitiveness in global market. They destroyed a lot of businesses in the US.
I remember back in the early 80's, PATCO leadership demanded large pay and benefits increases for its Air Traffic Control members. ATC's have one of the most critical job as government employees, directing and controlling air traffic. When the union did not get their demands they decided to strike against the non-strike clause in their contract, violating federal laws prohibiting strike by air traffic controllers.
The strike caused a lot of problems for the air traffic system. There were lots of near mid air collisions near major airports, most were not reported. They caused lots of traffic delays and uncertainty in the economy that negatively impacted everyone in the US.
PATCO thought they could blackmail then president Ronald Reagan into surrendering to their demands in large wages and benefits increases, but the president came out stronger. He ordered firing of over 10,000 striking ATCs and quick, massive hiring of new personnel. After all ATC's are well-paying good jobs that require only high-school education. A lot of people want those jobs.
For a year, the system was manned by management, supervisory personnel, a small percentage of non-striking workers and lots of green new hires. Some management people were working 20-hour days. 7 days a week training and breaking in new people. The system was glitchy at times but did function fairly well, and luckily there were no major accidents to the flying public.
President Reagan had my tremendous respect for having the courage, skills and perseverance to bust an errant union to set a good example for the country. Years later, PATCO and fired ATC's were taking all sorts of legal actions to get their jobs back but the FAA had the trouble makers in a black list never to be rehired. They would also never get hired in other government jobs. The FAA eventually did hire back some strikers who were deemed non problematic.
PATCO did react but failed in their strike and all subsequent legal maneuverings. PATCO's failure costed other unions the confidence and respect of the population. PATCO was viewed as a bunch of greedy, unprincipled grease balls blackmailing the country for their own personal benefits.
I used to hate and despise these stupid, uneducated ATC's who were acting like assholes, giving pilots all sorts of problems and stresses. By mid 80's after restaffing, the new ATC personnel were remarkably professional, competent and helpful.
I like the way major companies have been getting concessions from unions by the threatening to move factories to non-union Southern states. The Southern states have gotten a lot of new non-union jobs in the last 20 years. Good for them! Good for the economy! Good for the US!
Org labor in the US was dealt a death blow when they refused to react to Reagan's firing of the PATCO workers. Proper response would have been to stop all transport in the nation till they were rehired. Methinks if that would have been the case, workers would still have some rights in the US. Of course the greedy union bosses shoulder much of the blame on that one.
What I know working with unions, they are pains in the ass. Unions are the main cause of the US' lack of efficiency and competitiveness in global market. They destroyed a lot of businesses in the US.
I remember back in the early 80's, PATCO leadership demanded large pay and benefits increases for its Air Traffic Control members. ATC's have one of the most critical job as government employees, directing and controlling air traffic. When the union did not get their demands they decided to strike against the non-strike clause in their contract, violating federal laws prohibiting strike by air traffic controllers.
The strike caused a lot of problems for the air traffic system. There were lots of near mid air collisions near major airports, most were not reported. They caused lots of traffic delays and uncertainty in the economy that negatively impacted everyone in the US.
PATCO thought they could blackmail then president Ronald Reagan into surrendering to their demands in large wages and benefits increases, but the president came out stronger. He ordered firing of over 10, 000 striking ATCs and quick, massive hiring of new personnel. After all ATC's are well-paying good jobs that require only high-school education. A lot of people want those jobs.
For a year, the system was manned by management, supervisory personnel, a small percentage of non-striking workers and lots of green new hires. Some management people were working 20-hour days. 7 days a week training and breaking in new people. The system was glitchy at times but did function fairly well, and luckily there were no major accidents to the flying public.
President Reagan had my tremendous respect for having the courage, skills and perseverance to bust an errant union to set a good example for the country. Years later, PATCO and fired ATC's were taking all sorts of legal actions to get their jobs back but the FAA had the trouble makers in a black list never to be rehired. They would also never get hired in other government jobs. The FAA eventually did hire back some strikers who were deemed non problematic.
PATCO did react but failed in their strike and all subsequent legal maneuverings. PATCO's failure costed other unions the confidence and respect of the population. PATCO was viewed as a bunch of greedy, unprincipled grease balls blackmailing the country for their own personal benefits.
I used to hate and despise these stupid, uneducated ATC's who were acting like assholes, giving pilots all sorts of problems and stresses. By mid 80's after restaffing, the new ATC personnel were remarkably professional, competent and helpful.
I like the way major companies have been getting concessions from unions by the threatening to move factories to non-union Southern states. The Southern states have gotten a lot of new non-union jobs in the last 20 years. Good for them! Good for the economy! Good for the US!Bad for the economy and bad for the US. Why? Because most of the jobs created are low paying. I really don't understand the "race to the bottom" attitude."Cheap" labor is not a good thing for a country.
Actually the pilots should have come out in favor of the ATCs and joined the strike. Might have preserved the American middle class.
I'm just expressing some personal opinions. I expect there are forum members who know more about these subjects than I do.
1964 is the first presidential election I remember well. At the time I wondered why Johnson was able to carry the south when clearly Goldwater should have carried the region had people voted on ideological beliefs and not a hatred for Republicans dating back to the Radical Republicans and Reconstruction. In 1968 Nixon initiated the Republican southern strategy. This together with the emergence of George Wallace, who could be considered the prototypic tea party candidate, broke the Democratic dominance in the south. The region is generally Republican but from time to time Florida elects Democrats to the governors office and US Senate. While Kentucky elects Republicans to the US Senate, it's governors and state legislatures are always Democratic. Obama carried North Carolina in 2008, though Romney won in 2012, but by less than 100, 000 votes. Southern demographics are changing. Nationally the Republican Party is in trouble. The Tea Party and people like DeMint try to deny this, but the facts speak for themselves. Main stream Republicans recognize this, and while Cruz could care less, he's preparing for a career on Fox News, Rand Paul gets it and is trying to bring the Republican Party into the 21st Century with his version of libertarianism. Amazing, the NRA and the ACLU both like him.
By the 1960s labor had overplayed it's hand. Organized labor leaders where perceived as corrupt and out of touch with the rank and file. The union leaders supported a political party, the Democrats, who where moving farther and farther from the core social and political beliefs of rank and file union members. Manufacturing began to decline; and the union leaders were too stupid to see it coming and couldn't figure out what to do about it. Reagan's destruction of the air traffic controllers union was certainly a seminal event. Rather than being a cause of the decline of unions in the USA, I think it was more a consequence.Corrupt union bosses were for sure one of the main causes of the union's demise. Sad as workers today get next to nothing.
What galls me is people bitching about gov employees and the benefits they get. The correct question is,"Why don't I have the same benefits from the company I work for?" Ensuring all citizens have access to affordable health care, education, have a good retirement, make a living wage, and have enough time off to enjoy it is what I want my government to push for and legislate. To me knowing that is there is "freedom." The big boys will still be able to make a little.
Not a big libertarian fan as I don't believe business can regulate itself. I also don't believe there is a "free market." There are always factors that are manipulated.
Some things work quite well in a "market" environment. Most consumer goods fall into that category. Some things do not. Health care is one of those things that does not. I thought I agreed with them on drug legalization but they want to leave it up to the states whereas I think they should be legalized on the federal level. Where Thailand could benefit from decentralization, the US suffers for it given the diversity in almost every state. The concept of state's rights should be a one way street. States can grant more rights and privileges than the Feds, but cannot deny any. Roe v Wade is the perfect example. Amazing that states are passing restrictive laws. The number of religious neanderthals in the South and Midwest is appalling.
Not a big libertarian fan as I don't believe business can regulate itself. I also don't believe there is a "free market." There are always factors that are manipulated.
Some things work quite well in a "market" environment. Most consumer goods fall into that category. Some things do not. Health care is one of those things that does not. I thought I agreed with them on drug legalization but they want to leave it up to the states whereas I think they should be legalized on the federal level.
The concept of state's rights should be a one way street. States can grant more rights and privileges than the Feds, but cannot deny any. Roe v Wade is the perfect example. Amazing that states are passing restrictive laws. The number of religious neanderthals in the South and Midwest is appalling.You're my new hero.
LukeSkywalker
03-06-14, 16:38
As much as we all wish everyone to have the highest pays, global competition and market economics will drive the wage scales. Employers can only pay certain jobs so much money, and can still sell their products and services globally for profit, and remain in business.
If labor does not settle for wages competitive with the rest of the world, their jobs will be moved to the countries that have the labors willing to do it. Labor no longer has monopoly on their jobs within their own countries any more. The market will find people and places that can produce products and services with the highest efficiency and quality, taking into consideration additional costs for distance, transportation, taxes and tariffs, training etc.
Believe me, people and business shop very carefully when it comes to spending their own money. That's the reason most production jobs have moved to China and Thailand, services jobs to The Phil and India. Professional jobs have also moved. In the past 10 years lots of back office jobs involving Information Technology, Engineering and healthcare services, including radiology, have moved to India, where English-speaking professionals can do competent work for 10% overall costs in the US.
That's the global competitive market. Businesses have to stay competitive or die, eliminating jobs. If labor and unions don't settle for competitive pays in global scales, they don't have their jobs.
Pilots belong to a highly skilled and regulated class of union workers, doing very critical jobs, entirely different from flight attendants and air traffic controllers. But the low-time pilots flying regional routes are still being exploited by airlines with very low wage and benefit scales. And US airlines still manage to lose massive amounts of money in the last decade. Higher costs in the US air traffic system will drive tourists to other cheaper destinations. The US will lose tourism revenues.
I don't propose to know all solutions to this complex economic problem. The pilots knew then that air traffic controllers were abusing the system. Most of us were happy that PATCO got busted!
Bad for the economy and bad for the US. Why? Because most of the jobs created are low paying. I really don't understand the "race to the bottom" attitude."Cheap" labor is not a good thing for a country.
Actually the pilots should have come out in favor of the ATCs and joined the strike. Might have preserved the American middle class.
As much as we all wish everyone to have the highest pays, global competition and market economics will drive the wage scales. Employers can only pay certain jobs so much money, and can still sell their products and services globally for profit, and remain in business.
If labor does not settle for wages competitive with the rest of the world, their jobs will be moved to the countries that have the labors willing to do it. Labor no longer has monopoly on their jobs within their own countries any more. The market will find people and places that can produce products and services with the highest efficiency and quality, taking into consideration additional costs for distance, transportation, taxes and tariffs, training etc.
Believe me, people and business shop very carefully when it comes to spending their own money. That's the reason most production jobs have moved to China and Thailand, services jobs to The Phil and India. Professional jobs have also moved. In the past 10 years lots of back office jobs involving Information Technology, Engineering and healthcare services, including radiology, have moved to India, where English-speaking professionals can do competent work for 10% overall costs in the US.
That's the global competitive market. Businesses have to stay competitive or die, eliminating jobs. If labor and unions don't settle for competitive pays in global scales, they don't have their jobs.
Pilots belong to a highly skilled and regulated class of union workers, doing very critical jobs, entirely different from flight attendants and air traffic controllers. But the low-time pilots flying regional routes are still being exploited by airlines with very low wage and benefit scales. And US airlines still manage to lose massive amounts of money in the last decade. Higher costs in the US air traffic system will drive tourists to other cheaper destinations. The US will lose tourism revenues.
I don't propose to know all solutions to this complex economic problem. The pilots knew then that air traffic controllers were abusing the system. Most of us were happy that PATCO got busted!What you are advocating is a race to the bottom. It benefits only the very few. The Euro zone does well because they tariff imported goods, as well they should. What you are touting will simply continue the decline of the middle class.
You advocate high wages for yourself, but not for others. Amazingly hypocritical. In time your job will disappear as well, being replaces by planes that fly themselves or are piloted from a control center.
Again, MMT provides the answers.
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/03/forget-1.html#more-7669
You're my new hero.Dude, your Scandinavian, correct? I am so envious. Wish I had a Norwegian, Swedish, or Danish passport. You guys really get what freedom is about. Americans really don't have a clue.
LukeSkywalker
03-06-14, 18:12
I don't think you understand the extreme pressure on executive and management people to keep their business surviving in the very competitive global market. They have to continually drive for the lowest costs and the highest efficiency and quality, or they would lose the business to competition. I have seen major US companies losing their unique markets to Asian competition because their unions refused to cooperate to improve cost and quality.
Any country can only protect inefficiency, low quality and high costs for so long before the whole countries will go bankrupt. Just look at what protection did to European countries. With the exception of Germany, their economies are in shambles with high unemployment and negative growth.
The Western mentality of individuals first has created generations of me-first, me-only workers who would grab everything for themselves and screw the businesses who give them employment. Workers in Japan, China, Korea seem to have better team attitudes and loyalty to their employers. They have gained dominance of the design, production and sales of highly-profitable products in markets like consumer electronics.
Just like how I deal with Thai girls. I will only give my business to those who give me good service at competitive prices.
What you are advocating is a race to the bottom. It benefits only the very few. The Euro zone does well because they tariff imported goods, as well they should. What you are touting will simply continue the decline of the middle class.
You advocate high wages for yourself, but not for others. Amazingly hypocritical. In time your job will disappear as well, being replaces by planes that fly themselves or are piloted from a control center.
Again, MMT provides the answers.
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/03/forget-1.html
#more-7669
I don't think you understand the extreme pressure on executive and management people to keep their business surviving in the very competitive global market. They have to continually drive for the lowest costs and the highest efficiency and quality, or they would lose the business to competition. I have seen major US companies losing their unique markets to Asian competition because their unions refused to cooperate to improve cost and quality.
Any country can only protect inefficiency, low quality and high costs for so long before the whole countries will go bankrupt. Just look at what protection did to European countries. With the exception of Germany, their economies are in shambles with high unemployment and negative growth.
The Western mentality of individuals first has created generations of me-first, me-only workers who would grab everything for themselves and screw the businesses who give them employment. Workers in Japan, China, Korea seem to have better team attitudes and loyalty to their employers. They have gained dominance of the design, production and sales of highly-profitable products in markets like consumer electronics.
Just like how I deal with Thai girls. I will only give my business to those who give me good service at competitive prices.And you have just described the problem with modern capitalism (a race to the bottom) and why it is incompatible with increased automation and a growing population. The model you are citing is a dead end for all but the very wealthy. Again, countries never have to go "bankrupt."
Unemployment only matters is the unemployed don't have money to spend. In the EU most do. It does not matter how money gets into consumer's hands, as long as it does.
Why do you think China builds cities that no one will live in? To put money in people's pockets so they will spend.
An article came out last month stating that in 20 years over 40% of the jobs we have will be made redundant due to technological advances; but the population of the earth is increasing. See the problem? There are solutions. No matter what the nutty supply siders and Austrian School loonies say, the economy is consumer based. Trickle up works. Put money in the pockets of the poor and middle class and they will spend it. Let people retire at 55 and ensure large pensions. They will put it all back into the economy. Taxes? Only to control inflation. Why do you need tax to raise revenue when you have a sov currency that you the gov have a monopoly on creating and destroying?
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/03/forget-1.html#more-7669.
http://heteconomist.com/some-reasons-for-guaranteeing-both-an-income-and-job/
Paul Kausch
03-07-14, 02:48
As much as we all wish everyone to have the highest pays, global competition and market economics will drive the wage scales. Employers can only pay certain jobs so much money, and can still sell their products and services globally for profit, and remain in business.
What you are advocating is a race to the bottom. It benefits only the very few. The Euro zone does well because they tariff imported goods, as well they should. What you are touting will simply continue the decline of the middle class.
I don't think you understand the extreme pressure on executive and management people to keep their business surviving in the very competitive global market. They have to continually drive for the lowest costs and the highest efficiency and quality, or they would lose the business to competition. I have seen major US companies losing their unique markets to Asian competition because their unions refused to cooperate to improve cost and quality.I can speak to this issue from personal experiences. A decade ago I owned a factory in the USA and, together with a local partner, a second factory in Indonesia. I started with the USA factory. I did not layoff anyone in this factory when I opened the Indonesian factory. I'm a nice enough guy, but my reason was purely financial. I was accountable to my investors. There were sound business reasons to keep the factory in the USA operating; however, rather than expand production in this factory, I opened the second factory overseas. There were a variety of reasons for this. Labor costs was one of the most important. Before I continue with this part of the story, let me raise another issue. The reason will make sense when I pick up this story again.
One thing that allows China, to name just one country, to be so competitive is it makes no effort to abate environmental degradation, require a safe workplace, provide even modest worker benefits, etcertera. I could go on and on. Some people in developed countries argue that by just requiring companies in developing economies meet standards required in the EU and North American would greatly improve the quality of life, not to mention the environment and attenuate the race to the bottom some people talk about. These standards could be required to import a product. There are other ways of doing this. Now back to my story.
We did white label manufacturing in the Indonesian factory. Our most important client was concerned about it's public image and had strict standards we were required to follow. These included a number of things relevant to good environmental practices and workplace safety. We were given a manual that filled four large three-ring binders we had to follow. A company was hired to review our operation and inspect our factory on a regular basis. Some visits were unannounced. We had no problems because in addition to meeting all these requirement, we did other things our customer liked. For example, we paid slightly better than the prevailing wage, but our labor costs were still very low, and did a lot of small things that cost very little but our employees appreciated. For example, every Friday our foremen took groups of employees out for lunch. We negotiated prices at several modest restaurants to control our costs. Though modest, these restaurants were a real treat for our employees. We used a schedule that ensured that each employee (we had more than 100 and less than a 1000) enjoyed this benefit a few times a year. Moral was excellent; and turnover, which could be a problem in factories like ours, was almost nonexistent. By not doing these things we could have cut our costs by a couple of percent, but we felt the overall benefits justified doing this. Bottom line, the factory turned a profit that everyone was happy with.
There is fierce competition that puts tremendous pressure on companies. China's business practices are driven by among other things a need to create jobs for a huge population, that now has a taste of upward mobility. Had our customer been a company like Walmart, we would not have been able to operate as we did. Walmart know costs so precisely, to lower their costs they would have squeezed us so hard we would not have been able to operate that way. Fortunately, our customer was an exceptional company, and what they did worked for them. It would not have worked for all companies.
In a moral and rationale world it would be possible for all companies to do what we did. But goods in discount stores would be a bit more expensive, which would make a big difference to these store's customers. Walmart was hurt by the economic downturn in the USA as its customers were most effected. Of course this would not be a problem if there was full employment and workers were better paid, but there are roughly one million unfilled jobs in the USA right now that pay on average US$80K and up, but they require a vocational-technical education with a good understanding of basic math and science. Uneducated, unskilled workers, not a lack of skilled jobs, are the problem.
I can step back, look at the interconnected problems and see how the plight of working men and women, the health of the global economy and the environment could be greatly improved. The problem is, how do you implement the necessary policies? If the world was only wiser and more just. But as a wise man once said to me, "it's not a just world, it's just a world."
LukeSkywalker
03-07-14, 05:23
Global competition is intense. Hungry competitors are always scheming to steal your business and drive you into the poor house. Employees just don't know how hard their bosses have to work to keep the business alive to give them employment.
Paul Kausch some how made the transition from academic to industrial world, managing business and people, driving slaves to turn profit for his investors. And he's still alive and sane. I don't know how he did it, but my hat is off to him.
Poorer countries are taking on hazardous work at low costs to employ and feed their population. Their governments are overlooking dumping of toxic industrial wastes and delaying the costs of fixing health and environmental hazards.
Major corporate clients will on paper demand contractors to adhere to lots of lofty humane requirements in producing their products. But they really want to make profit first, then cover their tracks and unload any ethical or legal liabilities on their contractors.
Humans are humans any where in the world. Money is not the only or the highest motivation. Managers have to be well-rounded to know enough math and stats to quickly identify and fix business problems to maintain profit. They also have to understand various levels of needs in various people and to satisfy those needs with their limited resources to keep their customers happy and their employees loyal.
The struggle for businesses as well as governments is to keep everyone alive and reasonably happy so they can go on and produce good, reliable work for you. It's hard work we must all do to live in this world.
I can speak to this issue from personal experiences. A decade ago I owned a factory in the USA and, together with a local partner, a second factory in Indonesia. I started with the USA factory. I did not layoff anyone in this factory when I opened the Indonesian factory. I'm a nice enough guy, but my reason was purely financial. I was accountable to my investors. There were sound business reasons to keep the factory in the USA operating; however, rather than expand production in this factory, I opened the second factory overseas. There were a variety of reasons for this. Labor costs was one of the most important. Before I continue with this part of the story, let me raise another issue. The reason will make sense when I pick up this story again.
One thing that allows China, to name just one country, to be so competitive is it makes no effort to abate environmental degradation, require a safe workplace, provide even modest worker benefits, etcertera. I could go on and on. Some people in developed countries argue that by just requiring companies in developing economies meet standards required in the EU and North American would greatly improve the quality of life, not to mention the environment and attenuate the race to the bottom some people talk about. These standards could be required to import a product. There are other ways of doing this. Now back to my story.
In a moral and rationale world it would be possible for all companies to do what we did. But goods in discount stores would be a bit more expensive, which would make a big difference to these store's customers. Walmart was hurt by the economic downturn in the USA as its customers were most effected. Of course this would not be a problem if there was full employment and workers were better paid, but there are roughly one million unfilled jobs in the USA right now that pay on average US$80K and up, but they require a vocational-technical education with a good understanding of basic math and science. Uneducated, unskilled workers, not a lack of skilled jobs, are the problem.
I can step back, look at the interconnected problems and see how the plight of working men and women, the health of the global economy and the environment could be greatly improved. The problem is, how do you implement the necessary policies? If the world was only wiser and more just. But as a wise man once said to me,"it's not a just world, it's just a world."
Paul Kausch
03-07-14, 05:35
Paul Kausch some how made the transition from academic to industrial world, managing business and people, driving slaves to turn profit for his investors. And he's still alive and sane. I don't know how he did it, but my hat is off to him.I was more misfitted to academia than to the business world. I am still alive, though in my late fifties I did have a severe heart attack. As for my sanity, would a sane man spend his retirement writing posts on ISG? LOL
I'm sure you know the old saying, "life's a ***** and then you die."
Wolvenvacht
03-07-14, 09:49
Any country can only protect inefficiency, low quality and high costs for so long before the whole countries will go bankrupt. Just look at what protection did to European countries. With the exception of Germany, their economies are in shambles with high unemployment and negative growth.What nonsense!
Belgium is a good example. We had the world's longest government crisis exactly during the economic turmoil. It meant Belgium did NOT take any measures to downscale social security, increase taxes, loosened worker's protection, . The effect is that our economy AND our social security is now in a much better shape than for instance in Germany. Germany created lots of extreme low paying jobs with no social security and has toppled from a wealthy West European country to almost East European levels. Sure, there are (very) rich people in Germany, and profitable companies, but there are now far more (very) poor people in Germany as well. Do you want to live in Germany on 400 EURO / month?
Wolvenvacht
03-07-14, 09:57
Any country can only protect inefficiency, low quality and high costs for so long before the whole countries will go bankrupt. Just look at what protection did to European countries. With the exception of Germany, their economies are in shambles with high unemployment and negative growth.What nonsense!
Just to add to my below posting. Yes, the German economy had growth: they now employ poorly paid people who cannot spend money on the economy. I wonder how that will help the German economy in the long run.
Western787
03-07-14, 09:59
Dude, your Scandinavian, correct? I am so envious. Wish I had a Norwegian, Swedish, or Danish passport. You guys really get what freedom is about. Americans really don't have a clue.True, and electing Obama to a 2nd term to complete his socialist welfare state and his program of enslaving people to a life of govt dependency, proves americans really don't have a clue.
True, and electing Obama to a 2nd term to complete his socialist welfare state and his program of enslaving people to a life of govt dependency, proves americans really don't have a clue.Uh, Obama is center right at best. Americans have a raw deal dude. Yes, they don't have a clue. The public should demand single payer uni health care. 4 weeks mandatory vacation, affordable education, and a great pension at 55. Until they do, they don't have a clue, and no idea how well folks in other developed nations have it.
What nonsense!
Belgium is a good example. We had the world's longest government crisis exactly during the economic turmoil. It meant Belgium did NOT take any measures to downscale social security, increase taxes, loosened worker's protection, . The effect is that our economy AND our social security is now in a much better shape than for instance in Germany. Germany created lots of extreme low paying jobs with no social security and has toppled from a wealthy West European country to almost East European levels. Sure, there are (very) rich people in Germany, and profitable companies, but there are now far more (very) poor people in Germany as well. Do you want to live in Germany on 400 EURO / month?Correct. Austerity does not work. But you'll never convince many Americans of that as they still believe in supply side, Milton Friedman, and that Austrian School nonsense.
ConquerorVal
03-07-14, 17:24
….you'll never convince many Americans of that as they still believe Milton Friedman, and that Austrian School nonsense.Goatscrot! I don't know where you're from, but for what its worth I agree with everything you've said so far.
LukeSkywalker
03-07-14, 18:25
Nothing is free in this world. Someone will eventually have to pay for them, sometimes at prices much higher than normal.
The wild speculation in housing in China built a lot houses and buildings that are unsaleable or unrentable. The unoccupied properties are bleeding cash from builders and bankers and hurting them as well as the health of China's economy badly.
Banks can only hide and cover for those bad loans for so long before they will be found in violations of banking laws or go illiquid. When the bubble busts, massive write downs in values of these speculative properties will hurt a lot of peoples, investors, banks, businesses, depress the economy, may even topple governments.
Governments aim to maintain social stability, and sometimes stimulate economies, by paying unemployment benefits, but they cannot keep paying unemployed people forever.
Unless the population is highly-educated, high-skilled, highly-productive and can engage in beneficial trades with other countries, that population will eventually end up in stagnation and poverty.
There is no free lunch.
And you have just described the problem with modern capitalism (a race to the bottom) and why it is incompatible with increased automation and a growing population. The model you are citing is a dead end for all but the very wealthy. Again, countries never have to go "bankrupt."
Unemployment only matters is the unemployed don't have money to spend. In the EU most do. It does not matter how money gets into consumer's hands, as long as it does.
Why do you think China builds cities that no one will live in? To put money in people's pockets so they will spend.
An article came out last month stating that in 20 years over 40% of the jobs we have will be made redundant due to technological advances; but the population of the earth is increasing. See the problem? There are solutions. No matter what the nutty supply siders and Austrian School loonies say, the economy is consumer based. Trickle up works. Put money in the pockets of the poor and middle class and they will spend it. Let people retire at 55 and ensure large pensions. They will put it all back into the economy. Taxes? Only to control inflation. Why do you need tax to raise revenue when you have a sov currency that you the gov have a monopoly on creating and destroying?
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/03/forget-1.html
#more-7669.
http://heteconomist.com/some-reasons-for-guaranteeing-both-an-income-and-job/
Dude, your Scandinavian, correct? I am so envious. Wish I had a Norwegian, Swedish, or Danish passport. You guys really get what freedom is about. Americans really don't have a clue.Nope. 212 is my area code.
Nothing is free in this world. Someone will eventually have to pay for them, sometimes at prices much higher than normal.
The wild speculation in housing in China built a lot houses and buildings that are unsaleable or unrentable. The unoccupied properties are bleeding cash from builders and bankers and hurting them as well as the health of China's economy badly.
Banks can only hide and cover for those bad loans for so long before they will be found in violations of banking laws or go illiquid. When the bubble busts, massive write downs in values of these speculative properties will hurt a lot of peoples, investors, banks, businesses, depress the economy, may even topple governments.
Governments aim to maintain social stability, and sometimes stimulate economies, by paying unemployment benefits, but they cannot keep paying unemployed people forever.
Unless the population is highly-educated, high-skilled, highly-productive and can engage in beneficial trades with other countries, that population will eventually end up in stagnation and poverty.
There is no free lunch.You really don't understand sovereign currency or central banking. Full employment is the key. It does not matter if anyone ever lives in those units. They can tear them down and build them again. They are not bleeding cash. Really read some MMT. Dated economic ideas are no help to anyone.
Goatscrot! I don't know where you're from, but for what its worth I agree with everything you've said so far.From the US, but been in LOS for over 14 years.
Western787
03-11-14, 12:53
http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/thailands-economic-comfort-zone-being-blown-away
From The Nation: Asia News Network (Feb 24, 2014)
written at the time of peak violence in Bangkok
You really don't understand sovereign currency or central banking. Full employment is the key. It does not matter if anyone ever lives in those units. They can tear them down and build them again. They are not bleeding cash. Really read some MMT. Dated economic ideas are no help to anyone.K.
They who? I don't know much about China but in Spain at the peak of the RE bubble (eg) the average investor paid 200K USD for an apartment in a building that is now unfinished possibly forever, is that bleeding or not? Then if the "whole country" suffers or not that is another story, but in time of crisis all people but the richest suffer.
K.
They who? I don't know much about China but in Spain at the peak of the RE bubble (eg) the average investor paid 200K USD for an apartment in a building that is now unfinished possibly forever, is that bleeding or not? Then if the "whole country" suffers or not that is another story, but in time of crisis all people but the richest suffer.In China, there are a glut of condos that have never been purchased and the price is still firm. Building were all completed. Very different from Spain.
The folks who did that to investors in Spain should be jailed.
Uh, Obama is center right at best. Americans have a raw deal dude. Yes, they don't have a clue. The public should demand single payer uni health care. 4 weeks mandatory vacation, affordable education, and a great pension at 55. Until they do, they don't have a clue, and no idea how well folks in other developed nations have it.Goats a socialist. LOL! You are free to go to those EU socialist countries you so envy!
Western787
03-12-14, 07:26
Goats a socialist. LOL! You are free to go to those EU socialist countries you so envy!However walk-ins don't get all the freebie stuff.
When Obama visited Bangkok in 2012, I have to admit he was smart enough to both leave Michelle home and also leave enough wiggle room in his schedule for some barfining.
Goats a socialist. LOL! You are free to go to those EU socialist countries you so envy!Yes, there are elements of socialism in EU countries and market elements as well. If I was younger you bet I would immigrate. We Americans have a raw deal.
However walk-ins don't get all the freebie stuff.Correct, but it is not "free." The burden is shared. Makes for a far better society. I don't understand why my fellow Americans gripe about these things instead of demanding it for themselves.
Western787
03-12-14, 08:18
Correct, but it is not "free." The burden is shared. .LOL, you mean sharing the misery equally. France for example is on borrowed time. As for the handful of north euro socialist countries most are de facto racist countries. In fact Sweeden refuses to even keep a statistical database of racial makeup, lest the obvious be revealed.
LOL, you mean sharing the misery equally. France for example is on borrowed time. As for the handful of north euro socialist countries most are de facto racist countries. In fact Sweeden refuses to even keep a statistical database of racial makeup, lest the obvious be revealed.Sorry not my definition of misery. Now being a worker in the US, that is misery. Maybe 2 weeks off, terrible pensions, if they exist at all in the private sector. Just nuts. The EU will be fine. Don't buy the BS you are fed in the US. Greatest propaganda machine the world has ever seen.
Sorry not my definition of misery. Now being a worker in the US, that is misery. Maybe 2 weeks off, terrible pensions, if they exist at all in the private sector. Just nuts.Not true, and I think you know that. You can do much better at attacking the US social system, the exploited worker angle doesn't really work.
The folks who did that to investors in Spain should be jailed.I disagree. The penalty for serious economic crime in China is a bullet in the back of the head. Some say that is harsh. But I bet there would have been no economic crisis if say the CEO of Enron had been made an example of, up against a wall, 'pour encourager les autres'.
A good read given various scenarios.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/120114/draft-what-is-likely-to-happen-to-the-yingluck-government/
Wolvenvacht
03-12-14, 20:58
LOL, you mean sharing the misery equally. France for example is on borrowed time. As for the handful of north euro socialist countries most are de facto racist countries. In fact Sweeden refuses to even keep a statistical database of racial makeup, lest the obvious be revealed.The obvious being that 100% of all people living in Sweden are from the human race. They don't need no statistical database for that.
Western787
03-12-14, 21:54
The obvious being that 100% of all people living in Sweden are from the human race. They don't need no statistical database for that.Obvious that they keep out certain races as much as possible. Although I do commend them for getting rid of the Racial Purity Board and the forced mass sterilizations.
Reef LostCause
03-12-14, 21:58
LOL, you mean sharing the misery equally. France for example is on borrowed time.France is a great place to make a living in.
I have enough money to burn 20.000 baht a day in massage parlors for 2 weeks and not feel a sting.
Obvious that they keep out certain races as much as possible. Although I do commend them for getting rid of the Racial Purity Board and the forced mass sterilizations.What fuck are you talking about? You should apologize for your offensive statements and go look at your own country history before talking about a nation that can walk head up in any context!
And no I'm m not Swedish.
Western787
03-12-14, 22:37
What fuck are you talking about? You should apologize for your offensive statements and go look at your own country history before talking about a nation that can walk head up in any context!
And no I'm m not Swedish.Sweden pays for grim past.
Up to 63, 000 people, mostly women, were sterilised under a racial purity programme approved by the state until 1976. After years of evasion, Stockholm is finally offering the victims compensation.
By Stephen Bates
The Guardian, Friday 5 March 1999 22. 04 EST
After years of denial, Sweden began moves yesterday to compensate thousands of citizens sterilised in a grim social experiment in eugenics which lasted more than 40 years.
Stockholm's social affairs ministry announced it would pay up to £13, 430 to each surviving victim of the 1934-76 programme.
The decision follows the report in January of an official commission set up in the wake of newspaper reports in 1997 that up to 63, 000 people. 90 per cent of them women. Were sterilised with state approval to improve Swedish "racial purity" as part of a policy of "ethnic hygiene". The commission has received up to 200 calls a month from victims.
Its secretary, Leif Persson, said: "They say they have been haunted by this their whole lives and that it has been a real source of shame for them."
Teenagers as young as 15 were sterilised, some without their parents' consent, for inadequacies as trivial as shortsightedness or because they allegedly lacked judgment or had "no obvious concept of ethics".
Pressure was put on orphans and children in special schools and reformatories to have the operation as a condition of release.
Pregnant women seeking abortions because their foetus was damaged were told they also had to consent to sterilisation. People could even apply to have problem neighbourhood families sterilised.
Maija Runcis, who studied several thousand sterilisation cases as part of a doctoral thesis, said: "Nowadays people are appalled, but then nobody cared about these people. This was a backyard to the nice little Swedish home. Everyone always talked about the Swedish model, how nice it is here. But no one talked about things like this."
Sweden was not the only country to practise eugenics before the second world war, but it was the first to set up a state institute for racial biology.
The institute was founded in 1921 to identify "sexually precocious or mixed-race types", and legislation was enacted in 1934. Although sterilisation operations waned in the 1960s, the law was not repealed until 1976.
The Nazis are believed to have sterilised 400, 000 Germans deemed to have lives not worth living.
Other Scandinavian countries and one Swiss canton had similar policies. Norway is thought to have sterilised 40, 000 people and Denmark 6, 000.
Canada and 30 American states also practised sterilisation until long after the war: North Carolina alone sterilised 7, 700 people in the years until 1973, two-thirds of them black.
Academics say the Swedish programme started as a large-scale experiment in racial biology but after the war aimed to weed out social problems.
As in Britain, where some of eugenics' most enthusiastic supporters were on the political left, liberals and Social Democrats backed the Swedish programme and sustained it for decades.
As recently as two years ago, the Swedish social affairs minister, Margot Wallstrom, refused an application for compensation from one victim on the grounds that the policy had been legal.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/mar/06/stephenbates
Sweden pays for grim past.
Up to 63, 000 people, mostly women, were sterilised under a racial purity programme approved by the state until 1976. After years of evasion, Stockholm is finally offering the victims compensation.
By Stephen Bates
The Guardian, Friday 5 March 1999 22. 04 EST
After years of denial, Sweden began moves yesterday to compensate thousands of citizens sterilised in a grim social experiment in eugenics which lasted more than 40 years.
Stockholm's social affairs ministry announced it would pay up to £13, 430 to each surviving victim of the 1934-76 programme.
The decision follows the report in January of an official commission set up in the wake of newspaper reports in 1997 that up to 63, 000 people. 90 per cent of them women. Were sterilised with state approval to improve Swedish "racial purity" as part of a policy of "ethnic hygiene". The commission has received up to 200 calls a month from victims.
Its secretary, Leif Persson, said: "They say they have been haunted by this their whole lives and that it has been a real source of shame for them."
Teenagers as young as 15 were sterilised, some without their parents' consent, for inadequacies as trivial as shortsightedness or because they allegedly lacked judgment or had "no obvious concept of ethics".
Pressure was put on orphans and children in special schools and reformatories to have the operation as a condition of release.
Pregnant women seeking abortions because their foetus was damaged were told they also had to consent to sterilisation. People could even apply to have problem neighbourhood families sterilised.
Maija Runcis, who studied several thousand sterilisation cases as part of a doctoral thesis, said: "Nowadays people are appalled, but then nobody cared about these people. This was a backyard to the nice little Swedish home. Everyone always talked about the Swedish model, how nice it is here. But no one talked about things like this."
Sweden was not the only country to practise eugenics before the second world war, but it was the first to set up a state institute for racial biology.
The institute was founded in 1921 to identify "sexually precocious or mixed-race types", and legislation was enacted in 1934. Although sterilisation operations waned in the 1960s, the law was not repealed until 1976.
The Nazis are believed to have sterilised 400, 000 Germans deemed to have lives not worth living.
Other Scandinavian countries and one Swiss canton had similar policies. Norway is thought to have sterilised 40, 000 people and Denmark 6, 000.
Canada and 30 American states also practised sterilisation until long after the war: North Carolina alone sterilised 7, 700 people in the years until 1973, two-thirds of them black.
Academics say the Swedish programme started as a large-scale experiment in racial biology but after the war aimed to weed out social problems.
As in Britain, where some of eugenics' most enthusiastic supporters were on the political left, liberals and Social Democrats backed the Swedish programme and sustained it for decades.
As recently as two years ago, the Swedish social affairs minister, Margot Wallstrom, refused an application for compensation from one victim on the grounds that the policy had been legal.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/mar/06/stephenbatesAnd the US Civil Rights Act was not passed till the 60s. So, what's your point?
France is a great place to make a living in.
I have enough money to burn 20. 000 baht a day in massage parlors for 2 weeks and not feel a sting.Most 'Mericans really have no idea how good Europeans have it.
Eric Swiss
03-13-14, 03:36
France for example is on borrowed time.One third of children born in France are blacks or arabs. In the Paris metropolitan area it is 60 percent. So yes France is on borrowed time.
Most 'Mericans really have no idea how good Europeans have it.Ahh, Mr. Goat. Regardless of MMT, there is still one immutable truth in the universe. There ain't no free lunch. :)
Europeans had it so great because bonehead Uncle Sucker paid for all of their national defense against the Red Hordes from the East. You and I know it, as do the Europeans. Had the USA forced western Europe to shoulder their costs of maintaining a Soviet deterrent, believe me they would not have had the money to develop their vast social welfare programs.
However, one cost has been traditionally high and chronic unemployment. It's damned difficult for a European company to shed employees during a soft economy. GM learned that lesson after signing ruinous contracts with the UAW. Ones that mandated that laid-off workers would still collect 85% of their pay, you could only reduce a factory to 85% of production, etc. Now that Chrysler is doing better, guess whose profits are going to prop up an Italian auto industry that has the exact same contract structure and the exact same problems? There ain't no free lunch.
The birth rate in Germany is through the floor. Something like 1. 3 to 1. Guess who's taking over and doing all the work the Germans won't (and can't because there ain't enough of 'them)? Folks from a culture that has never integrated well with any other in history.
The most common name in the Netherlands, I read someplace, is now Mohammed. France has a hell of a problem with Islamic slums ringing Paris. Coincidence?
The French and Spanish economies are in a shambles. Hmmm, and they both recently embraced the Socialist party? Coincidence?
Oh, and Italy, the bastion of political stability and an economic model for the world has a fertility rate barely above Germany. And their unemployment rate is just under 13. But they have lots of vacation, so there is that.
The obvious fact is that when you have this sort of "prosperity," for whatever reason you stop having kids. After a couple of generations you no longer have a recognizable country. Germany and Italy, as we know them, will cease to exist before the century is out. With them go the neat-o countries where you can make lots of money doing little and have months of vacation and free health care. In the meantime, there will be no retirement for those "lucky" enough to have jobs. They'll keep working until they drop, merely to support the social infrastructure that supports everybody who's not working. There ain't no free lunch.
Now the USA is headed down the same road. Between low white fertility rates, high Latin fertility rates, illegal immigration, legal immigration almost 100% from the third world and an ever expanding list of bennies for freeloaders, Greece, here we come! Maybe just a bit slower. (Or maybe not. About 90 million people have left the job market since BO's inauguration. That's damn near a third of the entire population!) Oh, and about 55 million abortions in the last 40 years and around 20 million illegal immigrants. Hmm. Coincidence? Don't know. But there ain't no free lunch.
Wolvenvacht
03-13-14, 07:23
Obvious that they keep out certain races as much as possible. Although I do commend them for getting rid of the Racial Purity Board and the forced mass sterilizations.There is only one race: the human race.
And the US Civil Rights Act was not passed till the 60s. So, what's your point?787's point is that all benevolent social utopias seem to have this seedy, dark, scary side. You know, breaking eggs to make an omelet.
The USA, for instance, began their love affair with socialism around the turn of the 20th century. It promised utopia. The main engine of change was the "science" of eugenics. We'd engineer a healthy, crime- and poverty-free society. All of Europe loved the idea, too. Unfortunately, we got things like a racist Woodrow Wilson and his war to end all wars, the beginning of the war on black families via Planned Parenthood, Prohibition, the Great Depression and the income tax, just to name a few.
Germany simply took this pseudo-science to another level and killed off their untermenschen. Scandanavia tried to sterilize their way to racial purity.
Get the movie Rabbit-proof Fence to see what the Ozzies liked to do to their indigenous population.
The Asians got a late start. Not to be outdone, they apparently didn't want to wait and breed a better society. They just murdered their way to it.
One of the scariest phrases known to man is "I'm from the government and I'm here to make your life better."
Speaking of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, we should start a separate thread on what the CRA, the War on Poverty, and the socialist's breathtakingly paternalistic view of black people have done to black American society.
Ahh, Mr. Goat. Regardless of MMT, there is still one immutable truth in the universe. There ain't no free lunch. .
Europeans had it so great because bonehead Uncle Sucker paid for all of their national defense against the Red Hordes from the East. You and I know it, as do the Europeans. Had the USA forced western Europe to shoulder their costs of maintaining a Soviet deterrent, believe me they would not have had the money to develop their vast social welfare programs.
However, one cost has been traditionally high and chronic unemployment. It's damned difficult for a European company to shed employees during a soft economy. GM learned that lesson after signing ruinous contracts with the UAW. Ones that mandated that laid-off workers would still collect 85% of their pay, you could only reduce a factory to 85% of production, etc. Now that Chrysler is doing better, guess whose profits are going to prop up an Italian auto industry that has the exact same contract structure and the exact same problems? There ain't no free lunch.
The birth rate in Germany is through the floor. Something like 1. 3 to 1. Guess who's taking over and doing all the work the Germans won't (and can't because there ain't enough of 'them)? Folks from a culture that has never integrated well with any other in history.
The most common name in the Netherlands, I read someplace, is now Mohammed. France has a hell of a problem with Islamic slums ringing Paris. Coincidence?
The French and Spanish economies are in a shambles. Hmmm, and they both recently embraced the Socialist party? Coincidence?
Oh, and Italy, the bastion of political stability and an economic model for the world has a fertility rate barely above Germany. And their unemployment rate is just under 13. But they have lots of vacation, so there is that.
The obvious fact is that when you have this sort of "prosperity," for whatever reason you stop having kids. After a couple of generations you no longer have a recognizable country. Germany and Italy, as we know them, will cease to exist before the century is out. With them go the neat-o countries where you can make lots of money doing little and have months of vacation and free health care. In the meantime, there will be no retirement for those "lucky" enough to have jobs. They'll keep working until they drop, merely to support the social infrastructure that supports everybody who's not working. There ain't no free lunch.
Now the USA is headed down the same road. Between low white fertility rates, high Latin fertility rates, illegal immigration, legal immigration almost 100% from the third world and an ever expanding list of bennies for freeloaders, Greece, here we come! Maybe just a bit slower. (Or maybe not. About 90 million people have left the job market since BO's inauguration. That's damn near a third of the entire population!) Oh, and about 55 million abortions in the last 40 years and around 20 million illegal immigrants. Hmm. Coincidence? Don't know. But there ain't no free lunch.Greece is a different story. They did not have their own sovereign currency. You are barking up the wrong tree. The question you need to ask is why you don't have the same benefits as others. There is no reason you should not. You have been sold an enormous bill of goods. With automation all of us should be able to work less and make more. Only those at the very top don't see it that way. You don't have to work to "support" others. But that belief keeps you voting the same way and diverts the blame from where it belong; on those at the top.
And it was American advisors that helped Europe design its social system after the war. Too bad Roose did not live long enough to see his second bill of rights enacted. If he would have, the US would be a pretty nice place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights
Employment, with a living wage.
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies.
Housing.
Medical care.
Education.
Social security.
It should be difficult for companies to shed workers during a soft point. In many countries the gov helps companies out so that folks can keep working and spending. The key is close to full employment. If private industry won't hire the gov must. Time for infrastructure projects. Hell, build a new power infrastructure. Build gas lines across the US. Make the US energy independent.
Seems you are getting your info on the EU from where? Northern Europe is doing quite well.
You're not an anti-abortion monger are you? Wow, that would be an odd one. Next thing you know we will have Christian mongers.
Not having kids is a good thing. The planet already has too many folks as it is. Need to look at it on a country by country basis. Countries that are over populated should institute a one child policy, those that are not should encourage people to have more.
One of the scariest phrases known to man is "I'm from the government and I'm here to make your life better."Far scarier is the marriage of gov and private industry, which you see in the US. I don't trust the gov, but I trust private industry even less.
Paul Kausch
03-13-14, 09:16
Far scarier is the marriage of gov and private industry, which you see in the US. I don't trust the gov, but I trust private industry even less.Based on my experience working in and dealing with the public and private sectors I would say the difference is the politicians and civil service bureaucrats are crooks while the leaders of the private sector are very smart crooks, who own the politicians. Interesting interview on CSNBC with the CEO of Softbank about the slow and expensive broadband in the USA compared to other countries. Wonder why?
Western787
03-13-14, 10:11
Far scarier is the marriage of gov and private industry, which you see in the US.True, and giving donations and getting kickbacked govt subsidies in return. The worst.
Obama's green list (most now bankrupt)
Evergreen Solar.
SpectraWatt.
Solyndra (received $535 million)
Beacon Power (received $43 million)
AES' subsidiary Eastern Energy.
Nevada Geothermal (received $98. 5 million)
SunPower (received $1. 5 billion)
First Solar (received $1. 46 billion)
Babcock & Brown (an Australian company which received $178 million)
Ener1 (subsidiary EnerDel received $118. 5 million)
Amonix (received 5. 9 million)
The National Renewable Energy Lab.
Fisker Automotive.
Abound Solar (received $400 million)
Chevy Volt (taxpayers basically own GM)
Solar Trust of America.
A123 Systems (received $279 million)
Willard & Kelsey Solar Group (received $6 million)
Johnson Controls (received $299 million)
Schneider Electric (received $86 million)
Sweden pays for grim past.And? These facts are no news, but your insistence on that only appears to smearing a country for no particular reason. Beside, you keep going to race issues, and that is not allowed per forum rules.
Suggestion: try saying something relevant to Thailand Politics instead.
Far scarier is the marriage of gov and private industry, which you see in the US. I don't trust the gov, but I trust private industry even less.In point of fact the public / private dichotomy is a false one. All policy is State policy, and 'private industry' is merely aristocratic fiefdom assigned by the State to the privileged class.
Based on my experience working in and dealing with the public and private sectors I would say the difference is the politicians and civil service bureaucrats are crooks while the leaders of the private sector are very smart crooks, who own the politicians. Interesting interview on CSNBC with the CEO of Softbank about the slow and expensive broadband in the USA compared to other countries. Wonder why?And when you get those two in cahoots, you have a real problem, ie. The current situation in the US.
True, and giving donations and getting kickbacked govt subsidies in return. The worst.
Obama's green list (most now bankrupt)
Evergreen Solar.
SpectraWatt.
Solyndra (received $535 million)
Beacon Power (received $43 million)
AES' subsidiary Eastern Energy.
Nevada Geothermal (received $98. 5 million)
SunPower (received $1. 5 billion)
First Solar (received $1. 46 billion)
Babcock & Brown (an Australian company which received $178 million)
Ener1 (subsidiary EnerDel received $118. 5 million)
Amonix (received 5. 9 million)
The National Renewable Energy Lab.
Fisker Automotive.
Abound Solar (received $400 million)
Chevy Volt (taxpayers basically own GM)
Solar Trust of America.
A123 Systems (received $279 million)
Willard & Kelsey Solar Group (received $6 million)
Johnson Controls (received $299 million)
Schneider Electric (received $86 million) All chump change compared to what gets pissed away on defense.
Paul Kausch
03-13-14, 17:42
In point of fact the public / private dichotomy is a false one. All policy is State policy, and 'private industry' is merely aristocratic fiefdom assigned by the State to the privileged class.Russia works this way. Has for many centuries.
In the USA the private sector decides which politicians have enough money to win elections; who holds cabinet posts; who is appointed to key government oversight bodies; how government regulations are written; how bills are drafted; etcetera, etcetera. Not complaining; just describing the way it works.
Think about the fight between the Tea Party and the traditional GOP and what is really behind this.
Western787
03-13-14, 18:29
And? These facts are no news, but your insistence on that only appears to smearing a country for no particular reason. Beside, you keep going to race issues, and that is not allowed per forum rules.
Suggestion: try saying something relevant to Thailand Politics instead.Ok the deaths of the little kids (minding their own business just shopping with their Mom) in Siam in late Feb seemed to be a wakeup call to both sides, and combined with the mess in Kiev on the news each night, both sides seemed to finally realize they are were close to destroying the golden goose. So now there is a chance at least they can talk and maybe compromise. In other words, keep growing the pie bigger which Capitalism does best and then you can spend less time fighting over an ever shrinking pie like Obama and other socialists do in other countries.
True, and giving donations and getting kickbacked govt subsidies in return. The worst.
Obama's green list (most now bankrupt)
Evergreen Solar.
SpectraWatt.
Solyndra (received $535 million)
Beacon Power (received $43 million)
AES' subsidiary Eastern Energy.
Nevada Geothermal (received $98. 5 million)
SunPower (received $1. 5 billion)
First Solar (received $1. 46 billion)
Babcock & Brown (an Australian company which received $178 million)
Ener1 (subsidiary EnerDel received $118. 5 million)
Amonix (received 5. 9 million)
The National Renewable Energy Lab.
Fisker Automotive.
Abound Solar (received $400 million)
Chevy Volt (taxpayers basically own GM)
Solar Trust of America.
A123 Systems (received $279 million)
Willard & Kelsey Solar Group (received $6 million)
Johnson Controls (received $299 million)
Schneider Electric (received $86 million) So I just looked at one of those at random: Amonix.
Funding:
Amonix received $129. 4 million in a Series B financing round, which closed in April 2010. Amonix previously raised $25 million in Series A funding, and also received $15. 6 million in grant funding through the Department of Energy Solar America Initiative (SAI).
Investors:
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.
MissionPoint Capital Partners.
Angeleno Group.
PCG Clean Energy & Technology Fund.
Vedanta Capital.
New Silk Route.
The Westly Group.
Adams Street Partners.
Goldman Sachs.
Vedante Capital.
So a whole bunch of blue chip investors thought the company was a good bet, and they privately and independently, through the great god of the capitalist free market system, raised nearly 155 million USD. The government then gave them a grant of about 10% of their equity, which was probably a very small percentage of their market cap. Seems a pretty straightforward policy that most Western governments would follow (unless it was Defense, in which case the grants / loans would have been vastly higher).
Russia works this way. Has for many centuries.
In the USA the private sector decides which politicians have enough money to win elections; who holds cabinet posts; who is appointed to key government oversight bodies; how government regulations are written; how bills are drafted; etcetera, etcetera. Not complaining; just describing the way it works.
Yes, as I said - a false dichotomy. You're describing the reason the rich are rich - they control the State.
Ok the deaths of the little kids (minding their own business just shopping with their Mom) in Siam in late Feb seemed to be a wakeup call to both sides, and combined with the mess in Kiev on the news each night, both sides seemed to finally realize they are were close to destroying the golden goose. So now there is a chance at least they can talk and maybe compromise. In other words, keep growing the pie bigger which Capitalism does best and then you can spend less time fighting over an ever shrinking pie like Obama and other socialists do in other countries.Fantastic. Just one last curiosity, do you pitch the same US / Obama / Capitalism sermons to your Thai ladies as well? What is their reaction to that infliction? One Thai virtue is tolerance but it's put to hard test by your spinning.
Paul Kausch
03-13-14, 23:07
Yes, as I said - a false dichotomy. You're describing the reason the rich are rich - they control the State.Everywhere there is a connection between the state and the economy. In some countries, like China, the state controls much of the economic activity. In modern Russia the state decided who will be the oligarchs, and when it is time to strip some of them of their wealth and send them to a gulag. In the USA wealthy private individuals and corporations control the economy and decide who will carry out state functions. Though fraught with problems, I think the last system enables more technological advance and a higher standard of living for more people than the first two systems. Contrary to what some people on ISG mistakenly believe, as the 21st Century progresses the economic and military gap between the USA and the rest of the world will only widen.
I'm not saying any of the following is either good or bad, but the facts are the USA defense department is beginning to roll out a new generation of military systems that change the paradigm: ships that require one-tenth the manpower and are armed with weapon system that do not use antiquated explosive ordnances are being put into service; new generations of drones are being developed. In a couple of years soldiers will wear combat systems, complete with sensors, armor, weapons and personal propulsion technology, that look like something out of the Iron Man movies; infantry squads will consist of a couple of humans and several robots. In a few years the USA will be the world's largest energy producer and a net energy exporter. No other country in the world is even close to mastering and implementing the fracking and horizontal drilling technology the USA energy sector is using. While China and the USA have roughly comparable domestic manufacturing output, when you measure global manufacturing output by Chinese and USA corporations, China lags far behind; and most of China's manufacturing is making simple products, flip-flops are an extreme example, while the USA manufactures jet aircraft, industrial turbines and other highly sophisticated products; and as energy costs for USA industries drop dramatically and robotics continue to advance, USA companies are bringing more manufacturing back to the USA. The primary limiter on how fast this happens is the number of people with vocational-technical education to operate these automated factories. As I write this post there are over one million unfilled positions in the USA manufacturing sector with starting salaries for qualified people with no prior work experience in excess of US$60K and a top end at or above US$100K. And if these positions could be filled millions more would be quickly created.
The biggest challenge facing the USA in the 21st Century is how to divvy up the vast wealth that will be created over the course of the rest of this century.
FYI, I'm not some fanatic, flag waving Amerikan flaunting how great the good the ol' USA is. In fact in the not too distant future I plan to say good bye and immerse myself in some other cultures.
Russia works this way. Has for many centuries.
In the USA the private sector decides which politicians have enough money to win elections; who holds cabinet posts; who is appointed to key government oversight bodies; how government regulations are written; how bills are drafted; etcetera, etcetera. Not complaining; just describing the way it works.
Think about the fight between the Tea Party and the traditional GOP and what is really behind this.Correct, the gov in the US is not "for the people." It is for the monied interests. Really always has been for the most part.
far scarier is the marriage of gov and private industry, which you see in the us. i don't trust the gov, but i trust private industry even less.private industry, in and of itself, has no power. bill gates can't hold a gun to your head and make you buy windows. mcdonalds can't insist you buy their burgers and, if you don't, imprison you and confirep001e your property. government can, and has a long, sordid track record of doing just that.
however, many big businesses have corrupted the political process and bribed all and sundry in washington (and sacramento). and that is a problem. big business likes big government because they can throw enough money around to get their way. it's also a protection racket run by uncle. shower me with "campaign donations" and i'll make sure our next round of business-killing legislation won't affect you. why do you suppose no wall street chiseler has yet to see the inside of a jail cell?
so, i agree with you. when big business and big gov't get together they can come up with all sorts of very scary stuff. that's why i prefer to do business with small businesses whenever possible.
Greece is a different story. They did not have their own sovereign currency. You are barking up the wrong tree. The question you need to ask is why you don't have the same benefits as others. There is no reason you should not. You have been sold an enormous bill of goods. With automation all of us should be able to work less and make more. Only those at the very top don't see it that way. You don't have to work to "support" others. But that belief keeps you voting the same way and diverts the blame from where it belong; on those at the top.
And it was American advisors that helped Europe design its social system after the war. Too bad Roose did not live long enough to see his second bill of rights enacted. If he would have, the US would be a pretty nice place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights
Employment, with a living wage.
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies.
Housing.
Medical care.
Education.
Social security.
It should be difficult for companies to shed workers during a soft point. In many countries the gov helps companies out so that folks can keep working and spending. The key is close to full employment. If private industry won't hire the gov must. Time for infrastructure projects. Hell, build a new power infrastructure. Build gas lines across the US. Make the US energy independent.
Seems you are getting your info on the EU from where? Northern Europe is doing quite well.
You're not an anti-abortion monger are you? Wow, that would be an odd one. Next thing you know we will have Christian mongers.
Not having kids is a good thing. The planet already has too many folks as it is. Need to look at it on a country by country basis. Countries that are over populated should institute a one child policy, those that are not should encourage people to have more.Your automation theory is OK, but you've left out one crucial point. The steel industry, automobile industry, textile industry, just to name a few, could have been highly automated years ago. Why not? Instead those industries are a shadow of what they could have been. Why? Labor unions. This parasite has killed every host to which it was attached.
Everybody loves soft, nebulous terms like "living wage." What does that mean? My living wage may be completely different to yours. It's a worthless term.
Monopolies are a bugaboo used to gull idiots into giving the government more power. Name a couple of non-government-sponsored monopolies that lasted longer than a decade or two. Hell, even the railroad barons, long a target of ire, reduced prices and improved service every year. Can the same be said of AT&T and Bell? In other words, in a truly free market a monopoly can't long exist.
I'd much rather pay for good health care than to get bad free care (see Canada) , but that's another thread.
The US has free K-12 "education." It's fraudulent. It's run by an evil cabal of government and unions. LAUSD has the highest paid teachers in the nation (or 2nd highest, depending on New York) , yet has a roughly 50% (some say more) dropout rate. Graduates are borderline functionally illiterate, especially in the heavily minority districts. Yes, more Rooseveltian Utopia. Although, to be fair, FDR was against unionizing government, for good reason.
Where does Uncle get the money to pay some guy who has been laid off? Just print it? Tax somebody else? Those are the options. They can't add anything to the private sector. Why make the guy work at all? Just pay them to stay home. Rome (and GM) tried that and look how well it paid off for them. Look how well FDR's WPA worked. They were notorious for inefficiency and costliness. Did it help the unemployment picture? Not a bit. Since BO took office around 92,000,000 people have given up looking for work and left the work force. So, instead the Feds should hire them? Really? We need 90 MILLION more unionized government drones who can't be fired, don't have to work and get fat pensions? The mind boggles. Why don't we just disband the private sector altogether and then we'll have full employment? Wait, I think that's been tried.
As far as energy goes, good idea. Now tell that to the greenies who run the nation's energy policy. I read just this week how the USA is now in the position to exceed Saudi Arabia in oil production, thanks to fracking. But I'll let you in on a little secret. A large government DOESN'T WANT people to be independent, to make their own money, to have cheap fuel, etc, etc. If they all had that, why would they need a big government? So, you'll never see the current administration do anything resembling working toward energy independence.
As far a overpopulation goes, another Big Gov't canard. You can take the entire population of the world, divvy them up into 4-person households, put them all in a 1500 square foot houses and fit them all into the state of Texas. Yes, that's absurd but I'm simply illustrating absurdity. Poverty is created by an unequal distribution of capitalism, not unequal distribution of population.
Your automation theory is OK, but you've left out one crucial point. The steel industry, automobile industry, textile industry, just to name a few, could have been highly automated years ago. Why not? Instead those industries are a shadow of what they could have been. Why? Labor unions. This parasite has killed every host to which it was attached.
Everybody loves soft, nebulous terms like "living wage." What does that mean? My living wage may be completely different to yours. It's a worthless term.
Monopolies are a bugaboo used to gull idiots into giving the government more power. Name a couple of non-government-sponsored monopolies that lasted longer than a decade or two. Hell, even the railroad barons, long a target of ire, reduced prices and improved service every year. Can the same be said of AT&T and Bell?
I'd much rather pay for good health care than to get bad free care (see Canada) , but that's another thread.
The US has free K-12 "education." It's fraudulent. It's run by an evil cabal of government and unions. LAUSD has the highest paid teachers in the nation (or 2nd highest, depending on New York) , yet has a roughly 50% (some say more) dropout rate. Graduates are borderline functionally illiterate, especially in the heavily minority districts. Yes, more Rooseveltian Utopia. Although, to be fair, FDR was against unionizing government, for good reason.
Where does Uncle get the money to pay some guy who has been laid off? Just print it? Tax somebody else? Those are the options. They can't add anything to the private sector. Why make the guy work at all? Just pay them to stay home. Rome (and GM) tried that and look how well it paid off for them. Look how well FDR's WPA worked. They were notorious for inefficiency and costliness. Did it help the unemployment picture? Not a bit.
As far as energy goes, good idea. Now tell that to the greenies who run the nation's energy policy. I read just this week how the USA is now in the position to exceed Saudi Arabia in oil production, thanks to fracking. But I'll let you in on a little secret. A large government DOESN'T WANT people to be independent, to make their own money, to have cheap fuel, etc, etc. If they all had that, why would they need a big government? So, you'll never see the current administration do anything resembling working toward energy independence.
As far a overpopulation goes, another Big Gov't canard. You can take the entire population of the world, divvy them up into 4-person households, put them all in a 1500 square foot houses and fit them all into the state of Texas. Yes, that's absurd but I'm simply illustrating absurdity. Poverty is created by an unequal distribution of capitalism, not unequal distribution of population.Labor unions and high taxes are the only reasons workers every made a good wage and had proper treatment in the US.
Most Canadians I know as well as most Europeans are quite satisfied with their health care systems.
Evil cabal of gov and unions? For the most part states that pay teachers the least and are the misnamed "right to work states" are the ones that perform the poorest.
Rome was doomed by expansion and the want to keep an empire. See the US military on that.
Oil companies don't want cheap energy.
During the 30s things were improving with FDR's policies until the idiots on the other side of the aisle started cutting stimulus in '37.
What we are seeing now is the endgame of US style crony capitalism. Marx was wrong about communism, but spot on about how capitalism will eat itself. We are seeing it today.
The gov can't add anything to the private sector? Umm, how about we cut out all the money that flows from the gov to private contractors. Quite a bit there in the defense industry alone. Those are in effect gov created jobs. The military is gov created jobs as well.
Your analogy about TX and population is quite misleading. It takes a certain amount of arable land to sustain populations, not to mention fresh water. Not a gov canard at all.
Print money? Why you are onto something there! The gov is the only source of sov currency. It can create it and take it out of circulation at will. The US will never default on its debt.
A little on sov currency. Most folks really don't get it. They listen to soundbites on the news about debt and deficit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35uBVeNp6c
I am often amazed at folks who rant about the "gov," when the real villains are the folks like the Kochs etc who are buying politicians. Gov can serve the population, but it sure doesn't in the US.
One of the main reasons that monopolies have not lasted is laws restricting them. A decade or two? That is certainly way too long. Look at what has happened to the state of media in the US since de-reg. Owned by a few and I mean a few companies with all outlets towing to corporate line.
So, I agree with you. When big business and big gov't get together they can come up with all sorts of very scary stuff. That's why I prefer to do business with small businesses whenever possible.Me too. Buy higher quality, buy less, buy local. Costs more but you end up with a quality product that someone stands behind.
Glad we have a little common ground!
Paul Kausch
03-14-14, 04:45
Your automation theory is OK, but you've left out one crucial point. The steel industry, automobile industry, textile industry, just to name a few, could have been highly automated years ago. Why not? Instead those industries are a shadow of what they could have been. Why? Labor unions. This parasite has killed every host to which it was attached.I sympathize with unorganized laborers and understand the formation of labor unions in the USA was an inevitable reaction to abuses by employers in the early 20th Century. Still, I share your disdain for the result and agree labor unions played a major role in the demise of the steel and automobile industries in the USA. However, the USA textile industry's problem was not unions. It was industry integration and globalization.
The textile industry ranges from producing yarn and cloth to designing and manufacturing clothes. The 20th Century USA textile industry was not heavily unionized. In the early 20th Century clothing manufacturing was done in sweat shops by immigrant labor. By the late 20th Century even at minimum wages these could not compete with garment factories in South and Southeast Asia and Central America. Yarn and cloth production occurred primarily in Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia and Alabama. There was no union presence in the textile mills in that region. In the 1970s and 1980s industry integration and globalization forced almost all of the textile mills in these states to shut down. Even though wages in the USA textile industry were very low, it was impossible for it to compete with the minuscule wages workers in Bangladesh and Cambodia, for example, made. And as resent tragic events have demonstrated workplace safety is virtually nonexistent in apparel factories in these countries. Automation can be applied to the manufacture of apparel. It is a question of costs. As long as garments can be produced cheaper in Bangladesh by a room full of ladies working in horrible and unsafe conditions than in an automated factory in the USA or Europe, USA and EU apparel companies and retailers will look to Bangladesh for product. When it becomes advantageous to invest in automated factories in the USA and Europe this will happen and the garment industry in Bangladesh will diminish.
Costs are comprised of more than just labor. Transportation and logistical factors are also relevant. All things being equal, a company in the USA would prefer to get product domestically and not have to pay to ship it across the Pacific and deal with a 12 time zone difference. As the 21st Century progresses automated manufacturing is going to increase in the USA and Europe. As I wrote in my previous post, in the USA a lack of qualified workers is slowing this down. Public schools do an abysmal job educating students, our university system is overdeveloped and our vocational-technical education system in underdeveloped. The USA Government could stop supporting student loans for online degrees in social work and invest heavily in voctec education, but there are powerful lobbies pressuring the government to keep on keeping on.
Unfortunately, I witnessed this first hand. Towards the end of my career in higher education I was assigned to a statewide committee comprised of people from the state's university system and the vocational education system. The politicians wanted us to figure out how the two systems could cooperate and offer better educational choices to the state's citizens. Sadly, those of us from the university system were told by the people who ran it to do whatever necessary to thwart the committee from achieving its goals.
Suppose the USA and Europe introduce domestic automated manufacturing on a large scale. Manufacturing will shift away from Asia. What are the implications of destroying the garment industry in Bangladesh? Three percent growth is good in the USA, in China it would be a disaster. What would happen if China experienced a period of prolonged economic contraction? Bangladesh is a small country; the consequences would be relatively small. That would not be the case with China.
We live in a complicated and very interconnected world.
The capitalists think beyond nation-states. Their goal is to grow the global economy and increase the number of and spending power of consumers. Bringing 10% of China's population into the middle class has more value than dropping 10% of the USA's population from the middle class.
Hey brothers,
Excuse me, but are we all not straying too far away from the thread and forum topics of discussion here?
NM
The capitalists think beyond nation-states. Their goal is to grow the global economy and increase the number of and spending power of consumers. Bringing 10% of China's population into the middle class has more value than dropping 10% of the USA's population from the middle class.I really wish that was the case. The capitalist goal is to put as much money in their pockets and the pockets of their shareholders no matter what the cost. Destroying or acquiring their competition, exploit labor, make that money by any means necessary.
From my book labor is always superior to capital. Organized there is no doubt. Organized labor scares the hell out of capitalists. That is why violence has been used against it in so many instances.
With the abuses continuing even in places like the US where people are working more and more for less, it is time for a new worldwide labor movement.
Many nations seem to have it figured out though. Germany for one. Workers are paid a great salary and owners still make a little.
Profit is the end result of a well run business after all else is taken care of.
Paul Kausch
03-14-14, 06:16
Automation can be applied to the manufacture of apparel. It is a question of costs. As long as garments can be produced cheaper in Bangladesh by a room full of ladies working in horrible and unsafe conditions than in an automated factory in the USA or Europe, USA and EU apparel companies and retailers will look to Bangladesh for product. When it becomes advantageous to invest in automated factories in the USA and Europe this will happen and the garment industry in Bangladesh will diminish.
The capitalists think beyond nation-states. Their goal is to grow the global economy and increase the number of and spending power of consumers. Bringing 10% of China's population into the middle class has more value than dropping 10% of the USA's population from the middle class.
The capitalist goal is to put as much money in their pockets and the pockets of their shareholders no matter what the cost.Goat, we're saying the same thing. Increasing global consumer purchasing power leads to increasing sales (revenues). By increasing revenues more than expenses profits increase. By the way, what was a topic of interest at Davos this past January? The problem of the shrinking middle class in the developed world and its diminishing purchasing power. To maximize their wealth the capitalists need large numbers of people who have the means to consume. Billions of poor peasants living hand to mouth make poor customers.
I sympathize with unorganized laborers and understand the formation of labor unions in the USA was an inevitable reaction to abuses by employers in the early 20th Century. Still, I share your disdain for the result and agree labor unions played a major role in the demise of the steel and automobile industries in the USA. However, the USA textile industry's problem was not unions. It was industry integration and globalization.Yes, we're on the same page concerning the unions and the dreadful state of education in this country. I'm all for high wages and good benefits. But one's productivity must increase commensurately. Every company I work with would much rather produce locally, hire locally, etc. But silly "prevailing wage" laws, overweening government regulations, high taxes, an illiterate workforce, etc, make doing so almost impossible. Forcing a company to pay $50 / hour to somebody who can only produce $10 / hour of goods is a sure-fire way to go bankrupt or ensure that production is moved offshore.
I really wish that was the case. The capitalist goal is to put as much money in their pockets and the pockets of their shareholders no matter what the cost. Destroying or acquiring their competition, exploit labor, make that money by any means necessary.
From my book labor is always superior to capital. Organized there is no doubt. Organized labor scares the hell out of capitalists. That is why violence has been used against it in so many instances.
With the abuses continuing even in places like the US where people are working more and more for less, it is time for a new worldwide labor movement.
Many nations seem to have it figured out though. Germany for one. Workers are paid a great salary and owners still make a little.
Profit is the end result of a well run business after all else is taken care of.That is such 19th century thinking. The easiest way for an "exploited" laborer to become less exploited is to make himself more valuable to the free market, not [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) and moan about low wages. In this country anybody can get an education if they really want it. If you're an adult there are buttloads of free night school, reasonably priced community colleges offering all sorts of vocational classes, and so on.
I don't know about you, but I certainly didn't start at the top. I got a semblance of an education, got a job and worked my ass off. As I gained more experience and became more valuable I found higher paying jobs. I took continuing education classes, home study courses, whatever. I certainly didn't sit around pissing and moaning about being oppressed by the man, and how it was my right to be able to buy a house, two cars, support a wife and kids and take an annual vacation on a McDonald's salary.
Yes, folks here are working more for less. Actually, fewer people are working than every before, and most have given up in the last 5 years. Think about it.
Also, name a US industry that has improved their product, improved profitability, improved efficiency, or whatever, while being unionized. There a reason that private sector union membership in the US has been declining for decades. People have figured out that they don't need 'them.
Germany is interesting because they're having to redesign production facilities to accommodate older workers. No lifting, standing, etc. There won't be any manufacturing in Germany in another 50 years because there won't be any Germans to run the factories.
labor unions and high taxes are the only reasons workers every made a good wage and had proper treatment in the us.
most canadians i know as well as most europeans are quite satisfied with their health care systems.
evil cabal of gov and unions? for the most part states that pay teachers the least and are the misnamed "right to work states" are the ones that perform the poorest.
rome was doomed by expansion and the want to keep an empire. see the us military on that.
oil companies don't want cheap energy.
during the 30s things were improving with fdr's policies until the idiots on the other side of the aisle started cutting stimulus in '37.
what we are seeing now is the endgame of us style crony capitalism. marx was wrong about communism, but spot on about how capitalism will eat itself. we are seeing it today.
the gov can't add anything to the private sector? umm, how about we cut out all the money that flows from the gov to private contractors. quite a bit there in the defense industry alone. those are in effect gov created jobs. the military is gov created jobs as well.
your analogy about tx and population is quite misleading. it takes a certain amount of arable land to sustain populations, not to mention fresh water. not a gov canard at all.
print money? why you are onto something there! the gov is the only source of sov currency. it can create it and take it out of circulation at will. the us will never default on its debt.
a little on sov currency. most folks really don't get it. they listen to soundbites on the news about debt and deficit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i35ubvenp6c
i am often amazed at folks who rant about the "gov," when the real villains are the folks like the kochs etc who are buying politicians. gov can serve the population, but it sure doesn't in the us.
one of the main reasons that monopolies have not lasted is laws restricting them. a decade or two? that is certainly way too long. look at what has happened to the state of media in the us since de-reg. owned by a few and i mean a few companies with all outlets towing to corporate line.labor unions exist for the benefit of the people who run the unions. always have.
we know different canadians, apparently. a friend of mine once needed an mri, badly. i believe he said the wait was 9 months. i got one in a day.
the entire education system in this country is broken, or maybe we just don't care. dc has the highest per-pupil expenditure in the country and the very worst schools. the teachers union gives not a shit and refuses any sort of reform. ca has the highest paid teachers and 50% dropout rate. a staggering percentage of the adults in detroit are functionally illiterate. your performance claims are inaccurate. but, in fairness, we can obviously afford top notch education (private educations are far less than the $30k / year dc spends) , so maybe we really want this? or nobody gives a shit. either way, we're doomed.
rome was doomed by several things, but among the largest was a byzantine and oppressive tax structure that discouraged work. no work, idle masses flocked to rome. what to do? entertain 'them. how is that different from make-shift gov't jobs?
i've worked for an oil company. they want people to buy their product. if it's too expensive nobody buys it. how is that good? oil companies make about a 10 cent profit on a gallon of gas, and they had to obtain the oil (maybe they drilled it, maybe they bought it) , refine it, market it, ship it, etc, etc. i'm happy to let them keep a dime of profit. now the gov't takes many multiples of that dime, and for what? has the dept. of energy ever produced a gallon of gas, pumped a barrel of oil? now radical arab states love high oil prices because they can spend the money on weapons. other arab and south american states love high prices because they can fund their massive welfare states. greenies love it because they can feel self-righteous that they're saving the planet by riding a bike or driving a prius or some nonsense.
things didn't improve one iota under fdr. even his treasury secretary, rosenthal (?) said as much. here's a fun fact. in the beginning of the '20s there was a big recession. what did coolidge do? nothing. what happened? it corrected itself, the economy boomed and ushered in what we call the roaring '20s. we had a recession in 1929, but now big-gov't gop hoover was in office. unemployment quickly went up, reaching just over 9% by december, but never over 10. unemployment began to decline slowly but steadily starting in january. it was somewhere around 7 or 8 percent by june, when hoover rode to the rescue with his spending bills. guess what? unemployment started rising again and was over 10% by december. when starts taking money out of the private sector and hiring people, what else do you expect? from that point on, unemployment never went below 14% and most years it was over 20. it didn't decline to pre-1929 levels until 1942. so much for fdr's (and hoover's) big ideas. 13 years of depression? is that what passes for success?
oddly, the great depression was only "great" in the usa. no other country's gov't so massively intruded into the private sector during that time. coincidentally, no other country had such massive economic problems.
actually, rand predicted the results of crony capitalism.
there is plenty of arable land, and plenty of food. famines and starvation these days are 100% the result of some government manipulation or war.
look at the media. nobody reads them any more and they are dying. but look at the internet, the free market of media. it seems to be doing quite well. de-reg had nothing to do with it. but de-reg has resulted in your ability to cheaply use your phone lines to access high speed internet, the ability to fly around the world cheaply, just to name two obvious ones. government monopolies are the only ones that last and they stifle competition. consumers are far less well-off when dealing with a non-responsive gov't monopoly than a private sector monopoly (if you can find one).
Yes, we're on the same page concerning the unions and the dreadful state of education in this country. I'm all for high wages and good benefits. But one's productivity must increase commensurately. Every company I work with would much rather produce locally, hire locally, etc. But silly "prevailing wage" laws, overweening government regulations, high taxes, an illiterate workforce, etc, make doing so almost impossible. Forcing a company to pay $50 / hour to somebody who can only produce $10 / hour of goods is a sure-fire way to go bankrupt or ensure that production is moved offshore.Productivity and wages rose equally till the late 70s. Productivity has continued to rise, wages have not.
labor unions exist for the benefit of the people who run the unions. always have.
we know different canadians, apparently. a friend of mine once needed an mri, badly. i believe he said the wait was 9 months. i got one in a day.
the entire education system in this country is broken, or maybe we just don't care. dc has the highest per-pupil expenditure in the country and the very worst schools. the teachers union gives not a shit and refuses any sort of reform. ca has the highest paid teachers and 50% dropout rate. a staggering percentage of the adults in detroit are functionally illiterate. your performance claims are inaccurate. but, in fairness, we can obviously afford top notch education (private educations are far less than the $30k / year dc spends) , so maybe we really want this? or nobody gives a shit. either way, we're doomed.
rome was doomed by several things, but among the largest was a byzantine and oppressive tax structure that discouraged work. no work, idle masses flocked to rome. what to do? entertain 'them. how is that different from make-shift gov't jobs?
i've worked for an oil company. they want people to buy their product. if it's too expensive nobody buys it. how is that good? oil companies make about a 10 cent profit on a gallon of gas, and they had to obtain the oil (maybe they drilled it, maybe they bought it) , refine it, market it, ship it, etc, etc. i'm happy to let them keep a dime of profit. now the gov't takes many multiples of that dime, and for what? has the dept. of energy ever produced a gallon of gas, pumped a barrel of oil? now radical arab states love high oil prices because they can spend the money on weapons. other arab and south american states love high prices because they can fund their massive welfare states. greenies love it because they can feel self-righteous that they're saving the planet by riding a bike or driving a prius or some nonsense.
things didn't improve one iota under fdr. even his treasury secretary, rosenthal (?) said as much. here's a fun fact. in the beginning of the '20s there was a big recession. what did coolidge do? nothing. what happened? it corrected itself, the economy boomed and ushered in what we call the roaring '20s. we had a recession in 1929, but now big-gov't gop hoover was in office. unemployment quickly went up, reaching just over 9% by december, but never over 10. unemployment began to decline slowly but steadily starting in january. it was somewhere around 7 or 8 percent by june, when hoover rode to the rescue with his spending bills. guess what? unemployment started rising again and was over 10% by december. when starts taking money out of the private sector and hiring people, what else do you expect? from that point on, unemployment never went below 14% and most years it was over 20. it didn't decline to pre-1929 levels until 1942. so much for fdr's (and hoover's) big ideas. 13 years of depression? is that what passes for success?
oddly, the great depression was only "great" in the usa. no other country's gov't so massively intruded into the private sector during that time. coincidentally, no other country had such massive economic problems.
actually, rand predicted the results of crony capitalism.
there is plenty of arable land, and plenty of food. famines and starvation these days are 100% the result of some government manipulation or war.
look at the media. nobody reads them any more and they are dying. but look at the internet, the free market of media. it seems to be doing quite well. de-reg had nothing to do with it. but de-reg has resulted in your ability to cheaply use your phone lines to access high speed internet, the ability to fly around the world cheaply, just to name two obvious ones. government monopolies are the only ones that last and they stifle competition. consumers are far less well-off when dealing with a non-responsive gov't monopoly than a private sector monopoly (if you can find one).unemployment during the great depression peaked in 33 (showing fdr's programs had kicked in) and then spiked again in 37 when the repubs voted to cut off stimulus. look at your charts over the entire time period, not the first year after the crash. takes programs awhile to have an effect. of course the war time economy got everyone working again. and there you have it, a huge gov spend pulling the us out. would not have mattered if there was a war or not. could have dropped the tanks in the ocean. what mattered was everyone started to have money in their pockets and spend. and that is really all that matters now. the european economies that spent the most since '08 are in by far the best shape. those that went with "austerity" are not doing so well.
sadly the us education system has been dumbed down to the point of no return. educators are required to teach to the least common denominator. has to do far more with lobbying groups than it does with unions. back in another life i was a teacher and teacher trainer in the us. worked in a few districts across the country. by far the highest paid district i taught in buffalo, ny had the most competent and engaging teachers. in '88 a masters and 10 years experience got you well over 50k. contrast that with ft worth, tx where it got you about 35k. level of instruction reflected that as well. i am all for instituting standards for teachers, high standards, including peer reviews, etc, and then pay them like professionals and expect as such. sadly increasing standards for students seems to be a no go with most states.
oil in the us, that's real easy. use the norwegian model. profits go to benefit the entire nation.
de-reg in the airlines led to cheaper tickets for a time, but it has also led to abysmal service.
That is such 19th century thinking. The easiest way for an "exploited" laborer to become less exploited is to make himself more valuable to the free market, not [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) and moan about low wages. In this country anybody can get an education if they really want it. If you're an adult there are buttloads of free night school, reasonably priced community colleges offering all sorts of vocational classes, and so on.
I don't know about you, but I certainly didn't start at the top. I got a semblance of an education, got a job and worked my ass off. As I gained more experience and became more valuable I found higher paying jobs. I took continuing education classes, home study courses, whatever. I certainly didn't sit around pissing and moaning about being oppressed by the man, and how it was my right to be able to buy a house, two cars, support a wife and kids and take an annual vacation on a McDonald's salary.
Yes, folks here are working more for less. Actually, fewer people are working than every before, and most have given up in the last 5 years. Think about it.All well and good when there is low unemployment. Theory goes out the window during a recession. Again the key is close to full employment. The private sector can't be counted on to pull their weight in a recession. Gov has to.
Thailand continued to have low unemployment during the recession. Why? Thai severance laws. Costs a hell of a lot to fire an employee here. Instead of laying people off the entire company will agree to take a pay cut for a time. Far better solution, keeps people employed, keeps the economy rolling. In Germany the gov paid private because not to lay folks off. Another win win. In the US, people get pink slips. Not good for anyone but the corps. Corps profits continue to rise and there is no hiring.
The economy is demand driven. Always has been. The Thai example shows us that.
ConquerorVal
03-14-14, 15:37
The capitalist goal is to put as much money in their pockets and the pockets of their shareholders no matter what the cost. Destroying or acquiring their competition, exploit labor, make that money by any means necessary. With the abuses continuing even in places like the US where people are working more and more for less, it is time for a new worldwide labor movement. Many nations seem to have it figured out though. Germany for one. Workers are paid a great salary and owners still make a little. Profit is the end result of a well run business after all else is taken care of.You are absolutely correct. In Canada, the politicians are always ready to blame the public servants and unions for all that is wrong with the economy, while handing out millions of dollars to the private sector in subsidies and grants. In other words corporate welfare is fine, but god forbid you will give a hand or a break to the middle class. Its all about giving the corporations tax breaks, (most of whom are sitting on their cash reserves and not re-investing into the economy) or give some symbolic hand outs to the working poor. Its on the backs of the middle class with the ever diminishing purchasing power that everything is funded. Income disparity is growing at a greater rate in Canada than the US. Politicians rarely mention the middle class. Without a healthy middle class you cannot have a healthy economy or democracy. I am not as optimistic as you Goat about finding a new worldwide labour movement. I can foresee violence and oppression in the future. I do not have much faith in the private sector that is controlled by people with lack of social responsibility, empathy, disdain for the common man and a tendency for sociopathy.
I still cannot get over Obama being called a socialist. Really? Only an American would say this. The frontier like mentality is still alive and well in the US of A. I love ISG-politics and pussy all in one place. What more does a man need.
You are absolutely correct. In Canada, the politicians are always ready to blame the public servants and unions for all that is wrong with the economy, while handing out millions of dollars to the private sector in subsidies and grants. In other words corporate welfare is fine, but god forbid you will give a hand or a break to the middle class. Its all about giving the corporations tax breaks, (most of whom are sitting on their cash reserves and not re-investing into the economy) or give some symbolic hand outs to the working poor. Its on the backs of the middle class with the ever diminishing purchasing power that everything is funded. Income disparity is growing at a greater rate in Canada than the US. Politicians rarely mention the middle class. Without a healthy middle class you cannot have a healthy economy or democracy. I am not as optimistic as you Goat about finding a new worldwide labour movement. I can foresee violence and oppression in the future. I do not have much faith in the private sector that is controlled by people with lack of social responsibility, empathy, disdain for the common man and a tendency for sociopathy.
I still cannot get over Obama being called a socialist. Really? Only an American would say this. The frontier like mentality is still alive and well in the US of A. I love ISG-politics and pussy all in one place. What more does a man need.Val, I am not optimistic. In fact, I think we are headed for some really nasty dark times. Fundy Islam on the rise and Christianity still a factor in the US combined with powerful multi-nats and oligarchs, we are headed for a Phillip K Dick future. Minority Report, Blade Runner, sadly this is the future.
I don't know about you, but I certainly didn't start at the top. I got a semblance of an education, got a job and worked my ass off. As I gained more experience and became more valuable I found higher paying jobs. I took continuing education classes, home study courses, whatever. I certainly didn't sit around pissing and moaning about being oppressed by the man, and how it was my right to be able to buy a house, two cars, support a wife and kids and take an annual vacation on a McDonald's salary.And that is very 20th century.
Even Gates sees the problem.
http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-bots-are-taking-away-jobs-2014-3
So what should happen and what will happen are two different things. We could be headed for a future where most don't want for anything, but sadly we are headed for a future where the top have it all and the rest very little. There is still time to change, but I don't think we will see meaningful change as long as folks cling to religion (Islam and Christianity are by far the worst) , a dated idea of the the work ethic, and allow corps and the super rich to do as they please.
I really wish that was the case. The capitalist goal is to put as much money in their pockets and the pockets of their shareholders no matter what the cost. Destroying or acquiring their competition, exploit labor, make that money by any means necessary.
Concepts like profit, loss, shareholders, and even money are mainly subterfuge - part of a big lie designed to confuse the issue. Capitalists, like all elites in all societies of whatever type, have only one goal and purpose: to control other people. It is only through control of other people (power) that one has 'profit', wealth, etc. In modern capitalism power is expressed in a deceptively impersonal form - money. This is the primary propaganda innovation over feudalism: as long as those controlled can switch from one owner to another they can be made to believe that they have some individual volition. (Of course there are very real efficiency benefits as well - great facilitation of slave-trading and disposal of spent slaves - but here I focus on the perceptions and terms)
Concepts like profit, loss, shareholders, and even money are mainly subterfuge - part of a big lie designed to confuse the issue. Capitalists, like all elites in all societies of whatever type, have only one goal and purpose: to control other people. It is only through control of other people (power) that one has 'profit', wealth, etc. In modern capitalism power is expressed in a deceptively impersonal form - money. This is the primary propaganda innovation over feudalism: as long as those controlled can switch from one owner to another they can be made to believe that they have some individual volition. (Of course there are very real efficiency benefits as well - great facilitation of slave-trading and disposal of spent slaves - but here I focus on the perceptions and terms)So well stated. The US is the perfect example. Was and is a plantation nation.
Paul Kausch
03-15-14, 23:34
Capitalists, like all elites in all societies of whatever type, have only one goal and purpose: to control other people. It is only through control of other people (power) that one has 'profit', wealth, etc.Just like all African-Americans are _______.
All Latin Americans are _______.
All Jews are ______.
I'll let you fill in the blanks. Frankly, other than human beings, I have no idea what words to use.
How do you define a capitalist? Seems to me the family from India that owned and operated the 1960s era hotel I stayed in when I recently visited one of my daughters are capitalist. I was definitely a capitalist after I resigned my tenure at the university. My first goal was to make enough money to live. My second goal was to do something I loved. My third goal was to make more than enough money to live. Now I'm mostly retired; spend about 10% of time consulting on an interesting project; and spend a lot more than 10% of my time helping, with no compensation because I don't need it because I was a modestly successful capitalist, a philanthropic organization that is doing something very good for a group of powerless people who are trapped in misery.
Do some people use crooked means to be successful? Of course. Will the smart crook who doesn't get caught surpass your average honest bloke? Of course. But, I've had friends whose personal net worth had enough zeros to quality them as elite capitalists. They had absolutely no desire to control people. In fact, in part they were successful capitalists because they had no desire to control other people; they empowered the people around them. That was a key to their success. Sure some elites use their wealth for nefarious reasons. I'd put the Koch brothers in that category. Some industries are dominated by greedy people with bad intentions, banking for example. However, some of the elite capitalists I've know personally use their wealth to support scholarship programs for students from low income families. Others retired young and spend their time mentoring ambitious young men and women.
It is wrong to pick an attribute and throw everyone with that attribute into the same basket.
[Deleted by Admin]
EDITOR's NOTE: This report was edited or deleted because the writing was so bad that the report was nearly impossible to comprehend.
Western787
03-18-14, 22:42
Emergency decree to be lifted tomorow, which is good news.
The protests and related violence nearly killed the golden goose, and both sides apparently got a wakeup call, because this economy was headed into a depression http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/news/400527/chamber-warns-of-2-contraction
Paul Kausch
03-19-14, 23:34
Just read some sadly amusing news. The Pheu Thai leadership now publicly acknowledges that their situation grows worse by the day as they are being backed into a corner by unified attacks on multiple fronts planned and executed by the "ammart" system, the aristocratic and bureaucratic elite. They also said they believe Yingluck and her brother-in-law, Somchai, will be driven from power and prevented from ever again holding political office. While they were at it they also could have announced that the sky is blue and the grass is green.
I find this sad because it is clear the courts, military and other power centers are allowing political allegiances and not democratic principles drive their behavior. This happens everywhere including the country I live, but it still makes me sad when I see it happening.
It amuses me that it has taken this long for Pheu Thai to openly admit this. In January knowledgeable people were describing the events that were coming to be death by a thousand cuts for the Shinawatras and Pheu Thai. I've read and been told by people in Thailand whose opinions I respect that Thaksin is arrogant, unreasonable and driven by a lust for greed and power. Not a good way to play a weaker hand.
Paul Kausch
03-21-14, 07:49
Don't you love it. The opposition mucks up 15% of the election and the court throws out the other 85%. And the NACC has decided to indict Nikhom Wairatpanich, which means he is no longer speaker of the senate and now must defend himself against impeachment charges. The noose is getting tighter and tighter.
This has been a very sad spectacle, but it has been fascinating watching the opposition's maneuvers. It has firm control of the center of the board and Thaksin has lost most of his pieces. Anyone want to guess how many more moves remain until checkmate?
"This has been a very sad spectacle, but it has been fascinating watching the opposition's maneuvers. It has firm control of the center of the board and Thaksin has lost most of his pieces. Anyone want to guess how many more moves remain until checkmate?"
Even the times when Thaksin's party was couped it wasn't even close to checkmate for him or his political power in Siam. Ever seen the Terminator movie series & the line "I'll be back"?
Should Yingluck be banned forever from politics that would be less than TS losing a pawn in the game. A pawn is the least valuable piece of all in chess. And it may cost the opposition quite a bit to even accomplish that. Remove her & there are plenty of able, if not superior, replacement puppets to do TS bidding.
Likewise for annuling the election. Did that suprise anyone. Time for election, take two?
Paul Kausch
03-21-14, 18:27
I've been thinking about this action by the court. It creates an interesting precedent. Effectively the court is saying, there cannot be an election until the opposition wants another election. If Pheu Thai tries to organize another election all the opposition has to do is refuse to participate, block voting in a few districts in the south and the new election is invalid. Suthep has already announced he will boycott the next election if one is held. This would seem to imply any party could use this technique to block the other party from holding an election; however, I'd bet if the situation with the Democratic Party and Pheu Thai were reversed the courts, bureaucracy and military would be acting differently. I suspect the acknowledgment by the Pheu Thai leadership that Yinglucj and Sonchai are finished is the beginning of the next scene of the play. The other Pheu Thai politicians may realize the best way to ensure their political future is to jettison Thaksin. Yesterday it was announced Wairatpanich was removed from his post as speaker of the senate and now must fight to save his political career. Anyone who works with Thaksin will eventually suffer the same fate.
Wolvenvacht
03-21-14, 19:59
I've been thinking about this action by the court. It creates an interesting precedent. Effectively the court is saying, there cannot be an election until the opposition wants another election. If Pheu Thai tries to organize another election all the opposition has to do is refuse to participate, block voting in a few districts in the south and the new election is invalid. Suthep has already announced he will boycott the next election if one is held. This would seem to imply any party could use this technique to block the other party from holding an election; however, I'd bet if the situation with the Democratic Party and Pheu Thai were reversed the courts, bureaucracy and military would be acting differently. I suspect the acknowledgment by the Pheu Thai leadership that Yinglucj and Sonchai are finished is the beginning of the next scene of the play. The other Pheu Thai politicians may realize the best way to ensure their political future is to jettison Thaksin. Yesterday it was announced Wairatpanich was removed from his post as speaker of the senate and now must fight to save his political career. Anyone who works with Thaksin will eventually suffer the same fate.The way I understood it, the election was voided because not enough members of parliament were elected.
The court was ruling on a complaint lodged by Kittipong Kamolthammawong, a law lecturer at Thammasat University, via the Office of the Ombudsman. It decided the poll violated Section 108 of the charter because it was not completed in one day.
The court based its ruling on Paragraph 2 of the section, which stipulates a general election must be held on a single day nationwide.
Voting could not take place on Feb 2 in 28 constituencies in eight southern provinces because no candidates were registered due to disruptions by anti-government protesters.
The court also said any plans to hold elections in the 28 constituencies after the Feb 2 date were prohibited. If such polls had been held, it would have violated the one-day stipulation, it said
(Bangkok Post 2014/03/21).So it is not a matter of one side refusing to participate or to "block vote": that tactic will still lead to a candidate being elected. The "Democrats" can simply try the same tactic they used last time: block the places where the candidates have to register and block the actual polling stations so some districts will not elect a representative. If they can do that in enough districts, they get another "void" election.
Paul Kausch
03-21-14, 20:33
The way I understood it, the election was voided because not enough members of parliament were elected. So it is not a matter of one side refusing to participate or to "block vote": that tactic will still lead to a candidate being elected. The "Democrats" can simply try the same tactic they used last time: block the places where the candidates have to register and block the actual polling stations so some districts will not elect a representative. If they can do that in enough districts, they get another "void" election.Ninety-five percent of the parliament is necessary for it to convene and form a government. Only 85% of the districts elected an MP. Which is why Yingluck is still running a caretaker government with limited powers. Pheu Thai was trying to organize polls to complete the election. The opposition's response was to challenge the entire election on the grounds that the constitution requires an election to be valid must be completed in one day. The court has agreed with the opposition and thrown out the entire election. This is the action that prompted me to write my preceding post.
It seems to me the last government the Bangkok elite controlled fashioned a constitution they can use to thwart anyone they oppose. They also stacked the courts with people loyal to them. Any person or party that attempts to undue, reverse or circumvent any of this can be blocked, removed from office and barred from politics. The elite can keep Thaksin in constant checkmate. In desperation some red shirts are talking about forming a militia that will respond to Yingluck's removal. It would be very stupid for Thaksin to make this move. It would be like putting a bullet through his own brain. If Pheu Thai stages an insurrection, the military will bring in the southern divisions and destroy it. Recall the Tienanmen Square rebellion was immediately crushed as soon as China was able to move the western divisions into Beijing. As soon as an insurrection begins the party and its leaders will be branded traitors, and you know what governments can do to traitors. In the end many Pheu Thai leaders, possibly even Thaksin would have death sentence hanging over them. The opposition has said from the beginning its goals is to drive the Shinawatras not just out of politics but out of Thailand and destroy Pheu Thai. Like I've written in other posts it has been sad, humorous and very interesting to watch this play out. Shortly after this all started I wrote the opposition holds all the cards and their eventual victory seems most likely. With each passing day I'd say the probability gets a little closer to 100%.
Paul,
This will only be a Pyrrhic victory for the Suthep mob because the majority who voted Pheu Thai will replicate the disruption & anarchy that the Suthep mob & their backers created. It is a convenient myth that the Red Shirts are at the personal whim & disposal of Thaksin. The whole movement began with his impetus but large parts of it are independent of him & his 'orders'. A majority of the population in the North & North East are simply not going to accept an imposed dictator and will make their areas ungovernable for the central authority. Whilst I have no doubt they can use the southern & eastern troops to massacre protesters again in Bangkok I can't see them sending southern troops en masse to Chiang Mai or Udon. A likely key issue is going to be whether troops stationed & recruited in the North & North East are going to move against their own people? At some stage we may find the answer to that but Prayuth's hesitation at all stages in this coup-by-other-means suggests to me he is not sure of the answer either and has sought not to test it.
This political chaos is also taking place against background of the forthcoming key military reshuffle. Which will again be dominated by a small clique from the Queens Guard to the detriment & angst of those who continue to lose out. Similarly the maneuvering for the royal succession continues and when the 'big event' occurs will be another source of discord not unity. Everything I see & hear tells me the next round of political infighting is going to be way worse than 2010 & I frankly cannot see a happy ending or indeed possibly no 'ending' but never-ending political strife & even guerrilla warfare in some regions. This is a completely divided country & that divide is replicated in every institution from the highest to the lowest.
Paul Kausch
03-22-14, 17:04
Paul,
This will only be a Pyrrhic victory for the Suthep mob.
This is a completely divided country & that divide is replicated in every institution from the highest to the lowest.
Georgek,
I appreciate your thoughtful post.
As I wrote in my earlier posts: 1. It seems Thaksin is losing his grip on Pheu Thai. The party leadership appears to be getting ready to jettison the Shinawatras. 2. Just as the Chinese military used divisions from the western provinces to crush the Tienanmen Square protests, the Thai military will use divisions from the south if they have to fight the red shirts.
If the situation starts to escalate and the military announces they will hold exercises that involve moving southern divisions into proximity with the trouble, that could signal the situation is ready to explode. Notice since the protests began the military has given forewarning and explanations of any exercises it has carried out.
I understand the change of command has been decided and Prayuth has met with people with a need to know. It should not be surprising that Prayuth does not want to use military force. His term is almost up and the military prefers to take action when the outcome is certain and decisive. Prayuth repeatedly said he does not want the military to end up running the country, even for a brief period. In more and more countries the generals don't want to seen as running the government. They're happy to let the civilians be the face of the government.
I think you're right. If the red shirts mobilize and stage disruptive protests in Bangkok, given there numbers they could truly shut down the city. If that happens there may very well be more blood shed than in 2010. Seems you're also right about the divisions at multiple levels. For the Bangkok elite this seems to be an existential fight. On the other hand the people in the north and northeast have had a glimpse of a better future. They are not going to give up their aspirations without a fight.
How can there be a resolution given the current constitution and judiciary? And the current bureaucracy for that matter? All of these are skewed in favor of the Bangkok elite, while a majority of Thais want a restructuring and redistribution of power and wealth. It seems to me the only thing that could work is some kind of federation of regions. I just don't see anyone on either side settling for that. Everyone who knows anything about Thailand is well aware of the frequent changes in government. Seems like we're in store for a few more.
Like I've said in other posts some of this is tragically comic and all of it is very interesting.
Western787
03-27-14, 10:20
Fairly impressive. Perhaps a moon landing could be next?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/thai-satellite-spots-300-objects-in-indian-ocean/2014/03/27/c63a0cfc-b58d-11e3-bab2-b9602293021d_story.html
apparently like a number of mid sized countries it was launched by the Russian Federation using converted (ex nuclear tipped Ukranian) ICBM's, in Thailand's case in 2008.
http://www.iafastro.com/index.php/organisations/geo-informatics-and-space-technology-development-agency-gistda
Paul Kausch
04-02-14, 15:00
The opposition seems to always have another card up it's sleeve. Everyone, including me, was focused on the NACC's investigation and potential (almost certain) indictment of Yingluck. Then out of the blue, well sort of, this happens. The Constitutional Court is acting on the petition filed by 28 senators and has given Yingluck 15 days to defend her decision in 2011 to remove Thawil Pliensri from the position of National Security Council (NSC) secretary-general. I understand this is a big deal because the Constitutional Court has the authority to remove her and her entire cabinet from the offices they hold. I'm not rooting for the opposition, nor do I feel sorry for Yingluck; it's interesting to watch all the maneuvering.
Paul Kausch
04-02-14, 19:12
The actions by the Constitutional Court are no small deal. Here is what Caretaker Education Minister Chaturon Chaisaeng has to say about the impact of a negative ruling by the Constitutional Court,"The Thawil case will be a knock-out punch."
He went on the say if this happens there will be trouble, as in the red shirts will step up the violence. I still think if that happens it will hand the opposition everything it is after on a silver platter.
The court's ruling is expected in two weeks.
Bangkok Post:
http://bangkokpost.com/news/local/408200/no-need-for-special-means-to-get-a-new-leader-just-follow-the-constitution-say-academics-rejecting-an-unelected-leader-as-inconceivable
Giotto
Western787
05-06-14, 18:03
IMHO 70% chance another high season will be wiped out. The Red Shirts know with selected acts of violence timed into the fall and early winter period, they can pretty much take down much of the Bangkok economy. Doesn't seem to be any end to this thing until the tanks roll in the streets
Paul Kausch
05-06-14, 18:22
Constitutional Court announced it will make it's decision about Yingluck's future tomorrow; and the red shirts are ready.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/most-recent/408399/red-shirts-getting-ready
Traveler1234
05-07-14, 03:55
We'll at lunch time will hear the decision, kinda of happy I'm flying out tomorrow. But don't expect any surprises.
Member #4698
05-07-14, 12:42
"Thai Court Removes Yingluck Shinawatra From Office. The court said Ms. Yingluck violated the Thailand's constitution by improperly demoting the country's then-chief of national security, Tawin Pleansri, in 2011.
Following the court decision, the Thai cabinet appointed Niwattumrong Boonsongpaisan as the new caretaker prime minister.
The pro government Red Shirt movement is gearing up to mobilize supporters to protest the court's verdict, with the group's leader, Jatuporn Prompan, calling a major rally on Saturday. Other Red Shirt leaders instructed their followers in the north and northeast, strong holds of Ms. Yingluck's Pheu Thai Party, to pack food and clothing to get ready for a rally in the capital in the coming days."
"Fasten your seatbelts. It is going to be a bumpy ride!". Betty Davis 1950.
Ralph Kramden
05-07-14, 13:02
IMHO 70% chance another high season will be wiped out. The Red Shirts know with selected acts of violence timed into the fall and early winter period, they can pretty much take down much of the Bangkok economy. Doesn't seem to be any end to this thing until the tanks roll in the streetsOn the positive side there might well be some hot, oily, underused pussies begging for cock when Ralph Kramden rolls into town on Christmas Day.
I'm in Koi Samui, supposed to leave out of BKK May 18, was coming back to BKK for a few days, I never seen one of these things and don't really care to, am I at risk of this happening in Samui this week also? Should I skip BKK all together? What should I expect in the next few days? Please any and all info, thanks, was going to Phuket for a few days also, is it happening their also? Please someone expericed with this stuff, help us newbies out!
Wolvenvacht
05-07-14, 20:26
I'm in Koi Samui, supposed to leave out of BKK May 18, was coming back to BKK for a few days, I never seen one of these things and don't really care to, am I at risk of this happening in Samui this week also? Should I skip BKK all together? What should I expect in the next few days? Please any and all info, thanks, was going to Phuket for a few days also, is it happening their also? Please someone expericed with this stuff, help us newbies out!What do you mean by "these things"? Protest marches, occupying crossroads, blockading government offices or the airport, attacking opponents, police charging protesters, tanks in the streets? Unless someone has a working crystal ball, nobody will know. My (entirely unsubstantiated and uninformed) guess is that it will take at least a few days for the redshirt movement to organise something well coordinated on a major scale. Such actions are likely to happen mainly in Bangkok. I think Phuket will be relatively safe and Koh Samui being a non-entity on the political scene should be no problem at all..
What do you mean by "these things"? Protest marches, occupying crossroads, blockading government offices or the airport, attacking opponents, police charging protesters, tanks in the streets? Unless someone has a working crystal ball, nobody will know. My (entirely unsubstantiated and uninformed) guess is that it will take at least a few days for the redshirt movement to organise something well coordinated on a major scale. Such actions are likely to happen mainly in Bangkok. I think Phuket will be relatively safe and Koh Samui being a non-entity on the political scene should be no problem at all.True, although the problems in BKK are next to nil, & it's easy enough to simply avoid all of the above. [I'd be more concerned about issues unique to Phuket. ] OTOH it's a wonderful time to come to the capital now. The hobbying has never been so good going back to at least 2007. So there is no need to freak.
As for Thai politics, it's more of the "same same, but different". So boring & predictable. I said months ago YL would be couped. Now the courts have done the dirty job. Another TS puppet immediately took her place, which I also foretold.
Swung by Mango today and there was the makings of a 'protest' going on, vehicles with bullhorns and people chanting. It went on for a good half hour, I could hear it inside Mango. Wasn't very large, maybe 6 or 7 vehicles and 40 people or so but figure it will only build.
Interesting analysis here.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/05/future-thailands-elite
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/opinion/the-travails-of-thailand.html
Western787
05-12-14, 06:08
What do you mean by "these things"? Protest marches, occupying crossroads, blockading government offices or the airport, attacking opponents, police charging protesters, tanks in the streets? Unless someone has a working crystal ball, nobody will know. My (entirely unsubstantiated and uninformed) guess is that it will take at least a few days for the redshirt movement to organise something well coordinated on a major scale. Such actions are likely to happen mainly in Bangkok. I think Phuket will be relatively safe and Koh Samui being a non-entity on the political scene should be no problem at all.I am thinking the Red Shirts are going to (at least try) to reserve most of the violence until Sept and Oct, thus virtually guaranteeing a 2nd consecutive high season wiped out. Now there are offsetting factors that could cause the violence to start now and just continue unabated but that risks bringing the tanks in now (and thus a coup) and thus perhaps saving the Dec to Feb high season.
Interesting analysis here.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/05/future-thailands-eliteYes, have read this before, focusing on the role of the CP as being pro-Taksin regime. However, I never could make any sense of that one: the man who is supposed to inherit all the vast power and wealth is going to instead side with a bunch of jumped-up near-Republicans for a few millions in gambling debts paid and the gift of a petty Maybach? It would only make sense if he believed absolutely that the other side was already fully committed to replacing him in the succession, something which seems far from certain (and in any case would presumably have only been precipitated by his pointless flirting with that aforementioned Republican crowd).
Paul Kausch
05-13-14, 01:33
The plot thickens.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/409466/suthep-pdrc-burst-into-parliament
If you want to really understand the present turmoil, read the article in the link below :"
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/05/future-thailands-elite
Don't touch traffic cones.
Or the friendly unarmed peaceful (sic) PDRC protestors will pull out their guns and smash you around....fully supported by the courts, Elites, Democrat Party, Non-Elected Senators etc...
http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/holy-traffic-cones-become-symbol-of-thai-crisis/2014/05/14/2b2bf5ee-db54-11e3-a837-8835df6c12c4_story.html
Paul Kausch
05-15-14, 04:36
The red shorts are getting more and more desperate. Stupid move. Plays into the opposition's hand. Neither side is in the right, but it is increasingly clear who is smarter, and who will eventually win.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/409853/two-dead-in-attacks-on-pdrc
Member #4591
05-15-14, 12:26
Hey guys,
Just a thought. Who really cares about this? All I care about is if it will effect my mongering in Thailand. I have been here for 6 months celebrating my divorce and all is good. During the shutdown Bangkok had some of the best mongering and still does. Other than one protest site quite close to soi Cowboy all mongering destinations were all clear. Even Soi Cowboy was not effected. So all clear brothers!
Paul Kausch
05-15-14, 20:49
The red shorts are getting more and more desperate. Stupid move. Plays into the opposition's hand. Neither side is in the right, but it is increasingly clear who is smarter, and who will eventually win.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/409853/two-dead-in-attacks-on-pdrchttp://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/409921/army-chief-condemns-violence-warns-of-military-intervention
Prayuth has never said there won't be a military coup. And it is notable that just a few days ago the US Dept of Defense made a big deal in the US media about its pleas to the Thai army not to stage a coup. Of course the US DOD knows about things before the rest of us hear anything.
Paul Kausch
05-15-14, 20:51
Hey guys,
Just a thought. Who really cares about this? All I care about is if it will effect my mongering in Thailand. I have been here for 6 months celebrating my divorce and all is good. During the shutdown Bangkok had some of the best mongering and still does. Other than one protest site quite close to soi Cowboy all mongering destinations were all clear. Even Soi Cowboy was not effected. So all clear brothers!I'm still coming in June. I was there in December. There was a big March down Sukhumvit one day. Closed the street. Had no impact on me. Some of the seasoned veterans may wish to comment, but I've heard mongering was little effected by the events in 2010.
Traveler1234
05-15-14, 23:09
I was there twice in 2010, and this year in both Feb and again late April. Each time for 2+ wks on business. In Feb, stayed on Wireless because Ratchadamri was often blocked, in late April went back to my regular Grande Centrepoint at Ratchadamri. For seasoned travelers, politics should have zero impact on tourism. As far as P4 P, absolutely no impact.
It's now low season and nothing has changed. Sukhumvit area remains bullet proof, even back in Feb when there were tents near Ashoke BTS area. I'll probably have to return in early / mid July for a week or so on business again. Unfortunately the Mrs. Will probably join me!
I was there twice in 2010, and this year in both Feb and again late April. Each time for 2+ wks on business. In Feb, stayed on Wireless because Ratchadamri was often blocked, in late April went back to my regular Grande Centrepoint at Ratchadamri. For seasoned travelers, politics should have zero impact on tourism. As far as P4 P, absolutely no impact.Well, regarding politics having zero impact on tourism, that depends. Yes, I was in Bangkok this past February and the political protests only represented a very minor inconvenience, if that, in terms of being able to get around. But I was also in Bangkok when Suvarnabhumi airport was shut down in November 2008 (conveniently timed for the USA Thanksgiving holiday), and I couldn't leave for around 10 days thereby missing other commitments; fortunately I was not one of those mongers making a trip on the sly, who then had to explain to the wife or boss why the short scuba diving trip with my buddies to Belize (or whatever) had become of indefinite duration. Although perhaps only quasi-political, I was also in Sao Paulo during some of the police vs. criminal riots (where something like over 100 people were murdered), and on at least one night the hotel manager sent a letter to all guests urging us not to leave the hotel, which was prudent advice.
I will be in Bangkok again next month, and hope during that upcoming trip politics does indeed have no impact on my stay. But I can't say I'm not at least a little bit worried about what could happen by then.
Paul Kausch
05-16-14, 01:21
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/410000/army-chief-threatens-full-force
Note the last 7 paragraphs. Senator Jate Siratharanont announced that the upper chamber has decided to appoint an interim PM.
In other articles I've run across the red shirt leaders say they are alarmed at how quickly things are moving and are hurriedly gathering their masses.
An appointed government; angry red shirt protesters gathered in mass; an army general who is prepared to use whatever means necessary to suppress violence; are those dark clouds forming on the horizon? As I step off the plane at BKK will I be stepping into something that could have been the plot in a Graham Greene novel?
Another decent write up:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/05/15/editorials/short-circuiting-thai-democracy/
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