Thailand Politics

[Admin]

Thread Starter.

[Old Thai Hand]

This could just be another ugly rumour. But, trust me. The source is very highly connected. I just got an sms, that there might be a coup d'etat tonight in Bangkok. More if I hear it.

[Giotto]

This could just be another ugly rumour. But, trust me. The source is very highly connected. I just got an sms, that there might be a coup d'etat tonight in Bangkok. More if I hear it.

Seams to be true.

Tanks were seen on the roads in Bangkok. Thaksin declares state of emergency. But he is not in the country.


Giotto

[Old Thai Hand]

Seams to be true.

Tanks were seen on the roads in Bangkok. Thaksin declares state of emergency. But he is not in the country.


Giotto

All Thai TV has stopped broadcasting regular shows and is now showing old video of the king and playing patriotic songs. Military channels are showing video of past military coups.

[JuiceSpike]

Games up?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5361008.stm

I'm going out before is too late...

I saw this coming but why did it happen when I'm here. Damn PM.

Morelikely everything is closing tonight early. Be safe.

juices

[PosterLion]

Me and my girlfriend are watching the procedings on CNN channel 42 via UBC. Thaksin is in New York and the Thai Armed Forces say they are in control of the capital.

poster . . .

[Old Thai Hand]

I was warned 30 minutes before the tanks rolled that the coup was about to start and I should not go out. I was just told that the army is completely in control of all key govenment buildings and that Taksin's attempt to transfer military power directly to his office has failed. The national police who were behind Taksin are now with the army (probably don't have much choice).

Taksin is screwed.

[PosterLion]

Thailand's Military Launches
Late-Night Coup Against Thaksin

A WALL STREET JOURNAL ONLINE NEWS ROUNDUP
September 19, 2006 12:25 p.m.

The Thai military launched a coup against Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on Tuesday night, circling his offices with tanks, seizing control of TV stations and declaring a provisional authority pledging loyalty to the king.

An announcement on Thai television declared that a "Council of Administrative Reform'' with King Bhumibol Adulyadej as head of state had seized power in Bangkok and nearby provinces without any resistance.

At least 14 tanks surrounded Government House, Mr. Thaksin's office. Mr. Thaksin was in New York at the U.N. General Assembly and declared a state of emergency.

Mr. Thaksin said he was ordering the transfer of the nation's army chief to work in the prime minister's office, effectively suspending him from his military duties.

In an interview with the Wall Street Journal Monday, Mr. Thaksin dismissed any possibility of a military takeover in his country, adding that a recent assassination attempt-- while possibly linked to members of the Thai military - - was "not a coup."

"I know there are those who really support me and those who are against me," he said. But he suggested that any opposition from the military was confined to rogue elements in its ranks or older generals that don't represent the wishes of the broader Thai armed forces.

He also dismissed the possibility that Thailand's revered king or his advisers are playing any meaningful role in the country's political drama.

"His Majesty is not really involved in politics. We should not bring him into politics," he said. Some analysts believe that Thailand's king has given his tacit endorsement to military coups in Thailand in past decades.

Mr. Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai Party has twice won landslide election victories, in 2001 and 2005 and was expected to win the next vote, bolstered by their widespread support in the country's rural areas. But the prime minister has faced calls to step down amid allegations of corruption and abuse of power.

Massive rallies earlier this year forced Mr. Thaksin to dissolve parliament and call for a snap election in April. The poll was boycotted by opposition parties and later annulled by Thailand's top courts, leaving the country without a working legislature. New elections are scheduled for Oct. 15 but were likely to be postponed until at least November.

More bombings and arson attacks occurred Monday in violence-wracked southern Thailand, where a Muslim insurgency has killed more than 1,700 people since 2004.

(Thai soldiers drove tanks and trucks Tuesday evening past Bangkok's Government House, where official guests of the government are formally entertained.)

[Opebo]

Am I the first to report this?

The military spokesman just came on TV and said they have control of Bangkok and surrounding areas.

I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but it looks like Taksin is OUT! :)

[Old Thai Hand]

Am I the first to report this?

The military spokesman just came on TV and said they have control of Bangkok and surrounding areas.

I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but it looks like Taksin is OUT! :)

No. I reported it in the Living In Thailand section, 30 minutes before it started and 2 hours before you.

[Evil Penivel]

·
¶ BANGKOK (AP)--A senior Thai military official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation, said that Army Commander-in-Chief Gen. Sondhi Boonyaratkalin had used the military to take over power from the prime minister.
¶ The Thai military launched a coup against Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on Tuesday, circling his offices with tanks, seizing control of television stations and declaring a provisional authority loyal to the king.
¶ An announcement on Thai television channel 5 declared that a "Council of Administrative Reform" with King Bhumibol Adulyadej as head of state had seized power in Bangkok and nearby provinces without any resistance.
¶ A convoy of four tanks rigged with loudspeakers and sirens rolled through a busy commercial district warning people to get off the street for their own safety.
¶ At least 14 tanks surrounded Government House, Thaksin's office. Thaksin was in New York at the U.N. General Assembly and declared a state of emergency.
¶ "The prime minister with the approval of the Cabinet declares serious emergency law in Bangkok from now on" Thaksin said on Channel 9 from New York. He said he was ordering the transfer of the nation's army chief to work in the prime minister's office, effectively suspending him from his military duties.
¶ Several hundred soldiers were deployed at keys points in the capital of Bangkok, including government installations and major intersections, witnesses said. A dozen soldiers patrolled around the Erawan Hotel, a major tourist facility, in the heart of the business district.
¶ Army-owned TV channel 5 interrupted regular broadcasts with patriotic music and showed pictures of the king. At least some radio and television stations monitored in Bangkok suspended programming.
¶ The cable television station of the Nation newspaper reported that tanks were parked at the Rachadamnoen Road and Royal Plaza close to the Royal Palace and government offices.
¶ Local radio station Ruam Duay Chuay Kan interrupted its programming just as a reporter was about to give information from Government House.
·-0-

[Giotto]

The bars in Soi 33 close early (11:30 pm). Tons of unsatisfied girls on the way back home.


Giotto

[Giotto]

I was informed (rumors) that CNN and BBC is now blocked in the moment on UBC.

We have it here via Satellite. If somebody wants to join the Coup Party in Livingstone's Sports Lounge ... I know, it's not really funny.



Giotto

[PosterLion]

Yes, all channels are blocked at my house due to a "Sun Outage", LMAO. :)

[PosterLion]

Translated to me by my GF:

The Coup has been completed at this time and Thaksin's government is no longer in control. The Army has gone back to barracks and the police have returned to the station.

Tomorrow the King will appoint an interim PM. Afterwards, the previously scheduled vote for a new PM will take place.

poster . . .

[Dr Devil]

BBC online news broadcasting about the coup in BKK live on internet, you can watch it at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/nb_rm_fs.stm?clippos=0&clipurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/live/nb/rm/video/now2_nb.ram&title=BBC%20TV%20coverage%20of%20Thailand%20crisis&wintype=normal&rhs=http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_5360000/newsid_5361000/nb_rm_5361084.stm&cs=news&fsname=nb_rm_fs&bw=nb

[Giotto]

Some of our staff returned to the Lodge after trying to get to their homes via the major highways. Those are blocked in the moment.

Rumors again, Thaksin supporters from the outside Bangkok shall be prevented from coming into the city right now.

Hmmm... I don't buy it. What we saw up to now was the easy part of the game, to move into Bangkok and enter into Thaksins Office and the Government House (while he stays in New York). Now the question is whether the military is united - if not those road blockades might be arranged to block government supporting army parts to join the party - but if they "insist" we will have serious problems here.

I did not follow my own rules today - the staff is sleeping in guest rooms tonight :) !


Giotto

[PosterLion]

Rules are made to be broken. Good Man!

[Giotto]

Posterlion,

LOL.

A bet: The stock market will open tomorrow around 15 points below todays levels. And it will close below its opening prices.

What do you think?


Giotto

[PosterLion]

I'd like to get back to the discussion of the new visa rules. Does anyone have the real "skinny" on these new rules?

My understanding is that a Visa on Arrival (VOA) allows a foreigner into the Kingdom for 30 days and that the new rule allows the foreigner to leave the Kingdom and return a maximum of two times for a total stay of 90 days. What I don't understand is the timeframe of the new rules.

I've heard that the new 90 rule applies for a period of six months and I've also heard one year. I'd like to know the real "skinny" concerning this issue for the sake of understanding. I am in no way affected by the new rules, but valid information is the basis of all good decisions. So . . .

Does anyone know the details of the "new rules?"

===

On a different note, these new rules should not affect the current workings of a normal tourist visa that you purchase before entering the Kingdom. A normal visa expires in 90 days and allows the foreigner to reside in the Kingdom for a maximum of 60 days.

This visa costs 1000 Baht per entry. If a foreigner buys a normal tourist visa (type TR) with two entries it will cost 2000 Baht and allow the foreigner to reside in Thailand for up to 120 days, providing the foreigner steps across the border after the first 60 days has expired.

It seems to me the new rules are not a huge problem. The reality is merely that the foreigner must visit a Thai embassy three times a year and pay 6,000 Baht in order to stay in the Kingdom.

poster . . .

[PosterLion]

Posterlion,

LOL.

A bet: The stock market will open tomorrow around 15 points below todays levels. And it will close below its opening prices.

What do you think?


Giotto

I think you are breaking the cross-talk rule now. :)

We'll see about your bet, but I figure you are probably close in your prediction. :)

[Giotto]

I think you are breaking the cross-talk rule now. :)

LOL. That's really my biggest problem in the moment :) .

Just received this mail:

"Dear Customers:

The prime minister has declared a stage of emergency in Bangkok and has sacked the army chief. it is expected that there will be a military coup d'etat tonight as there are many tanks in central Bangkok now.

I'm not sure whether the stock market will be opened tomorrow. Let's hope that the market will be closed and that the coup will be over by tomorrow.

Best regards,


xxxx"


Yep. Let's hope that the market will be CLOSED tomorrow. ROFLMAO!!!


Giotto

[Giotto]

Just walked down to Sukhumvit, it is 2:20 am . Nearly no traffic, it is very very quiet. No tanks, no soldiers, no police.

In the moment nothing to be worried about. I hope that everybody stays calm in this country, especially our friends from the Thai armed forces.

GOD, PLEASE LET IT RAIN BRAIN. PLEASE!

I will go sleep now.


Giotto

[GettingTang]

did you all realize the Thailand's army general and new declared "ruler" of the state is a hard core Muslim? I'm not trying to scare any farangs there, but my sources tell me all hell is about to break loose in Thailand. The acting, or recently ousted PM is preparing his small, but loyal army he still maintains conrtrol of, for military action as I type this.

If you have any way to get a seat out of Thailand right now, I would jump on it!

[Twizted]

Does anyone know if this is coup compromises flights into the country?

[Giotto]

did you all realize the Thailand's army general and new declared "ruler" of the state is a hard core Muslim?...
If you have any way to get a seat out of Thailand right now, I would jump on it!Guys,

Go sleep.

This is not about Muslims, Christians or religions in general. And whoever heads this coup is gone already, whether he wins or loses this specific battle, but due to the fact that nobody ever will trust his loyalty again - he will very soon be history!


Giotto

[Bigboi46]

BANGKOK, Thailand - Thailand's army commander ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra in a military coup Tuesday night while he was in New York, circling his offices with tanks, declaring martial law and revoking the constitution. A military spokesman said army Commander-in-Chief Gen. Sondhi Boonyaratkalin would be acting prime minister.

Sondhi, a Muslim in this Buddhist-dominated country, is known to be close to Thailand's revered monarch, King Bhumibol Adulyadej.

An announcement on national television signed by army Sondhi Boonyaratkalin ordered all troops to report to their duty stations.

A senior army general, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation, said the armed forces chiefs were meeting with the king to discuss forming an interim government, suggesting it would probably be led by civilians.

[Traveler1234]

did you all realize the Thailand's army general and new declared "ruler" of the state is a hard core Muslim? I'm not trying to scare any farangs there, but my sources tell me all hell is about to break loose in Thailand. The acting, or recently ousted PM is preparing his small, but loyal army he still maintains conrtrol of, for military action as I type this.

If you have any way to get a seat out of Thailand right now, I would jump on it!

That's how rumors are started - ill-informed statements that do nothing but stir things up. It's not like the Indonesian muslims killing chinese and communists back in the 60's. Settle down please.

[Phantomtiger2]

With the military coup--as some had already predicted may happen eventually. I wonder what the long and short term implications will be for the average monger visting LOS.
Although many have critizised the Prime Minister and his administration/govt as corrupt, at least mongering was pretty much left as is without any real changes (other than the early bar closings).

[Giotto]

Does anyone know if this is coup compromises flights into the country?As I know the airport is still open.


Giotto

[GettingTang]

That's how rumors are started - ill-informed statements that do nothing but stir things up. It's not like the Indonesian muslims killing chinese and communists back in the 60's. Settle down please.

The acting PM of a free country is ousted by the countries Muslim military leader and you respond by calling me a rumor monger? I think the real story is far more serious then any rumor here.

The only thing on the upside here, is that at the present time, most of the Thai people were in favor of the current PM being outed. Only this is not the way it is supposed to done and when coupe takes place all bets are off.

One thing you as mongers can probably count on, is that the liberal prostitution policies, of looking the other way in Thailand, are probably on their way out now. This is just my own personal guess, as the King and his army are quite conservative and despise Thailand being the sex capital of the world. This has been a status they have wished to end for some time, now the oportunity is there. Things will change for sure.........

[Brain666]

somebody wrote:
One thing you as mongers can probably count on, is that the liberal prostitution policies, of looking the other way in Thailand, are probably on their way out now. This is just my own personal guess, as the King and his army are quite conservative and despise Thailand being the sex capital of the world. This has been a status they have wished to end for some time, now the oportunity is there. Things will change for sure.........

As i read the news now, this is coup no. 20 since 1932. Nothing changed since then. So don't panic. We the mongers will have still enough opportunity to spend our mongering money in Thailand.
This would be really the last I would worry about.

regards

Brain666

[The Traveler]

For all those who worry, let's not forget that Thailand was under military rule until the 90's but the sex industry prospered. I have witnessed a couple of coups in the past and none had an effect on the mongering scene. Let's wait and see but I doubt it will be much different this time.

[PosterLion]

5:30am and not a single gunshot or bomb explosion. It is as boring at 5:30am today as it has been on any other early morning in Bangkok for the last three years.

My girlfriend is asleep on the bed and I am about to go to sleep myself. It's almost funny to think that a coup took place during the night. If I had not been reading ISG I doubt I would have noticed the coup at all.

Sondhi Boonyaratkalin (the Muslim) has been close to the King for a very long time according to my girlfriend. So guys, hold off on the hysterics and wait for some "real news" concerning the matter. Any speculation at this time should prove to be fruitless.

poster . . .

P.S. Does anyone have the details about the new Visa on Arrival rules? I think that subject bears further discussion as this so called coup should turn out to be a big yawn for us foreigners.

[Erik]

"The king and the army despise Bangkok being the capital of the world" ? That's a good one. Who has been organizing the business the past 50 years ? Who has been buying little girls upcountry ? Who has pocketed the royalties out of this business ?
Taksin, poor ousted head of a "free country". That's another good one. Don't tell me he has been democratically elected, Getting Tang, or I am going to cry... All what is happening is the replacement of the CEO of Thailand LTD. No big deal.
And where does the His Majesty's son stands in this mess ? He might not seem bright and completely mentally finished, but he likes girls, he likes money, he likes Taksin, he likes Taksin's money, above all he likes business, girls and money, and his hour is coming quick !

[Traveler1234]

The acting PM of a free country is ousted by the countries Muslim military leader and you respond by calling me a rumor monger? I think the real story is far more serious then any rumor here.


Your first post reads:
my sources tell me all hell is about to break loose in Thailand. The acting, or recently ousted PM is preparing his small, but loyal arm
If you have any way to get a seat out of Thailand right now, I would jump on it! That's not hysterics? That's not starting rumors when everyone else that lives in Bkk (whether on this Board or not) is literally 'yawning'?

I don't know who your sources are but 30 minutes after the public announcement I was on a conference call with some senior people in Thailand and they were yawning, and quite calm. I also put in call to classmate at state dept and he too was yamning.



One thing you as mongers can probably count on, is that the liberal prostitution policies, of looking the other way in Thailand, are probably on their way out now. This is just my own personal guess, as the King and his army are quite conservative and despise Thailand being the sex capital of the world. This has been a status they have wished to end for some time, now the oportunity is there. Things will change for sure.........
As far as sex capital issues - you're so off base I would even bother to reply. Others have addressed it better than I.

And anyone who knows anything re thai politics knows thaksin has been under pressure since last year, resigned, went through another election and was already under pressure due to questionable financial issues - I don't want to go into details here. This is not the appropriate forum - i think most mongers know what i am talking about.

Sorry Jackson, I hope this doesn't violate your no crosstalk rule :)

[1Ball]

A nice recap of the goings on over the last few months, courtesy of the BBC.

"Thailand's countdown coup
Thailand's latest political crisis traces its roots back to January when Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra sold his family's stake in the telecoms firm Shin Corp.
The move angered many, mainly urban Thais, who complained that the family avoided paying tax and had passed control of an important national asset to Singaporean investors.

It led to mass protests and calls for the resignation of the prime minister, who was already under pressure over his handling of a Muslim insurgency in the south and his extensive control over the media.

In a bid to tackle the crisis, and to show he still had widespread public support despite regular massive street protests in Bangkok, Mr Thaksin dissolved parliament in February and called a snap election for April.

Mr Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai party won 57% of the vote in the April election, but millions of Thais cast protest votes and the opposition refused to take part.

After weeks of limbo, Thailand's highly-revered King Bhumibol Adulyadej called the situation a "mess" and ordered the courts to sort it out.

'Military plot'

The election result was ruled invalid by the Constitutional Court and a new date was set for later this year.

Mr Thaksin took a seven-week break from politics following the election, but came back to work in May.


The atmosphere has remained tense ever since.

The Thai media has speculated about dissatisfaction towards Mr Thaksin within the military, which is traditionally very loyal to the king.

There has also been talk of a split within some parts of the army, following an annual reshuffle which saw some officers with links to Mr Thaksin moved.

The rumours took on a new urgency last month when police intercepted a car driven by a military officer and carrying a large bomb, near the prime minister's house.

Mr Thaksin accused several military officers of plotting to assassinate him.

His opponents accused him of fabricating a story to win him support in the forthcoming election.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/5361210.stm

Published: 2006/09/19 16:46:31 GMT"

[Japan]

I had just booked my flight to Thailand for next month, then I heard about this "coup" shit on the news!

You guys that are already there and/or in the know--what effect (if any) will this have? For mongering (in Bangkok and the Peninsula) as well as general tourist venues? Should I cancel my flight? Please, any info would be appreciated!

[Old Thai Hand]

There's been a major political event and all some guys can do is worry about the future of their little "hobby". Oh well, I guess that is the focus of this board. But, I always thought that the Living in Thailand thread was about wider issues and more practical things.

Anyway, the short of it is that as of Wed. morning, all Taksin's senior people are under house arrest, or have fled the country with their families. His wife is in Singapore, and the whereabouts of his children is not known. The government has been dissolved. The army has declared Marshal Law and a national holiday and has invited opposition political leaders, bank presidents, university presidents etc. to a meeting today to discuss the future including elections. Unlike past coups, this one is led by a senior member of the PAD, People's Alliance for Democracy and backed by the opposition party, The Democrats for Political Reform. I doubt very much that this a typical military dictatorship scenario and that in fact, it was the last straw to get the democratic process moving after Taksin had all but highjacked it in the last year. The man has been acting like a dictator since he was elected.

Oddly enough, I only found out this morning that I heard about the impending coup at about the same time (just after 9 pm last night) that Taksin did in New York. I got a cryptic sms, saying "There's going to be a coup tonight"; information that came to me via a friend close to a General in Thai Military Intelligence, who BTW is very anti-Taksin and I presume involved in this. About 15-20 minutes later I posted it on ISG and then chatted with Giotto and told him. At that time, it still hadn't even been announced on CNN yet. So, I guess ISG got the news before CNN (LOL).

The panic mongers on here like GettingTang don't know what they're talking about. It is not dangerous here. Although, it is sad that it had to come to this, the right people are now in charge and hopefully will get this country back on track.

Speculations about any royal involvement are not appropriate to speak of here (or anywhere, for that matter). I would strongly suggest that further remarks about that be curtailed, immediately. In fact, if you don't live here, Shut the Fuck Up! You don't know anything.

Here is an update regarding the King from the Nation:

His Majesty the King granted an audience to the Administrative Reform Council at midnight.

A TV announcer said His Majesty granted the audience to Army Commander-in-Chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratglin, head of the council, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm Sathiraphan Keyanon, Air Force Commander-in-Chief ACM Chalit Pukphasuk and Supreme Commander Gen Ruangroj Mahasalanon at midnight Tuesday.

The Nation



Comments about Gen. Sonthi being a muslim, and somehow therefore being a danger are ill-informed and stupid. Despite the violence in the extreme south, Thai muslims are very moderate and not of the same stripe at those extremists involved in terrorism. Although the US gov't., (in its spin campaign to link all muslim violence to terrorism) have linked the violence in the south to worldwide terrorist activities, it has no link to any of that. It is purely a war of independence against Thailand, by a group more ehtnically related to Malays than Thais, and nothing more.

[Dinghy]

As long as it's calm by 10/9 (pom ja ma muang Thai) I actually hope that the Baht will drop a bit against the US$$ - 40 would seem to be a good number

Unless there are bullets flying, it's pretty much of a ho-hum event (unless you are up close and personal)

Anyway - 1234 - I don't know if it makes any difference but having a Muslim general in charge might do more to quell the southern rebellion than ANYTHING Tak could have done (short of lining them up against the wall ans shooting everyone) The issue is more economic than religious

[Old Thai Hand]

ANNOUNCEMENTS

The current government administration has caused conflicts and undermined the harmony of the people as never before in history. Each side is determined to win by any means and the discord has shown a tendency to escalate.

Many people have been suspicious about the actions of the national administration under a constitutional monarchy.

The nation has been governed in a corrupt manner. Independent agencies have been dominated by politics. The constitutional intention is unserved.

This has led to political activities becoming problem-plagued on many fronts and the situation had worsened to the point where violations against His Majesty the King are in danger of occurring. This is despite efforts by many sections of society to resolve the problem. The efforts have not pacified the growing tension, however. For this reason, the Democratic Reform Council with the monarch as its head, which comprises the armed forces leaders and chief of the Royal Thai Police Office, has found it imperative to seize the power of government from this point onward. The council is steadfast in its objective, which is not to take over the government permanently and it will return power to the people as soon as possible.

The council is committed to preserving peace and security and to upholding the monarchy.

First coup announcement

In reference to the council's announcement of its power seizure earlier, for the sake of peace and order to prevail in the country, the council has imposed nationwide martial law. The council has repealed the state of emergency declared on Sept 19 at 9.05pm. This announcement is made by Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, head of the Democratic Reform Council.

Second coup announcement

The council has ordered that all mobilisation and movement of military logistics and manpower be prohibited. Military personnel are absolutely not to leave their units without permission from the council.

Third coup announcement

1. The current constitution, drafted in 1997, is now abrogated.

2. The House of Representatives, the Senate, the Cabinet and the Constitution Court are dissolved.

3. The privy councillors will remain in their duty.

4. The courts of justice, except the Constitution Court, will retain their full power.

Chronology

8 pm - Negotiations were held between a pro-Thaksin group led by Supreme Commander Gen Ruengroj Mahasaranont and another group led by Army Chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin. Privy Council president Gen Prem Tinsulanonda was approached to mediate in the talks. Gen Sonthi's group wanted Mr Thaksin to wash his hands off politics.

8.30 pm - Gen Prem had an audience with the King.

9.30 pm - Gen Prem left the palace. A source close to Gen Prem quoted the privy council president as saying that there would be no problems as Thaksin would leave politics.

9.05 pm - Thaksin refused to bow to pressure. He declared a state of emergency with Gen Ruangroj being appointed to enforce the state emergency. He sacked Gen Sonthi as army chief. Mr Thaksin's statement came on air around 10 pm and was taken off the air by the military just minutes later.

10 pm - Gen Sonthi's troops wearing yellow and blue ribbons drove their tanks towards Government House.

11 pm - Gen Sonthi's troops sieged Government House without any resistance from the pro-Thaksin group.

11.10 pm - The Democratic Reform Council issued a statement that it had taken control of the country.

12.00 am -The council had an audience with the King at Chitrlada Palace.

12.30 am - The council scrapped the state of emergency decree.

12.35 am - The council issued an order banning the movement of troops from their bases.

12.47 am - The council issued a third announcement abolishing the 1997 constitution, the Upper House, the Lower House, the Cabinet and the Constitution Court. The privy council remains in office. All courts except the Constitution Court retain their authority.

* A source said Gen Sonthi earlier consulted Gen Prem about his plan to seize power from the government. The privy council president acknowledged his plan, but did not give his view. During the past three months, Gen Prem reminded troops from the three armed forces in his lectures that they "belong to His Majesty the King and the country, and not to the politicians. Their foremost loyalty should always lie with the country and the King".

* Gen Sonthi, Navy Chief Adm Sathiraphan Keyanont, Air Force chief ACM Chalit Phukphasuk and national police chief Pol Gen Kowit Watana, who sit on the Democratic Reform Council, were classmates and graduates of Class 6 at the Armed Forces Academies Preparatory School.

[Traveler1234]

Anyway - 1234 - I don't know if it makes any difference but having a Muslim general in charge might do more to quell the southern rebellion than ANYTHING Tak could have done (short of lining them up against the wall ans shooting everyone) The issue is more economic than religious

I agree ..... Thak did a poor job down south but I won't go into it....don't want to make ISG persona no gratis with Thai authorities that may or not may not tune in to this forum.

Long term, I don't think this general will be in involved in the political arena but just a POV. Things have a way of working out in LOS and a 'peaceful' accomodation will be reached.

No need to get out of Dodge. In fact, my company has assets, brick and mortar as well as over 300 loyal employees in place, and we see this an opportunity for making some additional long term investments.

If I were in Bkk today, would feel safer than say being in Bali.

IMHO

[Giotto]

bangkok, thailand (cnn) -- army chief general sonthi boonyaratkalin has appeared on thailand tv to explain the military coup which has ousted prime minister thaksin shinawatra and his government.

speaking wednesday morning, sonthi said the coup was necessary to end intense conflicts in thailand's society that thaksin had created.

in his brief television address, sonthi said the coup makers had no intention to hold on to power and asked people to stay calm and render them support, the associated press reports.

speaking in front of giant portraits of thailand's king and queen, sondhi was flanked by chiefs of the three armed services and the head of the national police.

in his first public appearance, sondhi repeated earlier statements that the newly created council of administrative reform had revoked the constitution, ap reports.

he said thaksin's policies had created serious rifts that needed to be healed.

the chiefs of thailand's army, navy and air force earlier met king bhumibol adulyadej to declare they were taking over the country while thaksin was in new york for a u.n. meeting.

thaksin canceled a scheduled tuesday evening speech to the u.n. general assembly, a u.n. official said.

he said, however, that his government was still in control of the nation and later announced he was firing sonthi.

deputy prime minister surakiart sathirathai said that the supreme commander of thailand's armed forces -- gen. ruengroj mahasaranont -- would be in charge of bangkok. mahasaranont has made no public statement since the coup was announced.

...

a bit difficult to get any information in the moment, the website from bangkok post eg. is down.

today was declared to be a holiday, all banks, stock market etc. are closed.

the first thing i was asked by my hotel manager in the morning was whether we will open tonight or not. staff had called and asked. that's so thai - we have a coup, let's enjoy one more holiday!


giotto

[Giotto]

The Nation:

9:16 am Sonthi holds a press conference. The first part of his statement is similar to the first statement of the ARC. He says the ARC has to seize power to solve the country's problems caused by the Thaksin admnistration.

Sonthi appears on TV along with the police chief and commanders of other armed forces in the four-minute announcement.

After Sonthi finishes reading the statement, a spokeswoman announces that the TV pool is disbanded and TV stations resume normal programmes.

9:50 am A source in New York tells a radio programme that Thaksin is considering whether to go to England or not.

10:00 am Sondhi Limthongkul, a decision maker of the People's Alliance for Democracy, announces that the planned rally in the evening is cancelled. Sondhi also praises the army chief for staging the coup.

10:15 am Chamlong Srimuang, a decision maker of the PAD, passes the front of the army head office in a taxi. People give him an applaud as the taxi passes by.

10:40 am A spokesman of the AMC announces on TV pool that AMC invites students to take part in political reform. The spokesman says Gen Sonthi invites students to send suggestions on political reform to the AMC.

10:42 am A spokesman announces on TV pool that the AMC realises the problem of farmers and is considering how to help them so they should not demonstrate now.

10:45 am An AMC spokeswoman announces on TV pool that the AMC will take drastic action against any trader who hoard goods.

The spokeswoman also announces that the political gathering of more than five people is banned.

...

It doesn't look that bad in the moment, if the army stays united! (I hate to say that, but it's really the key issue in the moment).


Giotto

[Dorman]

Congratulations gentlemen, I knew if I wanted to get a good and accurate account of what was going on in Thailand then I simply had to ignore CNN or the BBC or whatever and instead go to the site where you'll always get the real story.

Whether it's bombs in Indonesia or tsunamis in Phuket the ISG is always your first port of call for the facts!

Well done to OldThaiHand, I think his first post alluding to the coup should be posted in the Reports of Distinction forum for its sheer scoop value.

[Blacklisted]

Congratulations gentlemen, I knew if I wanted to get a good and accurate account of what was going on in Thailand then I simply had to ignore CNN or the BBC or whatever and instead go to the site where you'll always get the real story.

Whether it's bombs in Indonesia or tsunamis in Phuket the ISG is always your first port of call for the facts!

Well done to OldThaiHand, I think his first post alluding to the coup should be posted in the Reports of Distinction forum for its sheer scoop value.


I fully agree. Already checked several news sites, but you guys are much more informative and provide a very balanced view (of course, I refer to Giotto and Old Thai Hand predominantly)

I'm very grateful for the information as I'll be heading to Fuckit in a couple of weeks and DO NOT want to cancel the flight!

[Giotto]

The Nation, Coup as it unfolds:

Yesterday:

10.20pm Thaksin declares a state of emergency via the phone from New York. He also issues two orders, transferring en Sondhi from the post of army chief to the PM's Office, and naming Gen Rungroj Mahasaranond as the officer in charge of the crisis.

Today:

10:58 am The ARC issues its 11th announcement to appoint members of the council as following:

1 Supreme Commander Gen Ruangroj Mahasaranon becomes chief adviser of the ARC.

2 Army Commander-in-Chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratglin becomes chief of the ARC.

3 Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm Sathiraphan Keyanon becomes first deputy chief of ARC.

4 Air Force Commander-in-Chief ACM Chalit Pookpasuk becomes second deputy chief of ARC.

5 Police Commissioner-General Pol Lt Gen Kowit Wattana becomes third deputy chief of the ARC

6 National Security Council secretary-general Gen Winai Phatthiyakul becomes secretary-general of the ARC.


That means: The General which was appointed by Thaksin as "officer in charge of the crisis" is now a member of the council. And - the chief of the police is also in there. I would be carefully optimistic now, that the worst is already over.

Most likely the Bank of Thailand Governor MR Pridiyathorn Devakula will become interim Prime Minister, which is not a bad choice at all.

The Nation:

Bank of Thailand Governor reportedly accepted to become the Prime Minister

Bank of Thailand Governor MR Pridiyathorn Devakula cut short his trip to attend the International Monetary Fund/World Bank meeting in Singapore and he will arrive Bangkok at noontime.

He said he agreed to accept to become Prime Minister. Nonetheless, it was expected that there would be a press conference at the Arm Force auditorium today.


Giotto

[Levitian]

... you are doing a great job here keeping people updated. I also do appreciate your evaluation of the situation.
I personally think it is for the good of the country: things were somewhat unreal in the recent months, and even if the economy was prospering, the developments since January were all but good.

All the best for you guys, and for Thailand!

Levitian

[Nutso]

Agreed - OTH, Giotto et al - keep it up. CNN and the rest are simply rehashing the same stuff.

[JuiceSpike]

Around 1PM I saw this guy laying on the street with his head bleeding and going into shock... Corner of Suk and Asoke.

Don't know what happened. I heard no gun shots but maybe he got a nasty head bud from one of the GIs. Then an ambulance came over 8 minutes later to pick him up. Thais walking by were a bit shocked and foreigners just turn around and left as soon as possible.

Otherwise, everything seems normal...

juices

[Old Thai Hand]

3pm - Just saw a number of soldiers along Sukhumvit between Ekamai and Emporium, all smiling and have a great time. People were offering them garlands and having pics taken.

Only in Thailand.

Best Reaction 1. Bangkok Thais are happy that...

1/ There is a holiday for many today. (me included...lol)
2/ There are no traffic jams.
3/ They can have their pictures taken with smiling soldier, and if they are lucky a tank (wow)...quote from a smiling, excited street vendor rushing towards government house during the coup, "I've never seen a tank before!"

and, oh yes...

4/ Taksin is gone. His official spokesman is quoted as saying, "We have to accept what happened. We are not coming back soon."

Well since Taksin is barred from entering the country, since they have frozen his bank accounts and assets in the country, and since the army has occupied his three residences (Hua Hin, Bangkok and Chiang Mai), I think it's safe to speculate, that he's not coming back at all. (When a leader is deposed, I always wonder who goes in and cleans out his sock and underwear drawer...lol)

(mmm...I also wonder if his daughter will be at the university, tomorrow. I'll have ask someone if she's there when I go into work...)


Best Reaction 2.

seen today on a sign outside a pub somewhere on Sukhumvit...

"Coup Happy Hour Special...4-7....buy 2 beers, get one free"...awww, the entrepreneurial spirit during a crisis.


Worst Reactions

1/ The Australian Government warning their citizens to stay indoors, or better yet, leave Thailand, calling the coup a destruction of democracy.

2/ New Zealand "condemns the coup".

3/ Malaysia's PM said, "I am really shocked. I didn't expect a coup would have taken place in Thailand." Has this guy been smoking crack? Rumours of a possible coup have been swirling around the region for weeks.

Obviously none of them have been paying attention to what Taksin has been doing to democracy over the last five years.

4/ The International media for just not really understanding the motivations behind this, not understanding Thailand, being overly dramatic and just not really getting it right at all.
4a/ ...The BBC in particular for suggesting earlier this afternoon (in the face of the overwhelming evidence of a 'fait accompli') "that it may not be over for Taksin yet" because of his strong rural support, even though the urban elite were against him and support the coup. Don't they get it that whether you like it or not, the urban elite call the shots? Taksin's upcountry support will collapse and fall into place like sheep, behind whoever's in charge.


BTW, it was announced awhile ago that a civilian government will be appointed within 2 weeks. I really believe these guys are going to be true to their word. This was about getting rid of Taksin, and restoring democracy, not about installing a military dictatorship.

[Old Thai Hand]

around 1pm i saw this guy laying on the street with his head bleeding and going into shock... corner of suk and asoke.

don't know what happened. i heard no gun shots but maybe he got a nasty head bud from one of the gis. then an ambulance came over 8 minutes later to pick him up. thais walking by were a bit shocked and foreigners just turn around and left as soon as possible.

otherwise, everything seems normal...

juices

maybe the guy was drunk, hopped up on glue or stoned on yaba and fell over and cracked his head on something. there have been exactly zero reports of anything unusual. it is all almost too normal. i woundn't jump to any conclusions. i already think the foreign media are looking for anything to overplay this whole thing because it has been so thai and non-confrontational. it was completely peaceful. most people in bangkok are quite happy with it. upcountry, maybe not...well...unfortunately they have no power... and taksin gave them the illusion that he cared by his fake healthcare schemes and 100 baht notes while he raped the country of millions...so who cares?

[Giotto]

this is how it was. my hat is off, general sonthi.


the nation:

prothaksin commander accepted 'consensus'

negotiations between top brass aligned with the administrative reform council (arc) and a prothaksinshinawatra commander allowed the successful mobilisation of antithaksin forces across the capital.

commanders of the three military branches - including army chief and arc leader general sonthi boonyaratglin - met at army headquarters off rajdamnoen avenue to discuss plans to rep001ter antithaksin forces throughout bangkok swiftly and minimise the chances of progovernment forces mounting resistance.

coup leaders confronted prin suwannathat - commander of the first infantry division and a classmate of thaksin during their military academy years.


they asked him: "we have a consensus for a coup. what's your stance?"


prin reportedly replied: "it's up to all of you."


the arc proceeded with its plan and issued a statement announcing the coup at 10pm yesterday. it informed his majesty the king and privy council president prem tinsulanonda.


unit commanders loyal to thaksin gathered at the home of defence minister thamarak isarangura to discuss possible resistance, all the while trying to negotiate with arc leaders.


supreme commander general ruengroj mahasaranond reportedly sided initially with prothaksin forces, then switched sides.


infantry battalions mobilised jointly from the second infantry division at prachin buri and the elite ninth infantry division at kanchanaburi. they streamed into bangkok within one hour.


commandos from the special warfare command - in which sonthi served during his active career - had already entered bangkok and were stationed at key locations.


the remaining special operations forces had been ordered on standby.


the first, second and third special operations divisions were at three locations in lop buri province.


the forces that sealed off key locations - including government house and the headquarters of the special branch police - were those from the 31st infantry regiment (royal guards). tanks and armoured personnel carriers manned checkpoints in bangkok. helicopters and other military "hardware" were ready for deployment.


members of the first cavalry division - based in the north - has entered bangkok and the 15th infantry regiment from the south is prepared to move into the capital.

[Old Thai Hand]

The Nation, Coup as it unfolds:

Yesterday:

10.20pm Thaksin declares a state of emergency via the phone from New York. He also issues two orders, transferring en Sondhi from the post of army chief to the PM's Office, and naming Gen Rungroj Mahasaranond as the officer in charge of the crisis.

Today:

10:58 am The ARC issues its 11th announcement to appoint members of the council as following:

1 Supreme Commander Gen Ruangroj Mahasaranon becomes chief adviser of the ARC.

2 Army Commander-in-Chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratglin becomes chief of the ARC.

3 Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm Sathiraphan Keyanon becomes first deputy chief of ARC.

4 Air Force Commander-in-Chief ACM Chalit Pookpasuk becomes second deputy chief of ARC.

5 Police Commissioner-General Pol Lt Gen Kowit Wattana becomes third deputy chief of the ARC

6 National Security Council secretary-general Gen Winai Phatthiyakul becomes secretary-general of the ARC.


That means: The General which was appointed by Thaksin as "officer in charge of the crisis" is now a member of the council. And - the chief of the police is also in there. I would be carefully optimistic now, that the worst is already over.

Most likely the Bank of Thailand Governor MR Pridiyathorn Devakula will become interim Prime Minister, which is not a bad choice at all.

The Nation:

Bank of Thailand Governor reportedly accepted to become the Prime Minister

Bank of Thailand Governor MR Pridiyathorn Devakula cut short his trip to attend the International Monetary Fund/World Bank meeting in Singapore and he will arrive Bangkok at noontime.

He said he agreed to accept to become Prime Minister. Nonetheless, it was expected that there would be a press conference at the Arm Force auditorium today.


Giotto



You forgot...

Yesterday:

9:30pm OTH warns Giotto of an impending coup.....LOL

[Giotto]

You forgot...

Yesterday:

9:30pm OTH warns Giotto of an impending coup.....LOLCorrect, my friend, how it really was (the world needs to know!!!):

--> I read your post in here
--> I thought (that happens sometimes) that I should ask you some questions
--> I started up MSN but did not see you in there
--> So I checked CNN and found - NOTHING
--> Then suddenly an MSN window popped up with OTH giving me some more infos

Now the last remaining question is: Did Pipeman plan the Coup or not :) ?


Giotto

[Retired Army]

I had just booked my flight to Thailand for next month, then I heard about this "coup" shit on the news!

You guys that are already there and/or in the know--what effect (if any) will this have? For mongering (in Bangkok and the Peninsula) as well as general tourist venues? Should I cancel my flight? Please, any info would be appreciated!

This is a regularly scheduled coup. In a month it will have mostly blown over. Mongering shouldn't be affected in the long term.

My major concern is that the leader of the coup is a muslim. That could have serious long term consequences for Thailand. Especially in the South. That's why I am seriously considering relocating to Chiang Mai.

[Old Thai Hand]

Correct, my friend, how it really was (the world needs to know!!!):

--> I read your post in here
--> I thought (that happens sometimes) that I should ask you some questions
--> I started up MSN but did not see you in there
--> So I checked CNN and found - NOTHING
--> Then suddenly an MSN window popped up with OTH giving me some more infos

Now the last remaining question is: Did Pipeman plan the Coup or not :) ?


Giotto

Rename him Pipe-bomb perhaps. Was he behind the alleged plot to kill the ex-caretaker PM, too?

[Giotto]

...
And whoever heads this coup is gone already, whether he wins or loses this specific battle, but due to the fact that nobody ever will trust his loyalty again - he will very soon be history!
I think now, that this was a misjudgement and needs to be corrected.

Sonthi obviously went the way of looking for a consensus with the Thaksin supporters within the army BEFORE he acted.

The rumors I hear here is that His Majesty the King was informed and at least did not stop the coup, I heard some statements of that he even approved it (but this will never be officially confirmed). The fact, that the royal family did not intervene up to now makes everybody believe that the coup is supported by them.


Giotto

[Old Thai Hand]

G.

The info on the troop movements is all true. But, one piece of this that seems to have not been reported (yet, anyway) is the fact that The Royal Guard regiments erected barricades during the initial stages of the coup. There is only one way they could have been ordered to do that.

Think about it. That's all I'll say.

[Old Thai Hand]

This is a regularly scheduled coup. In a month it will have mostly blown over. Mongering shouldn't be affected in the long term.

My major concern is that the leader of the coup is a muslim. That could have serious long term consequences for Thailand. Especially in the South. That's why I am seriously considering relocating to Chiang Mai.

RA

The fact that he's a muslim, if anything is an asset, especially in the face of what's happening in the south. I lived in a Thai muslim neighborhood for 2 1/2 years and found them really not much different from Buddhist Thais. Thai muslims are among the most moderate muslims in the world, the violence in the south, notwithstanding. I reported in the Living in Thailand thread that the violence there is to do with a separatist muslim buffer state (extremist ambitions) and more autonomy within Thailand (the majority view and wish). It has nothing to do with terrorism, or anti-western/anti-American sentiment, although George W's stupid comments on it in the past haven't helped America's image down there in any way.

BTW. There are a lot of muslims in CM. So, I wouldn't look there as a place to escape to.

[Retired Army]

RA

The fact that he's a muslim, if anything is an asset, especially in the face of what's happening in the south. I lived in a Thai muslim neighborhood for 2 1/2 years and found them really not much different from Buddhist Thais. Thai muslims are among the most moderate muslims in the world, the violence in the south, notwithstanding. I reported in the Living in Thailand thread that the violence there is to do with a separatist muslim buffer state (extremist ambitions) and more autonomy within Thailand (the majority view and wish). It has nothing to do with terrorism, or anti-western/anti-American sentiment, although George W's stupid comments on it in the past haven't helped America's image down there in any way.

BTW. There are a lot of muslims in CM. So, I wouldn't look there as a place to escape to.

I hope you are correct. My GF/wife sees it differently and she is obvisouly more aware of the situation than I. Anyway, we have been looking for a good excuse to move to Chiang Mai and this may be as good as any.

[Giotto]

This seams to be a bit long...


Breaking News Bangkok Post:

Thai coup leaders says new polls in Oct 2007

Bangkok (dpa) - Thailand's military coup leaders on Wednesday pledged to remain in power for no more than two weeks before handing rule over to an appointed civilian government and predicted a general election would be held by October 2007.

Thai Army Commander-in-Chief Sonthi Boonyaratklin - the leader of the Administrative Reform Council, which took power Tuesday night in a surprise coup while caretaker prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra was in New York attending the United Nations General Assembly - assured a press conference that the military would end martial law as soon as the situation was back to normal.

Sonthi - flanked by the chiefs of the navy, air force, supreme command and police - passed on similar assurances to scores of Bangkok-based diplomats shortly before the press conference.

"And I can assure you there will be no changes in foreign policy whatsoever," Sonthi told the diplomats.

Sonthi, deemed a "professional soldier" who is loyal to Thai King Bhumibol Adulyadej, mobilized troops and tanks to key strategic spots throughout Bangkok Tuesday night, effectively seizing power from Thaksin's caretaker cabinet.

He claimed the coup, which he had decided upon two days ago, was necessary to put an end to corruption, national divisions, and the undermining of independent agencies and the monarchy under Thaksin's rule.

Bhumibol, who is head of state under Thailand's constitutional monarchy, had been informed of the coup prior to its implementation, sources said.

Thaksin, who has reportedly left New York on Wednesday for London, where he owns an apartment building, attempted to derail the coup by declaring a state of emergency in a televised broadcast. The broadcast, on Thai Channel 9, was cut off by the military, which had seized the airwaves by 10 p.m. (1500 GMT) Tuesday.

The Administrative Reform Council, immediately suspended the cabinet, the Senate, the constitutional court and the 1997 constitution, apparently to pave the way for amendments largely aimed at preventing the return of a populist premier like Thaksin.

Military coups have been common in Thailand. There have been 17 coups since 1932, when a group of army officers and government officials overthrew the absolute monarchy and installed a democratic system under a constitutional monarchy. The last coup took place in 1991.

Bangkok's streets were calm Wednesday with no signs that fighting had broken out between the coup makers and officers known to be loyal to Thaksin.

Whether Thailand's rural population will rise up in support of Thaksin, who remains popular among the poor, remained uncertain although political observers doubted a provincial uprising would occur.

"They have to be mobilized," said Thitinan Pongsudhirak, a political science professor at Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University. "The problem with Thaksin is he has his followers, but they are all in the countryside, and he has to pay them to take a bus to the capital and provide lunches and per diem."

Although Thaksin's populist policies have won him devoted rural followers, he lost his shine in Bangkok this year.

"I liked Thaksin when he first came to power five years ago, but in the past two years, he hasn't delivered on his promises, and he's greedy," said Omtip Songthakul, a 44-year-old state enterprise worker who had gathered Wednesday with friends outside army headquarters in Bangkok to cheer the military.

Thaksin, a billionaire telecommunications tycoon who has been prime minister since 2001, has been abroad since September 9, on state visits to Finland, Cuba and the United States to attend conferences, but many suspected it was to avoid a brewing political crisis at home.

The United States, European Union and Thailand's Asian neighbours have expressed concerns over the political crisis and hopes that democracy will be restored swiftly and peacefully.

Thaksin has been under pressure to resign since January when his family sold its share in the Thaksin-founded Shin Corp to the Singapore government's Temasek Holding in a 1.9-billion-dollar, tax-free deal that irked Bangkok's tax-paying middle classes and elite.

Thaksin's wife, Pojaman, reportedly flew to Singapore Monday night. There had been rumours in the local press that the Shinawatra family, worth more than 2 billion dollars at least, have been moving assets out of the country for weeks.

Thaksin dissolved parliament in February and called for a snap election in an effort to regain his legitimacy in the face of mounting street protests against his allegedly corrupt administration and dictatorial leadership.

Thailand's three main opposition parties boycotted the April 2 polls, which Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai Party won. The results, however, were annulled by the constitutional court in May after Thailand's much revered king said he had found the election undemocratic and urged the judiciary to act.

Thaksin's political fortunes have arguably been on the decline since. Speculation that Thaksin might return as prime minister after a general election expected in late November had sparked fears that his comeback would severely divide the country.

...



Giotto

[MarcoStraight]

My major concern is that the leader of the coup is a muslim.

Sure about that ?

[Retired Army]

Sure about that ?

I don't know. If you think differently please post your opinion.

My Thai GF/wife claims that Thailand isn't safe anymore and she is very concerned.

[Giotto]

Sure about that ?Sure, Sonthi is a muslim.


Giotto

[MarcoStraight]

Sure, Sonthi is a muslim.


Giotto

Very , very bad then... :(

[Old Thai Hand]

Very , very bad then... :(

why bad? what do you know about Thai muslims? Don't buy into that western bullshit propaganda that all muslims are terrorists and like bin Laden. This guy is a moderate, professional, humble and what's most important a close personal friend and confidant of the king.

[Freeman 418]

It should be rectified in a week or two.. they're already working on installing an interim government until next year's elections, and in the meantime elect a temp. PM.

The C&C's religious status is of no importance, otherwise he wouldn't have attained such a high position in the military, being of a minority.. he's obviously liked by the big guys.. all of this also had official backing from the top.



This is a regularly scheduled coup. In a month it will have mostly blown over. Mongering shouldn't be affected in the long term.

My major concern is that the leader of the coup is a muslim. That could have serious long term consequences for Thailand. Especially in the South. That's why I am seriously considering relocating to Chiang Mai.

[MarcoStraight]

why bad? what do you know about Thai muslims? Don't buy into that western bullshit propaganda that all muslims are terrorists and like bin Laden. This guy is a moderate, professional, humble and what's most important a close personal friend and confidant of the king.

..And what do you know about thai muslim instead ? Are you an expert of thai-muslim society or what ? I "don't buy into that western bullshit propaganda" don't worry , I just say what I saw in almost 30 years living and working around the world , most of the time in South East. All the S.E. places with big muslim comunity have been witness of bombs,riots or attacks to western companies.

India (Border with Pakistan)
Malesia (Kuala Lampur) A friend of mine was almost killed during the Macdonald's attack few years ago.
Indonesia (Bali).
South Thailand.
Phillipines.

The fact you're living in a Thai muslim neighborhood for 2 1/2 years won't change my opinion .... In a country considered by many "the heaven of *****mongers" , a muslim moderate,humble guy , like you said, is anyway 100 time worst than the most puritan , moralist , arrogant , buddhist fellow.

[Mature Man]

I think everyone is reacting all too soon. From what i saw on Tv and read on the net This Sonthi will step down in 2 weeks after forming an alternative.

Thaksin was most certainly for himself. How on earth can you excuse a man to save his money from taxes when the average Thai struggles to make a living.

Besides Budhists far outnumber Muslims in Thailand.

You will find democracy back in Thailand shortly with the new guys toeing the rules of democracy , less corrupted and taking care of the people and the country, hopefully for some years.


..And what do you know about thai muslim instead ? Are you an expert of thai-muslim society or what ? I "don't buy into that western bullshit propaganda" don't worry , I just say what I saw in almost 30 years living and working around the world , most of the time in South East. All the S.E. places with big muslim comunity have been witness of bombs,riots or attacks to western companies.

India (Border with Pakistan)
Malesia (Kuala Lampur) A friend of mine was almost killed during the Macdonald's attack few years ago.
Indonesia (Bali).
South Thailand.
Phillipines.

The fact you're living in a Thai muslim neighborhood for 2 1/2 years won't change my opinion .... In a country considered by many "the heaven of *****mongers" , a muslim moderate,humble guy , like you said, is anyway 100 time worst than the most puritan , moralist , arrogant , buddhist fellow.

[Old Thai Hand]

..And what do you know about thai muslim instead ? Are you an expert of thai-muslim society or what ? I "don't buy into that western bullshit propaganda" don't worry , I just say what I saw in almost 30 years living and working around the world , most of the time in South East. All the S.E. places with big muslim comunity have been witness of bombs,riots or attacks to western companies.

India (Border with Pakistan)
Malesia (Kuala Lampur) A friend of mine was almost killed during the Macdonald's attack few years ago.
Indonesia (Bali).
South Thailand.
Phillipines.

The fact you're living in a Thai muslim neighborhood for 2 1/2 years won't change my opinion .... In a country considered by many "the heaven of *****mongers" , a muslim moderate,humble guy , like you said, is anyway 100 time worst than the most puritan , moralist , arrogant , buddhist fellow.


I can understand your concern and see your point of view. I do know quite a bit about Thai muslims, not just from living among them, but from teaching about them in cross-cultural studies. I've also had a lot of muslim students here.

But, who knows really in such a world what anyone could do? Maybe it is bad. We'll just to have to wait and see.

[Old Thai Hand]

Activists, former MP arrested after staging protest

A group of democracy activists led by Chalard Vorachat became the first people to be arrested for defying the Administrative Reform Council's (ARC) order banning political assemblies and gatherings by five or more people.

Meanwhile, Thanaphol Eiwsakul, editor of the alternative magazine Fah Diew Kan, condemned the coup as illegitimate and vowed to stage a protest Thursday, citing the right to assembly included in the 1997 Constitution, that was nullified by the ARC after the coup.

Chalard was arrested at Democracy Monument at 12.30pm Wednesday while protesting against the coup, Prachathai news online reported.

Others who joined Chalard and were later arrested included former Ratchaburi MP Thawee Kraikupt. The group had unfurled a banner that said "Fasting in Protest Against the Destroyer of Democracy".

Thanaphol urged the public to condemn and resist the army takeover by exercising their rights spelt out in Article 65 of the 1997 Constitution to peacefully oppose a coup. But the ARC has warned that protesters face up to six months in jail, a fine of up to Bt10,000, or both.

In its seventh statement, the ARC said it had imposed the ban on such gatherings to ensure the country runs smoothly during the period of martial law that started on Tuesday night.

"I disagree with the coup. The problem was Thaksin [Shinwatra], but it was resolved by tearing apart the Constitution. It's not right," Thanaphol said.

"As a journalist I call for media diversity," he said, in reference to the ARC's order Wednesday ordering the media to exercise censorship of any news critical of the coup-makers and the new military regime.

"Coups are a relic of the past and even [United Nations Secretary-General] Kofi Anan doesn't approve. We call on the people to resist."

A group of students calling themselves "News Centre for Student Activities" also issued a statement condemning the coup, saying the action was "anti-democratic and truly dictatorial". The group urged the Thai people to wear black to mourn the death of Thai democracy and to refrain from co-operating with the "military junta".

It also urged the Campaign for Popular Democracy, which the group said had claimed to be supporting democracy, to oppose the ARC.

General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, who heads the ARC, has promised to return power to the people soon.

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

[Giotto]

Very , very bad then... :(
Let's try to get some basic facts for this discussion:

Thailand Religions:

--> 95 % of the population are Buddhists.

--> about 4% of the population, mainly living in the south of Thailand, are Muslim.

--> The remaining 1% are Confucians, Taoists, Christians, and Hindus.

Thai people are said to be very tolerant of other faiths and treat all religions with respect.

I think this should end the discussion before it seriously starts.


Giotto

[Giotto]

20:17
His Majesty the King officially endorses appointment of coup council of administrative reform with Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin as head.

...

I understand this as good news now, another step to stabilize the situation to officially install the council by His Majesty the King.


Giotto

[Duniawala]

The US news media has not given much coverage to the coup (as usual). It is not even in the top ten headlines. So I can safely assume that the US interests in Thailand is not threatened. I guess that's the good news.

A premature question (maybe) but how is the daily life in BKK. Are the shops etc. open? Massage parlors? restaurants? Thermae? The Sports Bar?

No refund available for my Thai Airways tickets so I am going to be there on Monday. Hopefully, the hotels and other amenities will be back to normal.

[Giotto]

...
A premature question (maybe) but how is the daily life in BKK. Are the shops etc. open? Massage parlors? restaurants? Thermae? The Sports Bar?
Today:

Shops were open all day. Banks closed, Stock market closed, all Government agencies and offices closed. Massage parlors - to be honest I had no time for that today :) . Tomorrow, OK :) ?

Thermae - you need 10 elephants to get me in there.

In this moment: 20.09.2006, 10:20 pm

The bars and restaurants are open, business started late but it is surprisingly good. The Sports Lounge is quite full.

Yesterday many bars closed around 11.00 pm - and the streets were empty.

The situation is very close to normal in the moment, but not too many people are on the streets.


Giotto

[PosterLion]

The Big C across from Central World Plaza closed early today. My GF went to collect some groceries, but could not because the store was unexpectedly shut.

The 7-11 on soi Lang Suan is open, but is not selling any alchohol.

Other than that, things are as normal. I have yet to see any Army personnel, but I have not ventured beyond 7-11 since yesterday. I guess that makes me a homebody. :)

[El Greco]

News here in Athens Greece are saying that the generals declared a transfer of power after two weeks in order of elections to take place.

Shinawatra declared a state of emergency and is flying to London.

[Jetmech322]

I don't usually post here, but was reading your posts and have to interject. I first want to say that I'm not an expert on thai politics or history. I have travelled to Thailand four times within the last two years, and have many friends living there retired in different areas. Let me first start off by saying to old thai hand that I take offense at your statement that we should not believe western propaganda about muslims, muslim politics, and behaviors. We in the west (myself an american) know all too well of what happens when a country is taken over control by this so called religion of peace! What I think you need to do sir is to educate yourself about muslim history and it's spread throughout the world, and I don't mean the popular politically correct version. The muslim religion and teachings promote the spreading of islam throughout the world by the sword! , and that is peciesly how it was spread! I was at one time in my life married to a filipina from southern Philippines, and I can tell you how dangerious it is to have a muslim majority controlled government! Once these people get control of power they will inforce thier will on the people, by the sword if necessary to acheive thier goals of muslim rule.

Now I hope for the sake of my many friends living there, and for the thai people, this time in thier history will pass quickly, and life will return back to normal. I guess that I just don't see and understand is why would you stage a coup, suspend your constitution, and declair martial law, in order to get rid of ONE politcian? , and then tell the people that the armed forces will return the power back to the people no more that one year from now? ! Maybe I just don't understand thai politics or history, but for me if I was a thai citizen, this would be a serious wakeup call for me. I guess we will just have to see how this all play's out?

[Member #2041]

I am most dissappointed in this coup. The Baht only fell from 37.2 to 37.7 Baht per dollar. I was hoping for at least 38 before my trip in November.

If it's true that Thaksin has not gotten most of his money out of the country, then perhaps his supporters in the rural upcountry can be bought back by the coup - I imagine that 500 baht per citizen would more than cover it. That would only cost a bit over a Billion dollars (which is, by most accounts, half of Thaksin's wealth).

And conveniently 500 baht is a very sufficient price for a good shagging in the rural country, so, in a sense, the populace is gets fairly compensated for getting screwed (in a purely political sense).

[Erik]

Duniawala, you mean good news for the US interests ? Oh, right...

[Traveler1234]

reactions to coup in thailand:
economic and financial impact
september 20, 2006 12:40 p.m.

while most analysts and economists are troubled by the events in thailand, they say the situation appears to be contained. unlike the 1997 asian financial crisis -- which began when thailand's currency, the baht, plunged -- the problems this time are limited to thailand, it seems. financial markets in the country are closed, but could take a hit when they reopen thursday. other asian markets felt a slight impact. the baht fell on news of the coup, but has since recovered most losses.



click to email this article click to email this article click to format this article for printing click to format this article for printing view a list of most popular articles on our site
advertisement
today's most popular
1. thailand coup tests democracy
2. m.b.a. survey: something old, something new
3. what went wrong at amaranth
4. how natural-gas bets sank hedge-fund trader
5. yahoo warns of slower ad growth
personalized home page setup
put headlines on your homepage about the companies, industries and topics that interest you most.

reactions to coup in thailand:
economic and financial impact
september 20, 2006 12:40 p.m.

while most analysts and economists are troubled by the events in thailand, they say the situation appears to be contained. unlike the 1997 asian financial crisis -- which began when thailand's currency, the baht, plunged -- the problems this time are limited to thailand, it seems. financial markets in the country are closed, but could take a hit when they reopen thursday. other asian markets felt a slight impact. the baht fell on news of the coup, but has since recovered most losses.
* * *

while any descent from constitutional democracy (however imperfect) is regrettable, we think overnight developments in thailand probably set up a net reduction in political uncertainty and could enable a speedier resumption of decisive governance that boosts already sagging business and consumer spirits. investors have heavily penalized thai stocks since last year amid deepening political uncertainty, with the benchmark set index having gained just 9% in u.s. dollar terms since january 2005; as such, the seti now elicits some of the region's deepest valuation discounts. the sluggish domestic economy -- partly resulting from political frictions, of course -- has taken its toll….
--michael kurtz, economist at bear stearns, which raised its recommendation on thai stocks to "overweight" from "market weight"
* * *

there finally is the light at the end of the tunnel for the overhang [of] political conflicts. barring one person out of the political race for the interest of the public without any violence is in fact a positive thing. therefore, any significant fall would provide a bargain opportunity.
--chalee keuyen, an analyst at trinity securities, to dow jones newswires
* * *

on the whole, asian economies are resilient to external shocks, having strengthened their macroeconomic frameworks, increased exchange-rate flexibility and reduced external vulnerabilities in recent years. thailand's economy is fundamentally strong, and financial market reactions have been limited.
--international monetary fund managing director rodrigo rato in a statement
* * *

we expect massive selling of thai equities, especially thaksin-related companies, when the market reopens. we expect foreigners and locals with ties to pm thaksin to buy dollars with the proceeds, which would mean further upward pressure on the dollar [against the baht].
--tim condon, ing singapore's head of research and chief economist for asia, to dow jones newswires
* * *

i'm cautiously optimistic. i think you're going to see a knee-jerk reaction, but as long as the elections are brought forward in a timely manner, you'll see the market move higher than before the coup in a short period of time. … this is not macroeconomic in nature. thailand is still running very healthy external numbers. i don't think the economy will be shaken, and i don't think it will affect other markets in the region.
--lance depew, who oversees the $250 million thai-focused equity fund for quest management in bangkok, to marketwatch
* * *

the situation in thailand is a very isolated incident. it is unlikely to have a sustained major impact on the rest of the region, including the region's stock markets. the situation in asia is very different now compared with 1997. asian countries have current-account surpluses instead of deficits, and they are less dependent on sustained foreign investments to keep their economies stable.
--kirby daley, vice president and strategist at fimat alternative investment solutions, a unit of societe generale securities, to dow jones newswires
* * *

nine years ago, an outbreak of bahtulism in thailand wreaked havoc throughout the far east. the announcement of a state of emergency, following the entry of troops into bangkok, won't have any such exciting repercussions for emerging markets today. nevertheless, it's bad news for foreign investors who've recently poured money into the country.
--edward chancellor at breakingviews in a comment
* * *

thai creditworthiness is better than it was during the asian financial crisis. we think the current thai problem will not expand to another round of asian financial crisis; the possibility is relatively low when compared to the conditions of 1997 and 1998. … it's too early to call and judge what is the real purpose of the military coup.
--vincent ho, associate director of asian sovereign ratings, fitch ratings, told marketwatch
* * *

little fallout [was seen] from yesterday's political turmoil in thailand -- in contrast to the contagion in 1997, this was not a financial event and besides, these asian countries today have current-account surpluses, sizeable foreign-exchange reserves and flexible currencies (the thai baht may have endured its worst showing in four years yesterday, but in stark contrast to a decade ago, the country ran a $309-million current-account surplus in july -- moody's has already dismissed talk of a credit downgrade since there is no "immediate risk of an external payments crisis").
--david rosenberg, north american economist at merrill lynch, in a morning commentary
* * *

in the near term, the declaration of a state of emergency in thailand will likely contribute to stronger demand for dollars. despite the localized weakness in thai markets, the complications will likely remain centered in thailand and not spread to other emerging asian economies. some market participants have erroneously cited a potential similarity between thailand today and the nation's role as a catalyst for the asia crisis in 1997. these allegations are thoroughly distorted, in our view. the political calendar in the rest of asia is more benign, balance-of-payments positions remain strong, and many observers already incorporated a weaker thai baht [in their forecasts for the thai economy and markets]. for example, we preserve our longstanding year-end forecast for u.s. dollar/thai baht at 40, as well as expectations for underperformance relative to the rest of the region.
--lawrence goodman at bank of america in a note
* * *

today's thai military coup has raised questions about a more widespread emerging market fall and led some to try to draw comparisons to the asian crisis. we don't expect a large-scale exodus from emerging markets, though we do expect a further slide in the thai baht in the short-term. today's events are not the start of a political crisis in thailand, but the result of months of uncertainty that [have] stalled economic decision making. that started in january when the prime minister sold his family's holdings in the telecom company shin corp. the family was accused of avoiding taxes and selling a national asset. … while the outcome of the coup, if successful, could lead to the return of a normally functioning government approved by the majority, that outcome remains uncertain. that uncertainty will continue to limit economic decision-making and weigh on confidence.
--brown brothers harriman analyst marc chandler in a note
* * *

the thai baht tumbled on the news of the military action, posting its largest one-day loss in two years. the baht is weaker again today, but it is not the worst-performing currency. meanwhile, the asian currency bloc is recovering somewhat after losing ground on the thai news yesterday. … the roiling political situation was largely ignored as the thai baht rallied over the past few years. the logjam was rather effectively cleared. if the military action is short-term and a return to civilian control is speedy, the thai economy should escape in fine shape. these developments have led to the sharpest losses in the baht in four years. but keep in mind that, after the turmoil of the late-1990s, asian fx stockpiles have been bolstered for years to defend [against] such a development.
--david watt at bmo nesbitt burns in a morning note

[Duniawala]

Top line of the WSJ article today is quoted below and full story is available for those interested. Unlike those "hysterical get out of dodge, all hell is breaking loose" posts by some irresponsible 'mongers' (?), read what experts think of the last 48 hrs.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115876372815968906.html?mod=home_whats_news_us
FYI. The article is available for WSJ subcribers only.

[Murilloa]

Word from my contact in the local Thai embassy is that the new authorities have had prostitution on their 'to do' list for a while and a military style campaign in favor of the honor of Thai women is about to be launched.

This will feature heavy clamp down not just on current activity but also using hidden videos taken in recent months in NEP and other centers, matched with those cute pictures they take of you when you line up to have your passport stamped at the airport.

Maybe time for some longtime LOS mongers to join the deposed Thaksin in NYC.

[Seydlitz]

Word from my contact in the local Thai embassy is that the new authorities have had prostitution on their 'to do' list for a while and a military style campaign in favor of the honor of Thai women is about to be launched. This will feature heavy clamp down not just on current activity but also using hidden videos taken in recent months in NEP and other centers, matched with those cute pictures they take of you when you line up to have your passport stamped at the airport. Maybe time for some longtime LOS mongers to join the deposed Thaksin in NYC.

Even Castro in Cuba, with a far less sophisticated p4p scene and much more power that the Thai military will ever have, has not been able to eradicate prostitution.

In fact, nobody even completely suceeded in eradicating protitution. One can only clamp down on it for a while, possibly accumulating so much hassle that it becomes unattractive.

I fail to see why the Thai military would have the sex scene in their To Do list. I might be wrong, but frankly, I believe that they have much more urgent matters to address right now.

[Seydlitz]

We in the west (myself an american) know all too well of what happens when a country is taken over control by this so called religion of peace!

Relax, Thailand is overwhelmingly Bhuddist. No Muslim can rule it nor influence it much.


Maybe I just don't understand thai politics or history, but for me if I was a thai citizen, this would be a serious wakeup call for me. I guess we will just have to see how this all play's out?

Obviously, you really don't. At least you got that part right.

[Sebastian My]

Some of the posts seem to show a concern about what will occur in the future as distinct from any specific issues now. Personally i feel the army will hand over power in the specific time frame and the country will return to civilian rule very soon – with democracy perhaps taking a while to be re-instated. I suspect the democratic process will be modified to avoid another this type of problem in the future, although i have no idea how this will be done. Once again i suspect this happy result will be due to the stabilising effect of His Majesty. However, being someone with a historical interest in activities such as coup's there are some possible events we need to watch out for.
1.Effective resistance to the coup. If there was a large amount of fighting, or there are areas where the so-called loyalists are holding out, this can act as a rallying effect on opponents to the coup. This is certainly not the case here.
2.So called Loyalist leaders rallying support. If the leaders of the former government openly declare they will resist and will be coming back, this could also act as a rally call. My impression is this is also not happening – but something to watch.
3.Rural communities (assuming they were loyal to the former government) mobilise and match on the cities without any leadership. This requires some outrage apart from a simple coup, this is lacking right now. I also see very little news indicate the rural community is mobilising anything, but once again something to watch.
4.If a military coup, the military does not announce it will hand over power to a civilian authority, or does and fails to do so. Once again something to watch, but i see no reason for the military to do this – unless some significant opposition to the coup appears.
I am sure i have missed several other “:things to watch”, but i strongly suspect all will be well in the LOS in the future.

[Traveler1234]

FYI. The article is available for WSJ subcribers only.

Cut and pasted the entire article for all to read - go back to original post again.

Sorry about that.

[Old Thai Hand]

As I already stated yesterday, the urban elite run the show here. There will be no rural march on Bangkok in support of Taksin's return. They don't have the leadership, organization, power or the money to do so. I would also suspect that when it became evident yesterday that the military were firmly in control, that Taksin's rural support began to melt away. I'm sure by now they've all adopted a "mai pen rai" attitude.

Not that I give a shit whether they erradicate prostitution or not...But, since it seems to be an obvious concern of this board, I think that the statement that they have a few things more important to think about than closing down NEP is quite true.

Anyway, here is one very important fact. The Indian family that owns NEP (in fact only the building) are quite powerful and very close to the Royal family. The land on which NEP sits is Royal Household Bureau land which is currently leased by the Indian family that owns NEP. The only way that NEP will ever close is if the Indian family decide to do something else with their lease or if the Royal Household Bureau decides to negate the lease (which they can do anytime they want) and do something with the land. A good portion of the land on Nana soi 4 is owned by the Royal Household Bureau. So, nothing their is really secure. But, it's obviously a huge cash cow. So, nothing there is going to disappear anytime soon.

Soi Cowboy is another story. I have said it before and I'll say it again. It's days are numbered. It may have a couple of years left. But, it will be gone eventually.

[PosterLion]

Here's a photo sampling from today's English language rags.

Enjoy! :)

[Old Thai Hand]

Suan Dusit's poll shows 84% support coup

Approximately 84 per cent of Thais support Tuesday's military coup, according to the poll conducted by Suan Dusit Rajabhat University.

The poll showed that 82 per cent of Bangkok residents, and 86 per cent of residents in rural areas supported the coup as they believe it end political / social tension and is a positive step for Thai politics.

The poll contradicted the widespread belief that people in rural areas support Thaksin. About 16 per cent of Thais disagreed with the coup, citing adverse impact on Thailand's image in the international communities and weaken investors' confidence. About 75 per cent hopes Thai politics will improve following the coup, while about 20 per cent sees no change in political developments.

[Brotherrabitt]

News Analysis: After coup, Thailand left in a dangerous limbo


BANGKOK The generals billed it as a pro-democracy military coup, and although they had ousted one of the most popular prime ministers in Thailand's history, most commentators here Wednesday tended to agree.

During Tuesday night, top military commanders deposed Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra in a nonviolent coup while he was in New York, concluding a debilitating political standoff that was increasingly dividing the country.

On Wednesday, the coup's leader, General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, said that he had acted "to bring back normalcy and harmony" and that he intended to "return power to the Thai people as soon as possible."

That, in so many words, was the hope of Thailand's elite, who had accused Thaksin of corruption and of destroying democratic institutions, even as he continued to enjoy the overwhelming support of rural voters, who had given him Thailand's first outright majority in Parliament.

But whatever the hopes and intentions, Thailand is in a dangerous limbo as the generals work to consolidate control in a fragmented political field and Thaksin, now with his family in London, considers his next moves.

And one more Southeast Asian nation has reinterpreted democracy in undemocratic terms, either manipulating or sidestepping constitutional processes to achieve political ends.

"The crisis in the immediate term has been resolved," said Thitinan Pongsudhirak, director of the Institute of Security and International Studies at Chulalongkorn University.

"Thaksin is out of the picture for now," he said. "We can move forward with political reforms. But in the medium and longer term he is still around and his supporters are still around. We have been put back at Square 1. We've got to get out of this vicious cycle of constitution, election, corruption and coup."

It had seemed that Thailand had left behind its long era of repeated coups, slowly consolidating constitutional rule over the past 15 years. Sonthi himself said in March, "Military coups are a thing of the past."

Now both Thailand and the Philippines, the region's two exemplars of democracy, have removed democratically elected leaders in coups that followed popular uprisings.

Other Southeast Asian nations are ruled with varying degrees of authoritarianism, while staying close to the rules of the democratic playbook.

In a turnaround, it is Indonesia that has the most thoroughgoing, though fragile, democracy, following 32 years of dictatorship under Suharto, who was ousted in 1998.

Each nation argues that its adaptations of democracy are necessary responses to local conditions. Singapore, for example, points to its precarious position as a tiny, mainly Chinese nation squeezed between two much larger Malay neighbors, and to the combustible mix of a multiethnic population.

Myanmar, the former Burma, says it must maintain its repressive military rule to keep ethnic tensions from bursting into civil war. But it is nevertheless going through the motions of democratic process, with plans to reopen a constitutional convention next month.

Vietnam and Laos are thoroughly communist nations, following what they call the democratic structures of regular parliamentary votes and five- year plans.

The Philippines, like Thailand, has argued that democratic processes had broken down when President Joseph Estrada was facing impeachment on corruption charges

and that only the military could clean house and set the country back on course. The military turned against Estrada, clearing the way for his successor, President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo.

Calling the coup Tuesday a hiccup, Kavi Chongkittavorn, a political commentator at The Nation newspaper, said, "It was a necessary evil, if you look at it. There were no other options to end this political cul-de-sac."

But he conceded: "It is a contradiction in terms to have a military coup that calls for political reform. That's the dilemma."

The Asian Center for Human Rights, an independent monitoring group, raised the obvious objection in a statement Wednesday.

"If the latest coup d'état in Thailand is justified, similar military interventions in a situation of political flux such as in Mexico will also be justified," it said. "The coup d'état in Thailand is a threat to democracy all over the world."

On Wednesday, Sonthi offered both good news and bad news for those who seek a quick return to democratic rule.

He said he would choose an interim civilian prime minister within two weeks and then, "We step out." But he said that interim government would have the task of drawing up a new Constitution, putting it to a referendum, and then holding parliamentary elections, a process that would take more than a year.

Surin Pitsuwan, a former foreign minister of Thailand, said: "The foundation of the state has been shaken to its core during the last five to six years, so with or without a military coup it would have taken a long time to heal and to be re-established.

"But now that it is here, which is regrettable, we have to make the best out of the circumstances. That would mean trying to play a role in the drafting of the constitution and trying to make sure that the interim period will be as short as possible."

By that time, Thailand's political scene will have changed in unpredictable ways, analysts said.

They said Thaksin himself was unlikely to return to Thailand in the near future, where he could face lawsuits, trial and even prison on various charges of corruption.

One effect of his five years of overwhelming dominance, though, is the absence of any obvious alternative. The main opposition party, the Democrat Party, has been notable in its inability to capitalize on Thaksin's difficulties.

A main task of the interim government will be to heal the rifts that Thaksin has created, avoiding vendettas that could devolve into what Thitinan, of the Institute of Security and International Studies, called "an endless revenge and recrimination cycle."

There is also an urgent need to address a spreading separatist insurgency in the largely Muslim south of the country, where at

least 1,500 people have been killed since January 2004.

Experts attribute much of the growth in violence to Thaksin's no-compromise, militarized policies.

Sonthi, himself a Muslim, has clashed with Thaksin over the handling of the conflict. He recently proposed negotiations with the separatists, and the change in government could lead to a more successful counterinsurgency.

At the same time, Thitinan said, new governments should embrace one of

Thaksin's positive legacies, a focus on the needs of the poor, with programs like village development funds, debt forgiveness and low-cost health care.

These populist measures, however calculating and paternalistic, did address long-neglected needs of the majority of the population.

"He did have a positive legacy with the grass roots," Thitinan said. "The mistake will be to reject everything Thaksin did."

[Dorman]

I am about to transfer a sizable sum of cash from the US to Indonesia and given the nature of things here I don't want to do so too soon. The Thai Baht is a good bellweather currency for SE Asia and indeed its problems caused the Rupiah to go into meltdown in '98, so naturally I'm keeping a close eye on things.

I'd appreciate help finding a "real-time" currency exchange site, all the ones I've found only give current prices at previous close of business without recent history or the ones that give a progress chart are usually out of date.

Does anyone have any recommendations? I can't be arsed subscribing so a free service would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Yi Ren]

<...>I'd appreciate help finding a "real-time" currency exchange site, all the ones I've found only give current prices at previous close of business without recent history or the ones that give a progress chart are usually out of date.

Does anyone have any recommendations? I can't be arsed subscribing so a free service would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Two I've used are www.oanda.com and www.forex-markets.com

Cheers,
-Y

[Tiger 888]

Two I've used are www.oanda.com and www.forex-markets.com

Cheers,
-YGo to www.fxtrade.oanda.com and sign up for a gaming acount(at no cost). Then log in and you can see charts with history up to about 1 year back and realtime updates as fast as 5 seconds.

[CBGBConnisur]

I am assuming that traveling to Thailand is currently not advised at this time?

[Yi Ren]

I am assuming that traveling to Thailand is currently not advised at this time?
I *never* advise traveling to Thailand - unless you want to experience cheap kick-ass beer, willing women and tropical climates.

Seriously, lots of news on travel, and it appears few cancellations, but I will qualify my impression with my limited Thai language skills. I don't see anything to indicate now is a worse time than others - actually, quite the contrary: it's still low season, the baht has just taken a downturn, and the police are somewhat pre-occupied with other matters.

Besides, I don't have travel to get here. :)

Cheers,
-Y

[Jetmech322]

I wish to thank scbastian my and vandalnn for their insiteful posts, I have read them and they seem to make alot of sense to me. I do hope that everything works out, and things return to normal soon, as I plan to return to Thailand in January 2007.

To Seydlitz, I must point out to you, and maybe it was my fault for not being clear in my last post, that I was talking about the future of the country of Thailand and it's people. Also I was refering to the growing muslim insergency in the south of Thailand, and also the recient bombings there. There have also been recient car bombings in BKK also. Of course! I realize that Thailand "NOW" has only a small percentage of muslims in thier population, mostly in the south region. What I was refering to is my growing concern of muslim radical violence in this area of the world.

Sir, I must tell you that I didn't just fall off the turnup truck yesterday, and I have been lucky in my life to have visited many places in the world as an civilian and military. I was speaking from my own experiances, and of things I have seen with my own two eyes, -Things that I won't go into here. So I appoligize for my ignorance of the thai culture and history, but sir I know evil when I see it. I know what it smells like, tastes like, and looks like.

Again maybe I'm wrong about this situation? I hope you are right and I am wrong, and I will be the first to admit it if this be the case.

Thx again to all for your opinions,

Jetmech322

[Retired Army]

Given the current political situation, and if demamd drops, it will be interesting to see if Thai Airways begins to offer some special fares.

[Meaty]

I am about to transfer a sizable sum of cash.... ...I can't be arsed....
you obviously can't be arsed to type "currency converter" into Google either, the first 2 results offer live currency exchange for free....unfortunately I can't be arsed to post the link for you.

[Meaty]

...The polls express widespread support...
Would they be the polls being run by the local media groups ? The same media groups that are currently under military control and cencorship ?
So if we tell the people that the majority support us, the ones that don't will take the Mai Bpen Rai attitude and go with it for the good of the country.

Last night just before 7pm all Thai channels (except channel 11) were interupted with a screen showing the Thai flag, then a spokesperson gave a statement - basically saying that HRH The King had endorsed Gen Sonthi. My wife looked at me puzzled, i said thats good isn't it, she said "why the King not tell us, why the King not on TV, why somebody else tell us what the King say ? When have problem the King always speak himself on the TV, why we not see the King ?" Good point i thought. If the said statement had not been made, i feel this entire situation could be a lot worse.

Last night 9pm, UBC was working fine and had been for several hours, but switched over to the BBC and watched some news about Japan and then Thailand came on and shock horror, the report on the BBC about the events in Thailand was blocked, i switched to CNN, they were just starting onto Thailand and then that too was blocked. Immediately after the Thai report the news program was let through again - So basically the only news Thai people are allowed to see about Thailand is the news thats controlled by the military coup leaders.

Despite the above i totally agree that the people are continueing about there business, it is business as usual.

[Peter Eastwest]

I heard a spokesman for the new regime on the news tonight saying that they were "planning to hold elections very soon"....

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=53280

I see they have started already? :) (Or have I misunderstood the accent?)


Pete

[Prince Harry]

Suan Dusit's poll shows 84% support coup

Approximately 84 per cent of Thais support Tuesday's military coup, according to the poll conducted by Suan Dusit Rajabhat University.

The poll showed that 82 per cent of Bangkok residents, and 86 per cent of residents in rural areas supported the coup as they believe it end political / social tension and is a positive step for Thai politics.

The poll contradicted the widespread belief that people in rural areas support Thaksin. About 16 per cent of Thais disagreed with the coup, citing adverse impact on Thailand's image in the international communities and weaken investors' confidence. About 75 per cent hopes Thai politics will improve following the coup, while about 20 per cent sees no change in political developments.The Thai national slogan should be Coups R US.

Usually bloodless the 1985 coup resulted in the death of australian vietnam hero journo Neil Davis-he was shot by a tank.

[Traveler1234]

Today's two articles from WSJ, this time in pdf format to down and read.

[Woxi53]

"I heard a spokesman for the new regime on the news tonight saying that they were "planning to hold elections very soon".

Well, the pronouncation is sometimes giving missunderstandings.

He actually sad , that he was planning to have an election very soon ... ;-))

[Traveler1234]

September 21, 2006
Thaksin Says He'll Take 'Deserved Rest'
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


Filed at 9:08 a.m. ET

LONDON (AP) -- Ousted Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said Thursday he would take a ''deserved rest,'' and urged the military leaders of the country to quickly arrange for new national elections.

In a statement handed by an aide to reporters in London, Thaksin urged ''all parties to find ways and means to reconcile and work toward national reconciliation for the sake of our king and country.''

The statement said he was planning to work on research and development and possible charitable work for the country.

Thaksin arrived Wednesday in London from New York, and was staying at the Dorchester Hotel. The statement did not say whether he intended to make London his new base.

''The event in Thailand during the past two days should not detract from my main aim of national reconciliation,'' Thaksin said. The statement was issued in the name of the Dr. Thaksin Secretariat.

At midday, Thaksin was met by a swarm of reporters and photographers outside the hotel.

Asked what he was doing in London, he replied: ''The press release is already out.''

Another reporter ask when he was going back to Thailand.

''It is according to the press release,'' Thaksin said.

Heading toward a minibus, Thaksin disclosed that ''I am going to buy some groceries.''


Sounds like the man has the right priorities - let's all eat, drink and be merry:)

[Yi Ren]

Sounds like the man has the right priorities - let's all eat, drink and be merry:)
Seems odd that he's staying in a hotel, when he has a (reportedly luxurious) digs in London. Of course, maybe he's trying to draw attention away from the rest of the family...

Cheers,
-Y

[Catmonger]

Has the King appeared on TV himself to endorse the coup? Meaty's wife's statement made a lightbuld go off for me on that. But it may be the kind of thing that the King doesn't want to involve the throne in, at least not now with how smooth things are going. He may be saving that card in case Thai people start getting hurt.

And I do hope the King preserves the Royal influence. I seems from events lately that the more 'checks' on power, the better. Very healthy in capitalist democracy.

[Martians]

The Thai national slogan should be Coups R US. Usually bloodless the 1985 coup resulted in the death of australian vietnam hero journo Neil Davis-he was shot by a tank.Harry: I am glad to see William is joining the same regiment. Glad to see you have a fine sense of humour too. Shooting the Aussie with a tank was kinda cool. Let's hope the tanks leave Bkk's higher sois alone or we might be forced away from ISG and into regular news services.

Serves Thaksin right for trying to buy Liverpool FC. Maybe Bolton would have been more his thing;) No harm to put a stop on the march of the Chinese in Thailand anyway. Good luck to the military.

[Tiger 888]

... No harm to put a stop on the march of the Chinese in Thailand anyway...Sure lets stop the only ones left who work and Thailand will be heaven.


...capitalist democracy...Isn't it democratatorship. Can't they do what thy want in an elected period?

[Meaty]

by: Thanong Khanthong - The Nation

Had Council for Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy (CDRM) leader General Sonthi Boonyaratglin not moved as fast as he did to stage a coup on Tuesday, Thaksin Shinawatra would have launched his own coup a day later. Don't be fooled by Thaksin's claim that he stands for democracy.

As the political crisis developed to the point of no return concerning whether Thaksin should stay or be booted out, General Sonthi had no choice but to swallow his words about the days of military coups being over. He had been very reluctant to resort to a coup, as he was known not to have any political ambitions. Moreover, he was not known to be an enemy of Thaksin. Although General Sonthi has a good relationship with both Privy Council President General Prem Tinsulanonda and Privy Council member General Surayuth Chulanont, he came to power partly due to a political compromise struck with Thaksin.

However, an intelligence report reached General Sonthi's camp stating that there would be bloodshed on Wednesday. The People's Alliance for Democracy had planned to hold a political rally that day at the Royal Plaza in order to force Thaksin out of politics. Had that rally taken place, there would have been clashes between the People's Alliance for Democracy and Thaksin's supporters and blood would have been spilt on Rajdamnoen Avenue. If only Thaksin had promised that he would take a break from politics and allow a period of political reforms to take place, the PAD and other branches of the anti-Thaksin movement would have declared victory. All political confrontations would have subsided. Thaksin could have run for office once the Constitution was amended, and he would have been returned to the premier's post, probably in the latter part of next year.

However, Thaksin never considered taking a break from power. Again, don't be fooled by his "taking a break" story - the idea never crossed his mind.

The General Sonthi camp learned that during the PAD rally, Yongyuth Tiyapairat and Newin Chidchob were planning to rally their supporters to create an ugly scene at the Royal Plaza. During the ensuing commotion, there would be human casualties. Thaksin would then have stepped in and declared a state of emergency, placing the country under martial law.

Now you can understand why he had time to prepare his state of emergency statement and read it at 9.20pm on Channel 9 from his New York hotel room. You can also understand why Yongyuth and Newin are now at the top of this country's most-wanted list and have surrendered themselves to the CDRM for interrogation.

Once the situation was under his complete control, Thaksin had planned to fly back yesterday in order to declare victory over anti-democratic elements in society. He had a military reshuffle list in hand that would have further consolidated his control over the military. With that accomplished, everything would have been easy. Virtually all institutions in the country would have been under his directive.

From his New York hotel, Thaksin was preparing to deliver an address at the UN Assembly. The room instead turned out to be the headquarters from which he attempted to launch a counter-coup and negotiate a political settlement. In New York, he planned to recruit top-notch American political consultants to advise him on his political campaign for the next election, which would have been pushed back from October 15 to some time in November.

Thaksin's talk of taking a break from politics was simply lip service. He told the Thai public he would decide whether to take a break from politics only after his Thai Rak Thai went to the Election Commission to register as candidates. This means Thaksin would have liked His Majesty the King to endorse a new election date before he made his decision.

Members of the Thai elite and the PAD, however, would not allow this to happen. If Thaksin were to run in the next election, he would have won. With 12 million votes or so, he would have claimed a democratic majority and he also would have stayed on as prime minister. After that he could rewrite Thai history by turning Thailand into his own regime.

General Sonthi had to act fast to head off Thaksin's coup. He staged a military coup on Tuesday, a day before the bloodshed was set to take place. He and Thaksin did have a telephone conversation on Tuesday evening, with Thaksin trying to buy time and negotiate a settlement.

He told General Sonthi that if he kept his cool, Thaksin would take a break from politics. He asked Sonthi to wait until he returned from New York so that the two could talk things out and said that he would reschedule his return flight to Bangkok to Wednesday, instead of yesterday as he had planned.

General Sonthi was polite, but told him that he had no choice, that he had to stage the coup.

In the meantime, Thaksin was checking on his military allies, who had control of Bangkok, for the most part. He remained certain that in a military power play, he could still emerge the victor. Maj-General Prin Suwannathat, commander of the First Infantry Brigade, is a close ally of Thaksin and he holds the most powerful military post in Bangkok. The commanders of the Air Force and the Navy are also good friends of Thaksin.

General Sonthi had the support of Lt-General Saphrang Kalayanamit of the Third Army, who had been outspoken in his anti-Thaksin remarks. The Third Army is in charge of all military operations in the North. Another key ally of Gen Sonthi is Lt-General Anupong Phaochinda of the First Infantry Division in Bangkok. Maj-General Sanit Prommas, the commander of the Second Cavalry Brigade, also came to play an important role in the power play to seize the capital.

Troops from Prachin Buri and Lop Buri were also mobilised to the capital to assist in the coup, the decisive outcome of which was ironically the victory of thaharn ban nok (upcountry military).

As it turned out, all of Thaksin's military allies, most notably Maj-General Prin, had been marked out - they could not move. General Ruengroj Mahasaranont, the supreme commander and a Thaksin ally, was to look after Bangkok once Thaksin had declared martial law. He too was subdued. Chidchai Vanasatidya and Prommin Lertsuridej were unable to launch any sort of counter effort.

Thaksin's wife Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra was supposed to take a 12am flight to Singapore on Tuesday night. She quickly changed her flight to 9pm. Well, Gen Sonthi had to let her off the hook.

Twenty-five minutes later, knowing that his wife was safely on an aircraft bound for Singapore, Thaksin read out his state of emergency address from his New York hotel room, effectively sacking General Sonthi .

But an hour later, General Sonthi declared a counter-coup to overthrow the Thaksin regime and tear up the Constitution.

The rest is history.

--The Nation 2006-09-22

[Meaty]

The below message was on another Thai forum, Jackson and fellow brothers, not sure how this affects this forum, but wanted to mention it.

NOTE TO OUR MEMBERS:

All media was today 2006-09-21 ordered by ICT to exercise censorship of any news critical of the coup-makers and the new military regime. Offenders face up to six months in jail, a fine of up to Bt10,000, or both.

This also prohibit xxxxx to publish such content. We kindly ask our members to refrain from posting sensitive political content. We reserve the rights to delete content that could be dangerous for the operation of our website. We have to do a bit of self-censorship here so we don't get into trouble. Thanks for your understanding.
Admin

[Giotto]

Rumours, rumours, rumours, since the coup started. I never listened to so many rumours within 48 hours. Two of the rumours were serious: “They fight in Siam Square”, the street vendor told one of my staff late Tuesday night, when he bought some food. Not a single word true. And then on Wednesday afternoon the rumours about troops movements towards Bangkok, tanks and trucks with soldiers, and nobody knew whether that were coup friendly army parts or whether they were on their way to support the [ex]-government (which is btw. unclear up to today). That was not so funny at all – but it turned out that the Generals had the situation under control.


Most Peaceful Coup in Thai History

The most peaceful coup in Thai history has taken place. The executive power of Thailand was taken over by a group of Generals headed by Gen. Sonthi. No gunshot fired, nobody got hurt. And how professional it was organized within an extreme short time is released to the public step by step now. Only a small group of men knew all details about it, but amongst then Gen. Prem, president of the Privy Council (!). Gen. Prem is one of the most respected men in Thailand, and very close to His Majesty the King of Thailand. And if he knew then His Majesty the King knew too.

Gen. Sonthi, also being known to be close to His Majesty The King of Thailand, formed a Council for Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy (CDRM). Ever since the CDRM was established it publishes announcements with the measures taken. All measures taken up to now a moderate, logical and do not show any critical impact on the personal freedom of the individuals living here in Thailand.

On Wednesday night around 7 pm the statement was read in most of the Thai TV channels that His Majesty the King had endorsed Gen. Sonthi as leader of the CDRM. For most Thai people this announcement eased the tension. This was a highly appreciated signal necessary for all people and foreigners living here in Thailand. The King did not object the coup, he now strengthened the position of the CDRM. Nobody then needs to know the reasons for that, just the fact counts. There is nobody in this world respected and loved like His Majesty The King of Thailand is by his people.

Some were a bit worried that His Majesty The King of Thailand did not publicly announce this endorsement in the TV. But pictures of the audience of Gen. Sonthi and Privy Council President Gen. Prem with His Majesty the King were published, and most of the Thai people relaxed.


Why Now ?

The first question I asked myself was why the military leaders choose this time to act. Rumours about a possible coup were discussed in Thailand since months, and nobody really believed any more that it would take place. Elections scheduled for October, and the Election Committee (EC) now established – everything seamed to be on the right way to proceed with democratic means to overcome the crisis. This thought scared me most – why now? Why so late? I first thought that this was a serious military act to gain back power and eradicate democracy in Thailand.

I realized that this was the key question to evaluate the coup. The way the CDRM acted after the coup helped me to understand, step by step.

Thais have a strong desire to live together in harmony. The actual political situation divides the country into two large groups; the Thaksin supporters, basically from the rural areas in the north, and the Thaksin critics around the Peoples Alliance for Democracy ( PAD, which btw. dissolved itself yesterday). The confrontation between both groups did not become really violent up to now, except from some minor incidents of the past, but there were signs that things could escalate.

The question for the military must have been, whether this conflict could be resolved by the upcoming elections, whatever the result would be. And in their discussion they must have come to the result, that this would not be the case. Whatever result there was possible, the conflicts between both groups would remain and escalate.

Basically there were three possible projections for that election:

- Thaksin would stay candidate for his Thai Rak Thai party and win the elections
- Thai Rak Thai would win with another candidate for the PM office, but Thaksin would stay the strong man in the background
- The Democratic Party would win the elections

All three options obviously did not convince those Generals as being sufficient to re-establish political order and harmony in Thailand. The first two options anyway not, because the old [corrupt] government would stay in place, and the third option seamed to be too weak to build the future of the country on. The democrats did a real lousy job as opposition party during this crisis, and they are responsible for a good share of the actual political deadlock situation here in Thailand.

And there are right now upcoming news about a possibly completely different history of events of this coup:

The PAD had planned a major demonstration at the Royal Plaza for Wednesday. Gen. Sonthi is said to have received an intelligence report that Thaksins main friends and advisors had planned to move their supporters towards that demonstration to create some clashes. There was the option of bloodshed – which afterwards would have given Thaksin the option to declare the state of emergency and place the country under martial law. Afterwards he could eliminate his last remaining critics in the army and the police – and control the complete country.

If this is true Gen. Sonthi had no choice, he had to act, and he had to act fast. His coup is not even a coup then – it is a counter-coup the prevent the country from Thaksins possible dictatorship.


The Thai Way of Solving Problems

How many times did we talk already about losing face, and again this Asian phenomenon plays a major role in this political game, too. There was no way out for anybody any more, without losing face. Thaksin could not simply resign any more, after he took a break from politics for 7 weeks earlier this year already and then returned to office. The PAD had declared that they would not step back from demonstrating against the government until Thaksin resigns. The political crises had developed to the point of no return.

But – what is much more important is that His Majesty The King of Thailand was involved. He had intervened with his statements regarding the elections from April this year, and therefore initiated that those elections were found to be undemocratic and were nullified thereafter. Since then His Majesty The King of Thailand was involved, and he had given the guideline to the people of Thailand to resolve the crisis with democratic means within the actual constitution.

But – that turned out to not work too well. Problems everywhere, in the justice system, establishing an new Election committee, further corrupt government actions – the people obviously got the message from the king, but there were not able to move far enough to solve the problem that way he had preferred.

There was the danger that the approach of His Majesty The King of Thailand would fail, the conflict could not be resolved with democratic means - and His Majesty The King of Thailand would lose face then!!! And this is absolutely unthinkable here in Thailand!

For that the military decided to act – they are used to be the "bad boys" since Thailand changed to be a constitutional monarchy 74 years ago. Their solution of taking over power, doing adjustments on the constitution, giving the country a break to calm down and schedule new elections for next year – that was the only solution in which nobody of the players would lose face. And for that simple reason this option was acceptable for all parties.


A Faked Coup?

I talked to many Thai people during the past few days. Many even higher educated people think that all this is a complete setup, and everything is pre-arranged and agreed upon of all major groups of the political landscape here in Thailand.

There are now numerous hints upcoming that the coup was prepared and organized already weeks ago, and detailed measures were taken to limit its impact. Some examples:

- Some parts of the police I know got the advice approx. 5 days before the coup the order to stay in their barracks and offices on Tuesday night
- Many Kindergartens and Schools announced on Friday last week (4 days before the Coup) that they would be closed Wednesday to Friday this week for different reasons (construction work, disinfection of rooms etc. etc. )
- An international conference about Cambodia (meeting of 200 people) announced on MONDAY that the conference would not start as planned on Wednesday but today, postponed for two days
- Most of the cabinet members were not in Bangkok
- and, and, and…

I personally don’t believe that it was a COMPLETE setup, but most of it was pre-arranged, and many people also in the political and private areas knew and were prepared. We know today, that the Wednesday was really critical, with possibly Thaksin friendly army parts moving towards Bangkok. That might have been an isolated action from some commanders, who were not informed before. But it is very likely that all major fractions were informed and agreed or accepted this Thai solution as the best way out of the crisis.


Risks

After the clever moves of Gen. Sonthi in the beginning of the coup ex-PM Thaksin lost nearly all his support in the army and the police. He had installed his classmates and friends in important positions everywhere, but in the time of the crisis they were more loyal to each other than to him. Several of Thaksins supporters immediately changed sides when they realized how well organized and powerful the ongoing coup was, and that resistance was no real choice.

Thaksin stays in London in the moment. Will he take the risk to return to Thailand? I doubt that in the moment. The signal from the coup leader is one of the wonderful Thai messages. Thaksin and other members of the cabinet were a Thai citizens and very welcome to return to Thailand any time, but they would be treated according to the law (!). I think I don't have to explain what that means.

Only if Thaksin returns he could mobilize his supporters from the rural areas in the North/North-East. Most of those people are farmers and/or very poor; they need financial support, if they want to go to the capital to demonstrate support for the ex-government. We Thai residents remember the so-called "THB 500,00 banknote supporters" from the huge demonstrations earlier this year! Without this financial support only a very small number can be mobilized.

To organize this financial support Thaksin needs to have access to his specific infrastructure (companies, accounts, government agencies, TRT offices) and he needs to be in Thailand. I doubt that he still has access to the infrastructure he needs to create “resistance”. And I also doubt that he will take the risk to return to Thailand.

Yes, and of course there is the option that the Generals will stay in power for longer, and that the democracy in Thailand is set back for years. Some of the members of the CDRM are still close friends of ex-PM Thaksin. But – based in the impression of the the way the coup was performed and the news I have – I don’t believe it. I strongly believe that this Generals will do what they say, and return the power to the people as fast as possible, to the benefit of Thailand.


Religious Apects

Gen. Sonthi is muslim, in the moment in charge of a Buddhist country. The only thing to say is that this will help to solve the problems in the South. I don't expect any further inpact by his religion than a positive one to the South.


International Criticism

The reactions from foreign countries were as expected. Critical voices, The United States declares to be “disappointed” – and everybody calls for a return to democracy as fast as possible. Of course I also don’t like armies to get involved into political affairs, but I grew up in a stabile western democracy, too.

It is easy for us to judge about this if we measure this event with the ruler of our own stabile western democracies. What is forgotten in all the statements is a detailed analysis of the real political situation here in Thailand, and the fact that this is a relatively young democracy which still tries to find its own right way for this Thai society. I read somewhere the term “a country with a 74 year on-and-off democracy”.

A good example for a strange judgement of this real interior affair of Thailand came from the British Government. The country was not about military attempts to overthrow the government. Thailand should return to democracy without delay. The interesting part of the declaration came then: Elections for October/November were already scheduled before the coup, and those elections should take place! Obviously the British diplomats did not take too much time for their analysis of the situation, otherwise they should have developed the idea, that there must be a reason for performing the coup right now even if the elections are already scheduled, and that there will be no way for the CDRM to proceed with the actual election plans. That statement looks very unprofessional for me.

Impressive was also the statement from the Indonesian government (!). They were shocked by the developments in Thailand, and expect the country to return to the path of democracy immediately. Isn’t that amazing, that even countries, which can hardly spell the word “democracy” are fast with good advices right now?


The Markets

As usual the markets evaluated the development much more realistic and calm than the foreign governments. The THB fell 1.3 % on Wednesday against the US $ (37.235 to 37.380) before recovering yesterday around 1 % (37.775 to 37.380). The stock market opened 30 points lower yesterday, but recovered within the session 2/3 if it to close only 10 points lower. Record turnover for the last 5 month, THB 43 billon, the main losers basically those companies owned by the Thaksin family.

And now it comes: the foreigners were seen as bargain hunters yesterday, net buyers of THB 7.4 billion, what means that foreigners or foreign investment funds bought stocks for THB 7.4 billion more that they sold! No panic at all, buying activities. That was the best news yesterday!

It seams that the economy and mainly investors have a more realistic impression about what is going on in Thailand, and give this generals credit.


Prostitution on the Agenda

To be honest, I don’t care whether the new strong men of Thailand have prostitution on their agenda, but I doubt it. They have by far more important issues to take care of:

- to appoint a competent interim government
- to find the right people to draft a new constitution for democratic reforms
- to setup the proper infrastructure for future elections
- to take care of the problems in the South
- to proceed and ensure a steady foreign policy to support foreign investments and stabilize tourism
- to limit the impact of the coup on the local economy
- and, and, and

But if they put this issue to their agenda I would respect them even more. In a country with [at least] one million prostitutes [most likely more] this issue should be on the agenda of each government. Many of you are fathers of daughters, and I doubt that anybody would like to see his own daughter participating in this business, for whatever reason. Whether being forced by economical problems, unemployment and missing jobs in rural areas, illness of the family or because going for the easy way of making money – is that really important?

This issue should be on the agenda of decent politicians, and different from former governments the cause of the problem should be targeted, not the effect. The effect are bars and other entertainment venues, which can be closed earlier, in many ways restricted or stronger controlled – but nothing will change despite the technical way the transaction will take place. The root is the poverty in the rural areas, in the north and very south of Thailand. If the education system will be improved and jobs and more economical wealth is generated in those areas the prostitution will retreat, because people then have alternatives, and many young women will then refrain from parttaking in that oldest business of the world.

But – there is a long way to go to get there.


The Future

After days of discussing the issue with various people from different countries I see it now as easy as that: I am willing to give General Sonthi credit. The way he acted up to now was professional, responsible and to the benefit of the Thai people. I expect that he will exactly do what he announced, and that Thailand will receive a new constitution and return to democracy within the next 12 months.



Giotto
(your political commentator in Bangkok, now resigning from his job and trying to proceed learning how to run a hotel :))

[Giotto]

A Web board which invites netizens to post comments on the coup has been shut down, its founder said Friday.

Sombat Ngamboon-anong, who registered the xxxxxxxx, said he had been informed by the hosting service provider that the Web site had been closed at the order of Information and Communications Technology.

The Nation

[Giotto]

Gen Sonthi Boonyaratglin Friday entered a ceremony to officially receive His Majesty's the King's endorsement of his leadership as leader of the Council for Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy (CDRM).


In a ceremony broadcast on TV pool, Army Commander in Chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratglin stood before a shrine to HM the King while Adjutant Generals Department's Adjutant Maj Gen Manote Premwongsiri read out the Royal Order.


"Gen Sonthi informed HM the King that Thaksin Shinawatra as the prime minister severe division within the nation and destroyed national unity. This is something that has never happened in the country's history," according to the order as it was read out.


Most people believes that his administration was plagued with irregularies and corruption. Political interventions on independent bodies were rampant under Thaksin's watch. These interventions have created conflict and division. Many parties have tried but failed to accommodate the matters.


Therefore, the armed forces, police and civilian have decided to seize advministrative power under the leadership of General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the head of the Council of Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy.


For the sake of peace and national unity, HM the King has issued the Royal Order for General Sonthi as the leader of the Council of Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy.

We urged the public to remain clam and we asked that all government civil servants support General Sonthi Boonyaratglin.

In white uniform, Sonthi -- flanked by other officers -- kneeled and bowed before a portrait of the king above the flower-bedecked shrine.

Analysts say royal support for the coup is the main reason why there has been no violence. Soldiers patrolling the streets have tied yellow ribbons on their weapons out of respect for the king.


In white dress uniform, Sonthi -- flanked by other officers -- kneeled and bowed before a portrait of the king above the flower-bedecked shrine.


The Nation

...

It does not look so good for Mr. Thaksin in the moment :) !


Giotto

[Old Thai Hand]

I had lunch today at The Bangkok Club, that retro hang-out for all the nobs and power-brokers of Bangkok's elite. Why was I there? Because my boss is a member, being that her late father was a General...a popular rank these days.

It was however strangely empty. You could have fired a canon and...oh, I guess not a good image...

Anyway, except for the odd Thanpuying with her big, blue hair and yellow duds, the place was mostly devoid of the usual suspects. There's nothing like a coup to clear a room. I guess people couldn't make it for lunch either because they're under house arrest or having a rest in London.

But, there were some interesting new characters in the buffet line; nothing like a few days of k-rations while overthrowing a despot to wet a general's appetite. So, there I was jockeying for position to load up on ribs and taters with guys with more glitter on their chests than a Katoey in a Cabaret show.

Nothing like a man in uniform...the new fashion look of the HiSo crowd. Very obviously, there's a new sherrif in town.

[Taiwan Laowai]

Giotto,

Thank you for such a excellent and easy to read 'on the ground analysis' of the situation. What you say is backed by facts and common sense logic. And I find your report more credible than what I have read from most of the so-called professionals working for the global media and financial organisations even though a lot of them have some locally based employees. I sure hope you are right.

I'm still amazed that a sex board has proved to be my single best and most timely source information and analysis about a major political event.


Rumours, rumours, rumours, since the coup started.........

................After days of discussing the issue with various people from different countries I see it now as easy as that: I am willing to give this General Sonthi credit. The way he acted up to now was professional, responsible and to the benefit of the Thai people. I expect that he will exactly do what he announced, and that Thailand will receive a new constitution and return to democracy within the next 12 months.

Giotto
(your political commentator in Bangkok, now resigning from his job and trying to proceed learning how to run a hotel :))

[Dinghy]

The below message was on another Thai forum, Jackson and fellow brothers, not sure how this affects this forum, but wanted to mention it.

NOTE TO OUR MEMBERS:

All media was today 2006-09-21 ordered by ICT to exercise censorship of any news critical of the coup-makers and the new military regime. Offenders face up to six months in jail, a fine of up to Bt10,000, or both.

This also prohibit xxxxx to publish such content. We kindly ask our members to refrain from posting sensitive political content. We reserve the rights to delete content that could be dangerous for the operation of our website. We have to do a bit of self-censorship here so we don't get into trouble. Thanks for your understanding.
Admin


Those of you who LIVE there have a lot more input (as well as more to lose) than the farang from "outside" Naturally, many of us (particularly those with "short fuzes" to arriving - myself, it's 10/9) want as much knowledge as possible in order to be "well informed". As to the "politics". though, I'll know what folks think after I talk to some of the ex-pat THAI around here. Why be critical - it won't "help" and MOST of us have only a "passing knowledge" of the situation. My sole regret is that the bhat isn't dropping just a "wee bit" to the 40:1 level with $$.


OTH - and the new sheriff has lots of "deputy wannabees"

[Terry Terrier]

The PAD had planned a major demonstration at the Royal Plaza for Wednesday. Gen. Sonthi is said to have received an intelligence report that Thaksins main friends and advisors had planned to move their supporters towards that demonstration to create some clashes. There was the option of bloodshed – which afterwards would have given Thaksin the option to declare the state of emergency and place the country under martial law. Afterwards he could eliminate his last remaining critics in the army and the police – and control the complete country.

If this is true Gen. Sonthi had no choice, he had to act, and he had to act fast. His coup is not even a coup then – it is a counter-coup the prevent the country from Thaksins possible dictatorship.

A fairly thorough run-through of this can be found in The Nation here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/09/22/opinion/opinion_30014290.php


A good example for a strange judgement of this real interior affair of Thailand came from the British Government. The country was not about military attempts to overthrow the government. Thailand should return to democracy without delay. The interesting part of the declaration came then: Elections for October/November were already scheduled before the coup, and those elections should take place! Obviously the British diplomats did not take too much time for their analysis of the situation, otherwise they should have developed the idea, that there must be a reason for performing the coup right now even if the elections are already scheduled, and that there will be no way for the CDRM to proceed with the actual election plans. That statement looks very unprofessional for me.

The British government was simply towing the official European Union line (for a change :D) :


http://www.eupolitix.com/EN/News/200609/ac76b416-9812-4690-8472-b4238b2cb9f8.htm

[Giotto]

...After all, honestly, why do you think most of your guests come to Thailand?Now I am not sure any more, but up to now I always thought they come to Thailand and Livingstone's Lodge to discuss political issues - and because they like me so much :) .


Giotto

[Giotto]

A fairly thorough run-through of this can be found in The Nation here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/09/22/opinion/opinion_30014290.php

Correct, but I have some problems with it... There are some facts mentioned in there from which we already know that they are wrong (eg. Thaksins wife never left for Singapore), and it also contains a lot of speculation instead of facts. Bangkok Post never published this news.

I simply have no other sources to decide whether this story is the real background of the coup or not.


Giotto

[Giotto]

the military ordered the new anti-corruption panel to start meeting immediately, and a senior official said the members were told to aim at seizing assets of the thaksin shinawatra family, foreign news agencies reported today.

the associated press also confirmed that mr thaksin's wife khunying pojaman, widely reported to have fled thailand in panic last tuesday night just ahead of the declaration of martial law, is safe and sound in thailand, as is the couple's only son.

radio thaiand quoted panthep klanarongran, chief of the new, nine-member national counter corruption commission, that the council of democratic reform under the constitutional monarchy (cdrm) ordered him to call the first nccc meeting on monday.

"mr panthep stated that the other eight members of nccc have been informed to attend its first unofficial meeting on the 25th of september at 10.00 hours at the office of nccc," said the report. "he admitted that he has been approached by the council of democratic reform."

mr panthep said he expected little business to be conducted. "he said the purpose of the meeting is to meet with the staff and get to know one another better."

but the ap quoted a source said to be close to the nccc that the panel intends to proceed swiftly towards seizing thaksin assets.

"we will investigate his assets and use existing laws to confirep001e them and money he gained from corruption and abuse of power," the news agency quoted a source it said was a "well-placed official who demanded anonymity because the investigation has not yet been made public."

the source continued:

"the assets and money [thaksin] had before he became prime minister will not be touched."

news reports had claimed khunying pojaman had fled to singapore, and that the couple's son panthongtae had also left the country.

instead, said cdrm spokesman, thaksin's wife and son "all have the basic right to stay and lead normal lives here. they are living in freedom and without any disturbance, control or restrictions."

khunying pojaman and a daughter were at an air force compound, under the protection of ousted interior minister kongsak wantana, a retired air force air marshal. mr panthongtae was still at the family home in bangkok.

bangkok post

...

i really like this one (bold). again such a nice and polite thai game they play. thaksin seams to have another smaller problem now.

to understand the finesse of this one has to know that politicians in public offices in thailand have to openly declare their financial status / assets before the take over their office. thaksin did this years ago, and to avoid showing all his wealth he transferred it to everybody around him incl. family, friends and even his driver (the richest driver of the world :)) !

now let's assume thaksin was poor before he started as pm - and now he is suddenly and surprisingly rich - where did all the money come from :):):) ?

well, sometimes life goes strange ways ... i love it!


giotto

[Freeler]

Coup de Grace,

What struck me last Wednesday (was it Wednesday?), was that none of the elite international *****nalists noticed the yellow ribbons. Or their importance. Do they actually get paid for knowing nothing?
Had a good laugh when the CNN reporter came up, saying everything was calm, yet turned around in terror everytime a car passed. What a loser!

Wish I was there.

[Bacwy1]

I am getting ready to move to LOS in two to three months and less than 36 hours later the coup happens. I want to thank OTH and GIOTTO for the real news about what is happening. My family and friends are all worried about me moving to LOS but I tell me that I am not at all worried and that I have and pay attention to the real news and that they should not listen to what they see on t.v. I want to thank you guys for cutting my stress level to less than half. I know that I am still worried about what might become of LOS but than I can also understand the feelings of the locals. I talked to a friend in Bangkok and she told me she was scared but felt secure at the same time. I only have one concern and that is the censorship of the media and the people. I am only worried that a cop who is looking for a payday and bribe might look at you with a group of girls and say you are talking politics and arrest you.

I know from my previose trip to Thailand that I did what people say not to do. I visited some of the bar girls houses and I felt bad for them. Having been homeless myself I felt that they didnt live much better than them than I did at that time. I will not lye, I indulge and love the sin of the flesh but I also try and put the human factor into what I do. I have been in a lot of trouble for this at work but I also have found out that by treating the locals as I want to be treated than they are much more honest and caring towards you.

I called my friends for hours after the coup because I was worried about them and I consider them my friends, I have not had one who has asked me for money. The couple that did I dropped but the one I have the most contact with has been honest and up front since I have talked to her. I have to say that no matter where people are from they/we are all the same the world over. I have to say that I would rather be normal in LOS than driving a BMW in the USA. Don't get me wrong, I love my country and would die for it and have served my country but the Thais have it right, they enjoy their lives. We work our asses off for things that dont matter and are unhappy, in Thailand I saw a lot of people who were poor but were happier than a middle class family in the west.

As far as the politics I prefer to differ to the locals who live through the day to day in LOS. My only worry is the safety, security, and well being of those that I know their. Having read the informed posts and talking to my friends I have minimal concerns about my move.

When I arrive I would love to purchase a brew for OTH and GIOTTO for their information, a small price to pay for peace of mind. Thank you to both.

[Traveler1234]

[i]
The Associated Press also confirmed that Mr Thaksin's wife Khunying Pojaman, widely reported to have fled Thailand in panic last Tuesday night just ahead of the declaration of martial law, is safe and sound in Thailand, as is the couple's only son.

Instead, said CDRM spokesman, Thaksin's wife and son "all have the basic right to stay and lead normal lives here. They are living in freedom and without any disturbance, control or restrictions."


Giotto

You could offer them your Presidential Suite instead giving it to that guy name piper :)

[Traveler1234]

Letter From Bangkok
Life During a Coup:
Army Tanks and Open Bars
While rumors were flying among the upper classes, many Thais had little idea their government was being overthrown
By STAN SESSER
September 23, 2006; Page P1


BANGKOK, Thailand -- As one well-connected Thai friend told me: "It was the worst-kept secret in the history of Thailand."

Rumors started flying on mobile phones from daybreak Tuesday, hours before they were reflected in news reports. Then, in the early evening, the tanks started rolling into the city. By 9 p.m., the first television channel switched from regular programming to military music, and just over an hour later, the cable channels went dead. By then, there was no doubt. Thailand, a flourishing democracy for 15 years, was undergoing a military coup.
[Thailand Coup photo]
Peaceful Conflict: A day after the military took over in a bloodless coup, Thai children stand near a tank.

I've been visiting Asia frequently for the past 25 years and have been living in Bangkok for six years, but I hadn't experienced anything like this before. I got the word at 10:15 p.m., when I walked out of a movie to find a text message on my cellphone from a Thai friend. He was in a good position to know. His 73-year-old mother had called him with the rumor that morning, having heard it from friends. In the evening, he'd held a dinner party where the guest of honor -- a friend recently promoted to general in the Thai police -- had to rush home when his wife, an air force officer, called him with the news.

The overthrow of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra exposes a huge contradiction in this modern city. Like most Asian capitals, Bangkok has all the conveniences of the West. Medical care is so good, and so cheap, that many Americans fly here to have major surgery. Its five-star hotels offer unparalleled splendor. Gleaming shopping malls sell every luxury brand. Sometimes I forget I'm in Asia.

But deep down it isn't the West. There's a Buddhist-inspired philosophy about life and death that Thais find comforting but others might call fatalistic. The king of Thailand, Bhumibol Adulyadej, has ruled for 60 years and he's considered semidivine. Early Wednesday morning, he gave the coup his tacit approval. When a snap poll was taken later that day by Suan Dusit Rajabhat University, 86% of Thais outside of Bangkok -- where the ousted prime minister was previously so strongly supported he was considered a shoo-in for this fall's planned election -- said they thought the military coup was a good thing.

Even after news of the coup had broken, finding evidence of it was difficult. The television stations were broadcasting military music but, in the bars, Thais and foreigners alike were still drinking. After getting the news, I took the Skytrain, Bangkok's elevated transport system, to The Wall Street Journal's office. The trains were running as usual and everyone was calm. No Thais and foreigners could be seen talking excitedly to each other or on their phones. There wasn't a soldier anywhere to be seen there, either, and no army vehicles on the street, though I was in the very heart of Bangkok's commercial district.
[tourists on a main street]
Tourists on a main street.

The explanation is that in Thailand, there are coups and then there are coups. Of the 18 in the country since the abolition of the monarchy in 1932, some have been bloody massacres, like the gunning down of students in 1976. Others have been completely passive, like the so-called "April Fool's coup" of April 1, 1981. It failed, according to Thai economist and historian Pasuk Phongpaichit, because the tanks failed to show up at the appointed time.

This coup was clearly destined to be in the second category. The military made its moves while the prime minister was in New York at the United Nations General Assembly. Not a shot was fired, and right from the beginning, curious Bangkok residents drove to the area of government buildings, where there were plenty of soldiers, to take photos of their children standing alongside the tanks. The soldiers were clearly under instruction to smile and be friendly.

That didn't mean it was an evening without some scary things happening. When the military junta pulled the plug on Thailand's cable network, we lost CNN and the BBC. The local TV started showing film clips of the king. Periodically a spokesman for the junta would come onto the air reading proclamations that, among other things, banned political gatherings of more than five people and threatened censorship of the press. Wearing a black suit, the spokesman, later identified as a retired lieutenant general, had a demeanor that would have sent a chill through a convention of undertakers. To make matters worse, the junta initially named themselves the Administrative Reform Council, or ARC, an acronym similar to that of neighboring Myanmar's military junta, who call themselves SLORC. (The ARC later agreed to appoint a civilian government within two weeks and to hold elections within a year.)
[A soldier pays tribute to a monk photo]
A soldier pays tribute to a monk.

That left the Internet for people to learn what was happening, but this liberating medium on this occasion didn't live up to its reputation. News on major Western Web sites seemed incomplete and long out of date. There was also little worth reading on the sites of the two local English-language newspapers, the Bangkok Post and the Nation, which were so overwhelmed it was nearly impossible to get through to them. Thailand, an object of praise for 15 years for its democracy, suddenly resembled a banana republic of 50 years ago, when the only way to get news was to hold a shortwave radio up to your ear.

For tourists, the lack of information made the situation worse. At the five-star Sheraton Grande Sukhumvit, some guests panicked after seeing the usual television programs being replaced by military music and decrees from the junta, says Krissana Uthaishi, the hotel's assistant manager who was on duty that night. Some "wanted to go to the airport immediately," he says. "We told them to be calm, that there's no violence and it's safer for them to stay in the hotel overnight." Tensions mounted as the families of the tourists called from overseas and urged them to get out immediately, says Mr. Krissana.

All 420 rooms had been filled at the hotel on Tuesday night. On Wednesday morning, he estimates that between 15 and 20 rooms checked out early. Many others guests prepared to cut short their trips -- more than 100 room nights were initially canceled, he says. In the days after the coup, however, some guests rebooked their stay. "We're now back to normal," Mr. Krissana says.

Given the absence of military events, conversations among locals and expatriates quickly turned to the fundamental issue intertwined with the coup, that of democracy. The owner of my apartment building, who started as a Thaksin supporter and ended up hating him so much he would corral me for a long harangue whenever he saw me leaving for work, argued that Thailand's democracy had already been destroyed by Mr. Thaksin, leaving an empty shell that needed to be torn down and rebuilt. Similar views were held by other Thais. Earlier this year, on several occasions, tens of thousands of people amassed near Bangkok's iconic Grand Palace complex, waving national flags and placards that called for the prime minister's resignation. The rallies were fueled in part by the sale in January of Mr. Thaksin's family's interest in the Shin Corp. communications empire to a group of investors led by Singapore's Temasek Holdings. The sale was structured so that the transaction, worth about $1.9 billion, would be tax-free.
[tanks at a government building photo]
Tanks at a government building.

In rural areas, however, Mr. Thaksin was extremely popular because of his policies, which included bringing heavily subsidized medical care to the country -- a fact that led even his critics to concede that he would win this fall's planned election.

Even though not a bullet was fired in the coup, like many Bangkok residents I got emails from friends in other countries who wanted to know if I was all right. Many of them lived with instability far worse than a coup, but somehow things always sound worse when they're happening far away. One came from a friend in New York who lived through the destruction of the World Trade Center. Another wrote from Shanghai, where he's at risk of harassment or arrest by Chinese authorities for his advocacy work on behalf of HIV victims. Yet another wrote from Haifa, where he and his neighbors spent tense weeks scrambling to shelters during heavy rocket attacks in the recent Lebanon war.

All I could answer, rather lamely, was that the major impact of the coup on my life was a day's freedom from Bangkok's horrendous traffic jams, since the junta had decreed that Wednesday should be a day off for the public. For the first time in six years, I made it from my apartment to work by taxi without the fare going above the initial drop of 35 baht, which is slightly less than $1.

Thursday morning, still having not seen a soldier, I decided to go out and find evidence of the coup so that at least I could spice up my emails. A friend suggested I try the pedestrian overpass that runs between MBK and Siam Discovery, two shopping malls near where I had seen the movie Tuesday night. Sure enough, there were a dozen soldiers on the overpass, with three armored personnel carriers and an army-green bus parked underneath.

Why here but nowhere else in central Bangkok? The soldiers had yellow ribbons, the color linked to the monarchy, tied to the barrel of their rifles, and they were posing with big smiles with several tourists who were delightedly photographing them. They were clearly part of a public-relations exercise, to show that the Land of Smiles hasn't changed in at least one fundamental way.

Write to Stan Sesser at stan.sesser@awsj.com1

[Giotto]

You could offer them your Presidential Suite instead giving it to that guy name piper :)No way.


Giotto

[Sanook D]

There is a fairly good, in-depth discussion of the coup available as a free podcast from KQED San Francisco. It is available through i-tunes (KQED Forum podcasts) or at their website http://www.kqed.org/ondemand/ .

[Scooby1]

I was checking out pictures of the coup and found this one of a close up of a soilder holding an M16. If you look close you can see that it is not even loaded (there is no clip). Now thats what I call non-violence

[Fast Eddie 48]

I was checking out pictures of the coup and found this one of a close up of a soilder holding an M16. If you look close you can see that it is not even loaded (there is no clip). Now thats what I call non-violence


to Scooby 1

Maybe that why thai women like foriegner because thai men shot blanks.


fast eddie 48

[Giotto]

Thaksin, cabinet get 30 days to comply

PRADIT RUANGDIT

Deposed caretaker prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his cabinet members have been given a deadline to declare their assets and liabilities to the National Counter Corruption Commission (NCCC) by Oct 18 since their removal from power on Sept 19, said Sarawut Menasawet, secretary-general of the Office of the NCCC.

He said the declaration of assets and debts will be on the agenda of the first meeting today of the newly-appointed nine commissioners.

Apart from the prime minister and cabinet members, the cabinet secretary-general, advisers to the prime minister and cabinet members, senators and other political office-holders are required to do the same under the NCCC Act.

Mr Sarawut said the Office of the NCCC will recommend that the commissioners consider making public the declarations which cabinet members had submitted to the office over the past two years, a period during which no commissioners had been appointed to investigate whether the assets and liabilities really existed.

During the two-year period, which had seen several cabinet reshuffles, there had been more than 200 lists of assets and liabilities submitted by cabinet members who were required to declare them each time a shake-up took place.

Those lists are awaiting scrutiny by the new NCCC, Mr Sarawut said.

Usually the Constitution Court was needed to judge cases involving political office-holders, such as the prime minister and his cabinet members, who intentionally submitted falsified lists of assets and liabilities or concealed them.

However, since the Constitution Court has been dissolved by the Council for Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy (CDRM), the commissioners would have to work out measures to solve any problems which might ensue.

As for political office-holders found to be "unusually rich" with suspected ill-gotten assets, the commissioners can refer those cases to the Office of the Attorney-General's Court of Criminal Litigation against Persons Holding Political Positions, Mr Sarawut said.

In addition, there have been about 200 cases involving cabinet members and other political office-holders implicated in corruption in state projects.

Mr Sarawut said investigation reports of some of the cases are ready to be submitted to the commissioners today.

The commissioners will look into irregularities in some high-profile cases including the multi-billion-baht construction of the Klong Dan waste water treatment facility in Samut Prakan, the Expressway and Rapid Transit Authority's 6.2-billion-baht compensation bill paid to the BBCD Joint Venture for breach of contract and the fake compost scam implicating the Agriculture Ministry's senior officials and politicians.

Klanarong Chanthik, an NCCC commissioner, said the first mission of the NCCC is to reveal records of the assets and debts declared by Mr Thaksin and his ministers before they were ousted from power.

After that, the NCCC will tell them to declare their assets and liabilities again within 30 days of the coup taking place. The deadline falls on Oct 18.

"The NCCC Act is designed to dispense justice to the accused. The accused will be given an opportunity to explain," Mr Klanarong said.

Vicha Mahakhun, another NCCC commissioner, said the commission's top priority is to probe corrupt practices by politicians and bring them to justice.

The work will be done in tandem with the deliberation of more than 10,000 cases pending a NCCC decision. A decision on whether some cases are admissible has yet to be made. Meanwhile, former agriculture and cooperatives minister Sudarat Keyuraphan arrived in Bangkok from a trip to Europe yesterday. She said she welcomed the NCCC's probe into her wealth.


Bangkok Post

...

As expected. LOL.


Giotto

[Brotherrabitt]

the six-man military junta that seized control of thailand's government on september 19th appeared before the world's diplomats and press the next day to insist it had no intention of clinging to power. “after two weeks, we step out,” promised sonthi boonyaratglin, the army's commander-in-chief, who led the coup. by then they would have chosen a civilian administration to run the country for a year or so. this new cabinet would in turn select a committee to write a new constitution, which would be put to a referendum. an election would follow thereafter.

the junta—which has styled itself the council for democratic reform—insists its aim is to rescue thai democracy from the “rampant corruption” in the government of thaksin shinawatra, the prime minister it deposed. it was also responding, it said, to mr thaksin's meddling in the country's supposedly independent institutions and to the deep division he has sowed among thais. to their credit, the military men took control without firing a bullet or spilling one drop of blood. however, sitting side-by-side in the imposing auditorium at army headquarters, with the decorations on their smart uniforms gleaming in the television lights, they could not avoid looking like a throwback to thailand's not-so-distant past, when military chiefs regularly seized power, rarely bringing better government.

thailand's current constitution, written as recently as 1997, has been scrapped. five new election commissioners, chosen earlier this month by the senate, will be replaced. political gatherings of more than five people have been banned and there will be censorship of local and foreign news media. the coup leaders said they had “invited” chidchai vanasathidya, mr thaksin's chief deputy—who had been left in charge while the prime minister was attending the general assembly of the united nations in new york—to stay at army headquarters for the time being.

rumours of an impending coup have been swirling around bangkok for weeks. but they could easily have been wishful thinking by some of mr thaksin's opponents. after all, anti-thaksin newspapers incorrectly announced his imminent downfall several times during the street protests against him earlier this year. however, this time the conspiracy theorists were right. the rumours rose to a crescendo during tuesday until eventually, in the late evening, tanks were seen rolling towards government house.

in new york mr thaksin managed to contact one of thailand's television networks and began a live broadcast, declaring an emergency and relieving general sonthi of his command. but it was cut short and, shortly thereafter, a retired military officer appeared on all channels to announce the coup.

the coup brings to an end the months of uncertainty that followed the snap election mr thaksin had called in april to try to bolster his support. the main opposition parties boycotted that poll and, as a result, it failed to produce a quorate parliament. a tearful mr thaksin then announced he was stepping aside—temporarily, as it turned out—to restore national unity. despite this, the political impasse continued, prompting king bhumibol to tell the country's judges to sort out the “mess”. the constitutional court swiftly annulled the april election and, later, the criminal court jailed three of the election commissioners who had organised it.

there was little dissent, either from supporters of mr thaksin or from his opponents, when the new election commissioners were selected earlier this month. thailand seemed to be heading towards a reasonably free and fair vote, perhaps as soon as november, in which the opposition parties would readily take part. mr thaksin was raising the possibility of declining the prime ministership if, as expected, his thai rak thai party won again. had he indeed stood aside in favour of a less divisive figure, the country's politics might have been put on the road to recovery. the reputation thailand had recently acquired, as something of a model for multi-party democracy in south-east asia, might have been restored.

it was not to be. in recent months general sonthi had repeatedly rejected all suggestions of resolving the political crisis by undemocratic means. but his mind may have been changed not so much by political events as by military ones. the deciding factor may have been the culmination of months of infighting among cliques in the armed forces.

class warfare
mr thaksin graduated from class 10 (a sort of fraternity) of the armed forces academies' preparatory school and went on to become a police colonel, and then a hugely rich businessman, before entering politics. he has continued to foster links with his former class 10 comrades and, in recent months, has been accused of trying to land them top military jobs. in this he was pitted against the alumni of class 6, principally general sonthi and the commanding officers of the navy, air force and national police. all four of these men are members of the junta that has removed mr thaksin from office.

it is also widely believed that mr thaksin's opponents in the armed forces enjoy the patronage of prem tinsulanonda, a retired general and former prime minister who is now the king's chief adviser. in july mr prem gave a speech to military cadets telling his audience that soldiers served the king, not politicians. this appeared to be his riposte to mr thaksin's grumble, expressed shortly beforehand, that a “charismatic individual”—widely assumed to mean mr prem—was undermining his government.

in late august a junior army officer was arrested in a car packed with explosives, near mr thaksin's home. though the police took it as a serious assassination attempt, and made a series of arrests of military men, the prime minister's opponents claimed the whole event had been staged to bolster mr thaksin's support and to make his rivals in the army look bad. the next day a group of his supporters visited mr prem and asked him to intervene to “spare” mr thaksin's life.

royal assent?
if the plot to overthrow mr thaksin did indeed go as high as mr prem, this inevitably raises the question of whether it received at least tacit approval from the king himself. certainly, the monarch has not come out against the coup: on september 20th a royal proclamation approved general sonthi as head of the new administration. thais' deep reverence for their monarch, and the country's strict lèse-majesté laws, rule out any open discussion of such delicate matters. but when a foreign reporter put this question to the generals at their press conference, they replied: “we can assure you that this was solely and entirely our decision.”

it was not a good one for anyone who looked to thailand as a newly stable democracy. this week's coup is thailand's first in 15 years but its 18th since the end of the absolute monarchy in 1932. the country has had 15 constitutions since then but many thai politicians and academics seem convinced that another rewrite will do the trick.

ap

traditional thailandwhen the last constitution was written, in 1997, it was widely seen as having struck a successful balance. on the one hand it was expected to give thailand the stronger executive and stronger political parties that the country needed, with its history of weak and short-lived administrations. on the other it introduced new checks and balances, such as a constitutional court and a powerful anti-corruption body. yet the 1997 constitution is now blamed for allowing mr thaksin to dominate state institutions and abuse prime-ministerial power. various wish-lists of reforms—such as easing the restrictions on switching party allegiance—have been drawn up, though it seems unlikely they will achieve the miracles expected of them, even if they are enacted.

at least the current coup-plotters seem a more decent bunch than suchinda kraprayoon, the leader of the most recent coup, in 1991, who in 1992 ordered his troops to open fire on protesters demanding a return to democracy, killing scores. general sonthi has, so far, appeared to be an emollient figure. mr thaksin recently, and belatedly, put him in charge of quelling a growing insurgency in thailand's southern, mainly muslim provinces, which had been made worse by mr thaksin's brutal and incompetent policies. whereas general sonthi, who is himself a muslim, argued that it was necessary to seek out and negotiate with the rebellion's leaders, mr thaksin's aides rejected any such idea.

given general sonthi's respectability, and the welter of accusations of corruption and abuse of power against mr thaksin, many thais may be ready to give him and his fellow plotters a chance to show the sincerity of their promises. but it is noteworthy that even the nation, a virulently anti-thaksin daily, has refrained from cheering the coup that brought down its arch-foe. thai society, it said, believed the generals had done “the wrong thing for the right reason”. and if they were slow to return power to the people, it would start to look as though mr thaksin were a pretext, not the real reason, for their coup.

the millions of thais who voted mr thaksin into office in 2001 and 2005, and who would probably have put him back there again, may be forgiven for wondering why their opinions are being disregarded. they are mostly poorer, rural thais with little prospect of overcoming the might of the armed forces or the slick arguments of bangkok's sophisticates, who will be relieved to see the back of mr thaksin, aghast though they have been to see tanks on the streets of the capital.

mr thaksin had many deep flaws. the gross conflict of interest between his business affairs and his regulatory and lawmaking powers was among the least of them. far worse were his constant attempts to pack independent institutions with cronies; his brutal “war on drug dealers” (which was no less than a licence for extra-judicial killings); and his gross mishandling of the southern insurgency.

but his critics among bangkok's chattering classes were a little too ready to sniff at his attempts to do something for the broad mass of poorer thais, in a way that few political leaders before him had ever done. he may have had his eye mainly on the electoral returns of such policies, but his schemes to offer cheap health care and foster economic development in rural villages did genuinely benefit many.

heart at home, head abroad
the generals insist mr thaksin is welcome to return home, and even to stand in the next election. but the various court cases pending against him, and the others that seem bound to follow now that he is out of power, will make him think twice before coming back. no wonder he abandoned his plans to return to bangkok this week and flew instead to london.

why on earth did he depart on such a long foreign trip, given the strength of the rumours about coup plots? could he have been so confident in his powers that he felt he could safely risk it? or did he realise his end was nigh, and decide it was better to be deposed in his absence, thereby preserving his liberty, and maybe even his life? perhaps, as so often in thailand's tumultuous political history, the full story will never be known.

[Brotherrabitt]

COUNTRY BRIEFING

FROM THE ECONOMIST INTELLIGENCE UNIT

Although dramatic and surprising, the military coup in Thailand on the evening of September 19th has been greeted with remarkable equanimity, even optimism, by many in Bangkok. The coup was bloodless and peaceful and its leaders appear to share the aims of a majority in the capital—namely an end to the political deadlock that has paralysed the country for most of the year and the removal, finally, from public office of Thaksin Shinawatra. The king's support, if it is made explicit, would underline the perception that the coup is in the country's best interests.

Such optimism will not last indefinitely, however. For one thing, although the educated middle classes in the capital tend to speak with one voice, the country remains deeply divided between Thaksin's opponents and supporters, and the latter may yet seek to challenge the military takeover, possibly with violent consequences. The good feeling may also start to wane if the new leadership takes too long to establish a new government—no easy task given that it has scrapped Thailand's parliament and various judicial bodies, and must write a new constitution from scratch. And the longer the period of uncertainty, the greater the negative impact on the economy, which is already showing the strain of a year of political turmoil.

A common goal

General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the coup leader and head of the Administrative Reform Council (ARC, as the interim military government is being referred to) has said that the military does not intend to hold on to power and will seek to return it to the people "as soon as possible". By necessity the ARC's early actions have been directed at extending and reinforcing military control over the country—moving tanks and troops into strategic positions in the capital, shutting down TV stations and imposing martial law. The ARC has also issued several directives, for example to prohibit public gatherings of more than five people (under penalty of a six-month prison term) and to restrict the availability of foreign news providers.

Rather than create a backlash among the city's liberal middle classes, the coup has been actively welcomed in some quarters and passively accepted in others. This is mainly because it appears to offer a way out of the political deadlock that had been dragging on since last year and—more significantly—because it would seem to spell the end of Thaksin's political career. Even after the mass protests that began last year, the annulment of April's farcical snap election, and his decision thereafter to step down as prime minister, Thaksin seemed to be gradually reasserting his authority while acting as head of the caretaker administration. This incensed those who had campaigned for his removal, while also underlining the increasingly popular argument that Thaksin had so effectively subverted the constitution that democracy in Thailand had become a mere simulacrum.

The military does not necessarily share the opinion of liberals in Bangkok who abhorred Thaksin's autocratic tendencies and his intolerance of criticism, but a significant proportion of officers were increasingly upset at what they perceived to be spreading corruption and the subversion of independent agencies such as the election commission (some former members of which were recently jailed for malfeasance in the conduct of the April poll). Thaksin's brash style and aggressive capitalism, epitomised by the sale in January of his family's stake in the state telecommunications provider, Shin Corp, for US$1.9bn—on which no tax was paid—further upset those who placed a higher emphasis on traditional values such as patriotism and loyalty to the king. This was made explicit by General Sonthi, who said after the coup that the caretaker prime minister had caused "an unprecedented rift in society, widespread corruption, nepotism, and [has] interfered in independent agencies, crippling them so they cannot function".

Royal support?

Many people in Thailand are concerned about the manner in which the deadlock was ended, particularly as after the last coup (in 1992) the military said it would renounce its role in politics and support the enhancement of democratic institutions in the country. However, their concerns will be assuaged if King Bhumibol Adulyadej, who is held in exceedingly high esteem by Thailand's population, comes out in support of the coup. Indeed, the theory has been circulated that—although the king has so far made no direct comment on the events of September 19th-20th—he or the Privy Council must have given the enterprise tacit approval.

This theory is supported by three factors. First, General Sonthi is known to be extremely close to the royal family, having been seen as an unofficial voice for the king during clashes with Thaksin on how best to deal with the Muslim insurgency in southern Thailand. It is therefore thought unlikely that he would have considered a military takeover if he knew the king disapproved. Second, the Privy Council was the only administrative body the ARC kept intact (although given the high regard in which the king is held it would have been unthinkable to tinker with the functions of the royal household). And perhaps most significantly, the king granted General Sonthi and the ARC leaders an audience as early as midnight on September 19th.

The king has had clashes with Thaksin before, even going as far as rebuking the prime minister in public, so it would not be unthinkable for him, or at least the Privy Council, to be in favour of his removal. Either way, his public actions henceforth will be crucial in determining the success or otherwise of the coup, as was his mediation in 1992—after violent clashes between pro-democracy campaigners and supporters of the appointed military government of General Suchinda Kraprayoon. His support this time is likely to depend on assurances that there is no violence and that the ARC returns power to the people as soon as possible.

The pro-Thaksin element

General Sonthi's reference to "an unprecedented rift in society" reflects the fact that many people in Thailand, particularly those outside the capital, remain supporters of Thaksin and his Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party. In 2001 Thaksin engineered the most overwhelming victory of any party in any election in modern Thai history. He cemented his popularity in the north and east of the country, particularly among the poor, by giving cash handouts to villages and prioritising expenditure on rural healthcare and infrastructure projects. Consequently he was re-elected by a landslide in 2005, and even though the opposition boycotted the April 2006 snap poll—voters opposed to him cast abstention ballots—his party again won more than half the votes cast.

Such is the effectiveness with which the ARC seized control, it looks unlikely that Thaksin's supporters will make an open challenge to the coup in the near future. Pro-Thaksin elements in the military appear to have been neutralised, and many of Thaksin's political allies in the cabinet and TRT have either been detained or have fled the country. Still, the vast swathes of rural Thailand that supported the caretaker prime minister might not accept the coup with the sang-froid that residents of Bangkok demonstrated. And the formation of a government-in-exile could undermine the legitimacy of constitutional reforms that the ARC is seeking to push through.

What now?

It remains unclear whether the TRT will be allowed to function as a political force even in Thaksin's absence. Assuming the ARC allows the TRT to take part in future elections, it might again win a majority of votes. But the tasks facing the ARC before new elections can be held are sizeable: the military leadership must establish a credible interim government and draw up a new constitution before preparations can begin. There are reports that an interim cabinet is already being assembled, perhaps with the current governor of the Bank of Thailand (the central bank), Pridayadhorn Devakula, taking the position of prime minister. General Sonthi has given the ARC a deadline of two weeks to introduce a new cabinet, and a year to hold new elections, but given the size of the task ahead this may be optimistic. Positive feelings about the takeover will recede the longer uncertainty about the procedure for political reform continues.

Optimism will also be undermined if the events have a negative impact on the economy. The outlook for Thailand's economy was already deteriorating as the political uncertainty dragged on, but before the coup there was at least a timetable for the restoration of normality. Now, however, everything remains up in the air—including, of course, Thaksin's signature policies such as bilateral free-trade agreements, investment in infrastructure and social development "mega-projects", and the sale of stakes in state-owned enterprises. The infrastructure development programme had been put on hold because foreign investors were likely to shy away from making commitments until a new government had been installed. When this will happen is now even less clear.

In light of the coup's negative impact on consumer and investor sentiment, and an expected drop-off in tourism receipts until the crisis is resolved, not to mention the continued impact of high oil prices (which have pushed up inflation and interest rates), the Economist Intelligence Unit is likely to revise down its forecast for GDP growth in Thailand in 2006 and 2007, which currently stand at 4.2% and 4.8% respectively. In a best-case scenario this need not be a major downwards revision, but this depends on the ARC, the king, Thaksin's supporters and Thaksin himself aligning their actions to make this period of transition as brief as possible.

[Terry Terrier]

From the UK Sunday Times:

THE Royal Thai Army will adopt new tactics against a militant Islamic uprising, following the coup that sent Thaksin Shinawatra, the ousted prime minister, into exile in London last week. According to sources briefed by the army high command, Thaksin’s bungled response to the insurgency in southern Thailand, which has claimed 1,700 lives in two years, was a critical factor in the generals’ decision to get rid of him.

Military intelligence officers intend to negotiate with separatists and to use psychological warfare to isolate the most violent extremists, in contrast to Thaksin’s heavy-handed methods and harsh rhetoric.

The coup leader, General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, is a Muslim who has sworn loyalty to Thailand’s King Bhumibol Adulyadej, the symbol of nationhood in this majority Buddhist country of 65m people.

The king has since bestowed his approval on the generals, a sign to Thais that the royal palace shared the belief that Thaksin had to go.

The tanks rolled on a rainy night in Bangkok last week while Thaksin was at the United Nations in New York. But if the prime minister’s absence was the opportunity, sources said, the incentive to act was a sense that the Thai state was losing control over its southern territory, where 4m Muslims live.

A final spur for the coup came when bomb explosions tore through the south’s commercial and tourist centre of Hat Yai last Saturday night, killing a Canadian visitor and three others, wounding dozens and prompting holidaymakers to flee.

Shocked Thai officials conceded that the terrorism could no longer be contained and might spread north to resorts such as Phuket and Koh Samui, with catastrophic results for the £5 billion-a-year tourist industry, still reeling from the 2004 tsunami.

That may explain the muted response to the coup from the United States and Britain, which deplored the damage to Thailand’s young democracy but did not call for Thaksin’s restoration to office.

The coup, in fact, coincided with a low-key conference in Singapore including CIA officials, Pentagon analysts and academics, which heard pessimistic assessments of the deteriorating situation in southern Thailand. “The degree of extremist religious activity in the south is extraordinary,” said one participant, Professor Zachary Abuza of Simmons College, Boston. “There has been a complete failure of intelligence. No one knows who the insurgents are. They don’t have a face.”

For months Thailand had been without a functioning government as its politicians traded allegations of corruption and disputed an election that had returned Thaksin to power in February, reinforcing his determination to stay at the helm as both Thailand’s richest man and its most powerful elected leader.

As head of the army, Sonthi was already deadlocked in an argument with Thaksin over the insurgency in the southern provinces of Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat. Muslims are a majority in the three provinces, sundered from the Malay sultanates by a treaty between Britain and Siam in 1909. A separatist campaign rumbled on for decades, but it had become insignificant thanks to shrewd policies of religious tolerance and good works by the king.

When Thaksin, a former policeman who made his fortune from telecommunications, came to power in 2001, he broke with the old order. He put police cronies in charge of the southern border and shut down two intelligence clearing centres. Soon, reports in the media alleged that corruption, smuggling and racketeering were rife.

In January 2004 militants raided an armoury and started a killing spree. Since then they have murdered Buddhist monks, teachers, hospital staff and civil servants — anyone seen as representing the Thai state. The army seemed powerless to halt the chaos.

“Down there you stay inside the camp at night,” said a soldier who recently returned from a tour of duty. “If you go out, you die.”

Thaksin’s iron-fisted methods went disastrously wrong. A suicidal mass assault on army and police posts by young Muslims, many armed only with machetes, ended with almost 100 “martyrs” dead.

Then 74 unarmed Muslims died at the hands of the security forces at the village of Tak Bae, most of them suffocated in trucks, and a suspected police death squad abducted Somchai Neelaphaijit, a Muslim lawyer, on a Bangkok street. Somchai, who had brought torture cases before the National Human Rights Commission, was never seen again.

Unable to win by military means, the army argued for negotiations with known separatist organisations in a bid to outflank the militants. The king’s concern became clear when his privy counsellors endorsed a return to the traditional approach, but Thaksin ignored such pleas.

Tensions multiplied and rumours swept Bangkok. Police arrested an army officer in charge of a car rigged with explosives and parked near the prime minister’s residence.

Three weeks ago Thaksin, his wife and son emerged from the Oriental hotel. The prime minister got behind the wheel of his bulletproof Mercedes, obliging his bodyguards to follow a route known only to him. Trust at the top had broken down.

Thais were relieved, then, to see that the coup went off without a shot, even if they disagreed with it. This weekend Bangkok streets were coming back to life and children exchanged smiles with soldiers as they posed for photographs.

The generals promised to hand over to civilians after two weeks and to hold elections next year. An inquest into the Thaksin years of “CEO government” may bring prosecutions for corruption and the seizure of ill-gotten gains. Some Thai academics say the real priorities should be better education and a genuinely open economy to face the challenge from China, all reasons to end a wasteful, low-intensity war.

While Thaksin settles into exile in the West End, reportedly as a guest of his old friend Mohamed al-Fayed, the army now needs to find the men without a face in the jungles of the south and to win back hearts and minds — if it is not too late.

[Traveler1234]

from today's ny times - some of the resident mongers might know the author.


september 25, 2006
a banned book challenges saintly image of thai king
by jane perlez


jakarta, indonesia, sept. 24 — when soldiers and tanks rolled onto the streets of bangkok last week and the king appeared on television with the generals, it was not the first time thailand’s wildly popular monarch had given his blessing to a military takeover.

a new and comprehensive history of the thai modern monarchy, written by an american journalist, paul m. handley, and banned in thailand, argues that in his 60-year reign king bhumibol adulyadej has generally exercised a preference for order over democracy.

in doing so, mr. handley said, the king has put the preservation of the institution of the monarchy ahead of a democratic thailand.

the book, “the king never smiles,” presents a direct counterpoint to years of methodical royal image-making that projects a king beyond politics, a man of peace, good works and buddhist humility. it also runs counter to how most thais see their king, as a man of mystique and charisma but also as a bastion of thailand’s moves to modernity.

the book’s publisher, yale university press, said it came under heavy pressure from the thai government not to publish it.

the director of yale university press, john donatich, said the pressure included a visit to new haven by a delegation of thai officials, including the cabinet secretary general, bowornsak uwanno, and the thai ambassador to the united states, virasakdi futrakul.

mr. donatich said he ruled out canceling publication of the book, and copies are now on sale in asian capitals and the united states. but he did agree, he said, to their request that publication be delayed until july, a month after the june 9 celebrations in bangkok of king bhumibol’s 60th anniversary on the throne and his 80th birthday.

“we didn’t want to be accused of exploiting the event,” mr. donatich said.

the televised coverage of the gala provided an unusual look at the court’s unyielding protocol that emphasizes a godly king above ordinary mortals. in one live segment, white-liveried attachés could be seen running ahead of the king to open an elevator door, and then lying prostrate on the floor as the king and his wife passed by.

mr. handley, who worked for 13 years as a journalist in thailand, does not argue with the king’s unequalled status among the people or his dedication to rural development projects. he writes that king bhumibol’s prestige has “survived unrep001hed by the virtue of his sheer longevity and his personality — earnest, hardworking, gentle, with an impeccably simple lifestyle.”

but his book does note that the king sided with a brutal army takeover in 1976, and in 1992 waited three days before stopping a four-star general from ordering troops to fire on demonstrators.

much of what mr. handley writes is not new, and most of the facts are not in dispute, reviewers and thai historians say. it is the book’s interpretation of the facts that can be disputed, said thitinan pongsudhirak, the director of the institute of security and international studies at chulalongkorn university in bangkok.

he disagreed, he said, with the argument that the trouble with thailand’s democracy lay with the king.

“that thai democracy is weak because of the king — i don’t think so,” mr. thitinan said. in fact, he said, the king had approved the 1997 constitution, the most democratic so far, and that was abolished last week

that constitution worked well, he said, until prime minister thaksin shinawatra, ousted last tuesday, was acquitted of asset concealment by the constitutional court in 2001, a decision the king had nothing to do with.

the yale press agreed to consider some factual errors that the thais said were of concern. in the end, mr. donatich said, the thais submitted only three or four minor corrections, like the correct title of a royal daughter’s thesis. “he did his homework,” mr. donatich said of the author.

a portion of a document from the thai cabinet that appeared on a thai web site and appearing, by all accounts, to be authentic, listed the ways the thais tried to prevent publication, and if it went ahead, how to block the book’s distribution in thailand.

according to the document, the government contacted the american law firm leboeuf, lamb, greene and macrae, which told it that publication would be impossible to stop on constitutional grounds. such efforts would generate unwanted publicity, the lawyers advised.

the document said the authorities had banned the book in thailand on the grounds that it was a threat to stability. it said thai officials had contacted the yale university president, richard levin, and had sought the help of former president george h. w. bush, an alumnus of yale.

for fans of royals as royals, mr. handley offers up plenty of what might be classified as high-class dish, like a recounting of the mystery surrounding the death of the king’s elder brother, ananda, who was found in 1946 in his bed with a bullet through his head six months after being crowned king. (the official version at the time was that ananda had accidentally killed himself.)

king bhumibol was born in the united states, grew up in switzerland and married the lithe, pretty princess sirikit, a favorite of the 1960’s jet set, who by the 1980’s had weathered into a much more fulsome version of a queen with her own court favorites, expensive tastes and pet charities.

the book describes their only son, vajiralongkorn, as a willful man prone to violence, fast cars and dubious business deals. it may well be, mr. handley suggests, that the king’s favorite daughter, princess sirindhorn, who is a dutiful royal with wide-ranging interests in rural development and architecture, will be his successor.

“bhumibol’s most fundamental failing is the achilles’ heel of every monarchy: he has been unable to guarantee an orderly succession to a wise, selfless, and munificent king like himself,” the book concludes.

[Seydlitz]

"bhumibol’s most fundamental failing is the achilles’ heel of every monarchy: he has been unable to guarantee an orderly succession to a wise, selfless, and munificent king like himself,” the book concludes.

i read most of that book while on transit in singapore airport. i found it very much in support of what i perceived to be hm's person and achievements. it is my belief that hm is one of the most decent and influencial persons alive in this world. however, he is not a saint, and he has had to carefully balance his actions to reconcile as much as possible his ideals with the harsh realities of politics.

his task has from the beginning been to be "thailand's guiding light", i.e. to guide a semi-feudal asian country in the path for development while avoiding the most onerous mistakes that were made in pretty much every other country in the region. in that light, his record is impeccable. true, there are some shadows accumulated over 60 years. true, some of his actions (or inactions) might be seen as slightly controversial, with hindsight and in western eyes. sometimes, he appeared to condone the use of force, sometimes democracy was put on the backburner for a few years. at least, most thai people do not seem to mind much about that. i am naïve enough to believe that you cannot consistently fool tens of millions of your own people for 60 years about yourself…

one should keep in mind that even a sacred character like an asian monarch can be ousted, deposed or even killed, often by his own military. it has happened in several countries in the last 100 years, most recently in nepal. vietnam, laos and cambodia once had royal houses that ended in bloodshed. even the emperor of japan was nearly assassinated in 1945 by die-hard officers who wanted to prevent his delivering the speech that ended the war.

as a constitutional monarch, hm was well advised to use his influence wisely, which means not too often and not too forcefully. that way he was able to remain on the throne for the greater benefit of the thai nation. the concern voiced in the book about the succession is founded, but there is no reason not to believe that when the time comes, things will take the most appropriate course.

[Traveler1234]

I read most of that book while on transit in Singapore airport. I found it very much in support of what I perceived to be HM's person and achievements. The concern voiced in the book about the succession is founded, but there is no reason not to believe that when the time comes, things will take the most appropriate course.

Looking forward to reading it - just ordered a copy via my local library.

Btw, was it negative enough to warranted being banned in thailand?

[Seydlitz]

Looking forward to reading it - just ordered a copy via my local library.

Btw, was it negative enough to warranted being banned in thailand?

I did not think so. But I am not Thai. I found the book to be well written,well documented and very respectful of HM, while doing a good job of reviewing 60 years of reign and all teh relevant issues. Reading it though, I was not surprised it was banned in LOS.

In LOS, anything even slighly controversial about the monarchy is likely to be banned. The rule seems to be: if you do not have nice things to say about it, then do not mention it. The monarchy is simply off-limits. That does not cover only the present monarch but also all of his predecessors.

In the recent past, there was an attempt by some in the press to sort people as For Thaksin or For His Majesty. Immediately prominent people form both pro and con Thaksin fractions came forth to state that since everybody is for His Majesty, you simply cannot make such distinction. The matter died in matters of hours.

[Old Thai Hand]

Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn as successor - This idea had been bandied about for years. It was already widely talked about when I arrived here. It's true that most Thais would prefer it. But, it won't happen. It would require a major constitutional change and that's not about to happen. A further indication that it won't happen is that the crown prince is now preforming most of the royal duties that the king cannot perform anymore. He has become very high profile in recent years. The fact that he married his mia noi and they have a son and successor, while the crown princess is not married and has no children is a further indication that the succession will follow a familiar path.

I don't know what impact, if any his succession will have on Farang in Thailand. He is known to dislike Farang intensely and be widely critical of their presence and influence in the kingdom. But, he's also aware that Thailand needs foreign capital.

It will be interesting to see what will happen.

[Traveler1234]

Update from WSJ



Thai Interim Prime Minister
Could Be Former Soldier
Associated Press
September 26, 2006 5:32 a.m.

BANGKOK, Thailand -- Thailand's military rulers said Tuesday they wrote a temporary constitution appointing themselves advisers to any interim government, and hinted they might replace ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra with an ex-military man.

The comments by coup leader Gen. Sondhi Boonyaratkalin gave the first indication that military rulers who seized power a week ago don't plan to withdraw entirely from the political process -- a prospect that critics condemned as another blow to democracy.
[Sondhi Boonyaratkalin]

Mr. Sondhi told reporters the draft constitution will be reviewed by academics and submitted to the king for a royal endorsement by Sunday, at which point a new leader can be named.

The ruling military council hopes to install a new civilian prime minister "as soon as possible," but is still narrowing down its candidates for the job, Mr. Sondhi said. He didn't rule out a former soldier for the temporary role. "When you say 'civilian prime minister,' you will see that soldiers after they retire can be called civilians," Mr. Sondhi said in a response to a question during a nationally televised press conference.

Mr. Sondhi led a coup that ousted Mr. Thaksin on Sept. 19 and said at the time that a civilian leader would be installed within two weeks -- or by Oct. 4. But on Tuesday he said the military council -- formally called the Council for Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy -- will stay on in an advisory role after it hands over power to a civilian government.

Under the temporary constitution the ruling council will be "transformed" into the National Security Council, to advise the government on security matters, Mr. Sondhi said. "We do not know what the internal situation will be in the future," Mr. Sondhi said. "As of today the situation is calm, orderly and peaceful, but we do not know what is going to happen in the future."

Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said the coup makers appeared to be backtracking on promises to quickly step aside. "If they hold on to power, it will be the opposite of what was announced and we hope that it will not happen," he said.

Democracy activist Ji Ungpakorn, a political science professor at Chulalongkorn University, said that any interim government not elected by the people was unacceptable -- whether the person is an ex-soldier or civilian.

"It doesn't really matter who the prime minister is," he said. "A military appointed government has no legitimacy." The military council has said it wants a constitution with less "loopholes" that makes future leaders more accountable. Mr. Sondhi said Tuesday that a draft interim constitution has been written and will be submitted for endorsement by Thailand's king by Sunday.

Mr. Sondhi said the incoming prime minister must be someone "well accepted by society" who is honest and "able to create unity" in the country. He said the new prime minister will have a free hand to choose ministers for a 35-member cabinet.

One of the leading candidates for the job is believed to be former army commander Surayud Chulanont, who is a member of the king's inner circle of advisers. Others appear to be a high-court judge, Supreme Administrative Court President Ackaratorn Chularat; Supachai Panitchpadki, a former head of the World Trade Organization and a current U.N. official; and Pridiyathorn Devakula, chief of Thailand's central bank. All are regarded as corruption-free and either politically neutral or on record as having opposed Mr. Thaksin's regime.
[Thaksin Shinawatra]

Moves to oust Mr. Thaksin -- who overwhelmingly won three election victories since 2001 -- began earlier this year when tens of thousands of people took to the streets of the capital Bangkok accusing him of corruption and abuse of power, and calling for his resignation.

Since taking power, the military council has established several anti-corruption panels to investigate accusations of wrongdoing against the Thaksin government.

The military has cited official corruption as one of the reasons for its Sept. 19 coup, staged while Mr. Thaksin was attending the annual U.N. General Assembly meetings in New York.

The top graft-fighting panel said Monday it might freeze the assets of Mr. Thaksin and his top aides if evidence is found that they tried to transfer their wealth abroad. Mr. Thaksin is currently in London.

Mr. Sondhi said he didn't expect Mr. Thaksin to return home anytime soon. "I think he is aware of the situation," Mr. Sondhi said. "I do not think he will return in the near future." Mr. Thaksin's family is one of the wealthiest in Southeast Asia -- and was even before he became prime minister in 2001.

The military council has also promised to hold elections by October next year after a new constitution is enacted to replace the one scrapped when it ousted Mr. Thaksin.

[Dinghy]

Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn as successor - This idea had been bandied about for years. It was already widely talked about when I arrived here. It's true that most Thais would prefer it. But, it won't happen. It would require a major constitutional change and that's not about to happen. A further indication that it won't happen is that the crown prince is now preforming most of the royal duties that the king cannot perform anymore. He has become very high profile in recent years. The fact that he married his mia noi and they have a son and successor, while the crown princess is not married and has no children is a further indication that the succession will follow a familiar path.

I don't know what impact, if any his succession will have on Farang in Thailand. He is known to dislike Farang intensely and be widely critical of their presence and influence in the kingdom. But, he's also aware that Thailand needs foreign capital.

It will be interesting to see what will happen.


Some of the expat Thai I have talked to here seem tho think that he is "mellowing" in his dislike for non-Thai. Evidently he resents (deeply) the influence foreign money has in muangThai. But compared to seveal years ago (10 maybe?) he is a LOT mellower (and not so rowdy, either - having the kid seems to have helped quite a bit)

[Seydlitz]

Some of the expat Thai I have talked to here seem tho think that he is "mellowing" in his dislike for non-Thai. Evidently he resents (deeply) the influence foreign money has in muangThai. But compared to seveal years ago (10 maybe?) he is a LOT mellower (and not so rowdy, either - having the kid seems to have helped quite a bit)

It is a bit early to worry about such an eventuality. Lots of things can happen before that.

One should keep in mind than it takes more to be the King in Thailand than to be the King of Thailand, if you see what I mean. Per se, the monarch has had very limited power vested in His person by successive constitutions since 1932.

It took half a century to make the current monarch the owerwhelming character He is. Frankly, those are footsteps that any successor is going to find massively challenging to follow.

[Phantomtiger2]

Although the King's power have diminished over the last several decades,--similar to the British Monarchy's power. The Thai King still holds an overwhelming power to "influence" the Thai people as he is so beloved. He may not be able to directly pass laws but many political followers could easily follow his lead to please the masses.

[Old Thai Hand]

Some of the expat Thai I have talked to here seem tho think that he is "mellowing" in his dislike for non-Thai. Evidently he resents (deeply) the influence foreign money has in muangThai. But compared to seveal years ago (10 maybe?) he is a LOT mellower (and not so rowdy, either - having the kid seems to have helped quite a bit)

It is true that he is mellower, largely due to being read the riot act by his father, some years ago.

But, I have first-hand experience of his dislike for Farang. Without giving too much away; he was handing out Royal Honors to all employees at a place I worked at earlier this year. All the Farang staff were told not to come to work that day. Those that lived at the institution were told to either leave the grounds or stay in their apartments during his visit. We were as elligible for the honor as the Thai staff (We had already received Royal Decorations previously from another member of the family). But, he specifically made a point of only awarding Thai staff and not the Farang staff.

Seydlitz is correct. It will take a great deal for him to fill the shoes of his father.

[Blacklisted]

I have been reading the great reports on this thread religiously since the coup and was wondering about the Bangkok airport.

Word has it that certain flights will be re-directed to a different airport in Thailand. Anyone know about this?

Cheers

[Blond Alien]

I was reading some info about this Thai king and I found it surprising how rich he is. The wikipedia article estimates he is worth to 8 billion USD, and there was an article in the Economist magazine that estimate his worth including all assets under other cyndicates or other names up to 15 billion USD. That makes him one of the richest man on earth. The Economist article also points out its impossible to discuss his business enterprises in Thailand because there is some ancient law that prohibits Thai press or the general public to discuss anything "unrespectful" to the Thai king. Then I start to think with this immense wealth, is he or his family doing enough to help the huge suffering masses. I personally doubt it.

It also says that the Thai monarch may not be paying the proper taxation. I just wonder if the Thai law also exempt them from taxations? or simply no one dares to collect their taxes? I noticed one of the reasons that military try to justify the coup is that prime minister Thaksin used loopholes to invade taxes. Then if thats the case, then its interesting that is there a double standard for the Thai monarch family and the Thaksin family?

Another interesting thing I observed is that the military seems like the Thai king's personal army. I always thought that military belongs to the nation, to the people, and serve the people and the nation. But seems like the military in Thailand only serve the king and only loyal to this one man. From where we come from in the west, this is really unbelievable. The power of this one man can over ride the power of the nation and the power of the 60 million people and over the constitution.

I think this is a result of the very poor education and knowleges and Thai general masses are still quite ignorant of thier surroundings and, and very poor in awareness level plus all the years of mental maipulations by the authority. I can confirm Thais are certainly very easily manipultaed race.

About the coup, I think there is no way to justify the overthrow of the legally elected government by the military and the king. If this can justify then from now on, every time they face a overly charismatic or controversial leader they can always use the same excuse such as corruption, social division ect ect to overthrow him. So whats the use of constitution and whats the use of elections. Maybe the king should hand pick them all. Much easier.

The Thais still have lots of mental developement to do to realize the conditions they are actually in and how much manipulated they are. But I guess this is a tough part of the growing pains as an infant democracy in a very immature third world nation trying to grow.

[Old Thai Hand]

I was reading some info about this Thai king and I found it surprising how rich he is. The wikipedia article estimates he is worth to 8 billion USD, and there was an article in the Economist magazine that estimate his worth including all assets under other cyndicates or other names up to 15 billion USD. That makes him one of the richest man on earth. The Economist article also points out its impossible to discuss his business enterprises in Thailand because there is some ancient law that prohibits Thai press or the general public to discuss anything "unrespectful" to the Thai king. Then I start to think with this immense wealth, is he or his family doing enough to help the huge suffering masses. I personally doubt it.

It also says that the Thai monarch may not be paying the proper taxation. I just wonder if the Thai law also exempt them from taxations? or simply no one dares to collect their taxes? I noticed one of the reasons that military try to justify the coup is that prime minister Thaksin used loopholes to invade taxes. Then if thats the case, then its interesting that is there a double standard for the Thai monarch family and the Thaksin family?

Another interesting thing I observed is that the military seems like the Thai king's personal army. I always thought that military belongs to the nation, to the people, and serve the people and the nation. But seems like the military in Thailand only serve the king and only loyal to this one man. From where we come from in the west, this is really unbelievable. The power of this one man can over ride the power of the nation and the power of the 60 million people and over the constitution.

I think this is a result of the very poor education and knowleges and Thai general masses are still quite ignorant of thier surroundings and, and very poor in awareness level plus all the years of mental maipulations by the authority. I can confirm Thais are certainly very easily manipultaed race.

About the coup, I think there is no way to justify the overthrow of the legally elected government by the military and the king. If this can justify then from now on, every time they face a overly charismatic or controversial leader they can always use the same excuse such as corruption, social division ect ect to overthrow him. So whats the use of constitution and whats the use of elections. Maybe the king should hand pick them all. Much easier.

The Thais still have lots of mental developement to do to realize the conditions they are actually in and how much manipulated they are. But I guess this is a tough part of the growing pains as an infant democracy in a very immature third world nation trying to grow.


This post REALLY pissed me off!!!

I strongly suggest you delete this report for its stupidity, naiivity, basic lack of ANY understanding of Thais and Thai culture and incredible disrespect for the King and the Thai people. Who gives a shit about where you "come form in the west" and your western-biased view of things? It does not apply here and to this culture. So, America is in such great shape with it's war-monger president and his gang of thugs and their right-wing press?

Don't express opinions for which you are obviously ill-equiped. More to the point, lets hope you never come here, or if by some misfortune you are here, let's hope the new visa regulations force you to leave.

[Seydlitz]

Another interesting thing I observed is that the military seems like the Thai king's personal army. I always thought that military belongs to the nation, to the people, and serve the people and the nation. But seems like the military in Thailand only serve the king and only loyal to this one man. From where we come from in the west, this is really unbelievable. The power of this one man can over ride the power of the nation and the power of the 60 million people and over the constitution.

The Thais still have lots of mental development to do to realize the conditions they are actually in and how much manipulated they are. But I guess this is a tough part of the growing pains as an infant democracy in a very immature third world nation trying to grow.

In Thailand, the King IS the Nation, and the Nation IS the King. They are one and the same. True, armed forces have an allegiance to the person of the monarch. However, this is formally the case in many countries that still have a monarch as the head of state. The British military are "All the Queen's Men" (and Women too these days). That does not make them the private army of Queen Elisabeth II.

You seem to have little grasp, let alone respect, of Thai ways and Thai thinking. Besides, your comments are truly condescending to the point of being insulting, maybe even racist.

[Piper1]

I saw this book in a bookshop window in Australia tonight. Shop was closed so I couldn't buy the book. I found this blurb and cover pic on Amazon.
______________

"... Taking into account factors such as timing, media control, popular support, and government organisational structure, and by drawing on examples of coups from all over the world, both failed and successful, the authors reveal exactly what it takes to carry out a successful government take-over."
______________

The book was published March 2006. I wonder who might have read it recently? Hmmm.

[Backbob]

i was reading some info about this thai king and i found it surprising how rich he is. the wikipedia article estimates he is worth to 8 billion usd, and there was an article in the economist magazine that estimate his worth including all assets under other cyndicates or other names up to 15 billion usd. that makes him one of the richest man on earth. the economist article also points out its impossible to discuss his business enterprises in thailand because there is some ancient law that prohibits thai press or the general public to discuss anything "unrespectful" to the thai king. then i start to think with this immense wealth, is he or his family doing enough to help the huge suffering masses. i personally doubt it.

it also says that the thai monarch may not be paying the proper taxation. i just wonder if the thai law also exempt them from taxations? or simply no one dares to collect their taxes? i noticed one of the reasons that military try to justify the coup is that prime minister thaksin used loopholes to invade taxes. then if thats the case, then its interesting that is there a double standard for the thai monarch family and the thaksin family?

another interesting thing i observed is that the military seems like the thai king's personal army. i always thought that military belongs to the nation, to the people, and serve the people and the nation. but seems like the military in thailand only serve the king and only loyal to this one man. from where we come from in the west, this is really unbelievable. the power of this one man can over ride the power of the nation and the power of the 60 million people and over the constitution.

i think this is a result of the very poor education and knowleges and thai general masses are still quite ignorant of thier surroundings and, and very poor in awareness level plus all the years of mental maipulations by the authority. i can confirm thais are certainly very easily manipultaed race.

about the coup, i think there is no way to justify the overthrow of the legally elected government by the military and the king. if this can justify then from now on, every time they face a overly charismatic or controversial leader they can always use the same excuse such as corruption, social division ect ect to overthrow him. so whats the use of constitution and whats the use of elections. maybe the king should hand pick them all. much easier.

the thais still have lots of mental developement to do to realize the conditions they are actually in and how much manipulated they are. but i guess this is a tough part of the growing pains as an infant democracy in a very immature third world nation trying to grow.and which almighty planet have you descended from blond alien?

firstly, dont believe everything you happen to read on the internet.

secondly, if you do happen to go down that road- keep any rep001hing critisisms you might derive to yourself.

they dont belong on an open forum

i'm not even thai but your "learned observations" are completely off mark and couldnt be more untrue.

hopefully you will have the balls and fortitude to post an apology for the scores of people you have offended (as im sure you have).

other than that welcome to isg and have a nice day

[Blacklisted]

I think this is a result of the very poor education and knowleges and Thai general masses are still quite ignorant of thier surroundings and, and very poor in awareness level plus all the years of mental maipulations by the authority. I can confirm Thais are certainly very easily manipultaed race.



I can also confirm you have a very poor education, are ignorant, arrogant and suffering from a poor level of awareness. I'm sure you are also an easily manipulated wanker who should take his one fuckhead post and [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) off.

If you don't know what you're talking about, then better off don't say it.

You have a lot to learn little man.

-BL

[Piper1]

Blacklisted, stop beating around the bush, and say what you really think. ;)

I might be wrong, but when I read Blondie's post, I immediately saw it as a parody. As a "first-time poster", he knows a lot more than would be expected. His post is an interesting mix of perfect English and ESL. I think he's a frequent poster, taking the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140).

[Blond Alien]

I thought this is an international open forum and people can present their observations and their knowledges to share. People come from all over backgrounds and take different positions. But I did not expect many forum members to reject someone's knowledges and osbervations and insulting someone for stating the facts, or at least you need to support yourself with some other facts in order to reject what one says.

I do stand firm on that Thai general masses are still quite ignorant and not very intellectual. I may not have spent so much times in Thailand like you old timers but I have lots of chances to work with Thais. I can confirm that Thais even people with good educations are not independent thinkers or analyzers. They are more or less follower type. I am not being racist as some of you say, but this is absolutely from by previous experiences working with Thais, that they have very bad reasoning and analyzing ability, as compared to the nations nearby like China, HK, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, or even Vietnam ect, I can see the difference clearly when I deal with them.

So I stand firm that this kind of coup can take place in Thailand has to do with the general public's intellectual level, and their awareness level. I do not believe this kind of coup will ever take place in other Asian nations like Malaysia, Taiwan, Korea, which also has very polarized society, simply because the society as whole is more intellectual and aware of their conditions and will never approve the military to interfere with politics.

I know some of you old timers really love Thailand unconditionaly regardless what happen there, and cannot take any negative thoughts about Thailand, but everyone needs to have some conscious thinking occasionaly. Don't let these Thai ladies cast deadly spell over you. Ha ha.

[Seydlitz]

I know some of you old timers really love Thailand unconditionaly regardless what happen there, and cannot take any negative thoughts about Thailand, but everyone needs to have some conscious thinking occasionaly.

I very rarely engage in debates with other posters, but in this case I stand by what I wrote. Your broad generalizations about Thai people are simplistic and condescending. Period.

Quite the contrary to what you seem top believe, most old timers I know (to use your terminology) are very critical of Thai ways, and so am I. This being said, your comments on HM's fortune and tax priviledges are out of line. As for the military and coups, I already responded.

[Traveler1234]

I do stand firm on that Thai general masses are still quite ignorant and not very intellectual. I may not have spent so much times in Thailand like you old timers but I have lots of chances to work with Thais. I can confirm that Thais even people with good educations are not independent thinkers or analyzers. They are more or less follower type. I am not being racist as some of you say, but this is absolutely from by previous experiences working with Thais, that they have very bad reasoning and analyzing ability, as compared to the nations nearby like China, HK, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, or even Vietnam ect, I can see the difference clearly when I deal with them.


You make 'some' valid points above - but it was not obvious from your earlier general statements.

I think a better way to phrase it is that certain cultures, eg Thai and Indonesia (and even Malay) - are more laid back than say the type-A work-aholic Chinese 'tigers'.

[Opebo]

Huzzah on the perceptive post. You have really rattled the cages of some of the Thai-worshipers here. Certainly I'm fond of Thailand for the sexual services available here, and the delicious food, but there is no doubt the place is a bit of a slave-camp. Then again, in fairness, so is the whole capitalist world.

[Old Thai Hand]

blond alien

thailand and thai people are not perfect. there are many things here that i find frustrating. it is true that thais have had a bad education system in the past that promoted rote learning and blind obedience to the teacher and those above them over independent thought. but, that is changing rapidly. however, the previously bad educational system does not mean that thais lack intelligence or the ability to think for themselves. they are a very creative and intelligent people. perhaps their thinking processes aren't as aggressive as westerners or even, as t1234 puts it, a-personality types like the chinese and even koreans, for that matter. but, your suggestion that they accepted the coup blindly because they lack the intelligence or independent will to fight against it shows a complete lack of understanding of the political turmoil that has wreaked havoc on this country for the last year and the political dictatorship that led to that turmoil. the fact that 86% of the thais support the coup is because they are looking for a new start and a way out of the mess they've endured under taksin. they are smart enough to only put up with so much for so long. that will be true with the coup leaders, as well if they don't act quickly to restore democracy.

i have worked closely with thais for the last 10 years both in thai companies and the thai education system. since i am part of that education system, i see first hand the ability of thais on a daily basis. i agree with seydlitz that your views are broad, simplistic and condescending and above all, just plain wrong. traveler 1234 has it correct as well, that thais are just laid back. they may not express an opinion for example in fear of offending someone. you need to understand the culture considerably more if you're going to make any analysis of its failings.

as for your remarks about the king: apart from being inaccurate, they are also insulting and don't belong anywhere. whoever wrote the article you read didn't really do their homework or didn't understand how the king's wealth actually manifests itself. a good deal of his wealth is actually what is called royal household assets. this is not his personally. the royal household bureau has considerable assets that are probably what was being assessed in this article as the king's wealth. for example, the royal household bureau owns approximately 60% of all the land in thailand. this is not the king's land. but, he certainly draws an income from those assets in the form of salary, much as the queen of england gets an annual salary. but, he doesn't personally own those assets. the king has initiated a considerable number of social welfare project, agricultural projects and technology projects and continues to do so that all benefit the country. he has used his own wealth in many cases to finance such projects.

to read some article and post the information as your opinion without actually doing any independent research on your own to verify the information and support your dubious opinions shows your stupidity.

finally the fact that a lightweight like o**** with his pathetic, sad view of things is your only defender further weakens your already tenuous position.

[Backbob]

Well Blond Alien, looks as if you are hell bent on inundating us with "knowledge" from your well of wisdom. I didnt think it was humanly possible to interject as much disrespect into one post as you managed to in your first post yet in your second post, you "stand firm" and reiterate all your crock.

You ought to stay of the sauce and dont skip your medication you twit!

[Blond Alien]

It seems like a few old timers have thier views very fixed about the Thai scenarios. Probably no matter how much more evidences, facts, observations, ect won't solve any disagreements. I am mostly active on other non-English forums. And I am quite surprised all the verbal violence in this English Thai forums. In other non-English forums that I participate, we feel so free to exchange our views, to discuss our disagreements, and to share our observations and feelings about certain subjects. But this forum is so rough and vulgar that I have never experienced before.

I do not work in education, but in corporate level all over Asia and South America, and Europe. Some member argue that Thais are simply laid back or simply afraid to express thier opions. In the corporate level, this is not true. I work with many so-called Thai executives, Thai managerial classes, and they have no hold back to express their opinions. But again I find it so frustrating that even in the top managerial classes, they have terrible problem-solving ability, have terrible analytical ability. When it comes to tough problems, they do not know how to reason through it and solve the problems on their own. They heavily rely on other thinkers to work through a mess of problems. I don't say everyone is like that, I can confirm in all my experiences working with these high managerial classes, a big majority has terrible analytical ability.

On the contrary, for example in China, HK, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea ect, lots of these little office girls can shock you with their working ability. In these countries, even lower level office workers can always out perform their duties, not much instruction is giving to them, and they can always think and reason their ways through a tough a mess.

About the Thai king's assets. I actually asked a Thai friend who teaches political sciences at ABAC University in Bangkok yesterday through e-mails. He agrees with me a lot. Besides the Old Thai Hand points out the king's assests of the Royal Household which owns much of the lands in Thailand and rents out to others including Siam Paragon, Suan Luang night bazaar, and all areas of Chid-lom and Plern-chit. The family like his son and daughters do have huge business enterprises of their own that have nothing to do with the Royal Household groups. He agrees with me, there is no transparency as how much assests that each of the family member has. So there is absolutely no way to know that if all their enterprises are paying proper taxations. And he believes there is no agency as well who is brave enogh to check on thier accounts. He also complains that even in academic setting of college they cannot talk freely of the Thai monarch, it's history, it's pro and cons, ect ect, yes even in political science classes in an university in Thailand, some topics are restricted and strictly monitored by the military/police. This is quite shocking to me as I learned from him.

When there is some questionable points about the Thai monarch, or the Thai system, or it's bahaviour, some of the old timers seems to accuse everything as insults or say the questions don't belong here. This only show some of you old timers being in Thailand too long and become unconditional defender of this systems and behaviours, or perhaps brian dead by having too much Nana gals.

Come on, people all should have a mind searching for the truths. As long as people are moving forward in search of the truth, disagreements being a vital part of searching itself, we all are on the right track. The worse thing is that people stop questioning the dubious, and simply take all things as the way it should be, the way its is, then how do we human race push forward for furthur progress, for a vital change. I hope this forum can be more polite and more precise about it's dicussions and without all the verbal knock outs.

[Dinghy]

The major difference between Thai and “farang” is a mindset which is only interpretable by understanding the Buddhist principles (fatalistic, some say) and their application to “everyday life”. Take a look at the Thai national anthem –

"Thailand is the unity of Thai blood and body.
The whole country belongs to the Thai people, maintaining thus far for the Thai.
All Thais intend to unite together.
Thais love peace but do not fear to fight.
They will never let anyone threaten their independence.
They will sacrifice every drop of their blood to contribute to the nation, will serve their country with pride and prestige full of victory.
CHAI YO. [Cheers].”

Some have said that Thai are “nationalistic” – OK so what of it? Would YOU like having someone else effectively run your government? – remember “colonial times”? and also remember that Thailand was the ONLY Southeast nation NOT colonized by the European powers. I suppose there could be an argument made about the “simplistic” nature of the Thai and I suppose the identical argument could be made about the population of Southern California as well. Why wouldn’t the populace “accept” political change? (The rice was there yesterday, it’s there today and there is no reason to suspect that it won’t be there tomorrow as well – perhaps this is overly simplistic) There certainly wasn’t any word from the King that it was “proscript” (indeed, the coup leaders went out of their way to state they were establishing a government with the King as titular head of state and in the absence of “bad words” were given a de-facto “blessing” – or at the very least not an admonishment)

The “royal” presence is historical – indeed because it is a constitutional monarchy where the King’s powers are more symbolic than political (but NEVER EVER EVER make light of the King, or you will be spitting up teeth faster than if you ran a moto-cy off the road into a tree) IF the King wanted to involve himself in “routine” politics, the populace would support him – they identify with the monarchy as being “Thailand”.

After I duck from this, I will consider writing more…(ducking as in “avoiding brickbats and arrows flung my way")

(Blondie, you look at Thailand with a farang's eyes. That makes you prejudiced at the start)

[Traveler1234]

Blonde Allen



And I am quite surprised all the verbal violence in this English Thai forums. But this forum is so rough and vulgar that I have never experienced before.
Welcome to LOS and the ISG. You’ll note a couple of countries, eg Thailand, Philippines, recently China – have either fight club and/or no crosstalk rule in effect. It’s been getting rough lately but I can assure you not everyone is like that.


I do not work in education, but in corporate level all over Asia and South America, and Europe. Some member argue that Thais are simply laid back or simply afraid to express thier opions. In the corporate level, this is not true. I work with many so-called Thai executives, Thai managerial classes, and they have no hold back to express their opinions. But again I find it so frustrating that even in the top managerial classes, they have terrible problem-solving ability, have terrible analytical ability. When it comes to tough problems, they do not know how to reason through it and solve the problems on their own.

On the contrary, for example in China, HK, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea ect, lots of these little office girls can shock you with their working ability. In these countries, even lower level office workers can always out perform their duties, not much instruction is giving to them, and they can always think and reason their ways through a tough a mess.
I think there are two issues here: work ethic and intellect. On the former, there are several countries that historically are seen to be ‘lazy and/or laid back’ - Thais, Vietnamese men (but not women), Malays and Indonesians. The Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are viewed are type A work horses.

On the issue of intellect, I don’t think it’s fair to denigrate managerial or corporate skills. If they’re good, the Thai managers equal anyone in Asia. If they’re bad, they are no worse than a poor Chinese or Japanese manager. As smart as my former executive secretaries in Taiwan, HK and Singapore have been (and in the past 30 yrs I’ve had 1 or 2 that are now middle level execs), it’s unfair to say they are superior to say one of my good Thai sales or marketing executives. Now, if you say the secretary is harder working than my Thai managers, I regretfully would have to agree at times.


About the Thai king's assets.
No different than our most famous royal family in the UK, right? She doesn’t pay taxes and it’s legal?



I hope this forum can be more polite and more precise about it's dicussions and without all the verbal knock outs.
Conversely, in your first post, you made some generalizations which appeared very simplistic….I think as you expound on your thoughts, reaction will be more civil ☺

[Buko Max]

The U.S. slaps Thailand with sanctions:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5390284.stm

[Member #2041]

The U.S. slaps Thailand with sanctions:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5390284.stm

Apparently, Bush and Cheney have been in on the graft from Thaksin, and they are pissed.

[Seydlitz]

The U.S. slaps Thailand with sanctions

Really? Publicly annoucing the cutting off of $24m (£12.8m) in military assistance is rather mild I would say. The US indignation must be very limited.

Seriously, the US administration felt the need to announce some sort of retribution for the coup, but nobody is fooled. It is for public opinion only.

Besides, the Thai military does not need much money in military assistance. The armed forces have been on a shoestring budget for many years. Suffice to see the tanks currently deployed in BKK. 1950s' vintage I'd say. Very well maintained though.

In many Third World countries, the army is not an instrument of foreign policy, but rather a player in internal politics. Doing that effectively does not require large defence spending. Thailand is not in the best terms with any of their neighbors, but there is no talk of them going to war with any of them.

[Brotherrabitt]

Come on, people all should have a mind searching for the truths. As long as people are moving forward in search of the truth, disagreements being a vital part of searching itself, we all are on the right track. The worse thing is that people stop questioning the dubious, and simply take all things as the way it should be, the way its is, then how do we human race push forward for furthur progress, for a vital change. I hope this forum can be more polite and more precise about it's dicussions and without all the verbal knock outs.

BA

Please do not take this as an attack or criticism, because it is not intended as such, but your statements are full of assumptions about what is "right" and "wrong" whilst they should be about definitions and cultural values.

Just some questions to show you what I mean:

- "people all should have a mind searching for the truths" - why ? isn't searching for harmony much better for society ? and if an individual member of our group is hurt by the truth, shouldn't we lie to protect him ? (Small example: two co-workers drive home after a party, having had too much too drink, and hit a pedestrian. Police comes and asks the passenger if the driver had been drinking and if so how much. US,UK, NL would tell the truth, as lying to the authorities would brand them as "unreliable". FR, JAP and probably Thai would lie, as hurting a co-worker would brand them "unreliable". So who is right or wrong ?)

-"disagreements being a vital part of searching itself" - disagreements can destroy the functioning of a group, which as such could destroy society, so why is it vital ? Maybe disagreements need to be avoided at all costs.

-"the right track" - ok, this implies progress is linneair, well maybe it is not, maybe it's a circle, or some other shape.

- "then how do we human race push forward for furthur progress" - define "progress", is "pushing" positive or is an "organic" approach healthier ?

- "for a vital change", why is change always good ? and when is something "vital", defined by who, in what context ?

As you are an international manager operating is many different cultures, I suggest you read up a little, understand a little more that every word you use is an "absolute" in your culture, but in others maybe not. The whole idea that there is a hierarchy of cultures is absurd to me in any case.

Read "The seven cultures of Capitalism" and "Building Cross-Cultural Competence - How to create wealth from conflicting values" both written by co-writers Charles Hampden-Turner and Fons Trompenaars. Exciting stuff ;).

[Phantomtiger2]

The U.S. slaps Thailand with sanctions:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5390284.stm


Just a way for the US govt to say to the world of the displeasure for the coup. Just making a political statement rather than an economic one.
24million- thats all?--just a drop in the bucket as this cant even buy one good tank or fighter jet these days.
Just look at how the US gives Pakistan, Israel, Colombia etc. several BILLION to each country every year--now thats real money and that will hurt if that amt was cut.

PT

[Buko Max]

Just look at how the US gives Pakistan, Israel, Colombia etc. several BILLION to each country every year
Yes for sure. Musharraf took over Pakistan with a military coup so what does that tell us?

[Blond Alien]

are thais mentally manipulated? you decide yourself.

i was quite curious how bad is the thai authority interfering the education systems.
i collected many e-mails of southeast asian study professors, thai and non-thais, from various universities websites from us including many from the ivy league and europe and also some college teachers in thailand through websites or references. i also wrote to many thai embassies and consulates. lastly i also wrote to many major human right organizations. i wrote them the same e-mail asking if the thai authority controls all school curriculums.

i got many replies from college teachers, many of them are thais teaching overseas, some of the replies were so detailed and so long took me hours to read through them.
many human right organizations also gave me replies. and no reply at all from any thai embassies and consulates.

i will summarize the finding. the school texts from elementary levels to high school levels are basically written and given by the authority. the college and post college texts concerning the thai history, politics, and of course the monarch are all carefully monitored practically word by word by the authority. any teacher of these subjects have to follow the frame work given by the authority. if any teacher trys to teach a few hidden secrets, he will be in truckloads of troubles.

so all thais view their nation, view their history, view their monarch strictly through the eyes of the authority. this process starts from the first day of kindergarten till the last day of the post graduate school. thais only understands their history and their monarch exactly the way the authority wants them to understand. a thai college professor who lives in us wrote in his e-mail, quote:

“all courses about thai history, politics, and the monarch are simply state propagandas. the teachers of these subjects are simply enforcers of these state propagandas.”

some member asked how can i confirm that the thais are brain washed? i guess my research tells the answer quite clearly.

i don’t recall this extend of interference and control in education by any state authority exept probably north korea and myanmar. even in cuba, university are quite liberal and have no problem criticizing the revolution or castro’s policies.

some member said “you cannot look at thailand through farang eyes”. its not a matter of farang eyes, or russian eyes, or indian eyes. it’s the universal eyes, the universal values. these values of course include human rights and democracy, but also include the freedom to think, freedom to ask for the truth, freedom to seek for the truth, freedom to know the truth.

not too long ago all these countries were under absurd dictatorship:
argentina, brazil, chile, spain, portugal, czech, poland, korea, taiwan, ect ect list go on and on. but the universal values all have prevailed in these countries. they have achieved true democracy by enforcing the universal values, as a result people’s intellect also sharply rises so as the people’s quality of living and their state of economy. people have benefited from the transition to true democracy in all these countries.

people who said you cannot look at thailand through farang eyes, would probably say the same thing when chile was under pinochet, when spain was under franco, or when taiwan was under generalismo chang kai-shek.

people who said this type of things are passive people. all these countries achieved true democracy with lots of outside help. conscious people from other countries, and the returning students from overseas ect were vital in injecting the universal values little by little into their society. when these values sink deeper and deeper into the minds of the general public, then a major push for change will be like an unstoppable tsunami. it has happened in all these countires i mentioned. and the most important, the society as a whole have benefited from these precious values.

thailand under the military junta and now the new puppet government has again banned all intellectual voices that speak outside of their framework including the last intellectual voice in thailand, the internet. websites such as midnight university as well as many others that sponsored freedom of thoughts and speech are all forced to closed down. “now there is no outlet of free thinking in thailand anymore. now even all the academic discussions are practically banned and controlled especially the topics of monarch, politics, the coup ect, “ as i was told by a college professor in thailand through e-mail.

thailand is still a immature democracy. although it has elections, but there is absolutely no freedom of thought and freedom of speech. no even freedom to ask questions in their society concerning many subjects. 99.99 percent of the masses are thinking the way the authority injected them from the first day of kindergarten. but fortunately there are still some conscious thinkers. but unfortunately they are all probably professor level elites and many of them reside overseas.

next posting i will discuss how the thai king achieved his heavenly status. lots of thai college professors in and out of thailand and many human right organizations are very helpful in providing me with maybe too much details. a lot of things are not what it seems to be. many people know the thais love their king, revere their king, worship their king, but may not know the causes of it. simply speaking the answer lies in military, military and military. how the king lured the military to his side for “mutual benefits” starting 50 years ago. of course in conjunction with the absolute state control of all medias and education systems on this matter. a living god is borne.

“the root of evil is ignorance”: aung sang suu kyi

some authority certainly are trying to keep their people tamed and ignorant to preserve their interests, power and privileges.

i will discuss my further finding in next posting. i am off to discuss about president lula and hugo chavez in other forums first.

[Traveler1234]

Are Thais mentally manipulated? You decide yourself.

So all Thais view their nation, view their history, view their monarch strictly through the eyes of the authority. This process starts from the first day of kindergarten till the last day of the post graduate school. Thais only understands their history and their monarch exactly the way the authority wants them to understand. A Thai college professor who lives in US wrote in his e-mail, quote:

I don’t recall this extend of interference and control in education by any state authority exept probably North Korea and Myanmar. Even in Cuba, university are quite liberal and have no problem criticizing the revolution or Castro’s policies.


You should have emailed me also - to be brief because your argument is frought with errors, bad logic and simplistic conclusion - several examples of where the curiculum is written by a centralized Ministry of Education (or equivalent):

Taiwan - until recently they knew nothing of the KMT massacres of the local Taiwanese when they repatriated back in '49. Notwithstanding your own opinion of the Chinese on the mainland, guess what the Taiwan textbooks said about Mao, etc.?

Japan - no mention of atrocities in China.

These are just two examples of where there are glaring omissions of historical events. But putting that aside such obvious errors, as a general rule, Taiwan, Japan and at least Malaysia, Singapore, Korea are also all state managed.

Btw, I am in the educational assessment business and intimately involved at all levels of govt in Asia when it centers on education.

[Old Thai Hand]

Blond Alien

Firstly, I'd like to know what your agenda is in all this simplistic mumbo-jumbo you are spouting.

Traveler 1234 is correct in his assessment of your spurious analysis. Are we to take your word that you did all this research? Where is your hard evidence other than the extremely vague and unconvincing information that you present? Who are your sources? You can't make declarative statements without backing them up with empirical evidence. Obviously, your own education is somewhat suspect since this fundamental of writing a thesis and proving it seems to have escaped you. Since, I stated before that I am a professor here, why didn't you email me, too and T1234 as he suggested?

I have been a Farang university professor in Thailand for 10 years. I have among other things taught Thai culture here and have NEVER been restricted in anything I said with regards to that culture, including assessments and critiques of Thai authority and institutions. For example, during the Taksin regime, I was a loud critic of his policies and methods and used him largely in a negative way as an example in illustrating a number of different issues. Nobody ever came and told me to stop. You cite Cuba as an example. I dare say that if a university professor, especially a foreign one, (if they actually have any) spoke negatively about Castro, he'd be in jail, if Cuban and on the next plane out, if foreign.
As far as the Thai primary and secondary education system goes, it has improved greatly over the last 10 years. A centralized system with standardized curriculum doesn't mean it is subject to state propoganda or that it is a bad idea. It is actually about quality control. The Canadian education system is fairly centralized and state-run and having taught in both the US and Canada, I would state that the Canadian education system is superior to the American one. Within the Thai system there is a lot of latitude at the school level both in terms of textbooks and curriculum. They don't mandate that such-and-such a textbook must be used throughout the country, or else teachers will be in trouble. That's rubbish, pure and simple.

I don't want to attack you point for point because you are simply wrong and again, ill-informed on pretty much all fronts. The fundamental point you make about propaganda in Thai texts and curriculum is the biggest error. We choose our own textbooks and curriculum. In my case, I am pretty free to teach what I deem appropriate. Nobody has ever told me what I can and cannot teach. That alone destroys your central argument.

Again, I don't know what your agenda is. But, you seem hell-bent on attacking Thais and Thailand. I'd simply like to know, why?

[Blond Alien]

Old Asian Hand,

Can you and your Thai and non-Thai professor colleagues discuss openly the pro and con of the monarch in the classrooms? Can you and your Thai and non-Thai colleagues question or criticize the policies, the traditions, the behaviours, and the financial status ect ect of the king and his family in your classrooms? Can you answer the questions for me. I have also post the the same questions to many Thai and non-Thai college professors in and out of Thailand. The answer I got unfortunately was quite negative.

I am a critic of the Thai systems not the people itself. The Thai people are innocent themselves. I am also a harsh critic of many systems around the world including the so-called most democratic nations of Germany and Austria. I have been a harsh critic of the thought crime that still exist in Austria and Germany where the denial of Holocaust is a crime and can be punished.

This is the most barbaric law that ever existed in our modern human history. No matter how extreme of one's thought such as denial of Holocaust, no one should be punished for it.

[Blond Alien]

I met up with some of my international monger friends last night. We had some interesting discussions. Its definitely in the interests of we mongers to keep this land tamed and ignorant. To keep true democracy and universal values out of this land.

I have an quick example to share. When I was a kid, I overheard a conversation between my papa and his pals. They were bragging that they can get super young and beautiful girls in Czech and Poland for the price of a Big Mac.

But as the democracy and universal values prevailed in these countries, so is the people's intellect, unfortunately so is the price of the ladies. Today if you want some super young and beatiful lady in Czech or Poland, be prepare to burn at least 100 Euros. Even the old Slavik mama will ask you at least 50 Euros. Oh, no that's the price of democracy!!!

Can you imagine one day, all these little girls in Issan aim to become a CEO. And the old wrinkled lady in Soi Cowboy with multi-pregnacy demand 2500 for ST.

It's definitely in the interests of our monger brothers, including me sometimes, that Thais are better to stay poor and ignorant, so we can still enjoy more economical sex in the future. Okay, I will discuss more sexual encounters now, and forget about the universal values for the time beig. Ha ha ha.

[Old Thai Hand]

old asian hand,

can you and your thai and non-thai professor colleagues discuss openly the pro and con of the monarch in the classrooms? can you and your thai and non-thai colleagues question or criticize the policies, the traditions, the behaviours, and the financial status ect ect of the king and his family in your classrooms? can you answer the questions for me. i have also post the the same questions to many thai and non-thai college professors in and out of thailand. the answer i got unfortunately was quite negative.

the short answer is yes. but, i don't criticize the king because i don't think there is much to criticize. he's been a good king and selfless benefactor for his people. by his own admission, he's not "perfect" and said as much in his last birthday speech. he also doesn't agree with the "lessez majeste' law and wants it changed. i have also discussed other members of the royal family with students. but, with the exception of the crown prince, those members have all contributed a lot to the development of this country. you would do well to actually research what the royal family has and continues to do in and outside this country for its benefits, rather than read wikpedia and instantly form an opinion about a country, and its culture and traditions, of which you seem so painfully ignorant.

your post below about mongering and keeping the thais poor and ignorant (as stupid and abhorrent, as it is) appears to be more your speed. your simplistic, childish writing style and shallow views show an incredible lack of education and in-depth thinking processes. i would suggest you refrain from this continual bashing of the king and thailand as it just makes you look like a complete ass.

btw. my handle is old thai hand. not old asia hand. oah is on the china board.

[Merlin Magician]

I look with dismay every day at the rebel uprising issues in the southern provinces. It appears the radical killer type muslims, (not the good, sweet, caring, credible Muslims I have always known) but these radical cruds are creeping into Thailand from trouble spots like Indonesia and parts of Malaysia.

It appears they are increasing their influence in LOS. Look at the general who just pulled off the military coup. He is Muslim, not Buddhist. You know who is influencing him for sure.

I am predicting already that in a less than a few years, the radicals will try to occupy Thailand and turn it into a Muslim dominated society much like what has happened to Indonesia.

It can happen. Look at how the religious right has infiltrated our Republican party. So many so-called Christians now dominate the GOP that it has become a festering wound occupied by many controlling and war-like liars who are so un Jesus-like in every way, including that idiot, Bush. You have to wonder why our upper government is listening every day to the queer haters like the twin morons, Falwell and Robertson.

I am saying they are coming and we need to go see and taste LOS before it is gone.

Pardon me if I may be wrong and I hope don't sound racist because I am not one, but I have a severely strong aversion to living under any government that can't separate church and state.

Stumbling off my soap box...

[Traveler1234]

I am predicting already that in a less than a few years, the radicals will try to occupy Thailand and turn it into a Muslim dominated society much like what has happened to Indonesia.


Will never happen




It can happen. Look at how the religious right has infiltrated our Republican party. So many so-called Christians now dominate the GOP that it has become a festering wound occupied by many controlling and war-like liars who are so un Jesus-like in every way, including that idiot, Bush. You have to wonder why our upper government is listening every day to the queer haters like the twin morons, Falwell and Robertson.

Make sure you go vote in Nov

[Isg Not Msg]

It appears they are increasing their influence in LOS. Look at the general who just pulled off the military coup. He is Muslim, not Buddhist. You know who is influencing him for sure.Yes of course, the King.


I am predicting already that in a less than a few years, the radicals will try to occupy Thailand and turn it into a Muslim dominated society much like what has happened to Indonesia.I am sure the Muslims would love it if it was that easy. It took Islam nearly a century to prevail as the leading religion of the Indonesian archipelago. During the middle ages, it competed with Hinduism and other native traditions before it eventually took root. It’s hard for me to picture Islam taking root in Thailand proper, a devoutly strict Buddhist country with its well-established history and traditions. But then again, what do I know?

[Blond Alien]

I was chatting MSN with 2 Thai college teachers, one in US and one in Thailand. Both are very enthusiastic to offer me knowledges about Thailand and exchanges MSN with me. I think Old Thai Hand is too optimistic about this Thai education system.

I asked them about the studies of the king and the monarch again. They both told me basically the same thing. All the textbooks on the king and the monarch from elementary level to college levels are virtually books of worship and praises and nothing academic about them. I directly asked them if that’s the case then it’s basically propagandas and brain washing materials, yes both agreed to it.

I asked them I heard from a college teacher in Thailand(Old Thai Hand), and he said there is no regulation at all on the use of text materials in the class room. So it is okay to use a textbook that is critical of one of the following: the Thai king, the Thai monarchy system, the royal family, the Thai royal tradition, the Thai royal protocols ect ect?? Both of them answered quite differently to Old Thai Hand. If that’s the case, and someone reports to the authority, then this teacher is very much likely end up in Bangkok Hilton, regardless how academic the discussion it is.

He said there have been college lectureres being arrested for not even slightest criticism but simply stating some logical elementry facts like "king is just another normal human being just like us, but borne to a a special circumstances in our history and time" Quote from spiritual lecturer Sulak Sivaraksa. He was arrested and put in jail for saying that simple universal fact.

Another recent case he gave me was a teacher who questioned the virtue of all the ancient royal protocols like kneeling, crawling, for all servants, royal house staff and for all Thais, are ancient, undemocratic, against human dignity ect. This teacher was arrested ther next day and still in jail for simply academically questioning these ancient barbaric feudal practices. So you get the ideas of interferences and oppression of any free thinking even inside the academic campuses.

Okay, the teacher in US said that not even to the extend of critical but only a few words not favorable to the king and to all the royal topics in a whole textbook, the book, the author, and the teacher who adopts it may be in trouble, if someone reports it, most likely military trouble. He further explained to me lots of other things including something called lese- mejeste. I checked the web for the meaning and it’s history and I found it 100 times even more backward, more sinister, more evil, and more barbaric than the law in Austria and Germany against Holocaust denial.

I guess after all, Opebo is right, this country is just a huge slave cage and only good for economy sex and let’s keep it that way. I am mentally tired to learn so much details of this "amazing Thailand" in only a few days. Time to move on to other more interesting stuffs.

By the way, sorry to get confused with Old Asia Hand and Old Thai Hand. If Old Thai Hand did not sense my sarcasm in my last post, then I guess my English writting still not that good, after all it's more or less my fourth lingo. Lastly it's not a matter of you like to question and discuss about the king's pro and con or not, it's more likely you cannot because the authority is keeping an eye even in university campuses. You may end up like Sulak in jail for an elementary fact. This lese-magonsteen stuff is full of sinister and evil motives, as Aung San Suu Kyi once said" Some authority certainly is trying to keep the people tamed and ignorant to preserve thier interests, power, and privileges.

[Blond Alien]

Old Thai Hands, I read some of your posts, and you really sound like typical Thai feudal authority. Maybe you are one of them.

Every legitimate serious inquiry into the unreasonable Thai feudal system, you label them as bashing or insults. This kind of tone really sounds like Thai feudalism itself.

If you can speak Swedish, or Dutch, or German, I courteously invite you to join some other very serious and heavy discussions like zionism, Palestinian issues, global warming, secrets and cover ups regarding our universe, our human origin, the multi-dimensions, the space and time, ect ect on many other non-English forums.

[Old Thai Hand]

Merlin
T1234 is correct. It will never happen.

First of all, only 3% of Thailand is Muslim. The problem in the south has to do with independence, or at least autonomy. It is NOT a religious war. Bush wants it to be a religious war to be one more justification for his racist war against Muslims and his brow-beating Thailand into being an ally in his so-called war on terror.

But, you and indeed most of the western media and govenments have this whole thing all wrong. Without going into a long explanation, it is simply a complete lack of understanding of Thai culture, Thai politics and what the fundamental problems are here.
The US and others should keep their collective noses out of affairs here and clean up their own houses.

[Seydlitz]

Every legitimate serious inquiry into the unreasonable Thai feudal system, you label them as bashing or insults. This kind of tone really sounds like Thai feudalism itself.

Blond Alien,

I claim no huge knowledge of Thailand and Thai ways, and there are several regular contributors who have a much better standpoint that I have. You are naturally entitled to your own opinion. What I resent is your apparent lack of factual knowledge. Everything you mention to support your simplistic one-dimensional conclusions is hearsay from dubious sources.

I fail to see why you have that obsession about the Thai monarchy. It appears to be a very effective institution that has served the country well, for hundreds of years, and one that obviously enjoys unanimous local support. If you can converse in Swedish and Dutch then maybe you are from a country that has a royal head of state. Would you have similar criticisms against the King of Sweden, or the Dutch Queen? It is a well documented fact that HM Beatrix of the Netherlands is extremely wealthy, and presumably very influential. Nonetheless she enjoys sky-high popular support and can be seen as a fundamental component of the fabric of society in her country.

All of that does apply to the Thai king just as well. The etiquette at the court of Siam might seem archaic, but one could see it as charming and exotic too. I for one was delighted to visit the chalet of the late Queen Mother on Doi Tung in Chiang Rai, to crawl on the carpet together with tens of Thai tourists and to bow respectfully in front of her portrait. I did not feel insulted or oppressed to have to conform to that protocol.

I met once the crown prince of my own country, and all that was required was a handshake. But a friend of mine met several times the eldest princess of Thailand, and a handshake was all that was required too, as the meeting was taking place outside of Thailand. I really do not believe that there is very much to be concluded from court etiquette.

[Traveler1234]

BANGKOK, Thailand

A top Thai civil court Thursday accepted a lawsuit seeking to cancel licenses given to Thaksin Shinawatra's former business empire for various telecom services, in what could prove another blow to the ousted premier.

Download to read the entire article.

[Old Thai Hand]

i found it 100 times even more backward, more sinister, more evil, and more barbaric than the law in austria and germany against holocaust denial.



are you also suggesting that the law against holocaust denial is barbaric? does that mean that you are one who denies the holocaust? now, that is barbaric. i'm sure 6 million jews would beg to differ.

your so-called sources for your, as seydlitz says " simplistic, one-dimensional conclusions" are suspect if all you can say is that you discussed this or that with some thai professor. i am not optomistic. i speak from personal knowledge and experience, which is more than you do. i live and teach here. i know what i teach and what i can say. i have also met members of the thai royal family and have actually worked for one of them. i dare say that i know considerably more than you.
but, as seydlitz says, you're entitled to your opinion and i can see there is no changing it even with my first-hand experence that counters what you say. so, i won't bother with the likes of you again. your opinion of thailand is shoddy as is that of o**** to whom you refer. people such as you and he are not the best type to be coming here with such attitudes.

[Traveler1234]

Blond Al...

I think you are quickly straying further and further off topic.

You start with a post re how thais don't have the intellect of neighboring countries, lack of analytical skills, etc. etc. And you lay the blame on a feudal monarchy, then wander to a state controlled educational system which is benevolent to the monarchy, how it fosters a feudal system of citizens, blah blah blah.

Honestly, I'd like to get involved in a discussion but not sure what are your major points? And with all due respect to my fellow mongers, WTF talk about it on a sex oriented board?

[Jetmech322]

I was reading some of the posts here and I can't help it! When I read your posts I must interject! Do you people really believe your be. S? Or do you guy's just post these idiotic post's in order to get an reaction from others? !

First to merlin, I am an american sir, and jerry farwell and pat robertson don't make policy for the you. S goverment. They are just two blowhard T. V. Avagelist's! Second, Do you really believe that the President of the united states is a true christian, and follows these religious beliefs in his personal life? He's a politician, and only puts on this face for the public, as all politcians do. He is what we call in the you. S. A. , As a Neo-Con. These people are Socialists who split from other world socialists in the 70's in order to ferther their goals of one world socialism by using money, corporations, and capitolism to acheave this outcome.

Now to OLD THAI HAND, sir you claim to be an teacher and have taught in canada and the you. S. If I remember correctly from one of your previous posts? You must not be an teacher of history, as your knowage of the spread of the muslim religion, and it's peoples seems to me to be lacking of the facts. How else could you come to the conclusion that the Muslim Radical peoples anywhere in the world, who are taking up arms against their ruling governments, are just fighting for their independance? ! ARE YOU SERIOUS? ! Sir I repectively suggest that you pick up a copy of the Koran and start to read it, also the writings of Mohamood when he moved from mecca to medina and started up his army of holy warriors in order to spread his 7th centruy dead cult throughout the world. Also maybe some other history books about this subject. Don't be so foolish to believe that the muslim radicals in the south of Thailand are any different that any other group throughout the world. Their ultinmate goal is the Radical Muslim domination of the entire world- PERIOD! Respectivly Sir I must say, please don't let your Feelings about the good people of Thailand cloud common sense or the facts in this case. If the thai people and their government don't get rid of these Muslim Radicals and soon, I fear thier tactics will start to spread throughout the country of Thailand, as they have in every country of the world where they exist. I my Heart I wish I was wrong, but I know I'm not, as I AM a study of history both current and past. On a personal note- I have many friends retired in Thailand now, and also a special lady with whom I have known for many years now. I love the contry of Thailand, it's gentle peoples, and I would like it to stay that way!

Thank you all for your opinions and input here, Jetmech322.

[Phantomtiger2]

Merlin
T1234 is correct. It will never happen.

First of all, only 3% of Thailand is Muslim. The problem in the south has to do with independence, or at least autonomy. The US and others should keep their collective noses out of affairs here and clean up their own houses.


OTH and Traveler1234 are correct.
Muslims in LOS are such a small minority that their overall power is zip/nada-which is why they resort to terror and violence--I mean come-on, executing helpless monks, shows you their mentality.
The southern region in turmoil was originally a Muslim area already before Thailand took it over. Since then (because they are such a minority), they have always felt ignored and persecuted, racially discriminated etc--whatever you wish to call it. So they want to seek their own state not govern by Thailand--hence Independence.

Now the US (superpower) only bugs in when its in their best interest (normally if there's a profit to be made or it threatens US business interest), otherwise US will just make a statement of objection and not get involved any further.
ex: just look at Darfor and Rawanda in Africa. No real profit or business interest there and no resourses for US to blunder so even with Genocide going on, the US makes a statement to condemn what goes on and then looks the other way.

PT

[Dinghy]

Blond Al...

I think you are quickly straying further and further off topic.

You start with a post re how thais don't have the intellect of neighboring countries, lack of analytical skills, etc. etc. And you lay the blame on a feudal monarchy, then wander to a state controlled educational system which is benevolent to the monarchy, how it fosters a feudal system of citizens, blah blah blah.

Honestly, I'd like to get involved in a discussion but not sure what are your major points? And with all due respect to my fellow mongers, WTF talk about it on a sex oriented board?

well.. it IS the "politics" section after all

Anyway - Blondie, I don't know what ist deine kopfschmerzen (some of us are at least rudimentarily multilingual), but it's downright annoying to have someone come in and start criticizing the system in a political system OUTSIDE THEIR OWN PURVUE. I don't try to "correct the system in Thailand" - I couldn't if I tried. This insistance on the notion that Thailand is a "feudal based" economy and the system is corrupt (won't argue that - but what system isn't). Either accept things the way they are or don't bother going. If you want to be Che, try South America (oh, wait, they have that now...)

[Traveler1234]

well.. it IS the "politics" section after all

You're right but it was created ONLY after the recent coup - jackson moved relevant posts from bangkok reports and living in thailand threads.

What I was trying to say was why continue w/ posts, trying to defend a position that started off in a bad way....anyway, I'll refrain from further posts re Blond Alien after this.

:)

[Dinghy]

You're right but it was created ONLY after the recent coup - jackson moved relevant posts from bangkok reports and living in thailand threads.

What I was trying to say was why continue w/ posts, trying to defend a position that started off in a bad way....anyway, I'll refrain from further posts re Blond Alien after this.

:)

Agree - he rubs me the wrong way too - sort of like in a massage salon where they use SANDPAPER instead of OIL

[Blond Alien]

Do you know why the law against public Holocaust denial is so barbaric? Old Thai Hands. It is still in existance today in Austria and Germany just to please the zionist and the state of Israel. Secondly the meaning of the denial is so arbitrary. If someone disagrees with the number of death of the Jews, is it also a denial? If someone disagrees the numbers of death by gas chamber, is it also considered a denial? This law is a pure oppression of thoughts and oppression to any questioning into the Jewish version of Holocaust.

Holocaust did happen, but anyone has a right to question into the incident. Even someone with distorted view and thinks Holocaust may not be what the historians told us and want to publically speak his view, is his right to do so.

This law is a pure oppression from the zionists and the state of Israel, and I totally abhor that Austria and Germany give in to it. Its a huge human diagrace.

[Blond Alien]

Yes Queen Beatrice and King Gustaf are both very popular. But the difference is if a college teacher in Nedeland says" Queen is only another normal human being, but only borne to special circumstances in our history and time", no one would go to jail for this universal common sensse. It would be a joke even to think about jailing someone. But a collge lecturer named Sulak in Thailand had to spent time in jail for commenting exactly the same universal common sense.

This is the point I am trying to get across. We are condemning, criticizing, this country, because we feel there is something wrong with it, there is something unreasonable, something absurd with it. We are hoping it will progress, hope it will change. We are all speaking from our inner heart that we care and concern about the well being of this country.

Yes, its more fun to talk about sex. 99% of people who come to Thailand do not give a crap about this system. But some of us here are thinking and contemplating and wasting our time here trying to point out something illogical, and hope it will change for the well being of humanity.

[Phantomtiger2]

Agree - sort of like in a massage salon where they use SANDPAPER instead of OIL


Ouch!! hurts just thinking about using sandpaper on my attached member.
Hey I thought this was the place for Political debate , not S&M--ha ha

cheers

PT

[Jetmech322]

To Phantomtiger2,

Sir I find myself once again here defending my country and its policies. Let me start off by saying that I am an american, and although I don't always agree with the elected officials of my government all the time, but then again who would agree 100% of the time with anyone? I have to tell you that I couldn't disagree with you more about your statement about the you. S. You started off by saying that the you. S. Only gets involved in other countrys troubles when it smells a profit to gain. Why then Sir did the you. S. Give billions of dollars and send it's military to all the countrys that were affected by the last Sunami in that area? Was there some hidden treasure to be found among all the dead and dieing? I can tell you that there are many poor americans here that could have used that capitol to help rebuild thier lives after the huricains in the south of my country. And thats just an example of recent history.

Do you have any idea how much of our you. S. Tax dollars are spent on forein aid every year? Sir thats money taken from my Paycheck every month to help the poor and downtroden throughout the world! If you did a little research on your own you might just find out that the United States of America gives more in forein Aid than all the other Damn countries in the world combined! If you don't believe me check the facts and get back to me and tell me where I'm wrong! So the next time you want to talk out of your Backside (I'm TRYING TO BE POLITE HERE AND NOT CURSE) maybe you should check your facts first.

Now you may feel sorry for the poor muslim extremists in the south of Thailand who love to murder inocent people in the name of thier religion, As they are all infedels anyway, not worthy of a life on this planet unless they convert to the muslim religion, but I don't! I know Evil when I see it. Maybe you should travel down to the region of which you speak of yourself and give us all a report on how the non-muslim thais who live in those areas Feel about thier gentle neighbors? But I suggest to you that you may want to think on that trip carefully as YOU may end up having your head removed from your shoulders by way of a rusty dull knife! Once again thank you all for your opinions here,

JETMECH322

[Jetmech322]

again to mr. phantomtiger2,

concerning the ruwanda and darfor situation, i have to ask you why is it our responseibility (the you. s.) to always handle the problems of the world? ! isnt that the great you. n. 's territroy? maybe for the europeion countries who probibly once had or have had some spher of infulence in those areas? why must it alway's be our problem to fix everyones troubles. when we finally do, do something, we get nothing but criticism from the world and all those ball-less wonders at the you. n. for trying to help! come on sir, frankly i think i speek for many americans when i say we're tired of cleaning up everyones messes.

thanks for all your insites and opinions,

jetmech322

[Phantomtiger2]

again to mr. phantomtiger2,

concerning the ruwanda and darfor situation, i have to ask you why is it our responseibility (the you. s.) to always handle the problems of the world? ! isnt that the great you. n. 's territroy? maybe for the europeion countries who probibly once had or have had some spher of infulence in those areas? why must it alway's be our problem to fix everyones troubles. when we finally do, do something, we get nothing but criticism from the world and all those ball-less wonders at the you. n. for trying to help! come on sir, frankly i think i speek for many americans when i say we're tired of cleaning up everyones messes.

thanks for all your insites and opinions,

jetmech322


jetmech,
looks like we touched off a fire for you. remember this is the political thread and therefore everyones open to their views. afterall, isnt democracy great as we are all allowed to express our views, otherwise it'll be a dictatorship and only one view is allowed and all others are jailed or worst.

and no, you misunderstood what i meant. agree it is not any countries responsibilty to fix others problems but just saying us often only involves themselves in other country affairs when their own interests are threaten-it doesnt matter whether right or wrong, but as you pointed out they are involving themselves nevertheless.
give you another ex: invasion of panama by the us. they oust noreiga because he was becoming more anti-american and corrupt. think about it, if the panama canal--(a vital sea link between 2 oceans and used heavily by the us navy and us shipping) was not there, then bet us couldnt care less about a small country like panama, so it was in the "best interest" to invade a foreign country and let me repeat it--a foreign country, so as you pointed out if us shouldnt fix other peoples problems then why make an excuse and invade panama to free the people from a corrupt leader?. i cant even begin to list all the anti-american/ corrupt dictators in central and south america but us will do nothing there because no real us interest there. and dont even get me started with the invasions of grenada or iraq --
as this is a thread for thailand so lets keep it so.

about the relief efforts: you brought up the asian tsumani. well, guess what, i suggest you read some more news articles as its widely known and critized by many countries that it was the american public (thru private donations)and not the us govt (your taxes) that was mostly responsible for many of the worlds disaster relief, including the tsunami. also, money given as foreign policy is often a joke. design for political gains. many that dont really need it gets loads of money (even oil rich countries get us foreign aid)--why? claim to help build infrastructure and stability=meaning keep more oil flowing to us . many countries that are dirt poor and really needs the aid will often receive little or nothing, (bet you, if they found huge oil reserves in these countries then massive foreign aid would suddenly flow into them) again to promote their "own best interest".

note: for your info, i have been to the south of los in question and love the people there and i was only talking about the few token radicals that are the real problems and not the entire population in general. i always put blame where its due. if you havent guessed by now by all my posts i love los and only have problems with the few that gives it a bad name.

ps, i do commend you on your patriotism, theres nothing wrong with that.

cheers

pt

[Duniawala]

J322

Just read your opinions and had to give you a feedback regards your history.

1. It was the christians who started the so forced conversion of non-christians into christians back in the old days. The muslims started it now, but they forget they are not in the middle ages. Those muslims not involved in the violence are spreading their religion by having as many children as possible. No wonder the pope does not want birth control to counter this offensive.

2. The US (or you S. as you say it) is historically known to support the wrong dictator/ruler at the wrong time and at the wrong places. Too many cases to mention. Then when that action comes back to bite its butt then US washes it's hands off or use it's milatary might. Iraq is a great example.

3. US foreign policy has been hypocritical in a lot of cases. It fights for Kuwait, but not for Tibet which has been occupied for decades. It went to Bosnia only when it got shamed on the world stages, etc. ad nauseam.

4. It gives foreign aid to nations suffering from famine, with a rider that it cannot promote birth control. Why? So that the nation can produce more kids and have more famine?

5. It cannot/does not support it's neighbor Mexico, to get to be a 1st world country. How else would it get cheap labor for the jobs no Amrikan would take.

One could go on and on. But in the interest of world peace I think we should all join hands together, and promote sex and fun for everyone instead of violence and criticizing each other's countries. And I think the pope should get rid of the celibacy rules. It would surely reduce the sexual abuse charges rocking the clergy.

Peace and sex to all.

[Tiger 888]

J322

Just read your opinions and had to give you a feedback regards your history.

1. It was the christians who started the so forced conversion of non-christians into christians back in the old days. The muslims started it now, but they forget they are not in the middle ages. Those muslims not involved in the violence are spreading their religion by having as many children as possible. No wonder the pope does not want birth control to counter this offensive.

2. The US (or you S. as you say it) is historically known to support the wrong dictator/ruler at the wrong time and at the wrong places. Too many cases to mention. Then when that action comes back to bite its butt then US washes it's hands off or use it's milatary might. Iraq is a great example.

3. US foreign policy has been hypocritical in a lot of cases. It fights for Kuwait, but not for Tibet which has been occupied for decades. It went to Bosnia only when it got shamed on the world stages, etc. ad nauseam.

4. It gives foreign aid to nations suffering from famine, with a rider that it cannot promote birth control. Why? So that the nation can produce more kids and have more famine?

5. It cannot/does not support it's neighbor Mexico, to get to be a 1st world country. How else would it get cheap labor for the jobs no Amrikan would take.

One could go on and on. But in the interest of world peace I think we should all join hands together, and promote sex and fun for everyone instead of violence and criticizing each other's countries. And I think the pope should get rid of the celibacy rules. It would surely reduce the sexual abuse charges rocking the clergy.

Peace and sex to all.
I was digging out a song by Tom Lehrer today(USA 1965) , that says it all

When someone makes a move
Of which we don't approve,
Who is it that always intervenes?
U.N. and O.A.S.,
They have their place, I guess,
But first - send the Marines!

We'll send them all we've got,
John Wayne and Randolph Scott;
Remember those exciting fighting scenes?
To the shores of Tripoli,
But not to Mississippoli,
What do we do? We send the Marines!

For might makes right,
And till they've seen the light,
They've got to be protected,

All their rights respected,
Till somebody we like can be elected.

Members of the corps
All hate the thought of war;
They'd rather kill them off by peaceful means.
Stop calling it aggression,
Ooh, we hate that expression!
We only want the world to know
That we support the status quo.
They love us everywhere we go,
So when in doubt,
Send the Marines!

[Old Thai Hand]

Tiger

I think this song by Randy Newman (Political Science, 1972) witten from the POV of an American right-winger is more a propos and although 30 years old, is sadly relevant today.


No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paris
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now

[Tiger 888]

OTH, very true, and times seem not to get better.

[Traveler1234]

Thailand Stands by Markets
Thaksin Is Gone,
But Economic Policies
Remain After Coup
By JAMES HOOKWAY
October 9, 2006; Page A8

BANGKOK, Thailand -- The selection of Pridiyathorn Devakula, the governor of Thailand's central bank, as finance minister in the country's new military-installed interim government signals that Bangkok is likely to continue its free-market, growth-oriented economic policies...

Read on.....

[Jetmech322]

To Phantomtiger2,

First I respect everyones right to express thier views and opinions, no matter how rediculious and misguided! Of course the united states is alway's looking after it's own interests, what country doesn't? What really got me going was to me you made a blanket statment about the united states and it's policies and history. To me you made it sound like america is some rogue out of control imperialist nation. Then you site examples like Panama, grenada, and iraq, without qualifing them with the reasons for our involvement there. Then after making these simplistic idiotic comments, you then step off the subject by saying, that this thread is for Thailand politics so lets not talk about it here. Well excuse me sir! I DIDN'T BRING UP THE UNITED STATES HERE, YOU DID! So now you've got me REALLY interested in your opinions about my country's involvement in your example countries. In your opinion why did we invade these countries, if not to free them from from thier corropt leaders? Are we now like the former soviet union? I don't believe we now occupy Panama or grenada, and I believe that they both now have thier own elected governments by their own citizens. Now as far as Iraq is concerned, yes we are still involved there and I expect we will be there for sometime. I also believe Iraq is having it's own free and fair elections for the first time in thier history. I also believe the shiite majority will have no problem stringing up thier former dictator soon, and my hats off to them. But could they have done this without the help of the evil rogue united states? The united states is and has always been involved in world politics, Hell people, we're now the only world superpower! Maybe thats the big rub for some people I. E. The europeions, russians, chinese, and the united nations etc. Etc, etc. Envy and jeliosy and such, of course that is human nature so I'm not suprised.

Now it's also true that the United States has had to look the other way when dealing with dictators and tyrants, just look at roosevelts partner ship with the likes of Stalin during WWII. But tell me what were we suppose to do about germany under hitler and japan under hirohito, just look the other way, as the world does now when dealing with islamic crazies, and hope they would'nt attack us after they took europe and asia? So please sir, don't make your blanket statements about My country and try to compare us to the likes of england, france, and spain during their imperialist pasts, or germany and japan, the former soviet union and it's captured warsaw pact nations. I'm not going to let you get away with it here.

So go on and make your stupid comments about my country, have your play time, and sleep well at night knowing that we here in America are once again on the front lines for the world, saving all your bacon yet again! Burying our young, brave, men and women to free the world of yet another bunch of A-HOLES, while the rest of the world sits on thier asses and hope the bad guy's will pass them by.

Let me just finish my statement by humbily thanking all the brave men and women who have taken up this struggle with us from the other nations of the world. They have done so at thier own parrell, and will not get the respect they deserve from the rest of the world, as we here in america don't. But I believe history will show us to be in the right, as in WWII.

Once again thank you all for your comments and opinions

JETMECH322

[Phantomtiger2]

[QUOTE=Jetmech322]To Phantomtiger2,

. Well excuse me sir! I DIDN'T BRING UP THE UNITED STATES HERE, YOU DID!

Answer:Once again, Had you looked back this is Not true as I was answering an opinion from OTH from post #179

----------------------------------------------------------------
Let me just finish my statement by humbily thanking all the brave men and women who have taken up this struggle with us from the other nations of the world. They have done so at thier own parrell, and will not get the respect they deserve from the rest of the world, as we here in america don't. But I believe history will show us to be in the right, as in WWII.


Answer:And I do thank you for that statement as I have served with the US Air Force and my country with both honor and distinction during the first Gulf/Iraq war under the only true President Bush (Sr) , not the current (Jr).--again-- my view only.
And I would do so again without hesitation if I was called upon.
It is because of people like me and many that I had know that died for the US that defend our rights to express how we feel without fear or retribution.
Without knowing me, DO NOT make me out to be Anti-American , because I'm NOT, as I had volunteered and risked my life for my country (can I say the same for you?)
I may not always agree with what our govt does,(foreign policies, domestic policies, etc etc) infact even our own Congress have never agreed with each other (just ask a Democrat what he thinks of the Republicans policies etc etc etc.) But, it is for these simple freedoms that I had risked all so that even YOU can express your thoughts.

BTW: If you are such an American patriot, Please, please at least know the country you are so proud of defending. There is NO country called the "you s."
Some of my departed friends would be rolling over in their graves at Arlington cemetery for they did not die in Iraq for the "you s.", they died for the good old "USA"

So now the record is straight, so Good day and lets get back on topic.

PT

[Jetmech322]

To Phantomtiger2,

Let me start off by saying that i do know that there is no country called or spelled the You-s??? I thought i typed" U.S." in my post here ,and dont know why it came out that way??? Sorry about that- perhaps it was a software glitch.Now let me also thank you for your service to our country, and yes to answer your question i have served in the armed forces of the United States.In the army from 1981-1982 IN THE 82ND ABN,AND 1982-1986 IN B 2/75 RANGERS.I to have lost friends in battle,some of those during Operation Urgent Fury ,at Point Salines Airfield On the island of Grenada,OCT 25,1983. Perhaps this was one of the reasons for my quick and unhappy response to your posts.It is good that we can express our points of view here,even though we disagree at times about politics,but we can always agree to be loyal americans ,am i right about this? So i will not back down on my political views- lol, but i will try to be more tolerant of others views here in the future.Fair enough??

As always ,thanks for your comments and opinions here,

JETMECH322.

[Jetmech322]

To Phantomtiger2,

I tried to send a response to your post last night.I checked this morning but it hasn't posted yet. I would like to send you a private messege here so we don't have to go around and around like this, and don't want to waste others time here on this. I just signed up for a membership here, and don't know when it will go through, maybe one business day. Yes i am former military during the 1980's (U.S. Army).

Thanks to all for your comments and opinions,

JetMech322.

[Phantomtiger2]

to phantomtiger2,

let me start off by saying that i do know that there is no country called or spelled the you-s??? i thought i typed" u.s." in my post here ,and dont know why it came out that way??? sorry about that- perhaps it was a software glitch.now let me also thank you for your service to our country, and yes to answer your question i have served in the armed forces of the united states.in the army from 1981-1982 in the 82nd abn,and 1982-1986 in b 2/75 rangers.i to have lost friends in battle,some of those during operation urgent fury ,at point salines airfield on the island of grenada,oct 25,1983. perhaps this was one of the reasons for my quick and unhappy response to your posts.it is good that we can express our points of view here,even though we disagree at times about politics,but we can always agree to be loyal americans ,am i right about this? so i will not back down on my political views- lol, but i will try to be more tolerant of others views here in the future.fair enough??

as always ,thanks for your comments and opinions here,

jetmech322.

well said and more than fair and loyal above all else.
i'm glad you cleared that up as we were beginning to think you were a radical extremist--(the ones we are trying to get rid of in this world),but just glad you are just expressing your views with a bit of fiery emotion to it--guess there is nothing wrong with that---lol
also, no need to back down on your political views as that is one of the fundamental priniciples that makes our country great= democracy and freedom of speech and expression.
sorry as i didnt mean to insult you about "you s." but i just found it odd coming from a die hard american.

ah, now i see where our underlying views are so different.
you are army and i'm air force--need i say more?--as no military branch had ever agreed on anything--lol

peace bro.

pt

[Jetmech322]

Is this a test? Cause I'm not going there! lol. Yea sure by all means Old Thai Hand lets get back to the topic at hand.Humm? I must confess I don't know Much if anything about Thai politics, as I've only been there four times.I do know that it's a beautiful country, and the lady's there are quite friendly (he-he). I do have a lady friend in Pattaya that i talked with on monday.She told me not to worry about the coup or anything about Thailand as everything is back to normal now, and to hurry back soon and bring me some more Baht! LOL.

Thanks,

JETMECH322

PS: Roger that Phantomtiger2, -break- , Jetmech322 out!

[Old Thai Hand]

also, no need to back down on your political views as that is one of the fundamental priniciples that makes our country great= democracy and freedom of speech and expression.
pt


gentleman

since this the thai politics thread, could you please save the rah-rah american, democracy, freedom of speech bullshit rhethoric for another thread.

thanks

[Phantomtiger2]

As this is a thread for Thailand so lets keep it so.


Cheers

PT


I thought I said that already.

Cheers

[Traveler1234]

I read most of that book while on transit in Singapore airport. I found it very much in support of what I perceived to be HM's person and achievements.

Book finally came in and had time this weekend to read the first few chapters, which really sets the stage for his ascension to the throne. Very interesting background chapters and so far, highly recommend to anyone interested in the King.

[Opebo]

firstly one note on the usa discussion - certainly i find the us to be a horrible and unfree place, but this doesn't change the fact that thailand is also quite bad. their saving graces are respectively the 'freedom of speech' thing, and the toleration of prostitution. as much as i dislike my homeland, i think the constitutional protection of freedom of speech (and most importantly porn) is surviving the bush administration, so it will probably survive anything in our lifetimes, while by contrast toleration of prostitution is disappearing in this sad land.

which brings me to my question: perhaps some of you have noted my report on the sudden and severe crackdown in the formerly tolerant city of udon thani ('other areas', thailand). does anyone have any knowledge or theories as to what has caused this? the houses in question were patronized mostly by thais, and staffed mostly be lao girls, presumably 'illegal'. one wonders if these draconian policies (complete closure) are the result of pressure from above or some local prudery? it certainly seems to be a trend throughout thailand and the world generally towards less freedom and greater social control, but what is the source?

i know it is tempting for some members of this board to claim that 'it will all go back to normal', usually after some local election or the payment of some greater bribe than before, but i think to believe this is to stick one's head in the sand. there appears to be 'morality' at work here, the death knell for freedom and a reasonable, hedonistic life.

[Meaty]

The houses in question were patronized mostly by Thais, and staffed mostly be Lao girls, presumably 'illegal'. ...draconian policies (complete closure) are the result of pressure from above or some local prudery? .... towards less freedom and greater social control, but what is the source? The houses in question charged between 200 and 300 baht (USD4-8) a shag from girls who had no 'freedom' and certainly no 'control' over their lives, sold into the unfortunate position of being in a human cage and shagged endlessly by local Thai labourers and the odd 'control freak tightarsed farrang' for a pittence. IMHO the closure/crackdown of these type of places is a good thing, and far from draconian.
For P4P in Udon there are several beer bars operating in a similar way to Bangkok and aimed more at farrangs i will read your report to see if these were affected.

[Opebo]

The houses in question charged between 200 and 300 baht (USD4-8) a shag from girls who had no 'freedom' and certainly no 'control' over their lives, sold into the unfortunate position of being in a human cage and shagged endlessly by local Thai labourers and the odd 'control freak tightarsed farrang' for a pittence. IMHO the closure/crackdown of these type of places is a good thing, and far from draconian.
For P4P in Udon there are several beer bars operating in a similar way to Bangkok and aimed more at farrangs i will read your report to see if these were affected.

No, the bars of which you speak were not effected by this particular crackdown, but presumabely they are next.

As for your in depth knowledge of the houses in question, it is completely baseless. What reason do you have to believe the nonsense you posted? Perhaps you read it off of some NGO's website, or in your Bible. In any case, why should one care? It seems to me you forget who you are, monger. We are brothers. Refer to any post by Humble Turd for further explication.

And 300 baht is not a pittance at all, Meaty - it is a lot more than the laborers of which you speak make in a day of toil, and the girls recieve it for 30 minutes of the easiest kind of labour. In fact if I had to hazard a guess as to the economic class of the Thai gentlemen patronizing the houses, it would be lower-middle class. They were mostly well dressed, young, and urban, and none of them had the sunburned skin of a farmer.

[Jetmech322]

firstly one note on the usa discussion - certainly i find the us to be a horrible and unfree place, but this doesn't change the fact that thailand is also quite bad. their saving graces are respectively the 'freedom of speech' thing, and the toleration of prostitution. as much as i dislike my homeland, i think the constitutional protection of freedom of speech (and most importantly porn) is surviving the bush administration, so it will probably survive anything in our lifetimes, while by contrast toleration of prostitution is disappearing in this sad land.

which brings me to my question: perhaps some of you have noted my report on the sudden and severe crackdown in the formerly tolerant city of udon thani ('other areas', thailand). does anyone have any knowledge or theories as to what has caused this? the houses in question were patronized mostly by thais, and staffed mostly be lao girls, presumably 'illegal'. one wonders if these draconian policies (complete closure) are the result of pressure from above or some local prudery? it certainly seems to be a trend throughout thailand and the world generally towards less freedom and greater social control, but what is the source?

i know it is tempting for some members of this board to claim that 'it will all go back to normal', usually after some local election or the payment of some greater bribe than before, but i think to believe this is to stick one's head in the sand. there appears to be 'morality' at work here, the death knell for freedom and a reasonable, hedonistic life. to opebo,

first of all, i find your statement about the you. s. to be absurd. really sir -horrible and un free? what "u.s." are you refering to and what planet are you from? let me just say that i have been lucky in my life to have traveled the world over, and i have never visited a conutry who is more tollerant of ridiculous statements, and cooky views than that of the united states, to it's own detriment i might add. by reading your posts i find that you have a big problem with morality and the bible. well sir that is your opinion, and you are intitled to it. but wouldn't you agree that in all countries, the majority of the populations (the average folks) feel that prostitution belongs only in the seedy side of socialities? you claim that you dislike your own homeland, and i find that to be quite sad indeed. but if you dislike it so much, there are many other places on this earth where you could be happy. just a thought, and good luck to you finding that perfect place in which you seek.

once again thanks for all your views and opinions,

jetmech322

[Giotto]

As usual Thai politics is difficult to understand. But the way Thai officials are dealing with the bombing issue of New Year Day is – let’s say it carefully: very very difficult to understand. Isn’t the fact that bombs were detonated in Bangkok bad enough, do we really need this government-and-CNS-discussion about the background/masterminds in this moment?

Who did it? What are the options? What is the possible political motivation of the bombings?

1.) Thaksin Friendly Political Groups

The first rumours said, that Thaksin friendly political groups were behind the bomb attacks. Their motivation was to weaken the actual interim government and enable Thaksin to return to power.

My first reaction to this thesis was: Impossible. If Thaksin can be connected somehow to this attacks on mainly Thai people he is politically and economically dead in Thailand. He would never be re-elected, and all his assets would be seized by the CNS (Council for National Security, 8 Generals, the Coup Makers) . They are only waiting for a reason to doing so. They are only looking for a scapegoat, and of course Thaksin would be the preferred one.

Now, whatever we think about Thaksin, this man is not stupid. Personally he is for sure NOT the mastermind of this attacks. That would be too easy anyway.

Whether political groups around Thaksin could be behind it – I also doubt it. They don’t have the knowledge and infrastructure to prepare this simultaneous attacks. It is also not their style of political confrontation. The actual weak government gives them enough options to argue in the moment, and their support in the North still exists. Mass demonstrations in the North would be their first step if they wanted to regain strength or even power right now, but not bomb attacks.

2.) Muslim Separatists from the South

Based on the latest information there is a possibility that the muslim separatists from the very South of Thailand (Malay speaking) can be linked to the attacks. Intelligence reports from this morning indicates that the construction of the bombs were “similar” to those used in the South, but not “same”. Before it was nearly ruled out, that those bombs were built from the Southern separatists.

I consider this option still as very unlikely, though some ill-brained extremists from the South might be capable to perform those attacks. But generally the separatists of the South should have no intention to move the unrest from the South to the capital. They can only lose. The actual government is much more willing to compromise with their issues. Gen. Sonthi is a muslim himself, to weaken his position would be a political mistake for the separatists.

The reaction from the army would be strong, if the attacks could be linked to the Southern separatists. The army would answer with all their strength, and that’s should not be what the separatists want and need in the moment.

In my POV it is very likely that the Southern separatists were NOT masterminding the bombings.

3.) CNS

Rumours that the CNS itself could have initiated this attacks and intended to stage a second coup were discussed yesterday. Another crazy idea – really?

The government of Prime Minister Surayud is working not very successfully in the moment. The latest flop was the BoT capital import restriction, which lead to massive losses on the stock market and worsens Thailands growth perspective for the next months / 2 years. Surayud is said to deal too soft with the corruption issue of the old government, he is said to be too weak for the job.

Now the CNS should have the power anyway, and they should not need to build bombs. They could easily replace the Prime Minister, if they wanted a change. What else could be their motivation?

One possible reason could be that they got information about preparation of a counter coup. To prevent this from happening they initiated the bombings to tighten their grip to power. They can now easily perform necessary troop movements, they again shifted troops to the key locations in Bangkok. Possible – but unlikely. They had other means for such a case. And – they still have the support of HM The Ki*g.

The second reason could be the ongoing unrest in the South. It is escalating. There were again brutal murders of teachers and high officials down there, and the army could look for a reason to end their attempt to go for a peaceful solution. But also unlikely – if that was the plan we would have heard clear indications and rumours about Southern masterminds immediately after the detonations – everything would have been prepared for that, faked evidences and witnesses etc. etc. .

No, it is unlikely that the CNS is responsible for this bombings.

4.) CNS Opposition Within the Army / “Old Power” Friendly Army/Police

Everybody knows that the old political power had strong support from large parts of the army, but especially from nearly all the police in Thailand. And – lets get that straight – police and army have the real power here in Thailand.

That means that a lot of people in those organization lost considerably on power, and their outlook for their careers is also not too positive any more. Many high officials in those organizations were moved to meaningless jobs, deactivated in a way, and they are looking for ways to get out of this career deadlock.

One way to regain old strength would be that the old power participates in the future government after the next elections. The weaker and more vulnerable the actual interim government looks – the more Thai people would want the old “strong” government to return to power.

The old government was seen as the architect of a stabile growth of the economy after the Asian Crisis 1997 / 1998. Though their were NOT the architects of that recovery (that was Chuan Lek Pai, a Democrat) they took all credit of the positive development of the Thai economy of the past few years. To destabilize the economy, and to show that the actual government and the CNS cannot even assure safety in the Bangkok could completely turn around the actual negative vote favour towards the old power.

I find it very disturbing that one of the big names of Thailands past occurs in the actual discussion: the name of General Chavalit. If this name is mentioned in a discussion with Thais they still today “cover and duck”. Everybody is scared of this man, nobody wants to have any problems with him or his supporters. He is very famous for a number of “glorious” events in the history of Thailand.

General Chavalit was not known as a special friend of the former prime minister, but they obviously found an arrangement to work together. General Chavalit was a long time deputy prime minister under Thaksin. And now his name was mentioned from the CNS in connection with the bombings. And the way this discussion is lead is even for Thai customs very unusual:

Here an example of the actual level of “argumentation” between officials of the CNS and General Chavalit:
BEGIN:
"I will not stoop to retaliate against Chavalit and I hope the public will be the judge to compare between my family background and a shyster," CNS assistant secretary General Saprang Kalayanamitr said, referring to his aristocratic roots.
"Let him talk and I will not rebut, because he will soon be dead," an aide quoted Chavalit as saying in a rejoinder to Saprang's remarks.
END.
No, this is not a joke. This is the way we are discussion serious political issues in Thailand! Here the report in The Nation: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/01/05/politics/politics_30023320.php

OK, let’s get away from General Chavalit, he is normally too old for playing a major role in the political game of the future. But circles, groups in the army or the police, they had the infrastructure and the knowledge, and they have good reasons to perform those attacks…here will most likely be the truth – somewhere.

5.) Terror Attack Because of Saddam Husseins Execution

I rule that out, because we have no official statement of any of those terrorists groups up to now, and without that such an attack would not make any sense.

--------

Now the question interesting for this forum: Is Thailand safe for a tourist?

Basically yes. These political bombings are not performed to kill too many people, otherwise expecially the bombs at victory monument and Central World could have created a huge loss of life / disaster. These bombs are made to create political uncertainty and start an economical downturn.

But for the near future everybody must be careful. The masterminds will only reach their targets if they at least attack one more time. They must show that even after the CNS now tightened their grip they still can attack. Everybody knows that nobody can prevent those people from doing that again, it is impossible to check everything everywhere in the capital.

I think it is very likely that the masterminds behind the New Year Bombing will attack at least one more time.


Giotto

[Giotto]

The Nation:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/webblog/view_blog.php?uid=321&bid=1422

And surprisingly, and may be important:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/webblog/view_blog.php?uid=321&bid=1018



Giotto

[Old Thai Hand]

PULO denied it set off the bombs, which leaves only the army, the police, the current government and/or Taksin and/or his/their supporters in the army, the police etc.

Oh, I forgot to mention, it could also be Gen. Chavalit who seems pretty pissed off these days.

Glad I could clear that up.

[Giotto]

The constitutional tribunal disbands Thai Rak Thai (the party of ousted prime minister Thaksin)

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/05/31/headlines/headlines_30035646.php

Tribunal rules suit against Democrat legitimate

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/05/30/headlines/headlines_30035582.php

That means: The democratic party stays, TRT will be dissolved.


Giotto

[Terry Terrier]

Khun Thaksin will buy Manchester City football club.

The Thai government track down and freeze all of khun Thaksin's Thai money because they are concerned about how Thaksin acquired said money.

Thaksin uses foreign assets to buy Manchester City football club.

The Thai government are bemused because Thaksin never declared any significant foreign assets when he was pm of Thailand.

[Sukhumvit Sam]

Germany is less free than Thailand:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2211

"Last week, a German court sentenced a 55-year old Lutheran pastor to one year in jail for “Volksverhetzung” (incitement of the people) because he compared the killing of the unborn in contemporary Germany to the holocaust . . ."

as, indeed, is the rest of the European Union, and Canada.

At least Thailand lets you say everything except "How about setting up a constitutional republic--A REPUBLIC OF THAILAND--on post-monarchical lines?"

However narrowly embattled freedom may be in the United States today, it remains an American-inherited and -defended idea in today's world. North of the United States, there is no freedom. South of it, none. Europe is not free--Germany, in particular, remains a slave country post-1945. Thailand, meanwhile, remains the land of slaves, the land of 100-baht a day vassals, too ignorant to identify the king as their oppressor . . .

Long live freedom! Long live the Republic of Thailand!

[Opebo]

Namenick, I judge 'freedom' by the State's tolerance of prostitution. By that standard the US is one of the least free countries on earth.

And after all, what else matters?

[Sukhumvit Sam]

namenick, i judge 'freedom' by the state's tolerance of prostitution. by that standard the us is one of the least free countries on earth.

and after all, what else matters?
rhetoric has carried you away, my friend, as it might me: sex is compulsory, if we obey instinct, and by that standard there are precious few free countries on earth today.

but sex is not everything: free speech, free drug use (to include tobacco and alcohol, without confirep001ory, ruinous supertaxation) and so forth, also figure in our lives, unavoidably, post-, pre- or peri-sex.

long live freedom!

[Animby]

Namenick, I judge 'freedom' by the State's tolerance of prostitution. By that standard the US is one of the least free countries on earth.Try Saudi Arabia.

[Old Thai Hand]

There may be an announcement within days of the death of a major person (I can't say who, for reasons of security) which, if true will impact this country, greatly. All I know, according to a couple of police sources is the person died last Tuesday, apparently of complications resulting from a hidden case of AIDS, and is being kept on ice until the return of his mother.

[BKK Dreaming]

OK, do we guess who?

And is the clue that his mother is out of the country?

Do I need to delay my trip?

BK

[Giotto]

Yes, there are rumours:

http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=51&threadid=1426202&messid=12553872&STARTPAGE=1&parentid=0


Giotto

[Tiger 888]

Yes, there are rumours:

http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=51&threadid=1426202&messid=12553872&STARTPAGE=1&parentid=0


GiottoIf they were true, it could only be good for Thailand.

[Old Thai Hand]

I only arrived back in the country yesterday afternoon, after almost a month in Europe. I had just walked in the door, when a police officer acquaintance called with the news. This 'news' was confirmed by a different police officer (my GF's brother, who is often on excort duty with various members of the family).
The mother arrived back yesterday. I should think, if all this is true (and I believe it is) that it will be announced with appropriate smoke-screen within days.

[Thor93]

I only arrived back in the country yesterday afternoon, after almost a month in Europe. I had just walked in the door, when a police officer acquaintance called with the news. This 'news' was confirmed by a different police officer (my GF's brother, who is often on excort duty with various members of the family).
The mother arrived back yesterday. I should think, if all this is true (and I believe it is) that it will be announced with appropriate smoke-screen within days.


I asked my TGF if she had heard anything and initially the answer was no. She checked with some friends and a few had heard the rumor. The Thai rumor has cause of death as cancer. She is very reluctant to talk about it though since it involves the royal family. It is very difficult for outsiders to understand the respect and reverence Thais show their king and his family.
Until she hears something from the King though, she doesn't believe it.

[Old Thai Hand]

I talked to my source who gave me the heads up on the coup last September before it even began and he says as far as he knows, the son is fine. Since he usually has reliable inside info (connected to military intelligence), we both concluded that since it is a rumor which has widely spread through the police force, that it may be a Taksin ploy, given his strong connections with the Thai police - to what end, though, who can tell?

Since the mother returned yesterday, nothing more has come to light.

It's all part and parcel of the uncertainties existing in this country at the moment.

[BKK Dreaming]

Well now 100s of falangs have asked the Thais they know about this,

If anything does happen later they have someone to blame it on; )

US

[Love Sex 22]

How about That important person who died is the king himself and they have to be very careful how to introduce the news to the public , without bringing a political war in Thailand . That's why they waited for his wife to come back first .

[Old Thai Hand]

How about That important person who died is the king himself and they have to be very careful how to introduce the news to the public , without bringing a political war in Thailand . That's why they waited for his wife to come back first .

Well, as a matter of fact, this was the first rumor my GF's father (an ex-policeman and government minister) told her. Later, he called back and told her it was the son. Later, her brother called and told her the same. Then, I heard it from someone else.

Then, as I stated below, it was refuted by my contact in the army (a general).

There is so much going on in this country that is destabilizing, it is difficult to know what is the truth.

[Daddy07]

... There is so much going on in this country that is destabilizing, ...
Hummm ... Perhaps things could get just a bit more destabilizing there in Thailand so that the Baht might come down a little more against the dollar, which would surely make a lot of us farang mongers happy. (Don't want to have anyone dying to make that happen though) :) So far, the rumor has done no good at all so there is probably nothing to it.

[Vinny_Viagra]

I heard the same rumor from my massuse. Not

[Rawwy4]

Any updates?

I'm flying in on Monday, with a day of rest b4 starting work on Tuesday.....

Should I need to cancel my trip?

[Giotto]

Any updates?

I'm flying in on Monday, with a day of rest b4 starting work on Tuesday.....

Should I need to cancel my trip?Rawwy4,

No updates. It is very quiet. It obviously was a rumour [ but may be it is too quiet].

Whatever the outcome is - it should not be any reason to cancel your trip.


Giotto

[Giotto]

Now - it does not stop:

http://thailandjumpedtheshark.********.com/2007/07/is-crown-prince-vajiralongkorn-dead.html

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/category/thailand


Giotto

[Rawwy4]

Gitto,

Thxs for the info...

[Giotto]

The discussed person was seen today at Kasetsart University. So - it was only a rumour.


Giotto

[Love Sex 22]

The discussed person was seen today at Kasetsart University. So - it was only a rumour.


Giotto

Who the king or the Prince ?

[Old Thai Hand]

True, the son showed up at KU with his ex-hooker wife and their mongrel son to watch as she was given a master's degree by his sister....all very cosy. My GF yelled, "fake" when he saw the wife on TV go up and get her degree. Apparently she had considerable help "earning" her master's.

So, he's alive. But, he didn't look well and I still believe that he is sick and receiving treatment.

The whole thing was orchestrated to counter all the international rumors about him being dead or dying.

[Terry Terrier]

ex-hooker wife and their mongrel son

Care to elaborate?

[Old Thai Hand]

Care to elaborate?

It's common knowledge that she was a former hostess in a Karaoke. There are widely distributed porn pics of her which he took and somehow they got out.

Everyone in Thailand knows about this.

[AsiaTraveler2]

There are widely distributed porn pics of her which he took and somehow they got out.

Can I get a copy? ;) Just kidding.

AT2

[Opebo]

True, the son showed up at KU with his ex-hooker wife and their mongrel son to watch as she was given a master's degree by his sister....all very cosy. My GF yelled, "fake" when he saw the wife on TV go up and get her degree.

There is nothing more 'fake' than a master's degree, OTH - I should know. But why do you call their son a 'mongrel'? You believe the 'Chakri' blood is superior to that of anyone else?

But I suppose you do, as you buy into all the other Thai beliefs regarding skin tone, ethnicity, etc.

[Jungle Bluebird]

OTH

You may want to take it easy on this subject. The law applies serious penalties on this kind of talk. We don't want to loose you on this forum.

JB


It's common knowledge that she was a former hostess in a Karaoke. There are widely distributed porn pics of her which he took and somehow they got out.

Everyone in Thailand knows about this.

[Old Thai Hand]

There is nothing more 'fake' than a master's degree, OTH - I should know. But why do you call their son a 'mongrel'? You believe the 'Chakri' blood is superior to that of anyone else?

But I suppose you do, as you buy into all the other Thai beliefs regarding skin tone, ethnicity, etc.

Well, I believe YOUR MA is fake, or at the very least almost worthless. However, mine which is higher than yours has allowed me to earn a good salary.

As for the other comments...always the provocateur. I never mentioned anything about anyone's blood...you make assumptions.

[Old Thai Hand]

OTH

You may want to take it easy on this subject. The law applies serious penalties on this kind of talk. We don't want to loose you on this forum.

JB

I never mentioned anybody's name. I merely referred to the son, the sister, the wife and the mongrel son. Could be anyone. ;)

[NicFrenchy]

I never mentioned anybody's name. I merely referred to the son, the sister, the wife and the mongrel son. Could be anyone. ;)Could be anyone indeed, but I doubt the Thais appreciate irony, they'd call you guilty just the same.

[Retired Army]

It's common knowledge that she was a former hostess in a Karaoke. There are widely distributed porn pics of her which he took and somehow they got out.

Everyone in Thailand knows about this.

She is a good looking babe and the photo are quite revealing, especially the one where she spreads her pussy lips wide open for the camera to see all. I have a copy of the photos but have been warned about distributing them.

[Old Thai Hand]

Could be anyone indeed, but I doubt the Thais appreciate irony, they'd call you guilty just the same.

I suppose with the new Internet law and apparent surveillance capabilities, the 'grumpy old generals' will track my IP address and swoop down on me any day, now.

I'm waiting for the knock at the door. I'm bored of this wretched country, anyway. ;)