View Full Version : 2002 Thai Women - Opinions & Advice
Attention Newbies:
Please have the good sense to disregard adleZ's postings. He propagates a disrespectful attitude toward Thai hookers that can only be justified by his twisted psychology. He is only a good example of a bad influence.
Go to www.stickmanbangkok.com for balanced and in-depth perspectives on relationships with Thai hookers.
Wsg2000
P.S. Ponder what a zero adleZ would be if he couldn't get a hard-on.
I don't always agree with Z, which I usually make clear, and his approach is not my approach, but there are aspects of it I agree with and I feel are good advice. I think he's over the top on getting his message and perspective across, but his is a valid approach, and his information, when he gives it as opposed to repetitive opinion, is always dead on.
I don't share his perspective on what a satisfying assignation with a Thai sex worker is, I don't share his view of how people should interact with sex workers, but his underlying point that newbies need to be careful of their emotions and not get carried away and lose perspective is a very good and necessary one.
Certainly, seeing a warning to newbies from someone who's a brand new poster, one who hasn't shared anything in this forum but comes in calling names, doesn't exactly inspire confidence. From my perspective, the best advice for newbies is to read extensively, including as much in both the current and archived areas of WSG as you can, gain some understanding about the differenct perspectives, approaches and information, and then make up your own minds. We're adults here, and we can all make our own choices.
I, too, was of the opinion that the attack on Z was unwarranted (this time). True, as Joe says, he is a little extreme. But for every Yin there must be a Yang.
I actually feel that Z misses some things with his approach, but thats his choice. I usually subscribe to the 3 F's as well, but a couple of times I've awakened to my long timer of the night before cleaning my room ! Now... maybe she was just using it as an excuse to look for something to steal, but it was still a nice jesture. I had a Filapina BG get up before me and go to the drug store because I had a head cold. The pharmacist said that the meds I needed had to be taken with food, so she return with my meds and breakfast. Ah...breakfast in bed and a morning boink. What better way to start the day ?
FD
I may have missed something but I see no unusual attacks on the addled one. My feelings about ***** is that ,altho he does have a slightly bent psyche when it comes to Pattaya and women in general ,he does, in the long run, prove to be an asset when good advice is needed. Besides, what would it be like without him to throw things at occasionally. I still hold that he thrives on negative attention. Also I feel that ***** is a very interesting and unusual name.
By the way Z, if you can bang for 2 hours straight you are way out of my league.
I recall when I was about 14 years old, we used to say “find ‘em, feel ‘em, fuck ‘em, and forget ‘em”. That lasted about 2 years until my friends and I grew up a bit more. We realized women had more to offer than just arousal. They offered fantastic companionship. In retrospect, the “find ‘em, feel ‘em, fuck ‘em, and forget ‘em” saying was very juvenile.
Enter “adleZ”, who is presumably an adult, and yet regurgitates the closely-related “3f” mantra whenever possible. I wonder what the origin of his abnormality is. Did a girl tell him his penis was small and hurt his feelings? Is he particularly ugly? Did a former wife rake him across the coals in a divorce settlement? Has he been scared from bad parenting or a broken home? There must be some explanation along those lines.
And now he romps around in a country loaded with poor desperate females, ripe for his exploitation. How pathetic.
WSG2000
Do you have anything useful to add here, or is it just taking potshots and spouting psychobabble?
mickshrimpton
08-05-02, 04:55
WSG2000,
So what if the Z-man has a different opinion from you? I personally liked the act that the TBG gave me, but then again I was there on vacation for only 2 weeks. I was certainly well aware that it was indeed an act-I mean how can you expect someone you can't really communicate with very well to have feelings for you after jumping in the sack 20 minutes after meeting. I can imagine that routine getting tired after an extended period in the country.
Someone has previously asked the question: "If you were in the USA and picked up a working girl-would you want her to sleep with you afterwards." I certainly wouldn't, with most of the skanks on the streets in the USA. My method is not to be disrespectful to the women, but to realize that I am hiring them to do a job for me by spreading their legs and drinking the goop.
WSG:
This is starting to sound like a personal issue.
WSG2000
I've been lurking in this forum for some time now and this is my first posting. IMHO your comments to adleZ are not appropriate and not welcome.
I'll be going the LOS for the first time in September and I appreciate all of the advice and opinions I can get.
JuiceSpike
08-05-02, 13:32
WSG2000,
I think we all know that women have more to offer than just sex but we are talking about sex for money here... I have been to Thailand several times and I'm no expert but after spending many dollars on Thai girls I can tell you that it is refreshing to be able to fuck without any complications as long as you pay fairly and it does not matter what you think of them nor do they care about this either....
There is a tricky thing with Thai hookers. They are sweet and more personable than US hookers or some regular US women which makes it very dangerous for the newbie.... In Thailand prostitution is a way of life for many women as they support their families and to some degree it is a lot more acceptable life style than in the west.
The risk for newbies is to loose perspective on what they are paying for. Thai demeanor is a lot more gentle than in the west and some love or affection starving guys may distort reality and fall in love or worse get obssesed with these girls... I think this is the real issue and not what Adlez and others think of Thai hookers or if a guy is holding a hookers hand or walking behind her...
To me, the botttom line is still this: you are paying to fuck and don't forget this. It does not matter what you think of these girls, it does not matter what you even say to them but always pay. From talking to some of these girsl (yeah, I like talking to some of them after the deed because it is entertaining) I can tell you that many of them have a low opinion of the western man: many think of us as pussy starving wealthy jerks going to Thailand just to get laid. Thaye are right.
Not all Thai girls are looking for love but many are. Many are tired and bored with just fucking and this is another dangerous element for the newbie especially if he is looking for more than sex even without knowing it. There are also many Thai hookers in for the game of love for money: make the guy fall for them so they will send money after they go back home from their fuckfest vacation.
Some Thai hookers are so fucking agressive about getting your business that sometimes they deserve a slap on the face, some are so sweet and inviting that you would gladly over pay them (don't do this!) and some play hard to get to make feel you are getting more that sex for money. Sounds familiar?
The worse thing that can happen to a newbie is to not learn from their experience and this has nothing to do with what one thinks of Thai hookers.... Sex for money>period.
enjoy.
Excellent post, Juice, very well put in all regards. I'd add that in addition to sex, some of us like the companionship found around the experience, given that we're visitors in a foreign country and culture, and that's fine as well, but in that case you really have to be far more careful, as that sweet and attractive persona can go to work on you and you risk losing your bearings. It's not something everyone should do, as there are far too many examples of guys losing their balance, falling in love, sending money and wrecking their lives, and it's that aspect Z also speaks to. If you're going to do that, you need to have your feet firmly on the ground and know your own limitations and danger signals. These women make money by parting it from you -- that's their job, they're brilliant at it, and they use their allure to do so, and that's constantly what's going on during the time you spend with them. If you don't understand that as a constant bottom line then you're cruisin' for a world of hurt.
I happen to like slightly longer term assignations, but my bottom line is not so different from Z's -- I don't view it strictly as a "sperm transaction" as he does, or feel the need to paint the sex worker in strictly physical terms; I view it as payment for contracted time, as a (very) personal services contract where I'm paying someone to spend time with me and enhance my experiences in the way I want. (In this sense, I'd say I prefer to approach things in terms of hiring an escort as opposed to a hooker, as the former implies a wider range of potential services.) I can have affection in that context, but it's the affection I'd have for a personal trainer, a cook or a tour guide I've hired for a period of time, etc. I can get as personal as I/they choose, I can find out as much or as little about them as either of us cares to go into, but when the contract's up, that's it, though I retain the option of maintaining contact in the same way I might in my above examples. I'm very straightforward about this with the TGs I'm with for longer periods -- they're people, and I've no desire to cause anyone pain or discomfort through misunderstanding. (How well that translates into the Thai cultural context is a valid question, of course.)
But we're not talking about male-female "dating" or other relationships, we're talking about paid companions. The rules and equations for that are simply not the same as what someone went though in high school.
So...you guys are saying that the cleaning and breakfast in bed was a trap ? Whew.... I almost stepped in that snare !! :)
WSG2000
I find your self righteous soap box rantings far more distasteful than Z opinions. If you've got something to add to this board, great, jump in. If you just want to spew hate and sit in judgement of others, go someplace else.
FD
Well, it's a very escapable trap, and a little bondage now and then cleanses the soul :)
JuiceSpike
08-06-02, 01:51
.. thanks Joe...
Go-go girls in Bangkok can get a taste for what its like being on the other side of the fence: being a customer themselves... There are a few after hours bars featuring Thai male dancers where bar girls go to drink, look and fuck male strippers.... In these bars girls can choose a guy and pay them (150 - 250 B) for fucking in rooms inside a the bar or just hang out and get drunk with friends. I heard this from a former go-go girl who went to them but (according to her) never bought sex... The scene its quite sexual and apparently girls go there to play customers and cut loose.... These bars are off limits to males and are located in secluded areas of the city.
I have been invited to visit one on my next trip but only if I dress like a Thai hooker and apply some serious sun-tan lotion to make my skin darker. I was told that if I get caught I would either have to pay 3000B and leave immediately (and forget the location of the bar) or get my ass kicked for being curious. I was also told that since the places are very dark I would have a 50-50 chance to make it.....
Got to think about this one but it would a great experience.
Fascinating story. I'd have to wonder if it'd be worth the risk, but if you're willing to take one for the team, all our good wshes will be with you! So you're saying you'd have to go in drag? Hmm, what's their katooey policy? :D
Oh, and we'd demand pictures, of course. And not of the place...
I just love all women especially the beautiful ones, hookers, non-hookers, etc. I just don't expect to marry the next one who makes me feel appreciated. However, remember, hookers have a life after they get off of their backs and it is entirely possible, albeit very risky, to stumble into a real relationship with one. Also youth is youth, mistakes are made and lessons are learned and hopefully we grow up someday and get wiser if we live long enough. I may even grow up myself someday. WSG and Z may even overcome their issues. I am not sure about Adle tho. He seems to enjoy them so.
Hi all..... im malaysian .i will visit Sg Golok Thailand next month.
i want booking somebody (ladies/girl) for sex at Golok. Girl interested is arround 15-17 yrs old (new once)....is a luck for me if girl still VIRGIN....
so can somebody arrange for me and quote price for booking overnight
thanks
zarrmans@yahoo.com
Umm, zarmanns, your request is an excellent way to get banned from this board, not to mention arrested in Thailand, where sex for money with someone under the age of 18 is illegal.
zarrmans......if you are looking for 15 year old girls, then your
a ****. i hope this board is about men looking for
women....not children.
Originally posted by joe_zop
Do you have anything useful to add here, or is it just taking potshots and spouting psychobabble?
It appears joe_zop recognized his background in my list of reasons that may have led misogynist adleZ's nature. How entertaining.
******
Remember newbies, the place to place comprehensive overviews of Bangkok nightlife (and much more) is "www.stickmanbangkok.com." Stickman writes much better than any of this board's posters, and presents a far more complete perspective of the scene. It's so much more efficient to get the whole story in one place, rather then rooting through chaff on this bulletin board.
******
WSG2000 -- if the implication is that somehow I've got mysoginist tendencies because I don't disagree with everything Z writes, then you're as mentally dull a troll as you are tedious. Certainly not one worth wasting any more time on.
Stickman's site is truly excellent, and it's one that I've read, enjoyed and recommended for a long time, but it's ill-served by association with postings as hostile and unconstructive as yours.
Originally posted by joe_zop
WSG2000 -- if the implication is that somehow I've got mysoginist tendencies because I don't disagree with everything Z writes, then you're as mentally dull a troll as you are tedious. Certainly not one worth wasting any more time on.
No, joe_zop, that was not at all the implication. Calm down. There is no need to get your hemorrhoids in knot. In fact, your deeper companionship-oriented approach to hiring girls is precisely what I strive for as well. It is clear you view the girls as people, not just fuck holes as adleZ does. You certainly don't propagate a misogynist point of view. In fact, your postings provide much needed balance to adleZ's rubbish.
Then why not advocate the point of view using a positive, rather than negative approach? An attitude of superiority and stridency is not only counter-productive, it's precisely what makes Z's postings so maddening at times.
Z's a people, too, even if it seems at times he goes out of his way to pretend he's only, as RN would say, the dangly bits. :)
And as far as sex workers go, hell, I'm as big a fuck-hole as the next person, so who am I to cast aspersions?
joe_zop:
O.K. Here's a positive approach: Z is both a people and dangly bits.
I don't believe you really think you are as big a fuck-hole as the next person. That's ridiculous and you know it. You are a tighter, snugger, more satisfying fuck-hole than anyone in the 3f crowd. Even if you were as big a fuck-hole as the next person, you should still feel free to cast aspersions.
JuiceSpike
08-07-02, 00:06
WSG2000...
I don't know if you frequent prostitutes in Thailand but your comments are pointless if you are trying to advocate for a "proper" point of view some people should have toward prostitutes...
If you do fuck Thai hookers well then you might know that their opinion of you is not grand and they most likely think of you as a dick ready to be busted for a few bahts and they don't mind helping you out with their "hole(s)" , vigina, etc...
If you have not fucked a Thai hooker yet maybe you should.
Either way you are getting boring and not really contributing to anything in this board.
You are obviously trying to sell stickmanbangkok.com and maybe this is out of desperation. I have read almost all of the posting in that site and not all are peaches when it comes down to opinions about the Thai hookers. In fact I find the site, although some of the articles are good, to be hyprocritical: on the one hand, stickman tells everybody that Thai hookers are no "good" and on the other hand he directly and indirectly pushes the Thai sex industry. Each week he has a column with news about bars, and stories about hookers yet he seems to have quite a negative opinion and an air of superiority on them as well....hmmm, Stick got stuck in Bangkok....?
I think anybody paying for sex is entitled to have his/hers own opinion about the service and the people who provide it.
LittleBigMan
08-07-02, 02:12
Thailand here I come, LittleBigMan is out of Jail, few more months of house arrest and off with this fucking bracelet!
Going to get everything out of my system, First stop, is Eden for a nice anal threesome. Then Nana, a soupie, oil massage, and
then some ST/LT encounters.
Will do some 3F's, some hand holding walking down the street.
Will get some ugly girls and good looking girls.
Will get some cheap girls and expensive girls.
Will start with 25mgs of V / and more up to 100mgs.
Then, head to Pattaya, and settle down with the old lady!
for some family fun!
I learn my lesson, be a good boy from now on, and stay in the
LOS!
adleZ:
You seem determined to share so much about your personal life in Thailand, surely you would also be comfortable sharing the genesis of your damaged nature as well. Which of my guesses are the cause(s) of your problem?
Were you molested as a child?
Did you damage yourself from a drug addiction?
Were you crushed by one or more relationships gone bad?
Did a former wife rake you across the coals in a divorce settlement?
Have you been scarred from bad parenting or a broken home?
Come on, adleZ. Spill the beans.
WSG2000
Hey Jackson
Why don't you make a seperate section for Zel_da post & comments by others on his post ?
Most of the post in "Thai Woman - Opinion & Advice" have about Zel_da post & comments on that.
I Propose a section in Thailand
"Zel_da hits"
Regarding AdelZ postings & experience with Thai Girls
After last 2 weeks experince of picking up girls in Pattaya for Long Time I understand now the feeling of AdelZ & why he post like that. I think he is leaving in Thailand like me. Being with family I normally go to soapies. I don't take girls for ST or LT. Last 2 weeks family on vacations, I took 4 times girls on LT & guys you don't beleive I got the same experience as Zel_da. Soapies are the best as I not intend to walk with girls on beach road. The real intention is sex nothing else then definitely soapies are the best as Zel_da says. I think his intention going to these girls is also just sex nothing else.
If you want to enjoy the night at nightspots then may be you can take the girl for LT.
Originally posted by Ting Tong
Hey Jackson
Why don't you make a seperate section for Zel_da post & comments by others on his post ?
Most of the post in "Thai Woman - Opinion & Advice" have about Zel_da post & comments on that.
I Propose a section in Thailand
"Zel_da hits"
Ting Tong:
I am the instigator in the latest flurry. I have been swatting at the damaged adleZ a bit too long. The result has been dragging him and several other board dolts off-topic (joe_zop being a non-dolt). I will try to refrain.
WSG2000
******
Newbies: The place to find comprehensive overviews of Bangkok nightlife (and much more) is "www.stickmanbangkok.com." Stickman writes much better than any of this board's posters, and presents a far more complete perspective of the scene. It's so much more efficient to get the whole story in one place, rather then rooting through chaff on this bulletin board. You can also find interesting reader's letters too.
******
JuiceSpike
08-07-02, 12:43
WSG2000...
You are a pathetic desperate sorry ass door to door cheap salesman.
Shut your gap.
wsg2000...seriously...u gotta go easy on him.
he's lived there forever and prob has become somewhat jaded....also, some tg has taken his money and his heart once. he's really just trying to help people out here so we don't go through the same emotional/financial/physical (?) scarring he has gone through. i think he's doing a great service here...
on another note...where da hell is Skinless and his trip reports...
he can't be fucking all day and all night long..can he?
tapioca
Tap,
the big question is where is Cooljool?
Skinless has been posting reports in the "Other Areas" section. And considering he reported he did seven or eight in 24 hours while in Phitsanulok, I'd say he's close to fucking day and night. :D I think he's in Korat right now.
khun, I'm surprised at your negative experiences with 4 LT girls.
Most of my LT's have been great. It's true that occasionally some chicks are not up to the job, but it doesn't happen often.
When a pussy is not up to the job I release it as soon as I find it out, which usually is within the first hour in the room, that is, I just kick her out without paying anything: no service, no money.
I'm not very much into the third hole, but apart from this I expect the chick to be ready for anything. 'Ready for anything' should be the good professionals' motto.
I think some chicks fail because they've chosen the wrong career: they must think making a living from providing sex consist just in opening their legs and letting you in without showing the minimum enthusiasm, some of them even dare to tell you they don't do BJ. Obviously, those chicks shouldn't have left the rice paddy as they lack the attitude to become succesful and profitable professionals in the Thai sex scene. Anyway, in my case all they get is a swift kick-out.
There exist also the LT type that behaves well at night but in the morning tells you that they have to go (or any other silly excuse) and they can't have sex. I consider that a con trick, so I just pay them half the agreed rate. Half service, half pay. Fair enough. isn't it? We all know that a standard LT includes sex at night and sex in the morning, so no excuses are acceptable.
But, as I said before, I haven't had this sort of problems frequently, most chicks I recruit behave quite well.
As for the bad ones 'No service, no pay' is the best rule I can think of.
Freeler,
Maybe Cooljewl was the victem at the acela hotel in Pattaya where someone obviously (at least thats what the police is reporting) jumped from the 6th floor. upon search of room victem was suppose to check out that day, but they only found 2000 BHT.
JuiceSpike
08-11-02, 15:46
Skinless...
good luck with the big titty friend in Pattya...too bad you are ending your apocalyptic journey chasing dragons but I can understand that you need a break from the front lines...
thanks for the great reports and comical encounters and "interesting" info of the places you have visited and fucked your way in and out of them.... you are a true sex adventurer and pussy chaser.
I hope all goes well in Pattaya and you get what you want no matter what it costs.
enjoy.
Skinless -- a truly archetypal journey, and tremendous reports. I'll be curious to hear about your overall sense of satisfaction both for the trek and your encounter with your BB friend. I know what you mean about the eyes, and that cash for meat scenario. I confess that's one of the reasons I generally find such encounters less interesting than the GFE, but I look forward to your sense of things now that it appears you're going down both paths as part of a single journey. Do you feel somewhat sated from your gorging, or still hungry for more, more, more?
MarcoStraight
08-11-02, 17:22
...Been in Pattaya for 10 days. Met a girl I knew before, long time ago.She told me she lived in France with her boyfriend, then she came back to Pattaya because...you know the same storytell...:
"<Family my boyfriend don't like me...me no happy,I was booring living in France, my family in Thailand, ..etc..,etc.,>"
I went out with her but I didn't enjoy so much.She was not the same girl I Knew 4 years ago. She wanted to go everywhere showing me she had big money pretending to assume a 'western air'.
So, I just say goodbye to her.
There's nothing worst than a Thai girl tring to turns herself in a stupid western girl.
I wish to say to the all Thailand's novice : please try to treat thai girls like asian and not like western girls.
It doesn't mean to be rude or unpolite it means to not forget their culture background.
So if you decide to spend few days with a girl 'cause you like her, let the girl take care of you.Don't pretend to be a sort of bodyguard for her.....At the end we stay in their country.
Don't try to impress the girl bringing her to an expensive italian or french restaurant. No,no,no,no,no, and re-no,no,no and NO ! It's not gonna work !!!
She will be 100 times more happy to go in a cheap thai local and genuine restaurant.(and your wallet will be happy too..).
Plus, don't try to do such a gentlemen things like pour out water for her .......this will make her laugh inside. In the thai culture women got to serve the men.So don't ridicule yourself .
Just respect the girl,don't be an animal of course but don't forget where they came from.
It's so sad watching farangs doing these stupid things in restaurants , on the beach, everywhere.......
My suggestion is to let the girl works for you in everyway.
This is one of the best things of thai girls.
You need to eat but you don't want go out but stay in your hotel watching TV ?
Tell the girl to go buy something for you.
You wish to rent a motorbike but you don't want to drive it ?
No problem, she's gonna be your personal taxi motorbike.
You feel hurt on your back ?
Send her to market shop buying some Counterpain cream then let the girl massage you.
She will happy to do this for you, and comparing of other countries girl the thais are more honest and reliables.
Howdi,
I just got home from one full month in LOS. Been to Korat, Phitsanulok, Chiang mai, Samui and of course Bangkok.
Contrary to Skinless, this has been a huge GFE, with the same lady door to door (I still managed to get two oil massage sessions at Baron's).
I must say that I enjoyed it a lot, but this is obviously essentially dependent on how one gets along with the chosen one. Keep in mind that you have to face three "gaps":
1. Language (not much English spoken, alas)
2. Culture (do not underestimate that, it is immense, even if bargirls seem superficially westernised)
3. Generation (most of us on this board might be 15-20+ years older than the typical bargirl.)
The magnitude of last one was unexpected for me. It does not matter so much in a ST or one-night stand, but basically living with a post-teenager for a long period is somewhat irritating sometimes. You get tired of watching cartoons on TV, listening to Thai boysbands on the radio, having her glued to her mobile phone giving a blow-by-blow account of her whereabouts to the BKK nitery community. etc.
Still, GFE is really nice, and nowhere else than in Thailand can it be so enjoyable, IMHO.
Also, sexwise, it DOES get better each time, but you do not get the exitement of discovery.
JuiceSpike
08-13-02, 04:20
Dejavu......
Strange thing happent to me the other day. I was reading some postings in this section for about 1/2 hour and wanted to keep on reading but remember I had to meet a friend so I logged off. I live in the US....
I got into my car and headed towards a busy intersection where the light was red. I stopped at the light and next to me a small car stops very close. I looked to my left and there I see a Thai girl (early twenties) also waiting for the light to change. She turned her head and looked at me for what it seemed a long time: we both locked eyes and the first thing that went through my mind was this: Did I know her? Did she know me? Did I fucked her in Thailand and now she is in the US...?
She smiled at me (you know that smile) then took off. Strange thing. No, I did not follow her but I did pass her and she was bobbing her head to loud techno music. The song was coming from the same radio station I had on.....
Maybe I'm having withdrawls....
dejavu.
adleZ,
let me clarify this: I did not fall for the GFE. It was intentional, I knew the girl from before, and I was very happy I did it.
She gave me a great time, was always there for me, willing and skilled. She was not whining, dragging her feet or anything. She never asked for money, or that I buy her anything. In fact she paid for some small things she could have charged me for (taxi, highway toll. etc.). At one point I noticed that she had been shopping and put a new tube of toothpaste for me in the bathroom because the one I had was running empty. She even picked the right brand !
She was always dressed as appropriate and I was never embarassed to have her with me. Since one of the main reasons I wanted long-term escort was that I hate dining out alone, and that after a while Thai food, delicious as it is, begins to be far less attractive, I took her to foreign food restaurants, nothing fancy, but good places, and she behaved OK. When she did not know what to order, I ordered for her, and she tried all the food that came her way. Some she liked, some she did not, but that was fine with me.
At one point we got lost around Korat (I can say that I saw rural Thailand !) and she was most helpful extracting us from the pretty countryside, where only Thai is spoken.
Really I was very happy with her. The points I made about having a GF who is from a foreign culture, and much younger than me, did not remove anything from the fun I had, quite the countrary in fact.
MarcoStraight
08-13-02, 12:14
To adleZ
I never wrote you full of shit, not even thinked about it.
I agree with most of your point of view indeed.
..And trust me ..I'm not a 'newcomer' of Thailand.
I just think you are too tough about thai girls.
It sounds to me you got a sort of anger against 'em.
Yes you're right, these girls think about money or if you prefer they see us like walletmoney with legs but who cares ?
As I wrote time ago, they like play game with us...so ?
I like play game too.They want we believe they love us...and so let the chicks believe it.
It's only a game.
Like Mick said <' I know it's only rock'n' roll but I like it '>.
peace.
JuiceSpike
08-13-02, 12:42
Z Man is back.......... watch out.....
Well said, Seydlitz, and you, too, Marco, in both posts. Z, I don't see at all where Seydlitz was complaining about his GFE from a Thai perspective -- I thought his point about the challenges of hanging with someone from a different culture and age group was pretty clear.
And I'll be very curious to hear at the end of all this, once he's had a chance to sit back and reacclimate, just what Skinless thinks about his trip. I've not at all heard him saying that the GFE is a waste -- I've heard him saying that he's been on a different kind of journey at the moment. And I apologize, Skinless, if I'm putting incorrect words in your mouth. Your point about how much a gogo girl can earn is a good one, but of course the real lifespan of that earning power is pretty damn short, and has its costs. Maybe instead of angels, we should talk about them in terms of professional athletes -- loyal to who's paying while they're paying, but well aware that they mostly see you as a piece of meat with and expiration date, so you've got to get it while you can, and as much as possible, because once you don't make the cut, you're done or you're hanging on in ever lower regions of the minor leagues.
So TG's "only want to fuck for your $$$"? Well, blow me down, do you really think so? I'm stunned and surprised. My god, do you think things go beyond that? Do you mean my waitress ultimately really just wants my tip, my dentist is mostly only interested in paying for his new car, and that nice girl at the jewelry counter just wants her commission? I may have to change my entire world view!
As long as you know and remember that's underneath, that people (including you) understandably primarily have their own interests and concerns at heart, there are a lot of different ways to successfully play any game. And the play's the thing.
Packripper
08-13-02, 20:06
just regarding the getting arrested in Thailand post on the last page... I thought I might point out that it doesn't always show up in the Bangkok Post. You can get arrested here and no one will know about it. If you have enough cash in your pocket, you might be able to get a phone call (try to think carefully about who you're going to call who might actually be able to help you out)..... but if you happen to get arrested naked or in any other situation where you don't have a Baht on you, don't expect the police boys to lend you a coin (like in the movies) for a call.
;)
-Pack
Packripper
08-13-02, 20:17
I'm a consumer of GFE and FFF. Both are fine and both have their nice points.
I've kept a soapy girl as practice mia noi (I say practice because I don't have a mia luang) as well as commercial college students. Yes, there are self interests being satisfied on both sides and a blood test together is definitely recommended (as GFE generally translates to unprotected sex after a rather short period of time). Just skin diving is worth 50% of the GFE I think. It can be 1 week or 1 year or on going. And heck, you can still dump them if you know how to. But I still FFF because as a typical local male, I need constant variety. If you get your blood test at Param 9 hospital, you might even run into me some time. You get your results in 45 minutes. ;)
Some like GFE, some like FFF. Some like both. No worries, yes?
Can I post about this topic without ranting? :))
-Pack
freeler:
rant (rnt)
v. rant·ed, rant·ing, rants
v. intr.
to speak or write in a angry or violent manner; rave.
v. tr.
to utter or express with violence or extravagance: a dictator who ranted his vitriol onto a captive audience.
n.
1. violent or extravagant speech or writing.
2. a speech or piece of writing that incites anger or violence: “the vast majority [of teenagers logged onto the internet] did not encounter recipes for pipe bombs or deranged rants about white supremacy” (daniel okrent).
3. chiefly british. wild or uproarious merriment.
so, in other words, the vast majority of posts in this section, mine included. :d
Great reports, Skinless, and sounds like you had an extraordinary time. I'm curious as to what your overall happiness was with this type of trip -- the "get the bad seed out" marathon, as opposed to your previous longer terms flirtation with the mermaid mythos.
i have nothing to say...i just wanted to post here and say hi...
i will read skinless's Iliad tonight...
tapioca
skinless,
come on, u gonna listen to some english guy tell you all the gogo dancers are awful fucks? that's like saying all germans are fat, wear speedos, and smells like shit.
i really need to head up to issan country...
who's aba-lak in here???
tapioca
Freeler -- any idea where you're going to be during your December/January swing? I'm fairly solid at this point that I'll be in LOS from the beginning of November until mid-January, and expect to be moving around a bit more near the end.
Skinless -- I think it comes down to the old "whatever floats your boat." I very much admire your single-minded cross-country cuntry quest, but can't imagine that I'd want to do the same thing, as it just doesn't sound like my scene. (Not that I don't butterfly, but yours was more a major species migration than one little sucker with wings flitting about.) I'm still figuring on being mostly in one place, finding a regular or three, and flitting about as the urge hits. I definitely can't take a steady diet of go go bars, and it's not really my idea of a good place to meet TGs, but I think of it it kind of like the circus -- every once in a while it's fun to go see the wide range and the craziness, as long as you can remember that it's all overpriced illusion. (I actually think they're places to watch men than women.)
I don't eat at restaurants with maitre d's all the time either, but when I do I understand I'm going to pay more for the experience. The bottom line is that whether one pays 200 or 1000 baht ST, it's still chump change compared to what one would pay for far less in NYC. As the saying goes, up to you. Now, I agree that 3000 baht is completely over the top, especially the scenario described (mamasans pressuring girls to charge that) but that's probably one of the reasons everyone seems to be saying that Phuket isn't what it used to be. I look forward to checking this information out, as I'll be there for a couple of days in early December.
Well, my thrust was that the maitre d' doesn't actually really do a hell of a lot different than a waitress in a diner, but you pay to get to see him kowtow in his fancy suit. Same same go gos. But I'll try to be more circumspect with the metaphors -- as you know I too tend to overindulge.
I very much look forward to your write-up -- a heart of darkness tour is a good way of putting it. And your crack ***** allusion is a good one as well, and helps place it within its proper general context; all illusion stripped away, just the transaction left, motives clear. In the same way that there are guys who are willing to pay a couple of thousand bucks for an hour with a Playboy playmate or porn star, and there are also those who only want someone from the side of the road, it's just depends on what gets your juices going.
You might be right about the reality thing in Thailand -- an artist I know there, who's Thai, tells me that anything that runs counter to creating things for the tourist trade is not supported, which is why Thailand, as opposed to pretty much every major or minor country, doesn't have a contemporary art museum. But on the other hand, I'm not so sure there's anything much reality-based in the states, either, anymore.
You've definitely made me figure on checking out a couple of the places you've been, though I've also been toying with the idea of a journey that threads completely along the seaboard areas. Not sure at this point -- I know my basic itinerary and am keeping it flexible because of course one of the best things about LOS is how easy it is to decide at the last minute to do things. (My trip got far stranger yesterday, as I found out that my 73-year-old mother and my niece signed up for a two-week tour of LOS because they know I'm going to be there for ten weeks. That ought to make things interesting, to say the least, but I'll have plenty of time other than that. Does mean I'll have to do a small bit of touristy stuff, though. Luckily, they're coming during a time when I was planning on a bit of that anyway, and I don't have to deal with them all that much, since the package they're on will handle that. Just see them during a couple of their unstructured days.)
Freeler, Z, and me, huh? Now, are you just wishing for me to get eaten alive or what? :D
Packripper
09-13-02, 16:10
Actually I don't believe "upper class" actually means "upper class" (as in comfy chairs and comped champagne on Virgin Atlantic). We all probably have different tastes, but we can assume that some places, the girls have a higher daily turnover of how many sausages they roast.
Poseidon is an overcrowded tourist trap for a different group of tourists. If its name is on the net or on a forum, you can probably assume that you're going to be sharing with (you will be anyway) a larger # than the already large # it is. When it first opened, it was great. Plenty of fresh gals and only an average # of customers. They built a website.... they get popular... and now there are tour buses full of Taiwanese and Koreans in the parking lot. Might as well have a movie theater style ticket booth in front of the fish bowl. :p
If you're there and you ask the girl (this is one thing they usually don't lie about... of course, I don't know if they might be more inclined to lie if the customer wasn't able to ask the question in Thai) how many rounds she's had for the evening,... and it's 3-4-5, and you know the cheer guest, then that's probably a high volume place.
Yes, it's fun to visit the popular places, and I do for parties, birthdays, reunions, etc.... but I'd bet ya'll would have an even better time if you walked into some of the no name places. It's much more enjoyable (for me anyway) when you go to a place and you're the girl's first or second of the evening. A little safer in terms of less vagina tears for that particular day. Starting out at 3pm or so also helps. Sometimes you might be in for a nice surprise. Some of the smaller clubs have larger and better quality fishbowls than a huge place like Poseidon or Caesar's. ;)
wrap, slap it, push it.
-Packripper
---
"Mondays Childe writes about upper class hos at Poseidon not giving you the clap. Upper class. Ha ha. They are all the same, all from the same rice paddy."
JuiceSpike
09-14-02, 00:00
Pack....
Nice report. Can you provide with a list of places you referred to that are less frequent by the tourists?
Skinless...
I like your "going native" reports: always humorous and sometimes damn scary which makes me wonder if you could survive mentally and physically another "Heart of Darkness" tour. Hope you do...
To all....
Where id ADLEZ? Has anybody "seen" him? Has he been caught by the Thai hooker mafia and his dick was fed to the ducks?
I'm planning another trip to Thailand (4th this year) for October and although I've enjoyed the scene in BKK I'm getting a little bored with it. On my last trip I got access to some interesting info about working girls in Bkk which took some of the myth and excitment away... But I love fucking those Thai girls (I like go-go girls because they always try to scheme something and this makes more entertaining for me) but never pay more than 1000bt short time... I don't do long time no matter how pretty she is because I don't like waking up next to a stranger and strangers they are.
I absolutely agree with Pack's take on things, and there's no question, Skinless, that the heart of darkness tour is one that's there beckoning with its undercurrents and its attractions. Still, the truth of the matter is that often there's nothing wrong with being a tourist, with seeing the same packaged sights (and doing the same packaged TGs) as others have before you. If it's new to you, and you're getting the thrill you want, then who the hell cares? The comparison to Disney World has aptly been made. When you go there do you need to care that the sucker in the Mickey costume is sweating to death, overworked and underpaid? Nope -- just give me my cartoon experience, thank you, and I'll go away happy. It's for the more perverse and jaded among us, or those who are after a different kind of amusement ride, to ponder what lies beneath. The truth is that the tourist spots in LOS are still basically places where people don't really need to know jack, and can jaunt in and get laid for about what they're used to paying for a pizza. If that's what you want, cool. If you want to do the traveling perversion tour, fine, too.
Since you, Skinless, were kind enough to walk through your process with all of us, I guess I'll do the same.
I should be arriving in LOS November 2nd, and I figure I'll stay there and butterfly around for a couple of days and shake off my jet lag. Then I'm off to Chiang Mai, to meet up with a friend and track down a long-term place to rent for a base for most of my stay. I've scheduled a couple of weeks of Thai tutoring to start with, at a couple of hours a day, and other than that I'm figuring on just a bit of wandering and finding the rhythm, checking out beer bars, massage parlors, what pass for go gos there, and working a few hours a day.
Around the 20th or so I'll go back to Bangkok, to meet up with two Thai artists I know and combine sanuking with popping in and out of what promises to be a completely bizarre festival called "Asiatopia" which is bringing in performance artists from all across Asia (about twenty of them from Vietnam, Burma, Philippines, Japan, China, you name it) to do three or four days of truly strange stuff. Since I'll get to hang out with all these folks, that should be a weird enough experience that I don't want to miss it. If nothing else, I expect I'll get to see some of the more off-the-path places in and around the suburbs of Bangkok, especially since the artist who's the main organizer of this festival spends his time working with ex-bar girls. (His email tagline is great -- "Good girls go to heaven; bad girls go everywhere.") I've been going back and forth about staying at the place all these folks are going to be, which my pal there is pressing me to do, and which I'm sure would be quite an experience, but I'm leaning toward being elsewhere mostly so I have a good excuse to disappear whenever the mood hits me and do some fucking. We'll see.
After that I expect to wander my way north again, at reasonable leisure, probably doing Korat, Phitsanoluk, and Lampang, meet up with my relatives who will be on a tour up in Chiang Rai or Mae Sai, back to Chiang Mai for a little while and then head to Phuket for a few days until the relatives finally leave me alone and fly home. That should get me to December 7th or so.
Here's where my plans get fuzzier. I know I'm going to do Cambodia this trip, so I might go there from the south at this point. I might also wander along the interior coasts on my way over to Cambodia, perhaps just going down from Phuket to Kuala Lumpur and then from Songkhla all the way up and around to Chantaburi, stopping wherever I get the fancy. Or, I might combine the two approaches, only go the opposite route -- go from Phuket to Cambodia, since there are direct flights, and then start at Trat or Chantaburi and head west. I might also just run back up to the north and stay there until near New Years, and then wander around for a couple of weeks before I go. I'm thinking of a jaunt to Pattaya for Christmas, as that seems like a metaphorically strange idea, playing in a weird backgammon tourney there and generally enjoying myself as much as I can, though as I've said before I'm not really into the place. Not sure yet, as this will be the first Christmas and New Years I'll have spent overseas (third Thanksgiving in a row, though, all on different continents.) My plans will depend on whether I'm actually managing to get any work done during this whole period. If I am, I'll keep going on the road; if not, I'll just head back north and hole up for a while.
My pal in Chiang Mai has been pressing me not to miss Laos, as it's where he wishes he lives right now and he really likes it, saying it's like Thailand used to be, so that's also a possibility, though I'm less compelled as nothing much seems to be happening there. Perhaps a wander down the Mekong. I've got invitations to hang out in Mumbai, and Sri Lanka, and that can also be done relatively cheaply from Bangkok, but I'm less interested in those and will probably pass. The one other place I'm actually seriously considering is Vietnam, but more than likely I'll just be staying in/moving around Thailand except for a run to Cambodia which I'll also use to renew my visa.
When I put all that down it seems like too much moving around, so I may well eliminate wandering to Korat and north when I'm planning to, just running back quickly, and look to hit those places when I go back out in December. That would get me another week or two in one place. It's entirely possible I might just hide out in Chiang Mai most of the time from mid-December on, but that will depend mostly on how the work and the sanuking is going.
Wherever I happen to be, I'll need to gather everything up and be in Bangkok for my flight back on January 15th. Ten glorious weeks, which I can hardly wait for, and seven weeks away now and counting.
skinless -- he's for real. he runs an organization that helps ex-bar girls transition into other jobs, learn to cope outside of the sex trade, which is what all some know since they entered into it very young, teaching them skills, some of which are in the arts and crafts industry, which allows them to be independent and financially viable, and gives them a support system of peers both coming through the process and those like them who have done it successfully. his email tagline is mostly ironic and calculated to horrify those he deals with in the governmental and ngo sectors, who prefer to pretend that the bgs don't exist and have issues that need to be addressed...
i'm basically only spending a couple of hours a day for a couple of weeks learning thai, twenty-four hours or so out of ten weeks, and that should just be enough get the basics down, and ideally a bit of the alphabet as well, so i can have a chance to read some stuff (including signs) while i'm there. nope, i'm not planning to relocate -- just figuring if i'm going to be there for a couple of months i want to be able to communicate a bit better, though i've also been tentatively discussing working with some folks on some english translation projects, as well. i'm just toying with those, and don't really expect them to come to pass at this point.
i won't waste all of my time travelling or looking at temples, don't worry. i think your trip actually had far more travelling than i'm really planning on ahving happen, and your trip was was shorter. my temple visits will likely primarily be during the week or so i've got to put up with my relatives, and an excursion to angkor wat, except for times when i'm reading the ramakian (i did pick up those books we discussed many months ago) and want a visual reference. i've already seen most of the ones i'm really interested in seeing, though i'm not going to avoid them, either. mostly, i actually want to just spend some time doing not much of anything but spending some time sinking into the workaday rhythms of where i'm at, watching things go by and thinking, drinking, writing, and screwing. i've got enough projects to keep me busy and happy, only a couple of which i absolutely need to work on, and those are very flexible.
and i may well take your advice and do a cheap orgy in phitsanalok -- i expect to do at least one while i'm there one way or another, and that sounds like as good a place as any. while i'm not really looking to dive into the heart of darkness tour as much as you, i'm loathe to have things on the menu i've not at least nibbled on once :)
If he's a fake, he's a very consistent one -- every time I've seen him and every time I've heard him speak at something, he consistently focuses on the situation of these women, what needs to be done and is happening, and he never does the kind of self-promotional stuff I see from others who I consider fakes or egotists. He's actually a good enough and well-known enough artist that he could just dispense with all this if his heart wasn't in it, but my understanding is that he's been fairly tireless against solid odds in making things happen, and has put most of his own money into keeping things afloat. Still, I can only go by what I've been told by people I trust, have read about him, and by my conversations with him, as I've not actually visited where things go on. I know it's located in Nonthaburi, just outside Bangkok, and I'm planning to drop in there and see things. I'd point you to his organization's website, but it's all in Thai (one more reason I need to learn it!) I'll be happy to backchannel you that info, but I'd rather not post it on this site for reasonably obvious reasons.
And I always appreciate the way you play :) as it keeps things fun and rolling. By now you know my motto -- whatever works for whomever. I always appreciate there being a full spectrum of light even if I have my own favorite colors.
just wanted to post so that people new coming in wouldn't think this is a skinless-joezop conversation...
ur friendly neighborhood forum boy
tapioca
carry on.....
Originally posted by skinless
One more thing Joe. When you're with this guy who helps the bg vets, do you say "Your're doin a great job, cu in 2 hours as I'm off for a bonk:)
Well, no, that's one of the reasons for the backchannel -- I do have my professional reputation to think about :D I may think with the brain and feel with the heart, but I still drive with the little head at times; I make no claims of moral consistency other than to champion inconsistency, and to recognize my own culpability in the equation. Guilty, sir, yes, guilty, you're right, sorry. Um, where was it you said you met her?
And thanks, Tap, for the interruption. Skinless and I are just filling up space until everyone else realizes the board is back up -- which makes me realize just how much more work I got done while it was down...
heart of darkness tour...can i reserve a spot in 2003 (prob in September)?
oh, and here's something funny...so i'm in my foreign poly sci class and the prof is lecturing about thailand and its foreign policy. anyways, he turns to one tidbit and says how the goverment actually created the sex industry in thailand to where it is today. these 3 "good" thai girls in the class basically just looked at each other and have the look of amazement. one of them came up to me and said "we didn't know there is a sex industry in thailand..." to which i replied, "yeah...dats so weird...i've never seen it either"
tapioca
I agree with you, Freeler, and I'm certainly not afraid of spending time travelling around the region -- my main issue is simply getting the balance I need between work and play, since this is a dual purpose trip for me. Ten weeks is a long time, and there's plenty of room for wandering around in that, and as I said, it's simple enough in LOS to just go when the urge hits. I'm sure as heck not planning to stay in one place that entire time when there's a lot I haven't seen. And, while I'm not in LOS strictly on a tourism jaunt, I'm definitely not going to avoid seeing new sights either. As I look at it now, I'm having at least a month in and around Chiang Mai (cut into two periods), a week or so in and around Bangkok, a few days in Phuket, and that still leaves another four or five weeks to do whatever and wherever: more time in the north, a week in Cambodia, time in Laos or KL, a couple weeks wandering up and down the coasts or through the eastern part of the country -- I just haven't decided and am open to suggestion.
Sri Lanka's still a possibility -- just a slightly lower priority because I have the feeling I'll get the South Asia opportunity again soon, and I don't want to give it short shrift. I also have no good way of doing Sri Lanka and not Mumbai or vice versa without creating some hard feelings among those who have invited me. Add to that the issue that another friend wants me to spend time with them in Delhi if I'm around, and it's just too complicated. If I do go there and India, I'll probably do it near the end of my trip, but now I'm leaning heavily toward staying in SE Asia, as there's plenty there I've not yet seen.
Packripper
09-15-02, 01:05
Skin, Joe, Juice, Tap,
Hola fellas. Yeah, Juice, I'd be happy to email you the name of a couple of places right before you come. If I'm free, we can meet up as well. Don't worry, I'm not a tuk tuk driver drummin' up commissions. :p Or maybe I am?
I'm not a Heart of Darkness type unfortunately. The problem with places that are out in the open (for me and just about any local), such as regular hotels, or even being outside of Bangkok..., is that when you live here, there's a very good chance of being spotted by someone that knows you. That's why I only park in places where no one can see my license plate and rarely stray from Ratchada, Param 9, or Phetburi Rd and their no-tell motels. Not to mention, it appears that I might have a preference for a different type of gal than some of you guys. I don't really have much fun at gogo bars at all. Mostly because I'm not one for chit chat in real life. ;)
But I think I know metro Bangkok pretty well by now, so if it's Rachada (just about anyplace from the Asoke Intersection to the Ladprao Intersection), Param 9, or Phetburi Rd, I can probably give you my opinion and we can hang.
tip:
Here's an easy one... when you aren't already friends with the cheer guests, mamasans, papasans, (ya'll probably already know this), it's best just to IGNORE them entirely. I suspect it's very true for Sukhumvit, Nana, Patpong, Cowboy. etc... from my brief excursions there.
They're not your friend you know. Treat them like telemarketers or stock brokers cold calling you to sell you junk. No need to say hello, or sit down, no need to order a beer, just browse the fish bowl and leave. Walk in, accept the wai politely, and then do your shopping. You don't need anyone to tell you the prices or who is fresh from Lampang until you see someone you like. Hit about 10 places before you get an idea of what places are "good" for the few weeks you'll be partying. Because it changes from month to month. Treat it like... bar hopping in New Orleans or Atlantic City. You don't just walk into the first place, get drunk and order the leftover dish of the day. Window shop. :) Most of my friends who visit me from abroad, I'm always surprised on how UN-picky they are.
;)
Pack
Gotta agree, maybe it's the weather, maybe it's delayed grumblies that things were down, but folks are kinda testy right now on the board, it seems, not to mention not reading very closely. I'll second the kudos for Freeler -- I loved the bar name bit and laughed even more at the clueless follow-up!
Now, now, Skinless, you're going to lecture me on overindulging in my pizza metaphor after the gorge-fest you just went through? And as far as cost, should I run back to the old forum and paste in some quotes from you about how money wasn't really the issue, you had plenty, etc.? :D When I said that a bonk was the price of a pizza, I meant it's not something that people coming from areas of plenty really think that much about. When they're hungry, they order something to eat, and as long as they don't find the price shocking, they don't think about it all that much. The bottom line is that whether it's the eight-a-day lineup at 250 baht apiece, or a trip to a massage parlor, or one overnighter at 1500 baht and a bar fine, you've spent pretty much the same and presumably you've gotten whichever experience you prefer.
Look at it this way -- some of what you saved in TG costs I'll end up saving by renting a place for two months at a monthly rate. I'd rather give the money to the girls, honestly, than the property owners as I figure the latter manage to get their share already. I'll no doubt save the rest simply by not being the relentless boinking dynamo you are and by resting up and regenerating my paltry sperm by praying mightily in temples :o
Let's see, last time I was in LOS, I was there for three weeks and I think was with ten women, some for more than one day. As I've said, I tend to want a different experience than simply mass quantities (though given the number I just quoted that's something that would sound completely ludicrous in any other context than this board!) I expect on this trip that I'll likely have a couple of liasons that go a week or so, or even more, since that's more the kind of thing I'm into. I'll get my share of the quick and meaningless, but same as wandering around temples (or hanging out in the rainforest a bit or doing a bit of snorkeling) for me it's all about the quality of the experience as determined from my own perspective. If I end up spending 1500-2000 baht a day overall on bonking I'll be surprised, but I can easily spend twice that, travel wherever I want and see what I want, and still be within my budget. And happily for me, a portion of this trip actually is tax-deductable (though I'd have to go some to make the bonking be...) as well.
Even though it's now for everyone, I'm glad as hell I went to the Taj Mahal, to use one example. Just because something's now for everyone doesn't mean I have to automatically cross it off my list -- it might still be for me, too, and I'll not know until I try it. This time I think Eden will fall into that category -- never went there, and I figure I'll have to do it once even though I keep hearing mixed things. Same reason I took a trip to the Kangaroo Bar -- not really my scene, but not a scene I'll find in all that many other places, either.
Oh, hey, I agree totally on not overpaying -- and I can be every bit the 6'2" argumentative bastard I am at my core if someone's trying to rip me off, though of course I always try to be jai dee. I actually have a blast with the bargaining part of things, and consider it one of the great treats of being there. Certainly, if I'm out in the boonies I'm not going to be paying Bangkok rates. But when I'm in Bangkok, if I'm going to hang out at Nana or Soi Cowboy or wherever I'm not going to think, cripes, I ought to be able to pay what it costs in Philok.
Your description of Eden sounds pretty much what I expect. But it is sort of like seeing the Statue of Liberty or whatever -- gotta do it once.
As far as my mom goes -- the nice thing about having to spend time in a hot country with a 70+ year-old person from northern climes is that they get tired easily. Did my best to talk her out of coming, but naturally that just made her more determined. So I figure it's breakfast and then a morning jaunt, a mid-day rest or nap for her, something from late afternoon until 8 or 9 or so, and that's it. I don't figure having any trouble sanuking as I didn't on the one previous foreign trip I took with her. And since she's attached to a tour, I'll be staying in different hotels since I'm not getting their discounts, which actually helps things, and they'll have excursions planned for her to do as well, not all of which I'll be on. Should actually be pretty low-impact, overall, and it's mercifully brief in duration. And, yup, it's probably going to be the single most expensive portion of my stay, but, hey, you gotta pay what you owe.
And, yup, I'll check out the fake art. Be an interesting change from the hundreds of kids trying to sell me elephant carvings, if nothing else.
JuiceSpike
09-15-02, 05:36
Pack....
Thanks for the offer. I will let you know when I will be going back to BKK (maybe early October) and yeah hang out would be good...
Skin....
It would be entertaining if you could share some of the contents of your beloved BB emails.
Great stuff, Skinless. It would be interesting to know just how many men around the world are actually sending money to their tilacs in LOS. And it might well be that relaying letters such as these explains why Thailand is such a net-optimized country, relatively speaking :)
StreetSmart
09-15-02, 15:14
There is a myth being bandied about on this and other forums. Like most myths it is being repeated and repeated until it has achieved the status of a truth that none dare question. So excuse my excess if this brave-heart steps forward to point our a fallacy in our operating assumption but I think, in the long run, it will help us all in improving our pursuit of the sport we so dearly love.
This is the myth: “Don’t pay the ladies too much money or you will spoil it for the rest of us.” The corollary to this theorem is the cherished belief that the Japanese have driven up prices: “those slant-eyed, bucktoothed, bow-legged Japanese tourists have spoiled it for us by over-paying the girls and driving the price up." On the surface, this seems logical. But a little examination reveals the fallacy of this theory.
Pussy in Bangkok is perhaps, one of the last bastions of a free market place, unfettered by government quotas, regulations and taxes. The Bangkok night scene is classic market dynamics in action (had I known this earlier, I would have done my graduate thesis in Thailand and had a college education second to none). I pulled down my dusty volume of Adam Smith and nowhere could I find an economic formula in which “expectations” of the seller drove market prices. I couldn’t because, gentlemen, the formation of market prices is driven by supply and demand, not by expectations.
You would laugh if someone advised you to not buy BMWs or Mercedes because doing so would drive up the prices of all cars. You would have tears in your eyes from laughter if someone told you that if you stop staying at expensive hotels, all hotels would be cheaper.
“Now wait a minute,” you say, “premium cars and premium hotels are a world away from Bangkok pussy!” But classic economists would tell you otherwise, the market price of all three is set in the same manner. The algorithm is complex involving cost of goods, time to market, supply side competition, market availability, market scope, product quality, perish-ability, seller and buyer deadlines, etc. But nowhere do seller’s expectations play a factor in setting prices.
Now you might counter, “I remember when I could get a girl for 500-1000 THB long term (before the Japanese drove the prices up).” That is true... but if you think about it, what was the price of gasoline back then? (and I assure you, the Japanese didn’t drive that price up either)
So don’t worry that paying premium prices will hurt our sport because it doesn’t. The balance we are all looking for results in the seller making a profit and the buyer getting a bargain. Just be sure that the quality of your purchase is commensurate with the price. Paying well and rewarding great service benefits us all in the long run by raising the quality of the delivered service.
StreetSmart
09-15-02, 15:41
Freeler,
No... I am not saying that tourists do not drive up prices. I am saying that seller EXPECTATIONS do not determine prices. Obviously, when the demand (number of tourist) raises faster than the suppply (Thai BGs), prices go up.
Let's use your analogy. If a Mercedes dealer expected to sell his cars for $1 million each, he would be out of business in short order. His expectation would have nothing to do with what the market is willing or able to pay.
I know it seems that market prices are based upon previous transactions but in reality they are not. If it were, prices would have been the same the week after 9-11 as it was the week before. As stated, the factors which determine market price are many. But what a BG's expects to be paid is not one of them.
JuiceSpike
09-15-02, 16:09
Streetsmart...
You seemed more booksmart than streetsmart. But I agree with your point that just because some drooling ediot pays more does not raise the overall prices but it does raise the hooker's expectation of what she could or should get for her services but mostly she gets an ego rush thinking she is worth more when she gets more....
Thai girls are not market smart in the traditional sense but they are smart in recognizing a drooling sucker when they see one. They know that first time tourists will pay more. They also know that frequent tourists and local farangs will not pay more than it should cost. They will also quote a high price if they don't really want to be with a particular guy and they will also give you a great deal if they like you and sometimes a freebie (if they really like you) but you have to spend some time with them. This last option can get complicated.
The fact that there is more supply than demand in Thailand makes it favorable for the customers although at "hot" bars the price is almost always fixed unless you establish some kind of a connection with a girl (I'm not talking about love here). Girls would prefer go with a guy they like and make a little less but feel comfortable and have a good time. This is true for most hookers in Thailand, they sell themselves out of need and would prefer to fuck a guy they like over making more money. But they are the greedy ones or the ones that they think they are so "hot" and will try to suck the most out of you. I once picked a college student from a club who claimed she always got 3000 for st (she was "hot" and good english) but after some negotiating she took my 1000 offer.
In my experience, the Thai hooker is out there trying to survive and have no idea on how to analyse the market they are in. What they do very well is to try to get the most of money out of you but I also found out that if you are firm with your price they will respect you and give a good time anyway....
I'd say in this case that seller's expectations are still at least a partial factor -- a TG can decide that she'll go ST once for 3000 baht or three times for 1000 baht, and as long as she's getting someone to agree one out of three times then she's doing as she expects. If two out of three agree then she's ahead in the deal. And in this case, perishability is often very much a dead-on factor in BG economics.
I always remember something I read in a travel article years back that I though was very much to the point. The writer was talking about the process of bargaining, and how from the seller's perspective getting what you asked for was a disappointment. How could this be, the article asked, if you were paying a far higher price than you should be? Simple -- because if you were willing to pay the initial asking price without blinking or bargaining, then obviously the seller should have asked for more, so in the end, he actually lost profit.
So the seller sets prices with the expectation that he's going to get moved down into a more reasonable zone if they're too high, or will move them up if customers are paying exactly what's asked because there is obviously a greater profit margin available.
I would assert that tipping TGs well for an exceptional experience is a far more important factor in helping raise the quality of delivered service than is paying a premium agreed-upon price. That way there's a clear correlation between an understanding of what the baseline market price is and how to move into the status of a premium provider.
StreetSmart
09-15-02, 16:19
Freeler,
The answer Grasshopper is:
Because they can...
I think you're right about the confidence side of things, Freeler, and I'd also say that those without confidence or experience are also more likely to simply let the little head do the thinking. So when a TG names a price, they just say ok. Goes back to my pizza theory -- it's an impulse purchase seen to be priced low enough that no real further thought is given, even if you're being overcharged. And if people can charge twice as much for a pizza and still get people to pay then they will.
Ah, Skinless, I've now been reduced to virginity status? I know it's the Japanese that specialize in that kind of surgery, but I didn't know it was also available for the testosterone set :)
Skinless -- I understand the idea of clipping things down only to what's essential, but you do lose the flow and context of the discussion that way, and sometimes it's not just about the answers but how the questions come to be. Repetition is part of the nature of online forums -- someone is always entering into the process anew, and they rarely take the time to read through things as opposed to simply asking questions. Your summaries will be buried down in things in a month or two, and the circle will continue.
And your BB friend's email to you that going back would not be good for you is perfect -- honest, and of couse also filled even more with the siren's song. :)
Thailand is pretty much second to none on the sex change operations (I've read that it's about $6000 there as opposed to $25k elsewhere) but I don't know about the virginity ones. I'd presume they are probably pretty good at it, since they certainly know what they're doing on the other stuff, and it doesn't seem that complicated comparatively. An article I read said that about 1/3 of the patients overall for plastic surgery are foreign, and Bumrungrad Hospital was described as a round-the-clock plastic surgery factory.
And you're right about IOTR -- he came, he saw, he came, he left happy. Mai pen rai.
I now live in fear of you boiling the rest of us down to one post, Skinless -- a rather terrifying concept (though I recall a writer I met once saying that he, like pretty much everyone else, probably only had two or three things to say, and the trick was to say them in interesting enough ways that the audience thought there was more too it than that...) What if we discover we're all noise and no signal?
In any event, I just wanted to note, as a follow-up to a conversation of some months ago, that the baht/dollar exchange rate is around 43:1, and it seems to have become fairly stable. So it's basically pretty much what it was 2 years ago, down a bit from the highs of mid-2001 when it was near 46, but recovered from this summer's drop. Not that a couple of baht per dollar is much to worry about in any event...
Originally posted by skinless
So, if I want to hire 1,2 or 3 Bkk ladies who will fuck me and each other senseless all nite long, but won't be hos in public, what should I do?
So is this seen as a longer than one night term thing? I don't really get the "hos in public" side of the equation -- but I suspect that if you're going to track down several truly slutty girls and walk around en masse, you're going to have a hard time getting them all on the same page. Why not simply accept that if you're a foreigner walking around with several young women people are going to get the general idea of what's going on anyway?
The problem is that if you go for the shy demure type who might not look like a worker out in public, there's absolutely no guarantee that she'll be the tiger you're looking for. My experience has been that while some of the girls who are shy end up as aggressive marvelous bedmates, others are truly shy and simply end up as starfish. (And, of course, the outwardly aggressive or slutty ones are often just the most hard-core money seekers.)
I look forward to other people's ideas here -- this seems like the quest for the grail to me, but I wish you luck and will gladly leech any decent suggestion myself :D
Hmm Z, you were the one who brought up the currency exchange thing in the first place, if I recall correctly...
skinless,
If you want to trap whatever she typed then try to buy a product called "Keyboard Catcher" that is connected with the keyboard's jack behind the PC. I have never used one but have seen on the magazine.
Originally posted by skinless
This might be particularly a problem if the bf is a student and prone to prank in which case your emails might be sent to all his student buddiesand from there all around cyber space. The two emails had been bounced back and one of them had a University of Queensland student address on it: he probably accessed through the UQ site and then allowed her to open her hotmail account. I have now deleted all her emails, except for the two which bounced, which are marked as unread. I will keep y'all informed. Problem is i can't trap her Sent emails. Oh well.
Umm, I'm curious taodan -- how exactly would you suggest using such a product to capture a bar girl's email? Put it on every internet cafe in Bangkok and Pattaya?
skinless, freeler, zoe- etal.
Reading your views on TG has been very enlightning. Somehow, the tone I get is that you all are very jaded and sound angry. What is the diffrence between a TG ho and an White Ho in the states or any where else in the world.
As long as men are thinking with their dicks the ho will always command the highest price. If men are willimg, the market will always bear it.
On the other side of the coin, at the risk of being ridiculed, do the ho's do it for fun? especially in Third world countries. It is an economic neccessity(?) and I kind of applaud them for their tenacity and courage, them being in the world they are in.
As one of you said it is pure economics, supply and demand.
Then on the other hand what is wrong with the hos trying to find a bf to take care of them. I know the percentage is miniscule but I have come accross some TG where itr was a way out of their miserable life. I certainly can't find fault with that. I would do the same if I were in the same situation.
What do you think. I would welcome your comments.
Duniawala -- well, I for one am not at all jaded and not in the least bit angry. Far from it -- I'm happily and eargerly looking forward to the immense pampering I know I'm in for on my upcoming trip, and I look forward to spending time with some gorgeous and alluring Thai women. Let's be clear, though, that not being jaded doesn't at all equate to being a fool or being taken advantage of. The basic nature of pay-for-play is that the two sides have differing agendas, and I think that's perfectly fine. My approach is that as long as I'm getting what I want out of the equation and I'm not feeling taken advantage of, then I'm thrilled. I'm very happy to pay the going rate for such an experience, and I'm willing to tip well for that which goes above and beyond.
Do I think the woman I may be with is married or has a Thai boyfriend? Possibly and even probably. Do I think she'd like to hook me into sending money to her once I'm back home or to give her far more than she's used to getting? Sure. Do I expect that games are going to be played to convince me that something more is going on that client-provider? Absolutely. Is that a problem? If it's not for her then it's not for me. I'm certainly not planning on marrying her or sending money, and she for the most part doesn't really think I'm going to either.
As to the differences between the Thai provider and others, there are a number of very obvious ones, mostly revolving around the less business-like and more GFE sense of the whole thing, and I for one don't feel those are as evident in the 3F or heart-of-darkness approach to things. (My personal opinion and choice, and I certainly don't begrudge folks their own.) One of the concerns that is always mentioned here is the danger of guys losing their heads over Thai women because they're not used to being treated so well -- to me, that side of things gets minimized if you're just approaching things from the half-hour experience side of things, and for some guys that's a really good thing. If you're the type to lose your head, then you should well heed the advice here about keeping your guard up. Me, I know the difference between fantasy and real life, and at my core I'm a heartless self-centered bastard who works to hide it as well as possible on the outside, so my derangement quotient is minimized, which means I can be nice and wallow as much as I like without real danger. And as I've said elsewhere, in general I'm more looking at the overall experience as opposed to simply the boffing, though that obviously enters into the equation.
Thai sex workers are people, with hopes, dreams and problems same as anyone else. I've got my own. That's the way the world works, and as long as I can spend some time, and they can spend some time, and there's a reasonable amount of money exchanged and both of us are happy with the transaction, everything's good. No anger or sense of being jaded in the process -- it's a fresh walk in a beautiful garden each time. If it stops being that, then I'll stop doing it.
Skinless -- horrors, perhaps Z and I are morphing! Talk about the odd couple!
No disagreement from me, Z, though I think if this is a rash of posters it's a rather minor one. Even taking into account the language differences, LOS is astonishingly easy to get around in, and certainly tourist friendly. Even though I generally prefer slightly longer-term assignations, it's sure as hell not because I need to hire a tour guide as well as a bedmate. I can only presume that this comes from newbies nervous about foreign travel, period.
Originally posted by adleZ
I was recently concerned about a rash of posters looking for Thai girls to be their tour guides during their stay in Thailand. You know somebody to get them from here to there, buy food, go to the market, get train, plane tickets, etc... arrange taxis, and maybe fuck. This is my concern - If you are a well off male who has a successful job, saved his money, can get up in the mornings put your own clothes on, start your car, fix your car, cut your lawn, and other stuff that you do form where evr you are from... then why in the world when you step foot in Thailland cant you get on with your daily chores? It appears some of you cant function in Thailand unless you are in the company of some illiterate Thai farm girl to be your "tour guide." What is all this about? Do you actually think this rice powered fuck machine knows anything about being a tour guide? It is sad to see grown men looking for Thai hos to be their leader. Damn... It is down right pathetic. I see several posters here like Skinless, Freeler, Joe_Z who know where I am coming from. Thailand is not the Grand Canyon nor Ney York art museum where a knowledgeable guide would have valuable information to share. Thai girls are for f^&king. PERIOD. Get out and be a risk taker and arrange your own trips. Get your own bus tickets. Experience what it is like to travel in a foreign country, make mistakes... This is all apart of the fun and having some 4th grade educated Thai ho planning your itinerrary is sure way to ruin your trip. You want to be the boss, act the boss. Dont be a weenie when you come to Thailand. Always 3f these rice fueled f$%k machines!!!
Ze.lda
I totally agree with you
Originally posted by adleZ
I was recently concerned about a rash of posters looking for Thai girls to be their tour guides during their stay in Thailand. You know somebody to get them from here to there, buy food, go to the market, get train, plane tickets, etc... arrange taxis, and maybe fuck. This is my concern - If you are a well off male who has a successful job, saved his money, can get up in the mornings put your own clothes on, start your car, fix your car, cut your lawn, and other stuff that you do form where evr you are from... then why in the world when you step foot in Thailland cant you get on with your daily chores? It appears some of you cant function in Thailand unless you are in the company of some illiterate Thai farm girl to be your "tour guide." What is all this about? Do you actually think this rice powered fuck machine knows anything about being a tour guide? It is sad to see grown men looking for Thai hos to be their leader. Damn... It is down right pathetic. I see several posters here like Skinless, Freeler, Joe_Z who know where I am coming from. Thailand is not the Grand Canyon nor Ney York art museum where a knowledgeable guide would have valuable information to share. Thai girls are for f^&king. PERIOD. Get out and be a risk taker and arrange your own trips. Get your own bus tickets. Experience what it is like to travel in a foreign country, make mistakes... This is all apart of the fun and having some 4th grade educated Thai ho planning your itinerrary is sure way to ruin your trip. You want to be the boss, act the boss. Dont be a weenie when you come to Thailand. Always 3f these rice fueled f$%k machines!!!
Ze.lda
Well Put adleZ,
Next thing ya know they'll need hands crossing the street :rolleyes: sheeh!!
Sorry for the confusion guys. I misunderstood Skinless's message. I thought he was talking about his live-in girlfriend. Of course, it would be against the law to do that at the public Internet cafes.
Originally posted by joe_zop
Umm, I'm curious taodan -- how exactly would you suggest using such a product to capture a bar girl's email? Put it on every internet cafe in Bangkok and Pattaya?
On the Thai Girl Tours or the Sex Tours in Thailand. This is a waste of time and money. Anybody that is planning to use them, please just sent me your money and I will set you up with a tour myself from the U.S.! That is how easy it is.
Now really, if you can talk, and you are not missing major body parts. You can pick a personal tour guide in about 5 minutes that you have hand pick and talk to for a few minutes at least. And she will take you any where and do anything for you for 2 hours or 10 Days.
Do not have travel office pick one for you, which they are trying to scamming any money that they can get from you or you pick over the internet. Most of these Travel Agencies that do the Sex Tours charge you enough money that you could stay at 5-Star Hotels, have a private driver the whole time and 3 girls at all times if you did it yourself. But with them, you have one girl, no driver and you stay at a 3-Star or maybe 4-star Hotel.
I on a past trips to Bangkok, I decided I wanted to live like a King on this trip. Which everybody should do once? So I rented a two Room Suite with an in room Jagazzi in the room at a 4-Star Hotel (so I could have girls with no problem)($45.00a day). I had the Hotel get me a private driver in advance, which he was on call at all time ($45.00 a day/plus expenses, with his car, a newer Toyota), a Cell Phone so I could call him ($20.00 for 10 Days, using my U.S. Phone with Thai DSML card in it). This was one dream week! Going anywhere in Bangkok, having a tour guide, the driver that spoke good English and knew where to go for the fun and I mean fun!
We would go site seeing, go to massage complexes (that where huge) not close to Sukhumvit, and also go to the normal tourist area during the day. Then at night, he would drop me off and be a phone call a way, at Nana, Patpong, Soi Cowboy, etc. and I would play. Some nights, I was lazy, I would have him go get 1 or 2 girls and bring them to the room and give him the night off. He would get young cuties that do not work in the club world. I treated him a few days to a massage and took him out drinking one night.
I could write for days about this. But, at the end of the trip. The whole trip cost me $3300.00 US in Thailand. And I did live like a King! Great Food the whole time(5-Star meal for every meal), being taking care of hand and food by the driver and the hotel staff, going any where I want too and the girls. Over the 10 days, I was with 26 girls, multiple visits with some of the girls. I know what it is to be a king! This was last October, since then, the hotel was sold to new owners with a new staff and I was stupid and did not get the drivers phone number. I have been there 3 times since. I wish I could hookup with the driver again for some fun.
The bottom line is, if you are not scare of a different country and not scare to try new things. It is easy to get around Bangkok without an over paying a travel office to setup your trip and get a girl that you may not connect with.
You can have a great, great time on about $140.00 US a day to include the hotel.
I love the adult fun in Thailand. It is truly the Worlds Adult Disneyland! Everybody should visit it once.
Jim
thanks for your viewpoint. well taken.
Joe_zop my apologies. I think the liquor was overflowing when i wrote my post. and yes it is flowing now as i write ( excuse the typos, if I have any)
Anyway, just to clarify, duniawala means a man of the world. It is Hindi word. (BTW Hundu is a religion, Hindi is the language). The word itself is singular not 'plural'
I am a product of American capitalism. Born in india, came to US in 1976. Fascinated by the white women. Even married one for 16 yrs.
Now that I am free, I have come to find that in all my travels around the world. Europe, Mexico, S.E. Asia (and of course india) the best experience in my life has been Thailand. It is truly a LOS.
A friend of mine introduced me to paranoia.com. If you guys don't remember, it was a predecessor of WSG. I am sure Jackson can fill you on this. BTW Jackson, this is a great forum. My first trip to Thailand was based on the reviews I read in this forum.
I avoided all the bf's since I was fascinated by the concept of Thermae. For me, at least, it was a positive experience. On the following trips including, one for a month last november, I could never figure out why i should pay a bf, if I could get one without one, from the beer gardens , thermae etc.
In my travels I had bad experiences in my home country which I never had in LOS. The 3f's are good by itself. But once in a while I was overcome by feelings towards the TG. Is that bad? BTW to be very clear, I don't have a TG gf who I send money to. The dollar in the pocket is the best.
On my last trip to BKK in May, I met the same girl I met last November. Not bad looking 7/10. Great in bed and she always likes to bring her friends along. Ruamchitt Plaza hotel is quite understanding. No xtra fees et al. The point I would like to make is that she brought me some presents (with no strings attached) and I was overwhelmed.
Do you guys have any similar experiences?
I agree that TGs are not at all suited for tour guide duty. They are good at finding ST hotels, and great about finding food. I almost always take them out for a bite to eat before the gymnastics begin. (They can go a lot further on a full tank of rice) ;) I’m constantly being introduced to new foods this way, stuff that I couldn’t have discovered on my own. The other advantage is that if they order for you, the food tends not to be the watered down falang variety. “Chawp phet” doesn’t always convince a vendor that you really do want it hot.
On another topic, I find I’m quite a fan of the 3f approach. However, after spending any length of time in one area (Patong for instance), one begins to weave a big web. That is to say, they don’t forget you, so I end up avoiding certain bars, etc., then whole streets. I think that I don’t fully understand the dynamics of being the “butterfly.”
Having said that, I also find the 2-3 day GFE to be quite a rewarding approach. Sometimes the 3f just leads you to somebody who’s worth a couple of days. It has it’s own set of problems, of course, which I guess are also “butterfly” issues.
Part of the problem is that I’ve spent about four months total in Thailand this year. Not working, just holidays. Do I just need a more callous attitude or is there some secret I’m missing? Your thoughts are welcomed.
Duniawala, I have a small box full of gifts from TGs. And I’m always overwhelmed when I get one. Small gifts are part of Asian culture, right?, and in Thailand you have the added tendency for people to throw more money around than they can really afford, for the sake of building face.
I’ve been overcome with feelings toward them before too, (in fact there’s one I can’t quite get off my mind right now) which only adds to the impact of getting a gift. What I wonder about is their reasons for giving, however large of small. Is it just because they’re Thai, or is it a Jedi mind trick they’ve learned works on Falangs?
On having TG as tour guides:
I agree that it is a stupid idea. You do not need a tour guide in Thailand at all, and if you need one, the working girls we have in mind for the job are not qualified.
I am a great supporter of a different idea, which is going sightseeing upcountry with your own girl. There are many advantages, such as she speaks some English where people speak only Thai, which can help if you are lost somewhere between Buriram and Khorat, she can read signs that are written only in Thai, etc.
Bu the main advantage is that she is with you all the time, available for sex whenever you want it, and her presence saves you the pain of having to go out in the evening to find a TG to your taste. Obviously, butterflying is out of the question, but you can still give her time off and go to massage.
Nothing at all wrong with being affected by the small gifts TGs bring, as it's certainly a nice gesture, and nothing wrong with lying on the bed pleased as she cooks or cleans the place, but being overwhelmed takes it a bit too far. It can be part of that additional sense of the GFE that is so attractive about the Thai experience, and it's a wonderfully attractive contrast to what we're used to, but it's also exactly the kind of thing that can cause guys too read too much into the experience and lose their heads. I think the key is to look at it within the context of a cultural difference as opposed to something this TG does specifically for you -- yes, she may do it because that's part of her personality, part of her background, part of an expression of how you treat her, but that doesn't mean that she's being emotionally affected in the same way you are.
And Duniawala, no problem. I dove into this forum a long time ago asking the not dissimilar question of why people needed to express so much hostility and distain for TGs. I just think your brush was a bit broad -- it's far from the majority here who have anger or are jaded, there are plenty of folks who have their heads in a very good place about the process, and some of those who seem not to are actually merely engaging in hyperbole.
Skinless -- thanks for the Amnesty link. I agree with you that it's an absolute travesty and hopefully the petition will do some good, though that's the kind of cultural scenario where people tend to get their backs up. Ironic, to say the least, in a place like Nigeria, where corruption is almost a parlor game, though, that something like this would have managed to get as far through the system as it has. Also ironic considering how out of step the whole thing is with the general African approach to sex and sexuality.
Tapioca's Titty Travels (TTT) LLC.
Have you ever wanted to experience the "nightlife" of BangCOCK and yet are afraid to go because you might not know where to go? Well, fear no more. Email me with this special promotions code and Tapioca will personally guide you. With places like the ever popular and mysterious Soi Cowboy...ooooohhhhh, the hidden "massage" parlours where one or two (or three or four) very friendly Thai beauties await to service your every want and desire. Please email me and we can set this up. Due to the already high demand for our services, our earliest travel dates are set for October 2003.
Special Promotions Code: wannafuckmeathaiho
email: tapioca1688@hotmail.com
So the business school studies are going extremely well, huh, Tap? :D
Tapioca,
Is that a case study from business school or what? :-)
Hey guys,
Good thread going on here, a lotta sense. Nice post Z.
Nothing to add about BKK, but I did just get back from Palau. Forget it for anything but diving.
Hopefully, I'll make it to the LOS in November.
Later, FD.
Cebu Local
09-25-02, 19:13
firedick
glad to hear you are back from palau,anyway wanted to get your two cents opinion or anybodys opinion,will be in BKK aka LOS from oct 22-25 for a tradeshow that is going to tie me up 9 to8,,since my time is limited should i just contract somebody for LT every night on my first day or follow Z and FFF.feeling a bit lazy to go out every night looking for pussy,any suggestions on how much i should pay for 4 days,i know the ST and LT rates,how about the 4 day rates 1500,2000 ,2500??? daily hope you could help,see you in AC or cebu sometime soon regards
Howdy Cebu,
Nice to see you outside of your usual neighborhood.
The guys here can be of a lot more help than I. But, this isn't your first trip to the LOS is it ?
If yes, I would stick to the 3 F's. The Thai girls are much more mercenary, albiet gorgeous, than the Filapinas you're used too.
I think I'm getting to know you well enough to suggest the beer gardens, rather than the go go bars. Where are you staying ? If in Sukumvit, I like the "Bier Garten" on Soi 7 opposite the Park hotel. It's also walking distance to Nana Plaza. Do not consider staying at the Park. Armpit, and way overprice for what you get. The Federal on Soi 9 isn't a bad deal and they are guest friendly. A hike though, down to Sukumvit.
Regulars. please feel free to add to or correct this info. I know I'm a "newbie" compared to you old salts.
I'll be back in Angeles in early December. Hook up for a beer ? If may arrive early enough to make it down to Cebu.
FD
Cebu Local
09-26-02, 15:05
guys
this is not my first trip to LOS,but have been away for 5 years,got a little phobia with the 3 F, dick because you may remember i got drugged and robbed and almost died because of someboby i picked up in patpong freelancing almost 9 years ago.that is why i have this phobia with freelancers and would prefer somebody from a place to hunt and track down,rather then just off the street.for you old salts,she slipped something into my drink ,while i was pissing in the bathroom in my room,woke up in the hospital after the hotel staff found me unconcsious,learned never to let down my guard even for a second,so was thinking somebody who could be traced to a bar,MPor agency would be less likely to pull a repeat of this,hoping for your advice
Cebu -- well, massage parlors would probably be the overall safest, if that's the primary concern. Go-go bars are probably next on the list, especially the more established ones, as you've got at least some degree of recourse there, and you're dealing with women who, while they may be a bit more hard-core, are also not likely to be willing to change their place of employment or habit. Beer bars where the girls are employed as opposed to freelance places might be the places where you'd get closest to the freelance experience but still have some higher degree of safety.
Your degree of concern is understandable, but I think the safest overall thing is just to be overly fastidous with drinks or food. Just use bottles or things with tops, order new ones if you go out of the room, keep your radar up, and you should be fine.
I'd probably stay away from freelancers if I were with your history as well. Not so much because I personally have any great concerns there, but because the idea is to have a good time, and who wants to be looking over their shoulder or worrying all the time? Enjoy -- one bad apple shouldn't make you swear off fruit.
SHIT !
Of course. I remember that story. I guess I don't know you (or I'm prone to forget shit) that well afterall.
Joe Z's advise sounds right on the money. And I do love those soapy massages.
FD
Cebu Local
09-26-02, 23:53
Guys
Thanks for the advice,will probably stick with the soapies,regards to evereybody
VictorMason
09-29-02, 03:30
Originally posted by adleZ
Cebu Local:
After all, you are in Thailand to get laid and not really try to carry on a conversation with some 4th grade educated bar girl. Instead of sitting with some ho, go see a movie or something. 3f all the hookers in Thailand. They have nothing good to offer other than their bodies. Do you get the point?
Z.elda
Yes, I get the point. The point is that you, adleZ, are scum.
Cebu Local
09-30-02, 01:04
vic
personally i do not think adleZ is scum,i think he represents one point of view,joe zop,skinless,tapioca are other viewpoints.personally i think he may be extreme,but that his opinion and we have to recognize everybody has freedom of opinion.i have a soft spot and have been a sucker for the sick mother and water buffallo crap,aand there are real suckers who fall for these stories,"i love you long time,just like monkey to banana"but here is where i disagree with adleZ,sometimes some of these girls are really unhappy and genuinely want to leave the business.back home,i have helped a few leave the business,one i put through school to finish her college degree and who is currently finishing her thesis for her mba,she also is fantastic in the sack since she is also currently my executive assistant.another has a small garment stall i helped her set up.
but i have also had a bunch of women scam me.regarding thai women,they are such good actresses and scam artists.my personal opinion is that they would rarely genuinely fall for farang like us,since in thai culture farang are something to be ashamed of and looked on as a milking cow,my friend s
with thai girlfriends say they so high maintenance asking for jewelry,perfume,cash etc.but again that is my viewpoint regards
Cebu Local
09-30-02, 02:01
skinless
i owe you a clarification,i did not mean to say all thais are acting,it is just a matter of perspective,thais are a proud and free people who kinda pride themselves on resisting western influence,therefore all things being equal they would prefer fellow thais,filipinos are very westernized and 68% according to a recent survey would prefer a foriegner to a filipino,so we have two different worldviews here,one that is hostile to western influence and another that embraces it,so while a thai might be ashamed of a farang boyfriend,a normal filipina would flaunt and proudl show him off.later on my mba girl regards
>It is impossible to find an honest Thai girl...
Well, considering that Diogenes spent his days in Athens searching for an honest man, I suppose that shouldn't be a surprise. If you're a person in the habit of interacting with folks who make up the lower economic and social stratas of society, you pretty well know the score, and you need to add in a Thai cultural flavor and go from there. Anyone who's spent time working with, say, drug addicts, knows well that deception and misdirection are pretty much the norm, but that there are still people you'll find who are exceptions. If you're going to look for the exceptions you've got to figure on getting burned a fair amount of the time, and inviting drug addicts into your home means you've got to figure on getting ripped off at least a few times. Depends on how good you are at handling fire, and how much you like the heat.
Now, I agree with Z that it's sure as heck more likely that you're going to get scorched if you're thinking with the little head. But if it's your thing to interact with TGs and you're doing it with your eyes open, are aware you're going to get burned at times, as Cebu has acknowledged has happened with him, then it's up to you. Cebu doesn't sound unhappy with his choices -- even factoring in getting scammed. (That said, if you're a newbie, you're an absolute fool if you want to go that route.)
Nothing says you can't both go to movies and "carry on a conversation with some 4th grade educated bar girl" if that's your thing. Education is not the same as intelligence, and I've met tons of truly stupid people with college degrees.
Skinless, I think your commentary sums it up -- everyone's got hopes and dreams, and everyone's a sucker one way or another. I happen to think that at the top the list are forty and fifty-something farangs who somehow think twenty-year-old TG sex workers are going to be madly in love with them, but, hey, it's a long list.
Z's way of the 3Fs is unquestionably and clearly the safest approach. But there are other ways as well, if you have your head on straight and don't mind some degree of risk or loss, as Cebu demonstrates. (And I think it's worth noting that Cebu's horror story was not at all attached to the kind of relationships he described below, but instead to a more casual freelance encounter.)
Wow,
tonights reading has been epiphanous. "I" am an emotional cripple. I live and work in L.A. and compare girls I date here to those I boink for cash there. How do they messure up ? How do you think ? But, I think that I may do the same thing in reverse ! I get over there and wonder why my "date" doesn't act more like a girlfriend ! I even get my feelings hurt sometimes when I feel I've been mistreated. Does this make me a stupid loser ? No, it makes me human. But we humans do do dumb things from time to time. Are you guys telling me that she really didn't mean "she loves me like monkey loves banana" ? Damn it ! I love that line.
Joe Z,
I liked your comparisson of a working girl and a junkie. They are very similar in behavior. Does that make all of us "co- dependants" ?
Did you have to look up the spelling of Diogenes ?
Vic,
You gotta get to know Z. He's not evil, just one of the far sides of our debates. Most of us have had enough bad experiences with working girls to understand where he's coming from.
Cebu,
Your point about the way Filapinas view a Western boyfriend, are on target. Probably why I've had long term relationships with them and stick to the 3f's in Thailand. I have a Thai girlfriend here. She's been here 7 years and we will never get over the cultural differences.
Later guys,
FD
JuiceSpike
09-30-02, 11:55
hello....
To say that the Thai hooker is a great actress is to admit that you have lost all your perception senses or you dick is thinking for you. Thai girls are basically "friendly" prostitutes and compared to western hookers they may appear to be playing your girlfriend thing but they are just making money.
I think the Thai women are good at lieying but they are obvious about it too. I'm always entertained in catching them playing their little games. The problem is that guys going to Thailand are either starving for something or have been deprived of sex and attention that when they get there they are no longer thinking straight.
I think too many guys in here give the Thai women way too much credit and forget that thay are simply humans doing one the worlds most shitty jobs. Women around the world will use their sexuality to get something out of men, no exception with the Thai girls. They know very well you want it bad and the will milk you if they can.
I agree with Joe that is possible to find an honest hooker in Thailand but be ware on how you define "honest." You are in Thailand to fuck as many girls as possible for little money and they know this. Some girls are more intelligent than others and the smart ones will take you for a ride if they can because their game is not to fuck as many men as possible but to fuck as fewer as possible for more money.
>smart ones will take you for a ride if they can because their game is not to fuck as many men as possible but to fuck as fewer as possible for more money.
Very well put, Juice -- and that aptly defines both the fascination and the danger. And think about it -- who doesn't want more money for less work? Who, regardless of where you work and what you do, thinks of themselves as only being worth what most people get? Not many -- most anyone with even a small degree of self-worth thinks they deserve to be on the higher end of the pay scale.
And FD, umm, actually I'll confess I didn't look it up until you mentioned it, thinking then that I might have gotten it wrong :)
Cebu Local
09-30-02, 14:40
guys
i better clarify my relationships with thais and filipinas,firstly my mba girl is filipina and i met her when she was working as an escort,because she did not have money to finish college,she was a middle class girl whose dads little hardware store went bankrupt,she had graduated from high school and had a year of college,so she was "normal"girl down on luck.so she is in my opinion a great catch because she can fire and ice bj,40 plus positions while discussing integrated marketing comminications.this one i am keeping.the one with a little clothing store is thai whom i met 7 years ago,she was a parttimer who was working in a bar in soi cowboy,she got my attention because she warned me that my passport fell out of my coat onto the floor.she had a good heart and was another lower middle class thai girl down on luck.both were basically normal girls with education down on their luck.also got scammed by 3 thais and 4 filipinas over the past 9 years,was suckered by the sick mom,water buffalo etc stories.
so i guess 2 out of 9 is not great odds and i do not try to "save" every hooker i meet,the majority are only worth then 3 f"s,i like the mix though of junk food worth the 3 f"s and the occasional gem like my mba girl and my thai girl who now sells clothes,i guess it is after good karma that makes try to "save" girls,but i kinda stick to normal girls down on their luck,not the 4th grade pros who incidentally are fun to have sanuk with.regards guys
That matches my experiences, Freeler. There are plenty of people trying to hustle you or get you to buy this or that at ridiculous prices, but as far as outright stealing or keeping things, not very many, and those trying to serious mislead or cheat you as opposed to just get you to pay a high price are fairly rare. Same same bar girls, though, as Cebu and some others have discovered, there are definitely exceptions.
I think it's indicative of the whole Asian "face" thing, and the different roles they are placed in. A hostess is there to serve/take care of you, including returning the things that we clumsily leave behind. If they feel they are somehow responsible, it is somewhat binding. I have asked local hoodlums, who would quite likely rip off my bike, to watch it for me. It's worked thus far.
I may be able get to the LOS in Nov or Dec. Anyone who would like to pull up a barstool, let me know.
FD
JuiceSpike
10-01-02, 13:29
Skinless wrote: " I just love the element of doomed love..." Thailand is the perfect place to find this....
Skin, many Thai girls would find your comment romantic....
And, of course, she's getting email from a friend who's settled down with a farang, and is out of the game. So once she figures out she's being strung along her heart goes crack, her protective instinct kicks in, and voila, another sadder, perhaps wiser but no doubt more bitter and probably moremercenary, bar girl. Meanwhile, her Czech guy ends up with the same process. May the circle stay unbroken... no question, doomed love (or lust mistaken for love, or, since we're talking about cultural as well as social differences, different understandings of what love is) is the theme.
I believe it was Cebu whose passport dropped out, not Freeler. And I originally thought wft is someone doing wearing a coat in LOS, but then, I'm from northern climes :)
My countdown is at thirty days as of today. Can hardly wait, as I've got a whole lot of nothing to get done.
Doesn't having the friend in Germany just make it worse in all regards? Since now she has someone to compare herself to (and of course fall short against) no matter what happens. It's the same on either side of the game, I think -- the worst thing a punter can have is a friend who's pulled someone out of the game and is happy, and I think the same in reverse is true for the women in the game. As you say, the odds are just plain lousy. I'm sure she's probably got friends warning her, too, probably locally, but the one who's made it work is the more powerful (and deadly) voice.
Cebu Local
10-01-02, 14:21
guys
i was the guy who had his passport in his coat,blazer actually,just came from a meeting and went straight to the bar,was stupid enough to bring my passport because i was changing 2k$ of travellers checks earlier and figured that they would want a passport for larger volumes in the bank for id.we all make mistakes
Skinless,
Settle down ? Where ? LOS or home country ?
Personally, I would not consider it.
FD
MuffDriver
10-04-02, 00:15
Juice,
When you said, "The problem is that guys going to Thailand are either starving for something or have been deprived of sex and attention that when they get there they are no longer thinking straight," it was like you were reading my mind.
I went on my first quest for sanuk last month, and I met a number of our brethren who seemed to have had many (good and bad) experiences with Western and Asian women and who furthermore seemed convinced that no matter where you are in this world, chicks will use their sexual powers to get money or material things out of us guys....or to put it in politically correct terms (though this phrase gives me the heebie jeebies whenever I hear it), all women are looking for "financial security". I started to wonder, besides the obvious carnal joys that await us, what drives us to keep coming back over and over again? As a newbie, I was shocked when I asked other guys how many times they'd been to Thailand, they told me numbers like 8, 15, and 26!
I leave for LOS two weeks from today, and I'm planning another visit in November. I don't think I'm any more (or less) fu*ked up than anyone else (here or elsewhere), but I wonder, as the Juice man put it, what are we REALLY searching for when we come to LOS for a boink-fest? Or are we simply the ultimate realists when it comes to our understanding of the dynamics between men and women? (Money for pussy, you say???....ok, you got a deal!!)
Muffdriver
P.S. Probably as much as Firedick, I love that "I love you like monkey love banana" line. I can hardly wait until I hear it or some variation thereof myself.
>besides the obvious carnal joys that await us, what drives us to keep coming back over and over again?
The attention may be cartoonish -- hello, hansum man -- but it is still attention, and it takes at least a little while for that to be too much of a good thing. And like cartoons, it may not be real but it can still be a great deal of fun. Sometimes in this thread we spend so much time dissecting the nuances and the dangers that we forget to say that the bottomline is still getting not only attention from beautiful exotic women, but being able to have sex with them for what in other places would be a round of "hello, nice to meet you" drinks.
Skinless -- well, this girl seems to catch everything, doesn't she? You can be in denial on STDs, but pregnancy's a bit harder to ignore. Sounds to me as though you're right that she's not really tempermentally suited for this line of work and headed for damage. Perhaps the good side of this will be a reality check on where the lover boy farang stands, but I doubt it, somehow.
And well said, Freeler. I head back for the place, the sense of the day to day, and what I'm seeing that's new to me. The bonk-o-rama is a great addition to the equation, but for me, personally, there's far more to it than that. Otherwise I'd be planning to spend all my time in Bangkok or Pattaya where the circus is always in town and in session as opposed to the vast majority of it elsewhere.
Bingo !
It may indeed be cartoonish, but it's an acceptance of the way things are. It's realistic. What do I have to offer a 19 y.o. hottie here in L.A. ? Not a damn thing. I'm probably about her fathers age, and not rich by L.A. standards. But in SE Asia, as Joe Z. said, that "Hello, nice to meet you" round of drinks cost assures you of at least some phsyical outlet.
I think most of the posters here get it. Perhaps even deserving of an MBA degree (Masters of Bangkok Attitude, grudgingly handed out by professor emeritus Z).
FD
MuffDriver
10-05-02, 01:47
Freeler/joe_zop, interesting perspectives, but would you (or anyone else on this board) make Thailand such a regular destination if the girls weren't there? I understand what you're saying, in that the degree to which guys go back to LOS for boinking varies from a mild interest to a strong desire. But the point is that Thailand IS the place that we select to visit more than anyplace else, even though there are a lot of other places in the world worthy of siteseeing. The first time I went to LOS, I spent all of my time in the Thai islands relaxing and tanning, and then I found out about this Forum and I was more than just a little intrigued by all the experiences that the guys here have had.
Firedick, I appreciate your candor, and I believe that I am returning (and am likely to continue to return), because I've grown a little tired of all the BS and (gold-digging) games that guys often have to go through just to get to the point where you can get some attention (as joe_zop says), companionship, and (great) sex with women. A lot of chicks in the USA think "it's all about them." Perhaps it's the same in Europe and the UK.
"I wonder how many of these women are suited for this work."
I wonder, as well, how this is thought of in the villages by women who see it in their future, knowing that their sisters or playmates head off to Bangkok and Pattaya, that their families see money because of it, and that those women reappear changed into new people from those who left. On my last trip, I was with a woman in Ko Samui who, at 27, was brand new to the game, and either once or currently married (could never get it exactly straight, as her English was close to nonexistent, and her fellow workers were understandably engaged in keeping me in the dark.) I was led to understand that she was moving into the game because she and her family (with or without hubby, I've no idea) talked and felt it was the best option for her. I've been trying ever since to picture that conversation, which I suppose shows how grounded in the west and in a culture of plenty I am...
Muff -- I hear you, but personally, yes, I'd go back anyway. In fact, my upcoming trip is mostly to work independently while there, and I was strongly considering going back to Kenya instead, because the landscape there is simply so amazing, and I have a chance to have an absolutely spectacular little cabin on a hill overlooking one of the national parks, with giraffes and zebras wandering past all day just on the other side of the river (and occasionally right next to the cabin as well. (Definitely breathtaking and still something I want to do, just not this time.) I ultimately decided not to go there mostly because the human misery quotient there is so high that I think I'd find it too distracting, but I had no problem finding attractive and attentive female companionship while there, and there's precious little difference in cost in that regard (albeit a large difference in AIDS rate.) I very much like the Thai sensibility and ability to laugh, and that's a very big attraction to me. I'm not in the least discounting the TG side of things, as I'm certainly not a passive tourist in that regard, but of all the places I've been I simply find the combination of cost and ability to be comfortable while hanging out to be best in Thailand.
muffdriver,
just to add my two cents on this;
A good friend of mine is a very frequent traveller to Western Africa, pretty much the same way as I am with Thailand. Over there, women are available and cheap, some of them rather spectacular. He enjoys his time there, but compared to my own experience, he gets little mileage, because he is pretty much on a sex safari, while I enjoy a cultural and sensual experience.
What makes Thailand such an addictive destination is not that women are available, plentiful and inexpensive. All that can be found in many places, just like beautiful beaches, well-appointed resorts etc.
All those other places are fine, but they are not Thailand, and those women are not Thai women. There is something special about "Thainess", this mix of easygoing attitude and old-fashioned decency that can be found in many of the women we meet.
To be honest, if the Thai women were not there, I would probably not go to Thailand anymore, or not that often. But they are there, and will continue to be there, hopefully forever.
I am new to this forum, but just spent about 2 hours reading what was written by others within past few months, while it is heavily raining in BKK...
Seems so weird to me that many people prefer 3Fs approach. Why? To me, fucking the girl for the first time is good, but *she* generally has even much better approach to you after second time you barfine her. She behaves like a "loving girlfriend" even more so.. I stay in BKK now for 2 months and any ST taken was usually pretty good, I unloaded myself a nice way, pretty cheap also, never paid more than 1.000 Baht, sometimes 600-800 (500 Baht, plus 100 Baht "for a taxi"), but nothing beats repeated LT experience!!
Do not get me wrong, I am in no mood of taking these girls to cinemas, discussing investment banking issues with them, or falling in love with them. But I do *like* them (their silky young bodies) and they *like* me. One of these girls, a total stunner, 18 years old, from Isaan, working at Nana just fucks with me *for free* after I barfined her and paid her 1.000 Baht for 2 LTs.. She NEVER asks for money now, doesnt even implies anything, in fact, she tells how good time she is having to some of her friends, so that these other girls are now very interested in fucking me as well:) What a magic! When she is NOT there, of course, which is mostly the case when I drop at 1 a.m. ;) Then it is LEGAL to fuck any other girl and not to be a butterfly to my "girlfriend":O)
I am NOT telling her any love bullshit, neither does she, I think she is just having a good time, feeling as a woman, not as a prostitute when being with me.. GREAT attitude.. Using 3Fs approach, I would have MUCH LESS fun for much MORE money.
The other girl, from one of Patpong's Castle bars, even claims she had her first orgasm with me, is more than happy if I wait for her at 2am outside the bar and the fun begins:) No barfine, no other fees.. Also 18years old, Isaan chick, great looking.
And for some other bars, it is in fact pretty good to walk in several times and just have a drink, no barfines, girls start being interested WHY you never barfine anyone and some of them may offer to go with you for free as you seem to be a "good boy" (occured 2 times at Long Gun at Soi Cowboy). Well, usually not best looking stunners, but still pretty good girls:)
I do NOT pretend to love them, I am their friend and they are mine. Just dress smartly, look seemingly good, not be over 30-35, not grab their asses and tits, just hold her hand and SPEAK to them. Not very many people do it. She is KEEN to have a friend! And so do I!
Of course, sometimes, I just want do do 3Fs approach, but then I take a 90 Baht bus to Pattaya, stay in Welcome Plaza hotel for 600 Baht, pretty clean, and have my fun with some of the freelancers on a beach. Some of them definitely below 18 years old.. Well, I am NOT, definitely NOT, into childs, but 16 years old nice chick willing to fuck is a nice refreshment..
originally posted by freeler
tonytony,
sixteen is **** in thailand...
it doesn't matter how you look at that, it's how the law looks at you!
well, 16 *is* **** if and only if you pay for it :)
MuffDriver
10-05-02, 15:08
Guys,
I found the following links that you might find interesting. The first one is a story (could be partially/mostly fictional) from a TG's perspective about her failed relationship with her farang boyfriend and why relationships between farang and TG's are often a struggle.
http://www.freelancerbar.com/Girls/noi.html
The second one is the SAME story, but from the farang's perspective, which illustrates a number of the differences in Thai vs Western cultural perspectives. Taken together, these stories lend some support to Mr. Z's 3f doctrine, though they don't make the case quite as bluntly.
http://www.freelancerbar.com/Girls/mike.html
The third link is a more scholarly analysis of TG's in the sex trade. It discusses the girls' experiences in the "business", how they view themselves in it, and how they view our part in the trade. It's a long article, but may be worth your time. If you read it while remembering that most Western women are in search of "financial security", you might agree that women are much the same (in this respect) everywhere.
http://www.freelancerbar.com/Girls/academic.html
Good reading,
Muffdriver
P.S. Freeler/joe_zop/Seydlitz, you make some excellent points. I too have found Thai food very tasty, acknowledge the good value you receive from your travel dollars, have experienced and appreciate the culture and "Thainess" that Seydlitz describes, and of course enjoy the attention from the TG's. If the food was mediocre or worse, if travel within the country was expensive, or if the people were rude due to a superiority complex, I probably wouldn't be inclined to return as often or at all.
Nice reading, though you have wonder a bit about the Noi story's real value based on the level of writing, which is far too sophisticated for a bar girl and is clearly either "as told to and embellished by" or absolute fiction. (Not that it wasn't well done and enjoyable, though.)
As far as the dowry side of things goes, I'll confess I never understood what the big deal was about this. It's not as though it's a completely unknown custom elsewhere (though there are tons of variations, with the western tradition more being the woman bringing a dowry/property with her so she doesn't come in empty.) Plus, from what I've read, also available elsewhere on the excellent site Freeler mentions and other places, we're really not even talking about that much money -- dowries for lower-class, up-country girls range from 30,000-50,000baht, with bar girls generally being still lower that that, from 20-30,000baht. Realistically, who would expect to get married for only about $1000 anyway? And 30k baht is less than your plane ticket to Thailand. If you're actually idiot enough to want to marry a bar girl, the dowry part of the money equation is hardly the part of the scenario that you should be questioning...
And before the mighty Z roar is heard as he misreads this, let me say it clearly -- anyone getting so far in the equation that dowry even comes up is an absolute idiot, and deserves the financial fleecing and subsequent heartbreak they are no doubt going to get. And please invite me to the wedding, where I promise I will drink like a fish and eat gluttonously on your tab, so you can leter feel even more that people took advantage of you.
hey dictionary boy, ur invited to my wedding...freeler and skinless too..
oh, one more thing joe, u speak thai? it seems that ur vast knowledge of the english language might actually hinder you when you try to talk to a girl with no formal education.
poot pasa thai mai?
tapioca
My Thai is fairly minimal at this point, but I've arranged some tutoring this upcoming trip -- just got confirmation today, in fact, for my requested times. (Starting two days after my arrival in Chiang Mai a month from now.) Most of my other trips have been only a couple of weeks or so, so I never really put in the time, but since I'm going to be there for two-and-a-half months this time it's worth it.
I am capable of keeping it simple when needed; I just don't really think it's all that necessary in this forum, as this is a bright crowd. (Hey, it's easier to scale down than up :)) I've spent a fair amount of time working with kids in elementary schools, and part of my international work's involved communicating with people whose English skills may be marginal, and I've never had any problem. Any problems I might have communicating with TGs is due to my lack of Thai as opposed to "using big words" LOL. We manage on the important basic stuff; we're just not gonna explore geopolitical nuances unless the terrain being mapped is her bod. 'Sides, there's a difference between talking and writing -- there's more leisure to pick the word with the precise desired meaning when writing.
MuffDriver
10-06-02, 06:21
Skinless,
I think we're in agreement that the chances of a marriage (or other long-term relationship) working out between a Westerner and a TG are remote at best. And while it's true that Mr. Z has been saying this all along, I wanted to provide the group links to other sources of information that shed additional light on the issues that are frequently debated/discussed on this board. After listening to what most guys have to say here and based on my (albeit limited) experience, I think the 3f method makes some sense to protect ourselves from being emotionally crushed and/or financially bitten. But I think we can still interact with the TG's in such a way that respects their humanity and also allows us guys to have the best possible experiences with them. By that, I mean that we can treat them with some dignity and in return, they will be more likely to treat us to unusual amounts of personal and intimate attention.
As a relative newbie, I've been reading this board regularly and looking for additional information on the Web. For those who may not have already read it, there is an interesting book (Private Dancer) posted on the Internet. While the author describes his story as fiction, many important issues we discuss here on this board are also discussed in his book, and it seemed to me like the author really did his homework. I'm certain that a lot of guys here would agree that the author describes how Thai working girls REALLY view us, and I'm inclined to agree. It's a financial transaction; the TG's want our money and we want sex.....and (we probably should) not (expect) much more than that. It seemed like a plausible story about a guy who wasn't thinking with his head. Anyway, here's the link for those of you who are interested:
http://www.freelancerbar.com/Girls/privatedancer.html
As I read the book, I couldn't help but wonder if some of the things that happened to Pete (the main character in the book) have also happened to adleZ. Care to share your personal experiences for the benefit of the others here, Z?
Good reading,
Muffdriver
P.S. I'm not one of those guys who posts a bunch of useless links on boards. I think this book is especially good reading for newbies like me, but it may not be for everyone, as the book is over 200 pages long. I found it interesting and read it within one day.
P.P.S. If anyone here should marry a TG, please invite me to the wedding in addition to joe_zop. I'll be happy to help you [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) away as much money as possible.
Originally posted by adleZ
All:
And, where in the world did TonyTony come from? Are you from this world? Actually believeing that your schlong gave this Patpong bar girl her first orgasm? You are really sad man. And, you think that you have scored with some Nana ho because she fucks you for free.
Hey, adleZ, I do not believe ANY stories BGs tell me, but if I can use these girls for a free and GREAT fuck, why not?? I am not giving them any $$$, nor I will in a future. Never ever. This was the whole point. By friendly approach, instead of 3Fs approach, you are getting much more than in ST experience. And for much less $$$. I know they have their Thai boyfriends, I know they are fucking somebody else several times a week, at least, but they still fuck with me for free. What is your problem with this? If you are not a man that falls in love with somebody you sleep with several times, you should be ok.. And you can always move to a different appartament and not frequent THAT bar, if some problems arrise (none did up to now..).
One day, I want to marry my European girlfriend, but keep comming to Thailand for a real fun:)
Of course, some BGs may get in touch with you after some time they havent seen you, asking for "financial help", but firm NO is sufficient and they actually say "Sorry I bothered you with my call" and I will never hear from them again:)
I now have 3 BGs that did NOT ask for money in a quite long time (4-6 weeks), fuck for free, enjoy it, and me too. 80 Baht for thai dinner doesnt count as an expense.. Fucking somebody 10 times isnt really boring, in fact, it can get better and better every time;) And if one of them will ask for money, firm NO will either end the "relationship" or not, but I do not care, there will be other freebies.
//
btw, that Stephen Leather's book is really good, READ IT! Even better is "Minor Wife" by Christopher G. Moore, any bookshop in BKK has it. Well, anything by Moore is pretty good and worth reading!
I agree that marriage between a Westerner and a Thai woman has only a slight chance of success. But that is true of any marriage !
What I find more interesting to explore is whether marrying a Thai lady decreases the chance of success or otherwise. Or even whether the fact that the Thai lady would be/have been a sex worker alters the equation.
My take is that the cultural gap between Western and Thai cultures is so deep that such a marriage would be a bumpy ride anyhow, but that the sex worker background of the lady would actually help bridge that gap somehow, in the sense that such a girl is at least superficially westernised already, and has practical experience about dealing with a western man (to say the least).
Also the WTG would have a more "practical", some would say cynical, view on the whole thing, which can help identify the respective stakes in the deal.
This being said, I still cannot see why anybody in his right mind would consider marrying a TG. In LOS, it does not give you many more rights (far less than in Western countries), you are still a despised Farang.
Overall, the best deal would be to have a TG as a live-in concubine, with few strings attached. But that is only practical while living in Thailand, I guess.
Cebu Local
10-06-02, 12:44
guys
regarding farang TG marraiges,i personally know of two that worked and about 9 that failed and all except 1 of the 9 were with sex workers.if you want a TG fine,but you improve your chances with normal thai girls.my airline pilot friend ended up marrying his thai actress girlfriend and is now discovering he married her whole family,the sucker or fool is now sending 1K monthly to his in laws,in addition to turning over about 70% of his salary to his wife to manage????.I think their marraige will last because because his wife would be a fool to leave him since he earns about 150K yearly,which she manages ???100K worth.the other one is a normal TG married to the Dutch Ambassador,self explanatory since she was a secretary when he met her.my point thais will only stick with us as long as there is a financial benefit for them,normal TG included.The former bargirl married a german who is a small resort owner here in cebu,so far 5 years and ok so far,so the odds of marraige with TG are not great especially with sex workers,if you prepared to marry one,be ready to support her sick aunt,water buffalo and half her village.etc.I do not mean to offend but just my opinion on my experience
Sounds like the standard "American" marriage arrangement to me.. give everything, get little back.
On marriage to a Thai girl, is not much different than marrying any asian girl. In all asian countries, a person is part of a family unit, not a indiviual. As part of a family, you must help your family, both phyiscal and $$$. In most asian countries, which includes Thailand, there is not a welfare or Social Security system. It is up to the family to take care of them selfs. Other big one that a western have problem understanding is relegion. If you are not open or understand the Budiest. There will be big problems also, in Thailand this is a big problem, because 90% plus are budiest.
So there is only a few ways a marriage to a Thai Girl will work, you as a western open your mind WIDE open, and I mean WIDE open, or find a rich girl from a rich family, or find a girl that does not have any family or friends. If you open your mind, and have a open marriage to a asian girl, it will be one of the best marrages out there, but if you do not this, it will be the very worst marriage you can have!
This is why so many Thai/Western marriages fail, you are marrying a family, not just the girl. So get to know her family also. Accept in being part of her family and supporting the family unit also. Remember, you could be the Great White Hope for the family.
Well, given that basically half of marriages end in divorce, and that the median duration is around seven years, one question might be how far these kinds of marriages stray from that level. If it's an issue of a TG staying with a guy for say, five or six years, and then taking him for all she can, well, that basically means she's not so different from any other woman in the equation, doesn't it?
The only stats on this that I've been able to find that all comparable are regarding Filipino and Thai mail order brides (a study the US INS put together) and the surprising conclusion there is that those marriages -- despite the fact that there are documented examples of real fraud and women leaving as soon as they have a green card or nonconditional permanent resident status -- actually have a lower divorce rate than the US as a whole. Obviously the mail-order bride scenario is different than the Bg one, but I'd have still never have expected that. (I find the sample too low to really be statistically reliable, btw, but it's worth mentioning if only because the report as a whole took an absolutely dim view of the mail-order bride question.)
Let's see: differences in culture, race, language, economic and social status, most likely age and religion -- how many more barriers are needed? The odds are going to be tougher with any single one of those, but here they're all piled up together. And this doesn't even look at different ways of thinking about family, eating, money, how anger and affection are expressed, roles of men and women, etc.
Now, I do also know of some that have worked -- I'm hooking up with a pal this trip whose marriage is now over ten years and counting -- but I think in order for things to work the onus is on the westerner to adapt, as it probably won't happen the other way around, at least to the extent the guy might expect or feel is needed. And I do think the writings from the Freelancer bar highlight those differences.
And Skinless, sorry if I sounded dismissive -- but I dislike and distrust it when western writers write pseudo-first-person accounts of TG lives in order to invest them with more authority and pass them off as real. (I actually rather expect the same thing was done with the Swede Mike's account.) All of the pieces, including the Noi one, had nice insights and were well done, but it's still a westernized version of the BG experience, and I'd just be happier if it was labelled as such. The Cohen article was great, and I'd have gone more into that but I think it speaks well for itself.
I've been hesitantly starting to work my way through a book called "Materializing Thailand" by the Canadian cultural anthropologist Penny Van Esterik which looks mostly at Thai gender relations and their shaping. I suspect I'm probably mostly going to graze it for now, as I've got too many other things to do, but there are some nice snippets so far. Here's a quote from the section on prostitution:
"If brothels, massage parlours and go-go bars are sites where Thai gender and sexuality are visibly constructed, they are also sites that most Thai women have never visited. Other localities such as beauty contests, workplaces, temples, homes and shopping malls shape Thai gender categories more significantly than prostitution.
"When I tell people that I am writing a book about gender and Thailand, inevitably they ask why there is so much prostitution and sex tourism in the country. When I am in the country, both leave my consciousness, replaced by concerns about the propriety, manners and admiration for the competence of Thai women."
I think that last sentence in many ways is a resonant look (from a clearly feminist perspective) at why guys lose their heads.
Wildman -- thanks, good advice. I'm someone with a bit of facility for languages, and I'm reasonably proficient in my native one, but I'm really fairly terrified about trying to tackle a tonal one, and my expectations are extremely low. My purpose is decidedly not to impress bar girls -- I don't expect that's going to be where I'm spending the majority of my time, frankly. For me the motivation is not so much to speak Thai as to understand a bit better what people are saying to me, and make my day-to-day navigation easier. In terms of speaking, I'll be past thrilled if I can get the basic day-to-day polite mewlings down pat. I'm not so big a fool as to think I'm going to spend a couple of weeks studying and have even the vaguest notion I know what I'm doing.
Wildman -- yes, the tutor I've engaged and I have corresponded a bit about a tone, and I've expressed my concerns about a good grounding. At this point I simply have to accept that because I've never tried learning a tonal language, I just can't really have a good enough sense of what's involved to properly manage an informed judgement. Because of that, I'm not positive how far I want to go, so I'm going to give it a shot and hope I'll better understand what the long-term looks like. I figure investing a couple of weeks to start with should give me at least a better idea of whether or not I'm suited to commit to a real course of study. If I am, then I will, as I agree that there's little point in doing it half-way. I'm interested in Thai lit and they have some truly unique writing forms and styles, and I've found it incredibly difficult to find things in translation, which leaves me with the options of either learning Thai (including reading) or just accepting I'm going to have to wait things to filter through.
As I mentioned, my other trips were basically as a short-term tourist, and this one is for a longer stretch of doing a bit of work and learning. I'm hoping to walk away with a sense of whether I want to pursue a truly deeper and more involved relationship with the language and culture, or whether I want to remain what I am at this point -- an interested dilettante.
And, oh, yeah -- given your phone reference -- I actually found Swahili quite a bit easier to get pieces of, because it's not tonal :) and is heavily influenced by European languages at this point.
(And no, Z, this doesn't mean I'm planning on marrying anyone or displacing you as the ex-pat king of Korat.)
>I don't see how (any) knowledge of languages can ever be excess bagage.
I agree, but I'm not about to be under any illusions about my abilities, either. I find that if I don't make that kind of mental click that Wildman aptly describes I don't really "get" the language, and what that click does is mostly help me understand how truly little I know. Given that your average 6-year old knows about 2600 words, and that an average person's vocabulary (true no matter what the language) is supposedly in the range of 100,000, I'd be a fool to expect I'm even going to easily and quickly get to a functional kid's level, not even considering the basic difference in grounding and understanding how the language works...
(And before anyone jumps on me on the vocab estimates, that's from one source, counting distinct forms, which I think is more relevant when making a statement about another language, as you've also got to learn those alternate forms -- and in this case tonal differences -- to be fluent. Other estimates run lower, figuring a college graduate knows between 20,000 and 75,000, depending on how you define vocabulary.)
hey dood..just cause i don't write in clear english cause i don't feel like editing my posts don't mean i can't speak it u idiot...
this ain't no literary journal...just posts to sprout ur thoughts. just don't have da time to write it neatly...on that note, i already speak 2 languages so why not a 3rd?
haha...u edit one word and u think u can go sensei on me.....
heh heh
oh adelz, my 1.98 hooker's still better looking than ur fifty cent street ho in korat
tapioca
oh, btw joe..don't listen to this idiot telling u how hard thai is..its one of the most caveman-ish languages out there...yes, i already spoke a tonal language before learning it, but still...u'll be fine
Thanks, Tap -- the worst I can be is completely idiotic and pitiful, and I've managed to be that many times in life already no matter what the language :D The whole trick is just knowing when that's the case...
Wildman -- again, thanks, and that's pretty much what I got from your post. I understand that with a couple of weeks of work I'll no doubt be able to manage better than before, but that's very different from really understanding how a language works in a layered sense, and I'm someone who likes the textures and complexities of words, so that latter sense is important to me. Now, whether or not I'm willing to commit the time and effort to go after that is something I figure I'll better know after putting in a bit of effort and gauging my comfort. It's been a while since I formally studied a language, and I just don't have a sense of how I'll do -- may have damaged too many brain cells over the years, for all I know.
Freeler -- well, if you're saying that German is easier than Thai, then I've got a shot, as I did a couple of years of German twenty way-plus years ago (now essentially gone due to lack of use) and really didn't find it all that insurmountable in either pronunciation or structure. Complicated constructions, yes, but the logic was clear enough about them.
The tutor I'm using is one recommended by an ex-pat who's married and has lived in Thailand for fifteen years, who has gone through the AUA process and, when I asked him about his experiences with that, I pointed her to me instead, saying he preferred her abilities and learned more from her. So we'll see.
And wildman, your distinction and advice on the journey is well taken. (Communication obviously means understanding as well as being understood, and I'm probably more concerned with the former, as I think knowing what people are saying to me is more important than having my say. They're connected, of course.) The one thing I do like about mucking about in languages is I always have a good time with it, as there is so much of the culture attached there. I'll learn something even if it's not necessarily what I'm planning on :) I'm curious -- did you learn reading at the same time and, if so, was that an advantage or hindrance?
And just to be clear and to try to get this back in the general direction of the topic-- I'm not at all above using practicing my lousy pronunciation as an excuse to chat up a pretty TG, and learn it a bit more while in bed...
JuiceSpike
10-07-02, 03:34
Hey Guys,
How do you guys go from a TG discussion to language and linguistics?
About Deception:
A lot has been said about the Thai woman and how deceptive she is, etc., etc... Here in the states we have deception at even worse levels than prostitution worth a look. There is a whole bunch of CEOs (World Com, Enron etc..) ripping off people with their deals to make themselves richer and screw small investors out a lot of money.... Greed is a worldwide thing and compared to these biz guys gone bad they make the TGs look like angels....
About Pussy and Cash:
A dangerous combination since pussy thrillers will pay the price one way or another. I get chuckles reading about some guys in herewomder why some of these girls are out for the money with greed. These women know we are pussy whipped and they will take advantage of you if you don't control yourself. On my last trip to Thailand in July, I got to hang out (not just to fuck) with some go-go girls and was let into (a little bit) how they operate and was entertaining and educational. They fuck for the money and any chance they have to scheme a guy they will do it. Also, I do not beleive they are the greatest liars in the world, in fact to me they are transparent and catching them on lies is not too hard. They lie out of necessity and survival and I believe these girls are damaged and broken that lying becomes a way of life and many don't know the difference between "western" right and wrong.
Anyway, I have met girls that scheming a guy is not for them. I have met girls that scheming a guy is a sport and a hobby for them. I do believe that many of these girls end up scheming a guy so they can get out of the business. I met one go-go girl who was married to a brit for 3 years just for the security and not for love. She told me that she felt cheap for doing it and eventually divorced him and took no money or property from him.
Of course some of these girls have dreams and even though the odds are against them they dream and wonder what it would be like not have to sell their bodies for money. Then there are the hard core hookers that don't have dreams and are so broken that fucking men becomes a profession for life.
Thailand offers a variety of women, not all liars and schemers. What really gets me are the greedy fuckers in big businesses ripping off people with a grin in their faces.
cheers
>How do you guys go from a TG discussion to language and linguistics?
Well, there's translatiion and then there's translation :D
Juice, a nice quote from the Freelancerbar site academic paper on the whole scheming thing --
"This aspect of deceit is interpreted by the girl as less of a moral sin than as do Westeners, who value honesty as the cornerstone of any kind of relationship. Whereas in Thai culture, such deception, on all levels, is linked to the Thai cultural notion that what one does not know cannot hurt them."
I think that says a lot about both motivation and sense of culpability on both sides. It's also related to the whole bargaining aspect, where the notion is that if the customer has agreed to a price they must find it to be fair, regardless of the fact it's five times more than the last customer paid. We all know that "up to you" really means "you decide how high to go" and not "you decide how little to pay."
JuiceSpike
10-07-02, 05:31
Joe,
That " " you pulled out about deceit could very well apply to us Westerners. I'm in a biz that lying is for some a source of survival. I have a good friend who is a corporate lawyer and getting to know him better over the years has taught me that good lawyers lie through their teeth and within legal boundaries to make a buck, a huge buck. I think the difference for us in Thailand is that sometimes we are a little bit in awe with the beauties and forget that they are in survival mode just like most women in the world.... I mean, who cares if a fat Western woman lies, right?
I have been in realationships here in the US with goodlooking women that lying become second nature for them to get what they wanted...
Are we being hypocritical or just naive about Thai women?
cheers.
Guys, guys...
Are we working on novels here or are we sharing opinions ? Wasn't it Churchill or Clemens who said that "befiety is the soul of wit" ?
I think I gotta back away from this board. I'm absent for a couple days and it takes me an hour to catch up. Too much like homework.
Best wishes to all of you.
Firedick
Packripper
10-07-02, 19:07
Just my two satang, but all this analysis of TG's deceptions, ploys, transapency, et al... it boils down to the type of girl that falangs invariably run into and fall for. They bear no hatred (usually) and have no complex schemes in mind (they most likely do not have the acumen to formulate such plans). It's their nature.
On the other side, it's typical male nature. I think it all boils down to male weakness. A good dose of common sense would prevent most of the bitterness you see from TG preacher-trolls. Remember it's all endorphins, kids. That's all. Just IMO, of course.
:P
-Pack
Let me simply apologize -- I had no idea the language thing would get so out of hand when I responded to Tap's casual question, and while I thank all for the useful advice, I'm sorry to have cluttered up the thread. I agree we should head back on topic.
Skinless, you're perfectly right that I'm not at all interested in just pissing more money away than necessary. I've absolutely no problem with rewarding those who give good service, but outside of that I stick as close as possible to going rates for wherever I happen to be. I tend to stay away from the high-end massage places, for example, mostly because I'm far from convinced that paying for a Superstar looker is going to guarantee me a superstar experience. Not that I'm not a fan of soapy's -- don't get me wrong -- I'm just not interested in getting to the level of western prices. And for those who do want to, I say, please indulge liberally, so you will help support the places so they can also cater to my more frugal efforts :)
And, yes, there's no shortage of fools visiting LOS and marrying working girls. I wish them luck -- they'll need it -- but I'll invest own my immense foolishness in other places, thank you.
Juice -- my point in posting that quote was that I thought it highlighted the difference in emphasis supposedly placed on being truthful by culture, in terms of perceived importance. Of course there's little difference in the level of hypocrisy on either side -- anyone care to take a guess at how many married guys swear up and down in LOS they're single, hoping to get some special level of attention? We'd see that as a minor sin, but when the tables are turned people go bonkers. Let's be honest -- do you really want to barfine a TG and then have a conversation about her hubby or live-in boyfriend before you bonk her? It's like looking at the minimum-wage earning high-school dropout sweating inside the Mickey suit -- reality ruins Disneyland or Oz. Pay no attention to that TG behind the curtain...
just finished reading the book that has been discussed in previous posts. Here is the link for those who missed it.
http://www.freelancerbar.com/Girls/privatedancer.html
depressing stuff. As I have mentionned previously, i have not BF a TG in a couple of years, am leaving for LOS tomorrow, and am planning on visiting all the hot spots. I was planning on the 3F approach before I read the book, and am now convinced it is the only way to go.
For newbies, or those who don't beleive in the 3F, this book is your bible.
1ball.
>For newbies, or those who don't beleive in the 3F, this book is your bible.
And like the bible, it's important not to be too literal. While it's a very good book, filled with insights and important perspectives, particularly for newbies -- it's still not scripture, and there is substantial middle ground between Z's iron-clad 3F wham-bam prescription and becoming the Pete character from Leather's novel, as numerous posters here have attested.
JuiceSpike
10-08-02, 23:44
Joe,
That was funny about the bible thing.... I have read parts of that book and the Pete character seemed to me a little naive or maybe just overhelmed with a Thai girl first encounter. I think we all go through that first trip thinking of Thailand as being paradise and in some ways it is but not real. The only real thing is how cheap it's to get laid there. The chances of finding a "quality" working girl are slim, very slim. I think for many of us the thrill and availability of cheap sex is exciting and worth taking the risk of falling for a Thai working girl. Obviously the 3 Fs is the only way to go but I also think that getting to know a girl that has something to offer can be fun and exciting. Whether you pay or not pay for sex the game of flirting and seducing still there and this is what makes the hobby fun. To me, the collection of experiences makes the whole thing worth the travel all the way there... I think if I were to move and live there the whole sex scene would get boring and old after a while... maybe not....
Pack made a good point: "stop analysing these girls..." Sure, he lives there, he has access to these girls whenever he wants to and has a much clear picture of them than we do.
cheers
adleZ
you are right, it did take me a few hours to read the book, but I downloaded it for free, and I must say even though it was a depressing book, it was very interesting. It was a lot more interesting than reading about your cold and calculating view of life.
1ball
you are right, it did take me a few hours to read the book, but I downloaded it for free, and I must say even though it was a depressing book, it was very interesting. [/i]
The book is a pure fiction, there hardly would be anybody so naive and stupid as Pete. How many times it happened to YOU that really nice lady failed in love with YOU after spending 3 hours in your appartement (in US or Europe)? I guess never. Well, it happened to me 1 time, I fucked the lovable human being for 4 weeks and then said Goodbye to it, it started to be boring... Anyway, any of you guys heading today to Long Gun? Wanna meet there and share some thoughs and Vodka (yes, I appear to be from Russia) shots?
>all come to Thailand NEEDING something they can't get at home.
Point well taken, but I'd substitute want for need. Not everyone comes to Thailand desperate, and desire is part of the punter's currency.
And I know everyone gets excited about the bar girl lying stuff, but why not just accept it for what it is? It's just business. As long as you don't take any of it too seriously and place it in the proper context, it can be fun. If you're going to let yourself get in an emotionally vunerable spot, then you're a fish on the line, and you've got a pretty good chance of being, well, lunch. We don't blame sales people who sell at high volume, even if they do it by exaggerating; we give them praise and awards. Why should the BG scene be any different? I say bravo to the TG who has four farangs on a string -- she's a damn good seller.
I think that what makes Thai girls so dangerous is their attitude. Russian ho, a good one, will have a great sex with you. Period. Ukrainian one will have superb sex with you, will do ANYTHING you want (once I rammed a tiny girl a HUGE dildo into her ass, fucked her into her c*** for about 1 hour, while she was screaming with pain, but then she was PROUD on herself that she endured this and PLEASED A MAN:), Romanian one will do quite a lot of things with perfect attitude, fuck with no condom (very little HIV over there), almost girlfriend like, if she likes you, great experience, and not so foolishly submissive as Ukrainian one...
Arab women will take you to a whole new orgasmic level, but you have to date her for quite some time, you cannot buy an arabic ho, Not a nice native one. Was in Syria for some time and had to fuck Russians for first 2 months.. But after that:)
But Thai women will make you feel like she TRULY loves you, immediately after seeing you, that you are the only one, on the other hand she will not, usually, go into anal or any other things, but will be sweat, smooth, smiling, touching, trying to please, your little sweatheart, a baby. Doesnt matter she likes you or NOT. She will ALWAYS play a "girlfriend in love" role. And this is so different from other hos, from different nations. This is why some foolish people will never consider Russian ho for marriage, but might do this mistake after 48 hours being in Thailand.
They should learn about different hos approaches. Learn about different cultures. Thai girl that really LOVES you, gives money to you, not vice versa :-)
Hello Everybody, is just me or does adleZ have a real problem dealing with the girls in Thailand. I would say he has ever had a real girl friend in his life. Just relationships with ho's and hookers.
I get to Thailand 4 times a year on business, and have a lot of friends that are girls that work in the club and others that work at different business in Thailand. I have a lot of fun with them. Hanging out with a girls in Thailand can be fun, they can show you places around the country that most western do not know about.
If you are up front with the girls right away, and tell them you just want to be friends, nothing more or less. You will get as adleZ calls it, the physical release, but you will have a friend that you can have other fun with. With no emotional attachment from either sides. In most cases, not having the bar girl games too, the sick mother, the dead cow, etc. Just a good friend like in your home country, not thing more.
People like adleZ, that treat the girls in the bars like animals in a Zoo, are the reasons the the girls play the mind games and have the attudies. Yes, the career these girl have choose is not the best, but for some of them, there is nothing else! Treat them like you want to be treated, and you can have a good friend with no emotional attachment and no thoughts of marrage.
I agree with adleZ, not becoming attach to the girl as a boy friend that will lead to a furture wife. But being human with the girls, and being a friend is not a problem! There is no problem, doing the wham, bam, thank you mam thing, but treat them like humans. The girl in the club are not $10 crack ho's in the back alleys in your home country!
Question for adleZ, why did you choose to work and live in Thailand?
Z, that's exactly what I said -- I don't think it's a need, I think it's a want. Sometimes guys are like children, thinking with their dicks, and can't tell the difference, and that's when they're likely to get in trouble. People do get emotional needs fulfilled by going to the movies, but those who take the next step and somehow start thinking those characters are real are whacked.
But I don't see anything wrong with giving TGs credit for what they do, as long as you're clear on what that is. Whether or not they drag out the buffalo story isn't really relevant from my perspective -- it's whether I get the physical and/or personal attention I want in the way I want it or not. Giving someone credit for doing any job and doing it well shouldn't be a problem, and I look at it the same as, say, going to a tailor or barber -- if I like their work, I'll come back and I've got no problem with saying they're good at what they do.
As I've said before, mostly where you and I differ is on this end of things, and on the issue of duration. If I find someone who clicks for me in terms of providing the experience I want (especially given, as we've discussed previously, that not all these bedding experiences are particularly memorable or even truly what we're after -- there are lots of starfish on the beach, and that there are also tons of women who pretty immediately go heavily into wheedle and hustle mode) then I'm gonna keep the option of having them around for a while. If I hook up for a few days or a week or whatever with someone who "works" for me, then I don't need to spend the time looking for that. I've got no problem listening to professions of undying love and stories of hospitalized mothers or a biography that's 75% fiction -- I've always liked bedtime stories :) and I know that the basic intent of bedtime stories is to lull you to sleep.
If you're someone who's emotionally solid, and who can remember that this is all a game, you can play it in a variety of ways. Again, there's absolutely no question that yours is the safest tactic, and if someone can get infatuated then they should absolutely stick solidly by that approach, but for me it's not just about the sex, it's about the total experience. I still know I'm in Disneyland, but there can be other approaches to that experience other than simply getting on different rides all the time.
And I think that's Wildman's last point, and a good one -- "up to you" is the name of the game in terms of psyche. The varied foibles and weaknesses of my own particular psyche don't happen to revolve around sex and relationships.
TonyTony, if you can break thru the atittude of the Thailand Girls. And get them past the marriage and money thing. Don't try not paying them money for services, because that leads back to the marrage thing. You can have some of the best girl friend type sex you can have, in a short amount of time.
The attitude probelm with some of the Thai Girls are the attitudes that the western guys give them like adleZ or the stories that they get from guys. They are just returning what they are getting. And they are better at it, because they hear a different stories everyday from customers and there girl friends.
For Russian Girls and the other eastern european countries, I disagree with that. A lot of them are looking for a ticket out too. As a American in a eastern european country, I have been down the same road as in Thailand with the girls.
Remember, in most third world country, as a western guy going into bars, clubs or areas that have the girls working in, you are a BIG WALKING GOLDEN TICKET for the girl to get out of the world that they are in. Get the girl past this, that you are not this ticket, you are just a friend, you will have a great time!
I agree with joe_zop on the guys that are children. Alot of these guys are the ones in there 40's and 50's (going thru the Mid-Life thing) coming to Asia, for the fantasy of playing with the girls that are youger than their kids. They get to Thailand and fall in love over night and go right down the road of being stupid. And start throwing everything they had in life away.
Originally posted by jimhart69
Get the girl past this, that you are not this ticket, you are just a friend, you will have a great time!
I have to agree with this, being a friend means getting much more from the girl, opposite to using 3Fs approach, and I am not speaking only about fuck-for-free thing. She is, then, not behaving *like* a girlfriend, she is becoming sort of one, for a short-period of time. And this results in MUCH better sex and other experience. And if you dont really fool her, dont tell her it will last forever (she wouldnt want go to Russia anyway, and I wouldnt want her to..), nobody is hurt at the end, and she doesnt try to fool you. Just be nice. 3Fs is NOT being nice.
btw, I can imagine that an american in EE country must feel very much a walking ATM as well, so this is not valid only for Thailand. Guess I am lucky I am not from US, nobody wants THAT MUCH money from me:)
What a fucking great world we live in! So much choice! And what a great thing to be a MAN! :-))
TontTony, I agree totally!
jimhart69,
I just have to come to "Z's" defense, not like he needs it,but, he has never said anything about abusing the girls, or treating them badly. Just in and out. I would guess that half the time the girl is just as happy to get things over with and move on.
Joezop,
Your point is well taken. Almost a modified 3f approach. Just a few more of the middle f's. :)
FD
Cebu Local
10-10-02, 22:35
guys
actually i think Z is down in Malaysia.the malaysian girls are real pros,give you great sex then out of there,no emotional mind games,sorry I know the topic is TG s but while researching KL,for my trip there this weekend,found out Z is going to be in the same hotel at about the same time,personally my 3f is find,fuck and depending on the girl forget or file away for future reference to become friend,not wife or girlfriend just friend no emotions,just being a nice to somebody friendly for friendly future fucks,my 3 fs regards
Hy folks, after all ýou wrote about TG's you should understand them wish to keep close to your purse after they don't have much more chances to change (?) their lives. Most of them had left school after 6 years because it's not for free and parents won't spend the money on a girls education.
I've been travelling to Thailand several times for the last 5 years and I've had a lot up's and downs.
I like the GFE even it's more expensive because I've had good times with the girls. And if one night costs you ~60$ including girl and hotel, what you want? So why not have a companion during your stay and have her getting a little bite of your cake?
Firedick, I did not say adleZ was abusing them, just mistreating them. I am not coming to the defense of the girls, I am coming to the defense of us that treat the girls with respect. So our time spend with the girls are fun and enjoyable, not all the head games and attitudes you can get from the girls that get play by us western all the time.
Most of the Thai girls with the big attitudes can tell you story about guys like adleZ, that just hand out attitude to them all the time, causing them to return the favor to us the customer. This will ever change, attitude that is, but I beleive if we would treat the girls with more human respect, just maybe they will return it. I have experence it, by respect the girl as a person, it is return 10 fold. And I am not talking about open my wallet, just treating them with respect and telling them up front what I am here for, the fun. It works!
In my adult life, I live in Korea for 10 years and now in the past ten years I travel back to asia 4 times a year for 4 to 6 weeks at a time. Going to Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, China, Hong Kong, Philippines, Vietnam, and Thailand. You see the same thing in all these countries, girls that get attitudes, because the western guys are giving the girls attitudes. In my early years in Asia, I was alot like adleZ, kiss and forget, make the stories and give the girl attitude. It does not work. Being human with the girls, the service is better and at the end both the girl and you feel better. Plus, you and the girl will have a lot more fun! Why go down other road!
Of all the countries I go too, the people in Thailand are the most friendly and open. The Thai girls can be alot of fun, if you give them a chance. AdleZ should try it, it may be a eye opener to him, maybe he will see what he is missing!
Hey, that's exactly what I mean - have a girlfriend for a holiday without any promises you might not keep.
Frog, in most of the Asia countries, school is paid by the parents. It is not paid by the goverment. School is not a giving as in the west with the Asian. You must earn it.
Originally posted by TonyTony
I Romanian one will do quite a lot of things with perfect attitude, fuck with no condom (very little HIV over there)
Very little AIDS in Romania? You are out of your mind.
Jimhart69,
Preach'n to the choir partner. I, too, prefer the softer approach, but only after I find a girl a cut above. Usually' it's the 3f's, until I'm impressed. But I would bet that most of us have had a "date from hell" with enough of these girls to understand Z's position.
FD
Originally posted by Dickhead
Very little AIDS in Romania? You are out of your mind.
No, I'm pretty much sane. Look at
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ro.html
Fucking 16-year old in Romania is definitely safer than crossing the road in NYC. HIV rate being 1000x lower than in Thailand. I fucked few human beings in Romania without condom and my HIV tests are negative. Would NEVER do this in Thailand or US.
Originally posted by adleZ
TonyTony:
I think your problem is that you are worried about how the Thai hooker feels about you... how you perform...
You know, from a certain point of view, you are right. I *do* care about her getting an orgasm. I do care about her having a good time. Because *I* do get an orgasm when she gets it. Most of the time. My orgasm is being dependant on "fucking her well":)
Only when I am completely drunk, I fuck her like an animal, enjoy just pure in-out thing, dont care about any other feelings than being "brute", and want to come ASAP. But this is rare:)
I think you have your 3Fs approach so extreme because you prefer the latter form of sex, nothing bad with that, but I prefer the first one, her approach of being girlfriend like, soft kisses, fucking several times a night, not just quick shot, etc. For your preference, 3Fs is just fine.. For me, being a friend is better. With this approach, repeating the sex means it is even better. And it saves, usually, some money too.
For 3Fs, you always have to pay. When you are a friend, and she shares the same view, you get a VERY different experience. And for free.
I am NOT looking here for GFs substitution, the best sex ever I had was, of course, with a real GFs, European ones, they do ANYTHING if they love you and trust you, ANYTHING, and this is not a short-term process, takes months.. Still, THai ho can be good enough match if treated properly!
TonyTony, I agree again with you! The time, most people spent with the Thai Girls from the clubs, etc. are for enjoyment. If the girl does not feel comfortable with you as a customer, the time spent with the girl will not be enjoyable.
AdleZ, does not understand this, it is a two way street, if you treat the girls with respect, she will treat you with respect, i.e. a better time for you. AdleZ just see his time spent with the girls as a phyiscal release. I could save some money and time for adleZ, why take the girls from the clubs back to a room, just hang out in the HJ/BJ clubs it is cheaper and faster for the phyiscal release.
AdleZ, does not understand that you can be friends with the girls without the comment of money, and the big word of a furture MARRIAGE. These girls can be fun as a friend that you would have in your home country, with the extra's, without comment. But because he beleive so much in the 3f's and just gives the girl all this attitude, that all he gets back! I would bet that adleZ came and lives in Thailand for the sex scene, because his attitude to the Thai Girls was the same to the girls in his home country, causing him to ever get sex! AdleZ should try it without the 3f's and see it from the other side. Just maybe, he would get more enjoyment from the time spent with the girls. I beleive he can not trust himself, if he opening up, he may fall into the Thai Bargirl Trap!
I have two girls that work in Nana right now, that I have been good friends with for two plus years. We see each other when I am in Bangkok. Send each other e-mail once or twice a month, exchange Birthday and Christmas presents, just good friends, nothing more. The only time I give them money, is for their Bar fines and if we spent a night together. I have bar fine this girls many times, and we have went out and party all night in Bangkok, and beleive or not, these girls have taking their turn in paying for the drinks and food, just like any friends. We are friends just like any friendship, knowing that there is no thoughts of marriage in the furture, just being friends to have a good time. It is more of a enjoyable time, for all that are involve. And like TonyTony said it is cheaper in the end!
jimhart69,
Well said...
...(prog)
Let's keep in mind that Z's poison of choice is generally the massage places, and that represents a specific kind of action and scene. Personally, I'm not as fond of those as other options, though I do frequent them on occasion, but there's no doubt that can be a great scene. Partly I don't like them as much because there's no real option on the girl's side in terms of it being a mutual choice to hook up, but it's a minor cavil as I understand that the workers have signed on to that scenario.
But that does decidedly represent a different kind of overall interaction, range of contact, etc. It works for Z, and he's found the venue and range of options he prefers, and bravo to him for that.
My sense, though, is that regardless of whether he's treating TGs well or badly (and I personally don't believe he's mistreating anyone, as there's never been anything in his posts to so indicate) his attitude has to come through. Classifying sex workers as similar to zoo animals, as sperm buckets, as uninteresting, lowlife creatures not worth interacting with other than to drop a load into, etc., is something that gets conveyed on some level or another, and I simply don't see how that can be a good thing.
This has nothing to do with romance, or getting mushy -- it's simply recognizing that people react to signals given off about them. And the particular kinds of reactions someone is going to have based on the fact that they're viewed as a sub-human disposable piece of meat -- even if there are no overt actions treating them as such -- are not ones likely to enhance the experience I want.
joe_zop,
Two thumbs up! I agree totally. The only thing that bother me, is people like adleZ, which alot of them are not as extreme as adleZ, wrecking it for the rest of us. Who are out to have some fun with girls, not a lot of attitude. The girls learn to have attitude, because they use it as defense to protect themselves from people like adleZ.
The girls are really out to have some fun too, if it is possible! Yes the bottom line is, the girls are working to get money, but we all try to have some fun at work! So why not! Why shouldn't us the custromer and the girls who are working not enjoy things as much as possible. Like the song; Don't worry, be Happy! ---------Lets all be Happy!!!
Jim and Joe,
The only thing wrong with your approach, for me, is the rarity in finding a lady whom I've BF'd that I'd want to spend more than a few hours with. Yes, I've done it, and, as you say Jim, it can be a blast. Maybe, speaking for myself only here, not going beyond the 3 F's is simply a matter of time constraint. Only having a finite amount of time in the LOS, I want to cram the most possible into it.
Also Jim, I don't think the guys with the 3 F approach "wreck it for you". Just the opposite. Without the negative experiences, how would the girls know that you are treating them better ? That you are more fun to be with ?
FD
Dickhead and TonyTony:
this forum is about Thailand and not Romania, and definitely not about HIV/AIDS.
This being said, believing that HIV prevalence and therefore risk of contamination can be evaluated from the CIA factbook is a nonsense.
Romania is one of the poorest countries in the world. Who could believe any statistic about public health emanating from local authorities ? And has the CIA (or the WHO, or anybody) bothered to run the random test campaign that would be necessary to assess infection ?
Having taken a risk and being tested negative tells nothing about the relative risk there may have been. You might try to cross the street in NYC and still manage to get to the other side unharmed. But the traffic was there all the time nonetheless...
Seriously, by all credible accounts, Thailand is a way safer place as far as public health is concerned. And this is true for most infectious diseases, with the possible exception of malaria.
FD -- I don't disagree, and my main point is that there's nothing at all wrong with the 3F approach if that is what works for you, but there's no need to denigrate the TGs involved in the equation in doing so. I don't feel people using the 3F approach at all harm my fun, but I think those with evident contempt for sex workers and a sense of superiority do. Needing to prove to someone who's had negative experiences that you're not thinking of her as someone who scrabbles like a monkey for twenty bucks isn't exactly enhancing the experience in my book.
I hardly go long-term (or even long time) with every TG I barfine; far, far from it. I leep it in mind as an option in terms of looking not only for someone who I think's going to be a hot boff but who might make an interesting companion for a while, but I'd say there's a decidedly lower than a one in ten ratio of actually hooking up to any extent more than a night. And I'm not someone who just comes in and picks after ten minutes, generally.
I hear what you're saying about the dearth of suitable girls, and this is no doubt one of the things that falls into the category of individual differences, but to be honest, I've rarely found anyone in my entire life who I couldn't learn from or enjoy if I spend more time. That kind of stuff can happen on all levels, from simply wanting to be around to see what the hell that crazy stuff in someone's head is, to seeing if there's even anything at all going on, to going with the fact that there's really no one home, to just being with someone who treats you nicely and with attention. Heck, even I find it fun to watch someone trying to play me. Since I'm a self-centered sort, the world's always more about me and my reactions to whomever I'm with in any event :)
Fireidck,
You are probaby right! On this point, that the guys that use the 3f's approach, help the people like me that use the friendly approach. I agree, that you can not do this with every girl, but with them you do the 3f's, but you can do it with respect.
I total agree with Joe, why go into a club and in 10 minutes, find girl to pound and treat poorly, and throw her out like a broken toy. By far, I don't have long term relationships with every girl I bar fine. Just the oppsite, but I treat every girl as a human and with respect, not a zoo animal. If you are with a girl in a club and you do not meet on some kind level, why go to the hotel or room with her. Just more on to the next girl that you may have something in common with. It is not like there is a limit number of girls working in the clubs in Thailand.
Like Joe said, you can learn something new from everybody you meet in life. Open your mind, and see what you don't know in life! Most of these girls are seeing life from a completely oppsite side from us in the west. They live in a 3rd world country, 90% of them poor, most of them have not been to more than a few years in school, and have ever seen another country outside of Thailand. Treat them with respect and you will get the same back! They are not animals in a cage, toys or anything else negtive. Getting to know a TG, does not mean you are going to marry her and have support her the rest of her life. It means you are possible making a friend, just like any other friend in life. Some you want to keep and others were good to know for a while. Have some fun with them!
3F is the name of the game in the Land Of Smiles (vertical smiles), and 3F is the name of the game everywhere else on earth.
True pussy lovers can't afford to waste their time on a single pussy for too long: there's always a potential new pussy out there waiting for us.
In any case, 3F does not mean treating the chicks badly, it means taking the chicks through the 3 phases of the 3F process accurately and with no hesitation. 3F is compatible with treating the chicks well, and in fact by being sweet to them we'll usually get a better response and a greater sexual experience as the chicks will be more ready to please. The 3F philosophy is very flexible and it comprises from a fast and emotionless ST to a few days long experience, but the end is always the same: the 3rd F.
Only by applying the 3rd and final F can we win the game.
would someone be able to indicate a list of countries that Thai nationals can visit without a visa?
The idea is to explore the feasibility of taking a TG for a weekend trip to one of Thailand's neighbouring countries.
Cebu Local
10-12-02, 10:40
visa free places to bring your TG,are the following based on actual experience malaysia,singapore,indonesia,brunei,philippines.hong kong,remember though without adequate proof of funds to spend,she might have problems in singapore,malaysia and hong kong,i am pretty sure of these countries since i work in the travel trade and have brought a TG to malaysia and singapore before,regards
Cebu Local
10-12-02, 10:46
forgot to add vietnam,laos,cambodia,but why would you bring a TG to those places regards
cebu local;
thanks for the info.
As to the why bringing a TG to a foreign country in which local talent is plentiful, well it is part of the GFE. You bring your own pillow. Without the TG, you are an evil sex tourist. With her, you are a worldly regional expat.
Besides, when you have spent the time and effort to train one particular TG to perform optimally to your taste, why take a chance and venture in unchartered waters ?
Admittedly there is the excitement of discovery, but on a short break nothing beats the relaxing experience of traveling with your own private concubine.
Originally posted by Gladiator
In any case, 3F does not mean treating the chicks badly, it means taking the chicks through the 3 phases of the 3F process accurately and with no hesitation. 3F is compatible with treating the chicks well, and in fact by being sweet to them we'll usually get a better response and a greater sexual experience as the chicks will be more ready to please. The 3F philosophy is very flexible and it comprises from a fast and emotionless ST to a few days long experience, but the end is always the same: the 3rd F.
Only by applying the 3rd and final F can we win the game. [/i]
This is very true! This is the correct way to use the 3F, I do this. AdleZ way of using the 3F is the complete oppsite of this, that is the point! Using the 3F or any other way that you have to spent time with the TG will work, but treat them with respect and they will return it. You will have a better sexual experience in the end and enjoy your time more! And yes, you do not win the game until you apply the final F, but do it with kindless and respect, and the girl will look at you in a better light!
But, it is key to put closure (Final F) to ST, LT, or anything else you would have with TG. This could be by saying lets be friends with zero comments, just like any friend you would have in life or complete closure to any relationship, but not throw them out like a broken toy, do it with respect.
This whole thing started about guys coming to Thailand and throwing there whole life away, after a week affair with a TG. Alot of these guys are middle age, going thru a Mid-life crises, that get a TG that is 10, 20, 30 years youger than them. Better looking, better in bed, etc. than there girl friends/wifes/ex-wifes in their home country. And they fall for the old story of the lost puppie. I can take care of this girl and make her life better.
Mean while, most them do not know what they are getting into. Alot of middle age guys coming to the Thailand, fall in love in seconds, you can see in there eyes and the girls see this too! In alot of the clubs, there are the TG that specialist in getting every bit of $$$ they can get from these guys. Alot of them are playing 2, 3, 4 plus guys at a time, ever planning to marry them, just trying to get every $$$, they can! Getting a weekly pay check from a guy in another country by western union. I have hear of 2 girls that have 4 different guys sent them up to $1000.00 US a month, mean while they are living with there Thai boy friend.
The other one that you can see is these guys fall for, and alot more than you think, is the sick mother, the dead cow, the house that fell in, etc. story. And giving the girls 10's of thousand of Baht for nothing!
We have all seen these guys in the clubs at night, and these guys need to use the 3F. They should give each single male a book, right way as they leave the airport, the right way to use the 3F. Because when they get in the adult fantasy lands in Thailand, they forget everything they know in life. And get hightly stupid!
> Why waste your time with something that isnt going to go anywhere?
Because it's your time to waste, if you so choose. It's not all about efficiency; it's also about experience. Why the heck is there some sort of arbitrary expiration date attached to the process? TGs are not cartons of milk. I think Gladiator's perspective is dead on -- anything from a quick bang to a few days, and the real key is keeping your emotional sanity and not losing your head. Your definition of a "relationship" as staying with someone for more than two hours is an extreme and hyperbolic perspective.
> Other emotional cripples in here desire a "relationship" with feelings.
Again, this is something you misread -- the point isn't whether or not the TG has feelings for you, any more than it is whether or not she has orgasms. The point is whether you're treated as if she does -- you're hiring an actress either way.
And there's plenty of room for debate over who's the emotional cripple here. Perhaps your extremism comes exactly from the fact that you live in LOS, and so it's more dangerous and problematic to get entangled, since it can more easily intrude into your real life. (And which also means, since your point is that you know more because you live there, that you're making pronouncements about a situation, with guys coming over for short periods, that you're not actually a part of.) Ahead of me is always the prospect of jumping on a plane at some point, leaving it all behind and returning to my real life, which can be the ultimate clean and simple way of ending any entanglements.
Cebu Local
10-13-02, 00:18
guys
just saw the bombings in the bali nightclub that killed 54 people and injured 100,mostly americans,aussies,brits and europeans.makes one think that despite all our comments on LOS,we are lucky that the LOS has buddhism as a religeon and the people are mostly peaceful with virtually no terrorist attacks,read some indonesian posts on how cheap sex is there,same reason i also dont go to cambodia,saving 10-20$ on pussy is not worth dying for.FYI my place is 98% catholic christian and loves everything western.the philippines celebrates july 4 as a public holiday,philippine american friendship day,that said back to thailand,IMHO,for all their problems TG s are better then indonesians,cambodians in general and before i get bashed by pro cambodia people or accussed of being anti moslem,that based on my actual experience i have had the best experiences with thais and filipinas,compared to experiences with malays,indonesians and cambodians.regards
Jimhart69,
I'm hoping that your comments were meant for the board and not directed at me, because I would be offended if you were implying that I disrespect the girls or treat them like "animals in a cage". Gladiator beat me to the point that the 3 F's is not unto itself abusive. Yes, I tend to "butterfly", but, to extend the metaphor, I treat my flower of the evening well.
FD
Firedick,
No, the comments were not meant for you a all. They were for the board in general and adleZ. AdleZ and many other people treat the girls like animals. You and me are on the same page, when it comes to the 3F's, treat them well and end the relationship with respect, if it is for 2 hours or 2 days, it does not matter.
I am and most of us are butterflies, when it comes to the TG. Why only have one flower, when you can have dozens! Being a butterfly does not mean you have to treat the girls poorly, but alot of guys beleive you should treat them bad, because they Ho's and hookers. At the end of the day, they are no different than the rest of us, they job and the try to do the best job they can. As with any type of service job you can have great customer and some very big assholes! Why not be a good customer!
Your paragraph I quote on the 3Fs hit it on the head, I agree with you totally!
Jim
JuiceSpike
10-13-02, 17:27
Butterflies....
I personally don't buy into this concept especially coming from a hooker.... C'mon guys, the concept of butterflies is used by TGs to so they can have you for themselves so you don't spend money on other girls.... To me this concept is a bit self-rightgous coming from a hooker... after all they fuck hundreds of guys.... I always tell them that I'm a big butterfly if they bring this thing up and almost always this shuts them up....
.... next.....
cheers.
I agree with you, Juice, and that's actually why I love the term and concept -- it's a brilliant personal marketing tool by TGs. At it's core it's no different than any corporate approach that tries to get you to wear a logo or uses scare tactics to convince you you'll get less value or service elsewhere. Every business wants returning customers both for the steady income and because you have to spend less time and money keeping them than attracting them.
So I admire the approach -- not that I have to buy into it! I always say I'm not a butterfly, I'm a bumblebee, cause I've got a stinger and I'm out to gather honey...
The term "Butterfly" is a business term for the girls in all the Asian countries, working clubs, etc. Joe is correct on the corporate concept, it is just like any corporate term for a career field. This is calling a guy a wild card, coyette, or any other business term that a person is playing the field for more than one side.
These girls like to have the same person come back to them all the time, because of the income and the knowledge of what the person does. I remember the first time I was going to Asia on business and my grandfather told me not to be a butterfly. I look at him, and said a butterfly? He told me about being in SE Asia after WWII and being call a butterfly from the girls in the late 40's. This is just a old business term for there career.
The only thing I have seen in Thailand that is different from most Asia countries, is the TG get embarrass, if their customer is playing with other girls, especially if they work in the same club! Most countries, you get attach with the term, because you are a playboy, it is not positive or negtive. But in Thailand, if the word gets out, sometimes it can be a big negtive!
Fun thing to talk to the girls about is the term "butterfly", if they call you a butterfly. I have ask them "aren't you a butterfly too". And you will hear all kinds of answer.
Jim,
Quote: "...the only thing I have seen in Thailand that is different from most Asia[n] countries, is the TG get embarrass, if their customer is playing with other girls, especially if they work in the same club!..."
You are so right. The thought of “losing face” is a big deal in this country. I saw the negativity of being a butterfly first-hand. My buddy barfined a girl from a bar where he had just been to the night before with another girl. Sure, this girl let him barfine her but apparently the session went pretty badly. I talked to her about it the next day. She said she didn't like butterflies (as she was telling me this another Farang had just paid her barfine). To these girls it seems that going out and fucking a multitude of men is just doing their job. I've tried to understand the differences but came to the realization that unless I am Thai, and can forget all Western thought processes, I'll never get it. So I don’t worry about it. If I butterfly I never take a girl somewhere where I might want to get another girl. I do this for two reasons: (1) Out of respect for the girl. (2) Less aggrevation...
In the PI it’s a lot easier. A butterfly is not such a big deal as it is in Thailand. If I walk into a bar in the PI, and I see multiple possibilities, I make it a point to barfine two girls the first time. By doing this I made it known I’m a butterfly but I’m willing to spread the joy to the rest of the girls in the bar. I will have no problems barfining multiple girls from there from then on
...(prog)
Interesting to know that use of butterfly's that old, Jim, and in thinking about it, I'm betting it's from a still older source. I took a look in my slang dictionary for the term, and while it's there, it's not in the same context (it's also used as a term for a passive homosexual and for a woman's vulva.) But I'd be willing to bet strongly without really going much further in researching it that it has its origins as a reference around "Madam Butterfly" where you've got a sailor and a Japanese geisha. If I recall the story correctly, the sailor pursues the geisha, who he refers to as a butterfly, "captures" her as a temporary wife, leaves on a voyage and is gone for a couple of years, and returns with a wife, the latter of whom wants (yeah, right!) the child he's had with Butterfly. The geisha, heartbroken, commits hari kari.
I think the story was originally done in the 1800's after the opening of Japan to the west, and Puccini turned it into his famous opera a bit later, though I've no idea when the term, as it's used now, would have come about. WWII might really be about the right time, actually, as that would be the first time there was really that much interaction between foreigners and asians in a large-scale way and a context like this.
Given that part of the character of the sailor is that he's deceitful, telling Butterfly he's going to return for her when he has no intention of doing so, that would match up with the major sentiment around the term. The characters have been switched, of course, but that could just be a shorthand reference to the story of the deceived geisha.
JuiceSpike
10-14-02, 02:11
Joe,
Interesting background story about "butterflies...."
I just can't deal with this "butterfly" concept at all. I have had conversation with bar girls and they assume that the guy will go back to the bar just for them yet if another guy bar fines them is "no problem..." I have tested this concept by bar fining several girls from the same bar and nothing bad happen, in fact, I was playful about it and then the girls were making recommendations as to whom I should take.... Sure, they will pout to no end but hey, who's paying? By no means if you bar fine another girl rub off on the other girl... this could be trouble...
One thing these TGs should know is that Westerners are their livehood and putting pressure on a guy to bar fine the same girl makes no sense to me. Prostitution in Thailand is a huge economic gain for the country, not just the beach and temples tourists...
The save face thing is true but it is also used to manipulate the situation. The reality is that working girls have no social status in Thailand, worse than being low status. The only way to save face for them with their families and friends is to make a lot of money or find a sucker that will marry them and/or support them...
Unless they girl wants to give free sex I will be butterfly as I please.... they can fuck whomever they want I will fuck whomever I want. Fair.
cheers.
I liked the linking of the term butterfly to the story "Madam Butterfly". That certainly romanticizes it. I suspect that the term came about essentially because the man, like the butterfly, simply floats from flower to flower sampling the necter from each.
I agree, November, since that's certainly how it's used, but the similarities with the Madam Butterfly story -- unfaithful man, asian woman who is destroyed by betrayal -- seem to me to be too close to ignore. Not to mention that the farang is at fault and the poor girl is the victim -- so the romance and tragedy all belongs to the asian side. And of course it's a particularly resonant term in Thailand, where you can't go anywhere without seeing a butterfly farm. It's brilliant, I think, as it works on so many levels.
Juice, I completely agree with you on the absurdity of the whole thing, and it's generally something you can make use of by clearly labeling yourself, but it's also true that not all situations end up being quite so playful and cozy -- TGs can be jealous and possessive as well, and if they're cranked up on ya ba you never know what's going to happen. Skinless, for one, has relayed his story of a girl going whacko over being thrown over, so it's always good to stay on the safe side. Pouting's fine; it's when it goes beyond that, and conveying that you're a 3F person certainly helps minimize exposure. In Bangkok there are certainly enough places that you can simply avoid the issue totally unless you live there if you so choose.
I don't think an argument about the overall economic climate for LOS is likely to make much of an impression as a concept when you're talking about people of low social status trying to make as much money as they personally can. It's just gonna be "you pay bar fine" and "up to you" :) But if you think about it, getting guys obsessed with one girl, and continuing to come back to her over and over does make good economic sense both from the perspective of the bar and the country, not to mention the girl -- the sucker potential is way higher in that equation.
Everybody, I beleive that adleZ will never understand, there is a other side to 3Fs. So since, he is a big horse stud, he should be out in a stall in the barn and lock up until a mare needs some breding. Remember, you only would to bred a prize stallion, and is adleZ a prize Stallion? I think he is not a horse, he is more like a dog, that will hump anything, to included the pasting leg, the way it sounds!
That enough picking on adleZ, it is a lost cause, trying to show him the other side of the 3Fs. He is what he is and he will enjoy the TG from his views, and is that wrong? Probably not, as along as it does not hurt it for the rest of us!
To Z.elda: with your approach, isnt it better and cheaper just to masturbate? The "sperm unloading process" of masturbation is quite similar to what "BGs wastebasket" can offer to somebody with no attachements to these human beings, and if you do not need anything more.. :)
I guess if we start treating all the prostitutes without any degree of "special encouragement", we'll end up paying higher prices, getting the same old mundane service we always get, little chance of a discount.
Worse still, heaven forbid they start emulating U.S. style operations. Then you'd have to deal with imposing pimps, drug-crazed hookers, stealing, alot more VD, etc..
If you want to treat them like "cattle" or "horses", go ahead, but
the fact is, regardless of how the local men treat them, we are foreigners, there's no disguising that. If the prices go up, and we don't negotiate for special services for our higher prices, we find ourselves paying more for less.
If sweet-talking her will lower the price, go for it. Don't let the rich visitors dictate how the rest of us pay or treat our service staff.
Jimhart69,
I'm glad to hear that we are on the same page.
Joezop,
I think you may be giving the girls a little too much credit. I doubt you could find one that has seen a Puccini play, or be familiar with the story. I think it's more like November stated, with the very observable behavior of the "flower to flower" concept. The P.I. girls have a new term for it: "Helicopter". Butterfly without the heart.
Hey Prog
FD
All,
Honestly, how much enjoyment can a guy really have if he treats these girls like shit? I don't know but it just seems a little fun play beforehand only enhances the physical pleasure we hope to get from our sessions (whether its a ST or LT event). To paraphrase what TT said: Wouldn't it be cheaper just to masterbate if all you care about is getting the "little general to spit".
FD,
3 weeks and counting... I'll see if Melanie is back from the province.
...(prog)
Ahhhh.....Melanie....
She did give a great hummer !
Dick Johnson
10-15-02, 09:26
It's good to see AdleZ still trumpeting his beliefs. Gotta give him credit for that.
But have you guys seen them stud horse's dicks? They're as big as your arms. I don't think *****'s quite there yet unless he got a transplant like in a Hong Kong flick I saw ;D
By the way, from all of your posts, *****, I'm pretty sure you're a 2 minute man. 2 minute stud?
Maybe my Thai slang is alittle rusty, but I thought "butterfly" referred to a guy hooking up with several hookers, usually said by a hooker who might be a tad jealous of the other girls getting your money.
It has nothing to do with the Oxford dictionary.
Don't quite remember the plot of Madame Butterfly, but I don't think it's the exact same reference.
FYI : Don't think you can do the same by calling a bar girl a butterfly, it only applies to the customer, as the girl is "working".
Is adeleZ/***** for real. Sounds like a ladyboy to me. Correct me if I am wrong, but he/she sure has a problems with TGs.
I think his problems starts with his childhood upbringing and experience. I feel sad for him.
TGs are one of the best in the world, if u treat them with respect.
That's all for this traveller.
Basically it all boils down to service.
If you're like Adlez, you're getting nothing special, nothing to remember, but I can bet you're still paying "farang" prices.
If you're like me, you're going to get service, if it's ST/LT/whatever else, you're going to get that service. If someone looks at you, sees a foreigner, and you pay a foreigner price, the increase in price should be an increase in service.
As far as certain "heathen" comments (misspelled I might add),
I'm sure these people are just as warmly talked about when they're out of earshot too.
For anyone who is unsure of the situation, please don't assume that any person's "way" is correct. It is always best to develop a favorable relationship, especially in business. You don't go into the gas station and give the clerk the "cold shoulder", and you probably don't ignore a bank teller if she asks you about the weather, so atleast be cordial with the bar girls. If ST is all you want, then go with ST, but be polite, and give the girls a reason to not say "mama sick, cannot go with you" next time.
Well, atleast you didn't misspell "heathen" that time.
So you are respectful and polite to their faces, and call them names when they're not around?
You seem to be giving off the "can't stand to be with a TG for more than 15 minutes" vibe, or atleast that's what we can glean from your attitude in posts (whether fake or not).
If it really doesn't matter to you, and you want it over with so damn quick, get a silicone pussy, and don't pay the locals?
Sorry I don't normally react this strongly, but just had to put in afew of my cents.
I'm just trying to determine what it is you don't like about them?
If it's prostitution, that'd be hypocritical, so it must be the culture, or perhaps you can explain?
duniawala,
AdleZ just does not get it! I agree with you that he had some kind of problem with females in childhood and it now shows in the way he thinks he should treat girls. As I have said before, adleZ came to Thailand, because he could not have any relationships with the girls in his home country. This is because he beleive a girl is a deposit box for this sperm and has no other reason in life for him.
I beleive he had two girl friends in his life before he came to Thailand, there names are Righty and Lefty. The only reason he can be with girls in Thailand, is he can pay for it! After living in Thailand for 4 years, I would beleive the rest of us would have non-working girls as a girl friend. And would be having a normal life, with a normal TG. But he can not do or have this, because he treats all girls as a deposit box and not as human with respect.
Instead of golfing, he should find a good doctor, to help him work out his problems. If the TG are so bad, why is he on this forum all the time writing about them! If I was feeling this way about them, I would be doing something else, beside reading and writing on this forum! AdleZ get a life!
JuiceSpike
10-16-02, 14:49
Jimhart69,
I think what Adlez is saying is that he does not believe in putting Thai hookers on a pedestal and fall over heels for their nice little bodies... I think he is right. Too many guys (including myself on my first trip to Thailand) get a little out of control because upon arriving there and having so many choices and being so easy to fuck at will one can lose pespective on the whole thing.
After being in Thailand 4 years Adlez has decided to have his own approach that keeps him sane and out of trouble. The #1 problem with Thai hookers to me is that they don't seem like hookers because of their demeanor and beautiful smiles but they are. They fuck to make money and not to be romantic although some can be romantic as part of their service but is part of their. Their job is: sex for money.
As far as Adlez not having a normal relationship with a "normal" Thai woman, maybe he chooses not to have one but besides that, we are here talking about transactions with hookers not about relationships with hookers. But if that is what you are looking for, a meaningful relationship with a hooker, then you are in for the ride of your life. Sure they have have a heart but first they are hookers....
I don't see anything wrong with the 3 Fs is just how you approach and Adlez has an approach that makes sense to him. I beleive he treats these women just fine and they probably appreciate him as a customer since he makes their jobs quick and easy.
cheers.
Firedick, Chris -- oh, heavens, I wasn't at all implying that any TGs or anyone at all used the term "Butterfly" with any knowledge of Puccini or Madam Butterfly; I was just guessing that might be the beginning reference point of the term, that's all, and that it has gradually also become imbued with other pictures, since it's such a rich metaphor. I'd be amazed if most even know what a western opera is. Helicopter is an obvious play off the butterfly term with the added garnishes of a reference to the military and to a machine without a heart, which makes perfect sense in PI.
All -- as far as Z goes, he's pretty straight-forward with his beliefs and approach, and it works for what he wants, so no big deal. My only issues with him are that a) he absolutely insists that his approach is the only possible one that matters or makes any sense and that anyone who thinks differently is a fool, regardless of whether their own approach has worked successfully for them, b) he's pretty repetitive in his posts, though he's been varying a bit more lately, and c) whether he does so in real life or not, in his language and terminology he unnecessarily denigrates sex workers.
Z, if you don't want to hang out with them, cool. Me, I've hung out with sex workers (among myriad other folks) in the US and elsewhere, so why would I need to change my ways in LOS to suit your particular social beliefs? Interesting people are interesting people, and I've spent more than enough time with extremely boring manufacturing reps, various white-collar professionals who think their job is the only important thing in the universe, and social climbing trust babies. Give me a hooker with stories to tell anytime!
Juicespike,
You are correct on the guys on there first trip to the Adult Fantasy Land of Thailand, alot of them can separate real life from the fantasy life. Alot of them have not had so many chooses, and couldn't be with so many different pretty girls in there life before. Because of the low costs of the services, it does not feel to them that the girls are hookers. Plus, how many 40 thru 60 year old guys, have so many girls 18 to 25, chasing them to have sex with them in there home countries.
I do agree with adleZ, on too many guys fall in love over night with the TG and want to give up everything in the life for a TG working in a club as hooker. This is stupid! Everybody should use the 3F's, especially the final "F", finish. But there is no reason to treat the girls as a animal, as adleZ admits he does. You can have fun with TG for 2 hours or 2 days, have all the sex you want and other fun too! There is no reason to open your heart to them, but having some fun with them and treat them with respect will not heard anything.
The 3 F's are great, if there use right, with respect for both parties. I use them everytime I am in Thailand or any other Asia country. If I didn't, I would have 75 plus wifes or girl friend, on the pay roll this year alone!
I think we all pick on adleZ, because he only see the TG from one way and that will ever change, as deposit boxes. He is trying to get all of us to see this in the same way as him all the time. I for one, will ever see it in his way. To each there own!
We are ALL getting a little repetitive here. Juice and Joe are on the money (in my opinion). Z is extreme in my book, but I admire him for his sticking to his guns and using an approach that works for him.
I find it very self righteous for any of us, Z, JH69 or me to stress that their approach is the only one that makes sense.
As long as we are not hurting anyone else, whatever works for you. Newbies will continue to fall into the trap. The smart ones will learn from it. The dumb ones will send money. But don't we have room here for different opinions ?
I will be in BKK for a fews days around Dec.10th, then down to Phuket. Anyone want to grab a beer and chase a few "ladies" ?
FD
everytime i go, i feel like it is my 1st trip
bling bling
tapioca
FD,
Quote: "Anyone want to grab a beer and chase a few "ladies" ?"...
Actually the ladies will be chasing you... They are hurting for business. Even an old geezer like you will feel like a prince! Have fun. I just got back from the 99 cent store. I bought a bunch of bullshit gifts for the AC girls. It's amazing what $10 in crap will get you in AC. Last time I did this I managed to get two free sneak outs.
…24 days and a wakeup.
...(prog)
Hi guys,
I have been following this forum from the old format till today. From my observation, adleZ is the black sheep in the Thailand forum. The first time I read his comment, I have a feeling that he is an asshole (adleZ, sorry for this remark and please read further). Most guys here including me may not like the tone or the way adleZ put up his statement in this forum. Now I begin to understand and respect his present in this forum. For the past few days I have wanted to come to defense adleZ.
I strongly believe adleZ have been very cordial and respect the way of life of the Thai people. If he has been otherwise, he will not be alive to contribute to this forum. Thai people are not for you to mess with, to them life is cheap. If you know what I mean. Only thing is he may not be in agreement to some of their way of life. AdleZ have been living in Thailand and is his 4th years in Thailand with many up and down in life, he have and had tune his mentality and way of life that suit him well to due and live with Thai people.
After reading some other guys comments here about how adleZ mistreat Thai BGs or Thai Hooker really puzzled me. AdleZ want to release his load, he have 2 option (1. Masturbate 2. Get some help). Say if he decided to take 2nd option, he FIND them (TBGs or Hooker) and they are willing to take adleZ as customer. Next to the room and adleZ FUCK unload his sperm into the willing sperm recipient in 2 minutes or 2 hours. Final pay the agree fee and FORGET. AdleZ have unload his sperm and wallet is light and the service provider have done her job as per expected with additional needed cash. What wrong with that??? Come to think about it adleZ treat Thai BGs or Hooker with respect.
All this time of mine spend reading this Thailand forum; I think adleZ want to bring this message to all of us guys when we are on the tour of duty in Thailand.
“DON’T PLAY WITH FIRE”. Meaning that, don’t ever give emotion any ground to get into the way specially involving Thai BGs. NEVER NEVER let our guard down. “3F” policy is the way.
I am of the opinion that Thai people are fun to be associate with and due to this natural Thai BGs are the best hooker in this world. They do their job well. If you let your guard down, TBGs only take your hard-earn money if you are lucky. If otherwise your soul will be take as well. Have you guys ever ask this question to yourself. What social status or standing farang is to Thai BGs family. herself and their community ??? A walking, talking, stupid ATM. Have you guys ever heard of the statement coined by Thai “ Farang know to much is BAD “.
Most of us guys comes to LOS, confident well equip with good knowledge on the pro and con in this Internet era and are very sure on their objective (for a well deserve break, work or for whatever reasons). Quite a number go back with happy memories but left their soul behind and continue visit again and again till the true face of whom their soul is with is reveal. By then majority of those will go back fell deceived, broken and without life.
To ChrisC30
Please don’t be offended with my observation on some of your posting in Thailand forum. As per your quote
“I haven't "decided" on marrying an Asian necessarily, but I've reached that point in my life (30 years old) when I want to have a family, and basically fed up with american girls (live in Florida). For some reason I tend to be drawn towards asians,“
and I hope you do not use Thailand and especially Thai BGs as your starting point to further your understanding in Asian lady. I smell desperation in your quest.
Oh ya, one more thing, what special services do you expect. As per your quote
“If you're like Adlez, you're getting nothing special, nothing to remember, but I can bet you're still paying "farang" prices.
If you're like me, you're going to get service, if it's ST/LT/whatever else, you're going to get that service.”
Girl Friend effect and for your info they will provide you with the most memorable Girl Friend Effect you have ever experience in your life. Is that was you looking for. This is very dangerous and Thailand must be approach with great caution especially in your case. Don’t say you are not warned.
I wish you best of luck.
To adleZ and Gladiator
Gladiator quoted and seconded by adleZ or vice versa
“3F is the name of the game in the Land Of Smiles (vertical smiles), and 3F is the name of the game everywhere else on earth.
Only by applying the 3rd and final F can we win the game.”
I don’t think “3F” is a game and you don’t win. You only get want you bargain for. Is only a normal sexual service transaction.
Yes I do prescript to “3F” approach for my headache and yes I do believe my chance to be hurt is close to none. But where is the fun ???
I will not travel 40 hours to & fro just for the “3F”. I will prefer the more friendly approach and play along with the Thai BGs game. I love to hear the way the Thai BGs slang when they tell you “I love you, only you”, “I miss you very much” and so on and on when I am in LOS. Only go into the right ear and out from the left ear and vice versa. And I also like to learn something new from their way of life like jimhart69 or joe_zop has put it
“you can learn something new from everybody you meet in life. Open your mind, and see what you don't know in life! Most of these girls are seeing life from a completely opposite side from us in the west. They live in a 3rd world country, 90% of them poor, most of them have not been to more than a few years in school, and have ever seen another country outside of Thailand.”
When my time is up to leave LOS, will I go back home with fond memories with my soul still intact. The answers so far are “YES”. This shows that I have been winning and this is what I call game.
Reach home the 2 part of the game continue by e-mail with the same Thai English of “I love you, only you”, “I miss you very much” and so on and on. Now is their main motive “YOU GUYS GUESS RIGHT” money talk.
My response how much you need. I will send when my next paycheck is out.
Follow-up by Thai BGs e-mail “I love you very very much, only you I love.. Guys please fill-up for as you think fit. I need US$X,XXX for this and that when your next paycheck.
My response No problem, I send you US$x,xxx Mid-month or end-month, okay my love and only love.
Follow-up by Thai BGs e-mail I miss you, my love. I hope I can be with you. When are you coming to see me? Today is mid-month or end –month have you got your paycheck.
My response blah blah blah, what about my paycheck. Love you very much
Follow-up by Thai BGs e-mail blah blah blah, you say you send me US$x,xxx for this and that.
My response blah blah blah, oh yes I forgotten and very busy with work lot of traveling, very sorry for that. I send when my next paycheck is out.
E-mail to & fro until Thai BGs gave up. End of game. Who won ???
In my opinion, I am playing with fire by allowing Thai BGs to show their skill to hook up a cash cow or stupid ATM. You be surprise of the result. Some of them are real good in their presentation.
Am I sick or are Thai BGs think I am stupid ATM? Will you guys think I mistreat or disrespect Thai BGs. Who is right and who is wrong???
AdleZ, don’t need to care about what other said about you. I know you are a decent guy. Should I make it to Korat so day, singha beer on me.
Firedick,
I will be getting to Bangkok on the 10th of December at 11:30 p.m. from Taipei, on the 11 and 12th, I will be in Pattaya on business. Than back to Bangkok on the 12th and will be in Bangkok to the 20th. It would be great to meet you some time.
E-mail me at jimhart69@hotmail.com
"The real world ofcourse is the one where they couldn't hack it..."
haha...dats funny freeler...
tapioca
I doubt Adlez is a "bible thumper", or else it'd probably be some sort of violation of his morals to be with a prostitute. Although that might explain why he would need to go to Thailand to do it.
It always strikes me funny how people use heathen incorrectly.
It's a devout term, coined by religiously devout people, to refer to people of other religions, or who have cast aside the faith.
Referring to it generally, such as by class, race, gender, or any other stereotype (she's working, not preaching free love) is just ludicrous. Even more ludicrous for someone who partakes of said service to make the reference.
The "pot calling the kettle black" tendency to throw a term about with no real thought behind it is quite common among "bible thumpers", however, and for a non-religious person to use the term heathen is certainly worthy of contempt.
But oh well, let's be kind to master Adlez and do as he says, as he's apparently the only adviser on Earth for teaching a guy how to get a cheap, ST screw. We'd be lost without his genius.
Don't take anyone's word as "gospel" (please forgive the term),
do what feels right for YOU. If you want to carry on a relationship of some sort, go ahead. If you feel like sleeping with the girl, be my guest. If you want to go 3F, please do. There's 100 stories told 100 ways, but it's up to you to determine what you want.
On an odd note, I haven't really kept up relations with any of the service girls I've been with, so perhaps there's alittle Adlez in me.
I have, however, kept in touch with afew local girls from my travels (none prostitutes that I know of, but I could be wrong),
and I agree to some extent that for the most part don't "date" a hooker, atleast not when she's "on your dollar". If you meet a girl in a bar, on the street, wherever, and you want to spend time with her, make sure there's a distinction. You can buy her a drink if you like, a meal, meet her family, but don't expect much.
Given afew exceptions (VERY FEW), a hooker is a hooker. If you pay a hooker, you get to screw her, if you marry a hooker, she gets to screw you.
Be careful getting too attached. An email every now and then is ok, but don't expect marriage to work out the way it might with some non-hooker. They can be a good friend, maybe even a girlfriend while you're there, but don't sign over your fortune to her.
Freeler,
I detected a hint of sarcasm in ChrisC30's comments about the Z-man. I wouldn’t read more into his comments than for just fun humor and light observations (IMHO).
...(prog)
Yes, that was sarcasm.
I don't in any way suggest AdleZ is the master instructor of where to get cheap Thai sex.
Anyhow, yes, the topic seems to be degrading into a pissing contest, so let's move on to the topic, and put aside this.
Where were we?
I usually surf by this "Thai Women" site out of curiousity and my participation is passive if not non-existent. I do notice that it is probably the most active board I have seen on WSG with a solid cast of the usual suspects. I will say one thing about AdleZ or *****..or whomever, and thats to say that, love him or hate him, no one ignores him.
Skinless -- good to see you back, albeit reduced once again it appears in posting activity to near nothingness. In looking, it appears the core source of the Puccini opera is a story by John Luther Long (American) first published in 1898, then turned into a play by David Belasco two years later. An interesting predecessor is Madame Chrysantheme, which appeared about ten years earlier, where the temporary wife makes a big scene when the naval officer leaves, but then is found happily counting her money and waiting for her next 'husband' at the end. A bit more like the flip side real life in that one, eh?
And, honestly, the overly protracted language discussion a few days back was more interesting than a new round of Z bashing. Wildman's right -- let's move on to something else.
wow...able assistence!?!? i feel so honored i got mentioned twice already. woohoo!!!
oh, any of u guys read stick's weekly? some funny ass shit as he travels thru issan....i don't know why but adlez was da first thing that came to mind when stick talked about the expat community in issan.
geezes wman, stop being so dramatic..."courage to stand alone"??? dood, lighten up. dis is a forum for talkin' smack, not da alamo...
tap tap tappin' on dat ass...
So, how about we talk about Thai Women?
Anyhow, I like to think of it like this, as my new buddy jimhart6969 pointed out, Thailand is THE place to play around.
You've got gorgeous girls (and not so gorgeous) right and left,
all eager to screw the money out of you.
I guess I have some fun in asia for one simple reason. I don't have high standards, hehe. There are some people who will go their entire trip looking for something they can't find.
My advice :
Find a girl, get to it, and party!
If you're looking for a lifetime partnership, watch your wallet!
Get what you pay for!
In my travels, not just asia but anywhere, I've noticed one thing,
and that is...ENJOY YOURSELF! You'll feel 50 times better doing whatever it is you do, if you have a good time.
So let's get back on topic and have a good time.
heh heh...lets get dis straight...who's da one in here preaching about the 3F's??? u know da only reason ur doing it is cause u were a victim. don't go high and mighty on us saying how u lived there for 4 years and thus, know how "these people" think. fact is, out of all of us, ur da only one that really got ripped off. u only preach it cause u da sucker for falling for it in da 1st place. ur da poster child for this forum for what happens if u don't follow da 3 f's. u become grumpy, smelly, and have ta live in da poorest of the poor in los. btw, stop saying how u created dis forum. you were spamming the bkk forum and clogging it up for real bizness.
yeah, we all envy dis life of havin' to fuck 50 baht *****s cause u can't afford 100bht ones. i mean, if u said u lived in bkk, had a decent job, lived in a company paid apt at the emporium, hell yeah, i'll envy u. but u don't. u live like a dog, fuck like one, and live in a dog house. why would we envy that?
lastly, no matter what we say in here, we're not reaching out to anybody. people don't come in here to find advice for thai women. they come in here to find where to go for pussy.
adlez, besides da fact u live like an animal, we really do have a lot in common. we both don't drink, we both golf, and we both love pattaya. oh, and i've been to athens and cinci...
ok, on that note, my 100th post!
tapioca
Tapioca -
Actually, I DO come for advice on Thai women. I've had some minor experiences there, but most of my travels in asia have taken me elsewhere.
Not like I'm trying to pick their brains or psycho-analyze them, but I'm sure there's alot to know.
For the most part, I'd say almost everyone here is after pussy, given the adult sex-oriented nature of the content, but some of us like alittle information on who we're sticking it into.
Their motivations and desires can sometimes clue us in as to how to get the best service for our money.
Congratulations on your 100'th post, woohoo this makes a big 25 for me!!
:-)
Why does this have to be a pissing contest ? Aren't we all after basically the same thing, albiet different approaches ?
I don't understand people who criticize blokes who fall in love with TG's, send them money, etc. They're kind-hearted men in need of emotional support and willing to do anything (even giving money away) in order to find a meaning in their lives.
Believe it or not, those kind-hearted blokes, aka suckers, play an essential role in the Land Of Vertical Smiles. Thanks to them many girls think within every farang there's a potential sucker, and they provide a better service so as to activate our sucker side. If it wasn't for the existence of suckers sexual services wouldn't be so good in the LOVS. So suckers really contribute to the improvement of the Thai sex scene.
Imagine the average sucker: he arrives at BKK international airport for the first time, checks into the Nana hotel, at 8:00 pm walks the long way up to Nana Plaza, gets into a go-go bar and at 8:15 pm meets Lek, who happens to be a lovely, sweet and cuddly TG . The sucker soon realises Lek is not a hardened pro (despite having been 3F'ed by over 1,000 blokes) but a special girl, who probably is working as a pro against her own nature, and she definitely deserves all his attention (and his money). After a few days enjoying Lek's silky pussy the sucker is absolutely convinced she is the girl of his life, and thanks to e-mails and Western Union he keeps in contact with her. Lek tells her friends the great profit potential of being sweet and cuddly with farangs, who are stupid enough to end up sending money, and they all improve their service in search of potential suckers.
We must be very grateful to suckers of all nationalities for their contribution to the system. All of us benefit from it.
Long live suckers!
Gladiator,
That post reminds me of the "Bargirls 10 Commandments" that
I saw in www.bangkokbobs.net.
Gladiator, you speak words of wisdom! It takes the actions[and money] of the uninitiated, to allow the more knowledgeable of us to benefit, as long as we're cognizant of the distinction. I'm only a recent reader of this board, but I'm planning a trip to LOS next year. I have made multiple trips to other venues in SEA on business[and some pleasure], and I'm looking forward to breaking my Thai cherry. Thanks for sharing all of this useful info, and blazing the trail for us latecomers!
had to add my 2 cents I think alot of Farangs fall for the "Pretty Women" syndrome (It's a movie). Basically guy falls in love with a hooker (Julia Roberts). Hooker is looking for a knight in shining armor. guy rescues the hooker from the streets...and they live happily ever after.
Sounds like a fairy tale.......
JuiceSpike
10-19-02, 04:06
Does anybody know any good Thai hooker jokes?
Gladiator
funny stuff but so true...
Tomorrow I leave for BKK and will be there for three weeks doing research for this board.... also, will hook up with a couple of guys from this board and exchange notes....
Adlez
I would like to meet you for a drink if you are available. I got a feeling that you would be an alright guy to meet...
Skinless
I won't be doing the "heart of darkness tour" you are the expert on this one...
Joe
I will test new angles on the "butterfly" theory and hopefully not have my dick fed to ducks...
cheers.
Good luck, Juice. I've still got two weeks left before I head over.
Great post, Gladiator. Hilarious and true.
dlite -
You're right I think. It's kind of the same logic that brings men to lesbian clubs thinking they can score. It's like some sort of primal challenge to woo that which they cannot have.
I'll admit a relationship beyond money with these girls is somewhat possible, but with their mindset already involving a business-only relationship, it'd take so much effort to convert them over to a casual feeling of companionship, that in the end it's really seldom worth the effort.
Hell, one of my best friends I've ever known was a hooker here in the USA. No, I'd never even consider marrying her, but I didn't pay for sex with her (I suppose the term "fuck buddy" works more than boyfriend at the time). But all in all it's best to keep things on the businessman/service-girl level.
Be 100% sure that if you have your heart set on a prostitute....
1) She REALLY feels something for you (not just the size of your wallet).
2) You're POSITIVE that she's "the one for you".
3) You can trust her, as alot of people who are in this sort of business have no problem robbing you, lying to you, ditching you in an instant if the relationship turns sour.
4) She understands fully the relationship you want.
That said, I'm sure most of you will realize it's basically a lost cause to try and find the bar-girl with the pure heart, when you could simply find someone who is looking for a husband, who has never set foot in a bar.
I agree, the "farang" novice who falls in love with the first hooker to drop her panties is rather silly, but it does happen. The fact is, there are afew success stories out there. I find it best to prepare the poor lovesick fool for what's in store for him beforehand, rather than try to tell him not to go looking, since like anyone you say no to, he's only going to find her that much more appealing when you tell him he can't keep her.
The 3F system is a kind of mental block we put in our heads to keep us from being caught in a moment of weakness and end up shelling out more money before we can stop ourselves.
For those of us who can have casual, good, healthy fun, whether for a day, or a week, 3F isn't always necessary. But for many of us, it is. As long as there are temptations, there will be a desire to shield ourselves from said spectacle, so 3F will continue to be a "safe haven" for our impartiality for millenia.
JuiceSpike
10-19-02, 11:43
Joe
Thanks. You have a safe trip and many good experiences.
Skinless
Don't go looking for love in between a hooker's legs. In there, they have lots of love to make money.
NOVEMBER -
Think maybe you could post a link to the "Bar Girl 10 Commandments" you mentioned? I tried the website, but can't find an obvious section for it.
Everyone -
What might be good is if we could spread the word on our travels about the forum's "classifieds" section. It seems very lacking in content, and I'm sure there are bars with websites and emails out there looking to get more business.
I'm sure there are cases where fairy tales do come true.
But my opinion is that it's really hard to get emotionally close to a hooker.......a physical connection is no problem.
Economically speaking...most hookers don't have any other marketable skill..or else why would they be turning tricks. So if you fall in love with one...it's pretty sure you're going to support them.
What's the 3F's....is it Find.....F**K.....Forget????
I know the 4F's....Find them....Feel them.....F**k them....Forget them.
3F is 4F without the FEEL.
The final F, depending on who you talk to, is either "forget", or "finish". I prefer the latter, as you might want to try them again sometime.
Yes I agree that this faerietale dreamgirl crap is abit out there, but trying to tell a child no is a more a lost cause then finding a marriageable hooker, better to just prepare him for the let-down when it comes.
An emotional detachment is difficult for some, so they need to play the "F games" with their minds. It's like Pavlov's whistle, some people need to train themselves.
wildman -
Only 2 trips to Thailand. Been here and there in SEA though.
I tend to base my experience on asia as a whole, not necessarily just Thailand (where I haven't had too much experience).
Both trips were month-long stays however. I guess like many of us, I wanted to stay awhile and figure out what all the fuss was about.
Did my share of bar-hopping, side BYOG excursions, sightseeing. Overall I'd love to go back, just haven't found the time yet. I try to go to as many places as possible, not necessarily the same place twice.
Looks-wise, Thais are some of the better girls out there, from my brief stays. Service-wise, also excellent. I'll admit though, these rich morons need to negotiate more, atleast that can keep the prices low for the rest of us working men!
I'd like to know the culture and local scene better, but my experiences were 100% fun, despite my lack of language skills.
For ChrisC30 (courtesy of [url]www.bangkokbob.net)
1. At the end of the week, specifically Friday and Saturday, many locally employed walking ATM machines will come to your bar, choose carefully! Some have money, but others do not! If he is wearing a suit and tie, check that the tie is not a Pratunam special and check that he isn't wearing trainers.
If he is, forget him because he is most likely an English teacher, and they will only give you peanuts, if they give you anything at all.
2. No matter how fat and ugly he is, no matter how bad he may smell, no matter how drunk he is, make sure you always tell him he is handsome. Sit close to him and run your hands over his body, arousing him.
As soon as he has paid the bar fine, you can stand clear of him. Even if he knows that you despise him, he'll still pay you. The hard part is getting him to pay the bar, and as soon as he has done that, the rest is easy.
3. Start collecting email addresses from all of your customers, once you have a good collection of addresses, a visit to your local Internet cafe is in order. Send everyone an email. Simply change the name on each email and send it off to all the guys. If you can remember something specific about them, mention that in the email too.
These walking ATMs all have a soft heart, so you need to tell them a story to get them to send you some of their riches. Start with a sick buffalo and if he doesn't reply, next tell him that your mother is ill. As a last resort, if he still doesn't send any money, tell him you are pregnant and the baby is his!
4. Practice crying on cue. It is essential that you can produce tears immediately. This will have the effect of helping the walking ATM machine to see things your way!
5. When you get a customer for an extended period of time, make sure he takes you shopping, with Rarn Tong (gold shop) being the best place to visit. Make sure he buys you gold and if he doesn't, see rule 4!
As soon as he has left Thailand, take the gold back to the shop and sell it straight back to them, thus increasing your pay out.
6. When locally based farangs are inside the bars, do not speak in Thai with your friends in the bar but rather use Lao, Khmer or any other dialects that you may know.
It's bad enough that some of them can speak and even read Thai, but Lao and Khmer should be kept as sacrosanct. Under no circumstances should the farang be taught our regional dialects.
7. Always see him off at the airport. Thai currency cannot be used in his country, so it is highly likely that he will give you all of his leftover Baht as he leaves and says goodbye.
While accompanying him to the airport, prevent him buying going-away gifts for his family and friends in his homeland, this will leave more money for you.
8. See Asian customers. They understand that we like to gamble, and they understand that we have lots of unemployed brothers and sisters who need to eat. Therefore, they pay a lot better than the farangs.
9. Remember, when you go with a farang, you must always ask for taxi money and give him the excuse that taxi drivers cannot give change on big notes. Don't let him see the small change in your wallet. If taxi money isn't forthcoming, see rule 4.
10. If you are no longer making money in Bangkok, move down to Phuket where you will be able to start making money again. Give Phuket a few years, then move on to Pattaya. Even if you are approaching 50, it is no problem as the walking ATM machines in Pattaya seem to be so blind, they will not notice.
Makes a lot of sense!!!
Be in LOS early November...can't wait!
Hmm, let's see -- Z thinks using advice about women from a cartoon character who is an insane villian is the way to go. Well, we all have our role models :D
Good luck in Ohio; I suspect the weather will end up distressing you more than the women, as the idea of having much success with American women during a two-week stop is like thinking you as a farang are going to marry into elite Thai society. It will be interesting to get your take on American society having been away for a while. At least you're getting over before the snow hits.
wildman -
I've been to Japan, Cambodia, Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, can New Zealand count too?
Much shorter stays elsewhere than Thailand. I just had to stay awhile and see all I could. Thailand reminds me of Disneyworld, you just have to spend as much time as possible there.
Japan has very very nice girls, but it's expensive as hell, and alot of the girls, catering to japanese businessmen, aren't much on special service, although service-oriented girls can be found.
Cambodia, reminds me of Thailand, but dirtier. The girls I've been with were drop-dead-gorgeous, but when you're doing the deed in what amounts to a rickety wooden outhouse, the magic is gone. If your scenery matters to you, get room service in Phnom Penh.
Philippines ranks second to Thailand. You'll find great looking girls, prices are good, service is also good. Angeles City can still be a ***** to maneuver if you don't do your homework though.
Vietnam, the girls are absolutely perverted. Hehehe. Some of them are alittle on the not-too-attractive side, but the way they touch you, -sprooooiiinnnnnggggg-, 'nuff said? Prices aren't bad, but it's not my top choice,
Indonesia. I've had a girlfriend from there. She was a knockout.
Some of the girls there are good, some are ugly, some are old and ugly. It's also not really my top choice.
Malaysia, wow. I didn't expect it, but the girls there are pretty impressive. I didn't pay for sex (if I can swing it, I try to find a local girlfriend to play with), but from what I saw, there's not really a lack of business. Looks, I say go for it, but can't advise on hookers or prices first-hand as I didn't partake.
Thailand, as I said before, is like Disneyworld. You have your kiddie rides, your thrill rides, the comedy rides, LOL! Seriously, it's one of the better places to go worldwide. I don't really consider my 2 month-long stays to be that much time because I didn't really go everywhere. There's way too much to see.
No offense to New Zealand, but action was lacking. Not in terms of business, but in terms of looks. I admit I didn't go everywhere, but damn, 2 places, a selection of 15+ girls, half looked like guys with tits, the other half looked like their genes didn't decide whether they wanted to be an adult or a kid (don't know how else to explain what I saw). I'd say forget it.
Ok that said, here's the places to go :
Thailand
Philippines
Cambodia
Vietnam
Malaysia
I list Cambodia 3rd only because of the trouble one usually goes to to find a good cheap gorgeous girl. If I had a strong stomach I might give them 2nd, but I am human.
Vietnam is up there for one reason and one reason only. I find sometimes that the aggressive grabbing and fondling they do does turn me on. Even in Cambodia, the Viet girls were hot, ready, and knew how to make you want them.
Malaysia is really a great place. I've had friends who go there alot. KL is a pretty happening place to be.
You can't go wrong with those 5, although Cambodia can be abit troublesome these days for those who can't handle themselves.
Feel free to modify the list, or comment on it.
Anyhow...
All in all, I feel a mysterious draw toward the East. Can't tell yet for certain whether it's my soul or my nether-regions. It's really an enchanting place. No particular nation has any real superiority over another, each has it's own magic.
Nice post, Chris, thanks. To refer to the topic, what are the differences you see between TGs and those from the other areas?
Well it's their personality more than anything else. There are alot of Cambodian, Indonesian, and etc.. girls who could pass for Thai. Mainily it's their service, the "act" they put on for the customers (maybe it's how they are, but it sure seems well-rehearsed. The way they treat you (not counting the thieves), the incredibly freaky skills they seem to pick up.
Go to Patpong, those damn sex shows (when available, some shows use things that the cops don't always like) are incredible, except for the really sick ones.
Hell, the land itself is just amazing. Pattaya had some guy who did a snake show with what looked like cobras to me. I think I saw him (or someone else) on a TV news show back here. There's always something new to see.
Thai girls, their general setup, even the environment itself, are what makes Thailand so unique. There's nothing to truly compare for the other places.
This one girl (details iffy) went with me LT, stayed all night, absolutely adorable, very cuddly. For the next 2 days, was she watching me to know when I was around?, she popped up here and there, offering me fresh fruit, showing me around town, absolutely perfect. Not surprising I spent a good deal of time with this girl, just in case she was a 1 in a million and I'd never find another, but there were others with similar sort of class about them.
Imagine a girl anywhere else going out of her way to show you a good time, even after she's been paid. Sure she was probably looking for more money, but it's still a classy way to go about it.
Joe,
Anything to change the subject eh... OK, I'll bite my tongue.
FD
I agree with firedick! Lets change the subject and move on.
Firedick, I have not hear from you on possible meeting in Bangkok. I will be in Bangkok the same time you are going to be there. jimhart69@hotmail.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.4 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.