View Full Version : 2005 Thai Women - Opinions & Advice
JuiceSpike
09-04-05, 15:08
I got this form another website:
Bar Girl Talk and Transalation
“This my brother.” – “This is my Thai boyfriend.”
“This my sister.” – “We’ve been toiling here together for the past two years, which is about the only family relationship we have apart from the fact that we’re from the same village.”
“Hello, handsome man!” – “Hello, enticing wallet!”
“I want take care you.” – “I want to clean out your wallet.”
“I only work here one week.” – “Yes, I’ve been only working here for one week, but I’ve already been through six different other joints in my 10-year career.”
“Where you come from?” – “In case you’re German or Italian, scram!”
“Tomorrow my grandmother bird day.” – “Slip me a couple of hundred Baht, sucker, because my grandma’s been dead for ten years already.”
“Water buffalo sick.” – “I want you to pay for a new house for my family.”
“How about Germany?” – “I am a transvestite and would like to go work in Frankfurt.”
“You very funny.” – “You bore me to death. Just buy me another lady’s drink and stop groping my crotch, old man!”
“I want stay with you forever.” – “Please pay the barfine.”
“Where hotel you stay?” – “Is your hotel’s security weak enough so I can take off unharmed with your expensive SLR camera?”
“You have lady before?” – “How knowledgeable are you about our scams?”
“How many time you come Thailand?” – “What is the potential of exploiting you further?”
“Why you no like me? I like you too much!” – “I’m afraid you may have seen behind my charade.”
“You teacher in Thailand?” – “You know too much about Thailand.”
“I go dancing now.” – “Another customer is waiting. You’re not the only sucker I serve.”
Ever heard the above before? ;)
juicer
The "You a teacher?" question, actually translates as "If you're a teacher I'll walk away now, and find a customer with more than 100 Baht to offer".
Wolverine15
09-10-05, 08:35
DJ Monger,
While your plan is possible there are of course several pitfalls.
Romancing a proper Thai woman can be tricky and time consuming. Are you moving to Thailand? Going to spend a lot of time there?
Do you speak Thai? If not then the likelyhood of you meeting up with someone who has been or is a part of the p4p scene is high. I would worry about you getting tricked by a pro.
Do you have Thai freinds? I think this is important so they can check out your potential partner. Otherwise you may have to hire a PI.
How well do you think she would adjust to life outside of Thailand? Unfortunately some Thai ladies dont adjust well to expat life. Also many Thais are quite proud of their homeland and would never consider moving.
Now that all my disclaimers are out of the way I can tell you that my thai wife is an absolute gem. A virgin at the time of our marriage. A super hard worker. A great mom. A great wife. A very kind heart.
She was my second thai girlfriend. After the first I vowed no more bar girls, studied thai language culture and customs, lived in thailand for long stretches of time, made some very loyal thai freinds. All of the above made the journey possible.
If you are really serious you gotta do the work. Otherwise you may end up in the trash heap of farang men who have been taken to the cleaners and or had their hearts broken. Learn to speak thai. Get away from BKK and Pattaya. Go upcountry and stay for a while. You will see.
DJ Monger,
While your plan is possible there are of course several pitfalls. Naturally!
Romancing a proper Thai woman can be tricky and time consuming. Are you moving to Thailand? Going to spend a lot of time there?I lived in thailand for 6 months a few years back (working, though it was a weird job) and figured pulling this off would involve some time "on the ground" as it were - I could get some long stretches off from my job (I'm self employed) but not indefinately. I was thinking 3 months might be long enough to get started, perhaps find someone I was interested in and go from there? Basically my plan is to pick up a job teaching english somewhere far off the beaten path, and use that to make contacts, and get a firsthand view of what the people around me are really about.
Indonesia is only a few hours from thailand, so I could return a few times pretty easily.
Do you speak Thai.I took a crash course of sorts for 2 months when I first came to live in Thailand, then lessons once a week for 6 more months. but I'm far from fluent! "broken marketplace" is more like it. I figure if I'm actually going to go through with this, the whole time I'm in thailand I'll be studying the language pretty hard. I'm not a genius with languages but I'm not copletely useless at them either (my indonesians not too bad anyway).
If not then the likelyhood of you meeting up with someone who has been or is a part of the p4p scene is high. I would worry about you getting tricked by a pro.Yeah, thats a concern for me. though I've been in Asia for 5 years now, as an entrepeneur for 3, hopefully I'm not completely clueless. Still, yeah, it's far from impossible for me to get burned somehow, which is why I'm trying to hash out my ideas here.
Do you have Thai freinds? I think this is important so they can check out your potential partner. Otherwise you may have to hire a PI.One of the reasons I moved from thailand is couse I didn't think I'd *ever* make a thai friend who would help me at the expense of another thai person, in any circumstance whatsoever. And in Indonesia I'd probably just expect a PI to hit up whoever they were investigating for a cash bribe to not tell me what dirt they dug up! (though my Indonesian friends do give me the dirt on my local girlfriends though, so maybe I'm just being paranoid)
How well do you think she would adjust to life outside of Thailand? Unfortunately some Thai ladies don't adjust well to expat life. Also many Thais are quite proud of their homeland and would never consider moving.Yup, thats an impression I've gotten before, it's something I figure could throw a spanner in the works with this scheme. plus I'm going to bali, not america/europe, so it's doubly a problem (I mean the word "america" has a bit of a ring to it for many asians, but "bali"? to a Thai? ) to be honest it's occurred to me to go somewhere rural as hell and look for someone poor enough to appreciate getting the heck out of their village, to wherever. Though if I could talk a rich college girl into taking off to Bali I wouldn't mind!
I also considered trying this in a country where people were more eager to leave, like Cambodia or Burma, but I just like Thai women so much! It's the sanug.
Now that all my disclaimers are out of the way I can tell you that my thai wife is an absolute gem. A virgin at the time of our marriage. A super hard worker. A great mom. A great wife. A very kind heart.Congrats! so obviously it not impossible then (didnt really think it was) do you guys live outside Thailand?
She was my second thai girlfriend. After the first I vowed no more bar girls, studied thai language culture and customs, lived in Thailand for long stretches of time, made some very loyal Thai freinds. All of the above made the journey possible.Yeah, I'm getting a lot of benefits out of doing the same in Indonesia.
If you are really serious you gotta do the work. Otherwise you may end up in the trash heap of farang men who have been taken to the cleaners and or had their hearts broken. Learn to speak thai. Get away from BKK and Pattaya. Go upcountry and stay for a while. You will see.Yup, thats pretty much my plan. I realize what I'm proposing is far from an easy ride, and I'm willing to jump through some elaborite hoops to do it right. I'm just not sure I've got enough time to do it (3 months like I said, at least to get the ball rolling so to speak) or if it's even remotely possible at all, actually!
DMJ
Old Thai Hand
09-12-05, 02:38
While I don't disagree with most of Wolverine's post, I find some of it a little simplistic. I have one question, why "get away from Bangkok?" Bangkok is the best place, in my opinion to find someone who combines all the best features of Thai women and has some cosmopolitan sophistication and a proper education, so you can actually speak to her about something. Up-country girls are often the proverbial uneducated, "country-bumpkins" one would expect. True that their naiivete can be charming in a cynical world, but it can also be downright annoying too. Upcountry, often means Isaan, which is where we enter the realm of my very personal taste. I personally can't stand a good many Isaan women: the way they look, the way they think, the way they act and the way they talk (loud and abrassive) and the way they speak Thai. Most upcountry girls can't even handle Bangkok! So, the prospect of another location outside of Thailand is even more of a challenge.
While I think Chiang Mai and possibly Chiang Rai are possible second choices for finding a beautiful Thai women, largely because northern Thai women are often strikingly beautiful, Bangkok still has the most beautiful Thai women in the country. This is largely because it's the base of most the white-skinned Thai-Chinese beauties which, let's face it beat Thai girls from anywhere else, especially Isaan, hands down for looks, grace, charm, breeding, sex-appeal and intelligence.
Also, I totally disagree that it takes some work to woo a regular Thai woman, if you apply some of the factors I've outlined in numerous posts: learn the language, learn the culture, and live and work here in a proper job (not an English teacher for God's sake!) you'll be able to do it fairly easily. Making Thai friends is a huge factor, but they have to be the right Thai friends. Up-country Thais might often be the salt of the earth, but they are also often boring as shit and as the Thais would say "LoSo". So, by marrying one of them, you'll become LoSo, too and will not exactly be the envy of people in a country where status counts for everything. You'll certainly be the "big I am" upcountry because you're a Farang. But, walking around in the city with your country wife will engender stairs of derision from most Thais. Perhaps, I've been co-opted by Thai thinking after being here for so many years. But, being seen with an upcountry girl, unless she came from somewhere close-by like Nakon Pathom, Samut Prakarn or Chonburi would probably be somewhat embarassing for me. I had a "blind date" the other day with a girl who turned out to be upcountry, cute, nice, sweet and friendly, if not exactly the greatest conversationalist: she was dumber than a sack of hammers. A friend spotted me (I didn't see him) and sent me a text message, "She's too dark, mate", which basically said the people who you know are going to look at you askance if they see you with her. That, of course is a personal thing about me and my position that really isn't as big of a factor for a lot of Farang.
In general, I find it much easier charming Thai women, than Western woman. They are all simplistically romantic, not the cynical bitches with major attitude that you find in the west. By being Farang, you have major cache as long as you are not one of the scum who frequent Pattaya or lurk around Nana all the time. You have to be of a certain type, which I have spoken about before. Basically, you have to provide status of a certain kind for her in order to get her. Upcountry that often simply means money and a better life. But, also you are then "stuck" upcountry. That may be your cup-of-tea, but doesn't seem especially appealing to me, personally.
Lastly, Wolverine, you have indicated that you have only had 2 Thai women: one PfP and your virgin wife. While I congratulate you on finding her, I don't think 2 qualifies you as an expert in any way in how best to find a regular Thai woman. In the last 4 months since moving back after a 9-month stint in the States, I have dated 15 regular Thai women and shagged 5 of them. almost all of them were smart, educated and beautiful with good jobs. I'm not that different from anybody else who reads this forum. On average, I would say that I shagged them by the second date. So, it's not that difficult really. Unless, I just happen to be incredibly lucky (or charming...lol) or both, and don't know it. They were all marriage material and one of them may be the one I end up with.
DJ monger, read the Bali board, as I believe what I have to say belongs there, not on the LOS board.
while i don't disagree with most of wolverine's post, i find some of it a little simplistic. i have one question, why "get away from bangkok?"too easy to get burned i reckon, with so many city slickers specializing in taking foreigners for a ride. also, even if i managed to avoid that, someone who was used to bangkok would find bali pretty boring i'd imagine.
up-country girls are often the proverbial uneducated, "country-bumpkins" one would expect. true that their naiivete can be charming in a cynical world, but it can also be downright annoying too.in the past i've done quite well with smart young country girls, not too set in their ways and looking for something a bit more stimulating than their boring old hometown. in my experience one can often find a diamond-in-the-rough if you look in the right places. if you can use an ounce of sensitivity to open them up to an interesting new world of restarants, travel, art etc they might wind up loving it! i've had several girlfriends like that, though they were americans. still, have to admit thats my taste in women in a nutshell.
learn the language, learn the culture, and live and work here in a proper job (not an english teacher for god's sake!) hmmm, i was definitely thinking of teaching english. is it considered a lowly job outside of bangkok? i was under the impression teaching was a very honerable profession. i could see where you'd just be one of a zillion teacher drones in bangkok, but would it not have an entirely different cachet in, say, chanthaburi?
up-country thais might often be the salt of the earth, but they are also often boring as shit and as the thais would say "loso". so, by marrying one of them, you'll become loso, too and will not exactly be the envy of people in a country where status counts for everything. you'll certainly be the "big i am" upcountry because you're a farang. but, walking around in the city with your country wife will engender stairs of derision from most thais.well, remember i'm looking at bringing her to bali, not bangkok, so in her hometown she wouldn't stand out as a bumpkin to her peers, and in bali she'd be exotic cause she's not from indonesia. to tell the truth, i don't think it would matter very much at all what people in bangkok think of me/us?
perhaps, i've been co-opted by thai thinking after being here for so many years. but, being seen with an upcountry girl, unless she came from somewhere close-by like nakon pathom, samut prakarn or chonburi would probably be somewhat embarassing for me.yeah, you seem pretty submerged! not that thats bad, i've been quietly "going native" here in bali myself, and i think its a good thing. but i have to admit a lot of your concerns about status and so on wouldn't really mean much outside of thailand, or maybe even bangkok! certainly to me. unless of course we wound up living in bangkok down the road, which i suppose could somehow happen.
upcountry that often simply means money and a better life. but, also you are then "stuck" upcountry. that may be your cup-of-tea, but doesn't seem especially appealing to me, personally.i see your point, and i'd planned to "go hunting" somewhere i wouldn't mind spending a lot of time. but i'm not sure i'd be happy getting "stuck" in bangkok either! it's a great city, but i think in the end i'm less of a city-boy and more of a small-to-midsized-university-town-boy. anyway, again keep in mind the whole idea is that i'm bringing her to bali, where i live and have a career.
lastly, wolverine, you have indicated that you have only had 2 thai women: one pfp and your virgin wife. while i congratulate you on finding her, i don't think 2 qualifies you as an expert in any way in how best to find a regular thai woman.dont take this the wrong way old thai hand, as i'm very interested in your opinion. i was definitely hoping to hear from you on this, but it does seem like wolverine's already sorta gone and done fairly close to what i'm trying to do, so i'm definately interested to hear input from both of you!
so what do you guys think about the practicality of bringing a thai girl to live in bali? wolverine mentioned it might be an issue, old thai hand what do yo think? would any of them go for it? maybe one of these country bumpkins you're talking about?
also, in the end i know you have to take it on a case by case basis. but i really find indonesians to simply be congenitally unfaithful, not just to foreigners but to each other as well, and not just the hookers but pretty much every last one of them! am i in for an ugly shock if i marry a nice thai girl?
finally, this might be a dumb question, but if i were teaching english, would i be stepping outside the realm of propriety if i were to court a student? bearing in mind i'm really not talking about serial-f*cking a string of them, but finding a wife. of course i'm sure lots of people get away with doing just that, but i think i'd want to display a bit of cultural sensitivity here...
i certainly know indonesian college teachers (the native ones) are infamous for seducing their students...
-djm
JuiceSpike
09-12-05, 15:34
Nice post.
But I have to disagree with you on one thing. It is possible to meet educated, and with a good job Bangkok women without knowing how to speak fluid Thai. In fact, many of these girls like farangs because they want to learn more English and practice their skills as well. Also, many of these women are more comsmopolitan and see themselves as part of a "global" community and not necessarily as "Thai" only. They also want to assimilate more to western ways of life and values which is opposite of traditional "Thai" ways of life. Some women are great wife material.
juice
Good point Juice.
In general speaking Thai helps no end, but Inter-Thais just wanna speak English (even amongst themselves).
My congress with such ladies can be somewhat surreal- I, a Brit, am speaking Thai while the Thai girl speaks English. Ironically, more often than not, they speak better English than most Brits I meet here.
Hmmm, I was definitely thinking of teaching english. Is it considered a lowly job outside of Bangkok? I was under the impression teaching was a very honerable profession.I almost pissed myself laughing- teaching English honourable! Not even close!
Teaching may be considered an honourable profession in Europe or US or wherever, but teaching English in Thailand is considered one rung above a jizz-mopper. English teachers lie somewhere between cockroaches and thieves on the Thai social hierarchy scale. If you're that desperate for work try some LB surgery at Bumrungrad and look for Italian customers outside NEP.
I almost pissed myself laughing- teaching English honourable! Not even close!
Teaching may be considered an honourable profession in Europe or US or wherever, but teaching English in Thailand is considered one rung above a jizz-mopper. English teachers lie somewhere between cockroaches and thieves on the Thai social hierarchy scale. If you're that desperate for work try some LB surgery at Bumrungrad and look for Italian customers outside NEP.I'm not at all desperate for work, and it's not what I do in Bali. In my experience you just meet a lot of people and make good contacts by having a job in a foreign country, its a very practical way of both making local friends and meeting non p4p girls. And I have no idea what other kind of job I'd get in Thailand if I wasn't teaching english. And don't say djing, cause that won't introduce me to the kind of nice girls I want to meet (though of course it would introduce me to all sorts of the wrong kind, as well as probably a few more nak leng than I really want to know) Anyway as a teacher, i'd meet a lot of students, which I have to say would be ideal. I mean, if some aging greaseball british dock worker can hook up with a leggy Bangkok Hiso model teaching english on a fake Koh San Road diploma (as per Old Thai Hand's story a few pages back) imagine how I could do in some small town university where I was the only white guy in town.
But if the consensus is that it's such a degrading, embarassing job to hold, I suppose i could always just become a student instead - same effect!
In indonesia it's far from the bottom of the ladder, and to be blunt it doesn't really even matter that much where you are on the ladder anyway, as long as you're white. Plus both my parents are teachers, though on a university level, I always figured I'd be good at it. And it's crossed my mind to take it on as a profession in, say, Tokyo, if one day the djing stopped bringing in the dough, so a little practice might be useful later on. In the end my idea to teach english has nothing to do with money, and only a little to do with status (in as much as I'd obviously want to avoid coming across as a complete loser if I were wife hunting)
Old Thai Hand
09-13-05, 18:22
English teaching is not completely at the bottom. It really depends on where you teach. If you're teaching at a Thai university, it is certainly a respectable job, especially if you're somewhere like Chulalongkhorn or Thammasat, for example. English teachers who are let's say, a quite a bit further down in the muck and mire are the language school teachers, most of whom I consider losers, especially when they are past 40, as more than a few are. But, teaching itself isn't a lowly profession in Thailand. In fact, teachers, especially university professors are highly respected. I'm treated with an amazing amount of deference and referred to as Ajarn. This title, in it's proper use is quite an honor. Doctors in hospitals are referred to by staff as Ajarn, not doctor. The problem is that the term has been hijacked by the ESL crowd who run around telling people they are ajarn when in fact they are technically 'Khru' (teacher) although I don't think most deserve this title either, as it also carries some respect. It is true, however that if you are a Farang teacher upcountry, you do have more cachet and would get a lot more respect, but, also a lot less money.
Hitting on your students:
Possible. It's done all the time with great effect, if you are in any way presentable. But, I don't personally do it, where I work. I consider it in the category of the saying, "Bears don't shit where they eat."
I dumped my northern Chinese-Thai GF (long story I'll save for another post) and am now currently shagging a 22 year old student from Nakhon Pathom. But, she's at a school about an 1 hour from my place and outside BKK. Last year, I was shagging a couple of Thammasat girls. I have never taught there. Is teaching a possibility for wife-hunting? Sure. The 22 year old asked if I was interested in marrying her. I'm thinking about it.
Juice
I agree with you that many Thai women want to learn English. So, fluency in Thai isn't a necessity as long as you know more than, "Sawasdee khrup" and can order food, tell the taxi where to go etc.
A Thai girl in Bali
It's such a weird concept to me, it might actually work, at least for awhile. But, in general, unless they are the cosmopolitan type of Thai girl who likes to travel and is a bit used to it, I think it might have the same effect as one hears concerning screwed up and lonely TGs wandering around looking for other TGs to eat somtam with in such places as Helsinki, or Luton.
OTH- okay, I agree with that.
A "real" teaching job is perfectly acceptable, but those fucking language school schmucks should be fucking beheaded.
english teaching is not completely at the bottom. it really depends on where you teach. if you're teaching at a thai university, it is certainly a respectable job, especially if you're somewhere like chulalongkhorn or thammasat, for example. english teachers who are let's say, a quite a bit further down in the muck and mire are the language school teachers we could take this offline if you wanted, since it's getting off-topic, but what would i need to have/do in order to get a temp job teaching english, preferably at a university, or at least out of the "muck and mire" i imagine a c-tefla would help. before you say it, i *am* aware that it's not that straightforward to get an official job at a university for a short time. so maybe theres some angle? private tuition, sitting in on some uni accredited english club, something like that?
i would (did) look it up on line, but the internet doesn't neccesarily offer advice on how to backdoor your way into a university system to meet college chicks (unless you count logging into internationalsexguide.info and asking old thai hand)
but, i don't personally do it, where i work. i consider it in the category of the saying, "bears don't shit where they eat." i've taken the same policy with the dancers in my band, after getting burnt a few times - but since it would (i'm imagining) be a short, non-permanent teaching gig, i suppose i could live with the consequences.
i agree with you that many thai women want to learn english. so, fluency in thai isn't a necessity as long as you know more than, "sawasdee khrup" and can order food, tell the taxi where to go etc.cool, thats me, after a week to scrape the rust off my thai anyway.
a thai girl in bali.
it's such a weird concept to me, it might actually work, at least for awhile. but, in general, unless they are the cosmopolitan type of thai girl who likes to travel and is a bit used to it, i think it might have the same effect as one hears concerning screwed up and lonely tgs wandering around looking for other tgs to eat somtam with in such places as helsinki, or luton.i could just imagine that happening - a thai girl without other thai girls to hang out with? jeeze, sounds kinda depressing, maybe i need to rethink this.
got it - i'll bring 2 thai wives to bali.
English Dan
09-16-05, 07:37
Old Thai Hand, Travelor, Juice - Thanks for taking time to respond to my question. The girl I have been hanging with the past several months has never worked P4P though she worked in a restaurant in Nana ten year ago before marrying a foreigner and moving to USA for a year. He ditched her and left her with child after one year in favor of his latest gf. In fact he used to keep several girls on the side that he financed each month - kind of like mistresses and in some cases outright paid them out for the children he fathered with them. I think he would offer 500,000 and they would reliquish the rights to their babies to him. Not my gf though - she left him and went back to Issan and worked in a fact for 6 years looking after her daughter and has now worked another job the last 2 years. She has never hooked and always made it her priority to look after her daughter and stay close to her family in their small village.
Its true she is not so educated in the traditional sense - but she has great maturity emotionally and might be considered having high "emotional intelligence". She really wants to please me but is not pushy at all. She has never asked for money or hinted at it. Never used her needy daughter as a means to solicit from me. I have seen the copies of marriage certificates from USA, her bank accounts all that stuff. She is very frugal. She does not try to "sweet mouth" me but does believe in our future but speaks in very non aggressive, relaxed ways. I feel no doubts about her being monogamous because of her track record and I have met many people who have known her for many years (people like her sisters farang husbands) who all vouch for her story. I think there is real potential here. I do think that she intrinsically would like to serve me or please me in the sense that she wants to take care of me. I guess its her way of giving herself to me and expressing her love. What I mean is that I think she wants to keep house for me and all that stuff plus please me sexually but I dont think she has considered this with other guys cause she just has not been in a position to meet them (she worked 6 days a week 12 hour shifts) and then looked after her daughter. After being screwed over by her first husband ( who never turned in the paper work on their marriage but cheated on her so many times in their brief marriage) she just did nt want to get hurt. Well I have gone on too long...sorry for that. I appreciate any further feedback from any of you. If you think I need to be asking any other questions or look at things differently, I am open to your thoughts.
Thanks again,
hank
White Monkey
09-18-05, 09:35
Hank, et al.
Finding a Thai mate depends on what you desire and what your background is. For example, if you desire simplicity and are not a conversationalist then a northeast girl with bit of baggage would not be a death sentence. But if you choose to to make a "bargirl" ar a "farmgirl" with a lot of baggage and you could be making the worst mistake of your life.
It also depends on where you reside. I concur with "old thai hand" on the fact that a typical Thai woman (much like a mail-order bride) would be out of place in a foreign land. Of course, well travelled, high society, and those educated abroad excluded as they may adjust well. But the fact is that Thais love family and their home and they will not enjoy being away for too long.
Thailand is a very judgemental society, so if you live here and desire respect then the lass you choose is of utmost importance. The only way to be sure of this is to imbed yourslef in the society and learn the language. Otherwise you cannot undersatnd the nuances and the reasoning behind her culture. I have always heard that communication is the key to any lasting relationship. Well, if she is from "baan nawk" and your Thai is minimal then you already have two strikes against you.
If she is fluent in English (or German or French) then you have to ask...why? And the answer is fairly simple, she had a farang boyfriend. Maybe another negative thing, maybe not. Once you get to the point where you can read a girls background by examining her facial structure and noticing the clothes that she wears then you are headed in the right direction and should be standing on safe ground.
Good luck
Old Thai Hand, Travelor, Juice - Thanks for taking time to respond to my question. The girl I have been hanging with the past several months has never worked P4P though she worked in a restaurant in Nana ten year ago before marrying a foreigner and moving to USA for a year. He ditched her and left her with child after one year in favor of his latest gf. In fact he used to keep several girls on the side that he financed each month - kind of like mistresses and in some cases outright paid them out for the children he fathered with them. I think he would offer 500,000 and they would reliquish the rights to their babies to him. Not my gf though - she left him and went back to Issan and worked in a fact for 6 years looking after her daughter and has now worked another job the last 2 years. She has never hooked and always made it her priority to look after her daughter and stay close to her family in their small village.
Its true she is not so educated in the traditional sense - but she has great maturity emotionally and might be considered having high "emotional intelligence". She really wants to please me but is not pushy at all. She has never asked for money or hinted at it. Never used her needy daughter as a means to solicit from me. I have seen the copies of marriage certificates from USA, her bank accounts all that stuff. She is very frugal. She does not try to "sweet mouth" me but does believe in our future but speaks in very non aggressive, relaxed ways. I feel no doubts about her being monogamous because of her track record and I have met many people who have known her for many years (people like her sisters farang husbands) who all vouch for her story. I think there is real potential here. I do think that she intrinsically would like to serve me or please me in the sense that she wants to take care of me. I guess its her way of giving herself to me and expressing her love. What I mean is that I think she wants to keep house for me and all that stuff plus please me sexually but I dont think she has considered this with other guys cause she just has not been in a position to meet them (she worked 6 days a week 12 hour shifts) and then looked after her daughter. After being screwed over by her first husband ( who never turned in the paper work on their marriage but cheated on her so many times in their brief marriage) she just did nt want to get hurt. Well I have gone on too long...sorry for that. I appreciate any further feedback from any of you. If you think I need to be asking any other questions or look at things differently, I am open to your thoughts.
Thanks again,
hank
Member #2041
09-25-05, 02:13
Where is the best place to find tall -- 5'8" (1.75m), or taller -- stunning Thai ladies???
In the parking lot of the Nana Hotel. Only they might not be "ladies"
English Dan
09-25-05, 02:44
White Monkey
Thanks for your response to my posting. You bring up some interesting thoughts. I feel somewhat challenged in my thinking by a couple of things you said. Let me restate it and reflect.
1. You mentioned that marriage to a farm girl with baggage would not be a problem if I was not much of a conversationalist and wanted simplicity.
Well, the truth is...I am not that simple a person and possessing a graduate degree and doctorate, may at times be guilty of reflecting a little more than with the average guy might. That being said, I have a healthy number of friends that I enjoy deeper conversation with, but do want to talk to my gf or wife (if it goes that far) on some level where there is some mental reflection. In the instance of my gf (the daughter of a farmer), she does not have much formal education. I do have her enrolled in English classes and she is taking some night class/weekend class. But the level of discussion and reflection I have with her that I find stimulating is her whole approach to life. She possesses an emotional maturity that is profoundly stimulating in how interacts with people, problems, family and society. She also is keen to learn. On account of my coming from a Christian faith perspective she has bought a thai bible and begun to read about Christianity and even has her daughter in a Catholic school and talks with her about these things. I am impressed with her willingness to grow and learn more and "become" more.
2. Your second point is, "Thailand is a very judgemental society, so if you live here and desire respect then the lass you choose is of utmost importance. The only way to be sure of this is to imbed yourslef in the society and learn the language. Otherwise you cannot undersatnd the nuances and the reasoning behind her culture. I have always heard that communication is the key to any lasting relationship"
I also think you make a good point here and am somewhat concerned of this as I must confess I do not know the nuances of this culture nor the language.
My gf is also very humble in her approach to life. When she lived in California with her first husband (he owned a company) she went to work in a Thai restaurant to do menial work, just to help out. These folks were not aware that she was married to a prominent business man and initially treated her like crap. Spoke to her as if she was an "illegal" who needed this work to stay on. She never bragged about her status or family "income" because she was more interested in develping some friends. When they discovered who she was, their attitude (the owners) changed significantly and wanted to treat her differently but at that point she had already judged the character of these owners and wished not to establish a rapport with them.
It is also worth noting that when he left her for another woman (Isan girl) my gf never asked for anything. She asked if he would help with the daughter some and on occasion - maybe once every 2 or 3 years he might send $ 500 as a single gift that is used for her school tuition. I have seen her bank book history that verifies this. She went back to Isan to work in a factory for 6000 baht a month rather seek easy street. This girl is really beautiful and cold have made a "killing in bar scene" still could if she wanted. But she was not raised to do that - she says. She is a girl of good morals and values. Does not drink or smoke, but prefers to be home with her daughter rather then go to the club with her sisters. I respect her character. I also respect that she was willing to make a go of it in the US. It was not her fault her first husband left her. So I think she would be willing to go to the US again and try. She claims family would not be a problem in the sense that she would not be requiring to go home every year. But this is of course a big unkown until the rubber meets the road. Furthermore, the other unknown is as u suggest my lack of knowledge of the nuances within the culture. How will the two of us be regarded when people get to know us as a couple given our differences in backgrounds. So far seems to be ok. The ones I have introduced her to have liked her. They have thought she has handled her self with grace. I guess though it will take time to know for sure. She sure is however really trying hard to please me and know my culture, interests and ways. I think these are maybe things we take too much for granted in our relationships to fellow western girls whom we end up not really "fitting in with" at times. I know for me after nearly 20 years of marriage to an american woman her attitude was "my way or the highway" with little sense of compromise let alone seeking to understand and adapt. Well, I have "moaned on" too long here. Thanks for your reflections. I look forward to hearing more of what you say.
Hank
Where is the best place to find tall -- 5'8" (1.75m), or taller -- stunning Thai ladies???Try Casanova Bar at NEP.
You seem to have answered your own question. So what is the problem. Go ahead and marry her. What the future holds, we all wish we knew. So go for it and work hard to make your second marriage a success.
My 2 bahts worth.
White Monkey
09-25-05, 20:03
Hank,
You do seem to be trying to convince yourself that she is the one, and maybe she is. She does seem to have a few things going for her considering her track record (even though she had drawn a few bad cards in life - not her fault). I am sure that her experiences and how she has reacted are partially responsible for this. What we can hope is that she was brought up right by her parents (may seem like bullocks but it is important in Thai society).
Also, remember, that she has nothing to lose and will try to do as much as she can to make you happy. You are her insurance, she she will "ao jai" as much as possible (or give heart). For example, even though she will always be Buddhist she may go to the church with you in order to make you feel happy. She will go to English class to make you proud.
What you need to work on is your Thai and understanding of the culture. It is the only way to cover all of the cross-cultural communication mishaps that may occur.
I too have an education with multiple Master's degrees but I am fluent in Thai. To me I cannot communicate long with a woman who is not educated. Sure sex can be great, etc, but once they begin talking about their interests (comic books and bubble gum pop) I am easily bored and need to move along. This is why I usually leave Northeastern gals off of my radar screen. I know I am stereotyping but I realise that I am this way, so expectation are high.
I look at the follow as my need hierarchy for a Thai mate (based upon level of imporantance in Thai society and my needs, in no particular order):
- quality of rearing by parents
- educational level
- province they are from
- physical appearance
- social level in society (or financial status)
I just hope that it all works out for you!
Good luck
White Monkey
Thanks for your response to my posting. You bring up some interesting thoughts. I feel somewhat challenged in my thinking by a couple of things you said. Let me restate it and reflect.
1. You mentioned that marriage to a farm girl with baggage would not be a problem if I was not much of a conversationalist and wanted simplicity.
Well, the truth is...I am not that simple a person and possessing a graduate degree and doctorate, may at times be guilty of reflecting a little more than with the average guy might. That being said, I have a healthy number of friends that I enjoy deeper conversation with, but do want to talk to my gf or wife (if it goes that far) on some level where there is some mental reflection. In the instance of my gf (the daughter of a farmer), she does not have much formal education. I do have her enrolled in English classes and she is taking some night class/weekend class. But the level of discussion and reflection I have with her that I find stimulating is her whole approach to life. She possesses an emotional maturity that is profoundly stimulating in how interacts with people, problems, family and society. She also is keen to learn. On account of my coming from a Christian faith perspective she has bought a thai bible and begun to read about Christianity and even has her daughter in a Catholic school and talks with her about these things. I am impressed with her willingness to grow and learn more and "become" more.
2. Your second point is, "Thailand is a very judgemental society, so if you live here and desire respect then the lass you choose is of utmost importance. The only way to be sure of this is to imbed yourslef in the society and learn the language. Otherwise you cannot undersatnd the nuances and the reasoning behind her culture. I have always heard that communication is the key to any lasting relationship"
I also think you make a good point here and am somewhat concerned of this as I must confess I do not know the nuances of this culture nor the language.
My gf is also very humble in her approach to life. When she lived in California with her first husband (he owned a company) she went to work in a Thai restaurant to do menial work, just to help out. These folks were not aware that she was married to a prominent business man and initially treated her like crap. Spoke to her as if she was an "illegal" who needed this work to stay on. She never bragged about her status or family "income" because she was more interested in develping some friends. When they discovered who she was, their attitude (the owners) changed significantly and wanted to treat her differently but at that point she had already judged the character of these owners and wished not to establish a rapport with them.
It is also worth noting that when he left her for another woman (Isan girl) my gf never asked for anything. She asked if he would help with the daughter some and on occasion - maybe once every 2 or 3 years he might send $ 500 as a single gift that is used for her school tuition. I have seen her bank book history that verifies this. She went back to Isan to work in a factory for 6000 baht a month rather seek easy street. This girl is really beautiful and cold have made a "killing in bar scene" still could if she wanted. But she was not raised to do that - she says. She is a girl of good morals and values. Does not drink or smoke, but prefers to be home with her daughter rather then go to the club with her sisters. I respect her character. I also respect that she was willing to make a go of it in the US. It was not her fault her first husband left her. So I think she would be willing to go to the US again and try. She claims family would not be a problem in the sense that she would not be requiring to go home every year. But this is of course a big unkown until the rubber meets the road. Furthermore, the other unknown is as u suggest my lack of knowledge of the nuances within the culture. How will the two of us be regarded when people get to know us as a couple given our differences in backgrounds. So far seems to be ok. The ones I have introduced her to have liked her. They have thought she has handled her self with grace. I guess though it will take time to know for sure. She sure is however really trying hard to please me and know my culture, interests and ways. I think these are maybe things we take too much for granted in our relationships to fellow western girls whom we end up not really "fitting in with" at times. I know for me after nearly 20 years of marriage to an american woman her attitude was "my way or the highway" with little sense of compromise let alone seeking to understand and adapt. Well, I have "moaned on" too long here. Thanks for your reflections. I look forward to hearing more of what you say.
Hank
Member #2041
09-25-05, 22:52
Are you a 'gayboy'???
No, but if you are looking for Thai "ladies" who are over 5' 8", I think that you will end up with a ladyboy.
Wow, Rastaman is a real homophobe- and you know what they say about the root of homophobia; feared or latent homosexuality.
Rastaman- relax, and welcome to the forum, sometime people make jokes, just as they do elsewhere. I pity your friends in the real world. And I apologise if you followed my advice and made "the mistake".
Anyway, am tempted to post the irate PM Rastaman sent me.
Member #2041- did you receive similar abuse in your inbox?
One Wing Low
09-26-05, 06:48
Go to Tijuana and enjoy the best chicas of Mexico.
Interesting handle.
Anyway, although an argument could be made for the "nasty" part of your post, but ugly ? I would stack the beauty of the girls at NEP up against the chicas at Zona Norte any day of the week.
But, taste is subjective, to each his own. I live an easy drive away from TJ and would still rather fly acoss the Pacific to monger. There is nothing wrong with you prefering TJ, but there's no need to be nasty about it.
Coma, you come out of the closet ? :)
FD
Coma, you come out of the closet ? :)Only if Rastaman promises to love me long time!
Anyway, am tempted to post the irate PM Rastaman sent me.
CB, you passed on the double dare of 6 weeks ago, so I double dare you again........................:)
CB, you passed on the double dare of 6 weeks ago, so I double dare you again.Okay 1ball- especially for you, the wise and thoughtful words of Rastaman:
Fuck u, cocksucka!!!
Faggy,
Is your cross-eyed pappy still molesting your retarded, 6-year-old sister???
Go back to the World Fags Sex Forum where u came from, pretzel dick!!!!
And 1ball- I didn't pass on the electronic dare, I just haven't got round to it yet. Perhaps I'll insert a remote or cell-phone inside Rastaman. I expect he'd enjoy that.
JuiceSpike
09-26-05, 13:20
Coma,
It looks like you are making new friends privately...:D The "pretzel dick" was very funny. Never heard that expression before.
juice
The "pretzel dick" was very funny. Never heard that expression before.I guess he associates dicks with things he can eat or place in his mouth.
he sounds delightful...............
pretzel dick....hhhmmm, it would have to be very very long, for you to be able to tie it into a pretzel shape. Congrats.
:(
One Wing Low,
"Thai Women are ugly and nasty
Go to Tijuana and enjoy the best chicas of Mexico."
How much they rip you off for?
Sure thing I'm really gonna to enjoy your FR...:D
Member #2041
09-26-05, 18:35
I feel left out - Rastaman didn't feel the desire to send me such a nice e-mail. I'm guessing that's because he actually followed Coma Boy's advice, while mine was such that even Rasta could figure out it was a joke.
My Mongeror friends, I know this topic has been raised here before (by me), still no one came out with a good answer or a comparison, so I once again kindly seek your valubale advsie!. Also, how different are the prices in both places for ST and LT?
Thanks
One Wing Low,
"Thai Women are ugly and nasty
Go to Tijuana and enjoy the best chicas of Mexico."
How much they rip you off for?
Sure thing I'm really gonna to enjoy your FR...:D
I have been to TJ and most of the girls are ugly. $60, or more, for only 30 minutes in a really filthy little room. It will make you sick. Not even close to Thailand!
Go to Tijuana and enjoy the best chicas of Mexico.
You are lucky to find 1 good looking girl there. A lot of 5s and 6s. They get screwed 6 times a night....what is your number? No such thing as LT in Tiajuana. $60 for ST in a room close to garbage can clean.
White Monkey
09-27-05, 20:11
I have sampled them all but am an expert in Viet and Thai (I guess having a few Filipinas as gf's could be considered here too). I'd compare them in the following way (of course the "different strokes for different folks" rule applies here). Keep in mind this is all based on stereotyping and personal taste.
Filipinas. Great bodies and quite good in bed, BUT the Catholic upbringing can make them a bit tentative for some of the more adventurous activities. I call it the shame factor. They can also have personalities that are a bit unsettling. 1,500 to 2,000 pesos and up in Manila BUT service is typically good and it is pleasure before business.
Thais. More accomodating and the range of personalities is from sweet to bitter. The gals from the Northeast can be a bit rough but the Northern Thais are as sweet as a female can get. Prices vary depending upon the venue and province. Provincially you can go from 750 baht for a local gal up to A Northerner in the "superstar" range at a fishbowl of an "ap ob nuat" as much as 4,000 baht. "You get what you pay for" here. Service ranges from overly business like to "it feels like love". Use your intuition when it comes to this, if you feel the vibe then it should be a good time.
Vietnamese. A strange dynamic here. In the north they are beautiful and lighter skinned but harder to find whereas in Central and Southern Vietnam they are in most massage places. Can be totally hot, but there bodies can't compare to the Thai's and Filipinas. They are often a bit less hygenic than the aformentioned and are A LOT MORE concerned about money than pleasing you. At times you have to bargain so much that you lose interest in "doing the do". But sometimes you hit the jackpot and they let you do things them that you'd only dreamed of.
My Mongeror friends, I know this topic has been raised here before (by me), still no one came out with a good answer or a comparison, so I once again kindly seek your valubale advsie!. Also, how different are the prices in both places for ST and LT?
Thanks
Another Jabba loser gets burnt:
http://www.geocities.com/norman_bang/ABOUT_SOONTAREE.html
I really can't help siding with Soontaree when I read the story. After all, the guy must be a total fucking idiot to set up such a web-site.
Plus, his spelling suggests he's either dyslexic or just really fucking thick.
Why would he be proud to share this story? I would feel like such an idiot loser. And then, he went to court with her underwear folded in his pocket as a handkerchief???? Is he fucking nuts? He got burned and he looked for it. I can see where she did wrong (according to his side of the story), but I am sure he did a lot wrong, too. He should have read Private Dancer before getting involved.
Another Jabba loser gets burnt:
http://www.geocities.com/norman_bang/ABOUT_SOONTAREE.html
I really can't help siding with Soontaree when I read the story. After all, the guy must be a total fucking idiot to set up such a web-site.
Plus, his spelling suggests he's either dyslexic or just really fucking thick.
MarcoStraight
10-03-05, 19:36
After all, the guy must be a total fucking idiot to set up such a web-site.
....It's exactly what I think about it.He's not the first he won't be the last...
White Monkey
10-06-05, 17:15
"You are so handsome"........Confessions of a simple mind about his love for Sontaree.
Women are hard enough to understand, you gotta learn about the culture to understand to the ins and outs. No pun intented.
....It's exactly what I think about it.He's not the first he won't be the last...
As I am a complete newbie to Asian Girls. I will spend some days in Phuket.
Asian Girls who doi A-Level and like to get Goldenshowers turn me on very much. But as I know that Asian Girls can be easily upset (losing face.) I don't know what would be the best way to ask them about my dreams.
Any good advice?
Sean_Double
10-08-05, 18:00
Cumsex,
If you're talking to a pro, just ask her up front as part of the negotiation. Chances are that she's heard it before and she'll either say yes or no.
Your dreams may shrink your available talent pool though considerably just like with non asian girls.
Cheers,
Sean
Hot Diggidy Dog
10-11-05, 09:20
In a bar, you let a girl sit with you, buy her a drink, then you tell her what you like. But say "Who should I take home? I want to do blah-blah." She gets lots of social bennies from setting a customer up with someone who'll do what they want.
Just FYI, the older they get, the more likely they'll meet your requirements.
But as I know that Asian Girls can be easily upset (losing face.) I don't know what would be the best way to ask them about my dreams.
Any good advice?
Little Wing
10-11-05, 19:42
I've got a comment/question here. I'm aware that women all over the world stay in abusive relationships, but luckily most of my knowledge of this problem comes from watching movies. I'm wondering if anyone out there has some insight, particularly as it pertains to Thai women.
The Hong Kong TBG who I visit periodically shares a flat with another girl, who habitually has Thai boyfriends. The boyfriend I met a few months ago was very nice and they looked very happy together. I was very pleased to pay for dinner for 4 :) Unfortunately, the latest one is another story entirely. At times he even beats her. Naturally, this situation has my friend rather stressed out.
Now I don't have any illusions that I can do anything to help the situation. But I'm really stuggling to understand the motivation. I'm puzzled why a woman would not only put up with this, but would also support him with her own hard-earned money. It just seems backwards to me. What can she possible be getting out of it?
One thing that interested me, and gives some insight into Thai value systems, was the outrage that my friend expressed. And her outrage wasn't that it was a bad relationship. It was that a woman would give money to her boyfriend ahead of her family :(
Little Wing
Kilmarnock
10-13-05, 03:51
As I am a complete newbie to Asian Girls. I will spend some days in Phuket.
Asian Girls who doi A-Level and like to get Goldenshowers turn me on very much. But as I know that Asian Girls can be easily upset (losing face.) I don't know what would be the best way to ask them about my dreams.
Any good advice?First, there are places that specialize in these things. A check of this board will tell you where those are. That may be your answer there.
But if those places are not your cup or tea (and they are not mine), then I would say mini steps are the way to go. Face would only come into play in front of others. In the privacy of your own home with just the two of you butt naked, face is hardly an issue.
Show here a few videos, warm her up some, and who knows, if she has been in the biz a while, she has probably heard the request before.
If she reacts negatively, don't force it. Move on. There are plenty to choose from. I have found many Thai girls that will absolutely not do anal, which is the same as in pretty much any other country. Some do and some don't. Be flexible and don't make someone do something they are weird about.
As another poster said, age helps too, as does years in the biz. Older means they generaly do more. And most of all, $$$$$ can't hurt.
There is a thread in the Photo section that should be in this one rather, so I post my comments here.
It is perfectly true that Thailand is a very social-aware culture, with a pecking order that links wealth, social acceptability and skin color. However distasteful this might be to Western minds, it is so. And not just in Thailand, mind you.
Now should a Westerner refrain from treating a short-term companion as a temporary girlfriend just because she is visibly from what most Thais would consider low class? Well, it depends.
I would not want to impose on Thai friends or business partners the discomfort of having to deal with the presence of a person who is "the wrong sort". However, if it pleases me to hang about with a girl I enjoy being with, I will certainly do it no matter what, and the general Thai public and shop or restaurant attendants can think what they want.
It also depends on the girl. Some are obviously NEP trash, others are more likely to blend into the general public. And bear in mind two things:
1. Thais will always assume that a Thai girl with a Farang man is some sort of prostitute. The issue with dark-skinned Issan girls is that the Thais will think that it is weird to pick a prostitute that is not attractive to them.
2. Most Western men, even if not strictly sex tourists, have limited access to "normal" girls. They are likely to have to make do with the more acceptable blend of bar-girls or at the very least loose women.
A case in point is my long-standing Thai girlfriend. She is from a rural family in Buriram, but has been living in the big city for several years. It took me a little time and effort to coach her, but I am very comfortable to take her shopping at the Emporium (very occasionally since I do not go there much myself), to go listening to Jazz music at the Sheraton Grande or to eat italian food at Angelini (at the Shangri-La).
Sure, she would still rather eat somtam in the street, but she eats foreigh food adn drinks wine. Now she can tell an Argentinian Chardonnay from a South African Sauvignon. She has impeccable table manners and she dresses in a very appropriate way without further advice from my part.
Her English has improved a lot, and she has travelled to other Asian countries and even to Europe. Recently, she has picked up golf lessons when I did, and now her swing is better than mine!
She blended effortlessly with my Farang friends, who have complimented me (and her) for her good looks and social skills.
I have no illusion that most Thais see only the Isaan girl in her, and I have to factor that in what I can do with her or not. I rely a lot on her own judgement and always ask her whether she will feel comfortable going places with me.
What I see in her is a great companion and a most enjoyable person to spend my time in Thailand with. There is no doubt that I could get all that (and possibly more) from a lighter-skinned girl who would be more acceptable from the Thai wiewpoint, but at this point I am quite content with what I have.
I hope that nobody thinks I am a poor ambassador of the Farang culture. Quite the contrary I have the weakness to believe.
Taz Marine
10-16-05, 18:49
After reading Old Thai Hand’s first post I can understand his point of view. I’ve only been to Thailand once so I don’t have a lot experience and a true understand of Thai people. What it seems like OTH is trying to say is because of the stereotyping Thais are making of farangs that are out enjoying their time with an ugly Thai girl it is harder for him to live there and get respect from the locals because he is farang as well.
If the Thais are subtle about their feelings, why worry about what the Thais off the street think of you. The people you deal with everyday should know you better and not stereotype you like the rest.
I think I could be a little more conservative when I go out with the girls but as long as we are dressed nice, not showing public affection, and just having a good time it’s not hurting the farangs that have to live and work in LOS. I may be missing something but Seydlitz and Jessejames seem to have the same opinion I do and both had some good posts on this topic.
Taz
Seydlitz,
I find the use of the little phrase "long-standing" rather amusing:).
I guess it is as they used to say in the Old West: stand by your man (and make sure he has a stand by you...)
Seydlitz,
I find the use of the little phrase "long-standing" rather amusing:).
It is true that in most Asian countries the fair skinned ones are considered more desirable than the dark, even though they may be the ugliest looking one. Although, IMHO that is stupid, but then again it is a fact of life.
I think what most punters, including OTH, are referring to is not the darkness of the skin but the sophistication of the bar girls. Compared to the city bred and fashionable ones, these BGs never had the education to talk and behave in an upscale manner.
It is a taboo to walk hand in hand with a woman. So if one sees a white farang with a girl walking hand in hand, not dressed well and coarse language, it is of course looked down upon. It would happen in most Asian countries not just LOS.
On the other hand a brown skinned farang like me have no problem because I am particular about the girl looking decent and well mannered if I am going to take her out in the public. I also detest walking hand in hand with the girl, because to me that shows insecurity and desperation on the man's part.
That is my 2B worth.
BTW, for those questioning white farang and brown farang, the word farang means foreigner and that applies to all regardless of the color of skin.
Duni
… and six more weeks to go.
Old Thai Hand
10-17-05, 01:17
Seydlitz
Good report. I've moved here as well because it is really the place for this debate.
Your comment concerning western men's limited access to "normal" Thai girls is I supposed true, especially if they are visitors here, even if frequent. If you live and work here and are more immersed in the culture, as I am, chances are much better at accessing Thai women from all walks of life. But, for the average Farang, it is very difficult to get anything but the sort of women to which you refer.
You are also correct that the average Thai will assume that any girl with a Farang is some sort of prostitute, or at least easy girl. I think this is less-likely though if she at least looks and acts in a respectable manner. It also depends on where you are. Certainly shop-keepers and the like would assume this, unless the girl is very obviously NOT a bar-girl type; ie: white-skinned Thai-Chinese. However, this is not the typical scenario one encounters with any but somewhat well-connected Farang.
I also tend to think that there are over-generalizations made about Isaan women, especially those that are dark-skinned. I'm probably as guilty of this as others. The truth is that many women in Isaan are middle class or higher and have education and money. Even women from poor backgrounds in Isaan, or Thailand generally manage to somehow get an education and a good job. One of my best friends is a 30 year old woman from a poor farm family in Chaiyapum who has a BA, is an executive secretary and owns a million baht condo. The co-ordinator for a special government program on which I work is from Amnat Charoen, about as far up-country Isaan as you can get. Her family are fairly wealthy and own businesses and numerous houses there. I might add that she is dark-skinned and has a Farang boyfriend. She has told me that people just assume she's a BG until she speaks. Then, they can tell by her Thai accent that she's well-educated and at least is HiSo girl by Isaan standards.
I tend towards white-skinned girls, personally. But, I don't have any prejudice against "normal" Isaan girls especially if they meet my "spec" as the Thais say. One of the current objects of my attention is a not exactly white-skinned, but not dark either girl from Roi-et. She's smart, well-educated (Maejo University in Chiang Mai) and extremely polite, charming and graceful. It is very evident to anyone, including Thais that she is not a BG or even a loose woman by how she carries herself and how she speaks. I suspect that Seydlitz's GF is similar in that she acts like a Thai woman is expected to act and therefore is looked upon in an approving manner by Thais and others. But, isn' this true of anyone in any culture? Good behavior is good behavior and inappropriate behavior is just that and is frowned upon no matter where you are.
As for my ambassador comment: I'm sure Seydlitz you are indeed that. You've PM'ed me on occasion and come across as an intelligent thoughtful person. When I made that comment, I was referring to the idea that as visitors or guests here we have an opportunity to show the best face of our cultures and upbringing by showing respect to our hosts by acting in a manner which is acceptable to them in their country. Some of the more obtuse interpretations of my "ambassoador" comment reflect the ignorance of the writers and clearly illustrate my point that there are those that will behave as they want, regardless of whether it offends Thais and their culture.
Taz Marine
10-17-05, 01:29
There's a place in Thailand where you can easily walk around hand by hand with any chick you want : Pattaya.
I would never ever walked around Bangkok hand by hand with an Isaan girl .Not a skin's problem, most of the time these girls act and speak in a.. not very polite way = aka dirty laotian slang enriched of bad,bad words. :o .We don't need to be ambassador of western culture just don't let thai people thinks farangs are 'Baa' or 'My dee' . Plus,going out with an hooker in Bangkok spending money for her in front of regular low/high class workers who get an average salary of 3 / 10 thousand bath a month is not a good way to 'earn' respect by people everywhere in the world, thai,western,asian..whoever.
Peace.Good post MarcoStraight, this makes a little more sense to me than the way OTH explained it. Thanks.
Tazz Marine
What 'White Monkey' is getting at is that, while it's all well and good that you are having fun with your 'ho' going shopping etc., you are also reflecting badly on all Farang in general. Thais won't give you a "dirty look" because they are subtle about how they actually feel. But, because of your kind of behavior and the behavior of many others with their rent-a-dates, Thai think all Farang like dark-skinned, prostitutes and have no class or taste. I know it's your holiday and you want to enjoy "your time in LOS". But, you are also an ambassador for western culture when you are here and should act accordingly. Afterall, some of us have to live here and it's hard enough, sometimes getting respect from Thais without Farang guys walking around arm-in-arm with some skanky, ignorant, brown-skinned hooker from Nakhon Nowhere, Isaan. Thais always ask me why Farang like ugly, dark-skinned Isaan girls. I tell them only sex-tourists, who don't know any better go for those kind of girls. Still, it doesn't help the situation when areas outside of Nana are invaded by men and their skanks displaying what is simply inapproproate behavior in this culture. If you want a GFE, don't go to Emporium, don't go to World Trade Center, don't go to MBK, don't go to Siam Discovery. Most of these girls would never be in such places if not for some moron Farang taking them there. So, they simply look out of place and you in turn look bad to all the Thais, which means all Farang look bad. Stay around Nana where it is at least tolerated, if not appreciated. Better, yet, stay in your hotel room, order room service, fuck the shit out of her and then send her packing.
Seydlitz, I have been coming to Thailand for sixteen years and living here during the last four years, your report correctly sums up the Thai attitude correctly and accurately. I read OTH reports and have to laugh that he incorrectly believes that Thai’s will accept you into their culture and as part of their society. Because of their devout Nationalism, this will never happen and at best you as a foreigner will be tolerated and exploited as in having to paid double fare for Thailand such as entrance to national parks, zoo and baht buses in Pattatya.
So the question remains: Why should you give a shit what Thai’s think and why should try to impress them with behavior to appear like you are some ambassador to your home country? Well for one, if my home country were paying me to be their ambassador then I would be more concerned on making sure my behavior was up to what was expected from them, but since in fact they are not, I will behave as I see fit.
Two, from what I read of OTH reports, he is a high-level university teacher and he needs to be concerned about what the Thai’s think of him as one bad move could cost him his job. Thankfully, I run a small company here that does not have to deal with Thai’s as customers. Since all my Thai business transactions have me as the customer and them as the vendor, they tend to give me the Thai smile no matter what my behavior. It is funny when you are the guy paying the money to Thai’s instead of one accepting money from them, how they become more accepting of your behavior. Yes, I know it is fake, but like the scene in “Pretty Woman” it is comical to watch this money fawning.
Third, in Thai culture they do not give a shit themselves what other people think. Many Hi-so Thai’s make no qualms about cutting into a line of people at the local store because in their mind everybody else is below their social statue and deserve to wait. They view everybody in line is outside of thier sphere of influence and thus do not care. Now if someone happened to be in line that knows them, they would quickly save face and apologize. Is this appropriate behavior? To me it is not, to them it is.
So in conclusion, why do you need to alter your behavior to suite a country whose own behavior is abominable?
As you stated Seydlitz, ” However, if it pleases me to hang about with a girl I enjoy being with, I will certainly do it no matter what, and the general Thai public and shop or restaurant attendants can think what they want.”
Correct, screw them and their phony façade.
I would hate to be in the position of OTH where you have to walk on eggshells and constantly be kissing Thai ass to ensure you have a job.
Now I too have a long-term girlfriend from Surin who has lived in Bangkok for ten years. She is now twenty-six years old. She is not dark brown, but has skin color the same as tea with milk. She speaks good English and is university educated. She has not been back to Surin since she moved to Bangkok as she finds it very boring and despises the country life.
However, despite the darker skin color, she gets equally hit on by both Thai’s and foreigners up to the point where several Thai males stop their BMW’s or Mercedes to offer her a ride while she is waiting for a taxi. She did have a previous long time Thai boyfriend (Six years) who tried to get her to change into the “Thai” preferred model. This included going to skin whitening clinics and taking pills to make her fatter (She is skinny like a model) and asking her to have breast enhancement surgery (She did not).
All of this elevating of the white skin look through the Thai culture has given her a bit of a inferiority complex. When she points out one of these preferred Thai “models” I ask her to go over and take a pulse of the girl to make sure she is still alive.
She appreciates that I like the way she is. She already had good fashion sense and would not be caught dead wearing T shirts or donning animal purses and teddy bear phone covers. Thank God, I think many of the Bangkok university girls need to grow up!
I have expressed my concern that if Thai’s see us holding hands in public they will automatically assume that she is a prostitute. She basically said she does not care what they think of her as she does not need to impress them and that this is normal Thai boyfriend/girlfriend behavior and it makes her feel good.
As OTH correctly states: “This is about not trying to impose our values or beliefs, but about blending into the culture; a culture that is patriarchal, hierarchical and judgmental.”
In my opinion, why should I lower my standards to blend into a culture that is patriarchal, hierarchical and judgmental?
So if my behavior offends some Thai’s and make it difficult for some foreigners to get in their good graces well so be it. It is actually the Thai way not to be too concerned for people who have no affect on your own social/professional circle and it will just mean more ass kissing that the foreigner who requires Thai acceptance needs to do, but they are used to it.
It is true that in most Asian countries the fair skinned ones are considered more desirable than the dark, even though they may be the ugliest looking one. Although, IMHO that is stupid, but then again it is a fact of life.
It is a taboo to walk hand in hand with a woman. So if one sees a white farang with a girl walking hand in hand, not dressed well and coarse language, it is of course looked down upon. It would happen in most Asian countries not just LOS.
On the other hand a brown skinned farang like me have no problem because I am particular about the girl looking decent and well mannered if I am going to take her out in the public. I also detest walking hand in hand with the girl, because to me that shows insecurity and desperation on the man's part.
BTW, for those questioning white farang and brown farang, the word farang means foreigner and that applies to all regardless of the color of skin.
Duni
… and six more weeks to go.Well it is my opinion times are changing. In modern times, hand holding is definitely acceptable. I see throughout the Thai younger and middle age groups within the metropolis area. I also see it in Singapore and in Japan. It is still taboo in the country areas, but these folks are still living behind the times.
Personally I do not care, but I think it is desired by the girl as her territorial statement to say “hands off” to other females.
Regarding the ongoing brown girl debate, think of it this way: it wouldn't be appropriate to take your country's equivalent of a Nana girl to your country's equivalent of Gaysorn.
White-Monkey, OTH, et al. were not expressing racial prejudice, that can be left to the Thais.
For those questioning white farang and brown farang, the word farang means foreigner and that applies to all regardless of the colour of skin.Actually the term "Farang" refers to Caucasians.
Generally brown-skinned foriegners will be referred to simply as Kohn India, or Kohn Arab (and Arab women in full-dress as "Penguins").
The derogatory term- "Kek" is also very commonly used for Indians/Arabs.
The word for foreigner, regardless of skin-colour, would be "Kohn Dang Chard", but it is not often used.
My 2 cents. Can't speak much about the case of Dark-Skinned Thai's, but as an African-American, we are taught things like, the devil is black(image), Jesus is white (poor image looks more Italian than Jewish), black as sin, pure as white, classic music & dance is european/nordic, world music is etc, Africa is a land of starving, lazy, dirty, violent, ape-like people, beauty means straight face, light skin and hair, etc.
If a person of white pigmented skin feels that they are superior because of these lies, they actually end up with a false sense of self-worth and ego. They also become ignorant human beings. A person of higher pigmentation will likewise live with a false sense of self-worth, thus the bleaching and lack of self-identity.
There's so much discrimnation within this world that we tend to think that light skin is beautiful and dark skin is not. When-the-fuck are we as a society going to realize the color of our skin should'nt reflect our inner self?
I see it sometimes, every day,some of my males friends perfer to date only light skin girls because they simply think that lighter is better. I think alot of African Americans and well as the Darker skined Thai's have been brain washed by society. There are enough problems dealing with being discrimated on by other races,so why add to the ignorance?
Hamilton W
10-17-05, 15:09
There are enough problems dealing with being discrimated on by other races,so why add to the ignorance?MeatMan,
Very well said. Many forms of discrimination are occuring all over Thailand including age, race, skin-color, facial features, hierarchy, and more.
We should be expected to set higher standards and avoid such generalizations and stereotypes coming from more developed and progressive regions of the world.
Meatman,
We just don't get it, do we:(?
LittleBigMan
10-17-05, 20:18
I read this somewhere before but of course when you are trying to find something you just can't! but I read that Farang originally was used to identify a person that is French.
LBM
Al Cualquiera
10-18-05, 02:26
Selectively embracing those local values that exist along the continuum of racism, class prejudice, and snobbery is of course your choice.
But at home do you embrace prejudice against people of color, anti-Semitism, and class prejudice and say "Hey, it's part of my culture."?
Grow some balls.
Old Thai Hand
10-18-05, 03:34
The general consensus is that Farang comes from Farang-set which means French in Thai and is a bastardization of the French word "Francais" meaning French. Basically it is how the Thais heard the word "Francais" when spoken by the French when they first came to Thailand in the 16th century.
The negative connotation that Farang sometimes has is derived from the fact that the French tried to invade Thailand in the 18th century and before being driven out committed a number of attrocities against the population.
The word "Khaek" is used to refer primarily to anyone who looks even remotely Indian or Arabic and means "guest". I'm not going to explain why it generally has a negative connotation because I don't want to get flamed. Let's just say that Thais don't really like Indians and Arabs very much and leave it at that.
But, many don't like Farang either.
Seydlitz,
I have been coming to Thailand for sixteen years and living here during the last four years, your post correctly sums up the Thai attitude correctly and accurately. I read OTH posts and have to laugh that he incorrectly believes that Thai’s will accept you into their culture and as part of their society. Because of their devout Nationalism, this will never happen and at best you as a foreigner will be tolerated and exploited as in having to paid double fare for Thailand such as entrance to national parks, zoo and baht buses in Pattatya.
So the question remains: Why should you give a shit what Thai’s think and why should try to impress them with behavior to appear like you are some ambassador to your home country? Well for one, if my home country were paying me to be their ambassador then I would be more concerned on making sure my behavior was up to what was expected from them, but since in fact they are not, I will behave as I see fit.
Two, from what I read of OTH posts, he is a high-level university teacher and he needs to be concerned about what the Thai’s think of him as one bad move could cost him his job. Thankfully, I run a small company here that does not have to deal with Thai’s as customers. Since all my Thai business transactions have me as the customer and them as the vendor, they tend to give me the Thai smile no matter what my behavior. It is funny when you are the guy paying the money to Thai’s instead of one accepting money from them, how they become more accepting of your behavior. Yes, I know it is fake, but like the scene in “Pretty Woman” it is comical to watch this money fawning.
Third, in Thai culture they do not give a shit themselves what other people think. Many Hi-so Thai’s make no qualms about cutting into a line of people at the local store because in their mind everybody else is below their social statue and deserve to wait. They view everybody in line outside of the sphere of influence and thus do not care. Now if someone happened to be in line that knows them, they would quickly save face and apologize. Is this appropriate behavior? To me it is not, to them it is.
So in conclusion, why do you need to alter your behavior to suite a country whose own behavior is abominable?
As you stated Seydlitz, ” However, if it pleases me to hang about with a girl I enjoy being with, I will certainly do it no matter what, and the general Thai public and shop or restaurant attendants can think what they want.”
Correct, screw them and their phony façade.
I would hate to be in the position of OTH where you have to walk on eggshells and constantly be kissing Thai ass to ensure you have a job.
Now I too have a long-term girlfriend from Surin who has lived in Bangkok for ten years. She is now twenty-six years old. She is not dark brown, but has skin color the same as tea with milk. She speaks good English and is university educated. She has not been back to Surin since she moved to Bangkok as she finds it very boring and despises the country life.
However, despite the darker skin color, she gets equally hit on by both Thai’s and foreigners up to the point where several Thai males stop their BMW’s or Mercedes to offer her a ride while she is waiting for a taxi. She did have a previous long time Thai boyfriend (Six years) who tried to get her to change into the “Thai” preferred model. This included going to skin whitening clinics and taking pills to make her fatter (She is skinny like a model) and asking her to have breast enhancement surgery (She did not).
All of this elevating of the white skin look through the Thai culture has given her a bit of a inferiority complex. When she points out one of these preferred Thai “models” I ask her to go over and take a pulse of the girl to make sure she is still alive.
She appreciates that I like the way she is. She already had good fashion sense and would not be caught dead wearing T shirts or donning animal purses and teddy bear phone covers. Thank God, I think many of the Bangkok university girls need to grow up!
I have expressed my concern that if Thai’s see us holding hands in public they will automatically assume that she is a prostitute. She basically said she does not care what they think of her as she does not need to impress them and that this is normal Thai boyfriend/girlfriend behavior and it makes her feel good.
As OTH correctly states: “This is about not trying to impose our values or beliefs, but about blending into the culture; a culture that is patriarchal, hierarchical and judgmental.”
In my opinion, why should I lower my standards to blend into a culture that is patriarchal, hierarchical and judgmental?
So if my behavior offends some Thai’s and make it difficult for some foreigners to get in their good graces well so be it. It is actually the Thai way not to be too concerned for people who have no affect on your own social/professional circle and it will just mean more ass kissing that the foreigner who requires Thai acceptance needs to do, but they are used to it.
I just want to thank everyone who is posting on this thread as it is very informative, interesting, and is a real learning experience for me. It is also great to read all the points of view without it turning into a heated non sense debate.
Blacklisted
10-18-05, 05:10
I'm an ambassador!
I:
~Fuck ho's, (and take them out to dinner if I like)
~Drink Thai whiskey and get stupidly fucked up,
~Choof ganj,
~and generally run amuck!
That's what holidays are all about!
If that upsets your little life, well, what can I say! Tough shit!
Sean_Double
10-18-05, 06:20
OTH,
This is a minor point; just something I find interesting. I doubt that the word farang actually came into the Thai lexicon from hearing French people say where they were from. The word "farang" and its derivitaves had been around a long time before a Frenchman ever set foot in Assam and its likely that it came into the area from arab or Indian traders.
Here's an example of how widespread the word is:
"frangos" ("Westerner") - Greek
"ifrangi" - Greek ("Latins (Catholics)", Turkish, Arabic
"frang" "a European" and "frangiya" "The Country of the Franks; Western
Europe; Latin language or church" - Syriac, the classical Aramaic
(Semitic) language used in some Middle Eastern Christian churches,
"afrangui" - In Arabic (in Egypt and in some North African countries)
"ifranji" or "franji" - Arabic dialects
"faranji" - Arabic, "farangi" - Egyptian
"ifranji" (nom masculin singulier, "ifranj" or "ifranjiyine" au pluriel -
Arabic "ifranji (pl., more precisely collective) "ifranj" 'European',
"firanja" "Land of the Franks, Europe" - Modern Standard Arabic
"afrang,faranj, ferang, ferangi" - Modern Persian
"feringhi" - Persian
"farengi, farangi, pirangi" (Tamil version) etc.- Dravidian in India
"farangi" - Malayalam (borrowed from Portuguese in 16th century)
"farang" ("Westerner") in Thai
"barang" - Cambodian
"farang" - Thai from Persian "farangg" in 16th century(?)
"pha-rang", "pha-lang-xa" - formerly Vietnamese
"barang" - Bahasa Indonesia (reduplicated) "goods", "stuff" things such as
might be brought by traders
"paalagi/papalangi/vaalagi/papa-'aa" - Samoan "
I stole the quote from a different, non sexually oriented site. I've always sort of wondered about the word because I lived in Egypt for a while and the Egyptian pronunciation is identical to the Thai version; Egyptian "j's" are pronounced as "g's" and they don't include the "i".
Cheers,
Sean
BTW, Nice job on the dark skin issue. When I first started reading your posts
I was initially sort of pissed off and figured that you were sort of pandering to hi/so Thai prejudices, but I reread them a couple of times and saw that you weren't at all.
S_D
You probably read the same site I did. The word farang I believe is a derivative of the Hindi word Firangi, which referred to outsiders specifically westerners. That being that India was invaded from the west and never from the east.
Originally, there was no connotation to it being a white foreigner but was applied to all (portugese, spaniards included). Indians were one of the first traders with Siam, and the word was most likely adapted from them. However, somewhere down the line the word came to be referred to White Caucasians only, in Thailand. I have no idea why that came about, but maybe there is someone who has info on this.
Anyway, from where I come from originally, the word farang (firangi) was referred to all foreigners, and that's why I referred to as brown and white farang.
End of disussion from my side. :D
Crazy4Thai
10-18-05, 08:03
As I followed this thread here from the Photo section, I was going to weigh in. I'll just chime in with Thaid Up.
"In my opinion, why should I lower my standards to blend into a culture that is patriarchal, hierarchical and judgmental?"
And add racist to that list of adjectives, whether those living in los can see it for what it is or not.
If slavery were the norm in Thailand, would the culturally knowledgable expats endorse that too?
Old Thai Hand
10-18-05, 09:54
sean double and duniawala
agreed. yours are both the likely origins. the one i stated is the most popular belief among thais. i believe however that all those derivatives stated in both your posts are the true origins....but, far too in-depth to explain to thais. they like to put a simple cause and effect spin on it...ie. the french invaded us, raped and pillaged, we drove them out...farang are bad.
tripper in town
judging by your simple-minded, hedonistic post, you're a low-life scum. stay home. we don't need you or your money here.
Ralph Kramden
10-18-05, 14:14
Tripper In Town
Don't forget to bring your flimsy flip-flops, dirty t-shirts with dried ketchup drool, ill-fitting checked-bermuda shorts, and of course, your enormous beer belly, and you should fit right in with the others ambassadors of your ilk.
White Monkey
10-18-05, 16:53
It is unfortunate that stereotyping, racism and prejudice are a part of every culture. This darkskin and whiteskin thang has gotten way outta hand. Can' we all just get along.
I echo the thoughts of CB and OTH, things are made worse for all non-Thais when tourists and/or expats are culturally insensitive. And walking into Emporium with a darkskinned, bowlegged gal, who wears ill matched clothing is an example of insensitivty to her and to her culture. She feels out of place, you look like someone that is being taken for a ride and all of those around her knows she is for sale because of the above mentioned cues as well as her posture, her style of walking and the shape of her feet and face. Other giveaways are your muscle tee's, shorts, and sandals with socks. I have many friends that agree an entrance fee should be charged for tourists of this flavor, 200 baht to get your bargal into the mall.
The point is that people are attracted to different thangs. I am not attracted to Isaan gals for the same reason that I don't like the religious right as they are stereotypically uneducated and I have nothing to talk to them about. There are other reasons too, like I don't like the way they look, but hey that it a preference. I am secretly happy that so many of you can't speak Thai not understand the culture so as you can pursue these "farmgals" and look silly on yer own. Me I need a gal that I can have a conversation with as well I can enjoy walking alongside of her and the gracefulnessnd of a great bum.
Old Thai Hand
10-18-05, 17:58
Thaid Up
A thoughtful and very well-written opposing opinion. You make many good points in your argument.
But, I don't really have to kiss ass, or suck up, so much as just garner a level of respect from the people with whom I work. But, perhaps that amounts to the same thing. I don't BTW, have to walk on egg-shells, nor will one wrong move cost me my job. I am, I guess a somewhat better positioned university professor. But, that isn't really where issues of status and behavior really come into play so much because that's only my part-time job. It's my main job about which I can't talk that requires perhaps considerably more decorum than the average Farang is required to display. It is this job, that gives me cache and entrance into Thai society. But, you are right, for most Farang, except those who speak Thai and are better situated within the culture, complete acceptance into the society is not likely. Many Thais, especially the self-styled HiSo Thais tend to think of us as barbarians most of the time.
My ex-GF from Roi-et of whom I spoke before, was much like your GF in that she didn't give a damn what people thought and insisted on holding my hand in public. Despite her humble background, she universally earned and received respect from everyone including people much higher than her in status because of her intelligence, and her very evident old-Thai grace and charm.
I've had HiSo Thai GFs who I hated because of the way they acted and LoSo girls that were the best people I ever knew. I am going that route again because I think that a regular Thai girl from a modest background is just a far better companion and mate than the spoiled little rich, albeit stunningly beautiful white-skinned Thai-Chinese girls. The high maintenance cost of a lot of these girls is never offset by their beauty.
Do I hate the hypocritical way many so-called HiSo Thais behave? Absolutely! But, I'm not here to educate them in proper and civilized behavior because that would be a losing proposition. Also, like anywhere else, there are HiSo and then there are the real HiSo. New money HiSo Thais like the crass and boorish prime minister who most real HiSo Thais view as a class-less upstart are the main perpetrators of the terrible behavior that people witness on a daily basis from the cutting in in traffic with their uniform silver or black Mercedes to the corruption that exists everywhere from the government on down.
The relatively smaller group of true HiSo Thais, (the old money and old families) are for the most part quite nice, and unassuming people. They don't need to put on a show because they've always had it to flaunt. So, they don't. The new-money Thai-Chinese like the Shiniwatra clan come from humble beginnings in China and like to show they've made it in their adopted country. An interesting illustration of the real status of Thaksin is the fact that although he has a country house down in the Cha-am/Hua Hin area near the King's Summer Palace (and current permanent residence), he is not in the pecking order of influential Thai families, whose summer houses are arranged in order of status near the palace; the most prestigious family's house being right next to the palace grounds and next to them the 2nd family and so forth. I BTW once rented a townhouse from the Third family, the Lumsam family on the grounds of their summer house, when I lived in Hua Hin and I used to joke that I lived closer to the King than Thaksin did.
You are right that Thais generally don't care about anything that doesn't affect them directly. Also, they often have short attention spans. So, they will most likely forget much of what they witness, be it unsuitable behavior from Farang or their fellow Thais. I most certainly get more hot and bothered about affronts to Thai culture than they often do. Sometimes, I need to laugh at myself over this.
Finally, I write about all of this to inform, from my perspective as one Farang who has been here long enough to know certain things and who has access to certain areas of the culture that most Farang do not. Since, I am out of the loop as it were in terms of the P4P world, I tend to forget that some of what I write is basically irrelevant and unimportant to a vast number of the readers of this forum. I write mainly for those who are interested in the turf outside of the common ground on which most Farang walk.
Does somebody really needs escorts in BKK ???? There is soooo much out there. BTW which escort agencies have good raputation and high class ladies.
BTW Old Thai Hand, I really like your writing and posts.
Blacklisted
10-19-05, 08:19
Tripper in Town
Judging by your simple-minded, hedonistic post, you're a low-life scum. Stay home. We don't need you or your money here.[/QUOTE]
Ha ha ha, and you are the shit on the low life scums flip flops!
Old Thai Hand
10-19-05, 15:03
Tripper
Thanks for proving my point with your infantile post.
Ladies, since Domino being given the boot, this board has become nearly civilised. It has been quite a treat. Can we please keep it that way?
thank you so much.
Up yours FD, you toothless bastard.
I got teeth ! They're just not the original equipment.
Sorry guys. This isn't a chatroom. Later.
Sean_Double
10-20-05, 04:27
Tripper,
You're being ripped off if your last two posts aren't put in the new "Reports of Distinction" thread. It'd be a shame if you're thoughtful and well spoken words were just lost among other posts.
Party On Dude!
Chok dee maak, bai hai pun.
Cheers,
Sean
Blacklisted
10-20-05, 07:54
It's rare that I've exhibited such insightful and meaningful responses to such intellectual heavyweights as the old thai hand.
I must admit defeat however, and the next time I visit I'll be sure to follow his words of wisdom and refrain from parading around with any local ladies, but merely shag them in hotel rooms and usher them out under the cloak of darkness.
Just so I don't cause a loss of face for the farangs living in Thai. Because we wouldn't want that.
We must be ambassadors of the western way of life!
Anyway, I won't clutter up this board with any more pointless drivel, that job has already been well filled!
Al Cualquiera
10-20-05, 08:27
"Judging by your simple-minded, hedonistic post, you're a low-life scum. Stay home. We don't need you or your money here."
Yes, we don't like hedonists here at the InternationalSexGuide forum.
White Monkey
10-22-05, 05:27
Most of us are delighted that you have come to your senses and stopped focusing on what is stuck on the bottom of your flip flops...besides we don't show the sole of our shoes here in the Kingdom.
The ambassador of the western world thing is where the line needs to be drawn though. I would appreciate leaving that one at home because it is that way of thinking that is precisely the problem. The import of a Hollwood, war mongering, and cultural imperialism is making the whole earth shake, rattle and roll. Oh yeah you used "drivel" and are probably safe, for a moment I feared that you must be ..... one of "them"
It's rare that I've exhibited such insightful and meaningful responses to such intellectual heavyweights as the old thai hand.
I must admit defeat however, and the next time I visit I'll be sure to follow his words of wisdom and refrain from parading around with any local ladies, but merely shag them in hotel rooms and usher them out under the cloak of darkness.
Just so I don't cause a loss of face for the farangs living in Thai. Because we wouldn't want that.
We must be ambassadors of the western way of life!
Anyway, I won't clutter up this board with any more pointless drivel, that job has already been well filled!
Terry Terrier
10-26-05, 02:52
Most of us farang (including the 'upper-middle class' ones) are only two - four generations beyond working on farms/down coal mines/ in asbestos-polluted factories/etc. Most of the people we will encouter in Thailand (including the 'upper middle-class' ones) will be no more than two generations beyond working in paddy fields and such-like.
The best tourists (ambassadors?) anywhere are the ones who spend money, and spend it politely. On what we spend it and with whom we spend it is the business only of ourselves and local LEA. Anybody else, either local or expat, who does not respect this deserves to be treated with the polite condescension that they have merited.
OTH
Your insights into, and opinions on middle-class Thai society make interesting, if off-topic reading. Now we know what nouveau-riche, bleached-skinned Bangkokers' prejudices are about dark-skinned, lower-class people from the North-East, and other silliness. But when informing us about this racist crap, could you please be less ambiguous about your own position? As has been pointed out to you in the past by Joe Zop, you may be painting the wrong picture of Thailand with the more impressionable readers of this forum.
Old Thai Hand
10-26-05, 09:36
Terry
To clarify:
My Position on ("racism") in Thailand: ( I actually edited this after I posted the first time because I let myself fall into the use of the word "racism" as used by you and a number of other posters. It is simply not appropriate.)
I am against the condescending (a better word) attitudes that are displayed by most white-skinned HiSo Bangkok Chinese-Thais towards any Thai, dark-skinned or otherwise that they deem inferior to them. Some of these HiSo Thais, especially the previously mentioned nouveau riche are snobby scum who have money, but no real class. They are as you've so aptly put it in your general reference, not all that far removed from humble origins. But, they do seem to have forgotten that. However, it's not for me to go against the tide and try to educate them in our obviously superior Western attitudes about class distinctions (tongue firmly placed in cheek), since I have to work with these people on a daily basis.
As I've stated before, the word "racist" is simply wrong in this context. This is an issue of status, not racism. It is also an issue of what is deemed beautiful in a given culture. In Asian cultures, not just Thailand, white skin is considered beautiful, dark skin isn't. It's not a matter of race, but a matter of aesthetics. Personally, I still have some trouble figuring out what the demarcation line is between dark and not dark. I have a friend who uses the benchmark of "if their heels and palms are noticeably lighter than the rest of them, they're too dark".
I still feel, however as many others have expressed as well that it sends the wrong message about Farang in general when certain Farang parade their Isaan "Ho's" through Emporium and rub the girl's lovely brown skin in these people's faces. This remark presents a bit of dichotomy, I suppose and could lead one to assume that I have an ambiguous stance on things. But, Thailand and Thais are ambiguous and contradictory and one becomes like them if one stays here long enough.
BTW...
Your comment "Bleach-skinned Bangkokers" is erroneous unless you are talking about dark-skinned girls who want to be white-skin girls. Thai-Chinese are naturally white skinned. It's very easy to tell someone who has done it chemically and someone that is naturally that way.
My preferences (not that anyone should care, but here we go):
As I've stated quite clearly many times, my #1 preference is white-skinned Thai girls, preferably middle class because they seem to combine all the best qualities of Thai women without being prima-donas like HisSo girls or desparate psychos like many LoSo girls. The white-skinned girls don't have to be Thai-Chinese, but I do like that look above all others and think they are the most beautiful Thai women.
However, I also have a very strong liking for dark-skinned southern Thai girls who I think are quite striking and exotic because of the mix of Thai, Malay and Indian.
Generally, I don't like Isaan girls from south Isaan (Buriram, Surin, Ubon Ratchathani etc.) because like most Thais I think they are ugly. Nor do I like Isaan girls from Udon Thani because every UT girl I have ever met was an obssessive, psycho nut-case. I do however like some Isaan girls from Roi-et, Kalasin, Yasothon, Nong Khai, Nakhon Phanom and Mukdahan because they tend to be the most beautiful in Isaan and in the case especially of Nakhom Phanom and Mukdahan have white skin because of the mix of Chinese and Vietnamese blood with the Thai.
One of my very first students was a stunning 17-year old girl from Mukdahan whose mother was half-Vietnamese. To this day and after 1,000s of Thai students, she still remains one of the most beautiful Thai women I have ever known. She had the hots for me, as I was much younger and quite presentable in those days. The first day of classes, she asked me in front of the whole class, if I had a GF. When I said, no, why?, she replied, "because I want a Luk-kreung baby" (half-Thai, half-Farang), and gave me a big smile. But, she was in one of the earlier classes I taught here and, I simply didn't have the where-with-all to do anything about her obvious attraction for me. I didn't know at the time she was only 17. I only found that out 2 years later when I ran into her on my soi and she said, "Aren't you going to wish me happy birthday?" And when I asked how old she was, she said, "19". I said, "You mean to tell me that you were only 17 when you first studied with me?" And she gave me a little wink and a giggle. But, I stupidly still didn't do anything about it. I've kicked myself ever since. She would still only be about 25 or 26 now.
Wrong Pictures and other artworks:
As for me possibly painting the wrong picture of Thailand: Why lay that on me? I could go through dozens of different so-called experts' posts on here and point out blatant, misleading errors about Thailand. My opinions about things are my opnions based on my experiences. They should be accepted or rejected as people want. This is true of anyone on here including you.
Ambassador seems to be a "four-letter word"
Since my use of the word "Ambassador" has engendered such a negative reaction, I would like to withdraw it as I feel it was too offcious-a-sounding word for what I really meant to say. I should have simply said that any of us represent to Thais examples of Farang culture, whatever that is. So, I think we would better serve ourselves by putting our best foot forward rather than doing something that they view as offensive in some way.
Blacklisted
10-27-05, 00:41
Seriously, you have waaaay too much time on your hands...
White Monkey
10-27-05, 02:55
I think that it has more to do with OTH having a deeper understanding of the culture and the result of that is that we get thoughtful posts.
He can't help it that he is more intellectually superior to you
Seriously, you have waaaay too much time on your hands...
he is more intellectually superior to you
???
Try way harderer next time.
FD
White Monkey
10-27-05, 03:13
I tink you not understanding humour me. If cannot, no promplem. I no wolly.
Maybe you is the good man too like me. On my culture we try to not tink da bad ting as it make you wolly too mut and get too ol' too fas.
You don wanna be da ole man do you?
???
Try way harderer next time.
FD
Old Thai Hand
10-27-05, 03:29
No Tripper
Not too much time....
I am able to think and type VERY fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!! because I know what I'm talking about.
My detractors are few, but loud, ignorant and obnoxious. My supporters are many and appreciative of the info I provide. Believe it or not, despite the stated purpose of this forum, there are many here who are interested in something a little more in-depth than f**** ho's, getting pissed off their faces and smoking ganja. There are more of those, I think than the likes of you. But, it takes all kinds. So, enjoy your holiday in LOS and I'm sure with your approach you'll take away a much deeper understanding of the culture you have just encountered.
Terry Terrier
10-27-05, 06:10
OTH
Firstly, thanks for the considered reply.
Your hefty edit was quite unnecessary. Your post in it's original format covered most of the salient issues more than adequately, and you have clouded one of them by backtracking with your edit on Thai racism. The peoples of the Isaan region consider themselves to be of a different race and culture to the rest of Thailand, and the rest of Thailand tends to view them likewise. The fact that they reside in the same country is a historical (and political) anomaly, like so many others in the world (Basque, Kurd, Palestine, being three of the more volatile, high-profile cases that spring to mind).
Which brings me to the only gripe I had with your reply in it's original format. Thailand (not just it's mongering) is kind of addictive for many of us. There is no question that you have unique (to this forum) insights into Thai society. And, though they are strictly off-topic, we all appreciate your efforts in sharing them. One of the less savoury posters on ISG (departed for the time being) tried to create a VERY derogatory agenda in this section regarding treatment of the Isaan prostitutes who tend to be the point of contact in Thailand for most users of this board. You worried in the past about impressionable mongers visiting Thailand and adopting the above attitude toward Thai people in general (to the point of threatening to have one poster who advocates the "skanks" viewpoint arrested). Surely, your own high quality info about maistream Thai racism, presented with your air of more than a little arrogance and without qualification (and, at times in the past, seeming aquiescence - though you have now partially clarified your position) is just as incendiary.
Magna White
10-27-05, 09:26
I just get back from Pattaya after 2 weeks stay. I ruined my relation with my previous honey the first night I arrived. I call my girl after I checked in a hotel. My girl Tj and her roomate Lg came to my room. I slept with them (not threesome) during my last trip there but finally settled with Tj. As we joked around and drank beers, I started to flirt with Lg. Of course I did not forget to play with my honey Tj. We ended up all naked in my bed. I fucked boh of them till we all get exhausted.
Next morning I found Tj had already left. And both girls did not come to my room afterward. Lg still wated to see me but Tj said she was no longer needed so she won't see me again. I tried to woo Tj back. But she does not want to share her man even with her best friend. I probably really ruined this relationship. I like Tj much better over Lg but had no choice after one threesome. These girls might work in bars but they are still quite normal women that don't like buttrflies.
Little Wing
10-27-05, 10:28
Believe it or not, despite the stated purpose of this forum, there are many here who are interested in something a little more in-depth than f**** ho's, getting pissed off their faces and smoking ganja.
Yes, particularly in threads like "Thai Women - Opinions and Advice" that I think are supposed to be about more than the issues quoted above.
I read this thread because there is sometimes (occasionally? often?) valuable insight and discussion here about various kinds of Thai women, and issues surrounding them, that isn't readily availble in other forums. Keep it coming :)
Little Wing
10-27-05, 10:41
These girls might work in bars but they are still quite normal women that don't like butterflies.
This is a useful observation. [Of course, one could be cynical about the purely financial motivation for why the girls don't want regulars to be butterflies, but lets skip that...] And as you say, with a girl you have a sort of short-term GF relationship with it can be a little confusing to reconcile. "I don't want you butterfly". "But you go out with anyone who pays." "That different, that my job". There can also be a difference in behaviour, with her acting a lot less "forward" in bed (at least at the start of proceedings...) than when you were just a customer and she assumed it was her job to just get on with it.
Doctor_Skank
10-27-05, 12:46
Hey fellas,
I really enjoyed reading the recent posts on Isaan vs. HiSo etc.... especially the repeated references concerning the "politics" of taking your girl to Emporium.
I am planning a trip to BKK/Pattaya in the near future for some R&R from Slavic women. I need some advice (or maybe somebody should clue me in) on dating Thai women. Sorry if its a bit off topic.
Of course the focus of my pursuits will be fire and forget prostitutes, as this is both a practical and very enjoyable pursuit in LOS. However I also like to go out with girls I consider normal or GF material, even if I know the relationship will not last longer than a few days. I enjoy the cultural interaction and the change of pace.
Still, for a tourist, this seems to be a difficult endeavour, even though I am not shy and Asian girls often consider me good-looking. I dont speak Thai beyond the usual tourist guide sawadees etc.
During my last trip to LOS, a couple of years back, I twice went to Emporium on dates, to the movies.
Once I went with a pro, who was some sort of girlfriend. Stunning go-go dancer with great tits (real) and a thin body tanned cappuccino brown from some club with a name like "king 3" or something, irrelevant. Anyway she latched on to me and we hung out together for 3 days and parts of the night, at least until she had to go to meet one of her regulars, some Korean guy. I paid for the sex even though on our second date, which wasnt arranged through the club but rather by mobile phone, she (in her broken but comprehensible English) said it wasnt necessary. I read between the lines that I still should, and I actually enjoyed the relationship still having this "borderline". When we went out to bars though she would often buy drinks or pay for the taxi, even insist on it. She was making great money as a pro she said, and her regulars, mostly Japanese and this one Korean, paid top baht. It seemed like she adopted me... maybe out of pity... :) She never asked for any money beyond the ST rate I was paying. I met her friends too. Very cool experience and she is one of the reasons I always praise the Thais and will forever love that country.
The second (candi)date wasnt so clear to me, however, and that is the root of my enquiry.
She was a very cute girl by European standards, thin, fairly tall by Thai standards (about 5'5" or 165cm), well-structured face and yes, fairly white. She worked during the day in a bar on Sukhomvit in the Clinton Plaza, which I understand doesnt exist anymore. I had been visiting the bar everyday during that week for juice and sometimes a beer and just as Thai girls are, was instantly adopted into their little crowd of waitresses, trading jokes and flirting as best one can without really having a common language.
Anyway at some point I decided to ask the girl I liked best out on a date.
I was a bit wary at the time, since even though I was well-briefed on the game through WSG I didnt really know what her position was. Did she turn tricks? Do all girls working on Sukhumvit (not far from Nana Plaza/Soi Cowboy etc.) turn tricks, even if during the day? What does she expect from me?
I hadnt seen any pro-action transpire from this bar before and the wait staff at night was different than the daytime staff. I didnt want her to be a pro.
Basically clueless but well-meaning and genuinely curious I asked her to the movies in Emporium. A bit confused by my proposal at first, she consulted her friends and agreed to meet me after work. We went to Emporium and enjoyed the film. I wish I could say that we ended having a night of wild sex, but actually little happened except for some discreet hand-holding and some stolen "innocent" kisses during the film. Communication was reduced to non-verbal means as her English was better than my Thai, but still almost non-existent.
I left BKK for Pattaya 2 days later and never really was able to follow up on this girl.
I also left clueless as to whether I had missed an opportunity, behaved irrationally from a Thai point of view, was too timid, failed to recognize that she was perhaps a pro after all or if in fact she was just as confused about the whole thing as I was.
My questions:
* Is there a dating scene for TGs and farangs that is not based on long-term relationships, direct support or anything like that?
* Is there a farang-accessible club scene where young people go to meet and interact, with the possibility of a STR (not an STD!)?
* What does an average Thai girl think when going out on a date with a farang? Does she do it because she cant so no, or because she expects compensation or because she does expect a bf/gf relationship? Is it embarassing for her because she'll be taken for a prostitute?
* Do Thais date at all in the Western sense of the word?
Excuse me for the general nature of the enquiry and I know it isnt possible to address all the various scenarios, but any general thoughts from LOS experts would be appreciated. Basically I'd like to know if dating is a real option or just a waste of time.
I tink you not understanding humour me. If cannot, no promplem. I no wolly.
Maybe you is the good man too like me. On my culture we try to not tink da bad ting as it make you wolly too mut and get too ol' too fas.
You don wanna be da ole man do you?
Too late mon. I awredy da ole man. Tanz por no a bein da flamar.
Fd
Yes it is indeed a different culture. Some Thais only focus on themselves and some give you undivided attention. Of course that is the same in the USA as well. Go to Home Depot or a lot of places where you get almost zero service here. The younger people do not even want to work as they soon realize after taxes there is not much left. A lot of Thais benefit from living together. That purchasing power of six people living together is much better than living alone. There are all types and if you have the time you can meet them. The bar girls even have a wide range of personalities as well. Some have married and made good wives and love their husbands while others are always after the next score. Too many girls to generalize. Try all of the flavors. Most are tasty and some are nasty. Overall a good place to visit.
White Monkey
10-28-05, 05:03
Anyone feel free to chime in on this one.
* Is there a dating scene for TGs and farangs that is not based on long-term relationships, direct support or anything like that?
Sure. This has changed a bit in recent years, but it is still quite a bit different than in the west. If one is dating a Thai woman they will need to clarify that they are "only looking" or whatever. This is not only being honest but can help prevent that "cling" that Thais are known for. On the other hand, it may also restrict you from getting any nookie. I think that once the deed has been done here, expectations from the gal are typically very high. Of course there are also a growing number of Thai women and students that don't want commitment either. They are playing the field or experimenting. Old school Thais may view them as non traditional women, or women from families lacking in warmth or even broken homes.
* Is there a farang-accessible club scene where young people go to meet and interact, with the possibility of a STR (not an STD!)?
All clubs are farang-accessible except some of the "Japanese only" establishments. A lot of this depends on your scene, mellow pubs, dining places, live music or a combination of all, known as discos.
* What does an average Thai girl think when going out on a date with a farang? Does she do it because she cant so no, or because she expects compensation or because she does expect a bf/gf relationship? Is it embarassing for her because she'll be taken for a prostitute?
I think they would typically expect a bf/gf relationship but see exceptions above. In the past it could have been embarrassing but not so in the big city anymore. All of this is relevant to how you are your date carry yourselves. For example, little or no effection and dressing appropriately in public are a must
* Do Thais date at all in the Western sense of the word?
see above
Just my $0.02 worth. Not a thai expert. Just an observer.
OTH: I think your points are very well expressed, but I believe you have underestimated the point of why a lot of blokes (lager-tourists) go to Thailand and behave completely out of sync with the local culture and norms. Including forking out lots of money to uneducated dark skinned prostitutes and behaving abysmally.
For these lager-tourists, they feel the money gives them the right to stampede over other cultures because this place is cheap, shopping is cheap, the women are cheap to buy and I can still get macdonalds here. They have no intention of fitting in. They have no intention of respecting any culture. For these sorts of tourists, Thailand is like Bali, Greek Islands, Spain, Mexico, Brazil and so on… just another destination to get plastered and bang a few *****s. Its about alcohol and sex and beaches and debased behaviour.
There’s no inclination or want within them to respect or learn about the local cultures. The locals are there to serve not to be respected. For lager tourists, their cultural exploration involves getting drunk and rooting some chick. And in Thailand, that’s dark skinned girls who know nothing more than the village they grew up in and how to make a buck in Bangkok.
Please don’t get me wrong people, this is not only white people behaviour, it’s a universal attribute: for example when Chinese tourists come to Australia and South East Asia and Japanese tourists as well. I’m here to spend my money, you locals should be bloody grateful. The behaviour can be unedifying (Japanese tourists in China), violent (Brits in Amsterdam and Europe) or just drunkenly ugly (Aussies in Bali).
The problem for you OTH, is you live in Thailand and you seem to have made an effort to get to know people there and attempted to integrate with the society. And then your friends tell you what they think of the jabbas and the company they keep in Thailand. And it makes you feel ashamed no doubt. Dark skinned *****s from Isaan etc. And for middle class fair skinned educated thai people, that fits comfortably into their own society hierarchy, that is dark skinned thais are uncultured and that now includes getting paid for sex by lager-louts. Thus the cycle is complete: farangs are uncultured drunks as they like giving lots of money to dark skinned prostitutes with no culture.
Unfortunately there’s no sense of ambassadorship for these lager-tourists who are only after cheaper sex, cheaper food and cheaper alcohol in locations where they can behave worse than when they are at home. I mean if these people weren’t after these things, why aren’t they lining up to go to Egypt or India?
The other point is essentially you ask for a call for culture and sensibility. My only point here is that where there is no culture to begin with, there’s no point expecting it when they go to Thailand.
So in summary, you can't win partly because they go to Thailand as they go to Bali and Greece and Spain and Brazil. But also because there's no culture to begin with. These jabbas/lager louts have no sense or intention to fit in. But if its any consolation, this a universal issue.
Jetmech322
10-29-05, 10:30
Dude,
You couldnt be more wrong about thailand.I have been traveled there many times. The locals dont expect you to adapt there customs or do they want you to!You are just there to have fun and spend your money and in turn boost their economy! That said that doesnt entile you to make an ass out of yourself either,but that goes for anywhere you travel to as well as your own country.
Old Thai Hand
10-29-05, 10:46
Supmam
I agree on all counts. Just wishful thinking on my part, I suppose. But, I'm not naiive to these types as I have observed them as you seem to have as well in Greece, Bali, the Caribbean, and Europe etc.
Perhaps it upsets me because I see it from the Thai perspective but still unfortunately with a Farang temperment. The Thais don't like much of what they see. But, they also see money to be made from these morons, so adopt their "mai pen rai" attitude in order to milk what they see is the fatted cow of these unrefined cultural bores.
I will try to give up my rant against the unwashed because it falls on deaf ears, anyway. You're right. They don't care except to take cheap shots at me on this forum because I care too much. They'll continue to come here, dress badly, talk loudly, stink up the place, shag poor Isaan girls, get on the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140), pick fights with each other and Thais (and get the shit kicked out of them), trash their hotel rooms and generally give a completely wrong impression of most Farang.
I will confine myself to talking about the Thai women that these guys, in their wildest dreams could never get a shot at, and who make the girls they do shag look like dog-food.
OTH,
"They'll continue to come here, dress badly, talk loudly, stink up the place, shag poor Isaan girls, get on the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140), pick fights with each other and Thais (and get the shit kicked out of them), trash their hotel rooms and generally give a completely wrong impression of most Farang."
Are you talking about FORUM MEMBERS - I might add that all the forum members I met dressed well, didn't drink more a couple of glasses and didn't fight with anyone nor fit any other ' description' you gave- or are you talking to the fxxxxxx axxxxxx you see in the mirror?
THNX,
Freeler
Freeler,
You cannot deny that there are two categories of tourists.
Basically, I agree with you that a lot of mongers know how to behave. I met a few with whom we hunted together and they were smart enough.
In constrast, I agree with OTH that one can still observe in Pattaya many individuals whose behavior is a shame for the whole farang mongers community.
It was interesting to me to detect that Thai girls usually subcategorize us beforehand according to our nationality in addition to our age / looks / money ... and will have a more or less positive opinion : e.g. France only gets you a polite smile while Switzerland will bring a big smile ... (although my theory could be biased and only related to the bank offices ...)
:-)
Best,
Kosta
Supmam
I agree on all counts. Just wishful thinking on my part, I suppose. But, I'm not naiive to these types as I have observed them as you seem to have as well in Greece, Bali, the Caribbean, and Europe etc.
Perhaps it upsets me because I see it from the Thai perspective but still unfortunately with a Farang temperment. The Thais don't like much of what they see. But, they also see money to be made from these morons, so adopt their "mai pen rai" attitude in order to milk what they see is the fatted cow of these unrefined cultural bores.
I will try to give up my rant against the unwashed because it falls on deaf ears, anyway. You're right. They don't care except to take cheap shots at me on this forum because I care too much. They'll continue to come here, dress badly, talk loudly, stink up the place, shag poor Isaan girls, get on the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140), pick fights with each other and Thais (and get the shit kicked out of them), trash their hotel rooms and generally give a completely wrong impression of most Farang.
I will confine myself to talking about the Thai women that these guys, in their wildest dreams could never get a shot at, and who make the girls they do shag look like dog-food.
I dont think you can say above about all the tourists.
White Monkey
10-29-05, 13:23
Since Freeler's reponse does not even deserve acknowledgement I will repond to TUSA on behalf of OTH Esquire. Hope this is OK OTH.
I don't think that OTH is making a blanket statement here. We all know that some tourists are extremely well behaved and culturally sensitive. In fact, those of of us that reside in the LOS all started out as tourists. It just so happens that there are those of us who strongly consider and respect the feelings of the citizens of LOS. This trait probably started from day one.
I think that he is reiterating and agreeing with the very valid points made by Supman. "Lager tourists" are everywhere and you will most definately find it difficult to teach them how to behave no matter how hard you try. They just won't get it, even if they are literate in the first place. In fact they, more than likely, behave exactly the same at home. Oh yeah, except they can't get laid there.
"tammai bang khon chawp haa reuang woi"
I dont think you can say above about all the tourists.
JuiceSpike
10-29-05, 14:28
Have you ever seen fat, loud and drunk Thais making noise?
Do they bother you too?
:D
White Monkey
10-29-05, 16:29
Are we starting a new thread? Isaanism, fatism and racism.
I am in hopes that we all agree that most drunks who are being loud have a tendency for being obnoxious?
What in tarnation does your comment have to do with anything? What else is bothersome? What about the Japanese slurping noodles? Or Vietnamese bargaining in the market? Or how about the sound of a sweaty farang tourist wearing sandals with socks, shorts and a muscle tee speaking loudly on the BTS?
I think the point is...when in "Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit" try to do what the "Krungthepians" do ?
Have you ever seen fat, loud and drunk Thais making noise?
Do they bother you too?
:D
JuiceSpike
10-29-05, 17:15
WMonkey,
The point is that if you are bothered by fat farang obnoxious sex tourists then you would be bothered by anybody of all races being fat, drunk and obnoxious. Right?
The fun thing about Thailand is seeing the guys out of control when they go there for fun. This includes all types: skinny ones two.
I think OTH has made great contributions and insights but to put himself above the "sex obnoxious crowd" is a bit ironic. To say that he can't help himself to see things from the "Thai" perspective is also ironic because he is not nor will never be Thai. But I understand his sensitivity to the issue. How can a fat obnoxious farang bother him and you so much when you seem to be away from it all?
Besides, as someone else already wrote in here Thais don't give a fuck as long as these obnoxious sex tourists spend some good money in their country which they do.
Besides, this board is about sex with Thai women who like to sell themselves to all kinds of farangs including fat obnoxious ones.
"High-end" cultural remaks seem a bit out of place especially for people who have decided to live there and continue to be part of P4P scene whether is with light or dark skin tone pussy.
Since I don't speak Thai and many others don't either,please translate your long sentence for the rest of us.
juicer
Old Thai Hand
10-29-05, 18:37
Juice
White Monkey's long sentence in his previous post is the full name of Khrungthep (Bangkok).
My "high-end" cultural remarks, as you put it are for those on this forum, and there are many who are moving beyond the P4P world into the world of ordinary dating of Thai women, and what that involves including understanding the culture. I am not in fact really part of the P4P scene, unless I occasionally feel like a 3 F experience, which these days is very, very seldom. I don't need to pay, so why pay?
It seems to me that the minute anyone other than the Gurus of P4P on this forum gives other points of view and other perspectives about this country, including information and P.O.V. about regular Thai women, other than the Thai ho's, you all love so much, he gets lambasted. Fortunately, there are also many members of this forum who are interested in finding a real Thai woman who isn't a ho and with whom they might actually have to make an effort to date, just like real people do in the real world. The fantasy of easy sex has lead many to fall into the trap of believing that it's like this with every Thai woman.
When I say I see things from a Thai perspective, I also stated with a Farang temperment because you're right, I can never be Thai. So, there's no irony there.
And, yes, fat, obnoxious, drunk Thais do bother me. Any loud drunks bother me anywhere, regardless of nationality.
"I don't need to pay, so why pay?"
For me, in order to leave without fear of "strings".
But, your points are well taken. None of us should presume that the way we do things is the only right way to do them.
FD
JuiceSpike
10-29-05, 19:52
As always you are quite eloquent... I see your point clearly but wondering if the guys out there looking for regular Thai woman will benefit at all looking in here where we pervs have a twisted idea of "regular" Thai woman when put in context of this site.
And you are right, why pay when you don't have to. I have dated regular Thai women and enjoyed their company but I have to say that a 3F is a good thing from time to time and Thailand is a great place for that.
Having been in a relationship with a regular viet woman for a year (next month :p) I can say that I miss the random fuck with a P4P girl as it has none of the "relationship" demands of commitment and attention even though our sex and companionship is great. But, obviously having a relationship is far more rewarding than fucking at will.
So, I envy all of you pervs living in Thailand because here in America is hard to have a quick encounter without either having to pay a lot or having my gf ask me who calls my cell phone when a regular girl calls to say "hi..." The good thing is that I might be able to talk my gf into doing 3s which when I first mentioned to her she looked at me and called me a "freak." But she showed signs of being curious...:D
juice
she looked at me and called me a "freak."
juice
That's because you are a freak, juice.
:D
Terry Terrier
10-30-05, 02:04
It seems to me that the minute anyone other than the Gurus of P4P on this forum gives other points of view and other perspectives about this country, including information and P.O.V. about regular Thai women, other than the Thai ho's, you all love so much, he gets lambasted.
Providing good info (and yours is very good) won't get you lambasted by anybody on the INTERNATIONAL SEX GUIDE. But providing it with a long toey eng manner will. Even making good-natured cartoon generalizations about fellow farang won't get you lambasted. But making them with arrogance and aloofness will.
You would do better to take your Thai colleagues and friends to task over their institutionalised childish racism (or "condescending attitudes" as you so euphemistically put it in your edited post), than a few fat sextourists to task over being drunk. But I suspect that, if you had the balls to do this, you would be rather more taken aback than you have been by the reactions to your arrogance here.
PosterLion
10-30-05, 02:51
In defense of OTH, and for that matter, every person on this forum, I am constructing a hypothesis in an attempt to explain the modern and/or not so modern concept of progress. I will post this wondrous brain fart after it has revealed its true nature via the synaptic functions inherent in my ole factory system.
As for OTH and other like minded individuals that feel a certain sense of embarrasment when viewing the "sex obnoxious crowd", I think it is completely understandable.
I have the same feelings as OTH for the most part when I am forced to watch the SOC's in action whether I'm in Thailand or America or anywhere. This feeling and/or attitude became known to me at a very young age when I first observed and understood the infallible hypocritic nature inherent in every single molecule of the species known to the universe as humanity.
This feeling is brought upon each and every one of us via the unique and always changing personal opinion of what is and/or is not morally objectionable. It is the age old and laugh-able argument concerning the correct pronunciation of the word tomato and/or potato. The mere fact that some people use tomato while others use potato in their vain and always unsuccessful efforts illustrates (at least for me) the absolute paradox inherent in the nature of humanity.
The fact that OTH considers the behaviour of the SOC's as unacceptable while at the very same moment the SOC's attempt to discredit OTH as a high-end-obnoxious-quibbler is another (perfect) example of the tomato/potato arguement.
All things considered as morally objectional are deemed so by today's modern moralists in a simailar manner. Namely, what is considered to be morally obectionable is nothing more than someone's perception of the correct pronunciation of tomato and/or potato.
If you really want to dig down deep you must also consider that everything I have just said is utter nonsense considering that I have spent the last 30 minutes typing this hypocritical post.
poster
Terry Terrier
10-30-05, 03:09
poster
you, i and most of the other cultural ambassadors on here are from the 'sex polite crowd' surely?
30 minutes? the answer, of course, is better whisky.
btw i was in [CodeWord900] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord900) (bkk) last week. excellent service (dick-suck), as usual, but are the girls there not as pretty as they used to be? or was i just unlucky on the day? even the mosquitos seemed to be avoiding the place.
Old Thai Hand
10-30-05, 05:18
terry and poster et al.
terry: i recall a post about a year or so ago when you simply wrote: "oth, go away." i subsequently, stopped posting for about 10 months. it seems that i should have continued to remain silent, instead of starting to post again. i certainly am unable to contribute to the intellectually stimulating debates as to whether such-and-such-a-place has the best "soapy" or whether the girls at [CodeWord900] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord900) aren't as good-looking as they once were.
what i am interested in commenting on probably isn't really appropriate here and is, as some have said "off-topic". perhaps this thread should really be titled, "thai hos, opinions and advice", since those type of women are really the focus of most people's attention on this forum and mainly the only kind of women that they will ever have an opportunity to meet. so, what i write about may make for some interesting reading to some, a sign of my uppity arrogance to others or just be a complete bore to most.
therefore, since i have probably said about all that is necessary about thai women from my experience, i think i will try to refrain from posting again.
Little Wing
10-30-05, 12:45
OTH, Sorry you feel like that. I don't think that general information about the nature and status of various Thai women is off-topic at all. Even if one is only seeing BG it is useful to have these comparisons.
In principle, some of this discussion might be more suitable for other forums. The problem is in other forums if the converstation strays into the BG area it tends to dissolve into unhelpful chaos and name calling. Here one can sometimes find useful information along the lines of "what is the difference between BGs and other TGs?".
Little Wing
PosterLion
10-30-05, 12:56
oth,
i will miss your "high-end-uppity-my-opinion-is-infallable-because-i-have-tenure posts." i say this while humbly and reverently offering up all due respect for your words and advice.
although my idea of respect may not be the same as yours, i can assure you this is of little consequence as far as i am concerned because what i am offering to you, even if you deem it worthless, is considered by me as the most valuable thing i possess and that should give you a small indication of my feeling about the topic of ambassadorship. i for one, will be delighted if you decide to post on these hallowed pages in the future.
terry terrier,
although whiskey might be the most sacred cure-all invented by man, there are many other substitutes and the venue you mentioned may be one of them. indeed, it is highly likely that when taken in appropriate quantities, a little dollup of whiskey along with a smigde of [CodeWord901] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord901) may hold more healing power that a large dose of either ointment taken alone.
btw, i'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say whiskey because maybe you are actually refering to bourbon or scotch. and what are your thoughts concerning a dick-suck? do you like yours shaken or stirred, with teeth or is it better served neat and toothless?
poster
JuiceSpike
10-30-05, 15:03
Nonsense. Keep posting your opinions, persepctives and don't let discussion or disagreement affect you in such way you end up not posting again. You have to remember that this is good place to discuss and even argue ideas, opinions, etc. Your posts are always a good read and if you get reactions from others it means people are paying attention to what you have to say.
Question for you: I remember a while back you wrote that some regular girls are as naughty or worse than a P4P girl who essentially does for a job and not pure enjoyment. Do you think that Thai girls once feeling comfortable they turn into little sluts in bed? (I do...:p)
juices
JuiceSpike
10-30-05, 15:11
Thanks for reminding me... :p
At the risk of seeming obsequious, I'm going the join the "chior" (to quote a departed friend) of posters who feel the board would be better served by your continuing to post.
That doesn't mean I'm going to always like what you have to say, but what fun would that be anyway? If we all felt the same way, expressed otherselves similarly, without any difference of opinion, would there be a need for this board at all?
Stick around.
FD
OTH - why leave - because some "farang ba" said "bai bai"? I doubt that many actually pay attention to your words and that is to their detriment - not their credit.
Just my 2 satang, though.
PosterLion
11-10-05, 02:56
HELP HELP HELP HELP (this ain't no bullshit) I know a guy that has been posting on ISG for a long time and he's in desperate need of help. One of his previous handles was "Dick Johnson" and I'm 100% certain he's a friend for some of you guys.
This fella (although he hasn't got a friggin' clue) is 100% in need of a few good slaps in the face. If he ain't corrected good and if he ain't corrected soon, it may be impossible to save what is left of him, and I'm dead-ass-serious.
He was once a clever-minded, highly informed, TEFLON coated mongerer (and I actually believed this about him too), but now he's infected with a virus 10,000 times more lethal than the bird flu. He's got the worse case of "Pussy Whip" I've ever seen in my life and I am down right fucking scared for his sanity and his life.
A BRIEF VIRAL ANALYSIS OF DICK'S CONDITION
===============================
1) Came to Bangkok June 2005.
2) Met a Thai girl and fell in lust/love during the first week of July 2005
3) Suffered all common ailments of new love including: jealousy, distrust, frequent arguements, frequent breakups, frequent butterfly post breakup syndrome which magically disappeared after recoupling with his beloved, and finally, a continuous repetition of all previously stated symptoms.
4) post new love symptoms: delusional hallucinations such as: seeing his girlfriend fucking other men, believing (without any proof) every single insidious lie his Thai girlfriend feeds him, frequent drug usage (hemp, E, cocaine, etc), neurotic hysteria and the list goes on and on.
I left BKK on July 4th thinking all was well with Dick Johnson. He even called me once while I was in Oklahoma just to say hello. I returned to BKK on August 5th still believing all was well with Dear ole' Dick. He met me several times for beers and I even brought my girlfriend along on more than one occasion, but neither I nor my girlfriend ever caught a glimpse of his beloved.
It was not until sometime in September that I knew Dick was in need of intensive care. He called me one day and asked me to meet him. I was delighted as usual to have an excuse to get away from Khun Mia and immediately accepted his offer. This is where the trouble became known to me.
He took me to a bar and just as we were ordering beers my telephone rang. It my Khun Mia checking up on me so as to make sure I wasn't out screwing a different lady. She used my PCT phone to make the call and this is a pertinent fact because PCT phones do not forward the caller's ID so my mobile phone registered the caller as "Unknown."
Dick was looking at my phone like a cat ready to pounce on it's prey and when he saw the "unknown" number he ripped my phone out of my hand and said hello. After he realized that it was my Mia he gave the phone back to me. During this time I was wondering what the fuck was going through his mind. After I hung up with my Mia Dick said the following to me, "poster, have you been fucking my girlfriend?"
I was fucking shocked and horrified out of my skull at the insinuation and denied it on the spot. Then repeatedly denied it as he could not find it in himself to believe I was telling the truth. This went on and on until I told him I had to go and promptly left him alone.
He called and insisted that I meet with him the next day and also the next day after that. I repeatedly denied his accusations, but he insisted I was a liar and a fraud. He was so out of his flipping lid that he began to encourage me to tell the truth. He even said that he'd consider it a personal favor if I'd come clean and own up. I repeatedly denied all accusations and then he did something that scared the shit right out of me. He offered me 10,000 Baht if I'd only tell him the whole story. After my denial he whipped out another 10,000 Baht thus upping the reward of truthful behavior to a whopping 20,000 Baht!
Finally, out of sheer boredom, I decided to pretend that I had been fucking his girlfriend just to see what would happen so I whipped up a tale from the recollections of my most recent "short time/3F" encounters. It was all complete bullshit, but he bought it hook line and sinker and then slid the 20,000 under my nose. At this point I told him I could not accept it for being a good liar. I am such a good liar that many a Thai Bar Girl would benefit more than a little if I were to teach a class on how to lie without detection. Many of you guys don't know how lucky you are that I've never taught this class in Thailand.
After he put the money back in his wallet he whipped out a picture of his girlfriend and I was damned on the spot because she actually resembled a freelancer I poked back in August. It was such a crazy coincidence that I stupidly informed Dick that his girlfriend did indeed look like someone I'd fucked before.
I'm not sure which one of us looked most relieved, but I can tell you that I felt damn good that there was a possibility that he could be right. The thought that I might have banged his girlfriend gave me one of the craziest feelings I've ever experienced. The obvious conclusion, which happened the very next day, was that I was to meet Dick and his Girlfriend for a confrontation.
The next day I went to the Dynasty Hotel as we'd arranged and waited for Dick and his Girl to show up. As I sat perched in my barstool outside of the hotel I contemplated what the outcome of our meeting would bring. It was my hope that I would be able to tell Dick I'd never fucked his girlfriend and I was quite certain that Dick wanted me to confirm that I had fucked her.
As it turned out, his girlfriend was taller and better looking than the girl I short timed and I had no recourse but to once again deny any wrong doing. I even asked his girlfriend why she was lying to Dick about our supposed affair. "Pom yak rue thamai pooying gohoke khun Dick, phrawa, Pom mae hen pooying gup mae poot pooying gup mae mi tuk yang, logo ,Pom kit wa, pooying ba, Pom kit pooying bye setanya degwa, phrawa pooying over yuk yuk gup mae dee yuk yuk, Pom mae chop pooying prassat ting thong." As you can see, my Thai is pretty awful but she did indeed understand what I was getting at.
At this Dick grabbed his girl by the arm and forced her into a taxi to the shock and amazement of myself and every one else in the vicinity. All I wanted to do at that point was retreat to my apartment and hope that no one would remember my face in association with what had happened.
After the confrontation I quit speaking to Dick Johnson out of concern for my reputation. It is not a good idea to be considered a bad hearted person that is capable of boxing a girl on Soi 4. It's a good way to get the shit kicked out of you by a mob of enraged Thai folk. After the confrontation I simply gave the phone to my girlfriend each and every time Dick phone me. After a few days he stopped calling and I was quite relieved.
Well guys... Dick called me again last night (November 9th, about 10pm) and his condition has worsened, in fact I think it haqs reached the critical stage. He now believes that his girlfriend has been meeting me on a regular basis and even went so far as to say he was certain I'd met with her at least 50 times since the confrontation! HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP!!!!!
If any of you guys are Dick's friend or if someone out there just gives one small speck of an iota of shit for this man, please PM me and I'll give you his current phone number after I'm convinced you do in fact know him. I hope there is someone out there he will listen to because I am certain he his going to suffer a miserable insanity and maybe even death if someone doesn't save him.
I AM 100 PERCENT SERIOUS ABOUT THIS MATTER.
sincerely,
poster
Damn, Poster. I am sorry this is happening. Was she a working girl when he met her??? He should realize that if she's not sleeping with you she is sleeping with someone else, so it shouldn't matter. I understand the drama that he is going through. I went through the same when I was dating a TBG that lived (and worked) here in the states. Luckily, one day I woke up and decided enough is enough. I almost did kill myself (and on a couple of occasions her) and she would not have given even 1/2 a shit. She is still living the life that she lived then. If you are up for that, then fine. If not, you have to move on. That's what I did, and that's what DJ should do. If he's having fun with the life, then he should enjoy it. But he shouldn't take it serious. In the end, she is different from him. Different morals. Different values. Different lifestyle. The two will collide if he keeps taking it so seriously. I wish you the best. And I hope DJ comes to his senses soon, before something goes wrong. I don't care what he says. She is not worth any of this. Whoever she is. She is not worth the headache and agravation, and possibly the fighting and bloodshed and tears. Be safe.
If any of you guys are Dick's friendI don't know Dick.
And if you don't believe me, ask my ex.
Sorry Poster. No can help as I don't know him. Have you thought about changing your phone number and lying low for a few days. Don't know if it do you any good, but maybe worth a try.
In hindsight, maybe you should have taken the 20K Baht for all the troubles you are going through. Good luck.
I recommend Dick Johnson kills himself, and as soon as possible.
He shouldn't even take a Thai girl into soi 4 in the first place, unless of course she was once a bar-girl, in which case he shouldn't be attached to her anyway.
Dick Johnson: jump off a tall building NOW!
Sorry Poster. No can help as I don't know him. Have you thought about changing your phone number and lying low for a few days. Don't know if it do you any good, but maybe worth a try.
In hindsight, maybe you should have taken the 20K Baht for all the troubles you are going through. Good luck.
I wouldn't recommend changing the number and lying low. It would just add to his suspicions. Bangkok (at least the areas we spend the most time in) is very small. You are bound to bump into him one day. And if you are "in hiding" and he finds you, it'll only make matters worse. The best thing is for him to open his eyes. As Coma Boy stated "He shouldn't even take a Thai girl into soi 4 in the first place, unless of course she was once a bar-girl, in which case he shouldn't be attached to her anyway." It is 100% correct. He should know this. And even if it's not the case, he shouldn't make such a big deal about this. Thai girls are big on drama. Everything is the end of the world to them. She is probably playing him to see how he reacts, to see if he gets jealous.
Being jealous because other guys are fucking the same prostitute as you is like being jealous that other guys also eat in your favourite restaurant.
The medical profession currently recommends one cure for pussy-whipped-ness and that is ten fresh pussies per week for two months.
I still recommend suicide.
James D 2004
11-10-05, 06:31
Ah! That Dick Johnson (http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=116863&postcount=90) *^%^*&% I thought he had gone hiding after I sent him an open post card from Argentina.
My advice is 1st, look at the mirror. Are you handsome, fit, young, big thick dick? If none of the above, proceed to look at your bank statement. Can you afford to pay her enough regularly so she stays within 6 feet of you for life? If not, she will fuck other men. If yes, she will also fuck other men for fun, or for more money.
BTW, I've been seeing a Thai girl on every trip. She has an American boyfriend. I over heard them on the phone once. She called him Dick.
Yeah, Dick is being a dick for sure.
Coincidentally, I suspect PosterLion may have been fucking some of my girls too.
Poster- I'll give you twenty Baht if you own up.
Poster
What a facinating tale this is....Dick has clearly got a very bad dose of the 'Thai Voodoo' .... a unpleasant complaint that makes him irrational at best and down-right jealous at worst....very nasty.
Go and hang out in Soi Cowboy/Soi 33/ Patpong for a few weeks. Let this poor fool let off lots of steam and 'find' himself again.
The poor chap has clearly been believing what has been coming out of the mouth of his Terak....not a good idea. I keep telling everyone I meet in Bkk never to believe a word...but they dont listen.
Also seems he might have been a little heavy on the Bolivian Dancing Powder....this can make you act like a total paraniod fool. I mean it is not like there is a shortage of Poontang or anything!!
If you do venture back into the Soi 4 region could I suggest a wig and fake moustache....or the other way round if you already have long hair on both your head and upper lip.
Let this be a lesson to you all about the power of the Thai Voodoo!!!
Wayne
PosterLion
11-10-05, 09:15
Hey everybody (pretend I sound like Gomer Pyle),
I appreciate all the comments, advice, and empathy I found in your reports. Thank you and Thank you again.
I know that I've owned-up to being a professional liar, a professional drug dealer (21 years ago in my distant past), I've attempted to convince you that I could be (but am not) a professional writer, and I've done many other things and/or another to give all of you (and rightfully so) plenty a hesitant pause concerning the authenticity and/or the accuracy and/or reliability of my posts. But I have nary a reason to flinch nor hesitate before stating that I have tried to be as truthful and accurate as is humanly possible for anyone stupid enough to attempt the impossible task of creating an authentic autobiography.
There mere fact that the writer writes about himself without the help of fictional characters provides more than enough evidence to condemn him as a hypocrite because in choosing to write about himself he has committed the fatal and therefore mortal sin of succumbing to his ego.
I hold the opinion that no human that has treaded upon our blue planet has ever won the war between himself and his ego (there may be exceptions of course but I deem the number to be statistically insignificant and hence a worthless endeavor to argue about). I think I've managed to fend off my ego (enemy) to the extent that I control about 80% of the disputed territories and therefore believe that no more than 20% of my posts are tarnished with embellishments. I do realize that I could be over estimating myself and relinquish all future judgement and karma that must and should be administered to the reader.
As far as my situation is concerned I am not attempting to lie low nor avoid Mr. Johnson other than the fact that I've told him I will no longer entertain any discussion concerning his girlfriend. I have been and continue to be amazed, dazed, and confused that Mr. Johnson could possibly believe the word of his supposed girlfriend over mine. I've corresponded with him for at least three years via the internet and the telephone. Oh well, enough about this unbelievable factoid.
His routine is not similar to mine in any shape or fashion. About the only similarity I can find in our routines is that we both reside in Bangkok. As for myself, I'd be hard pressed to think that I actually have a routine. Many a day begins with the realization that I can't recall what day is currently whizzing before my eyes. My life has been and as far as I can predict always will be similar to the ebb and flow of a river. I have made very few significant decisions in my life and have never desired to make the few decisions that I've actually made.
Take my current girlfriend as an example. I wasn't looking for a girlfriend and it was she that initiated the idea that we live together. I did nothing more than allow her desire to become a reality. She has worked as a pay for play lady of the night for the last 12 years and those years add up to a grand total representing her entire professional career. I am quite aware that she's sucked and fucked a great number of cocks and quite frankly, I pity the Poor Sap assigned the task of calculating that number. It doesn't make one fucking bit of difference to me and I do remember counting my blessing more than once for landing a lady with such extensive sexual experience.
That said, I am also aware of the mantra that states: you can take the girl out of the bar but you can't take the bar out of the girl. I'd be impressed if someone such as the Pope came up with this theory, but I find it laughable to take seriously because it was most certainly invented by a *****monger. My reverse theory (which I believe to be infallible) states: you can take the *****monger out of the brothel but you can't take the brothel out of the *****monger. So what and big deal.
I've also stated that it is highly likely that more than one of you guys has fucked my girlfriend and my singular thought on this topic is a question that goes something like, "She's a damn good fuck ain't she?"
Oh shit, I almost forgot about Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson does not frequent the usual haunts us white-trash folk run in as he's an (A)merican (B)orn (C)hinese most commonly abbreviated as ABC. He prefers to hit the discos and bars in pursuit of the fabled white skinned Chinese woman to which our Asian brothers are known to prefer. I doubt I'll ever understand this because I've never had a preference for skin color, however, there is one feature that I've recognized to be present in 90% of the woman I've fallen for and that feature is dark eyes and dark hair, a feature represented by at least 90% of Asian and a feature represented in the vast majority of the women on our planet.
I have never noticed Mr. Johnson being overly interested in having sex with pay for play ladies and therefore believe he must hold some deep seated guilt complex about sex in general. In fact, the only time I've ever seen him frequent such places as Nana Plaza, Soi Cowboy, and the realm in between these major hubs are the one or two times he's gone to them with me. I actually like who(r)es in general because they are more or less what I consider to be my people. If you've read this post in it's entirety then you are probably aware that I relate more intimately with souls of a seedy nature.
My other routine of finding women has been via the internet and that is how I hooked up with my first Thai girlfriend. Looking for girls on the internet has many a virtue but that is a topic for another discussion.
In summary, I am deeply concerned for Mr. Johnson's welfare, but I am aware that like any other junkie/aholic he can't be helped until he has hit the bottom of the abyss. I can't begin to tell you how many of these souls I've encountered in my past and all I can say is that I've pitied each and every one of them.
The thing that really yanks my chain concerning Mr. Johnson is that he has been a regular reader of this board for such a long time and I know he's read nearly all the wisdom of SA. I just can't stop scratching my head over this sad fact, especially when it concerns an individual that is a self professed member of the Mensa Society. This just goes to show ya that my boss at the gas station I once worked for was right. He always used to say, "You can buy 'em books and you can send 'em to school but that don't mean they gonna learn nothin'."
poster
Chocha Monger
11-11-05, 05:27
Poster,
I do not know Dick Johnson but perhaps I can help you since I had a somewhat similar experience several years ago. You see, I was involved with this woman who would accuse me of cheating on her even when I was at home alone fast asleep. She would make surprise visits to try and catch me in the very act of making sweet sweet love to another woman. When that failed to turn up any evidence she would interrogate me for hours on end. She refused to let me sleep until I confessed and told me that the girls that I had fucked told her how great I was at eating pussy.
I am not sure if it was the need to get some sleep before work the next day, the vivid details of the other women's confessions or a combination of both, but she usually got a "confession" out of me by 2:00 AM that night. After confessing I was relieved to finally be allowed to sleep and she was over-joyed to have "caught" me fucking around. Now, Poster we can having a long discussion about the ethics behind confessing to a crime that was never committed but that belongs in another place and time. The fact is that I was not going to get any sleep by sticking to the truth, and I got the strange feeling that this woman needed to feel cheated on in order to be able to let the matter go.
The way I see it, you would be helping Dick Johnson by pleading guilty to fucking the shit out of his Thai girlfriend. Remember that Dick is willing to pay you 20,000 Baht to bring your version of reality a little closer to his, so be sure to include all the sordid details about how you ass-fucked his girl and she swallowed every drop of your cum. Do you still have to ask why his Thai girl confessed to fucking you 50 times a day? If you had to choose between getting boxed around and being paid 20,000 Baht to confess to fucking some farang who you never met in your life which one would you choose?
Do not be quick to blame this girl for Dick Johnson's madness. You might have been horrified to find out why she had to lie to him about you constantly poking her with your marvellous cock! Remember that she was manhandled and forced into a taxi before having a chance to explain herself.
Chocha, was she a Thai girl? If so, then you are lucky to still have your dick, or even be alive. Thai girls have been known to cut off the penis of their cheating husband/boyfriend. They also fight unfair. They wouldn't think twice about stabbing you while you are sleeping or smashing a bottle on your head as you sleep. I witnessed my ex girlfriend (thai bargirl) doing this to her new boyfriend and it wasn't a pretty sight. He needed at least 6 stitches. Having said that, it would be unwise for poster to admit to doing something that he didn't do, and it would also be unwise for him to admit it even if he did. He should make the point (if she is a bargirl) that it doesn't matter. It would be terrible if DJ gets violent with posterlion over this. He already showed him that he is willing to get physical with her over this. It would be terrible if he got physical with Posterlion over this. Things might escalate and it could turn very ugly very quickly.
Chocha Monger
11-11-05, 05:53
Phuquer,
In my case the girl was not a Thai BG. You do make some excellent points concerning the possiblity of Mr. Dick Johnson going postal on PosterLion. Ironically, it seems that Poster's denial only convinces Dick that he is guilty as sin, so I doubt that doing the opposite would provoke a stronger response. Perhaps, Poster's don't ask don't tell policy is the best approach to the matter. Maybe, DJ will fixate his paranoia on another target. I suspect more at work here than mere jealousy and the girl should get herself out of that situation before things go horribly wrong.
PosterLion
11-11-05, 11:15
Hmmm, now you've got me thinking about this in ways I hadn't considered. I had not considered the possibility of his GF being in danger, but I have considered Dick a possible threat to myself from the moment he grabbed my phone out of my hand. I figure I never thought about his GF because the fight-or-flight instinct (being that it is an instinct) begins and ends with each singular individual.
I don't have a clue whether his GF is a bar girl or not, but I suspect he believes she is not a bar girl without regard to actual reality.
Phuquer's remarks provoked my memory and now I recall in further detail certain things Mr. Johnson related to me about things his GF had being doing to him while he was sleeping. I feel that I dare not mention this new information because I think it would discredit me in the eyes of some readers.
I will try to act like a Thai person and add the additional information to my posts by giving a subtle hint because it's just too scary and real to talk directly.
Sometimes I wonder why there are so many katoeys in Thailand. I find it hard to believe that so many of these former men made the conscious decision to cut off their penis. :)
poster
Sean_Double
11-11-05, 16:16
[Quote=Posterloin]
Sometimes I wonder why there are so many katoeys in Thailand. I find it hard to believe that so many of these former men made the conscious decision to cut off their penis.
[QIOTE]
Poster,
Thats interesting, my first take on the story was that the girl would probably feel insulted and threatened and maybe retaliate.
We know that about every week there's some story in the Thai news involving a penis and a knife. It usually involves some cheating Thai husband coming home drunk and boxing the complaining wife only to wake up missing a piece. I don't remember ever hearing about a de-penised farang though.
My TGF loves these stories and of course always sides with the woman.
Whatever the history of the girl is Mr Johnson's obsessiveness is really probably putting himself in real pysical danger as well as the obvious mental ones.
Jeez.
Cheers,
Sean
Sometimes I wonder why there are so many katoeys in Thailand. I find it hard to believe that so many of these former men made the conscious decision to cut off their penis.Most katoeys keep their penis. Many have fake titties but few chop off their wieners.
The Traveler
11-11-05, 19:59
Poster,
knowing both of you I doubt that Dick will cause any threat to you, but since he is on drugs we shouldn't rule out anything.
I believe it's best to tell him the truth, that you don't know his GF and therefore have never fucked her or got involved with her in any other way. Also tell him straight away that you are embarrassed and bored by his constant accusations and that you will avoid any further contacts as long as he acts like a brainless moron and keeps accusing you.
Don't ever commit anything that you haven't done !
I am quite certain that he won't stop and might think that you will still meet his GF behind his back. If you are concerned about any threats he might cause you should think about what a maniac will do if he is convinced that you do cheat on him. As long as he has doubts he might avoid to take any actions against you. He also seems to have no stoppages and uses force against his GF (which is an absolute NO NO for me and makes him a coward and a low life in my eyes). What do you think he will do to you then ?
In short : Tell him you don't fuck his GF, never did and that he should stop bothering you. Period.
The Traveler
11-11-05, 20:00
Most katoeys keep their penis. Many have fake titties but few chop off their wieners.
Coma,
many would like to get a full op, but they just can't afford it.
PosterLion
11-14-05, 19:13
Okay Guys,
I guess this about wraps up my call for help. It never crossed my mind that I needed help when I began to write this saga, but thanks to those that considered my safety.
I do hope someone that knows Mr. Johnson will contact him and swing his highly swung mind back to reality or earth or any where that is better than where it is now.
My mention of katoeys and the possibility that their penis might have once been duck food was just a silly hint at something that Mr. Johnson told me about his penis in relation to his GF. Now that traveller has chimed in his two cents I think he can back me on my story, because the last time I saw Trav at the Bier Garden (sometime in October right Trav?) I relayed this tidbit to him.
Has anyone on this board ever seen the arm (or leg) of a bar girl (or any girl) that repeatedly cuts herself? I'm talking about those razor thin cuts all in a row.
Well... Mr. Johnson told me one day in somewhat similar words as this, "Err, Umm, and then there is the shit she does to me when I'm sleeping."
"When you're sleeping!", yelped poster.
"Yeah... She's been cutting on my penis."
"Are you serious! What the hell are you still doing with her (and thinking to myself, "How could this idiot seriously think I've been fucking his girlfiend"), Get the hell away from her now!!!!!"
"So poster... Just tell me the truth man. When was the last time you saw her."
Hey Trav, do you remember me telling you about this?
And thus ends my recounting of a very sad affair. Indeed, it is sad, because a man once valiantly ranted and raved and attested that finding them and fucking them and forgetting them is the only way to go. His name was SA and as far as it concerns Mr. Johnson, I whole-heartedly agree.
Poor Dick... he shoulda listened to SA
And for that matter poor SA... after all that heroic effort, teaching the most simplistic of teachings (that of the 3Fs), to think that his words fell on deaf ears...
Oh the horror of it all, the sad sad wretched horror! It may be a good idea for Jackson to consider adding all of SAs posts to the "Reports of Distinction" Section. If it saves just one life, just one more hapless penis...
To all a good day and remember to keep your powder dry and your sanity intact,
poster
The Traveler
11-14-05, 22:13
Poster,
yes I remember that you have told me about it. But do you also remember why we were talking about that matter ?
I had just met to Dick Johnson and we somehow started talking about my GF. He wanted to see her pics immediately almost insisted on it. Guess if we would know each other much better and if I wouldn't be much bigger than him he would have grabbed my mobile like he did with yours just to see the pics. His whole behaviour was extremely strange and after I had talked to Poster I was able to put it in context and knew that he wanted to see my GF pics because he thought it might be his GF that was fucking another guy, ME.
He asked me lot of legal issues regarding Thais and foreigners. Guess he bought her a condo or maybe he bought one on his name or intends to and was worried that she can cut a share if they seperate. Whatever, not my business.
All in all he acted strange and I didn't feel comfortable with him this time.
Regarding SA :
Most guys opposed SA not for his message of the 3F's - it wasn't invented by him and most of us exercise the §F's even without SA's advice - but for his devaluating and insulting language regarding the girls. They aren't used Kleenex, period.
Anyway, I use the 3F's quite often but it's no religion to me. I have stayed with some Thai girls for weeks, months and even years without any damage to my soul, heart or wallet. As long as you think with your brain you aren't in danger. No SA needed, just common sense.
How many people there speak English? Thanks.
How many people there speak English? Thanks.
I don't know. Forgot to count getting all the beauties in bed.
How many people there speak English?Somewhere between 350 and 400.
JuiceSpike
11-15-05, 15:39
Poster,
Nice lovely story. I was wondering if you really need to be so worried since the Dick drama seems to come from deep seeded insanity but then again insane people are capable of doing crazy things... Man, there are so many details about that fiasco that if done right would make an interesting horror movie.
How can a man get so wrapped up on a woman that likes getting fucked for money? Please someone explain this phenomenon to me... :D
SA had a good message but the sensitive ones in here either got it wrong or made their hobby their religion and obviously did not get the twisted yet funny humor.
Poster, I really don't think you need to worry for your personal safety as long as you make it a priority to get as far away as possible from Mr. Dick or confront the loser. Maybe he needs a "reality" check. Anyway, what is real over there?
juices
PosterLion
11-15-05, 22:46
Maybe he needs a "reality" check. Anyway, what is real over there?
Everything is real in Thailand: love, sex, money, food, drugs, lies, corruption, truth, honesty, deception, rain, heat, and so on and so on.
I'd say the biggest problem most foreign men have in Thailand is the problem of "poor judgement" or lack of "common sense", take your pick. Having "poor judgement" is the same thing as having "no common sense" in my opinion, but I'll stick with "poor judgement" for the rest of this post.
I've lived with two women during the course of nearly two years in Thailand and I've never had a serious problem to date. Maybe this is due to extremely good luck or maybe this is because I have reasonably good judgement which is of course the opposite of poor judgement.
Now I'm laughing at myself and want to forget this whole conversation because I wonder why I have "good" judgement while others have "poor" judgement. Do I have "good" judgement because I have consciously developed it, or is it just due to superior intellect or is it due to some sort of DNA thing or is it just plain ole' good luck, and if so... why the hell is that?
Maybe it is an inherent quality of the universe that some of us possess good luck and good judgement while others possess bad luck and bad judgement.
We can believe this last statement to be true or we can believe it to be false, but that doesn't detract from my hypothesis that everything is real because whether one possesses good luck or bad luck, it is a fact that one possesses luck of one kind or another and therefore proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that everything is indeed real.
Isn't it?
poster
JuiceSpike
11-15-05, 23:24
Poster,
Good judgment in the context of Thai pussy perils does not come from DNA, superior intelligence, good luck, cosmos alignment or even good weather. Good judgment comes from thinking with the head not with the dick ;)...
Yeah, everything is real in the eyes of the beholder...
juices
Could someone guess what % ot Thais speak fluent English? Thanks.
Could someone guess what % ot Thais speak fluent English? Thanks.
2.89154627%. That's the number from United Nations Department of English.Is that good enough for you?
Poster
Everything is real, as long as it is from your perspective.
2.89154627%. That's the number from United Nations Department of English.Is that good enough for you?
Are you sure that is correct??? I was going through the UN Department of English website last night and I saw that number, but it was from 1990. If I remember correctly I heard on the English Channel (Channel 97 on cable) that right now approximately 2.9212812% of regular Thai people speak English, but when you get to the mongering areas (Suk, Patpong, etc), that number jumps dramatically to 8.2124452%. Really interesting, I thought.
I Jags, many people in the service industry (hotels, taxis, etc) speak passable english. Working girls (P4P) for the most part speak enough english to be able to bargain. Most ordinary Thais (the ones working in many department stores, street vendors, regular police, gas station attendants) speak little if any english. Would be wise to invest in a Thai phrasebook, or better yet, take some lessons when you arrive in Thailand. Stickman has quite a number of schools posted on his website that teach thai for beginners. Many lessons are aimed at tourists.
Are you sure that is correct??? I was going through the UN Department of English website last night and I saw that number, but it was from 1990. If I remember correctly I heard on the English Channel (Channel 97 on cable) that right now approximately 2.9212812% of regular Thai people speak English, but when you get to the mongering areas (Suk, Patpong, etc), that number jumps dramatically to 8.2124452%. Really interesting, I thought.
You couldn't resist could you? :D
I Jags, Phuquer has been very nice to give you a perspective. But did you really think through before you asked that question. If you had read through the reports i.e. RTFF, you would have had the answer.
Now the question. How many people in US speak English?
Answer: None. They speak American English. Only English people speak English.
If you go to any country in the world which caters to tourists, you will have enough people to communicate with to get by. Alternatively sign language and mimicry always works.
The Traveler
11-17-05, 00:47
Duni,
I think or better wish to not understand Thai sometimes as you often hear so much crap and pure nonsense.
BTW, that counts for any other language I am able to understand as well :)
PosterLion
11-17-05, 14:45
Now the question. How many people in US speak English? Answer: None. They speak American English. Only English people speak English.
Duni Duni Duni... Where ya at or how are you if you prefer the Cali dialect of American English. Oh... wait a minute. Enough's enough man!
It's one thing to preach to us Americans (and Okies if we be special enough to be considered American), but you've most certainly crossed the line for a telling us that we don't speak English cause we speakin' "American English" and I ain't whistling Dixie either.
Jeezus H. Christ! Ain't you got yourself a dictionary or are you so smart being from India and all that you ain't got no use for one no more? Well Sir, I got me a dictionary and it sure as hell does say American English in big bold letters right on the cover Sir. And do you know why?
I figure you probably don't and I don't expect you to understand our American English too much being that it be the one true more better far far superior version of the language. Dear Sir, the reason for this is of the utmost simplicity. Have you ever heard of Galapagos Island or Charles Darwin (the creator of Darwinism)?
Darwinism states thusly and as so forth and suchwhat that every critter evolves by a process known as Natural Selection. Now Sir, pay attention because it's important. Natural Selection is a high falutin' Oxford English word that simply means "survival of the fittest" or "only the strongest survive", are ya still with me Sir?
At this point I defer credit where credit is due to Mr. Darwin and his race of people for figuring out why it is that them folk across the pond ain't no longer of much significance no more. Here's a mighty yeehaw for them folk and now I am fighting against a fit of lunatical laughteritis (ha ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha), did you know that fella actually had to study animals on some island 50,000 miles in the middle of Hoboken before going back to his little isle next to the continent so as to report to all and sundry the reason their Empire was no more? Ha Ha Ha Ha! Ha Ha Ha Ha!
Jeezus H. Christ Almighty Sir Duni! Did ya get all that? I hope so cause I got so busy explanatin' to ya the theory them blue bloods came up with just so they'd be able to look themself in the mirror after the hum-a-dinger-a-realization come down and thunderstruck 'em. After all, it must a been mighty hard to own up and admit the obvious superiority of the Americans and also but of course of course the superlative undeniable fact that American English be the version more better.
Now Sir Duni or might I refer to you as Grasshopper during this monumental Kung Fu moment? You must understand the constipated nature of my chapping highly flatulent ass, a condition which besieged me immediately after reading your blasphemeial comment concerning the most sacrosanct English present in this here modern world.
It is one thing for the English to commit such desperate and barbaric attacks on "The" English of the world, but it is another thing all together for a speaker of "Indian English" to commit such transgressions. And that Sir, is why I must again inform you that you have crossed over the line.
In the future I hope you aspire to and obtain the common sense necessary to restrain yourself from needlessly wasting your precious time assaulting the unassailable superiority of the American English Language.
Thank you and best regards and if you believe that I’m being overly serious you might be correct. :)
poster
Duniawala,
Actually, the US's version of English is called General American English, not American English. And the British version, at least the preferred one (since there are hundreds of different dialects across the UK), is called Received Pronunciation.
As for which is better, who knows.
I can't say I'm a big fan of the English I hear from Thai ladies.
Me thinks you have too much time on your hands, mate. :)
Unfortunately, I am not as eloquent as you are, you being a writer and all, ya know. My statement did not have anything to do with the superiority of one over the other. It was a mere technical observation.
Now don't you call me Sir Duni, again. Even though the country was lorded over for 200 years, I personally was born after the fact. So I do not have any allegiance to the Brits.
As for myself, I don't know what English I speak. Having learnt in the Oxford system with English English, then practiced Indian English, and then thrust into American English which was compounded by the Southern drawl and then further confounded by the Valley speak………… God, I don't even know what language I am speaking.
Peace, Lion of the Okie. Keep posting. :)
PosterLion
11-17-05, 16:00
Ok Duni,
I believe a truce is in order. How many days until BKK day?
Khun Mia (wife #1) is out drinking whiskey with the girls as I sit here holding my cock as various and sundry stock prices dance through my head.
And then suddenly, from the alarming depths of nowhere, I have a small thought that is rapidly growing larger and then... and then, yes, yes, yes!
I post this stupid post then quickly cover my longs with put options and head to Soi Nana because right now at this very moment I am thinking I'd rather have a tight assed, tight abbed, happy smiling gogo s-l-u-t dancing through my head and across my bed.
later!
poster...
Not to change the subject, but where's Joe Z???? Haven't heard from him in ages.
Old Thai Hand
11-17-05, 18:15
i once had a thai woman ask me to teach her bbc english, essentially the broadcast style taught in media programs in english universities and heard on the 'beeb'. apart from the fact that i'm not a brit (she didn't deem to realize this, despite my canadian accent) and i'm not even an english teacher, she seemed hell-bent on learning to speak like this. i told her that brits didn't even speak like this and that as in america, broadcast english is a style that only seems natural on the tube. it sounds quite bizarre when heard on the street.
in any event, i always like debates about english because it gives me a chance to point out to my pompous brit friends that the closest modern dialect to the english spoken in chaucer's time, for example is that flat even-toned speech heard in nebraska in the usa. this really gets their knickers in a knot. for example, despite his limited acting ability, kevin costner's robin hood, in terms of dialect, anyway is certainly closer to what robin hood would probably have sounded like than the toney accent of richard greene in the old robin hood tv series from the 50s. i also like to point out that despite the fact that in most modern shakespearean productions the lower classes speak in a stylistic cockney accent, this accent, derived as it is from the influx of hassidic jews from eastern europe into london, beginning in the late 18th century would be as foreign to shakespeare as swahili.
the point of this is that there is no one ideal english and that like any other language it has been subject to influences and changes throughout its history.
of course, try to explain this to a brit, (or any thai educator, for that matter) and they will stick to their guns that there is only one true english...and i actually heard this today...."the king's english"....whatever that is...
it is called "queen's english", and really is the only acceptable form of speech. everyone else should have their tongues torn from their heads.
unfortunately most brits can't even speak english properly.
Well the proper English as OTH has stated is American English from the Midwest. This is in the Thailand part of the forum and in Thailand the girls have a hard trouble understanding English from Brits, Auzzie's, Southern/East Coast regions of the USA. It has all to do with the accents. Of course an open wallet can overcome most of these language barriers.
Old Thai Hand
11-18-05, 01:22
cb
yes i know it's called "the queen's english". perhaps my pompous colleague was waxing poetic about king george v or vi (he's old enough) and the glory days of the british empire or perhaps looking forward to the reign of charles iii.
....i hope you were speaking with your tongue in cheek when you said it's the only acceptable form of speech....because as a canadian, i take great offense at that and would just like to say, "take off, eh?"
Hmm, kind of tongue in cheek, but secretly serious too, in a patriotic and sexy sort of way.
It does rile me everytime I see hideous mispellings like "Siam Center"... *shudder*
Hearing "alluminium" makes me laugh, but "egg-plant" I can forgive.
Anyway, since watching "Bowling for Columbine" I love Canadians.
Ok Duni,
I believe a truce is in order. How many days until BKK day?
Khun Mia (wife #1) is out drinking whiskey with the girls as I sit here holding my cock as various and sundry stock prices dance through my head.
poster...
BKK is Dec1, 10:30 pm. Manhatten Hotel 12:00 midnight. You meeting me at 12:10 am with mia noi for me. Is that ok?
I am sorry that you have to hold your cock while Khun Mia ia out drinking whiskey. Just don't hold it when you meet me. :eek:
Old Thai Hand
11-18-05, 11:38
cb
i hope the next time you're passing 'thru' siam 'center' on the way to your 'favorite' 'theater' to watch a movie, you don't get 'criticized' for ogling a student sunning herself with 'aluminum' foil while waiting for the new semester 'enrolment' to begin. it would be advised not to engage in any 'dialog' with this student in case someone pelts you with 'colorful' 'eggplants' for taking ill-advised 'license' in talking with someone who may well be '****'. of course, in your 'defense' it might be said that, thai girls tend to look younger than their actual chronological age and how are you to know that you may have 'gotten' her age wrong. of course, at this point, an angry mob might be slashing the 'tires' on your car and smashing in your 'trunk' with a 'crowbar'. you could at this point, placate everyone by buying the girl some 'jewelry' at mbk 'center', some 'pajamas' for her father, a 'plow' for her grandfather, the farmer, a few computer 'programs' for her brother, or simply by giving the whole family a 'bank draft' or writing them a 'check'. in thai society, it is best to avoid any 'argument' or make any 'judgments' of any kind. such conflicts could cause you 'premature' 'aging'. all-in-all, there is a whole 'catalog' of troubles that an incident such as this could cause a foreigner 'skillfuly' trying to avoid trouble and only wishing to 'analyze' the situation properly in order to act in a most 'honorable' way.
btw, i'd like to point out that english spelling was fairly freeform well past the elizabethan age. it only began to become standardized after the mass production of cheap books became common-place in the 17th century which necessitated a standardized spelling. so, we can continue our spelling 'argument' or move on to other 'favorite' and more 'colorful' topics.
I've just reported you to the Queen.
She intends to have MI5 do a "Diana" on you should you ever lay foot on British soil.
White Monkey
11-20-05, 04:11
cb and oth,
north americans will all agree that canaduh is merely and extension of the divided states of america (thats amarika if you hail from texas).
canadiuns, sort of like the injuns, were taken over as the 51st state years ago. they have been left to make a few decisions on thier own, mostly by way of diplomats disguised as comedians and based in hollywood, but they basically act, dress and have a social makeup just like their southern neighbors (imperialists).
to date, the newest state has a few issues that don't digest well with uncle sam. some of the main issues included in the list is paralanguage and those funny extra letters in words that come from england. there is a tendency for canadian americans to use "eh" ending and there has been a re-education campaign based from california (by the governator nontheless) to have this "ending" substituted for "dude".
the second issue involved guns. there has been a steady increase in violent films, etc send to the 51st state in an effort to teach canadian americans how to hate each other more. it is a shame that they have all of those guns and they never shoot them at each other. in time, the rest of america hopes that their newest state will catch up in to the national average for homicide rates.
cb
i hope the next time you're passing 'thru' siam 'center' on the way to your 'favorite' 'theater' to watch a movie, you don't get 'criticized' for ogling a student sunning herself with 'aluminum' foil while waiting for the new semester 'enrolment' to begin. it would be advised not to engage in any 'dialog' with this student in case someone pelts you with 'colorful' 'eggplants' for taking ill-advised 'license' in talking with someone who may well be '****'. of course, in your 'defense' it might be said that, thai girls tend to look younger than their actual chronological age and how are you to know that you may have 'gotten' her age wrong. of course, at this point, an angry mob might be slashing the 'tires' on your car and smashing in your 'trunk' with a 'crowbar'. you could at this point, placate everyone by buying the girl some 'jewelry' at mbk 'center', some 'pajamas' for her father, a 'plow' for her grandfather, the farmer, a few computer 'programs' for her brother, or simply by giving the whole family a 'bank draft' or writing them a 'check'. in thai society, it is best to avoid any 'argument' or make any 'judgments' of any kind. such conflicts could cause you 'premature' 'aging'. all-in-all, there is a whole 'catalog' of troubles that an incident such as this could cause a foreigner 'skillfuly' trying to avoid trouble and only wishing to 'analyze' the situation properly in order to act in a most 'honorable' way.
btw, i'd like to point out that english spelling was fairly freeform well past the elizabethan age. it only began to become standardized after the mass production of cheap books became common-place in the 17th century which necessitated a standardized spelling. so, we can continue our spelling 'argument' or move on to other 'favorite' and more 'colorful' topics.
2.89154627%. That's the number from United Nations Department of English.Is that good enough for you?
Look fool..Keep your gay commets to yourself if you have nothing better to do than act like a 10 year old girl.
Look fool..Keep your gay commets to yourself if you have nothing better to do than act like a 10 year old girl.I-Jags you penis!
You asked the gay question, Mister Duni was just giving you a straight answer.
Look fool..Keep your gay commets to yourself if you have nothing better to do than act like a 10 year old girl.
I would, if you didn't ask a 5 year old kids' question. And how do you know I am gay? You must be one to know without even seeing me. BTW, learn how to spell if you want to ask about English. Looks like you don't even know the language.
And finally, STFU.
Keep your gay commets to yourself.Perhaps I-Jags is a gay astrologer.
The Traveler
11-20-05, 21:39
... And how do you know I am gay? You must be one to know without even seeing me. ...
Duni,
what, you aren't gay ?
Damn, you always gave me that strange look and I almost gave in ! :D
The Traveler
11-20-05, 21:46
Look fool..Keep your gay commets to yourself if you have nothing better to do than act like a 10 year old girl.
I-Jags,
there is nothing wrong with being stupid, as long as you don't be proud of it.
Where is your humour ? Do you have any ? Don't take yourself too important, we all are freaks in one way or the other.
I-Jags,
we all are freaks in one way or the other.
I'm not. ;)
I-Jags,
there is nothing wrong with being stupid, as long as you don't be proud of it.
Where is your humour ? Do you have any ? Don't take yourself too important, we all are freaks in one way or the other.
Yeah, I'm a ball of laughs. But after 2 legit questions and nothing but grade school unhelpful responses, what do you want. Yeah, I guess it's funny..If you are in grade school. However I'm not. And I'm planning an expensive trip that I wanted advice on.
This isn't the place.
Yeah, I'm a ball of laughs. But after 2 legit questions and nothing but grade school unhelpful responses, what do you want. Yeah, I guess it's funny..If you are in grade school. However I'm not. And I'm planning an expensive trip that I wanted advice on.
This isn't the place.
No one here is required to answer a question just because you asked one. You are mistaking this site for "Ask Jeeves for Mongers" If you really want to know how many Thais speak English I am sure you could find some information about that online. Why dont you spend some time and find out the answer to your on question instead of insulting posters who have been contributing useful information over a long period of time. You could post the results.
I would gladly answer your question, but I havent a clue to the answer. Good luck on you trip.
Regards Horatio
Edited to add a post-script
In re-reading this post it seems a bit harsher than I intended it to be. What I mainly meant is that if you did not get an answer to your question here you can get it elsewhere and then post back here. Again good luck on your trip.
OK Jags - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - as to how many Thai speak English - it's pretty hard to pin this down - I have no idea WHY you want to know - but English is a "general" subject in school so many have "some" knowledge. As to fluent, though, I could ask you how many south americans speak fluent english (since your posts seem to be about south America) No answer? well, same thing here. We COULD guess (about both). Really, I have no idea, but as to fluent - maybe 1% at most and then only in the major city areas. That's FLUENT - as to speaking "some" - probably 30% and then related to what they do - like shopkeepers speaking numbers and other business phrases.
(Personally, I learned enough Thai to get by - not "fluent" by any means)
The "flippant" responses you got were in response to a "fair question" (it's a fair question) but "why bother" question from folks who would much rather chase women than try to carry on an intelligent conversation with them.
Anyway, that's my 2 'tang (or 2 centavos) or whatever
Old Thai Hand
11-21-05, 08:44
Jags
I didn't read your original question, until I scrolled back a couple of pages. But, I basically concur with Dinghy.
As a teacher here, (although not an English teacher) I have to contend with Thai students' English every day and am of course as familiar as most with the regular Thai ability on the street.
Considering that at least officially, English is the second language of the country, the Thais are quite poor at it. So, if your question comes from a concern for your ability to get around with no Thai, you'll be fine in the tourist areas in Bangkok, Pattaya and other places where they speak some English and understand it ok. But, you'll still find yourself more than likely in a taxi in Bangkok where the driver speaks no English. If you get slightly off the beaten track even in Bangkok, you might be out of luck as well finding anyone who even speaks basic English. When I was first in Thailand, I lived in a totally Thai neighborhood right next to Ramkhamhaeng University, with one of the largest English programs of any university and was still hard-pressed to find people on my soi who could say anything more than a simple hello. That's why I had to learn basic Thai pretty quickly which is easy enough to do with a good phrase book.
It is largely the fault of the Thai education system (which is basically crap) that stresses grammar over conversation. Just try talking to a Thai English teacher at any but the best Thai schools and they won't even be able to carry on a basic conversation. But, they'll be masters at English grammar rules.
But, all in all, this isn't a difficult country to get around in even if you don't speak any Thai, and even in the most remote areas. So, if that's your concern, I wouldn't worry. Get yourself a good phrase book with Thai writing, so if all else fails, you can point to the word you're trying to say and you should be ok.
The Traveler
11-21-05, 23:50
Yeah, I'm a ball of laughs. But after 2 legit questions and nothing but grade school unhelpful responses, what do you want. Yeah, I guess it's funny..If you are in grade school. However I'm not. And I'm planning an expensive trip that I wanted advice on.
This isn't the place.
I Jags,
my comment was rather "triggered" by your personal attack on Duni. Calling him a fool, gay and so on wasn't very helpful either, right ?
Sure, he made some fun out of you, but in a humorous way without any attack or insult towards you. Don't take yourself too serious and the lesson that you hopefully learned (take it easy and stay calm) will be much more valuable for your trip than the answer to your question.
Thais are very forgiving if you make a mistake and you should do the same. You seem to be very impatient and a bit aggressive if things don't work the way you expected. Sorry man, but this might be a daily experience for you in LOS. So take things easy and relax, patience and polteness will go a very long way in Thailand, agressive behaviour and insults won't.
I don't see how an answer to your question might help you preparing your trip or help you in any given situation. So what will change if anybody tells you that 1%, 3%, 5%, 10%, 20%, 30% or even 50% of all Thais do speak English ? You will never know which part of the population you have to deal with and if the guy/girl in front of you actually speaks English !
Guess you have read the forum, googled a bit and are smart enough to know that in the main tourist areas most people who work in the tourist business - like a receptionist at a hotel - may understand English. It's also widely spoken at private hospitals, clinics, dentists, banks, bus stations, travel agents and so on.
I have tried to find an answer to your question but wasn't able to find a specific number. Best answer I found was "English is widely spoken in Bangkok and other major metropolitan areas."
If you are interested in language issues check these links
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=TH
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_map.asp?name=TH
http://www.pro-tran.com/Laender-Information/Thailand.html
As there is often a correlation between education and language skills, these sites might be interesting for you
http://www1.thaimain.org/en/intro/educat.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/th/Education
Additional infos can be found here for example
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/th.html
http://www.thaiembdc.org/aboutthai/index.htm
http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/thailang.htm
And as always, the CIA knows it all
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/th.html
These are just a few examples. If you know how to use Google it should be easy to find an answer to almost all questions that might come up.
BTW, this is the "Thai Women - Opinions & Advice" section. I don't see how your question is related to that, it should be posted at the "General Reports" or "Living in Thailand" section. Or did you mean "What percentage of (female) Thai prostitutes speak English" ?
Finally, what was your second question ?
You asked just one question twice !
PosterLion
11-22-05, 03:52
Dear I Jag,
Please click the following URL provided just for you.
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?p=410461#post410461
poster
PL - I CHECKED on him by posting status - almost all posts related to So America. Nothing outrageous - nothing controversial, just bland.
Personally, I only carry ONE ATM card - it's bad enough keeping track of ONE not TWO. AND I don't carry it except when I need to get CASH. Stays in lock box - when I take it out, I use a neck wallet
PosterLion
11-22-05, 09:55
At the present time, after reflecting about the arrogance portrayed by I JAG, I wish I'd not tried to help at all.
I'd rather him stay in South America and I'd really like him to speak with the South Americans like he spoke to Duni.
The resulting gunshot to the head or knife in the gut our South American brothers would bestow upon him would mean less brainless idiots asking moronic questions here on the Thai board.
Also, I chose Thailand as my place of residence and I don't want morons like I JAG fucking up the place I call home. There're enough ass-wipes just like him visiting this sacred land already.
I won't erase my post on principle and because it ain't the worst advice that could be given to a first-timer.
cheers,
poster
PosterLion
11-24-05, 09:45
Howdy Folks!
I've not written too much about my Thai girlfriend lately and I'm not too sure as to why either. I suppose it's because we've been together for so long without any big problem to report too you and I'm happy to say that is still the case today.
I last spoke about the possibility that my GF wanted to resume working as a "lady night" and I'm pretty sure she did turn a trick or two, but it's of no concern too if she did because I'm quite certain I deserve everything that I get and then some.
There is an old saying I want to tell you, but I'm afraid I can't remember it word for word so I'll adlib and try to convey the point instead.
For every girl that finds a new boyfriend there also exists an old boyfriend that has grown weary of fucking her. Or to put it another way, For every man that finds a new girlfriend there exists and old girlfriend he no longer wants to fuck.
I pity all those that have come before and all those that will come after and the one that is present now, but at least I can say that all the women I have loved are indeed very lucky. It's quite possible that their luckiest day was the day we broke up. Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha Ha Ha Ha.
All relationships have stages. Me and my girl were concluding the first stage of love at the time of my last post. The first stage of most relationships consists of constant sweet talk and sex everyday. After this stage is over most people break-up and that is also true for me, but today I am happy to report that me and my girl have made it to stage two which consists of mutual caring and companionship with a little bit of sex in between.
I rarely make it this far and have high hopes for us as a couple. Maybe this will be the one, meaning, maybe we'll be happy together for a long time. Today I am happy and I'm not worried about tomorrow.
Last week an old customer sent my girlfriend 3,000 Baht via Western Union. It was a nice jesture on his part and I enjoyed the beer and cigarettes immensely. In fact, I enjoyed them so much that I sent him an email expressing her gratitude this very day. I've attached the letter of gratitude and his last letter to my girlfriend for your fun and enjoyment, but first...
Dear Sir, I believe you are not a member of this forum and I hope you do not become one in the future. However, if you do someday read this post then you must understand that I apologize in advance and hope you hold no grudge against me because I hold none against you. At least you can know that many a soul benifited from your misfortune.
Best Regards,
Poster
HIS LAST LETTER
Waanjai,
I don't know whether you read your mails, or if I ever will get a response. You promised to send me an e-mail but you never seem to keep your promises.
Well you may be mad at me, because I did not call for a while or because I did not send the money you needed. But I tried to explain by sms that it was impossible for me to have access to a bank because I was called back to the office that day by my boss and have been travelling since.
Right now I am in Lorient/France and will only be back in the office on Monday next week. I am so busy at the moment that I really don't know where to start. All this makes me sick. I had to see a doctor to check my heart and it really seems I have a problem if I don't slow down soon.
But don't worry, I will survive, because I have to take care of you and I will.
I love you soo much and miss you. I kiss you in my dreams as long as I can not hold you in my arms.
Take care. I will call as soon as possible.
MY GF's LETTER OF GRATITUDE
Theerak,
Thank you so much Theerak for send me. I go Western Union and am so happy. western union give me free glass so have two gift from you Theerak!
I know this short mail and I sorry too much. have to go quik becuse internet have many people wait today. no body happy to much for waiting you know. but have address i promise for you and i happy to have you letter some day soon Theerak.
I miss you. come thailand soon and please take care your heart! i scare for you have problem with heart. i think you work too hard. please theerak slow down ok. i want you happy heart strong heart.
listen me and take care and slow down now
love you
===
Well fellas, it's looking like a beautiful day out my window and I'm thinking about a cold beer and and a cigarette. My GF's getting ready to go to her friends house so I reckon I'll head to the Bier Garden. Maybe I'll see one of ya over there.
Best regards and keep your powder dry,
poster
Poster
Am really happy that you are in Stage 2. Wish you all the best to get to the final stage where the two of you are inseparable.
Duni
Taz Marine
11-24-05, 15:46
I sent him an email expressing her gratitude this very day. Poster,
What kind of kick do you get out of misleading a poor soul that has fallen for a TG? It was kind of funny and sad at the same time. A better letter back would have been you stating how you enjoyed the goods you purchased with his money. At least he would have known the truth and moved on with his life or at least to the next TG. Maybe you felt bad because of his heart condition?
I have a couple girls I email with that I enjoy reading but now I have to think, is it really the girl sending me the emails? Of course I won’t send them a single baht. Their emails are funny and bring a smile to my face and this is why I email them.
Taz
PosterLion
11-25-05, 04:39
Hey Taz,
I'd worry as well Sir, but as long as you're not sending Baht (or even if you are) at least you are not naive. I am not one to pester a fellow for sending a girl a few Baht. I don't have a problem with that because I've done it too. It is normal for a man to want to help a women in distress. I've made the attempt on many occasions and in several countries, but that's another story.
What isn't normal is for a man to lose all reason. On the other hand, maybe it is normal because I am a witness to this type of behavior all too often since moving to LOS. Thailand is a strange place because it is a place where the things that normally don't happen do happen.
For instance, where else in the world could I help a prostitute correspond with her clients, but that is just the half of it. Let me give you some background info regarding the man I emailed today. It is guaranteed to make your jaw drop and then you'll scratch your head in disbelief and say, "Damn, and I thought Dick Johnson was a lost cause."
Before I continue I will admit that I do enjoy sending these mails a little bit. I realize this might make me seem to be a sick perverted individual who has no scruple. Hell mate, I may even be morally bankrupt, but here's the thing. If I don't help her with her mails then someone else will. Since I am the person (maybe a stupid person) that has chosen to shack up with this girl, I figure it is better for me (and well within my rights) to be the one helping her.
Let's get back to the man that reads the mails that I write for her. He has chosen to be deceived more than once. One time I talked with him on the phone and told him the whole story. I ended that conversation by expressing my desire that he not call again. On a separate occasion I sent him a long (very long) email detailing how silly and pathetic he is for continuing to send money to my girlfriend. He wrote me back and said he was shocked and embarrassed, but did he stop sending her money, did he stop calling her on the phone? No and I repeat hell no. The guy is hopeless. He is the perfect example of a jai dee water buffalo.
The Jai Dee Water Buffalo (JDWB) can be a constant irritation for the men that become involved with a bar girl. The JDWB has caused me and my girlfriend all manner of grief. In the beginning the JDWB made me angry because I thought that my GF should cease and desist all communication with men other than myself. A man that has this desire is making a huge mistake. The Bar Girl is afraid to cut her ties with her collection of reliable revenue streams. Deep in her heart she wants to severe the link but it is difficult because she is unable to trust anyone, especially men.
Men come and go, they lie and they cheat and they manipulate. This is not something the Bar Girl learns from a book. The Bar Girl learns this from experience. Words are meaningless to a Bar Girl, except possibly the words, I Love You. When a man says I Love You to a Bar Girl she has good reason to expect the worst. She has heard these words too many times and will not and never will believe them. She believes in the word Baht because Baht has never lied to her. These are a few of the things a Bar Girl learns during her Freshman year at Sukhumvit University.
The JDWB does not cause me grief anymore because I have accepted them as a fact of life. I hope to see the day when my GF can severe her ties with them, but in the meantime I'll enjoy the beers and the cigarettes. Besides, the beer and the cigarettes help me to tolerate the JDWB and tolerate them I shall. They are a fact of life.
In the end it boils down to "mind over matter", because the mind really is over matter. A person can be happy in any circumstance if they just let it (happiness) happen. The knowledge of happiness is planted inside the heart of every man, but most men never realize it because they don't want to believe in happiness. In fact, they are afraid of it.
The most common illness suffered by man is his desire to suffer. The man looks at himself in the mirror everyday and sees the pain inside him. He is somehow certain that there is a way out, if he can only find it. His life is spent searching and searching for the thing that can free him from torment, but he can't find it because he is afraid. He is afraid he won't know what to do once he finds it. He is afraid to be happy.
Suffering is tangible, after all, it's always been with him and he's never been able to shake it. He clings to it in the same way a Bar Girl clings to her Baht. It's all he and she have ever known and both of them are afraid to try something different...
It's a sad story isn't it?
poster...
PosterLion
11-25-05, 04:49
----- Me too -----
Taz Marine
11-25-05, 05:48
Alright Poster,
I can’t understand the overwhelming power that TGs have on men like Dick Johnson and this fellow that is sending your girl (you) money. If you have talked to him and emailed him with response of his embarrassment and he is still sending money, something is definitely wrong with this guy. So now that you’re encouraging him by writing back, which I find the letter to be humorous and authentic to a TG writing, what will happen when he comes back to Thailand to see her? What does your girl think about the letters back or does she know about them?
Taz
The Traveler
11-25-05, 20:25
Poster,
your assessment, that girls don't believe in words but only in cash might be true for the vast majority, but of course not for all.
During my last trip I spent 4-5 days with a little cutie who just entered the scene less than 2 months ago. She was a virgin before that and even if you may say these are the usual stories these girls tend to tell their customers - yep, I have heard them before too - I believe it's true this time. I usually listen very carefully to their stories and keep asking for several issues at different occasions. If it's a lie the main part of the story will be the same but the tiny details will differ, but no such thing with her. So she is either a very good liar or telling the truth. Taking in count her personality, character and attitude I tend to believe her. Haven't found a hair in the soup till now.
I had no intentions whatsoever to stay in contact with her, so I waved her goodbye when I left. But a couple of days later back home in good (c)old europe I thought it might be nice to have her with me to keep me warm (and busy) at night.
So I called her and told her to stop working and go back home. I didn't promised anything, haven't paid a single baht so far but she immediately agreed and went back home two days later. That's what I call trust, passion and the power of words.
You might think that I am a moron and that I can't check where she is, wrong. First you can hear typical sounds like buffalos, cows, ducks, chicken, crickets or machines like water pumps and "lot tai na" in the background. Second, I also requested a local phone number (at the mayor's house, her neighbour) with an area code. So I call that number on random and she got to pick it up. If she can't do that within a couple of minutes she isn't there. It's too far from BKK or Pattaya, so she won't go back and forth. She also never knows when I will call again. Sure, she could have a Thai BF there but this is not very likely as she hasn't been home for quite a while and parents usually have an eye on that as they don't know that she has worked at a bar . They only know about her former job in a beauty salon and still believe that she is a virgin.
Anyway, as I am not sending money I won't loose anything but I will take her with me next time which will be in about two months from now.
So bottom line is, she got no money from me - only my word that I would like to take her with me next time. But she did as requested and stopped working immediately, loosing lots of money as she could make a lot during high season being a real cutie with a great attitude.
BTW, don't think that I am a cheap charlie. This whole thing is also a test and if she doesn't fail and pass it, she will be rewarded for it. But of course, I do not tell her as I want to see what she will do, if she is trustworthy, money driven or just likes me. Her aunt already told her that I should send some money but I refused as this would ruin my test and nobody is allowed to interfere or tell me what I have to do. So far she is really great, never asked for anything. Will see how things develop.
Taz Marine
11-25-05, 22:34
Man Traveler, I don’t think anyone can pass that test. Isn’t she working in the first place to make money for her or her family? Then you come along tell her not to work which means no income. I’ve heard love can be stronger than money, but lets face it, you need money to survive. I think her actions this far should show her true feelings for you. If you’re not going to be back for 2 months and money runs out what is she to do? If she works because she has to eat, will she fail your test?
It’s kind of a cool test and I guess it’s necessary with TG. Keep us posted with the results of the test. Are any of the pics you posted in the picture board of her?
The Traveler
11-25-05, 22:38
Horatio,
you have misread my post.
First I didn't took her virginity. Her first customer at the bar did. She had about 10 customers in total before we met.
BTW, that is probably less than most farang girls had at any given disco back home.
Second, I am not toying or fooling around with her. She is great and I want to make sure that money isn't the driving factor. As I said, it's a test. I intend to stay with her as long as it works out, which may be a very long time. In short, I intend to build up a real relationship, but who knows what will come in between. I am realistic, careful and know what I am up to.
I don't know about her expectations, but I didn't imply anything and I am not responsible for what she might think. I am only responsible for what I say and do. If our expectations don't match she is free to go back to work at a bar again. She won't loose anything, I am a fair guy and would compensate for her lost income, so it's a WIN-WIN situation for her, .of course she doesn't know that.
Why I ask her to stop working ?
Quite simple, I want her to be HIV tested and she has to stay out of biz for at least 3 months for the result being conclusive. I don't like to use condoms with my GFs but have to know for sure that she isn't HIV positive.
Why did she stop working ?
She was happy to stop as she didn't like it. Most girls hate to earn their money that way. Did you really expect that the girls love to fuck around with mostly unattractive guys who often give shit about them and just want to get rid of their sperm, putting themselve at danger every night, never knowing if the guy is a sadist or will cheat her ?
I guess she trusts me because in the 4-5 days we spent together she saw that I am straight forward, easy going and don't lie. She probably build up some feelings for me (having tears in her eyes when I left), seeing that I treat her well and am generous too. Or maybe I just fuck very good, who knows :D
Don't worry, if she will really be promoted to GF status she won't have to work anymore, probably for the rest of her life. I usually take very good care of my girls, even after being seperated. But I will only be generous to people who do not aim for my money.
It's just like I do at bars and gogos. If girls are pushy they don't get a single baht, but those who are nice and don't request anything will get lady drinks and very good tips. I want people being nice to me because they like me and not because I pay them.
P.S. As far as I remember Jackson once complained about quoting complete posts. It doesn't make sense to me either if your post is close to the one you refer to and do not give specific answers to different parts of a post.
The Traveler
11-25-05, 22:52
Taz,
I know that everybody needs money to survive, but believe me I know what I do.
I know that she saved most of the money she made so far and that her parents can make a living. So all she got to do is going back, live with her family which she missed a lot and spend a part of her savings. I know it will last the mentioned 2 months and of course I will pay it back to her but if I would tell her right now or send money to her it wouldn't be a test anymore.
I usually talk to the girls about their families, why they came to Pattaya and what they will do when going back home and so on. She just started to work like that because of her aunt, who pushed her into it. She prefers to work in a regular job back home and if it wasn't a lie she could do so now.
Anyway, I never said it will be easy for her (and I don't want it to be easy) but if she passes it's like winning the lottery in a big way.
Traveller
I accidently deleted my post. I am glad that I misread your post and you are not toying with her. I thought you said that you had taken her virginity, but I see where I misread that. You often say that you pay a girl what you think is right after the fact. I would be afraid that could lead to misunderstandings, expecially if the time being paid for is a couple of months. I do recognize that you have more experience in these matters which leads you to take different actions than I would. I was only in Thailand for only 2 months. I still dont see why you are testing her and what you hope to gain from the test.
Of course I dont think "the girls love to fuck around with mostly unattractive guys who often give shit about them and just want to get rid of their sperm...." I do think that most of them choose to become bar girls for economic reasons. In my thinking that is an entirely logical reason.
On a different note, I have enjoyed many of the pictures you have posted. Good luck to you in your travels.
Regards Horatio
P.S. It didnt seem right to me to quote your whole post either. I was replying to so much of it though that it seemed easier to quote the whole thing.
The Traveler
11-26-05, 09:49
Horatio,
correct, girls sell their bodies for economical reasons but that doesn't mean that any relationship with them should only be based on money. If she really likes or even loves me, money shouldn't be an issue.
So why do I test her ?
Simple, to see if money is an issue or not. No girl who is after your money - except very smart ones who do think in large periods - would go home with nothing at hand than your statement that you would like to stay with her. Would a money hungry girl spend her savings just to wait for your return ? I think no.
What do I gain ?
My gain is knowledge. I will know that she isn't after my money and I will also know that she trusts me. Furthermore I will trust her to some extent and since trust is the basement for a relationship this is a very important issue.
The Traveler
11-26-05, 10:27
Are any of the pics you posted in the picture board of her?
Taz,
nope, I won't post any pics of her. I never post pics of regulars, students or girls I still want to stay with. I only post pics of P4P and if nude only with blurred faces. Only very very few, who deserve it or which can't be harmed by these pics will be displayed.
I also never post pics of girls who I promised to not forward the pics I made. Many girls have heard of these websites and worry about it. A given word is a given word, no matter what. I am old fashioned, I always stick to a given word, it's a question of honour and a matter of trust. I can't cheat on people who trust me.
But don't worry, you will see her when we will meet next time in LOS.
Regarding her looks, she beats almost all girls I have posted so far. As far as I remember only two of them might look as good as her and I only know one girl who can be compared to her attitude.
Another member of this board, who had spend my last weekend in Pattaya with me, had seen her and immediately fall for her. We went to all bar areas at soi 2,3,6,7 and 8 (where I saw at least 3 girls who I would have taken) to get him a girl, but he only had her on his mind. He even was so obsessed with her that he dared to ask me if I would mind if he takes her or if we would do a threesome with her. What a question, of course I do mind ! It's something different if we would go to a soapie or pick a girl at a bar together for a 3some but how does something like that comes to his mind ? I told him he should ask her, knowing that she would decline. Later on, when we walked at Walking Street he constantly tried to grab her hand. I didn't interfere and she, being the nice girl she is, kept smiling but tried to get loose all the time. He didn't get the message and when we were back home she told me that she doesn't like him at all.
His attempt was absolutely inappropriate, especially since he loved to compare himself to others, how they dress and their bad manners. He also seemed to be very proud of having taken a language course at Chula for a couple of weeks. He mentioned Chula as often as possible and ran around with that ring you get.
I would never take a GF or ex-GF of a friend. I even wouldn't take any of his ST girls, at least not on purpose. There is another member of this board who I know has a girl at the Soi 3 bars. She is quite cute with a very good attitude. I do like her but I would never want to have sex with her. In case I might barfine her (which I haven't done) I would only do so to help her (in case she might be sick) or to have a nice companion to go out with. There are so many girls around and you will never know how the guys might feel about it. I believe it's harder to find a friend than finding a girl for some sex, especially in LOS.
So in short, this guy has lost me.
Little Wing
11-26-05, 11:09
Traveller, Poster, Thank you for your various recent posting. I am pleased to see some new threads with useful insight into LTRs. Keep it coming :)
I am sightly surprised that an old hand like Traveller would do what he described he did with that apparently great TG.
It is obviously OK to encourage a TG to go home and leave the bar life, as it is plainly a poor environment to spend your early adult years. However, I wonder if in this case there is not an element of projecting Western values on a Thai mindset.
Thai girls go away from home and send money to the family back at the farm. This is what they have been raised to believe is the proper behaviour. If that means working as a bar girl, then there is a slight embarassment connected, but the money is better than working in a factory. Most families turn a blind eye as long as the money keeps flowing, and the girl is gaining a lot of face by sending all that cash home.
Traveller seems to have exercised gentle persuasion to send the girl home in exchange for very little, as far as he told us. That is tantamount to putting pressure on the girl to accept losing face coming home empty-handed with a foggy notion of what might come ahead.
I wonder if there is not a little tentation here to "play God" with that girl, with the clean conscience of pushing her to do the right thing for her life and the intention of rewarding her good behaviour. I know Traveller enough to believe entirely that he will act responsibly and none of this is in any way a criticism, but I can't help finding what I see in that game a bit perverse. Maybe there is more to the story than what he told us already.
As for the "she must love me for myself and not for my money", this is also surprising from someone who is so knowledgeable about Thailand, has lived there and speaks the language fluently. It is clear to me that money is entirely part of the concept of love in the Thai mentality, and all thing being equal, a Thai woman will love you more if you have more money. And your money is essentially important for her to gain face with her family, not for herself and her own spending. The more so if she is from poor upbringing.
This is very difficult for us Westerners to understand and even more to live with. We have a concept of love that is exclusive of money. We want to be loved for ourselves, including for our good looks, our wit, our sence of humour, our wordly ways, but not our wealth.
I am looking forward to debating about these points with Traveller, if he wishes to do so in this thread or privately, as I could very well see myself in a similar situation with a TG at some point.
I have to say that The Travelers hustle and conversation must be damn good to get accomplished what he has done here! :D :) I also believe it is a great test for all the reasons he has stated in his posts. He gave her a line of rope and now we will just wait and see if she hangs herself with it. In my eyes this is called "being on your game". As far as the girl goes, it is all a matter of personal choice, and in this case she elected to make the choice she made. She was not mislead, deceived, or manipulated. This is a girl The Traveler is interested in, and now he is finding out where her heart truly lies. She has spoken and now he awaits to see if her actions will follow her words.
I honestly believe The Traveler should change his profession, move back to Thailand and start coaching mongers and others on the art of conversation, hustle and how to get the girls without spending a dime. Your damn good Trav, keep up the good work. :D :) Traveler The Teacher! :)
U seem 2 b top dog
What countries have visited ?
The Traveler
11-26-05, 19:39
Seydlitz,
I rather believe that you see the whole thing from a western or merely tourist point of view.
I agree that most girls feel the need to support their families back home. There is no social welfare for the farmers and they rely on the support of their grown up children. But I disagree with your assessment, that there is just a "slight embarassment" connected to that kind of work. I guess only a man can make such a statement.
Imagine to be an innocent girl from a farm, who hasn't seen anything of the world, still being a virgin and now being forced - by circumstances, family members or both - to sell your body. It's like standing on top of a cliff and making a step forward. You will know that you can never return to the previous status and that you have reached the bottom of Thai society. This is much more than just "slight embarassment". Many girls can't handle it, plus the constant pressure from family, bar owners and the customers.
Family tells them that money is needed - and who wants to see his/her own family suffer ?
Bar (gogo or MP) owners tell them how to dress - they often don't like to dress sexy - how many lady drinks and barfines they have to "generate". They also charge them for almost everything, may it be a fight at the premise or just being late a couple of minutes.
Then the customers who often force them to drink alcohol (have heard it many times that customers insinst on lady drinks must be alcohol), expect them to fuck them till they are dried out, want them to do BBBJ, CIM, anal or whatever, even if they don't like it, feel disgusted by it or are scared to get infected. And all that for just a couple of baht. They also want "trouble free" girls, who agree to everything, don't have an own mind and do not change moods as humans sometimes do.
And finally police who will put some pressure on them like they do at Beach Rd. right now.
This isn't an easy life and many can't stand it. Or why do you think so many start drinking alcohol, cutting themselves or doing all sorts of drugs ?
Maybe the girls like me just because I DO NOT put pressure on them. I am easy, never request BBBJ, CIM, anal or anything else they don't want to do and maybe that's why they give it to me. I always treat them like I would treat my GF, take care, am interested in their opinions and respect them. This is often something they hunger for as nobody really does respect them. So when with me, they (hopefully) don't feel like a prostitute, feel secure and finally can lean back and relax. They reward me for it with total GFE and exceptional performance as they would do with their BF.
The girls don't gain face either, just by sending money back home. If they are cute and therefore able to make good money it will better it a bit, but the vast majority doesn't make that good money and the bad talking behind their back still goes on.
I would like to know who told you that ? Where does your knowledge come from ? How many times have you been upcountry and did you ever live there with the poor farmers ? I did and since many people didn't know that I understand Khmen and Lao as well they spoke openly in my presence. So I know what I am talking about.
Regarding my skills and being persuasive, you should know better than anybody else here that I can be very convincing without putting pressure on the girls.
Of course you remember that Gogo girl I sent to Koh Samui for you. She used and risked her savings to pay for the ticket. Surely, I told her that I guarantee for it and would have given the money back to her in case you whouldn't have paid it back to her. But she had nothing than my word, no contract, no signed agreement, nothing, not even knowing if I will still be there on her return Was it also tantamount to putting pressure on her ?
Your girl had to made a choice, just as mine. She could have said no, absolutely up to her, just as "On the Go" said.
Furthermore my girl didn't lost face when coming home empty handed. Nobody expected her to come home with lots of money. As I said, her parents don't even know that she has worked at a bar. She used to work in a beauty saloon for about 3 months with her auntie who was putting some pressure on her to work in a bar. Nobody else besides her does know it.
There is also no foggy notion of what might be ahead. I didn't promised anything, just said I would like to stay with her and take her back home with me. That's it.
I also don't "play God" with her. I didn't order anything, didn't command her to do this or that. All I did was naming a sole condition if she wants to be with me. It's still her choice. She may accept or reject it, up to her.
It might be clear to you that money is entirely a part of the concept of love in the Thai mentality and that a Thai woman will love you more if you have more money but even if you might be disappointed, I got to tell you that not all Thais know about it. You probably think like that because you only got involved with P4P but never with a regular girl. Sure, everybody likes money, it makes life easier, but not all Thais choose their partners depending on their income and wealth but rather on their character, attitude, charm and the way they are treated.
I also disagree that money is essentially important for the girls to gain face within their families. It's important to feed younger sisters and brothers and to send them to school, to pay hospitals and medicine, all sorts of bills and paying back some debt. In short, to make a living.
They won't gain face or respect but might be treated a bit more better but not because of respect. Their families will still see them with the same eyes and have the same opinions, maybe they are greatful but the main reason is, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Sure, the girls were brought up in a different environment within a different culture, but they still have the same strenghts and weaknesses we have.
Especially the young ones still have dreams and follow the voice of their heart, but no matter what age, they only look for somewone who might take care for them, treats them nice and if possible truly loves them. I am quite certain that a rich asshole can't get a Thai, at least not for a long time. She will run away from him as soon as she got enough of him. Thais are proud, do not under estimate it.
Don't worry, as we both know each other, I know you didn't intend to criticize me and got your post the right way. Knowing that my English isn't as eloquent as yours I apologize and hope that you will forgive me if my response might sound "agressive" in part. But please allow me to question your knowledge and understanding of the issues in question.
The Traveler
11-26-05, 20:02
U seem 2 b top dog
What countries have visited ?
Liucio,
Portugal, Spain, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Greece, Poland, Great Britain, Danmark, Finland, Sweden, Czech Republic, Romania, Hungary, Turkey, Russia
Marokko, Tunisia, Kenia, Tanzania, South Africa
Had planned Egypt for this year but changed plans due to personal reasons, but it's on top of my list.
Brazil, Paraguay, Ecuador, Venezuela, USA
Sri Lanka, Maledives, Seychelles, Myanmar (former Birma), Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea, Indonesia and of course our beloved LOS.
Never made it to the Phillippines. Already had a ticket in my pocket a few years ago but ran into a very cute Thai and threw away the ticket. I didn't regret it though :)
The Traveler
11-26-05, 20:16
... how to get the girls without spending a dime...
On the Go,
thanks for your kind words and I agree to everything you said, it's her choice and now actions must follow to prove her words.
But I disagree that I get the girls without spending a dime.
In fact I usually pay more than most others, but not because I have to but rather because I want to.
As already said, I don't talk about money and never agree on a fixed amount beforehand, I only pay depending on performance.
On the Go,
thanks for your kind words and I agree to everything you said, it's her choice and now actions must follow to prove her words.
But I disagree that I get the girls without spending a dime. In fact I usually pay more than most others, but not because I have to but rather because I want to.
As already said, I don't talk about money and never agree on a fixed amount beforehand, I only pay depending on performance.
The point I was making Trav was that you are able to get the girls based on the way you present yourself, and the way you are able to communicate with them. Yes, you're generous toward the ones you feel are deserving, but it is on your terms, and it is not expected of you by the girls you have befriended. Whatever type of support you decide to provide them, be it financially or otherwise, it is done out of the graciousness of your heart.
The Traveler
11-26-05, 20:34
On the Go,
yep, that's right.
Traveller,
I read your post with great interest, and I am glad that you took my view the right way. As I indicated myself, there was no hint of criticism in my post, just an expression of curiosity at what I saw to be an unexpected behaviour.
On the "slight embarassment" thing, I meant it with a huge dose of understatement. I know that there are heavy social stigma that attach to being a prostitute, even in Thailand.
I gladly allow you to question my knowledge and understanding of the issues in question. As you rightly said, I cannot and do not claim much firsthand knowledge of the Thai mentality, but I confess a high interest in the subject and I have for a long time already researched the matter, talking to friends who are long-time residents of LOS, and also discussing, albeit less in depth, with some of the TGs I happened to share my bed with.
It is true also that broad statements like we can have in this forum are likely to be vastly inaccurate overgeneralisations when applied to a nation of tens of millions of people.
An interesting piece of reading I would recommend (and from which I draw some of the notions I had put forth in my previous post) is: "Good medicine for Thailand Fever"? ISBN: 1-887521-48-8. It is a particularly good read because it is written from the dual point of view of a Farang man and a Thai woman, in both English and Thai languages. It deals with issues like family, sex, money, love, marriage etc.
I read it last summer together with my Thai GF who expressed as much amazement at being explained the strange thinking of the Farang as I was with the Thai. So there must be something right about what they wrote.
Anyhow, let's just see how things unfold with your girl, if you are kind enough to keep us posted about her.
The Traveler
11-27-05, 00:14
Seydlitz,
I'll keep you informed or better, I might visit you (together with her) next time
PosterLion
11-27-05, 06:09
what will happen when he comes back to Thailand to see her? What does your girl think about the letters back or does she know about them?
Taz (and anyone else interested),
She knows I am writing these emails because she asked me to write them. You might wonder why I agreed to write them since she is my girlfriend. Well, There's more than one reason/answer and it's not easy to explain, but I'll try.
First, I really do care for this girl. I'm not sure if it's love anymore. It's certainly not the "I've fallen in love with her", kind of love. There are certain qualities (or traits) she possesses that still cause me to question the viability of a long term relationship with her. I've been with her ten months and this qualifies as long term for me already. I've never had much success at keeping with the same girl for longer than a year.
This doesn't mean that I never loved the women that I've known in my life. I'm absolutely grateful to have known most of them. So what is my problem? It's not easy to say because it's not easy to admit my deficiencies and there are many. I guess the worst thing about my personality/heart is that I am very selfish and don't care enough about other people in many situations. In other words, I think of me first and it's probably the thing that will keep me out of heaven if there is one.
It's because of my deficiencies and because I care for her that I decided to let her keep her ties with her "good johns". I let her contact two of her best johns so that she could tell them her and I broke off our relations. Now I write emails for her and I also gave these guys my mailing address so that they can send hand written love letters. They have both forgiven her and they have resumed their silly ways. At least she'll have these guys if her and I actually do split up.
If any of these guys return to Thailand I will let her see them so that they will be happy. Also, and probably most importantly, she'll be happy because she will not feel as if she has treated them too badly. Don't laugh!
Thai culture is very strange to those with little understanding of it. I will not attempt to boast that I know a lot either, but I do understand why she wants to string them along.
In her mind it would be a bigger sin to cease relations with these two guys because they have sent her an awful lot of money. They have been a very significant force in her life on some occasions because she has always been able to rely on them when she had a true emergency. One guy saved her ass when she racked up a big debt gambling with cards. It had gotten to the point where she owed too many people TOO MUCH money.
If she were to turn her back on them when they come to visit Thailand she would feel guilty of commiting one of the biggest sins in Thai culture, nee-ra-kun. A person is nee-ra-kun when they do not honor Gat-dtan-yuu. So what is Gat-dtan-yuu? It is a feeling towards someone that has made incomparable contributions to their life. This feeling is most generally held for familiy members such as the father and mother and also includes teachers. In certain cases other people are considered to have this status when a person (in this case my girlfriend) feels a great debt to someone and my girlfriend feels a great debt to these two individuals. It is not easy for the casual Westerner (even myself) to understand.
Now you know what will happen and why. :)
poster
Taz Marine
11-27-05, 07:16
Thanks for the update PosterLion. Your right, Thai culture is very strange and TGs are even stranger. Let me run this by you and tell me if it is possible:
What if your girl cuts the ties with her johns by apologizing and paying back (if she could) some of the money to them? Will this change the johns status of gatdtanyuu and prevent her from committing neerakun.
I know you said one of your reasons to let her keep the johns is so if you split up she still has them. But if you were sure you were in love and wanted to keep for life would this option work?
PosterLion
11-27-05, 12:27
An interesting piece of reading I would recommend (and from which I draw some of the notions I had put forth in my previous post) is: "Good medicine for Thailand Fever"? ISBN: 1-887521-48-8. It is a particularly good read because it is written from the dual point of view of a Farang man and a Thai woman, in both English and Thai languages. It deals with issues like family, sex, money, love, marriage etc.
Seydlitz,
I read this book with my girlfriend plus I've read it two or three times by myself. I've also shown the book to a Bar Girl that I frequent for short time escapes, but I've yet to show it to a regular girl. That said, both the ladies indicatied very (very) vigorously that the information about Thai women and customs is highly accurate as they are stated in this book. You may have noticed that my last post concerning nee-ra-kun was paraphrasing (if not plagurizing) this book.
Anyway, I recommend this book to anyone with a sincere desire to understand (Thai Women), a task may not be possible.
Trav,
I understand the desire to perform some sort of test to determine a girl's sincerity. However, I would advise caution for two reasons: 1) What goes around comes around. You can be certain the girl knows you are testing her and she might later hold a grudge because of it. It is like a slap in the face for a sincere person to know they are being tested for their sincerity. 2) If you make her bend too far she might break. A person that has been selling themselves has a tendency to believe they are a bad person. Sometimes (if not many times) this feeling turns into self loathing, especially if she fails your first test because it's simply too much to ask.
You might not have a problem with this girl if she has been working for such a short time (two months), but what if she hasn't been 100% truthful with you? You could say that that is the point of your test and then easily shrug her off if she fails to pass. Maybe that is okay for you, but you might consider that no one is perfect in any situation.
A person indicated that it might be easy to play God with tests such as this and I can verify it too be true. I've put too many a lady through sincerity tests and it is easy to set an unrealistic standard. She might begin to feel as if you are asking her, "How high and how far are you prepared too jump for me?" I've let myself get carried away like this before and it's not good for the girl or for yourself. Be careful what you ask of her. If she passes your test she may spring her own test on you after you have fallen deeply in love.
Someone once wrote some good advice on how one should conduct themself when sitting at the table of a King. When you are invited to sit at the table of a king, be careful what you chose for your dinner, because the day will come when you are expected to return the favor.
I know I'm not easy to follow and/or understand sometimes, but I believe this advice pertinent to your situation.
poster
PosterLion
11-27-05, 12:39
What if your girl cuts the ties with her johns by apologizing and paying back (if she could) some of the money to them? Will this change the johns status of gatdtanyuu and prevent her from committing neerakun.
I'm not sure how to answer this because I am not Thai nor am I either of the two men that are in question. I assume (maybe wrongly) that it would be up to each man to judge whether an act of repayment (partially or in full) would prevent her from committing nee-ra-kun.
One thing I didn't speak about that should be considered is that my girlfriend was helped when she needed it and not at either man's leisure. Even if she were to pay back what she was given it would not and should not be considered an equivalent act. Therefore, she would still be required to consider herself indebted to them.
The Traveler
11-27-05, 18:15
...In certain cases other people are considered to have this status when a person (in this case my girlfriend) feels a great debt to someone and my girlfriend feels a great debt to these two individuals. It is not easy for the casual Westerner (even myself) to understand...
Posterlion,
what's so hard to understand it ? Do you never feel grateful for someone who helped you out of shit ?
For me this is quite simple, but maybe only people who aren't selfish can understand it. :)
Regarding my potential future GF :
You - like others - make it much more complicated than it is.
Why should she later hold a grudge on me for testing her ? She knows where she comes from and she completely understands that I have my doubts.
I don't worry if she might spring a test on me later on. What can happen ? If I wouldn't be able to pass that test and if she decides to leave me because of it, we obviously don't fit. So better find out early.
I also did not ask her "How high and how far are you prepared too jump for me?". I simply set a condition, period. If you like to get a drivers license you also have to pass a test and qualify for it. It's really that easy.
Furthermore I am not as "stupid" as your drawn picture of me. I neither set unrealistic standards nor do I expect her to make a precision landing. We all move in margins, don't we ? Please don't forget that I really do know what I do, ask her for and what I can expect of her. I completely understand that she isn't a machine but rather a human being with needs and dreams.
I virtually grew up with Thais and having spend over 20yrs with them should qualify for some understanding. I am definitely none of these guys who live in LOS but actually don't live with Thais but only in their tourist/farang bubble.
I have spend lots of time upcountry with the families of my ex-GFs, have worked with them and know about their lifes from first hand experiences, not just a story from a book. These books you refer to are often like a horoscope to me, everybody is able to find some "truth" in it for himself/herself.
Look at yourself, you live in a bubble. Your contacts to Thais are limited to people who work in the sex industry. Where have you been ? What do you know about the real life of the people around you or in the rural areas ? Ever went to "Nong Bok Wen" or "Wung Nam Yen" or any similar place ? Or do you only hang out in BKK (Nana, Beergarden etc) and maybe a weekend in Pattaya ? Believe me, you don't know much about Thais and Thai society, you completely depend on what your GF tells you plus these sort of books.
And lets not forget the language barrier, do you really understand the meaning of "nam tjai" or similar expressions. I often find it quite hard to translate the meaning of some of these words to foreigners. And why you don't try to build up any relations to people with regular jobs, so called middle class Thais ?
Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the input I get from you, Seydlitz or anybody else. I don't see it as criticism but just another opinion or additional thoughts about that matter. Please do not see me as an arrogant guy too who believes to know it all. I think about the things you guys say (in case I haven't thought of it before) but you got to ask yourself what do you really know about this situation and where your "info" comes from.
Also you haven't the slightest idea of the character of that girl. You may have an idea of my character even though we do not "really" know each other as our experiences with each other are quite limited to a few meetings in a very special environment. So any judgement about that relationship can only be based on assumtions and guesswork.
Traveler, you talk about this new girl, but have you forgotten you have a steady GF in BKK who works for TG?
Or is she now to be referred to as an ex GF ?
Or are you now going to have 2 regular GFs in BKK?
that would leave very little room for mongering with your friends........
Traveler, you talk about this new girl, but have you forgotten you have a steady GF in BKK who works for TG?
Or is she now to be referred to as an ex GF ?
Or are you now going to have 2 regular GFs in BKK?
that would leave very little room for mongering with your friends........
GREAT GREAT POST 1BALL BUT I THOUGHT HE HAD YOU ALSO! (LOL!) The Traveler will have a ball and chain around his ankles!. He will be a home body from now on, so do not expect to see him 1Ball and friends. You might as well not even waste the time to call him as the answer will be "I can't talk now guys or who are you?!"
PosterLion
11-27-05, 21:04
what's so hard to understand it ? Do you never feel grateful for someone who helped you out of shit ?
For me this is quite simple, but maybe only people who aren't selfish can understand it.
I can take the selfish comment, no problem, but you need to remind yourself (as you did me and the MOB) that it's easy for you because of your 20 years of experience.
Regarding my potential future GF :
You - like others - make it much more complicated than it is.
I've given tests to girls before and my current stance is that it's less complicated without a test.
Why should she later hold a grudge on me for testing her ? She knows where she comes from and she completely understands that I have my doubts.
Maybe she won't and that is of course the best case. I merely suggested that you take care in the administration and content of the test, because maybe she will care.
I don't worry if she might spring a test on me later on. What can happen ? If I wouldn't be able to pass that test and if she decides to leave me because of it, we obviously don't fit. So better find out early.
I was trying to point out that her test might come much later, which invalidates the notion of finding out early
I also did not ask her "How high and how far are you prepared too jump for me?". I simply set a condition, period. If you like to get a drivers license you also have to pass a test and qualify for it. It's really that easy.
Again, I was suggesting that you take care in setting the condition. Many women like to feel a certain sense of romance and I don't think many women want to feel like they are applying for a drivers license when starting a love relationship.
Furthermore I am not as "stupid" as your drawn picture of me. I neither set unrealistic standards nor do I expect her to make a precision landing. We all move in margins, don't we ? Please don't forget that I really do know what I do, ask her for and what I can expect of her. I completely understand that she isn't a machine but rather a human being with needs and dreams.
Dear Sir, if you believe that I portrayed you as "stupid" then I suggest you check yourself and try for a little Jai Yen Yen, because something other than my "suggested help" is bothering you. Perhaps the new girl didn't pick up the phone? ;)
I virtually grew up with Thais and having spend over 20yrs with them should qualify for some understanding. I am definitely none of these guys who live in LOS but actually don't live with Thais but only in their tourist/farang bubble.
I have spend lots of time upcountry with the families of my ex-GFs, have worked with them and know about their lifes from first hand experiences, not just a story from a book. These books you refer to are often like a horoscope to me, everybody is able to find some "truth" in it for himself/herself.
I recall that you have 20 years experience in Thailand. I also recall that the only place I've ever seen you is in "their tourist/farang bubble". As a matter of fact, the last time we spoke was at the Bier Garden and you where planning to travel to Pattaya the next day. By the way, did you or did you not find your new girl inside the "tourist/farang bubble" that you just referenced?
Look at yourself, you live in a bubble. Your contacts to Thais are limited to people who work in the sex industry. Where have you been ? What do you know about the real life of the people around you or in the rural areas ? Ever went to "Nong Bok Wen" or "Wung Nam Yen" or any similar place ? Or do you only hang out in BKK (Nana, Beergarden etc) and maybe a weekend in Pattaya ? Believe me, you don't know much about Thais and Thai society, you completely depend on what your GF tells you plus these sort of books.
I look at myself everyday sir, even when driving in a loaded down van with my first girlfriend and thirteen of her family members to some town (don't remember the name and the name is not important) on the coast near Pattaya, but not Pattaya. It was there that I and the other 14 people shopped in the market for snacks. Afterwards I took this stately (middle class) crowd to eat dinner.
When dinner was finished we retired to the beach house the eldest sister rented (I believe she also paid for the van) and it was there that this group of 15 folks (14 of them from Phrae) slept the night away. By the way, there were three others sleeping in the bed I slept in. Although I know this does not equal your 20 years of virtually growing up with the Thais, it does provide a reasonable amount of evidence that I do not reside in the bubble as you suggested.
And lets not forget the language barrier, do you really understand the meaning of "nam tjai" or similar expressions. I often find it quite hard to translate the meaning of some of these words to foreigners. And why you don't try to build up any relations to people with regular jobs, so called middle class Thais?
I believe you are being truthful regarding to the level of effort required to explain the Thai expression of "nam tjai" being that you made no attempt to "enlighten" us. I am more than certain that I don't completely understand "nam tjai", but I am making an effort. My understanding of "nam jai" is that it is somewhat equivalent to the term "generosity" as defined in the English Language. However, I am inclined to believe that the meaning of "generosity does not fully explain "nam jai" as it is understood by the Thais.
I know about 20 people that hold regular jobs in Thailand. I know one of the editors of Front Magazine. I know a translator that works for Image magazine. I know a theatre actor that is nothing short of famous within the circle he caters too. I've been to more than one of his shows and at one of said shows he welcomed me to the audience as a gesture of good will. I have been backstage at the Bangkok Theatre Festival with producers, writers, and members of light and sound crew. It is possible that many people don't consider actors and editors and writers as people with regular jobs, but I do.
Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the input I get from you, Seydlitz or anybody else. I don't see it as criticism but just another opinion or additional thoughts about that matter. Please do not see me as an arrogant guy too who believes to know it all. I think about the things you guys say (in case I haven't thought of it before) but you got to ask yourself what do you really know about this situation and where your "info" comes from.
You are correct that I've never criticized you nor do I desire to begin now, but I will administor you one correction (maybe a correction is a critique after all), I know where my "info" comes from... and that is first hand experience.
Also you haven't the slightest idea of the character of that girl. You may have an idea of my character even though we do not "really" know each other as our experiences with each other are quite limited to a few meetings in a very special environment. So any judgement about that relationship can only be based on assumtions and guesswork.
Again, you are correct and it would also be correct to add that I never once make reference to your girl's character, but I did suggest (hypothetically and not factually), that if she were not telling the whole truth it might change the frame of reference you thought she to have and that is why I merely advised you to be careful in the "administration and content" of your test. In essence, everything I said was in consideration of your new girl's feelings.
Now that I've added some paint to my potrait, I'll turn this forum back over to you. Also, I hereby serve notice that any forthcoming apologizies are hereby accepted in advance.
poster
The Traveler
11-27-05, 21:40
Traveler, you talk about this new girl, but have you forgotten you have a steady GF in BKK who works for TG?
Or is she now to be referred to as an ex GF ?
Or are you now going to have 2 regular GFs in BKK?
that would leave very little room for mongering with your friends........
1ball,
no, yes and no, in that order.
I didn't forget my (ex)-GF who works for TG but she started to get clingy, asked about marriage even though I told her straight away from the beginning that I don't want and can't marry her. Time to bail out.
Don't worry, I will still have enough time to monger with my friends but being the nice guy that I am, I probably will just hang out with you guys and not take any girls (if no stunner crosses my way of course :))
I guess you still remember my time management skills during my last trip, that won't vanish.
The Traveler
11-27-05, 22:45
Poster,
it's a bit lenghty, but I will answer your questions
I can take the selfish comment, no problem, but you need to remind yourself (as you did me and the MOB) that it's easy for you because of your 20 years of experience.
Good, you should do so as you called yourself being selfish.
BTW, I hope you saw the smiley and know why I placed it there.
I've given tests to girls before and my current stance is that it's less complicated without a test.
So we differ in that. You also do not care that your current GF fucks other guys, but I do.
Maybe she won't and that is of course the best case. I merely suggested that you take care in the administration and content of the test, because maybe she will care.
Neither the administration nor the content of the test contains anything bad and if she cares - or better being offended by it (guess that's what you indicate) - it's her prob. I do not discuss that condition. She is free to take it or to leave it.
I was trying to point out that her test might come much later, which invalidates the notion of finding out early
Time is relative. Even though it might not be in the very first days of our relation, it still will be "earlier" in case we should find out later that we don't fit.
Again, I was suggesting that you take care in setting the condition. Many women like to feel a certain sense of romance and I don't think many women want to feel like they are applying for a drivers license when starting a love relationship.
LOL, very true, but again I rather prefer a girl who lives in reality than just in her dreams. There is nothing wrong with my condition and I believe it shows that I am really interested in her. If I would let her still work in a bar she would probably have severe doubts if I am serious about it.
Dear Sir, if you believe that I portrayed you as "stupid" then I suggest you check yourself and try for a little Jai Yen Yen, because something other than my "suggested help" is bothering you.
I am in no way "Tjai ron". I couldn't find a better word because setting the limits too high that she can't reach it would sound very stupid to me. And that's what you indicated or better warned me off. I am quite realistic of what can be achieved by her and what can't.
I recall that you have 20 years experience in Thailand. I also recall that the only place I've ever seen you is in "their tourist/farang bubble". As a matter of fact, the last time we spoke was at the Bier Garden and you where planning to travel to Pattaya the next day. By the way, did you or did you not find your new girl inside the "tourist/farang bubble" that you just referenced?
Correct, I found her and previous GFs in the tourist bubbles, but let's not forget I also found other GFs outside of it, in the real world of Thai society. That only shows that I know how to move in both worlds.
Also do not forget that you suggested the Beer Garden as our meeting point and that you probably haven't agreed to meet me upcountry or at any place outside the bubble you live in. I guess a meeting point should be conviniently located for everybody and should provide some basic entertainment. I have no prob to meet you in any mall, hotel lobby or even on top of the Banyan Tree (very nice drinks and views from and there, especially at night). Have you ever been there ? No ? Why ?
Do you also remember why I went to Pattaya ?
It was to pick up my motorbike, I intended to drive upcountry with my ex-GF, but sadly I had to change plans since it was still raining too often and my ex-GF didn't got time-off as expected.
I look at myself everyday sir, even when driving in a loaded down van with my first girlfriend and thirteen of her family members to some town (don't remember the name and the name is not important) on the coast near Pattaya, but not Pattaya. It was there that I and the other 14 people shopped in the market for snacks. Afterwards I took this stately (middle class) crowd to eat dinner.
When dinner was finished we retired to the beach house the eldest sister rented (I believe she also paid for the van) and it was there that this group of 15 folks (14 of them from Phrae) slept the night away. By the way, there were three others sleeping in the bed I slept in. Although I know this does not equal your 20 years of virtually growing up with the Thais, it does provide a reasonable amount of evidence that I do not reside in the bubble as you suggested.
So you made a weekend trip and shared the bed for one or two nights, but you didn't lived with them, worked with them, didn't share their sorrows, thoughts and dreams.
Poster, be honest, you told me that you only stay in BKK, as far as I remember only once went to Pattaya for a week, plus the weekend trip to a place close to Pattaya you just told us of, which you don't even know the name of.
I guess that proves that you do in fact live in a bubble. You have been to a place and wasn't even interested where exactly it is and what's it's name. I guess it was merely an obligation for you to participate in it and not your will of seeing more of the country you live in.
Now, having been there for so long you haven't made it to the North, South or Issan. You only stay in your room, hang out around Sukhumvit or spend your time with forum members or P4P girls, at least that's what you told us so far. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I know about 20 people that hold regular jobs in Thailand. I know one of the editors of Front Magazine. I know a translator that works for Image magazine. I know a theatre actor that is nothing short of famous within the circle he caters too. I've been to more than one of his shows and at one of said shows he welcomed me to the audience as a gesture of good will. I have been backstage at the Bangkok Theatre Festival with producers, writers, and members of light and sound crew. It is possible that many people don't consider actors and editors and writers as people with regular jobs, but I do.
No need to be sarcastic. You have never told me that or posted about it.
So you know them, but what does that really mean ? Exchanged just a few words or do they really could be called friends who sometimes hang out with you. Do you just met them once, see them on a regular basis or just accidentally run into each other from time to time ?
You are correct that I've never criticized you nor do I desire to begin now, but I will administor you one correction (maybe a correction is a critique after all), I know where my "info" comes from... and that is first hand experience.
I have no prob with being criticized as long as the only intent of that criticism isn't just to criticize. Different people have different opinions, nothing wrong with it and everybody is free to express his opinion. You are entitled to it just as I am.
But I still don't see where your info about the lifes of the Thais in rural areas comes from ? You have never been there so it is only hear-say.
Don't get me wrong, nobody can claim to have final wisdom and to hold the final truth, there are many out there knowing LOS even better than me, but based on my experiences and compared to yours (at least those you told me about) I doubt that your info is reliable as it must be hear-say.
Again, you are correct and it would also be correct to add that I never once make reference to your girl's character, but I did suggest (hypothetically and not factually), that if she were not telling the whole truth it might change the frame of reference you thought she to have and that is why I merely advised you to be careful in the "administration and content" of your test. In essence, everything I said was in consideration of your new girl's feelings.
As soon as you make hypothetical assumptions about her possible feelings, reactions and behaviour you definitely refer to her character. I absolutely got you the right way and I just pointed out that your remarks were merely assumptions and that you would probably would make different assumptions if you would know her.
Now that I've added some paint to my potrait, I'll turn this forum back over to you. Also, I hereby serve notice that any forthcoming apologizies are hereby accepted in advance.
No need to apologize from either side. We are exchanging arguments or better explaining our opinions about certain issues. Again, I have no prob with it (as long as you don't call me "sir", sir :)) We all are entitled to our opinions and as always they are based on our way of thinking, education, experiences and much more that might play a role.
PosterLion
11-27-05, 23:01
Yes you are entitled to your opinion and twenty years is 1000% more than 2 (of which I am still two months shy), but I'd say my two years is the equivalent of five to seven of your first years in the land, albeit my experience is of big city life. You can write this off if you like, it's up to you. This is just my opinion of course. :)
However, your assumptions about my experience are most certainly incorrect. Maybe I have not lived the life of a country bumkin in Thailand, but that does not invalidate what I have experienced, the friends that I have made and have known for over three years (I met many of them as a tourist).
One thing is for certain, your accusations that I live in a bubble are laughable for me to hear. I can assure you that I've seen things you in Thailand you've never seen and probably never knew existed, but whatever and peace be with you.
:)
The Traveler
11-28-05, 00:13
Yes you are entitled to your opinion ...
Poster,
thanks :)
.. and twenty years is 1000% more than 2 (of which I am still two months shy), but I'd say my two years is the equivalent of five to seven of your first years in the land, albeit my experience is of big city life. You can write this off if you like, it's up to you. This is just my opinion of course. :)
How do you know about my first years and why should your (less than) 2yrs equal my first 5-7yrs ?
Please explain it, what was so exciting, abnormal and unusual that you make such a statement ?
Don't forget, I have lived and worked in LOS for over 2 1/2 yrs, have spent up to 6 months per year in LOS for about 18yrs and only had to reduce my travel activities during the last 4yrs.
During that time, especially when I worked there, I had very intense contacts with lawyers, doctors, government and so called middle class. As I have already mentioned some time ago, I was once married to a girl whos brother-in-law comes from a family with a long military history which dates back several generations. In fact, the grandpa of this guy went to school with the reigning king and used to accompany one of the princesses. That's how I was introduced to real Hi-So people and many of my contacts have their origin there and date back to that time. I keep them alive just in case I might need them one day. I also still have close contacts to some upper-class as I still do business with them.
For example, the daughter of one of my best friends studies at Chula and she has a girl-friend at Thammasat who we met when we hung out together (BTW, you can meet very cute and well educated girls this way, but they can get very clingy very fast). She introduced me to her and now she is a close friend of mine. Her father is the commanding general in the Korat area.
I also had the questionable pleasure to know a few low and middle ranking guys of the Pattaya and Rayong mafia because a farang friend of mine shared a business with them and only found out later that they were more than just the average biz guys. But they were fun guys and loved to spend some time at Happy World and Manola with us.
I also used to know some farang mafia in Pattaya, who was quite big in the "entertainment" biz many years ago but later turned on drugs and was boasting about police won't harm him because he bribes them. That broke his neck. Maybe Old Thai Hand is long enough in LOS to tell you about Lothar (he was well know for driving a white Jaguar, as far as I know the only one in LOS at that time).
Another local farang mafia friend of mine - I bought a house from him and he was my neighbour - was in the property business and he loved to drive on racings at Bira Circuit. He imported his racing cars from Singapore twice a year to save import tax. He was shot dead in his house later on. Officially by a burglar but never heard of armed ones back then and nothing was stolen.
So I have severe doubts that your experiences come even close to mine.
Anyway, many of the above I wouldn't call friends as this is reserved for people who would literally jump in front of a running train for me but I know I can rely on them in case I may need some help.
However, your assumptions about my experience are most certainly incorrect. Maybe I have not lived the life of a country bumkin in Thailand, but that does not invalidate what I have experienced, the friends that I have made and have known for over three years (I met many of them as a tourist).
So please explain us how do you know about the lifes of the poor ones in the rural areas (who we are currently talking about) if you have never been there. Because your GF told you something about it ? Sorry, that's not first hand experience, but only hear-say.
I also didn't say your experiences are invalid, but they are quite limited compared to mine and do not cover the life and environment of the person we currently talk about. I also asked specific questions regarding your relationships with the people you have mentioned. I can only guess why you don't give specific answers.
One thing is for certain, your accusations that I live in a bubble are laughable for me to hear. I can assure you that I've seen things you in Thailand you've never seen and probably never knew existed, but whatever and peace be with you.
It's not an accusation, as this would implement that I am looking for trouble.
I only refer to what you have told me in person and what you have posted in the forum.
And how do you know what kind of things I have seen and know about ? Why not give any examples ?
I somehow got the feeling that your abstract answers are a kind of retreat as you can't really tell us were your experiences come from and leave it up to our fanasy to speculate about it.
I am not into competition with you or anybody else about who knows more about LOS. But I must be allowed to question on what basis you make your statements / give advice and where your info comes from.
I go out of town for the weekend and all hell breaks loose. Now having been updated, I have a few question/comments/observations.
First of all, I think the real issue here is a relationship and not that she is a Thai and Traveler is a westerner. So here goes.
A very young, lonely, poor girl travels to the big city in hopes of earning money. Works at the beauty salon and her aunt coaxes her in the prostitution business. It is not to her liking and is very vulnerable.
Along come this handsome guy, who takes her out for a few days. Tells her (or is being convinced of) that this man, twice her age (my assumption, and correct me if I am wrong) would take her out of the hell she is in, if only she would go back to her village and be faithful. The man is a world traveler, has lots of wisdom and is really convincing. Here in front of her is such a tantalizing proposal, should she decline?
She has a tough choice. She has no experience of the real world and what she has experienced so far has been horrible. What would you do my mongering brethens? Hell ya, I would go for it.
That my friend, Traveler is what I see wrong with this situation that you have put her through. It is not about culture but just plain human relationship.
And to make it even more confounding, you would still monger on. Quote"I probably will just hang out with you guys and not take any girls (if no stunner crosses my way of course )" quote.
We are all prostitutes, the only difference is we pay and they get paid. We sleep with hundreds of women and they do hundreds of men. So going back to the test, I am not sure if The Traveler is subjecting himself to the same test, he is making her take.
Now, if the sole purpose is to take her to be a maid in the house, a cook in the kitchen and a ***** in the bedroom, then my entire essay above is a moot point.
As I said, it is just my observation and not an intent to flame anyone, especially you Traveler.
Trav and PL - gad guys ... I perceive that PL is more in tune with the "artist" type group and Trav more in with the "professional" type of group. (Of course, I'm an outsider in the discussion.)
As to the different circles, though, the "hi-so" oriented crowd person and the "ordinary refugee from farangland" person probably DO travel in different circles (not that one is BETTER than the other, just DIFFERENT) Why don't you 2 stop trying "one upsmanship"?
Personally, I am a "professional" where I live, but "eek neung farang" when in muang Thai. Does it matter? Probably not. (when I used to go to Tijuana, I was "just another gringo" - didn't care there either - I went because I LIKED it - not for "image")
I (frankly) wish I had EITHER of your language skills (if I can just get out of the 4 kuab dek mode - it would tee soot)
So just declare a (verbal - or in this case internet) truce, OK???
The Traveler
11-28-05, 21:51
Duni,
your assumptions are absolutely spot on.
But why is it wrong if this situation is about human relationship ?
And to answer your questions :
I wouldn't aim for other girls, but knowing myself I know that I might have a weak day some time. I know it's not fair, but I never said it will.
What about all those guys who have a wife and kids back home but go to LOS for some pussy ? Same story.
If I would be in her situation I would take the chance and stand the test. It's just like the movie "Pretty Woman" and besides the fact that I want to see if she can be trusted and is out of biz, everything is similar to it.
And finally I am not looking for a maid, cook or just a good fuck. I can clean and cook myself and a good fuck is around almost every corner.
It's her attitude that I am attracted to. I just somehow started to like her a lot (not in love so far) the more we talked.
The Traveler
11-28-05, 22:14
Dinghy,
we do not try to "upmanship" each other, at least I don't.
I share your view that either side isn't better or worse, we are just different. But I found Poster's comment that his less than two years are more valid than 5-7 of my years a bit arrogant and misplaced. He doesn't know that much about me to make such a statement.
I solely referred to what he had told me or what he had posted in the forum but he issued statements based on nothing.
That's why I told him a bit about my past, to show him that my social contacts cover a broad spectrum (the Good, the Bad, the Rich and the Poor) and that he should think before he make statements like these. BTW, I never expected something like this from him, seems to be his weak spot.
In my experience there are two ways relationships with bar girls can work.
1. If she has only worked in a bar less than three months, preferably less than one month.
2. If she is past her sell by date.
Most guys are not interested in #2 above unless you are very old and have not much money.
So the best candidates are from item #1. These girls are still not hardened by the business and not past the point of no return.
So Traveler it seems you got your girl from the #1 group. Good Luck. The actions by your acquaintence is really unexcusable and if I were you, I would not want to be with his company anymore.
In regards to PosterLoin's comment:
"For every girl that finds a new boyfriend there also exists an old boyfriend that has grown weary of fucking her. Or to put it another way, For every man that finds a new girlfriend there exists and old girlfriend he no longer wants to fuck."
That is a load of crap, but actually refers to two camps that couples fit into:
Camp #1 Those who do the same sexual acts thus after time no matter if you are fucking a model, it eventually becomes boring.
Camp #2 Couples who have passion and desire and are constantly making sex interesting.
Unforturnately most guys fall into Camp #1. In talks with many Thai Girls both working and non-working, many of them are bored with sex. They are looking for a little excitement. You would be surprised how crazy some Thai Girls could get if given the right instruction.
The other problem with people in Camp #1 they will never understand the mindset of people of Camp #2 so it is a waste of time trying to explain it. I am just happy walking around with a big shit ass grin of satisfaction on my face as is my girlfriend. The people in Camp #1 can only find satisfaction by obtaining new candidates to serve their limited menu of sexual acts.
I see nothing wrong with either camp. but the people in Camp #1 usually are unable to understand the mindet of Camp #2 and try their darnest to purport their way of relationships as the only way.
The attitude of your girl is the most important thing.
PosterLion
11-29-05, 11:20
Look at yourself, you live in a bubble. Your contacts to Thais are limited to people who work in the sex industry. Where have you been ? What do you know about the real life of the people around you or in the rural areas ? Ever went to "Nong Bok Wen" or "Wung Nam Yen" or any similar place ? Or do you only hang out in BKK (Nana, Beergarden etc) and maybe a weekend in Pattaya ? Believe me, you don't know much about Thais and Thai society, you completely depend on what your GF tells you plus these sort of books.
I find traveler's comment that I don't know much about Thais and Thai society a bit arrogant and misplaced. It is also a bit perplexing that he thinks I depend on what my girlfriend tells me.
Please do not see me as an arrogant guy too who believes to know it all. I think about the things you guys say (in case I haven't thought of it before) but you got to ask yourself what do you really know about this situation and where your "info" comes from.
Trav, why is it that you don't want us to see you as an arrogant guy when your posts are in fact quite arrogant. I'd say they are (possibly) the most arrogant posts on this site since Domino's demise. I'm sorry if this hurts but you need to know this about yourself man. :)
I wonder what the other forum members think. Hey all you members of the MOB! Who's posts are the most arrogant? :)
As for one-up-manship, I've no need for such trivial pursuits, :) :)
poster
I only have a few minutes to elaborate on The Travelers reports, but IMHO they are NOT arrogant at all. I find them based solely on his experiences and feelings. If they came across as arrogant to you Poster Lion, it is because he was responding to statements you made pertaining to him and why he feels the way he does. Again no offense to you, but IMHO again you had made statements directed at him and he responded. When he responded he did have you backed in a corner somewhat because of the experience factor, and now because of that, he had to probably express some things that he would not have done otherwise to explain himself, and he himself probably was aware that it might come out in a arrogant manner, but he expressed it anyway to get his point across to you. I do not believe he was trying to show you up. He had to make the statements he made to back up his words and opinions.
One has to be aware of cultural sensitivities.
There are national cultures in which exposing plainly facts about oneself, one's actions and one's success in life is considered most relevant, while the same behaviour in other cultures would come across as arrogant bragging.
In other words, in some cultures humility is a must-have quality, in others if not a weakness at least not something to get overboard with.
In this board, we have people from all over the world. The major culture is Anglo-Amrican, and the language used is English, which opens the way to many cultural misunderstanding. This is fine as long as we all are ready to explain why we wrote the things we wrote if someone does not get the message the way we intended.
When the content of the message is decoded, we can still disagree with each other. There is no need to suspect arrogance or anything bad.
One last comment: it is amazing to see how culturally biased we can be while we are still a very homogenous human group: more or less all of us are single while male mongers.
Poster, did you get my PM?
The Traveler
11-30-05, 01:27
On The Go,
yep, you got it the right way.
The Traveler
11-30-05, 01:51
Seydlitz,
I was in fact thinking if I should post that much about my past or not as I knew that some will call it bragging. But I decided to post it to show Poster that travelling to LOS doesn't only consist of hunting girls and sitting at a bar.
I also intended to show him that my social contacts are indeed broad based. I neither tried to boast about who I do know nor do I feel superior by knowing these people.
In fact I often prefer the poor people of Isaan over the ultra rich Hi-So in BKK. My contacts date back to the time when the military still ruled the country and many of these Hi-So - like a police general I used to know - made a decent salary but additionally got millions of baht in bribes and other illegal activities and I often asked myself who are the bigger criminals, those "decent" people or the "normal" (low ranking) mafia guys who often just try to survive, not able to find a job and make a living with their lack of education . They never do anything as a nice gesture or to help you, they always expect a favour in return.
On the other hand, most of the people I met in Isaan or anywhere else upcountry are genuine friendly or how Cronin would say "the salt of the earth". They are not rich but might offer their help for free, expecting nothing of you in return and I feel much more commitment to people like that.
It might be a cultural thing as you say, but I also believe that it largely depends on the attitude of the reader. Some people don't like if anybody is richer, better looking or just more lucky than they are. They begrudge you for it instead of just accepting it. Remember "Big Slong" and how many people jumped on him because he dared to repeat that he has a big dick. So what, he didn't cut off mine to make it big !
Others don't like if you place a mirror in front of them and confront them with their very own words. But if they don't like it they should be more careful what they say. It's easy to criticize others but harder to accept being criticized. Or in other words : A good winner should be a good loser too.
And finally, I made no judgements, only picked up on what was said and answered py posting a few facts without rating them.
The Traveler
11-30-05, 02:27
I find traveler's comment that I don't know much about Thais and Thai society a bit arrogant and misplaced. It is also a bit perplexing that he thinks I depend on what my girlfriend tells me.
Poster,
I only referred to your posts in the forum and what you have told me in person.
You said, that you only stay in BKK and have been to Pattaya only once. You told me in person that you stay in your room most of the time "working" (searching for investments at the stock market). So far you only posted and spoke to me about places like Nana, Beergarden and the like but never about Thai history, the temples, an evening at a concert or any other places or social events. You also only talked about your GF and other P4P girls but never mentioned what other people you have met outside of the P4P biz, which I find interesting as you have even told us about the ants in your room. You additionally told us about your drinking and Yaba habits.
So what do you expect I might conclude based on the given infos ?
And why do you haven't answered my questions ?
Have you met these people just once or meet them on a regular basis, hang out with them, have dinner, go to the cinema, play bowling or what else ?
Where does your knowledge about upcountry life in LOS comes from ?
And what makes your first less than two years so extraordinary ?
Trav, why is it that you don't want us to see you as an arrogant guy when your posts are in fact quite arrogant. I'd say they are (possibly) the most arrogant posts on this site since Domino's demise. I'm sorry if this hurts but you need to know this about yourself man.
It doesn't hurt, I don't care what you think of me. That's just your opinion and if you have a prob if someone else might have seen and done more than you I can't change it. Don't forget, there is always someone out there who is smarter, richer, better looking, knows and has done more than yourself, Same counts for me.
I already said that I think of myself as being average in all concerns who also keeps low profile as I do not like to stand out. But I say what I know and if you can't live with it, again your prob, not mine.
Let's not forget, you tried to tell me or at least tried to give me some advice, how I should treat / handle that girl. I see nothing wrong with it but I asked you on what basis of info you gave me that advice since you do not know her and don't know anything first hand about the upcountry life as you have never been there.
Furthermore I was wondering how someone who just told us that almost all of his relationships have failed in less than a year, that none lasted longer than one year and who called his current 10month old relationship "long lasting" gives out advice about relationships and how to handle girls. Seems that you haven't been that much successful in the past by treating them your way.
If I would analyze your current relationship as you have done with mine, I would say that your GF still doesn't want to give up her profession because you don't give her any security, or at least she may feel like that. Maybe you think of her as a cheap fuck (no insult intended), just paying for some food, cigarettes and Yaba (your own words) instead of 1000 ST each time that you would have to pay otherwise.
This talking about a girl having a BF but also fucking other guys because she has some grateful feelings for them is complete nonsense to me.
Most - if not all - Thai girls want to marry traditionally (tengaan), not necessarily a legal marriage (djot tabien), but marry the old way. This is very important for them. But you either don't want or aren't able to commit yourself - not necessarily marrying her but giving her the security she needs to leave the sex biz - and to take the limitations and responsibilities that come with it. Why else do you tolerate that she still fucks other guys ? And why she still wants to ?
You say that you have reached step two, but in my terms you haven't even lifted your foot from the floor.
But of course this is just my opinion and none of my business. I do not know your GF and we both don't really know each other, so I avoid to make judgements about the two of you. Maybe you should do the same ?
BTW, I still think of you as a nice guy but maybe you should avoid to make assumptions and comparisons of people you do not know, which are based on nothing and that you like to state as facts. Better stick to what has been said and posted and add your opinions, that will be enough to get your message through.
Even though you have posted a lot about your relationship with this girl I never dared to judge or rate it, or even comment on it. As already said, I don't know the two of you well enough and it's none of my business anyway. But most important, I do never interfere with other peoples relationships because no matter how good your intentions have been, everybody will turn on you in the end.
P.S. Why do you turn the whole thing and try to change it into a personal issue between you and me ?
We don't need that and I think we should be mature enough to stand above such things. It started off as an interesting discussion, so why not let's keep it that way ?
PosterLion
11-30-05, 06:29
Hey Trav,
Let's forget about this debate because it's not proving anything that I can notice.
I got a little irritated when you referred to me as "living in a bubble" and so forth, but my irritation is not a reasonable justification for me to continue this debate. In the beginning I was merely trying to give a little advice and that was all. I was not criticising or judging you in any way. It was only after the "living in a bubble" comments that I got confrontational, but I definitely want to cease and desist from any further confrontation as it is wasting your time and my time and the MOB's time.
My information about women (Thai and/or other) comes from my personal life experiences. That is all I need to say concerning my information. I have no plan to answer your questions, but I will go back and read them when I get the time. I've been a little too busy during the last two days to read your extensive postings, but my eye did focus on the one post where you named me as arrogant and it doesn't hurt me so much because I know I am arrogant. It gives me a laugh now that I look back at what happened. Why did feel like I was "backed into a corner"? I don't really know the answer and that is OK. If I live in a bubble then so be it. lol
I may not be so good at long term relationships, as you pointed out to me. It was good of you to repost the information concerning my deficiencies in case somebody didn't read my original posting concerning the matter. Although, I've not had the best luck in long term relatiopnships, I've had great luck in that many girls have liked me and that is where the advice I tried to give came.
Anyway, can we just forget about all this nonsense as I also would like to keep this from becoming highly personal. After all, there is no need for it and we can still have the occasional beer from time to time and laugh about this later.
poster...
P.S. I did have a chance (after finishing this post) to go back and read your post concerning the rich and the poor. I was having a similar conversation with two friends of mine the other night and we found ourselves drawing the same conclusions. :)
Take care and keep up the good work.
The Traveler
11-30-05, 09:10
Poster,
ok, agreed.
As I said, I still think of you as a nice guy and have no hard feelings for you whatsoever.
Guess I have touched your weak spot, but that's ok, we all have at least one. :)
JuiceSpike
12-18-05, 14:32
you need cash... here is an article i read on the stickman's site reagarding the dowry payment. for all of you love birds take a good read at this article:
a sin sot faq??
what is the sin sot?
sin sot is often translated as dowry. it is money and gold given by the groom to his bride (but usually retained and managed by her parents, at least initially) on the day of their wedding, or sometimes, at the engagement ceremony. i personally believe that "bride price" is a better term than dowry.
what is the reason for the sin sot ?
there are several reasons for the payment of the sin sot. traditionally in thailand the wife would leave the family home upon marriage and move in with her husband’s family. as her family had lost a set of hands, and thus labour, the sin sot was compensation of sorts for this.?? the sin sot is also seen as re-imburisng the family for the cost of raising a child. the sin sot is supposedly seen as a means of showing that the groom is able to take care (financially) of his bride. personally, i think this is absolutely daft and would question how anyone could feel this is a valid reason.
finally, the sin sot is seen as a sort of guarantee money so that if the husband leaves his wife, she is guaranteed to have some money to look after herself. remember, in thailand in the past, and still to some extent today, a woman who has divorced is looked upon as spoiled goods, and is hardly ideal material for a wife. so if she has been divorced, she might struggle to have a good life and the sin sot money could be used to make sure she doesn't go hungry.
so what happens to the sin sot once it is paid at the wedding?
in an ideal world, the cash part of the sin sot would be looked after by the bride’s parents until such a time that it was decided just what would happen to it. it might be returned to the happy couple so as to enable the purchase of marital assets and all of the things a new couple needs. it could be returned to the bride for her to use as she sees fit. it could be returned in part or total to the groom. finally, it could be used by the parents to purchase new assets or in a worst case scenario, squandered on anything from gambling to liquor to paying off debts.
as mentioned earlier, sin sot usually comprises both cash and gold. the gold is usually in the form of jewellery, thai gold that can be cashed in easily at any gold store. this is usually given to the bride immediately and is hers to keep, with no mention of returning it to the groom. in a few cases it may be returned to the groom, but typically, it goes to the bride.
in reality what happens to the cash component of the sin sot?
this is a generalization, but there is a definite correlation between the class and financial situation of the bride's family and what happens to the dowry. in the cases of poorer families, it is often, but certainly not always, kept by the family. in the cases of wealthy families, it is more likely to be returned to the couple.
do all thais practice the giving of sin sot?
most thais do, but certainly not all. there is a relatively small percentage of the population who do not. i have heard that the tradition is not practiced quite as much in the south of thailand as it is elsewhere. still, that would seem to be less relevant to farangs as women from the south are probably the least likely that a farang would marry.
i’m farang, not thai, so does this apply to me?
the average thai will most likely feel that it applies to you just as much as it applies to a thai man and they may even feel that it applies to you “even more”. it is a sad fact that some poorer thai families may see this as an opportunity to ask for a much higher sin sot than they would expect to get if their daughter was marrying a local man.
so i have no choice, i have to pay?
you have a choice and you do not have to pay! there are a good number of farang men who are totally opposed to it and did not pay. a number of farang men have told me that they would rather leave the woman they love than be “forced” to pay such an amount of money. i cannot count how many times i have heard words to the effect that a guy would never buy a wife. it is a personal decision and one that is different for everyone.
the difference between paying and not paying could be the difference between marrying and not marrying. if your wife to be, or a senior member of her family, says that if you do not pay then you cannot marry, you could offer to put some money on the table for display with the explicit understanding that as soon as the ceremony is over, the money goes back to you. this way the family gains face in the community and amongst their friends and peers because their daughter appears to have married a wealthy man who can afford to pay a lot of money. but then you get the money back when everyone has gone home. i believe this to be a win : win situation.
if the family does not agree with this very reasonable counter offer and continues to say that if you don't pay and allow them to keep the money, then you should thank your lucky stars that you have found out what sort of people they are early in the piece. this is not the sort of woman you want to marry, or family you want to marry into. run!
can i pay the sin sot now and then say to the family that that is all they will get from me and in lieu of this one time payment i won't provide any support to them in the future.
this is a very common question from farangs contemplating marrying a thai women. poorer thais may expect that their children will look after them in their old age. i notice more and more middle and upper class thais refuse to become a burden to their children and have made plans so that financially they will be able to look after themselves.
the point here is that the sin sot is in no way related to supporting or assisting her parents. the issues of sin sot and parental support are quite separate, and the issue of supporting her parents or assisting them financially should be talked about openly before marriage. but don't confuse it with sin sot.
what determines the cost of the sin sot?
there are may things that determine how much the sin sot will be and they include, but are not limited to, the age of the woman, whether she has previously been married or not, whether she is pure and innocent (read a virgin), her level of education, her job and job history and perhaps most importantly, the status and standing of her family in the community.
what if she has been married before and / or has had kids. do i still have to pay sin sot.
the jury is out on this one. i have heard older thai people i respect say that in the case of a woman who has been married already or has had kids that sin sot is absolutely not necessary at all. i have also heard exactly the opposite from other thais i respect. my feeling is that if she was previously married or had kids, then sin sot should not be deemed necessary, but that is just my personal opinion.
it is important to understand that different families and different communities have slightly different ideas on the issue of sin sot. there are few absolutes.
how is the actual amount agreed?
there will usually be a meeting between a respected friend or family member of the groom to be, and the parents of the bride to be, at the parents of the bride to be's parents' house. the bride to be's family might even get a senior or well-respected friend of theirs to discuss it on their behalf. as with many things in thailand, it will usually be discussed over food!
truthfully, when farangs enter the fray it can be difficult, as the thai women who farangs marry are not always typical of the your average thai girl. as mentioned earlier, the actual sin sot amount is partly determined by whether the girl has been soiled or not. but this is difficult as you cannot just come out and say, "well this one has had more pricks than a pin cushion so you're going to have knock 75% off the price!" it's a very sensitive process and as such, it is best to get a senior thai, who is in all likelihood much more familiar with the issue, to discuss it and negotiate on your behalf.
i am of the opinion that when a girl is obviously not the sort of woman that thai men would be lining up for and her value is perhaps somewhat limited, then the best thing to do is for the lady in question to negotiate a fair price (read a token amount) with her parents directly. this will eliminate any potentially ugly moments.
i have been asked to pay 1,000,000 baht. is this fair??? it could be a fair price, but in all likelihood, it isn’t.
exactly how much should i pay?
as a very rough guide, and i must stress that, very rough, here are a few examples. the family of an unmarried woman in her mid 20s from a very well-connected, respected, high society family with an overseas education may ask for millions of baht. yes, you read that correctly, millions. a thai man marrying her would be expected to be well educated, from a good family himself and either successful in business already, or someone well on the way to reaching that point. he would either himself have the cash on hand, or access to the amount requested. frankly, farangs seldom marry women like this. it was reported in the press a few years back that the ultra rich american businessman who married bui, thailand's miss world, paid $us 10,000,000 - about 400 million baht! anyway, for a woman of this standing, the expected dowry: millions of baht! an unmarried woman aged late '20s or 30 who grew up in and was educated to bachelor’s degree level in bangkok and hails from a respectable middle-class family. she may have had one or two boyfriends along the way and now has a good job, such as in a bank or in an office. expected dowry: 100,000 – 200,000 baht. a woman from the countryside who completed school to grade 12 level but did not go on to university. she may have a modest job such as working as a waitress or another service oriented job. she is either a virgin or has had few boyfriends. expected dowry: up to 50,000 - 100,000 baht. a woman from the countryside who went to bangkok or pattaya and chose to work in the world’s oldest profession.
frankly, a thai guy would not choose to marry a woman like this unless he was, with all due respect, from the lower echelons of society. expected dowry: very low indeed, most likely well under 50,000 baht. incidentally, the highest dowry i have personally seen with my very own eyes was over 3,000,000 baht (in a thai / thai wedding) and the lowest i have heard of was 7,000 baht.
i'm worried about what happens if i pay a large amount which has been promised back to me but does not come back as had been agreed? very good question! by law, once the sin sot has been paid, the person who paid it has no right to ask for it to be returned. this is written into law. if it is returned to the groom and the bride then decides that she wants it back, she has no right, within the law, to get it back, irrespective of whatever may have happened.
now in the countryside, where the written law is not always applied as it is written, things can be a little different. if a dowry is paid by the groom to be to the bride's family before the marriage and then she goes off and does the dirty before marriage, then the groom to be will ask for the sin sot to be returned times two. so if 50,000 baht was paid, 100,000 baht would need to be returned. this sort of thing is taken very seriously in the provinces and failure to return it could result in extreme measures!
a few years ago i conducted an investigation for a british gentleman who paid a one million baht dowry to a former soi cowboy employee and she ran off with it the night of the wedding! in situations like this, the police should be contacted and it will be treated as theft. whether or not you'll get the money back or not though remains uncertain.
how is payment made? are installments accepted?
there is some flexibility here. generally the sin sot is paid in cash, and the banknotes are fanned out to show clearly how much there is. at some weddings a cheque may be used and at others, i have seen a newly opened bank account shown.
the crowd will often clap, and even cheer, when the amount of the sin sot is announced. often there will be some theatrics. at one wedding i attended, the cash was wrapped up in a cloth and the mother of the bride put it over her shoulder and walked away, making out that it was so heavy (and therefore a large sum) that it was hard to walk properly.
is there anything else i should be aware of?
one thing i often cringe at is when a farang says that the sin sot will be used to cover the cost of the wedding ceremony and party. this is one area where the thais have got it over us westerners, i reckon. at weddings, guests typically give an envelope and all of the money from the envelopes combined invariably covers the cost of the wedding. the wedding party is not a financial nightmare like it can be in the west.
the sin sot is inextricably linked to other aspects of marriage including those of who will make what in terms of financial contributions, pre-nuptial agreements, divorce etc. if she will not budge on the sin sot issue, then you should not budge on the pre-nuptial issue. i find it somewhat disconcerting that a number of thai women try to demand a sin sot, yet refuse to sign a pre-nuptial agreement! quite simply, when put under scrutiny, i do not see any valid reasons why sin sot should be paid by western men, other than to allow the family to gain face - and then have it returned to the groom at the end of the ceremony.
in marriages between western men and thai women, i am of the opinion that the sin sot issue has the potential to be big trouble. i have seen it as the cause of major arguments, angst, stress, and have seen it become the direct cause of some marriages failing. good luck dealing with it.
juice's comments:
make sure you are marrying for something more than just getting laid. :p
juice
Old Thai Hand
12-19-05, 02:26
Juice
This is a well-written and thorough article on this issue. I've written about it briefly here and elsewhere before. I agree with most of what it says. However, the amounts quoted for a middle-class BA-educated girl are rather low. I'd say, at least for a Bangkok girl, expect 500,000 - 1,000,000, especially if she's Thai-Chinese. HiSo girls command well over 1,000,000 as stated.
Although the virgin issue is still a factor up-country, I wouldn't think it is as relevant everywhere as stated, particularly in the cities, and especially BKK. It's a forgone conclusion that even HiSo girls are not "pure as the driven snow" these days.
I also don't agree that Farang can easily get out of this, if they choose too, without it damaging the relationship permanently. It's is ingrained in the culture so deeply that it has to be accepted, or you simply should forget about marrying a Thai woman. In fact, I would be suspicious of the girl's value if you could so easily get out of paying the dowry. It is true that many poor Thais see it as a ticket to easy street when a Farang is involved. That's why, I personally would avoid if possible marrying a poor up-country farm girl unless her family are poor but honorable and respectable, which is highly unlikely.
The compromise of showing the money to save face and then getting it back is a very real and often used alternative. In any event, if you marry a reasonably placed girl of normal status, her family will not keep the money anyway. I have been to several Thai weddings and in only one case did I feel that the Farang "got hosed" a bit because he was a Farang. Generally, the amount agreed to was reasonable for the status of the girl and in all cases the money was returned. Two close friends married middle-class BKK girls. One girl was slightly lower on the scale and was 500,000. While the other came from an old Thai family, but still middle-class (her parents were retired university professors) and was 1,000,000.
In my opinion, no Isaan girl unless she is well-educated and her background is impeccable is worth more than 50,000. The reason for this is simply because the many have spoiled it for the few. With so many working girls coming from Isaan, the area has a bad rep. So, even if the girl is of relatively good stock, he value is lowered.
But, as the last paragraph of the article states, it is a thorny issue that many Farang, thinking from a decidely Western POV get really out-of-sorts about. Yes, it is "buying a wife". It is an old custom. One must remember that Thailand is still an old, tradition-bound country. However, it isn't that long ago that Western cultures were also burdened with a similar dowry system. If one looks at the still pervasive trend in the West of the bride's family paying the exorbitant cost of the wedding, and the groom's family paying for the rehersal party, not to mention all the other costs of getting married, is it really all that different?
OTH
The whole issue of a Thai "bride price" has always seemed to me to be rather overblown, especially when one considers the actual amount of money involved. People in the west certainly managed to put up with the bride's dowry for a long time without any fuss, where the concept was that the woman was thus "bringing something" to the marriage. (Or maybe guys were fine with it because they were on the receiving end.) The Thai perspective of, hey, you're taking my daughter so I'm losing a worker really seems no more disrespectful to the woman than the western one that, well, at least she's bringing a hope chest along now that she's going to be taking up space and eating here.
Many guys wouldn't think twice about paying these amounts for an engagement ring in western society, but go rather nuts about it in LOS, and historically this kind of tradition has served the same general purpose -- a gesture of sincerity and investment on the part of the groom.
And it's not as though Judeo-Christian traditions find this whole idea of a bride price totally alien, either. There are tons of examples in the Bible where bride prices were paid, some of which involved killing off enemies in return for marriage rights. Read Exodus 22:16 or Genesis 29:18, among many others, the latter where Jacob agrees to seven years of servitude for the right to marry Rachel. Echoing the article below's note about sin sot needing to be returned double in places upcountry, a woman who was unfaithful after a bride price was paid was held to be guilty of adultery (Deuteronomy 22:23-27) and, with her lover, would be stoned to death.
I'm curious, OTH -- what would the effect be of a farang knowingly and intentionally paying a higher than needed sin sot? Would the family and bride accrue greater social currency (which would obviously be the intent) or would the groom be seen as a fool for overvaluing his bride? Or perhaps both? I ask because it always seemed to me that it might be a good strategy, if you were going into a Thai marriage, to go through the process of setting the dowry amount, making clear you know the going rate, and then, once negotiations are concluded, announcing that you intended to make the dowry greater.
Old Thai Hand
12-19-05, 09:24
I'm curious, OTH -- what would the effect be of a farang knowingly and intentionally paying a higher than needed sin sot? Would the family and bride accrue greater social currency (which would obviously be the intent) or would the groom be seen as a fool for overvaluing his bride? Or perhaps both? I ask because it always seemed to me that it might be a good strategy, if you were going into a Thai marriage, to go through the process of setting the dowry amount, making clear you know the going rate, and then, once negotiations are concluded, announcing that you intended to make the dowry greater.
In the case of both of my friends who married middle class girls, the amount paid was more than the amount agreed upon. In the case of the 500,000, I believe the agreed amount was 400,000. In the case of the 1,000,000, the agreed to price I think was 900,000. I don't know if it helped with regards to social currency at that level of society. Certainly, I think if the girl was a "good girl" from a good family with traditional Thai values, even if somewhat poor, it would be seen as a gesture of consideration and respect, not foolishness. If the girl is an Isaan bargirl, you're a sucker right off the bat, no matter what you pay.
I certainly would consider paying more than the asking amount if I felt the girl and her family were worth it. You would gain status with her and her family as well as the community. I think about the residual effect. I'm not getting any younger and the traditional Thai concept of the family taking care of each other works both ways. It would be nice to garner respect within a girl's family, knowing that they might take care of you in your old age. I'm not talking about some wretchedly poor Isaan farm family, but a good middle-class Thai family that doesn't expect a continual hand-out 'till the day you die.
The Traveler
12-20-05, 00:14
In my opinion, no Isaan girl unless she is well-educated and her background is impeccable is worth more than 50,000. The reason for this is simply because the many have spoiled it for the few. With so many working girls coming from Isaan, the area has a bad rep. So, even if the girl is of relatively good stock, he value is lowered.
OTH,
I have to object, even Thais pay much more than your mentioned 50.000 for an Isaan girl. True, there are marriages for even less than that amount, but not because the girl isn't worth it but rather because the people are poor. Even though the sin sot has very deep roots in the Thai tradition it isn't as strict as in India for example where people ruin their future and built up great debts just to get married.
Let's take the brother of my current "possible future" GF. Her brother paid 100.000 baht plus four baht of gold plus two buffalos as sin sot. Actually that was the reason why she started to work in the biz because her parents borrowed the money to pay the sin sot. In fact her auntie put a lot of pressure on her as she lend out about half of the money (which she got from her farang husband)
I made her realize that her brother - who didn't give shit about the debt and the family since the marriage - should pay it back instead of her selling her little sexy body. Might be that I will marry her the traditional way just to let her keep face and that her family will use the money to pay the debt. I don't mind 100.000 or 150.000 baht, a marriage party in the West or a bad day at the stock exchange would be much more expensive than that.
I also object that you would be a "sucker" if the girl worked in a bar. Why do you think so ?
My girl worked in a bar for about six weeks during low season (she was a virgin before that and had about ten guys in total) but some HiSo / MidSo girls I know have much more mileage than her but would still get a higher sin sot due to their social status and you wouldn't call their potential husbands being a "sucker". These girls don't work in a bar because they are bad or "worthless" people, but rather because of having obligations and no other way to earn enough money to take care of their families or to pay back some debt.
In my opinion you are a sucker if you pay a high sin sot for a spoiled HiSo chick that turns out as a human nightmare. I rather look at the person, her attitude and her affection than just that outdated "social class thinking". These poor people are often the salt of the earth and more worth than an arrogant HiSo girl that believes to be better than others or being something special just because her dad might be rich or powerful.
Even though the sin sot has very deep roots in the Thai tradition it isn't as strict as in India for example where people ruin their future and built up great debts just to get married.
Actually that was the reason why she started to work in the biz because her parents borrowed the money to pay the sin sot.
Isn't working as prostitute considered ruining your life?
PosterLion
12-20-05, 06:18
Speaking of currency, my favorite to date is the Romanian Lei. Some of the people honored on their banknotes are people of actual substance and value as opposed to the normal self-serving politician.
For instance, the one Lei bank note features Mihail Eminescu (1850-1889), Romania's beloved national poet. Now here's a country with reasonable values. I give them two thumbs up for their choice to honor the Arts over politics.
Here is a small sample of his Genius. If you haven't read Private Dancer you need not bother. That's not to say that Private Dancer is a bad read. It's chock full of highly valuable information, but it takes more than a couple of hours to rescue the information from it’s pages. And as I've said, there's no need in doing so when you can garner the same wisdom in less than five minutes by reading Eminescu.
WHAT IS LOVE
What is love? A lifetime spent
Of days that pain does fill,
That thousand tears can't content,
But asks for tears still.
With but a little glance coquette
Your soul it knows to tie,
That of its spell you can't forget
Until the day you die.
Upon your threshold does it stand,
In every nook conspire,
That you may whisper hand in hand
Your tale of heart's aspire.
Till fades the very earth and sky,
Your heart completely broken,
And all the world hangs on a sigh,
A word but partly spoken.
It follows you for weeks and weeks
And in your soul assembles
The memory of blushing cheeks
And eyelash fair that trembles.
It comes to you a sudden ray
As though of starlight's spending,
How many and many a time each day
And every night unending.
For of your life has fate decreed
That pain shall it enfold,
As does the clinging waterweed
About a swimmer hold.
Now back to the Sin Sot. Well, I didn't really mean to post anything new on that subject as I don't know much of anything about it from actual experience, but I have decided to stir the pot a little with some questions and comments.
I'm under the opinion that Sin Sot is not such a big deal, even if you must shell out 1 Million Baht. Traveler is correct in observing that a bad day in the stock market can be more expensive than paying Sin Sot. I'll confirm this out of personal experience. I could have two or three HiSo wives on some of my "bad days" in the stock market.
On the flip side, I think Traveler may be forcing his Western value-set on his new girl friend by making her realize her brother is no good. I commend him if he marries the girl to absolve her of paying her families debt, but couldn’t that cause the girl more problems down the road if Traveler then decides he likes a different girl. Isn't it true that a Thai lady that marries with a foreigner loses many of her civil liberties in doing so?
I'm quite curious about this loss of civil liberties issue. Anyone know anything?
Now I don't want Traveler to get upset with me for my observation, but I do think it is a valid point. A person may know all there is to know about Thai traditions and culture and still (unknowingly) muck up the works by the operant conditioning that has been instilled in him by his mother-country.
I do believe Traveler's observations on the value of people and I follow that mode of thinking for all my character assessments.
For example, my girlfriend (now ex-girlfriend) is someone I would label as the salt of the earth and not because she likes the taste of semen either.
She has more or less devastated her life under the Thai value system and I seriously doubt anyone would pay more than 5,000 Baht for her hand in marriage. It's probable that no Sin Sot would be required at all because she's had two children (both out of wedlock), she shamed her family by giving these children to her mother (who she hasn't seen or talked with in more than five years), and then there is the issue of her previous career choice (prostitution).
While I realize that she's made many a grievous error, she has a heart of gold. I've never witnesses anyone with such capacity for generosity. She'd give her last forty Baht to someone that needed it and then go sleep with her face down on the café tables on Soi 7 because no money gives one no room. Normally, she does have money and as I've mentioned before, her custom is to live in the small hotels near Soi 4, paying for her existence one day at a time.
She is good luck for anyone that she cares about. She has boarded wayward "poor saps" (farangs with no money), allowing them to live with her, she has fed them and provided them shelter, nightly plying her trade while the "poor sap" rejunvinates at leisure. She allows the "Poor Sap" to stay with her until she has accumulated the necessary funds to send the downtrodden on his way. Maybe she has prevented a few Pattaya hotel skydives from her acts of kindness.
I'm quite certain that her extreme generousity is the result of the guilt she harbors from the wrongs in her past, but that does not change the fact that her heart is golden. She has made some mistakes sure, but we all make mistakes and wisdom is not born out of accident. It is born out of the consequences each mistake provides.
As bad as her mistakes have been I can't hold any sort of judgement over her. I know the full story of her life and she had a horrid childhood. It's a wonder that her golden heart is not that of a lava rock instead.
I don't really have much else to say at the moment. This was a somewhat impulsive post, but then all my post are like that! :)
Oh... A word (most likely not the final one) on my recent break-up. It has been mentioned that my experience may lead to new things and that is most probably the case, but I've no idea what that will be. I shouldn't kid myself. It always turns out to be a new girlfriend. That's the story oh my life.
Now I have a new best-friend instead of a girl-friend and all my ex's don't live in Texas. I gained a lot out of this relationship, far far more than I've paid and I consider myself lucky in the extreme. I'm sure there will be times when I am required to help her with monetary gifts of charity and that's fine by me, she earned it. I will be perfectly happy to allow for her these alimony like endowments. It's probably a lot better than spending money on cigarettes and beer.
Anyway, who can know? It's entirely possible we might get back together some day, but for now...
she's out there trolling and setting her trot lines and I'm in here typing this thing from me to you.
poster.
The Traveler
12-20-05, 21:26
Isn't working as prostitute considered ruining your life?
Duni,
you mix up two diferent things I was talking about.
Anyway, she wasn't neither a part of the couple who got married and therefore not involved in the sin sot agreement nor did her parents force her to work as a prostitute.
She was working in a beauty salon when her aunt discovered her potential and started to put some pressure on her. Nobody except her aunt knows about it and she only did that due to her commitment for her family.
Or in other words, her brother seems to be a selfish asshole as he is responsible for the debt and could/should have paid it back. He has a decent job in BKK and the sin sot wouldn't have ruined him.
The Traveler
12-20-05, 22:52
...I think Traveler may be forcing his Western value-set on his new girl friend by making her realize her brother is no good.
Poster,
this has nothing to do with a Western value-set, it's rather a question of right and wrong which is valid everywhere. Turning the back on the family after his family enabled him to marry the girl of his dreams doesn't display a good character, no matter where you are.
I also never said that I made her realize that her brother is no good, but that it is his responsibliity to pay the debt. Anyway, not much work for me as she seemed to be quite pissed about her brother's behaviour, especially since he seems to have a decent job in BKK.
I commend him if he marries the girl to absolve her of paying her families debt ...
That's the idea plus let her keep face because sooner or later people back home will know that she stays with a farang.
...but couldn’t that cause the girl more problems down the road if Traveler then decides he likes a different girl. Isn't it true that a Thai lady that marries with a foreigner loses many of her civil liberties in doing so?
Nope, not at all.
You have to understand that we are talking about a traditional marriage (tengaan) which does not carry any legal liabilities. Everything connected to it is more of a moral nature and in the past - about two generations ago - most people upcountry just married the traditional way, but not legally (djot tabien). Many Thai men still only marry that way and just leave their "wifes" when they found a new girl.
Only when a Thai is mariied legally to a farang she will loose civil liberties. In fact, they only loose the right to buy land that exceeds one rai. But even this could be avoided if the farang partner officially declares that the money used to buy the land is solely owned by the Thai partner and that he/she will abandon all rights concerning that land. The Thai partner is still able to inherit land of any size or receive it as a gift. Anyway, as soon as a Thai is divorced he/she will regain the right to buy land up to his/her liking.
Now I don't want Traveler to get upset with me for my observation, but I do think it is a valid point. A person may know all there is to know about Thai traditions and culture and still (unknowingly) muck up the works by the operant conditioning that has been instilled in him by his mother-country.
Don't worry, I don't get upset, why should I ?
Furthermore I don't think that I know "all" about Thai traditions and culture.
You only express your concerns, which I appreciate as it could help me to avoid messing things up for her in case I haven't thought about an issue or in case I might have overseen anything. Nice to see that you care for her :)
I am generally quite generous and will financially secure her future if we might get seperated one day (and I am sure that day will come) of course only if she deserves it and doesn't turn out as a human nightmare but that doesn't seem to be very likely as she has been a very nice and unspoiled person so far, much smarter than I expected her to be too. I like smart girls, no way to stay with a stupid one.
I guess we (she and me) got to stay together before we (you and me) can talk about what will happen if we (again she and me) might get seperated. :D
PosterLion
12-21-05, 12:53
Traveler,
I agree. Bad character is indeed valid everywhere. This fact ensures me an infinite supply of Melancholy. It always amazes me that the bad things of this world are easily shared without prejudice, while the good things are restricted by all manner of prejudice. It's a point I've been pondering since the age of 15.
Thanks for the clarifications concerning traditional marriage (tengaan) and legal marriage (djot tabien). I had a vague understanding that there was more than one type of marriage in Thailand but was not aware of the specific differences. It's also good to know that a Thai lady can reclaim civil liberties that were lost due to a mixed marriage.
Next time you are in Thailand I'd like to speak with you on the different methods you employ to secure your ex-girlfriends (wives) future. I have no problem to discuss this matter here in the ISG forum, but I fear this subject might be too burdensome for the 3F crowd bear.
On the other hand, if you don't care about the possible ramifications of such a discourse then I can easily share the same disregard.
I'm a fairly generous fellow myself, although many might not believe me due to the fact that I've never paid a sin sot or an alimony in my life. Most of the girls that I've dated or married (I married once before), were fully capable of securing their own future. However, I do feel an obligation to certain women in my past and think of myself as a sort of God-Father for them. If they have a specific (and verifiable problem), I am almost always willing to provide assistance.
poster
The Traveler
12-23-05, 21:23
Poster,
I think it's better to talk about it via PM or over a nice cold beer (for you) and some water (for me) in Feb. during my next trip.
I will be in BKK for a couple of days to apply for a visa for my new (future) GF.
As you have seen, a few certain guys in here have a prob with talking about money and they would allege that we are bragging. So better let's keep it private.
** Young Traveller Seeking Advice from Old Thai Hands **
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I'm a young, good looking backpacker who came to Thailand to kick off an around the world trip that will last until I can no longer support myself or get just get bored of travelling. But like so many farang who enter the Land of Smiles, I have been mezmerized and sucked into the vortex, overstaying my Visa by two weeks and still not knowing when I'm going to leave Thailand.
I came to Pattaya as a brief daytrip from Bangkok where I had been for a couple of weeks. After a few days in Pattaya I came a cross this girl at about 10 at night on an ordinary street corner with her friend. She greeted me as I passed and when I didn't stop to talk followed me down the block. I invited her up to my hotel room and along she came.
We sat and talked awhile and watched TV before going to sleep and having great sex. She was a little shy/reserved at first, but she loosened up later and had a great personality. She spoke very good English, about the best I've heard in Thailand, was young at 23 and was a stunner. She is intelligent, witty and university educated. She was a little thin for my taste but she has beautiful features, the most beautiful girl I've seen in Thailand.
As we spent the night together there was no discussion of money. This would be the first night of every night that we would spend together over the next month. Although the relationship has been great and a lot of fun, it is also full of complications. When us Farang men meet some Thai girl, it is rarely a case of black and white. I feel good enough about this girl that I would like to prolong my stay in Thailand and keep seeing her as a boyfriend. However there are problems and her *****ish tendencies (I say that in a nice matter, she was a Pattaya prostitue after all) not to mention mine as well (I am in Pattaya after all constantly confronted with beautiful, willing women) that make the whole thing messy.
I'll give a brief list of the good and bad of this situation and see what some of the men older and wiser than I, think of the whole thing as I am completely confused.
THE BAD
(on the side caution I'll start with this, note that most of the bad has a good flip side to it)
- She was a bar girl before meeting me, although she had spent several months at home and was only in Pattaya for two days before meeting me. She said she worked in Pattaya for 4 months and I was the first guy she had meant since coming back.
- She had an expensive cell phone and was talking to some Farang in her excellent English 3-5 times a day when we were together. Every morning some Swedish man called and woke both of us up, and she would go in the bathroom and talk to him for 1-2 hours. Other times she would talk to some other men in what sounded like she was going to hook up with them later, although I never was sure as I just heard bits and pieces. We were together almost all the time so she didnt have many opportunities to hook up with them if she did.
- After we had been together for about two weeks she lost the cellphone when we were hanging out in a walking street disco. She was crying all night in hysteria. Despite being her life, talking on it all the time, she didn't have $300 to buy a new one. I tried to placate her as much as I could but she kept crying. After about two hours of this, at 5 AM, she said she was going to have to leave me and go back to work and that she would have to leave me. I told her don't worry about it and that I would get her a new phone. She insisted on going back to work and she never asked me to help her out. Eventually she feel asleep.
- The next morning we got up and I offered to buy her a 5000 baht phone instead of the pricey 12,000 one she had lost. She declined my offer and said that she wanted the one she had, and that she would go back to work and leave me. I had no end of harsh words after this, telling her to get lost and after her choosing a slightly nicer cell phone over me. Then she started crying that she didnt want to lose me and relented. She stayed with me a couple of days, in a better mood but without a cell phone and things returned back to normal, even though I gave no indication I would ever buy her that phone. I forgave her for how she had treated me and bought her the phone she wanted.
- When she had the phone, all of the old phone calls had stopped, except one. About a week after I had bought her this phone, I noticed someone kept calling about once a night and that she wouldn't answer it. One time I picked up the phone, with a man asking for her on the other hand. She grabbed the phone and hung it up. She then explained to me that he was going to send her 20,000 Baht. Apparently she had three men overseas who sent her 20.000-30,000 baht per month including the Sweden man.
- As for her attitude and character she often joked liked she would leave me and go look for some man tonight. She seemed to make some offhand joke like that every day which I didn't like. Although she is not a cold person, she is a very reserved lover. Her kisses are never really into it except during sex. She is not very intimate, and I am the one that always has to initiate the sex. I've been with many girls and I know when they are really into it or not, and although she is really into the sex, she doesn't seem to be into anything else, i.e. foreplay, oral, kissing, cuddling, etc. The sex however is really hot, sometimes all night start and go sessions.
- I'm not a super possessive man but she is always wearing she slutty shorts up to her ass crack (which men always look at her fine behind) and she always look at good looking men that pass by on the street. That is fine when she is alone but slutty behaviour like that with a boyfriend does not make said boyfriend feel good.
Ok all of that sounds horrible. I should just dump her right away and forget about her right? Well not so fast. Please read the following before jumping to conclusions.
THE GOOD
- We had been together every single night and almost every day since we had met for the last 5 weeks. The only time we were apart is when I went to internet cafes to do some work during the day a about 20 hours a week. Other than that she followed me everywhere or I her and we did everything together and enjoyed it 90% of the time, going to the beach during the day, going swimming, going out to discos and bars every night, or just lounging around watching TV. She has a great personality and speaks very good English and is so much fun to be around.
- Although she had worked in the past, she never once asked me for money nor did I ever give her any. The only time money was discussed was over the about the cell phone, which I had offered to buy, she never asked. I generally paid for most things like drinks and food but she paid for many things herself, she would buy clothes or street food and never ask me for money. She was with me because she geniunly wanted to be, not because I gave her an allowance.
- When she lost her cell phone all the previous men stopped calling even the Sweden man who had called every day. She said she wanted to stop all of that even though she was cutting off her money lines and she was out of money at the time. The one man that was calling was about to give her 20k Baht, which was why he was calling. When I answered the phone she said that he didnt want to send the money now yet she didnt seem upset or mad that I had cost her so much money. She wanted to cut all ties with the past and said she wanted to change everything.
- She was honest about her past. She didnt hide the fact that she was a bar girl before in Pattaya or later that she had men that sent her money when I asked about it. I don't think she was completely honest about everything, but she is not lying and deceitful either.
- Some nights she would go out alone with her friend when I was too tired to go out. She always came back to me at night and she never tried to cut me loose.
- When I asked her about just being good friends she adamantly refuses and wants to be my boyfriend. She doesnt want me seeing any other women and expresses worries about it from time to time.
- I offered her to come to Chiang Mai with me and we can go to school and work together and we would live together there. She is all up for it and agrees that Pattaya is no place for a couple.
She is clearly interested in me and wants to be with me and I want to be with her. She is not working any angle and she even abandoned the angles that she was working before. She had some men sending her money because she is so beautiful with such a great personality. For her it was like taking candy from a baby I'm sure, yet she dropped all of that without hesitation for my sake. Whenever I expressed disinterest in the relationship, a couple of times on the verge of leaving her, she fought for me.
My inclination is to get over the past and little problems, and take her with me to Chiang Mai. Before I felt like I was walking into a trap but now I know better. What are others thoughts?
Havrum,
You are a living example of what 'round the world travelers' are all about - that's all from me on that.
Your FIRST, if not your ONLY, priority is to sort your VISA out.
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