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The Traveler
06-24-06, 13:00
The Traveler,

I am really not interested in what you tell me here. I find the word "dick" much too friendly, if I see what has happened in this thread.

People, who get so easily out of control like you, and start the threaten others, should not post here, and they should be very careful to generally use a internet forum.

As you know - it is really not the first time that discussions with you create a complete mess in a thread.


Giotto
Giotto,

you seem to be the only one in here who seems to move it on a personal basis. You obviously have some problems to keep your self-control. This isn't the first time that your emotions took over control. Stay calm just like the rest of us.

I stand by what I have said, if he will expose her he will have to face consequences. If he has no intentions to do so - and I assume he wouldn't anyway - everything is fine.

Tiger 888
06-24-06, 13:05
There is a point now where I would kindly ask everyone to step a step back. Neither personal flames nor threats of any kind serve the purpose of this forum. The whole story was so entertaining and informative until it got personal.
If this goes on, Jackson surely will have to move in. Let's not bother him.
Protecting our and involved friends' privacy is a must be proirity. If you violate that you go on one level with the terrorists, just not firing the final shots yourselves.

Freeler
06-24-06, 13:11
"you seem to be the only one in here who seems to move it on a personal basis. You obviously have some problems to keep your self-control. This isn't the first time that your emotions took over control. Stay calm just like the rest of us."

Says who...

"If he has no intentions to do so - and I assume he wouldn't anyway - everything is fine."

Bla bla about fukken nothing.

Old Thai Hand
06-24-06, 13:28
In the spirit of the way things should be on this board, I've decided to ask Jackson for a new thread featuring Traveler and me.

I am going to change my handle to Old Skinless Hand, to protect my now precarious identity.

Coming soon....The Traveler and Old Skinless Hand Discussions!...not to be confused with.................................................................................

The Traveler
06-24-06, 13:39
There is a point now where I would kindly ask everyone to step a step back. Neither personal flames nor threats of any kind serve the purpose of this forum. The whole story was so entertaining and informative until it got personal.
If this goes on, Jackson surely will have to move in. Let's not bother him.
Protecting our and involved friends' privacy is a must be proirity. If you violate that you go on one level with the terrorists, just not firing the final shots yourselves.
Tiger,

absolutely correct, agreed.

BTW, the US government is quite good at violating peoples privacy.
Are they also on one level with the terrorists ? Just curios.

The Traveler
06-24-06, 13:55
No comment on that.

Just a story: a German news speaker once got into trouble because he attested George Bush thinking structures as Bin Laden's. When my Chinese Wife heard that she sait, well of course he should get trouble for attesting Bush thinking structures. This message will as well self destruct in a few hours. So take your copies quickly!
Tiger,

I doubt that Mr. Bush does think much. :)
I have my very own opinion about him. :(


Nevertheless, OTH and I have already made peace via PM.
It's much easier to have a reasonable and mature discussion without the interference of all those self-important wankers who only put oil in the fire and have nothing of substance to say,

Terry Terrier
06-24-06, 15:15
oth, traveler,

get up to speed willya, guys. you were keeping giotto's thread off the top of the non-stickys :d. still, the 'reports of distinction' thread is a sticky, right, g?

Duniawala
06-24-06, 15:51
In the spirit of the way things should be on this board, I've decided to ask Jackson for a new thread featuring Traveler and I.

I am going to change my handle to Old Skinless Hand, to protect my now precarious identity.

Coming soon....The Traveler and Old Skinless Hand Discussions!...not to be confused with.................................................................................
What a wonderful idea. Hopefully you only you two will be allowed on that thread and see it end in a few days. Just like the rest of the special threads. OTH, you can keep your present handle. We don't mind, really.

Tum te da da… tum te da……:D

HarlequinShrimp
06-24-06, 19:08
In the spirit of the way things should be on this board, I've decided to ask Jackson for a new thread featuring Traveler and I.Old Thai Hand,

Good thing you don't teach english grammar, at this Uni. ;)

Traveler1234
06-24-06, 20:04
Traveler, OTH, G, Duni and everyone else: this is the funniest bit of exchange I've ever read on ISG. Keep it coming....:)

LOL

Old Thai Hand
06-25-06, 06:21
Old Thai Hand,

Good thing you don't teach english grammar, at this Uni. ;)

Good thing your 9 posts have 'contributed' oh-so-very much to the board already, or I might say something grammatically incorrect to you. ;o)

Traveler1234

yes. It got stupid. I'm going to do my best to avoid being a part of this kind of thing ever again. It's a waste of everyone's time.

Retired Army
06-25-06, 08:10
Tiger,

I doubt that Mr. Bush does think much. :)
I have my very own opinion about him. :(




Thank you for keeping your opinins to yourself. I lived in your country for many years and I doubt you would like what I have to say about your politicians.

Retired Army
06-25-06, 08:31
Why is there this diatribe towards OTH? His insight and observations are, for the most part, very accurate. He has a unique perspective and presents it eloquently. While he and I may not always agree about Thai women and society, as on old Thai hand myself (more than 30 years), his postings help me understand this strange and elusive Thai culture. Just when I think I have it figured out, he presents another view. Why not just take his information and apply it to your individual situation without criticism. No one in our situation, who is not a native born and speaks fluent Thai, is ever going to completely understand Thai's, Thai society or Thai culture.

Duniawala
06-25-06, 09:09
Why is there this diatribe towards OTH? His insight and observations are, for the most part, very accurate. He has a unique perspective and presents it eloquently. While he and I may not always agree about Thai women and society, as on old Thai hand myself (more than 30 years), his postings help me understand this strange and elusive Thai culture. Just when I think I have it figured out, he presents another view. Why not just take his information and apply it to your individual situation without criticism. No one in our situation, who is not a native born and speaks fluent Thai, is ever going to completely understand Thai's, Thai society or Thai culture.
Not to start a long discussion, RA but please read your post agan. Either OTH has the perspective or not is made moot by your statement "No one in our situation, who is not a native born and speaks fluent Thai, is ever going to completely understand Thai's, Thai society or Thai culture.". OTH is a farang of Canadian descent.

"his postings help me understand this strange and elusive Thai culture" followed by "Just when I think I have it figured out, he presents another view." Yeah it is elusive. I don't think OTH has grabbed it yet, but I do give him credit for trying his best to do so.

You are right about understanding the culture. Only those who have a similar culture can understand it. It comes from living in it your formative years.

Retired Army
06-25-06, 09:53
please read your post agan. Either OTH has the perspective or not is made moot by your statement "No one in our situation, who is not a native born and speaks fluent Thai, is ever going to completely understand Thai's, Thai society or Thai culture.". OTH is a farang of Canadian descent.



I stand by my statement and I believe it to be factually correct. I never said OTH has all the answers, just a very good and sometimes different prespective from my own. His postings don't always explain why Thai's do as they do. I don't think he has any more of an idea than I. I ask my Thai GF and even she has trouble understanding Thais sometimes. I suspect that is one of the reasons she is trying so hard to adapt to and identify with Western culture. Hopefully she will keep the good parts of the Thai culture and not adopt the bad habits of Western women.

I think the bottom line is to not necessarly understand the Thai culture, but to respect, enjoy and appreciate it for what it is: different from our own. But one should not make it something that it is not or something we want it to be.
I see Farangs doing that every day along Sukhumvit.

Pool Guy
06-25-06, 10:13
I stand by my statement and I believe it to be factually correct. I never said OTH has all the answers, just a very good and sometimes different prespective from my own. His postings don't always explain why Thai's do as they do. I don't think he has any more of an idea than I. I ask my Thai GF and even she has trouble understanding Thais sometimes. I suspect that is one of the reasons she is trying so hard to adapt to and identify with Western culture. Hopefully she will keep the good parts of the Thai culture and not adopt the bad habits of Western women.

I think the bottom line is to not necessarly understand the Thai culture, but to respect, enjoy and appreciate it for what it is: different from our own. But one should not make it something that it is not or something we want it to be.
I see Farangs doing that every day along Sukhumvit.

Retired Army, OTH,
Off topic again, but have to ask.

I thought public displays of affection were a cultural taboo? However, my Tg from Giotto's Lodge would hold my hand, lock arms, or place my arm around her hips in public. I have to admit getting some looks from other Thais; however, as an American, figured if someone was staring at me, I'd return the stare with a glare.

I liked the GF experiance (sort of reminded me of being with Geisha, I am the total focus of her attention).

I would appreciate your thoughts,
PG

Old Thai Hand
06-25-06, 11:10
Retired Army, OTH,
Off topic again, but have to ask.

I thought public displays of affection were a cultural taboo? However, my Tg from Giotto's Lodge would hold my hand, lock arms, or place my arm around her hips in public. I have to admit getting some looks from other Thais; however, as an American, figured if someone was staring at me, I'd return the stare with a glare.

I liked the GF experiance (sort of reminded me of being with Geisha, I am the total focus of her attention).

I would appreciate your thoughts,
PG

More on topic than a lot of the crap that has transpired, lately.

It used to be VERY taboo to show any affection in public. But, not any more. I would think the only Thais who stare are of the older generation and they will also probably stare simply because you're a Farang with a TG and they just do that, anyway. Public affection is still not as open as the West. But, holding hands is very normal now. Thais do it all the time. Even walking with arms around each other is becoming normal. My GF actually asked me to kiss her on the cheek the other day and she's always kissing me and doing the Thai "sniff" which is actually much more significant (and sexy, in my opinion) than a kiss. My GF is 21. So, she's barely past being a teenager. Thai teenagers are the ones setting the trend for public affection, because they've seen it in Hollywood movies and are copying it. Now, other Thais are following suit.

Don't go nuts and still be somewhat reserved and subtle about this. Don't hang off a girl like a limp rag as I've seen some Farang do. THAT will upset Thais. You can still show affection and be polite about it.

HarlequinShrimp
06-25-06, 11:29
Good thing your 9 posts have 'contributed' oh-so-very much to the board already, or I might say something grammatically incorrect to you. ;o)
It's OK, Old thai Hand, you can't be an expert at EVERYTHING. No need to get hot under the collar about your lack of grammar.

Pool Guy
06-25-06, 11:53
More on topic than a lot of the crap that has transpired, lately.

It used to be VERY taboo to show any affection in public. But, not any more. I would think the only Thais who stare are of the older generation and they will also probably stare simply because you're a Farang with a TG and they just do that, anyway. Public affection is still not as open as the West. But, holding hands is very normal now. Thais do it all the time. Even walking with arms around each other is becoming normal. My GF actually asked me to kiss her on the cheek the other day and she's always kissing me and doing the Thai "sniff" which is actually much more significant (and sexy, in my opinion) than a kiss. My GF is 21. So, she's barely past being a teenager. Thai teenagers are the ones setting the trend for public affection, as they've seen it in Hollywood movies and are copying it. Now, other Thais are following suit.

Don't go nuts and still be somewhat reserved and subtle about this. Don't hang off a girl like a limp rag as I've seen some Farang do. THAT will upset Thais. You can still show affection and be polite about it.

OTH,
Damn, a 21 y/o, hats off to you broh.

What is the Thai sniff; sounds like I missed out on something again, oh well…

FYI, technically, I am not Farang (I'm Asian American). I have to admit being surprised that I am not recognized as American (when in Japan, I am always immediately recognized as American). Sitting pool side by the lodge working on my pc, I’ve had other Asians come into the Lodge and give me a “Sawatee Krop”.

You are correct; most stares were from older Thais. Guess I'll just have to shrug it off.

Thanks for the clarification, and knowing that I can return the affection in moderation.

Wish I could live/teach/retire in Thailand.
PG

Old Thai Hand
06-25-06, 12:28
OTH,
Damn, a 21 y/o, hats off to you broh.

What is the Thai sniff; sounds like I missed out on something again, oh well…

FYI, technically, I am not Farang (I'm Asian American). I have to admit being surprised that I am not recognized as American (when in Japan, I am always immediately recognized as American). Sitting pool side by the lodge working on my pc, I’ve had other Asians come into the Lodge and give me a “Sawatee Krop”.

You are correct; most stares were from older Thais. Guess I'll just have to shrug it off.

Thanks for the clarification, and knowing that I can return the affection in moderation.

Wish I could live/teach/retire in Thailand.
PG


Yes. I'm very lucky to have the 21 yo. I met her online and she's been living with me since the 2nd day I knew her. She has never asked me for a single baht, which is a nice change. She comes from a good family and because she's the baby, they all seem to take care of her financially, which is very much the norm in good Thai families. And, BTW, she comes from Isaan. But, she's one of those rarities; a middle-class urbanite from Isaan.


The Thai sniff is actually their version of the kiss going back centuries (I've never researched it, but maybe I will, now). It involves the girl sticking her nose into the nape of your neck and taking in a short, loud sniff. It stems from the Thais' pre-occupation with smell, linked also as it is to Buddhism...(incence, flowers, fruit, food etc. put at shrines all connect to taste and smell.) It is the height of personal affection from a Thai woman. Personally, I think it's a real turn-on.

The Asian American thing might confuse Thais and cause them to stare. I'm not sure.

Teaching in Thailand is not always that great, especially in terms of job security. I was going to answer you post from yesterday at length. But, I decided against it. In short, there is no tenure system here for Thais and certainly not for Farang. But, Thai professors seldom if ever get fired, especially at government universities, even if they are crap at their jobs, fuck their students (relevant to yesterday's discussion) or are guilty of any other transgressions, short of a major crime. In contrast, Farang are at the mercy of contracts which don't mean much here and those contracts are usually for 1-2 years only. Thai academic institutions are notorious for reneging on even legal commitments or for simply not keeping promises and outright lying. It's a bit of a minefield. I've had my fair share of crap from schools here. But, I've always landed on my feet, and luckily I'm now in a pretty secure position. But, it's not that way for many Farang teachers here. It really depends on how badly they need you and how indispensable you are. At least for the moment, I'm indispensable. But, I'm not sure how long that will last: hopefully long enough for me to retire.

Retired Army
06-25-06, 12:39
Retired Army, OTH,
Off topic again, but have to ask.

I thought public displays of affection were a cultural taboo? However, my Tg from Giotto's Lodge would hold my hand, lock arms, or place my arm around her hips in public. I have to admit getting some looks from other Thais; however, as an American, figured if someone was staring at me, I'd return the stare with a glare.

I liked the GF experiance (sort of reminded me of being with Geisha, I am the total focus of her attention).

I would appreciate your thoughts,
PG

OTH handled this one very well. Thirty years ago when I was first in Thailand it was taboo to even hold hands in public much less kiss. Then the Americans arrived and around the military bases you saw just about anything from holding hands to kissing and out right groping. The more formal Thais really looked down on this sort of behaivor and many still do. However, I have noticed over the years that with more exposure to Western media this trend is changing. Holding hands is common now, not only in Bangkok but in other places as well. Younger, more progressive, Thais can be seen with their arms around each other and in some cases kissing. Siam Square is a perfect place to witness such activity between Thais. Same with the provocative dress and extreme hair and make-up styles. Not something normally accepted in Thai society.

I think a lot of farangs mistake the "mai pen rai" attitude of most Thais and misintreperet it to mean "anything goes." This is definitely not the case! Just because the Thais don't make a big deal about something doesn't mean they approve.

The Traveler
06-25-06, 15:27
Thank you for keeping your opinins to yourself. I lived in your country for many years and I doubt you would like what I have to say about your politicians.
Retired Army,

give it a try. You would wonder what I do think about them.
I don't think of them as being very competent and capable in what they do, and that's still a very polite description.

Traveler1234
06-25-06, 15:33
Traveler1234

yes. It got stupid. I'm going to do my best to avoid being a part of this kind of thing ever again. It's a waste of everyone's time.

OTH
Next visit to LOS, let's hook up for a drink at Mr. G's. You didn't come by the week I was in town in late May.

The Traveler
06-25-06, 15:41
Why is there this diatribe towards OTH? His insight and observations are, for the most part, very accurate. He has a unique perspective and presents it eloquently. While he and I may not always agree about Thai women and society, as on old Thai hand myself (more than 30 years), his postings help me understand this strange and elusive Thai culture. Just when I think I have it figured out, he presents another view. Why not just take his information and apply it to your individual situation without criticism. No one in our situation, who is not a native born and speaks fluent Thai, is ever going to completely understand Thai's, Thai society or Thai culture.
Retired Army,

there wasn't a diatribe towards OTH !
The person OTH and his character were never in question or part of a discussion.

We only had a discussion about a character attribute of Thai-Isaan people. The discussion was reasonable until a fewn guys moved it to a personal basis by adding stupid comments which didn't contain any information. OTH also got a bit frustrated as he couldn't convince me that his opinion was spot on and I was wrong.

When he asked for proof for a certain statement I made, I provided that proof via PM. As I deeply believe that OTH is really who he pretends to be - others have doubted that and I have defended OTH against those people - he could use the provided info in combination with other infos given, to identify my ex Thai-GF. I just told him that it would have consequences in case he would expose her. I didn't really expect it from him, but people sometimes do things which they regret later on. He was frustrated and already called me names at that time so I didn't knew what to expect.

Nevertheless, another member used that warning to escalate the whole thing.

OTH and me decided to move to PM and settled all issues within minutes. There is respect and no bad feelings for each other.

The Traveler
06-25-06, 15:53
Retired Army, OTH,
Off topic again, but have to ask.

I thought public displays of affection were a cultural taboo? However, my Tg from Giotto's Lodge would hold my hand, lock arms, or place my arm around her hips in public. I have to admit getting some looks from other Thais; however, as an American, figured if someone was staring at me, I'd return the stare with a glare.

I liked the GF experiance (sort of reminded me of being with Geisha, I am the total focus of her attention).

I would appreciate your thoughts,
PG
Pool Guy,

as OTH already said, times have change and it's slowly becoming "normal".
On my last trip I saw a young Thai couple (guess both models as she was simply stunning with a photo portfolio in her hand and he was a handsome young guy) in the skytrain, both hugging each other and kissing from time to time.

Nevertheless, don't forget that your TG is a prostitute who often do things which regular girls wouldn't do. Also do not forget that you are in BKK. Upcountry it would be close to impossible to kiss each other in public.

Retired Army
06-25-06, 16:40
Retired Army,

give it a try. You would wonder what I do think about them.
I don't think of them as being very competent and capable in what they do, and that's still a very polite description.


As a visitor to any country other than my own I don't feel it appropriate to comment negatively on their leaders. I don't have the appropriate frame of reference to make a knowledgable assessment and anything I would say would be out of emotion and not facts. That is the reason I don't get involved in Thai politics. However, from what I have seen, Angela Merkel seems to be a "cut above" most other politicians.

Retired Army
06-25-06, 16:47
OTH also got a bit frustrated as he couldn't convince me that his opinion was spot on and I was wrong.

He was frustrated and already called me names at that time so I didn't knew what to expect.

Nevertheless, another member used that warning to escalate the whole thing.



I don't believe in this right or wrong bullshit. One man's opinion is another man's fart. It's just an opinion; not necessairly right or wrong.

Children call names on the playground. We are adults and can agree to disagree. No one has to agree with everything another person says.

As far as other members gettijng involved where they shouldn't; just remember, the world is full of assholes and this person may just be one.

Admin
06-25-06, 18:42
Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to provide for the exchange of information between Men on the subject of finding Women for Sex.

Let's get back to the subject.

Thank You,

Jackson

The Traveler
06-25-06, 18:50
I don't believe in this right or wrong bullshit. One man's opinion is another man's fart. It's just an opinion; not necessairly right or wrong.

Children call names on the playground. We are adults and can agree to disagree. No one has to agree with everything another person says.

As far as other members gettijng involved where they shouldn't; just remember, the world is full of assholes and this person may just be one.
Retired Army,

so true.
I finally met a wise man in this forum :)

SidTheSexist
06-26-06, 03:52
Sid,
I wonder why people - in this case you - tend to believe that a reasonable discussion and exchange of different points of view must be a personal thing and must be motivated by a dislike in the other poster.
Sigh! I wonder why people - in this case you - take everything on this board, so serious and fail to notice any attempt at humour (good or bad) to keep the discussion interesting for all parties. I also wonder why or should i say if, some people - in this case you - ever do any work all day, or if in fact this site is one of the most important things in your life.
Sid :D

Meaty
06-26-06, 10:34
Meaty,
Life up there is much more complex, ask your wife if you don't believe me.
I did, initially she went down your line of thinking, theres no choice, its a last resort, nobody wants to be a WG, after around 30 minutes of discussing that further, the subject went on to the fact that the alternatives were non existent, we then discussed the alternatives, and to keep it real simple we stuck to factory work, the defense mechanisms kicked in and the real feelings came out, factory work is horrible, very long hours, bad working conditions, work all the time, little money, WG can have lots of money. Oh but the working conditions of a WG i say, the very long hours, the bad working conditions, work all the time, and the reply i got, but its easier and you get more money. Ah, so WG was chosen because of more money and it was deemed easier.

30 baht medical scheme can be taken advantage of at any government hospital in Thailand, its not directly linked to where you are resgistered (but that is fairly recent (6-12mths))

Anyway, bored, i don't have the time you have to devote to these subjects, i admire your ability to stand by your opinions, nothing wrong with that, but you do appear to get caught up in more than your fair share of these types of discussion, one wonders if Posterloins conspiracy theory could be extended to Jackson asking certain individuals to fan the flames whereever possible to encourage post, hits and new members, helping to increase the overall net worth of the site ?

Seydlitz
06-26-06, 10:52
Anyway, bored, i don't have the time you have to devote to these subjects, i admire your ability to stand by your opinions, nothing wrong with that, but you do appear to get caught up in more than your fair share of these types of discussion, one wonders if Posterlion's conspiracy theory could be extended to Jackson asking certain individuals to fan the flames wherever possible to encourage post, hits and new members, helping to increase the overall net worth of the site ?I think that Jackson is an amazingly tolerant person. I have been around for years now, and I have seen him put up for extended periods with the kind of behavior that would deserve a very harsh treatment. In the most severe cases, he had to resort to extreme solutions like confinement or even banning in the end.

Personally, I find regrettable that people cannot control their own emotions and behave in such an appalling way, forcing Jackson to police the forum, something I would imagine he does not like to do, if only because it must take quite a bit of his time. We should keep in mind that this is a non-profit venture that is kindly brought to us by Jackson himself and nobody else.

I do not detect any hidden agenda in all that.

Rebad
06-26-06, 20:22
Whats the easiest way to bring a TG to the states.

Fiancee Visa?
Tourist Visa?
Student Visa?

Get married in Thailand?

Stuff her in a box with food and ship it?

The Traveler
06-26-06, 23:48
I also wonder why or should i say if, some people - in this case you - ever do any work all day, or if in fact this site is one of the most important things in your life.
Sid :D
Sid,

since we also had other participants in that discussion - like OTH and Giotto e.g. - that should be valid for them too, right ?

If you believe it or not, some people use computers for work and you can also use it to do some research. Switching into the forum from time to time during these activities doesn't make it one of the most important things in life.

Traveler1234
06-26-06, 23:50
Sid,

since we also had other participants in that discussion - like OTH and Giotto e.g. - that should be valid for them too, right ?

If you believe it or not, some people use computers for work and you can also use it to do some research. Switching into the forum from time to time during these activities doesn't make it one of the most important things in life.

Fellow mongers and friends: settle down. Jackson already posted a message. If we can't respect each other's, at the very least, let's respect 'his wish'.

IMHO

The Traveler
06-26-06, 23:57
...so WG was chosen because of more money and it was deemed easier.

Meaty,

you missed a very important point !
Will working in a factory offer enough income to support family back home and/or pay back debt (at 3-5% interest per month !!!) ?
How much can you save from a 4.000 income per month ?

Of course, it's the money that attracts the girls. If it wouldn't be the money nobody would do it, neither in LOS nor somewhere else in the world. But what other options do you have to generate such an income with just 6-9yrs in school ?

I won't comment on the rest of your post, that was below your level.

SidTheSexist
06-27-06, 03:35
Sid,
since we also had other participants in that discussion - like OTH and Giotto e.g. - that should be valid for them too, right ?
Switching into the forum from time to time during these activities doesn't make it one of the most important things in life.
But you still failed to pick up on the original point I made. Chill out man, and accept a joke. Im not waging a war against you, nor is anyone else; but we are allowed to include some humour in our lives.
I also use my PC for work, which is why I dont post on weekends, as I like to relax and enjoy mongering. And Im sure glad that flicking from work into the forum doesnt require me to be online at 6.30 in the morning :D:D:D
Chill

As an attempt to not go off the topic too much; I was chatting on MSN to a girl I met in Angelwitch Pattaya, last night for some time. She is very open with me, as I was clear from the start I wouldnt be getting sucked in to the sponsorship palava. She claims to have a western guy in another asian city sending her 70,000bht a month. With this she is funding the obvious land back home and the mothers motobike etc, and she no longer works in the bars (possibly FL???). With this amount of money Im sure there are other options available to her as far as catching up on her education or learning some sort of legitimate skill. IMO, it is the general thai attitude of only thinking about today which keeps her from realising that one day, the farang is probably going to dissapear leaving her in that miserable situation of being too old for gogos and unemployable in an office. Its a shame, as I found her to have a lot more sense than most WG's who Ive met.
Sid

Retired Army
06-27-06, 06:24
Whats the easiest way to bring a TG to the states.

Fiancee Visa?
Tourist Visa?
Student Visa?

Get married in Thailand?

Stuff her in a box with food and ship it?

Absolutely do not get married in Thailand, that will only complicate the process. The best way is a Fiancee Visa if, in fact, you plan on marrying her.

Tourist visa is almost impossible unless she has a good job and plans on returning to Thailand after her visit. Student visa requires she be accepted and sponsored by a school.

Travel Dog
06-27-06, 10:45
Rebad

"Plan to marry" is the key word here. With a K-1 Fiancee visa You have 90days once she gets into the USA to marry her or change your mind.

TD

The Traveler
06-27-06, 19:48
But you still failed to pick up on the original point I made. Chill out man, and accept a joke. Im not waging a war against you, nor is anyone else; but we are allowed to include some humour in our lives.
Sid,

I simply did not get it. :(
You rather sounded ironic and sarcastic to me, therefore I assumed you were serious about what you said.

Got to read it again, sometimes I seem to be slow. :)

Meaty
06-28-06, 06:06
Meaty,
you missed a very important point !
Will working in a factory offer enough income to support family back home and/or pay back debt (at 3-5% interest per month !!!) ?
How much can you save from a 4.000 income per month ?

Seeing as you asked....
Rent for Thai style place = 1,500 per month
Water = 100 per month
Electric = 300 per month
All shared between this lady and her 3 girlfriends who sleep together so;
475 per month
travel to work, by non aircon bus, 8 baht round trip, times 24 working days per month = 192 baht
Thai food = 3 times a day, 15 baht a meal, 31 days =1,395 (this would be less because they would not buy every meal, cooking for 4 is cheaper)
Clothes = 200 - (4 t-shirts or 10 pairs of underware or 1 pair of jeans)
toiletries = 200
Anything else that springs to mind = 500 (this is not required, but lets add it for sake of caluclations)
TOTAL = 2,962
So if i were very poor, worked in a factory, and lived exactly as that demagraphic does, i could save around 1,000 baht per month
Total = Loan, 100,000
Yr 1, 100,000 x 5% = 105,000 - 12,000 = 93,000
Yr 2, 93,000 x 5% = 97,650 - 12,000 = 85,650
Yr 3, 85,650 x 5% = 89,932 - 12,000 = 77,932
Yr 4, 77,932 x 5% = 81,829 - 12,000 = 69,829
Would it be fair to say after these 4yrs, the salary may increase by 1,000 baht per month ? Lets say she pays half of that into her loan
Yr 5, 69,829 x 5% = 73,320 - 18,000 = 55,320
Yr 6, 55,320 x 5% = 58,086 - 18,000 = 40,086
Yr 7, 40,086 x 5% = 42,090 - 18,000 = 24,090
Yr 8, 24,090 x 5% = 25,294 - 18,000 = 7,294
Yr 9, 7,294 x 5% = 7,658 DEBT PAID

Okay so the interest isn't totally accurate, but i did take your higher rate of 5%, we also neglected to think of any other money whatsoever that the family will have from there crop/farm/shop that just doesn't get flooded every year.

Perhaps OTH and I were wrong to say 'lazy', i think perhaps easy / easy route would be more appropriate.

But the moral remains, don't borrow 100,000 in the first place. but if you have to, make sure you have more daughters :D

Meaty
06-28-06, 07:03
The full story is here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/06/28/national/national_30007476.php

But the sickening parts i have pasted below, Bualoy is the father of Lee. One might ask where this girl would have ended up had she reached 12yrs old. SICK.

"Witnesses from the neighbourhood said Lee was forced to sell flowers to pay for her schooling and get money for her parents who did not want to work.

Relatives said Bualoy had forced Lee to sell flowers every evening until 8pm and on weekends since she was seven. She was supposed to meet a sales target or she would face a beating. Bualoy was often seen assaulting Lee at the intersection in front of others because she had asked for a break to play with other children or do homework, they said.

Social Development and Human Security Ministry permanent secretary Wallop Ploytaptim said the ministry heard about Lee two years ago and had taken her into state custody. But her parents asked for her to be returned home so they could send her to school.

Wallop said the ministry had given money to 120 families at a community near Yommarat railway line to start their own businesses but about 20 families, including Lee's, still put the lives of their children in danger by making them sell flowers and garlands at intersections. They believed children were able to sell more because people felt sorry for them."

Dr Devil
06-28-06, 11:50
Perhaps OTH and I were wrong to say 'lazy', i think perhaps easy / easy route would be more appropriate.

But the moral remains, don't borrow 100,000 in the first place. but if you have to, make sure you have more daughters :D

Whatever is the reason that attracted the WL to sell themselve varies as imaginative anyone could be but of course no one can deny the motivation of money. The population of WL as compared to the entire population of 63.36 millions as of 2003, is only a drop of water in the ocean. There are still many decent ladies who could live within their means and earn the hard way to feed their family.

There is no right or wrong them to be in this line, everyone of them has their history, reason and excuse. So let's continue enjoy them as a service provider for the service they providing, anything comes along the way is a bonus.

Thaid Up
06-28-06, 15:30
I stand by what I say about Thais and especially Isaan Thais not being too deep or paying attention to quality. I'm currently dealing with builders working on a studio at the university. I designed this studio to exact specifications. I can't get them to do it to the standards I want. They keep cutting corners to save time (not money) because they can't be bothered doing it right. Example: Instead of mitring the corners of the moulding around the base of the wall, they just butt-jointed it because it's easier. I went in, took one look at it, grabbed a claw hammer and ripped it out and told the guys to do it properly. They looked at me completely dumb-founded as they simply didn't get why it wasn't "good enough".I am surprised OTH all this time in Thailand and you acted like a carzy farang! They must of had a good laugh at your uncontrolled out burst. Boy you really taught them a lesson. Well the mistake is on your part, you selected an inappropriate contractor, now you are trying to teach them the proper way to do it. Well it isn't going to happen. You should have instead went to a few places that had the workmanship you were looking for, found out the contractor and went went them. Good luck on you project. You probably will either end up accepting the quality that they give you and switching to another contractor. This is just such a newbie mistake it gave me quit a laugh.

Seeko
06-28-06, 18:53
I stand by what I say about Thais and especially Isaan Thais not being too deep or paying attention to quality.
I would also add most Filipino workers and half of Korean wage earners. They don't understand the concept of conforming to industry standards, meeting customer's expectation, or even providing services and product per agreed contract and design specifications.


Boy you really taught them a lesson. Well the mistake is on your part, you selected an inappropriate contractor, now you are trying to teach them the proper way to do it. Well it isn't going to happen. You should have instead went to a few places that had the workmanship you were looking for, found out the contractor and went with them. Good luck on your project. You probably will either end up accepting the quality that they give you and switching to another contractor.
Most of the time (in Asian countries), we don't have the luxury or given the option of selecting a particular contractor. Either we are provided with one or told to accept one (read: someone's third-cousin or friend of a friend). Additionally, it's the language barrier. When you ask the sales rep for certain quality, he would readily say yes. And, so you sign the order forms...

Of course, that rep is not at the job site. Heck, you'd be luck if you get a decent on-site supervisor. So, the workers will do what is best in their mind and their interpretation of the job order. Ultimately, you become the supervisor, watching over their shoulders, carefully ensuring everything is done right. Oh, yeah, much frustration and big headache...

I've had my share of "micro-managing" contractors last year when we repainted our office, bought new furniture, and installed new network equipment. Yeah, I was an *ssh0le, but at least everyone loved the place afterward.

Seeko

Old Thai Hand
06-29-06, 03:02
I am surprised OTH all this time in Thailand and you acted like a carzy farang! They must of had a good laugh at your uncontrolled out burst. Boy you really taught them a lesson. Well the mistake is on your part, you selected an inappropriate contractor, now you are trying to teach them the proper way to do it. Well it isn't going to happen. You should have instead went to a few places that had the workmanship you were looking for, found out the contractor and went went them. Good luck on you project. You probably will either end up accepting the quality that they give you and switching to another contractor. This is just such a newbie mistake it gave me quit a laugh.

Actually, I didn't act crazy at all. I didn't do it in a rage. I simply did it, quietly to show him it was unacceptable and then I told him to do the job again. The contractor in question has been hired by the university and has nothing to do with me. He was not my choice, but, is typical of anyone I would get, anyway. You obviously have never worked with Thais or had this kind of work done if you can write such a newbie report. Look at the workmanship evident in most Thai buildings and you'll see this is not all that uncommon. Even the Thai government has recognized the need for better craftsmanship in this country by setting up The Thai Creative Design Center which is a project meant to foster international standards in Thai design, and more importantly production. The Thais are capable of doing it correctly. But, again it's their "good enough" attitude that prevents them from doing it. They just don't care most of the time, don't take any pride in their work and always cut corners.

1Ball
06-29-06, 03:33
OTH, what you are describing is prevalent in all industries in Indonesia, not just building.
To most SE asians, 50% is perfect.
To us, 110% is perfect.
Hence the problems.
I have the same headahces in my business, where they will do a shitty job, then spend twice the amount of time again to hide the defects, and make it look passable, instead of doing it right the first time. So actually it takes them twice as long to do the job. But they don't see that.
I know for a fact it also happens in Vietnam, Cambodia, PI, and probably more .

Old Thai Hand
06-29-06, 03:51
OTH, what you are describing is prevalent in all industries in Indonesia, not just building.
To most SE asians, 50% is perfect.
To us, 110% is perfect.
Hence the problems.
I have the same headahces in my business, where they will do a shitty job, then spend twice the amount of time again to hide the defects, and make it look passable, instead of doing it right the first time. So actually it takes them twice as long to do the job. But they don't see that.
I know for a fact it also happens in Vietnam, Cambodia, PI, and probably more .

Absolutely correct assessment. I had a friend who worked overseeing construction projects in Vietnam for 10 years and he said the same thing about the Vietnamese. He was here for 6 years and did however say, the Thais are much worse because at least the Vietnamese work hard, just badly.

Overall, there is absolutely no pride in a job well-done in SE Asia. The Thais admire the Japanese and Koreans immensely because of their economic successes, but fail to see why they have been successful: a work ethic that includes ingenuity, team-work, working long and hard and pride in the product. Some old-fashioned Protestant work-ethic would do people in SE Asia a lot of good. But, it will never happen. The habits are just too culturally in-grained for them to change. But, I still try to get them to do so, even if it's a losing battle. The Thais at least pay lip-service to a need to change and link this poor work attitude directly to their deplorable education system. But, the changes that they have implemented in that system have largely been blocked by those interested in maintaining the status quo. I teach the best students in Thailand. But, even most of them aren't all that interested in doing anymore than is necessary to get by. Of course, they all want "A" on their work, but won't do what it takes to get it, which is why there is such a prevalence of cheating here, that is far worse than one encounters in the West. This tendency to cheat then carries on into their working life in various ways, including doing a bad job and then trying to cover it up.

Piper1
06-29-06, 04:38
I'm starting to understand why so many Western posters who live in Thailand sound so frustrated (and lets face it - grumpy bestards).

Sticking fast to your own cultural values while living in a different culture, and thinking the different culture is inferior, will cause anxiety for you. Better to adapt a little, or go home.

Some cultures "live to work" (eg Japan, Korea, U.S. - highest suicide rates in the world). Some cultures "work to live", are more relaxed and enjoy life more (eg Thailand, Middle East, South America). Where would you rather be?

Anyway... Gentlemen, the purpose of this forum is ...

Thaid Up
06-29-06, 06:46
Actually, I didn't act crazy at all. I didn't do it in a rage. I simply did it, quietly to show him it was unacceptable and then I told him to do the job again. The contractor in question has been hired by the university and has nothing to do with me. He was not my choice, but, is typical of anyone I would get, anyway. You obviously have never worked with Thais or had this kind of work done if you can write such a newbie report. Actually quite wrong, I manage a company that has 30 Thai's and we perform manufacturing on the latest High-tech RF equipment that is exported worldwide to large multi-national companies. No problems in training my Thai workforce to work to proper quality standards.

I managed the 16M THB retrofit of a 1500 sq meter concrete shell with complete network infrastructure, chiller AC, controlled test floors and large industrial electrical outfitting. All done in three months to a construction qulaity that serves as a showcase for our worldwide operations.

Funny I am working with the same Thai labor pool as others here, but rather than complain, I have learned to work within the cultral bounds utilizing their strong points and improving their weak points through positive reinforcement rather than "This is the way it is done outside of Thailand"

As we say in America "There are those who do while those that don't teach"

The best part of all my accomplishments is that it is done learning no Thai language. It is more important to learn the Thai culture, than the language here unless you want to converse with the taxi drivers.

OTH the problem is your over generalization in all aspects of Thailand, be it your students, the workers, people from Issan. One tend to realize the expectations one sets therefore you reap what you sow.

Like Piper says better to move back home.

Seydlitz
06-29-06, 10:24
Anyway... Gentlemen, the purpose of this forum is ...

This discussion about sloppy standards and failing work ethics is absolutely relevant to the purpose of this forum. After all, working girls actually do work. Their approach to their own line of trade is impacted by the very same atitudes towards a job well done.

There are many of them who do provide us with a great experience, even though we know that the Thai attitude towards work should get them to do a poor job. Hence when they are having sex with us and are good at it, it must be because they do not consider it to be work at all. They must be having a good time too.

This is why I cannot entirely buy in the concept that working TGs find it hard to service us and only do it out of obligation.

Old Thai Hand
06-29-06, 10:57
This discussion about sloppy standards and failing work ethics is absolutely relevant to the purpose of this forum. After all, working girls actually do work. Their approach to their own line of trade is impacted by the very same atitudes towards a job well done.

There are many of them who do provide us with a great experience, even though we know that the Thai attitude towards work should get them to do a poor job. Hence when they are having sex with us and are good at it, it must be because they do not consider it to be work at all. They must be having a good time too.

This is why I cannot entirely buy in the concept that working TGs find it hard to service us and only do it out of obligation.

A nice spin on this and making perfect sense and relevance to the subject on this board. Sex, BTW is one thing that Thai women excel at. That's true, not just in P4P, but with Thai women in general.

Seeko
06-29-06, 11:22
A nice spin on this and making perfect sense and relevance to the subject on this board. Sex, BTW is one thing that Thai women excel at. That's true, not just in P4P, but with Thai women in general.
Concur with sex, but not necessarily service. Little acts and words to make the whole experience an awesome fantasy GFE. Or, makes one feel like an Emperor... (are there such as terms as CE=Concubine Experience or GE=Geisha Experience? ;) )

Anyway, check out Stew2's comparison between Thai and Japanese soapies:
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=478405&postcount=1516

Seeko

The Traveler
06-29-06, 21:15
Thai food = 3 times a day, 15 baht a meal, 31 days =1,395 (this would be less because they would not buy every meal, cooking for 4 is cheaper)

Meaty,

a simple "good diauw" is already 20 baht, other dishes like "pad thai" are more expensive and do you really try to tell me that she could cook a meal for less than 15 baht ? That wasn't possible even twenty years ago, just look at the prices for meat and let's not forget other ingredients like noodles, spices plus gas if you use a gas burner, otherwise the bill for electric will be higher.

And even if your math would be correct, what kind of life is that ?



So if i were very poor, worked in a factory, and lived exactly as that demagraphic does, i could save around 1,000 baht per month
Total = Loan, 100,000
Yr 1, 100,000 x 5% = 105,000 - 12,000 = 93,000
Yr 2, 93,000 x 5% = 97,650 - 12,000 = 85,650
Yr 3, 85,650 x 5% = 89,932 - 12,000 = 77,932
Yr 4, 77,932 x 5% = 81,829 - 12,000 = 69,829
Would it be fair to say after these 4yrs, the salary may increase by 1,000 baht per month ? Lets say she pays half of that into her loan
Yr 5, 69,829 x 5% = 73,320 - 18,000 = 55,320
Yr 6, 55,320 x 5% = 58,086 - 18,000 = 40,086
Yr 7, 40,086 x 5% = 42,090 - 18,000 = 24,090
Yr 8, 24,090 x 5% = 25,294 - 18,000 = 7,294
Yr 9, 7,294 x 5% = 7,658 DEBT PAID

Please read more careful, the interest rate isn't 5% per year, it's 3-5% PER MONTH !!!
In case you don't believe me, ask your wife again. This is the normal interest rate for these amounts lend out at villages, smaller amounts are often even lend out for 10% per month.
Now recalculate and only start with 30.000 baht debt. You will see that the money that could be saved from her salary will just pay the interest but never the debt.

The Traveler
06-29-06, 21:38
OTH the problem is your over generalization in all aspects of Thailand, be it your students, the workers, people from Issan.

I agree...

Old Thai Hand
06-30-06, 03:17
I agree...

me too. except concerning Thai students. I think I am in a good position to make generalizations about them having taught perhaps upwards of 10,000 of them since coming here. In other cases, perhaps you're right.

I'm sure Traveler was hoping I would get all defensive and we could get into another protracted debate here. But, it's not going to happen. I've had enough of this board and don't want to play anymore.

Thaid Up

I agree with you, too. Yes, I sometimes generalize to make a point and perhaps go too far. I also appologize for assuming you didn't work with Thais.

But, I will also tell you that without going into details, in the past I was one of the department managers of a large, well-known Thai company employing 2300 Thais. I witnessed Thai incompetence from top to bottom on a daily basis. I could site dozens of examples over my nearly 10 years here that could easily counter anything you could say. However, for the most part, I have learned to work within the confines of the Thai way of doing things, as you seem to have. I don't really get frustrated with them as it may appear and can get them to do things the right way as you do. If I didn't do so, I would either have had a heart-attack by now or gone home.

You are luckily working within a controlled situation where you are the boss and can tailor things in whatever way you want to achieve your objectives. But, if you are like me and in the middle of an extremely large organization within an even larger system rife with anachronisms, archaic thinking and imcompetence, where people are more concerned with maintaining their own positions than improving the way things are done, you might not be so "positive" about working with Thais.

Even you refer to the fact that you have to deal with their "weak points" and retrain them. Let's face it it, that takes extra effort, which wouldn't be necessary if they had a better education system that instilled in them better working habits.

Anyway, as Piper said, "The purpose of this forum is..." I don't think we should continue on this anymore. Let's agree to disagree and you can continue to think of me in a disaparaging way, if you wish.

BTW...The expression is: "Those who can do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym."

Thaid Up
06-30-06, 05:01
OTH,

I quite frankly do not know anything about the Thai educational system. Some of my people have been educated in the USA and we have additionally sent many more on extended stays at our USA home office for training as well.

Additionally, we have sent some of our people on-site to customer locations where they installed some of the equipment that was either built or repaired in Thailand.

Given that accountability, many quality problems are soon rectified with the Thai's know that their name will be associated with the final output.

Yes, you would need to be in control, I would not want to be in a Thai sandwich with Thai upper management, me in the middle and a Thai workforce. The only acceptable Thai sandwich is between two Thai girls.

Old Thai Hand
06-30-06, 10:27
OTH,

I quite frankly do not know anything about the Thai educational system. Some of my people have been educated in the USA and we have additionally sent many more on extended stays at our USA home office for training as well.

Additionally, we have sent some of our people on-site to customer locations where they installed some of the equipment that was either built or repaired in Thailand.

Given that accountability, many quality problems are soon rectified with the Thai's know that their name will be associated with the final output.

Yes, you would need to be in control, I would not want to be in a Thai sandwich with Thai upper management, me in the middle and a Thai workforce. The only acceptable Thai sandwich is between two Thai girls.


Glad you can at least appreciate my dilemma. At present I'm between dinosaurs above me who are committed to actually not doing a better job to protect their financial and power interests and indifferent people below me who see no advantage in doing better because my bosses are quite satisified with the mediocrity and they don't want to rock the boat.

Yes, preference would be being sandwiched between two Thai girls. =o)
Peace.

Seydlitz
06-30-06, 11:01
Glad you can at least appreciate my dilemma.

At least, you are not stuck between overdemanding bosses and underdelivering staff...

Seeko
06-30-06, 14:15
At least, you are not stuck between overdemanding bosses and underdelivering staff...
Hey, you just read my mind and described my exact position. ;)

Yeah, it's one of the reasons why I make weekend trips almost every month down to LOS. Gets me away from the idiot-syncracies and helps me forget all the worries, leading to a relaxing time in a stress-free environment.

Ah, Thailand. The cure to the common...

Oh, it's worth the flight time and all the money spent. :)

Seeko

Seydlitz
06-30-06, 14:34
Hey, you just read my mind and described my exact position. ;)


Actually I had in mind my own predicament. And for me, a weekend in LOS is just not an option. If only LOS was closer ...

Old Thai Hand
07-01-06, 04:08
At least, you are not stuck between overdemanding bosses and underdelivering staff...

To some extent I am. But, at least I have a hot 21 y.o. TG to go home to every day to relieve the stress.

The Traveler
07-01-06, 07:44
I'm sure Traveler was hoping I would get all defensive and we could get into another protracted debate here. But, it's not going to happen. I've had enough of this board and don't want to play anymore.

OTH,

I agreed with another member - and if you read carefully you will see that I only agreed to a certain point of his post - nothing more or less. It's up to you IF and HOW you will reply, I have no expectations in this regard and make no assumptions about your behaviour.

Youir remark only shows that you allege others of having dishonest motives and make assumptions about them, even without knowing them at all.

Comments like these are absolutely dispensibable and will only move any discussion to a personal level which nobody wants.

Old Thai Hand
07-01-06, 11:45
Comments like these are absolutely dispensibable and will only move any discussion to a personal level which nobody wants.

mai khao jai =o)...NOTHING PERSONAL

Retired Army
07-01-06, 12:18
Glad you can at least appreciate my dilemma. At present I'm between dinosaurs above me who are committed to actually not doing a better job to protect their financial and power interests and indifferent people below me who see no advantage in doing better because my bosses are quite satisified with the mediocrity and they don't want to rock the boat.

Yes, preference would be being sandwiched between two Thai girls. =o)
Peace.

And you think you are the only one in such a situation. It's the same working for the American Government.

Old Thai Hand
07-02-06, 03:51
And you think you are the only one in such a situation. It's the same working for the American Government.

True...maybe everywhere. I worked in the Caribbean for 9 months last year and found it strangely not that different from Thailand in many ways: Incompetent bosses above, indifferent workers (and students) below.

Perhaps the "Peter Principle" is universal afterall.

Seeko
07-02-06, 12:13
Smart boss + smart employee = profit
Smart boss + dumb employee = production
Dumb boss + smart employee = promotion
Dumb boss + dumb employee = overtime

Q: does this apply to Thailand?

The Traveler
07-02-06, 23:40
Traveler

You make a lot of assumptions about me, my GF etc. which are all wrong.

Brotherhood????? No thanks!!!!....Man! You crack me up...LOL

Originally, Dutch Boy simply wanted to know about the differences between TGs. I answered him based on my experience and this prompted the usual replies, which I then responded to in my usual way which then prompted the usual righteous indignation.....

Seems I pissed off a number of people. mmmmmmmmmmmm. I guess my work here is done for the day.
OTH,

I don't make assumptions, I just named a few other alternatives which might lead to the same result.

Furthermore the purpose of this forum is to help each other to find women for sex, not to tell others that they aren't able to get the same girls you get.

I appreciate your views and read your posts with interest as I believe that you are one of the very few in here who have a deep insight in Thai society and know what you talk about. Your experiences often match mine but I oppose your extreme exaggerations and over generalisations.

You said that you do so to "provoke".
So why do you complain if people take up your bait and respond to it ?

Why not just post your true opinions rather than trying to provoke ?
I personally have doubts that you do so just to provoke. From day one you acted like that and I assume that you really believe in what you say. Why else the very same approach since years ?

Your constant attacks against Thai Isaan or english teachers for example, show quite clear that you have a lot of prejudices and feel superior to them.
Why is that ?
Or telling us that you can get univ girls, but as soon as another member did one too, you gonna tell us that it wasn't a "right" univ girl opposite to your's.

In short, I don't doubt your knowledge, but I oppose your attitude of feeling superior to others.

You aren't neither better nor worse than anyone, we are all the same. We were all born under different circumstances, have made different experiences, have different obligations and act accordingly.

Seeko
07-03-06, 16:14
Some people are fixated on university girls, and others on Hi-So/Mid-So TG's. And, there was a brief mention of bank tellers and immigration officers. We won't mention lawyers, politicians, or IT professionals for obvious reasons. So, what about toll booth ladies, bus fare collectors, and golf caddies?

Now, I had a dilemma a while back with a sexy pool hustler (see attached pix). We bet her barfine on the game.
Q: do I let her win and pay for everything knowing that she'd be good to me later? Or, would she let me win making me feel like a champ but later making me feel guilty and fork out everything?

I'm still not sure who won in the end...
Seeko

PosterLion
07-03-06, 16:19
Beat the crap put of her in pool and see if she welches on the bet or not. If she doesn't welch and gives you a great lay, then pay her a couple thousand baht and tell her it's your naamjai.

After that get her phone number because you've likely found a very decent (and hard to find) girl inside the sundry P4P mix.

poster . . .

Old Thai Hand
07-04-06, 16:56
OTH,

This is interesting. Would you mind elaborating a little on this? I am sure many could benefit from some insight about TG's perception of difference of age. I certainly would.

Incidentally, I should be a the Lodge later this month, so that you might enlighten me in person.


Young TGs Attraction to Older Farang Men

Yes, it's true for all you cynics. Many young TGs are actually attracted to Older Farang men for relatively sincere and simple reasons.

However, the first thing to forget immediately is the P4P girls' concept of this. It has less relevance because their motives are somewhat subverted by their profession. They are for the most part driven solely by money even if they "go straight" as it were and marry a punter. However, even they can get their heads around this concept of age difference relatively easily because age differences between men and women are not such a big issue generally in the culture.

However, there are some differences in attitude between ordinary urban and upcountry girls concerning this with urban girls less inclined than country girls to go for a much older guy unless he provides some advantage; not necessarily monetary but probably more likely status-based in some way. I think for example that, I’m fortunate to have a status-based position which I feel has played a large part in me getting younger TGs. I’m quite realistic about that. But, when they get to know me, it’s then my charm and personality that keeps them around…LOL

Many upcountry girls being more tradition-bound look for a strong individual who is responsible and will take care of them and they equate this with age. When I say take care of them, I don't necessarily mean financially although in many cases I'm sure that factors into it in a big way. However, the responsibility issue has a lot more to do with behaviour and this by far is the most important factor in all of this: not being a drunk, not gambling, working hard, being good to women and being family-oriented. It is a direct reaction to the general irresponsible behaviour of Thai men, especially the young men with which a lot of young girls have had experience. This prompts them to seek something completely opposite. As well, they tend to eschew older Thai men as being just older versions of the young guys they're trying to escape.

One of the things that all TGs, whatever their status and wherever they come from agree on is that Farang are responsible, take care of their women, are far less selfish and far more romantic than Thai men. I have heard this over and over again from all kinds of TGs since I first got here. My female students were talking about it as recently as today. Of course, this idea has largely come from their exposure to western media, especially romantic movies. But, I think there might be a lot of truth in it, nevertheless. I think Farang are generally more responsible because we come out of societies where the cultures promote fairness, equality and strong laws to protect everyone and above all, self-reliance. We are also from cultures that express emotions more easily and this has become a huge draw for Thai women tired of the relative awkwardness and lack of finesse of your average Thai man when it comes to showing any tenderness. Thai men also get away with being useless, irresponsible, selfish wankers because it's a patriarchal society in which mothers over-protect their sons well into their adult life, while failing miserably to teach them respect for women, family responsibility, self-sufficiency and loyalty of any kind. This is then re-enforced by a legal system that favours men and does nothing to protect women and children. It is a society in which men in particular refuse to accept responsibility of any kind especially when lower down on the ladder. They look to Poo-yai to take charge and therefore show no “get-up-and-go”. But, even the Poo-yai (look at Taksin as a glaring example) are totally irresponsible and under-handed. All of this adds up to many TGs viewing Farang, and their behaviour and attitude towards women as being far superior to Thai men. This view of Farang men doesn't generally extend to younger Farang men quite as much as you'd think because a lot of TGs think that young Farang men, while being better than young Thai men in most ways are still irresponsible and above all butterflies. They just don't trust them. I know many TGs who’ve had 20-something Farang BFs only to finally get rid of them for older guys, when they found the young Farang acting a lot like Thai men.

This brings us back to old farts like me. Older guys with all our worldly experience and confidence are a natural draw. Despite our cynicism in thinking that when TGs say they don’t care about looks, they’re just being polite, there is actually a lot of truth in it. As long as you’re reasonably well turned out and don’t look like a garden gnome or a sumo wrestler, you’re pretty well acceptable to most TGs. When I asked my current GF why she wanted to be with me, because she really could get any guy she wanted, she said she wanted a “leader” in her life. I’ve heard this a great deal from TGs. The word “Leader” is often used. I’ve often seen it in TGs online profiles on countless personals websites…”Looking for a leader in my life…” Again it’s the strength of character, responsibility, relative lack of selfishness and self-confidence when compared to Thai men that attracts them. There is a long history within the culture of big age differences in relationships (tied as it is to the whole Mia Noi concept of a minor or “little” wife), which makes it acceptable in contrast to the west where it always raises eyebrows and the general belief of gold-digging women and rich old guys on their death-beds.

Obviously, in some cases maybe TGs are looking for a father figure. I’ve encountered that a few times. To emphasize this fact, it is a big deal for a TG to call you “Daddy” and you to call her “Baby”… Please don’t laugh =o) … I first encountered this phenomenon the first few months I was here when a really old Thai hand with whom I worked announced quite excitedly that one of the hot girls in the office had expressed interest in him and asked if she could call him “Daddy”. Seeing my bemused expression, he then quickly explained the cultural significance of this and what an honour it was and more importantly what the romantic implications of it were. I guess I’ve arrived at the same point being the same age as he was 9 years ago when this happened to him because within the last year I’ve had 3 different young girls, including one of my students ask to call me “Daddy” and for me to call them “Baby”. This might seem silly to you (it certainly did to me when I first heard it). But, it signifies the utmost respect for the “Daddy”, while also promising a major sexual relationship. So, don’t knock it ‘till you’ve tried it.

I’d also like to stress that with the Internet, the opportunity for all of this is not confined as much as it used to be to those like me who live here. I know many young TGs (not necessarily after money, either) who chat online with older men in western countries and form virtual relationships with them and eventually of course finally meet with them when they come to Thailand. This is the subject of a whole other post, which I might get around to writing one of these days because I met my current GF online and have had considerable experience with the whole TG online dating phenomenon.

The bottom line is despite what some posters here may think concerning young girls just trying to nail an ATM, there are a lot of TGs from all walks of life looking for Farang-style love and they see in older Farang men a greater chance of a stable and long-lasting relationship.

PosterLion
07-04-06, 18:48
OTH,

I think you're spot on. One thing I regret . . .

I wish I'd have read your post last year because it was the first time a woman (much younger than I) asked if she could call me Daddy.

If I'd only knew! :)

===

My current GF is a good example of what your essay portrays. While it is true I met her in a P4P experience, it is not true that she is a hardened veteran in the P4P area.

In general, she's a normal girl that usually has a boyfriend from two to five years. She speaks French, English, and of course Thai. I guess I made that point to provide a working example of her intelligence. And yes, she is someone that a person can discuss "things of meaning" with.

That said, the reason why I think she fits within the bounds of your essay is because she is reaching the age of conclusions, meaning that "father time" is telling her it could be getting close to the "time" she thought about having children.

Admittedly, she is not a "21 y/o" like your girl and setting my possible jealousy aside, I'm actually happy with the situation because she sure as heck does not look anywhere near the 33 years of age that her ID card suggests. In all honesty, I am extremely flattered that she is actually considering me as a potential candidate.

I know that I am probably not considered a very stable person because of the many freewheeling posts I've made on this board concerning the many various and sundry alternative, unhealthy, and sometimes illegal activities that I've chosen to partake in___ but in reality, I consider myself an above average person in being above board in both my words and actions. On the other hand, I have never considered myself a good father figure because of all the silly things I've done. ;)

What! This is starting to sound like a confession! I must remember that you're a professor, not a priest! :)

Anyway, our relationship has completely morphed out of the P4P scene and into an area somewhere near family planning. I'm not sure I'm up to the task and all of the personal details of this relationship are beside the point.

The MAIN point is that I agree with you: 1) Thai girls many times do prefer farangs for a relationship and 2) being older is not a bad thing.

My case more closely fits the Thai girls prefer farangs premise than it does the older man/younger girl premise, because I am 43 and she 33. But even so, I still think you are spot on with your comments.

cheers,
poster . . .

Old Thai Hand
07-05-06, 03:55
Poster

Thanks!

Even P4P girls, because they're coming from the same culture would have many of the same feelings as other TGs. Many of them have had the worst of bad treatment at the hands of Thai men and may be in the bars looking for a Farang saviour as much for love as for money. So, there's validity in what you say. However, why I think that it is a different scenario for P4P girls has a lot to do with the quality of Farang they're often meeting, which isn't always very good and also just the sheer numbers of them. Coupled with this is the motivation of the Farang they're meeting and the initial relationships they form which is very different from that of an ordinary TG. So, I think that generally they're in a much more difficult position to form the kind of relationship I'm talking about.

So much is written warning Farang about falling in love with BGs. But, looking at it from the other side, it's not always great for the BG either because many of the Farang guys hanging around the P4P scene are less than stellar characters who have the wrong ideas about these girls and often the wrong motivations for getting involved with them. (I don't mean you, BTW).

In contrast to this, the vast majority of TGs have had little or no experience with Farang. I think this is something that many here forget because their whole experience is with the P4P scene and they think therefore that all TGs know about and have experience with Farang. But, the truth is that Farang are still, comparatively speaking a rarity in Thailand and therefore we remain a huge source of curiousity for Thais in general. During my first 2 1/2 years here I lived in area where there were virtually no Farang. I would literally get stared and pointed at and hear shouts of "Farang" every day when I walked down my soi. I never stopped being a source of interest to my neighbours, who never seemed to get used to seeing me there. Even in places where there are Farang, many Thais don't really know much about them and have little interaction with them. I've met loads of Thai women who had never met a Farang until they met me. My current GF is a case in point. She came to BKK to meet me and I literally was the first Farang she had ever even seen for real (pity her that she had to start with me).
So, unlike BGs the naiivity factor of your average TG concerning Farang is a huge difference that ultimately creates a different sort of relationship.

PosterLion
07-05-06, 10:11
OTH,

To add a bit to your last post, I'd like to comment on the naivete of many farang men. Some of the antics and/or typical behavior I see farang men performing in the BG/P4P scene are case in point. Example: men that compete with other men for a girl working in a go-go bar, in a sense creating a bidding war for the girl. Or in other cases, trying to make a girl jealous by going with a different girl.

I've seen this behavior repeated over and over and it never ceases to amaze me, causing me to ask the same question each time, "Do these men (or walking penises) actually think they can win a girl by flying a currency flag over their heads?"

I've never participated in such folly because I'm certain this type of romantic (not) behavior will never win a women's heart, although it will go a long way to gratifying her ego. Lastly, the woman's ego will then start on a course of expansion that will never stop. In essence, she will never have enough simply because the human ego can never be sated. I'm certain of that. Why else would I be typing this post?

At the end of it all, there is a man with a broken heart and a broken wallet asking himself, "Why me?" And there is a woman transformed into Samson's Delilah wondering, "Will I ever find somebody I can love?"

poster . . .

Member #3409
07-05-06, 10:34
OTH,
At the end of it all, there is a man with a broken heart and a broken wallet asking himself, "Why me?" And there is a woman transformed into Samson's Delilah wondering, "Will I ever find somebody I can love?"
poster . . .


Interesting observation and when you think about it very true indeed!!!

Old Thai Hand
07-05-06, 11:00
Poster...

I never quite understand the whole dynamic of the P4P scene anyway. It's such a bizarre and surreal world that I wonder why anyone would go into it for reasons other than the obvious. To think you're going to find the love of your life there is utter folly. You may be one of the few who's done this. But, there are thousands who have crashed and burned. It's hard enough for a Farang to have a relationship with a TG because of the greatness of the cultural divide without adding into the mix prostitution, a fast life of easy money and constant partying, sleeping all day and dancing naked or semi-naked in a bar every night, not to mention the perverse attitude constant exposure to many Farang of questionable character can foster. To watch the antics of guys at NEP, the Biergarten and a variety of other places is wonder whether any of these guys ever had any understanding of or respect for women in the first place.

But...Isn't this a tired subject. Who cares about guys who fall in love with BGs? It's not like there hasn't been enough written about it and enough warnings about it.

Jack Spratt
07-05-06, 11:53
QUOTE=Retired Army
Thirty years ago when I was first in Thailand it was taboo to even hold hands in public much less kiss. Then the Americans arrived and around the military bases you saw just about anything from holding hands to kissing and out right groping. The more formal Thais really looked down on this sort of behaivor and many still do. QUOTE


RA I am not surprised that the more formal Thais, (or even the less formal ones for that matter) would look down on that sort of behaviour from Americans around the military bases - can we assume it was with each other!

jack

PosterLion
07-05-06, 14:10
OTH,

It’s a tired subject, but even so, it is still a surreal canvas filled with a million shades of gray, which is one of my favorite colors. It is the surreal and the gray that attracted me to the P4P seen in the first place and all the warnings shouted on this board was a motivating factor for me when attempting a relationship with a BG. I don’t consider my current girlfriend a BG at all, but my last one was 100% BG.

Anyway, here are some definitions for the benefit of vocabulary. I’d like to add to the definition of the word “strange.” Back in Oklahoma, when someone was planning to hit the bars for the purpose of getting laid we called it, “Looking for some strange.”

The next day a friend of someone that was looking for some strange the night before might ask, “Did ya get some strange last night?”

To which the reply might be something along the lines of, “She was a genuine Salvador Dali.” :)

poster . . .

surreal >adjective having the qualities of surrealism; bizarre.

bizarre >adjective strange; unusual.

strange >adjective 1 unusual or surprising. 2 not previously visited, seen, or encountered. 3 (strange to/at/in) archaic unaccustomed to or unfamiliar with. 4 Physics denoting one of the six flavors of quark.

unusual >adjective 1 not habitually or commonly done or occurring. 2 remarkable; exceptional.

surrealism >noun an avant-garde 20th-century movement in art and literature which sought to release the creative potential of the unconscious mind, for example by the irrational juxtaposition of images.

Seeko
07-05-06, 17:51
"Do these men (or walking penises) actually think they can win a girl by flying a currency flag over their heads?"
Well, somebody did. :o

Last time I was in Long Gun, this 50-something farang did just that. He came in at the start of the 3-lady acrobatic dance routine, started buying lady drinks for the mamasans, cashiers, DJ, DJ's girlfriend, and a couple of go-go girls. Then, out of the blue, he gave 3 1000 Baht notes to the DJ's GF and had her tip the dancers. Of course, there was some light girl-on-girl action during the exchange of money, but still, who gave away that much so easily. Then, to top it all off, he had barfined all 3 dancers, DJ's GF, and another go-go girl. Apparently, he planned to take them all out to dinner later. So, the girls went on with their business and waited till closing for him to come back and collect them. Ok, I'm sure he won't be scoring with the DJ's GF or the 3 dancers, so he must be trying to impress the go-go girl. Not that he needs to, so why do the whole "I have money to burn" bit?

And, why take all the girls? Give a little and let other mongers have a chance, i.e. come back later, and then, barfine anyone who is left, vice marking them all as his property so early in the night.

These big spenders need to read ISG... ;)

Seeko

The Traveler
07-05-06, 20:17
And since we don't know anything about your GF it could be any reason why she is staying with you. Women all over the world choose men due to their status, money etc. and Thai women aren't different at all, in the end they are women too.


Traveler
You make a lot of assumptions about me, my GF etc. which are all wrong.



..to go for a much older guy unless he provides some advantage; not necessarily monetary but probably more likely status-based in some way. I think for example that, I’m fortunate to have a status-based position which I feel has played a large part in me getting younger TGs. I’m quite realistic about that.

OTH,

now you confirm what you have called "making assumptions" before.
Seems that "my assumptions" were spot on.

Anyway, I agree with what you said. But it's not only typical for Thais, women all over the world often feel more secure (not just financially) with an older guy and believe that they are more predictable and stable.

My ex-GF called me "Daddy" a few times, even though I am not old enough to be her daddy. I told her that I don't like it, not because it makes me feel old but because a "Daddy" should never fuck his "Baby".

Old Thai Hand
07-06-06, 00:51
OTH,

now you confirm what you have called "making assumptions" before.
Seems that "my assumptions" were spot on.



Judging from your recent behaviour, I seem to be your "flavour of the month" as you seem to go out of your way to pick apart everything I say with the idea of discrediting me or whatever. I'm sure if I had the time to do so and was actually inclined that way, I could go through your posts and find contradictions and other things to nit-pick about. But, I have neither the time nor inclination. You have become boring and tiresome and I'm not interested in explaining or justifying myself to you anymore. You win. Happy, now?

Rikusa
07-06-06, 03:12
Old Thai Hand,

Nana parking lot lizard Says: Thai lady love old farang "Die Quick".

Xkr Man
07-06-06, 04:39
Well, somebody did. :o

Last time I was in Long Gun, this 50-something farang did just that. He came in at the start of the 3-lady acrobatic dance routine, started buying lady drinks for the mamasans, cashiers, DJ, DJ's girlfriend, and a couple of go-go girls. Then, out of the blue, he gave 3 1000 Baht notes to the DJ's GF and had her tip the dancers. Of course, there was some light girl-on-girl action during the exchange of money, but still, who gave away that much so easily. Then, to top it all off, he had barfined all 3 dancers, DJ's GF, and another go-go girl. Apparently, he planned to take them all out to dinner later. So, the girls went on with their business and waited till closing for him to come back and collect them. Ok, I'm sure he won't be scoring with the DJ's GF or the 3 dancers, so he must be trying to impress the go-go girl. Not that he needs to, so why do the whole "I have money to burn" bit?

And, why take all the girls? Give a little and let other mongers have a chance, i.e. come back later, and then, barfine anyone who is left, vice marking them all as his property so early in the night.

These big spenders need to read ISG... ;)

SeekoSeeko

Who cares its not like theres not enough grils to go around besides its his money he should spend it any way he wants Iam so tired of hearing these guys poor guys getting flamed for over paying and how they are messing the market up live and let live its there money just my opinon no flame intended

Xkrman

Old Thai Hand
07-06-06, 09:36
Old Thai Hand,

Nana parking lot lizard Says: Thai lady love old farang "Die Quick".

What's that's supposed to mean???

Seeko
07-06-06, 12:09
Seeko
Who cares its not like theres not enough grils to go around besides its his money he should spend it any way he wants Iam so tired of hearing these guys poor guys getting flamed for over paying and how they are messing the market up live and let live its there money just my opinon no flame intended
Xkrman
Oh, don't you start me on this topic.

Before I even reply, first, I recommend that you read my posts carefully. Note the additions of smileys :) and winks ;). They are indications that I am either joking or not being serious, in order to diffuse a boiling situation or bring a bit of light comedy to the threads. Unless, I specifically ask a question or request for an opinion, there is no need to respond to my posts.

Two, I recommend that you read the Forum Rules & Posting Guidelines (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-forumrules.php), so that you stop violating a couple of the basics.

Ok, now, back to our regularly-scheduled serious debate:

There's over-paying (and, I'm guilty of a few). And, there's spending way too much to spoil the market (and, I'm not in that category). This situation is the latter case.

FYI, 1000 Baht is a lot of money. Check Freeler's post:
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=476085&postcount=412

And, to pay BF early and take up the girls time?
This not only prevents other punters from having try their luck, it also not allow the girls to take a better opportunity if and when it comes along. BTW, the rich farang in question is well-known, so the mamasans would make sure that the girls wouldn't go ST in-between or welch on the dinner plan. They just sat outside or in a corner alone in-between their dance routines. Sad...

Seeko

Retired Army
07-06-06, 12:36
Old Thai Hand was "spot on" again. The only thing he left out of his post was having their Thai boyfriend/husband get drunk and slap them around. Older farangs usually know better. And they don't want their dicks ending up as duck food.

PosterLion
07-06-06, 13:44
"I'm worried that I'm losing my wife's love," the husband told the counselor.
"Has she started to neglect you?"
"Not at all," the dejected man replied.
"She meets me at the door with a cold drink and a warm kiss. My shirts are always ironed, she's a great cook, the house is always neat, she keeps the kids out of my hair. She let's me choose the television shows we watch and she never objects to sex or says she has a headache."
"So what's the problem."
"Maybe I'm just being too sensitive,", the husband ventured, "but at night, when she thinks I'm sleeping, she puts her lips close to my ear and whispers, Die! You son of a b-i-t-c-h, die!"

Piper1
07-06-06, 16:52
I was going to keep out of this one, but what the heck: I found the "student affair" discussion between OTH and others interesting, if not a bit repetitive. My rules for survival have been not to screw (I mean have sex) with people involved in my professional life, especially those who rely on me (and vice-versa), or with my wife's friends (oh, or the maid). Many tempting girls and many direct and indirect offers over the years, but I'm not interested (Well, I would be if didn't involve the professional relationship! :)). Life is complex enough - who needs the added complications? (Funnily enough, I've heard second-hand that some of my students find this professional-distance approach alluring, making them even more flirty).

Duniawala
07-06-06, 18:43
I was going to keep out of this one, but what the heck: I found the "student affair" discussion between OTH and others interesting, if not a bit repetitive. My rules for survival have been not to screw (I mean have sex) with people involved in my professional life, especially those who rely on me (and vice-versa).
Not to make an issue out of it, but how can it be interesting if it is repititive. And as you rightly say, never s**t where you eat.

Dinghy
07-06-06, 19:43
Poster - remember the first rule - Noids always come in pairs

Piper1
07-06-06, 22:15
Not to make an issue out of it, but how can it be interesting if it is repititive. And as you rightly say, never s**t where you eat.Duni - good point, and it deserves deeper psycholinguistic analysis. :D

The Traveler
07-07-06, 00:04
Judging from your recent behaviour, I seem to be your "flavour of the month" as you seem to go out of your way to pick apart everything I say with the idea of discrediting me or whatever. I'm sure if I had the time to do so and was actually inclined that way, I could go through your posts and find contradictions and other things to nit-pick about. But, I have neither the time nor inclination. You have become boring and tiresome and I'm not interested in explaining or justifying myself to you anymore. You win. Happy, now?
OTH,

I am not after you and it's not about to win or loose, that's crap.
I have defended you more than once and I agree when you say things that I believe to be true.
But that doesn't mean that I always have to agree.

When I said that we don't know why your girl stays with you and that it might be status for example, you tried to discredit me, saying I just make assumtions and denied it. Later on, in another context you just confirm it.

Question is, why did you deny it in the first place ?
Is it so hard to be honest or did you want to draw a certain picture of yourself and your girl ?

I did not make any assumption, just named possibilities. But as usual you read more into it than I actually said.

I also don't need to go through any of your posts. My memory still works fine.

All discussions "provoked" (your own words) by you take the same course.
First you start off with some statements - which are often true or at least match my own experiences - but by exaggerating and over generalizing everything to provoke us (again your own words) you render them invalid.

Then you try to argue if people oppose you. When you finally run out of arguments you either end up by reposting those statements in a modest form and moderate tone or by saying you are bored and trying to make fun out of your opponents. That's childish.

If you have an opinion, stand up for it but we aren't your students, so don't believe everybody may take everything you say for granted, you need more to convince people than just saying "I am right, I know it".

Due to this behaviour, you post a lot of contradictions because you often say what seems to be opportune to support your agenda. But wasn't that one of those attitudes your criticized at Thais ? Their opportunistic behaviour ?

If you believe that you will be able to find any contradictions in any of my posts, feel free to search for them. I am quite sure that there aren't any.

Finally, I never attacked you as a person, only allowed myself to criticize these over generalizations and the attitude which stands behind it. I am not the only one in here who thinks that you often come across very condescending towards a certain part of the Thai population and farangs with a certain profession.

A Prof at the #1 univ in LOS should be able to discuss an issue but if you can't stand criticism you shouldn't "provoke" a discussion.

Final question is : Why do you feel the need to "provoke" and do not just post your opinions without any provocation ?

PosterLion
07-07-06, 01:09
Poster - remember the first rule - Noids always come in pairs

Do they like Pizza as well? :)

Horatio
07-07-06, 01:30
If you believe that you will be able to find any contradictions in any of my posts, feel free to search for them. I am quite sure that there aren't any.





"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." Walt Whitman

PosterLion
07-07-06, 04:37
To a Common Prostitute.

Be composed - be at ease with me - I am Walt Whitman, liberal
and lusty as Nature,
Not till the sun excludes you do I exclude you,
Not till the waters refuse to glisten for you and the leaves to rustle
for you, do my words refuse to glisten and rustle for you.

My girl I appoint with you an appointment, and I charge you that
you make preparation to be worthy to meet me,
And I charge you that you be patient and perfect till I come.

Till then I salute you with a significant look that you do not forget
me.

- Walt Whitman

Old Thai Hand
07-07-06, 04:37
Traveler

Good post. Well written. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to bore guys here with our protracted sand-box fight and because I simply don't wish to engage in "I said-you said" debates with you anymore.



"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." Walt Whitman

Nicely put and very appropos!



I was going to keep out of this one, but what the heck: I found the "student affair" discussion between OTH and others interesting, if not a bit repetitive. My rules for survival have been not to screw (I mean have sex) with people involved in my professional life, especially those who rely on me (and vice-versa), or with my wife's friends (oh, or the maid). Many tempting girls and many direct and indirect offers over the years, but I'm not interested (Well, I would be if didn't involve the professional relationship! :)). Life is complex enough - who needs the added complications? (Funnily enough, I've heard second-hand that some of my students find this professional-distance approach alluring, making them even more flirty).


Repetitive and boring. Even I'm bored with it. Since most here are not in a position to benefit or suffer, depending on what lines you cross because they're not in my shoes (ie. teachers), why should anyone care about the teacher-student issue anyway?

It usually arises because someone says something about "a student" or shows a pic of "a student" then I, oh so predicably get on my high horse and pontificate. Yes, I admit it. I'm sometimes full of shit.

At the end of the day, student or otherwise, she's a young woman of the same relative age as a freelancer at Nana parking lot, a BG or whatever and as a colleague of mine stated to me, turn off the lights and its basically the same experience.

However...there is something extra sexy about the uniform, the fact that she's a student (role-play, I guess), that it isn't a cash and carry situation and that she's not a hardened pro. Also, they're just aesthetically more pleasing to look at than most BGs, IMHO.

But, since I got the GF, I've stopped with all of this, anyway. But, in reference to your students getting flirty, Piper...ever since I got a GF, a lot of my students, not to mention girls in general that I know actually are getting more suggestive with me. Forbidden fruit, perhaps (in both directions)? It's certainly tempting.

Rikusa
07-07-06, 04:51
What's that's supposed to mean???OTH,

Just that in my few years of going to BKK I have had many friends (BG) explain to me that Thai ladies would give up there youth to land an "Old Farang" who would not live long as there allready well into there 60's! And be well taken care of for the rest of their young lives! You suggested they like the prestige of status. I think not! Just the support for them and there families We can provide.

Also, would you agree that most become addicted to the lifestyle very quickly. Much the way we do when visiting LOS.

SE Asia Joe
07-07-06, 05:41
Hey Guys - you want to respond to my post on the China general info board about Thai Women? Would love to hear what you guys say about this -
(with apologies to Jackson for cut/pasting and repating my posting - sorry Sir!! Please give me this allowance once!)

////
English - who cares?!
Oooops - sorry ALL - howzabout getting to the subject closest and dearest to our hearts - MONGERING.
Actually I prefer that most Chinese do NOT speak English - especially the women folk! compare that with Thailand where lots of the "ladies" does speak a smattering of English... and then acts, dress and gets "westernized" attitudes. Not gentle any more, not natural and shaved-bush, loud, dirty, demanding, know-it-all! Hell give me our wonderful Xiao-jie anytime! Gentle, look of wonderment about soooo many things, makes one feel as if still in charge (OK - so what if all an act but at least our Xiao -jie's know how to act properly!), cute/clean clothed, accept the scheme of things as is and do not (not know how to) argue about much! WONDERFUL and long may they not be polluted by too many western influences (which comes easier thru foreign language abilities!)
"Contented" SE Asia Joe

Old Thai Hand
07-07-06, 05:51
Hey Guys - you want to respond to my post on the China general info board about Thai Women? Would love to hear what you guys say about this -
(with apologies to Jackson for cut/pasting and repating my posting - sorry Sir!! Please give me this allowance once!)

////
English - who cares?!
Oooops - sorry ALL - howzabout getting to the subject closest and dearest to our hearts - MONGERING.
Actually I prefer that most Chinese do NOT speak English - especially the women folk! compare that with Thailand where lots of the "ladies" does speak a smattering of English... and then acts, dress and gets "westernized" attitudes. Not gentle any more, not natural and shaved-bush, loud, dirty, demanding, know-it-all! Hell give me our wonderful Xiao-jie anytime! Gentle, look of wonderment about soooo many things, makes one feel as if still in charge (OK - so what if all an act but at least our Xiao -jie's know how to act properly!), cute/clean clothed, accept the scheme of things as is and do not (not know how to) argue about much! WONDERFUL and long may they not be polluted by too many western influences (which comes easier thru foreign language abilities!)
"Contented" SE Asia Joe

maybe true of some Thai P4P girls, but not TGs in general. I would say that ordinary TGs are still very Asian, naiive and very charming in a genuine way.

Phantomtiger2
07-08-06, 22:18
Hey Guys - you want to respond to my post on the China general info board about Thai Women? Would love to hear what you guys say about this -
" SE Asia Joe


My only experience with Thai women in general is very one side, so take it very lightly as it will not mean the average Thai gal will be this way.
1) I am sure this will describe most of us mongers in LOS and the impressions of the Thai women we all have. We are there on a short duration--mostly vacations (as in my case) so we will most likely only meet bar gals, go-go gals and MP gals. The likelyhood of most of us meeting or dating native gals outside of P4P is small (but not impossible) as most of us do not speak the native language.
2)Most Thai gals we meet will always fall under our suspicion as we are indeed paying for their time. In a way, we are their bosses for a short time and just how many of us really like our boss? Sure, we all smile at our boss but do we really like them? So the question of whether gals really like us (if not for our money) are always questionable. I remember a few that could win an Oscar for their "acting".
3)Although we hear Thai women should listen and respect the men (based on their society training), I often find the P4P gals to have a mind of their own. Respect for me?-sometimes but not always. Most often,They just smile when paid and leave without a second look back.
4)P4P gals are generally very open and not shy (aggresive is more the norm)--they cant be shy simply b/c they wont find any business. But I do hear that the avg Thai gal should be more timid and shy. I have yet to meet one as I only deal with the P4P community.

So unless you live or travel to LOS often and mingle with local gals and truly speak the language, it will be difficult to find out what they are really like. I find that the gals that do know some english also act a little different so may not be a good example of a typical Thai gal.---IMO

PT

Rebad
07-09-06, 00:14
I'm sure that most of you will say cash.

However,

Is there anything a Thai girl might want from the States that cant be found in and arround BKK?

Cwaynec
07-09-06, 00:32
I'm sure that most of you will say cash.

However,

Is there anything a Thai girl might want from the States that cant be found in and arround BKK?Mine always appreciates intricate jewelry. Rings and necklaces; don't have to be too expensive but the quality of the fittings is always appreciated and remarked upon.

If you can get an unlocked one, cell phone prices (without committment) are almost always cheaper.

Brand name clothing from the states is always appreciated. They have the name brands but it is typically bootleg or made in China, etc.

Vitamins, cosmetics, and chocolates always appreciated. Funny story; one year she met a couple of friends of mine with their wives and she showed them the sites of Bangkok for a few days. That Christmas, they asked that I bring back presents for her. When we opened the presents, all four of them had gotten her nice baskets of fragrant soaps, bath oils, and other similar type products from Bed, Bath, and Beyond. This went along with my thinking as well as I had gotten her an assortment of products from there also. I had to spend the next hour convincing her that Americans don't think Thai women smell!

Old Thai Hand
07-09-06, 02:37
OTH,

Just that in my few years of going to BKK I have had many friends (BG) explain to me that Thai ladies would give up there youth to land an "Old Farang" who would not live long as there allready well into there 60's! And be well taken care of for the rest of their young lives! You suggested they like the prestige of status. I think not! Just the support for them and there families We can provide.

Also, would you agree that most become addicted to the lifestyle very quickly. Much the way we do when visiting LOS.

Rikusa

I think you're thinking only about BGs here, judging from your comments, especially about support for them and their families. I'm not really talking about that at all. If you read my post I say in the beginning to forget the girls in the P4P scene as they don't quite fit into this scenario because they are subverted by money right away.

Most of the Farang I know are with TGs who aren't after money, or even status. The girls probably give more status to the Farang, than the other way around as they often come from good families. They don't need a farang to give them anything. As a visitor to Thailand, you probably don't really see this in the places you are visiting. You see old Farang with BGs and form your opinions from that. In the case of those men and those girls, you're correct.
But, there's a whole other world here that most Farang who don't live here never see. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not going to repeat again about my own situation. I've talked about that quit enough. But, I know several Farang my age and older with younger TGs where the girl comes from a family that doesn't need money or support and where the girl simply likes older men. It's a long-standing part of the culture that has simply migrated over to the increasing number of Farang who are living and working here, helped considerably by the chat and dating sites on the Internet.

One other thing that I forgot to mention in my original post which is a big factor in all of this is that Thais also view Farang in general as healthier, younger and younger-looking than their Thai counterparts. In the West our concept of middle-age and old age is much different than Thais. Thais think 45 is old age for a Thai and the way some of them act by this age, you can understand it. But, they understand that Farang are different and that at 45 we're still relatively young, healthy (or should be) and most-importantly young-thinking. I go to fitness and rarely see Thai men my age but the place is packed with Farang in the 40-65 age range. BTW, the place is also packed with 20-something TGs and they see all these older Farang guys working out and therefore form a different opinion of them than they would have of an older Thai man. My female trainer who is 24 told me the other day that having a Farang boyfriend of any age is a growing trend among TGs. She said all her friends were "crazy to have a Farang BF". I should hasten to add, though they don't want the type of guy who comes here to monger and any TGs I've talked to about it have pointedly remarked quite negatively about Farang like that.

I've heard lots of TGs say they like men like Bruce Willis, Pierce Brosnan and Harrison Ford, for example. Sure, these are all good-looking guys. But, they're also old, especially Harrison Ford who's in his mid-sixties. If you don't look like Jabba the Hut and keep yourself reasonably well presented, trust me, lots of TGs will be attracted to you.

Old Thai Hand
07-09-06, 02:46
My only experience with Thai women in general is very one side, so take it very lightly as it will not mean the average Thai gal will be this way.
1) I am sure this will describe most of us mongers in LOS and the impressions of the Thai women we all have. We are there on a short duration--mostly vacations (as in my case) so we will most likely only meet bar gals, go-go gals and MP gals. The likelyhood of most of us meeting or dating native gals outside of P4P is small (but not impossible) as most of us do not speak the native language.
2)Most Thai gals we meet will always fall under our suspicion as we are indeed paying for their time. In a way, we are their bosses for a short time and just how many of us really like our boss? Sure, we all smile at our boss but do we really like them? So the question of whether gals really like us (if not for our money) are always questionable. I remember a few that could win an Oscar for their "acting".
3)Although we hear Thai women should listen and respect the men (based on their society training), I often find the P4P gals to have a mind of their own. Respect for me?-sometimes but not always. Most often,They just smile when paid and leave without a second look back.
4)P4P gals are generally very open and not shy (aggresive is more the norm)--they cant be shy simply b/c they wont find any business. But I do hear that the avg Thai gal should be more timid and shy. I have yet to meet one as I only deal with the P4P community.

So unless you live or travel to LOS often and mingle with local gals and truly speak the language, it will be difficult to find out what they are really like. I find that the gals that do know some english also act a little different so may not be a good example of a typical Thai gal.---IMO

PT


I think this is a very good assessment of the reality of most Farang visitors and their misintepretation of what real TGs are like based merely on exposure to a perverted segment of the Thai female population, i.e. the P4P scene.
The difference between the girls that mongers meet and regular Thai women is like night and day. So, any opinions expressed about Thai women based solely on exposure to BGs and the like should be taken with a huge grain of salt as completely off the mark and having nothing to do with reality.

Since almost all experiences posted here have to do with mongering and the P4P scene, I think the name of this thread should be changed to: Thai Hookers - Opinions and Advice. Before someone flames me...yes it is true (obviously) that BGs etc. are Thai women. But, they are just not normal Thai women and operate very much outside the cultural norms.

Retired Army
07-09-06, 06:17
If you can get an unlocked one, cell phone prices (without committment) are almost always cheaper.



If it is locked you can get it unlocked at MBK.

Chocolates and name brand cosmetics are most appreciated.

Retired Army
07-09-06, 06:18
I'm sure that most of you will say cash.

However,

Is there anything a Thai girl might want from the States that cant be found in and arround BKK?

Just about anything you want you can get in BKK. If you are willing to pay for it.

M P Lurker
07-12-06, 14:31
I'm sure that most of you will say cash.

Is there anything a Thai girl might want from the States that cant be found in and arround BKK?Some girls, but not all, have greatly appreciated a vibrator, even if initially protesting that they couldn't possibly! Must be a little bit modern of course.

I like to give out tiny little ones that fit in a purse.

My main girlfriend has extremely excessive orgasms with this little friend while I'm away OS and also even while I am fucking her.

Soft toys are also O.K. if really cute, then there's MP3 players, new mobiles, etc. and of course the dreaded GOLD. If you buy a girl gold chains, you can expect it to be pawned or sold some time, so not recommended.

M P Lurker
07-12-06, 14:34
Is there anything a Thai girl might want from the States that cant be found in and arround BKK?Sorry I forgot the topic in my previous reply.

Vibrartors were probably only thing not much in edvidence in BKK that I mentioned.

The Traveler
07-13-06, 19:22
If you buy a girl gold chains, you can expect it to be pawned or sold some time, so not recommended.
Just like MP3 players, mobile phones and everything else that is accepted by pawn shops. :)

Nutso
07-14-06, 03:59
Along these lines, what do you guys recommend as a gift for a TGF that she will be able to pawn/sell easily? I know pure gold (i.e. high K) is the easiest, but I am looking for something a little different. Does a stone make it more difficult to pawn? Any other suggestions? I'm figuring on around the US$500 range (long story).
Just like MP3 players, mobile phones and everything else that is accepted by pawn shops. :)

M P Lurker
07-14-06, 15:02
thought i might extend a previous discussion with some advice to mongers on doing well and being popular with the girls and see what other opinions are around. i will stay away from the 'finding true love' thing here as that one has already been discussed a lot.

not necessarily in correct priority.

1. generous. stingy bastards are not held in great esteem even if they are rich. of course some guys really enjoy ripping off a girl by trying to get as much service as possible for as little as possible. of course the young hunks with charm who look as good as brad pitt can get it all for free but this doesn't apply to most mongers a girl is able to have much more fun when her immediate financial pressures are alleviated. however shy girls will will go with me for sex without discussing money at all. perhaps they are smart enough to know they may get tipped more generously by not setting an asking price or perhaps they are leaving it to fate.

2. show some respect. don't treat them like dogs. they are human beings and some have little alternative to scrape together some money to support themselves and families.

3. cleanliness. asians are very sensitive to body odour and some guys stink to the extent that a girl might feint. for some guys, i believe they still have strong odour despite washing underarms carefully so i don't know what the cure is other than to comment that odour is probably caused by bacteria inside the sweat glands, perhaps treatable. mouth odour is another problem so flossing is recommended followed by brushing everywhere with a soft brush, including all teeth surfaces, gums, palate, inside of cheeks and most importantly the tongue as far back as you can go (despite gagging), as tongue is a source of bad odours. brushing the tongue with toothpaste just moves bacteria around, so a plastic tongue scraper is a good idea. an upside down spoon can be used as a tongue scraper. place as far back as possible and glently scrape to the front dragging the icky matter off. rinse scraper after each pass. experts also recommend using a mouth wash without alcohol in it. there are web sites re fresh breath. keep nails well trimmed, smooth and clean. always shower directly before and after sex, paying special attention to armpits, crotch and arse to ensure free of stenches. lactacyid is a good local product to use to wash the crotch. it is very mildly acidic which protects against yeast and fungal infections (like thrush) otherwise easy to catch in humid climates. normal soap is not good in the crotch area. fungals love the alkalinity of soap. clean underwear regularly of course. this may mean more than daily if you have become sweaty.

4. dress neatly. hippy clothes or rag bags don't earn too many points.

5, if girls have a good time then you will also, most likely. so move slowly so they can escape from anything that they particularly don't like. girls have a very wide range of personalities, so choose the right one for you, be it the very wayward or the very shy. actually many different types can be great fun. thatwhat variety is about.

6. most girls really prefer talking about themselves. so don't talk too much about yourself and show an interest in them to some extent. don't try to be james bond unless you think you are a very good actor. fakes are a turn off.

look forward to some other helpful views.

editor's note: i certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the reports of distinction thread.

FKKguide
07-14-06, 15:21
I've heard lots of TGs say they like men like Bruce Willis, Pierce Brosnan and Harrison Ford, for example. Sure, these are all good-looking guys. But, they're also old, especially Harrison Ford who's in his mid-sixties. If you don't look like Jabba the Hut and keep yourself reasonably well presented, trust me, lots of TGs will be attracted to you.Your post is right on. I've been married to middle class TG half my age (my former sudent) for 10 yrs, and am now divorced and on the prowl again. In ferang land a get no love, but in LOS I have dated nobody over 35: doctors, corporate managers, TV stars, airline hostesses, teachers and 17 yr young school girls from good families. My GFs often tell me I look like Sean Connery, who's 78 and still considered the sexiest man alive by vote from the female public.

PM me for info on gide and consulting services in TH and Germany.

FKKguide
07-14-06, 15:28
Sorry I forgot the topic in my previous reply.

Vibrartors were probably only thing not much in edvidence in BKK that I mentioned.Right-on! They love'em! I gave my wife a huge massage wand from the drug store and she loved it. Made for great, lazy multi-orgasmic intercourse too.

When she divorced me, I repossesed it. She almost cried for "her machine". She obviously loved it and my dog more than me.

So be careful!

PM me for info on gide and consulting services in TH and Germany.

Retired Army
07-14-06, 16:05
Along these lines, what do you guys recommend as a gift for a TGF that she will be able to pawn/sell easily? I know pure gold (i.e. high K) is the easiest, but I am looking for something a little different. Does a stone make it more difficult to pawn? Any other suggestions? I'm figuring on around the US$500 range (long story).

Why do you want to give her something she can pawn? Cut out the middleman and give her cash. She will appreciate it more.

The Traveler
07-14-06, 18:04
Along these lines, what do you guys recommend as a gift for a TGF that she will be able to pawn/sell easily? I know pure gold (i.e. high K) is the easiest, but I am looking for something a little different. Does a stone make it more difficult to pawn? Any other suggestions? I'm figuring on around the US$500 range (long story).
Nutso,

I understand why you want to give her something different, but if you are worried that she might sell it, follow RA's advice. Everything can and will be sold if in need. The only difference might be that she got far less at the pawn shop than you had to pay for and than it is worth. So you should ask yourself who you want to get that little difference, the pawn shop owner or the girl ?

Cash is best, but gold looks better (and is as good as cash).

Retired Army
07-14-06, 19:03
Nutso,


Cash is best, but gold looks better (and is as good as cash).

Good advice.

M P Lurker
07-15-06, 01:39
Right-on! They love'em! I gave my wife a huge massage wand from the drug store and she loved it. Made for great, lazy multi-orgasmic intercourse too.

When she divorced me, I repossesed it. She almost cried for "her machine". She obviously loved it and my dog more than me.

So be careful!

PM me for info on gide and consulting services in TH and Germany.FKKGuide,

As a secretive monger who is away from GF a lot, I take pity on her and let her enjoy herself with a vibrator. Actually she has 3 different ones now depending on mood wanting strong vibes or soft vibes. She actaully has little trouble orgasming anyway, but vibes send her crazy. Her only problem is explaining the gadgets to her 6 year old daughter.

I have to put up with a lot of wanking while away.

Do play up abroad somewhat, e.g. "The Palace" in Frankfurt where I actually change to European girls, or black caribean girls, basically stunning and fun girls from almost anywhere. Least favourite girls are from UK, USA, Australia (too much like home).

Nutso
07-15-06, 13:51
Thanks Traveler. You can probably appreciate that there is a long story and a long history. But when I have given her cash, it has triggered an "I'm not in this for the money" conversation. I thought I would try something different. I fully expect (actually hope) that anything I give her will be pawned. In fact, I'm more worried that if I give her something too personal, she'll hold on to it as a keep-sake and not pawn it. She needs the cash. So, I'm looking for what I would consider a happy middle ground. Part of me still balks at giving pure gold. To me, it might as well be cash. I'm not sure how she would feel about it. So, I know gold is the next best thing, but I'm wondering what the market is like for jewelry that is a bit harder to melt down.

p.s. just to avoid some doubts, this is not a question of a newbie farang falling for a bar girl and her sob story about a dead water buffalo.


Nutso,

I understand why you want to give her something different, but if you are worried that she might sell it, follow RA's advice. Everything can and will be sold if in need. The only difference might be that she got far less at the pawn shop than you had to pay for and than it is worth. So you should ask yourself who you want to get that little difference, the pawn shop owner or the girl ?

Cash is best, but gold looks better (and is as good as cash).

The Traveler
07-15-06, 20:12
Nutso,

jewelry made of Farang gold or with gems is as easy to pawn/sell as jewelry made of Thai gold, but she will get far less than you had to pay for.

Why not buy her a bit gold and put some money in her bank account ? Tell her it`s for the room rent or anything similar. This way you won't make her feel like paying for sex, but rather support her daily life.

Retired Army
07-16-06, 07:22
I fully expect (actually hope) that anything I give her will be pawned. In fact, I'm more worried that if I give her something too personal, she'll hold on to it as a keep-sake and not pawn it. She needs the cash. So, I'm looking for what I would consider a happy middle ground. Part of me still balks at giving pure gold. To me, it might as well be cash. I'm not sure how she would feel about it. So, I know gold is the next best thing, but I'm wondering what the market is like for jewelry that is a bit harder to melt down.


Then get her a plain gold baht bracelet. That way she can keep and wear it or sell it for about what you paid for it. You won't want to get her gold baht bars.

PosterLion
07-16-06, 10:48
GOLD: TT and RA have got this one dead on. Cash is probably best but Gold is definitely number two on the list. The most important thing to consider when giving a gift is your own intentions. Are you giving the gift out of a true sense of generosity or is it a subtle form of payment for past and/or future service contracts?

I think this is an extremely important issue to consider because of the fact that "what goes around comes around", and personal intentions are the reserve currency in the Karmic world. Wise is the one who carries a strong currency in the world of Karma.

Now why is it that currency and/or gold is the preferred choice of the TG? I believe it stems from the Thais' sense of responsibility, which is deeply ingrained in their psyche by the operant conditioning of their culture.

In essence, the most highly regarded gift a man can give to a Thai woman is a gift that clearly indicates his desire to be responsible for her. And better is the gift that demonstrates that he is indeed capable of the responsibility.

The pundits may well laugh at such a statement, but the day will come when their laughter returns as a heavy weight on their shoulder and that will be the first day they understand what has been said.



My current girlfriend is a good example. I recently made a few posts (in a somewhat boastful manner) which demonstrated that my average cost for sex with her was about seven or eight hundred Baht. Well friends, that has all but been thrown out the window. Two days ago I gave her twelve thousand Baht in order for her to retrieve 1.5 Baht of gold from the pawn shop before the "contract for pawn" expired.

One reason I settled her pawn contract is because 1.5 baht of gold is currently worth roughly eighteen thousand baht, but the primary reason I gave her that money is because I wanted her to know that I wanted to be semi-responsible for her. I have not made any conclusions that my current girlfriend is "the one", but I have concluded that she is an important part of my present life and I can live with that, believe me.

Since I've met her my luck has taken a huge turn for the good and I consider her presence in my life as one of the main reasons for that. My work (which is stock market speculation) has been quite good during the course of the past six weeks. In fact, I've managed to rack up one million Baht of capital gains shorting the Nasdaq 100. :)

Okay . . . That's my two Baht on gifts.

poster . . .

Esbobes
07-16-06, 14:26
GOLD: TT and RA have got this one dead on. Cash is probably best but Gold is definitely number two on the list. The most important thing to consider when giving a gift is your own intentions. Are you giving the gift out of a true sense of generosity or is it a subtle form of payment for past and/or future service contracts?

I think this is an extremely important issue to consider because of the fact that "what goes around comes around", and personal intentions are the reserve currency in the Karmic world. Wise is the one who carries a strong currency in the world of Karma.

Now why is it that currency and/or gold is the preferred choice of the TG? I believe it stems from the Thais' sense of responsibility, which is deeply ingrained in their psyche by the operant conditioning of their culture.

In essence, the most highly regarded gift a man can give to a Thai woman is a gift that clearly indicates his desire to be responsible for her. And better is the gift that demonstrates that he is indeed capable of the responsibility.

The pundits may well laugh at such a statement, but the day will come when their laughter returns as a heavy weight on their shoulder and that will be the first day they understand what has been said.

My current girlfriend is a good example. I recently made a few posts (in a somewhat boastful manner) which demonstrated that my average cost for sex with her was about seven or eight hundred Baht. Well friends, that has all but been thrown out the window. Two days ago I gave her twelve thousand Baht in order for her to retrieve 1.5 Baht of gold from the pawn shop before the "contract for pawn" expired.

One reason I settled her pawn contract is because 1.5 baht of gold is currently worth roughly eighteen thousand baht, but the primary reason I gave her that money is because I wanted her to know that I wanted to be semi-responsible for her. I have not made any conclusions that my current girlfriend is "the one", but I have concluded that she is an important part of my present life and I can live with that, believe me.

Since I've met her my luck has taken a huge turn for the good and I consider her presence in my life as one of the main reasons for that. My work (which is stock market speculation) has been quite good during the course of the past six weeks. In fact, I've managed to rack up one million Baht of capital gains shorting the Nasdaq 100. :)

Okay . . . That's my two Baht on gifts.

poster . . .I think she took you they always want more.

I think now she is planning to get even more from you.

I hope I am wrong.

Watch for a new story soon she will need more.

Best of luck.

JuiceSpike
07-16-06, 16:15
Poster,

" Are you giving the gift out of a true sense of generosity or is it a subtle form of payment for past and/or future service contracts?"

Well, yeah, I think the girl would assume an advance payment for services or a nice tip...

What happened to either inexpensive or expensive gifts? I have given them before and they were much appreciated. Guys, I think not all women are for rent or for sell in Thailand at all times. If you are with a P/P girl then sure cash is what they expect but is that a gift? They expect it because that's how they make their money... So, if you give her above and beyond the cash "fee" she already expects then it would be a gift or a nice tip to her.

Jing?

juices

Nutso
07-17-06, 02:16
Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. I decided to go with the advice of Traveler/RA and got a simple gold bracelot with a small amount of cash. And, to answer Posterlion's question, the issue is perhaps one of karma. Events that she doesn't care much about but which I can't let go (thank my damned Judeo-Christian upbringing for that one).

PosterLion
07-19-06, 14:19
I think she took you they always want more.

Everybody wants more, at least that's my experience. In regard to your opinion that I was "taken", I offered to pay her pawn contract. She never once asked me to pay it for her. I must admit the gold she is now wearing looks quite nice on her.

Are you speaking from experience? I noticed you have racked up a grand total of four posts. Please feel free to expound on your position with a real life example or two.


I think now she is planning to get even more from you.

Anything is possible. I'll grant you that.


I hope I am wrong.

You are wrong. I'm certain of it.


Watch for a new story soon she will need more.

An old girlfriend of hers flew in from Taiwan today to get a checkup at the hospital and was diagnosed with cancer in the uterus. So today is a sad day for the both of us, but I doubt this will end up being one of those "new" stories that you mentioned. Don't worry, I'll keep the ISG board posted. I've been doing that for three years and three girlfriends now.


Best of luck.

Thank you sir. :)

poster . . .

The Traveler
07-19-06, 22:21
... In regard to your opinion that I was "taken", I offered to pay her pawn contract. She never once asked me to pay it for her ....

Poster,

only the best can make you believe that it was your own idea :)


Just kidding but you know it's true.

PosterLion
07-19-06, 23:50
Poster,

only the best can make you believe that it was your own idea :)


Just kidding but you know it's true.

You would be 100% correct. I think I've been pretty lucky in that I have not become attached to a true-to-life-gold-digger since I've been in Thailand. If this girl turns out to be the best and I find I've been taken by her I will report it to this board for the benefit of all concerned jing jing. :)

And even if she is a gold digger, I did her the favour because I really think she changed my luck on the electronic trading floor and because, well . . . I also really like her! Hmmm . . . Now this has me wondering, did I give her the gift out of true generosity or was it a subtle form of present or future payment. I have to admit, it's hardly ever easy to know your true motives sometimes! Anyway, I won't be worried about the money, but I will be quite sad if she dissapoints me in the normally anticipated way. :(

poster . . .

1Ball
07-20-06, 00:19
Poster, since we were just talking about Columbian flake, are you still up, or already up?
well, off for my morning walk on the beach.....
life is good.

Siam150
07-20-06, 00:55
My friend has been living with, not married to, a mid forties Thai woman and bought a house in her name. They have part of her family living with them. She has a loan for part of the house and the equity he has in the home is about six million baht. I have told him that if he leaves and discontinues support he will lose all the equity in the property. He want to discuss the situation with a lawyer sinice he could not put the house in his name under Thai law there may be some way he can recover his equity by requiring her to sell the house or he is willing to split the equity with her. If anyone knows a good honest attorney please email me back.

Thanks

PosterLion
07-20-06, 07:01
My friend has been living with, not married to, a mid forties Thai woman and bought a house in her name. They have part of her family living with them. She has a loan for part of the house and the equity he has in the home is about six million baht. I have told him that if he leaves and discontinues support he will lose all the equity in the property. He want to discuss the situation with a lawyer sinice he could not put the house in his name under Thai law there may be some way he can recover his equity by requiring her to sell the house or he is willing to split the equity with her. If anyone knows a good honest attorney please email me back.

Thanks

Sounds like your friend should have taken the time to RTFF, but now it sounds like it's too late.

Sorry Sir, but I can't help in this area because I don't do any business in Thailand, but there are a few guys on this board that might be able to help your friend.

I think the best thing you can do for your friend is give him the ISG web addy and let him ask the questions, as he probably has better details of his situation.

On the other hand, it sounds like he is lacking quite a few details where it counts the most. heh heh. Opps! Sorry. :)

PosterLion
07-20-06, 07:07
Poster, since we were just talking about Columbian flake, are you still up, or already up?
well, off for my morning walk on the beach.....
life is good.

I was still awake. I think I may have the crappiest working hours in Thailand because I work on New York time: 9:30am - 4:00pm (which is 8:30pm - 3:00am in BKK).

Wait! The bargirls work the same shift as I do! Hmmm . . .

Ok . . .

At least my job can be a bit more lucrative. And then again, sometimes it's not! lol :)

poster . . .

1Ball
07-20-06, 10:50
Siam, I don't want to make light of the situation, but your friend will not lose any equity in the house, SINCE HE HAS NO EQUITY. He owns nothing, never has, never will. I don't know much about Thai law, but I do know that since his name is not on the deed, and by rights, CANNOT be on the deed, he has no right to anything.
That money is gone. If he is thinking about terminating the relationship, he should do it now, as every satang he puts into the house is only improving her situation. when he plonked down a bunch of green as a DP, what he was doing was GIVING HER A PILE OF MONEY!
Sure he can ask her to sell the house, and even if she does, the cash from the equity will be deposited in an account of her choice, and she has no legal obligation to him. Moral obligation? Well, that's another story.
As Poster said, this guy should have been RTFF years ago, when he decided to do this. He could have bought the property in a neutral party's name, and could now go and sell it, and reap the profits. (Provided this neutral party is honest! )
Good luck to him, but my thought is.... kiss that cash sayonara!

Esbobes
07-20-06, 11:34
Everybody wants more, at least that's my experience. In regard to your opinion that I was "taken", I offered to pay her pawn contract. She never once asked me to pay it for her. I must admit the gold she is now wearing looks quite nice on her.

Are you speaking from experience? I noticed you have racked up a grand total of four posts. Please feel free to expound on your position with a real life example or two.

Anything is possible. I'll grant you that.

You are wrong. I'm certain of it.

An old girlfriend of hers flew in from Taiwan today to get a checkup at the hospital and was diagnosed with cancer in the uterus. So today is a sad day for the both of us, but I doubt this will end up being one of those "new" stories that you mentioned. Don't worry, I'll keep the ISG board posted. I've been doing that for three years and three girlfriends now.

Thank you sir. :)

Poster . . .I am sorry about her girlfriend.

Have ever I need heard of a person in Thailand counting posts on ISG.

One such be counting pussy not posts by Esbobes.

JuiceSpike
07-20-06, 14:41
Siam 150,

If the separation of your friend with the woman is not friendly follow these steps to deal with the loss of equity:

1. Have your friend take all his valuables out of the house.
2. Have him take the whole family for a picnic out of town.
3. Have your friend hire a Thai guy for 2,500 BT to burn the house. (before burning the house he makes sure all animals are out).
4. Once the picnic ends have your friend and the family return to the burned house and gasp acting in shock (some acting required).
5. Have your friend the same day of the picninc/house burning catch a plane back to farang land.
6. Upon his return to farang land, take your friend out to dinner and drinks. Hug him.

If the separation is friendly, follow the these steps to deal with the loss of equity:

1. Have your friend talk to the woman to see if she would sell the house and split (after the mortage is paid) the proceeds.
2. If she declines to sell the house (more likely) have your friend remove all his valuables from the house.
3. Have your friend give the woman a big hug and tell her good luck. Also, have him tell her he loves her but it is not working out so he must go.
4. Follow steps 3 to 6 from the first set of intructions.

If neither of the above are appealing, here is another idea:

1. Have your friend find a good Thai lawyer and make the following deal with him: If the lawyer can find a way to sell the house he would get 1/2 million baht as a fee after your friend recovers the equity money in cash. No advance payments for the lawyer. This sounds like a lot but is better than recovering zero.

juices

Rikusa
07-21-06, 00:43
Siam 150,

If the separation of your friend with the woman is not friendly follow these steps to deal with the loss of equity:

1. Have your friend take all his valuables out of the house.

2. Have him take the whole family for a picnic out of town.

3. Have your friend hire a Thai guy for 2,500 BT to burn the house. (before burning the house he makes sure all animals are out).

4. Once the picnic ends have your friend and the family return to the burned house and gasp acting in shock (some acting required).

5. Have your friend the same day of the picninc/house burning catch a plane back to farang land.

6. Upon his return to farang land, take your friend out to dinner and drinks. Hug him.

If the separation is friendly, follow the these steps to deal with the loss of equity:

1. Have your friend talk to the woman to see if she would sell the house and split (after the mortage is paid) the proceeds.

2. If she declines to sell the house (more likely) have your friend remove all his valuables from the house.

3. Have your friend give the woman a big hug and tell her good luck. Also, have him tell her he loves her but it is not working out so he must go.

4. Follow steps 3 to 6 from the first set of intructions.

If neither of the above are appealing, here is another idea:

1. Have your friend find a good Thai lawyer and make the following deal with him: If the lawyer can find a way to sell the house he would get 1/2 million baht as a fee after your friend recovers the equity money in cash. No advance payments for the lawyer. This sounds like a lot but is better than recovering zero.

juicesOr like someone did up country not long ago.

Convince her you need to demolish the house and build a new one.

Then once its been demolished. Leave THAILAND

Perfect solution + No Lawyers

Nutso
07-21-06, 07:00
Siam150,

I am assuming the relationship is not amicable or is about to turn sour. As such, the advice you have gotten here so far is spot-on. Your friend may be best just to cut his losses. That, however, is not always very emotiionally satisfying. In the past, here is the advice I have given people in similar situations:

1. Talk to a lawyer. There are claims he can make against his girlfriend, if he so chooses. Thai law does not generally permit foreigners to own real property, and as such, he is not going to be able to claim the kind of profit he would realize if he were to sell the house. But, he can consider claiming that any money he gave his girlfriend that went into the house was a loan, was obtained from him fraudulently, etc. A Thai lawyer will be able to give him his options in this regard.

2. Threaten and/or Actually Sue Her. If the girlfriend is not willing to arrange for him to get back his money, he can sue her. He does not necessarily have to go through the entire process, but getting sued is not a pleasant experience. In fact, the Thai legal system is flawed enough that even with the best of cases the outcome is uncertain. He shouldn't plan on resolving the problem through a court decision, but in Thai culture, going to court is often seen as a sign of failure. As such, it can have a fairly strong psychological effect. It may bring her to the negotiating table. And, if they are able to come to a compromise, they can enter into a settlement/payment agreement which will establish that there is a debt, so that if she later doesn't pay him, he can go after her assets.

3. Collecting. Abviously the above only works if there is a way to collect. In Thailand, that can be a particularly big problem. She can always transfer her assets to a family member to try and prevent your friend from collecting. He should consider his chances of ever seeing the money before heading down this path.

3. Use a Local Lawyer. Here is an article about finding lawyers in Thailand. http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/selectthaiattorney.html. There are a few good international law firms in Thailand, but they tend to be weak in divorce law and are more expensive than the local firms. In a situation like this, your friend should perhaps sacrifice a bit in terms of the language ability that a foreign firm offers in return for a more cost effective process. After all, there is nothing worse than throwing good money after bad when it comes to Thai women (this from the guy that just sought advice on giving gold to his ex TGF).

Meaty
07-21-06, 09:59
Siam150,
Tell your friend to walk away, he isn't going to get anything out of this, and turning nasty coul dmean things get nastier for him...I'm sure he's not the only one who could get serious characters involved.
Chalk it up to experience, subscribe to ISG, hit Nana and move on.

JuiceSpike
07-21-06, 15:11
Nutso,

I think your advice is not good... I also think (even without knowing the specifics of this guy's situation) that suing the girlfriend is a mute point as it will go no further than filling the motion and the lawyer will charge him lots of money for preparing the motion and other bullshit lawyers are good at it. I don't think the gf will be itimidated by getting sued because it is a bogus claim against her. It is also legally a laughable approach that means nothing to be taken seriously by a Thai court. This would not be the first time a farang made the purchase of a house then later regret it. Thailand is very aware of this. Everybody. Not a secret. Not a surprise.

I don't think this guy has any recourse other than just walk away because he already lost his money. He should maybe look at the whole thing as a chapter in his life and move on. He should also consider buying the house for her as a GIFT and not as an investment because obviously the property is not under his name.

Meaty's advice makes the most sense except for the trip to Nana unless this guy understands the meaning of going short time... :D

juices (hi, Silky...)

1Ball
07-21-06, 16:10
Anyhow..anyway do NOT do stupid things like destroy or burn !
Good luck !
Yeah, but aaaaaahhhhh the satisfaction!

Retired Army
07-21-06, 18:30
Your friend is SCREWED!

The Traveler
07-21-06, 20:46
Siam150,

your friend should have thought about such an outcome BEFORE he made the decision to buy some land and a house. Having her family living with them should have been a first big warning sign.

Correct, due to Thai Law he can not own any land in his name, but he could have secured his investments in other ways, like

owning land and house via a Limited company. This can be easily done and will only cost about 50.000 baht incl. all fees.

seperating the house from the land and owning it in his name

having some debt of his GF registered in the deed in his favour

making a money lending contract with his GF. In case of separation she got to pay back the debt.


The first solution is the most secure and common standard in LOS. Maybe your friend knew about it and just wanted to save some money, but it's never a good idea to be cheap in the wrong moment. Nevertheless, it's too late.

As far as I can see there is no legal way to get back any of his investments. Hiring a lawyer won't help much as there is no legal ground for sueing his spouse and he would have to prove that it was a fraud, which is literally impossible. Even if he could prove that he made the payments - can he ? - the girl could still claim that it was a present. Any judge would ask him why he had not made a written contract/agreement if it wasn't one and he would also point out that they were living together for an extended period of time.

In case he married that girl traditionally just a short while ago, he could try to get back the dowry. In some very rare cases - like collecting the dowry and waving him goodbye almost immediately - the dowry must be returned. But since they were living together for some time that doesn't seem to be an option.

If there are no hard feelings for each other and depending on the girl he could try to obtain some sort of agreement, but since she and her family are living in the house I doubt that they will sell it. The loan might be in his favour, if she can't pay it back she might be willing to find a solution with him but he has to act very carefully and should avoid any emotions as people who seperate often do crazy things that don't make any sense and cause even more trouble, just to hurt each other. Just look at JuiceSpike's comment regarding burning the house.

It's like Meaty said, he can't do more than cutting his losses.

JuiceSpike
07-21-06, 21:13
TT,

If a farang wants to own land via an Limited Company that company would have to be 51% Thai ownership which for all practicall purposes the farang would not really "own" the land as you describe it in your post below. There are however other more sophisticated possible business entities with various sides agreements where special arrangements could be made as long as Thai law is not compromised too much which in the case of owning land it would take some really good lawyering for both Thai and Farang to come to an agreement that works. By the way, the woman in quesion was just his girlfriend and not a spouse so any look at his situation with a legal approach is not only a joke but a mute point.

Also, you seem to have no sense of humor and mybe you are not alone. My post about burning the house was meant to be sarcastic but you did not get it... Oh, well...:)

juices

The Traveler
07-21-06, 22:06
Juice,

it's correct that only 49% of a Limited can be owned by farangs, but this is absolutely no problem.

Usually your Thai partners - which can be anybody like the secretary of your lawyer etc. - have to sign a contract of sale in advance. If any problem with any of your partners should occur, you simply have to put a date on that contract and find another Thai to take your partner's place. And so on ...

Furthermore you will be the managing director and the only person who is allowed to legally sign any documents. This way you are always in control of the Limited and therefore also in control of the land and the house. If you wish to sell it, you only have to transfer your share of the company and another person takes your seat as managing director. This is also much cheaper (less taxes) than selling the property directly.

This is the common solution in LOS. If you know of "other more sophisticated possible business entities with various sides agreements where special arrangements could be made as long as Thai law is not compromised too much" I - and probably thousands of property owners in LOS - would like to hear about them. Please be more specific and tell us what you have in mind. But why make easy things complicated ?
BTW, Thai Law shouldn't be comprised at all !

Regarding marital status : We don't know if he had traditionally married her or not, therefore we don't know if she is his spouse by traditional means. But you are right, she isn't his legal spouse regarding to the law. Nevertheless, you are dead wrong if you believe that "any look at his situation with a legal approach is not only a joke but a mute point" just because she isn't his spouse. If they have any kind of written agreement - being his spouse or not - it would change the whole thing.

Burning the house : I did get it but we all know that people often act strange and do stupid things in situations like these. Therefore this comment was like putting oil in the fire and might point into the wrong direction. Even if it was fun for you, he might take you serious and pick up on that to take revenge putting himself in trouble.

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 01:05
TT,

Wow, it sounds like, the way you describe it, having Thai partners is a piece of cake. I think you are wrong on this one. If it was so easy to open a company under the terms you decribe it then that company might not even be considered a legit company and hence you have a not legally binding corporation which means you end up with nothing. Maybe forming a corporation in Thailand is different than in the US but here you cannot really have the majority of partners be silent partners as it contradicts the legal formation of the biz and how the biz is operated and run. Also, if it is so easy why thre are not more foreigners buying land in Thailand with your idea? Hmmm...

Law can always be compromised as you wich the problem is whether you will have any standing if you get in trouble. The "sophisticated" formation of business happens all the time and if you are not aware of such ways then do a little reading.

Regarding burning down the house (it reminds me of a very old tune...) if this guy is damn enough to follow my instructions then he really deserves nothing good coming his way.

juices

Nutso
07-22-06, 02:33
Juicespike,

I guess I should have mentioned that I started my career with one of those international law firms before moving upward and onward. It is the advice I have given to clients in the past and it worked, so I figured Siam150 could benefit from it as well. I haven't done much in terms of quality contribution on the mongering side here, so I thought I would throw in some free legal advice. As always, it's to be taken or left at the reader's discretion.

And, if I were in his shoes, I would give up. But I have never had a client that would take that advice. There is no sense of justice in walking away when we believe we are in the right, so I offered up what I think is the alternate course of action.

The courts won't give him his money back, unless he can put together a strong enough case that it is a loan, etc. But as I mentioned, the process itself often forces the parties into dialogue. In this case, the girlfriend is going to have to explain to her family, neighbors, etc, why she is being sued. Assuming the friend can come out looking relatively clean (he's not sleeping with her sister, didn't drive over her favorite cat, etc.), it will add a certain amount of pressure. And, it gives him the added advantage of having felt like he did something to fight the injustice. That alone is often worth the cost of suing, and in fact is usually one of the main motivators for doing so.



Nutso,

I think your advice is not good... I also think (even without knowing the specifics of this guy's situation) that suing the girlfriend is a mute point as it will go no further than filling the motion and the lawyer will charge him lots of money for preparing the motion and other bullshit lawyers are good at it. I don't think the gf will be itimidated by getting sued because it is a bogus claim against her. It is also legally a laughable approach that means nothing to be taken seriously by a Thai court. This would not be the first time a farang made the purchase of a house then later regret it. Thailand is very aware of this. Everybody. Not a secret. Not a surprise.

I don't think this guy has any recourse other than just walk away because he already lost his money. He should maybe look at the whole thing as a chapter in his life and move on. He should also consider buying the house for her as a GIFT and not as an investment because obviously the property is not under his name.

Meaty's advice makes the most sense except for the trip to Nana unless this guy understands the meaning of going short time... :D

juices (hi, Silky...)

PosterLion
07-22-06, 06:37
Maybe forming a corporation in Thailand is different than in the US but here you cannot really have the majority of partners be silent partners as it contradicts the legal formation of the biz and how the biz is operated and run. Also, if it is so easy why thre are not more foreigners buying land in Thailand with your idea? Hmmm...juices

Hey Juicy,

I think TT knows what he's talking about on this issue. My girlfriend (a smart cookie) told me she has helped some farangs purchase a house before. She told me this after I asked her if it were possible to buy a house in Thailand. Don't worry, I'm not planning to buy one and end up like the current sad-story these posts are about.

And Further, a corporation in America can be set up any number of ways. Different types of stock can be issued, some with voting rights and others without. Probably the most famous company in America (Google) is a case in point:

Under the current setup, owners of Class A Google shares, like the pension fund, get a single vote per share.

But Class B stock owners, a category which includes Google's top executives, get a total of 10 votes per share.

At Google, CEO Eric Schmidt and co-founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin get to cast 66.2 percent of all the votes, although they together own just 31.3 percent of the stock. That means that without the top three's consent, any proposal is defeated.

This in no way contradicts the legal formation of the business nor how the business is operated. When forming a corporation everything is documented in what is called "The Articles of Incorporation" and you can pretty much put any thing you please in them as long as they do not violate the law.

Stock with limited voting rights (as in Google's case) do not violate the law. It might seem unfair to a Class A shareholder, but that sharholder should have considered his 1/10 voting rights before he bought his shares. I am sure it was fully disclosed in the prospectus for the stock offering.

regards,
poster . . .

The Traveler
07-22-06, 07:32
TT,

Wow, it sounds like, the way you describe it, having Thai partners is a piece of cake. I think you are wrong on this one. If it was so easy to open a company under the terms you decribe it then that company might not even be considered a legit company and hence you have a not legally binding corporation which means you end up with nothing. Maybe forming a corporation in Thailand is different than in the US but here you cannot really have the majority of partners be silent partners as it contradicts the legal formation of the biz and how the biz is operated and run. Also, if it is so easy why thre are not more foreigners buying land in Thailand with your idea? Hmmm...

Juice,

that's exactly the point, you just think that I am wrong, you don't know it. But I know for sure that I am right, I already did it this way, I had to.
BTW, it's not just my idea, that's the common solution in LOS and thousands of foreigners have done it to buy some land and a house.
Just because you don't know about, doesn't mean that it did not happen. Maybe you should do a little reading.

You refer to US law, I don't know much about it so I spare any efforts to prove you wrong even though I believe that there are forms of companies you aren't aware of in which the majority of the partners can be silent partners. At least here in Germany such a company is possible and Thai Law adopted huge parts of German Law. Just like their national anthem, it was composed by a German. :) Did you know that ?

It sounds like you don't know much about Thai Law, you only come to LOS for mongering, not setting up some business or buying some property. Therefore it's useless to discuss such an issue with you. Go ask a lawyer if you don't believe me or just take a look at any website of real estate agents in LOS. It's often mentioned that the property is already registered in the name of a company and that only the company needs to be transferred.



Law can always be compromised as you wich the problem is whether you will have any standing if you get in trouble. The "sophisticated" formation of business happens all the time and if you are not aware of such ways then do a little reading.

Sure, law can always be comprised but it's not very advisible or smart to do so when setting up a company or doing any other sort of legal business. The part that compromises the law is invalid by definition and if a severability clause is missing it might render the whole thing invalid. Why making yourself vulnerable ? Better make it waterproof.

Why do you go around the heck and don't call the baby by it's name ?
What kind of "sophisticated formation of business" do you have in mind ?
What is the result of your "little reading" ? Please share your wisdom and enlighten us.
I doubt that you really know what you are talking about, you are too vage and dim. It sounds that you rather speculate and are talking about things you believe to be true but not knowing if they really are.

I on the other hand - and many people I know - have done what I am talking about. As you might remember, I owned different kinds of property and also owned and still do some business in LOS. Therefore I know from first hand experience that it is done this way.


Attached you will find a pic of a share of one of my first companies I used to buy a house.

The Traveler
07-22-06, 09:08
And Further, a corporation in America can be set up any number of ways. Different types of stock can be issued, some with voting rights and others without. Probably the most famous company in America (Google) is a case in point:

Poster,

correct.
I guess anybody in here had heard of VW - Volkswagen the car builder.
There are different sorts of stocks available for this company, the ordinary shares (Stammaktien in German) with a voting right and preference shares (Vorzugsaktien) without a voting right. The preference shares get a higher dividend to make up for the lack of the voting right.
We also have registered shares (Namensaktien), registered shares with restricted transferability (vinkulierte Namensaktien) and so on.
China is also a very good example, they have A and B shares ( I think even C shares), but also H shares and much more.

In short : The part of your share of a company has nothing to do with voting rights.

The principle of "freedom of contract" is also known by US jurisdiction and everybody is free to choose which way he wants to join a company if he setting up one with partners. Therefore I have severe doubts that Juice's statement that "you cannot really have the majority of partners be silent partners as it contradicts the legal formation of the biz and how the biz is operated and run" reflects the current legal situation in rhe US.

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 12:27
Poster,

What I meant by forming a bogus company as Traveler suggests is that if you form a company with your Thai lawyer's secretary is that in the end it might not be considered a "real" company which is maintaining regulatory compliance of the company. Thai law requires balance sheets to be filed yearly and a company address must be maintained. Technically, inactive companies (companies not earning income) are subject to de-listing. Therefore, an active company not a bogus might be better for purchasing property or buying land in Thailand. But, as Traveler suggests it in here with a quick set up is as bogus as thinking that the Brooklyn bridge is for sale and you can actually own it.

I have owned an S Corporation for the past 6 years and last year I bought out my partner's interests (30%) so I know about articles of incorporation, share distribution and operating a business. Yeah, class A shares sounds very good until you find out it just a name with no voting rights. But wouldn't you trust the class B share holders (with majority voting rights) at Google when the those 2 geeks have a proven record?

Nutso

Are you currently practicing civil or corporate law or both in Thailand?

The Traveler,

I will get back to you later and prove you wrong. BTW, Germany would not be there today if it was not for the generosity of the good old USA. So, chill out a little. Thanks for the national anthem, it is beautiful indeed. And what bogus businesses and properties you have in Thailand?

juices

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 12:43
TT, here some reading for you and maybe you will learn something....I'm going to the gym now so I expect comments (I'm sure with a lot of questions too) from you when I get back.

Foreign Ownership of Land in Thailand

As a general matter, Thai law prohibits foreigners from owning land in Thailand. The prohibition applies to foreign individuals and juristic entities (e.g., companies or partnerships). Additionally, it applies to Thai registered juristic entities, which are owned or controlled by foreigners. This law note describes generally the Thai law prohibiting land ownership by foreigners, as well as exceptions to and strategies for operating under the prohibition.

Prohibition on Foreign Ownership of Land

1. Thai Land Law:

Under Sec. 86 of the Thai Land Law, a foreigner may own land in Thailand only if permitted by treaty. In fact, Thailand does not have a treaty with any country permitting foreigners from that country to own land. Therefore, foreigners are effectively prohibited from owning land in Thailand. Under Sec. 97 of the Land Law, the definition of a foreigner includes Thai registered companies or partnerships in which more than 49% of the capital is owned by foreigners or of which more than half the shareholders or partners are foreigners.

As a practical matter, it is often difficult for a Thai company with foreigners having substantial minority ownership (e.g., 51% Thai, 49% foreign) to acquire land in Thailand. The policies of Land Offices vary throughout Thailand, but often they require that Thais own at least 60% or 70% of a company in order to register land ownership.

Under former Land Office policy, Thai nationals who married foreigners were prohibited from ownership of land in Thailand. This prohibition was based on principles of community property law and a general presumption that the Thai spouse was holding the land for the benefit of the foreigner. However, under current Land Office policy the Thai spouse can own land in Thailand, provided that the foreign spouse signs a letter declaring the property to be the separate property of the Thai spouse and waiving any interest in the property.

2. Condominium Act (No. 2) of 1990:

Sec. 19 of the Condominium Act effectively prohibits ownership of condominium units by a foreigner unless the foreigner qualifies for foreign ownership as described below.

3. Alien Business Law:

The Alien Business Law, which regulates foreign investment in Thailand, can have an indirect impact on the ability of foreigners to own land. For example, under the terms of the Alien Business Act of 1999, “land trading” is considered a Schedule One activity and is generally prohibited to foreigners.

Exceptions to the Prohibition

1. Board of Investment (BOI) incentives:

Sec. 27 of the Investment Promotion Act authorizes the Board of Investment (BOI) to grant a foreign owned company permission to own land for the purpose of conducting the promoted activity. The area of the land must be approved by the BOI, which will review the land and proposed construction plans to determine that the land's size is suitable for the promoted activity. The use of the land must be limited to the promoted activity, and if the promoted business is later dissolved the land must be sold within one year of the termination of that business. The BOI exception to the prohibition against foreigners owning land is primarily limited to the ownership of land and factory for a promoted manufacturing activity.

In addition to permitting foreign ownership of land for the purpose of conducting a promoted business, BOI privileges can authorize a foreign owned company to conduct business activities which would otherwise be prohibited under the Alien Business Law. Thus, the indirect impact of the Alien Business Law on foreign land ownership can be reduced under BOI privileges.

2. Condominium Act (No. 2) of 1990 (as amended April 27, 1999)

Sec. 19 of the amended Condominium Act authorizes qualified foreigners to own individual condominium units provided that the total area of foreign-owned units within the condominium project does not exceed 49 percent of the total area of all units within the project. In Bangkok and other municipalities to be designated in ministerial regulations, the 49% limitation does not apply. The following foreigners qualify for condominium unit ownership:

a. Individuals having permanent residence status in Thailand.
b. Individuals who have been permitted to enter Thailand under BOI privileges.
c. Juristic entities registered in Thailand but being classified as "foreign" under the Land Act.
d. Juristic entities, which have been granted investment privileges by the BOI.
e. Individuals or juristic entities, which have brought foreign currency into Thailand for the purpose of purchasing the condominium unit.

Strategies

Despite the broad scope of the prohibition on foreign ownership of land and condominiums in Thailand, and the narrow scope of the exceptions, a variety of tactics can be used to minimize the impact of the prohibitions. These include, for example:

a. Forming joint venture companies with majority Thai ownership but adequate safeguards for the foreign minority interest.
b. Long term leases with rights to renewal.

Proposed Changes

Recently there have been many proposals trying to liberalize land ownership by foreigners, and indeed in April 1999, after several years of rumors the rules on foreign ownership of condos were liberalized. Often the proposals are reported as having already taken effect long before they actually become law or official policy. A foreigner who is considering acquiring an interest in land in Thailand should check carefully the current status of laws and policies before taking action.

juices

Retired Army
07-22-06, 13:03
[quote] In fact, Thailand does not have a treaty with any country permitting foreigners from that country to own land. Therefore, foreigners are effectively prohibited from owning land in Thailand. [quote]


America has a treaty with Thailand. That is why the Embassy compounds and Ambassador's residence on Wireless Road are wholy owned by the U.S. Not leased as with other embassies. As an American you can legally own up to one rai of land for residential purposes.

PosterLion
07-22-06, 13:20
America has a treaty with Thailand. That is why the Embassy compounds and Ambassador's residence on Wireless Road are wholy owned by the U.S. Not leased as with other embassies. As an American you can legally own up to one rai of land for residential purposes.

Hey RA,

Aren't Americans also allowed to register their own company in Thailand? I've heard that Americans are the only ones granted such a privelidge.

poster

PosterLion
07-22-06, 13:32
I have owned an S Corporation for the past 6 years and last year I bought out my partner's interests (30%) so I know about articles of incorporation, share distribution and operating a business. Yeah, class A shares sounds very good until you find out it just a name with no voting rights. But wouldn't you trust the class B share holders (with majority voting rights) at Google when the those 2 geeks have a proven record?

Juicey,

Didn't mean to stir the pot too much. I think Giotto owns or used to own a Condo in BKK. Maybe he can comment here.

As far as Google is concerned, I wouldn't exactly say that the 3 geeks have a proven track record just yet. Sure, they got a search engine and they made a killing in the IPO, but so did every other internet company. Yahoo comes to mind.

I would also venture that the day isn't too far off when Google will be trading on the market at a price similar to Yahoo once everyone realizes that Google is mostly a bunch of smoke and mirrors with little substance. ;)

poster

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 13:41
R. Army,

I think this is what you are refering to:

THE TREATY OF AMITY AND ECONOMIC RELATIONS

BETWEEN THE KINGDOM OF THAILAND AND
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

The Amity Treaty between Thailand and the United States was entered into during the Vietnam conflict era. At the time, there were close relations between the US and Thailand. The U.S. and Thailand ratified the treaty in 1968. This treaty was negotiated to be in effect for a period of ten years. After the expiration of 10 years, both parties had the option to terminate the treaty but did not and as a result the treaty is still in effect. The period in which this treaty became active offered little in the way of gains to Americans.

This is because at that time there were no restrictions regarding foreigners entering into business in Thailand. However, subsequent legislation has made it more difficult for foreigners to do business in Thailand and, as a result, the Amity Treaty, at the present time, provides a relative advantage to Americans as opposed to other foreign nationals doing business in Thailand. However, it is important to be aware that the treaty does not grant the right to immigrate, the right to own land, the right to a visa nor the right to work.

Benefits: Excluding the seven stated exceptions enumerated in the Treaty, Americans have rights the same as any Thai national with regards to owning and operating businesses in Thailand. These same rights are reserved for Thai nationals in the United States. However, because the U.S., unlike Thailand, has no restrictions regarding foreigners doing business in the U.S., benefits are rarely claimed by Thai nationals under this treaty. It should be noted however, that they do retain the right of applying for Treaty Trader and Treaty Investor visas under the US immigration laws as a result of the Treaty.

Excluded Businesses: The following business activities are excluded from protection under the treaty. In other words, the following businesses are restricted to Thai nationals and Americans are prohibited from owning or operating these businesses in the same manner that other non-Thai nationals are excluded from these businesses, notwithstanding the Amity
Treaty.
- communications
- transportation
- fiduciary functions (the Thai text of the treaty translates "fiduciary functions" as "taking care of the property of others" and therefore sees businesses such as warehousing and guard services to be included in this category and are not granted protection with regards to this
treaty).
- banking involving depository functions (interpreted to include the finance business)
- exploiting natural resources or land
- domestic trading in indigenous agricultural products
- the liberal professions
Entitled Persons: The equal national treatment benefits under the treaty may be claimed by - American citizens

- Business entities established under Thai law which are majority American owned; or

- Business entities established under American law (the laws of a state, territory or district), which are majority American owned and managed.
Qualifying Process: For a treaty protected business entity to do business they must submit an application to the Ministry of Commerce for a Treaty Protection Letter. The entity's right to do business will not be recognized by other Thai government offices without such a letter, so obtaining one is therefore advisable.

To qualify for treaty status, an applicant must present documents proving that the natural person or most of the partners or shareholders of a company (or partnership) are American citizens.

A copy of the applicant's passport should be sufficient evidence for natural persons and shareholders and or partners in either a company or partnership. Evidence must be presented proving a company's incorporation in the US for a shareholder to be in the Thai business entity. Evidence must also be supplied proving that the majority of the shareholders and directors are American citizens. An affidavit may be given stating the number of shares owned by Americans if the shareholders are numerous. If shares are
publicly traded then an estimate involving the number of shares owned by Americans may be given. An affidavit which lists the names and nationalities of the directors may also be given by the company secretary. Documents such as this, as well as all other other documents concerning
American companies and shareholders, must be notarized or certified. This must be done by a government official, and is then subject to authentication by a Thai Embassy or Consulate.

Subsidiary companies must present evidence proving their relation to the parent company which would then be scrutinized by the same criteria as stated above. American companies interested in doing business through a branch office are encouraged to apply for a Treaty Protection Letter and to submit evidence of their American nationality.

Submission of documents to the Ministry of Commerce must also contain a letter from the Commercial Attaché of the US Embassy in Bangkok. This letter must confirm that the applicants are American and entitled to protection under the treaty.

Source: U.S. Embassy in Thailand

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 13:50
R. Army, also check out the following article:

How to Register for Treaty of Amity Benefits for American Companies?


The Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations between the United States of America and the Kingdom of Thailand - commonly known as the Treaty of Amity - was signed on May 29, 1968. There are two major benefits of the treaty:

The Treaty allows American companies to maintain a majority shareholding or to wholly own its company, branch office or representative office located in Thailand
American companies receive national treatment. That is, they may engage in business on the same basis as Thai companies, and are exempt from most of the restrictions on foreign investment imposed by the Alien Business Law of 1972.
ctions on American investment still exist. They include:
1. owning land;
2. engaging in the business of inland communications;
3. engaging in inland transportation and communication industries:
4. engaging in fiduciary functions;
5. engaging in banking involving depository functions;
6. engaging in domestic trade in indigenous agricultural products;
7. exploiting land or other natural resources

Some US businesses still choose to form joint ventures with Thai partners and allow them to hold the majority stake because of their familiarity with the Thai economy and local regulations.

To qualify for benefits under the Treaty of Amity, the steps outlined in the table below must be completed. Application for certification of a Treaty company is generally done in conjunction with or after establishment of a company (Contact the Commercial Service for information on registering a Thai Company).

Completion of the entire Treaty certification process typically takes about five weeks. It normally takes less than one week for certification from the U.S. Commercial Service office. The steps required for Commercial Service certification are attached.

It may be advisable to consult with a Thai legal or tax expert to be assured of successful registration.

Contacts :
U.S. Commercial Service
Diethelm Tower A, 3rd Floor, Suite 304
93/1 Wireless Road
Bangkok, 10330, Thailand
Tel : (662) 255-4365
Fax : (662) 255-2915
E-mail : obangkok@doc.gov

Department of Commercial Registration
Ministry of Commerce
Maha Rat Road
Bangkok 10200
Tel : (662) 222-9851, 222-9889
Fax : (662) 225-8493

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 13:55
No worries, you are not stirring anything (yet). Anyway, owning a condo is OK but owning land under your name is not OK, unless....etc.

As far as Google goes in my opinion they have proven to have a profitable long lasting business and is here to stay. They will expand and continue to grow.

juicy

Piper1
07-22-06, 13:59
The Traveler, I will get back to you later and prove you wrong. Of course "here we go again". LOL! TT will not let that one go!

I'll have a good read of all this soon, as I'm seriously thinking of investing in a vacation property somewhere in the world.

Maybe it's time for a new thread: "Buying real-estate/Setting up in Thailand" ??

Giotto
07-22-06, 14:15
...
Didn't mean to stir the pot too much. I think Giotto owns or used to own a Condo in BKK. Maybe he can comment here. ...PosterLion,

Are you out of your mind? Do you want to drag me in this same as I "dragged" The Traveler into my thread to post 72 reports (up to now) ?

LOL.

As you said in my thread: "NO, NOO, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"!

JuiciMousi,

Have fun! If you need advice - there is a report in my thread called "The Development of Flames". One part is about being right or wrong, another part about contradictions.

Don't anybody tell me that I did not try my best!!!

ROFLMAO!



Giotto (rolling on the floor!)

Retired Army
07-22-06, 14:38
You certainly know your stuff and have access to a great deal of information. I am definately impressed.

To double check my statement about Americans owning land in Thailand I just called an American friend in Pattaya. He says that he owns his own house and the land. About 1/4 Rai in a subdivision. He is married to a Thai, as are most of my friends in Thailand, and said the deed to the land and house are in both of their names. His wife is also an American citizen of Thai birth. She gave up her citizenship in the 70's for American citizenship before the U.S. allowed her to have both.

I also checked with my GF's relative who is married to an American. He has lived here since the 60's, in the same house, and said that he owns both the house and land. His wife is a Thai National without American citizenship. He has a permanent residence visa.

I also work with a guy who is married to a Thai, who took American citizenship and since moved back to Thailand. He recently bought a house and land in anticipation of retiring in Thailand. He claims to own the land. He is going to attempt to gain Thai citizenship. Claims to be well connected enough with someone in the government to pull it off.

How is this possible; am I missing something here?

RA

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 15:34
R. Army,

You are close to the getting the answer...

Giotto,

What can I say? To flame or not to flame? Or, he will flame himself alone. It always works.

Piper 1,

".... I will prove you wrong..." The right set up? :D

I love both mango and watermelon juice.

juices

Retired Army
07-22-06, 15:49
R. Army,

You are close to the getting the answer...

juices

Help me master... the only thing these guys have in common, besides being a carbon based life form and American, is they are married to Thais or former Thai Nationals. One is here on a permanent residence visa, the other on a retirement visa and the third a work visa. Yet they all own land. Am I missing something?

1Ball
07-22-06, 16:52
RA, you say your friend owns 1/4 rai. Do you know how much land that is? It is 1/10 of an acre. Your friend lives on a postage stamp!

OK, time for round 5.

Esbobes
07-22-06, 17:32
RA, you say your friend owns 1/4 rai. Do you know how much land that is? It is 1/10 of an acre. Your friend lives on a postage stamp!

OK, time for round 5.I agree.

Your friend must be so lucky to own so much land in Thailand.

Maybe he could take it with him to America.

Please tell me why anyone would buy land in Thailand?

Are they out of land in America?

I would like to sell him the Brooklyn Bridge or swamp land in Florida.

Retired Army
07-22-06, 17:59
RA, you say your friend owns 1/4 rai. Do you know how much land that is? It is 1/10 of an acre. Your friend lives on a postage stamp!

OK, time for round 5.

I was guessing as to the size. I only have a rough estimate as to how much a rai is. You say it's 1/10 of an acre. I thought it was closer to an acre, so I am off by a factor of ten. Damn, the first mistake I have ever made in my life. It's a standard lot in a subdivision, whatever size that is. His neighbor is about 30 feet away on the side with a 30' front yard and perhaps 50' in the rear. He lives on a corner lot so he has some additional land on the side. More land than I care to mow.

Retired Army
07-22-06, 18:04
I agree.

Your friend must be so lucky to own so much land in Thailand.

Maybe he could take it with him to America.

Please tell me why anyone would buy land in Thailand?

Are they out of land in America?

I would like to sell him the Brooklyn Bridge or swamp land in Florida.

Apparently you have never lived in Thailand. I have lived in both and I like Thailand much better. I am from California and I love the weather, but I hate the people and politics so I chose to live in Thailand. There is no other place in the U.S. I would consider living. Although, I love Australia and when I finally have to quit working I might apply for a retirement visa there while maintaining my place in BKK so I can be close to Bumrungrad. Health care in Australia is a problem for non-citizens.

The Traveler
07-22-06, 19:04
TT, here some reading for you and maybe you will learn something....I'm going to the gym now so I expect comments (I'm sure with a lot of questions too) from you when I get back.

Juice,

thanks for the reading but there is nothing new to me.
Sorry to disappoint you, but no questions either.

Didn't you notice that my posted Ltd. share dates back to 2530 ? Sorry, I forgot, you can't read it. :)
You try to tell me about something I am doing for almost 20yrs now, you on the other side do only Google.



Despite the broad scope of the prohibition on foreign ownership of land and condominiums in Thailand, and the narrow scope of the exceptions, a variety of tactics can be used to minimize the impact of the prohibitions. These include, for example:

a. Forming joint venture companies with majority Thai ownership but adequate safeguards for the foreign minority interest.

Did you read your own post ?
Now you contradict yourself and finally confirm what I have said, so what are you arguing about ?
It's not enough to just copy and paste it, you should also understand it.



The Traveler, I will get back to you later and prove you wrong.

LOL, you only proved yourself wrong :D

The Traveler
07-22-06, 19:07
As an American you can legally own up to one rai of land for residential purposes.
RA,

actually any foreigner - not just US Americans - who is married to a Thai can own up to one rai of land solely for residential purposes.


I was guessing as to the size. I only have a rough estimate as to how much a rai is.

1 rai = 1600 sqm



You certainly know your stuff and have access to a great deal of information. I am definately impressed.

No need to be impressed because he knows how to Google.
He obviously hasn't read what he copied and pasted in here or - which is worse - didn't understand it.
Otherwise he would have seen that it contradicts with his point of view and only confirms what I have said.
And wasn't his aim to prove me wrong ? :D

Retired Army
07-22-06, 19:32
RA,

actually any foreigner - not just US Americans - who is married to a Thai can own up to one rai of land solely for residential purposes.

1 rai = 1600 sqm

OK, 40 x 40 meters or roughly 133 feet x 133 feet. That I can understand. What I don't understand is that in two of the examples I presented, the women had given up their Thai citizenship and were American citizens. And what happens to the land if they divorce?

The Traveler
07-22-06, 20:17
Under former Land Office policy, Thai nationals who married foreigners were prohibited from ownership of land in Thailand. This prohibition was based on principles of community property law and a general presumption that the Thai spouse was holding the land for the benefit of the foreigner. However, under current Land Office policy the Thai spouse can own land in Thailand, provided that the foreign spouse signs a letter declaring the property to be the separate property of the Thai spouse and waiving any interest in the property.

Juicy Boy,

your post is inaccurate and totally wrong in part. You mismatch "ownership" with "purchase" for example. (see above quote)

Here a little reading for you, far more accurate to answer most questions that might occur regarding buying property in LOS :


1.) Can I Own a Condominium in Thailand?

Buying a condominium, is perhaps the simplest and easiest option available to foreigners. The only restrictions on purchasing a condominium, are that the percentage of units sold to foreigners cannot exceed forty nine percent (49% - although this has varied at times) of the total number of units in the condominium block; and that the funds used to buy the condominium have been remitted from abroad and correctly recorded as such by a Thai Bank on a Tor Tor Sam. Purchases of condominiums by foreign individuals come under the jurisdiction of the CONDOMINIUM ACT (No. 3) B.E. 2542 (1999).

The owner of each condominium is issued with a certificate of unit ownership. The certificate also has a statement saying exactly what percentage of rights over the common areas of the building each owner has.


2.) Can I Own a House and Land in Thailand?

Ownership of land is governed by the Land Code BE 2497 (1954), the Civil and Commercial Code, Land Reform for Agriculture Act BE 2518 (1975) and the regulations set forth by the Ministry of the Interior.

Under Thai law, any person can register any type of building in their own name, therefore a foreigner can own a structure (for example a house) erected on the land and may register such ownership (with proof) at the Amphur (local district) Land Office. Certainty of possession of land and house is assured by being the owner of the house. If arranged in this manner, then the house will be separate from the land, and will not be a component part under Civil Law.

Ownership of land by foreigners, on the other hand, is a totally different story, and is highly restricted in the Kingdom of Thailand. Having said that, it isn't impossible for a foreigner to own freehold land, provided they abide by strict rules and fall within certain conditions, viz:

Become a Thai resident/citizen


Receive an inheritance as a statutory heir under section 93 of the Land Code, in this instance, the total area including the land which has already been acquired (or has not yet been acquired) shall not exceed that specified in section 87 of the Land Code, i.e. not more than 1 Rai (1,600 sqm. - for RA :)) for a residential purpose.


Bringing the money into the Kingdom for investment to the amount as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulation, which shall be not less than Baht forty million. In this instance, the land to be acquired must be for a residential purpose and must be of not more than 1 Rai (1,600 sqm.) in area, provided also that permission must be obtained from the Minister. Under section 96 bis of the Land Code, the application for such acquisition of land shall be in accordance with rules, procedures and conditions prescribed in the Ministerial Regulation.


Applying for acquisition of land under other laws such as the Promotion of Investment Act, B.E. 2520 (1977), the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand Act, B.E. 2522 (1979), the Petroleum Act, B.E. 2514 (1971). Detailed Information regarding the Promotion of Investment Act and the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand Act can be obtained from the Board of Investment (BOI) and from the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand.


30 Year Lease with Options - you can have a 30 year lease with a prepaid option to renew for a further two periods of 30 years each. The foreigner may also be given the option to purchase the land should the law in respect of foreign ownership of land change in the future. In order to be enforceable, any lease for a period of longer than three years must be registered, which involves payment of a registration fee and stamp duty based on a percentage of the rental fee for the whole lease term. The original registered lease remains in force and effect even if the property is sold. The drawbacks to a lease include the fact that the parties can contractually agree to renewals, but this right cannot be registered and is not effective against a purchaser of the property, and that the lessee cannot (without the lessor's consent) sublease, sell or transfer his or her interest.


Usufruct Interest (Sidhi-kep-kin) - gives you temporary ownership rights to things on or arising from the land. In practice, a usufruct is limited to a 30 year maximum period; like leases, the agreement can be successively renewed. In contrast to a lease, a usufructury interest can be sold or transferred, although it expires upon the death of the holder of the usufruct and therefore cannot be inherited.


Limited Liability Company - this form of purchasing property is the most popular with foreign investors as the Articles of Association can be varied to allow greater protection for foreign minority shareholders where majority Thai ownership is required under the Alien Business Law. Thai law requires that 51% of the shares be held by Thai juristic persons, however, any company with more than 40% foreign interest that purchases land will be investigated by the Central Land Office in Bangkok (under Section 74 of the Land Code) to ensure that the company has not been organized in an attempt to circumvent the prohibition against foreign ownership of land. (BTW, that's why my share (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=49146)) of the Ltd. was only 33%).
This results in the foreign ownership of the company being limited at 39%, but with changes to the Articles of Association, the use of two tiered stocks (ie. Ordinary Shares and Preferred Shares with different voting rights), plus the foreigner being the only director of the company who can commit or bind the company in any contractual dealings - it is possible to effectively give the minority shareholder control over the company !!! (Juicy, did yxou read this ??? :D)


When purchasing property in Thailand, it is important to abide by the rules and regulations in order to protect the interests of both the Buyer and Seller. It is highly advisable to use Escrow Agreements when buying or selling property in Thailand - an Escrow Agreement will offer protection and assurance to both the Buyer and Seller.


3.) What is a Tor Tor Sam ?

A Tor Tor Sam (3) is an official bank document issued by the receiving bank upon the receipt of foreign currency into your bank account in Thailand. You must request a Tor Tor Sam from your bank when you are remitting funds to Thailand for the purpose of purchasing a condominium, and the Tor Tor Sam must specify that the remittance is solely for the purpose of purchasing a property - Code 5.22.


4.) Do They Have Title Deeds in Thailand?

There are broadly four types of Land Title in Thailand that are used as common evidence of land ownership, possessory rights and other interests in land:

Chanote (Title Deed)
A Chanote is a certificate for ownership of land. A person having their name shown on the deed has the legal right to the land, and can use it as evidence to confirm the right to government authorities.

The title deed has been issued by using GPS to set the area and boundaries of the land, which is a very accurate method. It is the long term goal of the Land Department that all land in Thailand will be covered under the Chanote title system. This is the most secure type of land title and is highly recommended.


Nor Sor Sam Kor (Confirmed Cerificate of Use)
This certifies that the person named on the certificate has the confirmed right to use the land, implying all requirements for the issuance of the title deed have been met and issuance of the deed is pending. They may be sold, leased, used as mortgage collateral and etc. The holder of this certificate cannot leave the land unattended for more than 12 years.

The Chanote and Nor Sor Sam Kor are the only titles over which registerable right of ownership or lease can exist and are as such the only ones that a prudent foreigner should consider.


Nor Sor Sam (Cerificate of Use)Similar to the above Confirmed Certificate of Use except that not all of the formalities to certify the right to use have been performed. Before a transfer can be made, a notice of intent must be posted and then 30 days public notice is necessary before any change of status over the land can be registered.


Sor Kor Nung (Certificate of Possession)This recognises that a person is in possession of land but the Certificate does not imply that there are any rights associated with the possession. It is not transferable, but a person in possession may transfer physical possession and the new possessor may apply for a new Certificate of Possession.


Ask to see a copy of the front and back of the land or condo title deed. A faithful translation of this will show you who the current owner is; if the property has any endorsements or liens; the shape, area and orientation of the property and border to a public property (such as a road, stream or the ocean).


5.) Can I Get a Mortgage Loan?

Foreigners generally cannot mortgage properties in Thailand, however, most of the financial institutions in Thailand provide loans for real estate purchasing to Thais and Thai companies. It is common for a real estate developer to arrange for his customers to have a financing package from a financial institution. In most real estate development projects, a down payment can be made in installments from 10 to 24 months. After the down payment has been paid, the sale contract will be made and the balance amount is paid through the loan which is financed from a financial institution. The financial institution requires you to mortgage the property with it as collateral against the loan.

For those interested : The Bangkok Bank in Singapore is now providing home loans to approved customers


6.) Land Appraisals and Valuations

Finding the exact appraisal price for land is difficult, since there are generally three different appraisal rates; the government rate, the appraisal company's rate and the rate which is considered to be fair market value of the land. Over the last few years all of these rates have begun to come closer together.


7.) What Should I Look for in a Property?

Whether you are considering renting, leasing or purchasing property there are several infrastructure and other considerations which must be taken into account:

Location - Roads, proximity and access to business, shops, hospitals and etc.
Telephones - Access to direct lines and IDD facilities
Water - Mains water and supplementary storage facilities.
Electricity - Mains connection, and backup generators for condominium blocks
Security - 24 hour security service, door and window locks
Cable or Satellite TV connection
Pest Control - localised spraying and flywire screens on windows
Hot water facilities - nearly all in Thailand are instant and not storage
Air Conditioning - a necessity in Thailand
White Goods - Refrigerators and Washing Machines
and so on



8.) My Wife is a Thai National, Can She Own Land?

Prior to 1998, any Thai woman who married a foreigner would lose her right to purchase land in Thailand. She could, however, still retain land that she owned prior to marrying the foreigner. However, the recent (1999) Ministerial regulation now allows Thai national's married to foreigners the right to purchase land, but the Thai spouse must prove that the money used in the purchase of freehold land is legally solely theirs with no foreign claim to it. This is usually achieved by the foreign spouse signing a declaration stating that the funds used for the purchase of property belonged to the Thai spouse prior to the marriage and are beyond his claim.


9.) Are There Property Taxes in Thailand?

There are no property taxes as such in Thailand that are exactly equivalent to the property taxes in the west, however, the most comparable taxes on properties in Thailand are the Land Tax and the Structures Usage Tax. The Land Tax levied on land is so miniscule, that in practice the body charged to collect it, rarely bothers to do so, and if they do, they usually wait several years until the amount accumulates. The second tax, the Structures Usage Tax, relates to buildings, is collected by the municipal office or district office, and is only applied to properties used for commercial purpose.


10.) What Taxes and Costs are Applicable to Purchasing a Property?

Whenever a property in Thailand is bought and sold, there are four taxes that need to be taken into account (many buyers, especially foreigners, fail to take these into account).

Unfortunately, in December 2003 the Cabinet issued a resolution relating to tax issues, and from 1 January 2004 onwards, specific business tax, which is imposed on the sale of immovable property, will return to the original 3.3 percent rate as a result of the recovery of the property sector. In 2001, the government reduced the property tax to 0.11 percent to stimulate the property sector. Similarly, the transfer fee will also return to the normal rate of 2 percent instead of the reduced rate of .01 percent

Land registration (transfer fee) of 2.0% of assessed value of the land.

Stamp Duty/Fee of 0.5% of the assessed value or the sale price - whichever is higher.

Specific Business Tax of 3.3% of the assessed value or the sale price - whichever is higher - this will be applied to all sales by companies and to any private sales that occur within 5 years of the date of purchase.

Income Tax - this is calculated on a very complex formula based on the assessed value of the property, the length of time owned and the applicable personal income tax rate. In practice, this will work out to under 2% of the price for low to medium value properties, and up to 3% for higher value properties.


Because of the local system of taxing property on an arbitrary assessed value as determined by the Land Department, rather than true market value, these taxes could amount to a considerable percentage of the purchase price.

Therefore, if you haven't determined during the negotiations that the seller will pay the taxes upon transfer, you could get a nasty shock when a tax bill arrives - often some two or three months after the sale is completed. As in all business transactions anywhere, caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) rules. There are no set rules on who pays for which taxes and it is just another part of the bargaining process - make sure you discuss it with the agent and your own lawyer.

For more detailed information on the acquisition of land by an alien (foreigner) refer to the Department of Lands Information page.

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 21:46
Traveler,

Your cut and paste info is nothing new. Your earlier post to just put some Thai in your so called Limited Company does not work and is misleading, so you are wrong about your simplistic suggestion as to how buy land in Thailand. Your bogus company approach does not work.

Read this so you can be more informed:

It is a commonly advised tactic to set up a company for the sole purpose of buying property, e.g., a majority Thai-owned company with "nominee" directors, whereby some of the directors are strangers unaware of what their name is on (to prevent a conspiracy) and/or provide signed documents selling their shares which are held by the farang as security (again, against a conspiracy of shareholders).

You should be aware, however, that bogus companies for the sole purpose of property ownership and nominee directors are not legal. The exist insofar as they are not being prosecuted. People will point out that they are rarely prosecuted, but prosecution is possible.

The way this is often pitched is as follows:

"Put a few hundred dollars worth of baht in your pocket. Get all the forms for shareholders in your company. Go onto the street and find some strangers. Pay them some tens of dollars to sign a shareholder document, sign another document selling their shares (leaving the date blank), and go photocopy their ID card. These are your six Thai shareholders. They don't even know what company they are shareholders in. Even if you get a big problem and someone traces down these shareholders based on their ID card, you already have their signed document selling their shares so that you can immediately backdate and transfer these shares to a trusted person."

Another way this is pitched is by lawyers who say "Leave it up to us, we will handle all of the above".

The option, of course, is to find trusted shareholders who know exactly what they own (say, 61% of your company split among 6 shareholders). These shareholders may be a combination of employees, relatives, friends, other associates, shareholders of other companies you are involved in, whatever. This is not a sham company, but it's a company you must set up carefully and manage.

A hybrid option is that the latter company owns the property and issues a 2x30 lease to you.

To many, the main benefit of company ownership of property is that a company can own or lease a lot more property than can an individual.
-------

I hope you learned something. You forgot to tell us what all your businesses and properties you owned through a corporation in Thailand were. You forgot to?

juices

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 21:55
The Traveler,

Here is the link I got from Google which is the same info you posted below except for your little editing... You are a disgraceful cheater making people think you got that information from your so called 20 years mongering in Thailand and real-estate expertise...Hmm. Hey, at least you are doing the right Google search.

Read it again because you forgot to post a couple things. :D

http://www.thaiproperty.com/faq.htm


Poster,

Google works! Buy their stocks.

juices

The Traveler
07-22-06, 22:18
Juicy Boy,

can't you live with the fact that you contradicted yourself and confirmed what I have said ?
Now you start that flaming to distract from it !

BTW, I have never said that my below post was only the result of my 20yrs experience in this field.
I just did not mention the source of the article, something you did not do too.
It was obvious to everybody that it didn't originate from me, completely different writing style but that doesn't make it wrong, even better, independend people who are active in the real estate business are confirming what I said.

Now you start to call me names because I pointed out that your "knowledge" is only a Google result !
Want to distract from it too ?

Here are the links you have used (there are also some other links with the same contents)
http://www.siamfuture.com/faq/RegTreat.asp
http://www.tusbc.org/fta_readingroom/treaty_emb.pdf
http://www.thaivisa.com/own_land_thailand.0.html
http://www.thailandguru.com/infra-property.html

So may I also call you a liar because you didn't gave us the source of those articles ?

Additionally, Google works but you obviously don't know how to use it.
You referred to the wrong link. You might note that the section with the different kinds of land titles is missing. :D
And what do you believe is missing in my post ? It even contains more as already hinted out.

BTW, how do you explain the pic of the Ltd. share ?
I can show the original to Giotto next time I am in BKK, in case you want to call me a liar again.

I did not forget to tell you about my properties and working, that was never promised or requested.
Again you try to debase me to distract from your failure to prove me wrong !

Some time ago I already mentioned what kind of property I have owned and what kind of businesses I was involved in. You should know, you called me a blowhard back then. I used to own houses, townhouses and condos and worked in the financial and medical equipment sector. Still do some finance business in LOS. If interested in details, read back, it's all in the forum.


It's easy to see that you only oppose me because you have a dislike in me.
It's also easy to see that you contradicted yourself and unintentionally confirmed what I have said.
I know it's hard for you to accept that you are in an inferior position in this debate, but I am 20yrs ahead of you.
I have been there and done that what you are trying to find out by using Google.

But all of that is no reason to start flaming again. Stick to facts and facts only, nothing else. Otherwise you disqualify yourself.
Remember, only people without arguments need to flame !

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 23:19
Traveler,

Nice try at twisting things around but it won't work. My point was very simple: your suggestion on how to buy land was simplistic and wrong as the way you posted. Even your own cut and paste info says so. So, you are wrong. Your idea to create a bogus limited company is mileading and bad advice. Read again what I posted about creating a bogus company to buy land. At least try to learn somehting from your mistakes.

And your claims that you have owned houses, condos, bla, bla bla are just pure fantasy. You can't find what is missing from your Google cut and paste? Read slowly and carefully and you will find it. Try it.

Your 20 years mongering in Thailand don't mean anything to me but you can feel superior if you want to. Who really cares when you are the leading ass in the forum. There is a little flame for you to get you going.

juices

The Traveler
07-22-06, 23:35
Juicy Boy,

read back how we started off. My point was, that you can own some land and a house via a Ltd. and that you can stay in control of it, even if you only have the minority.
You later turned it into a bogus company. It can be one, but it doesn't has to be one. Feel free to back it up with any kind of biz you like. The fact that there are tens or hundreds of thousands of "bogus" companies out there without any trouble should be proof enough that it works. The Thai Government is well aware that any attempt to take action against those companies would crash the real estate market. There have been discussion in the 90's in the Thai Government regarding this issue, but they never dared to crack down on them. It would also be very hard to do so because you could immediately close down the old company and start a new one with real business behind it.

It's also very interesting that you believe to know better than me about my past.
Do you also know about the future ?
I am interested in the winning numbers of next week's lottery :)

I could easily post photos of those properties, but you would again call me a liar and would say that those places were rented or owned by someone else.
I also don't want to give out too many infos about myself.

Nevertheless you fail to explain why I have those shares and what I used them for ?

No need for me to look for anything "missing". It's the wrong link.

BTW, opposite to you I did much more than just mongering in LOS.
And what do you mean by "shark loan scheme thing" 2yrs ago ? What are you talking about ?
Again try to defame me to distract from your failure to prove me wrong ?

As I already said, only people without arguments need to flame.
The fact that you actually flame me right now is prove enough for your weak position.

JuiceSpike
07-22-06, 23:43
You don't get it, do you?

You are agruing with yourself. You always do. Always whinning about how bad people treat you in here. Do a search on your handle and you will see what I'm talking about.

I repeat: your 20 years in Thailand don't impress me and you don't either. Live with it and move on.

Finally: do you like mango juice or watermelon juice?

juices

The Traveler
07-22-06, 23:54
Juicy,

right question : what arguments ?
You provided none.

Mango is too sweet, watermelon is ok but lemon is better.

JuiceSpike
07-23-06, 00:05
Traveler,

I asked you if you liked either watermelon or mango juice, not lemon juice.
Don't you know how to read a question?

See, you don't get it. Please don't whine about this now.... :D

juices

The Traveler
07-23-06, 00:23
Juicy Boy,

I expected you to be smart enough to conclude that I like watermelon when I say that "mango is too sweet but watermelon is ok".

Sorry if such a simple logical conclusion asks too much of you.
I obviously expected too much from you :(

I only provided additional info when I said "lemon is better" but I didn't knew that this would go beyond your capacity.

JuiceSpike
07-23-06, 00:32
Traveler,

Of course you would whine about me ignoring your choice of "better" versus your preference on watermelon over mango and why I ignored your clever answer... I wanted to see how you would react: as predicted. Whining

OK, you are trying too hard.

juices

The Traveler
07-23-06, 00:36
Juicy Boy,

weak answer, not logic, not cutting, only repetitive.
Why not pick up on what I said ? Can't you ? :)

Nevertheless, there is no substance in it and it only serves your ego.
This is a complete waste of bandwith, how long will you go on with it ?

JuiceSpike
07-23-06, 00:42
Traveler,

Yeah, you are wasting bandwith whining... Your so called substance is mostly about whining. Read below. So, why not show substance and stop whining?

juices

The Traveler
07-23-06, 00:50
Juicy Boy,

I am not whining, I am just having fun with you. :D

Come on, keep going. Maybe we can attract more hits to this thread as others might enjoy your show too. :)

The Traveler
07-23-06, 01:19
I think that others read these posts, not out of enjoyment, but for some of the same reason they look at road kill. I read with them with a mixture of disgust at the pettiness and curiousity about how the other will respond.

Not a real good analogy, as you dont look at road kill with disgust at the pettiness, but you get my point.

I will delete this post soon as it is in no way relative to anything pertinent about Thailand.
Horatio,

I got it. This shit is somehow addictive, isn't it ?

I guess it's like smoking, cigarettes don't taste and stink, but so many are addicted to them.
By saying that it comes to my mind that Juice is a chain smoker but I don't smoke at all :)

JuiceSpike
07-23-06, 02:19
Horatio,

Best to start a new discussion than keeping it going.

Traveler,

I have never been a chain smoker and I actually quit 3 weeks ago. Good for me.

juices

Retired Army
07-23-06, 07:33
I have to admit that you two guys really know your "stuff." I learned quite a bit from your banter.

Now for a more serious question: what's the solution in the Middle East with Hamas and Iran?

The Traveler
07-23-06, 07:34
I see that you are fast approaching the point of no return and being sucked into that dark, gapping maw known as The Traveler.

Hi Captain Future,

or Captain Kirk, Picard or what ever you might prefer.

Thanks for your input. You, with your extensive knowledge about Thailand in general and Thai Laws, could have informed us on how a foreigner can own some land and a house and how it is usually done in this beautiful country. The fact that you avoid to do so and rather concentrate on the "important" part of the discussion says it all.

I expected you or Giotto making me responsible for the ongoing flame, and you didn't disappoint me :)


But let's have a look on how it developed, Giotto will like the summary, it's his hobbyhorse.

1.) A member asked for advice for a friend who got seperated from his GF and is about to loose all his investments in a property.

2.) Many answer, also The Traveler, who additionally points out how this situation could be avoided by owning the property via a Ltd. company.

3.) JuiceSpike objects (sure he has to, it was The Traveler who gave that advice) because he believes that you can't stay in control if you have only the minority in a company.

4.) The Traveler explains him how it is usually done.

5.) JuiceSpike still objects (now that he has choosen his path of destiny there is no way to return) and says that there are more "sophisticated businesses" than a Ltd. to own property but without naming any.

6.) The Traveler asks for examples and more specific details.

7.) JuiceSpike googles and comes back with a "Treaty of Amity" which misses the point plus an excerpt of Thai Laws found at a website. He doesn't note that it contradicts his original point of view and confirms what the Traveler had said.

8.) Standing corrected but being unable to admit that, JuiceSpike does what he always does in situations like that : he starts to defame The Traveler (liar, shark money) and flames him (ass ....) to distract from his failure to prove him wrong.

9.) The Traveler expected that move as every discussion between him and Mr. JuiceSpike sooner or later takes this turn. He is amused about it and makes fun out of Juicy Boy.

10.) In the end JuiceSpike still fails to name those more "sophisticated businesses", but nobody notes that because it's flaming-time.


What do we learn from this ?
Correct, not the one who started to flame is wrong, it must be The Traveler who tried to give advice, but since we have a dislike in him, he is the one to blame.

Juicy Boy, am I whining ? :D

The Traveler
07-23-06, 07:41
I have never been a chain smoker and I actually quit 3 weeks ago.

Juicy Boy,

you have been a chain smoker when we first met. Actually you lighted each cigarette with the preceeding one for almost two hours.

Congrats that you finally made the right decision. Hope you can stick to it this time.

The Traveler
07-23-06, 07:45
Now for a more serious question: what's the solution in the Middle East with Hamas and Iran?
RA,

Hamas and Iran don't have any trouble with each other. The question must be Hamas, Hisbollah and Israel.
But since Syria and Iran are involved in the background the question could also be Hamas, Hisbollah, Syria, Iran and Israel.

Damn, that looks like JuiceSpike, Giotto, OTH and The Traveler :D

Maybe Juicy Boy can google a bit for an answer.

Brain666
07-23-06, 07:54
In the Philippines sections the endless discussing guys finally got their own thread from Jackson where flaming and bashing is allowed.

How about a 'Traveler vs. JuicySpike vs. OldThaiHand flaming and bashing thread'?

I have to admit that different to the Philipines thread there is at least some valuable good content 'hidden' between the personal flames here. So it might take some time to get the thread.

regds and happy flaming

Brain666

The Traveler
07-23-06, 08:12
Brain,

with all due respect, but I did not flame, I would never use bad language, that has no class.
There are more "sophisticated" ways to have some fun with Juicy Boy.

I think the name of the thread should read likie "JuiceSpike and OTH vs. The Traveler".


Best regards

Retired Army
07-23-06, 09:08
As my grandpappy use to say: never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it. So why waste the energy.

The Traveler
07-23-06, 09:12
RA,

what about naked women doing some mud-wrestling ?
They will get dirty too but only to entertain the guys around them :)

Brotherrabitt
07-23-06, 09:39
Most of the discussions/information on this subject were quite interesting. I am thinking about buying a retirement home in Thailand as well, and I thank you all for the information regarding this subject.

However I have a few questions/comments. Please take into account I do not know Thailand, besides having been there a few times on business trips.

From the comments made on this subject and others, it seems that, to borrow a term from Fukuyama, Thailand is a typical "low- trust" society, where governmental over-regulation tries to compensate the overall lack of belief that as a premisse, the actions of an individual can be trusted to be beneficial to society as a whole.

I work in similar environments such as Poland and France, where I have companies. In such environments the national sport is to find creative solutions to the legal restrictions present. However, as the basic issue in creative solutions is never the actual solutions as such, but the real intention behind the solution, any creative solution can be regarded by the government as a smoke screen and declared void and non-existent.

In the situation in Thailand, where ownership of property by foreigners seems to be not allowed, or in any case heavily restricted, any creative solution has the riks of being overturned at a certain moment and does not actually give any real protection.

But in one way or the other, foreigners invest in property in Thailand through whatever legal structure or solution they are comfortable with. So the risk of the solution being overturned or declared void, seems to be acceptable.

The answer therefore needs to be of an economic and political nature. Can the Thai government afford to start effectively disowning foreigners' real-estate ? What would that mean for the foreign investments ? To what extent would their tourist industry suffer ? The negative economic and political effects seem to be huge.

No Thai official will be fooled by whatever company structure is set up, they will understand the real intentions behind the structure and in the case where the real intentions are to do something which by law specifically is not allowed, in the end the structure chosen, however creative, is no real protection.

My question therefore is, what are the real chances of this government or any future government, to start attacking/destroying/dismantling the creative solutions implemented by individuals or companies to circumvent national regulations ? Are there any cases (besides fraud and criminal activity etc) where they are doing so already ?

Thanks

V.

Giotto
07-23-06, 09:43
I think most of the facts reg. land ownership in Thailand are already available in the reports from The Traveler and JuiceSpike.

Usually the model via a Company Ltd. (7 shareholders) is selected if foreigners want to buy land (not condos) in Thailand. But – there remains a risk. I was an a seminar some time ago, “Rights and Duties of MDs of Co.Ltds in Thailand” (don’t remember the complete title of it). We heard a lecture from a high ranking Thai judge about exactly this issue.

The judge made clear that the Thai jurisdiction is well aware of this used structure, and that the legal problem of this structure is, that it is used to bypass the prohibition for foreigners to own land in Thailand.

Once this will be brought to a court it is most likely that there will be a judgment from the Supreme Court, that companies with the ONLY PURPOSE of owning land for foreigners will be declared to be illegal.

He referred especially to the structure with preferred shares (higher vote counts) or restricted shares (lower vote counts) which then gives a foreigner with a share contingent of less the 40 % virtually the control over the company.

He recommended a structure of two Co. Ltd’s, from which one is the major THAI (!) shareholder in the other Co. Ltd., together with a 39 % foreign share contingent in both companies. This structure would be MORE DIFFICULT to attack, but it would still be possible based on the above mentioned legal concerns.

He also pointed out that there was up to now NO CASE of one of this constructions was ever brought to the Supreme Court.


Giotto

Brotherrabitt
07-23-06, 09:46
Thanks G. It seems my question is answered.

Back to my Jacuzzi and budweiser.

V.

The Traveler
07-23-06, 10:07
Vandalnn,

I already answered that a few posts ago, but Giotto gave a good outlook.

In the 90's the government was already discussing if they should crack up on those companies but they finally decided not to do so.
The impact on the real estate market would be enourmous, in some places like Pattaya it would simply collapse and they are well aware that they can't afford it. The Asia crisis of the mid 90's is still in their mind, with all the impact in the financial sector. Nowadays the banks are far more careful with giving out mortgages, but it would still affect them. They know that they have to leave a backdoor open to attract retirees and wealthy foreigners to bring in foreign currencies and to boost the economy.

Ever thought of how many people earn their money in the construction and real estate business ?
How much consumption those people generate ?
How much tax is made by it ?
The usual Thai is no big tax payer and every government needs money.

Therefore the risk of cracking down on these companies is marginal at best.

Brotherrabitt
07-23-06, 10:17
TT,

Must have missed it, sorry. HFC (High Flaming Content) posts seem to impair my vision somewhat. Some medical condition I can not do much about.

V.

Esbobes
07-23-06, 10:22
I have to admit that you two guys really know your "stuff." I learned quite a bit from your banter.

Now for a more serious question: what's the solution in the Middle East with Hamas and Iran?I have checked all of us can buy homes and land in our names in Syria, Iran, Iraq and Lebanon and

Good deals and in the above countries.

South Lebanon is really cheap now.

So enjoy and buy.

Meanwhile I go short time on Sol 6. and rent a room and have no trouble.

Giotto
07-23-06, 10:40
… Therefore the risk of cracking down on these companies is marginal at best.The Traveler,

It is not that easy. Careful with statements like this.

This dependency on investments / tax income is the argumentation of property brokers as well as many foreigners coming to Thailand as tourists, getting attracted to live here and developing the idea of buying land / condos.

The target of the laws that forbid foreigners to own land in Thailand is obvious – land here is cheap and could be easily bought by many medium and upper income people from all western countries.

The actual government is TRT – Thais love Thai, with a policy “Thailand for the Thais”. Then there is the guidance of the K.*I.N,G: “Sufficiency Economy”. The economy politics is requested to concentrate on making the Thai markets independent from external dependencies, property speculation, stock market crashes, anti-baht speculations etc. to be strong enough to survive even a crisis like 1997/1998 without financial help from foreign countries. Finally there is the problem of the successor of the K.*I.N,G, most likely his son, well known as being very “reluctant” to everything which is somehow connected to foreigners.

I agree, that the risk for foreign companies investing money in Thailand and running production lines or other operations is marginal, if they buy properties here.

But in the moment when the mentioned structures are used by a bigger number of private foreign persons to purchase land here in Thailand, or if the political situation here gets more extreme under the above mentioned scenarios, there is a considerable risk that the government will intervene, change laws, nationalize or only forces those private persons to sell their land back to Thailand as a compromise, getting only a low compensation compared to the real value of their property.


Giotto

PosterLion
07-23-06, 11:11
...Now for a more serious question: what's the solution in the Middle East...?

There is one answer and one answer only: Armageddon. This is the oldest conflict in the world and the solution has been documented for thousands of years. :)

Armageddon >noun 1 (in the New Testament) the last battle between good and evil before the Day of Judgement. 2 a catastrophic conflict.
-ORIGIN Greek, from a Hebrew phrase meaning 'hill of Megiddo' (Book of Revelation, chapter 16).

poster . . .

Brotherrabitt
07-23-06, 11:14
Giotto,

It is clear that, unless a person is incredibly naive, unless the law clearly states that you are allowed something and provides sufficient legal guarantees so that your rights can be enforced, doing something which is against the law (it is not even a grey area, right ? foreigners are not allowed to own land), is always a risk.

And even if the law would allow for it, a majority in parliament can overturn it, bla bla bla etc etc etc.

However international economic reality is a law on its' own. Again the question: how realistic is this doom scenario, based upon your knowledge of the Thai political culture today ?

The previous minister of economic affairs in Poland claimed that FDI was a hazard to their economy. We have people in the dutch parliament who still think Stalin was not such a bad fellow, or Hitler for that matter some years ago. Idiots like that you find everywhere.

My question remains, what is the real risk ?

V.

Giotto
07-23-06, 11:33
Vandelnn,

very difficult to answer that question.

The political situation is instable in the moment. I don't expect problems in this period of time, because TRT and Democrats are busy fighting with each other.

The general political movement over the past few years Thaksin administration was not a movement towards the more foreigner friendly side - things got harder for foreigners here in Thailand.

International aspects (WTO, APAC, Trade agreement with USA) will force Thailand to stay moderate.

I don't expect the situation to get worse rapidly, though I expect the TRT to win the next elections. To give you a number - the probability that the government will interfer in the land ownership regulations for foreigners is not higher than 20 %, in my point of view.

But I expect single Thai business men (and their interest in special properties / land) to use this argumentation to force foreigners to sell their land at very low prices. That is the real risk.


Giotto

Retired Army
07-23-06, 12:41
There is one answer and one answer only: Armageddon. This is the oldest conflict in the world and the solution has been documented for thousands of years. :)

Armageddon >noun 1 (in the New Testament) the last battle between good and evil before the Day of Judgement. 2 a catastrophic conflict.
-ORIGIN Greek, from a Hebrew phrase meaning 'hill of Megiddo' (Book of Revelation, chapter 16).

poster . . .

I agree with you. I don't see anything good coming out of the current situation.

Brotherrabitt
07-23-06, 12:48
Thanks G. for the insight.

V.

The Traveler
07-23-06, 17:18
But in the moment when the mentioned structures are used by a bigger number of private foreign persons to purchase land here in Thailand, or if the political situation here gets more extreme under the above mentioned scenarios, there is a considerable risk that the government will intervene, change laws, nationalize or only forces those private persons to sell their land back to Thailand as a compromise, getting only a low compensation compared to the real value of their property.

Giotto,

it's true what you say but what should anybody do ?
Following your logic nobody should ever buy any kind of property, no matter if he can own it in his own name or a company with or without a legal business.

Laws can always be changed, any kind of investment comes with a risk, no matter how the current legal situation might be. Something absolutely secure today might be very risky tomorrow.

It's always the question how likely such a change is.
Even if the government might turn more nationalistic, it's still part of a complex and linked world. As Vandalnn already said, nternational economic reality is a law on its' own.

Making Thai markets strong enough to survive even a crisis like 1997/1998 without financial help from foreign countries and making them independent from external dependencies, property speculation, stock market crashes, anti-baht speculations etc. doesn't mean to go after foreigners with property in LOS. There would be absolutely no advantage in doing so, only disadvantages.

The Asia crisis was caused by too many loans, mortgages and debt given out by the banks, they financed a huge real estate bubble. But helding foreigners responsible for that would be complete nonsense.

Being independent in the context you mention equals being isolated. Every country needs trade and international ties and investments to prosper. But you can only attract international investments if you give security to the investors. If those conditions aren't met a country would end up like North Korea, Burma (Myanmar) or Cuba.

I still believe that the likelyhood of going after foreigners with property is marginal. I rather believe that - if things should turn ugly - they might freeze the current status quo and might be tougher and more restrictive to new property buyers.

LittleBigMan
07-23-06, 19:17
Interest topic about owning land in Thailand.

In the last few years during my visits in Pattaya, I have spent most of my free time looking at nearly every new project being build on the otherside of Sukhumvit. I have looked at second hand homes, Townhouses and empty lots to build a house from scratch. You name it and I must have looked at it!

I have seen homes being build from 1.5 million baht upward to 10 million baht for places in Jometien. Although I could never understand why farangs would build a massion and then sell it a year later and why someone would build or buy a home for 6 million baht, but to each his own.

I met a Thai women many years ago selling clothes she made herself at a local market. After several years she had my child and at that point I took her from a cement block home with a tin can roof to a small rental studio room with a mini-mart in the front. This past June I purchased land and house a modest 100 sq mt. so that my son can have room to play and the 2 dogs can roam without being road kill in front of our mini-mart. Total cost before furniture was 1.9 baht.

I have done limit research as to how much land can be purchased and whether I can own it. My objective prior to my retirement and the current level of the baht was to purchase all major items, house, car, furniture, etc.. all in cash prior to retirement which I have done. Since my wife has no intention to coming to the United States, which is great for me since I had planned all along to retire in Thailand. In my heart my only objective was to make a better life for my wife now and a better future for my son. Therefore to get to my point! Owning land was never my objective the real objective was that both of them have something they never had before and that if I died unexpected or the relationship does not work they would be taken care of for the rest of their lives. The investment was small but the joy I have received looking at their faces the day we move in will be remember to the day I died whether it works out or not! My way of thinking is that if a women can put up with me for nearly 9 years she deserves to have the land and car!
But right now knowing her for 9 years has been the best years of my life and our relationship gets better and better.

If it does not work out I'm back at a hotel, or rented Condo and enjoying life. As many of you have expressed like Meaty, walk away, chalk it up to a lesson in life, it's not worth the time or money IMHO, money can be better spent on walking street or Bangkok residing in a womens pussy!

LBM

JuiceSpike
07-23-06, 19:42
LittleBigMan,

Great post. One of the best I have seen in here in a long time. You know exactly what you are doing and why you are doing it.


juices

Nutso
07-24-06, 01:39
I think anyone who purchases property in Thailand should do so expecting that the loophole will some day be closed. Most other countries that have foreign ownership restrictions look at who really controls the company and not purely the shareholding. Doing otherwise greatly reduces the effectiveness of the restriction. And, in fact, the Thai government does look beyond shareholding when it comes to areas that are of a strategic, national or political interest. As part of its development process, there will come a time when the government will be expected to be consistent in the application of law. Fortunately for those of us who own property in Thailand, that time is not here yet and I personally don't expect it anytime in the next decade (to answer Vandelnn's question, I would put it at a maximum of 10% that the government will intervene in the next 10 years, but that percentage is likely to go up over time). But even when that does happen, I expect the government will put in place a mechanism to legitimize current foreign holdings and permit future purchases (perhaps with a heft capital gains tax, etc.)

In the case of real property, the government has an interest in maintaining the status quo. The current system discourages overly aggressive foreign investment (similar to the Japanese spending spree in Hawaii of the 1980s), while continuing to allow the influx of much needed foreign dollars. As such, they are getting the best of both worlds. And, at the moment the Thais are more interested in either stomping out or participating in the corruption to worry about the fact that the government is tacitly permitting foreigners to indirectly own property.

Of course, as Giotto pointed out, Thais Love Thais. In the event of a dispute, the Thais will have a distinct advantage. As such, I only spent as much on my property in Thailand as I was willing to risk losing. The real money went into a condo in Florida, which thanks to the baby boomers, is a much better bet (I plan on selling before the polar caps melt).


[QUOTE=JuiceSpike]

Nutso

Are you currently practicing civil or corporate law or both in Thailand?

- Corporate law is what pays the bills but I spend a lot of time on the civil side helping people out.

The Traveler
07-24-06, 19:29
I have seen homes being build from 1.5 million baht upward to 10 million baht for places in Jometien. Although I could never understand why farangs would build a massion and then sell it a year later and why someone would build or buy a home for 6 million baht, but to each his own.

LBM,

I have done the same thing, I like to cruise around and look for the perfect deal or just want to see what other peoples ideas are.

Judging from my own experiences I guess people do as you say because it's another form of investment - some sort of diversification - with a good return on investment. Prices constantly went up during the last years, like almost everywhere else in the world.

I am currently looking for a nice condo with at least a 100 - 130 sqm. I don't like to stay in a small 40 sqm apartment where bedroom, living room and kitchen are all in one room. I also like to change the room to my taste, which includes raised ceilings, downlights, remote aircon, flat LCD or TFT TV set and other stuff. I am some sort of technie and renting a room that would fit my needs would be more expensive in the long run than buying it. Not to forget the aforesaid diversification and possible gains.

I don't get why people want to live in a small room (even though it is absolutely sufficent), something they would never do in their homecountry.

But as you said, to each it's own.

Good luck for you and your family.

The Traveler
07-24-06, 19:46
Nutso,

I completely agree to what you have said.

Sure, TRT is currently the ruling party, but they get their votes from the rural areas, in the big towns they got a lot of opposition, also from quite influental people.

Things will change, we will see if better or worse.

LittleBigMan
07-25-06, 05:10
The Traveler,

I fully understand where you are coming from about space! some like them big and some like them small! I just don't get those that build and buy large homes and find out the relationship does not work they go to the extreme to think they can make it right and get it back!

My next project is to buy another small piece of land cash, and build 6 Thai style rooming house to rent out. The design will be a western loft style double level with the sleeping quarters upstair, european kitchens and western bath with jucuzzi. From the outside it looks like any other road house which you have seen while traveling outside of Pattaya. You have the best of both worlds you can live the locals and have the comforts of the west!

Is there a market for this?

LBM

The Traveler
07-25-06, 06:53
LBM,

there is a market for it. There are several developments (Casa Espana e.g.) like the one you described in the Pattaya Hill region, some sharing a swimming pool in the back and others having jacuzzis on the terrace/balcony. Check the websites of real estate agents for that region.

LittleBigMan
07-26-06, 00:33
The Traveler,

I have seen these projects. What I'm talking about are the typical or traditional Thai local low income road houses as you are going out on the other side of Sukhumvit all around the Horseshoe bend area. They usually build them 6 in a row with a small area in the front for a bikes or 1 car. They have a open back area for cooking etc.. Many are single level and many now are being build as double level with store fronts.

I started out in one of these and moved up to a double level. If I was single and just wanted a place to crash and kick back with the locals this for myself would be enough. I'm thinking about building 6 of these in a row with two of them Loft style with western furnishing. Small kitchen, western bath with a small jucuzzi tub shower and the other bath standard Thai style stand up shower. From the outside it will look like I'm poor like everyone else but when the door is open WoW! I will rent them out to 2 of my buddies and the others to locals.

Sorry no pool but you can walk to the Pattaya park center for swimming etc..
I think you know the area!

I would like to leave this project for my son for income just in case he turns out to be a bum like his dad!

LBM

The Traveler
07-26-06, 19:02
LBM,

ok, got it.
Yep, I know this area very well. A friend of mine used to stay at Soi Nern Plabwan not far from the railway and I just had a look again at all the constructions and villages in that area during my last trip.

I don't know about the current rents for townhouses, some time ago it was about 4000-7000 per month, depending on location and setting. If you put basic furniture in the rooms you might be able to ask for a bit more but don't expect too much. Don't expect to make a living out of it.

LittleBigMan
07-27-06, 01:52
T.T.

Oh no! I could never buy or live in the Soi Nern Plabwan area. It is so conjested! mainly this is the heart of where the Muslims live though I see lots of farang in this area living. The homes are butted right up against each other and no pork to be sold!

I'm basically further down on the otherside going towards Siam country club and towards the otherside of the Reservior. Not looking to make a living! I figure I could rent 2 of the Western Style to my buddies for 7,000 each and the other 4 units to Thai locals which are are basic studio rooms with outside cooking for the current market of 2500 baht. I figure in 4 to 5 years with the rents I would get my return back and thereafter it would be income for my wife and son if something happens to me!

I figure if she gets tired of my ass I will live in one of the Western units with my buddy or kick him out and turn it into a Thai Animal house.

LBM

The Traveler
07-27-06, 19:14
LBM,

I knew which area you were talking about, Soi Nerb Plabwan was just an example. I was rather referring to the whole East Pattaya region. The Butterfly Bar won't be too far from your place as well :)

One problem which may arise with townhouses or houses in general is water. During dry season there might be no public water supply. At condos the management is taking care of it. Either big watertanks or a pump is needed. I assume that you may be able to pump up your water in the Mabprachan area, but close to Soi Siam Club it might be a problem.

Seems you are a very caring guy and already think about the future of you wife and son. Very nice.

Sounds like you intend to register the land in your wife's name. If not, ask Juice, maybe he will tell you about his top secret super sophisticated bussinesses he refused to tell me about.

Don't eat too much pork, it can cause gout, but I have to admit that "muh tord" is one of my favourite.

LittleBigMan
07-30-06, 21:56
TT,

Thanks for the compliment. I'm just a average Joe trying to do the right thing and taking care of my responsibility. Been through a lot the last 20 years and if I knew I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself ( just joking )! Life is simple and good and when I look around I have so much more than I ever thought possible.

Concerning the land and house that was purchased in May, I didn't not care whether my name was on the title or not it was always my plan for her and my son to have it. So that's exactly what happen when I purchased it in May, the title shows her and my son name on it.
Recently she put my name on it so that if something happens to her the family wouldn't be able to move in and take over. Not exactly sure what happened but that was done by my brother who is retired and living in the same area with his family.

Concerning water I know exactly what you are talking about. I have been without water many times and have done the cold scooping Thai style many times. My new home has 2 stainless tanks 1250 each backup and my wife tells me all the time good idea!

My plans if I make this happen is to have a small back up tank in each unit, water capture from the rain gutters.

LBM

The Traveler
07-30-06, 22:19
LBM;

capture water from the rain gutters won't help much during dry season.
When I owned a townhouse I connected my underground tank to the public water supply by using a valve. This valve was nothing more than a plastic ball attached to a rod which will close the valve when the ball comes up due to rising water level, just like in a toilet tank. The automatic pump took the water out of the tank. This way you have a buffer which will fill up automatically as soon as there is some water in the pipe.

I have been lucky that my neighbour - who was a friend of mine - got a well, so I could switch to the well to fill my tank in case there was no water in the pipes for several days.

LittleBigMan
07-31-06, 19:46
TT,

Thanks for the tip! Based on the size of the tank I plan to put in for each unit that would make perfect sense. You learn something new everyday!

LBM

Happy Guru
08-05-06, 11:58
Hey guys,

{Ok, I'll try to sum this up in as many words as possible. I hope those of you farangs whom live in Thailand can help me out with this one. }

I'm a Canadian, enjoying my life in Korea as an English teacher. I just came back from a week long vacation In Bangkok and Samui. This was my second trip to Thailand and I just wanted to get loose, drink, and have sex like any other guy who comes here. However, the unexpected happened, I fell for a beautiful Thai girl who "seems" to be different from the others.

Basically, I arrived late night Saturday and decided to hit the club scene at around 1: 00am. I met this particular girl at a bar in Patpong where she was dancing with her sister and friends aside. She smiled at me, we talked for an hour or two, I asked her if she was "working". (hooking) and she said "no. " She gave me her number and told me that she would love to show me all the sights in Bangkok the next day because I looked sincere. Later, she left the club with her friend because they had a party to attend to and, get this, her sister was free and wanted to take me to another club where they play music after closing hours. I went with her sister and we had a good time. No, I didn't hit on the sister because I liked the other one (the one I fell for).

So, the next day I called this Thai girl and from there on we hit it off; she showed me around town all day with very kind mannerism, not flirtatious at all. We talked about life and, of course, at the end of the day she came to my hotel. AT NO POINT WAS MONEY EVER DISCUSSED. From there on I found out that she works as a hostess in one of those Korean/Japanese Karaoke places. I felt she was honest, telling me about her life and line of work; no surprise, really. Then, we had sex, twice. She blew me away. No pun intended. In the morning I had to leave for Koh Samui, but told her that I will be back in Bangkok to see her again because I liked her so much.

So, this is what puzzles me. SHE didn't WANT MONEY! That's right, in the morning before I left for the airport, I handed her 2, 000 Baht which I thought was reasonable for one night. She didn't want to take it.

. Furthermore, I came back 4 days later to see her again. Same thing, we spent time together, talked, and had sex twice again, but she let me know that I should forget about her because of her line of work and because I'm from Canada and she likes Thailand; so, there's no time and no point for a real relationship. I thought that was the smartest thing I ever heard a girl say, especially a Thai girl who can make an easy 2, 000 or more in one night.

So, WHAT'S GOING ON GUYS? WHY WOULD SHE SPEND TIME WITH ME AND NOT TAKE ANY MONEY IN THE LEAST? Is this some kind of stint to keep me coming back? .

She even went with me to the airport to say goodbye and didn't take any TAXI money. I don't get it? IS THIS A TRUE THAI ANGEL. No, can't be.

Guys, help me pout here, need advice, should I keep in touch with this girl? You live in Thailand, you know their ways. Please shed some light on this one?

The Guru

JuiceSpike
08-05-06, 17:21
No need to freak out. You are suspecious about her and there must be a reason for it. Mabe you didn't tell us the whole story or maybe she just wanted to have a good time and that's all. Or, maybe she wants you to stay in contact as a friend and then maybe later hit you for money with a "story" she might come with to see if you bite. Or nothing at all will happen.

In the meantime just let things be and follow your instincts...

juices

Phantomtiger2
08-05-06, 19:06
Or it could simply be one or those rare events (not often) but it happens, the 2 of you just hit it off right from the start and she wanted your company. If what you said is indeed correct and she works as a hostess at a Jap place and she is cute, then 2K from you is small change from you anyway. They can make over 10k a nite at those places. So enjoy the moment as you got a nice freebie.

PT

The Traveler
08-05-06, 19:40
Happy Guru,

ask yourself, why are you suspicious ?
Did she do anything or is it just the result of prejudices or certain expectations about her behaviour and intentions that might have been fuelled by reading this forum ?

Thai girls aren't much different from other girls around the world. Maybe she simply likes you for what you are and how you treat her. Enjoy it as long as it lasts and if things should turn nasty bail out and limit your losses.

Happy Guru
08-06-06, 07:06
Traveler,

Of course I'm suspicious. Prejudice/certain expectations. Maybe you are right. Well, if this girl works every night, day in/day out, and meets hundreds of men a year, sucking and fucking for a living, I guess she just wanted to get away from it all with a nice bloke like me.

What gets me is that she was so enthusiastic and responsive before, during, and after sex. I'm not complaining about it, I loved it. Maybe she's a nympho. I don't know. I guess I got lucky like you guys said. However, if she could make 10K a night for Hostessing, why the hell would she be sharing an apartment with her friend where she pays 5k/month. At least, that's what she told me. She also sends money to her family in Chiang Mai. So, I'm puzzled why she wouldn't accept my "small change" 2, 000BHT if she knew it could help them out. I can't imagine her being humble about it just because she "liked" me. So, ya, I guess I have a suspicious mind.

Anyway, I know I'm blowing it out of proportion here, but I just didn't feel this way with all the other Thai girls and Korean girls which are sort of, well, bland actresses in bed.

I'm asking you guys for advice (especially the ones married to Thai girls) because if it happens all the time then I just wanna forget about this angel.

However, if it is a rare cosmic event, I would seriously consider sponsoring this girl to Canada and see what happens. She told me that she doesn't travel abroad, especially America, because it's difficult to get a VISA for a Thai girl.

Ya, I know what you guys are thinking. Nuts, eh? . Probably in LUST.

Asia has turned my life upside down. I can't bear to look at Western women anymore; nothing exotic and special about them, even the blonde porno bombshells.

Well, thanks guys.

Happy G.

Retired Army
08-06-06, 07:49
Hey guys,

I fell for a beautiful Thai girl who "seems" to be different from the others.

So, this is what puzzles me. SHE didn't WANT MONEY! That's right, in the morning before I left for the airport, I handed her 2, 000 Baht which I thought was reasonable for one night. She didn't want to take it.

So, WHAT'S GOING ON GUYS? WHY WOULD SHE SPEND TIME WITH ME AND NOT TAKE ANY MONEY IN THE LEAST? Is this some kind of stint to keep me coming back? .

IS THIS A TRUE THAI ANGEL.

Guys, help me pout here, need advice, should I keep in touch with this girl? You live in Thailand, you know their ways. Please shed some light on this one?

The Guru

What's the first thing a "sucker says after he has been "fleeced." "She seemed different from the rest."

As for the money, these girls are smart. They know that 2,000 THB is chump change to you. Why settle for a one time payment when, if they play it smart, they can get a steady income stream.

IF IT SEEMS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY IS!


I know I take a cynical view; but, believe me, I have seen things you wouldn't believe. If experience is the best teacher, then I am a PHD.

Member #3409
08-06-06, 11:17
Guru, like others have said just be a little careful. If you keep your eyes open you wont get into too much trouble, but shut em and you could fall.

Just something that I learnt the hard way with money and Thai bargirls is many of them don't see themselves as prostitutes. Why it has me buggered, but that is what I've found. They will make out that you giving them money is a gift and not payment for services, so I've found they don't like discussing price (hence the up to you line) and they really don't like being given money in public (like at the airport). I've also found they often don't like it being given to them directly in private, they want you to put it discretly in their bag.

A girl I spent some time with always thought I paid her too little, but would not tell me and for some reason still kept on going with me, knowing full well what I was going to give. Once she got a friend to make a suggestion that I should give a gift (expensive) as a sign of good faith to make things up. They really think in a different and some might say strange way.

With your girl I've experianced something similar too in that the girl didn't want payment, but the question is did you pay for all the drinks/food for her and her friends for the night? Sometimes that may be considered payment in itself.

Have fun, be careful and if it turns to shit bail out.

Retired Army
08-06-06, 11:46
... they really don't like being given money in public (like at the airport). I've also found they often don't like it being given to them directly in private, they want you to put it discretly in their bag.




This is true. Even my GF doesn't like me giving her money in public. She is afraid others will think she is a prostitute when seen receiving money from a farang.

Good point on putting money in her bag. When I was active in the mongering scene I would fold the money up and slip it in the girl's bag, telling her it was taxi money. They seemed to appreciate the consideration. But then again, the kinds of girls I dated were not bar girls. But I think that any woman would appreciate a little thougtfullness.

Thaid Up
08-08-06, 12:44
HG the best advice I can give is wait until mid-Jan, then go ice fishing. Dig one of those holes in the ice, then remove all your clothes and jump in the ice water for about 30 seconds. That should be enough for you to snap out of it.

Seriously, I would just enjoy the experience when you are here. As she told you herself she would not want to move out of Thailand. Most Thai's do not travel well for various reasons.

If you were coming to stay in Thailand, then that would be a different story.

One tall tale that she told you that she was making 10K THB a night. Even the best of the best are not making close to 300K THB a month. On that kind of money she should be driving you to the airport.

Advice of someone living in Thailand. Keep in touch and enjoy time with her when you are in Thailand. Don't think about advancing this relationship any further unless you plan to move to Thailand.

Happy Guru
08-08-06, 17:34
Thaid UP,

..(Ice fishing??)..HA HA HA..sounds like a good idea. I'm sure it would work, too.

Retired Army,

"If it's too good to be true, it probably is.."

(How could i forget about that possibility?)

Jc373,

She's not a Bargirl..and, I never gave her money in Public. I offered her the small change in the Hotel room. Nevertheless, i did pay for dinner and a round of drinks for her, her sister, and friends, which cost me a mere 1000 BHT in total. What a joke; it's peanuts...Plus, while I was in Koh Samui, I bought her and her sister a necklace. I think she appreciated that "gift". It earned me bonus points.

Regardless, I guess I'm letting my emotions..(and a great CIM with rolling eyes from her..) get the best of me.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, guys. I never thought about that "hide the money in purse" idea. Most Thai girls want the money up front or don't give a shit about feeling like a prostie when the deed is done and you hand them cash...That's why I wrote to you gents for advice. I'm not sure about Thai mentality and this girl was surely different from the others.

You guys have it made if you live in Thailand...ohh, man.

I wish there was a lucrative market for ESL teachers..Unfortunately, they pay shit compared to Korea or Japan..

No problems, just ride the wave out.

The Guru

Dinghy
08-08-06, 18:00
Guru - think about this - have you ever heard of chumming fish? You throw some food over the side and feed the fish. Wait a while and then throw over a baited hook. You are in "chum" stage - the "hook" is coming, just wait...

1Ball
08-08-06, 18:30
Asia has turned my life upside down. I can't bear to look at Western women anymore; nothing exotic and special about them, even the blonde porno bombshells.

Happy G.
Ha Ha Ha. Welcome to the club. Do you have any idea how many men feel the same way? I have not had a caucasian woman in my bed for over 15 years, and if all goes according to plan, will never again!

Brain666
08-11-06, 17:29
I just dropped some reports about 7-8 days in Bangkok in the Bangkok section
Part 1: http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=494717&postcount=1121
Part 2: http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=494720&postcount=1122

and wanted to add a special chapter here about my first week and impression with Thai girls from the p4p scene:

I can only say: Thai girls are great.
This was my first experience in Thailand even if I am already in the ‘second half of the middle aged’ visitors. Mongering wise I am quite some experienced and I come around in the world, mostly for business. I prefer to add some erotic toppings when the business is finished and if occasion is there. Not a must for hunt, but opportunities are taken.

Ok, I consider myself a nice Guy lets say, at least I am one to pay attention to girls and its always my method to give something first, as it is my experience that you could get it multiple times back.
I didn’t have any bad experience from Freelancers and GoGo Girls (which are sometimes criticized here). All girls without exception liked me and not only because of a potential sugar daddy effect. Probably I paid sometimes 500 Baht too much, which would sum up to a 4000 Total for the whole vacation.

The most impressive for me was the rather diverse provider scene with is probably unique in the world. I almost can’t see the difference between P4P and self enjoyment here in Thailand. There is a absolutely fluent zone between real freebees, who just enjoying sex by themselves and various mixes of temporary, frequent and real professional providers, but all combined with some own fun. Most of the girls enjoy themselves by what they are doing (at least it turned out so with me). There was pussy juice flowing as I have never experienced in any P4P scene when making love. No ‘lubrication’ required as it happens everywhere else in the worlds P4P scenes.
So it doesn’t look and you don’t feel like paying for sex. It’s like you give your girlfriend or wife sometimes some ‘household’ money or birthday present. And the same feels many Thai girls obviously. I was quickly integrated in some more friends activity from some of the girls. The zone between p4p and friendship is very fluent as well.

(To be honest: Didn’t we all have in previous time, as teenager or later with girlfriends and sometimes wifes great sex rounds and didn’t we probably like to spend more money in a extra present or extra something, if we felt especially sexually lucky and enjoyed with our ‘western girls’? Wasn’t money flowing more fluently when sexually lucky. Wasn’t this at the end also a kind of ‘compensation’ we unconsciously gave our partners?)

I can now understand some of the guys here who fall for the girls. What I laughed about before, I can now understand and I don’t damn it. I say rather why no, if you like. But don’t get me wrong, I will not fall for it myself, but somehow you need to keep yourself under control of course.
I can understand older guys now who marry Thai girls late, maybe after divorce or after her first wife died. Let them be lucky. If the Thai girl gets some money later its ok, she probably provided better life to the old fellow as some of the eager relatives also only waiting for money themselves.
My miss O (see report) e.g. would be a perfect candidate for that. Intelligent, temporary provider, but nice gentle, supportive and enjoys sex herself, and the family already has marriages to German guys for more then 7 years. A really nice girl. She would be a great partner.

The GoGo girls: Both my GoGo girls have been a great experience, very energetic and both enjoyed as well what they did. Sometimes it is written that they tend to go short time only, but my wildcat Miss S didn’t want to leave before 16:00h. Ok 2 samples only, but great samples, probably because not tooo cheap?

One thing which I could here out of the girls and probably already written her: Among some of us fellow mongers, especially the below 30 ones, but also others: There are guys only trying to make boom boom, getting as much shot and as much stroke per baht (<< less then 1 baht per stroke?). They are not liked by the girls. They prefer the middle aged to older crowd as being more gentle. That’s what I got to her without asking several times.

What I want to tell here: Yes you can do more boom boom by that. But you do yourself. If you take more attention to the girl, you yourself will be ‘boom boomed’ and that is much more fun!

But that is probably written already many times here. Anyhow take it as my expression of enjoyment and I would like you to participate in the same way:
Don’t boom boom, let you boom boom, by just being e little gentle and giving this girls some attention.

I am back to my more realistic, upscale, but clearly les enjoyable Seoul already, but for sure will come back more often from now. The Thai scenery us unbeatable.

And I will have in mind whatever happens in Age: There is always an option now!
Great girls are around here.
I envoy you guys living here

An impressed

Brain666

(but not fell for love as some of my fellow mongers returning to Seoul)

FreakFunk
08-13-06, 17:47
Hi there

Im just looking for some advice about a thai girl i see quite regulary when im in bangkok. Around 3 months this year i've stayed with the girl 1 month at a time with her in her apartment and she's talking about getting a visa to come to the UK. She's open about other customers etc however she tells me she needs 20'000 baht going into her account every month as a regular income is something they look for. Does anyone have any experience of this?

FreakFunk
08-13-06, 17:50
However i would add to that on more than one occasion while drinking in gogo bars girls have took me back to their apartment free of charge, for boom boom, and i've never asked to do that. i got the impression they were desperate for a proper bf their own age to live with in another country, does anyone else have experience of this?


I just dropped some reports about 7-8 days in Bangkok in the Bangkok section
Part 1: http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=494717&postcount=1121
Part 2: http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=494720&postcount=1122

and wanted to add a special chapter here about my first week and impression with Thai girls from the p4p scene:

I can only say: Thai girls are great.
This was my first experience in Thailand even if I am already in the ‘second half of the middle aged’ visitors. Mongering wise I am quite some experienced and I come around in the world, mostly for business. I prefer to add some erotic toppings when the business is finished and if occasion is there. Not a must for hunt, but opportunities are taken.

Ok, I consider myself a nice Guy lets say, at least I am one to pay attention to girls and its always my method to give something first, as it is my experience that you could get it multiple times back.
I didn’t have any bad experience from Freelancers and GoGo Girls (which are sometimes criticized here). All girls without exception liked me and not only because of a potential sugar daddy effect. Probably I paid sometimes 500 Baht too much, which would sum up to a 4000 Total for the whole vacation.

The most impressive for me was the rather diverse provider scene with is probably unique in the world. I almost can’t see the difference between P4P and self enjoyment here in Thailand. There is a absolutely fluent zone between real freebees, who just enjoying sex by themselves and various mixes of temporary, frequent and real professional providers, but all combined with some own fun. Most of the girls enjoy themselves by what they are doing (at least it turned out so with me). There was pussy juice flowing as I have never experienced in any P4P scene when making love. No ‘lubrication’ required as it happens everywhere else in the worlds P4P scenes.
So it doesn’t look and you don’t feel like paying for sex. It’s like you give your girlfriend or wife sometimes some ‘household’ money or birthday present. And the same feels many Thai girls obviously. I was quickly integrated in some more friends activity from some of the girls. The zone between p4p and friendship is very fluent as well.

(To be honest: Didn’t we all have in previous time, as teenager or later with girlfriends and sometimes wifes great sex rounds and didn’t we probably like to spend more money in a extra present or extra something, if we felt especially sexually lucky and enjoyed with our ‘western girls’? Wasn’t money flowing more fluently when sexually lucky. Wasn’t this at the end also a kind of ‘compensation’ we unconsciously gave our partners?)

I can now understand some of the guys here who fall for the girls. What I laughed about before, I can now understand and I don’t damn it. I say rather why no, if you like. But don’t get me wrong, I will not fall for it myself, but somehow you need to keep yourself under control of course.
I can understand older guys now who marry Thai girls late, maybe after divorce or after her first wife died. Let them be lucky. If the Thai girl gets some money later its ok, she probably provided better life to the old fellow as some of the eager relatives also only waiting for money themselves.
My miss O (see report) e.g. would be a perfect candidate for that. Intelligent, temporary provider, but nice gentle, supportive and enjoys sex herself, and the family already has marriages to German guys for more then 7 years. A really nice girl. She would be a great partner.

The GoGo girls: Both my GoGo girls have been a great experience, very energetic and both enjoyed as well what they did. Sometimes it is written that they tend to go short time only, but my wildcat Miss S didn’t want to leave before 16:00h. Ok 2 samples only, but great samples, probably because not tooo cheap?

One thing which I could here out of the girls and probably already written her: Among some of us fellow mongers, especially the below 30 ones, but also others: There are guys only trying to make boom boom, getting as much shot and as much stroke per baht (<< less then 1 baht per stroke?). They are not liked by the girls. They prefer the middle aged to older crowd as being more gentle. That’s what I got to her without asking several times.

What I want to tell here: Yes you can do more boom boom by that. But you do yourself. If you take more attention to the girl, you yourself will be ‘boom boomed’ and that is much more fun!

But that is probably written already many times here. Anyhow take it as my expression of enjoyment and I would like you to participate in the same way:
Don’t boom boom, let you boom boom, by just being e little gentle and giving this girls some attention.

I am back to my more realistic, upscale, but clearly les enjoyable Seoul already, but for sure will come back more often from now. The Thai scenery us unbeatable.

And I will have in mind whatever happens in Age: There is always an option now!
Great girls are around here.
I envoy you guys living here

An impressed

Brain666

(but not fell for love as some of my fellow mongers returning to Seoul)

Retired Army
08-13-06, 19:17
Hi there

Im just looking for some advice about a thai girl i see quite regulary when im in bangkok. Around 3 months this year i've stayed with the girl 1 month at a time with her in her apartment and she's talking about getting a visa to come to the UK. She's open about other customers etc however she tells me she needs 20'000 baht going into her account every month as a regular income is something they look for. Does anyone have any experience of this?

My Thai GF doesn't even have a bank account and I have no trouble getting her visas. I just sign a statement that she is totally dependent upon me and I provide all her monetary support.

Terry Terrier
08-13-06, 19:41
FreakFunk,

1) If you decide to go down the visa route, this is as good a start as any:

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1065714374894

2) Your relationship with this girl probably started as a money-based one. It will be nigh on impossible to build a solid foundation for a lasting relationship if you keep the money aspect to the fore. If you want a real relationship you have to take money out of the mix for a while. Be strong and ignore the sweet-talk and sob-stories. If she loves you the relationship will weather the storms, but if she doesn't you will have escaped a nightmare (RTF and other sites for the stories of those who haven't).

The Traveler
08-13-06, 23:20
FreakFunk,

20.000 is definitely too much, most office workers earn around 10.000 baht a month.

The Traveler
08-13-06, 23:22
Retired Army,

for which country do you get visas for her ?
Anyway, only the first visa is hard to get, all subsequent visas are easy.

Retired Army
08-14-06, 06:43
Retired Army,

for which country do you get visas for her ?
Anyway, only the first visa is hard to get, all subsequent visas are easy.

Australian Visas, UK and Schengen Visas for the EU. And that is a very good point about the first visa. My native country, the U.S., turned us down the first time which made it hard to get the next visa which was for Australia. But once we got that one all the rest were easy. Anyway, we decided we didn't want to go to the U.S. anymore, especially with all this carry-on luggage restriction Bullshit.

Retired Army
08-14-06, 06:52
Another thing I just remembered: Having money going into a Thai bank Account is only half of the battle. The Embassies are also going to want to see some kind of documentation as to where the money came from, i.e., a pay voucher, etc. Just having a steady income stream isn't going to cut it. They will just assume that she is a prostitute.

My GF and I ran into this problem when I tried to get her her first visa. Even though she owned her own business, her own home and had a good income, she didn't have the tax documents to prove her case. That is one of the reasons why the U.S. refused her. The other was because of the Thai mafia that controls the U.S. Embassy's visa section.

Brain666
08-14-06, 12:45
FreakFunk,

20.000 is definitely too much, most office workers earn around 10.000 baht a month.
What is wrong with this calculation. If she is in busines so far and she gets 2000 each 3 days or 1000 in 20 days, which is not unrealistic, if FreakFunk picked a good looking Thai, then the 20.000 is probably even a loss for her.
She has adopted her life to that and especially the poor relatives supported by her have adopted to the money flow she provides so far.
So her calculation is probably the minimum she needs if not to loose her face.

If she agrees to half, then she probably really is serious about FreakFunk, but the risk to make 'hidden' money is much higer, as well the pressure from the relatives.

regards
Brain666

Terry Terrier
08-14-06, 19:13
the 20.000 is probably even a loss for her.

Why is it a loss? She will almost certainly carry on working as long as she is in Thailand and when FreakFunk is in the UK.

Brain666
08-15-06, 01:33
Why is it a loss? She will almost certainly carry on working as long as she is in Thailand and when FreakFunk is in the UK.
Of course if she carries on working its not a loss, its additional.

It's a potential loss if she would really stop working, which I doubt as well.

Regdrs
Brain666

Bkk Men
08-15-06, 04:58
Hey guys,

So, WHAT'S GOING ON GUYS? WHY WOULD SHE SPEND TIME WITH ME AND NOT TAKE ANY MONEY IN THE LEAST? Is this some kind of stint to keep me coming back? .

Guys, help me pout here, need advice, should I keep in touch with this girl? You live in Thailand, you know their ways. Please shed some light on this one?

The GuruHi guru,

thai girl need 5 things. Money. Sex. Handsome guy. Good men and secure

Normally secure it will be the last one for most of them, she tell you all the true thing hope you can accept hope you will get stuck on her and be her long term supporter. Enjoy

The Traveler
08-15-06, 19:08
What is wrong with this calculation. If she is in busines so far and she gets 2000 each 3 days or 1000 in 20 days, which is not unrealistic, if FreakFunk picked a good looking Thai, then the 20.000 is probably even a loss for her.
She has adopted her life to that and especially the poor relatives supported by her have adopted to the money flow she provides so far.
So her calculation is probably the minimum she needs if not to loose her face.

If she agrees to half, then she probably really is serious about FreakFunk, but the risk to make 'hidden' money is much higer, as well the pressure from the relatives.

regards
Brain666
Brain666,

he said that she needs that amount on a monthly basis to get a visa. I was only referring to that issue.
It's up to him if he wants to give her more for whatever reason, but he asked if she really needs such an amount for a visa application.
The answer is NO.

The Traveler
08-15-06, 19:20
...Having money going into a Thai bank Account is only half of the battle. The Embassies are also going to want to see some kind of documentation as to where the money came from ...

Retired Army,

yep, correct.
The embassy doesn't just want to see regular inpayments, they also request a work contract, letter of employment and permission of leave, social security card, trade/business licence, tax documents i.e.

See my post regarding Schengen visa for complete requirements
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=476096



And that is a very good point about the first visa. My native country, the U.S., turned us down the first time which made it hard to get the next visa which was for Australia. But once we got that one all the rest were easy.

The Schengen states, USA, Switzerland, UK, Canada and Australia accept previous visas for above mentioned states as proof for the will of the applicant to return upon expiry of the visa. This is usually the key prob that occurs when applying for a visa. All other issues are easy to solve, just a bit paperwork and a bit money.

FreakFunk
08-16-06, 13:37
The way it works, she earns around 30'000 baht per month, her apartment is 5-6500 baht per month and she sends her family upto 10'000 baht per month. These are only the figures i can guarantee as being correct as i've seen over the time i've lived with her.

Being fair she never really gives me any sob stories asking for money, very occasionally she'll say she needs some money for something, but never that much.

Regardless of that however, im not stupid enough to start sending money to a bargirl who's going to have many bf's, i rather spend that on other ladies for shortime, lol

M P Lurker
08-17-06, 12:47
FreakFunk,
20.000 is definitely too much, most office workers earn around 10.000 baht a month.10000 is Ok for girls who live with their parents.

Otherwise rent, electricity, phone is going to be at least 6000 Baht and more in a reasonable room with Air Con.

That leaves only about 100 Baht a day to eat. Not enough.

What about others they have to help support.

My girlfriend lives in a tiny room with her daughter.

She has to help pay for her fathers medical bills, her younger brother, and her daughters education.

She could barely survive on 20,000 per month.

So it greatly depends on circumstances and standards.

Martians
08-21-06, 18:07
These women can live on an oily rag if they have to. But their philosophy is easy cum easy go. They have no lifeterm plan, most of them, same as the hookers in these videos. The old guy who didn't pay the tough looking hooker is a much braver man than me. At heart, all these women are hookers. Give them $1million and most of them will blow it, and you for a little extra. Pump and dump, shag and shag off is what I say. Here in Liverpool, it must be the cheapest town in Europe for pussy. They make good coin but blow it too. Cum in or on them and then move on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqkybKhvtro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLMwO2STVp0&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdxRfXjvtoo&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqvWMPOMfaQ&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6BoU4QZ5ek&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxoqvw_064c&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX8GvOxv0-Q&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixldvV6x3eQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOCebUTtgw4&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54VOHO1h6dI&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w99V699ziN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21kPEgA-q90

The Traveler
08-22-06, 19:28
10000 is Ok for girls who live with their parents.

Otherwise rent, electricity, phone is going to be at least 6000 Baht and more in a reasonable room with Air Con.

That leaves only about 100 Baht a day to eat. Not enough.

What about others they have to help support.

My girlfriend lives in a tiny room with her daughter.

She has to help pay for her fathers medical bills, her younger brother, and her daughters education.

She could barely survive on 20,000 per month.

So it greatly depends on circumstances and standards.
Mick Licker,

no pun intended but I wonder why some people in here aren't able to see posts in context or don't read posts at all.

Please see my below answer to Brain666, I clearly stated that I was only referring to the visa issue. She doesn't has to show a monthly income of 20.000 to get a visa.

Anybody may support his GF with as much money as he wants. Some can stay on 6.000 baht upcountry, others may not be able to stay on 50.000 per month (at least they tell you). Just like you say, it all depends on circumstances and standards.