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Admin
08-05-13, 22:24
What defines an AO club?

Capt Dan
08-06-13, 00:49
Basically a club where bareback sex is openly offered (I. E. Bareback sex is the norm) and where it is more unusual for a customer to have covered sex. The club may categorise itself as a FKK, Saunaclub, Brothel or something else.

CD

Admin
08-06-13, 01:58
Basically a club where bareback sex is openly offered (I. E. Bareback sex is the norm) and where it is more unusual for a customer to have covered sex. The club may categorise itself as a FKK, Saunaclub, Brothel or something else.

CDDoes the term "AO Club" apply to all other types of clubs?

FKK / AO?

Partytreff / AO?

Sauna Club / AO?

Does that mean we do or do not need a separate forum for "AO Clubs"?

SwingerLover
08-06-13, 19:06
Does that mean we do or do not need a separate forum for "AO Clubs"? Capt Dan's description is correct. ANY AO venue is also either a Saunaclub / FKK-club or a flatrate Partytreff / Pauschalclub / Gangbang-Club or a brothel or a woman at a lake in a forest or in a porn theatre who's getting banged from everyone around.

So, no, we don't need a seperate forum for AO-clubs, except for the one reason that some of the rubber-fans don't like to have AO-threads and AO-reports in the same forum as the rubber-reports.

I wouldn't know how do differenciate. Spermagames is an AO-Gangbang venue with not even a fixed location, doing sporadic parties for a flatrate price. So it's a pure AO venue, like an AO-Partytreff. Same goes for Spermabang, only that it has a fixed location and for Spermastudio, except that it's filmed too. Gangbang01 is pretty much like a combination of the forementioned three. All fit into the Partytreff / Gangbangclubs category, plus AO as an addition.

La Luna Moers and Cleopatra Arena Gelsenkirchen are basically Sauna Clubs, offering AO, and having a few flatrate days. FKK Arabella in Bochum, Dolce Vita in Raubach and FKK Dietzenbach in Dietzenbach are AO FKK Sauna Clubs; so the same as La Luna and CA, only without flatrate days and without any clothes.

I think I differenciated nearly everything there is to categorize on my AO-map: http://goo.gl/maps/Rk0pE

That map is solely for AO venues, but the system with the differently colourd markers might as well be applied to rubber venues. (Pure flatrate, pure P4P, P4P flatrate combinations, locations rented out for flatrate venues, other stuff.) The only thing I didn't put on are regular brothels, working girl's apartments or other non-flatrate venues, because it would be an impossible task to keep THAT updated too.

I already posted the following in the "What defines a Sauna Club?" thread:
...an AO-club doesn't necessarily has to be a Gangbang-club with public action, but a flatrate venue. It's difficult to apply the term "AO-club", because it usually fits into any of the other categories, only with AO as an addition.

So I think a seperate AO-clubs category will be hard to handle. Not everybody does AO at an AO-party. Not necessarily every woman offers AO at all AO-parties. Who is supposed to post where? Do we get an AO Cleopatra Arena thread AND a rubber Cleopatra Arena thread now? Or are all AO venues put into one forum, regardless if they are FKK, Partytreff, Gangbang club or brothel? And then the rubber visitors post there too? Difficult.

Wanking
08-06-13, 19:17
So I think a seperate AO-clubs category will be hard to handle. Not everybody does AO at an AO-party. Not necessarily every woman offers AO at all AO-parties. Who is supposed to post where? Do we get an AO Cleopatra Arena thread AND a rubber Cleopatra Arena thread now? Or are all AO venues put into one forum, regardless if they are FKK, Partytreff, Gangbang club or brothel? And then the rubber visitors post there too? Difficult.I think its better now to have AO away from PT forum, and its unlikely Jackson will change it back. The AO forum should contain clubs where AO is offered even if some rubber activity is also offered. I don't think having some rubbing fucking in an AO club will confuse the situation here too much.

Capt Dan
08-06-13, 20:53
I agree with Wanking. The reality is that the stated policy of most FKK & Sauna clubs is that covered vaginal / anal sex takes place in the room. This is the policy in all of the Mega FKK / Sauna Clubs and most other clubs of this type. Now SwingerLover Is correct in his assertion that it may be possible to negotiate bareback sex in these clubs but it is definitely not the norm, contrary to the stated policy of the club and can possibly get the hooker offering this bareback service into trouble. If you are fresh off the shuttle from New York and you rock up to FKK World for the first time (or any such Mega FKK / Sauna Club) , you have almost zero chance of being offered bareback sex. The service is the norm in a few clubs (including those mentioned in SwingerLovers earlier post). But covered vaginal / anal sex is the norm. If you want to highlight the few clubs where bareback sex is the norm it is best to do so in a seperate thread.

CD

Myrrh
08-06-13, 21:32
Perhaps the most useful and clearest way to categorise clubs is think about how you pay for them. Clubs would then all fall into one of two categories.

1) Non-flat rate: Pay each time you have sex (and usually when you enter as well).

2) Flat rate: Pay a one-off fee. The 'Pay at the door and then pay no more' concept.

All clubs are either one or the other. But not both.

Some clubs are non-flat rate but have occasional flat rate days. That makes them non-flat rate as that is what they normally do.

You can also categorise clubs by what services they provide like AO / non-AO and by club features like Sauna, naked girls, etc. However categorising clubs by features is not clear cut as some clubs may have a combination of features and it is then a matter of debate as to whether it is more of a Sauna club or an FKK, etc.

You can't necessarily go by what the club is called as some clubs may be called an FKK in their name but do not have any naturist girls and so strictly are not FKK.

However a very important distinction for the readers is whether or not the club does AO or not. The last few weeks / months / year in particular has shown that this is a matter of extreme concern for everyone.

Again people will fall into one of two camps and not both.

There are those who definitely want to know whether AO is on offer at a particular club or don't mind if it is. Then there are those who will avoid a club if it is known to offer AO at all. It causes furious and continuing debate and will continue to do so whilst AO clubs are still mixed in with the partytreff and FKK sections.

AO or non-AO is a more important concern for most members than other things like whether a club has a sauna, whether the girls are naked or whether the sex happens in private room or in public, etc.

So we should have an AO section but we should only label a club as AO if it openly advertises AO services (even if only some of the girls do it) like FKK Arabella or if it is generally acknowledged as offering AO services but does not public acknowledge it like Club Angelique. Remember that some clubs will never acknowledge publicly because they don't want to draw unnecessary attention to this still taboo service and prefer to rely on advertising of this service by word of mouth.

We should be careful where one or two individuals are trying to smear a club as an AO club and so should only include a club as AO if it advertises as such or if there have been a few reliable, uncontested reports from members of the forum that AO is happening there on a consistent basis (so that if you go there and ask for it then you will most definitely get it with a girl whatever time you visit or whichever girls happen to be there).

What are the arguments against having a separate AO section? That there are some clubs which may only offer AO on some days or with some of the girls and that other than that it offers a very good safe sex service. Therefore someone who likes safe sex may miss out on this club because it is hidden away in the AO section. Well for the AO section we should make clear that the clubs that are included in this section only because AO sex is available but not necessarily all that they offer.

I definitely think AO clubs should be given a section to themselves and then there should be also sections for flat rate and non-flat rate.

So three sections – AO (specialist interest section) , flat rate and non-flat rate.

At present the flat rate and non-flat rate sections are mis-labelled as partytreff and FKK respectively.

Within the flat rate section you could then have sub-sections for gangbang, partytreff, pauschal clubs, swinger, etc since these clubs all charge a flat rate by definition. Within the non-flat rate section then you can sub-section into FKK, sauna clubs, brothels since at these clubs you traditionally get charged extra each time you have sex.

If there are any anomalies like some sauna clubs which are flat rate then you can open up a sauna sub-section in the flat rate section.

Within the AO section you could sub-section into flat rate or non-flat rate and then further sub-section accordingly but I wouldn't bother because for most people who seek AO the fact that a club offers AO is the overriding factor. Everything else comes a distant second.

The number of AO clubs is sufficiently small at present that it is not a difficult task for someone who is interested in sauna clubs for example, and who has already looked through the non-AO sections, to look through the threads for the AO section to find any additional sauna clubs.

The AO section should just be seen as a special interest section for clubs that should normally belong in the flat rate or non-flat rate sections. However because they are such special interest they warrant a completely separate section of their own. The alternative would be for the AO seekers to spend their time trawling through the partytreff, swinger, FKK, sauna club sections just to find the particular specialist activity they are seeking. Also for those against AO to get upset when they come across a club say in the FKK section which has chat about AO activities.

If other specialist services emerge in future then we can create them and move clubs which offer this specialist service out of the flat rate / non-flat rate sections and into the particular specialist service section.

As far as regional classification is concerned like Berlin, Germany, etc. I think that we should get rid of these regional threads and move reports from these threads into the flat rate / non-flat rate and AO sections. There could then just be one regional thread called 'Germany index' for example which would list every club in Germany and then categorise them into what region / city they belong to. Next to each club you could have what section it belonged to so that people could go there.

For example:

Moers

Club La Luna (AO)

Lippkick (Flat rate, swinger)

Golden Time (non-flat rate, sauna)

Berlin

XYZ club (non-flat rate, FKK)

Erhlingsbwong (flat rate, gangbang)

The problem with having threads by both type of service and by region is that you can have the same club appearing in both a regional and type of service thread and so splitting the amount of information on a club instead of it being held in one place.

If you think about the fact that this is an international sex guide and not a regional one then classification of clubs by type of service is much more important than what region it is in Germany. For most of the readers of the Germany thread will be from the UK, Sweden, France, etc. It does not make much difference to them whether they fly into Berlin or Dusseldorf. For example for AO lovers if they know that there are three AO clubs near Dusseldorf then they will fly to that city.

In any case the 'index' thread would allow people who find themselves in Stuttgart on business for example to do research in the individual threads that the index sends them to.

SwingerLover
08-06-13, 22:22
Perhaps the most useful and clearest way to categorise clubs is think about how you pay for them. Clubs would then all fall into one of two categories.

1) Non-flat rate: Pay each time you have sex (and usually when you enter as well).

2) Flat rate: Pay a one-off fee. The 'Pay at the door and then pay no more' concept.That's what I wrote too and it's IMO the most important element to distinguish between an FKK / Sauna Club and a Partytreff / Pauschalclub / Gangbangclub.


We should be careful where one or two individuals are trying to smear a club as an AO club and so should only include a club as AO if it advertises as such or if there have been a few reliable, uncontested reports from members of the forum that AO is happening there on a consistent basis (so that if you go there and ask for it then you will most definitely get it with a girl whatever time you visit or whichever girls happen to be there).Among the places that are not advertising AO openly, but where it still happens on a consistent basis are definitely "Club" Angelique in Viersen and Eves Diamonds (former Eva-Freundin, former-former Club Tabulos) in Mönchengladbach-Odenkirchen. Even though Eves is more like an apartment brothel with occasional flatrate events nowdays, it would still be best off in the AO Clubs thread and the existing thread could easily be transferred. As for Angelique: I think for those very few reports that have been on here until now, the regular Bareback AO thread will do just nicely. If the place gets reported on more frequently, then a seperate thread can be started in the AO clubs forum, even though it's not a real club.


I definitely think AO clubs should be given a section to themselves and then there should be also sections for flat rate and non-flat rate.

So three sections – AO (specialist interest section) , flat rate and non-flat rate.

At present the flat rate and non-flat rate sections are mis-labelled as partytreff and FKK respectively.

So three sections – AO (specialist interest section) , flat rate and non-flat rate.I think this would be over-categorizing and impractical, since it would propably mean to have a Flatrate AO Clubs forum and a Non-Flatrate AO Clubs forum. Then we might also need an AO brothels forum and an AO street workers forum and Jackson would show us the middle finger. And rightfully so.


As far as regional classification is concerned like Berlin, Germany, etc. I think that we should get rid of these regional threads and move reports from these threads into the flat rate / non-flat rate and AO sections.Are you referring to the regular Germany forum here? That should remain as it is IMO, because there's a lot in there regarding escorts, streetworkers, fuck boxes and such, which would be impractical to categorize.

Capt Dan
08-06-13, 23:15
I think it best if we help out with the explanation of the different club types and vote as to what type / category each club belongs.

I am sure that Jackson (allowing for whatever limitations are imposed by the structure of the ISG Forum) will then come up with the correct categories that he requires for the ISG Germany / FKK / Partytreff Section.

Myrrh
08-06-13, 23:38
As for Angelique: I think for those very few reports that have been on here until now, the regular Bareback AO thread will do just nicely. If the place gets reported on more frequently, then a seperate thread can be started in the AO clubs forum, even though it's not a real club.Why have a regular bareback AO thread and a separate thread in the AO clubs forum? It seems clear that putting all AO related threads into one AO forum should be the way to go. That way it is a one-stop-shop for anyone wanting to find out about AO in Germany. I thought that you, the no. 1 afficionado of AO / bareback on this board, at least would be in favour of that?


I think this would be over-categorizing and impractical, since it would propably mean to have a Flatrate AO Clubs forum and a Non-Flatrate AO Clubs forum. Then we might also need an AO brothels forum and an AO street workers forum and Jackson would show us the middle finger. And rightfully so.I think you misread what I said as my view is that it is best just to have one AO sub-forum and dump all AO (threads / clubs / FKK / sauna / swinger / etc) into this one forum. As I said most AO fans only care that a place is AO rather than whether it is a sauna, FKK, swinger club, etc.


Are you referring to the regular Germany forum here? That should remain as it is IMO, because there's a lot in there regarding escorts, streetworkers, fuck boxes and such, which would be impractical to categorize.Currently you have loads of clubs being discussed in the Germany forum under different threads there and then the same clubs being discussed also in their own separate threads in the FKK and Partytreff sections. This means that you need to search twice in different parts of the forum in order to be sure that you have got all of the relevant information for a particular club that you are interested in. This is inefficient and has got to stop.

You either divide everything geographically / regionally (Stuttgart, Berlin, Dusseldorf) or you divide by type of place (flat rate club, non-flat rate club, street walkers, cinemas (kinos) , etc.). Doing both at the same time only leads to duplication.

My idea was to divide everything functionally into sub-forums for flat rate clubs, non-flat rate clubs, street walkers, kinos, etc. Because people will first of all work out what they like and then look to find out in which part of Germany to find it.

You could still have the regional sub-forums but these would just be indexes listing threads for clubs, streetwalkers, etc that relate to the particular city or region. You would go to the 'functional' forums and threads to find out the detail.

SwingerLover
08-07-13, 00:00
Why have a regular bareback AO thread and a separate thread in the AO clubs forum?I think here you misunderstood me. I was referring to the regular Bareback AO thread that already exists and was propably the first AO thread at all.


I think you misread what I said as my view is that it is best just to have one AO sub-forum and dump all AO (threads / clubs / FKK / sauna / swinger / etc) into this one forum.Yes, I propably misread. If at all, there should be ONE Germany AO forum, which contains all the AO-threads. But I'm not sure if it is possible to sub-categorize this AO-forum into anything other that "Main Forum Threads" and "User Threads" as it is with the other forums.


Because people will first of all work out what they like and then look to find out in which part of Germany to find it.That's true for people who plan a trip and travel longer distances, isually using airplanes.

It's not necessarily true for people that are already in the area (maybe on a business trip) or live closeby (like the Dutch and Flemish guys I constantly meet in NRW). They are better off with a forum which has threads on different cities or regions.

MrLowKey
08-07-13, 12:41
From my point of view who live outside Germany and fly there and am only interested in AO-activities I would very much like a separate AO-thread so I do not have to spend time on going through / getting confused by other PT-threads as have somewhat bit the case until now.

Since there are not that many "active" AO-threads all in all there is not of big importance how the subcategories of the AO-thread would be from my point of view. Maybe I would prefer to have it geographically organised, but I can also understand that people that live closer have other preferences.

Woofiee
08-08-13, 15:56
I'm speaking specifically about:

* Fkk Arabella / Villa Venus / Sauna Grimberg. NRW AO Clubs.

* Dolce Vita- Raubach.

A case could be made for Bernds, but that'll just cause a war.

As what you actually get at an AO club seems to change all the time (read a few threads about how AO events suddenly became covered, lack of girls on the day, etc) instead of defining it as "AO on offer", I'd define it as "AO available". To say that AO is available everywhere and with everyone is patently false (I know of a few Dutch guys who were asked to leave because of AO requests at Bochum, for example) and misdirect the point of AO.

Anyway the two above don't belong in the non-AO threads anymore

SwingerLover
08-08-13, 19:57
(I know of a few Dutch guys who were asked to leave because of AO requests at Bochum, for example)I suppose that place in Bochum was "Anja's Leidenschaften"? If so, then let's get it straight that that never was an AO-club, nor is it now! They are the ones bragging on their website about having kicked people out just for ASKING about AO (even though AO was never offered there in the first place). A simple "no" would have sufficed instead.

What also needs to be moved to the AO-clubs thread is the pointless and now closed "AOclubs: Angelique, Arabela, Bernds, Dietzenbach, DVRausbac, Grimberg, LaLuna, Vvenus" thread (IMO that one could be deleted completely.) and the FKK Dietzenbach thread, since that is an AO place now. Or the Dietzenbach thread should be closed and a new one started in the AO-clubs thread.

As for Bernds Schieferhof: Well, if AO happens there so often that it gets constantly reported about, then the thread should be moved to the AO-clubs thread as well. Otherwise there wouldn't be any point of moving any of the other threads. If AO-reports about DVR & Villa Venus are unwanted, then ones about Bernds Schieferhof must be unwanted as well.

I already contacted Jackson directly regarding the FKK AO threads, I guess we'll soon see what becomes of that.

SwingerLover
08-12-13, 14:48
Since all "AO Clubs" are also either an FKK, a Sauna Club, a Partytreff, a Gangbang place or any other type of flatrate venue, and since not all AO places are actual clubs, (like the apartments in Krefeld for instance) it would be better to call the forum "AO venues" instead of "AO Clubs". Then it wouldn't matter what type of AO-place it is and ALL AO venues should be moved to there.

TomRifle
07-27-16, 16:05
And what exactly is Red Carpet Club? For example Villa Venus some people refer to as Red Carpet Club. Is it another name for AO club?

Downandup
07-27-16, 20:12
And what exactly is Red Carpet Club? For example Villa Venus some people refer to as Red Carpet Club. Is it another name for AO club?Not quite, the Red Carpet clubs may have the same owner and all have that red carpet interior. They have become AO clubs (I don't recall Dietz being AO when I visited many years ago) but there are a few other AO clubs out there too.