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That's incredible! Some girls are asking for incredible prices! And they are not young because, you know, in Ukraine girls older than 20 years are old girls. Don't pay more than 250/300 dollars per night at least 8 hours! And don't write the incredible prices we read because girls read this forum and then they have a word-to-mouth.
Thanks for the advice,
Is now or in march high season or good time to find SW or young students looking for some extra money?
These questions Nolies suggests actually take place. They are shit tests, you have to go through them by providing a proper answer. They still view the foreigner with respect though not as in the past when the foreigner was absolutely admired. In the West the game is run by the bad boys who know how to manipulate women. So a nice guy gets a behaviour from women which he thinks he does not deserve. He does not understand what is wrong with him.
When the nice guy travels to Ukraine, he is popular. He sees that the same qualities which made him look boring in the eyes of western women bring him success among ukrainian women. So he concludes that western women are wrong and not that he is responsible for that. Maybe he will see himself as a kind of Cassanova.
Truth is bad guys do not hit EE in the same amount as nice guys do cause bad guys are commited by a plentiful of relationships in their countries. If bad guys decided to travel to EE, their success would be considerably greater than this of nice guys. They are simply absent, so nice guys make theories about different mentality of ukrainian women who want providers,nice men etc.
In western Europe you need to use cocky and funny because the girls have been exposed to a lot of things and need constant stimulation. The usual, causal conversation seems boring to them. They want something else.
Contrary to that ukrainian girls are happy with the usual, casual conversation. Cocky and funny freaks them out and makes them lose trust.
For example if you ask a western girl, what is your favourite music, she will be bored quickly cause she hears about music and hits all the time. This question is legitimate and favourably accepted by an ukrainian girl. If you ask a western girl, do you like adventure or romance, her pupils will dilate and will look at you in a different way. If you ask the same question to an ukrainian girl, she will get confused, and maybe will become angry and violenst starting tests and accusations.
So a guy who does not use cocky and funny and carries out simple, straight conversations will be successful in Ukraine because the girls will add the complexity level to his words that is needed to make them interesting.
The same guy in the West will pass out as totally boring because the girls do not give to his words any extra meaning and are looking for stimulants they cannot usually find.
This is some kind of subjective analysis, how things work from the individual perspective while the objective statistical analysis examines the boundaries and possibilities which constitute the whole frame.I'm sorry Hecker, but I was just blown away by the arrogance and stupidity of your post. You are trying to be the self-proclaimed scholar at large with all this pseudo scientific and pseudo philosophical quackery. Obviously you're a failed student suffering from [well founded] insecurities and think you can get back some positive affirmation from this forum. You are actually wasting our time and making a fool of yourself.
I don't think your post deserves a complete analysis but I will point out some obvious flaws to prove the more general truth - you're post was complete nonsense.
So a nice guy gets a behaviour from women which he thinks he does not deserve. He does not understand what is wrong with him.WRONG. He gets bad behaviour that he KNOWS he does not deserve. He has no problem understanding what is wrong with him because he has no deficiencies! He MAY HAVE trouble understanding what is wrong with his female counterpart however.
Truth is bad guys do not hit EE in the same amount as nice guys do cause bad guys are commited by a plentiful of relationships in their countries.WRONG. This whole good guy, bad guy distinction is utterly ridiculous. It is a broad unfounded generalisation without any merit - I can't even begin to contemplate all the unreasonable assumptions which it is based on! More relevantly, your dichotomy completely misses the point. The relevant distinction here is between popular and unpopular men. Unpopular men are more likely to go to Eastern Europe because their perceive socio-economic advantage in those countries may counteract their other defects. Men may be unpopular with the opposite sex in their native country for many reasons - inter alia looks, charisma and intelligence.
So a guy who does not use cocky and funny and carries out simple, straight conversations will be successful in Ukraine because the girls will add the complexity level to his words that is needed to make them interesting. The same guy in the West will pass out as totally boring because the girls do not give to his words any extra meaning and are looking for stimulants they cannot usually find.INSANELY WRONG. Again, your logic is totally flawed. "Cocky and funny" is not the opposite of "simple, straight conversations". They are not mutually exclusive and they don't cover all the options. Draw a Venn diagram and figure it out. For example, serious conversation about herbal medicines in the Amazon rainforest is not cocky or funny or simple - yet many women (in the right situation) will find it extremely interesting and may become attracted to such a man because the topic demonstrates moral fibre and intellectual ability
The essence of what women find interesting when someone from the opposite sex is trying to woo them is inherently complicated - whether it be in the Ukraine, France or any other place. Of course it will differ between various countries based on history and culture - but that difference can't be casually summarised as one between East and West with the former prefering "cocky and funny" and the latter enjoying "straight and simple".
The whole base meaning, added meaning, stimulant rubbish made absolutely no sense. What I think you're trying to get at (unsuccessfully) is that words mean different things to different people depending on the sorts of things mentioned above. When you talk about "add the complexity level", "extra meaning" you should really be pointing to the difference between emotional and intellectual meaning. The intellectual meaning is the thought and logic that the words convey. The added meaning that you talk about is emotional meaning - the way that someone personally feels about those words.
You incorrectly imply that if someone doesn't feel good about something then the words don't have any “added” emotional meaning for them. That is not true. Feeling bad (anger, jealousy, hatred etc..) is just as worthy of being called 'meaning'.
In any case, there is no norm or standard that splits interests / preference / emotionalmeaning along the lines of simple and complex. And there is certainly no rule (as you imply in the whole romance or adventure example) which says that Eastern European women are more likely to get confused intellectually by complex information (logical meaning). You're suggestions to the contrary are not only stupid but also incredibly rude and disrespectful.
Reading between the lines – based on all your many misconceptions – one can conclude:
You don't understand women.
You are not popular and go to the Ukraine to get your sexual kicks. You can't accept responsibility for being unpopular so you create these “womanising bad guys” to blame for the problems of “nice guys” like you.
You're very confused! Stupidity? Lack of Education? Both?
This is some kind of subjective analysis, how things work from the individual perspective while the objective statistical analysis examines the boundaries and possibilities which constitute the whole frame.The piece de restiance! You're attempt at summarising a “theory of everything” is not only wrong (no suprise there) but also quite amusing.
Once again, you're mixing things up. You're confusing the subjective/objective and the general/specific dichotomies. You also throw in the the difference between empirical and anecdotal evidence as well.
It is obviously true that fundamentally the entire body of human knowledge is subjective – it is the product of mental processes. But putting that aside, reasonable people engaged in scholarship will try to get as close as possible to being truly objective. That state of 'objectivity' will be reached when a person is emotionally unresponsive to and completely dispassionate about their area of study. So, when we talk about the judgements of individual people - 'objective' means dispassionate and subjective means 'emotional'.
On those definitions, when you say “subjective analysis” you are discrediting your own post! Furthermore, “how things work from the individual perspective” is not a valid definition of subjective – not even close. That quote refers to the concept of specific (as opposed to general). It also hints at the concept of anecdotal evidence. Individual perspectives may of course still amount to empirical evidence though (depending on method).
“Objective statistical analysis” is not the opposite of “individual perspective” for the reasons outlined above. Also, statistics are not the only type of objective study. They ARE NOT synonymous with being objective! Technically statistics can in fact be subjective depending on the way that various definitions are made (e.g. Population groups, survey questions etc.). At best, statistics are just a subset of objective. You don't need numbers to be objective. Haven't you ever heard of the qualitative and quantitative distiction? – BOTH are valid methods of objective, dispassionate discourse.
If that last paragraph of your post was some attempt at excusing all the errors that you made - by saying that those errors are merely the product of your own limited personal experiences – that they were merely tentative conclusions which may be contradicted by more detailed study – then that attempt fails! Many of your conclusions can dismissed as being completely wrong using basic knowledge (reasonably presumed to be known by all) and common sense. The majority of the rest can be rejected because they are so uncertain, so prone to being contradicted, as to make them completely unworthy of any reliance or publication whatsoever.
In short, you have no idea what your talking about! The ridiculous posts that you make on this forum give people good reason to think you are sad, pathetic and stupid.
In the end, this forum is not the place for intellectual games. It's a space for sharing practical knowledge about sex related travel. If you need to test your own intelligence or cure insecurities then please do it elsewhere!
Bez Bezarra
02-12-08, 13:10
This morning on CNN, was a story that European countries may reciprocate for the new US and Japan requirements to fingerprint ALL visitors at entry points and international airports.
Anyone heard if this is coming in Ukraine? Like it doesn't take enough time waiting to clear customs at Boryspol?
I would expect something like this in Russia, but I don't know about Ukriane. Reciprocating for US entry requirements in Russia is pretty plainly spelled out, just read the Russian consulate's explanation for their increase fee for tourist visa, effective January 2008. It says that in repsonse to the USA visa fee increase to $131, therefore a Russian visa will now increase from $100 to $131.
Since there is no longer a visa required for Americans to enter Ukraine, then perhaps fingerprinting there won't be necessary either.
I already got printed once in Russia, when registering my passport late in the provinces. That fun experience only wasted 4 hours of my mongering time, plus $200 spent for absolutely nothing but official bribes. I'm sure if I was not from the US, it would have only cost about $3 to register.
Chowdy clap, clap. I made a practical post after presenting some statistics in order not to be accused for not taking into account individual features. You managed to totally misinterpret it. I doubt if you have the background for these issues because you use fallacies, one upon the other. Anyway I will not analyze what you say because it is beyond the scope of this forum. I only point to the common fallacy of finding one post that is not easily grounded (coincidence it is refered to as subjective? ) to dismiss any other post written by the usual beard logic that if something is wrong, then the rest sb has written is wrong as well. You also use the fallacy of changing the base of analysis and then the fallacy of generalising the effect of the limited. You do not avoid the psychological estimation and the personal attack, so there are few fallacies left.
Anyway this is not interesting because you lack the tools for the analysis. I cannot write them here because it does not interest anyone.
As you have noticed, people here have some questions which are practical and need some answers. For example one may ask where is it better for me to travel to have maximum chance of bedding a hot woman in let's say 3 days with a limited amount of means? How much should I spend? Is this time enough? What are the alternatives and many other questions. I try to answer him and in order not to appear absolutely spontaneous I give him some ground and a method to think. Of course I know it is not scientific but let's say I do not believe any scientist will ever teach in university international mongering. So you have to make one as reasonable as possible using quotes and data from other sciences from which you imitate the methods. Like the guys who use developmental psychology or biological psychology or cognitive psychology to seduct women. What is wrong with that?
Your assumption that I am a failed student is wrong since I have passed every exam even the most difficult ones (in international level) till now.
Your post does not include any piece of valuable information. You could say for example I disagree that conversation with an ukrainian girl would seem boring to a western girl and a conversation with a western girl would seem weird to an ukrainian girl. Instead you tell nosense like that unsuccessfull guys come to Ukraine and things like that. It is also strange that you chose to write that in your first post and so long after the refered post causing the suspicion that a regular member maybe told you to write that while you actually are of ukrainian origin.
LifeSavour
02-13-08, 07:39
If I wanted to read some psycho-babble, professor. Wannabe. Gooble-de-GUCK. I would enroll in some Kyiv Institution of 'Mid-Level' Education!
I will give hecker some credit for trying to tie into the 'screwing girls scene'. But C-man, your post almost made me vomit! With your trying to sound like the Dean of ALL Higher Learning! (were ya cut & pasting from some document? )
Lets get back to talking about the TOPIC at hand.
The other day riding the GREEN line metro, I decided to stop at Station "village people'. Vrydubuchi. I needed a cheap beer. Went into the local slum bar/kafe (I think you could pick any) and was surprised at the number of 'ladies'.
Spotted a table of 2 younger gals with travel bags sipping on their pivo (these gals can make a half liter last 2 hours)!
I asked my usual question. Got a smile, so I was in! I proposed an 18 grivna Champaigne from a great year. These girls ride the train in and stay with a friend once or twice a month. I have numbers and next time WE will visit sauna!
LS Guy
On my travels here in Ukraine and Russia over the last years and sampling both p4p and freebies.
Is it me or do a far larger % of them like and or do anal?
In England and America I met very few girls that liked it or even would entertain it.
But here I would say more than 50% of the girls I come across are up for it and at least 50% of them really actually enjoy it.
Hey guys,
I plan on visiting Ukraine for the first time either in May or June for 4 nights. I plan to go to Kiev (or should I go to Odessa)? Where should I stay? Can you recommend any of the hotels? Also, can you please recommend the top three must see mongering places in Kiev that have girls 8 and higher that I can take out for the whole night? Should I use escort services?
Your help is greatly appreciated. I will write a report as soon as I get back and describe Kiev from the point view of a first time visitor.
Thanks
Hey guys,
I plan on visiting Ukraine for the first time either in May or June for 4 nights. I plan to go to Kiev (or should I go to Odessa)? Where should I stay? Can you recommend any of the hotels? Also, can you please recommend the top three must see mongering places in Kiev that have girls 8 and higher that I can take out for the whole night? Should I use escort services?
Your help is greatly appreciated. I will write a report as soon as I get back and describe Kiev from the point view of a first time visitor.
Thanks
Ever tried to read past posts? theres all the information you need there dude!
Or save your money and keep it real in PB or La jolla?
But trust me the girls in Kiev are far better ;o)
Hey guys,
I plan on visiting Ukraine for the first time either in May or June for 4 nights. I plan to go to Kiev (or should I go to Odessa)? Where should I stay? Can you recommend any of the hotels? Also, can you please recommend the top three must see mongering places in Kiev that have girls 8 and higher that I can take out for the whole night? Should I use escort services?
Your help is greatly appreciated. I will write a report as soon as I get back and describe Kiev from the point view of a first time visitor.
ThanksI would stay in an apartment rather then a hotel.
I have used both these sites and they are great:
http://www.uaapartments.com/
http://www.kievapts.com/
Never done any escort agencies. For girls go to RP (a must see at least once) and ask a taxi to take you on a brothel tour. I have the card of my favorite one which seemed to have the hottest girls. PM me and I will give you the #. There is a Rhino strip club on Artema that is pretty good if your into that.
There are 3,924 other posts you can get information out of too in Kiev forum.
I would stay in an apartment rather then a hotel.
I have used both these sites and they are great:
http://www.uaapartments.com/
http://www.kievapts.com/
Never done any escort agencies. For girls go to RP (a must see at least once) and ask a taxi to take you on a brothel tour. I have the card of my favorite one which seemed to have the hottest girls. PM me and I will give you the #. There is a Rhino strip club on Artema that is pretty good if your into that.
There are 3,924 other posts you can get information out of too in Kiev forum.
Telos, I was asking if anyone had any info/experience with another place on Artema called Playmate Lounge, but nobody replied. Can you tell me about Rhino? Prices, do they allow take-out, etc
Brandon, rtff. :D
The Rhino clubs in Kiev - there are about 4 or so have some really super hot girls working there. But like any American strip club all you do is keep handing the girls your money while you get nothing in return.
Telos, I was asking if anyone had any info/experience with another place on Artema called Playmate Lounge, but nobody replied. Can you tell me about Rhino? Prices, do they allow take-out, etcThe Rhino on Artema has the hottest girls I have seen in a Kiev strip club yet. I also like it inside. Feels big. I went to another rhino on another street and it was horrible (kinda by the stadium). Same deal with playmate club or penthouse club (forgot the exact name). Did not like it there either though one of the girls was super hot.
I know a few of my friends are "dating" girls from there. Not sure about take out though. They will sit with you all night and have a good time though. I guess we can call that strip club GFE. We did walk a few out one night and nobody said anything with them leaving with us so I assume you can take out.
Give it a shot!
I agree there is a lot of diversity in Ukraine.
In West Ukraine girls look like polish. If you put the girls from Lvov in Krakow and the opposite, nobody will notice the difference. It is exactly the same look, that of southern Poland.
In Rovno they look more like belarus from south-west Belarus, a different kind of look. In Ternopil they start to look less polish and more ethnic ukrainian, let's say polish 60-70%.
After Kamenec Podolsky typical Kiev look predominates.
In Uzghorod they look like hungarian girls.
In Cernivtsi they resemble moldovan girls.
In Dnipro, Donbass different look, shorter than in the West and more russian than polish.
Kiev the center of all mixes. Girls looking more like western ukrainian due to heavy immigration recently.
In Mariupol they look like mediteranean girls because there were greeks before Ukrainians.
In Crimea they also have mediteranean but also certain russian and Tatar mix. Different variety of girls.
Unique odessan look caused by common population arrivals between Black Sea nations.
Girls in Kharkov almost russian.
Exceptional beauty in Lugansk, certain russian influence but also unique genes in the region maybe of Kossaks.
So a marvel combination, almost a different kind of eye candy in every region.
For people who are bored despite all these variations.
Czech girls, one of the best slavic mixes. There it is slavic-german producing amazing, first class beauties.
Slovakia with the absolutely stunning slovak-hungarian mix. These are world champions, model agencies recruit in these countries.
Serbia with the bombing slavic-mediteranean look that leaves you with the mouth open salivating. The tallest girls in Europe with faces like italian women. People get crazy for them.
And of course the polish sweet and the russian myth with its thousand variations as well by tatar, asian, western, skandinavian mix (in Latvia).
There is no way to complete the map of the superb slavic phenotypes.
EDITOR'S NOTE: I would suggest that the author or another Forum Member consider posting a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please Click Here (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?) for more information.Here it is.
Telos, are you saying you can take out from one of the Rhino clubs? Unless things have change since last winter there is zero possibility in take out from a Rhino club. Although last winter the police were in the middle of a turf war with someone about the strip club scene. I am assuming that all got sorted out by now and maybe things have changed at the Rhino's.
Went to Penthouse and thought it was a dump. The ice cream was good tho. Went there late on an off night and all they had left were a few skanks and no, not the good kind.
Telos, are you saying you can take out from one of the Rhino clubs? Unless things have change since last winter there is zero possibility in take out from a Rhino club. Although last winter the police were in the middle of a turf war with someone about the strip club scene. I am assuming that all got sorted out by now and maybe things have changed at the Rhino's.
Went to Penthouse and thought it was a dump. The ice cream was good tho. Went there late on an off night and all they had left were a few skanks and no, not the good kind.Well thats the thing - we walked out with a few girls to walk them home and no one (security/management) said anything to anyone. So I assume you can do take out but I have not personally tried.
Remember to wish your favorite FSU ho, gf or whatever a Happy Women's Day.
Captain Fire
03-12-08, 23:59
I know this was asked on here some time back, but I cannot find it. I will be staying in Kiev for several days with GF and she is interested in trying some toys. Has never seen before. Anyone have info on a place to shop and buy in Kiev?
PM me or answer on here if you can
Cap
Bez Bezarra
03-13-08, 03:19
GF interested in toys.
Anyone have a shop in Kiev?
Or maybe Ministry of Dildos of the Oktober Revolutsky in Red Army Plaza?
DoctorOral
03-13-08, 07:16
I know this was asked on here some time back, but I cannot find it. I will be staying in Kiev for several days with GF and she is interested in trying some toys. Has never seen before. Anyone have info on a place to shop and buy in Kiev?
PM me or answer on here if you can.
CapI believe Hyatt Regency Concierge will hand out toys as complimentary service if you ask!
Go to the McDonalds in Majdan. Looking at the front of the building go to the left hand side. I believe it's the first door stairways going down.
AColonizer
03-20-08, 12:45
I smile sadly when I talk about chatting had with two girls by Flirt site because they are the mirror of the madness of female sex: girls deserve not more than fuckings!
The first one, called Marianna, wants 100$/first hour for a GFE. I asked "Are you good with GFE?" "Yes, I am very good." "So you are good with anal sex and oral without." "No, I don't provide them because they are not GFE." Oh what a *****! She means GFE = money + sweet words + no work. And the worst thing is she surely finds a lot of customers for pussy fucking for that price!
The second one, called Anastasia (a forumer's friend), wants 300$ as a trip refund from her city to Kiev and to stay for a week with me. I asked her ten times "How can I pay your trip?" "By which mean can I send money to you?" "Write your information to give money to you" "Say to my bank to send money to Anastasia in Ukraine?" and she replied ten times "I come when you give money" "I don't understand." "Send a bank card." "I come when you give money." Oh what a stupid! She is a stunning girl but my cock is frightened by her stupidity.
And then I get around this site and I read more madness of female sex, for example in Pakistan women are usually sold as sex slaves for torture perversions and in Australia prostitutes' pussies worth more than platinum.
And do you know what is the final tragedy? Here is: women always say "I am looking for the real love."
Comming into my office today saw that the hem lines are getting higher again and less clothes are being worn........... ITs spring!!!!! )))))))))))))))) about bloody time was getting tired of guessing what their bodies are like! ;o)
Comming into my office today saw that the hem lines are getting higher again and less clothes are being worn........... ITs spring!!!!! )))))))))))))))) about bloody time was getting tired of guessing what their bodies are like! ;o)I'm back in 4 days for the summer. I can't wait!
Hi guys,
I know it's my first report and I should give info instread of asking. I know it, but I need your help.
I'm planning to be in Ukraine during the last week of April, mainly for freebies or semi-prof hunting. Not interested in escort agency.
I've been already 6 times in kiev always for short periods, 3-4 days.
Now I wish to visit some other place, but I'm not sure that I will find the real stunnings you can meet in decadance or skybar in kiev.
Is there any city with such kind of girls? Hopefully, a bit easier to get laid with them. Hunting stunning girls in kiev is now very difficult.
I was thinking about flying to Dnipropetrovsk to stay few days there and after have a car ride to Donetsk. But I also read about beautiful girls in kharkov. Please let let me know your suggestions.
Many thanks to everybody.
I was thinking about flying to Dnipropetrovsk to stay few days there and after have a car ride to Donetsk. But I also read about beautiful girls in kharkov.A great English speaking Taxi Driver, named Alex, can get you to places you want to go in Kharkov 380-931-292-600. He also knows a little 18 year old named Sveta that is well worth the money.
A great English speaking Taxi Driver, named Alex, can get you to places you want to go in Kharkov 380-931-292-600. He also knows a little 18 year old named Sveta that is well worth the money.Maverik,
Should I fly directly to kharkov or stay in Dnipropetrovsk and after have a taxi ride to Kharkov?
I generally advise to avoid all Donbass region, Dnipro, Donetsk, Zaporoziye (except Mariupol).Try Lugansk, Crimea or Mariupol instead.
I generally advise to avoid all Donbass region, Dnipro, Donetsk, Zaporoziye (except Mariupol).Try Lugansk, Crimea or Mariupol instead.Hi Hecker,
Could you be more specific. Why do you advise to avoid Dnipro / Donetsk? Is it difficult to hunt freebies? Not easy to find stunning? BTW, my style is the average stunning girl in Decadence in Kiev.
Or do you refer to other items, e. G. Safety, something else?
Thanks
Hi Hecker,
Could you be more specific. Why do you advise to avoid Dnipro / Donetsk? Is it difficult to hunt freebies? Not easy to find stunning? BTW, my style is the average stunning girl in Decadence in Kiev.
Or do you refer to other items, e. G. Safety, something else?
ThanksI advise that based on local attitude which is dependant on economics.Donbass region is the most economically developed after Kiev.This means practically that all girls have a work which pays them 300$ on average a month.Furthermore this means that they need foreigners for the extras they cannot afford like expensive meals at restaurants and presents.Add to this the communist mentality of constant struggle and blackmail and you have a quite good picture of what is going on.
In places like Dnipro,Dontesk,Zaporozziye you will be able to date the stunning girls which you see in Decadence but they refuse to give you their phone number.It is very likely however that these girls will trick you into buyng presents and meals without sex taken for granted.
That is why I advise to go to the more poverty hit regions like Lugansk,Crimea where the unemployment is high,the salaries lower,most girls do not work and the chances to bed(and not only date) hotties are higher than in Donbass.Of course the danger is greater as well but this is the risk you will take.
Anyway this is my opinion,things work different for different mongers you have to experience the situation yourself to draw conclusions.
I am heading to Sumy tomorrow for a few weeks. Can anyone give me any advice, pointers, contacts, girls ;-) etc. ?
Thanks in advance for all your help.
Mav
I am heading to Sumy tomorrow for a few weeks. Can anyone give me any advice, pointers, contacts, girls ;-) etc. ?
Thanks in advance for all your help.
MavI spent 4 days there last summer. There's not much to do, to be honest. There are two main pedestrian streets that run parallel to each other in the center. There's a couple clubs off those streets (El Dorado is the best. There is another one by the big fountain, just ask where the fountain is). Besides that, there are a few good restaurants on the smaller street (one "French" one that is decent, one pub that is decent).
I don't often go for P4P, but I'm sure it's available. I do like strip clubs, and after asking multiple taxi drivers I concluded that there isn't a real strip club in the place. There is one club that is very "Russian" (cheap, but the okhraniki won't let you leave until your waitress comes out and says you've paid) that does have a short strip show every night just on the dance floor (only 2 or 3 strippers for 20 minutes total. And no private dances or anything).
All in all not a very good destination unless you are going to visit someone in particular. That said, I was there 4-5 days and only ever saw one other foreigner, so in terms of "white god factor" it's probably as good as you'll get in Ukraine. Many girls I met there had never met a foreigner.
It's also very cheap, El Dorado is the nicest club and on multiple days I bought large groups of girls hookahs, food, cocktails, etc. And the total bill was always under $60-$80.
Wow, you are getting around. The next time I'm in the Ukraine I'll be asking you for advice. ;)
I am heading to Sumy tomorrow for a few weeks.
Wow, you are getting around. The next time I'm in the Ukraine I'll be asking you for advice. ;)
LOL ;-) Thanks Cruiser for all your advice, you, Dr. Skank and others such as Latexian2 below make this site enjoyable and worthwhile. ;-) I appreciate everyone's advice and insight ;-)
Exceptional weather is almost here! Where i live in east Ukraine it's +70 and sunny, in a few days the summer cafes(my prime hunting grounds) will start popping up, as mentioned in other threads, it's important not to look cheap, nice watch, shoes, clothes, all important, but don't forget about the accessories. This time of year bring your (good quality) sunglasses, dont walk around wearing cheap sun glasses, also a good pack or mens purse, I like the kind, with straps, that fits over your shoulder, and make sure when you're hunting, esp at summer cafes, to pack a good quality degital, these girls love to have their pics taken, it's a great way to great close.
Lucky Strike
04-10-08, 23:30
For those who can read/understand russian:
http://proua.com/news/2008/04/10/132929.html
For those who do not, he headline basically reads "Lutsenko (i think he's the minister of the interior) is for legalizing prostitution, but as long as it is not - will drive it under ground."
He wants to get rid of public displays such as billboards, tv, and newspaper ads. I wonder if they'll do a crackdown on the online ads as well....
Lucky, that has about zero chance of happening. Who do you think is running half the organized prostitutes/strip clubs in Kiev/Ukraine - the police and politicians.
If Yulia said she was going to start cracking down on prostitution I'd get a little worried but not if goon boy is saying he's going to. He's the one that bit-ch slapped the mayor or Kiev a few months ago, right? Yeah he's one of god's little troopers. ;)
Legalize prostitution in a heavily pseudo religious social backwards country..yeah, that has about zero chance of happening too.
Lucky, that has about zero chance of happening. Who do you think is running half the organized prostitutes/strip clubs in Kiev/Ukraine - the police and politicians.
If Yulia said she was going to start cracking down on prostitution I'd get a little worried but not if goon boy is saying he's going to. He's the one that bit-ch slapped the mayor or Kiev a few months ago, right? Yeah he's one of god's little troopers. ;)
Legalize prostitution in a heavily pseudo religious social backwards country..yeah, that has about zero chance of happening too.
Please, even Yula knows not to go that far, she's after the president's seat next year!
Anybody here recommends any good sites for free-bees? I mean any reliable dating sites for Ukraine?
Austin 147
05-02-08, 02:44
Fck Dick, you can try those 2 here below. I’ve been working in Ukraine for 2 years now, and I was quite successful with those 2 websites.
A lot of freebies.
Of course if you speak russian it would be much better.. but I don't, and I managed to meet quite a lot of girls, and to get a huge quantity of phone numbers. For sure it is better to have time if you try to meet a girl through those web sites... because it won't be as fast as with P4P... ;-) but it really worth it.
http://loveplanet.ru/
http://love.proext.com/
Anybody here recommends any good sites for free-bees? I mean any reliable dating sites for Ukraine?We've had another flurry of inquiries about dating sites as a source of freebies. Here's a phrase you might all want to learn in Russian if only for amusement.
In her profile, an attractive 30 year old responds to the question How frequently would you like to have sex? ( Насколько часто Вы хотели бы заниматься сексом? ) Answer: As mush as the man wants, but not very often! ( сколько захочет мужчина, но не очень редко! )
The exclamation point is in the original. If anyone wants her link on LovePlanet, send me a private message.
Wizz Air Ukraine opens Kiev base and launches domestic flights in July 2008
Wizz Air Ukraine, the first low fare - low cost airline in Ukraine announced at a press conference in Kiev today that it would start operating an initial network of seven Ukrainian domestic routes from its operating base at Kiev Boryspil Airport on 11 July 2008. Wizz Air Ukraine will provide low fare air travel service from Kiev Boryspil Airport to Lviv, Odessa, Simferopol, Kharkov and Zaporozhye. Flights from Lviv and Kharkov to Simferopol, the popular Krym resort will also be available to the Ukrainian travellers.
Wizz Air Ukraine’s new routes include:
Route Frequency
Kiev – Lviv 4 flights/week
Kiev - Kharkov 4 flights/week
Kiev - Odessa 7 flights/week
Kyiv - Zaporozhye 3 flights/week
Kiev - Simferopol 10 flights/week
Simferopol – Kharkov 3 flights/week
Simferopol – Lviv 4 flights/week
Ticket sales will be opened on 24 April with all inclusive fares starting from as low as UAH 79 on the airline’s website, wizzair.com or through the Wizz Air Ukraine call center on +380 (44) 206-4-888. (I think for this information the number can be placed)).)
Wizz Air Ukraine will operate brand new Airbus A320 aircraft configured with 180 leather seats offering low fares and convenient air travel experience to the Ukrainian public.
"Today is a milestone event in the development of Wizz Air as well as for the Ukrainian traveling public. Wizz Air Ukraine’s high quality service and low fares will change the dynamics of the Ukrainian transportation market. Now all those who never thought of flying before will have the opportunity to travel fast, safely and comfortably on our new Airbus A320 aircraft for the fraction of the current prices. ". Said Natália Kázmér, Director General of Wizz Air Ukraine. "Wizz Air Ukraine has ambitious plans to quickly expand its operations by adding international routes and more domestic services, opening further operating bases in various regions in Ukraine and ultimately deploying an increasing number of aircraft. ". She added.
Great news: So, get ready to see 1000's of foreigners coming to Ukraine in search of pussy.
It will make an already bad situation a diaster. Like it did in Baltics, Rumania, Poland, Slovakia etc.
Damn, where to go next?
I am curios how the hell will Airbus320 land in Odessa airport? It's got the shittiest runway on earth. You can't land an Airbus when you got potholes on the runway. In any case I want to see cheap flights from Frankfurt and the UK between Kiev/Odessa/etc.
Doctor_Skank
05-11-08, 10:04
Great news: So, get ready to see 1000's of foreigners coming to Ukraine in search of pussy.
It will make an already bad situation a diaster. Like it did in Baltics, Rumania, Poland, Slovakia etc.
Damn, where to go next?
Well so far it is only talking about inner-Ukraine travel, but it is only a question of time before cheap flights exist between Europe and Ukraine. Hard to say what exact effect it will have, but in EE "progress" is rarely good for the monger.
The main thing that opened Ukraine to sex tourists was waving visa regulations however. Euro 2012 is just around the corner too.
I am curios how the hell will Airbus320 land in Odessa airport? It's got the shittiest runway on earth. You can't land an Airbus when you got potholes on the runway. In any case I want to see cheap flights from Frankfurt and the UK between Kiev/Odessa/etc.
Austrian Air and Czech Air have being landing Boeing and Airbus at Odessa's airport for years already.
Well so far it is only talking about inner-Ukraine travel, but it is only a question of time before cheap flights exist between Europe and Ukraine. Hard to say what exact effect it will have, but in EE "progress" is rarely good for the monger.
The main thing that opened Ukraine to sex tourists was waving visa regulations however. Euro 2012 is just around the corner too.
Austrian Air and Czech Air have being landing Boeing and Airbus at Odessa's airport for years already.Actually for the monger is better to rely on airbus for inner travel instead of the Tupolev. It takes some risk away since some soviet made planes are known to have crashed recently. It takes also away the thrill of this experience.
In my opinion what keeps sex tourists away is mostly the lack of infrastructure (few hotels, most very old, no facilities, difficult transport), generally the roughness and harsh attitude of the locals and the inflation (who will come to Kiev just to drink? ). In case Ukraine does not join the EU, my guess is that Kiev will become like Moscow, an expensive place where fewer and fewer tourists will enter.
....
Damn, where to go next?
A milion dollar question... anybody has an answer ?
For example I'm considering to go to Odessa for 1 month, or to Yalta, but to live there as one of them, not as turist, so to go to place where go normal people, to buy food and to cook in the flat, to normal cheap discos and not to Arcadia, but..it worth it or I will come back disappointed ?
Anybody who tried to live in summer in UA in city close to sea can give me some suggests ?
Thanks in advance.
Austrian Air and Czech Air have being landing Boeing and Airbus at Odessa's airport for years already.
I landed there in a small Austrian Air Fokker jet, didn't realize they operate bigger planes there.
Doctor_Skank
05-11-08, 15:45
I landed there in a small Austrian Air Fokker jet, didn't realize they operate bigger planes there.
You may be right on Austrian, I've flown them a couple of times to ODS but can't recall exactly which aircraft it was. I think it was Airbus. Perhaps they use different aircraft depending on season and traffic.
Czech Air was Airbus 319 for sure though, I stole the emergency exit procedure card for my collection. I've flown Lot in there too... think it was a Boeing 737.
In any case, it truly is a shitty airport... but somehow feels homey, especially when the tractor dumps off everybody's luggage in a heaping pile on the street.. :)
A milion dollar question... anybody has an answer ?
For example I'm considering to go to Odessa for 1 month, or to Yalta, but to live there as one of them, not as turist, so to go to place where go normal people, to buy food and to cook in the flat, to normal cheap discos and not to Arcadia, but..it worth it or I will come back disappointed ?
Anybody who tried to live in summer in UA in city close to sea can give me some suggests ?
Thanks in advance.In your case I would have a flexible scheme.Trey to find out the most popular places in Crimea.then visit each of them for 2-3 days and stay wher you find many willing girls.There are lots of touistic places in Crimea,in my opinion it is mistake for sb to stay just in one if he has no former experience.
So I ould visit Yalta,Kazzantip,Sudak and evry other popular place to find out for example where
1. The Belarus girls go
2. The Ukraine village girls go
I would avoid the places where high level Russian girls from Moscow go with their bfs or sponsors.
Anyway to find out what actually is going on you have to visit the place yourself and make your map of mongering.
Accoding to may information the Crimea region tends to become very expensive for Ukrainians and many of them prefer the Azof sea or resorts in Bulgaria and Turkey which are paradoxically cheaper.
I can advise you to go to Koktebel. Very nice village in Crimea where many locals from Ukraine in summer go.
Rooms can be rented from 15 dollars a day. These rooms are in apartmentbuildings where you share the bathroom and the kitchen with other tourists. Nice experiance! ;-)
Apartments like in for instance Kiev can also be rented prices from 30 dollars up to.
If you want to stay near Odessa, you could also go to Koblevo. It is a nice village about an hour from Odessa. People who cannot afford to go to Odessa go to Koblevo. Also very nice beach and many students and other locals.
Thanks friends for the suggests.
Back a week ago from my last time in Slovakia, you can find my report in its thread, I remembered one more time that Odessa was really the place where I saw the most beautiful girls in my life, second only to Russia.
2 years ago in Odessa I was disappointed, cause very selfish girls and they need a lot of work, time energy and money, but one evening I went in sort of suburb of Odessa, a ukranian friend took me till there, there were a couple of disco but empty, it was middle of september, but in one bar I found a lot of people. In a hour I spoke easily with few girls, that they were so friendly I had problem to believe I was still in Odessa. I am sure with couple of days more I could get into their skirts, also the prices of drinks were so cheap.
Now I can take 1 month holiday and I have soon to choose where to go.
I thought about south of spain, good weather, good beaches and great food and sex scene in brothels with the plus in spain I will feel really safe. (think maybe in one month you can get sick and much better get sick in Spain if you need hospital than in UA..)
I thought about one month in Piter, but I want to enjoy sun and the sea, so maybe Sochi, but so little info about it that I scare it is a place for very rich russian business men use to go to holiday.
So I thought about one month in UA, close to Ods or Crimea, honestly dear friends I know nothing about ukranian cities in front of the beach besides Ods, so I really have no idea.
The negative points, is that to be alone in Ua I will not feel so safe as in Spain, my russian is very basic and I am afraid I can really get boring if I choose wrong places-cities.
Also once I go to one city in Crimea I have no idea where I can find renting flat and even if I am in early '30 yo I am not type of person who go to share toilet and shower with somebody.
My questions are, living there for 3-4 weeks can really increase the chance to date or I am getting to have the same disappoint as 2 years ago ? Till a bit time ago I was very successfull in czech and slovak republic, I am in good shape and even if I am not Brad Pitt I think maybe to be in little city with almost nobody foreigner can increase a lot the chances to date, but maybe I am wrong, I do not know.
Second question is which is the best month to get higher temperature to take bath to the sea and to enjoy the sun? All july or from middle of july till middle of august ?
Third question, is you was alone, you'd choose Crimea or south of Spain where surely you will not get into depression on monday evening alone in little flat at 12th floor in soviet style building ?
UA girls, we know, are very beautiful but in brothels in Spain you get girls from all over the world,included south america and at reasonable prices.
Fourth question: in little city or big village which kind of sex scene I am going to find, if there exists something ?
For me it is very hard to decide, but I have to decide something very soon and to start to prepare my travel in advance,booking flight and flat.
Thanks so much...
P.S:
Hecker:
thanks, I agree the flexible scheme is the best, but honestly, I do not like to travel every 2-3 days or I will be back home more tired than I left, it should be holiday and take a rest too. Get where normal ukranians girls go means meet them in the net and ask ?
Ismael:
Koktel is Koblevo ? Surely share facilities is the best way to make new friends, I am thinking that I love to cook for example and I agree can be an unforgettable experience with a bit of luck, but maybe cause I am not brave as when younger or maybe I am a bit lazy, but to be alone there make feel more safe in my own flat than in flat with shared toilet, kitchen and so on, but I know, it was a good idea, I will think about it.
Koblevo is situated between Odessa and Nikolaev.
Koktebel is on Crimea.
Both are well known Holiday spots for locals.
I understand why you want to spend your time in smaller villages or not tourist-mind places. But to be honest I think you will get some troubles/problems finding friends/dates and so on, cause your Russian is just basic and I assume you do not speak Ukrainian either.
If this is your goal you can better go to Odessa, Yalta, Anapa or the Russian Sochi. Here you find many English speaking people and also English menus in the restaurants. The prices of course are also tourist minded.
Renting a flat is easy in every city of Ukraine! In the bigger cities you can find babushka's at every train station entrance. They offer flat's for low.
In the smaller cities and villages you can find these babushka's at the central bus station.
If you want to rent a western style apartment you can contact almost any apartment or marriage agency in the next bigger city of where you want to stay. The will arrange it for you with pleasure. ($$$)
About safety I cannot tell you much. But I think the safety in the south of Spain is the same as in for instance Crimea. I’m sure in Spain it can also be stupid to walk alone through a small alley in the middle of the night. But this counts for almost all places.
July and August are both warm months near the Black sea.
Further I think you should make following decisions first before you decide where you go:
- Western city in Spain or go to Ukraine.
- Meeting other tourists in Spain or meeting locals in Ukraine.
- Go to a brothel in Spain or try to connect with a local in Ukraine.
- Easier communication in Spain or though work in Ukraine.
If you make for yourself the conclusion that it would be possible that you feel alone in your sovjet style flat.
Don’t come to Ukraine!
EDITOR'S NOTE: I would suggest that the author or another Forum Member consider posting a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please Click Here (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?) for more information.
But if you want a loving wife, raised to have decent, honest values who will respect you no matter what your financial situation is, you should look in moslem countries. In those countries it is perfectly acceptable for a 40-55 year old man to marry a young girl. All you have to do is find out who her parents are, where she lives and go meet her dad and ask for his daughter hand.
You will then marry a young, pretty virgin who has never set a foot in a disco in her life, doesn smoke and wiil be devoted to you!
So, if you want to marry or have a serious relation, forget about Ukraine, russia or any other EE country.
Instead, head to Turkey, Morocco, Egypt, Syria or Lebanon.
And, once you find your ideal women, don't forget to thank me.I'm very glad about this post. I personally like girls with huge breast (> E). Do you know, in which muslim country can I find breasted wife?
Some info to you: I talked with one Egiptian man and he told me, that:
1) Morocco is light-muslim country and some unmarried girls practice sex with boys
2) Most of Egiptian girls does not come into relationship with white man
Additional info which I get from Tajikistan-man: in many muslim countries girl can marry only muslim man.
In general, your advice seems to be wise. Thank you!
Lukaszek you have wrong frame of thinking. If there were an Eldorado, you should be sure that it would have been already discovered. True is you have to search for yourself. You have to move. No pain, no gain. The point is to be able to do what the rest cannot do.
Can anyone change place every few days in foreign, strange country without infrastructure just to find girls? Can anyone walk hours under sun all along beach to pick up hot girls?
Can everyone combine long walks, dates, clubbing till early morning and coping up with the locals in order to get girls? The more you get used to hardness, the easier it gets.
It is a question if resort places are better than big cities to hunt girls. Do you know the answer? I guess not. If I ask you for example where is better to hunt czech girls, in CR or in Croatia where they go for vaccation what would you answer? If I ask you where is it better to hunt polish girls, in Poznan or in resorts like Sopot, what would you answer? So the question resort like Crimea or big city in Ukraine remains open. You have to find out for yourself. Nobody is going to give you the key.
DJ FourMoney
06-03-08, 09:15
What is your Ultimate Goal in The Ukraine or Eastern Europe in General?
Doc, Cruiser, Bez, Hecker and a few others have spent countless hours in Russia and Ukraine screwing and sometimes dating 100's of women between them all.
I was just wondering what is the final goal, the thing that will make you stop mongering at least on a regular basis and play "faithful boyfriend/husband" at least when she's around?
For the record I didn't monger in Kiev, that is if you call hooking up with a internet freebie not mongering. She wanted to fuck me more than I wanted to fuck her, something about dreaming about being screwed by African-American, not an African which are "around" Kiev though I never saw one when I was there.
Telso agreed to hook up while I was in town and we hit up RP. I found the pricing to be a bit steep, especially when no extras were on offer (at least from the girl I talked too).
That was the only P4P mongering I ever got close enough too and that includes "Professional Party Girl/Student" from now defunt 112.
But between the "freebie" and the girl that smiled at me after I got lost on the subway and was late meeting Telso (She was outside the mall in which you'll find 112 and the other club upstairs for those not familar), I feel I can actually pull some wifey material out of the Ukraine. I would say Russia but is it worth paying visa fees???
Maybe it is, I have a net friend on an IR site I belong too and he is going to Russia, at first to just go, now its to see this seriously cute Russian from St Pete. She's not the only Russian on that site, she's one of at least three I know of and that site is not on the first page of Google when you search IR Dating or whatever.
In otherwords, its not easy to find.
In any case, as my boy Doc would say, I could find a "fan club" anywhere on the earth, your the man Doc, I wholeheartely agree. Its narrow casting however and the wait and see approach has worked up too a point, the concern over fake profiles and email addresses has proven problematic, even though most girls I have heard from speak at least conversational english or cheat using a translator or they are fake and I am speaking to Boris/Yuri....
That process has been so hit and miss (mostly miss) that I am considering an agnecy and I can just hear the screams of "NOOOOO" from the peanut gallery, but what else is a brotha to do???
Telso PM'ed and let me know how long he was going to be in Kiev. I feel I need a wingman for this project (its more fun anyway, I enjoyed his company) but I want to expose myself to as many women as possible since I do not live there and can't be gradually seen around town like anybody else.
Since my goals are a Long Term Relationship which means the whole K-1 mess and paperwork, I wanted to know if any of you guys are considering that same route or just out having a good time while it last?
Is it even worth it with EE changing and becoming more Westernize by the hour?
I mean it would be much easier if I just focused on Western Europe, where we can take care of any paperwork locally and she'll be issued a "Green Card" on the spot for the most part and be allowed to travel back to the US.
I'm just interested in some honest dialog and I feel I can get it here easier than other sites, where Sex Tourism is looked down on or where the use of agencies has clouded others judgement and ability to offer advice.
I think that's long enough... :)
What is your Ultimate Goal in The Ukraine or Eastern Europe in General?
Doc, Cruiser, Bez, Hecker and a few others have spent countless hours in Russia and Ukraine screwing and sometimes dating 100's of women between them all.
I was just wondering what is the final goal, the thing that will make you stop mongering at least on a regular basis and play "faithful boyfriend/husband" at least when she's around?
For the record I didn't monger in Kiev, that is if you call hooking up with a internet freebie not mongering. She wanted to fuck me more than I wanted to fuck her, something about dreaming about being screwed by African-American, not an African which are "around" Kiev though I never saw one when I was there.
Telso agreed to hook up while I was in town and we hit up RP. I found the pricing to be a bit steep, especially when no extras were on offer (at least from the girl I talked too).
That was the only P4P mongering I ever got close enough too and that includes "Professional Party Girl/Student" from now defunt 112.
But between the "freebie" and the girl that smiled at me after I got lost on the subway and was late meeting Telso (She was outside the mall in which you'll find 112 and the other club upstairs for those not familar), I feel I can actually pull some wifey material out of the Ukraine. I would say Russia but is it worth paying visa fees???
Maybe it is, I have a net friend on an IR site I belong too and he is going to Russia, at first to just go, now its to see this seriously cute Russian from St Pete. She's not the only Russian on that site, she's one of at least three I know of and that site is not on the first page of Google when you search IR Dating or whatever.
In otherwords, its not easy to find.
In any case, as my boy Doc would say, I could find a "fan club" anywhere on the earth, your the man Doc, I wholeheartely agree. Its narrow casting however and the wait and see approach has worked up too a point, the concern over fake profiles and email addresses has proven problematic, even though most girls I have heard from speak at least conversational english or cheat using a translator or they are fake and I am speaking to Boris/Yuri....
That process has been so hit and miss (mostly miss) that I am considering an agnecy and I can just hear the screams of "NOOOOO" from the peanut gallery, but what else is a brotha to do???
Telso PM'ed and let me know how long he was going to be in Kiev. I feel I need a wingman for this project (its more fun anyway, I enjoyed his company) but I want to expose myself to as many women as possible since I do not live there and can't be gradually seen around town like anybody else.
Since my goals are a Long Term Relationship which means the whole K-1 mess and paperwork, I wanted to know if any of you guys are considering that same route or just out having a good time while it last?
Is it even worth it with EE changing and becoming more Westernize by the hour?
I mean it would be much easier if I just focused on Western Europe, where we can take care of any paperwork locally and she'll be issued a "Green Card" on the spot for the most part and be allowed to travel back to the US.
I'm just interested in some honest dialog and I feel I can get it here easier than other sites, where Sex Tourism is looked down on or where the use of agencies has clouded others judgement and ability to offer advice.
I think that's long enough... :)
A good looking African American guy looking for a serious, maybe longterm relationship ? Any one of the Scandinavian countries should be just fine for you, in particular Finland where the girls all complain the local men drink too much.
DJ FourMoney
06-03-08, 22:54
A good looking African American guy looking for a serious, maybe longterm relationship ? Any one of the Scandinavian countries should be just fine for you, in particular Finland where the girls all complain the local men drink too much.
I know Tremayne... Here's how I see it honestly. (I'll try and keep this short)
In Western Europe and this is mostly based on my experienced in meeting women online and not on the ground; (I was never in one place for more than 3-4 days save for Germany) I think my effective age range is late 20's to mid to late 30's, even early 40's.
I also understand in Western Culture its acceptable to marry much later in life, so many in the desirable 21-25 bracket are not interested in long term relationships.
If one desires somebody that doesn't mind a 12-13 year age gap, that is not going to happen in Western Europe, AU, The US or Canada. Most of the women I know are no more than 5 years younger than me, save for ONE and all have at least one child, not a bad thing, but if forced to choose...
Also maybe less likely today in more Westernized cities like Kiev, Moscow and St Pete. Most of the contacts I have made in EE save for 1 have been in their late 20's.
Okay maybe I'm being too picky...
Only the "freebie" in Kiev has a child, all the others are childless. I'm on one fairly cheap web site that is also in Russian (got from this broad thanks guys) and I get "interested" emails fairly often, but I am wary of "scams". I met the freebie on that site, but she IM'ed me first, not the other way around.
I've tried to connect with one Finnish girl but it seems she's not interested, quite stunning actually, she is, not that she's not interested - lol
Found her on Black Planet, I know where her interest lies...
In any event, maybe I need a job like you guys have that allows you to travel internationally on a regular basis or just save up for a solid year, cash in some of my stocks and live aboard for at least 6 months. I figure 6 months is long enough before you become part of the surroundings and aren't "special" or "exotic" anymore.
Tremayne I have not been to Finland yet, its on my list of Scandinavian countries to visit along with Iceland and Demark.
But the Dollar is getting crushed and everything is more expensive without that in Scandinavia, I have to check exchange rates and make a plan but maybe I can make a 6 months in Europe (90 days in 2 countries, somebody said that was possible without visa requirements) work on a budget of $1500 a month, I dunno.
Edit -
After reading what I posted, I wanted to add another train of thought.
I do know one German woman that has admitted to dating men 15-16 years her senior. I don't believe its totally isolated, however not typical either. Just how many younger women do I have to file though before one says that is okay that I am 38 (yes I look younger and could lie, but rather not).
Dayum I don't know anymore.
All I know is I KNOW what I want, I'm just not finding it here and have no interest in criss-crossing the country, even if that's the most cost-effective thing to do the potential outcome is far too uncertain.
If I am bothering you guys too much with this stuff when I know the main topic is mongering please let me know and I'll stop.
If I were black, I would avoid the rural Ukraine at all and stick to Kiev. It is very likely that you come across conflicts with locals if you go to province as a person of colour. It is like you are looking for trouble.
With the rise of right wing and neonazis all over FSU, I regard only Kiev as safe for black men and some civilized areas in Ukraine which are a bit more cosmopolitan. The rest is to be avoided, especially the cities deep in Ukraine away from the sea.
As for girls response I noticed some girls with black men in Kiev. I think a certain percentage of girls in every country like black men. When I ask them why, most answer it is because of the dick factor.
Gentleman Travel
06-04-08, 16:52
If I am bothering you guys too much with this stuff when I know the main topic is mongering please let me know and I'll stop.
I don't think you are off-topic, you are just approaching things the other way around from most of us, you are mongering while looking for LTR. I was thinking of going down that road myself, until I patched things up with my wife (for now) - which, incidentially, I credit to having started to do some mongering, and realized that there were more options out there for me, so I stopped being such a wussy at home and asserted myself more, with happy results.
I am surprised that you are having such difficulty, I would have thought going into this with a sincere desire for LTR/marriage would be a winning hand.
Of course the race thing makes a difference.
Ironically it probably makes it more difficult for you to find a LTR vs STR.
Probably lots of girls would be happy to experiment with a black boyfriend,
but inter-racial marriage is a whole different thing. You may want to focus where racial variety is a bit more normal, rather than cities/societies where blonde slavic beauty predominates.
My advice is relax and just keep on dating.
Play the LTR card with sincerity, but don't panic when it doesn't work out.
Don't get too invested up front. Eventually it will happen, so just enjoy all the failed experiments along the way!
I don't think you are off-topic, you are just approaching things the other way around from most of us, you are mongering while looking for LTR.I agree with Gentleman Travel.
Lukaszek,
You can marry a devoted, faithful, young, sexy moslem girl if you convert to Islam. It is a very simple ceremony where you are asked to repeat a few times "There is no God but Allah (Arabic name for God)and Mohames is his prophet". After that they will ask you to choose a moslem name and THATS IT!
Lukaszek. You can marry a faithful, devoted, young, sexy moslem girl by converting to Islam. It is a very simple ceremony where you are asked to repeat a few times"There is no God but Allah (arabic name for God)and Mohamed is his prophet". After that you will be asked to choose a moslem name and THATS IT! You can then marry the sincere, decent girl you want to have as a wife. And, yes, plenty of Big-breasted women in moslem countries.
DJ FourMoney
06-05-08, 12:46
Is it just me or wtf is this doing on the Ukraine forum?
What has converting to be a muslim and chasing muslim girls........ as if most on here would want to. Have to do with Ukraine?
Yes before you jump yes I know of the Crimea Tatars, but the are not the prevailing group or religion in Ukraine...... so why here?
BTW Q thanks for the PM and I'll be in contact with you soon...
DJ FourMoney
06-05-08, 13:26
I don't think you are off-topic, you are just approaching things the other way around from most of us, you are mongering while looking for LTR. I was thinking of going down that road myself, until I patched things up with my wife (for now) - which, incidentially, I credit to having started to do some mongering, and realized that there were more options out there for me, so I stopped being such a wussy at home and asserted myself more, with happy results.
I am surprised that you are having such difficulty, I would have thought going into this with a sincere desire for LTR/marriage would be a winning hand.
Of course the race thing makes a difference.
Ironically it probably makes it more difficult for you to find a LTR vs STR.
Probably lots of girls would be happy to experiment with a black boyfriend,
but inter-racial marriage is a whole different thing. You may want to focus where racial variety is a bit more normal, rather than cities/societies where blonde slavic beauty predominates.
My advice is relax and just keep on dating.
Play the LTR card with sincerity, but don't panic when it doesn't work out.
Don't get too invested up front. Eventually it will happen, so just enjoy all the failed experiments along the way!
Thanks GT, my failure rate actually only seem high...
If were talking about recent events of less than 2 years old, I haven't been out much. Kinda hard to fail when your not even dating locally, lol
On the European front, I original went with meeting -
1) German
1) Norwegian
1) Ukrainian
The German bombed because I went and saw the Norwegian (28 vs 34) first and that bombed because she didn't like what she saw, which forced me to Plan B which didn't turnout right because physically we were not a match (Swedish of Finnish decent, read: not that cute and 6'1), which sent me to Germany to Plan C and that bombed, she's getting married and moving to the US Eastern Seaboard.
That led me to my first FKK experience (Oase), then Frankfurt RLD and then later a trip to Ukraine at her request. If I really wanted to have something long term with Larisa I could, I just hate that feeling I could do better and honestly she's about 5/10 in looks 7/10 of body by Slavic standards.
The one thing I have seem to notice though is that most of the Slavic women I know that are interested in African-Americans (not Africans, not one in the same) tend to have dark hair.... I don't know if that's a consequence or not. Every girl that has hit me up on LL has dark hair, but one, hmmm not that I have a problem with that - :D
In any case, I think my failure rate is falsely high (if were talking EE women) I have only had conversations with two. Out of those two, they were serious to meet me. The Russian was traveling to Turkey and wanted me to come but I was already on my way back to the States.
She's 25, an English Teacher in Russian Oil country forgot the name of the city though.
She's keeping things platonic though and we have video chatted several times.
I haven't talked to her in a few weeks though, I have been keeping my MSN and Yahoo Msg off lately I just don't wanna be bothered with anybody at the moment.
I also know a Slovakian girl that's mad sexy, dark curly hair, 30, no kids. But I'm not quite sure she's interested in me.
One other Ukrainian girl I have talked too before lives in the middle of the country, I forgot where and is the only blond I have spoken with thus far. She said she was down to meet, but wouldn't be ready for several months.
I take that as -
a) never dated an Black Man before
b) has a boyfriend, talking to guys online at work, on the down-low.
Haven't talked to her in awhile.
I just haven't dived head first into Eastern Europe that's all I think.
I do need an extended trip though if any of this is going to work!
DJ FourMoney
06-05-08, 13:37
If I were black, I would avoid the rural Ukraine at all and stick to Kiev. It is very likely that you come across conflicts with locals if you go to province as a person of colour. It is like you are looking for trouble.
With the rise of right wing and neonazis all over FSU, I regard only Kiev as safe for black men and some civilized areas in Ukraine which are a bit more cosmopolitan. The rest is to be avoided, especially the cities deep in Ukraine away from the sea.
As for girls response I noticed some girls with black men in Kiev. I think a certain percentage of girls in every country like black men. When I ask them why, most answer it is because of the dick factor.
I agree with that as well, but I have to ask you.
You aren't REALLY asking girls at random you see with an African (chances are they aren't American) why they are dating/married too a Black Man are you???
I have no idea why unless you were doing some kind of research.
IMHO, the women that are interested in Black men for a fling/large dick have no intention of being with them long term, I agree there. Single women go to Jamaica for the same thing...
In any event anybody SERIOUS about LTR that is dating a Black man seriously considers him husband material and is willing to deal with all the good and the bad things that tend to go with it. Though I think Slavs have NO IDEA in terms of REAL data/feedback and I'm not sure how much media coverage of our social problems get covered by EE news sources.
I do however take women that don't put racial preferences in their profiles with gain of salt, I don't think they believe a Black Man, let alone an American Black man would be trying to contact them. I think the assume they'll get only Caucasian contacts from the US.
But yes I can find a small fan club; I know a Mexican and an African-American that are married to Russian women and not fat ugly ones either.
I agree with that as well, but I have to ask you.
You aren't REALLY asking girls at random you see with an African (chances are they aren't American) why they are dating/married too a Black Man are you???
I have no idea why unless you were doing some kind of research.
IMHO, the women that are interested in Black men for a fling/large dick have no intention of being with them long term, I agree there. Single women go to Jamaica for the same thing...
In any event anybody SERIOUS about LTR that is dating a Black man seriously considers him husband material and is willing to deal with all the good and the bad things that tend to go with it. Though I think Slavs have NO IDEA in terms of REAL data/feedback and I'm not sure how much media coverage of our social problems get covered by EE news sources.
I do however take women that don't put racial preferences in their profiles with gain of salt, I don't think they believe a Black Man, let alone an American Black man would be trying to contact them. I think the assume they'll get only Caucasian contacts from the US.
But yes I can find a small fan club; I know a Mexican and an African-American that are married to Russian women and not fat ugly ones either.
DJ, forget about all the racial stuff here, the real problem that you have is exactly the same one every other guy has who is looking for a LTR, you have got to put in the time before you have any chance of making it work. I honestly believe that the chances of success via the internet are pretty limited. Unless you use that only as a starting block but eventually it comes back to putting the time in. These Slavic girls can be very smart and some are extremely devious, it can take a lot of different situations before you are able to truly evaluate if she is the one you want to commit to.
They are also very practical, I guess that's down to the survival factor, for example average length of time for a Slavic girl to be heartbroken when a relationship dies ? Two weeks maximum !
DJ FourMoney
06-06-08, 08:02
DJ, forget about all the racial stuff here, the real problem that you have is exactly the same one every other guy has who is looking for a LTR, you have got to put in the time before you have any chance of making it work. I honestly believe that the chances of success via the internet are pretty limited. Unless you use that only as a starting block but eventually it comes back to putting the time in. These Slavic girls can be very smart and some are extremely devious, it can take a lot of different situations before you are able to truly evaluate if she is the one you want to commit to.
They are also very practical, I guess that's down to the survival factor, for example average length of time for a Slavic girl to be heartbroken when a relationship dies ? Two weeks maximum !
Time is always a factor.
Working on a game plan...
This question has probably been asked before but how do you join Flirt.ua? Do they have an English section?
Sevastopol1
06-25-08, 08:25
Is it just me or wtf is this doing on the Ukraine forum?
What has converting to be a muslim and chasing muslim girls........ as if most on here would want to. Have to do with Ukraine?
Yes before you jump yes I know of the Crimea Tatars, but the are not the prevailing group or religion in Ukraine...... so why here?
Hate to disagree, but you also have many moslems from Georgia in Crimea as well as the Tatars.
Sevastopol1
06-26-08, 10:28
Georgan muslims? really? they may look that way but I have never been to a more devout Cristian country than Georgia..... maybe I missed something?
maybe not.....http://countrystudies.us/georgia/27.htm ;)
"In 1993 some 65 percent of Georgians were Georgian Orthodox, 11 percent were Muslim, 10 percent Russian Orthodox, and 8 percent Armenian Apostolic.
Non-Orthodox religions traditionally have received tolerant treatment in Georgia. Jewish communities exist throughout the country, with major concentrations in the two largest cities, Tbilisi and Kutaisi. Azerbaijani groups have practiced Islam in Georgia for centuries, as have the Abkhazian and Ajarian groups concentrated in their respective autonomous republics. The Armenian Apostolic Church, whose doctrine differs in some ways from that of Georgian Orthodoxy, has autocephalous status."
10.5% of these moslems are now in Ukraine, there are many mosques in this part of the Ukraine, anyway wtf has this got to do with international sex?????
Regards Sev
Captain Fire
06-26-08, 14:57
Rayboy
You will need a translation program on your computer. As far as I know, Flirt does not have an English section. I've used it to contact several girls in various cities in Ukraine and its worked well for me. The ones offering P4P will have their profile highlighted in pink. Seems rather apropos.
This question has probably been asked before but how do you join Flirt.ua? Do they have an English section?
Thanks. I will try Babelfish.
Joejoemonkey
08-02-08, 21:26
Apparently, Ukrainian women are in large demand nowadays. I stumbled upon this site that lists classifieds, items for sale, jobs, etc. Seems pretty popular -- about 45,000 offers for cars, 18,000 job listings. Using Google translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fddo.com.ua&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ru&tl=en
Well, if you go to the working girls section, you will find thousands of ads from other countries wanting Ukrainian women to work there. Especially places like Greece, Dubai, Italy, and Spain. And they all promise thousands of euros! No wonder they all have a big head now. I'm sure most of these places advertising are quite sketchy, to say the least. Also, from some reason unknown to me, the ads stop abruptly around the end of May. Here's the girl's section:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgirl.ddo.com.ua&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ru&tl=en
Subaculture
08-07-08, 12:01
Rising sex tourism unwelcome (August 6th 2008)
http://www.kyivpost.com/nation/29364/print/
"In 2007, 23 million foreigners visited Ukraine, according to the administration, up 22 percent over 2006. The vast majority of foreigners came mainly from former Soviet republics. However, the greatest rise in the numbers was from the European Union and other non*CIS nations. That category showed a 96 per cent rise, or 725,000 more visitors."
How sad.
But anyways. I think sex tourism has been lessening in Kyiv since 2005 as the economic situation improves. Less girls have to sell themselves and those that do, more locals can afford to buy them :).
As far as Kyiv being a sex tourism destination because it is cheap...ha..ha..ha..
Toptraveler1
08-13-08, 00:29
May someone tells me when a Ukranian girl fixes your eyes, what does it mean as it is much less commun in Western Europe?
Thanks
May someone tells me when a Ukranian girl fixes your eyes, what does it mean as it is much less commun in Western Europe?
ThanksIt is actually very common in Germany. It actually means that the girl is wondering why you still got your haircut from your mother, despite being 40 years old.
It is actually very common in Germany. It actually means that the girl is wondering why you still got your haircut from your mother, despite being 40 years old.
Ha ha ha...
Its very often the girls sort of wondering who you are.... if you notice the men do exactly the same, like the same type of stare in England that would start a fight!
Try a smile to the girl... if she smiles back go right over and talk... unless shes with a guy then try time it so you go to toilet at the same time and swap numbers near there! always works for me.
Toptraveler1
08-15-08, 15:38
No doubt that it should be commun in Germany; special country with special people!
Just thing is that I am just 25
It is actually very common in Germany. It actually means that the girl is wondering why you still got your haircut from your mother, despite being 40 years old.
Is there much difference in prices for the girls in Kiev & Odessa ?
Doctor_Skank
08-28-08, 14:53
Is there much difference in prices for the girls in Kiev & Odessa ?There is cheap and expensive in both cities (depending on your definition of cheap and expensive I suppose) and Odessa's prices are seasonal (higher in summer), but the major differences are:
1) Kiev has many more options
2) Kiev has the better-looking PROS
3) Odessa pros are always in danger of falling into drug scene
4) Kiev pro scene everywhere, sometimes English-speaking and always available
5) Odessa pro scene largely underground and sometimes difficult to access without connections/numbers
In terms of just pros, I'd always choose Kiev over Odessa.
Just my 2 cents, I am sure there are guys out there with more pro experience in both cities that can add some info.
Doctor_Skank
08-28-08, 18:54
Just another word of warning, again my checked luggage was "checked" by customs officials. It happened to me once before in Ukraine as well when the SD card was taken out of my video camera I had in checked luggage. Luckily card was empty of anything "compromising". I since made sure I didn't check any camera equipment/digital media in but carry it on.
Happened again though, but this time it was my electronic translator, which also had a SD card!
I keep all my camera equipment on my person, but apparently customs is very keen on checking digital media/data cards of any type. Maybe only a question of time before random searches of laptops and camera cards are made with carry-on luggage? AFAIK, bringing porn in or out of FSU is still illegal, even if it is homemade with your girlfriend or rent-a-girl...
Explorer69
08-28-08, 19:01
There is cheap and expensive in both cities (depending on your definition of cheap and expensive I suppose) and Odessa's prices are seasonal (higher in summer), but the major differences are:
1) Kiev has many more options
2) Kiev has the better-looking PROS
3) Odessa pros are always in danger of falling into drug scene
4) Kiev pro scene everywhere, sometimes English-speaking and always available
5) Odessa pro scene largely underground and sometimes difficult to access without connections/numbers
In terms of just pros, I'd always choose Kiev over Odessa.
Just my 2 cents, I am sure there are guys out there with more pro experience in both cities that can add some info.I absolutely agree. But more of the pros in Odessa are not really pros, they just do a trick now and then to add a little to their economy - and some of them may then become real "girlfriends" or sponsored girls.
Odessa is full of freebies. All you have to do is be foreign and they will literally attack you. Next step: your flat and a great sex session and all for free, no money. What a wonderful city!
Doctor_Skank
08-29-08, 08:06
Odessa is full of freebies. All you have to do is be foreign and they will literally attack you. Next step: your flat and a great sex session and all for free, no money. What a wonderful city!Jeez NoLies, what is your issue? Why don't you write us an essay about how you hate Ukrainian and Moldovan women and why?
Did they give you the clap or something?
Explorer69
08-29-08, 15:23
Odessa is full of freebies. All you have to do is be foreign and they will literally attack you. Next step: your flat and a great sex session and all for free, no money. What a wonderful city!This is nonsense! Odessa is a great city in many ways, but it is not an easy city for freebees. You need to spend some time there and get under the surface. This has been written again and again in this forum. However, when you get under the surface and spend some time there, there are some great bonuses.
LifeSavour
08-31-08, 07:22
... AFAIK, ...
WTF is AFAIK?
Not in the 'list'!
Doctor_Skank
09-01-08, 14:40
WTF is AFAIK?
Not in the 'list'!As far as I know...
Odessa is full of freebies. All you have to do is be foreign and they will literally attack you. Next step: your flat and a great sex session and all for free, no money. What a wonderful city!I will be visiting the Crim for the 1st time.
Is this true?
I am very excited.
Reiner Otto
09-02-08, 00:10
I will be visiting the Crim for the 1st time.
Is this true?
I am very excited.
Crimea is a waste of time, now ! Universities and schools started again.
Only in case you are looking for a serious relationship, you have chances now, because the single mothers with young children now take advantage of low season prices and not so high temperatures.
Explorer69
09-02-08, 00:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolies
Odessa is full of freebies. All you have to do is be foreign and they will literally attack you. Next step: your flat and a great sex session and all for free, no money. What a wonderful city!
I will be visiting the Crim for the 1st time.
Is this true?
I am very excited.NO, no, this is just stupid!! As stated sooo often, Odessa is not an easy city for freebees, pls read the threads on Odessa. But Odessa is great, but nothing like this stupid comment by Nolies - totally arong!
I think Nolies is known for this kind of humour.
LifeSavour
09-03-08, 06:55
Many guys in Kyiv are "armed". My 'mobile phone JailBreaker' Victor told me you can carry a 4mm with no registration OR licensing required!
Just yesterday I needed to get from Lesi Ukransky st to Mandarin Plaza, a short walk but I was too lazy after the beer and cognac with some buddies.
So I waved a car down, got in and gave location. Now mind you this guy was going that way anyway and as we approached I mentioned / offered 10 uah.
This is when it got interesting, he countered with 15 trying to explain that they had minimum fares. Fuck that, I said you are not a taxi (I wouldn't of got in with no settling the fare if it was), he then pulled his taxi light/sign up from the floor and showed me. I laughed and told him that the ride was worth 5 and he was lucky I was even giving him 10. Then he informed he. Actually glared and demanded 20.
This is when I told him in no uncertain terms he was a fucking durok, and gave honest Ukrainians (? ) a bad name! I opened the door gave him 10 which he ripped into 3 peices and threw it out the window. I WAS IMPRESSED.
As I got out he immediately followed and came after me, now I knew he was serious as I am 6'6". 300 lbs. And an ex wrestler. As I turned, thats when I saw the pistol in his hand, not pointing it, but it was there. Frak, this was 2 in the afternoon! I simply turned and yelled "privet" to 2 guys I did not know, as if they were my pals and walked away from Taxi Durok towards them never looking back and then into the entrance of Mandarin. This can be a very crazy city / country.
Guys, be safe out there.
LS Guy
Bez Bezarra
09-04-08, 02:22
i waved a car down, offered 10 uah.
i told him he was a fucking durok, he immediately followed and i saw the pistol in his hand.
i know many dyevs who will not wave down cabs or even call them, because they have been robbed and or raped in the past.
if cab riders all start packing, won't it quickly turn onto the wild west?
or is it already?
i know many dyevs who will not wave down cabs or even call them, because they have been robbed and or raped in the past.
if cab riders all start packing, won't it quickly turn onto the wild west?
or is it already?
try getting into the back of a car for a lift, feeling something under your feet, reaching down and lifting up an ak, wild west.... nah try wild east!
and god don't we love it!
Markharding
09-13-08, 11:28
I will be visiting the Crim for the 1st time.
Is this true?
I am very excited.Crimea, especially Yalta, is a big waste of time. Every westerner who has been there can tell you this. It is worth than western cities. The girls are very hostile towards westerners and other foreigners.
Many girls are looking for summer romance, this is true, but it is with the rich local Ukrainians and Russians. Even if you are a rich westerner with tons of cash to splah, the girls are not interested in your English language, French, Spanish, Italian, German. Even if you speak Russian, the girls treat you with suspision, that either (1) you are married to a Russian. Or (2) you simply learned the language to help you in your sex tourism. So it is a hopeless situation.
How many times we have to shout this out loud for fellow mongers to understand this? ! It is not only money and time at stake, it is also your dignity, because girls and the people in general will insult you in your face.
This area has made a complete 180 degree turn from the days of pre-2003, when the girls were hunting foreigners (I think foreighers have done these girls so much wrong, that the girls have come back hard at them).
Please save your money and time and do not make the foolish mistake of visiting the Crimea, Yalta in particular, and probably the Ukraine in general.
Thank you for reading.
Reiner Otto
09-13-08, 20:13
Crimea, especially Yalta, is a big waste of time. Every westerner who has been there can tell you this. It is worth than western cities. The girls are very hostile towards westerners and other foreigners.
Might be correct for Yalta, have not been there this year.
Visited Feodossia and Evpatoria, instead. Different story.
May be, because there are the "not so well-off" girls, because Yalta is an expensive place nowadays.
Probably only the girls, scamming quite a few Westerners, can afford to go there during season, so they are targeting the local Elite.
In the smaller places on Crimea a lot of girls from Moldova and Belorussia, because of low budget.
But only July-August, of course.
AColonizer
09-13-08, 20:37
Thanks,
I think you are right. Unfortunately, all the world has changed since 2003, this is a trouble for girl mongers but, above all, for who is looking for serious and lasting relationships. I am persuaded about a Russian girl wrote me "girls want physical and financial strong men". No Martini no party, no money no girl! Or rise of the machines, rise of the women.
Crimea, especially Yalta, is a big waste of time. Every westerner who has been there can tell you this. It is worth than western cities. The girls are very hostile towards westerners and other foreigners.
Many girls are looking for summer romance, this is true, but it is with the rich local Ukrainians and Russians. Even if you are a rich westerner with tons of cash to splah, the girls are not interested in your English language, French, Spanish, Italian, German. Even if you speak Russian, the girls treat you with suspision, that either (1) you are married to a Russian. Or (2) you simply learned the language to help you in your sex tourism. So it is a hopeless situation.
How many times we have to shout this out loud for fellow mongers to understand this? ! It is not only money and time at stake, it is also your dignity, because girls and the people in general will insult you in your face.
This area has made a complete 180 degree turn from the days of pre-2003, when the girls were hunting foreigners (I think foreighers have done these girls so much wrong, that the girls have come back hard at them).
Please save your money and time and do not make the foolish mistake of visiting the Crimea, Yalta in particular, and probably the Ukraine in general.
Thank you for reading.
Does anybody know it is easy to buy a train ticket between Kiev and vinnitsa without reservation in kiev airport after arrival?
I'm sure there are guys much more experienced in train travel in the Ukraine then me. But I have spent a lot of time in train stations picking/dropping girls off. :)
As long as you aren't traveling during a major holiday or something like that you should be able to buy a ticket that day or the day before you travel. Try buying a ticket at the central train station in Kyiv (if you speak Russian), you can take the metro there. I'm sure there are brokers in the center too. If you want to western union me about $800 I'll come to Kyiv and do it for you. :)
Does anybody know it is easy to buy a train ticket between Kiev and vinnitsa without reservation in kiev airport after arrival?It is sure that you will find train ticket when you arrive at the train station.The good news is that you will not have to wait about 1 hour in the line to buy it as was the case before 2003.
Reiner Otto
10-06-08, 11:14
Does anybody know it is easy to buy a train ticket between Kiev and vinnitsa without reservation in kiev airport after arrival?
You can buy on shortest term just in the Railway Station.
Unless some kind of holdidays, then it might be problem.
Emergency solution: In case, sold out, go to the train, and bribe the conductors controlling the tickets at the entry to the carriage. Only a question of $, they sell their own seats to you. In worst case, because the trip is about 3h max, you might be able to stand/sit in the walking area.
So no need to worry.
You can check the connections already in advance:
www.bahn.de
From (Von): Kiev
To (Nach): Vinnica
These time tables are very reliable.
It is very detail wonderful info. Thanks
You can buy on shortest term just in the Railway Station.
Unless some kind of holdidays, then it might be problem.
Emergency solution: In case, sold out, go to the train, and bribe the conductors controlling the tickets at the entry to the carriage. Only a question of $, they sell their own seats to you. In worst case, because the trip is about 3h max, you might be able to stand/sit in the walking area.
So no need to worry.
You can check the connections already in advance:
www.bahn.de
From (Von): Kiev
To (Nach): Vinnica
These time tables are very reliable.
I am new, having done most of my traving in Asia. Could someone tell me where the best action for the lowest price is right now in eastern Europe. I like the look but don't really care if she is Russian, Romanian or whatever?
Thanks!
AColonizer
10-12-08, 20:37
My friend, master monger in Eastern Europe, suggested to me:
1 - Czech girls
2 - Russian/Ukrainian girls
10 - Romanian girls, very bad attitude
I am new having done my of my traving in Asia. Clould someone tell me where the best action for the lowest price is right now in eastern Europe. I like the look but don't really care if she is Russian, Romanian or whatever?
Thanks!
Thank you Alconizer. But what about affordability. Which countries have the lowest costs for rooms, food, bars and ladies?
Drakkar,
The richer a woman is, the higher her expectations, her standoffishness, her snobbism and her nose!
The poorer, the more humble, modest, aproachable, nice!
So, make your own conclusions!
What many people seem to have lost here is that most deals here are doen in dollars not grevna so $100 will stay $100, not change against the exchange rate. They just always expect the GRVN equivalent. so as of today try 700 grevna!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quick question guys.
I'm off to Kiev for the first time next month. A lot of posts mention paying in US dollars. Is this just for comparison purposes or are US dollars accepted / expected?
Thanks
LifeSavour
11-21-08, 16:15
Man, it is getting bad here. Just under the surface. Like a boiling pot of thick soup (surface seems calm).
Called on a business today about my rental. 200 people 45 days ago. 80 now!
Another contact. 20% gone last Monday.
Nothing is moving in real estate. No one is even working on 'job sites'.
People that have committed to loans in USD are fucked. There isn't any USD here.
Flats and offices will soon be sitting empty. Another friend, she lives off here rental income from a flat in Kyiv and a 'garage'. About $1,500 a month. As of the 15th dec. Both gone. Businesses that were in there are closed!
It is going down fast.
Euro, USD or local is fine for pro's.
I've paid with USD's in shops that didn't take CC's but don't expect a good exchange rate.
Man, it is getting bad here. Just under the surface. Like a boiling pot of thick soup (surface seems calm).
Called on a business today about my rental. 200 people 45 days ago. 80 now! ....
Nothing is moving in real estate. No one is even working on 'job sites'.
People that have committed to loans in USD are fucked. There isn't any USD here.
Flats and offices will soon be sitting empty. Another friend, she lives off here rental income from a flat in Kyiv and a 'garage'. About $1,500 a month. As of the 15th dec. Both gone. Businesses that were in there are closed!
It is going down fast.I get the gist of what you are saying, but let me see if I understand your first example. You have a rental property. You spoke to a rental agency. They told you that 45 days ago they had 200 people renting apartments through them. Now they have only 80 people renting.
Lifesavour: what do you mean? We don't understand you.
LifeSavour
11-23-08, 14:46
I get the gist of what you are saying, but let me see if I understand your first example. You have a rental property. You spoke to a rental agency. They told you that 45 days ago they had 200 people renting apartments through them. Now they have only 80 people renting.No, it is a business that was renting. About 6 people were in this office, they are part of a large company. I asked why they were moving and she said.
200 employees and now 120 of them were let go!
Most everyone that has a salary went from 100% one day to 70 or 80%, 20 to 30% reduction OVERNIGHT!
LifeSavour
11-28-08, 14:28
OK, this economy is TOAST! The UAH is sitting around 700 to $100 usd.
But that is artificially held LOW for the time being. Mark my words, some of my 'students' that are in the know are predicting 1500 in the near term. 2009!
People here all took credit in USD, as the interest was lower. 500 to 1500 uah to the USD, 3 times larger loan payment.
Bye bye flat & car & even washing machine. They are CREDIT crazy here.
Yes it's all doom and gloom........
But look on the bright side...... the girls still look as good... and the cost of Getting into their knickers is for sure comming down!
I don't know why anyone reading this board is surprised. I called it two years ago. :P
The real estate market was just responding to conditions and everyones (locals) bizarre (well I understand) desire to live in Kyiv. And the fact that only business people and sexpats come to Kyiv who are willing to pay out the nose.
The banking thing was a calculated set up started about 2-3 years.
Ukraine still holds the recorded for highest inflation. Let's see if they can break that this year.
LifeSavour
11-29-08, 16:54
It amazes locals at how many locations in Kyiv I have lived since 2003. Zhukova, Heroes Cosmos, Heroes Stalingrada, Druzhba Narodiv & moved to Druzhba Narodiv, Poznaky, Vittuchina, prospect Myra & now Urlovskaya!
My partying and GIRLS get me thrown out regularly.
So I have an eye to the rental market (why the F didn't I buy in 2000, or 2003), it was funny to see owners redo their rental ads from USD into quoting Grivna when it plunged into the lower mid 400s.
This weekend I will have a 'pow wow' with my owner about a different RATE. He wants USD, OK. I was paying around 500 per usd to the tune of $1000 usd a month. Last month when it went to 720 it killed me!
The problem with trying to haggle with these people is that they cannot see past their NOSE. They will let a place sit empty asking for top $$ (and lose) instead of taking what is available NOW at a decent price. Same as TAXI drivers. They will sit for 3 hours to get that 1 ex-pat to give 100 uah for a ride that is 50. When they could of gotten 5 rides in that same time!
DUROCKs!
LifeSavour
11-29-08, 17:05
I don't know why anyone reading this board is surprised. I called it two years ago. :P
The real estate market was just responding to conditions and everyones (locals) bizarre (well I understand) desire to live in Kyiv. And the fact that only business people and sexpats come to Kyiv who are willing to pay out the nose.
The banking thing was a calculated set up started about 2-3 years.
Ukraine still holds the recorded for highest inflation. Let's see if they can break that this year.Called what? The real estate market? Bizarre. Hmmm, why did Kyiv grow from 2. 5 to almost 5 million? Simple! WAGES & SALARIES! Nothing Bizarre about that. Why does a taxi guy drive in NYC and not some suburb?
Umm, look around Kyiv at the sheer number of 22 to 28 year olds riding transport. Huge numbers. They are here working OR now trying to find NEW work! Not only business people.
If the bank thing was calculated, they are way smarter than I give them credit for. Certainly the UA economy has been tied to the USD. But now look at the rate for EURO's. 808 today!
AColonizer
11-29-08, 22:39
Yes, Lifesavour, that' true! Also add, girls have no respect for foreigners. Sillyness and arrogance. This is the reason for what I suggest not to waste money and not to be a gentleman in Kiev.
Sevastopol1
11-29-08, 23:09
You understand this and I understand this!
But do you understand Russian mentality????????????????????
I have a similar prob to you, but as a young man said to me nearly 4 years ago " you may one day speak perfect Russian but you will never understand Russian mentality. Sorry for much bad English but it is Saturday night in Sevastopol!
It amazes locals at how many locations in Kyiv I have lived since 2003. Zhukova, Heroes Cosmos, Heroes Stalingrada, Druzhba Narodiv & moved to Druzhba Narodiv, Poznaky, Vittuchina, prospect Myra & now Urlovskaya!
My partying and GIRLS get me thrown out regularly.
So I have an eye to the rental market (why the F didn't I buy in 2000, or 2003), it was funny to see owners redo their rental ads from USD into quoting Grivna when it plunged into the lower mid 400s.
This weekend I will have a 'pow wow' with my owner about a different RATE. He wants USD, OK. I was paying around 500 per usd to the tune of $1000 usd a month. Last month when it went to 720 it killed me!
The problem with trying to haggle with these people is that they cannot see past their NOSE. They will let a place sit empty asking for top $$ (and lose) instead of taking what is available NOW at a decent price. Same as TAXI drivers. They will sit for 3 hours to get that 1 ex-pat to give 100 uah for a ride that is 50. When they could of gotten 5 rides in that same time!
DUROCKs!
I don't know why anyone reading this board is surprised. I called it two years ago. :P
The real estate market was just responding to conditions and everyones (locals) bizarre (well I understand) desire to live in Kyiv. And the fact that only business people and sexpats come to Kyiv who are willing to pay out the nose.
The banking thing was a calculated set up started about 2-3 years.
Ukraine still holds the recorded for highest inflation. Let's see if they can break that this year.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this one, Cruiser.
You've been laying down a marker about the unsustainability of the prevailing economic situation in Kiev/Ukraine for some time now.
Things are going to be very interesting from here on in...
Reiner Otto
11-30-08, 10:29
Crash in real estate market here in the province (Nikolaev) already started. I see quite a few ads already on Sovyetskaya, the central walking area, that business property in 1a-location is for sale or rent. Real estate agency in center is "For rent" now :-)
Expecting such a crash already for a year now, simply based upon the unreal prices, now I am afraid, it might become even worse than 1998. Cause at that time, some business/capital inflow from abroad could compensate or help to recover, at least in SPb.
But not this time, because even the West is economically damaged.
Banks will crash in UA soon, because in deep debt, and most likely undefinanced according to rules of IWF. This will result in no new credit from them.
And no new credit from private Western Banks either.
Shrinking economy AND the necessity to pay back some expensive US$-credits will increase private credit defaults, putting even more stress on the UA-banks.
From a bank guy I just heared, credit for cars up to 25% interest rate, for real estate 30% in UHA. So new business simply comes to screaming stop.
For simple people, only the fact, that actually the possibilitity to force a sale of private property because of credit default is very difficult, will help for some time. Until laws are changed ....
When already now officially a reduction in real estate prices of about 25% for next year is expected, for my opinion this is standard political optimism.
from abroad could compensate or help to recover, at least in SPb.
But not this time, because even the West is economically damaged.
Banks will crash in UA soon, because in deep debt, and most likely undefinanced according to rules of IWF.Otto,
I'm a little confused by the abbreviations. I know that the group that controls the banks is the IWF. The International Wildlife Foundation. That's why it's called a bear market.
But what is the SPb?
Moliere
You understand this and I understand this!
But do you understand Russian mentality?
I have a similar problem to you, but as a young man said to me nearly 4 years ago " you may one day speak perfect Russian but you will never understand Russian mentality.Sevastopol,
Maybe you and I met the same young man four years ago! But I told him that I am rather stupid and always like to win an argument and have the last word. So I pointed out that although he speaks some English, he will never understand the American mentality.
Moliere
Reiner Otto
11-30-08, 18:20
Otto,
I'm a little confused by the abbreviations. I know that the group that controls the banks is the IWF. The International Wildlife Foundation. That's why it's called a bear market.
But what is the SPb?
Moliere
SPb: St. Petersburg, Russia. I lived there between 1998 and 2003, although not permanently, because still having a good job in Germany :-)
Of course people want to live in the 'big city' to make it big. Rather an age old adage. Everyone flocked to Kyiv from Shitholia and it drove Left Bank prices up. Business people started coming to Kyiv in numbers and it drove rental prices for the western places. I'll be happy to start renting a one bedroom western place in the center for 1k again.
Life, not too many Ukrainian banks are owned by Ukrainians anymore - go figure. They saw what was coming and unloaded them on mostly Euro banks who were more then happy to buy them up during the 'buy buy buy expand over extend' era.
Umm, look around Kyiv at the sheer number of 22 to 28 year olds riding transport. Huge numbers. They are here working OR now trying to find NEW work! Not only business people.
If the bank thing was calculated, they are way smarter than I give them credit for. Certainly the UA economy has been tied to the USD. But now look at the rate for EURO's. 808 today!
AColonizer
12-01-08, 10:20
OK, guys, after your economical reports, what do you think about Euro cash deposited in Ukrainian banks?
Is that money in danger?
Street Sleuth
12-01-08, 16:26
The problem with trying to haggle with these people is that they cannot see past their NOSE. They will let a place sit empty asking for top $$ (and lose) instead of taking what is available NOW at a decent price. Same as TAXI drivers. They will sit for 3 hours to get that 1 ex-pat to give 100 uah for a ride that is 50. When they could of gotten 5 rides in that same time!
DUROCKs!
Exactly. Which is why, for us foreign types seeking to gain from the financial downturn in Ukraine, it will take some time - prices will remain lofty for at least 3 months, probably more like 6, before it sinks in that the current prices aren't sustainable (referring mainly to prices of: taxis, apartments, restaurants, girls.....).
As with the apartment rental/taxi conundrum you mention, there is the more pertinent RP pricing conundrum - girls will continue to deman what were unreasonable/unsustainable prices for months to come - only when they are on the verge of starvation will they finally cut their rates. In the meantime, they are perfectly content going home empty handed, night after night after night, with never a thought as to, "gee, I wonder why I can't get any more clients anymore"
Reiner Otto
12-01-08, 23:07
OK, guys, after your economical reports, what do you think about Euro cash deposited in Ukrainian banks?
Is that money in danger?
I would never ever dare it this period of time. The interest rates they are offering are very seductive, but we in Germany had the best President of our Central bank saying:
" I would offer you any percentage as interest rate, which you want. In case, I do not need to pay back your money ..."
I see many banks at risk here in UA; better buy some cheap US or JP stocks :-)
Absolutely right. And if the advice of Otto and the German central banker are not enough to convince you, think of this...
When the Ukraine banking system crashes -- and you are holding dollars outside the country -- think of how powerful and valuable those dollars will be.
LifeSavour
12-02-08, 07:11
Life, not too many Ukrainian banks are owned by Ukrainians anymore.Do you have any idea how many banks are here? Almost weekly it seems another one 'pops' up! I like this one. "THE BANK", pretty certain it is Ukrainian owned!
End of 2006 there were 193 banks! 30% of these were owned bythe major players in the world. The majority are still owned locally!
And many of these are going to go 'bye bye'.
2 main risks: One is the increasing liquidity risk. Most of the bank liabilities are short-term deposits and current accounts, while most assets are mortgages and other long and medium-term loans.
The second is an increasing currency risk. While most loans are taken in US dollars, most deposits are made in the local currency. This is because the interest rate for dollar loans is 1. 5 times lower than for the grivna ones, while the exchange rate HAD remained virtually unchanged in the past years. Any devaluation of the grivna will cause a credit crisis, as many borrowers with grivna-denominated incomes will find it hard to meet obligations.
Welcome to 2009!
If the grivna goes to 15, I believe the government will have to step in, maybe G. W. Can come and be a 'consultant' for them?
Street, panic is already hitting the streets. It's not going to take 'months' it's happening now.
Life, all the major Ukrainian banks aren't owned by Ukrainians anymore. You need to start dating female bank managers and not tellers. :)
If the UAH goes to 15 the government will have to step in? Wowie zowie, where have you been the last few months. The government has already stepped in. You sure you live in Kyiv? :P
Yeah, their major assets are hyper over inflated real estate mortgages. Where can I sign up to buy stock?
OK, it's fun to revel in the falling grivna, but economic prognostication is not the purpose of the forum.
You might all try a different forum www.expatua.com
They are much better informed about UA finance, and then you guys can stick to sex.
The key word is major, yes theres loads of small banks in Ukraine, most of the majors are now foreign owned, bar about three that spring to mind.
But all the smaller ones are really personal banks for people or groups of people to............. well you can all guess.
Some of the smaller ones are also foreign owned for the same reasons due to the very lapse banking laws as into ownership, adn its ever so nice to own your own bank is it not? ;)
Yep the Ukraine government has been stepping in for the last 5 years at least, but now they are out of money, stand back and see the grevna re- align very quickly..... 15 not this year at least! :)
Reiner Otto
12-03-08, 16:24
Where can I sign up to buy stock?
www.etrade.com
LifeSavour
12-03-08, 22:11
The key word is major. The Ukraine government has been stepping in for the last 5 years at least, but now they are out of money. Ummm. I have been coming here since Nov. 2000, the grivna has been supported since then AND probably before! I was not referring to 'propping' the weak UAH. I even commented maybe G. W. Could come and consult.
The govt. Will have to come in and perform some sort of 'bailout'. There are just too many POWERFUL bank owners, too many flats, to many $100, 000 cars, that will BE foreclosed on. Then what.
There will some sort of 'agreement' on how these "high=end" locals will be able to pay off their car loan, million $ home, with out losing them!
Its back to reality for these Ukrainian people who just 1 year ago couldn't believe that their Soviet-built appartment, given to them free by the state was now worth 100.000-300.000 euros (maybe more in central Kiev).
These flats cost the soviet government less than 1000$ to built. What a plus-value! The average European-American is struggling to pay enormous mortgages to obtain the European/American dream of owning a home. While the average East european owns a home given to him free of charge and now (well maybe not anymore) worth huge money.
Isn't life ironic?
Reiner Otto
12-03-08, 23:45
The govt. Will have to come in and perform some sort of 'bailout'. There are just too many POWERFUL bank owners, too many flats, to many $100, 000 cars, that will BE foreclosed on. Then what.
May be, you are right. But then the common people will be screwed. Which is not so unusual, of course.
Because government could only print money for a short-term bailout. $-reserves are not big enough any more, credit from another country or IWF ? NO GO.
Any locals would buy state-obligations ? I doubt it.
So do some nightshifts on the printing machine.
LS, yeah, I don't think the Ukrainian government is going to be bailing anyone out (if they even could) that just isn't the way business is done over there. You 'uck up, you are on your own. Did they even accept that IMF loan? You sure you've been there since 2000? :P
Darkar, okay! Why don't you fly to Kyiv and answer your own questions for us.
Moliere, the so called experts are the one's who lead us down this path. And besides, I don't hold anyone elses council for my economic predictions. So far I've been doing well.
Bez Bezarra
12-04-08, 04:36
Nobody gives a shit about this.
Taint pussy talk.
A hottie on the street toss ass salad at half price?
Banks or Bonks?
I'll tell ya, Nolies' comment needs a nomination for head so far up his ass he can see Sarah Palin's house from Siberia, when he whimpered that every average Ivan was given a free home worth huge money????
Son, for every so called fashionable apartment on the Kreschatik, there's another 200 more crumbling ol' gray rat traps out in the projects, whose only value is the desperate dyevochka scratching so deep in poverty that she'll suck my nasty dick for a few kopeks, and then skulk quietly in to church to get all the crusty jizz forgiven wiped clean confessing her "profession" to the kiddie buggering bishop in his booth rectory.
Bezz,
Leave your american-minority slang where you got it from (probably the ghetto of Detroit or Bronx). Start to write in proper english and rush to an "Introductory Economics" class ASAP.
A flast even in the most remote suburb of Kiev still costs mucho $$.
Bezz,
Leave your american-minority slang where you got it from (probably the ghetto of Detroit or Bronx). Start to write in proper english and rush to an "Introductory Economics" class ASAP.
A flast even in the most remote suburb of Kiev still costs mucho $$.
Mucho Dollero? how much is alot?
http://www.arcoreal.com.ua/flatRealty.php?id=135943
http://www.arcoreal.com.ua/flatRealty.php?id=155918
http://www.arcoreal.com.ua/flatRealty.php?id=156237
And in the current market I expect at least 30% off the listed prices!
Theres thousands of them.................
And For your info, most of the apartments in the city centre where lived in by managers and influential people, not normal people anyway, and they had been stealing from the system for years already by 1995, and the "free" pad on Kreshatic was just a nice addition to there portfolio of property all over the world.
Mucho Dollero? how much is alot?
http://www.arcoreal.com.ua/flatRealty.php?id=135943
http://www.arcoreal.com.ua/flatRealty.php?id=155918
http://www.arcoreal.com.ua/flatRealty.php?id=156237
And in the current market I expect at least 30% off the listed prices!
Theres thousands of them.Qjump,
I followed the link to the web site of Arco Real Estate. The girl pictured as the agent for the apartment is very pretty, but her price was not shown on the site. Should I just call the office and ask her price for a night?
And what about that 30% off?
Moliere
Bez Bezarra
12-05-08, 12:57
Bez Leave
you minority
you ghetto writer
rush to class ASAP.
the most remote suburb of Kiev still costs mucho $$.
Dig this rasta jai, mo-fo-son-bia! Iree will be dammin your mojo so the curlies and the shorties will be forgettin you, ya dam white bread devils!
Just try eatin a peach, when ya choppers are rottin out ya face, bradda!
I put the curse o the baddest mo fo of 'em all on ya house and ya roots, den even da whole bottel o Viagra won't be stiffin ya memba, in da nite wit cha honies n ho's.
May all ya days be marred wit fat cows and complainin' muddas-in-law, and ya end up in the barz hotel with plexico and his ilk!
Ya no good I say, ya rotten to da core! Dam be ya, ta hell!!
And have a nice day.
Has anyone notice an uptick in availability on singles. Ru or the other dating web sites? A significant increase in the number of attractive 20-24 years looking for sponsors and noting an acceptable age range of 30-50 years?
Maybe it's just my imagination or wishful thinking, but when I logged in today after about 10 days absence, I was fairly blown away.
Or is this a seasonal issue in Kiev that you have seen every year? Young women wanting the money to go skiing in the Carpathians or finance a winter break at Sharm-el-Sheik?
Gentleman Travel
12-09-08, 17:08
Has anyone notice an uptick in availability on singles. Ru or the other dating web sites? A significant increase in the number of attractive 20-24 years looking for sponsors and noting an acceptable age range of 30-50 years?
Maybe it's just my imagination or wishful thinking, but when I logged in today after about 10 days absence, I was fairly blown away.
Or is this a seasonal issue in Kiev that you have seen every year? Young women wanting the money to go skiing in the Carpathians or finance a winter break at Sharm-el-Sheik?
Also you can now find girls listing English and other language skills.
Back in May I did a survey, checking hundreds of profiles and found NONE that bothered to list English as a second language.
Today, a casual survery of Moscow girls on Mamba shows about 20% listing English, plus other languages.
International mongers are once again becoming a market force as Boris and Yuri can no longer afford to
keep the girls in the style to which they briefly aspired!
Reiner Otto
12-09-08, 23:37
Also you can now find girls listing English and other language skills.
Back in May I did a survey, checking hundreds of profiles and found NONE that bothered to list English as a second language.
Keep cool. May be, they just restart the scam-game again :-)
However, here in Nikolaev at least I have the impression, that the girls in the cafes and discos seem to be more interested in foreigners compared to recent past.
They find me :-).
But our situation will still improove, I bet !
Bez Bezarra
12-10-08, 13:08
How high will it go?
How long will it last?
Since I won't be going back until the summer, should I buy $2000 worth of Grivna now, at the current rate, and stash it until my next trip?
Same question about rubles, should I buy two or three thousand dollars worth now, or simply wait until I go this summer?
How high will it go?
How long will it last?
Since I won't be going back until the summer, should I buy $2000 worth of Grivna now, at the current rate, and stash it until my next trip?
Same question about rubles, should I buy two or three thousand dollars worth now, or simply wait until I go this summer?Wait! 100%
LifeSavour
12-11-08, 10:26
How high will it go?
How long will it last?
Since I won't be going back until the summer, should I buy $2000 worth of Grivna now, at the current rate, and stash it until my next trip?
Same question about rubles, should I buy two or three thousand dollars worth now, or simply wait until I go this summer?And where in USA would ya get it? The grivna going UP compared to the $$ means it is 'devaluing'
Just bring your dollars. Duh! We won't see 6. 0 to the $ in a very long time!
Bez Bezarra
12-11-08, 13:13
100%
Wait for what?
For how long?
Why?
DJ FourMoney
12-11-08, 13:30
Bezz,
Leave your american-minority slang where you got it from (probably the ghetto of Detroit or Bronx). Start to write in proper english and rush to an "Introductory Economics" class ASAP.
A flast even in the most remote suburb of Kiev still costs mucho $$.
ROFL, Bez keeps it real gee.... What's wrong with Minority (read: Black and Latino) Slang homie???
Keep cool. May be, they just restart the scam-game again :-)
However, here in Nikolaev at least I have the impression, that the girls in the cafes and discos seem to be more interested in foreigners compared to recent past.
Reiner Otto,
What do you mean "restart the scam-game again" ? You make it sound as though some good scam was stopped for a while and will now restart.
You can't possibly mean that the girls were so disdainful of foreigners that they had even given up trying to scam them.
Moliere
According to the CIA fact book, the 2007 average income was $7000, this would allow @ 36% for a mortgage payment of $2520 per year or $210 per month.
$210 per month does not get you a $300,000 condo.
Population growth is slightly negative and the economy was growing at 7%, so it will be long time before joe or jane six pack can afford a mortgage of $1500 a month.
At $7000 a year the average monthly salary would be $583 before taxes etc...People entering the workforce may be earning less on average since they are at the bottom of the salary ladder.
Real unemployment rate was at 7% in 2007, so the girls don't have to have the money. They need it for buying expensive foreign goods and vacations. Oops, forgot they are all med students that need the money for tuition.
The full time pros can get by on one or two tricks a week if they are still asking $100 US.
If Ukraine is going to print their way out of the problem, like the US is starting to do, the currency may collapse. Didn't the WSJ run an article on how the locals in the Ukraine wont hold the local currency and want dollars/eoros now?
As things tighten up, and depending on the ability to maintain anonymity, expect to see more and better looking part timer girls at more reasonable prices.
As long as the govt keeps the thugs under control, a lot more girls will step forward to maintain their lifestyle while keeping their current jobs.
The part timers like to work indoors for anonymity, are there privates or anything like an FKK in the Ukraine?
My opinion
Thursday, December 11, 2008
1 US Dollar = 7.70422 Ukraine Hryvnia
1 Ukraine Hryvnia (UAH) = 0.12980 US Dollar (USD)
Sunday, December 2, 2007
1 US Dollar = 5.18050 Ukraine Hryvnia
1 Ukraine Hryvnia (UAH) = 0.19303 US Dollar (USD)
According to the CIA fact book, the 2007 average income was $7000....
Pluto2,
Nice tidy little analysis. Thanks. It's good to see we're getting some value from the CIA.
One statement that I don't follow. You wrote that with unemployment at 7% the girls don't need the money. Are you saying, most everyone who wants to work already has a job?
Moliere
I generally meet girls through the two big dating sites Single.ru (with its variations) and loveplanet.ua (with its variations). Both of them have a category of "fictitious marriage" that some of the girls check off.
Can anyone give a good idea what the girls are really looking for here?
Of course, in VERY rare instances someone may give the girls a sum of money that they will use to pay an American to marry them in Ukraine so they can emigrate to the US. I am assuming that it's much more common for them to earn their keep for a while rather than pay cash for such an arrangement. That would suit me fine since what I really want is a live-in for six months or so.
I started out thinking I could meet several women who listed themselves as wanting a sponsor and "regular sex together" as opposed to "sex for 1-2 times." But that has not been working. It seems they earn enough with X number of sponsors that they are not interested in moving in. (Let's put aside the question of whether I have poor manners or bad breath). If I'm already paying them $200 for overnight and I'm not willing to pay $2000 a month, the arithmetic doesn't seem to work for these girls.
So the real question for me is whether I should concentrate on those listing "fictitious marriage" if I want to find a live in. Opinions?
Gentleman Travel
12-11-08, 20:26
I generally meet girls through the two big dating sites Single.ru (with its variations) and loveplanet.ua (with its variations). Both of them have a category of "fictitious marriage" that some of the girls check off.
Can anyone give a good idea what the girls are really looking for here?
Of course, in VERY rare instances someone may give the girls a sum of money that they will use to pay an American to marry them in Ukraine so they can emigrate to the US. I am assuming that it's much more common for them to earn their keep for a while rather than pay cash for such an arrangement. That would suit me fine since what I really want is a live-in for six months or so....
So the real question for me is whether I should concentrate on those listing "fictitious marriage" if I want to find a live in. Opinions?
Is that the same thing as "marriage for the form" that Babelfish translates?
I have seen many discussions here about the dangers of actually going through with a marriage of convenience - the main one being losing half your assets in the divorce, or accusations of abuse. Better to find some other import scheme. Some countries have special rules for "au pair girls" or other domestic workers. Alternatively, maybe she could come as a student? Even sponsoring her full ticket for school might be cheaper than a costly divorce or immigration fraud problems.
LifeSavour
12-11-08, 22:05
Leading economic indicators vs trailing.
I often take the metro from the 'outskirts' to golden gate and need to transfer to the red line in center. Usually around 6pm.
3 months ago it was packed. Sardines even. And the next train had to stop and not open doors as there was no place for new people.
Now. It is down at least 50%. Maybe more. Why? (if ya can't figure this you flunk)
This is a leading indicator.
Trailing? Well, the price of pussy has begun to trickle down. But nothing like the metro riders. 4 months from now.
Happy days are here again.
Life 'professor' savour
Ps. I do have tenure 'd'!
Sevastopol1
12-11-08, 22:36
How high will it go?
How long will it last?
Since I won't be going back until the summer, should I buy $2000 worth of Grivna now, at the current rate, and stash it until my next trip?
Same question about rubles, should I buy two or three thousand dollars worth now, or simply wait until I go this summer?
Great questiom bez, wish I knew the answer, here in Sevastopol, you can buy a new merc (yes we now have an offical merc dealer here, I think around the big pocket area)at the exchange rate of 4.8ish to $1us drive past this adertisement every day, will go in and find out the real story tomorrow.
Watch this space (suspect a scam)!
sev
Sevastopol1
12-11-08, 22:42
You might see $ advertised here on the street! please try and buy them from the atm, the bank or the street seller! You might hava a problem!
Sev
According to the CIA fact book, the 2007 average income was $7000, this would allow @ 36% for a mortgage payment of $2520 per year or $210 per month.
$210 per month does not get you a $300,000 condo.
Population growth is slightly negative and the economy was growing at 7%, so it will be long time before joe or jane six pack can afford a mortgage of $1500 a month.
At $7000 a year the average monthly salary would be $583 before taxes etc...People entering the workforce may be earning less on average since they are at the bottom of the salary ladder.
Real unemployment rate was at 7% in 2007, so the girls don't have to have the money. They need it for buying expensive foreign goods and vacations. Oops, forgot they are all med students that need the money for tuition.
The full time pros can get by on one or two tricks a week if they are still asking $100 US.
If Ukraine is going to print their way out of the problem, like the US is starting to do, the currency may collapse. Didn't the WSJ run an article on how the locals in the Ukraine wont hold the local currency and want dollars/eoros now?
As things tighten up, and depending on the ability to maintain anonymity, expect to see more and better looking part timer girls at more reasonable prices.
As long as the govt keeps the thugs under control, a lot more girls will step forward to maintain their lifestyle while keeping their current jobs.
The part timers like to work indoors for anonymity, are there privates or anything like an FKK in the Ukraine?
My opinion
Thursday, December 11, 2008
1 US Dollar = 7.70422 Ukraine Hryvnia
1 Ukraine Hryvnia (UAH) = 0.12980 US Dollar (USD)
Sunday, December 2, 2007
1 US Dollar = 5.18050 Ukraine Hryvnia
1 Ukraine Hryvnia (UAH) = 0.19303 US Dollar (USD)
Wait for what?
For how long?
Why?
I was at dinner last night with a director of a small bank, all banks here are basing all projected figures on between 12 and 15 grvn to the dollar next year.
Hope that helps?
Is that the same thing as "marriage for the form" that Babelfish translates?
Yes, the phrases have about the same meaning as far as I can tell. Брак «для вида» and Фиктивный брак.
Any philologists out there who know for sure?
IMHO 7% Ukraine means:
*that new grads move home or share a house with a bunch of other young people while they look for a job or go for a masters. They put off buying the car or motorcycle and take the bus.
*If your factory lays you off, you may be out for a year or two. The kids get new socks for Christmas. Mom takes a job at the fast food joint or dad drives a cab off the books.
*The best restaurants are still busy, the good ones are slow and the weak ones dieing, the burger dives keep on trucking with $1 burgers. Pretty much the same in all types of retail, instead of a Benz maybe a Toyota or just some new tires and a tune up.
*People eat into their savings a bit if their income is off for entrepreneurs etc. A few fold the living ones get stronger with less competition.
Apparently the UPD are running stings on street walkers and sending letters to their parents to get them to retire. This is probably the biggest limiting factor on domestic supply at this point.
Ten years ago their was a criminal problem in Turkey etc.. and the Balkans, I don't know if this is really still a problem as all articles on the subject are at least ten years old. I'm guessing that the girls got smarter and just go to Germany or Czech instead.
In short, I don't think 7% is at the eating tree bark level that say 15 to 20% will bring about. If it hits this level you will see 60 YO street walkers charging $10-20 to buy food and the other unemployed people paying it. You will also see 10's at about $50, guess.
What does it mean in the US?
The Republican President abandons 500 years of market capitalism and moves towards socialism with bailouts for the owners of the Wall Street Firms who should have been zeroed out but are still getting dividends instead. etc etc etc
The FED makes 2 Trillion in secret loans to god knows who.
Bankrupt banks are allowed to stay open while they pretend to be solvent and continue to pay bonuses and dividends.
The Govt moves to a 1 T deficit for 2009
The UAW will get a 150B bail out in exchange for 150M in contributions to Obama and the Democrat party. Great return on pay to play.
Homeowners get massive tax hikes for local govt to give themselves their usual 5-7% pay raises, and refresh the losses in their pension plans, and continuing to use contractors that bill $200 Hr for union trades. Also contributors, pay to play.
The FEDS turn on the printing presses and begin to eliminate whats left of the value of the dollar; already down from 1975 gold @ $35 oz to $830 oz today a 95% debasing of the currency in 33 years with fiat money. Oil and real estate are about the same story as gold.
Pluto2,
Nice tidy little analysis. Thanks. It's good to see we're getting some value from the CIA.
One statement that I don't follow. You wrote that with unemployment at 7% the girls don't need the money. Are you saying, most everyone who wants to work already has a job?
Moliere
LifeSavour
12-13-08, 06:56
IMHO 7% Ukraine means:
*that new grads move home or share a house with a bunch of other young people .....I see about 40 to 60 new young, working '20 somethings' with University fegrees every 10 days... Even the ones working as an "economist" for example (umm, this is not like our term economist) THEY all either live at home OR live with 'neighbors'.
If NOT, then they are in a family flat or something of this nature with lower rent.
7% unemployment in Ukraine means nothing regarding difference to today's situation because since 10 years the unemployment stands at 7%.
What matters are the unemployment rate differences between the regions. (a double sword effect cause they increase immigration as well especially among young, beautiful women).
Yes, the phrases have about the same meaning as far as I can tell. Брак «для вида» and Фиктивный брак.
Any philologists out there who know for sure?
The first one is marriage "for appearances", the second fake marriage. I don't think there's too much difference. The point is, the concept is totally different from sponsorship as with fake marriage the Western man is usually trying to EARN money for a visa rather than spend it (on sex).
Yes, the phrases have about the same meaning as far as I can tell. Брак «для вида» and Фиктивный брак.
Any philologists out there who know for sure?
They mean exactly the same thing. This fictious marriage form is something meant for locals.
Primarily, it is tied into the residency permit.
Provincials get into such marriages in order to gain Kiev residency (or other major city residence) in order to obtain the notorious "propiska" for their internal passport.
While the "propiksa" has been legally terminted in Ukraine, it is still asked for and used by many bureaucrats and officials. With the "propiksa, they can live permanently in Kiev and get benefits legally and with only the usual hassles. Without it, it becomes very difficult for provincials in the city.
Reiner Otto
12-14-08, 20:30
Reiner Otto,
What do you mean "restart the scam-game again" ? You make it sound as though some good scam was stopped for a while and will now restart.
You can't possibly mean that the girls were so disdainful of foreigners that they had even given up trying to scam them.
Moliere
In recent past, local girls here were not so interested in short-term foreign tourists, compared to the times 2 or more years ago. Because they were afraid of spoiling their chances regarding well-off local guys for longer-term relationships. But now the number of well-off locals started to decrease, and so girls will start (again) to milk the foreigners. Even still maintaining their relationship with a local, if any. That I call "scam-game". Because that is still "reasonable" for the local guys (or even partners) to accept.
Reiner Otto
12-14-08, 20:31
7% unemployment in Ukraine means nothing regarding difference to today's situation because since 10 years the unemployment stands at 7%.
That will change soon. I read serious reports, that actually about 7,000 workers loose their jobs today in UA.
Reiner Otto
12-14-08, 20:39
How high will it go?
How long will it last?
Since I won't be going back until the summer, should I buy $2000 worth of Grivna now, at the current rate, and stash it until my next trip?
Keep the $ in your pocket. Exchange rate still going up.
Today I have seen about 7.7UHA/$
May be, to change a very few only for the taxi driver from the airport :-)
Bez Bezarra
12-14-08, 20:41
IMHO 7% Ukraine means:
*that new grads move home or share a house with a bunch of other young people while they look for a job or go for a masters. They put off buying the car or motorcycle and take the bus.
*If your factory lays you off, you may be out for a year or two. The kids get new socks for Christmas. Mom takes a job at the fast food joint or dad drives a cab off the books.
*The best restaurants are still busy, the good ones are slow and the weak ones dieing, the burger dives keep on trucking with $1 burgers. Pretty much the same in all types of retail, instead of a Benz maybe a Toyota or just some new tires and a tune up.
*People eat into their savings a bit if their income is off for entrepreneurs etc. A few fold the living ones get stronger with less competition.
Apparently the UPD are running stings on street walkers and sending letters to their parents to get them to retire. This is probably the biggest limiting factor on domestic supply at this point.
Ten years ago their was a criminal problem in Turkey etc.. and the Balkans, I don't know if this is really still a problem as all articles on the subject are at least ten years old. I'm guessing that the girls got smarter and just go to Germany or Czech instead.
In short, I don't think 7% is at the eating tree bark level that say 15 to 20% will bring about. If it hits this level you will see 60 YO street walkers charging $10-20 to buy food and the other unemployed people paying it. You will also see 10's at about $50, guess.
What does it mean in the US?
The Republican President abandons 500 years of market capitalism and moves towards socialism with bailouts for the owners of the Wall Street Firms who should have been zeroed out but are still getting dividends instead. etc etc etc
The FED makes 2 Trillion in secret loans to god knows who.
Bankrupt banks are allowed to stay open while they pretend to be solvent and continue to pay bonuses and dividends.
The Govt moves to a 1 T deficit for 2009
The UAW will get a 150B bail out in exchange for 150M in contributions to Obama and the Democrat party. Great return on pay to play.
Homeowners get massive tax hikes for local govt to give themselves their usual 5-7% pay raises, and refresh the losses in their pension plans, and continuing to use contractors that bill $200 Hr for union trades. Also contributors, pay to play.
The FEDS turn on the printing presses and begin to eliminate whats left of the value of the dollar; already down from 1975 gold @ $35 oz to $830 oz today a 95% debasing of the currency in 33 years with fiat money. Oil and real estate are about the same story as gold.
You really left out the MOST interesting part, which is, when and where does it hit bottom? When and where does it end??
Because many say this is still only the beginning. That all these factors and strange moves and actions are merely signs that this is the beginning of the end. All the warnings that these signs are indications of a much bigger, much darker, more evil, result to come.
Where is al Qaida in all of this? Where are the dirty bombs and bio-terror?
Where are the accidental scientist doomsday scenarios a la "I am Legend" or "12 Monkeys" or "28 Days Later" or all of that shite??
As for what's actually happening on the ground today, out in the provinces I can certainly provide a current assessment.
The new construction that is going on EVERYWHERE has stopped. In my city, just one of the three with popualtion right around 1 million, and therefore all have comparable economics and growth from 2005 until now, the building boom was well on its way when it peaked in 2006 and started its downward spiral. Here, and in all these cities, and to a lesser extent in the 500,000 to 900,000 population cities, and more in Kharkov and Kiev, you will find at least 30 to 50 major new construction projects of 10 to 20 story office or apartment builidings with many projects consisting of 2, 3, and 4 buildings at a time, either already completed, or halfway completed or at some level of completion. Of the 15 or so that are already 100% finished and ready for tenants to move in, they are 90% empty. Prices average around $300,000 for atwo or 3 bed-room apartment, but the ONLY financing available now is at 25 to 35% mortgage rates from the banks.
WHO the hell signs a mortgage for 35%? Mafia? The Mafia is the one offering the mortgages because they own the banks! The real estate glut is mind-boggling in Ukraine. The billions and billions of dollars that poured into the construction companies, all owned and controlled by the handful of oligarchs from FSU countries, all pay hefty tributes to Moscow and Kiev to do "biznis", and that money was skimmed and slushed all the way back to Abu Dhaby and the Emirs of Qatar and Kuwait.
Never fails, if you want to see the truth, one simple rule:
Follow the money. It usually always leads back to the same few places. You can even use your nose, 'cause the smell that reeks of corruption and dishonesty is what built the phony economy, on the backs of communist slave labor in China and the rest of the $1 to $5 per day labor costs in Asia and Africa. When our so called modern world is built on such a shaky foundation as this, its no wonder that its all gonna come crubling down upon us, to bury us under 1000 years of radioactive rubble and death, only to have the cockraoches take over again as the most likely survivors. Just like Charlton heston in Planet of the Apes said, "Damn You, you blew it up!"
In the meantime, the new apartment buildings remain 90% empty, and the price for one hour with a cat-house girl, is still 200 grivnas, everything covered, 10-15 minutes in the bathroom, 10 minutes to smoke her cigarette, 5 minutes on her knees, 10 minutes and her back, and then her phone rings that your one hour is up, (even though at that point its only 40 minutes), so then its back to the bathroom for 15 minutes, and then out the door for the next customer. Zero GFE.
Welcome to the motherland of hard core economic reality.
They mean exactly the same thing. This fictious marriage form is something meant for locals.
Primarily, it is tied into the residency permit.
Provincials get into such marriages in order to gain Kiev residency (or other major city residence) in order to obtain the notorious "propiska" for their internal passport.
While the "propiksa" has been legally terminated in Ukraine, it is still asked for and used by many bureaucrats and officials. With the "propiksa, they can live permanently in Kiev and get benefits legally and with only the usual hassles. Without it, it becomes very difficult for provincials in the city.
I'll confess that this explanation made sense for a minute and then left me totally confused. All of these women are already living in Kiev! They list themselves on singles.ru or loveplanet.ua as living in Kiev and they meet me for coffee (or stand me up at times). And friends tell me that they never bother trying to register in Kiev because - as you say, no one seems to care about propiska anymore.
I thought "fictitious marriage" was directed at Westerners : the girl wants to live in US or Western Europe and so she wants a guy to marry her in Ukraine with both parties knowing and agreeing that they will divorce once she gets settled in the target country.
LifeSavour
12-14-08, 22:10
I'll confess that this explanation made sense for a minute.....MARRIAGE FOR A KIND : Woman & Man (stop relations) but remain in the same flat... they can not come up with the $ to buy the other out!
FICTICOUS : Is also popular concerning neighboring countries, a man wants residency for work so he wants to marry a local!
My favorite end of civilization movie is the Charelton Heston version called Omega Man. It reminds me of my neighborhood with the FEDs ramming scum bags into the suburbs so they can learn how to behave like their neighbors. Too bad the transplants aren't with the program.
If your thinking deep downside, its ten acres (5 hectors) in the country, three years of canned/dry food, a wood burning stove a variety of firearms and lots of ammo. You also need backup generator and a hand pump for the well when the LPG or LNG runs out. Depressions and the end of civilization don't mean much in the country side, they do mean a lot in the cities.
Recognizable silver coins are better than gold since the denominations are smaller for day to day stuff.
Rednecks hugging their guns and bibles will always be the survivors in a total meltdown.
Eventually, the owners of the empty buildings run out of money and the prices collapse. There are plenty of similarly empty buildings in the USA waiting to go to auction at some point.
2000 was the start of the real estate bubble in the US, probably the same in the Ukraine, so this is the target level. It may go 10-20% lower to clear the market.
Net equity loss in the US is $11T
2MM foreclosures in the pipeline, with more to follow.
MARRIAGE FOR A KIND : Woman & Man (stop relations) but remain in the same flat... they can not come up with the $ to buy the other out!
FICTITIOUS : Is also popular concerning neighboring countries, a man wants residency for work so he wants to marry a local!
MARRIAGE FOR A KIND : Well, this explanation made sense for only about 30 seconds....If two people are stuck with each other in the same flat, it may be MARRIAGE FOR A KIND, but that does not explain why anyone would advertise that as a the goal of meeting on a web site. It's not a goal -- just an unfortunate by-product of a different situation.
FICTITIOUS : And how does this work? The guy, lets say from Belarus or Moldova, wants residency in Ukraine and so he pays money to the woman to marry him without sex?
LifeSavour
12-15-08, 10:01
MARRIAGE FOR A KIND : Well, this explanation made sense for only about 30 seconds....If two people are stuck with each other in the same flat, it may be MARRIAGE FOR A KIND, but that does not explain why anyone would advertise that as a the goal of meeting on a web site. It's not a goal -- just an unfortunate by-product of a different situation.It is well documented that TWO can live CHEAPER than ONE! In fact I am looking for a nice "Sugar Babushka" to marry for a kind!
LifeSavour
12-15-08, 13:37
I found this on a Russian Dating site:
"Three Months Membership for $59.95 + 3 months FREE !!! = 6 months (You save $15.00)"
Sounds good at 1st (or as my friend Moliere would say "the 1st 30 seconds") but wait a moment.
3 months at $60.00 + 3 months FREE - I SAVE $60.00!
Maybe the 'ol JACK the price up 100% and then give a 80% discount!
I'll confess that this explanation made sense for a minute and then left me totally confused. All of these women are already living in Kiev! They list themselves on singles.ru or loveplanet.ua as living in Kiev and they meet me for coffee (or stand me up at times). And friends tell me that they never bother trying to register in Kiev because - as you say, no one seems to care about propiska anymore.
I thought "fictitious marriage" was directed at Westerners : the girl wants to live in US or Western Europe and so she wants a guy to marry her in Ukraine with both parties knowing and agreeing that they will divorce once she gets settled in the target country.
A provincial does not need a propiska to live in Kiev. That's not the problem. The real problem is that the propiska which still is in the passport (ask to see the passport and you will still see that stamp) also must be shown if the lady wants to receive local benefits reserved only for Kievans. Otherwise, she has to go home in order to benefit from any payments or services. That is why these ladies want a "ficitous marriage."
As for a foreigner, an actual openly requested "fictitous marriage" makes no sense. The lady may say she loves you but secretly consider it to be a fictious marriage as a way out of Ukraine and to half your income but that is another story.
A provincial does not need a propiska to live in Kiev. That's not the problem. The real problem is that the propiska which still is in the passport (ask to see the passport and you will still see that stamp) also must be shown if the lady wants to receive local benefits reserved only for Kievans. Otherwise, she has to go home in order to benefit from any payments or services. That is why these ladies want a "ficitous marriage."
As for a foreigner, an actual openly requested "fictitious marriage" makes no sense. The lady may say she loves you but secretly consider it to be a fictious marriage as a way out of Ukraine and to half your income but that is another story.
I guess all of my friends in Kiev are too well off. They carry propiskas from whichever city their parents came from -- and they never mentioned looking for benefits from the municipal government. So I can now understand your point. The women who I might want to interest in this way are probably much as you describe -- and not earning $3,000 a month working for a Western bank.
As for the openly requested "fictitious marriage" : I think I now understand your point. You are saying that the women who list "fictitious marriage" on their profiles must be going after Ukrainians for the reasons above. If they want to hoodwink an oversexed American, they would not openly use the word "hoodwink" in their profile.
As for getting half of the guy's assets and income: isn't that the guys responsibility? To make sure he's got everything nailed down and properly hidden before he undertakes the adventure?
Still, you're right. From the girl's point of view, she has to assume the guy is too stupid and too libidinous to have made the proper arrangements.
LifeSavour
12-16-08, 17:10
I guess...... too stupid and too "" libidinous "" to have made the proper arrangements.When you use a word that 98% of the forum members can not spell OR even try to understand.
You must include the definition!
Or are you trying to impress US?
LS 'vocab Master' Guy
Ps. OK, we see it comes from LIBIDO. So I assume it is a person being aroused or having lustful desires. Which is 110% of all of us EASILY aroused fellas?
LifeSavour
12-16-08, 23:09
I raised 2 sons in the midwest around the time when 'KIDS' went missing.
"Police: 1981 killing of Adam Walsh solved Boy's father later gained fame as the host of 'America's Most Wanted'"
In USA we became paranoid and protective. But here in Ukraine, I do not see OR feel the same 'environment'!
Why? Am I not in tune as I do not know the language? Is it happening here more than I think? I mean I see small kids alone on transport, in the street. Never would I of allowed my sons to do the same.
And the POLICE presence here is no where what it was in Smallville. Midwest. USA! Is the crime higher here? NOT!
I sometimes LIKE living here.
LS ' always wondering why ' Guy!
I raised 2 sons in the midwest around the time when 'KIDS' went missing.
"Police: 1981 killing of Adam Walsh solved Boy's father later gained fame as the host of 'America's Most Wanted'"
In USA we became paranoid and protective. But here in Ukraine, I do not see OR feel the same 'environment'!
Why? Am I not in tune as I do not know the language? Is it happening here more than I think? I mean I see small kids alone on transport, in the street. Never would I of allowed my sons to do the same.
And the POLICE presence here is no where what it was in Smallville. Midwest. USA! Is the crime higher here? NOT!
I sometimes LIKE living here.
LS ' always wondering why ' Guy!
Got to agree,
The reason i think is the type of people are here, but they know when they get caught here they really will not be kept seperate from the mass prison population, but thrown to the "lions"
The problem is in the UK and USA they are looked after and treated "better"
Moreover, I also notice here the lack of menacing teenagers hanging around street corners, they are hanging around sometimes, but for some reason they dont seem to have that "pack" look in their eyes.
Crime in general in my opinion is far lower than in the US or UK, that is to say petty crime, crime by the minority against the masses, is distasteful to see right now....... but that's another story, how can you bleed a country for the last 10 years or so and make millions if not in some cases billions mostly tax free, and when the going gets tough, lay off the majority of your employees who you pay a pittance to anyway?
The latest pay joke I heard today was, they will still pay the miners but there wage was based against the dollar, say $450, they will pay, but only against the old exchange rate of 5.5 to the dollar! 30% pay cut anyone?
The mickey mouse US dollar is again getting weak. 1euro=1. 45 even though a week ago: 1 Euro=1. 25. So, maybe this is the end of the financial crisis. Or maybe there isn't a crisis at all! I think its all bullshit from speculators trying to make big bucks on the currency fluctuation market! I say buy Hrivnas now because next week will be $1=5 Hrivnas again!
Sevastopol1
12-19-08, 08:56
The mickey mouse US dollar is again getting weak. 1euro=1. 45 even though a week ago: 1 Euro=1. 25. So, maybe this is the end of the financial crisis. Or maybe there isn't a crisis at all! I think its all bullshit from speculators trying to make big bucks on the currency fluctuation market! I say buy Hrivnas now because next week will be $1=5 Hrivnas again!
On Wednesday here you could get 8.5uah for a $US, yesterday it was 10.5uah to the $US, kind of glad I don't take financial advice from this forum!
LifeSavour
12-19-08, 09:38
The mickey mouse US dollar ........ I say buy Hrivnas now because next week will be $1=5 Hrivnas again!Not! No way "NO Lies" 1:5 ha.
Here is the real deal, take this to the "bank".
The weak dollar has bottomed, WE are only waiting for a signal from our government such as: "NO, we are NOT going to throw $ to you in any bailout! " This will be the signal that the $ will hold and actually begin strengthening.
Couple this with the DEFLATION that is absolutely taking place in Europe and the smart 'speculators' will sell EUROS, POUNDS and ride the slide DOWN!
I am predicitng a move in 2009 approaching 1:1 parity ' EUR/USD!
Open a Foreign Exchange trading account, throw in there $400, sell the EURO (go short) and you will have enough $ to monger big time! I can even show you how to do it ALL totally devoid of taxes!
LS "currency guru with a crystal ball" Guy.
Maybe in Sevastopol they pay Much more hrivnas to the dollar cause in Odessa today its 7.9 hrivnas to the dollar.
Bez Bezarra
12-19-08, 13:12
i say hrivnas next week will be $1=5 hrivnas!
or wait, no... you peel potatoes and onions on a russian naval tugboat in the sevastpol harbor?
no..?
you are a bilge pumper?
ditch digger?
coal miner's step-son?
please explain what qualifies you to predict next week the dollar will go back to 5 grivnas!!!!
and explain specifically what economic factors or changes will cause that????
thank you. :)
Bez Bezarra
12-19-08, 13:23
Listen I apologize for that!
Now can someone please answer this.
Just checking with the Oanda Converter, its got 936 grivna for $100, but only 2751 rubles for $100.
Please, can someone explain why the grivnas are so much weaker??
I want more rubles!!
One thing for sure though, Russian prostitues in the provinces still ask for grivnas, not rubles, and the price si still set at 200 per hour, THAT'S NOW ONLY $21.79 !!!! I might have to change my spring time tickets from Russia to Ukraine!!
How low is the Grivna gonna go????
Listen I apologize for that!
Now can someone please answer this.
Just checking with the Oanda Converter, its got 936 grivna for $100, but only 2751 rubles for $100.
Please, can someone explain why the grivnas are so much weaker??
I want more rubles!!
One thing for sure though, Russian prostitues in the provinces still ask for grivnas, not rubles, and the price si still set at 200 per hour, THAT'S NOW ONLY $21.79 !!!! I might have to change my spring time tickets from Russia to Ukraine!!
How low is the Grivna gonna go????
I got in touch again with the MT and she wants 300 USD a day now... so something Is changing.... :D
IT
Attached You'll find her visit card... a pic from 30/05/2005.... now she staes she is 22 ah ah she is 27-8... but the visti card is still astonishing... Bez I wonder who called her "The Helicopter" ah ah ah
Superparatrooper
12-20-08, 01:41
Now can someone please answer this.
Just checking with the Oanda Converter, its got 936 grivna for $100, but only 2751 rubles for $100.
Please, can someone explain why the grivnas are so much weaker?
How low is the Grivna gonna go? While both countries’ economies are in serious peril, the Russian government has responded in a much more cohesive way than the Ukrainians did. In Ukraine you’ve got the Prime Minster engrossed in a nasty food fight with the President. Each one is acting as if they are participants in a mud slinging contest to see who can smother the other one with more shit. On top of that you’ve got PM Tymoshenko going on TV and spewing populist rhetoric about how the government should stop banks from foreclosing on people who have defaulted on their mortgages and car loans. She then goes on to attack Stelmakh- the chairman of the National Bank of Ukraine (their central bank). Which was supposed to be also a swipe at the President because Yushchenko is a former banker himself. To keep up with the populist rhetoric, Mr. El Presidento Yushchenko himself starts criticizing banks and threatens to cut off central-bank funds to commercial banks in Ukraine because the economically illiterate masses of Ukraine think commercial banks are using the foreign currency the central bank has provided to speculate in the market rather than lend it to Boris who needs a new Bimmer. Following the long drawn out pissing contest to the bottom between Yushchenko & Tymoshenko, the two officially agreed to form a new coalition earlier this week, but I suspect the unity displayed by the "Coalition of the Willing" cooked up Dubya Bush would put to shame the unity of this new Ukrainian coalition government. The $16 billion IMF loan also stipulated that Ukraine has to let the hrivna free float on open currency exchanges. Given the bickering at the top and the fact the currency is trading freely, it is no surprise the hrivna is sinking faster than the Titanic. Ohh, did I mention that Gazprom is again threatening to turn off the gas supply.
Now, Russia in comparison to Ukraine looks like a professionally managed and governed country. Russia has (or at least had until very recently) the world’s 3rd largest foreign currency reserves. You also have a semblance of a government that is somewhat united in its effort to counter the effects of the crisis I. E. We don’t see Putin bickering with Medvedev. The Russian Central bank has been using the massive reserves to devalue the Ruble slowly – something akin of a controlled crash landing. In recent past the Russian central bank didn’t allow the ruble to weaken by more than 1%. As more than 25% or about $160 billion of the foreign reserves have melted away, the central bank has steadily expanded the trading band in which the ruble can fluctuate against a Euro-Dollar currency basket. This dual currency basket (made of 55% dollars and 45% Euros) is used to set the ruble's exchange rate. Because the central bank is widening the ruble’s trading band slowly it is attempting to devalue the ruble in a controlled manner.
In summation, the ruble unlike the hrivna is not trading freely on the world’s currency markets. The Russian central bank has been using what once was a record $597 billion gold and foreign reserve stash to prop up the ruble. If you add the political turmoil in Ukraine, it is easy to see why the hrivna has sunk faster than the ruble.
How long can hrivna go? It is a billion dollar question. If I knew the answer I would be The Fucking Soros Jr. The 2nd. All the drinks would be on me for everyone on ISG.
On Wednesday here you could get 8.5uah for a $US, yesterday it was 10.5uah to the $US, kind of glad I don't take financial advice from this forum!
Apart from me :) as I said by spring it is going to be 12-15 for sure!
So, Superparatrooper, the conclusion of your in depth macro economic analysis is that Ukrainian hos are better value than Russian ones.. correct? :)
Superparatrooper
12-20-08, 19:41
If I may use precise technical jargon: HELL FUCKING YEAH!*
*Restrictions apply.May not be applicable in all areas and across hoe types. Please consult with your nearest hoe specialist to determine the best value for money. Not responsible for sloppy negotiations and/or deals made while under the influence of alcohol.
So, Superparatrooper, the conclusion of your in depth macro economic analysis is that Ukrainian hos are better value than Russian ones.. correct? :)
So, Superparatrooper, the conclusion of your in depth macro economic analysis is that Ukrainian hos are better value than Russian ones.. correct? :)
Fuck knows he lost me on the second sentence :)
I will be in Lvov and Kiev for about three weeks starting next week. With the current currency/exhange situation will I have any trouble geting Hryvnas from ATMs? I usually bring cash only as a backup for emergencies and depend on ATMs to withdraw from my US-based checking account. Anything unusual going on these days? Reduced limits, etc?
Thanks to whoever can advise!
Fuck knows he lost me on the second sentence :)If I read Super correctly, Russia is burning up their gold? and foreign cash reserves by purchasing back the Rubles at a burn rate of $160 billion per 90? days. So they have 9 months before they completely run out of Euros and Dollars. The neo fascists running the country will strip mine whatever they can sell as the draw down continues, trees, coal, weapons sales etc...
At the same time, their oil revenue is vaporizing, extraction costs average something like $25? a barrel. So the forward picture for Russia and friends for the next couple of years is bleak.
Ukraine didn't have any oil to boom with, so their starting point is a lot weaker. They have nothing to defend their currency with. They either have to cut imports or increase exports of goods and services, their currency will drop til balance is restored. Expect massive deflation if the currency holds some value or Weimar like hyper inflation if they try to print their way out of it.
Explains why everyone is dumping their domestic currency and fleeing to dollars. Perhaps the US can change the national motto to "we suck less this time"? The size of cars in the US continues to shrink, let them drink oil!
If the government of the Ukraine doesn't allow people to earn a living by providing essential services, expect the citizens to vote with their feet and leave the country in significant numbers to any place they can earn some food, clothes and heating. Destination Germany?
LifeSavour
12-21-08, 20:28
....... Destination Germany?You certainly do not ukrainians. Look and understand their history. They are not going anywhere. They will suck it up here, in the flat, with 4 family members and eat prasthney pashtet until it leaks sardines out there 'dupa's'.
Before they run to another country.
The effect of the crisis is psychological.
Phases follow like that:
1.Denial
2.Anger
3.Bargaining
Now girls are in the phase of anger.
So be careful.
First of all I must say that picking up a girl in a discoteke or other places where Ukrainians meet isn't as easy as many tell on this site. I am 50 years old, allthough I am slim, I probably look like that. I didn't succed once. Even though my Russian is fairly good. I tried in the streets (talked with many, but never had one, they were all ugly), in bars, in restaurants. Don't trust anyone who says that you can go to this or that cafe or restaurant. And this applies to all of Ukraina. Furthermore in most of the cities street walkers are stopped by the police, you have to get a taxi to find them, and even then it is difficult to find one. The best way to get a girl is to call for one at an agency (you will find a decent, good girl, and you won't have any problems because she has everything to loose if you make a report on her). But then again it can be difficult if you do not speak any Russian.
Lucky Strike
12-22-08, 00:17
Ukraine didn't have any oil to boom with, so their starting point is a lot weaker. They have nothing to defend their currency with. They either have to cut imports or increase exports of goods and services, their currency will drop til balance is restored. Expect massive deflation if the currency holds some value or Weimar like hyper inflation if they try to print their way out of it.
Weimar-like? Very much so. But it's not even necessary to use other countries as examples. Ukraine itself is the best example. Just search Wikipedia for "hyperinflation" and scroll down to Ukraine!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation
Even if history does not exactly repeat itself , (just like the economy) it tends to run in cycles.
Pluto,
I know I live here, can you explain how they would get to Germany?
Or any other country for that matter? without a visa?
As I am sure the "relaxed" visa requirements for Ukrainians is about to be seriously tightened again.
Mark my words the grevna will hit 12-15 to the dollar, I already get 13-14 on the GBP :) from cash machines! (ATM)
So In answer to you Alex NYC yes yes thrice yes ATM's have plenty of local currency, remember that's what they don't want right now!
Soraki, the game is odd in Ukraine, look desperate they run away, look like they are lucky to be even talking to you.......... its a different game, its time spent not numbers talked to, you are 50 for gods sake, just smile stand off and let the ones interested show you they are! watch the Ukrainian guys at work, its a different way!
Exports are moving again, but production has been slashed, its a funny world out there as supply and demand are about to reverse back.
For me I have not laid 1 worker off nor reduced a single wage! or scammed them on exchange, and we are just about to get some new business for a song from the idiots here that are short term (like most Ukrainian "businessmen") and bailing.
Don't you just love Ukraine? I DO!
What, Who do I work for?
You certainly do not ukrainians. Look and understand their history. They are not going anywhere. They will suck it up here, in the flat, with 4 family members and eat prasthney pashtet until it leaks sardines out there 'dupa's'.
Before they run to another country.
Life,
Why I work for me of course, my ideas are my own. Ukrainian expert no, small understanding of human nature, maybe.
My reference was to migrant labor, which in the end often turn into permanent temporary workers.
Bez Bezarra
12-22-08, 06:58
I say picking up a girl in a disco or other place isn't as easy as many tell.
I didn't succed once.
I tried in the street with many, but they were all ugly, in bars, in restaurants.
Don't trust anyone who says you can go to this or that cafe or restaurant.
And this applies to all of Ukraina.
For street walkers get a taxi, even then it is difficult to find one.
The way to get a girl is call an agency but it can be difficult if you do not speak any Russian.
Yeah, me too. I never got one girl, and my taxi driver couldn't find any street walkers! And all the girls I saw were ugly too! And I can't get any agency girl cause I can't speak Russian either!
"Pluto,
I know I live here, can you explain how they would get to Germany?
Or any other country for that matter? without a visa?"
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Q.
Single adults can't travel as tourists into the EU without a visa to enter? Even so, a six month tourist visa is not unusual for many countries.
Once you are in, working a service job off the books is easy to maintain for six months, then exit the country for a spell at home. Germany has been lax in this regard for a long time.
Woof, woof, woof
Pluto
"Pluto,
I know I live here, can you explain how they would get to Germany?
Or any other country for that matter? without a visa?"
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Q.
Single adults can't travel as tourists into the EU without a visa to enter? Even so, a six month tourist visa is not unusual for many countries.
Once you are in, working a service job off the books is easy to maintain for six months, then exit the country for a spell at home. Germany has been lax in this regard for a long time.
Woof, woof, woof
Pluto
I live here.... I am not a Ukrainian... thank god.
6 months visas for Euro zone? just go apply do they?
They make me prove funds and proof i will support them during the stay, to get my mother in law into Europe for 2 weeks!
I must have the wrong contacts!
LifeSavour
12-22-08, 13:17
The 1st ones to leave any country when it experiences an economic downturn are the 'migrant' workers. Ukrainians are coming home from working abroad - NOT Going to find new work!
Your 'bass-akwards'!
First of all I must say that picking up a girl in a discoteke or other places where Ukrainians meet isn't as easy as many tell on this site. I am 50 years old, allthough I am slim, I probably look like that. I didn't succed once. Even though my Russian is fairly good. I tried in the streets (talked with many, but never had one, they were all ugly), in bars, in restaurants. Don't trust anyone who says that you can go to this or that cafe or restaurant. And this applies to all of Ukraina. Furthermore in most of the cities street walkers are stopped by the police, you have to get a taxi to find them, and even then it is difficult to find one. The best way to get a girl is to call for one at an agency (you will find a decent, good girl, and you won't have any problems because she has everything to loose if you make a report on her). But then again it can be difficult if you do not speak any Russian.
Interesting experiences from Soraki!
I made 2 experiences in Ukraine where I am nowadays quite often (more often than in my country Switzerland).
1. I booked the following girl http://escort-models.kiev.ua/en-Elena-kiev-escort-ua-Sex-vaginal-woman-escort.78.html
I thought I would be talking with her, but 90 minutes later I got a phone call to come downstairs to the lobby of President hotel. I saw a young girl who was searching looking around and said "Elena" ... she got up and we went to the lift... Shit, a body guarad explained me that they would have some rules and I would have to pay in a separate room 200 UAH and this guard took also her passport and noted everything in a very big book (There were at least tens of similar postings only in this week...)
In the room she turned out as grud 2 instead of 4, she did not speak any English... ok ... my Russian is good enough for that kind of business..
2. I booked Alla http://www.kievescortguide.com/Gallery/UkraineEscortAlla.html from another page a very busty girls who should provide DFK and BBBJ.
A) A girl arrived who looked similar. When she was undressed she was not busty at all and refused kissing. I asked her about the info on the www and she just answered. Internet. Ha, ha, ha. Nobody believes this. I send her away and she returned me the money back. She talked for a while with her agency and they promised to send me another blonde busty girl who would provide the services I was interested in.
After another 60 minutes, someone knocked at my door (of the hotel Adria). When I opened the door I saw a girl who looked somehow like a mestizzo between Asia and Brasil. Ok, she had (non-natural) blond hair and spoke English without Russian accent. She stated to be born and raised in Ukraine. But sorry, that was a different style.
== I send her away.
Nowadays I date girls from marriage agencies, preferably in Odessa and Nikolaev. I have the impression it is not part of the business model of these (more than) 100 agencies in Odessa to find a life partner, but to pay money to a translator, although I speak Russian. Ok, it is interesting to attend a 1st meeting and speaking English, listening to the translation. After the end of the 1st (short) meeting I give the girl a good-bye kiss on the cheeks, if she reponds to the mouth and 1 of 10 times with tongue. Sometimes the translator (which is always female, young and more professional) is attractive and goes to the hotel room with me, afterwards.
But this is always time consuming.
Another professional working girl told me, she had never had any Ukrainian customer, only Americans or W. Europeans.
The average Ukrainian man probably cannot afford to be a punter or even to be the bread-winner in a family.
The other (remaining few) Ukrainian men can choose and do not need to be a punter.
So, is there an easier way to find a busty escort in UA which provides a GFS?
The 1st ones to leave any country when it experiences an economic downturn are the 'migrant' workers. Ukrainians are coming home from working abroad - NOT Going to find new work!
Your 'bass-akwards'!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Life,
I don't know how much stock you put in the Ukrainian Gov't, this is from one of their official reports on migration. In short, after the collapse of the USSR there was massive migration throughout the CIS as millions "went home" to their ethnic country of origin. This report has some great charts with the Tartars etc....
Apparently emigration from the Ukraine is still viewed as an issue though nowhere near the levels of post USSR Russian's going home..
Here is a clip from a little further in:
"Based on the research conducted by a number of oblast centers for employment in accordance
with the directive of the Ministry of Labor and Social Policy of Ukraine, the total number of
labor migration in Ukraine does not exceed 2 million people.
In addition to these figures, there exist estimates that essentially exceed the above mentioned
data. Some economists claim there are up to 5 million people.
Politicians raise the number
even higher. For instance, the commissioner for human rights in the Ukrainian Parliament
believes up to 7 million Ukrainian citizens have moved to find work abroad.
According to the information from Ukrainian embassies, Ukrainian labor migration has the
following structure in terms of countries of destination: in Poland there are 300 thousand labor
migrants, in Italy and the Czech Republic, 200,000 (each), in Portugal, 115,000, In Spain,
100,000, in Turkey, 35,000, in the USA, 20,000. The number of Ukrainians who work in the
Russian Federation is estimated to be 1 million people.
Despite the differences in estimates, they prove that labor migration has become a typical and
widespread additional or primary source of income for many Ukrainians. Labor migration
therefore is of great socio-political importance"
http://www.gcim.org/attachements/GMP%20No%2014.pdf
A couple of other pages that are informative are:
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Ukraine-MIGRATION.html
http://www.migrationinformation.org/profiles/display.cfm?id=365
Today 1,00 € = 11.5 UAH. This could effectively mean 13 or 14 UAH to the € relatively soon.
From what I know no other EE currency has dropped that dramatically until now.
Does this put provincial Ukraine in the "cheap" destinations map ?..two monthes roaming and lingering through East Ukraine and Krimea next summer sounds like a tempting idea. :)
Today 1,00 € = 11.5 UAH. This could effectively mean 13 or 14 UAH to the € relatively soon.
From what I know no other EE currency has dropped that dramatically until now.
Does this put provincial Ukraine in the "cheap" destinations map ?..two monthes roaming and lingering through East Ukraine and Krimea next summer sounds like a tempting idea. :)
Prosal do you remember how was more or less the change with 1 euro about 1 and 2 years ago ? Last time I was there, was 2006, but I forgot.
Considering saving money with visa too....it seems to me so much tempting... ;)
Prosal do you remember how was more or less the change with 1 euro about 1 and 2 years ago ? Last time I was there, was 2006, but I forgot.
From what I know the Hryvnia has always been around 6.5 to the €, and around 5 to the us$.
Sounds great if it reaches 14 to the €.
Considering saving money with visa too....it seems to me so much tempting... ;)
Add the fact that cheap fights (from 40 € for a return ticket) now exist between Europe and Ukraine.
http://wizzair.com/
That may not be good long-term for the monger, but that is quite convenient in a crisis period. :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wizz Air Ukraine launches international flights to Germany and the UK
Wizz Air Ukraine, the first Ukrainian low fare – low cost airline announced today that it would open flights from Kiev Boryspil to Dortmund and Cologne (Germany), and from Lviv to Dortmund and London Luton. The flights will be launched as of 15 January 2009. The new routes will be served by the second brand new Airbus A320 aircraft to be delivered in the first days of January 2009.
Wizz Air Ukraine will be the only airline to link Dortmund and Cologne with the Ukrainian capital and Lviv with Germany and the UK offering low fares, convenient and easy travel to many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians working and studying abroad. Now they can travel home or have their families visiting them more often. At the same time Wizz Air Ukraine will attract many German and British passengers who already know the Wizz brand and now they can enjoy the low fares and reliable services to discover the many beauties of Ukraine.
The new flights are as follows:
Kiev Dortmund 4 flights/week
Kiev Cologne 3 flights/week
Lviv Dortmund 3 flights/week
Lviv London 4 flights/week
Tickets are on sale from today with one-way all-inclusive fares starting from as low as UAH 199 for the German routes and UAH 299 for Lviv-London Luton (an additional GBP 40 air duty passenger charge imposed by the UK government is applicable on the London Luton-Lviv flight leg) on wizzair.com and via call center (please check our site for the relevant number of each country).
‘We are extremely pleased to make Ukraine just as accessible as any other European country to many millions of European travellers. Ukrainian passengers responded very well to Wizz Air’s low fares and service standards on our domestic services and they were long looking forward to our international flights. The new international routes will expand the horizons of many millions of Ukrainian and Western European travellers and open doors that were closed before and vigorously guarded by the high fare monopolists.”- said Natasa Kázmér, Director of the Board of Wizz Air Ukraine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reiner Otto
12-26-08, 17:44
Where did you find that article ?
I booked wizzair already, Kiev-Dortmund on 12-January, 4 weeks ago. However, there is still the provision
"Assuming we get the official permissions" on their site, in case you really want to book online.
So, be careful.
This airline is not too reliable, I am still expecting a refund for a flight Dortmund-Krakov, they simply cancelled without any reason :-)
Prosal. I am SURE you work for Wizz Air! Why else would you post such a long, detailled expaination of their upcoming flights to Ukraine?
Anyways, these flights are nothing but BAD news for us mongers!
You know how the attitude of local women towards foreigners change when they see hordes of (British, german, italian)Stagg guys hit the town targeting any female alive!
So, in other words, why are you so happy to see Kiev soon turning into another Riga, Tallinn, Budapest or Prague?
Where did you find that article ?
http://wizzair.com/about_us/news/
Seems they haven't got the permissions for the ukrainian domestic flights they've announced BTW.
Nonetheless they have interesting routes from Paris to provincial Romania (Timisoara and Cluj-Napola). Could be useful soon. :)
So, in other words, why are you so happy to see Kiev soon turning into another Riga, Tallinn, Budapest or Prague?
Come on, stop stupidly whining about your lost "paradises". Everyone knows that Kiev's golden days are looong gone. Golden days are long gone everywhere in EE anyhow.
Evolve instead of complaining. If low cost flights disturb you that much get some balls and risk yourself in untapped playgrounds like fu**ing Stans, Caucasus or provincial Russia.
Prosal. I am SURE you work for Wizz Air! Why else would you post such a long, detailled expaination of their upcoming flights to Ukraine?
Anyways, these flights are nothing but BAD news for us mongers!
You know how the attitude of local women towards foreigners change when they see hordes of (British, german, italian)Stagg guys hit the town targeting any female alive!
So, in other words, why are you so happy to see Kiev soon turning into another Riga, Tallinn, Budapest or Prague?It is exactly why these companies start these flights for.They target the group of cheap sex starved folks in western european countries,notably Italians and minorities in UK.I do not worry so much about the flights from Dortmund although they will attract some Turks living in Germany,I do however worry about the flights from London which will attract minorities.
The market in Budapest,Prague,Riga,Krakow has dried up for this kind of tourists since girls have become aware,so cheap flight companies find another destination to fullfill the demand considering the devaluation of hryvnia as a motivation for the tourist.
Of course they will never attempt to start a cheap flight to Moscow since the treatment the stag parties members are expected to face by the local guys is of totally different kind than in the rest of Europe.
Brian Moloney
12-27-08, 18:50
Of course they will never attempt to start a cheap flight to Moscow since the treatment the stag parties members are expected to face by the local guys is of totally different kind than in the rest of Europe.I am happy to say Russia has the invatation Visa registration crap. And that prices are expensive in Moscow because it keeps the rift raft out and the poor mongers. Thats the last place I want to see Russia turning into another Thailand.. But theres beautiful women there to Mick licker has shown that. I hope prices STAY high in Moscow. Yes its expensive but the ladies re the most beautiful in the world. But Thailand is tempting I must admit.
Doctor_Skank
12-27-08, 23:30
Of course they will never attempt to start a cheap flight to Moscow since the treatment the stag parties members are expected to face by the local guys is of totally different kind than in the rest of Europe.There are several reasons why stag parties will never catch hold in Moscow, but it has nothing to do with the local men. The local men are quite ok with foreigners hitting on their women.
The reason it won't catch on is because Moscow is too expensive.
There is no place in the center to stay for under 200 €/night.
Drinks in clubs and bars average about 4 € for beer and 7 € for mixed drinks.
The local girls aren't keen to meet cheap-o sex tourists.
Nobody cares to speak English.
You saw what happened during the champion's league final between ManU and Chelsea... the English fans were too cheap to go out on the town in Moscow.
Personally, I don't think Kiev will suffer much either, if WIZZAIR even stays airborne. They may very well falter.
Prague is still the main tourist choice, since it has more to offer than Kiev. Odessa never became the tourist destination that it was expected to. I think Odessa's time has come and gone again already as well.
Quite frankly, I think the era of the Eastern European sex tourist has already died. It is already a considerably smaller market than some would think. The fact that people still have trouble finding sex in Kiev is proof enough that it isn't a true sex destination in the sense of Amsterdam or Pattaya.
The future for the monger will require more savvy, more courage and sadly, more money. Every one must know for themselves if it is really worth the effort or not.
Prague is still the main tourist choice, since it has more to offer than Kiev. Odessa never became the tourist destination that it was expected to.
Quite frankly, I think the era of the Eastern European sex tourist has already died. It is already a considerably smaller market than some would think. The fact that people still have trouble finding sex in Kiev is proof enough that it isn't a true sex destination in the sense of Amsterdam or Pattaya.
The future for the monger will require more savvy, more courage and sadly, more money. Every one must know for themselves if it is really worth the effort or not.
Hey Doc,
What about Prague vs German FKKs?
Was considering UA, but the trip is so damn long.
Been doing the Costa Rica thing as of late, but nowhere near the class of those FKKs.
NB
Doctor_Skank
12-28-08, 10:22
Hey Doc,
What about Prague vs German FKKs?
Was considering UA, but the trip is so damn long.
Been doing the Costa Rica thing as of late, but nowhere near the class of those FKKs.
NBFKKs are great and an aspect that every sex entusiasist should try at least once.
About WizzAir: How they make money? They have new and expensive plains. Everybody told me they have the cheapest prices in the market.
WizzAir already cut their flightplans to Lviv (for example). From the end of January they fly two times to Dortmund and two times to London. Not three and four times als announced in their news section. Thursday flights to Dortmund are marked as "sold out", Friday flights to London are marked as "sold out", too. But it's just a little lie. They don't fly on these days. They stopped all flights to Odessa, Zaporyzhzhia and Kharkov. So better don't book long time in advance. As I remember they changed flighttimes from one day to another, too.
About German FKKs: It's still great. Many nice girls, very good service and cheap prices. I think it was much better 10 years ago, because they had more girls from Russia and Ukraine. Now they have too many girls from Romania and Bulgaria. Many new Fkks opened in the past year. Styled as "spa for men". Good design, free meal like in restaurant all day, professional medical massage.
FKKs are great and an aspect that every sex entusiasist should try at least once.About WizzAir: How they make money? They have new and expensive plains. Everybody told me they have the cheapest prices in the market.
WizzAir already cut their flightplans to Lviv (for example). From the end of January they fly two times to Dortmund and two times to London. Not three and four times als announced in their news section. Thursday flights to Dortmund are marked as "sold out", Friday flights to London are marked as "sold out", too. But it's just a little lie. They don't fly on these days. They stopped all flights to Odessa, Zaporyzhzhia and Kharkov. So better don't book long time in advance. As I remember they changed flighttimes from one day to another, too.
About German FKKs: It's still great. Many nice girls, very good service and cheap prices. I think it was much better 10 years ago, because they had more girls from Russia and Ukraine. Now they have too many girls from Romania and Bulgaria. Many new Fkks opened in the past year. Styled as "spa for men". Good design, free meal like in restaurant all day, professional medical massage.
There are several reasons why stag parties will never catch hold in Moscow, but it has nothing to do with the local men. The local men are quite ok with foreigners hitting on their women.
The reason it won't catch on is because Moscow is too expensive.
There is no place in the center to stay for under 200 €/night.
Drinks in clubs and bars average about 4 € for beer and 7 € for mixed drinks.
The local girls aren't keen to meet cheap-o sex tourists.
Nobody cares to speak English.
You saw what happened during the champion's league final between ManU and Chelsea... the English fans were too cheap to go out on the town in Moscow.
Personally, I don't think Kiev will suffer much either, if WIZZAIR even stays airborne. They may very well falter.
Prague is still the main tourist choice, since it has more to offer than Kiev. Odessa never became the tourist destination that it was expected to. I think Odessa's time has come and gone again already as well.
Quite frankly, I think the era of the Eastern European sex tourist has already died. It is already a considerably smaller market than some would think. The fact that people still have trouble finding sex in Kiev is proof enough that it isn't a true sex destination in the sense of Amsterdam or Pattaya.
The future for the monger will require more savvy, more courage and sadly, more money. Every one must know for themselves if it is really worth the effort or not.The Russians don't tolerate vulgar and aggressive behaviour from foreigners in their own land as it happens in stag parties.Russian police and locals beat seriously some tourists who engaged in such behaviour and the rest got expelled from the country.As a result stag parties stopped in Moscow.
The treatment of Europeans and fans was so terrible during the final of Champion's League that Platini promised no major events in Russia for the near future.
The balance has changed for the monger in Eastern Europe.Now there is lot of diveristy and balances constantly changing due to the fact that the areas are so huge that the mongers are diluted in,so to say or they get easily concentrated in some places destroying the market while leaving others untouched and then they leave,thus the place becomeing interesting again,etc.It is all a matter of balances in time and place.
It is exactly why these companies start these flights for. They target the group of cheap sex starved folks in western european countries.
Total nonsense.
Low-cost companies like Wizz Air start new routes to EE particularly to face inbound tourism expansion. Not sexual tourism, but cultural, rural and ecological tourism.
In 2006 about 2 millions tourists have visited Romania, 3 millions Lithuania, 7 millions Czech Rep, 15 millions Poland, 18 millions Ukraine ( 13th most visited country in the world), ect.
That's about 100 millions tourist arrivals in Central/Eastern Europe prognosticated for 2008.
Not even talking about outbound tourism, which is also booming.
http://www.unwto.org/facts/eng/pdf/barometer/unwto_barom07_2_en.pdf
If you have flexibility and can plan your vacation in Kiev one of the most convenient companies: quality/price is surely Lufthansa.
Usually on Sat-Sun you can fly (some times strange times and long waiting in FRA or MUC) a return ticket from all over Europe to Kiev just for 168 € inclusive of all taxes... and you can even change the ticket with a fee of 100 €. So it's not strictly closed.
Of course you need to be flexible and buy it approx 1 month before, but's a bargain, because it's from major airports, not from low cost ones, where what you save is what you have to pay to get there!
IT
Just my two cents
Doctor_Skank
12-29-08, 15:24
The treatment of Europeans and fans was so terrible during the final of Champion's League that Platini promised no major events in Russia for the near future.
Let's see how Moscow handles the Eurovision in the summer. I'll try to avoid being in Moscow at that time. I imagine it will be a failure though, as Moscow is not set up for tourists.
So far as I am not good economist, I share with you this I found a while ago.... I am curious to know the opinion of the more experienced here.
Thanks and happy 2009 ;)
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/as-the-politicians-battle-it-out-ukraines-economy-tunnels-south-in-search-of-australia/
LifeSavour
12-29-08, 23:10
Ummm. I have been coming here since Nov. 2000, the grivna has been supported since then AND probably before! I was not referring to 'propping' the weak UAH. I even commented maybe G. W. Could come and consult. The govt. Will have to come in and perform some sort of 'bailout'. There are just too many POWERFUL bank owners, too many flats, to many $100, 000 cars, that will BE foreclosed on. Then what.
There will some sort of 'agreement' on how these "high=end" locals will be able to pay off their car loan, million $ home, with out losing them!Now look! This is what I was talking about.
Earlier this month, Finance Minister Victor Pynzenyk called on banks to refinance loans amid a weakening hryvnia and rising interest rates. Some banks in recent days said they would seek compromises with clients, rather than hike interest rates further. Pynzenyk’s proposal called on the NBU to amend its rules to allow borrowers either partially or in whole to pay back loans in the national currency at the exchange rate which was operative when the loan agreement was signed. The banks, in turn, would be allowed to lower their capital/asset ratios and write off their losses, thus paying lower taxes, which would also require amendments to the tax legislation. Obviously some such solution will need to be found for this problem. (There has already been some move in this direction in Hungary, another of the countries which is strongly affected by the forex loans problem).
Other measures under consideration at the present time include extending loan periods, and the temporary reductions in loan payment installments. If the hryvnia-dollar exchange rate further widens, mass loan defaults are inevitable, according to Yuriy Belinsky, head analyst at Astrum Investment Management. At the current Hr 8 to the $1 rate, "40 percent won’t be able to pay their loans, " Belinsky told Korrespondent, a Russian-language Ukraine newspaper.
? So who is the "boss" now?
Bez Bezarra
12-30-08, 13:08
If you plan on Kiev the most convenient quality/price is surely Lufthansa.
Sat-Sun you fly from all over Europe to Kiev just for 168 € and two cents
I've never been able to use the 99Lufth-Balloons for a Ukrainian holiday, because first I have to get to Europe, and their connections are timed so that I have no choice but to overnight in Munchen.
So that makes it cost more, AND gives me one LESS night in Candyland, and their RT fares from USA to KBP are NOT any bargain. The ONLY time I used Lufthansa was when I went straight thru to Minsk, then I hopped a $90 jet flight a week later on a Belavia to Kiev, to finish off my excursion with a short leg out to the provinces, because I just wasn't having enough consistent success or making great connections in Minsk to invest in a second week, but also because I had some fantastic talent waiting for me in Kiev back in 2003.
But,..... I HAVE had great successes with Lfthansa flying into the Russian provinces, but,.... these are REALLY expensive now, no bargains that I can find, in fact, so come July, the Bez will finally do Moskva BECAUSE Lufthansa's price has soared beyond anything I can afford.
But for Kiev, I've always found better prices going on SwissAir and KLM through Geneva and Amsterdam.
But,.....my perspective is completely different,
BECAUSE,.... I'm no Eurotrash like you, I'm the damn dirty yankee dog.
LifeSavour
12-30-08, 13:40
I've never been able to use the 99Lufth-Balloons for a Ukrainian holiday, because first I have to get to Europe, .
But my perspective is completely different.
BECAUSE, . I'm no Eurotrash like you, I'm the damn dirty yankee dog. I've used LUTFTH'''' many times from Chicago to Frankfurt then to Kyiv!
See us Mid-Westerns ROCK & RULE!
Ps. And LUFT""" is an awesome 'service' oriented carrier even though the 'ladies' serving you are not always the BEST lookers.
Brian Moloney
01-01-09, 10:45
I've used LUTFTH'''' many times from Chicago to Frankfurt then to Kyiv!
See us Mid-Westerns ROCK & RULE!
Ps. And LUFT""" is an awesome 'service' oriented carrier even though the 'ladies' serving you are not always the BEST lookers.I had the misfortune from flying from vancouver to chicago ohare air port to frankfrut then to odessa. What a fucking mistake that was back in 1989. I had a 1 hour lay over in chicago. I was interigated strip search and was threaten to be sent back to canada. If I did not answer any of there questions. Hahaha I told them to fuck off and send me back to canada. Its none of your business its only a 1 hour lay over go to hell. Well I almost miss my flight I told them nothing. They eventually let me board the lufthansa plane to germany then to odessa. You could smoke cigarretes on the plane in those days once the plane from Germany was in Ukrainian air space. Needless to say after telling the usa customs to go fuck themselves and what ever other superfiscial agents that was trying to interigate me and intimidate me (which I laugh in ther faces ha ha ha) they put me on a red flag list so I am now hassel when I leave canada. So I have had no problems now when I fly to germany, or switzerland from canada. Yeah I even had a altercation on a return flight from moscow to heathrow england. (what a losy shitty air port I even told scotland yard that this air port was a disgrace and even he agree on that one) but he still got no imformation out of me. Live and learn I stay out of the usa and england I could get cheaper flights if I did. But nah I don't need the hassels.
i just check flirt.com.ua, the default page show peeple from us. on top of page, you can choose different city in ukraine, but search result is showed people from us. could somebody give some detail instruction? should i have to register? the whole page cannot translated by google translator.
I had the misfortune from flying from vancouver to chicago ohare air port to frankfrut then to odessa. What a fucking mistake that was back in 1989. I had a 1 hour lay over in chicago. I was interigated strip search and was threaten to be sent back to canada. If I did not answer any of there questions. Hahaha I told them to fuck off and send me back to canada. Its none of your business its only a 1 hour lay over go to hell. Well I almost miss my flight I told them nothing. They eventually let me board the lufthansa plane to germany then to odessa. You could smoke cigarretes on the plane in those days once the plane from Germany was in Ukrainian air space. Needless to say after telling the usa customs to go fuck themselves and what ever other superfiscial agents that was trying to interigate me and intimidate me (which I laugh in ther faces ha ha ha) they put me on a red flag list so I am now hassel when I leave canada. So I have had no problems now when I fly to germany, or switzerland from canada. Yeah I even had a altercation on a return flight from moscow to heathrow england. (what a losy shitty air port I even told scotland yard that this air port was a disgrace and even he agree on that one) but he still got no imformation out of me. Live and learn I stay out of the usa and england I could get cheaper flights if I did. But nah I don't need the hassels.
Regarding Canada I only know Toronto and is not my favorite city and in the airport they asked me some stupid questions too; relly not freindly. I am Swiss and know my country is not freindly either. Honestly I prefer Ukraine in this aspect, at least my opinion and maybe you disagree.
Brian Moloney
01-06-09, 00:44
regarding canada i only know toronto and is not my favorite city and in the airport they asked me some stupid questions too; relly not freindly. i am swiss and know my country is not freindly either. honestly i prefer ukraine in this aspect, at least my opinion and maybe you disagree.germany and switzerland are beautiful people no hassels. because i am red flag. gee i don't know why? thank you usa. i am strip search and interigated at vancouver air-port before i leave and when i come back. its amazing how much information they have on a person. they told me where i work and how much money i earn the year before its incredible i was doumb founded. they also told me that it was impossible for me to go back and forth to russia i don't earn enough money to live the life style that i do. and they knew where i live in russia. well i fuck them really good. i told them i was gay and i have a boyfriend there. hahahhaha they were speechless the look on their faces was priceless. i then went on telling them this is discrimination i know my rights, as a canadian i am being persecuted for my sexual orientation bla bla bla. well they then were polite to me, after i told them, what are you going to do now? tasser me like the guy you murder from poland? i threw that shit right back in their faces. now they were on the defensive. works for me. the last time i went back to russia there werent any more problems i guess they put that on their computer to. hehehehe
Explorer69
01-06-09, 08:30
Germany and Switzerland are beautiful people NO HASSELS. Because I am RED FLAG. Gee I don't know why? Thank you USA. I am strip search and interigated at Vancouver air-port before I leave and when I come back. Its amazing how much information they have on a person.Why don't you keep your personal problems to yourself and reserve this forum for pussy!
That will change soon. I read serious reports, that actually about 7,000 workers loose their jobs today in UA.The recession in the US is generally accepted by economists as having started in Oct of 2007. We are currently at about the half way point. The recession in Europe is JUST now starting (probably 2 months into it) because the mbc problem is global and because of the exotic nature of many of these securities banks are holding Europe is on the leading edge of what will prove to be a very deep and long recession.
A year from now things will be very, very difficult for the vast majority of Ukrainians.
So, I'm checking out profiles on loveplanet.ua (that's the other big system separate from singles.ru ) and I run an advanced search for :
women aged 21 to 30, divorced with no kids, looking for sponsor
Search results in Kiev: zero (zilch)
How can this be? Ten minutes earlier, I checked out divorced WITH kids, looking for sponsor and I found thirty profiles. Do they wait until they have kids before they get divorced? Or -- equally implausible -- if they don't have kids and they get divorced, then they don't want a sponsor.
My theory: under the age of thirty, marriage is kinda, sorta a trial basis in Ukraine. Maybe you have a ceremony, maybe not. Maybe you register with city hall, maybe not. If you are really looking to do something exceptional, you get married at city hall and ALSO at the church.
BUT IN ANY EVENT, if the whole thing breaks up before you have any kids, then you were never married and never divorced. Or at least you don't think of yourself as divorced for answering silly questions on a dating web site.
Hi guys,
I have been looking around on the internet and I'm wondering. Why the hell is Belarus so expensive; $10-20 USD entrance fee for good clubs while the average salary is $470? And hotels are bloody not normal for Eastern europe. Okay, it's not like Moscow, but why so expensive? What kinda budget the average people have when they go out? Rich kids who's daddies are in oil?
Bez Bezarra
01-20-09, 06:52
Hi guys,
I have been looking around on the internet and I'm wondering. Why the hell is Belarus so expensive; $10-20 USD entrance fee for good clubs while the average salary is $470? And hotels are bloody not normal for Eastern europe. Okay, it's not like Moscow, but why so expensive? What kinda budget the average people have when they go out? Rich kids who's daddies are in oil?
A few nightclubs in Minsk charge hefty cover charges, for the same reason that nightclubs did back in the 1990's in Prague, Budapest, and Bucharest. They want to have the appearance of being exclusive and available only to the few rich kids and businessmen that will buy their girlfriends bottles of champagne.
AND, they also want to keep the younger guys that only have enough money for beer, OUT! And as long as the 18-22 year old hottest girls show up dressed like sex toys, the bouncers and door goons will always let them in.
Perfect example, on one flight home from Germany, I got lucky to sit next to a girl next door type, 19 years old, and absolutely 100% fuckable, in fact, by every right of God, she was just about as ripe as a peach about to burst, and I should've had her sweet juices all gushing down my chin. She was wearing jeans and a little top, so every time she got up or moved around, I got an eyeful of her tasty rack and her thong, curly blond hair, and cute face, just the kind of girl you want to take home and, well, you know. ;)
The point is, she was coming in with a 3 month temporary work visa, to be a bartender's assistant on a cruise ship. When I asked her how in the world she snagged the job, because the majority of those jobs go to Phillipino and Indonesian types of girls, though more now seem to come from East Europe too, her explanation was RIGHT OUT OF YOUR POST!!!
She said she got the job, BECAUSE her papa is an OIL big shot in GAZPROM!
All I could think aboout, was how many stupid latin bartenders on that cruise ship that she was gonna let get into her pants!! Fuck!! :(
Doctor_Skank
01-21-09, 07:11
All I could think aboout, was how many stupid latin bartenders on that cruise ship that she was gonna let get into her pants!! Fuck!! :(You never know chief. An ex-gf of mine from Kaliningrad, blonde, blue-eyed, tall (at least 5'10"), leggy and sexy vixen with an ample busom got a job on a cruise ship as a linen girl. In her 3 months cruise she only fucked one guy. A Canadian.
A CANADIAN!
Yeah, you read right.
Another spent 3 months in the US changing linen at a hotel and came back a virgin... and she was a major babe. It was Maryland though and she only worked with fat black dudes, which may explain her fidelity.
But yeah, bartender's assistant. Unless she was working with Isaac, she was serving after hours too... :)
Brian Moloney
01-21-09, 17:25
You never know chief. An ex-gf of mine from Kaliningrad, blonde, blue-eyed, tall (at least 5'10"), leggy and with an ample busom got a job on a cruise ship as a linen girl. In her 3 months cruise she only fucked one guy. A Canadian.
A CANADIAN!
Yeah, you read right.
Another spent 3 months in the US changing linen at a hotel and came back a virgin... and she was a major babe. It was Maryland though and she only worked with fat black dudes, which may explain her fidelity.
But yeah, bartender's assistant. Unless she was working with Isaac, she was serving after hours too... :)Yeah Shanker she was good too. HAHAHA No just kidding it wasnt me. But at least she had good taste. hehehehe
Bez Bezarra
01-23-09, 06:58
Now my back stabbing little dishonest hockey mom made up her latest round of lies against me, so that my Fat White cow of a boss can come fire me on Monday afternoon and replace me with her moron girlfriend dyke who knows nothing about business relations.
Fuck them all.
Welcome to hell.
Eat shit and bark at the moon.
Die a slow painful death.
Bez Bezarra
01-23-09, 06:59
Now my back stabbing little dishonest hockey mom made up her latest round of lies against me, so that my Fat White cow of a boss can come fire me on Monday afternoon and replace me with her moron girlfriend dyke who knows nothing about business relations.
Fuck them all.
Welcome to hell.
Eat shit and bark at the moon.
Die a slow painful death.
Bunch of retards!
Now my back stabbing little dishonest hockey mom made up her latest round of lies against me, so that my Fat White cow of a boss can come fire me on Monday afternoon and replace me with her moron girlfriend dyke who knows nothing about business relations.
Fuck them all.
Welcome to hell.
Eat shit and bark at the moon.
Die a slow painful death.
Bunch of retards!
For real? your jobless? not good my friend!
Bez Bezarra
01-23-09, 13:18
For real?
Gave me squat, just to make room for the owner's son.
They got away with it clean, because I'm not in a "protected" group, according to the fucking DOL.
I'm not black, asian, or hispanic, not a woman, not an immigrant, and under 55 years old.
So all they have to do is say, "Get out!"
That's not even the bad news. I found a new job, but the VP that hired me last summer, was FIRED by the company, on THANKSGIVING DAY, no less, and now my new FWC boss is the queen of mean, and naturally, she can sniff out a monger like me a mile away, and by next Monday, the odds are very high, she will bring in her own ringer to take my place.
Stay tuned. If I disappear next week, you will know that I have been unceremoniusly given the axe, and given up the fight. I won't care about this fucking board or anything else anymore. So long you bastards.
Doctor_Skank
01-23-09, 14:04
So long you bastards.So you in Hell, Bez! I'm the dude with the white shoes sitting in the corner sipping Black Russians. Come say hi!
F'in crisis is tearing me up. No Christmas for the devs this year, that much is for sure already. They can count out woman's day and birthdays too, unless they are happy with the gift of anal. Beatches.
sipping Black Russians.
I've always focused on Black Russians until I discovered ABC (Amaretto, Baileys, Cognac) in Tashkent.
A different kind of drink, equally strong and delectable, yet smoother. Dyevs love it. A lot.
:)
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