Kyiv

[DramaFree11]

Completely delusional, not sure why he makes these statements, I guess to try and make himself look good. He is the last person to listen to in Kiev. Anthony started off bad, but now is giving real good advice about Kiev, much better source.

48 hours since flying in, I had 5 girls. All 5 tried hard to please. 3 had great bodies, 2 were model quality. Eye candy on the streets is everywhere, even underground on subway trains.

I guess I am banging Super Models and Actresses, no I deal in the real world, not some fantasy world I have created, real sad.

[Arkiloko]

I have been staying year after year in a Guest House next to Dominos. Never knew there was a brothel on my doorstep. That would have saved many hours waiting for girls from agencies to turn up. How did you find out about it. I guess from your description that the entrance is somewhere through the gate directly on the left of Dominos. Have you got a contact lead or guidance? Regards- limarian.I thought the same. Often slept in apartment in Baseina near dominos and all I knew was that there was one in Baseina 12, but I didn't see any sight (there is a website "premier-escort".

https://goo.gl/maps/JpNVSpp9d9D2xBn89

Once I saw a bounce of sexy girls ringing a bell at Baseina 15, near Domino's. I'm pretty sure those were wg. You know. They went there.

https://goo.gl/maps/gLWnnofGmMequLDa7

Streetview is quite old, both look different now

[DramaFree11]

I thought the same. Often slept in apartment in Baseina near dominos and all I knew was that there was one in Baseina 12, but I didn't see any sight (there is a website "premier-escort".

https://goo.gl/maps/JpNVSpp9d9D2xBn89

Once I saw a bounce of sexy girls ringing a bell at Baseina 15, near Domino's. I'm pretty sure those were wg. You know. They went there.

https://goo.gl/maps/gLWnnofGmMequLDa7

Streetview is quite old, both look different nowI also use go there. Use to be real good, then it became kind of sketchy. They do have cameras all over the Stairwell, so the advice about dressing decent is not a bad idea.

[ChronoTrigger]

In all my years of mongering, I always thought the standard of dress wear for a brothel was a pair of sweats and a t shirt. In this case its more to do with making a good 1st impression. You are trying to get past 2 security doors, and have to rely on trust from strangers to let you in.

Am I allowed to display M's business contact number on this thread?

[Jsk1989]

Newbie / lurker here. So, I work remotely and am thinking of spending some time in Eastern Europe. Somewhere where I can rent a decent place for cheap, get work done and also of course access to pussy to relax myself.

I've been researching some options, and, am I crazy in saying that Romania (Bucharest) seems better than Ukraine at this point?

Hear me out.

I was able to easily find escorts in Bucharest on the forum of the site "nimfomane", looking through the posting there there is an abundance of girls charging 200-300 Leu / hour, which is $50-75 USD.

For Kiev on the other hand, I did not see any listing site where all escorts are aggregated together. KEC seems to be listing some pretty insane prices of $150+ USD.

So am I missing anything? The Ukraine sub-forum seems 10 X bigger than the Romanian one. How can this be the case if Romania seems to have more potential?

[Member #4722]

Newbie / lurker here. So, I work remotely and am thinking of spending some time in Eastern Europe. Somewhere where I can rent a decent place for cheap, get work done and also of course access to pussy to relax myself.

I've been researching some options, and, am I crazy in saying that Romania (Bucharest) seems better than Ukraine at this point?

Hear me out.

I was able to easily find escorts in Bucharest on the forum of the site "nimfomane", looking through the posting there there is an abundance of girls charging 200-300 Leu / hour, which is $50-75 USD.

For Kiev on the other hand, I did not see any listing site where all escorts are aggregated together. KEC seems to be listing some pretty insane prices of $150+ USD.

So am I missing anything? The Ukraine sub-forum seems 10 X bigger than the Romanian one. How can this be the case if Romania seems to have more potential?I have been to both and Kiev is way better than Bucharest. There are tons of fake ads and scammers in Romania. Most of the best hookers ply their trade elsewhere in Europe. I have met some Romanian girls at FKKs that said they started out in Bucharest but in my experience it is really tough to find a quality escort in Romania. My best experience there was with a woman in her 40's. If you are into massage, however, Romania has a very good legal massage scene and you can normally talk the girls into extra services for $. There are some very hot massage girls. Service starts around 35-40 Euros. When I visit these massage places are usually good enough to satisfy me.

[Arkiloko]

Newbie / lurker here. So, I work remotely and am thinking of spending some time in Eastern EuropeIMHO it's not good choosing a country from false or at least potential untrue escort website.

I meet romanian girls only in FKK and they can be super.

I meet also Bulgarian girls, really great, but when I was in Sofia it was a total delusion.

[PhotoSlider]

In this case its more to do with making a good 1st impression. You are trying to get past 2 security doors, and have to rely on trust from strangers to let you in.

Am I allowed to display M's business contact number on this thread?On that subject I align with Riina's philosophy)) Girls have to leave an impression on us, not vice versa.

If agency filters based on looks, then it might mean the following:

1. Do not let in homeless bums and drunk soccer fans, so that the girls are not harassed.

2. Expect more money from better dressed mongers.

I prefer good clean jeans and Ralph Loren T-shirt or something equally simple and relatively classy. Running / hiking shoes for my convenience.

I respect the ladies life style, but this is not like I am having a date at the Theater.

More to the point. Why bother going there at all? Have them deliver to you. Had model level girl last night for 1700 UAH an hour, passionate and strong. Then another cutie early this morning, not a model, but very conscientious 19 years old student.

Mamba is a good resource, but didn't get a chance, because my regulars learnt I am in Kiev, and bandwidth is already oversubscribed.

[Sofiy]

IMHO it's not good choosing a country from false or at least potential untrue escort website.

I meet romanian girls only in FKK and they can be super.

I meet also Bulgarian girls, really great, but when I was in Sofia it was a total delusion.Agreed. I've been to Germany and Spain and banged a few hot Romania and Bulgarian girls at FKK's and brothels for around 70-80 euro.

I went to Romania and Bulgaria and it was hard to find and not a great place for mongering.

If you want Romania and Bulgarian girls, go to Athens. You can go to the 20 euro street and find them easily there. I even found the deal of my life at one of the apartments where it was 20 euros for one really cute Romanian girl, or 20 euros for her slightly less hot friend. When I asked them difference, the hot one said, with me, it's covered BJ and normal sex. With her, you can do anything you want.

I chose the less hot one got an uncovered BJ, standard sex then did anal, all for 20 euros. This is Romanian girls in Athens. Never happened in Romania. The only problem with Athens is it's quickly Tijuana style. You're in there 15 minute max. No showers. Nothing. In and out.

Kiev, and Ukraine in general I like because you get 1 hour, there are both massage HJ places and sex, and prices start at 450 uah ($17) for HJ massages and sex is usually 1,000 uah ($37) on average for 1 hour.

[Boofer]

Did you meet them via mamba? Stripclubs? Please help, have a trip lined up and only 48 hours to play!!


Completely delusional, not sure why he makes these statements, I guess to try and make himself look good. He is the last person to listen to in Kiev. Anthony started off bad, but now is giving real good advice about Kiev, much better source.

48 hours since flying in, I had 5 girls. All 5 tried hard to please. 3 had great bodies, 2 were model quality. Eye candy on the streets is everywhere, even underground on subway trains.

I guess I am banging Super Models and Actresses, no I deal in the real world, not some fantasy world I have created, real sad.

[DramaFree11]

Did you meet them via mamba? Stripclubs? Please help, have a trip lined up and only 48 hours to play!!Avoid Kiev altogether.

[DramaFree11]

[Deleted by Admin]

[Riina]

Whatever happened to Barba? He was always generous sharing his Kiev contacts.

[Gargano19]

Avoid Kiev altogether.Why are you always hard on pushing tourists away from Kiev?

[DramaFree11]

Why are you always hard on pushing tourists away from Kiev?1. Too Many Scams and everyone lies. (Lying is a sport in Kiev, both male and females take part in this.

A. I got tired of watching friends getting screwed over.

2. Zero Night Life.

3. Way too many low end Sex Tourists pretending to be Italian Dudes.

4. Top Tier and Educated leaving the country.

A. Never talked about by the so called experts on this site, amazing. Major problem.

5. Strip Clubs and Top end Agencies major rip off to bang 6's or even lower, for $150 an hour or more, no way.

6. Why would anyone fly around the world to bang 5/6 for more money, then they would pay in there native country, makes zero sense.

Good Things.

1. City is Cheap.

2. Most People very nice, the further you get away from the center even better.

3. Food is above average.

4. Safe.

5. Opera / Theater is amazing.

6. Many things to do during the day, city empties a night.

[MagicSheep74]

Why are you always hard on pushing tourists away from Kiev?Because Dramafree is completely right- The top Levels girls are not available for sex starved tourist.

The culture of Ukraine is damaged one, customer satisfaction doesn't exist.

Language barrier is incredibly difficult, nightlife is very poor.

Mamba is hit and miss.

Tinder is full of scams.

You could py $300 for a takeout fro strip club, approximately #300 for 2 or 3 hours.

Myself and Dramafree have both been, and this is the reality, much better alternative.

People will continually say its amazing and they are banging models, but disregard this info as they don't provide t links to the girls or the places.

They can be find. Its a lie.

You'll find more accurate information in the North Korea thread, Ukraine ID Dead.

[Kozerog]

Admin2 posted a report today on the USASG that I feel is relevant to the recent discussion.
I travel all over the world and guys who pay more than market rate always seem to justify it the same way. It's my money I'll do what I want and they always subtly imply that it's too bad you can't keep up. All markets have expected norms, all of them, I don't care if it's for sweet crude oil or sweet tasty pussy, all markets have market rates. If you're paying more than market rate then you're being played. When I talk to guys who do it they always seem to be the simps that are trying to purchase affection more than sex. Not saying you are but just like you say "your choice if you want to go that route" I think it's yours to go your way. Why in the hell would you ever pay two hundred bucks for a pair of shoes you can buy for 80. I even know guys who insist on paying the chicks more than they charge.

As to the guys complaining, what he pays doesn't change what you pay, the chicks know the guys that do this are really buying financial domination and it won't effect your price so stop complaining about it.

Mis dos centavos.If a business pays above market rates to an employee, because that employee is worth more to them than market rate (such as because they don't have time to find and train a replacement, or employee's skills are specialized and so would not be as highly valued by market as by current employer, etc) does that mean employee is a financial submissive because he / she accepts above market pay? Too bad I didn't get abusively financially dominated like that back when I was working. We used the term golden handcuffs back then.

Similarly, lots of good reasons for overpaying a working girl. Maybe I'm not attractive enough to have experienced "you don't pay for sex, you pay them to go away afterwards" but I definitely understood the concepts of paying for a option on someone's time, paying to block potential competitors, paying extra so as to be first in line, etc. Those are more or less the reasons I pay my jewel list price of 4000 uah for 4 hours, with no regular customer discount, and additionally gave $1500 bonus at our last session of last summer. I want to make myself a valuable customer, so that she arranges her schedule so accommodate mine and otherwise tries to retain my business.

Same reason I've arranged to pay my regular landlady her going airbnb rate of $26/ day, in cash and without asking for long term discount for 3 month stay. That relationship is also long term and I want to be seen as a valued client, rather than a penny pinching haggler who'd she rather not see again.

Shoe argument above is bad analogy because shoes are commodity products rather than one-of-a-kind services. Better analogy would be paying extra to get priority SERVICE from a custom shoemaker, for someone in a rush and who can afford the extra cost and who only wants shoes from that particular shoemaker for whatever reason.

I'm just catching up on the forum, since I've been away for a while. Where AntonySun1996 might be going wrong is trying to buy feelings, which are not really for sale, especially not love. What you can buy is behavior. For example, I expect my jewel to treat me with respect and to be compliant in bed: behaviors in both cases. I also expect her to feel physical pleasure from the sex. That is a type of feeling, and thus not for sale, but rather I have to earn it. (Incidentally, I can tell she is feeling pleasure, or at least arousal, because of her smell, which I don't notice while we are in progress. After she leaves for the shower, I open the doors to the balcony and step out to look around. When I return to the room, Wow!, young woman in heat smell is overpowering. Noises can be faked, but not smell, I don't think.).

My jewel and I do have an emotional connection, simply because of the time we've spent together, but whether it's love or hate she feels I don't much care. Probably neither. Boredom possible, maybe mixed with a little fear. Maybe she finds me slightly repulsive sexually. Maybe secretly despises me for being so desperate that I have to pay women for sex. It doesn't matter what's in her head. What matters is that her external behavior is respectful and she feels physical pleasure. I notice she closes her eyes during sex, so maybe she is thinking of another man. Fine with me.

If Antony has a similar attitude to that girl of his, fine, regardless of how much he pays (note that $60000/ year is small compared to what Jeff Bezos paid his ex-wife, similarly for other divorced men). But if he's paying to make the girl love him, he's in the wrong track. Marriage to that girl would be a big mistake, IMO.

Also, I discussed this before I regards to Antony, back when I ranted about him paying big lump sums in advance (it later was revealed that he promised in advance but paid at the end). Big spenders do NOT ruin the market. More big spenders means more girls chasing those big spenders. Gossiping by girls about big spenders is good. DramaFree11 asserts that all the better girls in Kyiv have fled to Moscow. If so, then more guys like AntonySun1996 in will bring then back. More demand (by big spender mongers) creates more supply (of working girls). Most of that supply will NOT find a rich sugar daddy, since men as rich as AntonySun1996 are uncommon. Disappointed girls will then either abandon dreams of easy money entirely (unlikely) or accept realistic rates, which still provide reasonably easy money by Kyiv standards.

[DramaFree11]

If a business pays above market rates to an employee, because that employee is worth more to them than market rate (such as because they don't have time to find and train a replacement, or employee's skills are specialized and so would not be as highly valued by market as by current employer, etc) does that mean employee is a financial submissive because he / she accepts above market pay? Too bad I didn't get abusively financially dominated like that back when I was working. We used the term golden handcuffs back then.

Similarly, lots of good reasons for overpaying a working girl. Maybe I'm not attractive enough to have experienced "you don't pay for sex, you pay them to go away afterwards" but I definitely understood the concepts of paying for a option on someone's time, paying to block potential competitors, paying extra so as to be first in line, etc. Those are more or less the reasons I pay my jewel list price of 4000 uah for 4 hours, with no regular customer discount, and additionally gave $1500 bonus at our last session of last summer. I want to make myself a valuable customer, so that she arranges her schedule so accommodate mine and otherwise tries to retain my business..Glad you are back. Appreciate your feedback. One point of clarification. Girls from Kiev are not just going to Russia. They are moving all over the world. This is a major issue, first stop is Kiev the next is another country, Sorry Guys.

[DramaFree11]

Because Dramafree is completely right- The top Levels girls are not available for sex starved tourist.

The culture of Ukraine is damaged one, customer satisfaction doesn't exist.

Language barrier is incredibly difficult, nightlife is very poor.

Mamba is hit and miss.

Tinder is full of scams.

You could py $300 for a takeout fro strip club, approximately #300 for 2 or 3 hours.

Myself and Dramafree have both been, and this is the reality, much better alternative.

People will continually say its amazing and they are banging models, but disregard this info as they don't provide t links to the girls or the places.

They can be find. Its a lie.

You'll find more accurate information in the North Korea thread, Ukraine ID Dead.Thank you, appreciate it. Newbies need to pay attention, this information is coming from multiple sources, not just me. I will leave it at that.

[BigBear7777]

Hello other Forum members,

I am new here.

Visiting next weekend Kiev.

What are at the Moment the places to Be in Kiev?

Top 5 Hotspots for Bar and discos.

What are good places to be at Friday / Saturday / Sunday: afternoon / Night.

Any other recommendations for visiting Kiev.

Greeting from Amsterdam.

[Hecker]

I also agree with Dramafree. Now Kiev has become more difficult in comparison to what it was 2 years ago. Basically semipros have vanished from mamba,8's and above are reduced. All happened due to free visa to EU after June 2017.

Now to succeed with 8's and above you need serious cash flow at least 500 euro per day, Russian speaking skills, persistence and lots of experience with day game, night game. There are only two clubs which are good and the competition for the good looking girls is fierce.

But if one is compromised with 6's,7's there is no problem.

[Kozerog]

... Google maps shows something that looks like a police booth close to the entrance of the building. Does this sound like a bad idea to you when it comes to having girls come over to the apartment? Or not? If meeting girls from mamba or untrusted agencies, there is a possibility (according to PhotoSlider) or likelihood (according to me) or certainty (according to DramaFree11) that the girl will be so far from what was promised that you feel justified in sending her away without taxi fare. However, she may be accompanied by a thug in the car, who gets out and demands taxi fare on her behalf. If a police station nearby, just run towards it screaming. (If the police ask why you were screaming in the street, say you arranged for a private Russian lesson in your apartment with a princess but a pig showed up instead. You can't tell the truth since prostitution is illegal in Ukraine.).

So that's a good reason to be near a police station. My regular apartment is located 100 m from a police station and I am happy with that near proximity, precisely because of safety issues. Police bribery has been mostly eliminated in recent years for tourists (they may still target brothels, escort agencies and independent escorts).

Regarding models, did you guys know that true fashion models are mostly somewhat unattractive, if considered as women? Fashion models are chosen by gay men, whose ideal of human beauty is a 12 year old boy: narrow hips, flat chest, male face, etc. True fashion models typically resemble David Bowie more than a normal woman. My ideal of human beauty would be Playboy centerfolds from the 1960's, before political correctness set in. Those centerfolds would never make it as fashion models because they are too fleshy.

[Stevie69]

Yes. But why let it get to that point? Any advice that ends with "run screaming" is probably not sound advice. Let us go back several steps. First, If the photos are taken form a professional "nude models" site, are otherwise clearly professional quality, are too good to be true, or are otherwise clearly fake, then do not take the bait. Second, tell the girl to send you her photos on Whatsapp, viber, email or skype. Third, tell her once, twice, and three times, that if she is not the girl in the photos, you will send her back. Third, wait for her outside the apartment, sitting casually on a nearby bench. Presumably, she does not know how YOU look, and even if you have your photo on viber, surely you know how to blend in. If the girl who shows up is not the one in the photos, just text her to tell her "thank you but you are not the girl in the photo" (if you feel polite, as she wasted your time too! And immediately block her number. Finally, just move on with the next girl on your list.

How often does it happen? Very few semi-pros would openly advertise themselves on escort sites. On other sites that can pass as "dating" sites", the girls can pretend to be in for "dating" and only reveal themselves after you have made contact. The usual message is "I meet only for money". The the negotiation starts. Personally, I have had many fakes, even after insisting repeatedly that they will be turned away if they are not the real girl. Sometimes I have had a girl show up who was not the one in the photo, but close enough, or good enough. In many case, I have also had the real girl from the photo show up, exactly as promised.

About models, yes, real models look a little weird.


If meeting girls from mamba or untrusted agencies, there is a possibility (according to PhotoSlider) or likelihood (according to me) or certainty (according to DramaFree11) that the girl will be so far from what was promised that you feel justified in sending her away without taxi fare. However, she may be accompanied by a thug in the car, who gets out and demands taxi fare on her behalf. If a police station nearby, just run towards it screaming. (If the police ask why you were screaming in the street, say you arranged for a private Russian lesson in your apartment with a princess but a pig showed up instead. You can't tell the truth since prostitution is illegal in Ukraine.).

So that's a good reason to be near a police station..

[Gargano19]

1. Too Many Scams and everyone lies. (Lying is a sport in Kiev, both male and females take part in this.

A. I got tired of watching friends getting screwed over.

2. Zero Night Life.

3. Way too many low end Sex Tourists pretending to be Italian Dudes.

4. Top Tier and Educated leaving the country.

A. Never talked about by the so called experts on this site, amazing. Major problem.

5. Strip Clubs and Top end Agencies major rip off to bang 6's or even lower, for $150 an hour or more, no way.

6. Why would anyone fly around the world to bang 5/6 for more money, then they would pay in there native country, makes zero sense.

Good Things.

1. City is Cheap.

2. Most People very nice, the further you get away from the center even better.

3. Food is above average.

4. Safe.

5. Opera / Theater is amazing.

6. Many things to do during the day, city empties a night.I see. It makes sense.

I was in Kiev for a week, so no comparison in terms of experience.

My time was good, I had 2 mambs cobtacts ready and they turned out to be genuine. But it was just ine week, ao hard to make a judgement.

I was planning to go again to Kiev next month, but I think I will go to Moscow. Sounds like a much better option.

[DramaFree11]

I see. It makes sense.

I was in Kiev for a week, so no comparison in terms of experience.

My time was good, I had 2 mambs cobtacts ready and they turned out to be genuine. But it was just ine week, ao hard to make a judgement.

I was planning to go again to Kiev next month, but I think I will go to Moscow. Sounds like a much better option.God choice. Moscow is a million times been. Let me know if you need any help.

[TinyHippo]

Yes. But why let it get to that point? Any advice that ends with "run screaming" is probably not sound advice. Let us go back several steps. First, If the photos are taken form a professional "nude models" site, are otherwise clearly professional quality, are too good to be true, or are otherwise clearly fake, then do not take the bait. Second, tell the girl to send you her photos on Whatsapp, viber, email or skype. Third, tell her once, twice, and three times, that if she is not the girl in the photos, you will send her back. Third, wait for her outside the apartment, sitting casually on a nearby bench. Presumably, she does not know how YOU look, and even if you have your photo on viber, surely you know how to blend in. If the girl who shows up is not the one in the photos, just text her to tell her "thank you but you are not the girl in the photo" (if you feel polite, as she wasted your time too! And immediately block her number. Finally, just move on with the next girl on your list..You give common sense advice, but it looks like a lot of people need it. Never have a girl come to your room or apartment. Meet them in the front of the hotel or of a restaurant nearby. Some girls will insist on coming straight to your room and that should be a warning sign for you. Have some good excuses like you are at dinner / eating, you need a card key for elevator, or the buzzer / intercom in the apartment is broken.

Also there are many scams on both ways. Girls are given fake money, blackmailed, and all kinds of weird shit. So, some use fake photos because they are much uglier but some just do it for safety. Most will give you real photos on Viber or Viber video chat with you for a minute. Meeting them outside in this nice weather will let you scout their body at least. Of the people that reply to you on Mamba 50% will be pimps / agency and 25% real girls. I still think Mamba is a lot of work. If you have 10 Viber numbers when you land, maybe you will only meet 3-4 girls.

I still love Kyiv though. Ukrainian girls love foreigners and I am still having a bit of success on Tinder / Instagram for normal romances. For all of you that complain about the old days, those days are gone everywhere. Instagram has killed prices globally, but at the same time it has made girls more open to sex for money because they want what they see everyday online (travel, clothes, nice restaurants). I know average looking Kyiv girls being flown to Germany or Switzerland for $$ A hot girl anywhere will not have a problem making 10 k a month with a sugar daddy. Our job is to find the newbies or shy ones before they go "pro".

[Kozerog]

Yes. But why let it get to that point? Any advice that ends with "run screaming" is probably not sound advice...I actually wouldn't scream. Just running down the street would suffice, because anyone following would stop as soon as they saw the police cars.

Anyway, your advice is good and close to what I did back in summer 2017 when I was grinding through girls to find a keeper. Once I made it clear I would send the girl away without taxi fare if she didn't match photo, no further problems with fake photos agency girls. And never had such problems with independents. Still had problems with personalities that weren't compatible, but that's not a scam, just the normal process of finding someone I really like.

In any case, comforting to have police station nearby just to deter street crime. Street crime currently minimal in central Kyiv, but can be a serious issue in run down districts on the outskirts of the city, or so I've been told. For example, near locations labelled Vyshneve (right bank) or Troieshchyna (left bank) on google maps.

[Visal]

Guys I am in Kiev for the 3rd time in a year. I have been here in summer, unfortunately in winter and now fortunately again in summer.

Lets meet up, go to the best clubs together, hang around with each other's babes or something. Beer is on me! :)

Private message me.

[Riina]

There are only two clubs which are good and the competition for the good looking girls is fierce.What clubs?

[Visal]

Hello other Forum members,

I am new here.

Visiting next weekend Kiev.

What are at the Moment the places to Be in Kiev?

Top 5 Hotspots for Bar and discos.

What are good places to be at Friday / Saturday / Sunday: afternoon / Night.

Any other recommendations for visiting Kiev.

Greeting from Amsterdam.You should not miss out the maidan and Dnipro river-beach as tourist attractions. I would suggest Rio club if you do not want to get mugged by the bouncers. City is totally safe but beware of a few notorious clubs.

[Kozerog]

Also people come here thinking their $200 will get them a 10 and that is not the case. Cute (but not hot) Mamba girls are making 3000-5000 USD per month. Do not be a fool and think they are poor students. I have seen one semi-pros Tinder accounts and she had over 6000 people that had swiped her right (Tinder Gold). She could literally swipe 6000 profiles and each guy would want to fuck her. On Mamba, they get 100-200 emails a day. How many would pay $100 for two hours? I am guessing a large percentage of foreigners would. Until you've looked closely into the day to day life of an outcall escort, you have no idea how difficult it can be getting customers to actually show up and pay. There is a concept of "timewasters", meaning guys who call up and talk to escorts and discuss services and prices, but never schedule a meeting. Instead they use the excitement of talking to a real live escort as fodder for a monster wank session. Or worse, they actually schedule the meeting but at a fake address. Ratio of timewasters to bonafide callers is typically 10 to 1, and that's only counting the guys who call, not the ones who just fantasize without calling.

Fact is, most guys nowadays even in a country as rich as the USA are broke nobodies for whom even $50/ hour is a painful hit to the wallet. For average Turks, $100 is big money. For average sex-starved Indians and Pakistanis (perhaps the bulk of these 6000 foreigners), $100 is very big money.

Yes, SOME mamba girls are making $5000/ month. Most are making next to nothing, especially if they are selective about who they meet.

In other words, you are guessing wrong that a large percentage of foreigners who swiped right will actually carry through with handing over $100 in hard cash. For most, having to pay ruins the illusion of a beautiful girl finding the man sexually attractive. Others are intimidated by the idea of meeting a girl way over their own sexual market value. Others will be content to wank off to the fantasy of meeting and avoid messy reality, with or without wasting the girls time as discussed above. Others simply can't afford $100.


Technology has changed everything. 20 years ago a girl had no way to find a paying guy except with a pimp, working the streets or in a maybe in a club. It is easy to be an online independent workers now and I laugh because you older guys do not get it.Actually, some of us old men understand modern business very well. Internet commerce definitely crushes old-school middlemen (bricks and mortar stores, pimps, agencies, etc), but what it does to the balance of power between buyers and sellers depends on the particular market in question. For example, internet absolutely destroyed recorded music sellers despite greatly increased demand for recorded music. Likewise, free video porn has destroyed paid porn. Whereas writers of books are mostly doing better than ever, since lower list prices on ebooks are compensated for by higher total sales and cutting out publisher middlemen.

With respect to paid sex, my impression is that prices are being driven down in most rich counties due to the huge increase in supply by semi-pros, especially the sugar daddy / baby phenomenon, and reduced demand due to increased use of sex substitutes (wanking to video porn or cam girls) and harder economic conditions for young men such that they can't afford the real thing as much as previously.

I lurk at the SAAFE forum, where British escorts talk shop, and they are unanimous in agreeing that prices have been crushed over the past 30 years partly due to reduced demand (more wanking by guys too broke to pay for the real thing) but mostly by greatly increased supply, partly from influx of East Europeans, partly from native Brits, because less of a stigma associated with escorting among younger girls and because harder economic situation for young civilian girls in Britain than 30 years ago.

Now, of course, Ukraine is not a rich country like Britain and influx of East Europeans to London means outflux from Kyiv, among other places. But nevertheless, I think the same factors that are driving down prices in London are also operating in Kyiv. When a girl no longer has to pay big pimp or agency fees, basic microeconomic theory tells us prices will drop. Yes, there is increased demand from Turks with more disposable income and easier access to Ukraine by low cost airlines. But there is also increased supply due to bad economic conditions in Ukraine since 2014 (or maybe even since 2009).

What about Thailand, where prices are said to be rising? Probably that is mainly due to rising wealth in Thailand overall than due to technological changes affecting the paid sex market. Thailand was once very poor, now it is less poor. If per capita GDP doubles, sex prices can also be expected to double, all other things being equal.

What about girls at Kyiv strip bars demanding $250/hour? Proves nothing except higher supply of rich Arabs, since most sex business takes place away from those strip bars.

Enough theory. On the ground reports by guys like PhotoSlider and Steve69 suggest no difficulty getting quality girls at $100 for 2 hours, at least for guys who know what they are doing and don't act like simps. I have no problems getting my quality girl for $150 for 4 hours (I like longer sessions). Whether these "quality" girls are 10's or not, I'm not going to waste time arguing. Under 25yo and "pretty" should be sufficient to men aged 40 and above. (Admittedly, my girl is 28, which is fine with me, since I'm more concerned with personality compatibility than age at this point.).

[DramaFree11]

Until you've looked closely into the day to day life of an outcall escort, you have no idea how difficult it can be getting customers to actually show up and pay. There is a concept of "timewasters", meaning guys who call up and talk to escorts and discuss services and prices, but never schedule a meeting. Instead they use the excitement of talking to a real live escort as fodder for a monster wank session. Or worse, they actually schedule the meeting but at a fake address. Ratio of timewasters to bonafide callers is typically 10 to 1, and that's only counting the guys who call, not the ones who just fantasize without calling.Sorry, I have respectably disagree.

Example P.S.

1. Is on big budget and spends a great deal of time networking.

2. Also leaves out major details and exaggerated.

3. Standards are debatable.

Lots of Guys with running the streets in Kiev with money.

Girls have multiple options.

1. Traveling to other countries.

2. Working at High End Strip / Agencies.

High End girls or even slightly above average are not going to bang guys for multiple hours for $70. Also, when you add in Travel Expenses / Time you are paying way more then the rate they are claiming for average girls.

[DramaFree11]

Let's be clear about grinding away in Kiev. You are going to meet 10-20 girls to find one Quality Girl, depending on your standards, maybe little more or less. This takes a significant budget, time and effort, so be prepared.

[Kozerog]

Let's be clear about grinding away in Kiev. You are going to meet 10-20 girls to find one Quality Girl, depending on your standards, maybe little more or less. This takes a significant budget, time and effort, so be prepared.First post you've ever made where I'm more pessimistic. Maybe 30 to 1 if you have my standards. So what? Experienced Kyiv mongers understand that Kyiv is best suited for long term sponsoring of semi-pros, many of whom who are not on mamba and not even actively seeking customers, and who exercise "face control", meaning you have to seduce them just like regular girlfriends. Yes, getting those sorts of girls does indeed take lots of time. Ideally, man will spend several months a year in Kyiv each year for years on end, so that he builds up a harem like PhotoSlider or simply has one reliable girl like me.

Given how cheap Kyiv is, girl who can earn $100 working there just 3 days a week on average, or about $15000 / year, is doing better than one making twice that in Moscow or four times that in London. Plus she doesn't have to leave family and friends behind. Plus smart girls (and isn't being smart part of what we mean by quality?) understand that escorting is not forever, and they have to invest for the future. Buying real estate in Kyiv much cheaper than in Moscow or London, and less risk of scams for native Ukrainians than foreigners.

On another topic. Interesting site at https://www.aemal.org/. AEMOL probably acronym for "agentsvo escort-modelej". Primary author of articles evidently original mamasan at Kiev Escort Club / Gia agency (some articles still use Gia name). Lots of insight in articles into minds of girls attracted to sex work: appalled by word "prostitute"; dazzled by word "model"; soothed by notion that clients mostly "successful businessmen" in their 30's and 40's, versus unspecified something else (drunken Brits on stag party vacation, crude lower class village Turks, smelly old pensioners, etc); concerned about safety (only travel internationally to clients verified by agency, etc) and agency abuse (no arbitrary fines because of alleged customer complained, not required to live in company apartment and account for every minute of time to prevent seeing clients behind agency's back, only one high-paying client per day rather than multiple low-paying clients, etc).

[Kozerog]

A hot girl anywhere will not have a problem making 10 k a month with a sugar daddy.$10 K / month after tax means maybe $20 K pre-tax in high tax countries, plus man needs money for himself, plus most rich men have families, so more money for children and wife / ex-wife. Maybe $500 K / year pre-tax to afford $10 K / month sugar baby. Supply of such men severely limited worldwide. Supply of pretty 20 yo girls is vastly larger.

Limited supply of famous 20 yo instagram "influencers" who know how to make themselves stand out from ordinary pretty 20 yo girls using makeup and clever photography tricks, so if chasing famous girls is your thing, then yes, you might have to pay up.

[Stevie69]

Several thoughts, specific to Kiev and in general.

ABOUT GUYS TO OVERPAY. Whether they think that money will buy them love, or are just fooled into paying far more than they would have to pay back home, I think they do make it more difficult for everyone else. As girls become more experienced in the trade, they hear about these gold mines, or sometimes stumble upon them accidentally. Naturally, they will try to hold other opportunities at bay in the hope of landing high-paying gigs.

Imagine if you are unemployed, and you know there are jobs out there for which you are fully qualified but difficult to get that pay 100 K / year (choose your currency). Alternatively, you can easily get a 25 K / year job that might actually be enough for you to live. You will try to hold on for the 100 K job for as long as you can. It is not only the money, but also the time. If you take that low paying job you will have no time to search for that high paying job.

Same goes for working girls. It is even worse because these are not jobs, but rather short –term gigs. Furthermore, at the rate some of you guys are paying, the comparison should not be between 25 K and 100 K, but maybe between 25 K and 250 K. Finally, if the girls are not greedy and work only as much as they need to make ends meet, one high paying gig can take them off the market for days, weeks, and they ways some guys here pay, even months.

Of course, the competition for these high paying gigs is intense. Yes, a girl online gets contacted by dozens of men who are willing to overpay. However, these guys are willing to overpay for many girls, not only her. The hotter she is, the more time she will have to spend figuring out who is real, who has the most Grivnas to waste, and who is stupid enough to do so. At the same time, she is competing with dozens or even hundreds of girls who are focused on high paying gigs only. You can tell because of how quickly you get a reply, sometimes within seconds. They know that you are calling everyone, not just her, and they better act quickly.

So, I really doubt that all mamba girls are getting several thousand UAH for their work. Maybe a few are doing so, occasionally, but the rest are either spending their time seeking high paying gigs, or just taking more reasonable offers.

THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS- Finding clients is just the cost of doing business. Buying nice clothes, high heels, make-up, and paying for taxis are just part of doing business. Ditto for security, if they deem it necessary. It is all included when the prices is calculated and negotiated.

THE INTERNET AND PRICES- I remember back in the early 90's, I do not remember the exact year, when the price of insurance suddenly plummeted without any apparent reason. Well, they would not tell the reason why, one year later, your premiums suddenly dropped precipitously. The reason was that average customers had more selection. The effect does not work in the opposite direction because high paying customers already had a high number of opportunities. To oligarchs, pretty young women are what mosquitoes are to a moose; they are always surrounded by a cloud of them.

APARTMENT GIRLS- Really? Do you really want to be the 5th or 10th guy of her shift? The great thing about Kiev is that you can have a gorgeous 20 year old student of 30 year old single mum for a reasonable price (1000 to 2000 UAH! In one hour they can make as much as they could make in a week, so if they find you even remotely attractive, they would be happy so spend some quality time with you. If you are mildly repulsive, you might have to fork out 2500 UAH. The best moment for me is when the girl momentarily forgets that she is doing it for the money, and she displays spontaneous joy and affection. I prefer it when (I think that) I am the only man she has had sex with that day. Maybe I am just a romantic.

MY STRATEGY- I will be back in June, July, and maybe August. I have a handful of 5-10 regulars, some of whom already know that I am coming. It is a rotating pool of students and young mums who are always happy to introduce me to their friends. As some drop out, others enter the pool. For women, the scariest part of the job is meeting with a strange man to do something that is technically illegal. Not only could the man be dangerous, but he could be ugly, fat, smelly, disgusting, or just a really bad lover. So, recommendations by word of mouth work perfectly.

In addition, I also try Badoo, Mamba, and Tinder, and sometimes pull one or two that are worth remembering for next time. I have never had any success with any of the escort sites, except many years ago with GIA. I got exactly what was offered, but yes, I overpaid, but then I learned.

I also have a much larger pool of what I call "long term pros" or "lifetime pros", women who are seeking marriage. I have already contacted them online and emailed or texted on and off for a few weeks or even months. Many will become unavailable as soon as I arrive. Of the rest, they will only lead to a coffee, a lunch, or a walk in the park, at least in the first meeting. Some will want to go to an expensive restaurant, and occasionally there will be one that is a real scammer. Luckily, I know what to look for and I have learned how to say "NO' in several languages (English, Italian, Spanish. . .). Only twice have I had sex on the first meeting, a few times in the second, and more often by the third. It is a balance between using their sexuality to get me hooked while not seeming too easy to be a long term partner. Maybe I will find the one who will make me want to give up all the others. Can it happen? I do not know. I do know, however, that, if it ever happens, I will have to retire early and move to Ukraine. There is no way I am marrying anyone in a western gynocentric society!

[Arkiloko]

The great thing about Kiev is that you can have a gorgeous 20 year old student of 30 year old single mum for a reasonable price (1000 to 2000 UAH! In one hour they can make as much as they could make in a week, so if they find you even remotely attractive, they would be happy so spend some quality time with you.Stevie tell us how you can do a "pool" like yours.

Really, you say no to escort sites (I fully agree); no to apartment's girls, maybe tinder / mamba but I think it's more like escort sites.

But if I have to go around kreshatik trying with young girls walking around, I don't think it will be a success.

[DramaFree11]

Stevie tell us how you can do a "pool" like yours.

Really, you say no to escort sites (I fully agree); no to apartment's girls, maybe tinder / mamba but I think it's more like escort sites.

But if I have to go around kreshatik trying with young girls walking around, I don't think it will be a success.You are totally correct the last place you want to go in Kiev for girls is K. Street. You are in for a rude awakening if you plan on hanging out there and getting anything above a 5. Normal Girls will not hang out there now, has a very bad reputation and the avoid that part of town. The further you get away from the center your chance, but this will take a lot of work. You need to meet at least 25 girls to meet one decent, good luck with that. I have always said meeting girls on the street is your best chance to meet decent girls.

[Visal]

DramaFree11 I have seen many of your successful posts in Moscow thread. I just do not know why you want to be active in this thread if you do not like Ukraine. Can I ask if this is your home country?

[DramaFree11]

DramaFree11 I have seen many of your successful posts in Moscow thread. I just
do not know why you want to be active in this thread if you do not like Ukraine. Can I ask if this is your home country?Lived three on 3 separate occasions and have visited in many occasions. Just not a good place now, beside being cheap, and nice city for walking, not for me. Too many scams and I do not find the girls attractive at all anymore, Also, I love the night life and that is real bad or non existent.

[Kozerog]

DramaFree11 I have seen many of your successful posts in Moscow thread. I just do not know why you want to be active in this thread if you do not like Ukraine. Can I ask if this is your home country?At one time, I suspected he was paid by some Moscow nightclub to lure people who were planning to go to Ukraine, to instead go to that nightclub in Moscow. But his posting history shows that very unlikely. He's just a guy who gets hooked on some idea and won't let go until he convinces everyone else he's right. And there is truth in what he says. Namely:

1) Kyiv does not work well for short-term mongers without existing contact list, unless you are satisfied with KEC (both prices and girls).

2) Most guys who fail in Kyiv are too discouraged and embarrassed to tell their story in this forum.

The Moscow thread has guys complaining about the same things DramaFree11 complains about in Kyiv: fake profiles, low quality girls, bad service, scams everywhere, etc. DramaFree11 says those complaints are because the guys are hopeless losers who would fail no matter where they go. I suspect DramaFree11 somehow found a system that works for him in Moscow, and now he is a repeat customer so gets consistent good service, but there are also lots ways to fail in Moscow, same as in Kyiv. Similarly, I and Stevie69 and PhotoSlider have found systems that work for us in Kyiv. Without a system, failure is likely on both Moscow and Kyiv, IMO.

What's definitely true is that baseline cost level in Kyiv is currently less than half that of Moscow. Furthermore, there's a good chance the ruble will recover value versus dollar / euro and Moscow will have another boom and again be one of the most expensive cities in the world. So if you put in a lot of work now building a mongering system in Moscow, your costs might skyrocket in the future, and then what? Whereas Kyiv much less likely to become very expensive in future, so the work you put in to build a system can last a lifetime without ever becoming too expensive. That's my long term thinking.

[DramaFree11]

I am not advocating Moscow, I only talk about it because, I go there frequently and love it. Let's be clear, I think any country is currently better then Kiev. Especially if you are paying any more than $120, and you are interested in meeting attractive girls. Ukraine should be your last choice, unless you have a very small budget, then Latin America or Asia.

[Arkiloko]

fake profiles, low quality girls, bad service, scams everywhere, etc. That's like everywhere. Come on people, which country doesn't have these stuff on sex turism scene?

Maybe some new country, some place closed till yesterday. But pimps know the game, girsl too.

Yes, maybe 10 years ago it was different, here or there. But now, with internet and globalization.

I think you can't easy find an heaven for sex, not an hour away from Europe.

I know Poland and Ukraine, I've been in Bulgaria. The only place I met nice girls, not fake and price fixed are FKK.

[Hecker]

What clubs?Carribean and Chi. This is what Dramafree complains about. If you go to Carribean Arabs and Turks will destroy you since the club is full of them and for Chi you need to pay 300 euro for table to get in so why bother?

And in mamba, tinder you have very little choice after 2017 and free visa for Ukrainian girls who can visit their sponsors in the West. So why bother and not travel to a more closed country like Russia?

This has some logic but one has to analyze the whole situation it is not so simple. It is also very individual some get frightened by mass presence of Arab Turks and others see them as prey, very easy competition. It is also cultural where you come from.

[Hecker]

The options in Kiev are sponsoring, semipros and pros with the occasional freebie. Till 2017 I arranged simply with semipros from mamba since there were plenty of them and very good options. From 2017 and free visa for Ukrainians I prefer sponsoring which is very expensive but it is the only way to get 8's as tourist. With pros and semipros you get maximum 7's.

But to find and keep the sponsorettes you have to come often, have pick up skills and spend a lot, about 500 euro per day. You have to build a harem from regulars otherwise it is not worth coming to Kiev in my opinion.

[Super6stud9]

This is funny. I met a hot, expensive, Ukrainian model type girl in Moscow, and she recommended I go to Ukraine.

I told her I only like beautiful girls.

Planning a trip to Ukraine in August. I speak understandable Russian.

Any high quality models contacts. Pm me.

Good websites with verified pictures, pm me too.


Completely agree with report. If you spend any more then $100-150 hour in Kiev you are completely wasting your money. You can go to any of the Surrounding Countries, and bang top tier girls, for the same price or cheaper, these girls are just not available in Kiev, especially now. Especially for newbies. Guys like to claim these girls are readily available, but in my opinion they are just not available anymore, unless you work in Kiev, speak the language or have major local contacts, but even then very difficult, if not impossible.

When I was living there and the major decline became very noticeable, we had a joke among my friends, if you wanted to find a Hot Ukraine girl, you needed to go to a different country. I was shocked the number of Ukraine Girls I met in Moscow and trust me that was not on purpose, I try to avoid them, but I have to say the once that I did meet in Moscow, I did like much better then the girls I was meeting on my last couple of trips in Kiev. They were much more driven, hard working, and I had zero issues with scams with those girls, unlike what I was dealing with in Kiev. I real find it strange how this is mentioned so little on this site, because it is a major drawback. I think the guys that like Kiev, choose to ignore this issue.

As far as finding girls in Kiev, still possible, but does take a lot of work. If you have street game, you have chance, but slim. Meeting girls on the computer can be very difficult, as said by many.

[AntonySun1996]

Completely delusional, not sure why he makes these statements, I guess to try and make himself look good. He is the last person to listen to in Kiev. Anthony started off bad, but now is giving real good advice about Kiev, much better source.People learn from their previous mistakes, don't they?

Just because one started off bad doesn't mean he's disqualified of giving advises. No need to say Kiev is a mongering spot where 90% newbies fail.

[AntonySun1996]

1. Too Many Scams and everyone lies. (Lying is a sport in Kiev, both male and females take part in this.

A. I got tired of watching friends getting screwed over.

2. Zero Night Life.

3. Way too many low end Sex Tourists pretending to be Italian Dudes.

4. Top Tier and Educated leaving the country.

A. Never talked about by the so called experts on this site, amazing. Major problem.

5. Strip Clubs and Top end Agencies major rip off to bang 6's or even lower, for $150 an hour or more, no way.

6. Why would anyone fly around the world to bang 5/6 for more money, then they would pay in there native country, makes zero sense.City empties at night.

This is the funniest thing I've ever heard about Kiev.

[AntonySun1996]

If a business pays above market rates to an employee, because that employee is worth more to them than market rate (such as because they don't have time to find and train a replacement, or employee's skills are specialized and so would not be as highly valued by market as by current employer, etc) does that mean employee is a financial submissive because he / she accepts above market pay? Too bad I didn't get abusively financially dominated like that back when I was working. We used the term golden handcuffs back then.

Similarly, lots of good reasons for overpaying a working girl. Maybe I'm not attractive enough to have experienced "you don't pay for sex, you pay them to go away afterwards" but I definitely understood the concepts of paying for a option on someone's time, paying to block potential competitors, paying extra so as to be first in line, etc. Those are more or less the reasons I pay my jewel list price of 4000 uah for 4 hours, with no regular customer discount, and additionally gave $1500 bonus at our last session of last summer. I want to make myself a valuable customer, so that she arranges her schedule so accommodate mine and otherwise tries to retain my business.

Same reason I've arranged to pay my regular landlady her going airbnb rate of $26/ day, in cash and without asking for long term discount for 3 month stay. That relationship is also long term and I want to be seen as a valued client, rather than a penny pinching haggler who'd she rather not see again..Agree with your point.

The difference between shoes and girls is that you can always find shoes of good quality whenever you go to the market, while supply of quality girls is scarce and their is a great competition among the horny mongers, let alone paying for sex is illegal in most countries. Sex as a commodity is way more complicated than shoes or cruel oil. You have to pay more than your competitors to secure your quality pussy supply. This is also true in other service industries. Some people would pay a large amount of money to a lawyer with excellent skills, way above the industry norm.

As for love, money can't buy love, but money can buy the time that the girl would like to spend with you, and during the time you spend together the girl could have more chance learning about your attractive personalities, which sometimes would lead to love (remember this could backfire if you had terrible personalities). This already worked on me and my girl told me she loves me recently.

[AntonySun1996]

Some people just can't stop shit talking Kiev and exaggerating the negative parts of the city in every possible way.

DramaFree11 claimed that Kiev is the worst city for mongering in the world. This is ridiculously wrong if you have got common sense. I am 100% sure that Luxembourg and Pyongyang are worse cities for mongering. If Kiev is the worst there would be not repeated sex tourists from abroad to Kiev, which is far from true. You may not like Kiev but please do not spread misleading messages.

I don't think he is doing this because he is paid by Moscow nightclubs or Kremlin or whatever, but rather more likely because of some sort of PTSD acquired from previous bad experience in Kiev. I am talking seriously as this sort of thing does happen a lot. Just get over it, or seek help if needed. Apologies if this is not the case.

Parts of his posts about the downside of Kiev mongering scene are true, but this could be applied to almost any city in the world, Moscow, Bangkok, Tokyo, Beijing, London, you name it. No need to be picky when talking about Kiev. Yeah, before the Maidan revolution the prices were cheaper and there were more hot girls, in the 90's there were even more hotties charging significantly less, and back in 1945 you could fuck a bunch of 10's with a few slices of bread. There's no point constantly talking about the downside, as it happens every day, everywhere. Simply because the golden day were gone doesn't make Kiev lose all of its attractiveness.

So here are my humble thoughts about Kiev. Besides the general quality and quantity of young girls engaged in sex industry or just civilian girls accessible to foreign mongers, the fact that western feminism hasn't managed to prevail in Ukraine makes the mongering experience more pleasant compared to some western countries. Kiev is also less racist than perhaps most of other white Caucasian cities in terms of mongering. The political correctness hasn't been established in Kiev and girls sometimes say and words or something like that, but in most cases girls don't give a shit about your ethnicity as long as you got money. In England many working girls just write "sorry I don't meet black people / Arabs / Indians / Pakistani / etc."

Maybe Moscow is better, but Kiev is certainly not the worst. I myself had a few decent punts in Moscow, but did not stay there long enough to be qualified to compare between the two cities.

[Riina]

You have to pay more than your competitors to secure your quality pussy supply.Not really. Girls come and go. It's more a matter of just getting out there and exploiting the moment. Of course, that costs.

[DramaFree11]

City empties at night.

This is the funniest thing I've ever heard about Kiev.October-March, City is empty at night. Subtract the Sex Tourist in the Summer / Spring, I am sure it is pretty empty.

[DramaFree11]

This is funny. I met a hot, expensive, Ukrainian model type girl in Moscow, and she recommended I go to Ukraine.

I told her I only like beautiful girls.

Planning a trip to Ukraine in August. I speak understandable Russian.

Any high quality models contacts. Pm me.

Good websites with verified pictures, pm me too.If you want to go to Kiev, no problem, good luck with that. Definitely do not go in August, that is the worst time of year. Go to Odessa or go late Sept, everyone is on holiday. It will be you and all the Sex Tourist.

[Kozerog]

...Definitely do not go in August, that is the worst time of year. Go to Odessa or go late Sept, everyone is on holiday. It will be you and all the Sex Tourist.August is bad everywhere in Europe in some respects, other than for hiking in certain high mountains (if you're into that, has nothing to do with mongering). Odessa and all the other seaside resorts are crowded in August and I hate crowding. Yes, Kyiv is hot and many people leave the city then, but it is also very peaceful in the city then, and I like peace and quiet. Since I pay her well, my jewel also hangs around in August. And where would she go anyway? Back to the village where they make her do yard chores? Maybe for a few days, then she's happy to get back to Kyiv.

[Visal]

So far.

I liked this trip so far. I have met 4 best girls, enjoyed full GFE with 2 girls for sure, they are ready to come to India with me forever. Also half GFE with 1, this one is still in progress, can become better.

Yes, some are right, it is very hard and time consuming to get the best girls. Met some scams, they know exactly how to scam you quickly. Sometimes I think Bangkok was far better and near to me. But then Slavic beauty is all about colorful eyes, cute princess looks, slim figures, submissive attitude.

Italy can be my next destination as you can see and experience the city while mongering, at slightly higher rates. As per experts, it takes 15 days to experience Italy and nearby Rome as a normal tourist. So here you get Mongering + Sight seeing.

But if you are into big boobs and small pussy then Bangkok or Colombia is better. Thailand being more friendly for sure for newbies. Like even a dumb guy would manage to get laid daily with what he desires, with half the cost of Kiev in Bangkok. Also there is lot of sight seeing in bangkok for mongers as well as normal tourists. Everything is half the cost in Thailand, including tasty food.

[Stevie69]

Well, first, you have to go at least twice per year. Second, you have to treat them well, of course, without overpaying. After having a good session, you ask them whether they have any friends, and, if possible, have a good threesome. It helps if you see them more than once during a visit. Then you just keep their contact information. Contact them a couple of times while you are away (at least with "Merry Christmas" and "happy woman's day" and then advise them when you are coming back. Repeat.


Stevie tell us how you can do a "pool" like yours.

Really, you say no to escort sites (I fully agree); no to apartment's girls, maybe tinder / mamba but I think it's more like escort sites.

But if I have to go around kreshatik trying with young girls walking around, I don't think it will be a success.

[PhotoSlider]

Gentlemen!

Forget all this nonsense comparing apples to oranges and Thai or even Romanian pussy to Ukrainian.

It is May 26, 22:45. Today was The Day of The Kiev City celebrated. Lots and lots of beautiful ladies everywhere. Just get out in the streets if you are here, and see for yourself.

Visal, let me know please if and when the three of us are willing to get together. I am taking it relatively easy tomorrow Monday, and Tuesday 12 noon my GF arrives for a 2 nights stay.

Lost the exact count after 25 since arrival. Rejected one today, - good body, ugly face. Had 3 very good mates in the last 15 hours. Last call girl has been ordered for massage and long oral, but it didn't last. Again, put her doggie style and fucked proper.

[DramaFree11]

Some people just can't stop shit talking Kiev and exaggerating the negative parts of the city in every possible way.

DramaFree11 claimed that Kiev is the worst city for mongering in the world. This is ridiculously wrong if you have got common sense. I am 100% sure that Luxembourg and Pyongyang are worse cities for mongering. If Kiev is the worst there would be not repeated sex tourists from abroad to Kiev, which is far from true. You may not like Kiev but please do not spread misleading messages.

I don't think he is doing this because he is paid by Moscow nightclubs or Kremlin or whatever, but rather more likely because of some sort of PTSD acquired from previous bad experience in Kiev. I am talking seriously as this sort of thing does happen a lot. Just get over it, or seek help if needed. Apologies if this is not the case..PTSD nope, but if I spent $5000 a month on a girl plus expenses and missed work for a couple of weeks, I would have a major case of PTSD. That being said I do agree with you recent reports. You talk about the good and bad of Kiev. Also you let people know just how much work and money it can cost, good or bad.

Clarification, I have not been to Kiev March-July, but I have been there more then 60 times and lived there on 3 separate occasions. The city is empty at night from Oct. -Feb. August they maybe people, but primarily Sex Tourist and the girls that can not afford to leave the on Vacation. Middle of July-August are the worst times to be in Kiev.

[AntonySun1996]

I'm in Kiev but will only be able to meet from June 4. I will be in Kiev until 23. Anyone up for some drinks just pm me. Beers on me.

It's the best season to visit Kiev. The weather is great and lots of eye candies to enjoy.

[AntonySun1996]

Anyone here familiar with Ukrainian laws? If your girlfriend / sugar baby gets pregnant from you, do you have any legal obligation to pay for child support and / or marry her? If so, how much do you have to pay approximately? It seems abortion is legal in Ukraine, but is it a common practice here? How many girls would actually choose to abort? (In my country it is crazily common. The government even used to encourage abortion until recent years.) It seems there are many single mothers in Ukraine, though.

Also, on average how many creampies does it usually take for the girl to get pregnant? For those who often practice unprotected sex with your girls, how do you think about the risks of pregnancy?

Asking it for a friend of mine.

[PhotoSlider]

I'm in Kiev but will only be able to meet from June 4. I will be in Kiev until 23. Anyone up for some drinks just pm me. Beers on me.

It's the best season to visit Kiev. The weather is great and lots of eye candies to enjoy.We shall meet.

Who else is in the City?

PM please.

[PhotoSlider]

Some people just can't stop shit talking Kiev and exaggerating the negative parts of the city in every possible way.

DramaFree11 claimed that Kiev is the worst city for mongering in the world. This is ridiculously wrong if you have got common sense. I am 100% sure that Luxembourg and Pyongyang are worse cities for mongering. If Kiev is the worst there would be not repeated sex tourists from abroad to Kiev, which is far from true. You may not like Kiev but please do not spread misleading messages.

I don't think he is doing this because he is paid by Moscow nightclubs or Kremlin or whatever, but rather more likely because of some sort of PTSD acquired from previous bad experience in Kiev. I am talking seriously as this sort of thing does happen a lot. Just get over it, or seek help if needed. Apologies if this is not the case.

Parts of his posts about the downside of Kiev mongering scene are true, but this could be applied to almost any city in the world, Moscow, Bangkok, Tokyo, Beijing, London, you name it. No need to be picky when talking about Kiev. Yeah, before the Maidan revolution the prices were cheaper and there were more hot girls, in the 90's there were even more hotties charging significantly less, and back in 1945 you could fuck a bunch of 10's with a few slices of bread..Speaking like a wise man, Antony.

Kiev can traumatize male psyche. Happened to me more than once, but in a different way. I wasn't scammed or dumped. It's those cases when I find a diamond in the rough, and then leave for the airport, and for a week or two can not find peace with my own self.

Therefore it is paramount to set one's priorities while visiting. I come to meet new girls and enjoy their company to full extent. Not to marry. I do establish long term relationships lasting for years, but I am realistic. Girls meet me for entertainment and financial support.

Rejecting Kiev IMO means depriving oneself of true pleasures in one of the best mongering destinations. To me it is the best, but my case is not typical for this Forum. Maybe I represent 5-10% of the visitors, not necessarily top.

[DramaFree11]

Anyone here familiar with Ukrainian laws? If your girlfriend / sugar baby gets pregnant from you, do you have any legal obligation to pay for child support and / or marry her? If so, how much do you have to pay approximately? It seems abortion is legal in Ukraine, but is it a common practice here? How many girls would actually choose to abort? (In my country it is crazily common. The government even used to encourage abortion until recent years.) It seems there are many single mothers in Ukraine, though.

Also, on average how many creampies does it usually take for the girl to get pregnant? For those who often practice unprotected sex with your girls, how do you think about the risks of pregnancy?

Asking it for a friend of mine.Play with fire you will get burned.

[Visal]

Anyone here familiar with Ukrainian laws? If your girlfriend / sugar baby gets pregnant from you, do you have any legal obligation to pay for child support and / or marry her? If so, how much do you have to pay approximately? It seems abortion is legal in Ukraine, but is it a common practice here? How many girls would actually choose to abort? (In my country it is crazily common. The government even used to encourage abortion until recent years.) It seems there are many single mothers in Ukraine, though.

Also, on average how many creampies does it usually take for the girl to get pregnant? For those who often practice unprotected sex with your girls, how do you think about the risks of pregnancy?

Asking it for a friend of mine.Everything is possible if you have the money. Corruption is normal here. I do not know about legal obligations towards child etc though.

Only one shot can get her pregnant if she has had the periods in the past 2 weeks. Unprotected sex is very dangerous. If you get the 4 common STDs, doctors would put an ear bud in your penis to get a swab for lab testing. HIV is not that serious by the numbers but it can also happen.

[Visal]

Gentlemen!

Forget all this nonsense comparing apples to oranges and Thai or even Romanian pussy to Ukrainian.

It is May 26, 22:45. Today was The Day of The Kiev City celebrated. Lots and lots of beautiful ladies everywhere. Just get out in the streets if you are here, and see for yourself.

Visal, let me know please if and when the three of us are willing to get together. I am taking it relatively easy tomorrow Monday, and Tuesday 12 noon my GF arrives for a 2 nights stay.

Lost the exact count after 25 since arrival. Rejected one today, - good body, ugly face. Had 3 very good mates in the last 15 hours. Last call girl has been ordered for massage and long oral, but it didn't last. Again, put her doggie style and fucked proper.Yes sure, lets meet

Did not knew about Kiev day unfortunately. I have been ordering food from ubereats, glovo and zakaz since 2 days, just too much work on laptop

[Stevie69]

Tony is finally talking some sense!


Some people just can't stop shit talking Kiev and exaggerating the negative parts of the city in every possible way.

DramaFree11 claimed that Kiev is the worst city for mongering in the world. This is ridiculously wrong if you have got common sense. I am 100% sure that Luxembourg and Pyongyang are worse cities for mongering. If Kiev is the worst there would be not repeated sex tourists from abroad to Kiev, which is far from true. You may not like Kiev but please do not spread misleading messages.

I don't think he is doing this because he is paid by Moscow nightclubs or Kremlin or whatever, but rather more likely because of some sort of PTSD acquired from previous bad experience in Kiev. I am talking seriously as this sort of thing does happen a lot. Just get over it, or seek help if needed. Apologies if this is not the case.

Parts of his posts about the downside of Kiev mongering scene are true, but this could be applied to almost any city in the world, Moscow, Bangkok, Tokyo, Beijing, London, you name it. No need to be picky when talking about Kiev. Yeah, before the Maidan revolution the prices were cheaper and there were more hot girls, in the 90's there were even more hotties charging significantly less, and back in 1945 you could fuck a bunch of 10's with a few slices of bread. There's no point constantly talking about the downside, as it happens every day, everywhere. Simply because the golden day were gone doesn't make Kiev lose all of its attractiveness..

[Stevie69]

Any law would probably be nearly impossible to enforce. If you are worth millions and she knows it, or if you are a politician with a reputation to protect, she might find a lawyer to work on her behalf for a percentage of the settlement. Otherwise, no chance. A good idea is never to give them your real name.

The chance of fertilization per successful copulation is less than 5%. This is randomly, any time of the month, with any woman aged 18 to 30. Of course, it varies depending on the girl's age, her ovulation stage, flowback, orgasm, etc. It can go up to 25% Also, on YOUR sperm quality and quantity. What does 5% mean? It means that there is a 95% of not getting pregnant, or 19 in 20 times. So, you can figure out the 50% chance; it is just 0. 95 to the power of X such that it equals 0.50 (0. 95 ** X = 0. 50). "X" its the number of times you would have to do it to have a 50% chance.

It varies depending on the girl's age, her ovulation stage, flowback, orgasm, etc. Also important is whether the girl wants to get pregnant; if so, she can drastically change to odds. For instance, she can just bite the condom while giving you head, just before you penetrate her, see you when she is most fertile, see you several times when she is most fertile, take the condom out of the garbage and inseminate herself, keep her legs up for 5 minutes after ejaculation, etc.


Anyone here familiar with Ukrainian laws? If your girlfriend / sugar baby gets pregnant from you, do you have any legal obligation to pay for child support and / or marry her? If so, how much do you have to pay approximately? It seems abortion is legal in Ukraine, but is it a common practice here? How many girls would actually choose to abort? (In my country it is crazily common. The government even used to encourage abortion until recent years.) It seems there are many single mothers in Ukraine, though.

Also, on average how many creampies does it usually take for the girl to get pregnant? For those who often practice unprotected sex with your girls, how do you think about the risks of pregnancy?

Asking it for a friend of mine.

[AntonySun1996]

Everything is possible if you have the money. Corruption is normal here. I do not know about legal obligations towards child etc though.

Only one shot can get her pregnant if she has had the periods in the past 2 weeks. Unprotected sex is very dangerous. If you get the 4 common STDs, doctors would put an ear bud in your penis to get a swab for lab testing. HIV is not that serious by the numbers but it can also happen.But is it possible for the girl to get pregnant if sex occurred after 2 weeks after her period? I've heard that eggs die within 20 hours or so after ovulation, but don't know if pregnancy would still be possible after that. I am quite ignorant in this field.

I don't worry about STDs or HIV, as I am sure that my girl is clean. I don't practice unprotected sex until I get to know the girl quite well.

[Arkiloko]

Speaking like a wise man, Antony.

Kiev can traumatize male psyche. Happened to me more than once, but in a different way. I wasn't scammed or dumped. It's those cases when I find a diamond in the rough, and then leave for the airport, and for a week or two can not find peace with my own self.

Therefore it is paramount to set one's priorities while visiting. I come to meet new girls and enjoy their company to full extent. Not to marry. I do establish long term relationships lasting for years, but I am realistic. Girls meet me for entertainment and financial support.

Rejecting Kiev IMO means depriving oneself of true pleasures in one of the best mongering destinations. To me it is the best, but my case is not typical for this Forum. Maybe I represent 5-10% of the visitors, not necessarily top.I agree entirely.

[PaoloKnoks]

Bonus pics.Hi,

I am in Kiev for two weeks, I like very much this big breast girl, have you contact number of her? Some more sexy photos or just this?

Thanks in advance.

[Stevie69]

Just when I thought you were developing little wisdom!

Yes, that is the most fertile time. Half way into her ovulation cycle. They teach this in grade 8!

How can you possibly know your girl is clean? You know that she is having unprotected sex with sex tourists.

Your only hope is if the kid is not yours, so make sure you, not her, carry out a parentage test.

That is what happens when you start flashing too much money in front of women.


But is it possible for the girl to get pregnant if sex occurred after 2 weeks after her period? I've heard that eggs die within 20 hours or so after ovulation, but don't know if pregnancy would still be possible after that. I am quite ignorant in this field.

I don't worry about STDs or HIV, as I am sure that my girl is clean. I don't practice unprotected sex until I get to know the girl quite well.

[Visal]

But is it possible for the girl to get pregnant if sex occurred after 2 weeks after her period? I've heard that eggs die within 20 hours or so after ovulation, but don't know if pregnancy would still be possible after that. I am quite ignorant in this field.

I don't worry about STDs or HIV, as I am sure that my girl is clean. I don't practice unprotected sex until I get to know the girl quite well.Chances reduce hugely after 2 weeks, but in my case, I have got the girl pregnant in just one go after this 2-week time. It depends on the health of the girl and boy.

haha something is telling me....are you checking if it is his or someone else's? ...The most common confusion in guys.

[Gargano19]

Chances reduce hugely after 2 weeks, but in my case, I have got the girl pregnant in just one go after this 2-week time. It depends on the health of the girl and boy.

haha something is telling me....are you checking if it is his or someone else's? ...The most common confusion in guys.That is the problem with Unprotected sex, she can just try to put the baby on you.

[DramaFree11]

Just when I thought you were developing little wisdom!

Yes, that is the most fertile time. Half way into her ovulation cycle. They teach this in grade 8!

How can you possibly know your girl is clean? You know that she is having unprotected sex with sex tourists.

Your only hope is if the kid is not yours, so make sure you, not her, carry out a parentage test.

That is what happens when you start flashing too much money in front of women.Read my mind. I have been chased by lawyers, they can make your life a living Hell. Just when you think they are gone they will reappear, especially if they are on commission.

[AntonySun1996]

Chances reduce hugely after 2 weeks, but in my case, I have got the girl pregnant in just one go after this 2-week time. It depends on the health of the girl and boy.

haha something is telling me....are you checking if it is his or someone else's? ...The most common confusion in guys.She's not pregnant yet, I'm just wondering what would happen if she is.

[AntonySun1996]

Just when I thought you were developing little wisdom!

Yes, that is the most fertile time. Half way into her ovulation cycle. They teach this in grade 8!

How can you possibly know your girl is clean? You know that she is having unprotected sex with sex tourists.

Your only hope is if the kid is not yours, so make sure you, not her, carry out a parentage test.

That is what happens when you start flashing too much money in front of women.But according to the articles I read on the internet, eggs die within 20 hours after ovulation, while semens can survive within the woman's body for 5-7 days, so the most fertile time is the 5-7 day period before the eggs die.

[TinyHippo]

Just when I thought you were developing little wisdom!

Yes, that is the most fertile time. Half way into her ovulation cycle. They teach this in grade 8!

How can you possibly know your girl is clean? You know that she is having unprotected sex with sex tourists.

Your only hope is if the kid is not yours, so make sure you, not her, carry out a parentage test.

That is what happens when you start flashing too much money in front of women.Thanks for having some common sense on this board!

Most countries have parental reciprocation laws with Ukraine. That means you will have to pay child support for 18 wonderful years if the baby is yours. I am not sure about China, but in the EU or in the USA you can go to jail for not paying child support even if it is in a foreign country.

[PhotoSlider]

Dear fellow mongers. Do not do threesomes without explicitly discussing with girls what is it that you want from them.

As usual one of my ladies stormed out ashamed of what I tried to get her into, while the other one greatly enjoyed the process and delivered much more than I anticipated.

Just like with anything else, do not assume. And even better. Get the girls that know each other sexually real well.

In the end, they left me a happy man.

[PhotoSlider]

Just when I thought you were developing little wisdom!...

...That is what happens when you start flashing too much money in front of women.And as Stevie said, negotiate in UAH, not in USD / EUR.

Last night: two gorgeous young ladies started at $100 an hour each. Ended up being 2 hours for 2250 UAH each, 4500 UAH total + 100 UAH taxi. Finally more than 3 hours and great sex. Kiev rocks!

[Travv]

I think you can handle the average child support award in Ukraine. According to an article, "From 1 July 2018 the sustenance level had been raised from 1,700 hryvnya (USD $65) to 1,777 hryvnya ($67) on July 1, 2018. " https://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/child-support-in-ukraine/ The hard part will be to avoid paternity fraud. Every effort will be made to have the rich foreigner stuck with the monthly child support bill, so when he leaves, she and her local Ukrainian boyfriend and their baby will be living off of you. I understand that fake paternity DNA tests are available online for a small price. . .


Thanks for having some common sense on this board!

Most countries have parental reciprocation laws with Ukraine. That means you will have to pay child support for 18 wonderful years if the baby is yours. I am not sure about China, but in the EU or in the USA you can go to jail for not paying child support even if it is in a foreign country.

[TinyHippo]

I think you can handle the average child support award in Ukraine. According to an article, "From 1 July 2018 the sustenance level had been raised from 1,700 hryvnya (USD $65) to 1,777 hryvnya ($67) on July 1, 2018. " https://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/child-support-in-ukraine/ The hard part will be to avoid paternity fraud. Every effort will be made to have the rich foreigner stuck with the monthly child support bill, so when he leaves, she and her local Ukrainian boyfriend and their baby will be living off of you. I understand that fake paternity DNA tests are available online for a small price..Isn't that for Ukrainian men? Most of us are foreigners. Not a lawyer, but if I got a girl pregnant the child would become an EU citizen. Then she can sue me for child support in my country which is anywhere from 10-20% of my salary.

[Visal]

There are some girls, they will ask you a lot of questions. Some would ask only a few questions. All of the answers will lead them to know you and to categorize you. If you fit into the category that they want, then god save you.

Just like tourists are asked by the tour guides or road thugs about are they here for a business trip as well? How long are they here? If you are here for a long time and not for business then you must be rich is what the road thugs come to know. If you answer for 2 days for business, then also you are rich is what the thugs would come to know.

Similarly the girls will ask you and come to know how much you can be looted.

[Stevie69]

Yes, the amount itself is not much for anyone from the "west", but you would at least have to make sure it is your kid. That means carrying on your own paternity test.

I am not a family law lawyer, so, I am just suggesting this as a possibility, but she might be able to sue you for child support in your country. Laws in the "west" have become exceedingly gynocentric, so, if she were to file a suit in your country, she might get significantly more child support, enough for her, the boyfriend and their kid to live in luxury.

There are some really horrible stories out there, cases in which the father unable to pay is put in jail, until he can pay, which he cannot do because he is in jail, so technically for the rest of his life. Just check the story of Dave Foley (from "Kids in the Hall" and "News Radio".

It is better is you always use and condom and a fake name, as I do.


I think you can handle the average child support award in Ukraine. According to an article, "From 1 July 2018 the sustenance level had been raised from 1,700 hryvnya (USD $65) to 1,777 hryvnya ($67) on July 1, 2018. " https://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/child-support-in-ukraine/ The hard part will be to avoid paternity fraud. Every effort will be made to have the rich foreigner stuck with the monthly child support bill, so when he leaves, she and her local Ukrainian boyfriend and their baby will be living off of you. I understand that fake paternity DNA tests are available online for a small price. . .

[AntonySun1996]

Thanks for having some common sense on this board!

Most countries have parental reciprocation laws with Ukraine. That means you will have to pay child support for 18 wonderful years if the baby is yours. I am not sure about China, but in the EU or in the USA you can go to jail for not paying child support even if it is in a foreign country.I would rather claim custody of the child than paying child support.

[Sponsor74]

PTSD nope, but if I spent $5000 a month on a girl plus expenses and missed work for a couple of weeks, I would have a major case of PTSD. That being said I do agree with you recent reports. You talk about the good and bad of Kiev. Also you let people know just how much work and money it can cost, good or bad.

Clarification, I have not been to Kiev March-July, but I have been there more then 60 times and lived there on 3 separate occasions. The city is empty at night from Oct. -Feb. August they maybe people, but primarily Sex Tourist and the girls that can not afford to leave the on Vacation. Middle of July-August are the worst times to be in Kiev.Hello Dramafree, good report regarding the seasons to visit Kiev but what recommendations about places to find young students type. My experiences near Maydan are too much old profits, I am trying now the shopping malls but not always 100% success.

[Kozerog]

I am not a family law lawyer, so, I am just suggesting this as a possibility, but she might be able to sue you for child support in your country. Laws in the "west" have become exceedingly gynocentric, so, if she were to file a suit in your country, she might get significantly more child support, enough for her, the boyfriend and their kid to live in luxury.
It is definitely a possibility. The worst of it is that the USA consulate in the foreign country may help out with the process.

Consulate staff usually do their jobs in a perfunctory manner, but they always have the option of getting enthusiastic about and working overtime on cases that catch their fancy. Imagine some fat ugly feminist stationed overseas in a country where the women are unusually pretty, so that the feminist has absolutely no hope of attracting any male attention whatsoever. Bored, sexually frustrated, seething with rage at American men tourists and expats (whom she thinks of as HER men) ignoring her and screwing local women instead. To fill her abundant spare time, she participates in local feminist consciousness raising events and whatnot, gets to know the local feminists (and there are always of few of these even in places like Ukraine), hears stories about a local woman who an American man impregnated and abandoned.

To get a child support judgement, foreign woman and child will need to show up personally before USA court, but that obstacle can be easily overcome. Our feminist in the consulate can fast-track a tourist visa, then put the woman in touch with her feminist friends in the USA, who offer to pay airfare for mother and child, provide a place for them to stay while in the USA, hire a lawyer to file suit. Assuming reasonable evidence that man had sexual relations with woman, court can order DNA sample from man. Feminist in consulate presumably coached woman how to collect such evidence, so this hurdle should be easy to overcome.

I am not a lawyer and it wouldn't matter if I was one, because family courts in the USA have such wide latitude to interpret and apply the law as they see fit ("whatever is in the child's best interest") that effectively there is no set law. If some judge sees DNA test results that show the man is indeed the father of the child, that judge can pretty much order any child support he chooses. Think about it: what is the difference between a Ukrainian mother on tourist visa versus an illegal Hispanic immigrant who lives permanently in the USA? Very little, and we know that courts already allow illegal immigrants to use courts to obtain child support. Anyway, appeals courts pretty much ignore appeals to family court decisions, so doesn't matter if the judge doesn't actually follow the existing law. Bottom line, if the judge rules that the man has to pay, it's a done deal for the next 18 years.

Furthermore, it also doesn't matter what the law is now, in theory or practice, since the law can always be changed in the future. In the USA at least, family law changes apply retroactively, unlike other laws. That is, if child support rules are changed to be more oppressive to men in the future, these changes apply to existing children, even if the man would never have had those children had he known how oppressive the rules would be.

Things might be different in other countries than the USA.

P.S. If you're over 55, just get a vasectomy like I did when I reached that age.

[IndusMint]

Always remember that all women between the age age of 20 and 30 are looking for a relationship that ends in marriage, hence v in summer they all go to cities where they increase their chances, . Odessa in ukraine, constanta mamaia in romania, varna in Bulgaria.

Very tough to compete with this goal, so always better wAit for early September when girls return to universities and need funding for it.

Summer time is to fullfill their goal of marriage!!

[ShawMan74]

I love this forum so much, always great guys with solid advice. So much support. Yall are the best.

A 2 month expedition to eastern europe starts in a few weeks and I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. I'm flying into Kiev but intend on touring bucharest, warsaw, belgrade and odessa. For reference, I've been to moscow and st petersburg about 5 years ago. For the most part I'm a south america honk, but something is telling me I might be missing something. Ultimately I'm looking for a happier life and a LTR (preferably with a track star / ballerina, we don't get those here in the USA anymore HAHA). You can see the track record of my posts over the years, speaks for itself. I'm very single so everything's cool.

Between those 5 cities, how do you guys suggest I partition my time? Is odessa even worth it or a skip? Any airport scams I need to watch out for? I won't be traveling with more than 70 lbs of luggage so trip fees are not an issue. I will need a driver / guide everywhere I go because I will do some real estate surveying for work. I intend on action / adventure / activity too on the count of my mild hyperactivity disorder LOL. Again, thanks.

[DramaFree11]

Always remember that all women between the age age of 20 and 30 are looking for a relationship that ends in marriage, hence v in summer they all go to cities where they increase their chances, . Odessa in ukraine, constanta mamaia in romania, varna in Bulgaria.

Very tough to compete with this goal, so always better wAit for early September when girls return to universities and need funding for it.

Summer time is to fullfill their goal of marriage!!Good point, but not all Ukraine girls are looking to marry foreigners. They may say that, but most have no desire to go to the states or Canada. Europe yes, much closer to there lifestyle.

[GDreams]

I love this forum so much, always great guys with solid advice. So much support. Yall are the best.

A 2 month expedition to eastern europe starts in a few weeks and I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. I'm flying into Kiev but intend on touring bucharest, warsaw, belgrade and odessa. For reference, I've been to moscow and st petersburg about 5 years ago. For the most part I'm a south america honk, but something is telling me I might be missing something. Ultimately I'm looking for a happier life and a LTR (preferably with a track star / ballerina, we don't get those here in the USA anymore HAHA). You can see the track record of my posts over the years, speaks for itself. I'm very single so everything's cool.

Between those 5 cities, how do you guys suggest I partition my time? Is odessa even worth it or a skip? Any airport scams I need to watch out for? I won't be traveling with more than 70 lbs of luggage so trip fees are not an issue. I will need a driver / guide everywhere I go because I will do some real estate surveying for work. I intend on action / adventure / activity too on the count of my mild hyperactivity disorder LOL. Again, thanks.Odessa in summer is great! If you are going to organise a driver start with an airport pickup. I recommend staying in apartments the a google search, there are many good agencies.

[Stevie69]

You paint a horrible but actually very possible story. I can just imagine the consulate woman: 40-something, fat, ugly, short blue hair, ugly glasses, wearing a tent for a dress, angry that every woman in Kiev is far more attractive than she is, angry that her male colleagues completely ignore her and date hot girls in their 20's (Actually, there might not be any male colleagues, as she might have already accused them of sexual harassment and got them fired), angry that the few men that are left avoid her like the plague, angry at male sex tourists who have found a way to flee, albeit temporarily, the crushing oppression of western gynocentric societies. Just angry. At you.

Two things to add. As explained, it is up to the judge to interpret the law, and the judge will likely be another man-hating feminist.

First, you do not even have to be the father. There have been instances in which the woman has simply claimed that the guy was fulfilling a paternal role in the child's life. The poor bastard was just dating a single mum and maybe got a little attached to the kids. That is enough! So, the woman has to just say that she told the kid that the foreigner who came twice a year for sex was actually "daddy", and the kid considered him as such. A few photographs of the two of you playing catch complete the argument.

Second, whether you are the father or not, she can wait until the day before the kid's 18th birthday to file papers. She would then get a lump sum for 18 years of support, at the appropriate levels in your country, not hers. Why would she wait? Well, because it is better to get you when you are at the peak of your career. The amount will be based in your current salary. Actually, the court might base your payments on your highest salary over the past 18 years! If you lose your job and ends up flipping burgers for a living, too bad for you; the payments do not change. If you cannot pay, you go to jail.

Tony, tony, tony, what are we going to do with you? You would get custody of a child only if the woman does not want it. The only exception might be the Arab countries where women do not have any rights.


It is definitely a possibility. The worst of it is that the USA consulate in the foreign country may help out with the process.

Consulate staff usually do their jobs in a perfunctory manner, but they always have the option of getting enthusiastic about and working overtime on cases that catch their fancy. Imagine some fat ugly feminist stationed overseas in a country where the women are unusually pretty, so that the feminist has absolutely no hope of attracting any male attention whatsoever. Bored, sexually frustrated, seething with rage at American men tourists and expats (whom she thinks of as HER men) ignoring her and screwing local women instead. To fill her abundant spare time, she participates in local feminist consciousness raising events and whatnot, gets to know the local feminists (and there are always of few of these even in places like Ukraine), hears stories about a local woman who an American man impregnated and abandoned.

[TinyHippo]

I love this forum so much, always great guys with solid advice. So much support. Yall are the best.

A 2 month expedition to eastern europe starts in a few weeks and I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. I'm flying into Kiev but intend on touring bucharest, warsaw, belgrade and odessa. For reference, I've been to moscow and st petersburg about 5 years ago. For the most part I'm a south america honk, but something is telling me I might be missing something. Ultimately I'm looking for a happier life and a LTR (preferably with a track star / ballerina, we don't get those here in the USA anymore HAHA). You can see the track record of my posts over the years, speaks for itself. I'm very single so everything's cool.

Between those 5 cities, how do you guys suggest I partition my time? Is odessa even worth it or a skip? Any airport scams I need to watch out for? I won't be traveling with more than 70 lbs of luggage so trip fees are not an issue. I will need a driver / guide everywhere I go because I will do some real estate surveying for work. I intend on action / adventure / activity too on the count of my mild hyperactivity disorder LOL. Again, thanks.I would skip Warsaw and maybe Odessa. I have lived in both cities and they are really hard to monger in. Just look at the Warsaw forum. Like 20 guys are happy to be banging some 35 year old that seems to be the only reliable escort in the city. I have had good luck in Kyiv and Belgrade. English is pretty widely spoken in Belgrade which shocked me where I was there two months ago. Maybe look into Bulgaria. Lots of girls by the beach and in Sofia if you like skinny brunettes. I really do and that is why I am always happy when I am in Belgium for work and can visit the RLD.

[JamesPearle]

Whenever I have arranged 3-some my standard procedure is to recruit girl #1. Tell her what I want and then either ask her to recruit girl #2 on the spot (if there are other semi-pros around) or recruit girl #2 for the next visit. Maybe promise her a little money extra money on the next hookup as a finders fee. Works flawlessly and allows you to sit back and relax and watch the recruiting as a little extra entertainment before the action.


Dear fellow mongers. Do not do threesomes without explicitly discussing with girls what is it that you want from them.

As usual one of my ladies stormed out ashamed of what I tried to get her into, while the other one greatly enjoyed the process and delivered much more than I anticipated.

Just like with anything else, do not assume. And even better. Get the girls that know each other sexually real well.

In the end, they left me a happy man.

[Gargano19]

I would rather claim custody of the child than paying child support.Okay. I remembered from your previous posts you said you were somewhere around 25. You should be cery careful with Unprotected sex, as you seem fine with taking child custody. Not sure you would want that as such a young age. I know you said you would "prefer" out of the two but if some WG finds this out, that you can ve persuaded, she might try to push some baby to you, which might not even be yours. Just use some common sense.

[Travv]

Anecdotal. I had a Mexican worker with US citizenship a year ago who told me of his child support adventure. His Mexican wife ran off with a rich guy in Mexico and she got a divorce and child support for the daughter. The wife wouldn't let him see his daughter, so he returned to the USA and refused to pay the Mexican child support order. The wife has been trying to collect child support but cannot get a visa to chase him for child support in California. He told her, when you let me see my daughter, then I will pay you the child support, but she refuses. . . A large powerful force protects American men from foreign golddiggers. The US Border Patrol and ICE. If you get a foreign woman US citizenship or green card, then she can easily come to where you live and make your life hell in a US divorce court.


Yes, the amount itself is not much for anyone from the "west", but you would at least have to make sure it is your kid. That means carrying on your own paternity test.

I am not a family law lawyer, so, I am just suggesting this as a possibility, but she might be able to sue you for child support in your country. Laws in the "west" have become exceedingly gynocentric, so, if she were to file a suit in your country, she might get significantly more child support, enough for her, the boyfriend and their kid to live in luxury.

There are some really horrible stories out there, cases in which the father unable to pay is put in jail, until he can pay, which he cannot do because he is in jail, so technically for the rest of his life. Just check the story of Dave Foley (from "Kids in the Hall" and "News Radio".

It is better is you always use and condom and a fake name, as I do.

[AntonySun1996]

Okay. I remembered from your previous posts you said you were somewhere around 25. You should be cery careful with Unprotected sex, as you seem fine with taking child custody. Not sure you would want that as such a young age. I know you said you would "prefer" out of the two but if some WG finds this out, that you can ve persuaded, she might try to push some baby to you, which might not even be yours. Just use some common sense.As per my previous posts I'm not seeing WGs now, I have turned an ex-WG to my girlfriend whom I support financially. We are living together. She told me she didn't want to get pregnant now either and always recommends me to use condoms or at least not to cum inside, but we still practice unprotected sex at times especially recently.

[AntonySun1996]

It is definitely a possibility. The worst of it is that the USA consulate in the foreign country may help out with the process.

Consulate staff usually do their jobs in a perfunctory manner, but they always have the option of getting enthusiastic about and working overtime on cases that catch their fancy. Imagine some fat ugly feminist stationed overseas in a country where the women are unusually pretty, so that the feminist has absolutely no hope of attracting any male attention whatsoever. Bored, sexually frustrated, seething with rage at American men tourists and expats (whom she thinks of as HER men) ignoring her and screwing local women instead. To fill her abundant spare time, she participates in local feminist consciousness raising events and whatnot, gets to know the local feminists (and there are always of few of these even in places like Ukraine), hears stories about a local woman who an American man impregnated and abandoned.

To get a child support judgement, foreign woman and child will need to show up personally before USA court, but that obstacle can be easily overcome. Our feminist in the consulate can fast-track a tourist visa, then put the woman in touch with her feminist friends in the USA, who offer to pay airfare for mother and child, provide a place for them to stay while in the USA, hire a lawyer to file suit..That's creepy. Lucky that my country's overseas consulate staff care nothing other than spreading commie propaganda LOL.

[AntonySun1996]

Tony, tony, tony, what are we going to do with you? You would get custody of a child only if the woman does not want it. The only exception might be the Arab countries where women do not have any rights.In my country it is very rare that foreign nationals could win custody of a child in the court as far as I know, so I wouldn't really worry if the girl decided to come to China to sue me. Besides, the Chinese judges would often give the custody to the parent with better financial condition to raise the child.

[Stevie69]

Have you been to the border lately? Anyone can just walk in. Sam in Canada, same in Europe.

On a related note, check out Dave Foley's horror story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaC-2lj6HNg).


Anecdotal. I had a Mexican worker with US citizenship a year ago who told me of his child support adventure. His Mexican wife ran off with a rich guy in Mexico and she got a divorce and child support for the daughter. The wife wouldn't let him see his daughter, so he returned to the USA and refused to pay the Mexican child support order. The wife has been trying to collect child support but cannot get a visa to chase him for child support in California. He told her, when you let me see my daughter, then I will pay you the child support, but she refuses. . . A large powerful force protects American men from foreign golddiggers. The US Border Patrol and ICE. If you get a foreign woman US citizenship or green card, then she can easily come to where you live and make your life hell in a US divorce court.

[Stevie69]

Yes; if she is having unprotected sex, she IS trying to get pregnant. You do not have to ejaculate to impregnate a female: sperm and seminal fluid come from different places. Seminal fluid helps, but it is not essential. . The times you "accidentally" end up having sex "au naturel" are the times of her period that she is most fertile.


As per my previous posts I'm not seeing WGs now, I have turned an ex-WG to my girlfriend whom I support financially. We are living together. She told me she didn't want to get pregnant now either and always recommends me to use condoms or at least not to cum inside, but we still practice unprotected sex at times especially recently.

[Stevie69]

My method is to find a good provider, one who gives you want you want and actually seems to enjoy it. You then ask her if she has a friend. She might then immediately show you photos from her phone, or send them to you later. If you like her, she will contact her and tell her that you are a good guy. Anyway, I give the first girl double her usual amount, or maybe a little more, and I have no idea how much she give to the other girl. I would like to think that it is about half.

I think that unless the girls know each other and cooperate, threesomes can be difficult. After the double headed BJ, there is a tendency to work on one girl and then the other one, so essentially, it is like having sex with just one girl at a time. But if they know each other, cooperate, and maybe do a girl on girl, then it is wonderful.


Whenever I have arranged 3-some my standard procedure is to recruit girl #1. Tell her what I want and then either ask her to recruit girl #2 on the spot (if there are other semi-pros around) or recruit girl #2 for the next visit. Maybe promise her a little money extra money on the next hookup as a finders fee. Works flawlessly and allows you to sit back and relax and watch the recruiting as a little extra entertainment before the action.

[Kozerog]

I was never clueless, but emotion used to override reason where women were concerned. I can still remember the facts of my crazy behavior, but not the emotions behind the craziness.

Once suggested marrying a girlfriend as we were walking past the civil marriage office. We had not had sex in months but were still living together because of tight rental situation in San Francisco in late 1990's. She was seeing another guy for sex, I was seeing another woman. My marriage proposal was a follow-up to a fight we had just had: "That'll teach her!" I was running my own business, wealthy with high income and she knew it. I was 38 at the time. Luckily, she decided to teach me a lesson by creating a scene in the marriage office, so that I stormed out.

Just 4 years ago, here in Ukraine, I was still thinking that I should be dating civilians not more than 20 years younger, versus having much younger sugar babies. For whatever reason, I got excited by one of these women in Dnipro (still Dnipropetrovsk then) who I had just met for coffee. Hadn't even kissed her much less had sex with her, had only spoken briefly with her, and already I was making plans about our future together. "I'm a madman in love!" I shouted in bad Russian as she laughed and waved goodbye from the taxi she had summoned to escape me. As soon as she was out of sight, I came to my senses: "What the hell was all that about?

I could go on and on. So many dodged bullets over the years. But I think I'm finally over all that now that I've committed to being a monger henceforth.

As for Antony, the reason she "recommends" condoms, rather than absolutely requiring them, is so she can blame him for the inevitable pregnancy: "I told you over and over to use condoms!"

[ShawMan74]

So I am searching for the maps / links, best areas of town, and driver recommendations but I am not able to find them. Whats the 411? Thanks in advance to all replies. Also, anybody who wants to meet up in kiev, belgrade, or bucharest between July and Sept. , just PM me.

[GDreams]

So I am searching for the maps / links, best areas of town, and driver recommendations but I am not able to find them. Whats the 411? Thanks in advance to all replies. Also, anybody who wants to meet up in kiev, belgrade, or bucharest between July and Sept. , just PM me.I always go around Maidan or Bessarabska Rinok. Keep within 2 streets of Kreshatik. This gives easy access to the metro and the Marshutkas that girls will use to visit. Also easy o walk around to restaurants and sights.

[Bearsi]

Never been to Kiev and thinking about going for December holiday and I've been looking at girls on relaxkiev and Natashaescort websites and I'm seeing decent looking girls for 3600-6000 uah for overnight service and I'm wondering if these sites are trustworthy and are these prices normal for Kiev because they are really low to reasonable to me!

Thanks.

[Visal]

Leaving Kiev today after 34 days trip. All agencies have same girls, they all just share the girls from one agency to another. Operators keep changing 2 to 3 times a day confirmed by PhotoSlider, and each operator is having different contacts. It does not matter if you are a long term old customer as the operators change, addresses change, etc. This is the issue because Sex is not legal here. In Bangkok it is legal, but yea they have different beauty, we cannot compare it here.

They can send you different girl and show different girl in viber. This is common. I sent 2 girls back, keep paying taxi money.

One secret I learnt is that the in house (apartment girls) are different, out house girls are different. Mostly the In house are best girls. Visiting apartment really is best, but if you do not like the stink or the feeling that someone else have banged on this same bed a few minutes ago, then it can be tough. Generally 2100 UAH range girls are always best. They ask extra 1500 for BBBJ but now I think BBBJ should be avoided for the STDs. Anyways, here i come Bangkok.

[MikeFree83]

Leaving Kiev today after 34 days trip. All agencies have same girls, they all just share the girls from one agency to another. Operators keep changing 2 to 3 times a day, and each operator is having different contacts. They can send you different girl and show different girl in viber. This is common. One secret I learnt is that the in house (apartment girls) are different, out house girls are different. Mostly the In house are best girls. Visiting apartment really is best, but if you do not like the stink or the feeling that someone else have banged on this same bed a few minutes ago, then it can be tough. Generally 2100 UAH range girls are always best. They ask extra 1500 for BBBJ but now I think BBBJ should be avoided. Anyways.Hi guys,

Is it possible to meet a girl on the street and offer her love without money?

[Visal]

Hi guys,

Is it possible to meet a girl on the street and offer her love without money?If you have the looks, if you have maintained the body, and if you can speak local language, then it is possible for sure.

[MikeFree83]

If you have the looks, if you have maintained the body, and if you can speak local language, then it is possible for sure.I think I'm cute Where better and easier to find a girl in Kiev? I do not like the services of prostitutes I love real girls, it gives a lot of emotion.

[Sofiy]

Leaving Kiev today after 34 days trip. All agencies have same girls, they all just share the girls from one agency to another. Operators keep changing 2 to 3 times a day confirmed by PhotoSlider, and each operator is having different contacts. It does not matter if you are a long term old customer as the operators change, addresses change, etc. This is the issue because Sex is not legal here. In Bangkok it is legal, but yea they have different beauty, we cannot compare it here.

They can send you different girl and show different girl in viber. This is common. I sent 2 girls back, keep paying taxi money.

One secret I learnt is that the in house (apartment girls) are different, out house girls are different. Mostly the In house are best girls. Visiting apartment really is best, but if you do not like the stink or the feeling that someone else have banged on this same bed a few minutes ago, then it can be tough. Generally 2100 UAH range girls are always best. They ask extra 1500 for BBBJ but now I think BBBJ should be avoided for the STDs. Anyways, here i come Bangkok.Finally, some good information, thanks for the report PhotoSlider!

I actually much prefer going to the apartments as I hate waiting for an hour to two hours for an ugly girl to show up then have to pay for an overpriced taxi for her.

I'm glad to hear there are apartment girls, as when I was there 2 years ago, it was almost all outcall only and after weeks I only found 1 place that had in-call (apartment).

Did you try any of the 1,000 uah - 1,500 uah girls? Were there are decent ones. 25 and under and thin?

Here in Kharkiv, I've found a few places from 900-1,200 uah with beautiful girls in their early 20's and thin. It just took a few weeks but there are quite a few. I've experienced more than 5 of them myself and had a few repeats.

[Member #4722]

I think I'm cute Where better and easier to find a girl in Kiev? I do not like the services of prostitutes I love real girls, it gives a lot of emotion.FOH LOL I think I'm cute. If you don't like hookers you came to the wrong forum!

[DramaFree11]

Finally, some good information, thanks for the report PhotoSlider!

I actually much prefer going to the apartments as I hate waiting for an hour to two hours for an ugly girl to show up then have to pay for an overpriced taxi for her.

I'm glad to hear there are apartment girls, as when I was there 2 years ago, it was almost all outcall only and after weeks I only found 1 place that had in-call (apartment).

Did you try any of the 1,000 uah - 1,500 uah girls? Were there are decent ones. 25 and under and thin?

Here in Kharkiv, I've found a few places from 900-1,200 uah with beautiful girls in their early 20's and thin. It just took a few weeks but there are quite a few. I've experienced more than 5 of them myself and had a few repeats.I had trouble even finding any decent girls at the $100 mark at the apartments. $40-60, I can only imagine how bad that is. When I was there it was very hard to find decent girls at all at the apartments. I am talking 5's and below. Apartments and nightclubs use to be my approach, but both had a serious decline in quality girls.

[DramaFree11]

I think I'm cute Where better and easier to find a girl in Kiev? I do not like the services of prostitutes I love real girls, it gives a lot of emotion.Honestly, this is the best approach to find decent girls in Kiev, but be prepared it will take a lot of time, effort, money and work. Also you need to be able to speak the language and stay away from K. Street.

Easier just too pay.

[ShawMan74]

I think I'm cute Where better and easier to find a girl in Kiev? I do not like the services of prostitutes I love real girls, it gives a lot of emotion.In a word, try Tinder.

[HappyMimiore]

Finally, some good information, thanks for the report PhotoSlider!

I actually much prefer going to the apartments as I hate waiting for an hour to two hours for an ugly girl to show up then have to pay for an overpriced taxi for her.

I'm glad to hear there are apartment girls, as when I was there 2 years ago, it was almost all outcall only and after weeks I only found 1 place that had in-call (apartment).

Did you try any of the 1,000 uah - 1,500 uah girls? Were there are decent ones. 25 and under and thin?

Here in Kharkiv, I've found a few places from 900-1,200 uah with beautiful girls in their early 20's and thin. It just took a few weeks but there are quite a few. I've experienced more than 5 of them myself and had a few repeats.Sir,

How did you get the agent phone No of the apartments? From relaxkiev phone No? Mambar? Tinder?

How you compare the girl's quality between Kharkiv and Kiev.

[Cunning Stunt]

Myro is one half of a pair of identical twins and apparently actually works with her sister. Unfortunately the sister wasn't around when I was in town or I'd have scored the bucket list holy grail. Would have probably killed me but I would have died with a huge smile on my face.

Has anyone come across Myro or her sister as if they are and still work together, it would be worth the airfare to Kiev just for this unique experience. Plus also Myro was an absolute darling and gave me the best $50 shags that I enjoyed during my Kiev trip.

[Goldman1313]

Leaving Kiev today after 34 days trip. All agencies have same girls, they all just share the girls from one agency to another. Operators keep changing 2 to 3 times a day confirmed by PhotoSlider, and each operator is having different contacts. It does not matter if you are a long term old customer as the operators change, addresses change, etc. This is the issue because Sex is not legal here. In Bangkok it is legal, but yea they have different beauty, we cannot compare it here.

They can send you different girl and show different girl in viber. This is common. I sent 2 girls back, keep paying taxi money.

One secret I learnt is that the in house (apartment girls) are different, out house girls are different. Mostly the In house are best girls. Visiting apartment really is best, but if you do not like the stink or the feeling that someone else have banged on this same bed a few minutes ago, then it can be tough. Generally 2100 UAH range girls are always best. They ask extra 1500 for BBBJ but now I think BBBJ should be avoided for the STDs. Anyways, here i come Bangkok.Hi,

Would you mind terribly much telling me how to find these girls in apartments. What do you look for exactly in order to locate them. I have not been to Kiev nor do I speak the language.

Thanks MG.

[Muddy7]

Met a girl, she said she used to work in apts, gave me the phone number of a guy named Alex.

Contacted the guy on telegram, sent me some photos, but the faces were blurred, the prices he wrote me were in dollar not grivna, $150 and $250.

Offered to take me to some of these apts in the center.

Since I couldn't see the faces of girls in photos I passed, said he doesn't have photos that shows their faces.

[Jojosun]

Hi guys,

Is it possible to meet a girl on the street and offer her love without money?Your love won't pay her Bills.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3_iQZiVD_zA

[ThaiMat85]

Hi guys,

I'm going to Ukraine for the first time on July. I'll spend just 1 week in Kiev so I want to avoid mistakes.

Can you recommend me some:

1. online sites with real escorts? There are many websites of escorts in Kiev but they seem to put fake pics (pics of models or pornstars) - I'm looking for a site with real girls. If there is any of course LOL.

2. strip clubs. What's the best? Is it safe there (in Poland I was poisoned twice in the strip club! Can I take a girl to my hotel?

3. where can I find good quality escorts??

4. any good clubs / discos where I can find freelancers or regular girl for action in my hotel? .

I would appreciate any advises of you guys. It's my first time there and I have no idea what to expect.

Cheers.

[LivingFossil]

Hmmm, I was considering Kiev but from all I ve been reading and it doesn't seem like the best place.

I think I know the answer but Ill ask you experts.

If I am looking for white / European woman, what country is best as in ease of access to a foreigner and beauty for the money?

I know, the question is very broad but use your own definition of beauty.

[Muddy7]

Hmmm, I was considering Kiev but from all I ve been reading and it doesn't seem like the best place.

I think I know the answer but Ill ask you experts.

If I am looking for white / European woman, what country is best as in ease of access to a foreigner and beauty for the money?

I know, the question is very broad but use your own definition of beauty.Yea, its not the best place any more, its easy for good looking girls to leave UA now and work in western Europe.

[LivingFossil]

Yea, its not the best place any more, its easy for good looking girls to leave UA now and work in western Europe.I have been to Poland which had tons of hot girls but, I didn't look or know about a good mongering scene.

[Claro Que Si]

Hi all!

Do you know which hotels (including small "apart-hotels") are OK with bringing girls in the room?

I don't want to pay the receptionist every time to let the girl pass. And I don't want any strange looks and especially questions or comments. I want to be completely left alone by any and all of the hotel staff. Are there such places in Kyiv?

Thank you.

[AntonySun1996]

Hi all!

Do you know which hotels (including small "apart-hotels") are OK with bringing girls in the room?

I don't want to pay the receptionist every time to let the girl pass. And I don't want any strange looks and especially questions or comments. I want to be completely left alone by any and all of the hotel staff. Are there such places in Kyiv?

Thank you.Rent an AirBnb apartment. Reasonable prices, comfort, no receptionists, no shame-walk.

[Misterxxx]

Hi all!

Do you know which hotels (including small "apart-hotels") are OK with bringing girls in the room?

I don't want to pay the receptionist every time to let the girl pass. And I don't want any strange looks and especially questions or comments. I want to be completely left alone by any and all of the hotel staff. Are there such places in Kyiv?

Thank you.Rent an apartment. And you do not have to worry about it.

Dobovo, PartnerGuestHouse, booking.com .

If you show up with a girl, most hotels do not care. The reception will not ask for a passport or money. If you have ever changing guests, the reception in every hotel will speak to you. Especially if you book a single room.

[Queber331]

Earlier posts mention KEC as the more reliable site.

What's the deal with the girls with discounted rates?

Is there a catch?

Time of the month?

Thanks.

[Claro Que Si]

Thanks.

Last year I rented one of the largest and most luxurious rooms in Kyiv, if not in Europe! It's the so called "apart-hotel", it's just a few large rooms on top floors of the very nice building in the very heart of the city. It was for 2 persons. I came alone, of course. And they charged me 500 UAH every time I brought a girl in the evening. I was so pissed, I explained to them that I payed for 2 persons, but I had to pay nevertheless for each and every girl, every day. It's my favourite place in Kiev but because of the worst host that you can imagine I will never go back there.

Then I tried Hotel Ukraina. The room was nice, but it can't compare with my previous accommodation which was really something extraordinary. Instead of 500 UAH + negative vibe / looks / comments, in Hotel Ukraina I had to pay "only" 200 UAH for every girl.

For my third visit I don't want to pay a dime to no-one except to the girls!

The problem with the apartments is this: either they are at amazing locations but they are shitty, or they look amazingly fabulous but they are on shitty locations, miles from the city center, usually in the southern outskirts, in the horrible huge buildings. If there's an apartment who has both. Amazing interior and amazing location, it's either way too expensive or always already taken.

So my new question to you who have lots of experience with Kyiv: what is better (from the girls' perspective) - to have an amazing place in shitty location or to have a shitty place in amazing location?

I feel that this is an important question and I didn't see it being discussed here.

Thank you.

[Michi T]

So my new question to you who have lots of experience with Kyiv: what is better (from the girls' perspective) - to have an amazing place in shitty location or to have a shitty place in amazing location?

I feel that this is an important question and I didn't see it being discussed here.

Thank you.What is the issue? Take a nice hotel at a nice location, and you won't have such problems. For example, from my experience: Radisson City, Radisson Podil, aLoft, Hyatt, Hilton, Intercontinental.

[ShawMan74]

Hmmm, I was considering Kiev but from all I ve been reading and it doesn't seem like the best place.

I think I know the answer but Ill ask you experts.

If I am looking for white / European woman, what country is best as in ease of access to a foreigner and beauty for the money?

I know, the question is very broad but use your own definition of beauty.From what I can tell its going to be probably be the well established red light district cities because there seems to be a trend of hyper-centralization. But it still won't be easy because the working girls are majority non-white.

[ShawMan74]

So my new question to you who have lots of experience with Kyiv: what is better (from the girls' perspective) - to have an amazing place in shitty location or to have a shitty place in amazing location?If you are courting a girl then they seem to like it when you have an amazing place in a shitty location (within reason). If you are trying to meet as many girls as possible then it behooves you be in a great location even if it means a shitty place (again, within reason).

[GDreams]

Thanks.

The problem with the apartments is this: either they are at amazing locations but they are shitty, or they look amazingly fabulous but they are on shitty locations, miles from the city center, usually in the southern outskirts, in the horrible huge buildings. If there's an apartment who has both. Amazing interior and amazing location, it's either way too expensive or always already taken.

So my new question to you who have lots of experience with Kyiv: what is better (from the girls' perspective) - to have an amazing place in shitty location or to have a shitty place in amazing location?

I feel that this is an important question and I didn't see it being discussed here.

Thank you.Its been a while since I stayed in Kiev but there are no shortage of nice apartments in the centre of the city. I never stayed in a hotel apart from my honeymoon night. I stayed on Mala Zhitymyrskaya, Michaelovska, Shota Rustavelli, Pushkinska, Taras Shevchenko, Kreshatik, Baesina, Klugo universitets, Desisitinya and had lots of nice apartments even if the buildings were crappy. All centrally located so easy for girls to come via metro or Marshutka.

[PhotoSlider]

Thanks.

Last year I rented one of the largest and most luxurious rooms in Kyiv, if not in Europe! It's the so called "apart-hotel", it's just a few large rooms on top floors of the very nice building in the very heart of the city. It was for 2 persons. I came alone, of course. And they charged me 500 UAH every time I brought a girl in the evening. I was so pissed, I explained to them that I payed for 2 persons, but I had to pay nevertheless for each and every girl, every day. It's my favourite place in Kiev but because of the worst host that you can imagine I will never go back there.

Then I tried Hotel Ukraina. The room was nice, but it can't compare with my previous accommodation which was really something extraordinary. Instead of 500 UAH + negative vibe / looks / comments, in Hotel Ukraina I had to pay "only" 200 UAH for every girl..Wrong question, because the choice is between two shitty options.

Why not rent a decent AirBnB downtown? For mere 45-50 USD a night you can have a great apartment managed by SuperHost and a slew of girls, too many to chose from, while nobody charges you for bringing them over.

I stayed literally next to the embassy of the leading European country, no police, but there was their security around the clock, and my girls arriving to the curbside at regular intervals for casting. Nobody said nothing!

I did stay on the outskirts of the City in the past. It makes the choice of call girls more limited, and sifting through them takes longer due to logistics.

[TeFab456]

If you are courting a girl then they seem to like it when you have an amazing place in a shitty location (within reason). If you are trying to meet as many girls as possible then it behooves you be in a great location even if it means a shitty place (again, within reason).This discussion is futile as there are plenty of nice and affordable apartments in the center, between Bessarabskaya and Maidan. All the big websites for accomodation give ample selection. Personally I had some nice places at Plosha Tolstoya, which is around the corner of Kreshchatyk. I also had apartments in Mala Zhytomirska and Mikhailovska, and some of my best meetings I had in a tiny apartment overlooking Maidan Square, which turned out to be not exactly luxurious but was cool for the girls regardless.

If you have a doorman, you may get some looks bringing in girl after girl, but no need to bother.

Rates should be around 50 $ per night.

[Guntherus]

Maybe we should compare pricing. Rent varies according to season. Location Kreshatik, separate bedroom, balcony street view. 40 $ in winter, 60 $ in summer. Earlier, I've had broken beds, shaky electricity, cold shower, empty kitchen etc etc. Now I only speak to a trusted landlord who can meet my standards. The most shitty detail is the entrance / elevator, which is hard to fix. And maybe his price is too high?

[PhotoSlider]

Always thought that two fingers V meant "Victory". Sometimes - "Peace".

During this visit to Kiev Ukrainian girls gave it a new meaning:

- You are such a talented man!

- Really? I am honored. How many times did you come?

And she shows a two-finger "Victory" sign. Meaning she came twice.

[PhotoSlider]

One wise man from California taught me the best way to enjoy hot women in Kiev without paying much at all.

Forget all those Shooters, Chis, Rios and Arenas. Go to Pizzeria place in Podol, get yourself a beer or even a glass of water, sit outside at the table in the street, and watch beautiful young ladies passing by. I can keep doing this for hours.

And likewise, do not use taxi for transport. Take metro / subway. Especially now in the Summer. Hot hot hot! Eye candy is endless and never boring.

[TinyHippo]

Earlier posts mention KEC as the more reliable site.

What's the deal with the girls with discounted rates?

Is there a catch?

Time of the month?

Thanks.They are just girls that are not popular. KEC is OK, but keep in mind they do not meet most of the girls. So, they say they are 2-4 years younger than they really are. Often the photos are old. Just like their "Girl of the week". I met her a few months ago and had to send her home. She was literally 10 kg more than her sexy skinny photos and was a drunken mess. I told management and they did not reply. I think for their prices (often $200-250 just for one hour now), it should be the very last resort. I have never been to Rio, but at least you can see the girls and check out their personality before you pay them.

[PhotoSlider]

For those heading to Kiev now: my impression after recent departure that after student girls have finished classes and exams, talent at the agencies and apartments became limited. Bait and switch is rampant. Also there is a level of isolation between Viber / WhatsApp remote dispatches like I wait. Biz, and mama-sans managing the girls on premises.

Arriving in May, as promised I had reappearing 9's one after another, thinking that I died and went straight to heaven. Then gradually the agency well has dried out. Especially because I try not to repeat.

Seems that during summer Mamba, street hunting and relying on regular contacts established during prior visits is the way to go.

For the last week before the departure I alternated two trusted girls long-term (2-3 days at a time for 2-3 K UAH a day). Both of them previously worked shortly for an agency about a year ago, and quit. Nothing could be better. Young, sincere, they suffered enough and do not want to return back to work. Love making at its finest, ever so thankful.

Those asking me to share, please read what Kozerog wrote here repeatedly about finding his Jewel.

Also imagine that on average I go through 15-20 or so girls to get a keeper. Each one is 1500-2100 UAH. That makes it no less than 22500 UAH to find one. That is roughly USD850, or 2-3 visits to KEC / GIA, where my USD investment was more, and retention rate was about the same or even better (converted and kept 4 girls out of 10-12), but much higher maintenance fees after turning those girls into my GFs.

Anyway, I surely enjoyed the casting process, and while some of the girls do not give me their phone number, despite obviously entertaining themselves as well, others did, but weren't contacted this visit for various reasons (MILFs, nervous, demanding too much attention and / or money).

These two "last-week girls" are in my top 4 at the moment. Their English is not so good. Love making though is out of this world, with BBBJ, 69, and I decided not to push for Greek.

As I said, I pay each of them between 2000 and 4000 UAH per 24 hours, plus food (Puzata Hata or Avalon. My choice) and entertainment, and have none of that nonsense when the agency dispatcher calls in the middle of us both having an orgasm, to ask if the taxi should be ordered. I also woke them up at 5 or 6 am when the case of the morning wood happened, and first thing I saw was a smile, even before opening their eyes.

So, investing about a grand into finding each one of these, why should I give them away to the Forum community? You can do the same search, but usually not during 3-5 days visit, and chances are lower if you do not speak local language. Russian or Ukrainian. I do exchange with trusted and respected Forum members, and few of them helped me tremendously. Please allow me time to recuperate.

I do not consider that USD 1 K research funds were wasted, as many of those hourly girls were outstanding. So it would be difficult to calculate hourly rate or a cost per intercourse for these two "last-week" keepers.

I kicked out 2 girls from my bed again this visit, sent back 2-3 deliveries by taxi, and had maybe 5-7 average girls. I lost my own personal count at 25 individual girls about 7-10 days in. But funny thing, by chance I met separately the young hourly lady, that looked familiar, and she confessed that last fall, being me stupid or tired or something, I rudely evicted her, because she was hurting and evasive during the intercourse. This time though, courageous and persistent, she delivered at the highest level to prove her point. I apologized, and she departed with all the dignity and newly gained respect.

So, hopefully this rant is marginally useful for some of you to eliminate illusions about scoring in Kiev. It is certainly doable, it is definitely not cheap, and in my surely not so humble opinion, there is no other place like Kiev for me personally. Your mileage will vary.

[Trent23]

OK, gents! I am going to Kiew in July and I am a bit frustrated with the following: I scanned and then contacted a few girls on Mamba. I have first chatted (all looking for sponsors) them up, got their numbers. One already stated the price and service, 3 others I write to here and there on Viber and they don't reply?

Ah, 2 of them clicked my foto that they like me and stuff. I don't get what their "problem" is? Lingo can't be as they responded in English on Viber? I do have the feeling that the agency runs these accounts and also their phones and never answer due to that they don't want to chat ordinary stuff? But can I jump in.

And say: Oi, meet me x7. 19 at my apartment, What is the cost of your service, an I? Do you negotiate everything in detail beforehand? Like facesitting, 69, poses, etc.

I mongered only in Budapest so far and it was just great!

Though a few years ago I had a girl over from Kiew that I have chatted up and she stayed with me for 4 weeks. I was planning on seeing where it takes us if falling in love and staying together works out. 2 friends are married to Ukrainian girls and it looked like an option for me. The prob for me was that the jealousy killed it!

She requested that I delete all girls numbers from my phone, no matter if it was my sister, boss or doctor? Haha! Crazy! I shit you not! Very quickly it was obvious that she was only in for the passport. Rim-jobbed the first night?! Cooked pelmeni in fishnet dress when I came home from work and the like. Yeah, cool when you think about it but a turnoff, when a girl is all like the flan in the face?! Sent her home, though the "action" was outstanding!

Further, I checked http://kiev.ukrgo.com which is also annoying: I wrote 3-4 girls messages in Russian and haven't heard back? The numbers stated there. Are they for real? I mean I can call them once I am in Kiew and see what nuggets I can dig. Anyone of you guys had experiences with 3 some?

I mean, I'd like to have one but I don't want it to be a shitty and awkward lesbo show. If they don't go at each other 100% it would be a turn-off for me. I would like to define the session in detail so that I know what I am getting. Might not really work, eh?

[PhotoSlider]

OK, gents! I am going to Kiew in July and I am a bit frustrated with the following: I scanned and then contacted a few girls on Mamba. I have first chatted (all looking for sponsors) them up, got their numbers. One already stated the price and service, 3 others I write to here and there on Viber and they don't reply?...Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems girls (or agency communication handlers) detect you are not in Kiev yet, and they don't have time for a friendly chit-chat, it's all business, dude!

[DramaFree11]

OK, gents! I am going to Kiew in July and I am a bit frustrated with the following: I scanned and then contacted a few girls on Mamba. I have first chatted (all looking for sponsors) them up, got their numbers. One already stated the price and service, 3 others I write to here and there on Viber and they don't reply?

Ah, 2 of them clicked my foto that they like me and stuff. I don't get what their "problem" is? Lingo can't be as they responded in English on Viber? I do have the feeling that the agency runs these accounts and also their phones and never answer due to that they don't want to chat ordinary stuff? But can I jump in.

And say: Oi, meet me x7. 19 at my apartment, What is the cost of your service, an I? Do you negotiate everything in detail beforehand? Like facesitting, 69, poses, etc.

I mongered only in Budapest so far and it was just great!.None of this should be a big surprise, go back and read previous posts. Dealing with on-line profiles in Kiev is Crapshoot at best. Once you arrive you will have a better chance, but you may want to read previous post about traveling to Kiev in July. Not the best time at all.

[Muddy7]

What's the link for kec?

[Stevie69]

Thank you! That is the real beauty of Kiev. You step out of your building into the street and immediately you see a gorgeous woman in a nice dress and high heels, and then there is another one 15 seconds later, and so on for the entire day. In the summer, the dresses get semi-transparent. I wonder how men get anything done in the office?

In Toronto, I could wait hours before I could see an elegant, sexy and feminine woman.

Yes, that pizza place is great! Solo is great, but with company too. I once took a date there, and she got so jealous of the talent that she did what she could to keep my attention as soon as we got back to my apartment.


One wise man from California taught me the best way to enjoy hot women in Kiev without paying much at all.

Forget all those Shooters, Chis, Rios and Arenas. Go to Pizzeria place in Podol, get yourself a beer or even a glass of water, sit outside at the table in the street, and watch beautiful young ladies passing by. I can keep doing this for hours.

And likewise, do not use taxi for transport. Take metro / subway. Especially now in the Summer. Hot hot hot! Eye candy is endless and never boring.

[PhotoSlider]

...As I said, I pay each of them between 2000 and 4000 UAH per 24 hours, plus food (Puzata Hata or Avalon. My choice) and entertainment...Now respectfully trying to compare myself to Antony:

Just like him, I didn't factor in rent or airfare.

$5000 per month to a single girl is $167/ day, which is about 4400 UAH.

My case seems not that much different money-wise.

Except at the mere hint of showing the attitude, the perpetrating girl would have been swiftly set on course to her residence in the remote town few hours away from the Ukrainian Capital. In fact due to schedule conflict I did ask one of them to leave over the weekend, she visibly didn't like it, but didn't object or asked too many questions, and returned Monday all shining and beautiful, ready to continue.

During my dual monogamy, - perhaps I should call it bigamy, I also met 4 or 5 other beauties, but only socially, without physical cheating.

In 5 weeks I didn't visit any dance clubs, strip joints, or pickup places. Went to an apartment once, because from my balcony I could see theirs one floor down. Girls were terrible, except for one large woman with a great smile, so that on my way out, I turned back, said "Fuck it!" and took her with me. That adventure was interesting. I slapped her ass till it was all pink, while portraying myself as Jacques-Yves Cousteau swimming deep down in the ocean with whales her screams and moans added to the picture.

[Misterxxx]

OK, gents! I am going to Kiew in July and I am a bit frustrated with the following: I scanned and then contacted a few girls on Mamba. I have first chatted (all looking for sponsors) them up, got their numbers. One already stated the price and service, 3 others I write to here and there on Viber and they don't reply?

Ah, 2 of them clicked my foto that they like me and stuff. I don't get what their "problem" is? Lingo can't be as they responded in English on Viber? I do have the feeling that the agency runs these accounts and also their phones and never answer due to that they don't want to chat ordinary stuff? But can I jump in.The women are bombarded by messages. 100+ a day are normal. That dulls off. Many men only collect phone numbers. For a later stay in the Kiev. Many men never come and never call. Therefore, almost all women ask, "Are you in Kiev?" If you are not in Kiev the interest decreases significantly. The agencies do not think about the business in a month. Then the phone number may have changed. The semi-professionals need money now. At this moment. In a month maybe you have a real boyfriend. Therefore, the interest is also low.

As for the service of women: better not clarify in detail. Many things will be free for you. Without asking before. If you ask too much you will get a prize for every little thing.

[AntonySun1996]

For those heading to Kiev now: my impression after recent departure that after student girls have finished classes and exams, talent at the agencies and apartments became limited. Bait and switch is rampant. Also there is a level of isolation between Viber / WhatsApp remote dispatches like I wait. Biz, and mama-sans managing the girls on premises.

Arriving in May, as promised I had reappearing 9's one after another, thinking that I died and went straight to heaven. Then gradually the agency well has dried out. Especially because I try not to repeat.

Seems that during summer Mamba, street hunting and relying on regular contacts established during prior visits is the way to go.

For the last week before the departure I alternated two trusted girls long-term (2-3 days at a time for 2-3 K UAH a day). Both of them previously worked shortly for an agency about a year ago, and quit. Nothing could be better...Excellent report as always. And yes, Kiev is cute at this time of the year. For me the best place for eye candies is McDonalds, where there are many hot girls. There is a redhead worker at the McDonalds near Poznyaki metro station who makes me unable to control me boner every time I visit there. If anyone by any chance has her number please tell me.

[AntonySun1996]

After having a fight with my girlfriend, I decided to treat myself with a working girl. I scrolled through the profiles on relaxkiev site, got several agency numbers, wrote them on viber and they sent me photos of the girls. None of them was attractive to me. So I went back to the site again and a profile with "negotiable" prices caught my eye and I decided to have a shot, as negotiable prices usually mean higher qualities. I wrote the number on viber and it turned out that it was a agency with quite a few girls available. Judging from the photos they sent me, the quality of the girls was indeed significantly higher than other agencies. A cute blonde girl named Katya who was claimed to be 18 years old seemed to be my type of girl and I chose her. Price was 2400 uah per hour and we agreed on 4000 for two hours. She only does outcalls, and since I didn't want she to come to my apartment, I booked a hotel room in Premier Hotel Rus near Gulliver shopping centre and waited her on the ground floor.

She arrived a few minuted before the agreed time. Had no problems with security guys or reception. It was somehow hard for me to tell if she was the girl in the photo. The girl standing in front of me was a brunette instead of a blonde as in the photo, but her facial appearances were quite similar to the girl in the photo, though not exactly the same (I have difficulty in recognizing people). She looks very similar to younger Sophie Marceau. It was a little disappointment for me as you know I prefer blondes, also she was skinnier than expected, and I'm not quite into skinny girls.

Despite this, she is a cute a girl, so I decided to take her to my room instead of sending her away. Her English was good. Attitude and performance were quite pleasing. She told me she was going to fly to Egypt on the next day and will come back in one week. The actual sex only lasted for about 1 h15 min, and I couldn't maintain the boner after that even with the help of the little blue helper, due in part to the stress I was experiencing that day. I told her that I was tired and couldn't continue, and that she could go if she wished, but she told me it's okay and she would leave when I leave. We chatted for a while for about twenty minutes before I got tired and had to politely tell her that she was dismissed. It was midnight already and I terribly wanted to sleep so I decided to spend the night in the hotel rather than go back home.

Commenting remarks. A cute girl but not exactly sexy by my standards. Generally satisfied but will not repeat. However, our tastes differ. If you are into skinny brunettes, feel free to pm me for contact (only senior members please), in exchange for contact of pretty young curvy blondes preferably with pale complexion.

[PhotoSlider]

After having a fight with my girlfriend, I decided to treat myself with a working girl...Very good, - step in the right direction, Antony!

Next one is not so easy, but still doable.

Give 1000 UAH to your not so exclusive anymore GF, send her away shopping at Ocean Plaza. While she is busy for few hours, - change the lock on the door, keeping it all legal. Move all her stiletto shoes and Michael Kors purses to a cheaper storage, and give her the key through the independent taxi driver, who doesn't give a shit.

Or even better. Just terminate the rent, and move out yourself. Let landlord handle her stuff.

Avoid the conflict, keep it civilized from your end. And do not stop seeing other girls, at least 2 or 3 every 24 hours. Always helped me. There was an attempt to abuse me exactly a week ago last Tuesday. Except I had a reliable young lady patiently waiting at my apartment. Took less than 12 hours, with love making sessions around midnight and another one in the morning, to get back to normal.

Please forgive my candor, Antony. You know that I respect you, even after certain mistakes.

The above eviction is overdue.

[Stevie69]

Thank you! At least you are not overpaying (too much) any more. I bet you could have brought her down to 2000 UAH per hour.

I was there for just 4 days in early June. I only had time to see one of my regulars twice (she bought a friend the second time, who is now in her independent rotation for next time) and two new finds. The two new girls were very nice, and only 19, and will likely see one of them again. One of them seemed to me too much of a professional. At the start, it was weird to see someone so young being so comfortable undressing and being naked in front of a complete stranger. I will return in July, and a more comprehensive analysis will follow.

Back to prices. It seems to me that most girls are quite happy with 1500 UAH. I pay 2000 UAH only on two cases (1) when they offer additional services, like anal (I do not really care for it so much, but I figure if the girls want more money, they should earn it somehow), and (2) when they offer the fantasy girl package. That means they are not only beautiful (they all are!) but they also have the model aura, the nice dress, high heels, etc. Of course, whereas the former indicates that they are open to all types of sex, the latter is no guarantee of good sex. Only in some extreme scenarios, I might be persuaded to approach 2500 UAH.

One more thought, during my threesome, with anal included, my regular girl (who is a bank teller), had not told her friend (who is a teacher) how much they were getting. I made a point of splitting the money in front of them and paying them separately. She was happily surprised. She jumped at me and gave me a kiss and a hug. Clearly, she was expecting a lot less. Maybe my regular girl should have gotten a finder's fee, but that is up to them to sort out.

If they are vacationing in Egypt, we are paying them too much. I do not vacation in Egypt!


After having a fight with my girlfriend, I decided to treat myself with a working girl. I scrolled through the profiles on relaxkiev site, got several agency numbers, wrote them on viber and they sent me photos of the girls. None of them was attractive to me. So I went back to the site again and a profile with "negotiable" prices caught my eye and I decided to have a shot, as negotiable prices usually mean higher qualities. I wrote the number on viber and it turned out that it was a agency with quite a few girls available. Judging from the photos they sent me, the quality of the girls was indeed significantly higher than other agencies. A cute blonde girl named Katya who was claimed to be 18 years old seemed to be my type of girl and I chose her. Price was 2400 uah per hour and we agreed on 4000 for two hours. She only does outcalls, and since I didn't want she to come to my apartment, I booked a hotel room in Premier Hotel Rus near Gulliver shopping centre and waited her on the ground floor..

[ShawMan74]

Hey guys. So I need some advice. This trip is coming up very fast (July 16th) and its caught me off guard. I'm going to be there for 2 full months but I haven't found a place to stay yet. I'm looking at airbnb and homeaway but the prices seem to be shifting around a lot on the same listings. And they are exorbitant. Also, nobody wants to lease for as long as I want to stay. This has left me feeling discouraged. I don't even know if I might be in a jam with the airline yet for baggage fees. Is this city one big brutal tourist trap? Is this place really worth it, or am I better off cancelling?

[GDreams]

Hey guys. So I need some advice. This trip is coming up very fast (July 16th) and its caught me off guard. I'm going to be there for 2 full months but I haven't found a place to stay yet. I'm looking at airbnb and homeaway but the prices seem to be shifting around a lot on the same listings. And they are exorbitant. Also, nobody wants to lease for as long as I want to stay. This has left me feeling discouraged. I don't even know if I might be in a jam with the airline yet for baggage fees. Is this city one big brutal tourist trap? Is this place really worth it, or am I better off cancelling?Just google apartment to rent in Kiev. There are many providers. I used to use apartments but also tried others and was happy with the service. Don't stray far from Kreshatik.

[Kozerog]

Hey guys. So I need some advice. This trip is coming up very fast (July 16th) and its caught me off guard. I'm going to be there for 2 full months but I haven't found a place to stay yet. I'm looking at airbnb and homeaway but the prices seem to be shifting around a lot on the same listings. And they are exorbitant. Also, nobody wants to lease for as long as I want to stay. This has left me feeling discouraged. I don't even know if I might be in a jam with the airline yet for baggage fees. Is this city one big brutal tourist trap? Is this place really worth it, or am I better off cancelling?I just did a search on AirBnb for July 26-31 for entire apartments for $20-$50/ night. Tons of places. If you are a beginner, better to only book at most two weeks in advance (one week better), since place might be a disaster. Moving every week no big deal if you pack light. Worst comes to worst, you have to spend one night sitting in a park bench because some place screws up your reservation and you can't find a hotel. It's summer and mild temps. Sitting outside no problem. Try you get an apartment walking distance from center of city if you are a beginner.

Most important thing is to have spare ATM cards (I have 5 bank accounts myself), plenty of crisp foreign currency ($ or euro) in case all the ATM cards break, spare smartphone in case primary breaks. You can always buy new phones for under $200, but limited English abilities with salespeople.

[TinyHippo]

Hey guys. So I need some advice. This trip is coming up very fast (July 16th) and its caught me off guard. I'm going to be there for 2 full months but I haven't found a place to stay yet. I'm looking at airbnb and homeaway but the prices seem to be shifting around a lot on the same listings. And they are exorbitant. Also, nobody wants to lease for as long as I want to stay. This has left me feeling discouraged. I don't even know if I might be in a jam with the airline yet for baggage fees. Is this city one big brutal tourist trap? Is this place really worth it, or am I better off cancelling?Two months is a long time. They are probably scared you will cancel and then their summer bookings are ruined. If you are in full mongering mode, why stay in the same place for two months?

Split it up and you can meet girls in different areas and if you happen to put your dick in crazy. She will not be able to find your new place.

[Kozerog]

July 16-26, I meant. Too late to edit.

[PhotoSlider]

Couple weeks ago I ran into two Italian men riding down an elevator from Avalon Terrace together. PM me if you were one of them please.

They complained about the place, perhaps trying to pick up girls there, which is a known fact that Avalon isn't for pickup.

I go there for food and good time with friends or my own ladies, as well as business meetings.

So I praised the property, and one of guys switched to Italian swearing and cursing, without realizing that I understand enough because one of my younger ladies speaks fluent Italian, so being a curious type, I learnt the language a little. I objected to his cursing, and he switched back to English, boldly stating:

- We'll come and take away all of your girls!

I smiled and responded:

- I am American. Go ahead, and good luck trying!

Maybe I am mistaken in the above assumptions. They both looked great, and apparently nobody paid sufficient attention at Avalon.

Action is elsewhere, and many foreigners succeed year in and year out. Streets, Mamba, certain sites similar to Mamba that do not provide hourly girls but rather target upper scale gentlemen for longer term engagements, exclusive Viber semi-pro agencies, etc.

Anyway, that was an amusing incident.

[Trent23]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems girls (or agency communication handlers) detect you are not in Kiev yet, and they don't have time for a friendly chit-chat, it's all business, dude!OK, but I am a bit hesitating: when a girl is looking for sponsors, is it that I can just cut through the bollocks of chit-chat and ask can we meet? What's your service and what do you charge?

I am happy to do so, but dunno if I put them off?

[Arkiloko]

Hey guys. So I need some advice. This trip is coming up very fast (July 16th) and its caught me off guard. I'm going to be there for 2 full months but I haven't found a place to stay yet. I'm looking at airbnb and homeaway but the prices seem to be shifting around a lot on the same listings. And they are exorbitant. Also, nobody wants to lease for as long as I want to stay. This has left me feeling discouraged. I don't even know if I might be in a jam with the airline yet for baggage fees. Is this city one big brutal tourist trap? Is this place really worth it, or am I better off cancelling?To find apartment in Kiev I use dobovo.com, as airbnb but only ukrainian. I think it's better than international service.

Hope this post doesn't violate tos, just wanted to help))).

[ShawMan74]

Solid advice from everybody, I really needed that. I am totally recharged about this, and you guys have done good karma in helping someone not lose out on what promises to be a better experience than suffering the summer shutdown in triple digit heat.

And so this post brought up a great question:



Action is elsewhere, and many foreigners succeed year in and year out. Streets, Mamba, certain sites similar to Mamba that do not provide hourly girls but rather target upper scale gentlemen for longer term engagements, exclusive Viber semi-pro agencies, etc.What can yall suggest in way of finding an STR or LTR? I think that's really what I'm in the market for. I'll be there long enough. My adventures are really an escape from celibacy more than just the heat. The usa is really awful from the standpoint of social well-being. And as always, much thanks in advance to all who reply!!

[Arkiloko]

Couple weeks ago I ran into two Italian men riding down an elevator from Avalon Terrace together. Italian tourists are really bad. Not the worst in the world, but so coarse. I'm italian but often, when I'm alone traveling, don't speak italian so they don't mess with me.

Once in Egypt I spoke russian all the morning waiting late flight in airport because of them))).

[Lucky Nuts]

Hi guys I'm new to the Kiev discussion as I'm researching for my upcoming hobby trip to Europe. That relaxkiev website has pretty amazing looking girls at fair prices. Actually looks too good to be true so I'm guessing that's the case. Or please tell me these model looking girls actually show up at your door. I read that many pics are photoshopped but are they even close? Are websites like relalxkiev the primary source of meeting ladies in Kiev? Or is there a club scene where girls visit hoping to meet up with guys like us? One last question if anyone has also visited either Frankfurt or Barcelona how does it compare / contrast with the game in Kiev? Would very much appreciate any general info can be provided on the European scene as I'm not sure yet where to visit.

[Stevie69]

They are sociable to the extreme. They are the only ones who go to *****houses with a group of friends, often with family members. I once met a group at a German FKK that included a guy, , his cousin and his nephew. Also at nightclubs, they hunt as a group. They identify the target, and one guy approaches and engages while the others surround her to prevent her escape, or run interference with the girl's friends. It is fascinating to watch.


Italian tourists are really bad. Not the worst in the world, but so coarse. I'm italian but often, when I'm alone traveling, don't speak italian so they don't mess with me.

Once in Egypt I spoke russian all the morning waiting late flight in airport because of them.

[Stevie69]

No, the photos are usually fake. Please read the forum. There is plenty of information here.


Hi guys I'm new to the Kiev discussion as I'm researching for my upcoming hobby trip to Europe. That relaxkiev website has pretty amazing looking girls at fair prices. Actually looks too good to be true so I'm guessing that's the case. Or please tell me these model looking girls actually show up at your door. I read that many pics are photoshopped but are they even close? Are websites like relalxkiev the primary source of meeting ladies in Kiev? Or is there a club scene where girls visit hoping to meet up with guys like us? One last question if anyone has also visited either Frankfurt or Barcelona how does it compare / contrast with the game in Kiev? Would very much appreciate any general info can be provided on the European scene as I'm not sure yet where to visit.

[Stevie69]

Yes, it is a tourist trap for the unprepared and naive traveler.

Use dovobo or any other such sites. Plenty of apartments available, maybe not for such a long time at first. I am sure that once you arrive, they would be willing to extend your lease. They just do not want to block off 2 months until hey are sure you will be there. Also, YOU do not want to settle on a place for 2 months before seeing it in person and spending a few nights. If you do not like it, switch. Switching is easier once you are there.

Baggage fees? How much luggage are you bringing? One 23 Kg suitcase is standard. Well, Air Baltic charges for everything!

If you play your cards right, you could have a great time.


Hey guys. So I need some advice. This trip is coming up very fast (July 16th) and its caught me off guard. I'm going to be there for 2 full months but I haven't found a place to stay yet. I'm looking at airbnb and homeaway but the prices seem to be shifting around a lot on the same listings. And they are exorbitant. Also, nobody wants to lease for as long as I want to stay. This has left me feeling discouraged. I don't even know if I might be in a jam with the airline yet for baggage fees. Is this city one big brutal tourist trap? Is this place really worth it, or am I better off cancelling?

[PhotoSlider]

Italian tourists are really bad. Not the worst in the world, but so coarse. I'm italian but often, when I'm alone traveling, don't speak italian so they don't mess with me...They didn't insult or made me feel uncomfortable. I would consider that being more of a different personality, more of a macho. Somewhat contrasting with the behavior of downtown Kiev residents. Those two Italians weren't obnoxious, just different. They were also visibly disappointed of not scoring easily, just being out of their element. Kiev would surely take their (and mine) money, with or without return on investment.

Ukraine is different from Italy, and these days Ukrainian girls behave differently towards foreigners than to their own. Besides that, at Avalon it did happen to me too, even though I spoke as a native. I approached couple young ladies, and one wanted to join me, but the other politely and firmly rejected, leaving no chance to the other one or myself.

Avalon is BYOG, not a pick up place.

On another location there was a group of Israeli gentlemen. Wanted me to go with them to show around, but I was tied up already.

Many foreigners visit Avalon. Management and Security watches things closely, never any incidents.

[PhotoSlider]

OK, but I am a bit hesitating: when a girl is looking for sponsors, is it that I can just cut through the bollocks of chit-chat and ask can we meet? What's your service and what do you charge?

I am happy to do so, but dunno if I put them off?Don't you worry. Girls themselves would let you know very quickly if they expect a gift. And if all they want is just a company, even better. Enjoy it, maybe you'll get a freebie, maybe not, just do not forget what your priorities are, and do not let them use you.

For some mongers BBBJ and Greek are mandatory. I do not mind, but never ask for those while ordering. I actually enjoy tender lovemaking, and hanging out with young ladies doing whatever.

I had one girl who stayed with me LT, and then became nervous, because I didn't pay her. And the more she requested, the less willing I was to give her anything, because she was sleeping with me, but postponed mating after few acts, expecting money first. Well, she wasn't the only pussy in the whole city. Eventually I told her straight "Good bye" with a smile on my face. She exclaimed: "Next time should discuss beforehand!" and stormed out. I was relieved.

I also had two other ladies, separately, where nothing was discussed at all. Each one of them arrived to Kiev to meet and stay with me. Upon arrival I made sure to feed properly (at my place), then shower. Each one of them (on a separate occasion) came out wrapped in a towel, and sat on my bed. It took less than 90 seconds to start DFK, put my hand between welcoming thighs, spread them slightly more, and see the smile on her happy face.

Again, nothing was discussed, I did give them money upon departure, about 2-3 K UAH a day, plus some modest shopping. In Kiev buying lingerie together is so much fun! Imagine telling the attractive sales lady in one of much more developed countries that you, looking late 50's, would help this literally 20 years old beauty, to try this bra in the changing room.

How did I find these girls? By grinding through agencies, and enjoying the casting process. One of the hourly girls told me this time that I am labeled "RC" - repeat customer, and that dispatchers and mama-sans are told to keep the service at the decent level, and the girls asked to smile and behave. There were occasional mishaps here and there, just like in any undertaking. Losing 1500-2000 UAH disappoints me less than not mating properly for 2-3 hours. In general staying in Kiev 3-5 weeks per visit and investing upfront in casting helped me to build my harem. Towards the last 2 weeks I stopped searching and relied on established contacts, in fact had hard time to allocate sufficient intervals to accommodate good ladies.

If you are in Kiev for 1-2 months, and have adequate resources, and are adequate yourself, you can do the same. Others sift through Mamba and alike and are more than satisfied.

[MagicSheep74]

Hi guys I'm new to the Kiev discussion as I'm researching for my upcoming hobby trip to Europe. That relaxkiev website has pretty amazing looking girls at fair prices. Actually looks too good to be true so I'm guessing that's the case. Or please tell me these model looking girls actually show up at your door. I read that many pics are photoshopped but are they even close? Are websites like relalxkiev the primary source of meeting ladies in Kiev? Or is there a club scene where girls visit hoping to meet up with guys like us? One last question if anyone has also visited either Frankfurt or Barcelona how does it compare / contrast with the game in Kiev? Would very much appreciate any general info can be provided on the European scene as I'm not sure yet where to visit.Barcelona, Madrid, Frankfurt, Berlin, Zurich, Prague, and Moscow are far superior for your hobby. Please see the individual threads for up date information on these destinations.

Kiev will seem relatively cheap as a city, but it very poor for mongering. Models from relaxkiev will never show up at your door.

Enjoy.

[TeFab456]

Hi guys I'm new to the Kiev discussion as I'm researching for my upcoming hobby trip to Europe. That relaxkiev website has pretty amazing looking girls at fair prices. Actually looks too good to be true so I'm guessing that's the case. Or please tell me these model looking girls actually show up at your door. I read that many pics are photoshopped but are they even close? Are websites like relalxkiev the primary source of meeting ladies in Kiev? Or is there a club scene where girls visit hoping to meet up with guys like us? One last question if anyone has also visited either Frankfurt or Barcelona how does it compare / contrast with the game in Kiev? Would very much appreciate any general info can be provided on the European scene as I'm not sure yet where to visit.The pictures are mostly fake, but if you send a text to the said number you will in all likelihood reach an agency, which will text you its current line up in Whatsapp or Viber. Those pictures can still be misleading but are often closer to the truth. With rates like 1400 + 200 taxi per hour it is possible to play a litte hit and miss. I think it makes more sense to go that way than Mamba. Tinder can also be interesting.

[AntonySun1996]

Very good, - step in the right direction, Antony!

Next one is not so easy, but still doable.

Give 1000 UAH to your not so exclusive anymore GF, send her away shopping at Ocean Plaza. While she is busy for few hours, - change the lock on the door, keeping it all legal. Move all her stiletto shoes and Michael Kors purses to a cheaper storage, and give her the key through the independent taxi driver, who doesn't give a shit.

Or even better. Just terminate the rent, and move out yourself. Let landlord handle her stuff.

Avoid the conflict, keep it civilized from your end. And do not stop seeing other girls, at least 2 or 3 every 24 hours. Always helped me. There was an attempt to abuse me exactly a week ago last Tuesday. Except I had a reliable young lady patiently waiting at my apartment. Took less than 12 hours, with love making sessions around midnight and another one in the morning, to get back to normal.

Please forgive my candor, Antony. You know that I respect you, even after certain mistakes.

The above eviction is overdue.Instead of eviction, I'm using a less radical method to deal with these dramas. I am going to reduce her allowances accordingly when I'm not treated by her with respect. It would be more fair that way meanwhile enough to let her know the consequences of pissing me off with no legit reasons.

[AntonySun1996]

Hi guys I'm new to the Kiev discussion as I'm researching for my upcoming hobby trip to Europe. That relaxkiev website has pretty amazing looking girls at fair prices. Actually looks too good to be true so I'm guessing that's the case. Or please tell me these model looking girls actually show up at your door. I read that many pics are photoshopped but are they even close? Are websites like relalxkiev the primary source of meeting ladies in Kiev? Or is there a club scene where girls visit hoping to meet up with guys like us? One last question if anyone has also visited either Frankfurt or Barcelona how does it compare / contrast with the game in Kiev? Would very much appreciate any general info can be provided on the European scene as I'm not sure yet where to visit.Almost all escort sites in Kiev are full of fake profiles. I'm wondering if any honorable gentlemen on this forum with enough time and resources would be interested in building a trustworthy local escort site with no fakes. That would be great.

[PhotoSlider]

The pictures are mostly fake, but if you send a text to the said number you will in all likelihood reach an agency, which will text you its current line up in Whatsapp or Viber. Those pictures can still be misleading but are often closer to the truth. With rates like 1400 + 200 taxi per hour it is possible to play a little hit and miss...That is precisely how I built my stable of attractive ladies. Except call girls do not take taxi, it is their own driver, and they are not going that far. 100 is more than enough. They always insist, I always state clearly to dispatcher before they even depart from their base that I will give 100 for taxi. Then they say 100 is one-way, and I suggest that they leave, because I always pay 100, and they are not doing a round-trip, they drive through mongers like a postal truck making deliveries. Then they call the base, discuss, and say "Alright, it's a 100".

Sometimes when one of the girls sent to me for "casting" is too forceful in her negotiations (daydreaming that she already has been promoted to run her brothel) and the other girl in the car is fuckable, silent, and smiling, I say "Fine, you go back, I take this girl instead, but I only pay 100 for taxi".

Do not pay 200.

On the other hand I never saw 1400 price. For me they quoted 1500+100 which is the same as 1400+200. Requests went as high as 2600, and I paid 2000+100 tops. Quite often it was 1600 or 1800. In June quality went down, but 2-3 out of 5 girls were acceptable.

[DramaFree11]

Barcelona, Madrid, Frankfurt, Berlin, Zurich, Prague, and Moscow are far superior for your hobby. Please see the individual threads for up date information on these destinations.

Kiev will seem relatively cheap as a city, but it very poor for mongering. Models from relaxkiev will never show up at your door.

Enjoy.Very well said. Also part of Latin America and Asia are also much better destinations for girls.

[Stevie69]

Why do people negotiate transportation separately? The price, whatever it is, should be all-inclusive. I do not care how they get to my place, as long as they do so at he agreed-upon time. In any case, I assume that in most cases, they will take the metro, not a taxi. Why would they pay 100 UAH and get stuck in traffic, when they can pay 8 and arrive even faster. Well, maybe some girls would do ti for the feeling of luxury they get, and because it is not their money, but most girls, the usual pragmatic Kiev girls, would just pocket the money and take the metro.

Besides, 200 UAh is the real price (not the foreigner price) all the way from the airport, so how far are these girls coming from?

I have occasionally offered them to send my driver to pick them up but they always decline, saying that they do not want to get into a car with a stranger. Well, what is a taxi if not a stranger in a car? And besides, they will soon be naked in an apartment with a stranger, so the logic does not hold. To me, it just says that they are extremely close, or they are far and will take the metro, but in either case, they just want to add 100 to 200 to the price.

The hard core professionals might take their own drivers, but again, the price ought to be included. How they get to my place is not my problem.

Furthermore, how they leave is not my problem. I have had girls ask for taxi money as they leave! I show them the money they still have in hand, and tell them: THAT is taxi money, and food money, and vodka money, and rent money, and shoes money, and make-up money.

I hate being nickel and dime. I do not care whether it is banks, or airlines, or working girls.


That is precisely how I built my stable of attractive ladies. Except call girls do not take taxi, it is their own driver, and they are not going that far. 100 is more than enough. They always insist, I always state clearly to dispatcher before they even depart from their base that I will give 100 for taxi. Then they say 100 is one-way, and I suggest that they leave, because I always pay 100, and they are not doing a round-trip, they drive through mongers like a postal truck making deliveries. Then they call the base, discuss, and say "Alright, it's a 100".

Sometimes when one of the girls sent to me for "casting" is too forceful in her negotiations (daydreaming that she already has been promoted to run her brothel) and the other girl in the car is fuckable, silent, and smiling, I say "Fine, you go back, I take this girl instead, but I only pay 100 for taxi".

Do not pay 200.

On the other hand I never saw 1400 price. For me they quoted 1500+100 which is the same as 1400+200. Requests went as high as 2600, and I paid 2000+100 tops. Quite often it was 1600 or 1800. In June quality went down, but 2-3 out of 5 girls were acceptable.

[JohnnyW]

OK, but I am a bit hesitating: when a girl is looking for sponsors, is it that I can just cut through the bollocks of chit-chat and ask can we meet? What's your service and what do you charge?

I am happy to do so, but dunno if I put them off?If they ask for a sponsor. Ask them to meet today or tomorrow. If they say: yes! Than talk about price and posibilities. My tip: when you have there number, Always do a videocall. Just to be sure it is the same lasy as on Mamba.

If the girl is not looking for a sponsor, just ask them directly: what you looking for? If she want to make some money, she will tell you!

Happy hunting!

[Kozerog]

Why do people negotiate transportation separately? The price, whatever it is, should be all-inclusive.
I tried this back when I was grinding through girls. Agency will agree, then when girl shows up, agreement is forgotten and 200 added back on. So now a phone argument with mamasan while standing in the street. I concluded simpler to negotiate upfront 200 for taxi and take harder line on girl's cost, so as to win back some of all of that 200. After reading Photoslider's reasoning below, I would now use his 100 number.

With independents, yes, you can specify a total price, but be sure to be clear this includes taxi or other transportation in the written Viber conversation. No oral agreements about money or other numbers.

My jewel is frugal about many things. For example, discusses where she shops cheaply for meat. And she is independent, so it's her money. But she splurges on a taxi, which runs about 150 uah each way according to Uklon, or more at rush hours, since she lives out in suburbs. Meanwhile I walk, at least if under 2 km, to save 8 uah subway fare, though admittedly I like walking. These girls clearly get some sort of thrill from the luxury of being chauffeured around that overrides their usual pragmatism about money. Same as with their beloved manicures and other beauty treatments. Women everywhere love small luxuries.



Besides, 200 UAh is the real price (not the foreigner price) all the way from the airport, so how far are these girls coming from?
No way you will get 200 from city center to Borispil. Two years ago, I arranged with 3 cheapskate-looking Ukrainian guys to split a broken down cab from Kharkivska metro to Borispil for 50 uah each, or 200 total (versus 50 uah each on overcrowded and slower bus 322 back then). From city center it would have been at least 300 then. Last summer it was 320 by myself using Uklon from Podol to Borispil. Currently shows 355 on Uklon, more at rush hours. To Zuhliany, Uklon shows 110 uah currently.

[Misterxxx]

No way you will get 200 from city center to Borispil.Try Uber. They have a special offer. Up to 200 uah discount

https://www.visa.com.ua/ru_UA/pay-with-visa/promotions/uber-promotion.html

[PhotoSlider]

Why do people negotiate transportation separately? The price, whatever it is, should be all-inclusive. I do not care how they get to my place, as long as they do so at he agreed-upon time. In any case, I assume that in most cases, they will take the metro, not a taxi.I am talking about agency girls. They never use metro, because their bases are downtown, and their own dedicated driver (not taxi) is faster to shuttle, drop off and pick up girls between bases and multiple customers. Walking to / from metro station and going up / down elevator stairs in metro takes much longer.

However the above is not even a main argument. Girls arrive in high heels fuck-me-shoes, and cannot possible use public transportation in those. The idea is for them to look slutty / attractive for average drunk male monger.

For agency it is logistics and cutting the business delivery cost down, based on multiple mongers and multiple girls spread performing their miracles all over the city. Base is the hub, girls move between customers, sometimes returning to the base. If you are not satisfied, - go with independents. Those do use metro regularly. Agency is interested in what is convenient to you only if you behave and order a lot. Otherwise you are one of many that will disappear in a few days. Customer service is lacking in Kiev.

I do not mind random fluctuations in the service level, as long as the girls they eventually deliver are 70% palatable. Why? Because this is not Amazon or Alibaba. I cannot possible imagine ordering girls of such a quality for that little money in my own country of residence. So I am neither daydreaming nor complaining about 100 UAH taxi fee. I am not paying 200 though, because I order enough and 100 x 15 or 20 means having another girl. It also means holding down the greedy pimps, and not feeding inflation.

I do ask some of the independents to arrive in low or comfortable shoes if we expect to go sightseeing.

[DramaFree11]

Just to Clarify you are arguing with agencies and girls over $3. Probably not a good decision, especially if you are a newbie. You need to pick your battles, remember if you cause issues agencies they will block you. This makes zero sense to me.

[Stevie69]

I hope this does not turn into an all out war of words. Two topics, high heels and taxis.

Eastern European girls are used to walking long distances on ridiculous; why high heels at least from the time they turn 15. I was once in SPB, like an idiot, waking around in dress shoes instead of sneakers. Tired of walking, I sat on a bench at a corner. A few minutes later, a couple of teenage girls started to gather nearby. No, not for me, they were just meeting at that corner. They were clearly under 18, but dressed like grown-up women. A friendly conversation ensued, and among other things, I asked them how long they had been wearing high heels, and whether they were going to a special party. The answer were since 14 or 15 or so, and no, they were just shopping. Soon the entire group gathered and moved on.

In any major city there is an area where people walk on weekends, particularly during nice weather. Back and forth the girls go for hours, just enjoying the day, dressed beautifully, and often sporting amazing high heels.

Girls go to nightclubs and dance vigorously for hours wearing insane high heels.

I had friend who would not be caught dead with flat shoes. That did not always mean 10 cm, but at least 4 or 5 cm, even for a simple walk to the market. To her, it was just part of being a woman. To me, it is none of the great things about eastern Europe!

Second, a couple of years ago, I had a girl (who wanted to marry me!) arrange a taxi to the airport for me for 200 UAH. I gave the guy 200 plus all the change I had, maybe 230 UAH. Maybe now the price would have been 230 UAH. Who knows; the point remains. The locals laugh at the prices we pay!


I am talking about agency girls. They never use metro, because their bases are downtown, and their own dedicated driver (not taxi) is faster to shuttle, drop off and pick up girls between bases and multiple customers. Walking to / from metro station and going up / down elevator stairs in metro takes much longer.

However the above is not even a main argument. Girls arrive in high heels fuck-me-shoes, and cannot possible use public transportation in those. The idea is for them to look slutty / attractive for average drunk male monger..

[Monger Longer]

Can anybody make any personal recommendations from RelaxKiev? Incall is preferred.

Thanks.

[TeFab456]

Just to Clarify you are arguing with agencies and girls over $3. Probably not a good decision, especially if you are a newbie. You need to pick your battles, remember if you cause issues agencies they will block you. This makes zero sense to me.Today 200 UAH is worth 6,66 €. To me this is a fair amount which can serve as a cancellation fee if you don't accept the girl. You could of course in many cases also argue you were promised somebody else or some other idea of a woman. You would therefore be entitled to send her (ever so often: them, because sometimes they send a selection of girls in one car) back without taxi fare.

But to me the 200 UAH are something like a tax. This is not my country, I am a sex tourist, I don't see any reason why I should be super stingy. If I like the girl I can still spend an hour with her for 1600 or 1800 the 200 included. Which is not a lot of money for an Italian middle class man. Agency girls are rarely in the business for the fun of it so this is another reason to show some respect for the situation. 200 UAH is a currency for this predicament.

Unfortunately after the loss of Backpage (which used to have great independents) nothing like it ever surfaced (at least I didn't find anything). So agencies via Relaxkiev or similar sites are a feasible way for anybody who does not want to invest into more upscale options like sugar or travel websites. Mamba never really worked very well for me.

[Stevie69]

More like 4, or 8, and / or 10-20 % of the price, but that is not the point. The price, whatever it is, ought to be all-inclusive.

And though shall only think in local currency.


Just to Clarify you are arguing with agencies and girls over $3. Probably not a good decision, especially if you are a newbie. You need to pick your battles, remember if you cause issues agencies they will block you. This makes zero sense to me.

[TinyHippo]

More like 4, or 8, and / or 10-20 % of the price, but that is not the point. The price, whatever it is, ought to be all-inclusive.

And though shall only think in local currency.The taxi fee is separate in case you turn the girl away. It is how things are done in Ukraine. If you do not like it, go somewhere else.

I do not know where you are from, but you remind me of an American woman I saw in Prague yelling at a waitress for not speaking English. Follow local customs when you are not in your home country.

[Kozerog]

Just to Clarify you are arguing with agencies and girls over $3. Probably not a good decision, especially if you are a newbie. You need to pick your battles, remember if you cause issues agencies they will block you. This makes zero sense to me.If taxi fare you agreed to is high, and you have shown yourself willing to pay taxi fare each time you send girls back for whatever reason, then agency figures they can earn a little extra by alternating bad girls with good, so as to earn these extra taxi fares. Bad business, because it just pisses customers off in the long run, but that's Kyiv agency thinking.

If you don't pay the taxi fare several times in succession, that will definitely make the agency block you, as will yelling at them when you figure out the scam they are running. Best thing is to follow Photoslider's 100 uah rule. And fight for that price up front, on your initial order with the agency, so you don't have to renegotiate on subsequent orders.

There are also scam agencies which send truly hideous girls, knowing you'll reject. At 200 uah per scam and 1 scam per hour, then profit of 100 if actual taxi is 100.100 uah per hour is enough money in Kyiv to support two poor people running such a scam. If actual taxi is 50, and you agree to 100, then profit only 50 per hour, which is close to unfeasible for two people.

Regarding airport taxi fares, note that bus 322 costs 100 uah from central train station. That bus is standing room only, mostly airport workers, sweltering hot in summer. I take it myself if I am not in a hurry. It makes no sense that a private taxi would cost the same for two people as two bus 322 fares. Also Uklon fares ARE local fares. Maybe an unaffiliated taxi might undercut Uklon by 10-20%, but not 40% or more. Uber is more expensive, unless using that discount mentioned in another post.

[Stevie69]

With some people, differences of opinion always get personal.

I will not go somewhere else. I like Ukraine. I am just sharing what I think have been my keys to success, regardless of where I am from.

I am nothing like an American woman. For one think, I am not as fat!

You guys are talking about agencies, them sending you uglies, and being black-listed. I think we are playing a different game. I deal with independents, not agencies, part timers, not professionals. I also get a new number every time I go, so even if I dealt with agencies, they would find it hard to blacklist me. And if the photos do not match the person who shows up, hey get rejected. No questions asked, no taxi fare, not even metro fare.


The taxi fee is separate in case you turn the girl away. It is how things are done in Ukraine. If you do not like it, go somewhere else.

I do not know where you are from, but you remind me of an American woman I saw in Prague yelling at a waitress for not speaking English. Follow local customs when you are not in your home country.

[DramaFree11]

If taxi fare you agreed to is high, and you have shown yourself willing to pay taxi fare each time you send girls back for whatever reason, then agency figures they can earn a little extra by alternating bad girls with good, so as to earn these extra taxi fares. Bad business, because it just pisses customers off in the long run, but that's Kyiv agency thinking.

If you don't pay the taxi fare several times in succession, that will definitely make the agency block you, as will yelling at them when you figure out the scam they are running. Best thing is to follow Photoslider's 100 uah rule. And fight for that price up front, on your initial order with the agency, so you don't have to renegotiate on subsequent orders.

There are also scam agencies which send truly hideous girls, knowing you'll reject. At 200 uah per scam and 1 scam per hour, then profit of 100 if actual taxi is 100.100 uah per hour is enough money in Kyiv to support two poor people running such a scam. If actual taxi is 50, and you agree to 100, then profit only 50 per hour, which is close to unfeasible for two people..Wow, this is one scam I did not know about. Some of the girls online or the dating agency will ask for way more, ($25-50), but I never thought about someone doing it for a couple of bucks, not a very glamorous way to make a living. I guess if you can do 5-10, in a shift it is a decent nights wage in Kiev. I was primarily meeting girls at the clubs and apartments, so this was not an issue.

You guys must have an incredible pain tolerance to put up with the BS you guys tolerate. In Mexico I have almost had no issues with scams. Maybe have to turn away 1 or 2, out of 10 away at the door. Russia even better, maybe 1 out of 10, if even that and as far as scams almost nothing just to give some examples. Both in Mexico / Russia the girls are better looking in person, then there pictures, this almost never happened in Kiev.

[PhotoSlider]

...You guys are talking about agencies, them sending you uglies, and being black-listed. I think we are playing a different game. I deal with independents, not agencies, part timers, not professionals...True indeed. Independents often arrive on foot / by metro, and if they ever ask about taxi fare, it is done during remote negotiations / courtship phase via Viber. If it is reasonable, I agree. My regular contacts do not discuss taxi fare. Some even insist on paying themselves.

If I like girl's performance and personality, I may give her 100 UAH taxi fare or even a bigger tip upon departure. If, however she begs for taxi fare "because it's always like that", or tells her story about crying babies at home and other shit, then it's a sure way to get a firm "No" and "Bye".

As far as walking around in high heels. Yeah, it's hilarious! Last December, upon completing the deed, my lady of the hour happened to walk back to the base in high heels, a G-string, light skirt, and no pantyhose. All the way to the base about 15-20 minutes in minus 15 Celsius, roughly +5 Fahrenheit! Essentially bare ass. Totally stupid behavior!

And yeah, her high heels were clattering on centuries old cobblestone along the remnants of the 10th century city fortress walls descending from Golden Gates to Maidan. But she was a rare exception, because around 7 am in the morning no other orders were expected, their driver retired till 9-10 am when new troops were expected to wake up, and she was just plain crazy.

[PhotoSlider]

...Follow local customs when you are not in your home country.Local customs in Kiev are to extort as much money as possible from visitors that allow that.

On that subject, I am sorry, but I align with Stevie. I am not a walking ATM to get milked by whoever feels entitled.

[Flexxx]

Heading to Kiev tomorrow. Was hoping to get a membership to ISG so I could contact other members for advice while I was there but now that is not possible since there is presently no credit card processor for ISG. I'm sure they are trying to rectify this but in the meantime its frustrating to not be able to reach out other than here on the board.

It's my first time and I only have 4 days in the city. I love going for massages and also checking out the strip bars. I will review the Kiev thread in detail but from what I understand strip bars might not be the greatest idea? Tourist traps? What about decent massage places?

I've set up an account on mamba and will research using it over the next few days but any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to do my best to avoid getting ripped off but I am pricing in some funds for exactly that as every new locale has a learning curve.

Is there anyone experienced on the board that will be in Kiev to meet up for a drink? I would welcome any advice that might make my trip go a bit smoother.

Thanks in advance!

[Muddy7]

relaxkiev.com- for some of the photos it says "photo checked" its BS, right? Most of the checked photos are fake?

[Kozerog]

You guys must have an incredible pain tolerance to put up with the BS you guys tolerate.
My pain tolerance for BS and scamming is actually very low, but I also have a very low need for novelty and I'm long-term oriented, which compensates. I was willing to put up with BS agency tactics as a learning experience, then I put up different BS from independents because I was certain I would eventually find a quality independent, and indeed I did find one. Then I just stuck with that girl and have been happy ever since.

Gave my jewel a pay raise this Monday, in fact. Maybe some posters here will shake their heads at 5000 uah for 4 hours, 2-3 times a week, plus big bonus at end of summer plus maybe some paid travel together later this year. But I get more pleasure from this girl than anything else I could spend money on, since all other sources of pleasure are free or close to free (morning calisthenics / yoga, hiking in the mountains, music and books, sitting in the park). It would be very foolish to give her an incentive to keep looking for a better sponsor. I'll post a final statement at end of summer of what I gave her, but probably will be around $6000.

[DramaFree11]

My pain tolerance for BS and scamming is actually very low, but I also have a very low need for novelty and I'm long-term oriented, which compensates. I was willing to put up with BS agency tactics as a learning experience, then I put up different BS from independents because I was certain I would eventually find a quality independent, and indeed I did find one. Then I just stuck with that girl and have been happy ever since.

Gave my jewel a pay raise this Monday, in fact. Maybe some posters here will shake their heads at 5000 uah for 4 hours, 2-3 times a week, plus big bonus at end of summer plus maybe some paid travel together later this year. But I get more pleasure from this girl than anything else I could spend money on, since all other sources of pleasure are free or close to free (morning calisthenics / yoga, hiking in the mountains, music and books, sitting in the park). It would be very foolish to give her an incentive to keep looking for a better sponsor. I'll post a final statement at end of summer of what I gave her, but probably will be around $6000.I think it is a great idea. Be happy and have fun. Nothing wrong with taking care of someone you care about and gives you pleasure.

[Flexxx]

If there is anyone in Kiev that can meet me and help guide me through the city please reach out. I am willing to pay generously for any local connections. Any suggestions anyone?

[Guntherus]

[Personal message deleted by Admin]

==============================================

Gentlemen,

Please communicate personal messages via the PM System

The Open Forum is generally intended for the posting of information that is of interest to all readers.

Please use the Forum's Private Message system to exchange personal information and make personal plans.

Thank You

[Flexxx]

[Personal message deleted by Admin]

==============================================

Gentlemen,

Please communicate personal messages via the PM System

The Open Forum is generally intended for the posting of information that is of interest to all readers.

Please use the Forum's Private Message system to exchange personal information and make personal plans.

Thank You

[Muddy7]

Red Lion only asks 100 UAH for lap dance? Wow. Scarlette and Rio ask for 600 now. Anyone else has experiences of other clubs or Red Lion? I am bored of visiting Scarlette every time now.Wow, 600, what a rip off.

[ShawMan74]

My pain tolerance for BS and scamming is actually very low, but I also have a very low need for novelty and I'm long-term oriented, which compensates. I was willing to put up with BS agency tactics as a learning experience, then I put up different BS from independents because I was certain I would eventually find a quality independent, and indeed I did find one. Then I just stuck with that girl and have been happy ever since.

Gave my jewel a pay raise this Monday, in fact. Maybe some posters here will shake their heads at 5000 uah for 4 hours, 2-3 times a week, plus big bonus at end of summer plus maybe some paid travel together later this year. But I get more pleasure from this girl than anything else I could spend money on, since all other sources of pleasure are free or close to free (morning calisthenics / yoga, hiking in the mountains, music and books, sitting in the park). It would be very foolish to give her an incentive to keep looking for a better sponsor. I'll post a final statement at end of summer of what I gave her, but probably will be around $6000.Bro, I'm so happy for you. This is what its all about. As far as haggling goes, at some point the extra dollar or two that forms a line in the sand loses its value compared to what you are getting. At the end of the day, you only live once, and getting "cheated" for a dollar or two is still a damn sight better than losing that life to loneliness in ameriKa.

I'm not a sportf**ker, so I prefer to make some kind of connection. I've not married, never had kids, nobody's at home getting hurt, so I want to experiment with "an arrangement" to see if it might better suit me. From your post here its interesting to see what such a relationship looks like in this country. I hope to find someone to share my summer with, it would be nice.

[Riina]

I hope to find someone to share my summer with, it would be nice.That's going to cost. I'm sure you have a wad of cash too, but most men don't want to spend long periods of time with fake friends.

Just to be clear, emotional connection and friendship are two very different things. You're likely to find the former grinding through hookers, but rarely the latter.

[DramaFree11]

Wow, 600, what a rip off.

This should not be a surprise. Both Night Clubs and Strip Clubs are bad at the moment in Kiev. Both are rip offs and way overrated, this has been said by many. Just too many Sex Tourists and not enough high quality girls.

You are better off spending your days meeting girls on the street or dealing with Escorts.

[Kozerog]

That's going to cost. I'm sure you have a wad of cash too, but most men don't want to spend long periods of time with fake friends.

Just to be clear, emotional connection and friendship are two very different things. You're likely to find the former grinding through hookers, but rarely the latter.Just to clarify, relationship between me and my jewel is based neither on strong emotional connection nor real friendship, but rather on good sex in a context of mutual respect, mutual reliability, mutual honesty, etc. I don't jerk her around with BS, she doesn't jerk me around. Reliably good sex a few times per week, with zero BS, is exactly what I need at this point in my life. Far more important than love, which I don't even think I'm capable of anymore. Nor do I really want anyone to love me.

[PhotoSlider]

Just to clarify, relationship between me and my jewel is based neither on strong emotional connection nor real friendship, but rather on good sex in a context of mutual respect, mutual reliability, mutual honesty, etc. I don't jerk her around with BS, she doesn't jerk me around. Reliably good sex a few times per week, with zero BS, is exactly what I need at this point in my life. Far more important than love, which I don't even think I'm capable of anymore. Nor do I really want anyone to love me.Concise honest explanation. For a lot of people this is one of the definitions for real friendship. But words do not matter if both of you are content.

I am currently in a somewhat different type of agreement with 4 young ladies. We all understand that in our circle nothing is exclusive. Yet nobody fucks my brains, and vice versa. And whenever available, we meet and are extremely happy to see each other. Sex is amazing, so is interaction at other levels.

Some of my money they use to buy decent clothes, and beauty salons services, nothing outrageous though. All 4 ladies are independent enough, and I fully realize that their beauty is not for my eyes only. In fact I do not use Tinder, and saw one of them getting Tinder superlikes. We didn't discuss it, as it doesn't bother me. I know when she is with me for 2-3 days straight, she will not full around.

This way I get enough variety and dedication at the same time.

Still working on perfecting this arrangement.

[ShawMan74]

Between 898, Bolt, Ontaxi, Hopin, Uklon, and Uber, which is the best ride sharing / taxi app for kyiv?

I'm not the kind of guy who is going to try his luck on a bus / subway, in a language I don't speak. Thanks as always to all replies.

[Michi T]

Between 898, Bolt, Ontaxi, Hopin, Uklon, and Uber, which is the best ride sharing / taxi app for kyiv?

I'm not the kind of guy who is going to try his luck on a bus / subway, in a language I don't speak. Thanks as always to all replies.The Kiev Metro is easy to ride. The stations are labeled also in normal letters.

[Michi T]

Wow, 600, what a rip off.

This should not be a surprise. Both Night Clubs and Strip Clubs are bad at the moment in Kiev. Both are rip offs and way overrated, this has been said by many. Just too many Sex Tourists and not enough high quality girls.

You are better off spending your days meeting girls on the street or dealing with Escorts.Feel free to contact me if you want to join me in July talking to girls.

[ShawMan74]

Feel free to contact me if you want to join me in July talking to girls.I may not be "dramafree", but I'll join you in talking to girls this July haha

I'm there in kyiv from July 17th thru Sept. 18th.

[Muddy7]

Between 898, Bolt, Ontaxi, Hopin, Uklon, and Uber, which is the best ride sharing / taxi app for kyiv?

I'm not the kind of guy who is going to try his luck on a bus / subway, in a language I don't speak. Thanks as always to all replies.I have used uber there, no problems.

[Stefan 7]

Carribean and Chi. This is what Dramafree complains about. If you go to Carribean Arabs and Turks will destroy you since the club is full of them and for Chi you need to pay 300 euro for table to get in so why bother?Shit, 300 euro for CHI, fuk it.

[Stefan 7]

How is princess strip club? How much are lap dances?

https://princessclub.com.ua/en/club/

[Flexxx]

So after a long flight we land in Kiev at around 2 pm local time. Head over to our hotel and meet a local guide who is there to help us to navigate the city. The weather was weird and after a brief down pour we live the hotel and leave the hotel with a bright sunny sky. We head to the center of Kiev by metro, which is probably the quickest way to get from A to be. I got a pass for 90 uah, which gave me 10 rides on the metro. I was pleasantly surprised that the automated voice on the metro announced stations in both Ukrainian and English.

After two quick stops we were at Independence Square to a 17:00 meeting with a fellow board member. As we exited the metro we realized the rain was back with a vengeance. It was an absolute torrential rain storm and we couldn't exit the metro for 20 minutes. After making a run for it we arrived at where we thought we were supposed to be soaked through. As we had a beer and waited for our friend to arrive we saw the rain finally recede. Unfortunately were were unable to connect with our fellow member and decided to start exploring the city. As the lights went down everyone poured out on to the streets drinking beer in the parks and side walk cafes. I noticed a lot of young people and there was a good overall energy as we walked around.

At this point we decided to find a massage parlour and get some action. We went on a long walk to Angelina Massage and after some difficulty we were able to get up to the apartment. We had been quote 800 hryvania and I was somewhat skeptical because the price seemed so cheap. The common areas of the apartment building was quite disgusting and we were somewhat shocked by the smells we encountered in the stair well. As we got into the apartment we were met by an older lady and ushered into the apartment. The apartment was much cleaner than the common area thankfully. We were then directed into another room where we were met by 7 to 8 older women. It wasn't quite what we were looking for and we conveyed that we were not interested and turned to leave. There was a moment of uncertainty as we realized the door was locked from the inside but then the older lady who initially greeted us came and opened the door. The madame and ladies were all very nice but it just wasn't what we were looking for as they were all well past their prime.

We enjoyed some food and beer in an open plaza with a large waterfall center piece. All the tables were full of young people enjoying the warm weather. Afterwards we called an uber as it had been a long day and we were tired and headed back to the hotel. I just wanted to go to sleep but my friend decided to call for a massage. He was very happy with the lady who came to greet him. He was quoted 1400 hryvania and he gave a 100 tip. Girl was different than picture that was sent via whatsapp but girl was more than acceptable. https://www.bodytobody.club/.

Initial reaction was very positive. Arranging more meet ups today. Will update when possible. Leaving in a few days and looking for next destination. Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade or Sofia. Any suggestions?

[AeneasCarousin]

Greetings from Kyiv.

#1 is Uber at all times except bad nature (raining) or peak jams. Install the app.

#2 red taxi.

Tip don't ignore the subway unless claustrophobic or baroque-junkie. Would save you bucks, time & nerves.

Other options come and go, so winners change.


Between 898, Bolt, Ontaxi, Hopin, Uklon, and Uber, which is the best ride sharing / taxi app for kyiv?

I'm not the kind of guy who is going to try his luck on a bus / subway, in a language I don't speak. Thanks as always to all replies.

[AeneasCarousin]

I'd say 99% are fake (remaining 1% are homely or downright scary) and 90+% do not bear slightest semblance to reality.


relaxkiev.com- for some of the photos it says "photo checked" its BS, right? Most of the checked photos are fake?

[Riina]

Shit, 300 euro for CHI, fuk it.This is one of the most disappointing things about Kiev. You can't go to a club and watch beautiful women anymore. If you're over forty and single, they don't want you there unless you give them ridiculous money.

[Muddy7]

We enjoyed some food and beer in an open plaza with a large waterfall center piece. All the tables were full of young people enjoying the warm weather. Afterwards we called an uber as it had been a long day and we were tired and headed back to the hotel. I just wanted to go to sleep but my friend decided to call for a massage. He was very happy with the lady who came to greet him. He was quoted 1400 hryvania and he gave a 100 tip. Girl was different than picture that was sent via whatsapp but girl was more than acceptable. https://www.bodytobody.club/.

Initial reaction was very positive. Arranging more meet ups today. Will update when possible. Leaving in a few days and looking for next destination. Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade or Sofia. Any suggestions?Massage:

http://salondream.kiev.ua/

[Sorbonne]

I've been so out of it lately in Kiev and just noticed that Salon Dolly has been closed?

Anybody know what happened?

It's not like Dolly was the best there was in Kiev by any means, but I'm just curious because to me Dolly was where it all started in Kiev.

Or it was the place to go after disappointing nights at RP.

[ShawMan74]

How is princess strip club? How much are lap dances?

https://princessclub.com.ua/en/club/That one has my spidey-senses tingling. From the website it looks like they have a "by any means necessary" mentality when it comes to customers. Look at the way they micro-manage on their "menu". Is it a "special extra" if I shake her hand when I introduce myself? And what if you don't have a prescription of the exact order in which your evening is going to flow? God help you because nothing else will! LOL, foh.

In all my travels, I know one thing to be universal. Too many vicious assholes in this world only ever feel pleasure when they injure others. Moreover, they feel like a hero when they do. Generally speaking, vice is like a mecca for pathologicals. In those places, protect yourself at all times, you are behind enemy lines.

[ShawMan74]

Leaving in a few days and looking for next destination. Bucharest, Budapest, Belgrade or Sofia. Any suggestions?I was actually looking into all of those locations for my upcoming trip. From what I could tell, for more reasons than just hobbying, Budapest is the only one to bother with.

[Stefan 7]

Interesting article on apartments (smart brothels).

Any idea how to find these apartments?

http://ukrainian-passport.com/blog/dissolute-kyiv-how-the-sex-industry-is-organized-in-the-capital/

[Jsk1989]

I was actually looking into all of those locations for my upcoming trip. From what I could tell, for more reasons than just hobbying, Budapest is the only one to bother with.Bucharest seems to have a decent amount of massage places.

[Sevenup]

I've been so out of it lately in Kiev and just noticed that Salon Dolly has been closed?

Anybody know what happened?

It's not like Dolly was the best there was in Kiev by any means, but I'm just curious because to me Dolly was where it all started in Kiev.

Or it was the place to go after disappointing nights at RP.Oh! That's sad. So many good memories of that place with amazing girls!

What's hot these days, in terms of massage places in Kiev?

[Kozerog]

Interesting article on apartments (smart brothels).
Any idea how to find these apartments?
http://ukrainian-passport.com/blog/dissolute-kyiv-how-the-sex-industry-is-organized-in-the-capital/Walk along Khreschatyk near Maidan and find a taxi driver who speaks decent English. Discuss what you want and prices with him before getting in the taxi: how much to pay him, how much for girls for services you want, how much to take you to other apartments if you don't like the first apartment (ideally he would accompany you upstairs and introduce you), etc.

Also, that article is just sensationalism. Reality is what you find in this forum: Kyiv is mostly a boulevard of broken dreams for unprepared guys in a hurry, and a pussy paradise for prepared guys thinking long term. Read the last two years of forum entries.

[Stevie69]

...Just to be clear, emotional connection and friendship are two very different things. You're likely to find the former grinding through hookers, but rarely the latter.Often I have had a wonderful time while paying for it, sometimes even better than when I do not pay for it (directly). At the moment, it felt real, and the next time it was just as good. We joke about marriage, and still having a relationship 5 or 10 years later. However, as long as I am paying for it (directly), I would never consider these girls friends, and I certainly would not trust them.

[CastOnThis]

How is princess strip club? How much are lap dances?

https://princessclub.com.ua/en/club/The one that is hidden and close to Millenium at dnipro? Yeah, not any good. Most strip clubs have 8 ugly chicks and 1 ok chick. And management at these places is super aggressive. I wouldn't bother going to any strip club, go to the BAR at Arena city, but avoid all strip clubs in there.

Paradise cabaret was good. Expensive, but good women.

[ShawMan74]

Bucharest seems to have a decent amount of massage places.It might. I haven't been. But the research I've done here on this forum and a couple of others have suggested otherwise. I hope you're right though, it'll give me somewhere to go to. Hehe.

[Stefan 7]

27th.

Scarlette again. For what was one of the most memorable nights of my life. My friend and I were in a mood to spend money. After the managers (yet again) fake drama of 'no tables' despite making reservations on the phone, we finally got one after 30 minutes after the manager noticed the expensive drinks we had ordered. What follows next is epic. We got the prettiest girls in the house (1 each) and convinced them to spend the night with us. (600 USD each but then we we like who's going to come back to Kiev again so let's make a night to remember). At 2 am we left the club with the girls (Rada and Karina, I think) and they took us to Dolls! We danced, had 3 way lap dances, drank our brains out, made out with the girls on the floor, swapped them for groping etc, 3 way smooches et al. The best GFE experience we have had!! Only negative is that Dolls, as a choice made by the girls, was probably a set up. We were cajoled into spending 13000 UAH at Dolls!
600 each?? Wasnt it $300 for 3 hours and $400 for all night? Damn.

[Stefan 7]

Main problem with relaxkiev, sexkiev.net, kievlady.com, kievescort.net, (now dead) backpage.com, ukrgo.com, etc is the prevalence of fake photos. Phone numbers usually for hidden agencies. If you don't care about appearance, not too hard to get some girl to show up if you're offering money. Other big problem is unreliable attitudes. There are rumors of drugging and robberies with true independents, so that's another issue if you are using an apartment versus a hotel where they have to register with photo ID.I'm visiting Kiev soon, I'll stay in a flat in the center near Bessarabska Square, is it safe to see girls from relaxkiev in my flat? Or should I rent a room in a hotel every time I want to see a girl from relaxkiev?

[Stevie69]

Here is a local article, indicating the prices that locals pay. These numbers and the prices advertised on online sites, are the only guide semi-pros have, at least until they try out the business a while and realize that they could be asking a lot more, and some people, particularly foreigners, will pay. That is why the semi-pros, or rather the occasional pros, the once or twice a week pros, single mothers, cashier girls, or students, can be happy with 1000-1500 UAH.

http://ukrainian-passport.com/blog/dissolute-kyiv-how-the-sex-industry-is-organized-in-the-capital/

" They start from 300, and rarely exceed 1,000 hryvnias per an hour in the ordinary joints.

At the same time you can find offers from 200 hryvnias of "individuals" on the special sites. The price largely depends on willingness of an owner or an individual girl but it is very difficult to determine the "quality of the service".

"One day, we covered two brothels; in one prices started from 300, in the other – from 800 UAH / hour, but, frankly, here and there the prostitutes were the same – the girls of average look and age", – Sergey admitted.

[PhotoSlider]

Often I have had a wonderful time while paying for it, sometimes even better than when I do not pay for it (directly). At the moment, it felt real, and the next time it was just as good. We joke about marriage, and still having a relationship 5 or 10 years later. However, as long as I am paying for it (directly), I would never consider these girls friends, and I certainly would not trust them.What is the criteria of "paying directly"?

Am I paying directly for the girl staying with me for six 24 hour days in 3 stretches over the course of 2 weeks, if I give her 1000 UAH for beauty salon services, and then she looks great, and feels great, and everything is just the way I like? How is it different from paying for girlfriend on Valentine's Day? Or paying monthly mortgage?

Likewise, who can I trust? Where is the fine line drawn between hourly girls haggling for taxi fee, and the student who I give the key to my apartment, while away meeting other girls at the restaurant next door or maybe even further away in the City?

I already made a decision for myself, and it is simple. Level of trust in the potential relationship is assessed during the first 10 minutes of getting to know each other. As we progress, minor misbehavior earns a verbal warning, second violation means eviction. Anything seriously inappropriate results in one of two options:

1. If this is our first meeting, then she will not be promoted to a candidate. Sometimes she will be GTFO, sometimes even in the process of being fucked (1 out of 15-20 cases).

2. If she already passed the casting and became LT partner, then she will get a rules of the game reminder, and most likely an eventual dismissal.

Similarly, 1 out of 20 becomes that coveted LT partner or member of the inner harem circle. Trusting those to substantial degree is a personal preference helping me to enjoy Kiev greatly. Realistic chance to find those young ladies is the main reason why I travel that far, and spend so much.

I did have multiple examples of a warm and friendly relationship deteriorating rapidly, but so far no legal consequences or huge financial impact.

Anyway, I am not advertising or promoting my life style. On the contrary, I recommend against following this risky approach, especially during short visits. I take chances with this "make belief" game, girls act along. Olga Kurylenko from Ukrainian town of Berdyansk, who became a gorgeous James Bond girl, is a fine example of how well Ukrainian ladies can act. And no, I certainly never met mademoiselle Kurylenko.

I believe that it's more beneficial for girls to score repeatedly during my 2-3-5 weeks visit and more upon my return from overseas, than make a copy of the apartment key, and clean out my belongings with their accomplices. I think marrying anybody anywhere in the world may result in much more substantial repercussions. Hence my "modus operandi".

Cheers to those on the ground, and please share your experiences, write reports.

[DramaFree11]

This is one of the most disappointing things about Kiev. You can't go to a club and watch beautiful women anymore. If you're over forty and single, they don't want you there unless you give them ridiculous money.Yes, this was when I New the party was over for me in Kiev. I would go out and the ratio girls to guys would be so bad, and poor quality of girls that it was not fun anymore.

Do disagree with one age and money are not that big of factor in Kiev. Has more to do with SupplyDemand, and for whatever reason Ukraine girls do not go out much.

[DramaFree11]

Here is a local article, indicating the prices that locals pay. These numbers and the prices advertised on online sites, are the only guide semi-pros have, at least until they try out the business a while and realize that they could be asking a lot more, and some people, particularly foreigners, will pay. That is why the semi-pros, or rather the occasional pros, the once or twice a week pros, single mothers, cashier girls, or students, can be happy with 1000-1500 UAH.

http://ukrainian-passport.com/blog/dissolute-kyiv-how-the-sex-industry-is-organized-in-the-capital/

" They start from 300, and rarely exceed 1,000 hryvnias per an hour in the ordinary joints.

At the same time you can find offers from 200 hryvnias of "individuals" on the special sites. The price largely depends on willingness of an owner or an individual girl but it is very difficult to determine the "quality of the service".

"One day, we covered two brothels; in one prices started from 300, in the other from 800 UAH / hour, but, frankly, here and there the prostitutes were the same the girls of average look and age", Sergey admitted.This is going be extremely poor quality. Girls have many options in Kiev to make money now, if they are truly 6 or above Just makes zero sense for them to work so cheap.

[PhotoSlider]

This is one of the most disappointing things about Kiev. You can't go to a club and watch beautiful women anymore. If you're over forty and single, they don't want you there unless you give them ridiculous money.What is the difference between sitting at the club or sitting at any place in a street or a window with a view, and sufficient traffic flow of beautiful Ukrainian women going back and forth?

Nobody told me to go away from the bench across the street from National University on Volodymyrska Street. I didn't pay, except maybe for a tea from a vendor nearby. I did strike a conversation with few hotties, and over time got a phone number from two of them despite being significantly over forty and single.

For a true monger Kiev clubs are a rip-off, and always been since River Palace has been closed. Why insist on Clubs being something that they are not? Are they any different in New York or London? I mean, yeah, perhaps you can enter, and then what? You'd be completely ignored. Well, I guess you, Riina, have a chance of watching beautiful Ukrainian girls in Northern suburbs of Chicago. Speaking for myself though, I cannot come nowhere close to what I accomplish in Kiev, and I never go to Chi or Caribbean or DFleurs, etc. Last time I attempted to do so was in the February of 2013. Exercise in futility. Flashy promise of ability to waste your money.

Why is it that Kozerog and Jymondor and other respected members of this Forum are successful and happy in Kiev, and they don't complain and they don't go to no clubs? Because going to Kiev clubs does not make any sense for us visitors.

You want to spend money at the clubs, so they exist. You would like that Kiev clubs operate differently? Then get enough funds, open your own club, and dictate your rules in there. Otherwise you are consumer with unrealistic expectations walking on shaky grounds in a completely foreign environment.

Even if the club or Rio or KEC girl pays attention to you, then what? 300 USD for few hours + extra expenses, while choosing which one is worthy of your attention and time?

Kiev doesn't exist to please you. Kiev exists so that you can find a great pleasure for yourself, and there many.

[Stefan 7]

Another article about small brothels (apartments) + map.

https://antikor.com.ua/articles/156134-hritsy_ljubvi_karta_zlachnyh_mest_kieva

[Raffzahn]

Interesting article on apartments (smart brothels).
http://ukrainian-passport.com/blog/dissolute-kyiv-how-the-sex-industry-is-organized-in-the-capital/Keep in mind that this article may be more than 2 years old.

[Spencee]

I may not be "dramafree", but I'll join you in talking to girls this July haha

I'm there in kyiv from July 17th thru Sept. 18th.Would like to meet up with people that know the area. New to Kiev a will be in Kiev from August 12-21st.

[PhotoSlider]

This is one of the most disappointing things about Kiev. You can't go to a club and watch beautiful women anymore. If you're over forty and single, they don't want you there unless you give them ridiculous money.Maybe I start to understand why Forum members insist on going to clubs in Kiev.

Where can one meet single women in his own home country, for example Western Europe, or US? Perhaps in bars and clubs. Those are segregated according to certain categories: age, education, music, and other preferences.

AFAIK meeting ladies 20-35 years younger at those clubs is impossible. All the party-goers are expected to target within their own age group. So if you are into late 30's, or even mid 40's, you can go to a club in your own country, except western society is firmly against age disparity in those clubs.

Maybe I am mistaken, but there are not too many clubs for middle aged women in Kiev. Those women simply do not go clubbing, as competition is fierce and they do not represent much value.

Yet male foreign visitors attempt to break their own rules in Kiev trying to interact with 20-25 years old ladies. But club management doesn't run a brothel, not even a strip club with lap dances. Management runs a club with music and drinks, and it imposes control to maximize revenue. Hence the table reservations for hundreds of dollars and lack of any sense for us middle aged mortals, while younger girls hunt online via Viber and Instagram.

[Stefan 7]

Another article about small brothels (apartments) + map.

https://antikor.com.ua/articles/156134-hritsy_ljubvi_karta_zlachnyh_mest_kieva"One of the famous brothels, legally working under a strip club, is located on Bessarabska Square. The owner of the place is a citizen of a foreign state called "Vasya". He controls about 30-40 brothels in Kiev out of 200. ".

[Stefan 7]

Even if the club or Rio or KEC girl pays attention to you, then what? 300 USD for few hours + extra expenses, while choosing which one is worthy of your attention and time?My friend was in Kiev last week, took a girl home from RIO, $300 for 3 hours.

He says she didn't stay for the whole 3 hours, also insisted in turning the lights off in the bedroom, made it very dark, he said this shit cost him him about $500 (taxi, drinks at the club, entrance fee, lapdances.) for covered BJ.

Best to stay away from these strip clubs.

[Kozerog]

Here is a local article, indicating the prices that locals pay. ... That is why the semi-pros, or rather the occasional pros, the once or twice a week pros, single mothers, cashier girls, or students, can be happy with 1000-1500 UAH.

http://ukrainian-passport.com/blog/dissolute-kyiv-how-the-sex-industry-is-organized-in-the-capital/

" They start from 300, and rarely exceed 1,000 hryvnias per an hour in the ordinary joints.

At the same time you can find offers from 200 hryvnias of "individuals" on the special sites...

"One day, we covered two brothels; in one prices started from 300, in the other from 800 UAH / hour...
Just because someone creates a website and puts up webpages written in journalist style language doesn't prove anything. This forum is the best guide to what foreigners can expect. If you want local perspective, read Russian / Ukrainian language review sites. For example,

https://www.kiev-x.in/viewtopic.php?id=16648

1000 uah per hour at a brothel last year (there's been inflation in local prices since then). He was happy with the girl but they scammed him by cutting the time short. Yes, even locals get scammed, not just us foreigners.

Some "semi-pros" may drop the price to zero if she likes you, and even throw in free food and drinks. Anything is possible once you start talking about true girlfriends. Anyway your 1000-1500 uah / hour does seem to be the going rate these days, from what I gather from this forum and the local review sites, not the 200 or 300 uah from that article.

[ShawMan74]

You guys are depressing me man! Eff it. I'm not going to sit my salty ass here in boring triple-digit heat police-state (united hates of ameriKa), but unless my only plans involve staring at college girls from a campus park bench while wearing a baggy trenchcoat with a false arm, an oversized hat, and sunglasses, it looks like I'm not going to have to bother packing my dick with me either. I'll just be sure to take a bottle of water to stay hydrated on my "outings".

Well, at least there's good chicken (allegedly), good weather (allegedly), and maybe I can take a rowing class (according to airbnb tourist suggestions)? I mean, I've got a non-refundable ticket man, at this point I'm kinda committed. I know they're offering tours of chernobyl, I'll take a selfie of me having a glass of water from their municipal tap, that should take care of one day. I think they also have a tour of the creative unlicensed home carpentry from the soviet era. Fine that'll get me through another day. I'll bring a good book, that'll take me through a week (I sublinguate).

Sooooy un perdedor. I'm a loser babyyyy, so why dontcha kill meeee.

[Stevie69]

Sorry.

By directly, I mean when there is actually money, a set amount, given in exchange for specific acts involving and related to sex.

However, we nearly always pay for sex, all the time. When you get married, you start paying for it the most.

Given that fact, it could be argued that the more you pay, the more trustworthy the women become. That is only because the women playing the long game (marriage) do not want to break your trust too soon, or they would be forced to cash out too soon. No, they want you to do well, hit your peak, and then cash out.


What is the criteria of "paying directly"?.

[Stevie69]

There are no proof here, this is not mathematics. These are all just opinions.

The point here was that locals, regular locals, not oligarchs, pay a lot less than foreign sex tourists. Locals pay up to 1000, and foreigners are lucky if they start at 1000.


Just because someone creates a website and puts up webpages written in journalist style language doesn't prove anything. This forum is the best guide to what foreigners can expect. If you want local perspective, read Russian / Ukrainian language review sites. For example,

https://www.kiev-x.in/viewtopic.php?id=16648

1000 uah per hour at a brothel last year (there's been inflation in local prices since then). He was happy with the girl but they scammed him by cutting the time short. Yes, even locals get scammed, not just us foreigners.

Some "semi-pros" may drop the price to zero if she likes you, and even throw in free food and drinks. Anything is possible once you start talking about true girlfriends. Anyway your 1000-1500 uah / hour does seem to be the going rate these days, from what I gather from this forum and the local review sites, not the 200 or 300 uah from that article.

[Tottem]

"One of the famous brothels, legally working under a strip club, is located on Bessarabska Square. The owner of the place is a citizen of a foreign state called "Vasya". He controls about 30-40 brothels in Kiev out of 200. ".The stripclub that is not mentioned is Darling Club. Darling Club has an online agency also "VipMolly". If you chat with support they can give directions to apartments where you can see the girls. In each are 8-10 girls. There are many brothels but "30-40" I do not know.

Club Darling has rooms at club where you can fuck all strippers for 2300-3000 UAH / hour. If you combine these two options I am sure you will have a good time. In Kiev-x is unbiased reports of the most senior member on Darling Club. He seems to be of the opinion that Darling Clubs Strippers are best value in Kiev now. So if you go there and not like what you see leave Kiev on next plane because I do not think you can find better value.

How did I find out all this? The contact number for Darling Club is also used for fake ads on all Kiev escort sites. Calling that number will lead you to same operator and apartments.

[Michi T]

I may not be "dramafree", but I'll join you in talking to girls this July haha

I'm there in kyiv from July 17th thru Sept. 18th.Too bad, I cannot extend (.

But let's meet on 18th afternoon, after my return from Dnipro.

Can you send me a PM?

[Stefan 7]

A cute blonde girl named Katya who was claimed to be 18 years old seemed to be my type of girl and I chose her. Price was 2400 uah per hour and we agreed on 4000 for two hours. She only does outcalls, and since I didn't want she to come to my apartment, I booked a hotel room in Premier Hotel Rus near Gulliver shopping centre and waited her on the ground floor..Why did you rent hotel room? Why not in your flat? Don't feel its safe to see her in your flat.

[PhotoSlider]

Sorry.

By directly, I mean when there is actually money, a set amount, given in exchange for specific acts involving and related to sex.

However, we nearly always pay for sex, all the time. When you get married, you start paying for it the most.Understood. Pre-negotiated amount of money for a period of time agreed upon.

Concur with your philosophy.

[PhotoSlider]

...In Kiev-x is unbiased reports of the most senior member on Darling Club. He seems to be of the opinion that Darling Clubs Strippers are best value in Kiev now. So if you go there and not like what you see leave Kiev on next plane because I do not think you can find better value...Confirm that. One of my current LT ladies used to dance at Darling, unbeknownst to me at the time, as my last strip club visit was in November of 2017 at Scarlett.

Agency consolidators delivered that young lady to me in September 2018, and we hit it off from the very start. She quit after a couple months stint. Explained to me the extortion methods management uses. Nothing new.

For Long Term she is certainly my top 10 over the last 5 years.

[ShawMan74]

Would like to meet up with people that know the area. New to Kiev a will be in Kiev from August 12-21st.Pm me your details. See ya there.

[Kozerog]

There are no proof here, this is not mathematics. These are all just opinions.

The point here was that locals, regular locals, not oligarchs, pay a lot less than foreign sex tourists. Locals pay up to 1000, and foreigners are lucky if they start at 1000.Who said anything about mathematical proofs? And none of these forums are supposed to be mere opinions. We are supposed to be exchanging actual experiences and / or extrapolating from actual experiences to get some realistic pricing information.

It's not just an academic exercise. Suppose someone reads that article or your post and draws the false conclusion that quality independent girls are available for 200 uah off Mamba, so that's what he suggests to a girl there. Probably she blocks him permanently as a timewaster. Now if the guy has unlimited time and unlimited quality prospects, no big deal. He just tries again and again and eventually figures out he has to offer more. But guys with limited time and limited quality prospects can't afford to screw around like that. They need to make a reasonable offer up front whenever they find a quality prospect. The 1000-1500 uah / hour you suggested is a reasonable first offer for some true independents, though not all.

Same deal with brothels. 300 uah / hour, like that article mentioned, is not what locals pay for quality girls, trust me. More like 1000, of which the girl gets 500 uah / hour. I don't use brothels myself, however I suggested to another member here to ask for help from taxi drivers on Khreschatyk. Now suppose he asks such a taxi driver to take him to a 300 uah / hour brothel. Taxi driver will tell him to get lost, then laugh about him to the other taxi drivers and soon no one will want to bother with him. This is what happens when you have a completely unrealistic view of prices.

And you missed an important point I made, which is that the locals get jerked around just as badly as or even worse than us foreigners. As I understand, you (Steve69) are not too old, not bad looking or bad manners, and American. At the back of the mind of many girls might be the idea of playing the long game with you (marriage), whereas no such dream with regular (non oligarch) locals, so she reduces prices and improves service for you versus locals. Think about that.

Here's a typical local shit show repor from April this year:

https://www.kiev-x.in/viewtopic.php?id=18361

Photo fake, "girl" about 40 rather than 30 advertised, face sagging, can't understand her on the phone (and he's a native speaker!) because she had a cold, mediocre blowjob because she had that cold and so had to stop and blow her nose every so often, 1000 uah for sex plus 400 uah for that mediocre BBBJ, final conclusion: not recommended.

Too bad that Kiev-x site is in Russian and doesn't translate well because of all the slang. Guys here could learn a lot from reading those reports from locals.

[Kozerog]

https://kiev-x.in/viewtopic.php?id=18538

23 yo, fat, wart-covered, sagging tits, semi-retarded, overall sex appeal 1 minus on scale of 1-5 (1 lowest). Barely able to maintain erection during covered blow job but somehow managed to come. Thought about killing himself while washing up on bathroom. Ran out of apartment in horror and didn't stop running for a long time. Feels psychologically traumatized from having to re-live experience while writing report. But hey, only 500 uah for that half hour covered blowjob! Report is from two weeks ago, so price surely hasn't increased since then for locals,. Maybe foreigners can get the same deal.

More seriously, that https://vipmolly.net/ site sounds like a possible replacement for Gia, now that KEC has been discredited by several reports on this forum. Someone should try them.

Also, I can't edit my post just prior to this one, but I meant to write that locals typically pay at least 1000 uah / hour in brothels, and more for premium quality young girls, like the photos at that vipmolly site (photos, I reiterate, since who knows what those girls are like in reality). 1000 is a minimum, in other words, even for locals.

[DramaFree11]

https://kiev-x.in/viewtopic.php?id=18538

23 yo, fat, wart-covered, sagging tits, semi-retarded, overall sex appeal 1 minus on scale of 1-5 (1 lowest). Barely able to maintain erection during covered blow job but somehow managed to come. Thought about killing himself while washing up on bathroom. Ran out of apartment in horror and didn't stop running for a long time. Feels psychologically traumatized from having to re-live experience while writing report. But hey, only 500 uah for that half hour covered blowjob! Report is from two weeks ago, so price surely hasn't increased since then for locals,. Maybe foreigners can get the same deal.

More seriously, that https://vipmolly.net/ site sounds like a possible replacement for Gia, now that KEC has been discredited by several reports on this forum. Someone should try them.

Also, I can't edit my post just prior to this one, but I meant to write that locals typically pay at least 1000 uah / hour in brothels, and more for premium quality young girls, like the photos at that vipmolly site (photos, I reiterate, since who knows what those girls are like in reality). 1000 is a minimum, in other words, even for locals.Guys are paying between $75-150, some much more.

Of course locals get a discount, but it's not significant. As mentioned before girls that are even halfway attractive have many options to make money in Kiev and many times does not even involve sex, just companionship or simply writing letters.

[DramaFree11]

The stripclub that is not mentioned is Darling Club. Darling Club has an online agency also "VipMolly". If you chat with support they can give directions to apartments where you can see the girls. In each are 8-10 girls. There are many brothels but "30-40" I do not know.

Club Darling has rooms at club where you can fuck all strippers for 2300-3000 UAH / hour. If you combine these two options I am sure you will have a good time. In Kiev-x is unbiased reports of the most senior member on Darling Club. He seems to be of the opinion that Darling Clubs Strippers are best value in Kiev now. So if you go there and not like what you see leave Kiev on next plane because I do not think you can find better value.

How did I find out all this? The contact number for Darling Club is also used for fake ads on all Kiev escort sites. Calling that number will lead you to same operator and apartments.This is Fake, just like the rest of these sites. You guys keep looking for the Golden Ticket in Kiev and it simply not there. Hard work, a lot of time and money, even after all that you are likely to end up with a 5 or 6.