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the game
I've also come to grudgingly expect it from Ukraine (or Russia for that matter, but surprisingly much less so) and adjust accordingly.
One agency that did work well for me was kievlet.com, except for the fucking driver who was hitting on my girlfriend while taking us to the airport assuming I didnt understand him speaking Russian. He looked a bit surprised when he was comically holding out his hand for a tip and I told him off for his insolence. I'm sure he'll remember me, so I guess I have to find another agency now... :)
But dont expect things to change. As long as Ukraine has girls, we'll keep going there. This kind of through and through corruption is also the reason why Ukraine is going to be a third world country with a second world facade for a long long time.
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Hiya guy..after reading your report I know you are probably tweakin so I don't want to add any fuel to the fire..but..What the heck are you doing going to JOSS? Why leave the center to go to a 2nd rate club unless you are staying at the hotel that is in the complex?
And to all those in an uproar about being ripped off by apartment agencies, escort agencies and every other agency in the book - I personally hope it continues and gets worst. It will drive all the tourist away and make things better for me. ;) Cruiser D predicts tough times ahead for Ukraine. Look for it to start this summer and snowball over the fall and winter - and I'll be there; Keeping all the hot girls company.
[QUOTE=Bandit7]landed 22-March, cleared customs in about 15 minutes and went to meet my driver from ua-apartments who was no
[/QUOTE]
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joss
Cruiser the believe me I when I say I quite like it, use to stop at the adria in the complex on and of for four years, but more importantaly never got food poisoning there! but its not the hotel on the left bank I was reporting about. And your right I am still tweaking! and believe me I am far more streetwise even in kiev than many people on the board might want to give me credit for. I did not rollover for julia and reported what happened so that others who go have an idea what they are up against! even if it makes me look a little foolish. I would love to go moda, milenium, carribean etc but have never done so through lack of a wingman! lara warned me against arena because of the horendous charges for the tables. Knowledge is power and even though I seem to post my travel plans nobody seems to be there when I am. So I end up in a routine at night where I use what I know and that is joss and rp, please feel free to broaden my horizons with the famous cruiser the guided tour! will be there in may and July 4 days each time and so on. I know you go rp on Wednesday there were 2 bonde twins working! you know anything about them?
Cheers,
Bandit7
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ukeB... I'm glad that I read your first post rather than just the most recent one... I was limbering up my fingers to chastise you for your "generalization", but instead I will thank you for your kind words. Also, a tip of the hat to doc, as usual!
In fact, the poor customer service is an opportunity for everyone... Just as I think that Moscow Star raised the bar while I was there, even though it may have edged downward in the past year, I think that my new venture will raise the bar not only in Odessa but even in Kiev when customers begin to demand things that they have seen in ODS and realize that shitty service and lousy equpped apartments are not, by definition, what someone can expect in the FSU!
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Having been here for more than ten years, I guess I am just tired and fed up with all the promise and potential just going down your typical stinking Ukrainian toilet.
Cruiser, I have to agree with you that things will get worse. I am not sure if they can ever get better. While I had no great expectations about Yushchenko, he managed to make things a near disaster in seemingly record time. If he really thinks that Ukraine can join the EU during his likely one term in office, he really is an idiot who should be put away in some insane asylum and not running the country.
Perhaps this country would be better off being run by Yanukovich and his criminal mob. The eastern part of Ukraine is run by him and we know what a shithole it is and it will not get any better.
It is not just apartment agencies, escorts agencies, hotels and other businesses catering to tourists that are a problem, it is everything. The supermarkets are overpriced and sell "podelka" or fake goods. The biggest rip-off there is liquor. Most of it is watered down wines, counterfeit Western liquors and anything else these thieves can get away with, which they do. There is an undercurrent element of crime and thievery in almost every company, in almost every business. Unfortunately, that has been a part of culture and society here for so long that it probably won't change. We who come from elsewhere just have to be aware of it and adjust accordingly.
That is not to say that someone like CA Traveler can't have an impact. I hope he does and I hope his honest services for honest prices model does make an impact here. I wish him every success but Odessa, the legendary home of Russian/Ukrainian crime (and comedy) is a tough place to start, worse in most respects concerning corruption and mafias than Moscow.
Doc, you are also right. The only reason to come here is for the girls. Nothing else here is worth it.
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Funny you should mention counterfeit stuff Uke. I remember walking through Metrograd looking for some clubbing duds for Barton Junk. The 'Prada' suits looked like they had been sewn together by a three year old. I enjoy going to Kiev but would not trust anything at face value.
Yushchenko is as big a crook as Yanukovich, so is Goldilocks. I don't know what the people were thinking electing him as some kind of reformer. He was neck deep and an ex crony of the prior administration but then again, they didn’t have much choice. At least the people laid the groundwork for something. Unless they become as disillusioned as the Slavs to the north.
And geez, what's up with Ukrainian toilets? Why do I have to wipe my toilets ass after I wipe my own?
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Isg
Please, guys,
Lets not waist anothers time with blabla about apartments. Everything has been said about every agency there is, and there is always good and bad. And who gives a shit about the toilets.
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Wally,
If as you have said you have been here in Kiev every month since July 2005, that means your overall contribution to the forum has been an almost complete lack of sharing in looking over your 8 posts.
Perhaps if you contributed your experiences (if any) on a regular basis then perhaps we can take you somewhat more seriously.
Also, if you don't get it, and it seems you do not, this forum while about sex also allows us to speak up on issues related to life here and how we can avoid being ripped off taken advantage of in one way or another in a country and culture many do not know. If someone is spending two days on apartment issues or related rip offs and not playing with the ladies, then we need to know the criminals involved and make public their misdeeds.
If you want to be conned, that is your business, good luck. You do not have to read these posts so don't tell us what to say or not say until you have contributed substantially.
When and if you do contribute in a more substantial manner you will understand that even posts not related to sex are valuable information to all. See Spanishboy 29's comments below, a direct rebuttal to your useless ramblings.
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Bandit, the table charge at Arena is $200 which goes to whatever you order. If you order $200 or more you really don't lose anything. If it is a little steep go with 1 or 2 other guys. I prefer to go with 2 or 3 girls. ;)
A less pricey alternative to Arena is 112, which is across the courtyard from Arena. I haven't been to Orangenia yet so I can't comment on it. I didn't bother going to D&G because I wasn't too fond of the club that was there before. There was a lot of hype to PaTiPa and when I went I wasn't impressed. But I can see why people would like it - big stage - huge dance floor. I didn't make it to Sound Planet but my friends had good things to say about it. Went to Caribbean once while I was there this trip, I always enjoy it and the two girls who I took liked it too - it was there first time there.
I got a bad oyster at one of the sushi places and I wasn't able to eat sushi the rest of that trip. I still feel a little queasy thinking about it. But if you like JOSS keep going; maybe I'll join you there. ;)
[QUOTE=Bandit7]Cruiser the believe me I when I say I quite like it, use to stop at the adria in the complex on and of for four years,
(stuff deleted)
Cheers,
Bandit7[/QUOTE]
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Telling it like it is
Uke,
I sensed a certain amount of anger in your report as I read through it and after almost 6 years in Kiev myself I can understand why. Every newcomer to the Ukraine site should read that report before they start moving around or doing business in Kiev.
One of the things I first noticed when I started working here was that if a Ukrainian is given the responsibility of purchasing something for the company they will soon find a way to inflate the invoice, usually by coming to an arrangement with the vendor. I have come up against this problem time and time again in the last 6 years, and what really intrigued me was the fact that many of the people doing it were very competent well educated employees.
Finally I got the opportunity to try to get inside the Ukrainian mentality and find out where they were coming from. This happened the night I bumped into an ex-employee in the Korona Bar. We had always got along very well and proceeded to get drunk together, him more than me, finally I seized the moment and asked him why there was always this problem with inflated invoices etc. He looked at me and smiled and said ' You see my friend, in Western Europe you guys see that as stealing, here we see it as just another shrewd business deal'
I have the feeling that this was the truest thing I have ever been told in Kiev.
[QUOTE=Uke Boy]One of the good things about WSG is that you can express your opinions and ideas not just about sex but about life in a particular country. The bad thing is that while I and many others have expressed less than sterling opinions of life and business in Ukraine over and over again in all to many posts, many of you still come here expecting things as they are in Western Europe, the US or in other advanced countries.
Don't any of you guys who complain about the rip-offs ever read beyond the first page of the forum before you get here???? If not, I cannot be too sympathetic with your plight.
Now get this right, guys, and I AM shouting, Jackson, for effect...
THE LOCALS CARE ONLY ABOUT HOW THEY CAN RIP YOU OFF, IN WHOLE OR IN PART. THEY ARE DISHONEST, THEY ARE THIEVES AND THEY ARE PROUD OF IT ONCE THEY ROB FROM YOU!
They do not know and do not care about "win-win," they only know about "win-lose," and naturally it is always better that YOU lose.
I have been here too long and seen too much here not to finally get it through my thick skull that this is the way they not only work with foreigners but also with locals. It has nothing to do with your being from abroad, it has everything to do with local culture. Under the czars, under the commissars, it was dog eat dog and survive as best you can. Today, nothing has changed and may even be worse.
Be it apartments, ladies, and anything else, trust no one here unless it is someone like CA Traveler, who is not a local and has a proven track record. However, he is in Odessa and not in Kiev.
In Kiev and throughout Ukraine, be very, very careful.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Uke Boy]Having been here for more than ten years, I guess I am just tired and fed up with all the promise and potential just going down your typical stinking Ukrainian toilet.
Cruiser, I have to agree with you that things will get worse. I am not sure if they can ever get better. [/QUOTE]
Uke! One can feel your frustration. I’ve only been visiting Ukraine for a few years and whilst a regular visitor I am rarely there for more than a few days, which is as much as I can hack from a business perspective. I’ve recently decided to start dissolving my business interests in Ukraine, simply as the benefits (both purely monetary and the obvious fringe benefits of visiting there regularly) have become increasingly outweighed by the overwhelming corruption at every level and the shocking service ethos.
With that said, I thing one has to put the Ukrainian situation into perspective. This is a country which is not even 20 years old and, since its independence, has spent most of its life under heavy Russian influence; endemic corruption permeates every section of society. With this background, the idea that the country could change overnight – or even within a year of the Orange Revolution – was always over-optimistic. However I am more optimistic than you (which is easier as I don’t have to live there) and believe that Ukraine is taking small and vital steps towards changing – I mean an honest and fair election! That’s unbelievable! Major change though will take time - I think it could 20 years+ before one sees the beginning of genuine change, both in terms of honesty in business, providing a basic level of service and addressing some of the crushing poverty that still exists for many.
I think a lot of the comments on the board over the last page or so are hugely important – if you are not used to EE in general, Kiev is a tough visit. Anyone who indicates otherwise is ,IMHO, being misleading. The game is heavily stacked in favour of suppliers (apartments, taxis, girls) who are far more prepared and ready for the new traveller than the new visitor is for them. Most newbies arrive with a spirit of happy adventure and a view that the rules of tourism (and low budget mongering that exist in most other countries will exist in Ukraine – “It can’t be that bad – I mean they’re trying to attract more tourists”. They simply aren’t prepared for the ruthless rip-off culture they are just about to encounter. Especially in Kiev you just meet person after person whose first response to you is “I must make as much money as I can from this one person. I don’t know when my next opportunity to screw a tourist will come along.” This goes all the way through to an increasing number of the girls, from the true pros (higher prices, bad service) all the way the through to non-pros at places like 112, who know how easy it is to have a cheap evening out getting drinks bought all night for them without any intention of going home with anyone and girls on dating site. I am actually not damning all involved – if people are so willing to throw money at you, it’s hard to refuse. People who come here and put up with being ripped off and overpay, have to take some responsibility for the situation.
From a personal perspective though, I still love the place. In fact the more challenging the game becomes, the more addicted I become - I like the challenge and, to be honest, I like the game.
If you want things on a plate, I would avoid Kiev like the plague. If you want a challenge, I think it’s as much fun as anyone can handle.
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Snowy, girls in the west expect a lot (drinks, dinner, et al) without having to put out. Not that I am saying they should or should not but this is where the girls in Kiev and EE got that from (us westerners - I have met the enemy and he is us).
Last years elections were a joke on the people of the Ukraine. They thought they were getting change. The only things that change is a new set of crooks were installed. Now it looks like a third set of thiefs are going to have their hand at it. What basic services and crushing poverty were addressed? Anyone who has traveled about Ukraine knows how quickly things fall to crap once you get outside the center of major metro areas. The amount of new construction going on in Kiev is impressive. But there is a noticeable lack of that in any other Ukrainian city I visited.
In Kiev things are served on a plate - you are just being over charged.
Tremayne, about 20 years ago I had a discussion with someone over the interchangeability of the terms 'thief' and 'shrewd businessman'. He said to never get the two confused. If you are a thief people are eventually going to stop doing business with you, as the Ukraine is finding out. The only reason why we (the west) deal with Russia is oil, that is it. The Ukraine has no such luxury. The best they can do is play a weak hand of geo politics.
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[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Last years elections were a joke on the people of the Ukraine. They thought they were getting change. The only things that change is a new set of crooks were installed. Now it looks like a third set of thiefs are going to have their hand at it. What basic services and crushing poverty were addressed? [/QUOTE]
None. As I said, I think it will take 20 years+ to see changes. None of this means that the events of the last 18 months haven't been hugely important. You can judge the government on their performance (and it's between dire), but you can't begin to judge the impact of the revolution. If in 10 years, Ukraine finally begins to gets new leaders, new parties or a new ethos which begins to address the poverty and endemic corruption it will in part be down to the path the country has started down in recent months (even if the contribution is to fuel disappointment with politicians and their inability to deliver change).
In my view, expectations have been altered forever and therefore the elections last year weren't a joke, but the initial part of a process.
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Snowy,
While there have been changes here and there in the political consciousness of many individuals, it really has not taken any root overall in society as a whole. That is not to say that it won't. However, there were similar hopes in Moscow during the mid-90s when I traveled there frequently, and look what happened, so-called "managed democracy" but more like quasi-dictatorship.
It can happen here as well, and almost did with a Yanukovich near-win. He and his mafia still won a third of the vote this week and might have had more had there been a greater voter turn-out. Don't count out any return of one-man or one party rule here. Lukashenko in Belarus is the poster child for this type of misrule.
Yushchenko is also very corrupt. This recent Russian-Ukrainian gas deal has Yushchenko's brother as one of the organizers. In a murky deal such as this you cannot tell me that Yushchenko doesn't know all the details and approved what is obviously financially beneficial to himself personally? He will lay on some gilding on the budding democratic Ukrainian structure but underneath, despite his words, his actions show it is the same corrupt lousy structure.
Bottom line is that Yushchenko and his crooks will be gentle when they screw the people unlike Yanukovich who would give everyone a hard ass fucking to bring it back on topic for our friend Wally.
Cruiser is right. A year later and nothing has changed, nothing has improved. I am not sure it has slid backwards but no improvement is a recipe for disaster. Stagnation in politics always brings on unexpected change and many times the result is an unpleasant dictatorship that the people actually bring on themselves.
Snowy, I fully understand why you are getting out of business here - been there, done that. From what I hear more and more foreign investors are moving out due to the issues we have touched upon, corruption in all spheres of life actually getting worse under the so-called reformer Yushchenko and the improved dealings of Ukrainian "shrewd" businessman. I think you now understand that these "businessmen" know only short-term gains. They care nothing about long-term investments since nothing here has ever been long-term such as we have in the USA or UK or in Europe. Everything can be taken away from them tomorrow and so that is why they must steal from you and everyone else today.
To go back on topic, the sun is out, it has warmed up nicely and the ladies are now out in much less clothing! Short skirts and long lovely legs have returned to the streets of Kiev. That's enough for now, I am off to enjoy a long-hidden feast for the eyes!
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Need advices...
Hi! Guys,
I need some expertises from expert guys about ukrainian gals, I'm corresponding with that young and beautiful ukrainian gal....only few letters, she wants me to come to visit her in Kiev....of course I guess that she expects that I will propose her to visit me instead....that's what I did coz I couldn't free myself and I will be more in my element here.....as you surely guessed the air ticket is for my pocket.....so she sent to me her full coordinates plus a copy of her passport....my question is; is there any potential funny trick? Is it worthy to bring her here (knowing the ticket cost me US$1000)...she was pretty easy to accept my invitation that's why I'm wondering whether it's sincere or tricky....
Thks in advance
Eros