LOL. So it's the Goldilocks Fairy Tale now.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2859535]You're a true believer Tooms. Nobody is arguing that government shouldn't provide stimulus during recessions. The problem was the quantity and the timing. By the time Democrats sent out free Biden money in March, 2021, we were already out of recession and GDP was about back to pre-COVID levels. That's also when Democrats passed the $1. 9 trillion American Rescue Plan. It was 9% of GDP! Larry Summers, prominent Democratic Party economist, said the stimulus was three times the output shortfall, presumably meaning three times the amount by which GDP was short of what it would have been without COVID. Jason Furman, another prominent Democratic Party economist, more or less agreed with him.
The federal debt held by the public is headed towards dangerous levels, considering the government has to pay around 5% per annum to borrow now, instead of 1% or 2% before. Interest payments on the federal debt will consume around 5% of GDP at current interest rates!
Yes, Republicans were complicit. George W. Bush's war in Iraq and the Republicans failure to hold back spending when they controlled the government in 2017 and 2018 illustrate that. But Biden and Democrats took reckless spending to a whole new level, legislating over $5 trillion in unfunded spending in 2021 and 2022, after we'd already recovered from the COVID induced recession. Not the Trump induced recession, as you argue.
And yes, GDP growth during the Biden Administration was higher than it would have been without the profligate spending. But like for our friends who load up on debt to support an extravagant lifestyle, the ending won't be pretty. It may take a while, and you may be dead by then, but a reckoning is coming.[/QUOTE]Oh I see. Well, the next time an incoming Repub is handed a historic, unprecedented economic disaster from an outgoing Dem that only a wannabe Repub Hoover numbskull would sit back and rely on to resolve itself in a straight line, I am sure he will show all of us how to provide the just right, not too hot and not too cold temperature of porridge to keep the Great Recovery no Repub has ever produced from the Great Economic Disaster no Dem has ever produced going just right for the next few years.
But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for even 1 factor in that impossible scenario to ever come about.
Maybe you and Larry can write a sweet little Fairy Tale about such a thing and close it with that "And they all lived happily ever after" ending you imagine would ever have been the case this time.
The Trillion dollar coin?
[QUOTE=EihTooms;2859585 ][b]LOL. So it's the Goldilocks Fairy Tale now. [/b]
Oh I see. Well, the next time an incoming Repub is handed a historic, unprecedented economic disaster from an outgoing Dem that only a wannabe Repub Hoover numbskull would sit back and rely on to resolve itself in a straight line, I am sure he will show all of us how to provide the just right, not too hot and not too cold temperature of porridge to keep the Great Recovery no Repub has ever produced from the Great Economic Disaster no Dem has ever produced going just right for the next few years.
But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for even 1 factor in that impossible scenario to ever come about.
Maybe you and Larry can write a sweet little Fairy Tale about such a thing and close it with that "And they all lived happily ever after" ending you imagine would ever have been the case this time. [/QUOTE] Now that was funny, but so true! And I do so enjoy a good "Fairy Tale". If (when) it fails, perhaps we can use it as a "Cautionary Tale/Fable"?
Speaking of "fairy tales", what ever happened to the one about the [b]"One (1) Trillion dollar coin"[/b] (Repubs love to mint in their heads), that could simply payoff the federal debt?
I seem to hear this one, every time a Repub President takes office and then proceeds to astronomically run up the federal debt, on their way to yet another Repub recession, and every Repub and their dog, seems to think that this mystical coin is the answer.
Any Repub economists (or anyone really), care to explain how this would work?
Repub Fairy Tales are dangerous, not fun.
[QUOTE=Spidy;2859614]Now that was funny, but so true! And I do so enjoy a good "Fairy Tale". If (when) it fails, perhaps we can use it as a "Cautionary Tale/Fable"?
Speaking of "fairy tales", what ever happened to the one about the [b]"One (1) Trillion dollar coin"[/b] (Repubs love to mint in their heads), that could simply payoff the federal debt?
I seem to hear this one, every time a Repub President takes office and then proceeds to astronomically run up the federal debt, on their way to yet another Repub recession, and every Repub and their dog, seems to think that this mystical coin is the answer.
Any Repub economists (or anyone really), care to explain how this would work?[/QUOTE]They are all Repub Fairy Tales. Their entire Supply-Side / Trickle-Down, Little or No Attention to Regulations = Superior Economic Success crap is a total Repub Fairy Tale. The lazy MSM spin that "Carter ruined the economy and Reagan saved it" crap is a total Repub Fairy Tale.
We know what happens when the classic Repub Do Nothingness or Repub Do The Exact Wrong Thing agenda is followed.
We got the Great Repub Crash and Depression in the late 1920's / early 1930's, Eisenhower's 3, count 'them, 3 recessions in just eight years, Nixon / Ford's practically no growth and jobs creation at all, Reagan's Great Repub Recession and whopping ten consecutive months of 10%+ Unemployment Rates, GHW Bush's horrific jobs creation record. GW Bush's Great Repub Recession and even more horrific jobs creation record, Trump's historic mass murders and Global Supply-Chain destruction disaster thanks to his criminal negligence, ignoring all expert warnings and year long lies to convert a likely manageable regional endemic into the Trump's Pandemic it became to produce negative jobs creation.
Thar was after 4 miserable Trump Stewardshop years and even after his coasting on the terrific Obama-Biden economic trajectories handed to him in his first year came to an end when he passed that $1. 5 Trillion net cost every 10 years into infinity legislation that was already producing fewer jobs with it than without it.
So what was Larry Summers' brilliant and admittedly often dead wrong ideas for what Biden and the Dems were supposed to do about still another historic, unprecedented Repub Economic Disaster handed to a Dem to fix until, oh, May, June or July 2021 when we would get the final GDP numbers for "March" of that one year?
Repub-style Know Nothing Do Nothing or Do The Wrong Thing?
Go fishing, play golf, ride ponies, clear brush down at the ranch?
And how would pro-Repub MSM have reacted to that after doing whatever they could to blame Biden and the Dems for the Repub Economic Disaster they inherited, as usual?
What frame of mind would that have put into business and jobs creation domestically and around the world?
Worse, let's say Summers' and his fellow pro Repub Bothsiders and outright Wingers got their Fairy Tale wish and whatever Biden and the Dems put into the system for this particular historic and unprecedented Great Repub Policy and Stewardship Disaster turned out to be exactly right to the dollar.
For its one moment in time, that is.
Then what happens if there is a resurgence of a new and widely spread variation of Trump's Pandemic virus after that "And they all lived happily ever after" Repub Fairy Tale ending?
Guess what, that happened. No one knew how bad it would be or if it would be even worse that the first Trump's Pandemic virus.
Oh and how about if, say, some Loon like Putin somehow mysteriously got privy to accurate, in writing USA Intel from, say, some Repub former potus Loon in 2021 and decided the following year was the right time for an exceedingly stupid invasion of Ukraine, thereby produce the crippling of an oil Supply-Chain for the entire Globe to enjoy?
And as long as we're on that topic, how about if the powers that be somehow mysteriously also got privy to some of that stolen USA Intel and decided the time was right to launch a terrorist attack on Israel and thereby add another crippling effect to the world's oil Supply-Chain business reliance.
Just sayin'.
Biden and the Dems had one 2 year window of opportunity to do whatever might be necessary to pull us and much of the world out of that historic and unprecedented Great Repub Economic Disaster.
Given the pattern for a new POTUS' Party's prospects in its first midterm election there would be no going back to the well after November 2022 if, perchance, that Fairy Tale "just right" porridge for its moment in time back in early 2021 or, God forbid, "too cold" too little porridge failed to meet even that moment.
LOL. Even though that midterm only saw a Pink Tinkle by hook and by crook majority in the House, does anyone of sane mind think for one minute those handful of Repub loons would help America by adding a tad more to the post-Repub Disaster stimulus after those unpredictable.
Events came about rather than do everything in their power to Crash the USA economy all over again?
Now, we're really telling impossible Fairy Tales if you believe such a thing.
God bless Biden and the Dems for being smart enough, brave enough and patriotic enough to put MORE into the system to deal. With the latest historic, unprecedented Great Repub Disaster than was merely necessary to put a bandaid on it in mid 2021, willing to shoulder all the heavy lifting and assume all the political risk to do as much as possible on the obvious awareness that our perpetual Repub Party problems had not been solved and had not gone away on January 20,2021 never to return.
It was one of your beloved Third Party candidate's ideas, not a Democratic Part idea.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2859788]Well Spidy, if you're a Democrat, that's one you need to explain. It was Democrat Economist's Paul Krugman's idea. His brilliant plan, adopted by some Congressional Democrats, was to to use the trillion dollar coin as a way to avoid negotiating with Republicans over an increase in the debt-ceiling limit. Rashida Tlaib, Democratic Congresswoman, resuscitated the idea in 2020 as a way to pay $2,000 a month to every man, woman and child resident in America during COVID, and $1,000 a month thereafter.
This sounds a lot like Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), a favorite of progressives that's worked so well in places like Venezuela and Zimbabwe, where government just prints new money to fund spending, while ignoring the effect on deficits and the national debt. Apparently the idea appeals to you and Tooms as well, as you have no fear of deficits and debt. Or believe Joe Biden's crock that we can pay for everything he wants, and only have to raise taxes on households making more than $400,000 per year.[/QUOTE]The first politics-related proposal of the idea came from one of your beloved Third Party candidates, Bo Gritz, back in 1992.
And, as one might expect, Gritz' Populist Party agenda sure sounds a whole lot more like a Repub or a self-delusional pro-Repub "Bothdider" than anything remotely like The Democratic Party:
[B]Bo Gritz[/B]
[URL]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Gritz[/URL]
[QUOTE]In the 1992 election, after failing to secure the U.S. Taxpayers' Party's nomination, Gritz ran for President of the United States, again under the Populist Party banner. His campaign slogan was "God, Guns and Gritz", and he published a political manifesto titled "The Bill of Gritz" (a play on his last name rhyming with "rights"). He advocated for staunch opposition to what he termed "global government" and the "New World Order", called for an end to all foreign aid, and proposed the abolition of the federal income tax and the Federal Reserve System. During the campaign, Gritz openly declared the United States to be a "Christian Nation", asserting that the country's legal statutes "should reflect unashamed acceptance of Almighty God and His Laws."
.....
[B]As part of his campaign, Gritz proposed an idea to pay off the National debt by minting a coin at the Treasury and sending it to the Federal Reserve, a concept that predates the 2012 trillion-dollar coin idea.[/b] Among other proposals, the "Bill of Gritz" called for the complete closure of the border with Mexico, and the dissolution of the Federal Reserve.[/QUOTE]The only connection to the idea with Paul Krugman that I have yet found was when he was asked if such an idea was legal.
Obviously, his being asked about it would strongly suggest he did not come up with the idea himself. Along with other economists, he responded that it would indeed be legal to do such a thing. Later, he wrote an opinion piece proposing that having such a coin on hand might not be a bad idea in order to fend off the even worse idea by Repubs to continually drive up the debt with nothing positive to show for it then threaten to Dine and Dash on their bill like the Deadbeats they are and allow the USA Government to default on their debt.
The first politician to propose it was a pro-Repub Bothsider / Neithersider
[QUOTE=Spidy;2859862]Tiny 12, Where did you get those twisted facts about Krugman, being the progenitor of the coin idea?
Yes, junior congresswoman, Tlaib is still learning the ropes and won't (hopefully) further pose such non-serious Repub ideas. But, her heart was in the right place.
Yes, on October 1st, 2021, Mr. Krugman had suggested that to Biden, but the one (1) trillion dollar coin idea, existed some decades before Krugman's suggestion, as the Huff Post, reports in it's article below.
So although both Dems and Repubs, agree minting the coin isn't a serious idea, I can't shake the feeling and still think I remember this being an idea of Republican making. Or perhaps, I just heard it as GOP/Repub folklore?
Tiny 12, since you seem to be in the mood for stories, here's one I'd like to think we could add to GOP folklore? I called it, "GOP Lord of the Coins":
I would like to think, some might even say, it the one trillion dollar coin was forged by the lords of dark-money Repub think-tanks, deep in the "GOP/Repub Mountains of Mordor". Where upon the finishing of its making, the GOP faithful, all cried out to the skies above, "One coin to rule all the debt!"..kkkk![/QUOTE]Spidy, you are closer to being right about that than is Tiny.
Neither a Dem nor Paul Krugman came up with the idea.
It was Bo Gritz in 1992, a Third Party candidate Tiny would have loved given his Third Party affiliation while maintaining a demonstrably pro Repub stance and agenda:
[URL]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Gritz[/URL]