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To Joe:
Thanks! Sounds as if ILY is Thai shorthand for a certain sort of strategic alliance that, like the best alliances, is of benefit to both sides. Some cultures, including I believe the Judaism of Jesus' day, have the institution of very short-term "marriage", which is what this sounds like; Catholic marriage is a much longer-term strategic alliance, whereas other Western marriage falls somewhere in the middle. However, the Western ILY doesn't really tell us much about the terms of the deal, does it?
Going back to the Missourian approach, I forgot to mention that I can say ILY unsolicited -- though I hardly ever do -- but being asked to say it freezes my screen.
You're using Mallory on the wrong guy, Joe: although I've never been any higher than 3770 metres, I always considered his to be the perfect answer to the question; and he had a good death.....
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my participation as a prostitute client has changed me alot. it's helped me overcome sexual shame and perceive women as sexual beings also. in contemplating criminalization and the harm it brings to people who are simply trying to meet their own needs, i can only know bafflement and feel rage for those who advocate it. desire for godlike power to be able to destroy them who i perceive as inhuman and unspeakably vicious and evil. i'll be going to my grave alienated from the mainstream of humanity, and this particular issue as much or more than any other explains why. those who think sex is "dirty" and sexual freedom immoral are in my mind an abomination, and i trust that eventually nature will rid herself of humanity if humanity persists in condemning itself for it's own sexuality.
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And your reports and advice on all this are where, exactly? Lots of folks in this thread are frequent contributors elsewhere in the forum. People having a philosophical discussion here in no way negatively impacts your desire to pay to get laid.
VT -- unfortunately, whether sex is seen as dirty or not, we're far more likely to procreate our way into oblivion than any other way, I think.
But your post does bring up a big issue -- in this age when sex education is now available in schools (unlike when I grew up) and there's far more information available, where is the institution or process that talks about the healthy aspects of sex? We all know that the two major causes of marital breakups are sex and money, but with the exception of various self-help books and the occasional Doctor Ruth column there's still a dearth of discussion about healthy sex drives or relationships. And, from what I can tell, that's pretty much true cross-culturally, and cross-gender. Comments?
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i’m totally with terry about punting being a cure for sexual shame, but despite the possibility that we have suffered from the same kind of damage, i don’t feel as vindictive as he does; and agree with joe that if we go extinct, it won’t be because of sexual repression, however hard this has been on individuals.
joe’s suggestion that we suffer from a shortage of pro-sex propaganda, however, puzzles me greatly. juliet insists to me that no one in the us takes the anti-heterosex feminazis seriously any more, and the religious right don’t impinge on her big city either. where i live there is a daily newspaper appealing to the liberal intelligentsia that is forever doing features on erotic massage and improving your sex life. we have gay marriage. and the general ethos here is positive to all forms of sexuality except [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], ****philia -- and paying for it.
i’d prefer to turn this around: the person who is invisible in all this entertainment, discussion and propaganda is not the one who is having lots of healthy sex, but the one who isn’t, because he or she is not very desirable. if i appear to bang on about this a lot, well, rn has her crusade for the dignity of the sex worker, and i have mine for the residual humanity, in the teeth of all the prejudices, of the differently attractive. “if you prick us, do we not bleed, if you tickle us, do we not laugh”?
ever noticed how doctors think they can tell us to “have sex” or “start a sexual relationship” the way they can tell us to eat more broccoli? whatever they might have known in civilian clothes about unequal access to sex is magically removed from their brains by the white coat. of course, as doctors they’re ipso facto sexy themselves, so what do they know about how the other half lives? a hundred years ago they would have advised us to visit prostitutes, which they can’t do now, because le and/or pc would get them; so they give us advice which is as cruel as telling the wheelchair user to go jogging.
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Philip -- I agree with Juliet regarding anti-heterosex feminazis; they've always been a rather vocal minority in any event. I wish her sense of the religious right spread beyond those large cities, as in the heartlands their anti-sex crusades are quite powerful, and their grassroots political agenda revolves around control of local school boards. Hence there is still a fair amount of pressure on sex-education measures, ranging from abstinence campaigns to anti-abortion scare tactics (nothing like showing school kids pics of aborted fetuses, eh?) to the ever-popular attempts to either not teach evolution or include faith-based theories as well. Always good to have the local Montessori school also host fire and brimstone teachings on the shortly upcoming apocalypse (based on the fact that it's Sodom and Gemorrah out there), as happens where I live...
And my statement wasn't simply about a lack of pro-sex information (I can go into any bookstore and find something) but about the corresponding lack of structural or institutional societal support. I don't disagree with you that there's a fair amount of pro-sex propaganda, but here it's generally very targetted at folks who are already enlightened as opposed to being a mainstream aspect of "happy person building." It's for "liberal intelligentsia" as opposed to those who are without much of either liberality or intellgensia :-) I'd like to see it be dealt with as part of the sex education process (though that will never happen) so not only do you learn how babies are made and the specifics of various organs from a biological perspective, you learn what the standard ranges of human sexual response and processes happen to be, physiological differences based not only on pregnancy but on human sexual response. I'd like to see a scenario where marriage counselors easily can just send someone to sex counseling as a normal, non-shaming and inexpensive way of ceasing to fuck up their relationship because they're not properly fucking up each other. While the absolute stigma about being part of a species that actually has sex once in a while has subsided, I think it's a long way to say that the other side of the coin is the one facing up.
This doesn't, of course, in any way whatsoever conflict with your quest for the differently attractive, and I completely agree with you about doctors. But of course their method is usually to deliver the news about what you need to do, and, unless it's via a pill or a knife, they're generally not very helpful about the how.
Hmm -- what do you think about the possibility of getting sex workers officially reclassified as health care workers? :-) After all. if it's what the doctor ordered... and I'd love to have insurance coverage as well, thank you very much. O Nursey, I've got a prescription that needs filling!
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i just wrote a really long fucking message which got lost when i had to go back on line because my isp automatically disconnects after an hour of inactivity. doesn't that just [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] me off? that doesn't happen when i do e-mail, losing the message i mean, while going back on-line. anyhow, now that wisdom is lost to the ages. in short, i agreed with u joe about the lack of social support for pleasurable, responsible sex, particularly for teenagers, which is why they have the highest rates of std's and unwanted pregnancies. i disagreed with u, phil, in that while sexual repression may not physically kill us it does much harm to our psyches and our ability to love one another, and it is the lack of love which i refer to as the spiritual basis for our self destructiion, regardless of how it may physically manifest, i.e. nuclear war.
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Terry:
My sympathies; I get around that by writing in Word offline, logging on, logging in, and pasting. I understand your position on lack of good sex leading to lack of love and perhaps thence to war, but we’ll have to agree to differ on that one.
Joe:
Funny how fundamentalist loonies are quite all right as long as they’re not Muslim fundamentalist loonies, isn’t it? Apropos your wish to teach “what the standard ranges of human sexual response and processes happen to be, physiological differences based not only on pregnancy but on human sexual response”, I am reminded of Camille Paglia’s insistence that a feminist should know something of biology, physiology, endocrinology and neurology before pontificating about men and women. In both cases it will be a fight, as Western liberals have been bamboozled by generations of social-constructionism. These may be positive to sex, but they still don’t understand it. Human nature in general and sexual nature in particular is not what either religious or secular Pollyannas want it to be.
“What do I think about the possibility of getting sex workers officially reclassified as health care workers?” Where I live we’re practically there – as regards professional sexual services for the disabled, but only for the disabled. This is not due to any re-evaluation of prostitution in general, but simply because two different flavours of political correctness have collided head-on. The disabled man’s rights to sexual experience take precedence, and everyone somehow contrives to “forget”, in this context alone, that this is “the sale of women’s bodies”.
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i had a dream this a.m. which has connected a few threads recent to this discussion. it involved a gorgeous young woman i know. in it, i was able 2 eat her out, but still lacked the confidence 2 go a step further, the ultimate step of intercourse. this brings up what i perceive as my main problem in life and particularly with relating 2 women; lack of confidence. i'm sufficiently physically attractive and intelligent 2 succeed with women: my downfall is and always has been related 2 profound personal insecurity. activity with prostitutes has certainly helped overcome that 2 some degree, but thanx 2 criminalization and the resultant scarcity, stigma, and expense of indulging has prevented me from conquering this problem. i believe in a world where prostitution were decriminalized, it would be the most common form of heterosexual relationship and virtually eliminate sexual problems such as mine. it would also virtually eliminate the problems women most frequently have with men which have also been discussed here; i.e. being taken advantage of by suave deceitful charmers, as such naivete would be rare in a world where sex was freely enjoyed and it's benefits to all openly known. it would be a rare woman indeed who would consider her attractiveness to men a curse when that attractiveness becomes a reliable meal ticket instead of a lure for manipulative losers.
as i've gotten older and learned the ways of the world so to speak my confidence problem has shifted in focus somewhat away from myself towards my fellow humans. beings which are stupid and sadistic enough 2 criminalize something as beneficial as consensual sex, (and make no mistake about it, decriminalized prostitution would become the most common form of consensual sex, and nonconsensual sex would be virtually eliminated), are difficult 2 perceive as being inherently attractive psychologically. hence the evolution of my perception that we humans are a spiritual cancer which should and eventually will become extinct if we don't mend our ways.
i'm curious, p.a., where do u live?
the virgin terry
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again, i don't have the same generally nihilistic view that you do, terry, nor do i at *all* think that legalizing prostitution would do anything to affect [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] (which is not about sex but power and control) but i can empathise with your issues of self-confidence, as i think that's a universal chord. i'm not sure i'd go so far as you to saying that legal prostitution would become the most common form of consensual sex -- i think that basic human relationships, which, despite the impression one might get from reading this board, do exist and can be healthy and happy for both partners, are still and would remain the core and common aspect of life. we've not seen a disappearence of those relationships in places like the netherlands where prostitution is legal and readily available, for instance.
i also don't see all or even most women deciding their attractiveness translates into a meal ticket in that scenario. some might, of course. people want different things out of life, so while some might see dollar signs, others might simply see lack of stigma, and most will still be on the quest to be loved, cherished, and simply less alone in the world.
personally, i find confidence, attractiveness and self-esteem are all related to outlook (though i'm not at *all* discounting the truth of philip's differently attractive situations.) i'm generally a depressive -- runs in my family -- but i've definitely found that if i go through life defining people as having negative designs on my freedoms (which clearly many do) then i see only the bad side of them (which everyone including me has) as opposed to their positive aspects. there are very few people i've run into, including the most fanatic, who i don't find i can engage in a healthy conversation about our differences in perspective, and where i can't affect either some degree of change or at least greater understanding. it's work, and you don't put a light-bulb on in someone's head, but you can affect gradual perspective changes, and that's how all of us develop our attitudes toward things. and if nothing else, by figuring out what's good about them and appealing to it, you challenge someone to either go in that direction of increase their level of self-loathing (not that many won't choose the latter.)
don't get me wrong -- i'm not some sort of guileless happy idiot; i back down from confrontation *far* less often than i ought to, and i get pissed off as well, but in general i've found that my indignation or anger, except in scenarios of imminent danger, are counterproductive to helping develop those things or environments that i want. i figure the way to fight the intolerent is by being as ultimately tolerant as i can, including toward them.
philip -- your explanation regarding the disabled decidedly helps explain how you've been couching your quest for recognition of the differently attractive. i suspect, unfortunately, in the current climate of beauty worship that it's a decidedly uphill battle (just read through the "fat" diatribes in the american women section for starters) not that it's not an important issue and one worth highlighting. to me, it brings up that entire issue of "thrownness" which i've referenced before in terms of priviledge -- it's not as though i did anything to become american, white, male and tall as opposed to, say, short, female, an african of the luo tribe, whose chances for escape from or rising above my circumstances are decidely more problematic.
but by the same token, the male obsession with issues of female beauty as defined by the culture (young, thin, big breasts, a general category of facial features) does anything but reinforce that as well. juliet's past comments in regard to "competing" on the attractiveness scale are very appropriate. we're all conditioned by culture -- the question is, what do we do about it.
and, for what it's worth, my method is to always copy longer responses into my computer's memory (ctrl-a and then ctrl-c for pc users) before i hit submit. that way i don't lose things unless my system crashes, which generally doesn't happen.
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terry:
although i agree with joe on the relationship between amateur sex, prostitution and [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], i know what you mean about punting breaking down shame and insecurity; i think you might make even more headway against that if only you lived in a different jurisdiction, without, as you say, criminalisation and stigma. have you been in the big european, asian and latin american honeypots?
i’d rather not specify my location too precisely, if you don’t mind: i’ve cheated somewhat by citing examples from both this country and some of its neighbours, creating a composite. let’s just say northern europe?
joe:
after height the most desirable male characteristic is probably confidence, which is where both terry and i crash and burn – i’m not actually that hideous, which is why i prefer the differently-charismatic to the otherwise-attractive label. but hey, an inability to blow one’s own trumpet and strut one’s stuff should count as a disability too. the thing i like about brothels is that they have to do the advertising and competing, not me.
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i'm too computer illiterate to know what the hell u guys r talking about in reference 2 saving messages. i just need 2 keep mine shorter and accept it if they occasionally get lost. some of the messages which get posted here r 2 long anyhow.
come on, p.a., don't be so paranoid! u can at least give your country's name. r u afraid the frigging morality police r going 2 hunt u down and flog u in public for being such a shameless punter? if i were wealthy enough and had time enough 2 travel the world, 2 countries in europe i'd check out r the netherlands and switzerland, because both have effectively legalized my favorite recreational and therapeutic drug, marijuana, and i love mountains and prostitutes. if i didn't have such a case of social anxiety, i could probably enjoy a carefree hippie life bumming around the world, checking out alternative lifestyle communes and finding a place where i'd belong.
i lived in the american southwest near the mexican border for a few years, and it is with mexican women that i've had most of my experience with prostitution. mexico seems to be saturated with very young and attractive ladies, perhaps because they still have a relatively high birthrate so their population isn't aging like america's.
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i had 2 cut the previous letter short for fear of losing it. picking up where i left off: had some sweet times in mexico, where, in case u didn't know, prostitution is "tolerated" within certain zoned areas of their cities. it's de facto legalization, or decrim, and given the latitude of freedom with which the women there may operate, and their inexpensive rates due to the relative poverty of the country, it was a paradise for me compared 2 america. the worst aspect of it was the language barrier, but that wasn't such a big deal. it would have been nice however to have been able to communicate much more comprehensively with the girls in order to discover which ones i could have enjoyed intellectual companionship with as well. again, if i had the money, i would conduct a search for a prostitute with whom i could develop a complete and comprehensive relationship with, someone with an abundance of physical beauty, libido, intelligence, iconoclasm, and thirst for adventure and knowledge.
never checked out the scenes in europe and asia. i'd definitely like to check out places like the philippines and thailand. there's a book titled PATPONG SISTERS written by a sexy american female grad student who lived in bangkok while doing research on prostitution there. she enjoyed herself immensely there, lived like a queen on her student stipend because things were so cheap. good book.
j.z., why do u place asterisks *around* certain words in your posts? re. how decrim. would impact the amount of sexual activity in society, perhaps my personal viewpoint is skewed. i know i would certainly get laid alot more, as i'm sure alot of other guys would also, but i think what might surprise alot of people would be how much this would expand things for women in general, who need more reasons or encouragement than men to overcome their naturally more inhibited nature, and the physical risks posed by contraceptives, pregnancy, increased vulnerabilty to HIV infection, and emotional issues (sorry, RN, women r different from men, in ways which dispose them towards lesser sexual activity). this is idealistic, but decrim if it happened would necessarily be accompanied by much greater acceptance of sexual freedom and promiscuity in general, and that alone would make a huge difference in helping women break free from current restrictions and be empowered to make choices which most under current conditions can't or won't do, such as accepting money for sex. perhaps decrim wouldn't result in most sex occuring under conditions of prostitution, but undoubtedly it would lead 2 a huge increase overall in the amount of sex people would engage in.
the virgin terry
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responding 2 the rest of your letter, joe, i agree that [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] isn't about sex per se; but i do think a world which didn't criminalize consensual sex or other consensual behavior would be such a nicer world to be a human in that the social conditions which create [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127][CodeWord127][/url] to begin with would for the most part no longer exist. same for terrorists, and all other sorts of ant****ial behavior.
i admire your ability 2 get along with those with whom u disagree, but i guess i'm just not built that way. views which i vehemently disagree with necessarily alienate me 2 the extent that i can't trust a person from which they proceed. without trust, there can be no friendship or respect. since most people hold such views, my world is necessarily quite lonely.
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Terry, the asterisks are just for emphasis -- an old habit from the days before web pages, when that's how it was done :-)
I suspect you'd like Amsterdam, as everything's very straightforward there, though very often definitely done according to the clock. Not all that expensive a trip from the states. Places like Thailand are a good deal more like Mexico in terms of unofficial tolerance as opposed to outright legalization, and things are a bit more casual there in that it's pretty easy to get someone to stay with you for longer periods of time. It might, though, be a rather dangerous place for you emotionally, as there are a lot of folks who lose their heads, hearts and wallets over there because they're treated so differently from what they're used to by the women there. "Patpong Sisters" is a nice read; you might also take a look at "Private Dancer" by Stephen Leather, which is a free download (www.stephenleather.com) -- it's not as well written imho, but it gives a nice sense of the underlying tensions therein. Given your experience with Mexico, I'd think that Brazil would appeal to you greatly as well, as I'd say similar aspects to Thailand are present, with the cultural and sensibility differences not being quite as large.
While I agree with you that women are more physically at risk in the sexual equation, I simply don't see the removal of the stigma of prostitution as being the balm that suddenly makes the female population think of their orifices as equivalent to cash machines or turns them into raving sexaholics who suddenly feel the urge to sleep with guys who they previously wouldn't. Clearly, there's been a lot of change in sexual attitudes in western society over the last forty years or so, and things are far more tolerant than they used to be, but I just don't see the criminalization of prostitution, much as I disagree with it, as being the big shackle that holds back the rest of the revolution that's keeping women from sleeping with guys they're otherwise not sleeping with. I truly wish that were the case, but I just don't see it that way.
I do, however, think decriminalization can help a society take another look at its mores and assumptions, and there are some very interesting things out there on how attitudes have shifted in the Netherlands. But it's not a headlong dash into utopia nor am I aware of any study that says that overall sexual activity goes through the roof. In fact, most studies I've seen say that US teenagers of 18 or 19, for example, are far more likely to have had multiple sexual partners in the last year than their European counterparts (which probably also helps account for the higher US rates in AIDS, pregnancy, syphillis, etc.)
Clearly, though, a healthy discussion has positive results, as the Netherlands, which has an aggressive and open display not only of available sex but of available and public sex education, has the lowest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe, far, far lower than the US, as well as a later general age for beginning sexual activity. There a far more healthy attitude overall toward discussing sex in Dutch society in general than you'll find in Britain or the US. It's possible that may be related to decriminalization, if only because the clear and visible nature of the sex trade means the Dutch must be more active in their educational efforts, as there's no avoiding the issue.
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Terry:
LOL! Mountains and prostitutes. Good combination. Some dangers, but you know where you are with them, and get healthy exercise and some great views…. I know Switzerland a little. News to me that they’ve legalised marijuana, but then I don’t smoke. What part of the country do you know best? Of course, Switzerland is no place to live for people who have trouble with bourgeois social codes. I’ve lurked a little in the Mexican sections, but I don’t think I’ve ever met a Mexican….. Never been to Thailand, it’s far too hot for me, but I’ve met Thais in Switzerland and here. And Brazilians here and in the Iberian countries.
I do know what you’re trying to do, Terry. You think that because meeting a provider short-circuits a lot of social bullshit, you can deploy your good qualities to better advantage, and that they will appreciate you because you’re a nice guy and treat them kindly. I used to speculate in that direction myself, though my friends were very sceptical. A provider once agreed that they are less impressed by surfaces than amateurs – before breaking my heart.
Joe:
English tabloids STILL use the word “naughty”, which tells us a lot. They also use “vice girl”, but that’s partly because “prostitute” is such a long and difficult word….. “Naughty vicar in vice girl shock”, that sort of thing. At the same time, a lot of students are hooking their way though college, which means that in twenty years’ time some top professionals will be ex-providers, it will be interesting to see what effect that has. In fact, of everywhere I’ve been, the UK (outside London) has the best NATIVE workers, whereas in other West European countries the locals are often cold or junkies. What a paradox.