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No offense to anyone on this forum, but don't you all think you're being just a slight bit paranoid here?
Speaking in general terms about P4P or whatever term you call it, is in no way incriminating yourself. Country John, you used to be LE, you should know this best of all. I would seriously venture to guess about 1/3 of the total post on the WSG guide forum are fake! LE still has to catch you in the act of propositioning. Simply writing about it in a forum is not incriminating. They could possibly use it against you in a case, but it would have to originate from something outside the realms of this forum.
And further more, technically, prostitution might be illegal, but trust me, it's not the worst crime to commit. Cops are much busier chasing gangsters and drug dealers toting guns, then to worry about some guy going through a middle age crisis and posting egotistically about paying for pussy on a message board!
So people, keep the info coming, keep it real. Nobody is going to kick in you door for posting here. Sure I'm sure they read it and if there are numerous reports in a specific area, they might send someone to check it out, but trust me the swat team is not going to surround your home at 3AM.
GETTINGTANG~!
PS And further more, as i have said time and time again. My posts are always fictional. Nothing I post is in any context with any sort of time frame, or has any ring of truth to it!
With all due respects go GettingTang, I have to strongly disagree with your comments regarding SD's "finest". There are no bigger chickens than the SD PD. This bunch of scum would be rather harassing a SWs and johns rather than dealing with drug dealers, pimps and serious crime. I have seen it with my own eyes.
A few months ago I was back in SD cruising ECB and watched as a squad car stopped a SW and talked to her and arrested her. Less than a block away, 2 black dudes where dealing drugs right on ECB!! I couldn't believe it. I almost (I repeat almost) went up to the cops and asked them what they were going to do about the drug deals, but with my luck they would have arrested me for loitering!
Let's face it, the cops would much rather deal with individuals they know won't take a shot at them or make them work to hard. Mongers and SW are not usually a violent bunch and due to the stigma, are willing to do whatever is necessary to make things "cool". Cop's get higher arrest numbers, meet quota, DA's get more convictions and they get more rhetoric for their election campaigns. "everyone" is then happy. Except for the people who live in the area and ahve to put up with the real dangerous types, including pimps, dealers, thieves, etc...
But hey, they can then say they have cleaned up the streets. Let's face it, cops are just out to save their own skin and stick it to the city on an injury/disability as soon as they can. The best thing that could happen to the SD PD is a major budget cut since the city will be out of money! They deseve to be walking the unemployment lines!
I'll get off my soapbox now!
Be safe out there!
AHT169
With all due respect to all who are in fact due respect (and you know who you are), it may be impossible for you to comprehend this but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to LE. You have no reality on what it's like, on the danger or anything else. The best you can do is sit on your ass and criticize.
You chose to engage in illegal activity and then blame it on the cops -how juvenile.
You think you are being a tough guy and post these long winded dissertations about how terrible the cops are. You ain't shit.
You have no idea what you are talking about yet you go on and on like some huge injustice has been done to you. Somebody made you behave because you couldn't behave yourself and now you're gonna flame the cops on a public forum -wow.
The LE who read these posts know exactly how to treat you when they CATCH you man. After reading the shit you post, if I were you I would not wonder anymore about why LE carries on the way they do when they catch you. You deserve EVERY bit and maybe more. Their view of mongerers is influenced, among other things by what you write here and if you don't give a shit about it then why the hell are you posting it?
Yeah I'm EX LE and I am damn proud of it. The best you can do is post some half wit panty waist dilettante milk toast fucking brain fart about how terrible everything is and how miserable the cops are. Well FUCK YOU. Maybe we should turn everything over to you right? Let you run it right? Sure. You wouldn't make it.
Next time you see vice grinding some poor mongerers face into a video camera on COPS or Channel 7, give yourself a big pat on the back son because YOU probably had something to do with it asshole. You just don't get the message.
See you on TV.
Country John
I have to side with Country John on this one. We are in America and one reason why it is so damn cool here is because the cops keep people from running it into a shithole. Also, being the democracy it is the majority has decided, no matter how much we may disagree, that mongering and girls trading the use of their bodies for money (prostitution) is against the law. The cops do not make the laws, they enforce them.
We choose to disobey those laws and lurk about looking for some cutie that will trade a few bucks for riding the baloney pony. It is at this point that we become adversaries of the law and society. From here you can decide to be a respectful adversary or one who is a disrespectful ass on top of breaking the law. Frankly I think the smart move is to remain respectful. Respecting ones adversary is the wisest move you can make, at a minimum it will keep you on your toes and keep you from getting sloppy, careless and caught by your adversary.
Cops have a crap job. They are the same as garbage collectors except they get to deal with the two legged, trash talking, disrespectful garbage. A thankless job to say the least.
Now do I wish the cops would devote more time and budget money to things like car theft rings, gangs, drug dealers, etc and in the process leave the nearly victimless crime of prostitution alone? Absolutely! Will I complain or grumble about it when the pickings are slim on ECB? Sure will. Is it necessary to be disrespectful to the street cops actually doing their jobs? Not at all.
The cops aren't deciding to oppress you, to single you out and harass you specifically. You are breaking the law, intentionally by choice and that puts you in their cross hairs.
I hope for your and all of our sakes that we are able to monger without finding ourselves in those crosshairs. If you do end up there just remember, it is you who put yourself there in that situation, not them.
TD
Country John, if I may address your last post:
Tang: First of all, I do have the most respect for LE, as I have said numerous times. With all aspects of their jobs, except for one. This has to do with the act of prostitution. I do not believe it should be fully illegal. Perhaps regulated and controlled, but not a blanket crime. By the way, many politicians feel the same way. In fact 60% of Americans when polled, do not feel paying for sex should be a crime!
Quote CJ: "You chose to engage in illegal activity and then blame it on the cops -how juvenile. end Quote"
Tang: We know the act of mongering is illegal. This is where the problem stems from. We do not feel it should be illegal in the first place. Jay walking is illegal too.
QUOTE CJ: "You think you are being a tough guy and post these long winded dissertations about how terrible the cops are. You ain't shit."
Tang: This again is not fully true. Some of us are in fact shit. I happen to be 6'2" 245 pounds, have a brown belt, and boxed for 6 years in the core. I'm a vet who fought for my country and continues to support the war on terror! I stand the liberty for all Americans! Again, I simply disagree, the paying for sex, is a crime. It hurts no one!
QUOTE CJ: " You have no idea what you are talking about yet you go on and on like some huge injustice has been done to you. Somebody made you behave because you couldn't behave yourself and now you're gonna flame the cops on a public forum -wow."
Tang: So essentially what you're saying is you agree with LE stance on aggressively pursuing those who pay for sex? Read between the lines and you are. So I would pose the question then, what are you truly doing in this forum??
QUOTE CJ: "Yeah I'm EX LE and I am damn proud of it. The best you can do is post some half wit panty waist dilettante milk toast fucking brain fart about how terrible everything is and how miserable the cops are. Well FUCK YOU. Maybe we should turn everything over to you right? Let you run it right? Sure. You wouldn't make it."
TANG: Well finally something I can sort of agree with. I don't think painting a broad brush of LE is proper. They do have their place and do deserve respect. There are lots of LE officers who are very good and understanding people. Who do care about their communities and do try and do things right!
QUOTE CJ: "Next time you see vice grinding some poor mongers face into a video camera on COPS or Channel 7, give yourself a big pat on the back son because YOU probably had something to do with it asshole. You just don't get the message. "
TANG: Again, in my opinion it has now become all to clear why you are here, it's not to monger and share with the rest of us. You agree fully with the fact that paying for sex should be illegal. Sometimes the truth comes out when someone is heated. You being ex LE, should know this best. Whatever work you had here, for whatever reason is now done. You have been exposed and by your own doing!
GETTINGTANG~!
Country John, So much for your promise to move your discussions of LE to the opinions and editorials board. It was nice while it lasted.
No one is denying that cops have a tough job. And most of us know that the individual cops enforcing prostitution and other bogus laws are simply following directions of their superiors: in most cities the Chief of Police and the Mayor. Like most of us, they want to keep their jobs and try to follow directions.
The problem lies in the way they seem to relish destroying some poor guys life who's done nothing more than pick up a prostitute. You see them laugh and high-five each other when they get to impound a vehicle and joke about what the "perverts" wife is going to say when she finds out. I think most mongers do treat the police with respect. I know I am always respectful and try to treat them with courtesy and dignity. But I've never seen it returned. I've said hello to officers before with no acknowlegement from them whatever. I am not a cop, therefore I am not a human being. They even have an acronym for junkies, homeless people, mongers, etc which is NHI. It stands for No Human Involved. For the police to get respect they also have to give it.
I too am suspicious of Country Johns reports. For someone who is ex-LE he sure dishes out a lot of disinformation. On the Anaheim board he said in one post that if you ask a cop if he/she is LE they have to tell the truth. If they don't then it's clear sailing provided you make an illegal recording of their denial. He said just to ask the policewoman to show her breasts. Someone who is even a little familiar with LE and mongering is aware of the intent to solicit laws. Then a day later he admitted that LE can lie and often does. Which is it? Following CJ's advise will get your car impounded and get you arrested.
But I doubt if CJ is really a threat. I don't believe he is working in conjunction with any agency. I think he must be extremely bored, with a hell of a lot of time on his hands to post 157 reports in just over six weeks. He's practically written Gone with the Wind on the Morality of Prostitution thread. I have faith that our tax dollars are not going to pay this windbag to write sometimes fourteen posts a day in his extremely difficult to read and verbose style.
I'm sure this post will result in his writing an additional twenty pages of rebuttal and vaguely worded threats about how LE is going to humiliate me if I ever get arrested for mongering because I don't support arrogant police rookies roughing up prostitutes and mongers. Or maybe he will keep his promise and move his obvious infatuation with LE somewhere else.
Civ 2000,
Yes, that quote about police women working vice having to tell the truth, if asked about being a cop, had me wondering too.
I don't think he is L.E. at all, but rather a retired security guard, when not writing on this forum is watching 'COPS".
No legitimate police agency would have anything to do with a depraved individual like this. He could never get past the background checks.
If he was a real cop all police would be ashamed of him.
Sorry, this is off the topic of looking and finding pussy. But his writing and love of L.E. makes me crazy.
my personal story and why prostitution should be accepted.
i grew up in a home where my father was an alcoholic. he was never directly abusive, but was a drunk. the reason my father took up the bottle as his prescribed medication was for an escape from reality. he was married to my mother who was very mentally ill. she was quite unstable and in those days, you kept things of this nature to yourself. there was no profession help or medication. my father and mother had separate bedrooms for over 30 years. they never had sex, or any form of intimate relations. in those days, there was no such thing as abandoning your family and getting a divorce. my father took up his woes in a bottle. this is how he dealt. i would have much rather scene my father, take up the hobby of mongering. it did exist in those days too. (world's oldest profession) had he lived in this day and chosen to take up mongering as a release from reality and to fulfill his sexual needs, would this have made him a criminal? would this had led to a group of undercover cops high filing each other and boasting egotistically as civic 2000 puts it, because they just ruined a man's life? and for what? this is wrong.
no cop knows the real reason why another man mongers. we all have our own issues. for some it's simply the sport and variety of different girls. for others it's a "dope date" where all they are really looking for is companionship. for others, it's the simple act of needing a sexual release. (anyone ever heard of a surrogate sex partner, this actually is called therapy and can be deemed legal, yet the guy is paying for sex! )
i challenge every monger on this board to ask your next hoe you hook up with this question:
"how often do you get dates, where the guy just wants to talk, maybe some petting, or spooning, etc.? if the girl is not some strung out crack hoe and has been at the trade for a while, she will likely respond with a figure of about 20% or 1 in 5 dates!
my point here, is cops, or le, do not always "know" the reason why a man might be engaging in paying for sex. or a lack there of. often the guy will proposition the girl for a sexual service, but actually have no intentions of having sex. when they arrive at the spot to do the deed, he might reveal he just wanted some company, or companionship. this happens far more then most of you realize. yet, had this girl been undercover, his life as he knows it, is likely to be over.
even in the event where sex takes place, it should not be the government's business. our sex lives, unless they bring harm to another human being, is not a crime. we are each born with our own sexuality, and it is our own moral and personal tastes that will guide our preferences.
once again, i have no beef with le, i'm not a cop hater. i don't call them bad names. i would call myself an outstanding citizen of this country. i'm 100% law abiding and have respect for all human beings. i have never smoked, drank more then a few with diner on occasion, i don't smoke. i drive the speed limit, i have a good job, i give to numerous charities every year. i'm very much involved in my community and local politics when i can be. i own a home, my neighbors think i'm great. etc, etc, etc.
my personal weakness, besides not being in a situation where i am able to have sex when i want. i like a variety of different girls. i get bored easily. whenever i date. i'm very polite, a bit on the shy side. i tend to over tip and treat the girls nicer then probably any boyfriend they have ever had. i respect them. this will often result in my getting a true gfe. sometimes i get stepped on, but not usually. about half the girls i have been with truly enjoy the sex and do get into it. this is another point for le to haggle with. many of these girls, will often enjoy themselves. seriously! now i know many will say they are faking it, or i'm full of crap. but to those who have been at this for a while, soon realize, it's true. women, like men, enjoy sex! many enjoy selling! is this a crime? le will all try and paint this pitty picture about how the poor working girl is totally being taken advantage of. in many cases this might be true, but is equally as many, it is not! many indoor providers, truly do enjoy their trade! they aqctually like meeting new men and enjoying sexual experiences with them. i ask you again, when done discretly and in a manor where no person gets hurt, is this a crime?
so tonight, i have not had sex for three weeks, i decide to run down to my local amp and get a discreet massage. just as she is slipping on the condom, the door gets kicked in, the place is being raided. i get busted for solicitation. my life ends as i know it. i ask you, is this right, is it fair?
gettingtang~!
as always, just my two cents worth on this topic, based on fictional events from my imagination!
Civ
You're right - I promised to take this to another forum.
I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I'm getting good info off the forum and having a lot of fun out there mongering when I can. Some of you get it, some of you don't. Now that we know who's who we can get on with the show.
Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John
Edit:
Just stopped by to have a look at our new digs. . . .nice.
Thanks Jackson for creating this area for us. We'll try to clean up after ourselves!.
Geez Country John, Now that we have our own section I don't have anything negative left to say.
Since this has wandered into a new forum, I hope you all won't mind if pitch in.
I grew up around cops, as my dad was one, and I spent a couple of years as a police officer trainee a million years ago. (I even went on a prostitution sweep once back when I was a pup, which was probably at least partially responsible for my subsequent fascination.) I think one very key issue this discussion is overlooking is this -- by and large, it's not individual cops who are making the decision to make concerted efforts to go after prostitution. That's coming from up top -- from either the senior folks in the police department or from the mayor or other politicos.
Cops don't generally focus on this stuff unless they get complaints from the neighborhood folks or unless there's a policy. Policy on prostitution comes from on high -- there are instructions to "reduce the visibility" of it, or to make examples of people. Individual police officers have nothing to say about impounding cars or putting people's pictures in the paper, on websites, or on TV. Cops are foot soldiers -- they're the proverbial little dutch boy sticking his finger in the dike to stop the water and hoping for help. That's true whether you're talking about prostitution, drug-dealing, whatever. So the real anger for any of this should be directed at the fat cats who make policy and the self-righteous who make victimless crimes illegal.
If I was in a vice squad and I was charged with enforcing prostitution laws (and had no qualms about doing so) I'd most certainly read this forum for info about where the action is. But not to target individuals -- that's both virtually impossible in a forum such as this and pointless, as anything here is fairly useless in terms of arresting anyone, unless someone's dumb enough to say, "I'm gonna go cruise such-and-such street at 11pm -- you boyz give me a shout out if you see my white F150 Heritage." In that case you're too stupid to live in any event, and if the cops don't get you something else will.
Many fundamentalist Islamic societies have religious police who go around making sure everyone is obeying their particular interpretation of religious law, including things like praying 5x/day, men having beards, and women being properly covered. In so-called secular western societies, victimless crime laws and vice cops fill this function, and sometimes regular cops also, of course, since it is what they are supposed to do. Just because we don't have overtly religious-baased law and law enforcement doesn't mean we're all that different from societies which do. Certainly prostitution prohibition is puritanically based if not directly relgion based, and cops who enforce it might just as well be termed the puritan police.
Defending puritan police by saying "they're just following orders" is like defending soldiers who knowingly kill civilians, murdering them in cold blood, on orders from their superiors. Cops who bust victimless crime participants do a great deal of harm, whether they realize it or not, and should not be defended by anyone who is offended by the existence of victimless crimes such as prostitution.
JoeZ:
Nice to see you in the Cop Flaming Section! Get that asbestos suit on man! So you're ex LE eh? I knew there was something funny about you ;-)
I owe you a response in the other forum and as soon as I get Santa back up the chimney I'll sit down and bang it out.
People who have not had the training (or the inclination) simply do not understand the LE mentality and that's why they make their outrageous statements about LE. Anyone with LE background understands better how the system works than people with no background as would be expected. Most of the posts I've seen were the same old rhetoric. I welcome disagreement but the mindless dribble - well - what can I say.
Vice was always interesting but I also realized that there were lots of other things I could be doing. Important to remember is that if the SW scene was left to it's own devices, there would be major crime issues that would grow out of the trade. Serious stuff like dope and strong arm robberies and the like. If this sort of crime can be prevented or reduced by a crack down on something as easy as prostitution then let's go with the easier thing -right?
I always felt a little bit sorry for the John, jeez, the guy was looking for a blow job and he was even willing to give the girl money for the deed, now he has a lot of explaining to do and I know that a lot of homes and hearts got broken over it. But they still could not and should not blame the cops. Johns in this forum are placing themselves too high on the food chain. The prostitution scene is only a small part of a very big crime picture.
The typical half-wit moron response to that statement would be something like "....yeah man, that $10. I paid for a blow job is going directly to Bin Laden. . . ." So you're lucky to get anyone to understand this stuff outside LE - hence the flaming.
There is considerable immaturity on this subject. Based on the attitudes and emotions on this board, vice detail will temper their attitude accordingly when the pressure is off and the john is in custody. It is important for players to realize that WE place OURSELVES on the playing field and are therefore "fair game." Something most people in this forum fail to realize.
I also agree that we are telling LE how to catch us. (They already have a lot of data on our MO, I mean what could be easier.)
Maybe we need another section called "I Got Busted."
I remember one time listening to a 459Biz suspect complaining to his partner about the cops being pricks for "interrupting his caper." Man, we were all lower than anything that crawls on the ground without legs. Well, sorry champ, we'll try harder next time to let you make it out before we get there!
To be perfectly honest, if I got VT and GT (not diseases) in an operation and knew who they were from this board, I'd have one hell of a time with them. Just because of their attitiude. (It would all be in good fun - no public parading etc. but just some laughs on the street.) They can't understand this. They don't mind flaming the cops in a public forum but get all wrapped around the axle when it happens to them. Whatever happened to "turnabout" being fair play?
Now I'm sure that the vice reading this will be quick to point out that they do not engage in this sort of behaviour but that is bullshit. A good laugh at the end of a long day is something we all enjoy and they deserve a good chuckle just like we do, even if it is at our expense, not out of cruelty, but in good fun.
So being safe and being smart is how we should do our thing. The cops place a heavy emphasis on being safe and being smart in all operations. We can do it and I think we need a little more organization in that particular area.
Civ:
'Cmon, I know you've got something left in there - open up! You're a medical guy right? Saw a very interesting post from you in another forum. I'll try not to provoke you.
Have a safe and happy holday all.
Country John
PS: I'll be at Holt and Indian Hill tonight at 9:00 in a red Chevy Blazer with tinted windows and a black ski rack looking for SW's. Yeah right!
PS2: LE - thanks for all you do. Be safe and we'll see you on the streets.
well, vt, again i disagree with you. should i be excoriating individual american soldiers because they participated in what i considered to be an unjust war in iraq? should i spit on every vietnam vet because i believed that to be another? should i be condemning as a nazi every alderman who hasn't voted for legal gambling in my town? by your reasoning, every enforcer of a law or policy that has opposition, of any kind, not only should be questioned but placed in the same category as those who commit crimes against humanity. that's hyperbolic bullshit.
gee, time for me to get my gun and take out the zoning board, those immoral bastards...
country john, personally i always felt sorrier for the women than for the johns -- they are trying to make a living, and a generally lousy one at that, and they are at far greater risk, whereas with johns, ourselves included, the whole scene is an "optional" one -- i.e. your comment about becoming "fair game." but by and large in my town there was very little enforcement or focus on prostitution beyond reacting to the complaints of various businesses and homeowners about the high visibility of streetwalkers and the attendant traffic they brought. vice only went after prostitution when it simply got to be too "in your face" aggressive, otherwise it was the drug trade, the numbers racket, etc.
i absolutely believe prostitution should be legal, but that doesn't mean that it's somehow pristine right now in its manifestations -- there are still ties to violence, robbery, (anyone here ever been ripped off by a prostitute? i bet there's a law you'd prefer to have the same cop you call a bastard enforce) the hard drug trade, etc. yes, legalizing it would get rid of lots of those things, but until that happens they're still there.
you know, when i worked in the city jail, i used to say, please lord, tonight give me murderers and [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127][CodeWord127][/url], give me arsonists and car thieves, but please, please, please, don't give me normal citizens who have screwed up by being drunk, obnoxious, rowdy to the point of breaking something or taking a poke at someone, caught with their pants down, whatever. because the latter were always the ones who were going to try to hurt me physically. the hardcore criminals knew they were caught, knew what they did, and didn't blame the cops -- unlike the normal citizen, for whom every policy ought to change simply because it can't possibly apply to them, and who blame those enforcing the laws for their problems as opposed to themselves. these same folks who fight like wild animals being locked up for dui would scream, at the top of their voices, that the police were to blame if their kid got mowed down by someone with a blood alcohol content half of what they had, if their window was the one that got broken, or if the hookers were servicing tricks in [i]their[/i] driveway.
if i'm engaging in the pay-for-play trade in the us, unless i'm in those rare spots in nevada, i'm at risk. it's a risk i have to be willing to assume to play at this point. i believe the laws ought to be changed. but i'm sure as hell not going to blame someone else if i get burned, and i'm not going to kill the messenger -- we all go into this with our eyes open.