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To RN:
"Youth is wasted on the young."
-- George Bernard Shaw :-)
You obviously like to build others up, a nurturer. Isn't it depressing how many people seem to think that there is only a fixed quantity of self-esteem in the world, and the more others have, the less there will be for them?
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To Joe:
Another great essay!
I’m neither a happy nor a mean drunk, alcohol in quantity makes me sleepy or maudlin – but I understand what you say about “being around the sex industry” making you tolerant and benevolent. I would claim to be a fellow-exception to any general rule that it ramps up my frustration level. OK, it has happened that I have fallen unhappily in love with a provider in connection with getting laid, but I don’t see why that’s any worse than falling unhappily in love with a non-provider in connection with not getting laid.
Regarding Dickhead and his “price”, you are so right to classify the words “I love you” as a price. It is perhaps my greatest indictment of the fair sex that, given a choice between the honourable man who demonstrates love in action and the cad who says “I love you”, they almost invariably choose the latter. And then they call us shallow! I like what you say about the simplicity of knowing everyone’s price-tag.
You’re also right about “control and place in the world”. Critics of the scene say it’s about power, and of course it is – but power to do what? I don’t want the power to hurt or humiliate a working lady, but given my background I do appreciate the power to say, “I’d like you, please, let’s go”. That’s my “power to choose”. I guess the feminazis don’t understand or care about the difference.
Even more I like what you say about “trying to understand the social rules around opposite-sex relationships completely baffling and impossible”. It’s too much game and façade. (Someone once said to me, in a tone of astonishment: “Philip, you’re the same person with everyone you talk to!” Eh? And who else would I be?) The girls may have to present a false personality, but I think that in the brothel I myself can be….. ultimately authentic. Or what RN calls “primal”, a good word that. Unclothed in every sense.
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Not at all to derail the conversation, but...
In regard to the whole "I love you" thing, I tend to think that men and women approach that in rather different ways -- first, men all too often approach "I love you" in the way Americans do when they say, "I'll be with you a bit later" which is a meaningless way to get what you want, in the latter case a moment of breathing space or blowing someone off and in the former, laid. It's a rhetorical device without meaning if it's said too easily. I had to break myself of the habit of saying stuff like "in a minute" when travelling abroad, because people take it as a real promise as you're outside of the societal context where it's supposed to be meaningless. (I spent a couple of hours in Nairobi fulfilling casual promises to see merchants' wares because they came up to me days later and reminded me of my "promise" to come over.) Women trying to figure out guys' intentions are like those inhabitants of other societies seeking the true articulation of feelings from men who are unused to that kind of expression -- there are implications of committment and continuity involved, and I think it's understandable in a relationship to look for those. I think for women the statement often means, "You're someone I'd want/consider having children/a nest with" whereas to men it means, "I dunno about the whole family raising thing, but I'm all in favor of repeated creative attempts at conception, especially if there can be elevators, whipped creme, or weird positions involved." Or else it means, "I'll tell you what you want to hear; now can we please talk about something else, since this self-examination stuff hurts?"
Honestly, I don't think it's fair to rip women for wanting to hear it -- why should they be taken to task for being just as insecure and uncertain about where they stand as men? Why should they have to be the ones who aren't clueless when they're faced with guys who would say absolutely anything to go to bed with them? To quote Firesign Theatre: we're all bozos on this bus.
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Juliet puts in her two cents:
"Attention, affection, companionship, validation, etc. I think people sometimes pretend it's all about money or sex because
they're afraid to admit that they long for these other
things......"
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To Joe:
I agree that we’re all bozos on this bus, and the corresponding male error is perhaps to assume that a woman doesn’t love us if she’s not jumping into bed. I don’t make that one myself, because I’m comfortable with the idea of platonic love. I would still maintain, however, that paying attention to the three magic words at the expense of actual behaviour is a dangerous and even self-destructive thing to do. For every predatory man who tells them ILY just to get their pants off, there is another man who gives them real love in action, but is shy of saying the words. I don’t see why the words ILY should be a miracle cure for insecurity and uncertainty – I suppose I belong in Missouri.
How did we get into this in the MoP context? Ah, yes, it was that everyone has their “price”, and in this case some seem excessively happy with counterfeit money. With the debates in “American Women” in mind, I wonder if people find that the legendary Brazilians and so on pay less attention to the words ILY and more attention to actual caring and considerate behaviour? Myself, I have no idea.
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And that's not even to deal with the different things ILY means based on cultural context...
Actually, I think the idea of counterfeit money is a perfect metaphor in this thread -- after all, prostitution has a great deal of that currency as a necessary and welcomed part of its equation. Monopoly money is perfectly acceptable tender as long as everyone's playing the same game. (I know that Terry's against that, but his is a brave and quixotic quest, I think.) I don't at all disagree with you that women can at times be blind to who actually cares about them, but we men are every bit as good at misreading signals. (I had a conversation a couple of years ago with a woman I knew who worked as a stripper and she told me she'd tried to get me to sleep with her for years, but I apparently wasn't interested. Clueless, oblivious and dazzled is more like it.)
RN referenced being in "the life" helping her discern "woman-hating losers" better; certainly I know tons of women who desperately could use the same skills. At the same time I could also wish some of my buddies understood that there's more to a relationship than big tits, as their attraction to top-heavy emotional cannibals astonishes me.
Of course, within the context of my original question, I also consistently see both men and women who enter into the sex industry in search of something (and sex is usually not really it, though it's involved) and end up disappointed that they didn't find it. For men, that can be an intimate relationship where they're somehow "special" beyond the time limit of time purchased, and for women it can quite often be some level of, how can I say it, maybe self-worth or reinforcement of self-image? (Not at all discounting the economics, of course.) I'm constantly amazed by the number of absolutely stunning women I've met in the biz who start out a conversation about themselves by reciting a list of their bodily flaws. Of course, as RN's noted in the past, it's also an industry where your desireability gets measured in that way, and where like it or not you've got some degree of an expiration sticker pasted on your nether cheek, at least for some clients. At the same time, if you look at the archives of some of the conversations on this board, the number of men who feel "cheated" because sex workers somehow take advantage of them emotionally or financially is astounding if all they're after is sex.
But of course we all remember the slights more sharply than the praise :-)
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i've been away for a while mostly because of difficulty in logging in to the new system, which u'll note has forced me to drop the y off my name. anyway, i got a laugh out of philip's coining of the phrase "differently charismatic" several weeks ago in reference 2 the proliferation of "politically correct" speech in our language recently; it's an apt description for those of us lacking in what i guess may be termed mainstream charm. how about "charismatically challenged"? also, philip, for someone who claims 2 have never been in the u.s., u have an impressive knowledge of it as evidenced by your recent reference to missouri as the "show me" state.
in reference 2 joe's recent query regarding how experience with the sex industry changes someone, for me i'd have 2 say it has had a positive influence of humanizing beautiful women, in that i've been able 2 experience intimacy with them which previously had been unattainable. simply being able 2 physically touch someone freely has that effect. not being able to has the effect of making them seem ethereal. i much prefer perceiving and experiencing them as real human beings.
i have a new question for you all: have you supported in the past or would you support in the future any organization devoted 2 decriminalization? it's a dream of mine 2 create or help create such an organization, perhaps based on civil disobedience and defiance of current laws and mainstream attitudes. i wonder just how much latent support for such activity exists among the millions of people who currently secretly support the sex industry via their direct participation in it?
the virgin terry
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Arrgghhh! I forgot how hard it is to keep up with the conversation, with all you guys chatting in the same timezone!
Ok.....
Juliet,
As always, you have hit the nail on the head in my opinion. Can I just say now while I have the opportunity, that I think you are a truly exceptional woman. :) Anyway, what you said about wanting affection, etc is actually the answer I was going to give to one of Joe's questions...
Joe,
re: single girls charging people in their private life rather than "giving it away". I should clarify that when I said I had considered doing it myself, it had NOTHING to do with the money. In fact, it's about all those things that Juliet mentioned. Let me say that if I was to meet a man that I was truly attracted to, I would never contemplate charging him. If it was a man that I was not terribly attracted to though and he was persistent, the thought of charging him would cross my mind. I guess it all comes down to that same point that everyone has just made about needing to "get something" out of the transaction. When confronted with the opportunity to have a one night stand with someone I am not entirely sure about, I would probably evaluate it by thinking "Am I going to get love?" No. "Am I going to get affection?" No. "Am I going to get great sex?" No. In the past if I came up with no "benefits" to saying yes to him, I would walk away. These days, thanks to working in the industry, another "benefit" would cross my mind that I would never have thought of before... "Can I make money out of this?" Yes.
Yeah, I know that sounds materialistic and all, but in truth it's the same argument as I always give for prostitution. If he wants me and is willing to pay for it, and I want money and am willing to have sex with him for it....it's a win-win situation. Everyone's happy. As for what damage could be done to girls who cross the line and charge for sex in their private lives? I really don't think it would do any. Perhaps she is afraid of intimate relationships? Maybe she hates men? Or maybe....she is single and loving it and doesn't see any reason to have sex with someone unless she is being duly rewarded. The only reason that I had a "line" in the first place, was because it kept the "brothel worker" me and the "housewife/mother" me as separate people in my mind. That was something that I felt I needed to do, but many girls would feel that is totally unnecessary. How girls deal with the perils of "living a double life" is a very individual thing.
I also agree with you when you said that dealing with the sex industry makes people frustrated, but I think it may be for a slightly different reason to yours. To me, the sex industry is the most honest, open and accepting environment that anyone can step into. Everything is up front and open.....no mind games or emotional turmoil. Just straight sex the way you want it, when you want it, with no strings attached. Personally, I tend to believe that the frustration felt by people who have dealt with the industry, is caused when they step back into the "real world" and realise just how petty and cruel and difficult it really is.
Philip,
re: the power of control
That's exactly what I meant in the above statement. The client has the power to choose his partner, specify his fantasies (that she will perform in exactly the way she is told to) and know that he can be completely selfish with his emotions and she will not be upset by it. With a sex worker he can have his cake and eat it too. The sex worker is in exactly the same position of control, which is something that a woman doesn't always feel in relationships in the real world.
I think the fact that when we step back outside of the industry, the feeling of power and confidence and the easy exchanges with the opposite sex disappear...the insecurities return. IMHO it is from that loss of control and sense of "belonging" that the aforementioned frustration comes from.
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Counterfeit money – or Pokemon cards, where kids can have fun collecting and comparing the variants, but can be conned into believing that cards have an objective dollar value (i.e., independently of what other kids will pay for them).
If your stripper tried to sleep with me for years, I’d probably miss it too. What about “woman-loving losers”, then? “Top-heavy emotional cannibals”, LOL!
I will confess, I continually seek “a relationship where I’m somehow "special" beyond the time limit of time purchased” – I can’t help it, though I can help the degree to which I expect it (not much) and how cross I get when I don’t get it (ditto). I regard being a valued and liked regular as a reasonable objective. You’re right about the indignation evinced by some guys being a pointer. I had a TG (living in my country) cultivate me by phone, until she worked up to asking me to do a pro forma marriage for some relative, whereupon I said a polite no and she disappeared. But I wasn’t mad at her, and wasn’t sure why she didn’t stay in contact to keep me warm as a repeat customer; shame, or the assumption that I would be mad at her?
Know what you mean by self-dissatisfied stunning women, too. That goes for the absolute number-one courtesan I’ve ever met, who appeared to enjoy, nay, need the sex, perhaps due to this perception of herself as unattractive. As you say, too, there’s no way you can talk such a woman into perceiving herself as beautiful, whether she’s professional or amateur, though we shall continue to try, shall we not?
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Joe,
Hearing "I love you" come out of a man's mouth before sex holds about as much weight as hearing "I'll call you" after the fact! LOL Any man who would toy with a woman's insecurities like that, just to get laid, is in my opinion a total a**hole...BUT any woman who would hear that from a man she hardly knows and actually believe it is obviously a complete fool, and will probably benefit greatly from the lesson she will ultimately learn when it's over! :) (Hmmm does that attitude qualify me as a chauvenist pig??)
Terry,
Not only do I believe in such an organization, but I currently work for one. I am also a member of a sex worker activist/lobbying group, and have spoken in the media and in public about the issues many times. There are already quite a few organisations in the US that are fighting for decriminalisation as we speak...perhaps you should get in touch with some of them and offer your support. Active members from the "secret society" of prostitutes and their clients are very hard to come by! I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms. :)
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To RN:
Only an Australian would perceive Joe and I as living in the same time zone! J
You’re right about Juliet! She doesn’t want to register herself, but if I cut and paste the conversation into e-mails for her, and paste her comments back, it’s doable.
It’s a funny thing, but what you describe is done every day by women who would be very indignant at the P word, but it’s called “dinner at <whatever>”. It’s only when it’s actual banknotes that people get upset.
I like what you say about the “easy exchanges” in the sex industry, and the sense of cheerful acceptance. Exactly what I’ve always felt.
Did I mention Herodotus and the Lydians here before? He tells us that, instead of being married off with parental dowries to the parental choice, the Lydian girls all worked as prostitutes until they’d accumulated their own dowries, then married whom they wanted. Go, Lydians, go!
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I agree, RN, but I think the devil is in the detail of how much one "hardly knows" someone, and how much the woman holds the pronouncement as the key to the kingdom, as it were. Many guys easily translate ILY into "I want/desire you" in the same way that ILY in, say, the Thailand sex scene can mean, "let's take care of each other." Others of course take it as a sacred statement of committment. And if the dangle is that saying the words is the only way to move forward in the relationship, there are plenty of people, both male and female, who will say them because it*might* be true, though they wouldn't swear to it on a stack of bibles. And of course there are plenty of both men and women who don't learn a darn thing from their mistakes in this regard, as what they want is still what they want :-)
In the context of Philip's response here, I think we're also talking about the difference between someone who comes on the scene and puts on a big romantic production (which certainly declares one's interest) and caps it with the ILY pronouncement as opposed to someone who's steadily there for someone when they need them, supportive, but shy about doing the grand production. Everyone likes to be fussed over, and everyone can have their head turned by it, but there's showing and there's showing.
And Terry, I've monetarily supported such organizations (check out COYOTE, for example) though I've not lent public support, as unfortunately in my work I deal with folks to whom such a public declaration would be viewed as the execution of a successful professional suicide.
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Ah, RN, but the scenario you describe (charging someone who is persistent but you're not attracted to) isn't necessarily win-win. It might be win for you, in that you're getting $$$ and essentially sidelining someone who's trying to have a relationship with you, but what the man is "getting" isn't necessaily what he was after/bargaining for, and there's a degree of disingenuousness about the whole process. Translating a potential or would-be suitor into a paying customer does change the fundamental nature of the relationship, and while that might be fine from your perspective, there are two sides to the coin.
Now, if the guy is clear on the change and ok with it, because basically he wants your body and not to be part of your life, then that's fine. And that might no doubt work in a situation where his interest is entirely sexual. But there's distinctly the possibility of damage here, as even if he says he's ok with it, it might well be that he perceives the rules and price you've set as the only way to get to you. Seems to me like a good way to create a stalker scenario, to be honest, or someone who at the very least feels he "owns" you in some way. A clear "no" seems a better approach, or handing him a business card that has your rates, which also send a pretty clear message.
At least in the industry there are clear parameters which can help make clear that situation.
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To Joe:
What does “Let’s take care of each other” actually mean in the Thailand sex scene? Being as nice as we can to one another as long as the ships are within hailing distance? Do you know how the Thai language divides up the emotional spectrum?
What you say about the “key to the kingdom” is precisely what I had in mind. If the woman makes an IF – GOTO gate here, then we know what’s going to happen, don’t we?
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[quote]originally posted by philip augustus
[i]to joe:
what does “let’s take care of each other” actually mean in the thailand sex scene? being as nice as we can to one another as long as the ships are within hailing distance? do you know how the thai language divides up the emotional spectrum? [/i][/quote]
it mostly means -- i'll have sex with you as much as you like as long as we go shopping when we're not screwing, and you support my entire extended family. (which, in the western scheme of things, still ends up being fairly reasonable in cost.) but the main issue on point is the ease and speed with which the statement is made, as it's a clear quid pro quo.
and i'm afraid my thai is too rudimentary at this point (working on it, and expect to learn tons during my extended time there this fall) to know enough to make critical delineations. i'm still wading through translations of the various regional mythic texts as i get time, right now.
[quote][i]what you say about the “key to the kingdom” is precisely what i had in mind. if the woman makes an if – goto gate here, then we know what’s going to happen, don’t we? [/i][/quote]
yup, it's george mallory logic at work -- climbing everest "because it's there" -- and often with the same result as with him, meaning lost, dead and frozen for 75 or so years :-)