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USA Centers for Disease Control.
Colombia Very High Risk (level 4).
USA High Risk (level 3).
China Low Risk (level 1).
The place it all started is Low Risk! Why? Because they (China) said so.
[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/map-and-travel-notices.html[/URL]
If I had the money (1 mil) I would never return. Unlike all the celebrities that said it. I would do it in a heartbeat.
I am not sure what you think I am dodging. I wasnt asked any questions so I was not in a position to dodge, and I didn't make any claims about anything other than giving an explanation as to why Sweden had a high death rate early on.
You also seem to imply that you should be able to make direct comparisons between Sweden and say Finland or Norway, as if they share smthg more in common with each other than simple geographic location. But there are big differences too, which help explain differences and make comparisons w the rest of Europe fairer. Such as the number of low income immigrants who are more at risk to COVID.
I am not sure what you mean by posturing / lying etc. Who is supposed to have been doing that? I cannot comment bcos I don't understand what your saying.
Sweden did have pandemic measures in place. Its just that it remained more open. It valued liberty above authoritarian rules. It has done better than average in Europe. Significant when you consider it beat many countries with much stricter measures. I would never claim that is has the lowest death rate. That would be preposterous given the stats. However, I would say it struck a very good balance between liberty and risk. Of course, we could eliminate the virus if we all lived in our own caves for 2 years and threw away the keys. Justlike you could eliminate road deaths if you ban vehicles. But no one thinks that is a reasonable balance between liberty and risk.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2567382]You aren't scratching anything but dodging the issue just like your boy Elvirus. The early nursing home deaths were in the few thousands while Sweden's total Covid deaths approach 15,000, their neighbor Norway less then a thousand, Demark about 2,500, both of very similar demographics and both of which of course also have nursing homes. Masks and social distancing and similar protocols work when applied, bottom line. That's in spite of all the posturing, lying, Covid denialism, liberty over lives nonsense in the failed effort to save Trump's presidency. And the poster boy of all this Sweden, is also a failure. Now it's time to get shots in arms and move on. Those who cooperated in preserving lives until the vaccines could be developed are to be applauded.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JustTK;2567334]Also if you scratch a little under the surface with what happened in Sweden, you will find that the government made huge mistakes with old age people's homes and there were many deaths there in the early months. These deaths would have happened had Sweden locked down or not.[/QUOTE]And that is what led to the higher death rates early on. We had the governor of New York here make the same mistake.
[QUOTE=JustTK;2567334]Sweden did have pandemic measures in place. Its just that it remained more open. It valued liberty above authoritarian rules. It has done better than average in Europe. Significant when you consider it beat many countries with much stricter measures. I would never claim that is has the lowest death rate. That would be preposterous given the stats. However, I would say it struck a very good balance between liberty and risk. Of course, we could eliminate the virus if we all lived in our own caves for 2 years and threw away the keys. Justlike you could eliminate road deaths if you ban vehicles. But no one thinks that is a reasonable balance between liberty and risk.[/QUOTE]Wow, we have quite the rational poster on the forum for a change.
Paulie et al are going to believe Fauci and the CDC are heroes because they are Democratic douches. You show them the research, even from a heavily Democratic leaning university like Stanford, and they are not going to change their minds. What they do not get is that the Biden Administration is getting ready to cut Fauci loose.
The two big pieces of recent news were the release of Fauci's emails. These emails were requested in part by the Democratic newspaper The Washington Post and released by the Biden administration. And the other was a Washington Post reporter clearly being fed information by the Biden administration.
What has happened is the WP prints up stories that the email release was nothing for the Democratic douches to get drunk over. In reality, Jeff Bezos, the owner of the Washington Post, banned the selling of Fauci's book on Amazon, the company he started, on the basis of what was in the emails.
If you go to the 2:30 of this video, [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhKlkkc2Eo[/URL] ,you will see a Washington Post reporter release the breaking news that Fauci started back gain of function virus research in the lab on his own after the Obama-Biden administration told him to stop it. It is pretty clear to me that he was given that information by the Biden administration and told not to blame Trump even though the reporter has been critical of Trump throughout his interview.
The real smoking gun is more like a stick of dynamite in that you need two parts, the dynamite and a match. This reporter's comment was the match.
The dynamite was Fauci's own words. See the link: [URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484390/[/URL].
Consider this hypothetical scenario: an important gain-of-function experiment involving a virus with serious pandemic potential is performed in a well-regulated, world-class laboratory by experienced investigators, but the information from the experiment is then used by another scientist who does not have the same training and facilities and is not subject to the same regulations. In an unlikely but conceivable turn of events, what if that scientist becomes infected with the virus, which leads to an outbreak and ultimately triggers a pandemic? Many ask reasonable questions: given the possibility of such a scenario—however remote—should the initial experiments have been performed and / or published in the first place, and what were the processes involved in this decision?
Scientists working in this field might say—as indeed I have said—that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks. It is more likely that a pandemic would occur in nature, and the need to stay ahead of such a threat is a primary reason for performing an experiment that might appear to be risky. However, we must respect that there are genuine and legitimate concerns about this type of research, both domestically and globally. We cannot expect those who have these concerns to simply take us, the scientific community, at our word that the benefits of this work outweigh the risks, nor can we ignore their calls for greater transparency, their concerns about conflicts of interest, and their efforts to engage in a dialog about whether these experiments should have been performed in the first place. Those of us in the scientific community who believe in the merits of this work have the responsibility to address these concerns thoughtfully and respectfully.
End of quote. So here you have Fauci as the hero of the pandemic when in fact he actually caused it. This fucker on his own assessed risk: benefit for the whole world.
And there were two competing theories for the origin of the virus. It was made by nature and it was made in the lab and leaked from the lab.
As the Washington Post reporter said, one of the other villains was Fauci's henchman Peter Daszak. He is the guy who funded Corona virus research in China, did the sham inspection of the Wuhan lab, and is the organizer of the paper written in Lancet that dismissed Covid 19 came from a lab. He sent an email to Fauci thanking him for pushing the natural origin theory with Covid 19. He and Fauci even got the tech companies to censor the lab leak theory.
Not that this is going to convince the Democratic douches of anything, but the video of the day is this complete scumbag Daszak bragging about the creation of the deadly strain of Covid-19. See the link: [URL]https://thenationalpulse.com/exclusive/daszak-reveals-chinese-colleagues-manipulating-coronaviruses/[/URL].
It really is fucking disgusting but I doubt it is going to change the minds of anyone. It seems like everyone just wants confirmation bias at this point.
[QUOTE=JustTK;2567545]I am not sure what you think I am dodging.[/QUOTE]Yes you are dodging, and are simply wrong on this one. If Sweden falls then so do all the anti-maskers, Covid denier conspiracy theorists, etc. So they must twist themselves in knots trying to prop the country up. Watching it is both sad and comical.
[QUOTE=JustTK;2567545]You also seem to imply that you should be able to make direct comparisons between Sweden and say Finland or Norway, as if they share smthg more in common with each other than simple geographic location. But there are big differences too, which help explain differences and make comparisons w the rest of Europe fairer. Such as the number of low income immigrants who are more at risk to COVID. [/QUOTE]Sweden has far more in common with its Nordic neighbors than the rest of Europe thus making the comparisons more valid. And you've yet to point out any major differences between the Nordics, most notably Sweden, Demark, and Norway that would explain the gross disparities in Covid deaths, other than of course Covid policy. The common variables would be population densities, the existence of major urban centers with inbound and outbound international travel, transportation, and cultures. As to the immigrants, all three countries mentioned have accepted plenty of refugees from the Middle East. Sweden has welcomed the most, but not a volume enough to begin to account for the findings. For example 14.1% of Norway's residents have an immigrant background, while in Sweden it's 20%. Yet Sweden has 18+ times the number of Covid deaths but only double the total population. Now you can run form this to Belgium or France, or even Peru like Elvis, but you only demonstrate to an audience of mongers that you don't know how to do science.
[QUOTE=JustTK;2567545]I am not sure what you mean by posturing / lying etc. Who is supposed to have been doing that? I cannot comment bcos I don't understand what your saying.[/QUOTE]To put it bluntly you have an agenda or are just stupid. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed the former. The former can possibly be fixed while the latter cannot. Any immunologist worth his salt would compare Sweden to it's Nordic neighbors before other countries in Europe or Peru because that's where by far the most common and significant variables exist. To argue otherwise is at best ignorant.
[QUOTE=JustTK;2567545]Sweden did have pandemic measures in place. Its just that it remained more open. It valued liberty above authoritarian rules. It has done better than average in Europe. Significant when you consider it beat many countries with much stricter measures. I would never claim that is has the lowest death rate. That would be preposterous given the stats. However, I would say it struck a very good balance between liberty and risk. Of course, we could eliminate the virus if we all lived in our own caves for 2 years and threw away the keys. Justlike you could eliminate road deaths if you ban vehicles. But no one thinks that is a reasonable balance between liberty and risk.[/QUOTE]And of course here come the very predictable logical fallacies. No one has suggested that anyone hide in a cave for two years. Norway and Demark didn't, yet while having very similar societies have a small fraction of the Covid deaths, the former 789, the latter 2520, while Sweden has 14,525. There's nothing reasonable about accepting all these excess deaths with lax policy chasing herd immunity. They fucked up. And in a word, screw your liberty to get in people's faces maskless during a once in a hundred years pandemic. Lives are more important. Also your car analogy is another fallacy, as like successful Covid protocols, we do take actions to deter auto deaths, vehicle safety, recalls, speed limits, seat belt laws, etc.
That said, this is my last Covid post in a monger forum. I've been indulging over a year now so have done my duty. Wink. Plus once you unravel all the Fox News esque nonsense a new one comes along repeating it over again. I have better things to do than go in circles.
Of course having laws in place in no way assures enforcement and compliance. In fact a good portion of road deaths are the results of non-compliance, texting while driving, speeding, drunk driving, or operating an unsafe vehicle. To go leaping around the globe comparing very different societies to that of the Nordics while assuming broad compliance with Covid mandates in such countries is simply asinine. That especially holds true when leaping to South America, but hey maybe an eye doctor with a political agenda like Rand Paul would do it. Some mongers will do it as we've seen, but this point needs to be out there once more though it's already been made by me and others many times over the last year. It's very clear, Norway and Denmark did things in the matter of Covid that Sweden didn't, thus the drastically superior results as we come into the vaccines. No it wasn't inevitable that many millions die until natural herd immunity is achieved. The true scientists had it right, the fools and otherwise political ideologues wrong. The US is living proof of the value of the vaccines, and all the better if more MAGA morons would do the right thing for themselves and other and take the shots.
I am not from USA so I am neither Dem or Rep, but I can say that I think both parties are disgusting and I would vote for neither Fauci has been caught lying so many times now, for both sides. I believe his lies have directly led to to the deaths of many people and he should be locked away for a very long time. He won't be of course bcos he worked for US government and that would be a crazy idea!
When covid first broke, we all heard the idea that it was a lab leak. It sounded like a wild conspiracy theory at the time, and once Trump got behind it, I wrote it off as such. But recent evidence, as you point out, clearly show that CDC were funding research in to virus transmission between bats and humans. They were paying a Wuhan lab to do this for them. Fauci has admitted this. Si it now seems highly plausible that the virus came from a lab leak. I can't say I am certain but I am willing to believe the evidence, and I believe both China and USA is covering that up. As ever, the public is being sold a lie to cover up huge mistakes by powerful people. All descent is shut down, as it has been throughout the pandemic. But slowly the truth seems to be taking shape.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2567575]Paulie et al are going to believe Fauci and the CDC are heroes because they are Democratic douches. You show them the research, even from a heavily Democratic leaning university like Stanford, and they are not going to change their minds. What they do not get is that the Biden Administration is getting ready to cut Fauci loose.
...
It really is fucking disgusting but I doubt it is going to change the minds of anyone. It seems like everyone just wants confirmation bias at this point.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunatelly you are making far too many false assumptions about me, and accusing me of positions that I don't have, to even bother to respond to your criticism.
I get the impression that you can only see things thru a Dem / Rep US-centric lens, and any other views dont make sense to you.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2567619]Yes you are dodging, and are simply wrong on this one. If Sweden falls then so do all the anti-maskers, Covid denier conspiracy theorists, etc. So they must twist themselves in knots trying to prop the country up. Watching it is both sad and comical.
Sweden has far more in common with its Nordic neighbors than the rest of Europe thus making the comparisons more valid. And you've yet to point out any major differences between the Nordics, most notably Sweden, Demark, and Norway that would explain the gross disparities in Covid deaths, other than of course Covid policy. The common variables would be population densities, the existence of major urban centers with inbound and outbound international travel, transportation, and cultures. As to the immigrants, all three countries mentioned have accepted plenty of refugees from the Middle East. Sweden has welcomed the most, but not a volume enough to begin to account for the findings. For example 14.1% of Norway's residents have an immigrant background, while in Sweden it's 20%. Yet Sweden has 18+ times the number of Covid deaths but only double the total population. Now you can run form this to Belgium or France, or even Peru like Elvis, but you only demonstrate to an audience of mongers that you don't know how to do science.
To put it bluntly you have an agenda or are just stupid. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed the former. The former can possibly be fixed while the latter cannot. Any immunologist worth his salt would compare Sweden to it's Nordic neighbors before other countries in Europe or Peru because that's where by far the most common and significant variables exist. To argue otherwise is at best ignorant.
And of course here come the very predictable logical fallacies. No one has suggested that anyone hide in a cave for two years. Norway and Demark didn't, yet while having very similar societies have a small fraction of the Covid deaths, the former 789, the latter 2520, while Sweden has 14,525. There's nothing reasonable about accepting all these excess deaths with lax policy chasing herd immunity. They fucked up. And in a word, screw your liberty to get in people's faces maskless during a once in a hundred years pandemic. Lives are more important. Also your car analogy is another fallacy, as like successful Covid protocols, we do take actions to deter auto deaths, vehicle safety, recalls, speed limits, seat belt laws, etc.
That said, this is my last Covid post in a monger forum. I've been indulging over a year now so have done my duty. Wink. Plus once you unravel all the Fox News esque nonsense a new one comes along repeating it over again. I have better things to do than go in circles.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JustTK;2567708]I am not from USA so I am neither Dem or Rep, but I can say that I think both parties are disgusting and I would vote for neither[/QUOTE]Well shit. I am from USA and I am neither. On election day I go with whoever is best for my needs at the time. Like I am for guns (which the Reps are but Dems are trying to get rid of) and pro weed (which the Dems claim to be but Biden ain't got the shit legalized yet.) But like you said they are both full of shit.
It would be easy to say that lies have dictated USA politics for way too long, which it has, but that would make a special case of US politics. I imagine lies have dictated politics in nearly every country for too long. Its very said to say that honest politicians are a very rare breed.
[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2567715]Well shit. I am from USA and I am neither. On election day I go with whoever is best for my needs at the time. Like I am for guns (which the Reps are but Dems are trying to get rid of) and pro weed (which the Dems claim to be but Biden ain't got the shit legalized yet.) But like you said they are both full of shit.[/QUOTE]
[URL]https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/covid-origin-steele-dossier/2021/06/10/id/1024588/[/URL]
Here is a study from the Cleveland Clinic on whether to vaccinate previously infected Covid personnel: [URL]https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2[/URL].
Then there are young men who have developed pericarditis and myocarditiis from the vaccines and the CDC is holding in emergency meeting: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/cdc-hold-emergency-meeting-after-100s-suffer-heart-inflammation-following-covid-vaccines[/URL].
Then you have this article in children 0 to 12 and why the vaccine is recommended for a specific subset of children: [URL]https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/marty-makary/93029?xid=nl_mpt_DHE_2021-06-11&eun=g1702169d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily%20Headlines%20Top%20Cat%20HeC%20%202021-06-11&utm_term=NL_Daily_DHE_dual-gmail-definition[/URL].
There really should not be any politics with regards to vaccinations but of course there is.
This is from the NY Times: Eight of the 10 least-vaccinated states are in the South, a reflection of vaccine hesitancy and poor access to health care.
I read this, and I immediately think prejudice against the South, and Republicans are stupid.
Then I go here and read As observed in prior weeks, Black and Hispanic people have received smaller shares of vaccinations compared to their shares of cases and compared to their shares of the total population in most states.
So you can say Republicans are stupid, that is okay, but if you apply that same logic to blacks and Hispanics, then you are a racist piece of shit.
But what is really fucking pathetic that something as important as Covid vaccination has been turned into a political name calling football.
Mojo, my point with all this was that if you want to point someone to the Mayo Clinic page, that is fine, but this whole notion that people who get the vaccine are smart and those who do not are stupid needs to stop. I jumped on you for repeating that sentiment I have heard elsewhere. The vaccine has horrible side effects for some people and the benefit-risk ratio is not positive for everyone.
I apologize for venting with regards to your statement, however I read this stupid NYT comment and I am infuriated that they are politicizing the vaccinations.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2568209]Here is a study from the Cleveland Clinic on whether to vaccinate previously infected Covid personnel: [URL]https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2[/URL].
Then there are young men who have developed pericarditis and myocarditiis from the vaccines and the CDC is holding in emergency meeting: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/cdc-hold-emergency-meeting-after-100s-suffer-heart-inflammation-following-covid-vaccines[/URL].
Then you have this article in children 0 to 12 and why the vaccine is recommended for a specific subset of children: [URL]https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/marty-makary/93029?xid=nl_mpt_DHE_2021-06-11&eun=g1702169d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily%20Headlines%20Top%20Cat%20HeC%20%202021-06-11&utm_term=NL_Daily_DHE_dual-gmail-definition[/URL].
There really should not be any politics with regards to vaccinations but of course there is.
This is from the NY Times: Eight of the 10 least-vaccinated states are in the South, a reflection of vaccine hesitancy and poor access to health care.
I read this, and I immediately think prejudice against the South, and Republicans are stupid.
Then I go here and read As observed in prior weeks, Black and Hispanic people have received smaller shares of vaccinations compared to their shares of cases and compared to their shares of the total population in most states.
So you can say Republicans are stupid, that is okay, but if you apply that same logic to blacks and Hispanics, then you are a racist piece of shit..[/QUOTE]Anyone that calls white GOPers dum must be racist pieces of shit also? Is that what you are positing?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2568209]Here is a study from the Cleveland Clinic on whether to vaccinate previously infected Covid personnel: [URL]https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2[/URL].
Then there are young men who have developed pericarditis and myocarditiis from the vaccines and the CDC is holding in emergency meeting: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/cdc-hold-emergency-meeting-after-100s-suffer-heart-inflammation-following-covid-vaccines[/URL].
Then you have this article in children 0 to 12 and why the vaccine is recommended for a specific subset of children: [URL]https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/marty-makary/93029?xid=nl_mpt_DHE_2021-06-11&eun=g1702169d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily%20Headlines%20Top%20Cat%20HeC%20%202021-06-11&utm_term=NL_Daily_DHE_dual-gmail-definition[/URL].
There really should not be any politics with regards to vaccinations but of course there is.
This is from the NY Times: Eight of the 10 least-vaccinated states are in the South, a reflection of vaccine hesitancy and poor access to health care.
I read this, and I immediately think prejudice against the South, and Republicans are stupid.
Then I go here and read As observed in prior weeks, Black and Hispanic people have received smaller shares of vaccinations compared to their shares of cases and compared to their shares of the total population in most states.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.newsmax.com/thewire/jon-stewart-wuhan-lab-leak-late-show/2021/06/15/id/1025157/[/URL]
If it turns out that CV came from a lab leak.
It would have been caused by rich countries paying for research on potentially lethal viruses (it could quite possibly be the USA that caused all this).
Created by the West, paid for by the West, covered up by the West, vaccinations investigated by the West. But produced in poor countries at cheap prices and exported to the West for Western consumption. The patented by the West, and sold back by the West to the poor countries at inflated prices once their own citizens have been vaxed.
As of end of April, 1 in 4 people in West have been vaxed. 1 in 500 in poor countries have been vaxed. This will cause more people in poor countries to die, and meanwhile the virus will mutate and bite the rich countries in the arse. That seems like moral justice to me for the disgusting morality shown by the West.
[QUOTE=JustTK;2569811]If it turns out that CV came from a lab leak.
It would have been caused by rich countries paying for research on potentially lethal viruses (it could quite possibly be the USA that caused all this).[/QUOTE]But didn't China claim it?