Important Considerations...
Hey Fryer,
Thanks for the nice comments...
I received a PM from a well meaning friend on the board about my circumstances with Angel girl. The content of the PM are as follows, but I have removed the poster's screen name to protect the innocent, and I altered some of the phrasing and wording as not to reveal it's origin. Then I have commented back to him below his PM.
I am open to all commentary about my circumstances. Don't worry about offending my sensibilities. Frankly, I think this kind of dialogue is useful in a public forum. Just don't flame me too harshly :-) My PM amigo was very tactful in his comments to me, and I appreciate that.
Here is the PM that I received:
"Hey, after reading your post I was debating for about an hour about whether I should write this to you. I hope that you take this message in the spirit that it was written.
Through everything I've read by you, you seem to be a sensitive, great person with nothing but the best intentions and I wish more of us American mongers would have the same sensitivity as you.
My concern, though, is for the young lady. For you this is an ultimate GFE. The benefits are high for you and there are very few disadvantages. You have your life in the states and you can come and go as you please. For the chica, this is very real. No Mexican woman, pro or not, enters into a relationship with a man without assuming that it would end in marriage or some sort of higher comittment. Obviously, as you know, she is in such a tough profession and with her religious beliefs she has to be in a minute by minute debate with herself. The fact that she hasn't become bitter is a testiment to her strong personality. But make no mistake, all of these chicas that stay in this line of work will eventually become scarred beyond repair. Guilt is high for women in Mexico and the worst thing that you can be is a woman without "honor."
The scarring doesn't necesarily come from the profession that she practices, it comes from the burned and mutilated relationships that her profession ruins. As a prostitute, she already is an outcast and after every single one of her relationships fail to pan out, she will believe that she is the lowest piece of crap on the planet, that she is unworthy of any love whatsoever. Then, out or necesity, she shuts off her emotions completely. Money becomes the all-important. 99% of the chicas are like that.
So, while honorable on your part, the longer you guys engage in this "relationship," the more she will be hurt after she realizes that things can NEVER happen between you two. Another rejection for a girl who has felt rejected all her life and another proof that she is worthless (at least in her own mind).
Plus, to spend 60 bucks on a date with an uneducated, lower-class girl is a very heady thing. For us it's nothing, but it would be like if you took out a poor girl from rural apalachia and spent 2,000 dollars on her per date. Pretty mind-altering.
So, I know that this is none of my business and I hate to get in bad with you, but these were just a few things I wanted to say. I know many working girls and I consider quite a few friends. I also know their unique psychology and how rejection just tears them apart. They have been rejected by their Fathers, Boyfriends, Neighbors, Children and society at large. Many girls have killed themselves over failed relationships.
Tread softly, my friend. I wish the best for both of you. Make sure she knows the truth about your intentions, even if it costs you a true GFE."
Here is my response to the PM...
These are things that have already weighed quite heavily on my mind. I realize all that you have pointed out, and there is so much psychology, sociology, and economics that influences her infatuation...I deeply understand your points, and they are all quite valid.
I really did not start out with any intention of bringing things to this level. The relationship has simply come to this point, and now I am as captivated by her as she apparently is by me. She is so loving, and so affectionate...even with the little things. These are the things I love about her...not just the sex with a hard bodied 24 year old girl. I have told her this. We are both happy just to be around each other, no matter what we are doing, even routine, otherwise boring things.
I have told her very specifically that there is no way that we will be together "officially." I've explained our age differences. I have explained that I like living the US, and that I will not be able to move to MTY because of many reasons, business, family, etc...I have told her how impractical that is, and I have explained that she is such a beautiful girl that she should have no problem finding love from a man that is closer to her age. She just tells me that she can't find anyone that she wants, even though, according to her, many, many, guys have apparently offered. She says they are all mal hombres, and she would not consider them. I even told her to look in her iglasia for a good guy, but she just starts to cry and tells me she loves me.
I have promised her that I will come back to see her once a month, and that I do honestly love her, and I do. I have told her I will come back to her each time I visit MTY and that I will see no other girls, and I have kept that promise to her. I intend to keep that promise to her for as long as this lasts. Frankly, I do not expect it to last, and I have told her so.
I have told her that I will stay with her as long as she wants me. But, I have also told her that it is early in our "relationship" and that I expect her perspective to change. I have told her to take everything very slowly. I have told her that in my regular one month long absences from MTY, I expect that she will long for what we have when I am there, a loving relationship, and that she will begin to look for it, and that I believe she will find it as a result of a void that will exist when I am gone. I have told her that I expect to have a broken heart, probably sooner than later.
Of course, she is tells me it is not possible. But, I know how this kind of thing goes. Frankly, this is not the first time for me with this kind of infatuiaton. It has occurred in at least one other circumstance in MTY, and possibly as many as two instances in Monterrey, and all have ended the same way. The girls like what they experience, miss it, and they go looking for it in my absence.
I don't mean to sound like I am conceited about my own abilities. Frankly, I think I simply know how to wine and dine a women from a poor background, and to sweep them off their feet, intellectually, affectionately, sexually, etc...If I were to pull the same routine in the States I would probably get almost nowhere. Fact is, the age difference alone will kill the deal to begin with.
However, philosophically, I have commented in the past about how the young girls in the States could be romanced by us "old geezers" if our sociology in the States were different. One thing that I rejoice in, something that I profoundly realize after having been with numerous young girls worldwide, is that they are still attracted to me, even at middle age, whereas that is not usually the case with respect to men being attracted to older women. It is very comforting to know that in the privacy of one's hotel room, the inhabitions are non-existent, and the true nature of their attraction becomes evident in their swoons, affection, kissing, hugging, etc...
As the PM poster suggested, most of the girls that we come in contact with as mongers are "cold" as ice because they have chosen to be. I do NOT seek those types out, but long for the quality of relationship I currently have with my angel girl. They are few and far between because most of them, as the PM poster also pointed out, have protected their vulnerability and switched off their emotions. Angel girl is truly bliss on earth because she is totally open to me.
I have practiced this worldwide, and it aint that hard to sweep them off their feet if they want to be swept off their feet, verdad? This girl liked me initially, and now she loves me because we have spent some really nice quality time together, the kind of quality time she dreams about for herself. I have merely treated her just like I would treat almost any of them if given the opportunity.
Absence does not make the heart grow fonder, it makes the heart look elsewhere. I expect my month long absences to sabatage what I have with my angel. So, from my perspective, I am totally realistic. But, I am also mindful of my actions, and the effects my actions might have on my angel. So, I am committed to keeping my word to her, whatever sparse commitments I may have made.
I will see no other girls on salida as long as she maintains her attraction to me, as long as I sense the depth of her emotion. If I begin to feel that her emotional bondage has started to loosen, I will slowly, and gently let her go. I know that is really the only possible outcome to this in the end.
But, on the other hand, if she maintains her attachment long term, I will make sure that I nurture her spirit, and that I give her my sincere and committed love when I am in Monterrey. She deserves that, and I would never choose to hurt her. If her's is a long term infatuation, I do not look at that as being bad. I intend to nurture things along so we both enjoy the ride. But, I also am realistic, and I know that with most Mexican bar girls, something always messes it up.
Addendum/Afterthoughts...
I sincerely appreciate your comments. It helps me keep everything in the proper perspective. But, I have some observations, at least from the perspective of a visiting Gringo. Perhaps these Gringo observations will be understandable to you, but they will be comments that might be more likely lost on, or misinterpreted by, the average Mexican that does not have your experience with our sociology in the US.
We have discussed the class structure and the racism that exists within the Mexican culture. It is similar to our culture in the US, where the african americans of our culture are similiarly regarded when compared to blonde haired, blue eyed, Pamela Anderson types.
With respect to comment #1 from your previous post, "P, "J," and "X" are commenting from a totally racist perspective, one that is understood strictly by Mexican standards. I don't mean that in a critical sense, but merely offer it as an explanation. I do NOT make selections based on Mexican standards of beauty, and I have no appreciation for the class positioning that effects the overall attitudes of most Mexicanas.
Just as Thai men do not regard darked skinned girls of Thailand to be beautiful, but instead regard them as ugly hillbillies, many Westerners find the dark skinned Thai girls far preferable to the light skinned girls. The Thai men routinely laugh at Westerners that select the darked skinned girl, girls that are HOT, HOT, HOT to us Westerners. Remember when we showed the pictures of the dark skinned Philipinas to the girls in the "O" and "P" places. I assure you, those Philipinas are HOT, HOT, HOT in every sense of the word as it relates to US male preferences.
The fact is, most Mexican bar girls are so introspective that they miss the mark entirely when I take them on salida. They simply do not understand what makes me "tick." Frankly, I suspect most of them haven't a clue how to please me. Most of them, were I to select them for salida, will never be bar fined more than once. I do not want to spend the hard earned cash on girls that do not understand what I like, nor do I want to spend the money on girls that do not have the conscientiousness to find out what I like.
That is the problem, verdad...most of the girls are too thick headed to understand what they need to be doing to make me happy. They are applying a stereotypical generic Mexican formula of performance when on salida, one that does not address my criteria. They are too narrowly focused on their routine to deviate from what they think I want.
There are so many Mexican girls that, upon finishing their salidas, have insisted on giving me their phone numbers so I can call them back for more salidas. Many of them aren't worth a shit. I have literally thrown their phone numbers in the trash after they have left my room. But, they all think in their minds that they are God's gift to male sexuality. I will never call them for a second chance at bat.
I don't mean this to sound critical of "P," "X," or "J" as viable HOT selections made by my amigos in MTY, because all of those girl certainly are HOT girls. But, I am merely saying that most girls I have bar fined, especially in MTY, fall far short of "G's" performance with me.
I speculate that my preferences are more emotionally based than most mongers, and that having a deeper emotional relationship with the girl is a huge catalyst to great sex. The closeness provides the intensity of emotion that I enjoy when sex does occur.
I doubt most of the girls we know in the clubs would be sharp enough to understand my need for this, much less sensitive enough to actually realize that their own sexual experiences would be enhanced by the same kind of performance that I am getting from "G." Afterall, females are the gender that appreciates the romance, the communication, and the closeness.
I once made a comment to "G" that I didn't think that girls really gave a shit about sex. Certainly, my personal opionion is that the quality of sex is significantly enhanced when love is present, not because we need it as males, but because females exhibit so much more emotional commitment to the act when love is present. "G" told me that sex in the privados is of no consequence to her, that it is totally and completely meaningless to her, just a means to make money, nothing more. Then, several days later, she commented during sex with me that the intensity of sex for her was so satisfying because love existed between us, at least from her perspective. That is such an insightful glimpse into the female mind, one that is profoundly revealing.
Frankly, I experience this kind of GFE performance from Mexican girls that allow me to get close enough so that I get to know them. The longer I know them, the closer I am able to get to them, and the closer I seem to be able to solicit the GFE performance I desire from them. But, with most Mexican girls, it takes a while to break down their defenses. With most, I tire of the chase and give up on working any romantic magic on them. It is truly their loss because they are the gender that is most comforted by such levels of intimacy.
But, once the girls relax their defenses, and surrender their emotions, they usually decide that they really enjoy the experience so much more. But, as my PM friend indicated, most of the girls have a wall around them, a wall to protect themselves. Sometimes these walls are so thick they are inpenetrable.
Between "G" and me, there is simply no wall. She desires the same things I desire from an encounter. I have known her a long time. We are now very close to one another, and it pays off in GFE. I can uncategorically say that there are few girls, worldwide, that have compared in GFE quality to the "G" spot.
But, there again, she chose me. I doubt she would deliver that quality on salida to just anybody. Fact is, on our first encounter, she did not deliver that level of intensity. It was only after she got to know me that she became interested, deciding that she wanted the closeness. Then, once we became more intimate as friends, everything came together sexually.
I speak from a perspective that is wholey based on my own specific Gringo criteria. I know my criteria are not typical of the average monger, and that my preference for GFE sopmetimes seems to far surpass human understanding :-) but, none the less, "G" gets it done completely, and with total and complete sincerity.
The other girls think she is a cow, but she is an angel to me...really!!! They should take lessons from her.
With respect to your comment #5, that is my first rule of thumb. Never disclose your personal circumstances at home to a bar girl. I have learned my lesson in this regard, and I promise you that it will totally squash your chances at getting good GFE encounters. The girls DO NOT like being the other woman. It is not that they are neccessarily being virtuous. It's more a matter of them wanting all the attention, and not liking it when a man claims to be interested in them while they have a wife sitting at home. I never disclose such details. IMHO, there is no reason to do so. When you disclose those details, you are telling them more than they are entitled to know, and certainly, you are sabotaging any prospect of getting the quality of GFE performance that I enjoy. Of course, if GFE is not the issue, then it is merely a matter of confidentiality about your personal circumstances that should take precedent.
With respect to your comment #10, I agree with that. With respect to "G," I have told her to expect nothing more, no legitimacy. But, I have also made commitments to her that I will "love" her, just the way she likes it, whenever I come to town. She likes that, and I like the result of my doing that. So, I am having fun, nothing more. The moment my endeavors fail to result in the responses I enjoy from her, I will move on. I will move on, but I will also give my efforts at moving on caring contemplation so as not to hurt my friend. When I make friends with the girls, I do not take their friendship lightly, and I treat them with as much caring consideration as possible.
[QUOTE=Carlos Perez]Addendum and afterthoughts:
1. am not kidding about the Inf girls being critic of us. This week 2 girls, P and X openly told me "how can you f**k a cow". Of course refering to G Spot.
2. Am 48 years old. On friday one of the girls at the Infi, Z (friend to J and X), came up to me and told me "don't you like me or what the f**k".
3. Girls at the Infi are there for the money and it is tough to make a realationship with them but some are so straighforward that you'll be surprised.
4. Girls at the clubs tend to "like" older men and I repeat "like" (quote unquote), cause we treat them diffrently form the younger generations of guys that only think for themselves and really see the girls as trash.
5. They really see us as weird, nice guys, willing to spend money on them, worse of all and almost all the girls have told me this, "if you are so nice, how come you are not at home with your wife"... this really make me think.
6. I never expect anything from them and I make them clear that they should not expect anything from me. Anyway, many get angry with me when they realize that I have many friends at the clubs, which they shouldn't but they do cause of course, am paying.
7. They have a monetary heart, but a heart after all. They are human beings. And bound to fall and make mistakes as we do. I've had 2 or 3 Lambs that think that Iam falling in love with them. I make pretty clear that my purpose in life is to have fun with them not fall in love with them.
8. Iam am honest to them. My married life comes first and am willing to let hell fall on them than risk my normal life.
9. It is tough, but Iam not going to put my hands in fire for them.
10. Everything adds to, if you know your ways in the clubs, you can have so much fun, but that it, nothing more... period.[/QUOTE]
I Love All This Cross-Cultural Sociology/Psychology
Well, last week I knew that USB was in MTY and there were no reports. Then, BANG!, Wow! What interesting stuff. I am happy to have "experienced" MTY so that I can semi-relate to what you are talking about.
I too, have had a lot of experience with other cultures and relationships. Not on a physical level, but on a spiritual level. Hard to describe this, but in many ways they are the same as the soul is exposed in each.
I had several "extra" relationships while I was married. I have now been single for several years. (I'm 47) The understanding and desires of a person who is single and one that is married seem to me to be completely different. It is hard for a married person to understand this. Married people seem to be searching for intimacy that is not in their current situation. I know that I was. Single people seem to be searching for someone to fill the lonliness in their lives. Single people are not necessarily looking for intimacy or GFE. Maybe that is because 1)they've been there, done that, or 2)they have given up on finding genuine intimacy in ANY relationship. Who knows?
I really enjoy the reports here. I cannot believe the "thought" that you guys put into all of this. Most of what you have said is dead right.
Thanks for all your honesty.
I respect your position...
Carlos,
I sincerely respect your honesty with the girls, and in your circumstance, living in Monterrey, and because most of your encounters are within the clubs and not on salida, I can fully appreciate the merits of that strategy for you, and the limited downside to make those disclosures to the girls in advance. You are in a position to work your charms on them over time, to slowly develop the relationships between you and the girls, breaking down their inhabitions over the marriage issue. But, I am only there a short time each month.
I have to make my endeavors count, and quickly. I simply don't have the time to work your kind of magic on them. So, I choose not to disclose the one factor that I know will kill the deal. I have found that if I disclose that factor, the availability of GFE is almost non-existent. There would simply be no reason for me to return to Monterrey, other than, of course to visit you and your family, my amigos, etc...There would otherwise be no reason to return to Monterrey if the girls are holding back on me due to my personal circumstances.
In the case of "G," the traditional mongering wisdom is not comfortable with the bar girl enjoying our time together. Enjoyment for females has more to do with emotion than sex. It seems that mongers are more comfortable if services are provided in a cold and calculating manner. The truth is, I have made her delivery of those services enjoyable for her. She is seemingly very happy, and tells me how happy she is, almost every moment I am with her.
So, I have to ask myself, which is worse, to make her happy to the best of my ability, or to simply use her sexually, with no emotional nurturing for her in the deal. Ignorance is Bliss...If I start in telling her all of my personal circumstances, it is certain to dampen her enjoyment. She is still going to be available to provide the services if I pay the salida regardless of whether she knows my personal circumstances. So, what is the benefit of her knowing?
She is in the business of providing sexual favors. I am merely giving her something she does not get otherwise in return. I am giving something of myself to her, emotional love that is sincere, something that all girls really need much more than sex. She is very, very, happy. To tell her my personal circumstances would ruin the warmth and emotional nurturing that she lacks on a daily basis, especially lacking as a result of her chosen profession. Believe me when I say, she is not getting the same thing elsewhere, and she is very melacholy over the lack of it. If I tell her the truth, it all stops...
I do feel guilty not telling "G" the truth, and I have contemplated explaining the truth to her. I have a real soft spot in my heart for her, and I feel terrible about lying to her. But, her knowing my personal circumstances will change nothing with respect to her own obligation to provide the service. I have already told her there is no way we will be together in the conventional sense, and I have been quite firm about it.
My plan is to eventually tell her my personal circumstances when the time is right. It is still very early in our relationship, and I do intend to let her know eventually, to let her see that I can still come to town and give her what she needs regardless of my personal circumstances. It goes against my better judgement to tell a bar girl anything, but in her case, to me, she is much more than just a bar girl. I want to convince her that we can still have the same emotionally nurturing times together, and I am hoping that she will need me more than her religious and social taboos limit her internally once I tell her.
Generally speaking with regard to bar fining the girls, especially the first or second times, when I pay the money to bring the girls back to my room on salida, desiring them to usually stay beyond that normal range of time, 1.5 hours, and to stay because they want to stay, I have found that most of them are inhibited knowing they are with a married man.
Even with Cindy #1, it was the single most important factor in that entire affair ending prematurely. Cindy #1 is not a Mexican girl of significantly high regilous upbringing, and I have concluded that if the marriage issue is one of consequence for her, then a girl with high moral religious character would find it extremely distasteful. I have discovered over the last five years that knowledge of that fact has a significant dampening effect on the quality of my encounters with Mexican girls. If I can not find the GFE in Mexico, I've concluded that I will have to travel elsewhere to get it.
But, I like Monterrey, and I don't want to be flying off to Costa Rica, Columbia, Asia, etc...just to get the GFE's that I know exist there otherwise, places were the marriage issue does not seem to effect todo la noche or the quality of GFE. I am attempting to make the Monterrey experience work for me, and up to now, it has been working quite well in comparison to those austensibly better destinations.
Instead, I choose not to disclose my personal circumstances to them. But, instead, I choose to firmly explain to them the other reasons why I can not be with them permenantly; business, family, assets in the US, citizenship in the US, just all the plethera of reasons why it is impractical for me to move to Monterrey to be with them.
Even if I were completely free for the taking, it would not make any difference. I realize that sociologically, educationally, intellectually, age, and in almost every other way, I am simply not a match-up for most bar girls, Mexicanas or otherwise. It just simply would not work. I don't bring that directly to their attention because it would hurt their feelings, but it is profoundly obvious that such a class match is doomed to failure, notwithstanding the prostituted bar girl background, which is a whole other discussion.
I have told "G" that I will not relocate to Monterrey, that there is NO future for her with me, at least not one of permenent legitimacy. I have explained all the reasons to her, reasons that do not relate to my personal circumstances at home, but reasons that ARE sufficient to stand on their own merits.
I must also point out that with most bar girls, the depth of emotional bonding is not as strong as what "G" and I have encountered. But, of course, recently I have gone through what I believe might be the same problem with "Angry Girl." Remember, she was continually asking me to move to Monterrey. But, of course, I explained the same things to her about it not being practical, etc...
Frankly, I see her eventual reactions to me as emotional, and not anything whatsoever to do with business, or whether I offended her with my comments to her in the privados, etc...I think her emotional reactions were a result of my pursuing other girls in front of her face after she severed our relationship. Her reactions to me following that drama simply do not make sense. Imagine her indignation when she finds out that I am dating "G," a girl that they all think of as lower standard, especially when she realizes she has been rejected in favor of a girl that they all see as lower standard than themselves. I will undoubtedly have hell to pay.
With respect to your comments about religion and Mexican society, I find your comments instructive and insightful.
"We as upper to high class go to church to thank God for our money.
Lower classes are inseeded to think that through God they will find relief from poverty.
And both lower and upper classes, depending on the upbringing are expected to go to church more than one day a week, far beyond the Sunday service we are supposed to attend.
I know the son (17-18 year old) of an importan industrial leader here that boasts that he goes to church on a daily basis.
Another industrial chieftain is a debout Virgin of Guadalupe follower.
Going to church is as a daily basis routine as is coffee and apple pie to Americans.
Please do not use that as a measuring rod for our society."
While you probably don't understand my admiration of these religious bonds within Mexican society, I truly admire the commitment to church within your culture, and I found it to be an extremely comforting thing about "G," especially with respect to her desire that I attend with her. I do not measure your society based on it's being centered around religion, but I do measure individuals based on my interpretation of their legitimate commitments to their religion. I believe "G" to have the courage of her convictions, and I respect that a great deal in her.
It shows a depth of inherent character in her that transcends the otherwise damning label that attaches to a bar girl and her activities. I remember "G" asking me the depth of my own spirituality, and her relief at knowning that, while I am not a Catholic, our belief systems are the same.
It is the content of her character with respect to her religious convictions, convictions that are not sociological in nature, but seemingly legitimately religious on her part, notwithstanding the bar girl baggage, that makes me love her a lot. Her religious convictions are a window that discloses the purity of her soul, regardless of her daily activities in the bar. Frankly, in my assessment, it is what seperates her from her critics in the bar, and what makes her more beautiful and desireable than most of them could ever hope to be.
[QUOTE=Carlos Perez]As USB says on my #5 point: They really see us as weird, nice guys, willing to spend money on them, worse of all and almost all the girls have told me this, "if you are so nice, how come you are not at home with your wife"... this really make me think.
Well first of all I meant Iam totally honest with them in the sense that Iam a married man with family and I do not tell lies to them (I never hide the fact am married), also in the sense that I openly tell them that I go to a bunch of clubs and if a girl in particular doesn´t do well I have plenty from where to choose from (I never hide the fact that I have a large Flock).
I must counter USB with that. Personally I always think that the girls prefer honesty above sugar tainted lies. And that has gotten me in serious trouble, even if am paying girls for sex (envy is a horrible monster).
I meant on "this really make me think" just on the fact that why am I seeing hookers et al, not on the fact that I should lie.
I forgot to add this on my last post: As is the G Spot girl, Iam a devout Mexican Catholic. It is hard for nonCatholics to undestand the upbringing we've had in a country where religion still is important in every corner of our society. One that is the mayor religon here.
Let's set aside differences in religion for a second for the benefit of an explanation.
We as upper to high class go to church to thank God for our money.
Lower classes are inseeded to think that through God they will find relief from poverty.
And both lower and upper classes, depending on the upbringing are expected to go to church more than one day a week, far beyond the Sunday service we are supposed to attend.
I know the son (17-18 year old) of an importan industrial leader here that boasts that he goes to church on a daily basis.
Another industrial chieftain is a debout Virgin of Guadalupe follower.
Going to church is as a daily basis routine as is coffee and apple pie to Americans.
Please do not use that as a measuring rod for our society.[/QUOTE]