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[QUOTE=Syzygies;1842526] Tightly run? I do agree though that paying first or paying the same amount after obviously makes no difference unless the customer intends not to pay when he did not like the service provided. Otherwise he is just psychologically fooling himself.
Of course each guy's view of good service varies so much as well. What I like and what Goatscrot likes are completely different, it seems.
Sometimes the money is blown. The girl was pathetic. E.g. Vodka at Candy was totally pathetic for me. I have no idea why. Money was paid. I did not have the gall to ask for it back. I may have made an off comment on the way out. Cannot remember. What is the point? The girl can always make up some excuse why we terminated so quick like I was demanding bareback. It would just be my word against hers.[/QUOTE]Was at Annie's once and the gal was a complete dud. I was only in the room for about 15 min and went out and asked for my money back. Mamasan asked if I had "finished" and the answer was no. She gave me a complete refund. I always have stones to ask for money back if services promised are not delivered. And yes, we have every right to do that. Yes, paying after makes a psychological difference to the provider. She is then more apt to perform with the knowledge that good service might result in more money and less service might present her with a problem. And as well it should be.
What's the point? I am sure you are not the only one who received poor service from her. If guys tell the mamasan and ask for money back and this gal has it happen several times the mamasan will do something about it. An excuse from the gal may work once, but if she continues to do that she will be "found out. " Don't complain and she will continue to get away with poor service.
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[QUOTE=Syzygies;1841851]Your first paragraph is just your knowledgeable fantasizing. You always know would happen if you did something. You cannot accept real information that is contrary to your fantasies. Must always be lies. I report what I see and hear from actual experiences, not imaginings.[/QUOTE]Syzygies, the only way you could report from what you actually saw and heard about a bargirl deliverying decent service as negotiated or agreed upon yet still being ripped off several times over the course of a few months by customers who paid her nothing at all for ST is if you were in the room at the time as either that customer or as a witness.
Were you that customer who ripped off the girls? Were you a witness to everything that happened in the room?
Neither you nor I nor the mamasan nor that girl's best friend nor her closest blood relative could possibly know what you say you know from what you saw and heard. It is all opinion and, at most, informed judgement. Including yours.
And my opinion and informed judgement tells me that if a Thai P4 P girl is plagued by a significant pattern of 100% non payment of any money at all for her services, the best advice she could get for how to solve that problem would have much to do with improving her service level. Going to a pay upfront system would only exacerbate the most likely problems rather than solve them.
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[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1842567]Was at Annie's once and the gal was a complete dud. I was only in the room for about 15 min and went out and asked for my money back. Mamasan asked if I had "finished" and the answer was no. She gave me a complete refund. I always have stones to ask for money back if services promised are not delivered. And yes, we have every right to do that. Yes, paying after makes a psychological difference to the provider. She is then more apt to perform with the knowledge that good service might result in more money and less service might present her with a problem. And as well it should be.
What's the point? I am sure you are not the only one who received poor service from her. If guys tell the mamasan and ask for money back and this gal has it happen several times the mamasan will do something about it. An excuse from the gal may work once, but if she continues to do that she will be "found out. " Don't complain and she will continue to get away with poor service.[/QUOTE]Agree. Also, a customer who shrugs off being scammed by a P4 P provider when the situation clearly calls for a complaint or at least the request for a refund is essentially a passive contributor to the economic hardship of the "honest" and conscientious providers in that venue. We are the only quality control agents in the system. Low demand customers armed with one excuse after another for it is the bane of any P4 P destination. Far more damaging to it than overpaying, IMO.
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[QUOTE=KenDavis03;1836488]Day time freelancers at Gulivers? The place on Soi 5? Good to know.[/QUOTE]Back in the US now after a nice trip to BKK. I can confirm that day time freelancers are happening at Gullivers. I haven't been there in years, and it was pretty quiet when I went in at around 4. But, there were a handful of girls hanging around and at least 2 or 3 of them were obviously pros. One was extremely nice looking!
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[QUOTE=EihTooms;1842662]Agree. Also, a customer who shrugs off being scammed by a P4 P provider when the situation clearly calls for a complaint or at least the request for a refund is essentially a passive contributor to the economic hardship of the "honest" and conscientious providers in that venue. We are the only quality control agents in the system. Low demand customers armed with one excuse after another for it is the bane of any P4 P destination. Far more damaging to it than overpaying, IMO.[/QUOTE]Very well stated. Same goes for any service or product one purchases. When I have a bad meal in a restaurant, I tell them. And hey, it's not just for my satisfaction but it is doing them a favor as well. If they want to be successful they need to improve. If they don't they might be out of business. Business owners want to make money and want to know. I have found that the owners at most PSE places are quite interested in ensuring that the customer is happy and will be back. If a gal needs a bit more training or has some holes in her skill set I will tell the mamasan nicely. The only time I "complain" is if there is no effort on the part of the gal and / or if she does not deliver what was agreed upon.
The amount of money a P4 P gal can earn almost anywhere in the world is astronomical compared to average wages. For the punter to "feel sorry" for or as the Thais say "song san" the worker is really ludicrous. The top two earners at Baccarat are pulling in about 300 K Baht per month. And folks that is a lot of money; that puts them way into the top 1% in Thailand. And I'll just bet that's a lot of money in your home nation as well. A mediocre looking gal who provides great service can bank as well. I know quite a few oily gals who are just a 6 or so on the looks scale and average about 4 to 5 bookings a day. And that's over 150 K per month. So feel sorry for them and cut them slack when they don't perform? A thousand times no. I am spending my hard earned and saved money. If I don't get value I will let them know.
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[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1842730]The amount of money a P4 P gal can earn almost anywhere in the world is astronomical compared to average wages. The top two earners at Baccarat are pulling in about 300 K Baht per month. And folks that is a lot of money; that puts them way into the top 1% in Thailand. And I'll just bet that's a lot of money in your home nation as well. I am spending my hard earned and saved money. [/QUOTE]Why does this topic keep coming up? And from this guy who says he lives here and keeps posting over and over about more or less the same things?
For what these girls have to do for their money, there is no comparison to 'average wage. ' No comparison. The only comparison would be to Mister Scrot who talks about his 'hard earned' cash and for whom $7000 usd (equivalent) a month in his home nation is 'a lot'.
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Watch your pockets
Buddy and I were walking along Sukhumvit and this short middle eastern guy came down some stairs and bumped into me. Luckily all my stuff was in the other pockets and I always wear shorts with velcro closers. Anyway, he starts to follow behind us so I tell my buddy to wait a minute and we walk into a hotel drive. The guy was coming up fast behind us and since I didn't look back before deciding to change our direction he went right past us. We then continued on and the guy tried again to get behind us. After several glances back he went the other way. We then turn a corner and see another middle eastern guy on some steps scoping out our pockets as we passed.
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[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1842565]It's very relevant. P4 P is purchasing a service, same as any other service. Why do we need to pay after? Because if the money has changed hands before the service is rendered there is no need to provide good service. The incentive is gone. This is especially true in Thailand where almost no one is concerned with tomorrow or repeat business. And you yourself say the mamasans don't care and they don't. The power that we have is our wallets. So if the service is not what has been agreed upon then less money is paid, which is only fair.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1842567]Was at Annie's once and the gal was a complete dud. I was only in the room for about 15 min and went out and asked for my money back. Mamasan asked if I had "finished" and the answer was no. She gave me a complete refund. I always have stones to ask for money back if services promised are not delivered. And yes, we have every right to do that. Yes, paying after makes a psychological difference to the provider. She is then more apt to perform with the knowledge that good service might result in more money and less service might present her with a problem. And as well it should be.
What's the point? I am sure you are not the only one who received poor service from her. If guys tell the mamasan and ask for money back and this gal has it happen several times the mamasan will do something about it. An excuse from the gal may work once, but if she continues to do that she will be "found out. " Don't complain and she will continue to get away with poor service.[/QUOTE]There is a bit of tension between your two posts Goatscrot. On the one hand you relate an experience where 15 minutes into the session you knew it was a dud and the mamasan then gave you your money back (and I'm sure this did not redound well to the girl's standing with her employer), but in the other post you state that if we pay before a session the girl will have no incentive to give good service. The fact is if a girl knows she will for bad service receive complaints, or bad internet reviews, or what have you, there still maybe an incentive to perform well (although perhaps it doesn't register with some girls).
I earlier suggested the danger of paying in advance correlates with the type of establishment you are dealing with. For example, I don't think there is a big risk paying in advance at a PSE Oily, particularly if well-managed, but there would be a big risk paying in advance at a go-go that has mama-sans who don't give a s**t so long as they get their barfines that day. And there are, of course, situations between these two extremes.
So, I'm not sure there are strict rules to follow; rather one should assess the particular situation and let that guide what you are willing to do. And although if one is particularly low-risk insisting on never paying in advance in every situation might work, it also will mean missing some good opportunities, at least that would have been the case in my experience where I have had a few fantastic sessions where I paid in advance.
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[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1842798]There is a bit of tension between your two posts Goatscrot. On the one hand you relate an experience where 15 minutes into the session you knew it was a dud and the mamasan then gave you your money back (and I'm sure this did not redound well to the girl's standing with her employer), but in the other post you state that if we pay before a session the girl will have no incentive to give good service.
I earlier suggested the danger of paying in advance correlates with the type of establishment you are dealing with. For example, I don't think there is a big risk paying in advance at a PSE Oily, particularly if well-managed, but there would be a big risk paying in advance at a go-go that has mama-sans who don't give a s**t so long as they get their barfines that day. And there are, of course, situations between these two extremes.
So, I'm not sure there are strict rules to follow; rather one should access the particular situation and let that guide what you are willing to do. And although if one is particularly low-risk insisting on never paying in advance in every situation might work, it also will mean missing some good opportunities, at least that would have been the case in my experience where I have had a few fantastic sessions where I paid in advance.[/QUOTE]LA Guy, point taken, although I really don't see tension in the posts. And yes, the mamasan at Annie's actually cares about repeat business. Many, dare I say most, do not, and that is why I made the point that I did.
Perhaps my worst experience was at Nancy about 6 or 7 years ago. Took a gal, paid, and went to the room. No kissing, no fingering, no BBBJ. Got dressed, went out, spoke to the papasan, and got no satisfaction. Dude just shrugged his shoulders. Never went back. In hindsight I should have never gotten dressed, rather called the papasan to the room. Think at that point I would have at least gotten a change of gals.
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[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1842798]I earlier suggested the danger of paying in advance correlates with the type of establishment you are dealing with. For example, I don't think there is a big risk paying in advance at a PSE Oily, particularly if well-managed, but there would be a big risk paying in advance at a go-go that has mama-sans who don't give a s**t so long as they get their barfines that day. And there are, of course, situations between these two extremes.[/QUOTE]One the risks of paying upfront in almost any venue, including some so-called PSE oilies, but particularly with go-go girls, beer bar girls and so on is something I don't think I have seen anyone mention here during this particular discussion. And this is one case where I am 100% certain no P4 P girls encouraged to supply tales of woe about their customers' bad behavior would ever voluntarily admit they have ever done when it stands to reason they have done it in at least some cases.
But there are many times when these girls deserve to be shorted on their pay by a large percentage if not reduced right down to nothing but taxi fare EVEN THOUGH Full Service with you was very much on offer in the room and arguably even if she has performed a BBBJ for you.
That would be when a private discussion between the two of you in the bar established that she would be fine with BBFS or BBBJ CIM with you but that isn't the way it turned out in the room at all after she pulls one of those infamous Jekyll & Hyde transformations or threw the "Yes in the bar-No in the room" bit at you. Sure, she can change her mind right up to the moment of truth. No problem. We're not talking about forcing her to do anything. But that means you can also change your mind about how much you will pay her as well. If you have paid some mamasan all of it upfront, you've got nothing but thin air on your side when it comes to getting some or all of that money back and discouraging the lies.
Of course, the only part of it the girls are likely to fill a sympathetic ear to those tales of woe with is the part where "He wanted me to boom boom without condom!" or "He wanted to cum in my mouth! I cannot do!!", followed by, "Then he refused to pay me anything!!!"
But my guess is none of them will ever admit that one or both of those activities was precisely what she agreed to in the bar in order to convince him to pay her barfine in the first place and maybe buy her a couple of extra Lady Drinks while we're at it.
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[QUOTE=EihTooms;1842817]One the risks of paying upfront in almost any venue, including some so-called PSE oilies, but particularly with go-go girls, beer bar girls and so on is something I don't think I have seen anyone mention here during this particular discussion. And this is one case where I am 100% certain no P4 P girls encouraged to supply tales of woe about their customers' bad behavior would ever admit they have ever done when it stands to reason they have done it in at least some cases.
But there are many times when these girls deserve to be shorted on their pay by a large percentage if not reduced right down to nothing but taxi fare EVEN THOUGH Full Service with you was very much on offer in the room and arguably even if she has performed a BBBJ for you.
That would be when a private discussion between the two of you in the bar established that she would be fine with BBFS or BBBJ CIM with you but that isn't the way it turned out in the room at all after she pulls one of those infamous Jekyll & Hyde transformations or threw the "Yes in the bar-No in the room" bit at you. Sure, she can change her mind right up to the moment of truth. No problem. We're not talking about forcing her to do anything. But that means you can also change your mind about how much you will pay her as well. If you have paid some mamasan all of it upfront, you've got nothing but thin air on your side when it comes to getting some or all of that money back and discouraging the lies.
The only part of it the girls are likely to fill a sympathetic ear to those tales of woe is the part where "He wanted me to boom boom without condom!" or "He wanted to cum in my mouth! I cannot do!!", followed by, "Then he refused to pay me anything!!!"
But my guess is none of them will ever admit that one or both of those activities was precisely what she agreed to in the bar in order to convince him to pay her barfine in the first place and maybe an extra Lady Drink or two while we're at it.[/QUOTE]Well out of curiosity, and since you mentioned this example among others in your post, have you actually negotiated BBFS at any PSE oily in advance of the session? My question is not to be confused with whether you have gotten BBFS at a PSE oily, rather whether you actually raised this before taking the girl upstairs. It seems to me that probably wouldn't work out too well, but maybe I'm wrong.
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[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1842824]Well out of curiosity, and since you mentioned this example among others in your post, have you actually negotiated BBFS at any PSE oily in advance of the session? My question is not to be confused with whether you have gotten BBFS at a PSE oily, rather whether you actually raised this before taking the girl upstairs. It seems to me that probably wouldn't work out too well, but maybe I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]I have gotten agreements for BBFS and BBBJ CIM with girls sitting outside MPs / PSE oilies and not even gone into the shop, just paid their barfine and taken them back to my apartment. Have to say, those have been the only note-worthy times I have ever spent with MP girls. I have never had an experience worth repeating inside their shops and most have been downright horrible. I have gone to PSE oilies and been assured by the mamasan that BBBJ CIM is "standard, all the girls do that" when in one case the girl said within 2 minutes of walking into the VIP room that, BTW, CIM is NOT something she ever does and won't be doing this time either. lol
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[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1842730]
The amount of money a P4 P gal can earn almost anywhere in the world is astronomical compared to average wages. For the punter to "feel sorry" for or as the Thais say "song san" the worker is really ludicrous. The top two earners at Baccarat are pulling in about 300 K Baht per month. And folks that is a lot of money; that puts them way into the top 1% in Thailand. And I'll just bet that's a lot of money in your home nation as well. A mediocre looking gal who provides great service can bank as well. I know quite a few oily gals who are just a 6 or so on the looks scale and average about 4 to 5 bookings a day. And that's over 150 K per month. So feel sorry for them and cut them slack when they don't perform? A thousand times no. I am spending my hard earned and saved money. If I don't get value I will let them know.[/QUOTE]Can earn and does earn are not exactly the same. I believe a very low percentage of Bangkok working girls are getting over 150 K per month consistently. I don't see many girls getting multiple Barfines per night. I don't see so many girls are getting lots of bookings per day in Oilies. Most Oilies seem to be very quiet. Even a busy shop like addict has a large number of girls to share the customers.
What about girls doing LT? They would need to make 5 K, 30 days per month to get to 150 K. Ha ha. No that is unreasonable. They just don't make it to that amount. They need time off. Okay I neglected her monthly salary which could be 14 K if she was reliable and did not get docked earnings at all. Many girls lose large parts of monthly salary and often get no salary at all. A few diligent ones retain most of the salary. I also neglected her drink commissions. If she sold 100 drinks at 60 baht each, that is another 6 K (not huge) and difficult to achieve for girls doing a lot of LT bookings. They often arrive at bar with the customer in tow, or already waiting, and get barfined almost immediately and soon head off.
Plenty of girls got no fuck for their day's work. Lucky if they managed more than money for taxi home on some days. In one portable bar on the street I saw that one girl was getting barfined consistently each night and one ladyboy the same, and the others struggled somewhat. One or two don't go with customers at all, just trying to sell drinks.
Sure there are the big earners. But what percentage of girls are in that category? 5% or less? Well done to those who make big money despite some what average looks. That is not easy.
I believe only the "Super Stars" are making 150 K per month, and I haven't found so many of them.
I do see the motivation to get business get a bit more desperate in bars when coming time to pay the rent. LOL
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[QUOTE=Syzygies;1842835]Can earn and does earn are not exactly the same. I believe a very low percentage of Bangkok working girls are getting over 150 K per month consistently. I don't see many girls getting multiple Barfines per night. I don't see so many girls are getting lots of bookings per day in Oilies. Most Oilies seem to be very quiet. Even a busy shop like addict has a large number of girls to share the customers.
What about girls doing LT? They would need to make 5 K, 30 days per month to get to 150 K. Ha ha. No that is unreasonable. They just don't make it to that amount. They need time off. Okay I neglected her monthly salary which could be 14 K if she was reliable and did not get docked earnings at all. Many girls lose large parts of monthly salary and often get no salary at all. A few diligent ones retain most of the salary. I also neglected her drink commissions. If she sold 100 drinks at 60 baht each, that is another 6 K (not huge) and difficult to achieve for girls doing a lot of LT bookings. They often arrive at bar with the customer in tow, or already waiting, and get barfined almost immediately and soon head off.
Plenty of girls got no fuck for their day's work. Lucky if they managed more than money for taxi home on some days. In one portable bar on the street I saw that one girl was getting barfined consistently each night and one ladyboy the same, and the others struggled somewhat. One or two don't go with customers at all, just trying to sell drinks.
Sure there are the big earners. But what percentage of girls are in that category? 5% or less? Well done to those who make big money despite some what average looks. That is not easy.
I believe only the "Super Stars" are making 150 K per month, and I haven't found so many of them.
I do see the motivation to get business get a bit more desperate in bars when coming time to pay the rent. LOL[/QUOTE]I think there are far more gals earning quite a bit of money than you think Syz. And hey, it is really up to the gal. As I stated if she is mediocre looking but knows how to hustles and gives great service, she will be very busy. I know quite a few oily gals who aren't so pretty, but are booking 4 customers per day. Why? They know how to dish it out and that keeps 'them coming back. GoGo gals have to be a bit better looking. But as I said, the top two earners at Baccara are pulling in close to 300 k per month. I would imagine a decent looking one can easily make 100 k plus if she is dedicated to her job. If not, that is her loss. The customer's money is there for the taking. It is up to her to provide good service with a smile.
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[QUOTE=EihTooms;1842817]One the risks of paying upfront in almost any venue, including some so-called PSE oilies, but particularly with go-go girls, beer bar girls and so on is something I don't think I have seen anyone mention here during this particular discussion. And this is one case where I am 100% certain no P4 P girls encouraged to supply tales of woe about their customers' bad behavior would ever voluntarily admit they have ever done when it stands to reason they have done it in at least some cases.
But there are many times when these girls deserve to be shorted on their pay by a large percentage if not reduced right down to nothing but taxi fare EVEN THOUGH Full Service with you was very much on offer in the room and arguably even if she has performed a BBBJ for you.
That would be when a private discussion between the two of you in the bar established that she would be fine with BBFS or BBBJ CIM with you but that isn't the way it turned out in the room at all after she pulls one of those infamous Jekyll & Hyde transformations or threw the "Yes in the bar-No in the room" bit at you. Sure, she can change her mind right up to the moment of truth. No problem. We're not talking about forcing her to do anything. But that means you can also change your mind about how much you will pay her as well. If you have paid some mamasan all of it upfront, you've got nothing but thin air on your side when it comes to getting some or all of that money back and discouraging the lies.
Of course, the only part of it the girls are likely to fill a sympathetic ear to those tales of woe with is the part where "He wanted me to boom boom without condom!" or "He wanted to cum in my mouth! I cannot do!!", followed by, "Then he refused to pay me anything!!!"
But my guess is none of them will ever admit that one or both of those activities was precisely what she agreed to in the bar in order to convince him to pay her barfine in the first place and maybe buy her a couple of extra Lady Drinks while we're at it.[/QUOTE]Although I am not into BBFS, I am with you on your point completely. If she agrees and then reneges, then she deserves less than the amount agreed upon. In order for her to pull this stunt in the first place there must have been plenty of dudes who let her get away with it. Many punters just don't have the stones to express their displeasure to a working girl. I really don't get that. First of all when she agree and then refuses it completely kills the mood. Second of all it is bad business and a rip-off. Sorry, I will not take a mai pen rai attitude towards either. Of course I never show anger when this happens. I just get up, get dressed, and if she asks I tell her why I am calling the session short, and then I leave what I think is fair for services rendered. Most of the time this is met with a look of complete astonishment, again because most dudes accept whatever is given to them. Of course this is also one reason many gals don't like going with locals or guys who have visited many times. The best times are when you meet gals that really like sex. But they not so large in number here. I have a few of those in the oilies. They just love doing the nasty. They are indeed a treasure.