-
Hi RN,
Welcome back!!! Have missed you and your unique insights into the feminine psyche.
Could you help me with a problem that I'm having with my lady in Prague? She happens to be a SW there in additon to being a waitress, barmaid, etc.
When I was in Prague last month she stated that she wanted to come to America to visit me for about 5 days. Great. I'll send her the ticket and treat her like a foreign dignitary here. However, when I wanted to "pay" her for her time here in America in lieu of lost wages over there, she became quite upset and angry. I just figured that if she left work over there to be with me in America that she would be out a lot of money and I wanted to compensate her for her lost wages. She has two children that she's supporting. I was just trying to be fair and make things equitable for her. Well, she took it the wrong way and I probably violated some female ethic or principle or something.
Any thoughts or ideas? Your insights about men and women are quite remarkable. Again, welcome back from from all of your "groupies" in America.
-
"As always, there are some selfish, dishonest morons out there who ruin it for all the good guys."
An apt comment that naturally goes in both directions -- there are plenty of us who end up entering into the process in a more guarded and suspicious manner because we've been burned by some kid of "bait and switch" or outright lies from a sex worker in the past. Clearly, the ability to be a dishonest moron isn't restricted by role or sex.
Paddy -- forgive me for diving in here, but it sounds to me as though if you explained your obviously honorable intentions it would probably lead to a conversation that would smooth things over. Especially since you two have had a good relationship. My read on it is this -- she was the one who initiated the idea of the trip, not you, so you paying her way (and presumably her various expenses) essentially completely fulfilled your financial obligation. Your offer of more is in no way a problem other than one of tact and process, where you're trying to be up-front so she'll not worry and she's seeing it as a reminder that she's a working girl. If you were to have given her the same amount of dollars as soon as she arrived with the comment that she could now easily shop or sightsee, you'd have accomplished the same thing, you'd both know where things stood, but she'd not be placed directly and unavoidably in the sex worker role. In visiting you on her initiative, she's putting herself in your hands, and thereby making a far more personal stretch than would normally be involved in such a relationship, so it can be interepreted that she's approaching this as an adventure, vacation or personal interaction as opposed to a work trip. Thus the sturm und drang.
-
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your input. You're right in that my offer almost certainly came across as "payment" and not as a good faith attempt at compensating her for a week of lost wages from her three jobs. She's almost certainly viewing our "relationship" as something more than just a John and a SW. I should have been more sensitive (the wine didn't help) to her possible feelings and viewpoints.
It's becoming apparent that seeing a SW outside of the typical encounter can be a bit more complicated. Special rules and sensitivities must be observed. In retrospect, I should have handled this differently. Thanks again for you insights, Joe.
-
joe, i'm not advocating for my right or anyone's right 2 screw children. the main point we disagree on and will continue 2 disagree on is the dividing line between juveniles and adults. i think the only scientific and objective measure is puberty, which lasts about 2 years for any particular individual, varying somewhat between individuals, but generally occuring between the ages of 10-14 for females and 12-16 for males. to argue that a sexually mature individual should still be considered a juvenile is absurd in my opinion, but not yours or many other peoples. u again score points as a formidable debater with your quick reply on jerry lee lewis. i didn't know that about him. i was basing my use of his marriage to his 13 year old cousin as an example of a non-predatory relationship involving a minor and a legal adult based upon an interview i remembered seeing of the former "child bride" after their divorce, in which she indicated that their marriage had been a loving one and they had parted as friends. so perhaps in that particular instance jerry lee wasn't such a bad guy.
RN, i'm glad you're back adding your calmer female voice to the discussion. given the great stigma attached to prostitution it must take considerable courage to become a prostitute at any age, and i certainly wouldn't recommend it as a way to introduce any sexually inexperienced person to sex.
-
VT -- I agree with your delineation of our differences. Your approach is based entirely on the distinction of bodily functions, i.e. using whether or not one is physically capable of having sex and procreating as a fairly absolute dividing line. I do not agree with that because there's also a mental and emotional side to the maturation process, and a reliance on physical puberty doesn't at all deal with that. It's the same as in criminal cases, as far as I'm concerned -- not simply whether someone is physically mature enough to cause harm, but is there a true understanding of their actions or not? We both agree that the equation is fraught with individual differences, but where I'm baffled is your way of thinking that somehow an adult "guiding" these newly defined adults toward sex is ok, but an adult guiding those who are not mature enough away from sex is somehow automatically repressive societal thinking. The bottom line in the equation is what's good for the individuals involved, and there are both positive and negative things about sex in the early to mid-teens.
And Jerry Lee can play at any wedding I'm involved with any time, and I'd happily hoist a glass with him during those times he's hoisting, as he's certifiably brilliant, but he'd best keep his paws off my sisters, given his general interpersonal history :-) I was quick with the response because I've always been a fan of his music, and that whole weird preacher/sinner thing with him and Swaggart is simply fascinating, so I've followed him a bit. (Typical dichotomy for me -- I think of Denny McClain always as the brilliant baseball pitcher I watched as a kid, not as the drug dealer who later emptied out companies of retirement packages and spent half his life in jail.)
In any event, this is absolutely my last post on this in this area. (And I keep saying that...)
-
Sure wish Denny McLain would have died in his sleep at the peak of his career instead of my man Darryl Kile. Maybe the god in whom I do not believe is a mean and cruel god after all.
-
Umm, amen, Dickhead, to the extent that's appropriate. I halfway think Denny would agree...
-
jeeze... I go on vacation and you all have a party without me
I was sorry to see PA go... he had many good things to say. I'm glad to see you're all still around.
Hope your situation improves Paddy... obviously a moment you wish you could reel back in.
George W got up in front of the world again today and said some more bs like "the Lord will keep us safe"... I wanted to puke. For those of you living outside the US: How do other countries view the US at this point. The propaganda machine is so overwhelming here that it's hard to see around it. I know this isn't exactly "morality of", but then, the US does pressure alot of other countries to become "moral" like the US (as we watch the news of how Worldcom bilked investors out of 4 billion dollars - the same "moral" buddies George has his dinners with).
The teenager sex spat between VT and JZ was interesting: I find myself leaning towards JZ's opinion. While young girls, IMHO, are capable of sex... they really lack the emotions/experience to understand it. Just because a monkey has the fingers to pull a trigger doesn't mean you should give it a gun.
Someone mentioned the emotions of going to a sex worker a while ago. I wouldn't go to a SW for some cuddling and affection... I'll go for a quick pop of my rocks (temporary satisfaction) with a girl I wouldn't normally be able to pull. For me cuddling and popping are two exclusive concepts (which sometimes occur at the same time obviously)... sometimes a fuck is just a fuck. Paying someone to fake intimacy with me would be nothing more than an expensive, quickly forgotten illusion.
-
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fedup [i] Someone mentioned the emotions of going to a sex worker a while ago. I wouldn't go to a SW for some cuddling and affection... I'll go for a quick pop of my rocks (temporary satisfaction) with a girl I wouldn't normally be able to pull. For me cuddling and popping are two exclusive concepts (which sometimes occur at the same time obviously)... sometimes a fuck is just a fuck. Paying someone to fake intimacy with me would be nothing more than an expensive, quickly forgotten illusion. [/i][/QUOTE]
Precisely, FU, and welcome back. You know one thing I like about condoms? They level the playing field by allowing the man to fake orgasm as well. This can be a huge "face saver" at times. Well, I guess condoms could be "face savers" from the female point as well!
So was this a hobbying vacation and will there be a trip report? Just curious as I will probably be marooned in the US until January.
DH
-
Hmm, I agree and disagree. It depends on mood. Sometimes you just want to get your rocks off in the most raunchy experience possible, and walk away unstressed, relieved, and unfettered, and sometimes it's about an intimate experience that involved a sense of affection, attention to the exploration and pushing of the buttons of the body and mind, and something that's slightly different than animal passion.
Hooray for both, say I, and utter worship and multiple academy awards and orgasms for the provider who can effortlessly read her client's mood and desires and switch accordingly.
And I'm sure RN, as with many other providers, could easily provide us with examples where plain ol' sex is the least part of the equation.
-
No... it was not a mongering vacation. I'm still seeing that gal from my past posts and don't feel it would be appropriate to go mongering while with her.
I'm also still of the opinion that a trip to Latin America would compromise my attitudes towards the girls here at home. Perhaps I'm being naive or stupid; but I'm still of the opinion that I can find a girl here who will satisfy my sexual appetite and provide me with the "couple" aspect of a relationship too.
It's an interesting question: Can I preserve my desire for finding a long term mate after enjoying the sexual pleasures of a "hired" girl vacation?
Perhaps those of you who have gone through this can tell of your experience.
-
Ello!
Fedup...welcome back honey. Hope you had a great vacation.
Terry and Paddy...thanks for the sweet stuff you said to me in your posts a while back. :)
Paddy,
I don't think you need any help from me regarding your friend from Prague...not while Joe is around (or should that be Josephine??? LOL). Joe thinks more like a women that I do sometimes! He said pretty much everything I would have said, only he probably stated better than I would have (as usual). ;-)
re: "It's becoming apparent that seeing a SW outside of the typical encounter can be a bit more complicated. Special rules and sensitivities must be observed".
I don't think that's necessarily true. You don't need to walk on eggshells around her, or treat her any differently than you would any other girlfriend...you just need to clarify your relationship though first. You need to have a DMC and find out whether what you have is a sex worker/client thing or a "real" thing. I would presume from the way that she reacted to you giving her cash on this occasion, she probably wants you to be more than a client. But if you presume that and you are wrong, you may find she gets bitter about you trying getting "freebies" or feel uncomfortable requesting money after sex in the future. You need to be very clear on exactly what your relationship is, and if she tells you that it is "for real"...do NOT, under ANY circumstances, treat her like a hooker ever again from this day forward.
That can be done out of spite (eg. during an argument...which is reprehensible) or accidentally, as you discovered recently. What would you have done if your "normal" girlfriend had time off work and you thought she may be short on cash? You probably would have offered to pay her rent or give her shopping money or buy the kids something....maybe even suggested that she could BORROW money from you (and then never ask her to repay it if you would prefer). You wouldn't have offered to pay for her "services" though.
I know you did what you did out of the goodness of your heart ...and your genuine compassion is an honorable quality...but DON'T DO IT AGAIN! *slap* lol :)
-
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop
Hooray for both, say I, and utter worship and multiple academy awards and orgasms for the provider who can effortlessly read her client's mood and desires and switch accordingly.
[/QUOTE]
*Bowing* "Thank you, thank you. This award means so much to me. I would like to thank the God in whom I do not believe, my Mum, my agent, the Academy....." LOL
And you're right of course Joe...there are plenty of clients for whom sex is not of major importance. There are also many (especially those with erectile problems, etc) that do not want sex at all.
Fedup,
I know I'm not qualified to answer your question (because of my obvious lack of dangly bits in my trousers) but I can't really see that it would make much difference. I think there is a risk with whichever path you choose. Men who have had limited sexual experience may find a long term partner and then feel the urge to "see what they are missing out on", and guys who have had heaps of experience may be reluctant to settle down because they KNOW what they are missing out on! LOL (And it is no different for women either).
I think if you find someone you really love and want to settle down with, monogamy will come naturally...regardless of your previous sexual experiences.
-----------------------------------
PS....PHILLIP! COME BACK HONEY!!! We miss you :)
-
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RN
[i]Joe thinks more like a women that I do sometimes! [/i][/QUOTE]
Umm, well, thanks, I think. Hmmm. But it's more anthropology than biology -- there are actually more than enough Josephines around my family so I don't need to play the part :-) My approach is actually absolutely a male one -- wanting to "fix" things and keep them simple, and and feeling that it's usually easier to figure out how to keep women happy while not compromising my beliefs than it is to try to clean things up after they're unhappy, which [b]never[/b] seems to work, as unlike men they tend to remember little things (both good and bad) forever. I've just found direct attempts at compassionate honesty (combined with a willingness to apologize) to be the simplest approach, even though that can also can blow up in your face, as I'm just not smart enough to keep track of anything else.
I do think, though, that Paddy's very right on one aspect -- it is more complicated when you're dealing with a sex worker in the netherworld of a relationship. I agree completely with you, RN, that it needs to be clarified, but the sex worker element definitely adds all kinds of perceptual layers and landmines. IMHO the main special sensitivity that needs to be involved, at least until it's absolutely crystal clear what kind of relationship it is, is a much more up-front discussion and approach about "what you are" as a duo than you might have in other circumstances. In this case I think it's doubly complex as the woman involved has other jobs as well and probably some of the discomfit comes from her not strictly identifying herself as a sex worker. (Kind of, I'm not a prostitute, I just play one at work...)
-
Yes RN... my brain tells me the same but my judao-christian background has programmed me to not listen to my brain.
As I stated in my post over on the American Women forum: I'll soon know if I should continue dabbling with GF's and one nighters or just head straight for Cuba and a life with endless hot pussy.