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RN -- that's a difficult issue, and I think it depends on a lot of things, not the least of which is where you are in the development of the relationship. It's sure not the kind of thing I'd drop into first-date dinner conversation unless I wanted to use it as a kind of litmus test. There's little question that such information complicates things, but so do other things, such as information about divorces or past loves. You're right about the litany of worries you wouldn't have, but by the same token there's also that big fact hiding underwater that could surface later and completely destroy things simply by not having been revealed. I mean, if I was in a relationship where I really thought I knew the person and I was to find out after a year or two that not only had they been a sex worker but that they'd withheld that information from me for fear of how I'd take it, it would be pretty upsetting because of what it would say about trust. It would probably be more upsetting not because of the information itself but the implication that I couldn't handle it. I'd inevitably wonder whether anything I thought I knew to be true about that person and our relationship was really so.
It would be even more upsetting to be blindsided by that information in a public way by discovering, say, an arrest record, odd phone calls, or sotto voce conversations with other men, as then not only are you not trusted, you're potentially a fool (emotionally speaking, whether that's true or not.)
And yes, I'm kind of saying damned if you do, damned if you don't.
That said, let me note that speaking entirely from my own perspective and experience as opposed to generalizing, I live with someone who's been the victim of abuse, and it's part of my job as a partner to understand how that has affected the way she looks at the world, where her danger points are, and to find ways not only to shield her from situations that I know will stress her but to provide small stresses and situations to help her become stronger so she can be able to handle those big stresses. It's my job to understand where she is in her developmental curve, and to convey my opinion on that so I'm not controlling her world in some inappropriate way while being concerned about her welfare. Simultaneously, it's part of her role to provide the kind of stimuli and situations I need to overcome my various foibles and insecurities and the same kind of transparent feedback. To me, that's what a relationship is all about, and you can't do that if you don't really know who you're talking to.
Here, of course is where it's complicated -- if you know your partner well enough to know that he's probably not going to handle that information well, then you're both probably not going to want to reveal it, and probably going to need to see whether or not this can really be long term, as it's not clear that you're going to be able to really be open with him.
Again, I think this is a YMMV scenario -- I've personally got a big and strong enough ego that I rely far more on my own perspective and intuition when it comes to reading people than by societal judgements (which probably explains why I'm as likely to hang out with criminals or drug addicts as I am to hang with movie stars or ministers of culture -- and have done both.) I expect a degree of inaccuracy and concealment in all relationships -- we all have our foibles and weak spots -- but the more intimate the relationship, the more I expect the major things to be out in the open if it's emotionally possible to do so. What I want from a partner is basic trust that I'll do the right thing given the opportunity and the information I need.
Bottom line -- it's a risk either way. Such information does inevitably have consequences -- from perhaps uncomfortable conversations to wonders about whether or not you actually understand what makes your partner tick -- but that's the nature of relationships in general. IMHO there's no way for them to be simple in any event, so we're better off knowing, embracing the complexity, and learning whether or not we're capable of dealing with it. But, then, I'm generally in favor of adults acting like adults, and am the first to admit that I'm often disappointed :-)
Personally, I'd prefer to know, as it sends a basic message of trust and inclusion. But I prefer to know everything in any event. I'd want it as something we could both explore in terms of what it says about us as a couple, and in terms of learning the sensitive places we both have about it, when to avoid those, and when to poke at them.
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Joe,
>>>"It's sure not the kind of thing I'd drop into first-date dinner conversation"
See, that's actually the problem. You can't just say "Well, I'm 28, divorced, a mother of two and I worked as a prostitute for 5 years. So...tell me about you". Aside from the probability of having him run a mile, the fact is I do not really know this guy and I don't know where he will be (or who he will be talking to) tomorrow. That's not the sort of information that I would share with just anyone. Obviously it's something that can't be said until trust has been established, and the relationship is more stable.
However, once you have been together long enough to form a close emotional bond and really trust each other...it's too late! If I tell him then, there will be accusations that I "lied" to him, his perception of me as a person may change and I will be questioned as to why I didn't tell him before things went so far. He would expect me to have told him something as important as that right at the beginning...and as I've already said, that's just not possible.
There is just no right time to say it! Personally, even though I will probably be shot down for saying this, I would prefer he didn't know at all. I'm sure you guys will think that is cruel and dishonest, but I think it would be better for both of us if the subject was never spoken about...ignorance is bliss. I think the chances of me ever being found out are pretty slim, however if it did come to light and my partner hated me for it, I would only have myself to blame. I would be honest and say that I did not want to hurt him with the information, and that in truth I also didn't want him to be able to hurt ME with it. If he leaves, then so be it.
And in truth...if the situation was reversed, I would rather not know.
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I see your point. But aren't you setting yourself up in a position of basically needing to always kind of look over your shoulder, and then, if the other shoe does drop, of blaming yourself for not figuring out how not to get into the situation? (Hmm, let's see, can't I get more tortured in that syntax somehow?) There's a point in the relationship, where trust is beginning to be established but your heart's not completely at risk, where you each have a decent idea of who the other is, but where there's not so massive a history or investment, where the conversation is definitely possible. It's certainly not unreasonable to say, "I was afraid to tell you this before, but now that this might be going further, I feel you should know..."
And I do think your comments regarding not wanting to be hurt wth the information is telling, in terms of your earlier question about how having a relationship with a sex worker is different.
People have different approaches to keeping secrets in relationships. I'd hate the idea of having something like that hanging over my head, waiting to sabotage perhaps a decade of relationship as opposed to getting it out when there's far less invested and when things are still forming. Early, it's surprising and perhaps disturbing information about who you are. Later, it's just purely and simply a betrayal. I doubt it would make me leave to find out after a long time, but it would definitely poison and change things, and I'd have anger that would stay with me for a long time. Not because of what the information says about you -- but what you think it says about me. Ignorance is only bliss as long as it exists -- rude awakenings and the feeling you've been taken for a fool is far more painful than an absence of bliss.
And, RN, I must confess I'm surprised to hear you take this line -- you who have steadfastly championed sex work as a legitimate choice that doesn't deserve the stigma it gets. (Especially, I might add, after just telling USbabe that you still hold sex work as a potential future option -- how can that possibly mesh with this position?) If the champion won't hold the banner, who will? C'mon -- we don't want our heroes to have human worries or insecurities :-) !!
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Heroes, Joe???? LOL
Ok, let me clarify something here...
As you know, I am not ashamed of anything I have ever done. I do not regret working in the industry and I DO believe it is a legitimate form of work that I should have the right to choose to participate in, without automatically becoming the "dregs of society".
That said...as far as the community is concerned it is NOT a legitimate job, people are disgusted by my activities and they automatically make assumptions about my character because of it. And this attitude has been held for thousands of years in cultures all over the world...it is NOT going to change overnight and will more than likely NEVER change, to any significant degree, at all.
What I'm saying is that no matter how self-confident I am or how firmly I believe that I am right...there will ALWAYS be people who believe I am wrong. This accounts for two reasons why I would not want to tell a partner about my history in the sex industry...
a) If my partner had never had anything to do with the sex industry himself (or in many cases, even if he had!) he would automatically draw on the stereotypes that he has grown up believing about hookers...they lie, they steal, they are diseased, they are nympho's, they are homewreckers, they are drug addicts...ad nauseum. He would not be able to help himself. Even if he did not do it consciously, those deeply entrenched beliefs would alter his perception. A couple of years ago when I told some friends what I was doing, I was met with some really bizarre responses. My "true" friends (only two) asked questions, but ultimately didn't care less what I was doing for a living. A couple of male friends figured they now stood a good chance of getting sex, and made indecent proposals (don't see them much these days!) and two women, who I have known for many years...refused to let me near their husbands ever again. (Have not spoken to them since). They talk about me to mutual friends and call me a sl*t. I don't want a partner making judgements about me that have no basis in fact.
b) You mentioned always looking over my shoulder and waiting for someone to find out...I live like that every day of my life. I have said before in this forum that it is the most painful part of working in the industry. The reason I worry is not because I am afraid of people thinking less of me (which I couldn't care less about) but because if the secret came out my family would be attacked, and I would be discriminated against in many different aspects of my life. I know how awful it is to live with that burden, and I don't really want to pass it on to my partner. He then has to panic about his family finding out, worry that his mates will find out, worry that I may have already SLEPT with his mates!...you get the picture.
Yeah, I know my reasoning doesn't make sense, and like you said it seems that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I guess that's why I haven't had a partner in so long! LOL I do really want to have a relationship based on complete honesty, but I also don't want my choice to be a sex worker in the past, to affect our lives as a couple in the future. Perhaps it's just easier if I remain single for the rest of my days? :)
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RN, first, I was just gently tugging your chain, as we all make compromises to try to be happy. Such is one of the sadnesses of life. I think your reasoning makes total sense, and I'm very sympathetic about the dilemma, which I see as fraught with peril. Those who frequent sex workers are not held in high societal regard either, though clearly the perceptual difference between johns and prostitutes is akin to that of casual drug user versus dealer. (In other words, the men are weak, but the women are morally corrupt.) As I've stated here before, in the field where I work having public empathy or going very far toward pleading the case of sex workers will get me tossed out of large parts of that arena pretty quickly, so far be it from me to make pronouncements about how one ought to act faced with the realities of life.
To me the key is in one statement you made -- "My "true" friends (only two) asked questions, but ultimately didn't care less what I was doing for a living." My idea of a life partner is someone who falls into that "true" friend category, but I'm well aware (and anyone reading this or the American women thread, among others, will be also) that's the exception rather than the rule. I have nothing but admiration for someone who's struggling to make it alone as a single mother (I know so many in that situation) and have had many conversations with women about the compromises necessary when in that situation. And we all start with survival, safety and security and try to work our way up the ladder, happy for every higher rung we can reach and fearful of losing the lower.
I am curious, though, given what I understand you now do for a living with your job counseling and educating in the field, how the issue will manage to stay buried, as it seems a natural topic of conversation. As you say you've got ex-friends who are dissing you to mutual friends as well, I have to confess that it seems to me only a matter of time before something comes up, one way or another.
Heroes -- yes, see the discussion regarding the same of several weeks ago in the Thai women area. You've been a pretty consistent flag-bearer for women in the profession in a forum where such actions haven't always, to say the least, been met cordially, and that takes a degree of courage.
And, by no means do I think you should remain single unless that's your choice -- as far as I'm concerned, anyone and everyone, male and female, who can manage to demonstrate the intelligence, patience, tolerance, and good will that pervade your posts needs to reproduce and mentor as frequently as possible, as grace and empathy are always in far too short supply in the world.
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RN... Who do you want to end up with? A "true" lover... or someone that you have to hide things from?
It's in your own best interest to divulge your previous lifestyle. I don't have a problem with those in the sex industry: A very good friend of mine is ex-dancer (and I'd rather date her than many of the girls I've dated in the past). If we'd met as lovers rather than as friends, and she hid this from me, I would have dumped her when I found out. I have three reasons for this:
1) She lied about a major part of her life ( I would have asked about her past at some point and she would have needed to blow smoke to hide)
2) Now I'm wondering what else she hasn't told me (Does she have Black Widow Syndrome?)
3) She didn't hold me in high enough regard to allow me to make my own choice.
I have a four to six month "window" during which time I expect to hear such things as "I used to be a SW". Obviously I don't want to hear this on the first date (it would actually indicate that it's still a hangup for you too)... but you'd better tell me before we're seriously attached.
You said: "...but I also don't want my choice to be a sex worker in the past, to affect our lives as a couple in the future"
Everything you've ever done in your past affects your future... that's the way it works.
You also said: "...Perhaps it's just easier if I remain single for the rest of my days"
Tell ya what... If you and I are still single in two years I'll come down and give you a visit :)
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i have a belated comment relating to the brief discussion sparked by stranger 99's negative reference to organized crime. organized crime owes it's existence to the true worst element of society which is the corrupt and repressive politco-legal system which bans many activities deemed immoral which nevertheless a significant percentage of consenting adults engage in, such as prostitution. it takes a certain amount of ruthlessness to defy the establishment, but not as much as it takes to be a part of it and do something like take someone's freedom who is simply attempting to exercise his or her natural right to personal freedom.
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against a part of my better judgement, i'm going to weigh in once again on RN's most recent concern since she has brought it up again. RN, there is a time in any relationship between initially meeting and having formed an intimacy; one doesn't go from being strangers to being emotionally involved in the blink of an eye. there is a time in any relationship when it's appropriate to bring up any and all issues which your prospective partner should know about you if he is to make a truly informed decision re. how he feels about you. this is to dispel your weak argument that there's never an appropriate time to discuss important but potentially dicey subjects such as having been a prostitute. also, i can't accept your claim of shamelessness; if it were true, you wouldn't feel any need to conceal what is obviously an important part of your own history. i'm puzzled about why you keep bringing this up. if you want to bury your past, fine, do so, or rather attempt to do so, for secrets often become weightier and weightier albatrosses to carry around within oneself. but if you truly had no shame you'd have no need to agonize over this issue: you'd simply fully disclose it at an appropriate time and be happy with the results, because i'm sure you wouldn't wish to have an "intimate" relationship with someone who can't accept your past, which of course has a bearing on the person you are now.
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Terry,
I realise that I asked the same question before...as I mentioned in my post...but that was getting close to a year ago maybe, and there are new guys here who I felt may have an opinion on it too. (It only came from the recent discussion about Paddy's girlfriend, otherwise I wouldn't have said it again).
Fact is, like I said, at present I would prefer to not have him know. I figured that it would cause him nothing but heartache, put strain on the relationship and yes, leave the possibility of him using it against me in the future. That was what I believed...and I wanted male opinions on the matter. I have not been in a long term relationship since I started working, so I have not been in the position of making the decision yet. For all I knew...the men in here may have said "Don't tell him!!"
But they have all said the same thing so far...that the hurt of not being told and finding out later would be worse than finding out at the beginning. Because of what they (and you) have told me, I will probably bring it up with my partner next time it looks like a relationship could be developing (If it ever happens!!! LOL)
For the record, I don't WANT to bury my past. I want the man I love to understand who I really am and accept that who I really am includes being a sex worker. I don't want to live in fear of him finding out...and like Joe said, that would be difficult to hide considering my current job. I've also appeared in the media many times in defence of sex workers (not identifying as one mind you, or with any pictures) and intend on eventually writing a book, which will more than likely lead to instant public exposure. If I had a partner who didn't know, I would have to forget the book idea...and that is too important to me to give up.
Either way I'm still single so it's hardly an issue. Perhaps I need an "Australian Men" section to whine in??? :)
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Joe,
"And, by no means do I think you should remain single unless that's your choice -- as far as I'm concerned, anyone and everyone, male and female, who can manage to demonstrate the intelligence, patience, tolerance, and good will that pervade your posts needs to reproduce and mentor as frequently as possible, as grace and empathy are always in far too short supply in the world".
Awwww shucks honey...I'm blushing!! :)
Fedup,
"Tell ya what... If you and I are still single in two years I'll come down and give you a visit"
It's a deal!! I'll be waiting on the couch with a six-pack....wearing nothing but a big red bow. *cheeky grin* LOL
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RN
[i]It's a deal!! I'll be waiting on the couch with a six-pack....wearing nothing but a big red bow. *cheeky grin* LOL [/i][/QUOTE]
Wait, I forget -- did you say you worked for Australia's tourism board ;) as well?
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I can't remember who said a few posts ago that:
"men are able to pretend they love to get sex and women they will have sex in exchange of love" (or something like that).
This brings me to another issue: is sex per-se only a man-thing?
I think it is.
This explains the rationale of prostitution: I will pay you this amount, I will take care of my needs and you will not expect anything but money from me.
Having said that I do not mean that women do not enjoy sex as much as we, men, do. I doubt though their ability to get that pleasure without having an emotional/mental involvement with their counterpart.
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mmmmmmmm... Foster's...
oops!... sorry RN... Canadian beer hound showing again...
I mean...
mmmmmmmm... RNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by stranger99
[i]I can't remember who said a few posts ago that:
"men are able to pretend they love to get sex and women they will have sex in exchange of love" (or something like that).
[/i][/QUOTE]
It was I, Dickhead, your faithful servant. "Men give love to get sex; women give sex to get love."
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C'mon, Fedup, you could go
mmmmmmm, Touhey’s...
or
mmmmmmm, Coopers.....
at least!