Is Macunaima a Serial Antagonist?

[blue]Greetings everyone,

While I have not yet established a specific threshold for initiating a Serial Antangonist survey, complaints from 7 Senior Members is enough for me.

Pursuant to the Forum's Serial Antagonist Policy, I am posting this poll to ascertain the Membership's opinion regarding the cumulative reports of Macunaima.

You may review the Serial Antangonist Policy at [url]http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-serialantagonists.php[/url]

Please remember that this poll will close in 7 days.

Please remember that votes by new members (registering after today's date) will not be included in this poll's final vote tally.

In addition to your vote, I would also encourage you to post your comments.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]

[QUOTE=Admin][blue]Greetings everyone,

In addition to your vote, I would also encourage you to post your comments.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue][/QUOTE]Putting him in his own thread allows him to still post and allows whoever wants to read him to still read him. It just means he won't get off-topic in threads like the Reports thread. Seems fair to me.

Macu is an academic and he is used to arguing with other academics. When on this forum he does the same thing which provokes anger. Given that he is not a monger and does not post trip reports in the trip reports section he technically should be banned for life. However, he will probably just sign up as another user eventually.


Banning MAcu for life would be unfair. But I do think he should be nice enough to stop posting in the trip reports section. If he does not do so then he should be banned.


Do not give him his own thread. He is no more knowlegable about Rio than others. He has strong opinions but so do others. If I was so inclined I too could argue academic points about the Rio sex scene. But this IS NOT and academic bulletin Board. There are plenty of academic web sites and journals out there where MAcu and others can make their arguments. He should not be rewarded for making these arguments here. His points are no better, or worse, than others, just different.
TJ

I don’t think he is a serial antagonist, on the contrary I think he is providing an excellent service by reminding some posters what the true intentions of most Brazilian hookers are.

I admit that reading the true facts may offend some of the naïve, self-deluded love tourists that frequent this board (senior members or otherwise), but they will hardly offend any monger that really knows what the whole game is about.

The vast majority of Brazilian hookers only are after money. Period. And they will play any game with any of these love tourists in order to maximise their returns, be it providing occasional ‘free sex’, simulating orgasms or whatever else is needed. This is Macunaima’s message, something so obvious that shouldn’t even be posted if it wasn’t for the presence of these love tourists writing all the time about their adventures in dreamland and confusing their dreams with reality.

As someone put it, the fact that you go to have a good time in Disneyland doesn’t mean that you have to believe in Mickey Mouse.

From what I’ve seen all of Macunaima’s posts have been spot on, polite and to the point. The fact that they may destroy some people’s dreams is another story.

The only annoying aspect I find is that all those silly discussions take place, mainly, in the Rio board when there should be a specific thread for them called ‘Brazilian women’, as there is in other countries’ sections.

I read with some interest the remarks written by Macunaima. Yes he may be sometimes provocative, but in a specific way.

He knows what he is speaking about; I mean he knows Brazil and some of its history and sociology.

Who among the fellows who hate him do know where the word of "macunaima" comes from? Who can read and understand a brazilian text? Who knows "os sertoes"?

Having a fat belly and and plenty dollars does not replace reading, hearing, viewing and understanding.

We see some wavelets around the world these days. Sometimes a cultural an political tsunami could spread against all westerners seen as cow boys. It is in the interest of nobody.

So I propose to my colleagues to stop one day drinking one caipirinha and with the money buy some brazilian newspapers during one week. That could be a good first step towards mutual understanding between north and south.

Peace and love!

I have no problem that he has strongly held opinions. They're just not consistent with the goals of the 2005 forum. On the other hand, it would seem perfectly reasonable for him to have his own forum & he can go on and on . . ad nauseum . . . engaging people as they desire.

SD

I voted "No, I believe his writing style provokes people, but not to the point of requiring action." I believe that Macunaima's writing is provocative in the best sense of the word: thought-provoking.

The fact that he is not a mongerer just seems to disqualify him in some people's eyes. I always thought the purpose of the forum was to provide information on how to get laid with women. IMHO, this does NOT specify that this sex has to P4P or "free" sex or that you have to be a mongerer to be able to make contributions here. The fact that he is an academic conducting reseach on the topic of prostitution also seems to throw some people way off base. Still, I still fail to see why this should be somehow incompatible with the stated purpose of this forum. While his contributions might be unconventional by most posters' standards as Macunaima addresses the topic from an unusual angle, they are related to the topic at hand and do provide useful information. Something that I can NOT say about members who have nothing else to say than "hey, great pix" or go on boasting about their sexual prowess. I don't see any reason to ban these members, and I don't see any reason for banning or restricting Macunaima. It's about diversity, right?

I say, judge Macunaima on the merit of his statements, not on who he is. Personally, I enjoy his contributions and insights, although I do not always fully agree with him. I believe that the forum as a whole would lose by banning a member like him.

At the time I am writing this, seven people have voted to have Macunaima banned permanently, but not ONE has written a comment as to why. They must be people who are so unable to view beyond their own little world and so lacking in using scroll bars or ignore lists that they feel compelled to shut people up who present unpopular view points. Why doesn't it surprise me that those people don't have the guts to state who they are and actually explain why they think so?

Ezinho just posted a comment not all that different from something Macunaima might say. (However, Macunaima contradicts himself so often, it is hard to figure out exactly what he is saying.)

The main difference is that Ezinho is in there playing the game. He is not lecturing me. He is offering a perspective of someone who has lived and breathed the experience. I might not agree with him, but I respect him.

When I was in law school I had a professor who had taught a particular subject for eight years, yet had never been in the courtroom. Prior to law school, I had been involved in that area for several years and was considered an expert. I regularly attended court just so I could observe what was going on in the "real world." Naturally, this professor didn't have a clue and I would regularly point that out in the classroom. I even invited him to attend court with me. He never did, but he did let me teach some of the classes.

While outside of Help one night I ran into a couple of students from a university in the US. When I asked them what they were doing they said they were in Brazil studying among other things prostitution. In the course of our conversation they told me that their professor said that Help was filled with transsexuals. I said, as usual, most academics have no clue and invited them to come into Help with me.

I have taught in both undergraduate and graduate programs so I am no stranger to academia. I have a tremendous respect for those who actually are experts in their fields and have something worthwhile to say. The problem is that Macunaima is like my law school professor, he really doesn't know what he is talking about, yet keeps on talking.

It is not the message I have a problem with, it is the messenger. This particular messenger needs to be shot.

"No, I believe his writing style provokes people, but not to the point of requiring action."

While he's not a monger, he's no different in his contributions than those hawking guide services, tours, apartments, intros to girls, security, etc. There is value in his contributions, maybe just needs to be in the Brasil-General area. He doesn't need to be quarantined. I just think the truth hurts.

I definitely don't agree with everything that he says, but it does sound like Rio is still Rio. I haven't been there in a couple of years. The game is still the same. Newer gringos are soaking up the game, while getting high on the supply.

I just think Mac's research findings are contradicting some monger's perception of reality, when of course, it's really all fantasy. Some guys don't want to hear the truth. Dudes contemplating bringing garotas back to their home country. Someone who apparently had been recently cyber-sparring with Mac about his experience, when the dude mentioned "LOVE." Another was stridently defending the honor of another garota. Seems Rio is still Rio. It's a fantasy. Rio is a helluva drug!!!!!

I vote to just leave him alone. I don't recall him being disrespectful to anyone here (unless they persisted), while he's had all kinds of negatives launched his way. Those that don't like him, can just use the Ignore This User function. You (Admin) have it available for a reason.

Macuniama isn't the only one of us that strays off topic, and he manages to write in complete sentences when he does (with good grammer, appropriate punctuation, and correct usage of capital letters), making his posts a quick read. Personally, I've found many of his posts interesting even when I disagree with them -- the disagreement forces me to reassess my own logic for my beliefs, which I find useful. Of course, my reassessment usually leads me to conclude I'm right :-)

It seems to me that Macuniama deliberately tries to provoke on occasion, to help him gather data for his research from a fairly diverse cross-section of mongers (research on prostitution without considering the demand side of the equation would be kind of useless). If members find him offensive, the best revenge would be to not respond; that would skew his sample population and lessen the validity of his research, forcing him to provide more useful information for the rest of us to entice greater participation (yes, I used to design research studies in an earlier life, before I discovered better ways to make a living).

Whether he is given his own thread, or left to post as he does today, I support continuing to have him on the board. I've found I often learn more from opinions I disagree with than the tenth repetition of warnings about overpaying at Help. I would urge him, though, if he does continue on the board, to think what specific he can contribute that will be useful to other members, even if it is just his favorite feijoada restaurant. For example, Marcello, the bouncer at Le Boy Bar, spikes patrons' drinks (why was I at Le Boy Bar? A long story involving a cute femme tourist from the Netherlands I met in March who wanted to sing "Like a Virgin" to the butches there on karaoke night, but I won't bore you with the details of lugging her unconscious body back to her apartment and having Marcello trying to beat the door down at 4:30 AM) -- Macuniama, give us that level of finer detail that we can apply on our trips, and I suspect there will be fewer complaints.

This particular poster is not a monger, he quite clearly states he has never mongered and never intends to. He posts only to make comments on other mongers reports. Generally his posts annoy a number of people and the board basically gets way off topic responding to his criticisms. Generally, but not always, no real info gets posted in the report section for several days after one of his bouts and everything calms down. Hence, he causes major disruptions to the report section, which in my opinion he has no business posting in because he doesn't monger and hence does not have a report to write. If he must post, he should at least do it in an appropriate section. I believe his own section could be a solution. It would stop the disruption he causes to the main report section and give the people that still want to read is postings the opportunity to do so. A win win for everybody.

In order not to be overly influenced by his abrasive style, which many of us have, I actually followed Jackson's link to the "Serial Antagonist" section and read the criteria. I find that Mac definitely meets the criteria for "Stealth Antagonist:" First he engages in "repeated attacks" against others. Sometimes they are subtle, but they are attacks nonetheless.

Second, he is "continuously embroiled in caustic exchanges with other members." Who in their right mind could argue that? To quote Jackson's criteria: "The Forum does not permit antagonistic behavior toward other Forum members at any time and for any reason. Motivation or alleged justification is irrelevant."

In addition, I think that he is not a mongerer IS relevant. He posts on "trip reports" sections, but has no reports, just pontificating opinions, some of them good, but better suited to another venue. This Forum is about SHARED experiences, not pedantic lectures from the un-experienced. Again, to quote: "The purpose of this Forum is to provide for the EXCHANGE of information between men on the subject of FINDING WOMEN FOR SEX [emphasis added]." Does anybody honestly think that his theories and poetry (Poetry, give me a f***** break!) meet the criteria or even the spirit of this Forum?

I think not, and thus my vote is to rid this Forum of him so that we can get back to sharing our mutual experiences and helping each other out.

At this point the majority of posters think he should be restricted to his own thread which is a nice way of saying he should be banned.

In other words you will let him in the house but he has to stay in his room alone and anybody can enter his room if they want to but who would want to?

Lets face it majority of his posts were responses to others and since no one will be posting the type of posts he has responed to in his room then he will have nothing to say therefore he is silent, the same thing as being banned.

Maybe you can restrict him to Nibs room so that Nibs has somebody to talk to about his upcoming trip, maybe Mac can educate him on the motivations and habits of the Brasilian GDP.

Dr Philogyne.......I know what "MACUNAÍMA" means and what it is in Brasil literature and film....but so what? He is the image of every Brasilian.....black, white and indian......but so what? Look at the works of Mário de Andrade if you are interested. Maybe he should have chosen the name "argumentative, serial antagonist".....it would have fit a lot better.

I voted for restricting him but I would really suggest that he should be on Nibu´s board - as Rio Bob suggested because to silence Mac totally is also unfair - as others pointed out, he knows what he is talking about when it comes to history, social life etc. He is NOT a monger and should not post here under SHARED EXPERIENCE, he is not contributing to this purpose of the board. He is contirbuting in other ways.

These are my 2 Centavos

Carlos

An afterthought - I just took the book from Mario de Adrade "O heroi sem nenhum Carater" off the book-shelf and was reading a little bit - it describes the life of Macunaima - the hero without any caracter. I do not know if this applies to our Mac.

Carlos

As long as Macunaima will challenge every post and every part of every post with condescending attitudes, and talk down to people as though their opinion means shit and his own is the one and only true way, obviously to boost his own ego's, it will affect this board to a large degree.

We all learn from each other, but some teachers are embittered, know-it-all assholes, arrogant, pontificating and boring fucks. Like Macu.

In fact he deeply dislikes mongers and is a plague for the forum.

IMO to give him his own thread, unless Jackson doesn't mind if the ISG's precious space is used by Macu as a free tool to promote his own notoriety with some daily diatribes ("Macu's editorial"), is a VERY bad idea. I personnaly like better the Rio's Bob and Carlos pervert yet good idea to restrict him to Nibs room. Or to ban him.

I'd be happy to avoid posting discussion stuff on the Reports 2005 board. Note that this doesn't mean I'll never say anything there, but I can see why discussions between myself and certain other posters might annoy other folks when posted on a thread that's specifically about reports.

As for being a "serial antagonist", I have been as cordial as anyone could be while certain of the people complaining here have tossed every insult in the book at me for the capital sin of disagreeing with their expert opinion about Rio. Exec Talent, in particular, has been very personal with his insults, while complaining all the while that I'm not respecting his point of view. As far as I can see, "respect" to guys like him means "don't contradict a fucking word I say or you'll be sorry".

So it's hard for me to believe that certain people's supposedly delicate sensibilities are being so battered by my attitude.

Again, I can understand why folks don't want arguments on the 2005 thread but there I will point out that it takes two to tango. Shit, Euro comes on with a big post regarding how he's falling in love with a termas pro. I post in response, saying one thing and one thing only: be careful because the women who work the termas know how to manipulate the illusion of love very well. Now, if my post is spam, what of Euro's, which also isn't a "report" but a discussion - and a very interesting one, to my mind - about the possibility of love blooming from a commercial relationship? And what about the same five or six guys who then whine on and on, ad nauseaum, about the fact that my opinion isn't what they want to hear, whatever I post? (To wit, Loverboy's recent comments or Jame's bitching that I was "misinforming" people about the Rio Film Festival?)

I can hardly be accused of spamming the board on my lonesome when this is the kind of stuff that's going on.

Maybe all this interviewing with beautiful working girls and not having enough cash for a session is giving the poor fellow blue balls. Although these girls are up for almost anything, I doubt his wife will let him do anal sex nor CIM/COF. That idea isn't meant to be insulting, it is purely academic. Is it wrong that he should vent his frustrations through this board? Yes. But, being restricted to his own particular thread is punishment enough.

although i did not go back through all of macunaima's posts, he still contributes useful information on the subject of women in brasil. this, for me, meets the minimum requirement for posting, and i would like to see his posts continue. at the same time, i don't have any patience for judgemental or inflammatory posts, having been the recipient of several in the past. maybe you should use this poll as a warning that if he persists in passing judgement on the behavior (or wishes, dreams, hopes) of other posters here, then he should be limited to nibu's thread. you might be able to sell tickets to the conversations they have.

nibu: "hey macu, any new info on xxx video arcades, porn shops, peep shows, or horny midgets in rio?"

maco: "your question sounds like a cry for help. you appear to be using sex to quench an aching desire for personal fulfillment. the problem is that i'm not the right sort of doctor to offer you help. moreover, i don't give a damn."

nibu: "so, macu, what about bondage supplies, extreme body piercing, masochistic orgies, and rep001?"

Before voting please read the policy on serial antagonists

[url]http://www.usasexguide.info/forum/announcement-serialantagonists.php[/url]

The following is what I believe sums our friend:- A direct quote -:
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"Stealth Serial Antagonists are more difficult to identify. A Stealth Serial Antagonist will mask his personal attacks and/or SPAM messages by mixing them in with what appears to be genuine conversation along with tidbits of information. In many cases, he will appear to be a reasonable, although somewhat slightly abrasive, poster who it would appear from reading only one or a few of his reports is merely commenting on other reports or simply responding to attacks made against him.

This is the art of the stealth Serial Antagonist: Individually, his reports would not appear to be deliberately antagonistic, yet he consistently seems to find himself in the midst of arguments with other forum members, at times even playing the role of the victim.

I'm tired of these guys: They disrupt The Forum, they discourage other members from posting, they waste my time, and they rarely provide any useful information. For everybody's benefit, Serial Antagonists must be controlled or banned from the Forum as quickly as possible.

Here's the problem: They're difficult to identify.

Stealth Serial Antagonists can only be identified by their pattern of reporting across many reports, not by their specific individual reports. Identifying them requires that someone must investigate the history of their contributions to the Forum and render a subjective opinion.

Personally, I just don't have the time to read all the Serial Antagonist's reports, and read all the related reports from other Members, and then try to identify who actually started the problems from those members who are just responding to the original attacks, all so I can render some sort of Solomon-like decision that usually leads to somebody getting quarantined or banned, which leads to more emails criticizing my decision and enumerating the perceived flaws in my assessment of the situation. "
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It is pretty clear that everytime he posts it their is major disruption to the board.

Oh, c'mon, RF. Have I EVER said shit like "your attitude seems to be a cry for help"? For christsakes...

Jackson,

This guy should be permanently quarantined. Reasons are too numerous to list. I never thought he contributed anything substantial, except to state the obvious most of the time. He always likes to crawl under everybody's skin, (characteristic of a "Stealth Serial Antagonists") enticing arguments.

He is too intelligent (as well as not with a caustic mouth) to be permanently banned. So give him his own thread and let him blabber there to his hearts content. Let the main sections be clutter free of all his endless nonsense.

Bandy

I'm kinda new here, but I've been lurking a while, and I've read most of Mac's posts. My vote lies in the first three options. I think he should stay and keep posting. He obviously know a lot about Rio, but it's his very perceptive views about the mentality and motives of garotas that serves as a major reality check for most gringos like me.

My only suggestion to Mac is that he try to be more aware that his "non-mongering" status is fine as long as he keeps that fact very low-key. It's precisely because he smashes a lot of illusions (and delusions) about garotas that he should stay and not be banned.

Guys,

You know, I think what has been happening lately in the Rio 2005 Report section has happened all over the different forums over the years. I call them the classical prostitution/mongerer discussions about different aspects of the hobby that are ALWAYS guaranteed to bring on very heated, protracted debates. The most prominent ones that come to mind right now, in no particular order:

1. Does overpaying ruin it for the next guy?
2. Man, these women are so different from Western women. They aren't doing it for the money, they really enjoy it.
3. I was her first client.
4. Gosh, I am in love with this girl! Can it be real?
5. But she's only a poor girl that's hooking to get a college education.
6. Can real love bloom out of a commercial relationship?
7. Real sex isn't really free vs. why pay for the cow when you can get the milk for free.
8. I wanna take this girl out of the business, marry her and take her to (insert any Western country).
9. I think I made her cum ten times in one night! Did she fake it?
10. You get what you pay for - true or false?
11. My mongering helps people who otherwise wouldn't have any job at all.
12. Perceptions and realities of the P4P environment.
13. Regular girl vs. non-pro vs. semi-pro vs. hardcore hooker. What is she?
14. Does she really like me? Or does she just like my money?
15. Am I exploiting her? Should I feel bad about mongering?

I think that anytime anyone comments on any of these or similar issues or responds to them, a big discussion is almost guaranteed to ensue. I think this is mainly due to the fact that these issues are so common and logical that almost all of us have pondered them at one point in time, regardless of our different mongering styles, socioeconomic backgrounds, sexual and women-related preferences, and regional considerations, and because they are issues on which most of us have pretty entrenched opinions. I think if engaging in discussions about these and similar issues makes one a serial antagonist, Macunaima isn't the only one to be blamed. Let's see, is there actually anyone out there who can honestly say he has never engaged in any discussion about the above? I can't.

Considering how popular these topics have been, I can't really say that they are off-topic for me. They clearly relate to mongering and address common mongering experiences. Of course, the relative relevance and usefulness of each individual comment or rebuttal for any of us varies. But I don't think that they are not useful as a whole and per se.

EA

[QUOTE=Bubba Boy]This particular poster is not a monger, he quite clearly states he has never mongered and never intends to. He posts only to make comments on other mongers reports. Generally his posts annoy a number of people and the board basically gets way off topic responding to his criticisms. Generally, but not always, no real info gets posted in the report section for several days after one of his bouts and everything calms down. Hence, he causes major disruptions to the report section, which in my opinion he has no business posting in because he doesn't monger and hence does not have a report to write. If he must post, he should at least do it in an appropriate section. I believe his own section could be a solution. It would stop the disruption he causes to the main report section and give the people that still want to read is postings the opportunity to do so. A win win for everybody.[/QUOTE]
Word.

I agree with the previous posts that Macunaima meets Jackson's definition of a serial antagonist. I voted for exclusion into his own section.

His posts are not without value, but his style is usually incendiary. I don't think he is capable of the bonhomie and cordiality with other mongers that Jackson demands of participants on the forum.

Giving him his own section would at least stop the other Brazil threads from turning into the Macunaima show.

El Austriaco, your thoughts are insightful and helpful. I myself are among many others who have engaged in heated discussion. But, as in "real life," there is a big difference between doing it respectfully and informatively and doing it just to boost one's own ego, which I believe Mac does. Engaging in discussion does not make one a Serial Antagonist. What makes one a Serial Antagonist is one who meets Jackson's criteria. And he definitely DOES. If you don't like the criteria then that's another issue that you should take up with Jackson.

I also appreciate Cachorro's reference to Mac's "incendiary style." It's not only about the message but the tone of the message and the messenger. The very same discussions that we have engaged with him could have gone a whole lot smoother if he wasn't so full of himself and needed to be right all the time. Tigers don't change their stripes and neither would he.

You also state that we have differing mongering styles, preferences, etc. Well we, us MONGERERS, indeed do. I have no value for input from those who aren't mongerers, at least to some degree. This a forum for us MONGERERS to share our experiences and help each other out. It is like the difference between an actor helping another actor with his technique vs. a film critic helping an actor with his technique. In short, it takes one to help one. This "film critic," I say again, shoud be OUT!

With Respect,

Doc

I started posting more or less regularly about 6 months ago was for ethical reasons. In anthropology, you're supposed to return your interpretations to the people you're getting info from. If you don't you're just using them. So that's been my main motivation here: nothing more, nothing less.

I've extracted a lot of info from this site over the past three years, as have several other Brazilian and American researchers. Of all these people, with the exception of the gang from Cadernos Pagú, I'm the only one who DOESN'T want to see prostitution banned and sexual tourists harassed in Brazil. Most people who use this site for info the way I do see prostitutes as "poor little victimized girls who need to be saved from the evil foreign scumbags" and they use strategic cuts 'n pastes from the posts here, taken wildly out of context, to "prove" their point. Over the last six months I've gone to conference after conference here as this issue has heated up (thanks to USAID's new anti-prostitution orientation and a $400,000 grant from the UN and Portugal to the Brazilian Federal Police) and everywhere I go, this site is on some yahoo's power-point as "evidence" of the "booming sexual tourism problem in Brazil".

I thought that the polite and ethical thing to do would be to post my take on the info I'm extracting from this site as well as stuff from the fieldwork my wife and I have been involved in over the last 4 years with Copa pros. These posts were not meant to "belittle" anyone and given the number of positive e-mails I've received regarding them, at least some folks find them useful.

Apparently, however, there's a small but hard-core minority of mongers on this site who seem to feel that any realistic appraisal of why women are selling sex in Copa "kills their buzz". It seems that in order to get their rocks off, these guys have to believe that the women are doing what they're doing because they are either uncontrolable sex kittens who just can't get enough or because they are sincerely falling in love with "superior" foreign men who "know how to treat their women better". Now, for every rule there is an exception or two, but in general, these ideas have about as much basis in reality as the idea that men and dinosaurs walked the Earth together 13 thousand years ago or that the moon is made of green cheese. Copa prostitutes do not fall in love with guys who barely speak their language (but who just happen to make what's considered a small fortune in Brazil) because they just can't control their hearts or twats: they do so because it's GOOD BUSINESS, for reasons that I've gone into in my posts on the 2005 board.

Now, this is the only thing I've been repeating and if it is "serial antagonism" it is so because saying ANYTHING that goes against certain peoples' views on life and prostitution will inevitably cause a stir. With all due respect to Jackson, his definition of "serial antagonism" is so broad as to be almost useless, a fact he well recognizes whe he says that it's "subjective". By the guidelines posted below, a guy who honestly, sincerely thinks that the Cubs are superior to the Brewers could be called a serial antagonist if there were a half dozen Brewer enthusiasts on the board looking to pick a fight.

But what the fuck, man. I really don't need the aggravation, you know? I've done my part for ethics in the social sciences and really, it's far more interesting for me to watch the show than to comment on it.

So I think I'll just head back to submarine mode for awhile and just keep enjoying the parade.

Doc Bill, I think you got it exactly right. It is not what Macunaima writes or how he writes it but who he is. He has absolutely no credibility. He is an academic. If someone who actually has been to a termas says to me, "hey dude, you are crazy for falling in love with a termas girl, she is only after your money," then at least I am hearing from someone I know has an opinion based on personal experience. If a girl who used to work in a termas says the same thing, again, she has a personal experience at least worth listening to.

However, I am not interested in being lectured REPEATEDLY by someone who has never been in the game. What makes these forums valuable is that they are shared experiences, not speculation. The problem I have with Macunaima is that he has nothing of value to share with me. Academics enjoy sitting around postulating about what might or might not be because their lives are so void of anything meaningful. They are fascinated with people who are actually in the game.

I want to hear about Euro's real experience with a termas girl, not some academic going on ad nauseam about how she is only after his money. Gee Wally, I never thought of that! You mean she may not actually love him?

Macunaima should be relegated to watching SILENTLY from the sidelines. He is not in the game and does nothing to advance the ball.

I for one am in favor letting Mac continue to burst bubbles. The cold water he throws on the fantasies of some of our dreamy-eyed mongers should be fair warning to the rest of us of the perils of thinking with our small head and totally ignoring realty. He does speak in generalities and because of this there may be the exceptional Copa GP that really does have the milk of human kindness running through her veins. I would venture to guess that in plus 95% of the time he is correct in his evaluation of the situation even though he is not immediately privy to "relationship"? of the dreamer and the GP involved.

I agree his style is caustic and the person reporting his experience could easily have his tender ego bruised by his "in your face" approach. If I am reading him correctly, part of his mission in writing in this forum is as a "guardian angel" for those of us who still believe in fairy tales. Entao, por favor continua suas opiniaos o senhor.

"I started posting more or less regularly about 6 months ago was for ethical reasons."


Ethical reasons ?

lol

Macunaima started posting more or less regularly here about six monthes ago, JUST when the brazzil.com forum, where he's one of the most active 'participant', became very slow and when the 'audience' turned too limited to boost his enormous ego.

So El Austriaco, if you're fascinated by his style, I strongly recommand you to consult brazzil.com : Macu has MORE than 6000 POSTS on this site (!!!), and surely still continues to spread there daily his boring and condescending diatribes.

ISG is not the right place for this kind of poster. And as it's also not a free support for all the pedantics fucks who hang around on the net, there's IMO absolutly NO reasons to give him his own section here.

6000 posts!!! This is how it starts. Ban him, ban his children, hell, ban his children's children!

As he himself has proclaimed to not having any EXPERIENCE in mongering and being an oberver his opinion has very little value. Thus his isolation to entirely own area would be the only humane solution.

my 2 cents.

P

I vote for Macunaima. His posts were interesting. I know Brazil much better than the average mongerer (I speak fluent Portuguese), and I did learn a few things from his posts.

His posts were annoying sometimes, but rarely offensive.

I think many of you guys do not like him just because he thinks different.

I think that it is good to have some perception of the people that hate us and that want to destroy our hobby, and that's what Macunaima brings to us.

Regards. BB.

I side with Le Dragueur, El Austriaco & Bimbo Boy. At this current moment major forces in the U.S. are attempting to do all of us, exactly what some are suggesting Jackson do to Macunaima. I believe there are times when Macunaima takes himself or his job far to serious. An example "your attitude seems to be a cry for help? For christsakes..." Hey MAC, Royalflush was actually siding with you. Chill out. This forum is a classroom of sorts, but certainly not a formal one.

As Bimbo Boy stated "I think that it is good to have some perception of the people that hate us and that want to destroy our hobby, and that's what Macunaima brings to us." I agree. I believe the problem is not so much what Macunaima says, but rather how, which offends others. Macunaima appears to see life in black & white and in truth, life is really various shades of gray.

RonnyRon

[QUOTE=Pro]"I started posting more or less regularly about 6 months ago was for ethical reasons."


Ethical reasons ?

lol

Macunaima started posting more or less regularly here about six monthes ago, JUST when the brazzil.com forum, where he's one of the most active 'participant', became very slow and when the 'audience' turned too limited to boost his enormous ego.

So El Austriaco, if you're fascinated by his style, I strongly recommand you to consult brazzil.com : Macu has MORE than 6000 POSTS on this site (!!!), and surely still continues to spread there daily his boring and condescending diatribes.

ISG is not the right place for this kind of poster. And as it's also not a free support for all the pedantics fucks who hang around on the net, there's IMO absolutly NO reasons to give him his own section here.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, years ago I saw him on LonelyPlanets.com and it was the same thing in the Brazil section. A couple of guys mentioned how they loved Brazilian women compared to American women and that was it this guy Mac was writing pages and pages of nonsense beating these young innocent guys up. It was so boring after awhile I just stopped visiting the site.

I don't understand how his condescending diatribes have anything to do with anthropology, this escapes me, can someone please educate me on this, Mac?

Sure as an anthropoligist he can explain if he is an expert on the habits and motivations of the Brasilian GDP and how at times we can be taken in by their charms. But the way he goes about it and how he has to put people down as if they are complete fools and he is the only one that knows everything just speaks volumes about the type of person who he is that just ruins the mood of this board repeatedly.

As we all know on the web we can say anything about what we are, true or not but his behavior does not remind me of an anthropoligist it reminds me of a Serial Antagonist.

[quote=macunaima]i started posting more or less regularly about 6 months ago was for ethical reasons. in anthropology, you're supposed to return your interpretations to the people you're getting info from. if you don't you're just using them. so that's been my main motivation here: nothing more, nothing less. [/quote]
originally i voted to only keep mac away for 30 days from the board in order to let him cool off and in order to give the rio reports thread actually back to mongers exchanging reports. but after this, i would like to change my vote to ban him permanently.

what arrogance, and what stupidity! this guy thinks he is so much smarter than the average monger, studying us for his research. but then he makes these shit-for-brains pseudoscience statements that show that he is just cluelessly and aimlessly wasting everybody's time.

here is how research really works: you try to leave your research subject as much undisturbed as you possibly can, trying to find out everything you can without contaminating your sources. after all of your research is done and after you have published in peer-reviewed journals, then you can think about returning your findings to the subjects of your research. mac, if you tell this crap to your professor that you told us in the quote above, you will never graduate. he or she will just fire your ass for incompetence.

don't shit where you eat, mac!

I agree that the tone of many of Mac's posts are superior and annoying, but he does present facts occasionally that could only come from a local, and therefore gives a unique perspective.

I don't like the long winded philosophical debates in the 2005 trip reports, where people are otherwise looking for solid information. But if he would post more in a general info section it would be more appropriate. Even if he is stating that the world is flat every day--who cares? If what he says isn't true or worth reading then scroll on or debate up a storm. It doesn't hurt to make sure our fantasies can pass the reality test.

Peace

I voted he should be banned. I believe he was given all the space he needed to make his point. However, when you bring the same bs over and over again for the past 6 months almost as if looking for a reaction you are seriously ruining the forum. Placing him in a separate section would be a waste of resourses considering he enjoys the negative attention he gets elsewhere.

Most of the people that benefit from this website are casual posters that only come here to read or share facts and pointers concerning p4p action. Therefore, I fail to understand how beneficial it is for anyone to know how unethical it is to get a BBBJ or have a relationship with a terma girl.

Honestly! I find the style of many American posters a tad offensive but it is not meant to be and so I do not take offence. Macunaima makes well informed posts. If you do not like them just ignore them as you would on any other forum where a poster annoyed you.

He should be shot, burned-alive-while-dying and his dead body fired out of a cannon in front of Help while all the P4P garotas clap, laugh and perform public BBBJs for 25R.

Just kidding,
JWadd

Ironically, Macunaima is actually one of the moderators at Brazzil.com :P

I don't see him as being off topic. He has his pet issues but they are all on-topic. He is often responding to an original poster's off-topic post. If EVERYBODY would save the reports section for just reports it would make the forum better as a whole, but it's probably never going to happen.

I certainly don't have any problem with him bursting the bubble of tourons who think they are 'in love.' Any argument about him being inappropriate for this board could be directed against a number of those sorts of posters many times over IMO.

And yes, he IS one of the only voices of reason down in Rio right now. You guys may or may not realize it, but there is a GROWING anti-tourist sentiment there these days. If you think he is anti-prostitution, I suggest you re-read his posts, or simply learn how to read in the first place!

More and more it looks like Macu will be banned - Jackson is doing it the right way asking the members and not just banning him.

If the majority says now: ban, so ban him, where is the problem. I am just in Rio and I have fun and use ISG all the time as a reference. There are escellent reports and I do not want to have people refrain from posting only because they are afraid to be ¨relegated¨by our Heroi sem caracter.

I am for free speach but this does not mean others can be intimdated and lectured.

My two centavos for today

Carlos

[QUOTE=Bango Cheito]You guys may or may not realize it, but there is a GROWING anti-tourist sentiment there these days. If you think he is anti-prostitution, I suggest you re-read his posts, or simply learn how to read in the first place![/QUOTE]

I think you're a bit out of target on this statement. There is no anti-tourist sentiment in Rio, never was and never will be. The thing that they are resenting is SEXUAL tourism. Now its important to understand that these 2 issues are not related. There are loads of tourists who do not participate mongering activities and they are and will be always welcome. Whereas mongers are not so welcome, mainly because in last few years that activity hasn't been discreet and quite a few have been looking for minors (which really pisses brasilians off).
What comes to Macu, he has a bad habit of preaching and looking down mongers. This pisses the mongers off.
Anyway no observer knows how any activity works. You can watch any sports in TV but it doesn't make you a player, no matter how much you 'observe'.

bango,

i think you have missed the point, even though you seem to know how to read. this site is for those of us who have "been there, done that" or are planning to "be there, doing that." the trip reports thread is for shared experiences.

if i wanted social commentary from some academic, i am sure i can find it. if i wanted to listen to doctor phil, all i have to do is turn on the tv. the reason i come to this site is to gain insight from others who have had real experiences.

i have nothing against macunaima personally. don't know him, don't care to. have nothing against his message, which is neither new nor enlightening. the problem that i have is he is not in the game. his comments are for the sole benefit of satisfying his ego. like i said previously, he probably lists this site as a place he has published on his cv.

i am all for free speech, just not freeloaders. get in the game, spend your nickel, then tell us about it. i am all ears. ramble on endlessly about something of which you have no firsthand knowledge and find yourself talking to the wall because i walked away long ago.

i encourage people to vote to ban him. he has had his 15 minutes of ego-inflating fame. let's move on to discussing real experiences and sharing real information, not idle speculation from some academic.

[quote=perkele]i think you're a bit out of target on this statement. there is no anti-tourist sentiment in rio, never was and never will be. the thing that they are resenting is sexual tourism.[/quote]

not entirely true. officially, the authorities are proclaiming to combat child sex tourism, i.e. the travel of tourists specifically for the purpose of having sex with minors, which is highly illegal. but like in so many other cases, of course, people conveniently fail to differentiate between regular mongers who have p4p sex with adults (nothing illegal about that) and the child sex tourists (who are criminals and should be treated as such). just look at the boat bust incident this past june and how it was covered in the press. allegations of drugs, of minors, which were covered quite a bit worldwide. all allegations which ultimately turned out to be incorrect. did you hear a lot about that in the press? no, you didn't. so despite what really happened, the impression remained the same: these are the sex tourists that come to brazil.

the fact is, as public opinion in western countries is increasingly shifting against mongering and sexual tourism as such (whether illegal or not), and laws are passed accordingly, third-world countries like brazil are coming under more and more pressure to do something about it. and since western governments are ready to put their dollars where their mouth is, countries like brazil also handily profit from that. but of course, the semiliberal public still wouldn't care all that much unless this wasn't being touted as a crusade on behalf of the "poor children being exploited by perverted western tourists".

who gains from that?

- the brazilian government - by getting money to combat sex tourism, free press coverage abroad, and coming off as getting tough on child tourists. great and free advertising (and political benefits, of course).
- the different organizations working on stopping prostitution - by getting funding for their different programs, as has been correctly pointed out by macu, btw.
- the media - because a story like "28 american sex tourists busted" is just so much more of a seller than "americans arrested for visa violations". so who cares about the truth here?

and of course, with so many winners, there has to be a loser. a villain, that's what's needed. and who would that be? all of us mongers, who are being portrayed by a lot of people as vicious drug addicted perverts corrupting innocent children abroad. in brazil, in the states, everywhere, and it's just getting worse. and whether what we do is actually legal or illegal doesn't really matter all that much to whose out there who just think that mongering and p4p are the worst sins under the sun.

that's the game being played here.

in that respect, i have to give macu credit, and i have to agree with bangu. macu is one of the few people researching prostitution that is not conducting his research for the specific purpose of curbing or denying us our rights, based on what he's posted here. to see that may take going beyond the recent discussion in the rio 2005 reports section, but it's here, too. he might be caustic, he might be confrontational, even demeaning, and he might be antagonistic at times. but at least, he doesn't have a hidden agenda.

i just say, let's be fair.

but in rio, is there resentment against legal sex tourism? in the hotels, in the cafes, in the termas, in the love motels? of course not. in the hotel where i stayed this year and last year, at the reception desk, there was this huge poster advising of the illegality of **** sex. at the same time, was it any problem taking a girl to the room, of course after properly documenting her and verifying her age? no, it wasn't. so i feel safe to say that while the brazilian governement, authorities and the press might be inclined to create a stir sometimes, it's mostly to show off, and life just goes on as usual in rio de janeiro. the way it should.

i'd be more concerned about our western governments, though.

i am just sorry that nobody, really nobody, is doing anything about real child molesters. whether brazilian or child sex tourists, p4p or not.

El Austriaco.

Well argumented point of view, but still you see this issue from your mongering point of view. Yes it is true that you can take a girl to just about any hotel in Rio without problems but they allow this only because the competition is very high in Rio, there will always be hotels that allow 'quests' so majority allows them.

'Normal' brasilians do not accept mongers and sexual tourism in any form, minors or not. This I have learned through my brasilian friends who never said anything until I asked how they see that kind of tourism. Actually every brasilian I've spoken to wishes that the economy would increase so much that no woman would be in need to become a prostitute.

On the otherhand I have lots of friends in Copa who benefit directly or indirectly from sexual tourism and they totally agree with it and wish that there would be more mongers in Rio, which is rather empty nowadays.

Anyway mongering in Rio is rather fucked up at this moment. Copacabana rather empty, no mongers no girls. I didn't see any newbies (girls) on my last visit and I gave up. VM was raided and the police is present 24/7... I heard a rumour that majority of the girls have moved to Fortaleza, Natal and Recife where all european tourists go for vacation, who knows.

Anyway happy mongering and be careful.....

P

Well, part of the reason that some Brazilians do look down on sex tourists might precisely be because we have been pictured in such a negative and downright inaccurate fashion in the media. If you got the impression that all sex tourists are basically kiddy-chasing pervert criminals, who would openly associate oneself with that?

About half a year ago, I chatted on the Internet with a college-educated lady, a marine biologist, from Fortaleza, who was complaining heavily about the tourists there. When I suggested to her that most sex tourists a) don't ever engage in anything illegal and b) they are not doing anything that the Brazilians are not doing themselves multifold, she pretty much freaked and basically told me that it was these tourists that were causing prostitution in the first place. Which, of course, is utterly preposterous, but I only thought I'd mention this to show how swept away even very intelligent people can get sometimes, totally ignoring the reality of the situation.

In other words, there's a lot of ignorance about mongering and prostitution. In addition, in the current political and social climate, it's politically correct to condemn mongering and prostitution.

But then, of course, some people might just not like to see things out in the open (sex tourism) that they secretly enjoy themselves. What I am trying to say is that admitting that one is a mongerer is almost always frowned upon in a Latin culture (I should know, I live in one). In women's eyes, it simply makes you a horrible person. The guys become scared that their wives might be thinking whether they are like that also, so they openly deny it. And the people that raise their eyebrow highest on you might just be the same people who do exactly the same as you, but just won't admit to it. Call them the closet mongerers. Those are the people that, once nobody else is listening to your conversation, will ask you for directions or beg you to take them along the next time. LOL.

The message could be from Nike: Just do it. Just don't talk about it (as long as my better half or anybody else could figure out I wanna do it, too).

I don't know what your experience has been, Perkele, but I really haven't felt any resentment against me in Rio. And every time I went to one of the local termas or cheap *****houses, the guys that were there actually were so suprised to see a gringo there that they bought me drinks, showed me their other favorite mongering places, took me out on the town, so quite to the contrary. Seriously. But maybe that was because I speak Portuguese, keep a low profile, and just behave like anyone else trying to have a good time without causing any trouble. Who knows.

And from the sheer numbers of Brazilians that go there, it doesn't matter what they say or think about sex tourism.

So in other words, people who condem sex tourism might just be ignorant, politically correct, or hypocritical. Or everything at the same time. Remember, talk is cheap. They don't have to put their money where their mouth is.

EA

I say ease up on Macu and let him be.If anything if what he is saying happens to be off the topic, then yes he should post in the general or living section.He makes sense about the garotas, it's better to be on the side of caution and be careful with the garotas, so you wont get hurt.I will agree that since he doesn't monger he doesn't get to see or experience what we are talking about, so I take his opinions/generalizations with a grain of salt.

Macu hopefully this is clue for you to tone down a bit and direct your posts in the appropriate section.As far as what Brazilians think about mongerers, not too many people who don't monger care to much for this "hobby" no matter what country.Hell ,I never cared for P4P before, until I got my first taste in a foreign country(Mex),(still not into the U.S scene).Thats why I don't tell non mongers what I do and I keep a low profile when mongering,which is a good idea for EVERYONE in this game.

This is the first I've heard of this. In fact, I just spoke to a friend who was there last week & mentioned nothing like this.

Please explain here or on the 2005 board. (particularly since I'm going to be there at the end of November)

Thanks!

SD


[QUOTE=Perkele]El Austriaco.

Anyway mongering in Rio is rather fucked up at this moment. Copacabana rather empty, no mongers no girls. I didn't see any newbies (girls) on my last visit and I gave up. VM was raided and the police is present 24/7... I heard a rumour that majority of the girls have moved to Fortaleza, Natal and Recife where all european tourists go for vacation, who knows.

Anyway happy mongering and be careful.....

P[/QUOTE]

Hi - we are on the Macu´s Serial Anatgonist board and not discussing here if Copa has enough girls or not (at present time it has). So Please keept a little discipline.

Carlos

He'e intelligent. He knows Rio well and has good insight into Brasilian culture. He writes exceptionally well. He is a wealth of information into rio and p4p. He has pissed off a few sensitive people of lower intelligence. Sure lets ban all the guys that take time to share their opinions then this forum would contain no useful information. I think he should be rewarded not banned.

[blue]Greetings Everyone,

I've read everyone's comments and I have come to several conclusions:

1. Macunaima is not a monger, and consistently espouses a general disdain for those who choose to monger.

2. Macunaima repeats what is essentially the same general philosophical opinions, which is a form of SPAM.

3. Macunaima is constantly engaged in caustic exchanges with other Forum Members. In other words, he doesn't play and get along with others.

4. Macunaima appears to be an intelligent and knowledgeable individual, which is irrelevant in a serial antagonist evaluation.

Therefore, I have decided to relegate him to his own thread titled "Macunaima in Brazil" where he is free to rant, rave and espouse his opinions to his heart's content. Those of you who wish to participate in discussions with him are welcome to do so in his thread.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]

Jackson for Supreme Court Justice.

Seriously, thanks!

SD


[QUOTE=Admin][blue]Greetings Everyone,Therefore, I have decided to relegate him to his own thread titled "Macunaima in Brazil" where he is free to rant, rave and espouse his opinions to his heart's content. Those of you who wish to participate in discussions with him are welcome to do so in his thread.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue][/QUOTE]

Hi Jackson,

This was a good decision.

Thank you

Carlos