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i've never been 2 switzerland, p.a. know a little about it , of course. i get a weekly newsletter which keeps me well informed of what's happening in the world of drug reform and the on-going "war on drugs". most of europe it appears is much more tolerant, particularly re. marijuana. the u.s. to my disgust continues 2 attempt 2 bully other nations towards the harsh intolerance and severe criminal penalties we have here, officially.
mexicans did strike me as being friendlier and more down-to-earth than most americans. perhaps wealth gives us "bourgeois" attitudes, at least many of us.
from what i know of dutch society, most of the rest of the world ought to be following in their footsteps. i too was aware of the comparative statistics re. teen pregnancy. i wasn't aware that dutch teens are less sexually active, or become sexually active at a later age. if so, that surprises me and frankly goes against my own ideal, which is that adolescents should become sexually active early, with the knowledge, guidance and support of older adults. this is a bit off topic, but i do feel very strongly that we should do this, instead of preaching abstinence and forcing young people into clandestine and often risky behavior, and i also feel that adolescence is a crucial opportunity for developing either positive or negative attitudes about sex, which may last a lifetime. if we're ever to break the generational cycle of puritanical hypocrisy, we must stop attempting to force or intimidate our youth into mandatory celibacy.
although the dutch and some others have become more tolerant of prostitution, i'm sure they have a long way to go in ending the social stigma. as you may know the u.s. laws prohibit foreigners with prostitution records from entering the u.s. again, the u.s. does what it can to dissuade countries like holland from becoming more tolerant. anyway, my point is that one can't judge how women would react under a society which was truly free and tolerant, because there aren't any which come that close. you've forced me a bit on the defensive on this one, joe, but i prefer to maintain my faith that with some extreme radical social change, we humans are capable of becoming rather similar to our close relatives the chimpanzees, who are well known for having a whole lotta sex.
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ah, vt, don't want to put you on the defensive, and i certainly agree with you about the us and its desire to imprint behavior and morality patterns on the world. particularly now that those patterns are more conservative. let's simply acknowledge that using the us as a yardstick is, well, using yards when the rest of the world uses meters...
that said, i've got to disagree with you again, this time regarding the encouragement of sexual activity among teens. i applaud the dutch statistics, as it says to me that in a society where sex is open, obvious and discussed, teens have the ability to make choices they deem proper without being channelled into either a kind of "bad dog" celibacy or a "hey you're young, go for it" active state. the age of consent in the netherlands is 12, and teens actually have the ability to become legal prostitutes at 16, so it's not as if there's an overarching legal pressure to stay celibate, as there is here (where there's an embarrasing number of statuatory [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] cases when one kind is a year older than the other, with the latter being below the age limit.) to me, the essence of choice is defined by the context and knowledge conveyed, and the degree of freedom to choose that's given, not what the specifics of the choices made happen to be.
by the same token, i don't know all that many kids in their early to mid-teens (and i know quite a few) who are emotionally mature enough to fully understand the full nature of sexual relationships, which certainly go beyond the "damn, that feels good" level. i've got a niece who's now fifteen and who's been sexually active since twelve, and the lesson she's gotten from sex (and this is as she stated it to me) is that if she's old enough to do what adults do physically then she's old enough to do anything she pleases, as that's what adults do. i've spent time working in schools, and it's frightening the number of thirteen-year old girls who want to get pregnant as quickly as possible because a baby will make them be grown up. yikes!
i'm in favor of people who have the ability to truly understand the consequences of their choices, no matter what their age or circumstance, having the ability to make those choices. (that "truly" is, of course, potentially a big caveat.) we are all ultimately the captains of our own ships, and we'd best learn how to sail them. but setting out to go around the world (to painfully extend this metaphor...) without proper understanding and preparation is tantamount to suicide, and by the same token, encouraging someone to set out on such a journey who is unprepared has the potential to be criminal.
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yes, statutory [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] charges against a 16-year-old with a 15-year-old girlfriend are an abomination. we get this sometimes here, and it results in huge public pressure on the prosecution authorities to get a life and go catch some crooks instead.
good point, do adults tell children about the obligations incumbent on an adult citizen of civil society, or do they tell them, “it’s ok for us but not for you, nyah nyah nyah”?
in contexts such as the un fussing over “child soldiers” – often no younger than many of our parents who joined up to fight hitler – many jurisdictions operate with a binary categorisation of “child”/”adult”, with 18 as the watershed. this is absurd, we need a tripartite classification of “child”, “adolescent” (or “young adult” etc.) and “full adult”, with the breaks at perhaps 13 and 21. lots of other societies have done this.
if i can get this post through at all, it will be my last. for the first weeks of the new board everything was fine, but now i get endless loops of log-in – welcome philip augustus – submit – you are not logged in – log-in -- welcome philip augustus – submit – this is not a valid thread – restart board – log-in -- welcome philip augustus – submit – you are not logged in. no reply from jackson. enough, already.
so “goodbye and thanks for all the fish”. give rn my regards when she turns up. happy punting, happy crusading, happy chatting. been nice knowing you.
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Philip -- I've had the same problem as you, at times. What I do is go into the forum control panel under options and turn all the cookie options to "no" and this seems to take care of things. I've found that at some point, usually after a week or so, I can change things back and they work again. I suspect it has to do with how this board stores cookies, but haven't tracked it down. I agree that the endless loop is frustrating -- you appear to be logged in, write your message, and then nothing. But I think the overall quality of conversation on this board has improved, and your posts disappearing would definitely leave a hole. I hope my suggestion will work for you and that you'll reconsider.
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Actually, JZ, I don't know if you've ever BEEN to The Netherlands, BUT ...
It is legal to VISIT a prostitute at 16. To legally BE a prostitute you must be 18. And, the age of consent is only 12 IF the parents do not object; otherwise it is 16.
So let's be careful out there.
Dickhead
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Joe:
Thanks for your kind words! I don't want to leave but this is driving me nuts.
This problem started when I already had cookies set at No-No, I put it to No-Yes to see if improved things, which it didn't. Putting it back to No-No now. I can't see any correlations at all. At least 80% of my post attempts fail due to infinite looping, apparently at random.
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Dickhead -- yes, I've been to the Netherlands several times. According to [url]www.ageofconsent.com[/url] and other places, those from the ages of 12-16 *can* consent, but they, in concert with their parents, can also bring a legal complaint against an adult. (It's unclear what happens if parents complain and the child says they consent.) I bow to your knowledge on the age of entering into the profession; I was going by my reading of laws quoted in several places which say that "traffic in persons" occurs in regard to a person under the age of 16.
Regardless, I'm [b]far[/b] from encouraging anyone to get involved with anyone below 18!! That was clearly not the thread of the conversation.
Philip -- why not create a new variation on your user name and see if that will do the trick? Use an underscore as I have or some such trick so we'll all know it's you. I empathise with your frustration, but hope you don't give in to it. You might also try cleaning out your machiine's temp files and cookies -- there's little doubt it's something on your machine, as it was on mine, and these darn things have gotten so complex it's nigh impossible to try to track down where the offending gremlin might be hiding...
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goddamn my fucking computer/isp is slow. b4 i even read the past day's post, i have something 2 say.
who of u would pay for affection? i mean, would u pay someone u like and are attracted 2 for a session of cuddling along with conversation, or while watching a show 2gether, or just to relax? how about for kissing? caressing?
isn't that what happens when people date? only they are less explicit in their communication, playing things by ear so to speak rather than explicitly coming out and saying, "i want to do this and this and this with u, and i don't mind spending this much on you to get it?
anyhow, i would pay a date explicitly for affection, cuddling, kissing, a sense of intimacy. to me, there's not much difference between that and paying for sexual intercourse. it's all from the same well of physical yearning, a need programmed in our genes. my question is, why don't human beings routinely do such things? why must some of us go through life feeling destitute of love, of affection, of connection, in our lives? why is it taboo to express these needs openly and straightforwardly? does this seem crazy to anybody out there besides me?
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hey p.a., don't give up! i don't know what we have to do to fix this website, i'm essentially computer illiterate, but maybe we should consider going professional, paying some small yearly fee for access, to pay someone who knows what the fuck they're doing to get on the case and fix problems like these as they arise.
jz, you're full of shit, man. i don't mean to be rude, but i want to speak my mind freely, don't take it too personally, i like most of what you have to say, but here at least i'm going to be honest and stand up for what i believe. i'm tired as hell of people treating teenagers like children who can't handle resposibility and who don't have minds of their own yet or know what they want. when people set arbitrary age limits on behavior, my response is to satirize the paternalism inherit in that attitude by changing the age limit to include whatever age the person wanting to set the limit is. for example, perhaps we should make people wait until they're 50 before we decide they're mature enough to be in control of their own bodies. (this is in effect what we do when we criminalize prostitution, saying that at no age may a person control his or her own body under certain circumstances). and i'm tired of having to pretend i don't find teenage girls hot as hell because according to some people that makes me a ****. shit, we let senior citizens who can barely see or hear and whose reaction reflexes are shot to hell drive automobiles, but a 14 year old isn't old enough to drive or screw? give me a break. a couple centuries ago girls routinely wed around that age, and began bearing children in their mid teens. the idea that teens are too young for sex is a modern myth.
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IMO, you guys are over-romanticizing and over-analyzing all of this stuff. Prostitution is not rocket science, and I am thankful for that. Why do you want to get into a prostitute's head? Why do you want to get into all the emotional side trips? Isn't that what sucks about having a girlfriend? Trying to figure out what she means and wants all the fucking time?
I think the morality of prostitution involves an unwritten compact NOT to try to get into each others' heads and NOT to get emotionally involved. To do so, to me, means you went into the "booking" (to use RN's term) under false pretenses.
Make sure you mutually agree in advance who gets to do what and with which and to whom and for how much. Then, enjoy the sex with no strings attached, bust an ungodly nut, and move on. That is the most moral way.
So I am more cynical than most recent posters, but I don't really think I am more cynical than the average practitioner of this hobby.
DH
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b4 i get attacked 2 viciously, let me clarify what i said in my last post. people ahould be judged as individuals, not according to cultural stereotypes or myths based on age, gender, race, etc. if we were 2 somehow establish an objective standard of competency for adult responsibilities, and graph the percentage of people who meet the standard based upon age, the graph would look like a bell curve. for example, with the case of driving an automobile, the curve would remain at a fairly steady peak of close to 100% for ages 20-say50, and thereafter slowly downturn, until by age 75 say perhaps only 50% would meet the standard. likewise, with younger people the graph would downturn more abruptly as people get younger, so that at say 13 or so it intersects with the 50th percentile. my point is, i'm not saying all 14 year olds should be judged competent, any more than i'd say all 40 year olds should be. what i'm saying is, we don't say that because a majority of 80 year olds are incompetent to drive that means all 80 year olds should be banned from driving. so why should we treat young people differently? just because more 14 year olds than 40 year olds would fail a test for physical/emotional/intellectual maturity/competency, must we ban all 14 year olds from adult rights and resposibilities?
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But VT, if we judge a given 14 or 13 or whatever year old to be worthy of the adult right to consent to sex, are we going to also give that youth or young adult all the responsibilities? Such as the right to go to prison, the right to work to support themselves, and the right to be conscripted? What do you think about that?
In my profession there are a lot of "bright line" type tests: If x is >=75.0% of y, do "a"; if x is < 75.0% of y, do "b" and don't think about it. They don't work well. So, I share your skepticism about a bright line age test for sexual consent. But the last thing we men need is a bunch of sexually active 14 year olds running around acting like hot shit without having to put up with any of the down side like working for a living. Think about it.
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Virgin terr,
(Post 11 -- 06-19-02 21:59)
"who of u would pay for affection? i mean, would u pay someone u like and are attracted 2 for a session of cuddling along with conversation, or while watching a show 2gether, or just to relax? how about for kissing? caressing?"
If I went to see a prostitute, that is exactly what I would be paying for (also for sex, but this both first and last). Let me note, however, that this is *not always* what happens on a date. The "selfish motive" is an approach to life, and I don't believe it would be possible to prove that dates are run tit-for-tat (I sincerely hope that this isn't always the case).
"My question is, why don't human beings routinely do such things? why must some of us go through life feeling destitute of love, of affection, of connection, in our lives? why is it taboo to express these needs openly and straightforwardly? does this seem crazy to anybody out there besides me?"
Some humans do, but not many. And yes, this does seem a little crazy to some other people. Still, I think that we are a rather small part of the population.
David
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vt -- first, no offense taken, and i'm glad you feel free to speak your mind, just as i can in turn feel free to disagree when i do.
i think the whole aspect about paying for affection is why people talk so much about the gfe (girlfriend experience) and its attractiveness as opposed to simply and exclusively sexual gymnastics. sometimes this is simply an aspect of people paying not to be alone, and i'm sure most providers can tell stories of guys who paid them just to talk. not everyone wants this, of course, but many do, and providers often get criticized for being too businesslike.
i think, as well, that you miss my point regarding teenagers being sexually active. i've no problem with it whatsoever if the teen is mature enough to understand the physical and emotional consequences involved and can actually make a cogent choice. i've no problem, as well, if they're sharing their training wheels with their peers -- that's something that's happened throughout history. but you preaching that they should be active is the same as the other side preaching that they shouldn't. what they need is an ability to understand what both sides of the choice will do to them, and then make their minds up and go from there. yes, there are 14-year-olds mature enough to make this decision, but i don't know that they're the majority, and i rather doubt it in fact. whether you're sick of it or not, some teenagers [b]are[/b] still children, whereas others are not. as you rightly note, people develop differently.
the problem with your analogy is that there are very clear developmental markers regarding the ability to reason, understand the consequences of your actions, and gain critical distance, and many of those markers occur during the teen years, whereas they don't in the 20s, 40s or later. we make distinctions about the ability to fully comprehend right from wrong in the courts and thesliding scale of "tried as an adult" is in place precisely because of those differences. while your historical basis regarding sex and marriage at an earlier ages may be true, there were also tons more women who died in childbirth, ended up as virtual slaves, etc.
and the point isn't whether or not you find teenage girls hot or not but what you do about that fact. and if you go after someone in their early teens the odds are that you comprehend the choices and consequences far more than they, so you have power over them and that makes you a predator. which is, of course, off topic in this thread in any event, as is this general discussion.
and dickhead, i think you're right about overanalyzing, but that's because men are involved, and we all know that if you're not doing it you tend to think or talk about doing it :-) one key difference in the equation here is that as opposed to a girfriend, figuring out what someone means or wants is something done on a highly short-term basis, as the meter is running. people pay for weirder things than emotional yoga.
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Hi folks,
I've been away from the forum and on bus. trips (Amsterdam/Dusseldorf) and never did get back to you on Nussbaum's book "Sex and Social Justice".
I'll have to check myself on the section where she deals with prostitution specfically. She examines the issue without ranting histrionics....give me some time. She covers a wide range of issues including FGM (female genital mutilation) and economic empowerment...
In the meantime, here's an excerpt from Kirkus Reviews...FYI.
Cheers,
Carl LaFong
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"I like thieves. Some of my best friends are thieves. Why, just last week we had the president of the bank over for dinner." W.C. Fields, The Barber Shop
University of Chicago law and ethics professor Nussbaum combines feminist theory and an internationalist perspective to fashion a stunning defense of justice. In a series of works (Poetic Justice, 1996; The Therapy of Desire, 1994; etc.), Nussbaum has tried to demonstrate the value of philosophy to the practical matters of everyday life; she continues that work here.
She begins with the assertion that justice consists of respecting the equal worth of all human beings, given the universal human capacities of choice and reasoning. An essential element of this respect is protecting the liberty of individuals to create lives of their own choosing. As women in general, as well as lesbian and gay men, have too often been denied such freedom, justice should be and is a central concern for feminism.
Yet Western feminism itself has too often neglected the needs and conditions of women of the non-Western world. A feminist theory of justice must concern itself both with abstract liberties, such as freedom of expression, and the practical needs of nutrition, health, education, shelter, and physical safety. Against charges that her vision of justice is a foreign idea being imposed upon other cultures, she argues that she is defending the creation of space in which free choice for all, including women, actually exists.
In another vein, against those who would impose a rigid cultural relativism, she argues that local tradition is not always an inviolable code that must remain unchallenged. Such traditions may simply reflect the most powerful voicesinvariably male. We must be suspicious of norms formed under conditions of injustice. All these themes are developed in a series of carefully crafted essays.
There are weaknesses here. Questions of sexuality are not particularly well integrated within her arguments, and as she admits, she does not deal with the question of global redistribution of wealth as an essential element of justice. Nevertheless, a brilliant book. -- Copyright ý1998, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.