German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[QUOTE=Pacman2;1321561]I was in fkk world 2 days ago and was a bit disappointed although I was able to find a real stunner. I am wondering if one fkk has a better line up than the others at the moment?[/QUOTE]Don't forget that the line up at a given club might well be weak on a Tues, but strong on a Fri or Sat night.

Line ups at FKKs during August are fragile by definition, so you have to stack the deck a bit in your favour during these months esp by hitting them on prime-time days like weekends to ensure the best selection. Things will get better on the earlier days of the week very soon, now that September and major Messe events are soon to be upon us.

O

When you're around long enough you get information from girls you've know for years, you see certsin signs and you've heard some stories a dozen times.

Back to line-up at World: Wednesday was good for an August weekday. It's vacation time, both for girls and boys. Mondays are weak at World. Some girls come on Tuesday (lingerie day) and Wednesday (3for2). Then they take Thursday off to be ready for the weekend. Fridays amd Saturdays are full, disco like atmosphere, lots of young guys drinking their ass off for 65€. Cheaper than any discotheque in Frankfurt.

HB

[quote=hessen bub; 1321662]when you're around long enough you get information from girls you've know for years, you see certsin signs and you've heard some stories a dozen times.

hb[/quote]like what kind of signs, hb? you keep saying that trafficking is a problem and you're absolutely sure it exists and, indeed. you've stated that most of the ee girls are forced (not there by choice). you've stated that "black saturdays" where girls are horrifically raped for 24 hours straight is "more common in the fkk's that most think". so what specific evidence do you have of this? you've done very good in indicting everyone else who's posted other views. but you have never backed up your own view.

i really don't understand how anyone who's as sure that this sex slavery exists so predominately in the fkk's can continue to patronize them. how do you resolve this with your own sense of morality?

the [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url] scaremongers want your tax dollars to fight this imaginary problem. they label every woman who's crossed a border to work as a "trafficked individual" or "slave". anyone who transports such a woman (such as taxi drivers in new york city now) are labelled "traffickers" when most of them are simply aiding these women to move around by transporting them and / or arranging for legitimate or false working permits.

i have no doubt that there are some cases of forced sex slavery. but that is an extremely small worldwide problem.

any monger who believes all the myths of the usa state department with regards to sex trafficking. should not be engaged in this activity. it doesn't say much for you as a person to believe that these women are being exploited while at the same time you contribute to exploiting them. at the same time. though i do not believe the myths. i try to keep my eyes open to the possibility by looking for real evidence of it.

i haven't found any so hb, if you have some. please share it with us!

[QUOTE=Ultrahappy; 1321285]I recommend reading the T&Cs of your card Amex carefully. The usual Amex card only covers insurance for "USA operators" where the charges are denominated in US dollars. That is usually not the case for most German car rental agencies. In my experience, the car rental agencies reject the usual credit card rental car insurance for most credit cards. From the travel forums, I've read, there are only a couple of specific cards that the car rental agencies accept in lieu of requiring the CDW insurance. Even then, I read that you have to provide a letter issued from your card company and sometimes, the people at the counter won't even accept that.

I usually get the CDW with $0 excess coverage (I. E. In other words no deductible). It's a rather pricey option compared to getting the CDW with an 800 Euro or 1, 300 Euro deductible, but I just don't want to worry about it. At least this way, I can bring them back a smashed up car and it's their problem, not mine. Though, perhaps in the long run, I'm just wasting money on the CDW insurance?[/QUOTE]How many cars have you rented in Germany? I've probably rented upwards of 30 or more, not one ever game me problems with my credit card's insurance coverage on the rental car. Have you rented from Dollar or Thrifty in Germany? If so, that might be your problem.

Personally, I think your wasting your money but it is your money to waste.

atarctic: what kind of evidence are you expecting? signed confessions? video? audio tapes? pictures of pimps [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125][CodeWord125][/url] or beating women? i don't have any. i will not mention any names of girls.

there's all stages from girls working in their own for themselves, girls working for their families or a friend or husband, girls working for pimps being beaten and and not seeing the money they make.

how can i go on clubbing? trying to respect the girls, not being an asshole and in rare cases helping girls. the sex industry won't vanish tomorrow if they loose me as a customer.

hb

[quote=hessen bub; 1321705]atarctic: what kind of evidence are you expecting? signed confessions? video? audio tapes? pictures of pimps [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125][CodeWord125][/url] or beating women? i don't have any. i will not mention any names of girls.

there's all stages from girls working in their own for themselves, girls working for their families or a friend or husband, girls working for pimps being beaten and and not seeing the money they make.

how can i go on clubbing? trying to respect the girls, not being an asshole and in rare cases helping girls. the sex industry won't vanish tomorrow if they loose me as a customer.

hb[/quote]evidence? tell me you've seen the beatings occur. tell me you've seen things rather than what someone else told you. you don't accept "hearsay" from other posters, why should they accept it from you?

and yes. there are all levels of "forced" and that's what's so complicated about the issue. a girl with a husband who makes her work in an fkk is not really "forced" until he starts slapping her around. when he starts doing that, she normally has a legal recourse she can take against him rather than simply follow his coercion. a woman in a village in the ee who doesn't have the skills to make better than a living in poverty is not forced if she chooses prostitution abroad. she's no more forced than a high school graduate in the usa who signs up for the army and is sent to afghanistan.

being told your family is dead if you don't perform sexually, that's slavery but, how many of these women are actually in that situation? i submit not many are this level.

look at your last sentence above, you're stating that you're fine with the abuses you believe are occurring and it wouldn't make the practices go away if you didn't participate in clubbing. true, but really, if you believe what you are saying then you are contributing to the demand of those you believe are held in sexual bondage and you aren't doing anything to help the problem, but are rather a key component in it.

maybe there's a language barrier here though, lets say i pick 10 fkk girls out of oase, how many of those girls would be girls who hate being there and are only there because someone either beats them or has threatened their lives or the life of a family member.

the trafficking "myths" are all based around the premise that women, especially those in underdeveloped nations, are childlike simpletons who can't think for themselves and are therefore easily manipulated by men. it not only removes agency of self-determination for women but it also continues the whole myth of men as "abusers".

the trafficking scaremongers of the world state that all of us who participate in the paysex business are well aware that these girls of forced, but we don't care. we don't care because we're evil and actually enjoy abusing women and this is what they think.

i'm an american, and it's the usa state department's annual report on trafficking in humans that is thrown around worldwide as the authoritative source on trafficking. i simply cannot believe that, after being wrong about wmd's in iraq, that any nation would listen to us pontificate about something as anomalous as [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url]. you guys are smarter than this, hb.

Arctic, dude, if I remember correctly you haven't even been to a FKK club yet. As both you and HB said, there are many shades of grey and the term 'forced' might be more ambiguous as it seems. Let me put it like this, if you ask how many of the Romanian girls in Oase get to keep all of the cripsy 50 you give her; the answer is none.

I also get the feeling particular girls are "controlled" at certain clubs than others.

Most of the girls at GT. They tend to be less "controlled" by 3rd parties and independent.

At Oase, I do sense most of the girls are under of alot of pressure / stress. Obviously,

There are many factors to this.

[QUOTE=Free Dude;1321725]Arctic, dude, if I remember correctly you haven't even been to a FKK club yet. As both you and HB said, there are many shades of grey and the term 'forced' might be more ambiguous as it seems. Let me put it like this, if you ask how many of the Romanian girls in Oase get to keep all of the cripsy 50 you give her; the answer is none.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Free Dude;1321725]Arctic, dude, if I remember correctly you haven't even been to a FKK club yet. As both you and HB said, there are many shades of grey and the term 'forced' might be more ambiguous as it seems. Let me put it like this, if you ask how many of the Romanian girls in Oase get to keep all of the cripsy 50 you give her; the answer is none.[/QUOTE]Trafficking myths aren't exclusive to the FKK's. We deal with them throughout the world. There is nothing "magical" about the FKK when it comes to [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url] schemes.

I'm not trying to skewer HB. Just trying to get some "quantification" of the problem. The traffickers in the US claim that 1. 8 million CHILDREN (younger than 18) are "trafficked" for sexual purposes each year in the USA That's a number that's larger than the populations of 19 US states and territories. And it's completely preposterous.

Can we conclude at least, that the FKK's are fairly immune to the most egregious form of sexual slavery? That of child slavery? I'm assuming the German authorities at least check this aspect.

How big is the problem? Scope is everything here. If 1% of the FKK workers are "slaves" by the true definition that is one thing. If 90% of them are then that is quite another don't you think?

It's a serious subject and one that pisses me off. The busy bodies of this world who want to control us try to get support on their side by making these wild claims, and then we have those in our own midst who say "Oh yeah, that happens, but whatever, my participation in paysex isn't influencing it." And this just gives the busybodies the ammunition they need to point at us and say."Hey, look right there, that PERVO admits that he knows about the sexual slavery but he's fine with it!"

I know very well that, in India there may be some little girls who have their virginity auctioned off to the highest bidder. That upsets me, I'm a former military man and I'd gladly jump on a helo with a. 50 cal to rescue those kids and deal some serious damage to the pervo's bidding on them. But don't use those kids as a rationale for going after honest, mature women throughout the world (and in FKK's) who have chosen the profession of hooking for good faith reasons. I'm not interested in spending any time with a "slave" no matter what her age is. Let me get that straight. I certainly hope that no one else is either. If I found a "slave" working, wherever, I'd do everything in my power to help her out.

I think most of us here would. Or am I wrong and we're all just a bunch of mongers who don't give a shit what kind of impact our "hobby" has on the women we purchase time with?

[QUOTE=Free Dude;1321725]Let me put it like this, if you ask how many of the Romanian girls in Oase get to keep all of the cripsy 50 you give her; the answer is none.[/QUOTE]What does that mean?

Do I get to keep all the money I make at my job? Don't I pay some of that to income taxes? Don't I pay some of that to state sales taxes when I purchase a lawnmower? Doesn't my girlfriend get a percentage of that cut? She doesn't have to beat me for it. She just closes her thighs. Does that make me a slave?

I tip a waitress, does she keep that money? No, because she gives some of that to the cook and the busboy too. Does that make her a slave?

What about a chick that works in Walmart who has a husband who takes her paycheck? Is she a slave? Doesn't she have options to leave him if she wishes?

HB is quite correct in almost everything, but it's even a bit shallow to reduce it to that layer of 'good / forced girl' and 'bad boyfriend / pimp / manager' in order to get a bigger picture.

Where to start Arctic? Hard evidence. Yes, you can actually find a lot of that, just google around (don't know whether you speak German). As soon as there is hard evidence, police will get involved, sure. We are a country of law, after all. There's tons of stories, people getting arrested ('Zuhälter', German for pimp). I suggest you widen your google also a bit towards Hells Angels, Bandidos, Italian and Russian Mafia und such. I spare you the role some bribed police guys sometimes have in this.

Other than that, yes it's mostly just hearsay, but when you are around for a while, you will see a lot of things and start trying to make sense of it. A good exercise to begin with, is actually, what others have suggested, staying around for a while, when an FKK closes. Did that only very little, but you can read a lot of stories about that actually in German forums. Suffice it to say, the scenery will change quite a bit. There are also a lot of stories, where mongers have seen known girls getting beaten up at places like autobahn parking spaces and the like.

Oh yes, the girls will talk a lot of BS and it's actually quite simplistic to put them down as victims. More hearsay? Surprisingly, a lot of the girls at FKKs are no angels either. The 'unlucky girl' that just let her eyes fall onto the wrong guy. She exists, but mostly it's a wholly different story. Many girls you will meet in the clubs will have been involved in some sort of semi-legal / illegal stuff even before they start their careers. Drug dealing, theft, etc. Many of them will have criminal records not associated to their current job. This particularly, but by no means exclusively, applies to German girls you will find in clubs. As a result of this they will often have a deeper understanding of the various business schemes running in these venues, because they are often no different in mind. Also, particularly in larger clubs, its very common that there are hierarchies between the girls based on status in the club, experience, nationality etc. There are frequently girls that act as 'associate managers' and overlook other, mostly newer, girls as a side income in the club, or even just to upgrade their status with their boyfriends. There are also a lot of physical confrontations going on between the girls, and often for laughable matters. And so forth. Shades of grey.

And pimps. The idea of a pimp/'bad ass boyfriend' operating freely in any of the major FKKs / brothels is pretty much a 'romantic leftover' from past times. That happened in brothels in the 60s / 70s, and was also very violent back then. But times have long changed, as others have pointed out, there are various motorcycle gangs operating, big and small ones, Italian / Russian mafia, various groups from eastern Europe / Turkey / North Africa. And. They all have their territories. The pimps are often just as unfree as the girls because they are deeply involved in their organisation. More hearsay? Those gangs often have initiation / loyalty rituals or tests that make black saturdays look like childs birthdays. Not just hearsay though, has been attested in court several times.

It's an underworld environment and a lot of BS is happening there. BTW this will certainly not go on forever like this. Sooner or later there will be crackdown, because of the way all this has grown in the past few years and people coming from all over the world to us, you can bet on that. It's just a natural business cycle and I'the be surprised if we weren't very close to the top of it right now.

[QUOTE=Arctic;1321722]Look at your last sentence above, you're stating that you're fine with the abuses you believe are occurring and it wouldn't make the practices go away if you didn't participate in clubbing. True, but really, if you believe what you are saying then you ARE contributing to the demand of those you believe are held in sexual bondage and you aren't doing anything to help the problem, but are rather a key component in it.[/QUOTE]You are a key component in abuse as soon as you see the light of this planet. Yes, a significant amount of your money spent in FKKs or other brothels will find its way into channels you and others will not like, but so does your money spent on pretty much everything else. But it's not our fault. After all, it's a legal and regulated business, and if there are things going wrong the idea that a customer could do a lot about it is quite laughable. Do you investigate abuses in the production chain when you buy a car or a smartphone? If there is hard evidence, you should do something about it, sure, and actually I quite disagree with the line Batou took (although as others have pointed out, there's a high probability she was BSing). And you should also avoid places that are too shady, but that's about all you can do. You should keep your compass up, yes, and try to improve things whenever you can, but if you start questioning, whenever you do something that is fun, you will have a sad life.

And, no offense Arctic, but maybe you should try to look at it from a less ideological perspective. Yes, I know, the debate in America concerning sex and other things is deeply like that, but there's no use in it, really. There's often no simple good or bad, right or wrong. You should worry less what message the USA State Dept or other governments / organisations are trying to convey to whomsoever. Nobody cares, in Europe at least.

[QUOTE=Arctic; 1321762]What does that mean?

Doesn't my girlfriend get a percentage of that cut? She doesn't have to beat me for it. She just closes her thighs. Does that make me a slave?[/QUOTE]Your girlfriend offers you companionship, sex, etc, which are tangible benefits. Pimps by definition offer no benefits to the girls they control. Quite the contrary, they offer physical and mental harm to them.

[Quote]I tip a waitress, does she keep that money? No, because she gives some of that to the cook and the busboy too. Does that make her a slave?[/QUOTE]The cook and the busboy contribute to the overall service and dining experience to the customer, which in turn contributes to the tips she receives. Pimps contribute nothing to the service the girls provide to their customers, except the coercion part that made the girls' sex service available to begin with (involuntarily by definition).

[QUOTE]What about a chick that works in Walmart who has a husband who takes her paycheck? Is she a slave? Doesn't she have options to leave him if she wishes?[/QUOTE]The husband shares much with the wife: apartment, cars, children, sense of family, etc, and she does have the option to leave him if she wishes and that happen quite often in real life. Pimps share nothing with the girls they control and most girls do not have the option to leave their pimps even if they wish.


The statistics on sex trafficking may be exaggerated but sex trafficking does happen and it is not a figment of our imagination. Selling sex for a living voluntarily is one thing, being forced into it is entirely different. Yes, we are all "forced" to work in some sense in order to survive. But most of us have the choice of career or means of making a living and we often choose doing something that we feel morally accepatble to ourselves and our families. For example, we all know that scamming people out of their life savings or pimping are not something our conscience (or lord if you're religious) would approve of, and we would not choose either one as our career choice. Now, whether *you* personally think selling sex is morally acceptable is besides the point. What matters is the girls' value system and if it tells them that it is an immoral and shameful thing to do, and then some pimps force them to do it, I think it is not very difficult to see how wrong it is. And I think it is not hard to see the difference between the girls being forced to sell sex for a living - given that they perceive it to be a morally reprehensible thing to do - and us being forced to work to make a living the "normal" way.

For those, who are in the area: starting tonight and lasting until Monday, the town of Bad Homburg celebrates the well-known "Laternenfest" (lantern festival)

[url]http://www.bad-homburg-tourismus.de/en/events/index-showid36540.htm[/url]

Program here as pdf download (in german)

[url]http://laternenfest.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Programm-2012.pdf[/url]

For Americans: tonight Shannon McNally and Will Sexton will be on stage over there!

Might happen that you will meet some of the FKK-Oase girls over there too!

[QUOTE=Atooz; 1321869]Your girlfriend offers you companionship, sex, etc, which are tangible benefits. Pimps by definition offer no benefits to the girls they control. Quite the contrary, they offer physical and mental harm to them.

The cook and the busboy contribute to the overall service and dining experience to the customer, which in turn contributes to the tips she receives. Pimps contribute nothing to the service the girls provide to their customers, except the coercion part that made the girls' sex service available to begin with (involuntarily by definition).

The husband shares much with the wife: apartment, cars, children, sense of family, etc, and she does have the option to leave him if she wishes and that happen quite often in real life. Pimps share nothing with the girls they control and most girls do not have the option to leave their pimps even if they wish.

The statistics on sex trafficking may be exaggerated but sex trafficking does happen and it is not a figment of our imagination. Selling sex for a living voluntarily is one thing, being forced into it is entirely different. Yes, we are all "forced" to work in some sense in order to survive. But most of us have the choice of career or means of making a living and we often choose doing something that we feel morally accepatble to ourselves and our families. For example, we all know that scamming people out of their life savings or pimping are not something our conscience (or lord if you're religious) would approve of, and we would not choose either one as our career choice. Now, whether *you* personally think selling sex is morally acceptable is besides the point. What matters is the girls' value system and if it tells them that it is an immoral and shameful thing to do, and then some pimps force them to do it, I think it is not very difficult to see how wrong it is. And I think it is not hard to see the difference between the girls being forced to sell sex for a living. Given that they perceive it to be a morally reprehensible thing to do. And us being forced to work to make a living the "normal" way.[/QUOTE]I have never felt that a girl in an FKK was forced to work.

Girls that originate from Eastern Europe, especially Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc. All claim that as a waitress or as an office clerk in their own country they make about 200-300 Euro per month. This is consistent and public knowlegde.

That 300Euro is also the amount that in average most girls seem to be making in an FKK PER DAY. Assuming they have the looks and the attitude.

One newby once told me that during the first week, she didn't make less than 300 Euro per day even on the worst day of the week.

Of course these girls have a private life and people taking advantage of them personally. I have however a very hard time to believe that many of them are really forced into this.

Most girls seem to be enjoying themselves, not only for the money but also the relative relaxed life.

Just my two cents.

Atooz. Yes everything you say is correct. But only if one defines (as you do) "pimp" as a trafficker forcing someone to do something. many people interprete "pimp" much more widely i.e. receiving some benefit from a working girl

As Neutron says there are many shades of grey

As Artic and Neutron indicate, there are complex situations. What if the "pimp" is in fact an unemployed man living with a working girl, or even a working girl who has taken a fee for introducing a new girl to the profession. There are as many variations as we have imagination for. In some cases it may amount to slavery, but in many more the element of co-ercion is more likely to be general economic circumstances. This means we should perhaps also be very worried about the conditions of the millions in debt bondage and sweated labour producing our goods in India etc.

The so called respectable companies are exploiting millions of people. And we are almost powerless to stop it. We should not reserve our morality for FKK encounters only - despite what the US debate might suggest. At least in FKK we can see the worker for ourselves and can make some kind of guess and try not to encourage any form of trafficking.

And we should also be aware that we need to reserve some awareness of the possibility that some of the girls can be excellent (intentionally or otherwise) at exploiting our own weaknesses/needs (emotional or otherwise) and are able to entrap and enslave us in various ways

Neutron - for what it's worth I also have the feeling we are entering a bubble economy so far as FKKs etc are concerned and that the inevitable crash will come. The concerted action against Hells Angels in northern Germany, the closure of street prostitution in Dortmund could be the first signs of a coming (moderate) reaction against the explosion of immigrant workers and the milieu. I say moderate reaction in view of increasing moves by the State to regularise tax payments from sex workers