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RN and GoodEnough,
I don't EVER remember saying I wanted a mindless sex slave to do my every bidding the way you're portraying. I DO however like for someone to play by the rules that they state they operate by. Do American Women do this? FUCK NO! There is a saying (this will be somewhat familiar to those of you who are ardent Star Trek followers and know of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition) that goes like this: "Hear all, trust nothing". Yes, I trust NOTHING that escapes the lips of an American Woman because it's just so much noise pollution. In my experience, American Women speak half-truths AT BEST and outright LIES at their worst. I DON'T play games with anyone and anyone who has ever interacted with me knows that I am straight forward with them. What you see is what you get. Is that too much to ask of American Women or is this creature so lacking integrity that she should be approached with all the caution of being near a viper?
Before I formed my current opionion, I KNEW what I wanted, and still do (as opposed to your assessment of American Women) but now I realize that it can not be had HERE.
Read DEEPER, you two, before you get too comfortable banging that judgemental gavel...
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Sinanju:
I was not making a judgment about you, but about relationships with women, I merely wanted to make the point that most women, regardless of country, are as fucked up as most men about the kind of relationship they really want in the long term. Maybe this generalization does not reflect your experience, but it sure as hell is typical of mine.
I used to think this was true only of American, or at least, only of Western women. Having now been in SE Asia for about 10 years, I am no longer sure. I've found much of the same phenomonon here.
GE
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Good Enough,
You made an excellent point in your previous post. You said that women don't even know what they want. If this is true, how can we men possibly know what they want if they don't even know it themselves?
It's like some kind of guessing game. Do this, but don't do that. Do a little bit, but not too much. Try to be one thing, yet also be something else. No thanks, this is a losers' game.
I think Sinanju knows this well. He and I are on the same wavelength in many ways. LOVE the bit about the rules of aquisition. NEVER thought of applying them to my dealings with women. That's a stroke of genius for sure :D.
Sorry if I keep singing the same old song, but there's better women from other places. They know what they want and they don't live in a cloud of confusion like so many women here.
Rock
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10 years in SE Asia and you find the same phenomenon? Hmm... I'd be hard pressed to rebut your argument then.
What strikes me as odd is that because of the nature of the sexes (women possess the commodity that is in demand) women have the upper hand, but wield their power ineffectively (not knowing what they want and making the wrong choices over and over again) by NOT sticking to a plan to achieve (much less FIND OUT) what they want. As a result, when their power wanes, they bemoan their bad choices and point the finger to compensate for their now diminished man-attracting power. It seems that knowing what they want and their power advantage are inversely related as time marches on.
Maybe I'm terrible at putting myself in another's shoes, but I just find it difficult that someone doesn't know what they want even in GENERAL. At least I can formulate a plan from that and take the appropriate action to attain that goal.
Oh yeah, apologies for the previous rant before I took the time to read deeper myself...
RN, I find you have a unique perspective on this board because you occupied several points of view to contribute to these discussions (1] you're a woman; 2] you were a sex professional; 3] you heard the opinions of guys IN PERSON of what troubled them regarding relationships). I kind of feel (relatively) lately that you have a viewpoint of "suck it up and deal with it!", or "So what? Shit happens! It's how you deal with the shit when it rolls downhill". That may be so, but even though one trudges on in the face of adversity (out of necessity), it's hard to keep a warm smile when you wade through a sea of shit while trying to find a diamond.
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Sinanju Master,
Ok...I'm feeling like a bit of a twit. By now you will have received my reply and you're gonna be thinking "What's this girl smoking???" - I thought you were talking about my total lack of self control in the other section until I read this comment here.
For the record, can I say that I very rarely read this section (as you can imagine, I tend to feel very small and outnumbered in this sort of conversation) and when I posted that "amen" it was the first time I'd stuck my head in for ages. I didn't read any of the posts before GoodEnough's, and I still haven't, so I don't know if the prior conversation perhaps gives my comment a different context. All I noticed was GoodEnough's second paragraph - that women are just as screwed up as men are - and I thought that his comments about what women want were right on the money. Nothing more, nothing less.
However, I would really like to talk to you about this shift in attitude you say you've noticed in me (privately if you like, so that you can be free to jump up and down and yell at me if need be! :) ) My 'role' in the Morality section is, and has always been, to defend the dignity of sex workers. That I will not apologise for. But I do try very hard to be of help in the rest of the sections, because I feel I can give men an opportunity to talk to a woman anonymously about stuff they would probably never ask in the 'real world'. I you feel that I am no longer doing that, I really do want to know about it.
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RN,
Don't be so hard on yourself; your appearance in this forum is most welcome, for the very reasons stated by Sinanju Master. Furthermore, I applaud your cause of bringing a bit of dignity to workers in the "trade"; after all, if sex workers can hold their heads a little higher, then better service and less psychological "wear and tear" are the only logical results.
P.S. I might just take you up on that offer from the other forum ;) (ha, ha)
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It's cool...I've been the only woman on this site for a very long time now and because that makes me stand out, my 'bad hair days' tend to be more noticable than other posters'. I wouldn't choose to put myself in this position if I didn't think I could handle the heat. Besides, constructive criticism is always a good thing. Keeps me on my toes. :)
And you're exactly right - I firmly believe that if you treat someone like crap long enough, they eventually start to believe that's all they are. If sex workers are treated with dignity and respect ...not necessarily respect for what they do - just everyday respect for another human being...their self esteem improves, leading to better self care, better work ethics and ultimately, better services for you guys. But that's a story for the Morality section. I shall bother the American Women boys no more with my ramblings...
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WOW thought this website was a secret or something women avoid. Well RN I have a question as the "spokewoman for working girls".........
Where is the best place to get basically " more bang for the buck ". :-)
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I think we as American men are part of the problem with American women. (I can see all the gasping and shouting and hollering now.)
I think most of you agree that most men like sex. So much that we are more than willing to pay for it. Combine that with that fact that not all of us men have high standards with the women we are looking for, and pussy controls who gets some kitty on a regular basis and who doesn't.
Naturally, the hottest looking American women can make men jump through hoops for some sex. So why does the average woman, or the worse than average woman, also control the amount of sex men are getting? Because not all men have high standards (myself included).
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this recently, mostly due to the frustration of online adult ads, phone chat lines, etc.
BTW Rock Dog, nice YMCA story.
MP
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Mystic,
You have given me the opening I've been looking for to present my latest concept. It's 100% true that women are in control the the pu$$y supply.
I look at it this way. Pu$$y is like a precious natural resource. We all need it, and there's only one place to get it. Just like any other resource, there's a supply of it, and there's a demand for it. In a free market, these forces act in concert and the price (or perceived value) of any commodity follows accordingly.
Not all markets are free though. The DeBeers cartel is a good example. They control a good chunk of the diamond supply and are able to keep prices higher than they would ever be in a free market. OPEC is another good example. By keeping a limit on oil prodection, they can keep some control over the value of a barrel of oil.
We have another OPEC right here at home. It's the Organization of Pussie's Exerting Control. Women here know they are the sole keepers of that special thing that men love so much. I think, at some level, most of them know the harder they make it to get, the more valuable it becomes. Demand is always there, supply is tight (no pun intended.... well, maybe) so the perceived value of even the most ordinary vagina is sky-high.
For evidence to support my theory, I'd look at other countries where the women grant access to this resource more freely. How far are guys willing to go for some poontang in those countries? Not very far, I'd bet. Why? Because, in those countries, sex is freely available and it's guys who make decent money who are in short supply.
How to break the power of our female OPEC? Simple, go to an alternate supplier. Give them some competition. Pay 4 play, or go get your dream girl from overseas.
Why do you think that western women don't like it when guys go to massage parlors, prostitues or get "mail-order" brides? Because it's COMPETITION, and competition is what drives down the price and breaks the power of any cartel. Even the Organization of Pussie's Exerting Control!
My thought for today,
Rock
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Worf1972...How would I know??? I've never travelled and I don't pay for sex!
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Mystic Pimp,
You actually make a damn good point; if we keep eating shit sandwiches, then where's their incentive to serve up anything else?
You know, I see the whole thing as a "catch-22" situation. Think about it- if the average "Joe" were guaranteed to get some almost anytime, anywhere, from a mate at least close to his ideal woman, then he wouldn't feel the need to lower his standards so often, right? But since that's not a realistic expectation (for most of us) he then feels he has to settle for what he can get; this makes the "average" lady even MORE attractive in his eyes, and the attractive one absolutely (socially) unbearable at times. This is caused by either (A) unrealistic expectations from women, or (B) lowered self esteem on the part of the man; which of these holds true is a matter of debate, of course.
MP, I think what you're trying to say is that if we men (as a whole) stick to our guns concerning what we realistically expect from women, then maybe we'll stop having to eat all those "shit sandwiches" once the fairer sex sees that we're no longer interested. I didn't have very much success with women until I made that change for myself, so I know it's the right frame of mind.
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Some very interesting posts on this board and I can relate to what a lot of people have written. After going through a brutal divorce where I got to deal with my attorney over several years(when children are involved, the complexity regarding custody, visitation, and support can be mind-numbing and entail all sorts of complexities, not to mention lengthy negotiations), I reach a point in my life where I needed to go through a thorough self-examination. I was in a Charles-Di type of marriage where the courtship went well but the marriage was fraught with differences, arguments, and strife. So I learned a profound lesson. Should I ever marry again, which I seriously doubt I'll ever do (I'm in my 40s), I'll look for a woman with whom I have many many similarities. Once burned, twice cautious.
One choice I have made, post-divorce, is to quit dating altogether. I'm the type of guy who likes to take things slow when it comes to romance. What irks me greatly is to be queried in detail on a first or second date about the minute, nitty-gritty details of my marital breakup. It feels like being interviewed by Internal Affairs, and you hardly know each other. One divorced mother that I met seemed to be in a mad rush to remarry and took some pride in the number of guys who pursued her and in one case, a guy who proposed to her. She's a vivacious lady in many regards and very much an extrovert. She has an excellent paying job, Macy's/Nordstrom tastes, upscale aspirations and a loving family. She went into detail right away about her breakup and expected me to follow suit. So much energy was spent on talking about past people and events that I found it a romance killer. I drew a line at going into great detail about my marital breakup, even before a first kiss. She didn't like that response and used a "catch as catch can" expression to politely blow me off. So I didn't call her anymore.
The romance game has a lot to do with negotiations and I agree with those posts that argue that it's best to stick with your standards and walk away when necessary. The funny thing nowadays is how friends sometimes make a big effort to set you up with available women. I've gone to a standard reply of thanking them for their interest but tell them, as Miss Manners advised one make writer to say, "I'm afraid that I'm a confirmed bachelor". I've used that statement many times now in telling friends that I'm not interested in romance. The reality is that there are many available women in their 30s and older who are looking but can't find any suitable men who want to date them. I can only surmise that the supply of available women who are divorced/widowed/never married and are 35 or older, let's say, is far greater than the supply of unmarried men in a similar age range.
The reason I choose not to date, at this stage of my life, is that I don't want to lead women on. In the words of singer Carly Simon, I haven't got the time, the room, or the need for the pain. There are some great women out there, including American women, but I've been unlucky in love too often to be a risker in the romance business anymore. I read a post on a Toronto message board, where one provider said that some women are paid for sex through the security of the mortgage and the kids. She said she preferred "cold hard cash". Mercenary perhaps but we guys can play by our own rules these days. If I'm looking for a 30 minute pay-for-play session in the Amsterdam RLD or a multi-hour appointment with a top-tier indie escort, I know exactly where and how to find her, through past experience, resourcefulness, backchannel/public info, and a network of friends. Dedicated hobbyists (or "mongers", as some put it) get more high-quality and high-frequency sex than many many married guys out there. Friends who think I lead a sexless existence as a proclaimed "confirmed bachelor" have no idea of the high-quality sex I enjoy on a GFE basis with certain ladies overseas.
Getting smart on this hobby isn't that difficult. It's like shooting at fish in a barrel. I overheard a guy in a restaurant recently who told his dinner companion (a platonic female friend evidently) that he'd "rather be lonely and disappointed than devastated (from the breakup of a relationship)". Those words perhaps resonate with a lot of us guys who indulge in this hobby. I've met some truly great gals via the pay-for-play route and at the same time know that it's not a path to romance. It's great sex at a fixed price. Then you go your separate ways. A guy who is not dating or married has a low overhead on many counts...no expenses for wining/dining her, no gifts, no flowers, and no commitments. The price you pay? No love life and bouts of loneliness perhaps. But you can pursue and realize a sex life that can be pretty amazing. This pursuit can be addicting so I make it a point to take sabbaticals from the hobby and continuously glean insights from friends I've made in the hobbyist community, including female providers, male hobbyists, and even couples. Should I change my mind and meet a great lady that I want to pursue romantically, I intend to quit this hobby cold-turkey and ride into the sunset, not looking back.
Cheers,
Jim
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Smut, MP, et al
Without getting into game theory, the simple problem with "raising the game" is defection. Most guys (me certainly on occasion) have been known to use the little head to do the thinking at a crucial moment.
We end up defecting on ourselves. ;)
Do "American men" have their share of blame? Sure, but let us not forget the legal system, the media, the consumer society, puritanism, Hollywood, Oprah, Phil... ad nauseum. Please, this is the 21st century, it [b]must[/b] be someone´s fault! Class action lawsuit anyone?
Cheers,
Sporadic
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Not to deviate from the topic completely, but what is it with the US these days and the attitude about sexual harrassment? Before I moved from the States to live overseas (three years now) I remember the tone of pretty much most offices, except for maybe stock brokerages, is that you avoid anything to provoke a sexual harrassment issue in the office.
To wit, I would always remember to never say anything positive or negative to a female coworker out of fear that it may come off as sexual harrassment. I always felt that with so many lawsuits filed, it was so much easier to just say nothing out of fear of getting into trouble than to simply offer a genuine compliment to a fellow female coworker. Many of my male coworkers felt the same and we pretty much have never offered a nice compliment.
I think it is absolutely unconscionable that women in the US can't express their femininity and get a genuine compliment because of it. No wonder American women are all screwed up!
Now, fast forward to asia. I live in Beijing, China and sexual harrassment takes on a whole new definition. Some job ads for secretaries clearly state that the boss is looking for very specific physical measurements, age, single status, photograph, and often state outright that they he may want a little action on the side - and that this is part of the job! Many professional offices choose based on looks for the first cut, then brains and ability second. They often dont' have any brains or ability, but they get hired anyway because they are hotties. Of course there is absolutely no law against this and in fact, these jobs easily get filled because they want to advance their careers as fast as possible, and maybe even get married to the boss or taken on as his concubine which can be an extremely well paying job.
What is the difference between these women and professional sex workers?
IMHO I would say there is NO difference.