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Wow DH...I've gone from partially reasonable, to reasonably reasonable, to marriage material, in only three days?? LOL
You need to become a witch. You probably already know this - being a history major and fellow shouter-down of all things Christian - but pagans have 'marriages' called handfastings, which last for a year and a day. After the year and a day, they decide whether or not they would like to continue their marriage for another year and a day, or just call it quits. I think that's a bloody marvellous idea.
Oh and come to think of it - my first defacto relationship lasted four years, and so did my subsequent marriage. Hmmm...
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See, now, if I thought people really had "sat down and thought 'Do I want this woman by my side for the rest of my life?'" I might take it more seriously but I don't think that's really how it happens.
My "Good married friend" who IS in what a consider a happy marriage told me she decided the first time she saw hubby-to-be that he was the man she would marry. SHE kept asking HIM to get married which I guess is OK but I know for sure he would rather have waited a LOT longer.
My "engaged for six years friend" got married in the middle of a drinking binge.
Another friend decided to marry a gal, told his parents, decided to marry another gal, and hoped they wouldn't remember the first gal's name. He committed suicide when gal #2 wouldn't go along with the program.
My mother told me she married my dad "because she didn't want to be an old maid and he was the first guy who asked her." She was 19 so you would think there was still some time before she became an old maid!
My one sister got married the first time because she was 19 and pregnant and he "wanted to do the right thing." They hadn't known each other for more than a few months either.
My douche bag, ring-grabbing friend is one of two who has twice married women they didn't know very well. The second friend, probably my best male friend, told me he got married the second time (each gal he knew for a few weeks only and the first marriage only lasted six months) because "he just wanted to try something different." I am rather ashamed to say that he and I attended the same college; he got a BUSINESS degree and is a CPA (as am I although I was a history major) so you would think he would know better. I haven't met wife number two yet but he said "most people who meet her don't like her." They have a kid and have been married about two and a half years so who knows, maybe it will work out OK.
One set of grandparents got married because he got drafted into WW I and she said she wouldn't wait. They grew up together but hadn't been dating more than a couple of weeks. They had one kid and then never had sex again.
Other set of GPs was weird too. Wife one died of an ectopic pregnancy so her older sister came to help take care of my dad and aunt who were like 5 and 3. After a while she said, "well, the neighbors are starting to talk so either we get married or I leave." So my dad's stepmother is his aunt. She was flat out ugly and he was crude and abusive.
I think people get married to get out of the house, to shut people up, to improve their financial situation, to prove a point, to get back at someone, and only rarely because they rationally want the person by their side for the rest of their life. But as we know, I am a cynical Dickhead.
I did not know that about handfastings (maybe I was sick that day) but in Bolivia, a nominally Catholic country, they have trial marriages. They last a year and if the man is still satisfied with the woman then there is a second ceremony where everyone throws rocks at them and then it is permanent. Of course, the woman doesn't have the same choice. I think I mentioned this before a long time ago.
Do you want to handfast (is that better than a hand job because I am really sick of those) for six months? Oh wait a minute; I meant six days. Or was it six hours? Darn that is a long flight for six hours of sex. Or is it sex hours of sick? Anyway I am kind of drunk right now but I don't have to go back to work for three months so now would sure be a good time to at least fool around for a while ...
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You come over here, work for three months seeing as our tax season is just about to begin, shag me senseless two or three times a day (I promise I'll read up before you get here, in case I've forgotten how to do it), and then you can trot off to Argentina and 'marry' someone there for another three months. Unless we stay together for four years I won't have to ever wash your underwear - so it works for me.
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RN YGM ha ha. But do you have a footstool cuz remember I am only 5'7" and low change?
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So is cohabitation the more current and desireable model? The census says there are about 10 million opposite sex unmarried people living together, and, interestingly, that 41% of American women between 15 and 44 have lived with an unmarried different-sex partner at some point. About 3/4ths of these couples say they plan to get married at some point, and 55% do so within five years, while another 40% break up. (The majority of couples marrying today have lived together first -- 53% of women's first marriages are preceded by cohabitation). Only about 20% of these live-ins go beyond five years without either marrying or breaking up. So maybe four years really is a magic number...
I've got several friends who have gone the same impulsive (or perhaps clueless) way you describe, DH -- marriage as kind of impulse shopping. Only one of them is still married, but for him doing this was completely out of character, unlike the others, so maybe he just saw exactly who he wanted and went for it. Strange that these guys would never simply decide to shack up in these instances -- they dive directly into deep water.
I don't at all disagree that marriage is anachronistic, especially given how far courts have now extended its property issues to people who live together. The bottom line is still that people want to hook up with someone, in some fashion, marriage or not. Would folks expect the same level of anger and bitterness that rears its head here surrounding failed marriages to be there in a failed cohabitation scenario? Why or why not, especially if there still might be property or children involved?
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DH - We are all the same height laying down, honey. *grin*
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I don't know much about the laws in the US, but here the courts pretty much view married and defacto in the same way when it comes to property and/or children. But even though the consequences and responsibilities are pretty much identical - I think people still tend to see a defacto relationship as a little less 'permanent'....or dare I say, less 'final'.
I think that belief probably makes a defacto couple less likely to experience the bitterness and anger that can occur during a divorce. I guess that's because people who are married often wait until they reach absolute breaking point before thinking about divorce - whereas defactos may feel more able to walk away when things first start going bad.
It's probably the same in both cases for people with children, though. It's bloody tough bringing up kids by yourself, and tooo many men just walk away and never pay a cent to help out - every woman knows that, so they are likely to want to get in first before it happens. I would think that regardless of whether they are married or not, there will always be women who will fight for "their share", because they know they are the ones that are going to be suffering more financially after it's over.
Property, etc, may be easier for defactos though, because if they are breaking up at a point where they are still 'friends', things are more likely to be amicable. I think the biggest problem is that married people tend to do the things that DH mentioned...staying together for the kids, or for their parents, or to save themselves the "humiliation" of getting divorced. Once they get to the point where they just can't take it any more and need to leave, they are already bitter and twisted.
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RN:
Thank you for letting me see the light. I clearly remember how much my parents fought. They even wanted to get a divorce, but didn't "for the sake of the kids." Now you should see them ... off in their own corners of their house, miserable.
I'm now completely convinced of the folly of marriage, especially in America. And if that weren't enough, to hell with having any children, either! I can't tell you the number of marriages I've seen that were cause-and-effect (cause=pregnancy, effect=marriage) and wound up bitter unions.
[url=http://www.wired.com/animation/collection/nina_paley/stork/]Here's an animation[/url] that could work wonders in promoting population control, hehe.
-- L
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DH, you mentioned that you were in NYC 25 years ago. NYC used to have more blatant prostitution than it does now and there used to be the RLD between 7th and 8th avenue of 42nd ST but thanks to that tyrant former Mayor Rudoplh Guliani and his butt buddy Police Commissioner Howard Safir who "cleaned up" the city of prostitutes and Night clubs that play loud music and disturb the neighborhood peace. Thanks to his "quality of life" reforms, NYC has become a town geared towards those complaining old ladies and old men. The damage is already doen to this city and now NYC is another Disney World. A place that is geared towards kids with NO adult entertainment would drive me nuts and yes, having been to Brazil where adult entertainment is available, NYC looks like dog shit. There are a few underground sex clubs that popped up though but police are still cracking down on them because Guliani programmed to do so even after he left office.
About the marriage issue, since people do tend to get tired of each other and grow apart, perhaps open marriages where the couple consents to seeing other people might be a good solution. RN, I like the idea of the trial marriage or handfasting. This is all the more reason I disagree with Christianity or other religions that support monogamy. Religion tends to demand that we take ourselve out of our natural state of living and tries to fix our ways of living with the threat of "hell". Paganism is a more natural way of living because it is a faith based on nature and its elements. I am an atheist though but I had a college roommate that was a warlock (male witch). It is natural for a male animal to have offsprings from many different women and likewise for females so why can't humans do the same as the rest of the animal species on earth. Christianity's take on this is the concept of "family", but naturally humans or any other animal species are not programmed for family. As Lenin said, women want other guys after 4 years and vice versa for guys. Trial marriages or handfastings would be a concept that is in harmony with our natural state of being. Marriage conflicts with nature.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkseid
[i]Marriage conflicts with nature. [/i][/QUOTE]
Nature created us to survive not to be destructive to ourselves.
Take women’s “irrational hate” and revenge for example.
I think, it had positive moment until society introduced marriage and all other crap.
For millions years people lived in tribes together.
Couples were not separated from other members of the tribe by apartment walls and everybody knew their life.
Let say the woman passed her 4 years biological cycle and instinctively wanted to change her sex partner to increase overall chances for all her children to survive.
The Hate from the woman, after four yeas relation, meant just the signal not only for her boyfriend, but also for whole tribe that her interest to her former boyfriend finished and he can go on with his life.
Hate should be strong enough to scare away former boyfriend because
he continued to live in same living space with her and always existed temptation from him to restore relationship. But women’s Hate and Revenge could course not much troubles to the former boyfriend because the tribe was balanced system. Everybody in tribe understood reason of her hate and didn’t let the man put him down.
“Irrational” women’s hate had positive moment also because reduced chances of bloody conflict between old and new boyfriend because not much sense to fight for woman who anyway hate you.
This hate also was signal for other girls in the tribe to start compete for dumped man, so dumped man could easily switch to other girl without being long in depression or aggressive mood.
After former couple was sexually satisfied with new partners there were no reasons to conflict with each other.
They could be just friends and continue to care about their children.
Children didn’t have too many problems because they didn’t lose their parents,
Children still could see both of them every day because they lived in same living space. Also not only parents but the members of the tribe cared about them too.
So Hate and Revenge have only one major reason: don’t mess with my future life and with my future sex partners.
Modern societies, especially in North America, destroyed normal way of human life.
Now children are damaged in any case. They lose one of the parents in case of divorce or they all time continue to see unstoppable conflicts between parents.
Court and Law not consider women’s hate simply as intention to dump
the man. Often they take woman’s claims seriously and could destroy the life of the man as much as the woman wants.
In this case modern courts with idiot’s judies from best American universities are worst and more damaging for society than any most primitive tribe court. They simply bunch of
stupid criminals who has power.
In stead of treating the divorced man with respect like new marriage material which has big potential value for society, American society treat him like criminal and looser who don’t care about marriage and children.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RN
[i]You come over here, work for three months seeing ... , shag me senseless two or three times a day (I promise I'll read up before you get here, in case I've forgotten how to do it), and then you can trot off to Argentina and 'marry' someone there for another three months. Unless we stay together for four years I won't have to ever wash your underwear - so it works for me. [/i][/QUOTE]
RRRRRRRRRRR NNN! I'm Back!
Was down in South America ... not nearly long enough! The flying waitresses on the American carrier home were enough to want me to jump out and WALK back!
So what's up? Still beating your chest as a lone masked defender of Western femaledom?
Say. Am I invited too? Three to four times a day, eh? I'm game!
So what's the catch?
Can I afford it? ... What's that? You want what? MY IMMORTAL SOUL??? What soul? I'm a totally unprincipled Hedonist. Besides, you'll have to have a talk with Satan. I'm sure he has a prior claim!
What all this talk about underwear? Listen: with three or four times a day to keep me happy, I will have absolutely no use for underwear whatsoever, will I?
So here's my proposition. How about dusting off the old ball and chain? They DO have those Down Under don't they?
<just kiddin' ... I just couldn't resist!>
*Hugs*
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I don't know why everyone is debating this but American women are the biggest fucking cunts on the planet. I try to be open minded and not generalize but a recent experience gave me a sobering reminder that American women suck. Don't tell me I am generalizing because American women are the most arrogrant, most racist, and most bitchy women on the planet. And on top of that they are not that attractive in the first place.
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The last dude said it all. American women are definately the worst. On top of all of his adjectives I'd like to add that they want and expect to have the best of both worlds, meaning: the best of the man's world and and the woman's world.
They want to be treated like women in the old fashioned sense, but also want to get everything a man gets. I say the next woman that bitches about equality should be sent to the front lines in combat in Iraq.
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I was in Mexico for four weeks. I screwed five hookers and a tourist from the US. The five hookers cost me around $300 total. The three nights of wining, dining, and delicate emotional surgery before I got the tourist to give it up cost nearly $200 and she would not suck my dick. It is true I did fuck her maybe five times over a couple of days but I also had to hang out with her friends and then plus we had to put on some big charade for them like we weren't fucking each other.
But what got me was finally one time she offered to pay a bar tab. I said great and then she says, "Well, why don't I pay the bill and you can leave a tip?" Why the hell don't you pay the fucking bill AND leave the tip since I took you out to dinner three nights in a row and bought like nine times as many drinks as there were on that tab?? What is up with that?
And she wasn't as good looking as any of the hookers and she was scared to ride the bus.
And don't get me started about all the fat American women at the pool at my resort and all the fat ones on the planes. Tomorrow I leave for Argentina. American women just don't impress me from a fucking standpoint.
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DH,
Good hearing from you. Where have you been in Mexico so far? What would you recommend?
Am a bit puzzled by your going after the American tourist after five encounters with Mexican women. Was this some type of experiment or comparitive study?
Good luck in BA and keep us posted. Those of us who are stuck in the US of A need to live vicariously through your adventures.