General Info

[SaltyPete]

The theory is that many of these third world pilots flying for fast growing foreign airlines lack the experience of their counterparts in the WEST because they learned to fly mostly in simulators not in real planes. Thus, they do not have sufficient number of hours actual flight time and most particularly with these new Boeings.

Since most of the time a modern commercial jet will practically fly itself, this is not an issue, but on rare occasions when a problem or conflict with the software arises, especially on takeoff, as may very likely have been the case with these 2 recent Boeing crashes where quite likely an unlucky, inexperienced pilot who was not proficient enough or confident enough to know that he should have just turned off the god damn automatic pilot and flown the plane himself until the problem was over, thus avoiding the crash, which is exactly what most experienced Western pilots would of, could of easily done.

This has nothing to do with race. It is about training and the number of hours of actual flight time pilots receive before they are allowed to sit in the cockpit of a commercial jet carrying hundreds of people. Grounding the plane until this issue is settled is a good thing and will most likely save lives although it was/is highly unlikely any of these new Boeings would have crashed flying domestic US routes for the reason stated above.

Of course this is just a theory. Boeing will figure it out and in a year or two we may all be flying this plane into MNL.

Actually, the MCAS only activates with the autopilot disengaged. There are two switches on the throttle pedestal to cut out the electric trim, which is what the MCAS uses to trim the nose down.

If you are ever Jumpseat on a MAX, now you know.

[Member #4698]

Well, to be fair, the Lion Air Captain was Indian and not Indonesian. The Ethiopian Airline Captain looks Kenyan. I am not sure but google is your friend. Indian Airline pilots got a bad reputation because it was said that some pilots paper cockpit windows with newspapers to block out the sun during flight. .

The theory is that many of these third world pilots flying for fast growing foreign airlines lack the experience of their counterparts in the WEST because they learned to fly mostly in simulators not in real planes. Thus, they do not have sufficient number of hours actual flight time and most particularly with these new Boeings.

Since most of the time a modern commercial jet will practically fly itself, this is not an issue, but on rare occasions when a problem or conflict with the software arises, especially on takeoff, as may very likely have been the case with these 2 recent Boeing crashes where quite likely an unlucky, inexperienced pilot who was not proficient enough or confident enough to know that he should have just turned off the god damn automatic pilot and flown the plane himself until the problem was over, thus avoiding the crash, which is exactly what most experienced Western pilots would of, could of easily done.

This has nothing to do with race. It is about training and the number of hours of actual flight time pilots receive before they are allowed to sit in the cockpit of a commercial jet carrying hundreds of people. Grounding the plane until this issue is settled is a good thing and will most likely save lives although it was/is highly unlikely any of these new Boeings would have crashed flying domestic US routes for the reason stated above.

Of course this is just a theory. Boeing will figure it out and in a year or two we may all be flying this plane into MNL.

[WestCoast1]

Hence Trump telling Boeing he was going to cancel the 5 Billion new AirFoxxeOXX and creating a lot of tension.

Did not understand, can you background AirFox thing and explain that some?

[Bushes]

That was an issue pointed out by Bloomberg or WSJ. The previous admin moved the FAA inspectors to literally under Boeing's roof and staff. Hence Trump telling Boeing he was going to cancel the 5 Billion new AirFoxxeOXX and creating a lot of tension.

If I was the FAA,
Sorry for the detour!

[Bushes]

Well, to be fair, the Lion Air Captain was Indian and not Indonesian. The Ethiopian Airline Captain looks Kenyan. I am not sure but google is your friend. Indian Airline pilots got a bad reputation because it was said that some pilots paper cockpit windows with newspapers to block out the sun during flight. I remember a picture of a cockpit windows covered up and a captain with his bare feet up. Actually very hard to do.

It's interesting to note that only airlines from shithole countries like Indonesia and Ethiopia have managed to crash a 737 Max. Boeing marketed the 737 Max on the basis that no additional simulator time was needed for pilots when changing over from the 737-800. The only requirement was that pilots watch a 50 minute video on their iPad. This video didn't even cover the new MCAS. Most of the sales of the 737 Max have been to shithole countries with India, Mexico, Indonesia, China and Ethiopia being the largest buyers. The fact that shithole airlines didn't need to install a new simulator and converting pilots didn't need five rides with a check captain meant huge cost savings.

[SaltyPete]

It's interesting to note that only airlines from shithole countries like Indonesia and Ethiopia have managed to crash a 737 Max. Boeing marketed the 737 Max on the basis that no additional simulator time was needed for pilots when changing over from the 737-800. The only requirement was that pilots watch a 50 minute video on their iPad. This video didn't even cover the new MCAS. Most of the sales of the 737 Max have been to shithole countries with India, Mexico, Indonesia, China and Ethiopia being the largest buyers. The fact that shithole airlines didn't need to install a new simulator and converting pilots didn't need five rides with a check captain meant huge cost savings.

I read today that a MAX Sim won't even be available until the end of the year. I understand that the MCAS system was an add-on after the test pilots found the aircraft had "unusual" stall characteristics. Boeing didn't expand on the details but it was bad enough for them to make a crappy add-on system, without fully disclosing the new system to the pilots. In hiding this information, it is apparent that Boeing values profit over safety. If I was the FAA, I'd make Simulator training on both the MAX deep stall envelope and the MCAS system mandatory before allowing the planes to fly again. Boeing would develop that simulator really quickly if it cut into deliveries.

You'd probably get 6-8 pilots qual-ed in a four hour sim session.

Sorry for the detour!

[Engine Driver]

I don't know of too many planes designed for level flight in a "nose down" position, except maybe the Concorde. Heck, I think even superman usually flies "nose up". Maybe ironman too.

There was a news article that mentioned qualifying from 733 to max required one hour simulation on an iPad. I sure hope they were not using the same app I am.

It's interesting to note that only airlines from shithole countries like Indonesia and Ethiopia have managed to crash a 737 Max. Boeing marketed the 737 Max on the basis that no additional simulator time was needed for pilots when changing over from the 737-800. The only requirement was that pilots watch a 50 minute video on their iPad. This video didn't even cover the new MCAS. Most of the sales of the 737 Max have been to shithole countries with India, Mexico, Indonesia, China and Ethiopia being the largest buyers. The fact that shithole airlines didn't need to install a new simulator and converting pilots didn't need five rides with a check captain meant huge cost savings.

[Bushes]

I don't know of too many planes designed for level flight in a "nose down" position, except maybe the Concorde. Heck, I think even superman usually flies "nose up". Maybe ironman too.

There was a news article that mentioned qualifying from 733 to max required one hour simulation on an iPad. I sure hope they were not using the same app I am.

When they say the feature does a "nose down" that's relative to the current angle of attack. So if the aircraft is on it's way to stalling, it pushes forward to reduce the rate of climb. Pilots can override it, two of them (so far) just forget how.

[AussieGaigin]

You beat me too it! The grandmas working the flights today are the very same Party Stews from the 70's and 80's!

Used to do a bit of work with AA aircrew in Sydney a few years ago. Some looked like they had been recruited from a retirement home.

Scary part was some of them would hit me for dates. Guess the passengers weren't interested.

[BrainDrain]

They talked about a "nose down" override of pilot input on the new 737 MAX. That is bad. At take off, some planes are required to climb rapidly for environmental, geological (UA crashed into the SF hill side), traffic control reasons and others. To have a "nose down" is bad as I would assume a stall warning would go off first..

When they say the feature does a "nose down" that's relative to the current angle of attack. So if the aircraft is on it's way to stalling, it pushes forward to reduce the rate of climb. Pilots can override it, two of them (so far) just forget how.

Meanwhile on the subject of flight attendants. For me they are always chatty, tell me lots, are polite, might add me on wechat but I can never pin them down.

Best I had was a check-in agent.

Oh well, one day.

BD.

[Niteluvr]

Don't know about you Westie, but I'd fuck 'em.

I'm very partial to them and I think they're overall the hottest flight attendants I've ever seen. Yes, many have had their noses / eyes done, but that's so common in Korea with most ladies. Had a lady friend years ago who used to work for KAL. Competition was so fierce to get a job there was a "casting couch" of sorts that was used as a determining factor. She banged a few frequent fliers over the years as they would lavish gifts on her. She made a lot of money but KAL tends to force them out once they get old (over 30).

[Bushes]

I was referring to 737. But Bloomberg had this. Out of 322 737 MAX delivered:

31 Southwest.

24 American.

14 United.

For 69 roughly in the US.

They talked about a "nose down" override of pilot input on the new 737 MAX. That is bad. At take off, some planes are required to climb rapidly for environmental, geological (UA crashed into the SF hill side), traffic control reasons and others. To have a "nose down" is bad as I would assume a stall warning would go off first.

I hate the tiny Brazilian models and puddle jumpers.

To say that US domestic is full of these planes is a bit of a stretch. In the two years the 737 MAX has been in production, 350 have been delivered worldwide. To inject some proportion, the Big 3 US airlines { Delta, American and United } all have total fleets well in excess of 1000. Southwest has a fleet of approximately twice the number of total deliveries, all of which are Boeing 737 family. This is not a long haul aircraft, unless you consider US transcontinental, California-Hawaii or the western fringe of Europe to the northeast US as longhaul.

[SaltyPete]

I think a lot of them are still on the job. LOL.

You beat me too it! The grandmas working the flights today are the very same Party Stews from the 70's and 80's!

[SaltyPete]

The 737 family has been a domestic mainstay in the US for decades, facing competition from the A-319/20 for a decade. They are similar mid-distance aircraft in the US (both domestic and internationally to central America, the Caribbean). Southwest has their entire fleet of 737's (over 700).

True. But the only model affected by the grounding is the latest MAX model. If I recall, SWA has 34, American has 24 and United has just a handful. In any case, they comprise just a small percentage of the fleet. But with Spring Break in full swing, the grounding comes at an inopportune time.

If the Ethiopian loss was caused by the same malfunction as the Lion Air, then the pilots and / or company (for failing to train their pilots) are at fault as well as Boeing, IMHO. There have been established procedures for stopping the plane from automatically pitching down, required to be recalled from memory without referencing any manual, that have been in effect since I flew the 737 in the 90's. Although the cause may be different in the latest models, the procedure remains the same.

[Shining Wit]

Any airplane with two aisles is wide-bodied. Cathay's fleet of A330, A350 and 777 is all wide-bodied. They opted for the A350 instead of the 787.

Whoops! Old age is causing confusion. Mea culpa.