General Info

[ImAGuy]

Maybe this is already known here, but some dude who runs a popular blog put Philippines on blast a few months ago. He labelled it the easiest place on Earth to get laid, and even linked one of the dating sites. A lot of guys were calling him out on ruining the Phils.

I'll be there this month. Hoping the same thing that happened in China doesn't happen there.

[Wicked Roger]

Skogis' point about the lack of sufficient local expertise to operate an airline to international standards is true, and not only for air transport, but for several areas of the service sectors.

The simple fact is that there are no institutional mechanisms here that would enable the service economy to achieve international standards nor, evidently, is there any particular desire to do so.

This is a country in which mediocrity is the norm, hyperbole the rule, and fantasy a permanent state of mind.

GE.

This today from the Philstar make interesting reading in light of the FRs recently about the airport. Nothing will surprise the seasoned traveler among us. The fact that it has taken a few weeks for the report to be mentioned in the press is also alarming IMHO. It basically slams the entire airport and management, the lack of investment etc. Carries see NAIA as high risk is always comforting to the passenger. If the subject was not so serious it would be funny.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/20...h-risk-airport

As GE pointed out there were plans for a new airport plus some politicians have pushed Clark (but that need huge investment in a rail service to Manila). But as he also noted, there is limited will to o anything unless people get there share of the pie first putting passengers etc well down the list of beneficiaries.

Read the last sentence, IATA (a least an authority on the subject) agrees that a new airport within a 50 kms radius of Manila is needed but pigs will fly first am sure.

[Simmer]

It is one of the worst run airlines. If they did true competition, they could not survive for a single day. I wonder how they could run an airport.

Maybe, if some of you fine gents have flown Phil airline long haul to Paris or London, you can correct me. But a B777 or an A330 is the same flying between BKK MNL as MNL CDG / LHR. Don't make me want to book their service for anlonger flight than 3 hrs. The aircraft itself beeing modern and all that is ok but they by far don't have the servicelevel in Biz class we can get used to in the western world (and how many westerns like the chicken adobo?)...

I have done LAX- (GUM) -MNL / MNL-LAX on PR. Those were looong flights, especially with the refueling in GUM on the way out (apparently they rarely do this any more as they use B777's more than B747's now. Better range). Food was okay, and plenty of it, service was okay, but broken IFE, broken seats, bassinets on the floor because of no attachment points.

But they have no direct competition for many long haul routes. PR are the only airline flying direct to MNL from LAX; United and Delta from the US converge on Narita and then diverge to various points in Asia, so a change of plane is required, which is a bit of a PITA. PR don't seem to interline with much else, at least ticketing anyway, so if you want a through ticket to, say, Davao from west coast US, you can either have PR or one of the Chinese airlines (I forget which), and that's your lot. So, many Filipinos prefer to take PR and I suppose many have some sort of pride in "their" airline. Crazy but that's the way it is.

[Member #4387]

Skogis' point about the lack of sufficient local expertise to operate an airline to international standards is true, and not only for air transport, but for several areas of the service sectors. I've stayed in many, though not all, of the five star hotels in Makati, for example and noted that all of the GMs I've met are Western. Even in the call center business, the larger, more successful companies are Western-owned and run. I attribute this not to a lack of talent, but to the deplorably low standards enforced by training institutions here. The simple fact is that there are no institutional mechanisms here that would enable the service economy to achieve international standards nor, evidently, is there any particular desire to do so.

To illustrate, I refer to a discussion I had recently with a friend who for years has owned and operated one of the best Western restaurants in Davao. He recounted his experience in interviewing a young woman who had recently graduated from one of the city's more expensive culinary academies. She introduced herself as "Chef Julie" (I've made up the name) who firmly believed.
--because she had been told so by her school--that having taken a two-year or perhaps even four-year course, she was actually a chef. My friend said her skills were at best rudimentary. Culinary academies, by the way are churning out ersatz "Chefs" by the thousands here, none of whom, I am quite sure, would be capable of holding more than an entry level job in a real restaurant kitchen.

This is a country in which mediocrity is the norm, hyperbole the rule, and fantasy a permanent state of mind.

GE.

You speak out my point as in general quite beautifully. I don't carry your native english tounge so I can not indulge myself with those fine words you are using. I understand them put in context though (my mom is american but her tounge today is clear native norwegian). They live by much a fantasy in phils. Hell, I know a while ago, as we have lack of nurses in Norway, a company started to provide hospitals with nurses. It proved though that they did not have a clue what plaster was, even less did they know how to take a blood sample (finding a nutiorous vaine).

Everything was questioned and they were send back (a few of them propably managed to get themself some norwegian wood so they could stay but it was mainly a disaster). Now it is only 2 institutions, Hi so ones, providing Norway with nirses from Phils as they have a norwegian logistic officer placed at the unis so they can view the quality of the educations. They can come easily with no hazzles from the norwegian embassy as they are needed.

I know a girl from San Fernando, a beauty, she just finished 3 years of culinaries and call herself a "baker" as in can decorate. I have viewed some of her work and my mom (I would not say me) can do a lot better than her. She would not before hell freezes get a job as a baker in Norway but maybe in phils I don't know. My mom is by the way only a math and chemical teacher at a UNI in Oslo, Norway.

[WestCoast1]

I attribute this not to a lack of talent, but to the deplorably low standards enforced by training institutions here. The simple fact is that there are no institutional mechanisms here that would enable the service economy to achieve international standards nor, evidently, is there any particular desire to do so.

SNIP

This is a country in which mediocrity is the norm, hyperbole the rule, and fantasy a permanent state of mind.

GE.

To piggyback on that:

Recently used Agoda to book a room at a hotel in the province. The hotel is also a convention center (its not a small place). Booked for 3 nights using agoda as the hotel has no website. Agoda shows wifi in the rooms. Could not get a wifi signal in the room, so I asked for a room with better wifi connection. "But sir we don't have wifi in any of our rooms. Lobby only". Great. Why does Agoda show you have wifi in both the room and public areas? "Sir it does not. Agoda shows we have wifi in public area only". I grabbed my laptop and got on Agoda and showed her the "wifi in all rooms" thing. "So sorry po".

Can I speak to the manager? "What manager sir?" The one who runs the place? "Oh sorry sir. No. He is not here now. You cannot speak to him". Ah, he will be back later today, right? Can you send him to my room to chat me? "Ah sir no. We don't know when he comes back". Tomorrow then? "Ah sir no. We never know when he comes here. Just you can talk to him if you see him here". Great. Send an email to Agoda asking if I can depart my reservation with these clowns and find a new hotel, without financial penalty for the remaining nights.

The next day my girl and I get up and decide to hit the mall. We depart at 9 am. I stop by the front desk and ask for my room to be made up, explaining that we were going shopping for a while. The receptionist grabs a walkie-talkie and says to make up room 203. Somebody responds "OK". We hit the mall and shop, and have a snack. The girl goes home. I get back to the hotel around noon to find the room has not been cleaned. I decide to go to a market and get some fruits, but first I stop back at the front desk and ask them to make up my room, reminding them that I requested it 3 hours prior. The girl walkie-talkies the same command. Reply on the walkie: "OK".

I go off and shop, then stop back in the aircon mall for some tea. Get back to the hotel at 3 pm and find the room still not made up. Head back to the front desk, to find the head maid talking to the receptionist. I ask once again to have the room cleaned, reminding the girl that this is the third time I've asked for the room to be cleaned. The head-maid gal intervenes with: "No". What? "No sir. We clean the rooms on a schedule. 203 will not be cleaned until later today". Really! I noted to the maid lady that there were only about 4 rooms being occupied by customers, and many unoccupied rooms were in the throws of being cleaned during the day. Did the occupied rooms not get priority for cleaning when the occupants were out? "No sir. We clean the rooms in an order. We will get to yours later". Amazing!

I turned to the receptionist and asked if she was aware of this? "Yes sir". So when I told you to make up the room at 9 am, you knew it would not get done till late afternoon? "Yes sir". Why did you call on the walkie-talkie? Why did you not tell me that they would not clean the room till later? And why did you repeat this behavior at noon? "I don't know sir. That is what we do".

I love this place!

To be fair, 3 minutes later there was a knock at my door, the cleaning crew had obviously been summoned.

There is a vast difference between the cultural expectations, and the local expectation is so low that I don't know if the western expectation can be met. A hotel manager in a different province said it to me once, out loud, in english. One day I had called the front desk to ask for an extra pillow to be brought to my room, 2 pm. About 4 pm (no pillow rec'd) I stopped at the front desk and asked again, as I was walking out the front door. At 7 pm I went to the front desk again to ask. At 9 pm (still no pillow) I went back to the front desk, got a bit rough, and insisted the pillow be delivered (and shortly after it was delivered). The following day at checkout, I mentioned this to the manager. Her response: "Foreigner want everything to happen for them right now. Its not the filipino way, sir". The fact that this is cultural, and that pinoy rarely complain about any bad service, means expectations will not change for a long time.

[GoodEnough]

Skogis' point about the lack of sufficient local expertise to operate an airline to international standards is true, and not only for air transport, but for several areas of the service sectors. I've stayed in many, though not all, of the five star hotels in Makati, for example and noted that all of the GMs I've met are Western. Even in the call center business, the larger, more successful companies are Western-owned and run. I attribute this not to a lack of talent, but to the deplorably low standards enforced by training institutions here. The simple fact is that there are no institutional mechanisms here that would enable the service economy to achieve international standards nor, evidently, is there any particular desire to do so.

To illustrate, I refer to a discussion I had recently with a friend who for years has owned and operated one of the best Western restaurants in Davao. He recounted his experience in interviewing a young woman who had recently graduated from one of the city's more expensive culinary academies. She introduced herself as "Chef Julie" (I've made up the name) who firmly believed.
--because she had been told so by her school--that having taken a two-year or perhaps even four-year course, she was actually a chef. My friend said her skills were at best rudimentary. Culinary academies, by the way are churning out ersatz "Chefs" by the thousands here, none of whom, I am quite sure, would be capable of holding more than an entry level job in a real restaurant kitchen.

This is a country in which mediocrity is the norm, hyperbole the rule, and fantasy a permanent state of mind.

GE.

[Member #4387]

Doesn't SM already own Philippine Airlines? It is one of the worst run airlines. If they did true competition, they could not survive for a single day. I wonder how they could run an airport.

My best bet is, and I agree that phil airlines are shitty company, they could become major player in Asia if they changed out all their (atleast many of them) top people with people actually are skilled in running an airline. The top CEO in ie Emirates is British, he got the job bcs arabs don't know squat about operating in an internationally aviation environment.

My bet would be also head people in Ethiad, Qatar and Gulf Air are from developed countries. Head in Cathay and other major players around the globe are skilled in aviation. I even know Air China, China Southern, Hainan etc have western people in the top managment(maybe not the CEO level but to acually run their airlines). To me, travelling sometimes biz class by phil airlines to BKK, it seems they don't give a shit. Maybe, if some of you fine gents have flown Phil airline long haul to Paris or London, you can correct me. But a B777 or an A330 is the same flying between BKK MNL as MNL CDG / LHR. Don't make me want to book their service for anlonger flight than 3 hrs. The aircraft itself beeing modern and all that is ok but they by far don't have the servicelevel in Biz class we can get used to in the western world (and how many westerns like the chicken adobo?)...

[Ikksman]

Doesn't SM already own Philippine Airlines? It is one of the worst run airlines. If they did true competition, they could not survive for a single day. I wonder how they could run an airport.

Nope! From memory they bought a 49% holding in 2012, but recently sold it all. Not sure of the reasons (but could hazard a few guesses!).

[Mbsl65]

Doesn't SM already own Philippine Airlines? It is one of the worst run airlines. If they did true competition, they could not survive for a single day. I wonder how they could run an airport.

I would agree with you Skogis, except that about 2 years ago, or, maybe slightly more, San Mig approached the government with a complete design for a new airport in a new location. At it's own expense it had already done the preliminary surveys and most of the design work. The company was prepared to construct the facility at its own expense and then to operate it. The proposal never even got a serious hearing. Why? Because of the endless greed of the politicians, coupled with their total incompetence and utter lack of concern for the country's development. Amazing that Thailand managed to construct what is now rated as one of the world's best airports, a subway and monorail system and a system of beautiful elevated highways, and all within a period of about 15 years.

GE.

[GoodEnough]

I would agree with you Skogis, except that about 2 years ago, or, maybe slightly more, San Mig approached the government with a complete design for a new airport in a new location. At it's own expense it had already done the preliminary surveys and most of the design work. The company was prepared to construct the facility at its own expense and then to operate it. The proposal never even got a serious hearing. Why? Because of the endless greed of the politicians, coupled with their total incompetence and utter lack of concern for the country's development. Amazing that Thailand managed to construct what is now rated as one of the world's best airports, a subway and monorail system and a system of beautiful elevated highways, and all within a period of about 15 years.

GE.

[Member #4387]

I'd say you got lucky. However, your experience doesn't have much to do with the airport facilities which are subpar by a wide margin.

In contravention of your experience, today it took me a total of about 5 hours to travel from Davao to Manila, a distance of less than 1,000 km. This was not the fault of Cebu Pacifc which boarded the flight on time, and then we had to wait 30-40 minutes beyond scheduled departure time for clearance to be granted by Manila. Arriving over Manila, we had to circle for 40 minutes or so until space opened up on the single runway. Fortunately, I had reserved a hotel car which was waiting for me as I stepped out of the terminal. Had that not been the case, I would have been forced to join the queue of maybe 200 meters for a taxi, and by the way there were no taxis in evidence.

I've decided that, in the brilliant panoply of lights that are SE Asia, the Philippines is the burned out bulb.

GE.

And here you make a strong point. To go into a more detailed explenation why you have to circle / holding position as in not having landing clearance / not having take off clearance is due to aged tech systems by Naia. Their radars and ground handling sucks big time and only at Naia you have to wait for take off due to a landing one 3 min away. By then in modern airports atleast 2 simular sized aircrafts would be able to have taken off. At Naia you are stucked. Ofcourse sometimes you will experience holding positions arriving modern huge airports as well but not anything like the Naia one. Logistics and layouts here are old. I am sure they have a doppler radar somewhere, hehe. And the crossing runway for mostly props and light airbus takeoffs isn't making it easier in the airports dynamics.

I see the problem moving and construct a new airport, it is not like boiling hot dogs, as they need probably to move it to another location. I guess just people in charge here are more worried filling their own, and the familes / friends, pockets with money so development have to rest until a real change in gouverning can happen.

[GoodEnough]

I have no complaints. I arrived at t3 Saturday evening and got through immigration and customs with only a two minute wait. Not counting walking time. 300 p got me to Tune with zero negotiating. I guess I have low expectations but I have never entered the US as fast or easy but I have only traveled out of the country 50 times or so.

I'd say you got lucky. However, your experience doesn't have much to do with the airport facilities which are subpar by a wide margin.

In contravention of your experience, today it took me a total of about 5 hours to travel from Davao to Manila, a distance of less than 1,000 km. This was not the fault of Cebu Pacifc which boarded the flight on time, and then we had to wait 30-40 minutes beyond scheduled departure time for clearance to be granted by Manila. Arriving over Manila, we had to circle for 40 minutes or so until space opened up on the single runway. Fortunately, I had reserved a hotel car which was waiting for me as I stepped out of the terminal. Had that not been the case, I would have been forced to join the queue of maybe 200 meters for a taxi, and by the way there were no taxis in evidence.

I've decided that, in the brilliant panoply of lights that are SE Asia, the Philippines is the burned out bulb.

GE.

[Naughty]

I have no complaints. I arrived at t3 Saturday evening and got through immigration and customs with only a two minute wait. Not counting walking time. 300 p got me to Tune with zero negotiating. I guess I have low expectations but I have never entered the US as fast or easy but I have only traveled out of the country 50 times or so.

[GoodEnough]

Is "best" compared with NAIA 1, 2 and 4 maybe but is definitely nowhere near international standards as the country aspires to be. Long way to go. The AC (aircon) at times never works, the people walkalators are always broken but I still use it to 'overtake' the slow movers and the selection of coffee shops is dreadful. But that said, I always use T3 but then I also travel a lot and make my assessments based on that also.

There is a shuttle but it is IMHO like a rugby scrum at times. The last time I took it (it was raining, no taxis, no choice) my bag was on top of my head while it felt like being in a overcrowded sardine can. Never again if it can be avoided.

The entire airport management needs to be replaced by people with experience and who care for passengers and in the Philippines that will be a very long time before such positive change occurs.

The simple truth is that there's nothing (short of demolition) that could transform NAIA into an airport that meets international standards. To do so would require the installation of one or two parallel runways, for which there's neither space nor money. Simultaneously, it would require the acquisition of new ground equipment, which was "supposed" to have been accomplished a decade ago until the funds allocated mysteriously disappeared. The other simple truth is that the politicians, motivated by a level of avarice that's awesome to behold, simply don't give a damn. So, this poor place will continue to slip ever further behind its more visionary ASEAN competitors many of which are investing billions of dollars in improving their air and sea transport systems.

The one faint hope for this place is that some national politicians will eventually listen to the offers from private companies--like San Miguel--to build new airports and / or subways and / or ports and to operate them as well. As such offers have already been, made and resoundingly rejected by the rapacious ignoramuses who run the country, such progress is unlikely.

GE.

[Wicked Roger]

much i was willing to pay and i told him 645piso just for fun. It was ok. I just informed him i did have a waiting
WG; i agree highly that NAIA airport as hole does not even deserve to be measured along with top notch intl ones like(HKG, PEK, SIN, BKK, PDG, etc). From reasons unkown to me Naia reminds me allways about the crazy and shitty Simon Bolivar intl Airport of Caracas, VE.

I have no idea but my speculation would be that the administration of NAIA knows very little about how to run an airport and probably are possitioned there as a gesture from beeing related or close friends to the rulers of Phils. Ie the cousin or whatever he is of the president beeing suddenly the CEO of Clark airport. Only in phils

Reminds me of some African airports (Djibouti springs to mind) plus the odd Soviet area terminals as well.

As for the speculation I think IMHO you are correct. Is correct and others on the forum have said similar about the management of the airport. The Clark thing is to do with another cousin or whatever being appointed to the board with no airline / airport / aviation experience. Nothing new in this country.