General Info

[Pute Nut]

In the 50’s and early 60's, before he came to power, the country was relatively wealthy, measured in terms of GDP, and in comparison with other Asian countries, ahead of Japan and South Korea and well ahead of Thailand and Indonesia.

Japan had almost 50% higher GDP than Phils, already in 1950.

[Fredje1961]

Unfortunately, the church's influence on the behavior of its congregants extends mainly to the poor and uneducated. Middle class, better education Filipinos have the sense to ignore the church's dicta on this subject and hence limit family size.

GE

My initial endorsment of Skip Kosts' posting lacked maybe a bit of nuance, I think it's indeed rather the local Catholic Church (as being an organisation created by people) rather than the Christian beliefs (as a religion) that are among the causes of poverty.

[Gangles]

Exactly my point, endemic corruption created widespread poverty.

But Marcos did maintain political stability.

[FreebieFan]

Well whilst we may not agree or may agree to disagree over the myriad reasons for the enduring poverty (and the family planning is at the top of my list as to reasons for continuation of poverty), the low income levels, the poor housing and lack of puruable income earning opportunities do allow us to play our games. On a rare non mongering night recently I sat in an outdoors mall and had 6 san mig light for the princely sum of US2. 50.

My friends in other countries can't believe a beer this good could be sold for so little. Same with pussy. Same with all things.

Because one things for sure, if the price of playing in Manila was the same as it is in Seoul or Tokyo none of us would be as committed as we to the place.

We would all have to go further south to Indonesia. Which has some great " playgrounds"

[Cunning Stunt]

Do not forget the ongoing and insidious effects of that scary bogeyman of recent Philippine history, otherwise known as Ferdinand Marcos. In the 50’s and early 60's, before he came to power, the country was relatively wealthy, measured in terms of GDP, and in comparison with other Asian countries, ahead of Japan and South Korea and well ahead of Thailand and Indonesia. And then along came Marcos with his inimitable brand of robber baron leadership, systematically stripping the country of much of its wealth and assets and impoverishing the masses, eschewing traditional Filipino democratic systems of politics and installing himself as the all powerful ‘apo’ or godfather to his people. I don’t think that the place has ever really recovered, especially as the political leadership since his overthrow has either been weak and insipid or, taking up the baton from Marcos, corrupt and avaricious, maintaining power through systems of patronage and cronyism. This has stymied foreign investment so the national growth figures has lagged behind its neighbours and in all likelihood will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

And yet, despite his legacy of wrongdoing and the proof of his multi-billion dollar theft, Marcos is still revered to this day by many Filipino’s, particularly in North Luzon where he in viewed as a kind of national hero. I well remember visiting his home town of Sarrat near Laog, in the early 90’s, His birthplace there was (and probably still is) maintained as a shrine to his memory. Gruesomely his dead mother was then still on open display in the house. Her corpse had been badly preserved and stunk to high heaven! Apparently, she had stipulated before her death, that her remains were not to be interred until her son’s body was allowed to be repatriated to his homeland.

[ShadowAxis]

Well, I look at it this way. Any place settled by the Spanish seems to be a shithole. I think the whole planet is more or less of a study in racial profiling. Certainly there are exceptions to the rule. But the bell curve prevails.

Here in Asia for example, I map it out like this. (in terms of values, decision making capacity, general wants, desires, attitudes and economy)

Japanese = Germans
Chinese = Americans
Koreans = Dutch
Thai = French
Filipinos = Mexicans / Spaniards
Singaporeans = Swiss

Granted, there are plenty of shitholes that are packed with white people. Red states for example, or much of eastern Europe. There are exceptionally nice places packed with Spaniards such as Santiago Chile. But in general. To assert that race, ethnic background (culture, ascendant values), and religion have nothing to do with poverty is putting a desire to be politically correct above any minimal common sense one may possess.

I agree that education is key. Here in the Philippines any lost cab driver with no change can speak better English than most Japanese executives. But in spite of relatively good education (and a system that values it. Just read the back of a p500 note); and more Jesus then you can shake a stick at. They still fuck like bunnies and make, well, bunny-like decisions.

On the other hand. Thank Jesus that there is a place a bunch of old, white, out of shape guys can go fuck the girls we use to jack off to in the pages of Penthouse and Hustler magazine! That, and Viagra is proof there is a god, and that he is a middle aged white man.

[GoodEnough]

I appreciate Gangles' post, though I'm not sure that the three criteria cited are the sole causes to the poverty which is endemic here. Certainly this country meets each of these criteria. There are however, at least in my opinion, other causes as well and, while there's no direct correlation between the church and sustained poverty, the catholic church here does contribute indirectly to the maintenance of inter-generational poverty.

There are two reasons for this assertion. First, the church is intimately tied to the political structure here in a relationship that would be unthinkable in most Western countries. It influences directly, not only not only those who frequent the churches, but is also inextricably linked with the powerful politicians. It's an unhealthy relationship.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, through its adamant refusal to allow the teaching of family planning in any public education facility it contributes directly to the unchecked population explosion here which is one of the major causes the poverty. Runaway population growth coupled with an egregiously poor education system and an economy that simply does not produce enough good, stable jobs is a sure recipe for economic stagnation, and the church plays a big role in this.

Unfortunately, the church's influence on the behavior of its congregants extends mainly to the poor and uneducated. Middle class, better education Filipinos have the sense to ignore the church's dicta on this subject and hence limit family size.

GE

[Gangles]

Skip Kost links poverty to Christianity in an earlier post.

This is a dangerous assertion, and I need to make it clear that there is no linkage between christianity and poverty.

There are three primary drivers of poverty in any nation state.

The first is endemic corruption. In a corrupt state, decisions on the use of the nation's resources are not based on benefit, but on the option which gives the greatest return to the decision maker. Hence national resources are misused.

The second is political instability. Investors will not invest in a country where the political system createsm a high level of uncerainty.

The third is an ineffective land titling system. This means that ownership of land is not clear and guaranteed, hence banks will not lend money which is secured by land, hence land cannot be leveraged to create wealth.

If one of these three exist in a nation state, then the people are consigned to a state of poverty. Forget religion, forget farm subsidies. These are not drivers of poverty.

[Elmerfud]

He built his sermon around some biblical passage that says it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to pass into Heaven. Clearly the audience was full of rich people, so the priest was telling them that the passage didn't literally mean that rich people couldn't get into Heaven. What he told them instead was that he was sure it meant that it matters what rich people do with their money on earth. That is, as long as they treat other people nicely, surely they too can get into Heaven.

My point is that it's not an accident that the one country in the Pacific rim that continues to fall behind all the others economically is the one that considers itself a Christian nation.

He was what we can call the new generation of priest as he did not implicitly said that you can buy your way to heaven as to donate or put the church on our will as it will buy your way to heaven.

[Fredje1961]

Where do you suppose they learned that?

My point is that it's not an accident that the one country in the Pacific rim that continues to fall behind all the others economically is the one that considers itself a Christian nation.

I fully agree.

[Soapy Smith]

"God will take care of us" is what they say.Fredje

Where do you suppose they learned that?

One of my most eye-opening experiences in the Phils was when I was invited to the home of a well to do older man, very politically connected, for a rosary celebrating his 78th birthday. This was in one of the gated communities in San Juan where the wealthy families wall themselves off from the masses. I thought I'd been invited to dinner, only to find the house and attached garden packed with people and a priest carrying on in front of them. The priest was fairly young and going on in English, so I pretty quickly figured out what the occasion was. He built his sermon around some biblical passage that says it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to pass into Heaven. Clearly the audience was full of rich people, so the priest was telling them that the passage didn't literally mean that rich people couldn't get into Heaven. What he told them instead was that he was sure it meant that it matters what rich people do with their money on earth. That is, as long as they treat other people nicely, surely they too can get into Heaven. I can sometimes be a boor, so I had to fight down my impulse to laugh aloud. It's just that it struck me as very disingenuous for a Catholic priest to try to curry favor with the rich and powerful by giving them twisted biblical interpretation just to please them. But since I'm pretty much a sinner myself, I didn't mind digging into the great spread of food they served after the rosary.

My point is that it's not an accident that the one country in the Pacific rim that continues to fall behind all the others economically is the one that considers itself a Christian nation.

[Cunning Stunt]

Considering its the LA cafe, HRM probably refers to 'ho resource management' given the hundreds of young flipas willing to put out for cash that are there at any hour of day or night.

Or Helper for Randy Mongers ... lol::).

Did you get a little chuckle over the bit about Honesty and Integrity. I did. More that once I have had a waitress bring me back change for P500 when I gave P1000 and then try to brazen it out. I know this has happened to other guys as well.

Funny how the waitresses are rapidly corrupted after working there for a little while. I think it is more by the girls than by the male customers, although I know its most guys ambition to bed one of the cuter ones. Twice I have managed it but only after they have finished their contract (6 months, I think) and come over to the other side of the bar, as it were. Many obviously quickly realize that the grass is greener and the picking much healthier as a 'working' girl than as an abysmally poorly paid, overworked waitress.

Never met anyone who has managed to trap one whilst in post, although no doubt this often happens. Would be nice as their kit is cute and I have been recently outed as a uniform fetishist :D.

[Dashing Don]

Considering its the LA cafe, HRM probably refers to 'ho resource management' given the hundreds of young flipas willing to put out for cash that are there at any hour of day or night.

[Finrod]

But each time she talks about her ideas with local people, they treat her as "ambitious" and that is seen as very negative. According to local customs & values, Philippinos should not be ambitious, should not try to improve the quality of their lives, and should not try to set a goal and work hard to reach it. I think this is also a part of the reasons why they remain in poverty. "God will take care of us" is what they say.

Fredje

The locals use crabs as a metaphor to describe this mindset: when one crab tries to get out of the pot, the others pull it back in. Which is often how it is in real life: when a filipino (or filipina) tries to do better, that person gets deluged with negativity, and then if they're actually successful, they get deluged with requests for money. Those are the kind of people who, if they get out of the country, will not want to return.

[Fredje1961]

So in a global economy that turns on brain power rather than muscle power, many Filipinos are destined to live in poverty for ever. At the same time, I've also interacted with some shrewd young Filipinos -- college educated, of course -- who have good heads for business. The problem, I think, is that there's too few of the latter, and their innovative capabilities can't do enough for the country as a whole, since all the systems are bogged down in entrenched expectations for bribery and sustaining the wealth and positions of the 40 (or 50 or 60) ruling families.

How's that for optimism? Just my $.03.

Skip

Hi SK,

Working with people in Phils, I basically agree with your opinion, but I would like to add some food for thought:

I have a "chat friend" in Samar (Phils) who has started a sari-sari store, and at least once a week she comes up with a new idea for business (buy a trike and offer taxi services, buy table & chairs and rent party equipment, buy a fridge and sell meat and fish.).

Basically she has good ideas very often, but not the money she needs to realize them. I'm teaching her financial management, how to save money, how to use money for investments, make the distinction between investment expenses and operational expenses etc and basically she's smart enough to understand things and she learns fast.

But each time she talks about her ideas with local people, they treat her as "ambitious" and that is seen as very negative. According to local customs & values, Philippinos should not be ambitious, should not try to improve the quality of their lives, and should not try to set a goal and work hard to reach it. I think this is also a part of the reasons why they remain in poverty. "God will take care of us" is what they say.

Fredje