Thai Women - Opinions & Advice

[Rubber Nursey]

Interesting that after reading that article by where the Australian Government identified the reasoning for the influx of Koreans, you attempt to counter that factual article because it is in contrast to your opinion.

I can't believe we're having an argument based on what appears in the media! I don't believe a single word the newspapers tell me - I believe only what I see and hear for myself, from first-hand sources. A couple of years ago, I was involved in a series of interviews by a reporter with an overtly anti-sex work agenda. After a lengthy email and two follow-up phone conversations, you know what his eventual article said? "Representatives from [organisation name] were unavailable for comment".

We're wh*res, Run Mann. Whether it's the Australian sex worker association or an international sex worker representative, our opinions and experiences count for nothing in this debate. It doesn't matter that we're actually the ones advising the Australian Govt, the Federal Police, the Immigration Dept...even the US State Dept...on Australian sex industry issues. The papers will only speak to the abolitionist NGOs running rescue programs, because traffickers and sex slaves make good copy. International media runs it for the same reason - especially America, because they started all this and they have something to prove.

You don't have to agree with anything I say. I don't believe anything I haven't experienced for myself and neither should you. But I have no ulterior motives and no reason to bullshit anyone. My only concern in the world is the health and safety of sex workers, be they Australian, Thai, Korean or Martian. I don't make any money doing what I do, nor do I stand to benefit from any changes to policy (as I don't work in the industry any more). I live in a wealthy country that's prepared to spend money assisting people in the Asia-Pacific region and I intend to see that it's spent wisely, not wasted chasing shadows.

[Rubber Nursey]

If by personal attack, you mean because I called you a feminazi; well perhaps that was unfair. But, you were coming across a bit strident and femi-something and you weren't too objective in your comments about me, as well. Even if all of us don't agree, it's best to try to keep it non-personal.

C'mon, OTH...you also called me a preachy Western hooker and told me I knew fuck all about anything! But I shouldn't have bitten back and I apologise for my short temper. I'm actually about as far from a feminazi as you're ever going to meet and I'm on your side (that is, P4P clients' side) in this fight. I come to this site to learn and you guys have been invaluable in increasing my understanding of international issues over the years. I'd really like to be able to chat without things getting nasty.

Empower ....doesn't for instance represent Burmese sex slaves languishing in hundreds of border brothels, nor the Indian hookers trafficked into Paharat in Bangkok.

They try, OTH. They keep their ear to the ground and their finger on the pulse and try very hard to be aware of, and support, women from all over the Thai sex industry. But when I originally referred to Empower, I was talking about a specific issue. Trafficking and sex slavery are very different to exit and re-training and/or preventing women entering the sex industry. Empower does not support the latest efforts by the Thai Govt because of the potential negative impact on current sex workers and I respect their assessment as experts in their field. But either way, exit programs will not prevent traffickers exploiting and abusing women. Providing alternative employment MAY give local women options other than entering prostitution themselves or engaging middle men to find them work, but it won't stop situations where girls are bought and sold into prostitution (the potential financial rewards are just too large compared to 'regular' work), nor will it stop women from outside Thailand being smuggled into the country. The two issues have to be looked at separately.

My problem with this (and every other 'eradication' method employed by every other country) is that it's simply a bandaid solution. It's treatment for a symptom, rather than a cure for the illness. It doesn't address ANY of the larger problems associated with leaving the industry. For example, one of the primary things that these sorts of initiatives usually ignore, is the stigma associated with being an ex-hooker. Even in my own country, you can train and re-skill a sex worker all you like, but the gaps in her resume, the paper trail detailing her brothel employment, or the prostitution convictions on her record, will always brand her as a wh*re and jeopardise her chances of regular employment. With the added issues of class and 'face' in Asian countries, I can only imagine the difficulties Thai hookers face when trying to leave sex work.

The Thai Government needs to introduce anti-discrimination legislation. They need to stop taking down names and/or arresting sex workers. They need to stop police going to villages and blackmailing ex-sex workers under threat of disclosure. And they need to do all this at the same time as they start offering sex workers alternative employment, because without these protections, ex-hookers cannot survive in the real world. Governments and abolitionist NGOs need to stop focusing on the 'sex' part of sex work and start taking a more wholistic view. It's just not as simple as offering someone another job.

[Bob Down]

I tried doing the same with Western women and all they wanted was more and more and in return treated the dog better. At least the dog got fed regularly and occasionally got sex. If I wanted something to eat I fixed it myself and if I wanted sex I had to either do it myself or find it elsewhere. And if I went looking eslewhere you could hear the Western wife bitching a mile away. Different with the Thai wife. From the very beginning I told her that I needed sex regularly and if she didn't give it to me then I would get it elsewhere. Thai women seem to accept this as a fact of life.

Just copied the above from the BKK reports as it should be in this thread.

I wanted to know if you ever needed to go elsewhere for sex, I was in Philippines last week for a holiday but failed to tell my TG I was going. Had to admit I was not at home, she had decided by herself I was there fucking around without any help from me. She knows I have friends in Philippines she doesn't know they are bargirls. But to her any female friend must be a fuck buddy.

I have a few thai girls I chat to online, some very flirty and like to play the field. Others are definitely one man girls and their men will definitely be one girl guys.

I guess every girl has their own idea as to what is acceptable and what is not.

PS. she is still talking to me even if I failed to take her on holiday with me or spend my holiday with her. I will be back in BKK later this year to see her.

[M P Lurker]

i've been heavily involved in issues around trafficking in australia for a number of years and i can't even begin to tell you how ill-informed the australian media is on the issue. groups like project respect, quoted in the article you posted, rely heavily on promoting and perpetuating trafficking myths so they'll keep getting bucketfuls of money thrown at them. with encouragement from people like the us government, they've turned trafficking into a multi-million dollar 'rescue' industry. the australian institute of criminology is due to release a report which will hopefully open a few people's eyes to the realities of trafficking in australia.

i have been aquainted with several girls working illegally in australia in the past (mostly thai but some others).
i haven't been to places where girls are totally locked up like sex slaves. i wouldn't have been let in.

the girls i knew had several enemies:
1. the australian immigration out to catch them, lock them up in detention, and send them back to their home country.
2. the contract bosses who had tricked them, taking virtually all the money earned until the massive contract was paid off.
some bosses would report girls to immigration once the debt was paid off. mostly the girls' passports had been confirep001ed by the bosses to prevent girls escaping. some girls were kept under very strict "supervision" all the time.
but not all bosses were totally evil.
3. other working girls jealous of the foreign girl's popularity would report them to immigration.

the customers were the good guys (mostly) and some customers helped girls to escape from their extreme situations.

some girls who were really lucky made a lot of money in the end and much more than what they could have in their home country.

the authorities should have been focussing on illegal activities of the contract bosses, be it taxation fraud, stealing passports, selling girls on to a 3rd party, imprisoning girls, coercing girls to work with no work permit, etc.
the girls themselves were just pawns in the play.

its very strange to government authorities deporting foreign prostitutes, seemingly to protect the higher priced business of australian prostitutes who delivered a poor service on average (a few good ones but mostly lousy in my opinion), and protecting the very lucrative business of brothel owners not using the illegal foreign workers.

the european common market is great because it allows prostitutes to work, coming from a very broad set of foreign countries, although the fkk clubs in germany do have police raids from time to time too, checking credentials for working (could be looking for **** girls).

[Run Mann]

It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because he didn't agree with my point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.

Then I suppose you can see why you came across as I described (too emotionally involved), still his actions doesn't justify yours.

Those stories about the Korean women being trafficked and there are more stories, were also reported by the Korean and U.S media unless that are all lying about those women being trafficked. Interesting that after reading that article by where the Australian Government identified the reasoning for the influx of Koreans, you attempt to counter that factual article because it is in contrast to your opinion. I did not see anything in those articles you posted that supported your opinion. However, even though you said it was your opinion and used an event incorrectly as a precursor to your opinion, you should be responsible in making opinionated claims that any minor research would have produce the answers to if you are serious about being, that word again.. objective. Good luck.

[Old Thai Hand]

As to dismissing OTH's colleague's research, I was a bit miffed at his suggestion that I knew nothing about prostitution, but is mate does because he's done some study about it. It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because he didn't agree with my point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.

Firstly, Empower largely represents girls in the Farang-oriented sex industry which makes up less than 10% of the total sex industry in Thailand. It doesn't for instance represent Burmese sex slaves languishing in hundreds of border brothels, nor the Indian hookers trafficked into Paharat in Bangkok.

I never said you knew nothing about prostitution, I said you appeared to know little about prostitution in Thailand especially as it relates to Thai culture. But, perhaps my assessment was wrong.

"Some study" that my collegaue did was an intense, thorough 2-year investigation into every nook and cranny of the sex industry in Thailand. It was so thorough in fact, that it sent shivers through the Thai ministry that funded it and they immediately buried it as too explosive. The last thing the Thai government wants made public is the shameful truth about the pervasive and sinister dark side of prostitution in this country.

If by personal attack, you mean because I called you a feminazi; well perhaps that was unfair. But, you were coming across a bit strident and femi-something and you weren't too objective in your comments about me, as well. Even if all of us don't agree, it's best to try to keep it non-personal.

[Rubber Nursey]

The other aspect is that for many of the Thai girls servicing the Farang market, it is a fun life to have. There is the excitement of the big city, the buzz of the nightlife, plentiful booze, plenty of funny friends to make, and enough money to indulge in the occasional shopping spree while still sending home the all important money that the family has come to expect.

That's a really important point, Seydlitz, and one that's often overlooked when talking about viable alternatives to sex work. For many girls, hooking is not just about the money - it's an entire lifestyle. When workers leave the industry, they are often also walking away from their friends, their social lives and sometimes even their sex lives.

The stigma of sex work can really impact on your ability to maintain relationships with people outside the sex industry, to the point where just about everyone you know is either a hooker, a client or a brothel owner. When you 'get a real job' you have to leave your entire support network behind, especially in cases where being seen with your old workmates could put your current employment at risk. It's very, very hard to walk away from everything you know and love.

[Rubber Nursey]

Not sure why you think all these women were originally sex workers but it’s actually a faulty assertion. Many of them were ordinary women as we have seen in from many other countries that were duped and deceived with false promises of large sums of money for employment.

I've been heavily involved in issues around trafficking in Australia for a number of years and I can't even begin to tell you how ill-informed the Australian media is on the issue. Groups like Project Respect, quoted in the article you posted, rely heavily on promoting and perpetuating trafficking myths so they'll keep getting bucketfuls of money thrown at them. With encouragement from people like the US Government, they've turned trafficking into a multi-million dollar 'rescue' industry. The Australian Institute of Criminology is due to release a report which will hopefully open a few people's eyes to the realities of trafficking in Australia.

My comment wasn't a scientific analysis of the situation - it was just my personal opinion (I did say 'to me'). However, my opinion is based on both anecdotal evidence from Korean sex workers and empirical data.
http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/is...-workers/2008/
http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/is...grant-workers/
http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migration/

As to dismissing OTH's colleague's research, I was a bit miffed at his suggestion that I knew nothing about prostitution, but is mate does because he's done some study about it. It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because he didn't agree with my point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.

I'm not looking for validation of my own beliefs. I know exactly where I stand on the issue of education and re-training and I'm not likely to change my mind unless I see an example of some sort of success. What I'm interested in is how other people (clients, NGOs, Govts, etc) justify these sorts of programs. I like to hear different perspectives...although I admit it's mostly so I can develop arguments against alternative opinions. But if every one of you guys had answered 'Yes, I think Thai hookers would leave the industry in droves if they opened an IT centre', then I might have to reconsider my position, or at least try and see the issue from a different angle.

[Run Mann]

to me, this is another example of coercive and/or abusive anti-prostitution strategies - being passed off as 'positive changes' and 'viable alternatives' for sex workers - failing dismally. the korean govt may be claiming a win on the war against prostitution, but all they've really done is send their sex workers to other countries. not that we mind, of course - we're happy to have them.

this is just poor diminutive flavor analysis of a given situation. this story about increase korean women entering australian has been out there for a while. after human traffickers started having visa and other issues bringing thai women into australia they focused their efforts on korean women by promising them the moon. not sure why you think all these women were originally sex workers but it’s actually a faulty assertion. many of them were ordinary women, (we have seen similar situation in other countries) that were duped and deceived with false promises of large sums of money for employment. korean women are inveterately known to be delicacies for many sexual appetites. go to london, nyc, los angeles, amsterdam and many other major cities and you will find them. they are there because of the demand for them not because of the crackdown. there are many examples of how the koreans have successfully transform their country but i see no reason to list them here.

i will agree with you on the point you made that you are too close this being a (former) sex worker yourself to be objective of which you seem not to be, at least as it pertains to this situation. you summarily dismissed oth’s research (presentation) because it was contrary to your view and you immaturely and incorrectly analyzed the above without any empirical data to support your claim coupled with your previous post here where you were off base (although you explained your reason for that) says that you are looking more for validation of your views than objective answers or analysis with your question in that last post. of course this is just my honest view based on what you’ve written here and not meant to attack you as a person. here are a couple of links to about koreans and some of their issue in australia and see the story below about increase koreans entering australian and a detail [CodeWord908] report from the aussies that touch on the issues with the koreans.

having said all that i wish you well in what ever mission you are on but would say as you probably already know objectivity will produce the truth.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-12377,00.html

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/what's%20new/australiatrafficking.pdf

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_8479109________________________________________________________________
australian sex traffickers target korean women

sydney - traffickers are turning to south korean women after a crackdown by australian police on the importation of "sex slaves" from thailand, australia's national broadcaster has charged.

the australian crime commission confirmed that while the number of thai sex workers in australia had decreased, the number from south korea had increased, the abc website reported yesterday.
"traffickers in particular knew that thai women were being watched more, they were being scrutinised more," said kathleen altzahn from the non-government organisation project respect.

"in the case specifically of south korean women, they don't have to get the same sort of visas as thai women. they can get working holiday visas, so then they can work legally in australia without so much difficulty."
thai women are often gang-raped, starved and beaten to coerce them into accepting the conditions of contracts which demand they pay "debts" of up to a$50,000 ($37,500) to the traffickers, she said.

a former sex worker, nikki, told the lateline programme that there seemed to be a shift where thai women were still being brought out to australian brothels but so were many korean women. "traffickers are just finding another way, basically, to get around things," she said. "it's gone from thai women and now there's a demand for let's say more exotic asian women like korean women. "i have a prediction that the next spate will be african women. and where there is a demand, someone will supply."

justice minister chris ellison was quoted as saying he was pleased that the shift from thai women to south korean women had been picked up because police could now adjust their tactics.

[Opebo]

You're a funny guy, is what you are. Is that all you can come up with? I can't believe that you mean this silly statement to be taken seriously. But, I'll respond as if that's your intention.

No, Mr. O it's not your right, especially here. You are a guest. You have no rights or say in anything in LOS. As a Farang, your position here is so tenuous, you could be tossed out on your ass, without a reason. So, if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.

You are such a simplistic literalist, Old - I did not mean that one has a recognized right in Thai law to be free from State interference in one's sex life. I was referring to human rights in a more general, theoretical, and international sense - in other words my opinion of what should be human rights. Certainly in practice none of we working class persons have any rights at all, either at home or abroad. Rights are reserved - in fact - for the owning class.

It also became clear from some of your other posts that you misunderstood me in other ways. I did not imply that one has a right 'to a prostitute'. I stated that both john and prostitute have a right to expect to be free from State interference in their interactions. If you and she cannot come to an amicable arrangement then that's your problem.

[Bumholes1]

. Anyhow, it sure beats taking care of the cattle home in Wherethefuckaburi

Now what part of Isaan might that be in?

Perhaps that's Opebo's home town!

[Seydlitz]

So instead of asking roundabout questions that can be easily misinterpreted, I'll ask you outright - do you think that current Thai sex workers would see (for example) working in an IT centre, as a viable alternative to sex work? Do you believe that any of the jobs they create will be truly comparable to sex work in regard to wages and hours?.

If I may intrude in this lovely battle of wits, my personal view is that one cannot answer that question because in Thailand there are in fact at least two sex industries, one catering to local needs and one for the sex tourists. I have only limited insight into the Thai-oriented scene, but as far as the Farang-oriented market is concerned, my impression is that the Thai economy will probably never be able (nor willing) to compete to attract the best and brightest (and cutest) gals who can be successful in the naughty nightlife. There is simply too much money to be made too easily.

The other aspect is that for many of the Thai girls servicing the Farang market, it is a fun life to have. There is the excitement of the big city, the buzz of the nightlife, plentiful booze, plenty of funny friends to make, and enough money to indulge in the occasional shopping spree while still sending home the all important money that the family has come to expect. Anyhow, it sure beats taking care of the cattle home in Wherethefuckaburi or indeed working 14 hours a day in a meat packing factory in suburban Bangkok.

True, it is a relatively short career, but long-term planning is not a Thai strong point Besides, most of these gals had very little to lose in term of social face or respectability to start with and coming home to Wherethefuckaburi with enough money to build a decent house sort of compensates the social stigma.

I suppose that one could reason along similar lines for sex workers in the Thai scene, so that p4p in Thailand will stay, I guess, even if it is true that the sex scene is no more what it used to be. That may be because the top 10% of the potential sex workers have found better things to do with their lives, however I suspect that there is an increasingly important segment of the Thai p4p population that is now simply seeking to get better money abroad (Singapore or Macau for example) for the same work.

[Old Thai Hand]

By all means governments have a responsibility to try to create an environment where women will have lots of choices for work that can pay enough to live on. A lot easier said than done. Thai culture causes fathers to take their daughters out of school at a young age. The bad attitude of the father is that its a waste of money educating girls when their destiny is to become a housewife and look after the kids.

Other opportunities is not so important for prostitutes doing very well.
The problem is that there are too many P4P (full or part time) in Bangkok to allow them all to make a good living. then again there are too many taxis too.

The alternatives should be for those who cannot earn enough selling sex.

Educating women to delay having babies seems important to me. The number of single mothers, whose Thai husbands have run away abandoning both wife and child, that need to to get extra money somehow is extraordinary in Thailand.

There is no legally forced child support from fathers as far as I know.

Prostitution will never go away.
Those countries with few choices for well paid jobs but lots of pretty women, and any acceptance that sex itself is really not so evil, will always have the most P4P girls.

Just accept it and enjoy it! I envy those who are not sex addicts and can just leave sex alone.

I proudly support girls of Thailand and their kids financially unlike the real fathers of the those kids.

Actually, you raise a very good point. Strong family law would be a really good first step. There's nothing in place now. Not surprising, as it's a patriarchal society and Thai men are nortorious for not accepting responsibility for anything. In fact most are never completely weened off their mother's tit and stay irresponsible babies all their lives.

[M P Lurker]

By all means governments have a responsibility to try to create an environment where women will have lots of choices for work that can pay enough to live on. A lot easier said than done. Thai culture causes fathers to take their daughters out of school at a young age. The bad attitude of the father is that its a waste of money educating girls when their destiny is to become a housewife and look after the kids.

Other opportunities is not so important for prostitutes doing very well.
The problem is that there are too many P4P (full or part time) in Bangkok to allow them all to make a good living. then again there are too many taxis too.

The alternatives should be for those who cannot earn enough selling sex.

Educating women to delay having babies seems important to me. The number of single mothers, whose Thai husbands have run away abandoning both wife and child, that need to to get extra money somehow is extraordinary in Thailand.

There is no legally forced child support from fathers as far as I know.

Prostitution will never go away.
Those countries with few choices for well paid jobs but lots of pretty women, and any acceptance that sex itself is really not so evil, will always have the most P4P girls.

Just accept it and enjoy it! I envy those who are not sex addicts and can just leave sex alone.

I proudly support girls of Thailand and their kids financially unlike the real fathers of the those kids.

[Redfield10]

Probably not, unless you have highly desirable skills, a post-grad degree and can get a job teaching university (no age limits at unis): not an easy thing to do especially outside of Bangkok.

I have a Master's degree, of course. ;

If I move to Thaland it will be on a decent pension, but certainly don't want to spend all day and night chasing women. I'd be bored to death.

Ok, maybe four hours a day chasing.