The Morality of Prostitution

[Domino]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../30/wgerm30.xml

I agree this is bad; sexual discrimination of this sort has no place in today's enlightened age. Why do German men not have to report for this kind of work as well? And what about immigrants and refugees? They too could spread their legs for chump change to make Germany a happier, more tolerant place.

That is, of course, mho, but the Neo Nazis do not agree: http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-...nefits%27.html

Takes all types, I guess.

[Joe Zop]

Congrats on your upgrade -- use it wisely!

[Your Guest]

Dear Joe and RN,

Remember me? Now we have a level playing field. Jackson mailed me that I was a senior member one privilege being that my posts appear as soon as they are posted.

Yogesh

[El Chapin]

That story ran through German media as well, a couple of weeks ago. It soon turned out to be complete nonsense. Although prostitution is perfectly legal, it's still considered to be an "immoral ocupation", and no one will be referred to this kind of employment by the state-run job agencies, let alone be "forced" to work in the trade.

[Mikster]

The decline of Europe continues. My brother lives in Germany and told me something about this but I didnt believe him, thought he was joking. An unbelievable article. What if the girl was married or engaged? This is insanity gone amuck. I love working girls as much as the next guy, but I never want to fuck a girl who doesnt want it, or for that matter, a girl who is practically forced into it or face serious financial problems. Even more unbelievable in a first world country like Germany (for now). Im not a moralist or religious, but this breaks the common decency of a civilized country, if they are one anymore.

Milkster

[My Alias]

If an unemployed woman doesn't report for a job interview at a brothel, she can lose her benefits. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...30/wgerm30.xml

[Sporadic]

In the inimitable words of Mr. Carlin:

"Selling is legal; Sex is legal. So why isn´t selling sex legal?"

It seems to me that the only way to minimize the exploitation-slavery aspect (the real downside to prostitution IMHO) would be legalisation and regulation.

Sin taxes have been working wonders for decades.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[CBGBConnisur]

I don't see any crime in prostitution, there are worse things that human beings have done to one another in the past, and continue to do today in the 21st century. People will continue to have and enjoy sex in the next 1000 years. Human nature will never change. The best solution is to accomodate prostitution in the most humane manner possible, keeping out unsavory elements such as organized crime. Most of Western Europe, Canada, and Australia regulate the trade. The only developed nation that still keeps the trade underground is the US.

[El Aleman]

RN:

There are 2 places that I personally know, where payment afterwards is the established procedure, but for quite different reasons:

- German FKK's
Here, everybody has his / her peace of mind with it. On one side, it leaves the actual time spent together open (usually it is charged in 30 min. increments). Good for the girl, because if she makes me happy, I rather often like to enjoy this state of happiness for a longer time than the originally planned half hour.

The customer can refuse payment in case of a total denial of service, but will be politely but VERY effectively be reminded of his duties by the club's "security" staff if he should just try to run away. The girl is sure to get her money as long as she adhers to the standards the club considers appropriate. The rules here are neither set by the girl nor the client - they are established by the club.

- Buenos Aires
I don't know, if it was "us" (the WSG mongers) who in fact changed rules down there, but I agree with him that it is usually accepted if brought up during the initial negotiations. If this rulechange is the case, maybe "we" also established a reputation as reliable clients who usually keep their promises. It should not be forgot, that "we" usually consume in the high end of the market and often pay a premium compared with locals.

Interestingly, in both places, prostitution is NOT illegal.

What can happen in a different setting, can be read in my recent post in the Nexico City section, http://www.*************.info/forum/...read.php?t=433 . I don't know any other business, where an offer, that has ben explicitely published (on a website) could be changed after payment is received. So much to business ethics.

Terms of any transaction are open to negotiation, and in a situation of high supply, the buyer's chances to set his terms grow, with high demand those of the seller. BA is a place of high supply.

I have never denied a girl payment afterwards, not even in situations where I was rather unsatisfied. I am always willing to concede that just the "chemistry" was not there which is necessary for something as intimate as sex, paid or not, even if I suspected that it was not lacking chemistry but just plain bad service, not even trying from the girls side to establisch that "chemistry". I did however throw girls out of my room, with taxi fare, when I got the impression that things would go sour after (advance) payment.

just 2 cents,


El Alemán

[Rubber Nursey]

You know...I drank quite a lot over the weekend, so when I woke up feeling kinda strange, I just blamed the vodka. But it wasn't the booze, was it...I WAS OBVIOUSLY ABDUCTED BY ALIENS AND TRANSPORTED TO SOME SORT OF ALTERNATIVE REALITY!

How else can I explain PZ agreeing with me??? *grin*

Like he said, it's all about legal recourse. Here, clients can go to the cops (without fear of arrest) and report me for ripping them off. I don't have the same luxury. Even if I managed to follow all the ridiculous guidelines and be one of the few girls actually working 'legally' here, I would still end up worse off if I went to police. (Better to be a couple of hundred bucks out, than become 'known' to the police and deal with the ensuing harassment).

Sorry, but I need that cash up front or it's just not worth me taking the risk. PZ's criminal analogies were right on the money.

Hey...was that a pig flying past my window?

[PsyberZombie]

You guys keep using the analogies of Legitimate Businesses to justify why you shouldn't pay the girl until after the Act

BUT = Prostitution is ILLEGAL , and any·time an Illegal Act is performed for Money , the Customer pays *first*

Better analogies here would be hiring an Arsonist to burn down your business ; or a Hit Man to snuff your spouse ; or in the old days , arranging for a criminal Abortion

[ If your Hit Man agrees to paid from the Insurance Money after you collect , you can be sure that it's an Under·cover Cop you're dealing with ]

The reason seems fairly obvious = there's no legitimate recourse if the act is performed but then the customer refuses to pay

Do you risk getting ripped off ??

Of course , but because not every Monger has the gentle nature and excellent Impulse Control that we here have , these Con Artists Chicks are usually the ones that end up beat up or murdered , if it's any consolation

[Freeler]

RN,

Do you pay the man before you enter his shop? Do you pay the painter before he finishes the job on your house? Do you give the garage your car and your money?
I think not!

I make a point of paying after the deed. The money handover time is part of the talks. Any woman who changes her mind on that subject may change her mind on other things as well.
There is one place where I do pay in advance. Right here, at home in the Lowlands. Prostitution is a legitimate business here, so the ladies have to comply with certain simple rules. If the lady doesn't deliver, I can walk away and come back with the police.
Tho (female) coppers may find the situation awkward, their presence alone will fuck up business in the area for at least an hour.

[Joe Zop]

RN, I agree that the provider has the right to set the rules and I have the right to refuse. At the same time, I, as a customer, have the right to state the terms of service I'm interested in and willing to accept. And if I were to go into a restaurant that asked me to pay before I received my meal I would simply go to another restaurant. And if I order a specific dish, it is not acceptable for me to be brought another one without my express agreement simply because that's what the restaurant decides to serve me. The same is true with most service providers in other fields -- I don't pay doctors, plumbers, gardeners, electricians, mechanics, or any other professionals before they do their job, and it's a process of mutual agreement about what is to be done as part of the contract.

Now, there are plenty of situations where I've no difficulty in paying up front. If I'm at a brothel, a massage parlor, or any establishment where I've got some degree of recourse or a clear location where I can find the provider if I'm scammed then it's no issue. If I've got some kind of report or testimonial that this specific person or service is reliable then I'm generally confident enough to pay first.

The times I've had problems and when I am hesitant about paying up-front are almost exclusively with outcall services or pickups or in third-world countries. In those situations it can be almost a programmed script that ten minutes after the money is handed over a "problem" arises and a) I need to go see my driver b) I need to leave to deal with my kids, c) I have a brand new set of rules that are completely different from the ones we discussed ten minutes ago before cash was handed over. And because my money is gone my avenues of response are limited. I have in fact three times called in hotel security because the "provider" decided she needed to leave immediately upon receiving my cash (with no services provided and less than ten minutes elapsed) and refused to return it or leave it there until her return, and I once had a knife pulled on me in that situtation. I have also called women's services several times when such a scenario arose, and in those situations it was generally much less than a toss-up as to whether anything positive would happen. And in places like Thailand or Kenya handing over the money up-front is tantamount to announcing that a) the session is over and it's time for the woman to leave or b) you're new at this and ripe for being scammed or ripped off -- and eight out of ten times that's exactly what will happen. I haven't dealt with streetwalkers for decades, so I have no comment on the scenarios there.

I appreciate that the provider also feels at risk in these situations, and generally go out of my way to demonstrate I understand that and am not going to be a problem. I generally show that the money is there and set aside and I've got no problem having it in plain sight. In most of these situations (other than the third-world ones where it's absolutely customary to discretely pay as the provider is leaving) I'm going to have it discreetly put aside in an envelope but clearly evident. But once it's put away I know there's a far, far higher percentage chance I'm gonna get screwed, and not in the fashion I'm counting on. I completely agree with making clear that I tip for superior service, and that can help, and obviously most of these issues are with first-time as opposed to return engagements since in the latter there's a degree of history and trust. But I would rather walk away horny (or, generally more accurately in these scenarios, send the woman away) and have done so, than risk being ripped off.

PZ, the first time I went to Vegas, it did nothing but snow. I had naturally packed nothing appropriate and froze my ass off most of my time there. I was forced to stay in casinos almost my entire trip, simply to make sure I had enough nickels to rub together to keep me warm!

[PsyberZombie]

Did you guys hear that it fricken Snowed in Las Vegas this week ??

So I guess Hell really has frozen over , which explains why I actually *agree* with RN for once !!

To wit : the girl should be paid first

I also do what Civ2000 does = offer less up front , but promise a good tip for excellent service . And if the price isn't outrageous , I pay the entire sum first and also offer a tip after·wards
[ a decent looking SW gets .4 for a BBBJ here where I live , Rhode Island , USA ]

A side benefit to this Tip Routine is that tossing a girl a Jackson tip will almost always get her to offer you her digits [ I don't even ask any more because if the girl doesn't offer them , that usually means she doesn't have any to offer ]

In my humble experience , if you follow this routine , the next time you pick up the same chick she will A.) Remember you , and B.) NOT ask for the money first . So those of you who don't like paying first should try it Civ's and my way , and then every·one will be Happy !!

[Sporadic]

Suggestion 1: Pay the agreed price.

Suggestion 2: Respect Privacy.

Suggestion 3: Respect Boundaries.

Suggestion 4: Pay after the act always.

Suggestion 5: Reward good service.

It would appear everyone in on-board with numbers 1,2 and 3.

Number 4 seems to depend upon your point of view. Like Joe, I have never ripped off a provider, but I have been ripped off.

Where I do my hobbying, pay after is a well established policy, for me at least, but is actually a moot point unless this is a new (to me) provider. I appreciate that Dubai has a rather unique scene in that respect so my experiences are probably not an entirely valid contribution to this discussion.

Suggestion 5 has been a personal hobby-horse of mine for years. I try very hard to have a relaxed, enjoyable experience with sex workers. Better for them, and way better for me. A tip is an excellent way of expressing your pleasure, for any service.

May I suggest that numbers 4 and 5 are actually more of a "best practices" kind of thing vice ethical standards?

Keep those cards and letters coming in!

Cheers,

Sporadic