The Morality of Prostitution

[Fedup]

Yes... well said Proko and Joe... it's really just a programming vs rational thought issue at this point. I'm not too sure what my problem is anyway: I've had no issues with fooling around around here.

RN... that guy sure put a big foot in his mouth. But I think the incident says more about the character of your friend than the guy. She obviously had some residual emotional issues or she would have just given him a knee to the balls (which he deserved for being so stupid). Examples of problems dating a SW over a "normal" girl?... Well there's that whole "I wonder if I'm the first guy here today?" question. Also, guys already face the "Am I good enough compared to her other lovers?" issue... having a GF who's seen or done everything in the book would raise some questions with me. Men already have problems with going after a person's weak spots and exploiting them for control. Dating a SW leaves alot of room for these types of men to abuse her mentally... and that's likely the type who will date a SW. You're not going to see goody2shoes, bible boy dating a SW are you?. Not that I'm saying any of the previous is morally right... just that I can see it happening.

[Rubber Nursey]

Paddy,
Please don't think for a second that I believe what you did was "wrong". I think it was a beautiful sentiment, and shows that you care about (and understand) her and her life, rather than just thinking about the sex. Men who develop relationships with sex workers are often quick to adopt a "freebie" mentality. They forget about the fact that because they are no longer PAYING money...she is no longer EARNING money! And I also don't think there was anything wrong with giving her money in the first place...it just depends on what you told her the money was FOR. There would be a difference between saying "Seeing as you are not on paid leave from your waitressing job, things may be tight for you. So I thought you might need some spare spending money" and saying "How about I pay for your services while you are here on holiday".

I remember a few years ago, my friend (an ex hooker) broke up with her boyfriend (an ex client) for throwing her job in her face. They were in bed one night and he tried to have sex with her. She said she was tired and just wanted to get an early night. He said (in a joking manner...not trying to be nasty), "How about I give you 50 bucks then...that always used to get you motivated". He thought he was just being funny, but it absolutely broke her heart. She went back to work after that...and her reason was that if she was going to be treated like a wh*re anyway, she may as well BE a wh*re and get paid! By the way, it was directly after this incident that I decided I would NEVER date a client! LOL

Personally I don't think it's any different dating a hooker than it is dating a woman/man who has previously been married, or in jail, or lived in poverty or some other thing that we don't want to be continuously reminded of. We all like to keep our past separate from our new relationships.

Which brings me to Joe,
We agree on the fact that defining the relationship and being sure of each others motives are a MUST when moving from client/provider to a couple. But you disagreed with me when I said that there should be no other real differences in how you treat her in the relationship. Can you give me some examples of how dating a sex worker may be more difficult that a "normal" woman? In your opinion, what are the added "perceptual layers and landmines" that you spoke of?

and lastly Prokofiev re: your note to Fedup,
Beautifully said!

[Paddy]

Hello RN,

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions in reference to my well intentioned diplomatic blunder.

You're quite correct in reference to your example in that if she had not been a SW, I would have never offered her the money for her lost wages. In a way, I discriminated against her. I should have treated her just like any other lady.

Another motive behind my offer to her was the fact that she has two teenage boys to support. Being a parent of two adult children I know how expensive they are. Soo...

Well, you live and you learn I guess. One other thing, I'm frequently blind to the obvious it seems and I should have seen this one coming.

Thanks again and welcome back.

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by joe_zop
Point taken, and people have definitely emigrated for reasons of far less clarity or importance -- but I'm still not so sure that looking for the "great good place," as they used to call it back when, is exactly a practical or desireable solution for most folks.

Yeh, but the people who post on this board aren't "most folks." They are more adventurous than most and by and large more well-traveled. What's impractical about emigrating? 99% of our ancestors did it, and emigrating to Méjico, for example, is very do-able. All you need is to be 51 years old and be able to show a monthly income of I believe it is 300 times the Méjican daily minimum wage (about $4.25 per day). Piece of cake. Well, I guess the hard part might be making it to age 51. Another example is the Bahamas (certainly not my first choice, nor my second, nor my third ... ); you can get not just residency but full citizenship by investing $250k US. Buying a home that costs that much qualifies, or buying a business, or just parking that amount of money in a Bahamian bank. Just trying to be helpful as always.

Dickhead

[Joe Zop]

Point taken, and people have definitely emigrated for reasons of far less clarity or importance -- but I'm still not so sure that looking for the "great good place," as they used to call it back when, is exactly a practical or desireable solution for most folks.

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by joe_zop
[i]The problem with heading for Cuba (or wherever else) is that sooner or later you have to go home, ]

Not true! Home is where the hard on is. Plenty of countries out there to emigrate to.

[Joe Zop]

The problem with heading for Cuba (or wherever else) is that sooner or later you have to go home, and while you might be sated you're still left with a lack in your normal life. If you find the absolutely right person and things truly work, you're set, whereas in the other scenario it's a constant search.

The issue of men and women and how they approach the world as a couple, in whatever form that takes, is what matters. To begin with (and this fits the hired-girl scenario as well) it's all about face-to-face, as you explore and learn each other. In order to successfully get to a long-term relationship, there must be a move away from being totally and simply face-to-face toward being side-by-side, supporting each other as you take on the world and life. This latter scenario is where things very often break down, as the basic attraction began with the FTF, and the move to SBS can seem to one or the other like a loss of interest as opposed to what it really is -- an acceptance of a complete partner in life, a presumption of both support and supporting. Side-by-side is far more complex and problematic, as it's not simply pheremones but, to me, the history of our species suggests it's worth it.

I'm pretty much pro-hedonism in all forms, and I'm basically in favor of getting laid as much as is possible, but there are also other aspects to life, and none of us can either afford or sustain an entire life that completely consists of seeking out a new bedmate every night. In the end, we don't want to be alone, especially as we face the prospect of change and the disappearance of those who we grew up with and who know who we realy are, and we want someone who shares more with us than fluids spewed against polyurethane. Doesn't mean we can will it to happen, or that it will occur according to our timetable. Keep looking, Fedup, and courage -- you've only got to be right once.

[Prokofiev]

FedUp,

A "hired girl vacation" has precious little to do with a long-term relationship. Don't confuse an hour with a woman for cash -no matter how good it is- with having a girlfriend. Two completely different ideas which DO NOT compete with one another. Nor is one a SUBSTITUTE for the other. Throughout history, men have juggled a wife and family with hookers, girlfriends and mistresses. Having only a wife or girlfriend can and does work for many men. Having only dancers, hookers and massage parlor girls as female companionship wears thin VERY fast. Don't make the mistake of choosing one over the other - it's not an either/or situation. Explore and investigate all options and you will soon figure out what makes you happiest. It will lead to a richer, more interesting life.

[Fedup]

Yes RN... my brain tells me the same but my judao-christian background has programmed me to not listen to my brain.

As I stated in my post over on the American Women forum: I'll soon know if I should continue dabbling with GF's and one nighters or just head straight for Cuba and a life with endless hot pussy.

[Joe Zop]

Originally posted by RN
Joe thinks more like a women that I do sometimes!

Umm, well, thanks, I think. Hmmm. But it's more anthropology than biology -- there are actually more than enough Josephines around my family so I don't need to play the part :-) My approach is actually absolutely a male one -- wanting to "fix" things and keep them simple, and and feeling that it's usually easier to figure out how to keep women happy while not compromising my beliefs than it is to try to clean things up after they're unhappy, which never seems to work, as unlike men they tend to remember little things (both good and bad) forever. I've just found direct attempts at compassionate honesty (combined with a willingness to apologize) to be the simplest approach, even though that can also can blow up in your face, as I'm just not smart enough to keep track of anything else.

I do think, though, that Paddy's very right on one aspect -- it is more complicated when you're dealing with a sex worker in the netherworld of a relationship. I agree completely with you, RN, that it needs to be clarified, but the sex worker element definitely adds all kinds of perceptual layers and landmines. IMHO the main special sensitivity that needs to be involved, at least until it's absolutely crystal clear what kind of relationship it is, is a much more up-front discussion and approach about "what you are" as a duo than you might have in other circumstances. In this case I think it's doubly complex as the woman involved has other jobs as well and probably some of the discomfit comes from her not strictly identifying herself as a sex worker. (Kind of, I'm not a prostitute, I just play one at work...)

[Rubber Nursey]

Originally posted by joe_zop
Hooray for both, say I, and utter worship and multiple academy awards and orgasms for the provider who can effortlessly read her client's mood and desires and switch accordingly.

*Bowing* "Thank you, thank you. This award means so much to me. I would like to thank the God in whom I do not believe, my Mum, my agent, the Academy....." LOL

And you're right of course Joe...there are plenty of clients for whom sex is not of major importance. There are also many (especially those with erectile problems, etc) that do not want sex at all.

Fedup,
I know I'm not qualified to answer your question (because of my obvious lack of dangly bits in my trousers) but I can't really see that it would make much difference. I think there is a risk with whichever path you choose. Men who have had limited sexual experience may find a long term partner and then feel the urge to "see what they are missing out on", and guys who have had heaps of experience may be reluctant to settle down because they KNOW what they are missing out on! LOL (And it is no different for women either).

I think if you find someone you really love and want to settle down with, monogamy will come naturally...regardless of your previous sexual experiences.
-----------------------------------

PS....PHILLIP! COME BACK HONEY!!! We miss you

[Rubber Nursey]

Ello!

Fedup...welcome back honey. Hope you had a great vacation.
Terry and Paddy...thanks for the sweet stuff you said to me in your posts a while back.

Paddy,
I don't think you need any help from me regarding your friend from Prague...not while Joe is around (or should that be Josephine??? LOL). Joe thinks more like a women that I do sometimes! He said pretty much everything I would have said, only he probably stated better than I would have (as usual). ;-)

re: "It's becoming apparent that seeing a SW outside of the typical encounter can be a bit more complicated. Special rules and sensitivities must be observed".
I don't think that's necessarily true. You don't need to walk on eggshells around her, or treat her any differently than you would any other girlfriend...you just need to clarify your relationship though first. You need to have a DMC and find out whether what you have is a sex worker/client thing or a "real" thing. I would presume from the way that she reacted to you giving her cash on this occasion, she probably wants you to be more than a client. But if you presume that and you are wrong, you may find she gets bitter about you trying getting "freebies" or feel uncomfortable requesting money after sex in the future. You need to be very clear on exactly what your relationship is, and if she tells you that it is "for real"...do NOT, under ANY circumstances, treat her like a hooker ever again from this day forward.

That can be done out of spite (eg. during an argument...which is reprehensible) or accidentally, as you discovered recently. What would you have done if your "normal" girlfriend had time off work and you thought she may be short on cash? You probably would have offered to pay her rent or give her shopping money or buy the kids something....maybe even suggested that she could BORROW money from you (and then never ask her to repay it if you would prefer). You wouldn't have offered to pay for her "services" though.

I know you did what you did out of the goodness of your heart ...and your genuine compassion is an honorable quality...but DON'T DO IT AGAIN! *slap* lol

[Fedup]

No... it was not a mongering vacation. I'm still seeing that gal from my past posts and don't feel it would be appropriate to go mongering while with her.

I'm also still of the opinion that a trip to Latin America would compromise my attitudes towards the girls here at home. Perhaps I'm being naive or stupid; but I'm still of the opinion that I can find a girl here who will satisfy my sexual appetite and provide me with the "couple" aspect of a relationship too.

It's an interesting question: Can I preserve my desire for finding a long term mate after enjoying the sexual pleasures of a "hired" girl vacation?

Perhaps those of you who have gone through this can tell of your experience.

[Joe Zop]

Hmm, I agree and disagree. It depends on mood. Sometimes you just want to get your rocks off in the most raunchy experience possible, and walk away unstressed, relieved, and unfettered, and sometimes it's about an intimate experience that involved a sense of affection, attention to the exploration and pushing of the buttons of the body and mind, and something that's slightly different than animal passion.

Hooray for both, say I, and utter worship and multiple academy awards and orgasms for the provider who can effortlessly read her client's mood and desires and switch accordingly.

And I'm sure RN, as with many other providers, could easily provide us with examples where plain ol' sex is the least part of the equation.

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by Fedup Someone mentioned the emotions of going to a sex worker a while ago. I wouldn't go to a SW for some cuddling and affection... I'll go for a quick pop of my rocks (temporary satisfaction) with a girl I wouldn't normally be able to pull. For me cuddling and popping are two exclusive concepts (which sometimes occur at the same time obviously)... sometimes a fuck is just a fuck. Paying someone to fake intimacy with me would be nothing more than an expensive, quickly forgotten illusion.

Precisely, FU, and welcome back. You know one thing I like about condoms? They level the playing field by allowing the man to fake orgasm as well. This can be a huge "face saver" at times. Well, I guess condoms could be "face savers" from the female point as well!

So was this a hobbying vacation and will there be a trip report? Just curious as I will probably be marooned in the US until January.

DH