The Morality of Prostitution

[Rubber Nursey]

Yeah no shit, some fucking sexual revolution. Now men have the blocks put to them the same as women do. WTF is all that fucking bullshit about.

Pathetic, isn't it. Instead of giving sexual equality to women, we're dragging men back down to our level.

Mind you, that's just one part of an overall backward shift in personal freedoms, across the board. We're seeing worldwide backflips on prostitution, pornography, condom promotion, sexual health education, contraception, abortion, HIV criminalisation, illicit drugs, gay rights, alcohol and cigarettes, no-fault divorce. We've got doctors promoting abstinence, governments funding "Christian Values" education in schools, feminists and organised religion joining forces against the sex industry.

It's an age-old political (and military) tactic to control the masses. Deprive them of physical/social release; make them stressed, downtrodden and needy; then fill the void with fear and loathing of a common enemy.

[Praj4]

I was in Grand Rapids MI for a evening and I called an escort for an outcall at my room in hotel based on advt in yellow pages; viz. girlfriend experience, and LO; a mother of one kid with lot of stretch matrks visited my room. She was half arab though american by birth. As usual we have to pay upfront which I did. After some time she said she forgot condoms, which I had to produce from my stock; again after some time she said she has to get her bag from car from parking lot of hotel. And before I could protest or argue, she dressed and went leaving only her socks as if enough colateral; never to return. Senior mongers, pl advise how would you manage such situations? This is my first experience of Major CHEATING / Fraud Be carefule of this half Arab girl, its the pressure of motherhood probably makes her so mean minded and cheat and not her ethnicity

[Bango Cheito]

I keep hearing this from men and I'm gonna say something that many of you aren't gonna take kindly to...women have been dealing with that shit for centuries. Female desire has traditionally been condemned, stifled, feared, even criminalised, and sexual double standards are just as entrenched in our culture today as they ever were. Women have always been made to feel guilty and ashamed of our lust (or deny it exists at all). We have always had to make a choice between sexual gratification and social acceptance. That is our reality. And now, I guess it's yours, too.

Yeah no shit, some fucking sexual revolution. Now men have the blocks put to them the same as women do. WTF is all that fucking bullshit about.

I feel the same way, I will NOT bow down or apologize to ANYBODY for having had a lot of sexual partners. I'm fucking PROUD of it :S

[Gentleman Travel]

I keep hearing this from men and I'm gonna say something that many of you aren't gonna take kindly to... Sex is natural, healthy, fulfilling and fun. I've had a whole lot of enjoyable sex in my lifetime and I flatly refuse to feel guilty about that. You shouldn't, either. Don't allow other people to dump their shame and insecurities on your shoulders.

Actually, I DO take kindly to this statement and wish it was printed on the cover of every women's self-help magazine out there.

But I hope you will not be offended if I still don't see Eleanor Roosevelt as my ideal sex kitten plaything, no matter how clever and witty she was...

[Rubber Nursey]

But USA males are encouraged, rather demanded, to "feel guilty" about anything whatsoever that has to do with "our lusts". At least the modern rhetoric leaves out "sinful".

I keep hearing this from men and I'm gonna say something that many of you aren't gonna take kindly to...women have been dealing with that shit for centuries. Female desire has traditionally been condemned, stifled, feared, even criminalised, and sexual double standards are just as entrenched in our culture today as they ever were. Women have always been made to feel guilty and ashamed of our lust (or deny it exists at all). We have always had to make a choice between sexual gratification and social acceptance. That is our reality. And now, I guess it's yours, too.

One of my favourite quotes from Eleanor Roosevelt:
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".

Sex is natural, healthy, fulfilling and fun. I've had a whole lot of enjoyable sex in my lifetime and I flatly refuse to feel guilty about that. You shouldn't, either. Don't allow other people to dump their shame and insecurities on your shoulders.

Another quote from Eleanor Roosevelt:
"The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience".

[Westy]

Subsidising? You're not subsidising anything. You're buying a service and paying her wages/commission/fees for that service.

Moral of the story: Sex workers sell sex and they do it to support themselves financially. (If they were just doing it for fun, they wouldn't charge for it). You, as clients, are paying their wages. Why should you feel guilty about that?

Thank you, RN; as of now I see your point perfectly. "Supporting" or "helping out" or even "subsidising" wouldn't apply to P4P as much as it does to the "Western Union romance" situation that all too many guys have running with their Asian girlfriends.

Actually, I'm sure you could see this as more a rhetorical question than a practical one. But USA males are encouraged, rather demanded, to "feel guilty" about anything whatsoever that has to do with "our lusts". At least the modern rhetoric leaves out "sinful".

[Rubber Nursey]

am i exploiting a woman or subsidizing her when i pay her for sex?

subsidising? you're not subsidising anything. you're buying a service and paying her wages/commission/fees for that service.

i know that sounds like i'm just being pedantic, but the language we use around prostitution often feeds into the myths and stereotypes of what sex work really is. when clients say they are "subsidising" sex workers, or "supporting" them, or "helping them out" with a "bit of extra spending money", it makes it sound like something other than an income-generating occupation.

you can (hopefully!) see what i mean when you exchange sex worker with different occupations in your quote:
"am i exploiting a chef or subsidising her when i pay for a meal"?
"am i exploiting a lawyer or subsidising her when i pay her for legal advice"?

sure, a sex worker may be subsidising her regular income with part-time sex work...but that's very different to the idea of you subsidising her. you are paying her for a service. what percentage your payment contributes to her total income is none of your concern.

and, of course, many sex workers don't consider what they do to be a legitimate 'occupation'. that's not what i'm trying to say with this post. my point is that clients are not benevolent benefactors helping a young woman out of a tight spot - you are simply buyers, purchasing a product/service from a seller on the open market. every sex worker, regardless of whether they're a career wh*re or a struggling teen having sex for survival, is engaging in sex work for the same reasons that anyone engages in paid employment. every act of consensual commercial sex, regardless of personal motivations, is a job.

the same goes for other language around sex work that implies abuse or ownership or lack of personal agency. for example, people say they "purchase prostitutes", but they don't say they "purchase doctors". sex workers are defined as people who "sell their bodies", but massage therapists, catalogue models, labourers, etc aren't. (i mean, really...who doesn't use their body in their day-to-day employment?) to paraphrase a famous sex worker activist, "they say i'm selling my body, but i still have all the parts i started with".

i guess we could be really crass and say we "rent access" to sex workers' bodies, but that sounds a lot like necrophilia to me. do you guys pay sex workers to make their orifices available to you, or do you generally expect some kind of affection/noise/sexual response/conversation/etc as well? in which case, you are paying for an entire service, not just access to a vagina/mouth/anus.

moral of the story: sex workers sell sex and they do it to support themselves financially. (if they were just doing it for fun, they wouldn't charge for it). you, as clients, are paying their wages. why should you feel guilty about that?

[Westy]

I'm re-reading E.E. Schumacher's Small Is Beautiful and I happened across a notation I'd made several years ago - it seems cogent to this thread:

Am I exploiting a woman or subsidizing her when I pay her for sex?

[Gentleman Travel]

Please forgive the barrage of articles on the court challenge to Canadian prostitution laws. But it has produced a number of news and opinion stories that deal with issues relevant to the overall debate in many countries....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1735817/

"In 1999, Sweden took a pioneering approach: Rather than punish those who are sold for sex, the country holds the purchasers of sex acts liable. Without demand, there would be no sex trafficking and prostitution. "

This commentator, a university professor, advocates Swedish-style punishments for johns, without making the case that prostitution ought to be illegal (which it isn't in Canada). Notice the terminology used throughout the article - "those who are sold for sex". Never is it allowed that they are willing vendors or intelligent human beings making choices.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...n-laws-100929/

"Ron Marzel, one of the lawyers for the women who challenged the laws, says he was "thrilled" with Tuesday's decision which he says will protect sex workers, who should have the right to practise their profession safely.

"Certainly, we need social programs to make sure that children in the profession; however, the reality is there are consenting adults who want to go into this profession," he said on Canada AM.

"Falle [a former prostitute who now runs a gov't funded rescue centre for streetworkers] grew incensed at this, insisting that 97 per cent of prostitutes aren't in the sex trade by choice. She says the voices of the overwhelming majority of women who want to get out of prostitution are being drowned out by a vocal few."

So according to Falle, 97% of prostitutes are doing this against their will!!!
Mind you, even she doesn't pretend that they are all being coerced, only that they are not doing it by "choice". Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by choice. Personally, I would prefer not to be doing my current job either, but I keep doing it because my other options are less appealing (not working, less money, letting my family down), but I am not being coerced, and not in need of rescuing. Neither are most hookers.

Of course the reporters covering this story are out there talking to street hookers, who by and large are a sorry lot in this country - and I guess a lot of them have drug problems and perhaps few alternatives. But check out Craigslist girls and escort services and you meet a lot of women who chose sex work positively. They are college students or have other jobs and do this for the extra money. Would they rather be doing something other than fucking and sucking strangers for money? Probably, but not so much as they want nice clothes, a decent apartment or provide their kids with a certain lifestyle. Put in a law that makes them go back to working at McDonald's or as a waitress and none of them will thank you for it!

[Gentleman Travel]

This just in ... not that P4P was a problem in Canada before, but now it is open season...


********** news story ***************
A ruling by the Ontario's Superior Court of Justice said the laws against keeping a common bawdy house, communicating for the purposes of prostitution and living on the avails of the trade "are not in accord with the principles of fundamental justice."

"These laws, individually and together, force prostitutes to choose between their liberty interest and their right to security of the person as protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms," Justice Susan Himel wrote her in 131-page decision which struck down those provisions.

"I find that the danger faced by prostitutes greatly outweighs any harm which may be faced by the public."

Dominatrix Terri-Jean Bedford and two other sex-trade workers went to Ontario's Superior Court of Justice to ask the court to rule on the Criminal Code laws relating to prostitution.

In an afternoon press conference Bedford said Tuesday was like emancipation day for sex-trade workers.

She said it is now up to Prime Minister Stephen Harper to deal with the situation.

In her ruling, Himel said Parliament had to "fashion corrective action" to put new laws in place.

"It is my view that in the meantime these unconstitutional provisions should be of no force and effect, particularly given the seriousness of the charter violations," Himel wrote.

"However, I also recognize that a consequence of this decision may be that unlicensed brothels may be operated, and in a way that may not be in the public interest."

The government argued removing the prohibitions without replacing them with new laws would "pose a danger to the public."

The decision is subjected to a 30-day stay and the federal government can seek an extension of that period.

The struck-down provisions deal with adult prostitution. Prostitution laws dealing with those under the age of 18 remain unaffected.

Prostitution is not illegal in Canada, but nearly everything related to it is.

The federal government has argued that prostitution is inherently dangerous, no matter where it is carried out.

It also argued that striking down the laws would make Canada a sex tourism destination.

The Christian Legal Fellowship, which was granted intervenor status, argued that prostitution "offends the conscience of ordinary Canadians."

With files from The Canadian Press

[Ryo Saeba]

hi, ryo

i'm not sure exactly what you mean by prostitution being "generally accepted as a fact of life" in oriental cultures. socially? legally? traditionally?

hi rn,

i may not have chosen the correct words to express my thought, so i'll proceed by examples:

in japan and hong kong, after long business meetings and to celebrate deals, it has long been tradition to take customers to a "karaoke" or for a "massage".

women know about that. they may decide to believe their own husband doesn't indulge in prostitution, but they do know for a fact that the great majority of men does.

the same now happens in china and in most other south-east asian countries.

in thailand everyone knows what's going on, and apparently women take for granted that their men will have sex with other women, so better a prostitute than a possible "regular" rival. they also believe that prostitution helps prevent [CodeWord124].

also i believe that in buddhism it's ok to pay women for sex.

yes, i know we cannot control who writes in here. but maybe we could invite someone?

in the thailand forum, in the "massage parlours – annies only" thread, aey (who is the mamasan for that establishment) contributes fairly regurarly and her english is up to the task. if anyone from here is a regular there he may ask her to join.

just an example.

ryo

[Rubber Nursey]

To begin with, I'd like to be provocative and ask you this question: it would seem we have no born and bred Asian mongers actively involved in this thread (or at least none I could detect), yet it is in the various oriental cultures that prostitution is more generally accepted as a fact of life. Does it make sense to discuss this subject without their point of view? When I consider how much the input of Rubber Nursey is important to our musings, I can't help but wonder if by missing different perspectives we miss key factors in the equation.

Hi, Ryo

I very much doubt that my input is important to anyone! Mine is just another point of view amongst many, but I guess I stand out as the only regular female poster. It would be nice if there were a few more women around and I absolutely agree with what you said about including the experiences of people from diverse cultures. Unfortunately, we can't control who pops their head into the Opinions threads and the majority of contributors over the years have been from 'Western' countries.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by prostitution being "generally accepted as a fact of life" in oriental cultures. Socially? Legally? Traditionally?

[Goga Fung]

To begin with, I'd like to be provocative and ask you this question: it would seem we have no born and bred Asian mongers actively involved in this thread (or at least none I could detect), yet it is in the various oriental cultures that prostitution is more generally accepted as a fact of life. Does it make sense to discuss this subject without their point of view? When I consider how much the input of Rubber Nursey is important to our musings, I can't help but wonder if by missing different perspectives we miss key factors in the equation.

Ryo

In some Asian/Muslim cultures when a woman is getting married, the husband's family is required to pay money/gifts, etcc. To the bride's family. In many cases the bride does not have much choice. If her parents think the fiancee is good for her, and if he provide enough money/gifts, comes from a good family then they will allow marriage. And the "love" will come with time.

In a way it can be looked as some form of "prostitution". Maybe one-time "sale". Which is supposed to secure the woman's well being.

"regular" prostitution is pretty much the same, but it is multiple time sale, so that is is considered immoral.

[Ryo Saeba]

Hello, everyone.

Most people writing here have been doing so for quite a while and are limited in number, as this thread doesn't attract a lot of new posters as far as I can tell. Also most of you have at some point outlined a few details of your lives and how you came to pay for sex, so I guess before I even write anything I should introduce myself to offer a field of reference for my ideas and opinions.

I'm in my early thirties, I grew up in a middle-class European family. When it comes to women, I had always been doing ok, as in more than the average guy but not nearly as much and as quality as I would have liked to. Then one day I started reading books about self improvement and male and female psychology. The results were quite impressive, as I developed a self confidence and an understanding of people which allowed me to have serious success with women. And it was back then (we're talking less than 4 years ago), that I started mongering. Exactly when I got to a point where I wasn't worried about "getting pussy" anymore, I decided it was ok to pay for it.

I never use prostitutes where I live, but I would not consider a holiday or even a weekend break that didn't offer the possibility of mongering.

So, the reason why I'm joining the ongoing discussion here is that would like to understand if:

A- I am really convinced that, within the boundaries of my own set of values, prostitution is moral

Or if

B- I'm trying hard to convince myself that it's ok because I enjoy it so much, but in reality deep down I think it's not.

To begin with, I'd like to be provocative and ask you this question: it would seem we have no born and bred Asian mongers actively involved in this thread (or at least none I could detect), yet it is in the various oriental cultures that prostitution is more generally accepted as a fact of life. Does it make sense to discuss this subject without their point of view? When I consider how much the input of Rubber Nursey is important to our musings, I can't help but wonder if by missing different perspectives we miss key factors in the equation.

Ryo

[Bango Cheito]

"Normal" women I think are offended so much by sex workers because they know deep down somewhere how much better they must be in the sack, and also because they are doing in the open what most women WISH they could be doing but don't have the guts!