The Morality of Prostitution

[George90]

Excellent post, Opebo.

[Dodger Bulldog]

At least here is one good thing the U.S. did for Iraq! An article from msnbc.com: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16717237/

Temporary 'enjoyment marriages' back in Iraq
Banned under Saddam Hussein, some say they are cover for prostitution

By Nancy Trejos
Washington Post Staff Writer

Updated: 1:03 a.m. ET Jan 20, 2007


BAGHDAD — Fatima Ali was a 24-year-old divorcee with no high school diploma and no job. Shawket al-Rubae was a 34-year-old Shiite sheik with a pregnant wife who, he said, could not have sex with him.

Ali wanted someone to take care of her. Rubae wanted a companion.

They met one afternoon in May at the house he shares with his wife, in the room where he accepts visitors seeking his religious counsel. He had a proposal. Would Ali be his temporary wife? He would pay her 5,000 Iraqi dinars upfront — about $4 — in addition to her monthly expenses. About twice a week over the next eight months, he would summon her to a house he would rent.

The negotiations took an hour and ended with an unwritten agreement, the couple recalled. Thus began their "mutaa," or enjoyment marriage, a temporary union believed by Shiite Muslims to be sanctioned by Islamic law.

The Shiite practice began 1,400 years ago, in what is now Iraq and other parts of the region, as a way to provide for war widows. Banned by President Saddam Hussein's Sunni-led government, it has regained popularity since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq brought the majority Shiites to power, said clerics, women's rights activists and mutaa spouses.

"During Saddam's time, there was no religious freedom," said Faris al-Shareef, a sheik who lives in the mainly Shiite city of Hilla.

Opponents of mutaa, most of them Sunni Arabs, say it is less about religious freedom and more about economic exploitation. Thousands of men are dying in the sectarian violence that has followed the invasion, leaving behind widows who must fend for themselves. Many young men are out of work and prefer temporary over permanent wives who require long-term financial commitments. In a mutaa arrangement, the woman is entitled to payment only for the duration of the marriage.

'A cover for prostitution'
"It's a cover for prostitution," said Um Akram, a women's rights activist in Baghdad. "Some women, because they don't want to be prostitutes, they think that this is legal because it's got some kind of religious cover. But it is wrong, and they're still prostitutes from the society's point of view." Um Akram, like the mutaa spouses interviewed, asked that only parts of her name be published.

Many intellectuals consider ancient traditions such as these an obstacle to Iraq's effort to become a more modern, democratic society. In recent years, extremist religious groups have gained more power in Iraq.

"These steps are taking the whole country backwards and are definitely hurdles to the advancement of the country," said Hamdia Ahmed, a former member of parliament and a women's rights activist in Baghdad. "The only solution is to separate Islam from politics."

Shiite clerics and others who practice mutaa say such marriages are keeping young women from having unwed sex and widowed or divorced women from resorting to prostitution to make money.

They say a mutaa marriage is not much different from a traditional marriage in which the husband pays the wife's family a dowry and provides for her financially.

"It was designed as a humanitarian help for women," said Mahdi al-Shog, a Shiite cleric.

According to Shiite religious law, a mutaa relationship can last for a few minutes or several years. A man can have an unlimited number of mutaa wives and a permanent wife at the same time. A woman can have only one husband at a time, permanent or temporary. No written contract or official ceremony is required in a mutaa. When the time limit ends, the man and woman go their separate ways with none of the messiness of a regular divorce.

Temporary arrangements
Although the temporary arrangements are becoming more common, they are still controversial, and people usually conduct them secretly.

Ali had a normal marriage once. It lasted only three months because the couple did not get along. Her chances for another permanent marriage, she said, were slim. Men often prefer virgins over widows and divorced women, she said.

She welcomed Rubae's proposal because he was a well-known sheik in her neighborhood. Her family was fond of him. "He was a good guy, and he was a religious man," she said.

Rubae had been in 15 mutaa marriages before. A year ago he entered into a permanent marriage with a woman who had been his mutaa wife for a day. When she became pregnant eight months ago, she suggested he take a temporary wife but asked him not to tell her if he did. She does not know about his involvement with Ali.

"As a pregnant woman, she cannot give me my needs," Rubae said. "She treats me real good and she wants me to be happy."

He chose Ali partly because her blond hair, light brown eyes and petite figure had always attracted him. "When she puts makeup on, it destroys her beauty," he said.

He also liked that she was religiously devout, and he said he wanted to keep her from a relationship outside of marriage.

Ali didn't think of him in a romantic way at first. "After we got married, I started loving him," she said.

Money tight
The money he gave her helped. Her father owns a bakery but money has always been tight, so much so that she had to end her education after elementary school. But money wasn't her only reason for entering the enjoyment marriage. "I have needs just like any other woman," she said.

Both Shiite and Sunni Muslims allow men to have more than one permanent wife, but they disagree over mutaa.

Most Shiites believe that the prophet Muhammad encouraged the practice as a way to give widows an income. Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, Iraq's most revered Shiite cleric, has sanctioned it and offers advice on his Web site.

Um Ahmed, a 28-year-old woman from Najaf, lost her husband in 2005 when he was caught in the crossfire of a fight between two Shiite militias.

Soon after his death, she had her first mutaa relationship, with a man who was in a permanent marriage. He paid her 50,000 Iraqi dinars upfront -- or $38 -- and gave her money whenever she needed it during their six-month relationship.

She said she needed it often. She is a tailor and the only one in her family of 10 who works.

"When a human being needs money, the need will make a person do anything," she said. "It's better than doing the wrong things. This is religiously accepted."

Many Sunnis believe that the practice is outdated and ripe for abuse. They also see it as more evidence of Iranian influence on Iraqi life. Mutaa is widespread in Iran's Shiite theocratic state.

'Big insult to women'
"It is a big insult to women," said Ibtsam Z. Alsha, a Sunni lawyer and the head of the organization Women for the Common Good of Women.

Women's rights activists also bemoan what they say is an increase in mutaa on college campuses. Some female students do it for money. Others do it for love when their parents forbid them to marry a man from another sect.

Amani, a 22-year-old Baghdad University engineering student, said she is a Sunni but agreed to enter into a mutaa relationship with her Shiite boyfriend because her parents disapproved of him. "I hated my family because they did not allow this marriage," she said. "I did this to spite my family."

Still, she has not told them about the relationship. "If they find out, it will be my end," she said.

A woman cannot terminate a temporary marriage before it expires unless the man agrees, said four sheiks interviewed for this article.

Once the marriage is over, she has to wait at least two menstrual cycles before she can have another relationship so that paternity can be easily determined if she becomes pregnant, they said.

Most mutaa contracts stipulate that no children be produced. If a woman were to become pregnant anyway, Islamic law would require the man to support the child, the sheiks said. But the clerics disagreed over how much power they have to impose that rule.

Rubae said the man who refuses his child would be whipped or even killed. "We as the sheiks should be sure this thing will stay legitimate," he said.

Rules enforcement
Shareef, the sheik from Hilla, said some men take advantage of their rights under religious law but refuse to accept their responsibility when a child is born. In some of those cases, he said, a sharia court, using Islamic law, is not as effective as a secular court in enforcing the rules.

"I am supporting the idea of the government regulating mutaa marriages, just like the permanent marriages, so these man cannot run away," he said. "Otherwise the women are losing their rights."

Um Akram, the women's rights activist in Baghdad, said more women are asking her organization for help in getting national identification cards for children born of mutaa relationships. Parents must present a marriage certificate to obtain the identification cards, which are required by schools and employers.

Um Akram said some single women have given up their children for adoption to married couples who can use their marriage certificates to register them.

"The men just hit and run, and they don't want to have a family," she said. "The children are paying the price."

Ali and Rubae agreed not to have children. They simply wanted to enjoy each other.

On the days he could see her, he gave her flowers, perfume, clothing and a watch. They had meals together. Sometimes he could spend the whole day with her. Other times, just five or six hours.

Ali said she cried when the marriage ended early last week. "It's just like a permanent marriage," she said. "When he leaves, I become sad."

Her sorrow did not last long. Rubae said Jan. 12 that he had decided to marry her again. This time, he said, he would marry her for a year, enough time for his wife to fully recover from childbirth.

[Opebo]

I actually thing the Beach Road Pattaya lowland clearances are good as it means there will be bargains and desperate women to be had.

No, the clearance has eliminated the bargains, Billy. Before one could go get laid well for 300 baht at any time of the day or night. Now, no.

We do not trust all ordinary women but we try to find the one, special one, our Holy Grail. Bottom feeders are not it.

They are most definitely it, collectively, Billy. Enjoying prostitutes eliminates the need for that ridiculous delusion (Madonna complex) you seek. All women are prostitutes, and there is nothing 'wrong' with that. And yes, they all have '[CodeWord140] flaps', Billy.

[Billy Ibrox]

o****: of course i come in hookers. but i wear a condom as i can do without their diseases. they are simply something to jerk off into, a cheap form of transitory entertainment. i cum, they go, very simple. i care nothing about them, except that they open their [CodeWord140] flaps, their arse or their mouth, wherever i choose to put my dick. if we cold clone hookers, there might be a good market there but for now, we use human zombies to deposit our sperm with no emotional complications. we can compare hookers to many things like urinals, spittoons, waste/sperm disposal units. though slightly inaccurate (just as a horse is not quite a zebra and a hooker is not just a spittoon), comparing them so lets us keep them in perspective. the ones to be pitied and maybe even feared (by the cock suckers) are the nice guys who worship tjem today and kill them tomorrow. i beleive prostitutes sell sex and after we buy, it is time to do something better like play gold, work out in the gym, dive, go drinking, stuff normal people not hookers do.

i actually thing the beach road pattaya lowland clearances are good as it means there will be bargains and desperate women to be had. it’s one way to save on toilet paper anyway.

you speak about prudery and morality but you presume to lecture me. you appear to be the prude, not me and your alleged barebacking is just you in denial of your own prudish upbringing.

instead of calling you immature, i would just draw your attention to your last paragraph. (read my latest on the aw section) we do not trust all ordinary women but we try to find the one, special one, our holy grail. bottom feeders are not it.

[Opebo]

You are talking in circles whether you know it or not. Most women, and men, do not become prostitutes because they know, intuitively or by observing, that it is pretty much the bottom of the barrel.

No, Billy, people do or do not become prostitutes (or any other kind of worker, I. E. Powerless person) by processes beyond their control. The illusion of individual volition is a type of hubris in workers such as yourself that is very useful for your owners.

Prostitutes are bottom of the shit heap, partoicularly in Thailand and the prostitutes know that as well. I pay them to suck my cock and eat my arse, and then to leave. There is no love or hate in it, just as there is no love or hate for any other spittoon or a urinal.

This segment of your posting reveals only your negative and prudish attitude towards your own sexuality. You see sex acts as comparable to urination or expectoration. Some of us see them quite differently. Certainly I consider sex one of the most pleasurable and important aspects of life, not unlike a fine meal. You seem to see sex an unpleasant inconvenience like elimination. One wonders if you eat at McDonalds.

That said, according to you, you do not actually ejaculate inside your service providers, and thus the spittoon and urinal analogies are technically inaccurate. I do ejaculate inside, but find those analogies poor as coming inside a woman is profoundly satisfying.

All prostitutes are bottom feeders. The people you should feel sorry for are those who entertain delusions about these creatures.

They should not be regarded as ordinary women. Never trust them for a single minute.

Billy, are you telling us that you trust 'ordinary women'? That certainly seems more deluded than our empathy for the prostitute. The only difference between the prostitute and the ordinary woman is the price, and I can assure you I appreciate the one who offers the better deal.

[Randy Man]

Why don't the younger women get regulars? Well some do - I see women of all ages (18 up to 40s), and have been a "regular" with many across that range. I suspect that the reason the younger ones get less regulars is that they are more interested in themselves and their very narrow range of interests, and sexually they just aren't as experienced. Older women are more adept at feigning interest in the client, are more focused on pleasing him rather than playing at being a starfish, and can hide their disdain better. I believe many men see the women for far more than sex, especially those men who become "regulars". Personally I like to develop a rapport with the women which could be likened to friendship, which a few cases has developed into real friendship - identifiable when you just meet up for a coffee or to socialise without sex or money being involved, or have sex without money being involved.

[Billy Ibrox]

o****,

you are talking in circles whether you know it or not. most women, and men, do not become prostitutes because they know, intuitively or by observing, that it is pretty much the bottom of the barrel. prostitutes are bottom of the shit heap, partoicularly in thailand and the prostitutes know that as well. i pay them to suck my cock and eat my arse, and then to leave. there is no love or hate in it, just as there is no love or hate for any other spittoon or a urinal.

[Opebo]

Lazzaro, ignorance has nothing to do with a difference of taste.

[Lazzaro]

Oh my god,
Can people really as be stupid as this Opebo appears, somehow I think he says it all to inflame.
Well it works.

Dearest Sasha

if don't know how stupid people could be, please see these (Malaysia/Photo gallery thread):
starting tread (pls see the photos);
my answer;
his 1st reply
his final reply

...and (maybe) you've an idea how much ignorance is still of this world (ignorance or eyes closed?)

Cheer

[Sasha Coffee]

I have read many of your posts and I don't agree with most of them.

But congratulations of your precise and correct assumptions of Billy's post.

[Opebo]

Prostitutes are the bottom of the human barrel. We rent them to abuse them and then dispose of them.

Hopefully, Billy, you realize that 'the human barrel' is a heirarchy imposed by force, and that one's position in same in no way reflects on one personally. For example, you are also a prostitute, going to work every day and metaphorically sucking your boss's cock. (That is unless you are of the owning class, for which this whole sad charnel house is run - if so I apologize, but some how I doubt it).

There is nothing worse than a babbling sex toy.

Nor anything more pathetic than a worker filled with hubris who holds himself above his brothers (or sisters), because of sexual prudery.

So some who ppen their [CodeWord140] flaps and drink sperm for an easy living are human and those of us who pay taxes and are not junkies are not?

You are all obviously precisely the same, Billy. Any small distinctions are deceptive - part of the propaganda that keeps gullible white male workers like yourself supporting a system that keeps you on your knees along with the non-whites, females, and others you despise.

Their opinions are as worthless as themselves. Just think what any self respecing Thai, the shop and hotel assistants included, thinks of your companion.

I consider opinions, like all ideas, on their own merits, Billy, and not based on the source. For example, your hatred of prostitutes seems unreasonable. I know why 'self respecting Thais' hate them - because they sell something cheaply (sex) that 'respectable women' are trying to get a high price for (monogamy). Naturally my favorite people, and most particularly my favorite women, are prostitutes. Remember, Billy, just because you are being charged more for something doesn't mean it is 'better'.

To me, the idea of having a prostitute as a friend is more bizzarre than anything I will pay them to do.

You do have a point here, Billy - the very act of paid employment brings to bear all the brutality of the social heirarchy. In the same way you can never be friends with your owner.

But do you really think they admire a sucker who treats and pay them better than the ordinary had working women of Pattaya, who work 7 days a week in stores etc. They are the ones deserve the bulk of your money. The others are only good for jerking off on.

You make a foolish distinction here Billy, based on nothing but your own prudery. These women are workers, just like you, and just like their sisters in the shops, etc. You are all on your knees, and believing you are better than another one because of a particular skill you may have, or because of some curious detail of their work, merely plays into the hands of those who own you all.

[Mike Del]

Sasha - I think Einstein said something like "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

And before anyone gets any ideas, it applies to all of us - we've all been stupid before and no doubt we will do some stupid things in future. It's a question of degree, however....

[Sasha Coffee]

Oh my god,

Can people really as be stupid as this Opebo appears, somehow I think he says it all to inflame.

Well it works.

[Petemcc]

Thanks for your input.

Hopefully you don't go bareback. That would be a little silly, yes to 1 client is yes to many clients.

I suppose you are right there is a certain amount of getting little perks when you are a girls regular client. For me personally thats about trust and respect more than keeping the client. For me its never bareback, it normally involves extra time at no cost (not that I take any notice of time anyway) a more relaxed service (GFE for lack of better words).

A regular client will also learn more about me, what turns me on sexually and more about me personally, my hobbies, likes, interests, lifestyle etc.

Thats just what happens when you get to know someone. Client or not.

Your PM doesn't work. Have a look at the Safe Sex in Thailand Forum!!!

[Bango Cheito]

As a client I would let a girl do BBBJ on me, but I wouldn't force the issue and it's not something I actively seek. But since it's not very high-risk for me I wouldn't worry about it either.

If I were a WG I'd want to use condoms for sex AND BJs, because the reverse is VERY FAR from true and a girl can catch a lot from a guy that way. If I REALLY trusted a guy and knew him for a long time I may do it but I'd swallow, never spit or keep it in the mouth for any reason.

I find WGs are usually good enough at sucking dick that you can have a condom on and it still feels just fine. An ordinary woman generally can't perform to that level, but with a WG it's no problem.