The Morality of Prostitution

[Domino]

Ludo: Thank you for this link. The BBC's news page http://news.bbc.co.uk/ has a not very informative short video on [CodeWord908] from Moldova. Some information on those orgnizations would be interesting. For example, I would bet that most women from Moldova who go overseas do not go into prostitution. I would also bet that a huge amount of Third World hookers are terrified about ending up chained in a brothel in Italy or somewhere else. The Lonely Planet guidebooks are full of all this responsible tourism stuff and their tour books moralize endlessly about the sex trade instead of concentrating on giving good, sound (non sexual) touring advice.

Morality is a strange thing and while I would have no problems with people opposed to the skin trade, I somehow smell a well subsidized rat with many of these outfits. I am sure many of them are part of the poverty industry, along with AIDS outfits and disaster relief outfits. Greenpeace would be a similar bait and switch outfit: most of their expenses go on overheads.

[Ludovico]

If there's anyone out there who needs some information on this topic then check out http://www.catwinternational.org/fb/index.html#ab
They seem to have collated alot of information from lots of sources. Personally I only use it to find out where I want to go next.

[Hat Trick]

Hey, what happened to this thread?

Is it shut down to any more posts?

Testing.

Hello?

[Cash Works]

B.L.,

I agree with most of what you wrote, but think you may have left out a few things.

In the paragraph where you start off asking why a woman would choose to become a prostitute, you conclude it's merely for the money. You forgot to mention that in most of the low paying jobs you listed, she would be supervised by men who would be demanding sexual favors from her in order for her to keep her low paying job. So, it makes sense for here to go pro, make more money and cut out the drudgery of the low paying job.

Your first rule:

"1. I will not use my economic advantage to abuse children. I will never knowingly have sex with a child under the age of consent in her country."

Should include not having sex with a child under the age of consent in your own country as well as her country. Many countries are passing laws that allow them to prosecute citizens who travel to foreign countries for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with minors (minors as defined by the country of origin, not the destination country where the act may have been performed).

Better yet, rule number one should read:

"I will never knowingly have sex with a woman under the age of 18."

That should satisfy most, if not all age of consent laws around the world and it would also conform with WSG Forums posting guidelines - No sex with Minors where minors are defined as anyone under the age of 18.

There was a discussion some time ago where one poster pointed out that in some countries where prostitution is legal and the age of consent is below 18, prostitutes must be at least 18.

CW

[Blind Lust]

Poverty, Perversion and Prostitutes - A Different Perspective

As a U.S. citizen living in the United States, I have few legal opportunities to enjoy the hobby, and those (in the state of Nevada) are very costly. The safest, most discreet extralegal play for pay is often too expensive; the cost-effective streetwalkers can hardly be considered safe and discreet, albeit relatively inexpensive. Most cities in the U.S. have successfully cracked down on massage places which offer sexual services for an additional "tip."

By my fourth trip to Amsterdam, I finally became emboldened enough to use the services of sex workers on three different occasions. Inexpensive by U.S. standards, I enjoyed play with three very lovely women, for a total cost of around US$400.00. My eyes were opened; for what I might have paid an escort for two hours in the U.S.A., I had enjoyed four hours with three different women. I was, you'll pardon the expression, hooked on legal play for pay. I was able to explain the expenditure to my wife by saying that I needed daily massage to relieve an orthopedic condition, made worse by too much walking on the uneven cobblestone streets of old Amsterdam. I'm not sure if my wife believed this, but she let it pass.

Now that the stock market has gone downhill, our discretionary budget has shrunk, and dollars for travel and sexual services are becoming increasingly hard to find.

This being the case, I began researching prostitution in Third World countries, particularly Mexico and Central America. Enticed by glowing reports on the WSG Forum, I began to research a trip in earnest. Beyond travel information, mongering reports and the like, I began to read extensively from governmental reports, human rights organization websites and the CiA World Book of Facts. What I discovered has led me to ponder poverty and prostitution, and to come to a moral stance on the issue.

From the wealthiest nation in Central America (Panama) to the poorest (Honduras), numerous impoverished women turn to prostitution to survive in some cases, and to improve their lives through increased consumer power above and beyond survival for others. Most of the women involved in the sex trade are adults who appear to have freely chosen this career path , most of them only work as prostitutes for a short while.

Why would a woman "degrade" herself and sell her body? For one reason, and one reason only. Compared to women who share her age group and education, she will earn four times as much per hour as factory workers, domestic servants, agricultural workers or even other skilled service professions, such as hair stylists. She will be able to earn this income doing something which is considered natural and necessary for humans, something which she knows how to do well and which she may even enjoy. She will hone communication skills, perhaps even learning a second language in the process. She may even have the opportunity to meet and marry a wealthy man. In the end, she does it for the money.

Poverty is a complex issue, but I believe that those of us fortunate enough to live in a wealthier country owe the rest of the world a little help. Charities such as Jackson's Argentina Charity Fund to feed hungry children in Buenos Aires deserve our support. We have to do what we can.

Does this mean that we should feel guilty about poverty, and by extension for "taking advantage" of women in poorer countries for buying a precious service from them? I don't think so. Men who patronize prostitutes in these poorer countries are to a great degree helping people survive and even thrive. As the woman will earn a great deal of money relative to her local economy, as she is doing work that she has freely chosen, and as prices are a bargain by U.S. standards and the act legal, prostitution is a win-win situation for both provider and customer.

However, we must if we are humane and fair, need to adopt a "gentleman's code of honor" regarding mongering in the poorer nations of the world. I hope all who read this will adopt this code, or at least open a dialogue about it on this forum.

I am a gentleman player who holds these things to be part of my code of behavior and of honor.

1. I will not use my economic advantage to abuse children. I will never knowingly have sex with a child under the age of consent in her country.

2. I will not expose any sexual partner, personal or professional to risk of sexual disease or otherwise endanger her. I will practice safer sex at all times. Risk management shall be my responsibility.

3. I shall never strike a woman in rage.

4. I shall treat my sexual playmate as a friend with the respect and etiquette of a gentleman.

5. I shall negotiate price and service in a calm and friendly manner, but I shall be firm regarding cost. I will not undermine other hobbyists by overpaying for service. I acknowledge that even reasonable prices charged by local sex workers already earns them a superior income to other women of similar background, education and skills.

6. I shall not feel guilt. If I have treated the prostitute with respect and friendly gentility, if I have paid a fair price, if I have protected her and myself against sexually transmitted infection, then I have nothing about which to feel guilt. Both she and I have won the game.

7. I understand that the hobby brings with it certain dangers from crime, therefore I will watch the back of my fellow hobbyists, offer protection when possible, and always offer friendly support. We are a band of brothers and we shall care for our own.

8. I am discreet and do not discuss my exploits with others outside the hobby.

9. I expect my sexual playmates to be clean and attractive. I will keep myself fit and clean, groomed and sober enough to comport myself as a gentleman.

10. I know that life is brief. I intend to enjoy as much of it as I can. The pursuit of pleasure is a worthy pastime. I shall therefor try to maintain the demeanor of one who is thoroughly enjoying life with enthusiasm, passion and a lecherous grin.

[Joe Zop]

Point taken on the whole cruising aspect, Civ2000, but that's far from the only scenario available in P4P. Personally, I'd have no problem taking an appropriately-aged nephew to a legal bordello, as it would frankly be a better option than having him knock up some girlfriend just because he's desperate to get his rocks off. The problem, of course, is that legal bordellos are hard to come by in the USA, which says more about the country than prostitution itself.

And that's also a very good point on addict behavior -- a completely clean break, so one has the chance to solidly establish alternate habits and environment -- is usually best.

[Travis Bickle 2]

tang, i too wish you the best of luck in your new life. although i have no current plans to give up the hobby completely, i believe i will very soon. it just isn't as fun as it used to be. and although a lot of us defend the hobby, just how many of us would take our sons or nephews out cruising with us. would we really want a kid of ours to spend untold days and hours driving through seedy parts of town risking arrest, disease, and picking up sw's? i wouldn't. would any of you?

having worked in the addiction field myself i see you as the typical addict. the first thing most newly recovering addicts want to do is show their friends what they have and try to get them on board. it almost never works. more often than not they get the newly recovered addict to relapse. i admire what you are doing, but a newly recovering sex addict working with hookers is akin to an alcoholic leaving a treatment center and going to work in a bar. obviously you haven't sought counsel with the group members, a sponser, a therapist, pastor, or you would be advised just how bad of idea this is. you really can't help someone until you get healthy yourself and this doesn't happen in a couple of weeks from watching a movie.

i'm not trying to judge you but this is a great time to work on yourself. if you believe in the 12 steps then you should be working them instead of hanging with prostitutes. i know it's probably kind of exciting to see how close to the flame you can get without getting burnt but you're putting yourself at risk.

anyhow, best of luck to you. please pm me sometime, i wouldn't mind chatting with you some time.

onward and upward!

civ2000

[Pokey]

GT, Good for you! I too wish you well. Hopefully I'll follow your path in a few years. But for now I'll still troll the dark underworld of Mongerville, where I have lot of company, untill I can rid myself of this bad habit.

Actually, I'm doing pretty good. I no longer have any desire to pick up SG's. I used to beat up my car good, always needing new brakes and clutch's. I almost stopped going to MP's, but they are so cheap where I live, I can't help going once in a great while .( Asian women are my weakness)

I don't Monger outside of North America, if I go on vacation somewhere overseas, I don't look for pussy.( I try to keep away from the hot spots)

I do still go to TJ about once a month; I can't help that yet. I guess I make up for pent-up desires, because when I go like last week. I picked up two girls at once, then just before I was going home; I pickup up another Bargirl for the road. With Viagra, Cialis, having mutiple partners is easy and makes quiting even harder.

If you fall off the wagon, no problem just continue the life you want to lead and you'll be fine.

[Joe Zop]

I wish you the best of luck, GT, and bravo for your involvement in such programs. It sounds as though you feel you're turning your life around from a bad place, which is great for you.

But I'd like to point out that there is not some sort of either/or equation between being a monger and being a good and caring citizen. I've been heavily involved in volunteer work for thirty years, everything from manning suicide hotlines to working in places such as the one you describe to being part of the decision-making and fundraising efforts of national groups, in every capacity from ground level volunteer to board officer to executive director, with multiple stints in all such roles. That's been an integrated part of my life my entire adulthood, and I've seen a million zealous newcomers such as yourself breeze in, think they're going to change the world, lecture those of us who've been working in the trenches for years, and then burn out and blow out of the door as quickly as they walked in because they weren't getting out if it what they thought they would.

Twelve days is rather early to make a judgement about things, as the key will come after you've done it for some time and get a true sense of the degree your actions do and do not make a difference. Many volunteers get discouraged or burn out after realizing they're working with a lot of people who will not change or really be helped, or who will not follow through on their promises/intentions, or who are conning the agency to get what they want, etc. It can also be discouraging to realize that many clients will approach you as a mark to take advantage of. The key is to take great comfort in the few whose lives you might really help, because they are there and it's not always clear who they are, while understanding that you're not really fixing anything on a grand scale: you're collecting spare drops of rain to try to fill an ocean of need. You help a few individuals a great deal, others a little bit, and don't make a major impact of most -- that's the true reality of social work. When you can take that in, not take it personally while still caring as much as possible, and still come back for more, that's when you're walking the walk. Perhaps your new-found religious zeal will help carry you through all this -- I hope so -- but a solid sense of reality and the ability to understand just where you're fitting in the big social picture doesn't hurt either.

A couple of points -- first, because the clients of the place you're volunteering for have a high rate of HIV and STD infection does not mean that is the normal rate for sex workers in your area. Drug addicts generally have a higher rate of infection, as do those who are in mandatory programs. They are also less likely to change their behaviors. Still, guys who are having sex with drug addicts and picking up streetwalkers in the U.S. are definitely exposing themselves to a higher degree of risk, no question about it.

Second, yes, sex and love can go hand in hand, I absolutely agree. So can toast and jam, baseball and hot dogs, jazz and rain, etc., but in none of these cases is it necessarily the only option, and in no instance does having only one of the two mean something's wrong. Love without sex can be a great thing, as can sex without love. If your life is devoid of love, you feel that lack, and you're using sex as a way of covering that up, then, yeah, you're likely going to end up feeling empty. But that's far from the only way things happen, and the statement that an unfulfilling sexual coupling somehow automatically leads to the need for another of the same is simply 12-step no-think nonsense. It can, sure, but it doesn't necessarily. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes sex is just sex. In fact, heading out to a P4P encounter where you know in advance that it's just about sex is a good deal less damaging, imho, than heading out to bars on endless one-night stands in the hope that sex might turn into love.

Finally, you say you've never judged anyone here, but you've told us all 1) we're involved in wrong behavior that is morally corrupt, and 2) ought to stop, 3) you've said people involved in mongering -- meaning all of us here -- take advantage of others, 4) you've told us we're far gone. Exactly how is that not judgemental? Good that you've found something that works for you, but so have some of the rest of us. Perhaps the fault, dear Horatio, lies not in our stars but ourselves, and just because it's an equation that's no longer working for you doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the equation and that it's not working fine for others here. Some of us know exactly who we are, what we're doing, and why, are right where we intend to be, and don't need some sort of religious or social diagnosis to explain it to ourselves.

[Sporadic]

Nothing worse than a born again fill-in-the-blank.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by GettingTang
Many of you right here on this board will spend the better part of the remainder of your lives, seeking out multiple sexual encounters, that will never leave you fully gratified past the brief moment your in. this causes you to further seek out another quick fix. Contrary to popular belief, sex and love can go hand in hand. I plan to set my life up that way. I plan to find one woman to have a long term relationship with and yes have as much passionate sex as possible with her and only her.

If this is what you believe will make you happy, have at it. However, you might want to do some research on human behavior. For many years now, it has been clear that the male/female bonding you are referring to is a biological contrivance developed due to the need for infants to have a mother and father as caregiver and protector in the first five years of their lives. After about 5 years, most marriages will fail because, physiologicaly and psychologically, human's are designed to have multiple partners (especially men).

Anyway, you can try to live your life the way you are professing, but my guess is that you will be back mongering soon. No matter how much society has tried to alter your biological programming, you are still just a bunch of flesh surrounding your hormones.

Good luck, see you in a few months.

[Dickhead]

GT writes: "Go to one of these meetings and you soon realize just how far gone you are."

He then writes: "I have judged nobody on this forum!"

He then writes: "So all in all, you guys can't call me a hypocrite anymore."

What a fucking hypocrite.

[Sinanju Master]

Dude, while setting foot upon your newfound path in Life, just how can you be sure this dream woman you're intent on finding isn't HIV+ HERSELF? Do you expect ANYONE you meet in Life to be upfront and HONEST with you 100%? I'm not bashing you. but it DOES seem as if YOU are passively brow-beating others by extolling your own chosen path. It's good that you've decided to find a purpose in Life that will help others, but you seem to be a passive example of the Christian and Muslim missionaries of centuries past. Now they LITERALLY browbeat people! You got your message across, now take the car keys and head to your new job.

Sinanju Master

[GettingTang]

Hypocrite no more!

In the past 12 days here is what I have accomplished.
I now am volunteering two nights per week at a mandatory drug clinic. Many of the clients are prostitutes. I did my first night internship there last night. I can see many people I will be helping in the near future. I have a background from my college days in Psychology, so I was a shoe in the for the volunteer position. I can tell you in my orientation that lasted 6 hours some pretty scary stuff. I'll be brief and cover some key points you all might be interested in.

I was told by my supervisor that as many as 40%, at any given time of the patients at this clinic are HIV+ at any given time as many as 55% of the known prostitutes are HIV+ and as many as 25% are co-infected with HIV and Hep C. I was also told that most carry some sort of STD, most all are infected with herpes viruses. We were told this brief part of our orientation due to the fact that it seems MANY of the clients will offer sexual favors for preferential treatment or favors. We were told these stats to asses the risk of choosing to engage in such an unethical practice! HIV is real, are you all real with yourselves?

I must remind you, these are the same girls who are out there, doing you guys nightly! They reside in every city across this country! Have you had an HIV test lately? Might want to get one!

I also joined a sex addiction association having struggled with the urge to pay for sex again a few times. Yes, I avoided, keeping my promise to myself to do it no more. But I'm not too prideful to realize I will need some assistance to keep myself from doing so again. I honestly never thought I was addicted to paying for sex. Go to one of these meetings and you soon realize just how far gone you are. Many of you right here on this board will spend the better part of the remainder of your lives, seeking out multiple sexual encounters, that will never leave you fully gratified past the brief moment your in. this causes you to further seek out another quick fix. Contrary to popular belief, sex and love can go hand in hand. I plan to set my life up that way. I plan to find one woman to have a long term relationship with and yes have as much passionate sex as possible with her and only her. I'm a long way from that, but I know going the route I was would have lead to nothing!

So all in all, you guys can't call me a hypocrite anymore. Another thing, I have judged nobody on this forum! Not a one, I'm not so naive to admit I was one of you all just a few weeks ago. I'm not better then anyone here, I've just decided to change, that's all.

I truly think it's a sad existence, maybe that is just me and my opinion, but hey, I feel better about myself.

[Cash Works]

Pokey,

She was a one time thing. I met her shortly after checking into my hotel, she was in the lobby looking like she was about to cry & I (being the nobel gentleman that I am) asked her if she needed some help. Allegedly somebody had stolen the money out of her purse (typical hard luck hooker story? As I said below, when I first met her, I didn't know she was a pro). I was heading to dinner, so offered to feed her. We seemed to hit it off during dinner, she wound up spending the night with me (for free), I headed for the airport in the morning & I guess she headed back to work.

As for the snobs, they make me laugh. Without the money that they have only by virtue of their parentage, they have nothing. The point I was trying to make is that there area a-holes in every crowd & some crowds are nothing but a-holes. People everywhere, especially here in the USA, are too quick to judge others - Are all hookers bad people? I don't think so, some are, some aren't - I can say that truthfully, because I've actually met a lot of them. Here in the land of the free, however, most people believe that all hookers are bad people because "the way they make their living is evil!"

Number of hookers I've veen with? No idea. I lived in Brasil for two years, been to Thailand 4 times, spent nearly a year in The Netherlands, and the list goes on - care to hazard a guess? Number of hookers I've been with in the USA? I'd have to say less than 20, but that's a guess - I've spent most of the last 20 years outside the USA.

CW