The Morality of Prostitution

[Dan7373]

Is it moral to impose your moral values on others by force, without the agreement of others?

This is the question that has been missing in discussions of morality throughout human history, and even now.

Human history is full of examples where crusaders, missionaries, and religious or political fanatics destroyed whole cultures and ways of life to impose their values on others by force.

For a lot of westerners, it doesn't sound too bad that western Christians destroyed the cultures and ways of life among the native inhabitants of North and South America. Because Christian values were and to some extent still are western values.

But Muslims did something similar in the Middle East earlier in human history. And muslim values of modesty and strict control of women's sexual behavior still upset many westerners. Because these muslim values are neither christian nor western values.

So, it might feel okay to impose your values on others. But when others impose their values on you, then that's obviously not okay.

This is a double standard in the thinking of people who believe that their values should be universal values. They are okay with imposing their values on others, but they are outraged when others, with different values, impose their values on them.

Can morality be moral, when it's imposed by force, without the agreement of others?

This is the question that needs to be asked and answered in any debate about the morality of prostitution.

Because nowadays, many moral opponents of prostitution routinely use force and coercion to put and end to it. Or they do it in some sneaky way, where they attack the customers of women to take away their P4P business and force them to abandon prostitution that way.

I think the use of force against consenting relationships and people is immoral in itself. And any morality imposed on others this way is automatically immoral. Because this is like trying to achieve good by evil means and doing a lot of evil in the process.

Moral values should be universal only by consent and not by force. Because when force is used against consenting relationships and people, then it's no longer about who is right and who is wrong. It's about who is stronger and who is weaker. Might is right. That's what imposing morality by force amounts to. Which is immoral and wrong.

This kind of morality is immoral. Because this is doing to others that which you wouldn't want to be done to yourself.

If you don't want others to impose their values on you, then don't do this to others. Or else you have a double standard of morality that makes your morality immoral.

[Dan7373]

So you are going to hang your hat on "if a worker agrees to take the job, they agree to consent to all orders given by the wage slave owner". Fuck that shit!.

Unfortunately for you that is incorrect. You see even a person in the military can refuse to execute was is considered to be a illegal order. And a military person cannot quit.

The first slave that got off the boat to told master to "suck my mother fucking black dick" when told to go pick that cotton. He was shot in the head in front of all of the other slaves on the boat so they could see it. When master told the next slave to get off the boat and go pick some cotton, that slave ran up to master and said "just tell me where is and pick it clean". That is the unseen force that I refer to. That second slave gave consent. Did they not?

If I am understanding you correctly, I can put a gun to your head and tell you to open the safe. If you open the safe you have given consent to my request. Think that is an extreme example, better think again. The loss of a income stream by a sole provider of resources to a family unit can be devastating economically.

Let me finish up by saying you can rationalize your exploitation of sex workers in Pattaya, Thailand any way you like. Just don't lie me about it, nor yourself, nor get me to buy into your lame opinions on the matter. I am not buying your arguments.

But you do what you like. And I will do what I like. You want to be right. You keep using the word ridiculous to describe my arguments. Just let it go. I am not going to agree with you. If you are comfortable being a sex colonizer (as many have before you and will after you) knock yourself out. I can fuck as much as I can humanly fuck without pulling one girl out of a gogo bar on Soi 6. That is how I choose to get my fuck on. Get your fuck on however you choose my ISG brother.

May I as a grown man have an opinion that is different from yours and choose not to use those facilities without being told I am being ridiculous?

When I was with a Thai lady in Pattaya, I asked her what was her opinion about people trying to get her and other P4P ladies out of the P4P business and get them to work on regular jobs. And she had some hostile words to say about such people. Basically, she considered regular jobs as a form of exploitation without any reasonable way out. It's a life-long exploitation. That's the way she described it. And P4P work she saw as a way out of a life-long exploitation. It's a possibility to gain financial independence by investing money in business, buying a home, buying land, and so on.

That's why it's worthwhile to talk to P4P ladies themselves and see what they want, rather than impose your opinions and your views on them.

Speaking for these women, rather than letting them speak for themselves is a form of colonialism, when a foreigner does it. And when local people do it, then they are just a bunch of scoundrels who want to impose their opinions and views on others. It's a way of taking away people's freedom and choice. Which can be described as a modern form of enslavement.

If you really care about people's freedom, then let these people speak and decide for themselves, rather than impose your views on them. It's wrong to impose your views on other people without their consent.

Who are you to say that these women shouldn't have the freedom and the right to go with whomever they want in any arrangements they want? This is their decision and not yours or anyone else's.

And trying to discourage customers of such women is just an indirect way to ruin the business of these women, so that it's not worthwhile for them to do it anymore. It's a sneaky way to violate their rights and freedoms. And people, who do that, should be ashamed of themselves.

If you are going to violate people's rights and freedoms, then at least do it openly and honestly, rather than do it in some sneaky way, and then deny that you've done anything wrong. Doing it in a sneaky way is victimizing people twice. It's like stabbing someone in the back, while pretending to be their friend.

[SubCmdr]

So you are going to hang your hat on "if a worker agrees to take the job, they agree to consent to all orders given by the wage slave owner". Fuck that shit!.

Unfortunately for you that is incorrect. You see even a person in the military can refuse to execute was is considered to be a illegal order. And a military person cannot quit.

The first slave that got off the boat to told master to "suck my mother fucking black dick" when told to go pick that cotton. He was shot in the head in front of all of the other slaves on the boat so they could see it. When master told the next slave to get off the boat and go pick some cotton, that slave ran up to master and said "just tell me where is and pick it clean". That is the unseen force that I refer to. That second slave gave consent. Did they not?

If I am understanding you correctly, I can put a gun to your head and tell you to open the safe. If you open the safe you have given consent to my request. Think that is an extreme example, better think again. The loss of a income stream by a sole provider of resources to a family unit can be devastating economically.

Let me finish up by saying you can rationalize your exploitation of sex workers in Pattaya, Thailand any way you like. Just don't lie me about it, nor yourself, nor get me to buy into your lame opinions on the matter. I am not buying your arguments.

But you do what you like. And I will do what I like. You want to be right. You keep using the word ridiculous to describe my arguments. Just let it go. I am not going to agree with you. If you are comfortable being a sex colonizer (as many have before you and will after you) knock yourself out. I can fuck as much as I can humanly fuck without pulling one girl out of a gogo bar on Soi 6. That is how I choose to get my fuck on. Get your fuck on however you choose my ISG brother.

May I as a grown man have an opinion that is different from yours and choose not to use those facilities without being told I am being ridiculous?

[Dan7373]

The idea was consent. So stop attacking me and focus on the subject.

Girl has to make drink quotes and bar fine quotas. Penalty for not making them. That is the unseen force I spoke of. Apparently you are unaware of that. I am in Pattaya. Right now. Currently dating a girl worked in a bar. She explained how it works from the inside. Facts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But not their own facts.

Every workplace has its rules that workers agree to. And as long as workers are free to quit any time they want, then there is no problem with consent. They agree to abide by the rules of their workplace. And they can tear up this agreement any time they want, by quitting their employment.

Practically all workers in all occupations work in such conditions. And if you can say that these workers are free, and they give their consent, then the same applies to work in P4P.

Every worker in every occupation works because of need for money to pay for living expenses and other things. So, there is nothing especially bad or mysterious about your so-called unseen force.

It's perfectly okay to work to fulfill your needs and wants. This is the main reason why most people work in every occupation. And for most people there will be bad consequences if they quit their job and lose their income. This is the reality for most people. And it's ridiculous to suggest that you shouldn't use the services of such workers.

A janitor also has a quota and a deadline when he or she needs to do a certain amount of work. So, does this mean that this janitor is a slave or is being trafficked in some way? If this janitor is free to quit and look for other employment, than I would say 'No' this janitor has given his or her consent, and I shouldn't feel guilty about using the services of this janitor. The same is true in P4P.

[SubCmdr]

The idea was consent. So stop attacking me and focus on the subject.

Girl has to make drink quotes and bar fine quotas. Penalty for not making them. That is the unseen force I spoke of. Apparently you are unaware of that. I am in Pattaya. Right now. Currently dating a girl worked in a bar. She explained how it works from the inside. Facts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But not their own facts.

So, your idea of a guy trying to bar fine a lady without her consent is totally ridiculous. That's not how things are done there.

[Dan7373]

....

When it comes to consent, I stick with my original post. I would not buy a girl a drink or bar fine her if she was not into me. I'll talk to Mamason and see if I can verify what you have written about consent in the bars here in Pattaya. Would you like for me to report back?

I don't think you can bar fine a lady, if she says 'No' to you. Because in my experience, it's the lady herself who tells the mamasan about her agreement with the guy to go with him, and she tells the guy to pay her bar fine to the mamasan. This was the procedure for me and for other guys I've seen.

So, your idea of a guy trying to bar fine a lady without her consent is totally ridiculous. That's not how things are done there.

[SubCmdr]

I've been at such bars in Pattaya. I've experienced it myself, rather than heard about it from someone.

Well how about that. Since I am writing this reply to you from the lobby of my hotel in Pattaya. Perhaps I too have experienced it myself. LOL!

The way it works there is that a guy needs talk with ladies there and ask some lady he likes if she wants to go with him. And if they have mutual agreement about the time, the place, and the money he will pay her, then they go to the Mamasan of the bar, and the guy pays the bar fine for the lady.

The lady can refuse if she doesn't like the guy, or the money, or the amount of time he wants to spend with her.

Sitting in the bar with my friends, they told me different. But maybe I will test your theory out during the remainder of my visit. You in town? Want to meet on Soi 6 and show me how it is done?

There is some racism in Thailand against dark-skinned people. And I've seen with my own eyes how many bar ladies were ignoring an African American, who came to the bar to chat with the ladies. A lot of them wouldn't even make eye contact with him, and they were giving him all kinds of negative vibes with their non-verbal behavior. And it wasn't just one lady. It was most ladies there. And the Mamasan had nothing to say about it to the ladies.

Well, I don't consider that racism. And I am one of those dark-skinned people you spoke about. I have experienced seeing a girl that I was interested in and then they failed to come over to me after good eye making contact. Lots of pussy out there my fellow ISG brother. Don't feel sorry for me. So far this trip have found enough Thai girls willing to get on THIS black dick to keep it completely occupied. So, I do not know of what you speak. Although I do understand that my experiences do not invalidate yours. If a girl is not interested in you for any reason, move on. Many more certainly will be.

So, the ladies there are totally free to refuse a guy and give him a cold shoulder, if he turns them off in some way. Rumors and hearsay aren't always true. Quite often they get exaggerated and distorted, as they are passed from one person to another. And by the time you hear it, there might be very little, if any truth left in it.

That is certainly true. Your post illustrates that. I was told before my trip that Thai girls were not into black men. I have found that to be a myth busted when I went to the first place where all the girls ignored me except one. For whatever reason, she decided to come up to me and start a conversation. Not really my type. But she was a lovely girl. So, I made a deal with her and she got a room. She was into me sexually and got hers. And when I say she was sexually into me I mean that she let me go head in naked and flood the zone. I guess that is what you call informed consent.

Windmill 1 was a place where the girls were all over me. Of course I am not a cheap charlie when I go out. I buy a bottle and make it rain. Seems to eliminate any biases. Especially since the Mamasan moves the cheep Charlies out of my spot when I arrive. Take notes.

When it comes to consent, I stick with my original post. I would not buy a girl a drink or bar fine her if she was not into me. I'll talk to Mamason and see if I can verify what you have written about consent in the bars here in Pattaya. Would you like for me to report back?

[Dan7373]

I personally don't see consent as a bright line issue as you describe it. Because consent given under the threat of receiving a penalty from force unseen by the individual asking for the consent, but being experienced by the person giving the consent clouds the issue. I would not go with someone who knew was under threat of some kind.

Let's take for example, Pattaya, Thailand. I have been told that if you bar fine a girl she has to go with you. Is that consent given by her? She can refuse. Then she loses her job. That is why if a bar girl is not into me I don't bother to buy her drinks and I just don't bar fine girls as a personal principle. But in my mind this is a perfect example of the shades of gray that exist in this arena.

I've been at such bars in Pattaya. I've experienced it myself, rather than heard about it from someone.

The way it works there is that a guy needs talk with ladies there and ask some lady he likes if she wants to go with him. And if they have mutual agreement about the time, the place, and the money he will pay her, then they go to the Mamasan of the bar, and the guy pays the bar fine for the lady.

The lady can refuse if she doesn't like the guy, or the money, or the amount of time he wants to spend with her.

There is some racism in Thailand against dark-skinned people. And I've seen with my own eyes how many bar ladies were ignoring an African American, who came to the bar to chat with the ladies. A lot of them wouldn't even make eye contact with him, and they were giving him all kinds of negative vibes with their non-verbal behavior. And it wasn't just one lady. It was most ladies there. And the Mamasan had nothing to say about it to the ladies.

So, the ladies there are totally free to refuse a guy and give him a cold shoulder, if he turns them off in some way.

Rumors and hearsay aren't always true. Quite often they get exaggerated and distorted, as they are passed from one person to another. And by the time you hear it, there might be very little, if any truth left in it.

I'm sure medical workers also wouldn't accept consent, if they knew that the patient they are asking is under some kind of threat. This is just common sense, that's true in every kind of consent, regardless of what the consent is for.

Established businesses in Thailand are licensed and regulated by some government agencies. And they themselves have to follow rules and regulations. If someone complains about them breaking the rules, then they can lose their business license and go out of business.

But in Western countries, where P4P isn't allowed, there are no regulations or rules for P4P. And P4P is run unofficially by people whom the government considers criminals. And in such a situation you do indeed need to be suspicious that the sex-workers aren't totally free and they aren't being treated well. They have no independent arbiter to make sure that everything is fair and square. And they are all afraid of turning to the courts and the police, when they have disagreements. So, they have no law. And that's what can make it bad.

[SubCmdr]

When the person is legally capable of making their own decisions, then asking them for consent is sufficient. That's normal practice in every field where consent is required. And sexual consent is no different. When people make porn-movies in western countries, then they obtain consent more or less the same way as it's done in medicine and in every other field. The ethical standards are same in every situation.
It's only when people aren't legally capable of making their own decisions, then asking them for consent isn't sufficient. And you have to make sure that this isn't the kind of people you are dealing with, before you ask for consent.The ethics of consent are already well worked out. You don't need to invent anything special for obtaining consent in P4P. It all comes down to trusting and believing the person, when they say that they consent and agree.

I personally don't see consent as a bright line issue as you describe it. Because consent given under the threat of receiving a penalty from force unseen by the individual asking for the consent, but being experienced by the person giving the consent clouds the issue. I would not go with someone who knew was under threat of some kind.

Let's take for example, Pattaya, Thailand. I have been told that if you bar fine a girl she has to go with you. Is that consent given by her? She can refuse. Then she loses her job. That is why if a bar girl is not into me I don't bother to buy her drinks and I just don't bar fine girls as a personal principle. But in my mind this is a perfect example of the shades of gray that exist in this arena.

[Dan7373]

I'm interested in having sex with prostitutes abroad but there's no way in hell I'm going to to be unethical about it. How do I know which women are being forced to prostitute themselves or being controlled by pimps? Is there anything else I need to make sure to stay ethical?

I'm familiar with getting informed consent in a medical situation. Informed consent is something that's routinely obtained from patients practically every time patients come for treatment.

So, medical workers just have to make sure that the patient understands and agrees to have the medical procedure done. And medical workers do that by explaining to the patient and asking for agreement and consent.

Medical workers don't need to worry that some family members have somehow tried to influence the patient's decision at home or at some other place. And they don't need to worry that the patient's life circumstance have somehow influenced his or her decision.

When the person is legally capable of making their own decisions, then asking them for consent is sufficient. That's normal practice in every field where consent is required. And sexual consent is no different. When people make porn-movies in western countries, then they obtain consent more or less the same way as it's done in medicine and in every other field. The ethical standards are same in every situation.

It's only when people aren't legally capable of making their own decisions, then asking them for consent isn't sufficient. And you have to make sure that this isn't the kind of people you are dealing with, before you ask for consent.

The ethics of consent are already well worked out. You don't need to invent anything special for obtaining consent in P4P.

It all comes down to trusting and believing the person, when they say that they consent and agree.

You don't need to have God-like knowledge of the other person's life and try to decide for them. In fact, having such knowledge and deciding for them on the basis of such knowledge would be unethical. Because it's an invasion of privacy and a violation of the person's right to decide for themselves.

[SubCmdr]

I'm interested in having sex with prostitutes abroad but there's no way in hell I'm going to to be unethical about it. How do I know which women are being forced to prostitute themselves or being controlled by pimps? Is there anything else I need to make sure to stay ethical?

We all see our bodies, minds or both to get money. In those jobs we are all faced with making ethical choices. During my time of work, I was faced with making choices that could cause be to lose favor with my bosses or even my job. But each time I made the choice to hold up my code and risk the loss. A girl in a bad situation can do the same. It may be a hard choice and cause her some pain, but the choice can be made.

[XViking]

I'm interested in having sex with prostitutes abroad but there's no way in hell I'm going to to be unethical about it. How do I know which women are being forced to prostitute themselves or being controlled by pimps? Is there anything else I need to make sure to stay ethical?

There are 2 worlds, mass media world specializing on brain washing and the real world. Forced prostitution exists in the former world. Even if a girl does not like you but cannot decline a client by contract, she would give you such a service that you would never ever come to her again.

[Dan7373]

As long as the woman is willing and came to the decision on her own, it's fair play. Luring and exploiting one into prostitution ought to be the red line.

When I was walking alone in the streets of Pattaya, lots of P4P women there tried to lure me into bed with them and exploit me for the money I had.

It was for me to decide whether to go with a lady or not. But these ladies tried their best to persuade me and influence my decision in their favor.

Was this luring and exploitation? And was it wrong for these ladies to do that?

And what if the roles were reversed? What if it was guys who were trying to persuade some hot lady to do P4P with them?

I can understand and agree with the words consent, willing, and voluntary. But luring and exploitation are often used to describe normal P4P business between ladies and guys. And with such description I don't agree.

I think the words consent, willing, and voluntary are enough to describe legitimate and ethical P4P interaction between ladies and guys. Because proper consent is informed consent where both know and understand the terms of their interaction. And when you have that, then the words luring and exploitation have no place here.

Luring and exploitation happens only when there is some kind of deception, or harassment, or intimidation, or use of force to make it happen.

Just because a P4P lady is calling out to me and showing me her tits doesn't make it luring or exploitation. And the same can be said about a guy calling out to a P4P lady and showing her his money. And no lady is born P4P. They need to get into the business one way or another, once they become adults. So, it's legitimate for people to suggest and offer such opportunities for ladies who might want to do it, including showing the lady the kind of money she can potentially make.

When I was walking alone in Pattaya and P4P ladies were calling out to me, then I said 'No' many times. But some of these ladies were persistent. And they kept at it with me as long as I stayed nearby. I had to say 'No' many times. Some people might call this harassment. Because these ladies wouldn't take 'No' for an answer.

But there were times when I wanted to say 'Yes', and I said 'No' out of habit and not being sure right away. So, the persistent lady eventually got me to go with her. And I'd say that my consent was informed and voluntary, even though the lady was persistent with me.

I wouldn't call this harassment, because I chose to stay and listen to the persistent ladies. If had tried to walk away, and they pursued me, then this might qualify as harassment. And I think it works the same way for ladies too, when guys try to persuade them to do P4P with them. I believe in equality of freedom and rights for both men and women. So, anything that's fair for men is fair for women too.

[Golfinho]

I've spent some time with a P4P lady in Thailand. I wasn't just giving her money and banging her. We also stayed together, and we did everything together for several weeks. We got to know each other really well. And we trusted each other well enough to talk openly and sincerely about everything.

So, one day we were walking around the place where we stayed. And my lady was suddenly surprised to see her lady friend, with whom she worked before at a hotel. Both my lady and her friend used to work as cleaning ladies at a hotel. Her friend was walking around with a European guy, just like my lady was walking with me. But my lady didn't want to approach her friend and say Hi to her. My lady said that her friend was busy working with her European guy, and she didn't want to distract her from that..

As long as the woman is willing and came to the decision on her own, it's fair play. Luring and exploiting one into prostitution ought to be the red line.

[Dan7373]

I've spent some time with a P4P lady in Thailand. I wasn't just giving her money and banging her. We also stayed together, and we did everything together for several weeks. We got to know each other really well. And we trusted each other well enough to talk openly and sincerely about everything.

So, one day we were walking around the place where we stayed. And my lady was suddenly surprised to see her lady friend, with whom she worked before at a hotel. Both my lady and her friend used to work as cleaning ladies at a hotel. Her friend was walking around with a European guy, just like my lady was walking with me. But my lady didn't want to approach her friend and say Hi to her. My lady said that her friend was busy working with her European guy, and she didn't want to distract her from that.

So, they went their way, and we went our way. But my lady kept telling me just how surprised she was to see her friend obviously doing P4P work with a guy. Because when both my lady and her friend worked together as cleaning ladies at a hotel, then her friend often criticized the P4P ladies at the hotel for doing something shameful and dishonorable. This lady friend told my lady many times that she would never ever do something like this. P4P work was beneath her.

That's why my lady was so surprised to see her morally protesting friend now doing P4P work with a guy. Her friend was now doing something that she said she would never do.

But my lady didn't have anything negative to say about her friend for being morally inconsistent or being a hypocrite. She just accepted that her friend changed her mind, and she understood why her friend might want to change her mind this way.

They both worked as cleaning ladies. It was a lot of work and not too much money. And they were basically stuck in that situation. They were at the bottom of the social ladder. And they couldn't make it better, unless they did something different. P4P work was the obvious choice for both of them. Because they could make a lot more money, and they didn't have to work nearly as much or as hard.

And then on a different occasion, I was telling my lady that I came to Thailand to meet P4P ladies like her. And I said to her that in my own country I could get into a lot of trouble for doing this kind thing. So, were talking about the people who want to end prostitution and put ladies like her to work on regular jobs. And my lady got angry. Because she used to work at a regular job, and she knew what it was like. Basically she saw that regular work as a kind of exploitation that permanently left people in a bad situation.

Instead of seeing these people, who want to end prostitution, as being on her side and speaking for her interests, she saw them as a kind of enemies who want to violate her freedom and choice and return her back to unhappiness and exploitation.

I think the debate about prostitution nowadays comes down to debate about people's freedom to decide and to choose for themselves. And the people, who are trying to end prostitution with prohibitive and punitive laws, don't have a moral leg to stand on. So, instead of saying openly and honestly that that want to put some limits on the freedom of women and men to prohibit prostitution. They lie and pretend that all P4P ladies are forced and unfree, and there is no such thing as P4P by choice.

That's what their position basically comes down to. They claim that there is no such thing as P4P by choice. And to uphold their position, they do everything they can to ignore any objections from P4P ladies and not allow them to speak for themselves. They bring out only P4P ladies who suffered some kind of abuse and injustice to support their view, and they ignore the rest. And most P4P ladies aren't eager to speak out publicly and make themselves known. Because they can suffer from discrimination and abuse as a result of such revelation. Which enables opponents of prostitution to get away with their lies and propaganda.

In an honest debate about prostitution, the morality of prostitution comes down to the morality of freedom. Because the question is: Should consenting adults be free to choose and to be with each other as they wish? Or should there be limits on their freedom to make it better for society or for some other people?

Everything else is a red herring that distracts people from the issue of freedom. Because exceptions don't make the rule. Just because you can find some P4P ladies who are abused and who aren't free, doesn't necessarily mean that all P4P ladies are like that. Such cases are exceptions that exist mostly in countries that are trying to prohibit prostitution and as a result drive such women into the underground economy into the clutches of criminals and abusers.