The Morality of Prostitution

[DJ FourMoney]

This article started a lively discussion on one of Jackson's other boards, this morning ... I hope I can get away with posting the URL here:

http://www.argentinaindependent.com/...buenos-aires-/

Reading articles like this one get me to questioning my own morality as a P4P participant. Or am I falling victim to the misandric propaganda again?

Well written...

Don't fall victim of it. Some societies don't look after its lesser people and leave them with very few options. In countries like Germany were its legal I likely think its a bit more of a choice, since you can go to school largely for nothing and the State gives you plenty of money (relatively speaking) if you have a child.

Those without a job and without job skills can still go to school but may not want too, which is okay. You can choose the path of the Adult Industry but there's a social penalty for that when there largely shouldn't be one.

[Westy]

This article started a lively discussion on one of Jackson's other boards, this morning ... I hope I can get away with posting the URL here:

http://www.argentinaindependent.com/...buenos-aires-/

Reading articles like this one get me to questioning my own morality as a P4P participant. Or am I falling victim to the misandric propaganda again?

[Westy]

I *KNOW* that radical feminism is becoming an increasingly powerful voice in this debate and that it has negatively impacted on the sexual freedoms of men. I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that the rad fems didn't START it...

Also, I have to take issue (again) with the use of the word 'feminist'. I consider myself a feminist. I believe in gender equality in employment, politics, socio-economic status, etc. The women {fighting to suppress prostitution - W} are not, to my mind, true 'feminists'. Those women (2nd wave feminists, feminazis, rad fems) despise men, which makes them MISANDRISTS, not feminists. I'm reading a lot of stuff lately that blames 'feminists' for all of society's ills, but that's not fair. Please don't tar us all with the same brush. Sex-positive (or 3rd wave) feminists, like me, are actually on YOUR side. We're out there fighting for your sexual freedoms, as well as our own.

I, for one, get that distinction. And believe me, RN, I appreciate your efforts.

Misandry has been around long before the "feminist movement". Aristophanes' Lysistrata wouldn't have been so funny to the Athenians, and civilizations since, if the audience hadn't seen misandrist behavior in their neighborhood; heck, it wouldn't even have been written!

Feminism, the struggle for gender equality, is not misandry, any more than "male chauvinism" is necessarily based in misogyny. But "the feminist movement" became a forum for misandrists and it was hijacked by misandry - or so it appears to me.

I was raised by a single mother living with her misandrist mother, so I grew up with misandry (which is bloody uncomfortable for a boy child). I learned early and thoroughly to hide and suppress my sexuality, enough so that a Federal security-clearance investigator once told me that someone had reported me as "homosexual" - which I am not.

(Maybe I'd have been a good candidate for the priesthood. But I'm not Catholic, and I'm not interested in pederasty either....)

[Rubber Nursey]

I understand that immediately after women got voting rights, the restrictions to prostitution were implemented.

Um, no. There have been restrictions against prostitution for centuries. Google stuff like 'temple prostitutes', 'Catholic Church, brothels', and 'Ancient Greece, pornae' and you'll see what I mean.

It's no coincidence that in many parts of the world, prostitution is illegal but 'tolerated'. This ensures men have access to paid sex, while at the same time refusing to give sex workers any sort of legitimacy. Translation: men have a right to buy it; women don't have a right to sell it. It's been this way for many, many years.

As I said in my earlier post...I *KNOW* that radical feminism is becoming an increasingly powerful voice in this debate and that it has negatively impacted on the sexual freedoms of men. I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that the rad fems didn't START it...they jumped on a bandwagon that was already occupied by bible-bashers and sexist gits who don't believe women should be allowed to charge for sex. It used to be that MEN blamed WOMEN for male lust, so they suppressed women's sexual freedoms to prevent it. Now WOMEN are blaming MEN for male lust...but they're still trying to suppress women's sexual freedoms in order to prevent it. The motive has changed, but the result is the same.

Also, I have to take issue (again) with the use of the word 'feminist'. I consider myself a feminist. I believe in gender equality in employment, politics, socio-economic status, etc. The women you are talking about are not, to my mind, true 'feminists'. Those women (2nd wave feminists, feminazis, rad fems) despise men, which makes them MISANDRISTS, not feminists. I'm reading a lot of stuff lately that blames 'feminists' for all of society's ills, but that's not fair. Please don't tar us all with the same brush. Sex-positive (or 3rd wave) feminists, like me, are actually on YOUR side. We're out there fighting for your sexual freedoms, as well as our own.

[Rubber Nursey]

It used to be even more slanted in New Zealand prior to full legalisation of prostitution - it used to be a crime for a prostitute to request money for sex, but it wasn't a crime for a punter to offer money for sex... Consequently, negotiating a price for services would up being a bit like an auction.

LOL! That sounds about right. It's similar here for street work in most states...the sex worker is 'soliciting' if she offers it, but it's ok for the client to ask for it.

Mind you, even if the client is the one to offer it, the sex worker can still be busted for accepting it - which is how most police stings work. Undercover police approach street workers, offer them money, then nab them when they agree. In WA, this method is also used to bust private workers on condom offences...police phone up posing as a client and beg and haggle for bareback, increasing the offer to insane amounts of money until (some) workers eventually agree and are nabbed for "offering" to provide unprotected services. You'd think police would have more important things to do with their time, wouldn't you... *sigh*

[Rubber Nursey]

how visible is this license? anyone can access it on the internet? ... If it is not easily accessible, then it should not interfere with visa requirements. Or at least with future jobs. ...And why don't you need a license to be a carpenter, or do you?

Brothel owner and manager (ie. receptionist) license information is available to anyone. Individual sex worker license information is not available to the public, but access *is* granted to various government departments and authorities. This could include the tax department, local councils, social security, health authorities and immigration, amongst others.

One of the side-effects of global trafficking/sex slavery hysteria has been increased information-sharing between immigration departments and prostitution licensing bodies (and/or police). It would be nice to think that immigration would just check your work status and leave it at that, but it's not like they're going to wipe your details from their databases afterwards.

And that's the major problem with sex industry licensing...even where the licensing authority give assurances of privacy protection, they can't actually guarantee it once the information leaves their hands, especially when they pass the information on to departments that DON'T have adequate privacy protections. Centrelink (Australia's social security department), for example, shares information with pretty much anyone who asks. If the prostitution authority shares licensing information with Centrelink, Centrelink can (and does) share that information with the tax department, child support agency, police, family courts, even utilities! Centrelink is also linked with the national employment network, so it's conceivable that they *could* share sex work licensing information with employment agents and damage the chances of securing non-sex industry employment in the future.

So basically, with so many people potentially having access to your sex work history, ticking the visa application box that says you haven't been involved in sex work can be a fraught with danger. I personally know two women who were flagged as "licensed prostitutes" (and denied visas) before they even got the chance to lie about it! And brothel owners and receptionists don't have a hope in hell, because their license details are publically available.

re: licensing of carpenters. Regulations vary from state to state, but yes - in my state, carpenters, nurses, hairdressers, publicans, etc are required to register with a government department or industry body. There is one big difference with this form of licensing, though...their license denotes a PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATION has been attained. It tells the public that the person has undergone the requisite training or study to perform the job and should be considered a skilled professional. A carpenter's trade registration acknowledges competency and brings positive benefits to the licensee.

Sex industry licenses, on the other hand, require NO training or study and do NOT recognise professional skills or qualifications. They are introduced with the sole intention of monitoring and controlling the behaviour of sex industry workers. It's not the same as a carpenter's registration...it's more akin to a sex offender database.

[Australiasucks]

i love the us. it is a great country, its freedom is wonderful, just the unlimited freedom of speech! have you seen countries like germany and italy reigning in google and arresting their managers?

just needs to have legal ***** houses (or you live at the border to canada or mexico). and don't do what the majority does (eat at mcdonalds, get totally obese, ......) there are sizable minorities for about anything you can imagine, like eating healthy, riding a bicycle across the entire country, etc.

america is still leading the world in terms of research, new business, etc. but the majority of their population is ignorant, decadent, fat, .....

probably the feminazis that screwed it up. i understand that immediately after women got voting rights, the restrictions to prostitution were implemented.

very interesting arguments here

feminist arguments against prostitution dismantled

an example of a rich educated prostitute

financing doctorate with prostitution work

and an attempt to explain why feminists are so successful and winning the war on all fronts. have you ever notice that most prostitution venues are drying out, be it help in brazil, brazilian street walkers, and cambodian brothels (beyond the deplorable 10 year old child abuse brothels, but all of them)!

females are superior in social manipulation skills


rubbernursey, there is a general trend to repress men's access to sexual outlet, females having sex with younger guys and prostitutes are just collateral damage in a larger war. check out the entire age of consent war and the child porn hysteria.


supreme court oks indefinite detention for possession of photos. but violent robbers get freed.

clicking on child porn link: jail. but vilent lynching movies are prime time tv

lynching adolescent movies are legal but nude adolescent movies are a crime

of course, sex workers crossing feminist picket lines are also an enemy.

feminists actually managed to pervert language, nowadays fondling a minor is "[CodeWord123]" and 17 year-olds are children. maybe i am getting old, but in my old days of youth, 11 year olds were children and [CodeWord123] was forceful violent penetration against a person's expressed will.

other interesting sites
http://theantifeminist.com/

i just laughed when i heard that, that cern lhc is a european project led by european scientists the most cutting edge project in physics. the gdp of the eu is larger than that of the us, china will eclipse the us in 10 years, they already surpassed germany and will surpass japan very soon, the us is next. you are looking at america from past returns, the current state of america is poor and has been since the financial crisis.

new business?? the us economy is a mess. the next big ideal will most likely come from asia.

[Westy]

"(T)here is a big cheat in the story: prostitution is the left arm of feminism.

Feminism has got power and needs power. Power is money. To get money, females are (feminist) wives or prostitutes. When prostitutes have paid their schools and real estates, they change work and claim more rights for females (and less duties), they want more power, they become feminist themselves.

A harsh indictment, maybe not a just indictment....

I personally am not a good witness to such an indictment. If we define the 1960s as "The Sexual Revolution," I was interned as an enemy alien. Rather than seek my own satisfaction, I gave in to the notion that men's sexuality was "the enemy." I gave my support to the one woman who needed my help and couldn't realistically look elsewhere for help - my mother. I paid the rent, finally bought her a home, and took care of her (financially, emotionally, and at the end even physically) until she died.

Was she a "feminist"? Depends, to sortaquote Bill Clinton, on "what your definition of 'is' is." She raised me to adulthood without the help of a man, and without the help of the State (social services, charity, food stamps, etc.) As far as I know, she never accepted money from the State or from any "boyfriend" - and she had damn few boyfriends, that much I DO know.

Did she depend on me? Yeah, from when I got enough of a job to help out. I paid the rent from about my 20th birthday. I stuck with her, even when I had a girlfriend, because "GF wants me but Mom needs me." I took care of her the best I could. To this day I figure "I love you" means "I need you and depend on you, and lay claim to your fealty out of my need."

Was I a f***in' fool? Yeah, dam'likely. But I can shave without wincing at the reflection in my mirror. I can remember the trouble Mom had with raising me and keeping me decently clothed and fed (she was a practical nurse, an 'old-lady sitter', till my income was enough to take care of both of us). I did my best to "give back".

Now I'm too old to consider "the honest route" - taking a woman to be my wife, and raising a family with her. What's the "next most honest" way to my satisfaction? Yeah, you guessed it - an occasional visit to a prostitute, who will "clear my pipes" for/with me without requiring me to cleave unto her in holy matrimony forevermore.

Please pardon my drunken maunderings. But I hold that prostitution, for me, is the most "moral" way I can at-least PRETEND that "some woman loves me", at least for an hour or so.

[Dickhead]

"when each man easily found a woman and they created a lasting family, and prostitution was just a curiosity for few men."

and when and where did that fantasy take place? how many "lasting families" did the spanish conquerers create while [CodeWord125] virtually the entire indigenous population? how many "lasting families" were created when the british dumped their detritus on the shores of oz? a few, certainly, and those early families are still influential in those areas, but seriously? "lasting families" as an historical fact are in the distinct minority. perhaps you read too much nineteenth century fiction, or watched a lot of 50s era american situation comedies.

also, i might feel i visit prostitutes "infrequently" but my wife's lawyer may have a different definition of "infrequently."

i never visit prostitutes any more, actually. nowadays they visit me. costs the same and i know when the sheets were last changed. granted, it was a long time ago, but i know.

[Bango Cheito]

When was this mythical time and place where people "visited prostitues infrequentely"... it's been RAMPANT for MILLIONS of years literally, prostitution existed long before marriage did!

[AColonizer]

i agree with you, it seems those articles are written by me, but there is a big cheat in the story: prostitution is the left arm of feminism.

feminism has got power and needs power. power is money. to get money, females are (feminist) wives or prostitutes. when prostitutes have paid their schools and real estates, they change work and claim more rights for females (and less duties), they want more power, they become feminist themselves.

there was no feminism and no power to feminism in the past, when each man easily found a woman and they created a lasting family, and prostitution was just a curiosity for few men.

feminism doesn't want to say, and this is the first and the biggest cheat of feminism, when women were abused in the past, the problem was (and remains) in the women themselves because women usually chose (and choose) wrong men and/or women always change idea about their tastes and wishes.

i love the us. it is a great country, its freedom is wonderful, just the unlimited freedom of speech! have you seen countries like germany and italy reigning in google and arresting their managers?

just needs to have legal ***** houses (or you live at the border to canada or mexico). and don't do what the majority does (eat at mcdonalds, get totally obese, ......) there are sizable minorities for about anything you can imagine, like eating healthy, riding a bicycle across the entire country, etc.

america is still leading the world in terms of research, new business, etc. but the majority of their population is ignorant, decadent, fat, .....

probably the feminazis that screwed it up. i understand that immediately after women got voting rights, the restrictions to prostitution were implemented.

very interesting arguments here

feminist arguments against prostitution dismantled

an example of a rich educated prostitute

financing doctorate with prostitution work

and an attempt to explain why feminists are so successful and winning the war on all fronts. have you ever notice that most prostitution venues are drying out, be it help in brazil, brazilian street walkers, and cambodian brothels (beyond the deplorable 10 year old child abuse brothels, but all of them)!

females are superior in social manipulation skills


rubbernursey, there is a general trend to repress men's access to sexual outlet, females having sex with younger guys and prostitutes are just collateral damage in a larger war. check out the entire age of consent war and the child porn hysteria.


supreme court oks indefinite detention for possession of photos. but violent robbers get freed.

clicking on child porn link: jail. but vilent lynching movies are prime time tv

lynching adolescent movies are legal but nude adolescent movies are a crime

of course, sex workers crossing feminist picket lines are also an enemy.

feminists actually managed to pervert language, nowadays fondling a minor is "[CodeWord123]" and 17 year-olds are children. maybe i am getting old, but in my old days of youth, 11 year olds were children and [CodeWord123] was forceful violent penetration against a person's expressed will.

other interesting sites
http://theantifeminist.com/

[Metric]

Most Australian states, for starters! The legislation specifies that it's an offence for "a prostitute" to solicit, loiter, accost, etc, but doesn't say anything about clients doing it. As I said, WA's new street laws DO actually make both parties accountable, in theory, but in practice only the woman is ever charged.

It used to be even more slanted in New Zealand prior to full legalisation of prostitution - it used to be a crime for a prostitute to request money for sex, but it wasn't a crime for a punter to offer money for sex...

Consequently, negotiating a price for services would up being a bit like an auction.

[Brazil Specialist]

my answer is the offshore vacation (yours, too?) for the money we might spend playing "the dating game" in the usa, we can spend a couple of weeks a year (maybe more) getting all we can handle in a p4p haven like the dom rep. the girls are as eager for our money as we're eager for their booty, and we go home with memories that can last us till the next trip. :d

as for leaving the usa, i still have a couple of reasons to stay here for a while longer. the usa is still a great nation, despite its faults (and the politicians who seem hell-bent to rid this country of its greatness!) but i'm aware that my life could be better somewhere else; and i do spend a fair amount of time traveling offshore, looking for the place i'd like to live when i am ready to "sail away."

i love the us. it is a great country, its freedom is wonderful, just the unlimited freedom of speech! have you seen countries like germany and italy reigning in google and arresting their managers?

just needs to have legal ***** houses (or you live at the border to canada or mexico). and don't do what the majority does (eat at mcdonalds, get totally obese, ......) there are sizable minorities for about anything you can imagine, like eating healthy, riding a bicycle across the entire country, etc.

america is still leading the world in terms of research, new business, etc. but the majority of their population is ignorant, decadent, fat, .....

probably the feminazis that screwed it up. i understand that immediately after women got voting rights, the restrictions to prostitution were implemented.

very interesting arguments here

feminist arguments against prostitution dismantled

an example of a rich educated prostitute

financing doctorate with prostitution work

and an attempt to explain why feminists are so successful and winning the war on all fronts. have you ever notice that most prostitution venues are drying out, be it help in brazil, brazilian street walkers, and cambodian brothels (beyond the deplorable 10 year old child abuse brothels, but all of them)!

females are superior in social manipulation skills


rubbernursey, there is a general trend to repress men's access to sexual outlet, females having sex with younger guys and prostitutes are just collateral damage in a larger war. check out the entire age of consent war and the child porn hysteria.


supreme court oks indefinite detention for possession of photos. but violent robbers get freed.

clicking on child porn link: jail. but vilent lynching movies are prime time tv

lynching adolescent movies are legal but nude adolescent movies are a crime

of course, sex workers crossing feminist picket lines are also an enemy.

feminists actually managed to pervert language, nowadays fondling a minor is "[CodeWord123]" and 17 year-olds are children. maybe i am getting old, but in my old days of youth, 11 year olds were children and [CodeWord123] was forceful violent penetration against a person's expressed will.

other interesting sites
http://theantifeminist.com/

[Brazil Specialist]

Urgh. This really gives me the shits.

Anti-prostitution arsehats are always yapping on about 'rescuing' sex workers from the industry and billions of dollars are spent globally on 'exit and retraining' programs. And yet, they bring in laws like Victoria's licensing system that BRAND sex workers for life, impacting on their ability to EVER live their lives as 'normal' citizens. Lots of Australian sex workers are denied visas because of their 'licensed prostitute' status and, of course, licensing (and police registration) prevents ex-sex workers working in countless non-sex industry occupations in the future.

Rather than supporting people to leave the industry, these laws often force people to stay longer than they had ever intended.

how visible is this license? anyone can access it on the internet? It should be as confidential as your medical record.

If it is not easily accessible, then it should not interfere with visa requirements. Or at least with future jobs.

Still, it looks scary, even if it is fairly confidential. So I repeat, what are the exact procedures? And why don't you need a license to be a carpenter, or do you?

[Dickhead]

All those prices I gave were for an hour, and multiple pops are almost always allowed, although sometimes the gal will lose interest. Generally in my case that would mean about 40 minutes of getting the snot pounded out of you, with about ten minutes in between for bonding, cuddling, and similar non-value-added activities. Club gals will stay more than an hour if they are having a good time but if they stay too long they have to pay a bar fine.

The apartment gals normally tell me one of three things: they want to work during the day, they can't risk being seen, and the security factor. But I don't know about the security. I sort of assumed there was some big dude hiding in a closet somewhere in those apartments, but there isn't. I know of several who've been working in the same dingy apartment for six or seven years. I figure the apartments where they live are even dingier so it doesn't faze them.

The street gals say exactly what you pointed out: Freedom to set own schedule and to bugger off as indicated (rain, etc.). The cafe gals say the same thing but of course have to pay to get in.

The club gals hate rainy nights because they know they are just going to sit there all night for nothing, and if they don't work 5-6 nights a week they get fired.