The Morality of Prostitution

[Rubber Nursey]

"RN: Heroin equals no choice. If you know nothing about that, count yourself very lucky."

Just for the record - I may have never used drugs myself, but I deal with heroin addiction every day in my work. I admit my opinions on heroin use are not based on personal experience, but they ARE based on the experiences related to me by heroin addicted street-based sex workers.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by Dick Johnson
If it is a woman's choice to be with a pimp who takes her money, who treats her like crap, does it make it right just because it is her choice? Some prostitutes love their pimps, even though they are low life to us. What about a pros choice to use coccaine or heroin? Or a 15yr old's choice to sell her body for money? Are these to be encouraged just because it is the women's choice?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Unfortunately, at this age, you end up with the issue of maturity and that infringes on the quality of the choice, so no.
4. See Above

Just my opinions

So choice and control are both unrealistic fancy gibberish. You can't enforce it and you can't encourage it. Perhaps a better way to think is consideration for the women's interest.

A little bit of regulation is good. In many places even if prostituting is legal, solicitating and pimping is not.

Now you're getting inot an issue of who's the right person to say what's the best interest. Our government (mostly) thinks it is, we all pretty much disagree with there decision, no? If we didn't, then we wouldn't engage in the hobby, right? So, since we disagree, we think they are wrong. Therefor, we don't think they should be making this choice. So, then maybe it should be left to the woman? If not, then who?

[Skinless]

Skinless Swan song: I bow out after this. It was just the senseless flame war that got to me.
1. RN: Heroin equals no choice. If you know nothing about that, count yourself very lucky. Stealing, mugging etc takes one form of "courage", letting fat fucks fuck you takes another. Heroin addicts who rob can make a lot of money coz they have to. Heroin is different from anything anyone who does not know of it knows. Joe_Zop will back me up on that. Many prostitutes also have low esteem and their way of life reinforces it. This is seen in places like Thailand all the time and is the reason most of them buy shit jewelry and end up broke and diseased. Many Australain brothels, I believe, ban heroin users, for very good business reasons. The argument/fact that prostitutes make lots of money is as old as the hills and as true for some of them as it is false for more of them. Heroin is different. And so too, perhaps, is a finely tuned caste society. There is NO ESCAPE from either.
2. Joe, you kick off with senseless Liberal shit. These people are beaten before they begin. Go back to your roots, cross those tracks again, pack a switch blade and look around. Wake up and smell the crack cocaine. I don't think we have any basic disagreement on this but I must confess that Liberal "Informed choice" shit sets me off. We are no angels here but we do not have to be devils incarnated. Indeed, on the idea of choice, you now stand full square with AdleZ who says the Thai ladies could do rice paddying, road laboring instead. Please do not think I am flaming you but talk of "informed choice" is red rag stuff to me. I am, of course, into the heart of darkness and I now know exactly where it lies. And, a minor point, I am not a far right nut.
3. I see our Thai Women section has picked up. Posterlion is posting poetry.
4. Now, be good, no more flaming. Ignore anyone near the bridge and don't talk to strangers.

[Rubber Nursey]

"You claim to be a Perth based prostitute and activist. That being so, you should have seen how hollow this "choice" you speak of is. It is certainly not informed choice."

You can't possibly say that taking drugs is not an "informed choice". Granted, I can't speak for people in less developed countries - but everyone in Western countries knows the dangers and consequences of taking drugs. We are all subjected to drug education in schools, 'Just Say No' campaigns on TV and pamphlets in every doctors surgery, legal aid office, welfare office, etc. These people KNOW that drugs may not be the best choice to make - but they go ahead and take it anyway. I have never done drugs (in fact, I am quite 'anti-drugs'), but I believe in a person's right to do as they will with their own body.

"and its consequences, such as prostitution for women who have not the "courage" to steal"

You make it sound like most women would prefer to steal, than be prostitutes! Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, legal or illegal or whether the girl even likes the job or not - prostitution is a viable income option for women. I can steal a TV and get $50 for it from a pawnbroker, or I can have sex with a man and earn $200 an hour. Which option makes more sense if I have a $500 a day heroin habit to finance? No other job provides women with that sort of income, and still allows them time to go to school, look after their kids or hang out with their mates and shoot up.

Once they have made the choice to use drugs, they then have to make the choice of how to support their habit. They may seem to be 'trapped' by the cycle of drugs and prostitution, but the only ones holding them there are themselves. They could always make the choice to give up the drugs and get out of the industry. (Not saying that's easy of course, but it's their choice to make).

[Joe Zop]

Whoa, Skinless, I very specifically said I advocated informed choice, and people having a clear understanding of the consequences of their choices and the ability to change them. I never said that people should just be going out and using heroin or sniffing glue. (I've been with two people on heroin buys -- neither of which I knew was going to happen -- and I have nothing positive to say about anyone at all involved in that scene other than that the immense addictiveness of the drug is sadly very true. One of those situations was probably the most terrified I've been in my entire life.)

I also very clearly have always been talking about the choices of adults, not minors, and I resent both you and DJ spinning my argument otherwise. If I had said or implied as you say, VT would be embracing me as enlightened and on his side as opposed to pouring his own brand of scorn.

I take the basic tack that victimless crimes should not be criminalized -- so if someone wants to smoke dope that should be up to them, even if it's bad for them -- and that people have the right to live their lives as they see fit. Ditto drinking, ditto smoking. Maybe not good choices, but ones that should be available -- and the latter are simply because they're defined as legal. And prostitution falls into that category as well.

Do I think someone is a complete idiot to have a pimp? Absolutely. Do I think, presuming they truly, truly know what they're signing up for and want it, that they should be able to? Yes, I do -- it's their call, not mine. I'm not into S&M either, but if people willingly want to play, that's their call. I want to be advised if people think my choices are stupid, but I don't want someone getting in the way of me making them. If someone chooses to be exploited, and they've got an understanding of what's involved, then it's up to them -- and that's true whether it's being paid a pittiance as a laborer, being in sex films, being a boxer heading for brain damage, or being a prostitute. (And this does not advocate lack of regulation -- people have to also be responsible for impact on others of the choices they make.)

Am I involved in exploiting them? Very possibly, and I completely admit that, as do you. I vote with my dollars, and don't give them to people whose choices I feel are horribly wrong -- I don't sleep with or give money to people who I suspect are going to take it to support a habit or give it to a pimp -- but it's their choice about how they want to live. You cannot stop people from being victims by forbidding them; only by informing them and being in charge of your own behavior. This is an example of our basic political difference -- I've said before that I fall squarely into the left side of the liberal camp, and I know you're on the other end of the spectrum.

You misread me, btw -- I never said I did time; I said I spent time working in a jail. (Sure felt like doing time, though.) I do come from the crappy side of the tracks, though, and the neighbors and friends I grew up with are generally exactly who we're talking about.

And if you felt I dismissed the BB one's pregnancy, I humbly apologize -- that wasn't my intention, and I have absolutely no disagreement with you about a guy who does that, boasts of it, and doesn't live up to his responsibilities. As I've written (and taken lots of crap for) in the American women section, I believe that guys are responsible for the kids they help create, no matter what the scenario.

I'll bow to your request and let the argument with DJ drop and will just ignore him henceforth. It wasn't me who began it, and it's not my interest to hang around this board to engage in flame wars in any event, and never has been.

Finally, VT, I'm sorry, but that story was all over the news and I read extensively about it. Hell, you couldn't escape it. I'm hardly going to apologize for that.

[Dickhead]

mary kay letourneau is a [CodeWord126] and a sick fuck and i think vt has short eyes.

[The Virgin Terr]

i have just one more point to make re. the letourneau case, and then i'll cede this discussion to the other threads taking place. jz, if i was vili i'd be mad as hell at the system also, and i'd be willing to make any cynical attempt to make it pay for what it had done to somebody i cared about. to try to make it pay as it had made mary pay for the "crime" of acquiescing to my seduction of her.

[Skinless]

sorry rn. i am not going to buy into this. i will simply make two points:

1. you and joe_zop are wrong and both of you should know better. you claim to be a perth based prostitute and activist. that being so, you should have seen how hollow this "choice" you speak of is. it is certainly not informed choice. there is also a degree of [CodeWord123]/statutory [CodeWord123] to it. and it is the exact same argument nambla etc make and it is the counter "argument" to what jackson says about having child sex here. by drugs, i mean heroin and that is a different league. joe_zop claims to have done time, to know people from all walks of life, priests etc.
that being so, he must know that to imply doing crack coke/heroin (and its consequences, such as prostitution for women who have not the "courage" to steal) equals choice is to [CodeWord123] the english language.
2. just keep the argument civil everyone. joe_zop has valid points. point 1 is not one of them and i find it very annoying just as i found his dismissal of bb's pregnancy by some selfish lump of australian shit. (i am not being racist but a lump of shit who impregnates a vulnerable woman and boasts of it to his friends and then fucks off back to queensland is a lump of shit) like you (and me), he comes at this board with a particular set of baggage, beliefs and what not. he did meet the infamous adlez and enjoyed his time with him. most of us here will never meet. why not keep it civil and learn from others even if all we can learn is to agree to disagree?
3. ok, a third point. why not? it's not my bandwidth anyway. keep posting joe. your thesis will make some sense eventually but only if you cut that crap about choice. as you well know, playing with words and what if scenarios is a poor substitute for good arguments.
4. on a more serious note, i played some japanese ladies in 4 in a row at bkk airport and did very well out of it.

[Rubber Nursey]

I'm sorry Skinless, DJ, and everyone else who disagrees with Joe's definition of 'choice' - but I agree with him. Freedom of choice also means having the freedom to make the WRONG decisions. A young girl who is kidnapped, beaten, pumped full of drugs and then forced to have sex against her will, wouldn't be viewed by many as working by 'choice'. But what if a girl has CHOSEN to use drugs and then CHOSEN to support her habit with prostitution? What if she CHOOSES to work for a big ugly violent pimp, because she feels safer having him around? I can't say I like the scenario - and it's not one I would choose myself - but it IS her choice to make.

[Rubber Nursey]

Terry - at no point did I say that Joe was more intelligent or compassionate than you, and you know it. I was simply listing some of the qualities of the men I named - as an example of qualities that I find attractive in a man. Did I, at any stage in my post, say that you didn't have those qualities? Did I "blatantly" compare you to those other guys? No.

And I find it hard to believe that you have 'lost' any respect for me - because it's been glaringly obvious for a very long time, that you never had any for me in the first place.

[Skinless]

Joe_Zop and D J: Both of you stop it. Joe, DJ has some valid points (of argument, his flaming you is out of line for many reasons). Your thing of control and choice IS bourgois crap. Korat glue sniffers or others I have met are not exercising choice and it is wrong to believe they or their pimps (fellow glue sniffers) are. And I don not like you saying otherwise bcause that makes you wrong. There IS a very large element of exploitation in all this and you should know that damn well. The BB One, as one example, (yes, her again but others would do equally well) is a victim of her beauty, her lack of education, her all. There are many more like that. Najene and the rest might also be victims but they and we can always walk away and well you know it.

DJ: Joe_Zop has a lot of good things to say. At one stage, he and I were just about the only posters on the Thai Women board. We spoke about mermaids and other important things. Joe_Zop writes for his own reasons, he goes into the Kangaroo and other bars for his own reasons, which are probably as stupid as the reasons we do what we do.

I don't normally post on this board or on the American women board as I have nothing to add to them. Just back off. Joe_Zop has important issues he wants to tease out and, as for the American board, his posts and Miller2k's are a breath of fresh air when compared to the self obsessed whiners who lurk there. If you don't like their converstation, just ignore it like I generally do.

Joe's posts on the Thai section are equaly valuable. He is not a Freeler; he supplies different information but no less valuable for that. Like Freeler, he would be worth meeting, but for different reasons. In that respect, it might be added that only he and the dreaded AdleZ lasted the meeting till the very end (the one you got up in the middle of your US night and toasted).

Joe_Zop is not a pompous ass. He searches for soemthing else. Shit. We have been through this before on the Thai board but in a much more civilized and adult way.

As the great Nibu says: peace, unity, mutual respect and less flaming. OK? END OF THREAD.

[The Virgin Terr]

it should also be pointed out that the "victim" in the mary kay letourneau case was the aggressor in their relationship. he put the moves on her, not vice versa. it's a well documented case, with a movie that's been shown on the usa cable network starring penelope ann miller as the heinous child abuser. her real crime? acknowledging, and surrendering to a politically incorrect attraction. the real predators? the legal system and those who support it that insists that it must not be acknowledged by legally recognized adults that legally recognized children are actual human beings, capable of having sexual desires and possessing sexual attractiveness. oh no, we adults must protect the purity of the youth! even if in doing so we must deny the reality of their feelings as well as ours. it burns my butt that mary kay letourneau is in prison. it should also be pointed out that her "victim" didn't wake up the next day, month, or year and suddenly realize 'my god, i've been taken advantage of by an evil ancient temptress!' he remained adamant in his assertion that he wasn't a victim.

joe zop, i think you're a pompous, politically correct, self righteous jerk for your characterization in the past of non-coercive, harmless individuals like mary kay letourneau as predators.

rn, i'm disappointed in you. it was previously apparent that you favored joe zop over me, but to blatantly imply that he is more intelligent and compassionate is going too far. you've permanently lost some respect in my eyes.

png, i recently met a very attractive woman in a bar who i cautiously approached, because i thought she might be ****. she claimed to be 25. we disagree on age perception. with men it's usually easy to distinguish between 15 and 20, but with women who mature quicker there's little difference in my opinion.

joe zop, i lied. i did glance over your response. as usual, you have or claim to have a detailed acquaintance with the particular example i brought up, and find fault with my claims. acknowledged.

[Rubber Nursey]

Please excuse my recent outburst.

Ok, there's a few too many topics going on at the moment, so I figured I'd just make a comment on PNG's and catch up later.

"Obviously, the rip off girls (take the money and dash) are wrong. But, what about the girls (and services) that take the money and then don't live up to assumed expectations?"

Firstly, I wanted to say that this is not a problem specific to the sex industry. This occurs in business across the board. What about the hairdresser who takes your money, then cuts your hair way too short? What about the doctor who charges outrageous consultation fees, and then refers you somewhere else because he can't work out what's wrong himself? Unfortunately, it's always a case of 'caveat emptor'.

Also, when men are horny, their "expectations" can sometimes be quite distorted. The receptionist says the girl is tall, blonde and busty, and you start picturing yourself having sex with Pamela Anderson. When you open the door and it's not Pammy, or she doesn't give you the porn-star type sex you imagined, etc, you are disappointed. Not saying that's ALWAYS the case of course - but it certainly happens pretty frequently.

[Joe Zop]

Yawn -- Dick Johnson couldn't make a watch change, wouldn't have a clue if it did, and one of the most unchanging things around is Dick Johnson's obsession with the brilliance of the workings of Dick Johnson and his illusion that anyone changes anything based on his peurile postings. You should just go measure your Dick Johnson again, since that makes you happy. I don't need "opportunities to make peace" as I'm not the one who started with personal attacks, and if you think somehow my posting a couple of short responses is something that is brand new and based on your ravings, well, gee, how typical. You call on me to "chill" while posting on a message that's more than a week old and taking some fresh whacks? (Read ahead a bit -- see any other references to you? Clearly, you're the one who's not interested in letting things lie.) Do you tell the temperature outside by looking it up in history books?

Your examples are as ludicrous, meaningless, off-point and as much "fancy gibberish" as what you protest against. A fifteen-year old's choice? Where does that come from -- we were all obviously talking about adults. People old and broke in third-world countries? You're gonna fix that somehow by controlling their choices? Feed the hungry and stop the spread of AIDS worldwide while you're at it, ok? A little bit of regulation is good? Where did I say I was against that?

And your contractual example says nothing -- that's a choice made by a willing participant who understands the consequences of her action -- which is precisely what I advocated.

Work a little harder on that remedial reading course, DJ, and maybe you'll be able read faster and keep up. An ability to actually understand what you read would be a major bonus, but that's no doubt too much to hope for, based on past example.

[Dick Johnson]

Originally posted by joe_zop
Wow, I'm glad I went to bed early (comparatively) before this thread erupted, as this was whack and I'd have no doubt stayed up all night playing! What fun!

But I still see the issue revolving around the twin towers of control and choice. I believe in true and genuine choice, which means people should have the right to make stupid choices also, as long as they're made freely and under scenarios where they understand the options and consequences, and they have enough control so that if they don't like the choice they've made they can make another, and where their choice doesn't unduly affect another. (This is obviously also a perspective that can fit to other areas, such as drug use.) So if a woman actually wants to give some guy a percentage of her income for nothing, understanding that's what it is, (be it PNG's entrepreneur or a significant other, where presumably the "nothing" is offset by other factors) that's certainly her choice. In the classic pimp scenario, though, this is accompanied by pressure and manipulation, which makes it less of a free choice -- clearly, few people are going to willingly do this without believing they're getting something positive in return. In the case of a brothel, a massage parlor, escort service, etc., there are plenty of clear upsides for the woman (in addition to various drawbacks, but that's true in all job situations) so the choices are arguable and defendable. In the case of a pimp (baby, I need some new jewelry) that upside is, as best, vague. And here's the key difference where I disagree with you, PNG -- an entreprenuer who collects a percentage has brought something to the table as well, whether or not they're participating on a daily basis, whether it's the environment, the opportunity, the brand, whatever. The pimp just brings the illusion and implication of such things. Every sex worker ought to be able to hire marketers, bookkeepers, security, anyone they want to work for them. (That's the entrepreneur model I prefer.) While like Dickhead I'm in favor of things being cheap, that doesn't mean I'm not all for every woman being able to make as much as she can.

Also, believing in choice doesn't mean that I don't reserve the right to want to [CodeWord140] on the people who push choices I consider bad -- so while a woman has the right to choose a pimp, that doesn't mean I still don't think the pimp ought to be smacked.

And DJ, screw you, you self-important judgmental prick. I've changed absolutely nothing about my behavior or perspective except my opinion of and interest in engaging you. You're just a guy who craps on the floor, looks up and sees the sun shining, and says, "Wow, see what I did!"

Joe, you need to chill. I already gave you opportunities to make peace on this thread at least once but you seem to be a masochist. Well, joe_zop, I'm not sure if you were happy to go to bed early or was it my appearance on the same thread that scared you away.

Anyway, I find your so called "twin towers of control and choice" to be a mirage at best, and your usual self gratifying "look, I'm so righteous" gibberish at worst. Because it is not reality.

If it is a woman's choice to be with a pimp who takes her money, who treats her like crap, does it make it right just because it is her choice? Some prostitutes love their pimps, even though they are low life to us. What about a pros choice to use coccaine or heroin? Or a 15yr old's choice to sell her body for money? Are these to be encouraged just because it is the women's choice?

Now about control. I've known hos to relinquish control when they sign a contract to go work overseas for two years. They have no control over who they will or will not fuck, no control over the hours they work, no control over their earnings(they are kept by the pimps/managers) and are not allowed to ask for tips. But they tell me it is ok because after their contract is up, they get a chunk of money and go home to build a house. They also don't do drugs or blow their money away shopping or partying like they would if they were at home. One the other hand, it is far from uncommon to see working girls with control end up being old and broke in the sewers in Pattaya or elsewhere or are strung out on drugs.

So choice and control are both unrealistic fancy gibberish. You can't enforce it and you can't encourage it. Perhaps a better way to think is consideration for the women's interest.

A little bit of regulation is good. In many places even if prostituting is legal, solicitating and pimping is not.

On another note, why does joe_zop deny he's changed absolutely nothing about his behavior? Is it because he is self conscious that he did? The fact is that he have changed, and I have made him change. The evidence is in his post right before the one above, on March 5th 8pm. A short one! And now he yells and scream at me like a little baby. Did I make you cry joe_zop? Or perhaps joe_sob? Now he wants to change back to masturbating on and on in his dime store eloquency all over this forum. Why? Because it makes him feel good.