The Morality of Prostitution

[Joe Zop]

Umm, amen, Dickhead, to the extent that's appropriate. I halfway think Denny would agree...

[Dickhead]

Sure wish Denny McLain would have died in his sleep at the peak of his career instead of my man Darryl Kile. Maybe the god in whom I do not believe is a mean and cruel god after all.

[Joe Zop]

VT -- I agree with your delineation of our differences. Your approach is based entirely on the distinction of bodily functions, i.e. using whether or not one is physically capable of having sex and procreating as a fairly absolute dividing line. I do not agree with that because there's also a mental and emotional side to the maturation process, and a reliance on physical puberty doesn't at all deal with that. It's the same as in criminal cases, as far as I'm concerned -- not simply whether someone is physically mature enough to cause harm, but is there a true understanding of their actions or not? We both agree that the equation is fraught with individual differences, but where I'm baffled is your way of thinking that somehow an adult "guiding" these newly defined adults toward sex is ok, but an adult guiding those who are not mature enough away from sex is somehow automatically repressive societal thinking. The bottom line in the equation is what's good for the individuals involved, and there are both positive and negative things about sex in the early to mid-teens.

And Jerry Lee can play at any wedding I'm involved with any time, and I'd happily hoist a glass with him during those times he's hoisting, as he's certifiably brilliant, but he'd best keep his paws off my sisters, given his general interpersonal history :-) I was quick with the response because I've always been a fan of his music, and that whole weird preacher/sinner thing with him and Swaggart is simply fascinating, so I've followed him a bit. (Typical dichotomy for me -- I think of Denny McClain always as the brilliant baseball pitcher I watched as a kid, not as the drug dealer who later emptied out companies of retirement packages and spent half his life in jail.)

In any event, this is absolutely my last post on this in this area. (And I keep saying that...)

[The Virgin Terr]

joe, i'm not advocating for my right or anyone's right 2 screw children. the main point we disagree on and will continue 2 disagree on is the dividing line between juveniles and adults. i think the only scientific and objective measure is puberty, which lasts about 2 years for any particular individual, varying somewhat between individuals, but generally occuring between the ages of 10-14 for females and 12-16 for males. to argue that a sexually mature individual should still be considered a juvenile is absurd in my opinion, but not yours or many other peoples. u again score points as a formidable debater with your quick reply on jerry lee lewis. i didn't know that about him. i was basing my use of his marriage to his 13 year old cousin as an example of a non-predatory relationship involving a minor and a legal adult based upon an interview i remembered seeing of the former "child bride" after their divorce, in which she indicated that their marriage had been a loving one and they had parted as friends. so perhaps in that particular instance jerry lee wasn't such a bad guy.

RN, i'm glad you're back adding your calmer female voice to the discussion. given the great stigma attached to prostitution it must take considerable courage to become a prostitute at any age, and i certainly wouldn't recommend it as a way to introduce any sexually inexperienced person to sex.

[Paddy]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your input. You're right in that my offer almost certainly came across as "payment" and not as a good faith attempt at compensating her for a week of lost wages from her three jobs. She's almost certainly viewing our "relationship" as something more than just a John and a SW. I should have been more sensitive (the wine didn't help) to her possible feelings and viewpoints.

It's becoming apparent that seeing a SW outside of the typical encounter can be a bit more complicated. Special rules and sensitivities must be observed. In retrospect, I should have handled this differently. Thanks again for you insights, Joe.

[Joe Zop]

"As always, there are some selfish, dishonest morons out there who ruin it for all the good guys."

An apt comment that naturally goes in both directions -- there are plenty of us who end up entering into the process in a more guarded and suspicious manner because we've been burned by some kid of "bait and switch" or outright lies from a sex worker in the past. Clearly, the ability to be a dishonest moron isn't restricted by role or sex.

Paddy -- forgive me for diving in here, but it sounds to me as though if you explained your obviously honorable intentions it would probably lead to a conversation that would smooth things over. Especially since you two have had a good relationship. My read on it is this -- she was the one who initiated the idea of the trip, not you, so you paying her way (and presumably her various expenses) essentially completely fulfilled your financial obligation. Your offer of more is in no way a problem other than one of tact and process, where you're trying to be up-front so she'll not worry and she's seeing it as a reminder that she's a working girl. If you were to have given her the same amount of dollars as soon as she arrived with the comment that she could now easily shop or sightsee, you'd have accomplished the same thing, you'd both know where things stood, but she'd not be placed directly and unavoidably in the sex worker role. In visiting you on her initiative, she's putting herself in your hands, and thereby making a far more personal stretch than would normally be involved in such a relationship, so it can be interepreted that she's approaching this as an adventure, vacation or personal interaction as opposed to a work trip. Thus the sturm und drang.

[Paddy]

Hi RN,

Welcome back!!! Have missed you and your unique insights into the feminine psyche.

Could you help me with a problem that I'm having with my lady in Prague? She happens to be a SW there in additon to being a waitress, barmaid, etc.

When I was in Prague last month she stated that she wanted to come to America to visit me for about 5 days. Great. I'll send her the ticket and treat her like a foreign dignitary here. However, when I wanted to "pay" her for her time here in America in lieu of lost wages over there, she became quite upset and angry. I just figured that if she left work over there to be with me in America that she would be out a lot of money and I wanted to compensate her for her lost wages. She has two children that she's supporting. I was just trying to be fair and make things equitable for her. Well, she took it the wrong way and I probably violated some female ethic or principle or something.

Any thoughts or ideas? Your insights about men and women are quite remarkable. Again, welcome back from from all of your "groupies" in America.

[Rubber Nursey]

thanks for the welcome backs guys (and a big hug coming right back at ya traveller)

firstly, i really need to say that my comment to david about *telling* a hooker how your night would go, was said totally tongue in cheek. i didn't really mean to start so much controversy with it, and i totally understand that there is often just as much anticipation (and often disappointment) involved with a visit to a sex worker.

traveller,

ummmm point form may be easier...it's been a horrible day and my brain is not functioning...
a) my main concern with the violence, [CodeWord123], etc is that the younger (and more naive and gullible) the workers are, the more clients are likely to try it on. teen hookers who have not "mastered the art" of negotiation and self preservation in a crisis are abused a lot more regularly than experienced workers. they actually tend to start the fights with their bad attitudes, insensitivity and inability to control a volatile situation. even if an older woman has only just started in the industry, she is less likely to be assaulted because she would look like she can handle herself, she could talk her way out of a violent confrontation and she would probably also know from life experience how to not start a "situation" in the first place.

b) ahhh "real sex". for the record i would like to repeat what i have always said....i always had "real sex" at work, in the sense that you are probably referring to. the only difference between work sex and real sex for me was that my mind rarely got involved. my body always responded in the exact same way as it would with a partner, but my emotions remained intact. and that's not to say that i "switched off" as is usually said about sex workers. (as a matter of fact, i have often been seen with tears rolling down my cheeks after exceptionally good orgasms with clients!) i just understood that this was not someone i loved, not someone that cared about me, not someone that i had a future with, etc...and just did not allow those types of thoughts to enter my head during the booking. in the american women section, usbabe has said that women want to have sex with someone they feel "connected" to...i think she is right in most respects. i do not believe that all women are looking for love, marriage and children, but i do believe we are often "fussier" than men when it comes to sex (usbabe's words, not mine!) a sex worker needs to be able to switch off that particular part of our feminine brains in order to not be hurt by the apparent rejection by the client after the booking. it also helps us to relax and enjoy sex with someone that we do not necessarily feel "connected" to. that was the part i was getting at with the young girls....most do not have the level of sexual maturity to do that i don't think. they either throw themselves in heart and soul and get hurt, or they shut themselves off completely and then give a shocking, cold service.

c) i personally consider sex to be a very nice leisure activity, just as you do. but i believe that young girls see it as something very different. i don't have any problem with teenagers having sex, so long as they are sleeping with someone of the same maturity level who has the same expectations from the experience.

joe,

"it's far easier to know someone's general boundaries and then operate within those, or to discover them as you go along".
that is how i used to run all of my bookings. i would state the one thing that i would not allow under any circumstances, and then pretty much just let things go from there.....see what eventuated. most times it was great fun, and i also got return custom and a few large tips for making it more of a "gfe"...however, i was also ripped off often by men who wanted to get as much as they could get, for as little as they could pay. i think it's sad, but i totally understand why so many women specify the exact service at the beginning and then say "that will cost extra...and please pay me now" to any further requests during the booking. as always, there are some selfish, dishonest morons out there who ruin it for all the good guys.

ps...do you mind if i bring silk scarves instead?? strings would be uncomfortable.... *cheeky grin*

[Joe Zop]

Another welcome back, RN -- I hope the rest of things are as reconnected as your phone :-)

I've got to agree with Traveller that one definite aspect of encounters with prostitutes, from the male perspective, is very much one of wondering how things are going to go. The truth is that unless one is with a regular (and sometimes even then) it's far from certain how things will unfold. That's one of the reasons you see constant discussions on this forum about who provides a GFE -- something actually probably at least if not more prevalent than issues of specific sexual services provided. Some of this is simply normal human concerns about "meshing" on some level (generally that of maintaining the fantasy illusion as opposed to feeling that you're simply the next part to come down the line in production-line screwing) and some of it is definitely "the thrill of the hunt" which is part of the sexual process (and the need for which is the downfall of many a man, I might add.)

Personally, I find it very off-putting to define everything in advance -- ok, we'll start with X and move to Y and end with Z. In those instances I'm constantly aware of the clock ticking, the artificial nature of things, etc. It's far easier to know someone's general boundaries and then operate within those, or to discover them as you go along. (The latter is how normal encounters in life work, which is also why they can contain a higher level of stress, disappointment and unmet expectations in addition to amazing thrills.)

Why do we want strings? The better to tie you with, my dear :-) so we can have our way.

[Traveller]

welcome back to the connected world, rn. hugs too.

from the conversation, it seems clear that in some ways, us guys around here are in some ways approaching the subject from a different part of the room than what you do, and that seems kinda natural.

firstly, i agree with you that in an environment of violence, abuse and police harassment, a sex worker should probably be at least 30, hold a black belt in at least two martial art forms, own a gun and be able to do a 200 lb bench press. i'm not a cop, nor violent and do not consider myself abusive in any way. neither does it seem that most contributors here are any of those things. thus, we probably oversee the kind of problems that less considerate johns are giving girls.

we probably all consider sex a very nice leisure activity, and thus have a vast difficulty in understanding why it can be that not everyone (including girls) think the same. (yes, i am aware that there are all kinds of social and religious biases, they are for real and of course they have to be considered for real when it comes to the effect they have on the sex worker, but then again we do consider those biases all rubbish, don't we?).

when you say you don't go out on a night with a hooker wondering how it will go - "you tell her" - i don't agree at all. yes you do wonder. a lot. will she be one of those 1 in 4 (maybe 1 in 8 now, age has a detrimental effect on the odds i guess), who will be cuddly, friendly and seemingly enthusiastic about all kinds of basic normal bedtime activity, or will she be cold, unwilling to do whatever like kissing, letting you eat her out, etc, and only act as somewhere to offload?

finally, i perfectly well see your need to make a distinction between "real sex" and sex with a worker in order to keep your mental health in order. this is the place we clearly approach the table (or the bed from different directions. again, viewing sex as a very pleasant leisure activity, we do - at the bottom of it all - want real sex!! it is actually there sometimes too (ok - agreed - only a few). and in my experience it has been with young girls - not **** but 19-21 year olds new to the trade. it can sometimes be amazing what happens if you don't bargain for odd "services" or prices, and just activate the antennaes and take in what the girl is comfortable with and what she is not.

i know, and i have expressed here before, that there is a serious concern that such encounters may lead to the "crying in the morning" syndrome - some times it happens and other times not -we gotta take our chanches.

as regards seriously **** girls (heck - i would never really ask whether anyone was 17 or 20 - if i tried to make anyone believe that i would have a very big nose) - i have not knowingly done that since i was 19. as mentioned in an "ancient" post here, i did indeed a couple of years ago have an encounter in a public pool with a bikini-clad 15-year old cutie (kissing, with hands in all the unappropriate places), but i left it at that. she was gorgeous, and would most likely have indulged in "real sex" not knowing better. but i guess she would also have cried in the morning. seriously too. good reason for staying away from further adventures.

so i guess rn, you are right in what you are saying. a pity, but anyway......

[Rubber Nursey]

finally got my phone reconnected! do the phone companies not understand the extent of my internet addiction?? do they not realise i was going through a living hell while they twiddled their thumbs saying "hmmm there seems to be a line fault...we'll send someone out as soon as possible" (read: one week or so)!

anyway....
what's all this **** girl stuff?
i have to agree with joe on this topic. (and that's coming from a divorced, bisexual, pagan ex-prostitute, so i'm not all that conservative! lol) i have no problem at all with teens having sex with teens (so long as they are educated about safe sex, pregnancy, etc)....i can live with older teens having sex with young adults (eg. a 16 year old with a 21 year old boyfriend) so long as boundaries are respected and they have the same level of aforementioned education....but i can't really condone older men having sex with teens in most circumstances and i am totally opposed to teenagers becoming sex workers.

sure, sex is natural and all, but it shouldn't be looked at as a simple bodily function or a leisure activity. as well as the massive health risks for someone who is sexually naive, sex has a very large emotional aspect to it and our sexuality (or our perception of it) has a huge impact on our lives as a whole. a "warped sexuality" can lead to self esteem issues, poor body image, relationship problems, etc....some people's lives are irreparably damaged by a "bad" sexual experience. that is the main reason why i don't believe young people should become prostitutes (i have stated before that the legal age should perhaps be even higher than 18...don't jump on me about it 'coz i know it would never happen, but that's my opinion). "sex" as a prostitute is very different to "sex" in real life. i firmly believe that women (and men) need to have a complete understanding and appreciation of what "real" sex is, before they can have sex as a sex worker. if you can't make that distinction in your mind (and switch between the two depending on who you are having sex with) it leads to all sorts of sexual and psychological problems. i don't believe that most teenagers have the experience or the emotional maturity to cope with that...no matter how "grown up" they appear to be.

also, as jackson said in the "****" section of the old forum, there is a big difference between a teen getting married (and receiving love and trust and support from her husband) and a young girl coping with the abuse, violence, std's, police harrassment and other risks that are commonly associated with working in the sex industry. anyway, i'm sure lots of you will disagree with me, but that's my two cents on the matter. i think joe is right though...this discussion shouldn't really be happening in here when there is a specific section devoted to it in the editorials section.

david,
re: paying for affection rather than (or in addition to) sex.
like you said, affection is not always guaranteed on a "real" date. the great thing about the sex industry is that you don't go out with a hooker wondering how the night is going to go....you tell her how the night is going to go! lol

dickhead,
re: why does anyone want to get into the head of a sex worker?
i totally agree! i mean, i do think it is wonderful that these guys want to gain an understanding of "how the other half lives" so to speak, and i guess that having an understanding of the sex workers themselves may help to improve the quality of future services, etc...but i do find it odd that there is so much "how do i make it better for her" type discussions in here. also there have been a lot of requests for "inside" information (of the sort that i refused to give stardotstar a while back). i sometimes fear that giving away too much information will somehow damage the fantasy aspect of the industry, and i often wonder why it is that even though clients have the offer of no strings attached sex....they seem to want to add strings to it!! lol

[Joe Zop]

Originally posted by the virgin terr
joe, by singling out sexual relationships as completely distinct from all other type of relationships, subject to uniquely negative interpretations, u do the same thing anti-prostitution zealots do. one may pay a person for any kind of service other than sex.

Not true at all -- child labor laws are another example of where we draw such distinctions, where we consider that those are relationships where the age of those involved requires a degree of protection for the child from exploitation by adults. For every example of the so-called "good" experience it's possible to come up with a bad one, and example of a teenager exploited by an adult into a negative sexual experience, so I'm not certain what that proves. But it's mind-boggling that you would choose Jerry Lee Lewis as an example of excellence, given that he was first married at sixteen, that that 13-year old third wife was his cousin and was someone he divorced before she hit her mid-twenties, and that he's not only known as a wife-beater but strongly suspected to have murdered his fifth wife and possibly another...

And there's decidedly one aspect of this discussion I'm finding tiresome and annoying, and that's your misquoting of my statements and position. Please go back and read what I actually wrote -- I did not "blanketly state that "adult"-teen relationships are 'predator-prey' " as you say I did. I wrote "if you go after someone in their early teens the odds are that you comprehend the choices and consequences far more than they." I also wrote, "there are 14-year-olds mature enough to make this decision, but I don't know that they're the majority." Your shifting of my position is a straw-man way of placing me in an extremist position, and it makes for a rather disengenuous exchange of ideas. The fact that you feel you need to devolve into hyperbole by painting my position as zealotry because I don't particularly agree that you ought to have the unfettered "right" to screw kids, when in fact my position is far more liberal than mainstream laws or thought, says far more about you than me. I have no huge problem with the Dutch approach, as I've stated before -- you want to marry that 14-year-old, and her parents concur, then fine. And since you object to my position because I'm providing "uniquely negative" positions, let me, in turn, point out that you're doing precisely the opposite and present only the positive aspects. If this is an inappropriate way to argue, then it's so on both sides of the coin.

I've no issue or problem whatsoever with you expressing your " 'non-respectable' controversial, unfettered ideas" as long as you don't take that ability to mean that I've got no right to disagree.

And, again, in the last, you've twisted what I said -- I said I'm more than happy to discuss this, but that it's off-topic for this thread. Anonymouse has pointed out the proper area for this discussion -- in the editorial area, and I'm perfectly willing to continue it there. And the fact that I don't happen to agree with your position here has no bearing on my degree of "sexual liberation" which again is a rather silly and completely uninformed personal slap.

[Joe Zop]

Originally posted by anonymouse
It appears that you believe no young girls willing enter into prostitution.

I've no idea where that comes from -- I've said no such thing at any point in the discussion, and it flies in the face of what we all know to be the facts.

And nowhere anywhere have I said anything about having an issue with someone's willingness to enter into prostitution based on age -- though I'm not someone who would feel particularly comfortable breaking not only those laws about prostitution but also age of consent, as, among the other aspects we've been discussing, the latter laws have decidedly greater potential consequences.

I've in fact stated repeatedly in this forum that I'm in favor of people choosing to do whatever they like, and that I'm in favor of teens making informed choices.

[The Virgin Terr]

btw, when i was a young teen i would have loved it if some "ancient" woman twice my age had "preyed" upon my little "innocent " ass. it could have done wonders for my confidence.

[The Virgin Terr]

joe, by singling out sexual relationships as completely distinct from all other type of relationships, subject to uniquely negative interpretations, u do the same thing anti-prostitution zealots do. one may pay a person for any kind of service other than sex. by the same reasoning you're saying an "adult" may have any kind of relationship with a "non-adult" except for a sexual one. what is it about sex that makes people so irrational? why must sex be treated like a disease we can't entirely avoid but are obligated 2 condemn and repress? 2 blanketly state that "adult"-teen relationships are "predator-prey" relationships is like saying all prostitutional encounters involve exploiters and exploitees. like i said previously, there have been many relationships between "non-adults" and adults, completely consensual, often resulting in children and lifelong partnerships. just as 2 examples from the field of famous musicians, jerry lee lewis married his 13 yr old cousin, and loretta lynn at the age of 13 married an "adult", and they're still 2gether now 50 years later. it makes more sense to say that teenagers may benefit from having older more experienced "adults" introduce them to the fine arts of lovemaking and intimate relationships than it does to take the position you have, although your position is certainly more "respectable" and less controversial. isn't the idea of this forum in part to allow the expression of "non-respectable" controversial, unfettered ideas?

anyhow, if u want 2 drop it i shall also. until "adults" become sexually liberated themselves, these more controversial questions are too volatile, as this debate/argument attests to.