The Morality of Prostitution

[Joe Zop]

Dickhead -- yes, I've been to the Netherlands several times. According to www.ageofconsent.com and other places, those from the ages of 12-16 *can* consent, but they, in concert with their parents, can also bring a legal complaint against an adult. (It's unclear what happens if parents complain and the child says they consent.) I bow to your knowledge on the age of entering into the profession; I was going by my reading of laws quoted in several places which say that "traffic in persons" occurs in regard to a person under the age of 16.

Regardless, I'm far from encouraging anyone to get involved with anyone below 18!! That was clearly not the thread of the conversation.

Philip -- why not create a new variation on your user name and see if that will do the trick? Use an underscore as I have or some such trick so we'll all know it's you. I empathise with your frustration, but hope you don't give in to it. You might also try cleaning out your machiine's temp files and cookies -- there's little doubt it's something on your machine, as it was on mine, and these darn things have gotten so complex it's nigh impossible to try to track down where the offending gremlin might be hiding...

[Philip Augustus]

Joe:
Thanks for your kind words! I don't want to leave but this is driving me nuts.

This problem started when I already had cookies set at No-No, I put it to No-Yes to see if improved things, which it didn't. Putting it back to No-No now. I can't see any correlations at all. At least 80% of my post attempts fail due to infinite looping, apparently at random.

[Dickhead]

Actually, JZ, I don't know if you've ever BEEN to The Netherlands, BUT ...

It is legal to VISIT a prostitute at 16. To legally BE a prostitute you must be 18. And, the age of consent is only 12 IF the parents do not object; otherwise it is 16.

So let's be careful out there.

Dickhead

[Joe Zop]

Philip -- I've had the same problem as you, at times. What I do is go into the forum control panel under options and turn all the cookie options to "no" and this seems to take care of things. I've found that at some point, usually after a week or so, I can change things back and they work again. I suspect it has to do with how this board stores cookies, but haven't tracked it down. I agree that the endless loop is frustrating -- you appear to be logged in, write your message, and then nothing. But I think the overall quality of conversation on this board has improved, and your posts disappearing would definitely leave a hole. I hope my suggestion will work for you and that you'll reconsider.

[Philip Augustus]

yes, statutory [CodeWord123] charges against a 16-year-old with a 15-year-old girlfriend are an abomination. we get this sometimes here, and it results in huge public pressure on the prosecution authorities to get a life and go catch some crooks instead.

good point, do adults tell children about the obligations incumbent on an adult citizen of civil society, or do they tell them, “it’s ok for us but not for you, nyah nyah nyah”?

in contexts such as the un fussing over “child soldiers” – often no younger than many of our parents who joined up to fight hitler – many jurisdictions operate with a binary categorisation of “child”/”adult”, with 18 as the watershed. this is absurd, we need a tripartite classification of “child”, “adolescent” (or “young adult” etc.) and “full adult”, with the breaks at perhaps 13 and 21. lots of other societies have done this.

if i can get this post through at all, it will be my last. for the first weeks of the new board everything was fine, but now i get endless loops of log-in – welcome philip augustus – submit – you are not logged in – log-in -- welcome philip augustus – submit – this is not a valid thread – restart board – log-in -- welcome philip augustus – submit – you are not logged in. no reply from jackson. enough, already.

so “goodbye and thanks for all the fish”. give rn my regards when she turns up. happy punting, happy crusading, happy chatting. been nice knowing you.

[Joe Zop]

ah, vt, don't want to put you on the defensive, and i certainly agree with you about the us and its desire to imprint behavior and morality patterns on the world. particularly now that those patterns are more conservative. let's simply acknowledge that using the us as a yardstick is, well, using yards when the rest of the world uses meters...

that said, i've got to disagree with you again, this time regarding the encouragement of sexual activity among teens. i applaud the dutch statistics, as it says to me that in a society where sex is open, obvious and discussed, teens have the ability to make choices they deem proper without being channelled into either a kind of "bad dog" celibacy or a "hey you're young, go for it" active state. the age of consent in the netherlands is 12, and teens actually have the ability to become legal prostitutes at 16, so it's not as if there's an overarching legal pressure to stay celibate, as there is here (where there's an embarrasing number of statuatory [CodeWord123] cases when one kind is a year older than the other, with the latter being below the age limit.) to me, the essence of choice is defined by the context and knowledge conveyed, and the degree of freedom to choose that's given, not what the specifics of the choices made happen to be.

by the same token, i don't know all that many kids in their early to mid-teens (and i know quite a few) who are emotionally mature enough to fully understand the full nature of sexual relationships, which certainly go beyond the "damn, that feels good" level. i've got a niece who's now fifteen and who's been sexually active since twelve, and the lesson she's gotten from sex (and this is as she stated it to me) is that if she's old enough to do what adults do physically then she's old enough to do anything she pleases, as that's what adults do. i've spent time working in schools, and it's frightening the number of thirteen-year old girls who want to get pregnant as quickly as possible because a baby will make them be grown up. yikes!

i'm in favor of people who have the ability to truly understand the consequences of their choices, no matter what their age or circumstance, having the ability to make those choices. (that "truly" is, of course, potentially a big caveat.) we are all ultimately the captains of our own ships, and we'd best learn how to sail them. but setting out to go around the world (to painfully extend this metaphor...) without proper understanding and preparation is tantamount to suicide, and by the same token, encouraging someone to set out on such a journey who is unprepared has the potential to be criminal.

[The Virgin Terr]

i've never been 2 switzerland, p.a. know a little about it , of course. i get a weekly newsletter which keeps me well informed of what's happening in the world of drug reform and the on-going "war on drugs". most of europe it appears is much more tolerant, particularly re. marijuana. the u.s. to my disgust continues 2 attempt 2 bully other nations towards the harsh intolerance and severe criminal penalties we have here, officially.

mexicans did strike me as being friendlier and more down-to-earth than most americans. perhaps wealth gives us "bourgeois" attitudes, at least many of us.

from what i know of dutch society, most of the rest of the world ought to be following in their footsteps. i too was aware of the comparative statistics re. teen pregnancy. i wasn't aware that dutch teens are less sexually active, or become sexually active at a later age. if so, that surprises me and frankly goes against my own ideal, which is that adolescents should become sexually active early, with the knowledge, guidance and support of older adults. this is a bit off topic, but i do feel very strongly that we should do this, instead of preaching abstinence and forcing young people into clandestine and often risky behavior, and i also feel that adolescence is a crucial opportunity for developing either positive or negative attitudes about sex, which may last a lifetime. if we're ever to break the generational cycle of puritanical hypocrisy, we must stop attempting to force or intimidate our youth into mandatory celibacy.

although the dutch and some others have become more tolerant of prostitution, i'm sure they have a long way to go in ending the social stigma. as you may know the u.s. laws prohibit foreigners with prostitution records from entering the u.s. again, the u.s. does what it can to dissuade countries like holland from becoming more tolerant. anyway, my point is that one can't judge how women would react under a society which was truly free and tolerant, because there aren't any which come that close. you've forced me a bit on the defensive on this one, joe, but i prefer to maintain my faith that with some extreme radical social change, we humans are capable of becoming rather similar to our close relatives the chimpanzees, who are well known for having a whole lotta sex.

[Philip Augustus]

Terry:
LOL! Mountains and prostitutes. Good combination. Some dangers, but you know where you are with them, and get healthy exercise and some great views…. I know Switzerland a little. News to me that they’ve legalised marijuana, but then I don’t smoke. What part of the country do you know best? Of course, Switzerland is no place to live for people who have trouble with bourgeois social codes. I’ve lurked a little in the Mexican sections, but I don’t think I’ve ever met a Mexican….. Never been to Thailand, it’s far too hot for me, but I’ve met Thais in Switzerland and here. And Brazilians here and in the Iberian countries.

I do know what you’re trying to do, Terry. You think that because meeting a provider short-circuits a lot of social bullshit, you can deploy your good qualities to better advantage, and that they will appreciate you because you’re a nice guy and treat them kindly. I used to speculate in that direction myself, though my friends were very sceptical. A provider once agreed that they are less impressed by surfaces than amateurs – before breaking my heart.

Joe:
English tabloids STILL use the word “naughty”, which tells us a lot. They also use “vice girl”, but that’s partly because “prostitute” is such a long and difficult word….. “Naughty vicar in vice girl shock”, that sort of thing. At the same time, a lot of students are hooking their way though college, which means that in twenty years’ time some top professionals will be ex-providers, it will be interesting to see what effect that has. In fact, of everywhere I’ve been, the UK (outside London) has the best NATIVE workers, whereas in other West European countries the locals are often cold or junkies. What a paradox.

[Joe Zop]

Terry, the asterisks are just for emphasis -- an old habit from the days before web pages, when that's how it was done :-)

I suspect you'd like Amsterdam, as everything's very straightforward there, though very often definitely done according to the clock. Not all that expensive a trip from the states. Places like Thailand are a good deal more like Mexico in terms of unofficial tolerance as opposed to outright legalization, and things are a bit more casual there in that it's pretty easy to get someone to stay with you for longer periods of time. It might, though, be a rather dangerous place for you emotionally, as there are a lot of folks who lose their heads, hearts and wallets over there because they're treated so differently from what they're used to by the women there. "Patpong Sisters" is a nice read; you might also take a look at "Private Dancer" by Stephen Leather, which is a free download (www.stephenleather.com) -- it's not as well written imho, but it gives a nice sense of the underlying tensions therein. Given your experience with Mexico, I'd think that Brazil would appeal to you greatly as well, as I'd say similar aspects to Thailand are present, with the cultural and sensibility differences not being quite as large.

While I agree with you that women are more physically at risk in the sexual equation, I simply don't see the removal of the stigma of prostitution as being the balm that suddenly makes the female population think of their orifices as equivalent to cash machines or turns them into raving sexaholics who suddenly feel the urge to sleep with guys who they previously wouldn't. Clearly, there's been a lot of change in sexual attitudes in western society over the last forty years or so, and things are far more tolerant than they used to be, but I just don't see the criminalization of prostitution, much as I disagree with it, as being the big shackle that holds back the rest of the revolution that's keeping women from sleeping with guys they're otherwise not sleeping with. I truly wish that were the case, but I just don't see it that way.

I do, however, think decriminalization can help a society take another look at its mores and assumptions, and there are some very interesting things out there on how attitudes have shifted in the Netherlands. But it's not a headlong dash into utopia nor am I aware of any study that says that overall sexual activity goes through the roof. In fact, most studies I've seen say that US teenagers of 18 or 19, for example, are far more likely to have had multiple sexual partners in the last year than their European counterparts (which probably also helps account for the higher US rates in AIDS, pregnancy, syphillis, etc.)

Clearly, though, a healthy discussion has positive results, as the Netherlands, which has an aggressive and open display not only of available sex but of available and public sex education, has the lowest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe, far, far lower than the US, as well as a later general age for beginning sexual activity. There a far more healthy attitude overall toward discussing sex in Dutch society in general than you'll find in Britain or the US. It's possible that may be related to decriminalization, if only because the clear and visible nature of the sex trade means the Dutch must be more active in their educational efforts, as there's no avoiding the issue.

[The Virgin Terr]

responding 2 the rest of your letter, joe, i agree that [CodeWord123] isn't about sex per se; but i do think a world which didn't criminalize consensual sex or other consensual behavior would be such a nicer world to be a human in that the social conditions which create [CodeWord127] to begin with would for the most part no longer exist. same for terrorists, and all other sorts of ant****ial behavior.

i admire your ability 2 get along with those with whom u disagree, but i guess i'm just not built that way. views which i vehemently disagree with necessarily alienate me 2 the extent that i can't trust a person from which they proceed. without trust, there can be no friendship or respect. since most people hold such views, my world is necessarily quite lonely.

[The Virgin Terr]

i had 2 cut the previous letter short for fear of losing it. picking up where i left off: had some sweet times in mexico, where, in case u didn't know, prostitution is "tolerated" within certain zoned areas of their cities. it's de facto legalization, or decrim, and given the latitude of freedom with which the women there may operate, and their inexpensive rates due to the relative poverty of the country, it was a paradise for me compared 2 america. the worst aspect of it was the language barrier, but that wasn't such a big deal. it would have been nice however to have been able to communicate much more comprehensively with the girls in order to discover which ones i could have enjoyed intellectual companionship with as well. again, if i had the money, i would conduct a search for a prostitute with whom i could develop a complete and comprehensive relationship with, someone with an abundance of physical beauty, libido, intelligence, iconoclasm, and thirst for adventure and knowledge.

never checked out the scenes in europe and asia. i'd definitely like to check out places like the philippines and thailand. there's a book titled PATPONG SISTERS written by a sexy american female grad student who lived in bangkok while doing research on prostitution there. she enjoyed herself immensely there, lived like a queen on her student stipend because things were so cheap. good book.

j.z., why do u place asterisks *around* certain words in your posts? re. how decrim. would impact the amount of sexual activity in society, perhaps my personal viewpoint is skewed. i know i would certainly get laid alot more, as i'm sure alot of other guys would also, but i think what might surprise alot of people would be how much this would expand things for women in general, who need more reasons or encouragement than men to overcome their naturally more inhibited nature, and the physical risks posed by contraceptives, pregnancy, increased vulnerabilty to HIV infection, and emotional issues (sorry, RN, women r different from men, in ways which dispose them towards lesser sexual activity). this is idealistic, but decrim if it happened would necessarily be accompanied by much greater acceptance of sexual freedom and promiscuity in general, and that alone would make a huge difference in helping women break free from current restrictions and be empowered to make choices which most under current conditions can't or won't do, such as accepting money for sex. perhaps decrim wouldn't result in most sex occuring under conditions of prostitution, but undoubtedly it would lead 2 a huge increase overall in the amount of sex people would engage in.

the virgin terry

[The Virgin Terr]

i'm too computer illiterate to know what the hell u guys r talking about in reference 2 saving messages. i just need 2 keep mine shorter and accept it if they occasionally get lost. some of the messages which get posted here r 2 long anyhow.

come on, p.a., don't be so paranoid! u can at least give your country's name. r u afraid the frigging morality police r going 2 hunt u down and flog u in public for being such a shameless punter? if i were wealthy enough and had time enough 2 travel the world, 2 countries in europe i'd check out r the netherlands and switzerland, because both have effectively legalized my favorite recreational and therapeutic drug, marijuana, and i love mountains and prostitutes. if i didn't have such a case of social anxiety, i could probably enjoy a carefree hippie life bumming around the world, checking out alternative lifestyle communes and finding a place where i'd belong.

i lived in the american southwest near the mexican border for a few years, and it is with mexican women that i've had most of my experience with prostitution. mexico seems to be saturated with very young and attractive ladies, perhaps because they still have a relatively high birthrate so their population isn't aging like america's.

[Philip Augustus]

terry:
although i agree with joe on the relationship between amateur sex, prostitution and [CodeWord123], i know what you mean about punting breaking down shame and insecurity; i think you might make even more headway against that if only you lived in a different jurisdiction, without, as you say, criminalisation and stigma. have you been in the big european, asian and latin american honeypots?

i’d rather not specify my location too precisely, if you don’t mind: i’ve cheated somewhat by citing examples from both this country and some of its neighbours, creating a composite. let’s just say northern europe?

joe:
after height the most desirable male characteristic is probably confidence, which is where both terry and i crash and burn – i’m not actually that hideous, which is why i prefer the differently-charismatic to the otherwise-attractive label. but hey, an inability to blow one’s own trumpet and strut one’s stuff should count as a disability too. the thing i like about brothels is that they have to do the advertising and competing, not me.

[Joe Zop]

again, i don't have the same generally nihilistic view that you do, terry, nor do i at *all* think that legalizing prostitution would do anything to affect [CodeWord123] (which is not about sex but power and control) but i can empathise with your issues of self-confidence, as i think that's a universal chord. i'm not sure i'd go so far as you to saying that legal prostitution would become the most common form of consensual sex -- i think that basic human relationships, which, despite the impression one might get from reading this board, do exist and can be healthy and happy for both partners, are still and would remain the core and common aspect of life. we've not seen a disappearence of those relationships in places like the netherlands where prostitution is legal and readily available, for instance.

i also don't see all or even most women deciding their attractiveness translates into a meal ticket in that scenario. some might, of course. people want different things out of life, so while some might see dollar signs, others might simply see lack of stigma, and most will still be on the quest to be loved, cherished, and simply less alone in the world.

personally, i find confidence, attractiveness and self-esteem are all related to outlook (though i'm not at *all* discounting the truth of philip's differently attractive situations.) i'm generally a depressive -- runs in my family -- but i've definitely found that if i go through life defining people as having negative designs on my freedoms (which clearly many do) then i see only the bad side of them (which everyone including me has) as opposed to their positive aspects. there are very few people i've run into, including the most fanatic, who i don't find i can engage in a healthy conversation about our differences in perspective, and where i can't affect either some degree of change or at least greater understanding. it's work, and you don't put a light-bulb on in someone's head, but you can affect gradual perspective changes, and that's how all of us develop our attitudes toward things. and if nothing else, by figuring out what's good about them and appealing to it, you challenge someone to either go in that direction of increase their level of self-loathing (not that many won't choose the latter.)

don't get me wrong -- i'm not some sort of guileless happy idiot; i back down from confrontation *far* less often than i ought to, and i get pissed off as well, but in general i've found that my indignation or anger, except in scenarios of imminent danger, are counterproductive to helping develop those things or environments that i want. i figure the way to fight the intolerent is by being as ultimately tolerant as i can, including toward them.

philip -- your explanation regarding the disabled decidedly helps explain how you've been couching your quest for recognition of the differently attractive. i suspect, unfortunately, in the current climate of beauty worship that it's a decidedly uphill battle (just read through the "fat" diatribes in the american women section for starters) not that it's not an important issue and one worth highlighting. to me, it brings up that entire issue of "thrownness" which i've referenced before in terms of priviledge -- it's not as though i did anything to become american, white, male and tall as opposed to, say, short, female, an african of the luo tribe, whose chances for escape from or rising above my circumstances are decidely more problematic.

but by the same token, the male obsession with issues of female beauty as defined by the culture (young, thin, big breasts, a general category of facial features) does anything but reinforce that as well. juliet's past comments in regard to "competing" on the attractiveness scale are very appropriate. we're all conditioned by culture -- the question is, what do we do about it.

and, for what it's worth, my method is to always copy longer responses into my computer's memory (ctrl-a and then ctrl-c for pc users) before i hit submit. that way i don't lose things unless my system crashes, which generally doesn't happen.

[The Virgin Terr]

i had a dream this a.m. which has connected a few threads recent to this discussion. it involved a gorgeous young woman i know. in it, i was able 2 eat her out, but still lacked the confidence 2 go a step further, the ultimate step of intercourse. this brings up what i perceive as my main problem in life and particularly with relating 2 women; lack of confidence. i'm sufficiently physically attractive and intelligent 2 succeed with women: my downfall is and always has been related 2 profound personal insecurity. activity with prostitutes has certainly helped overcome that 2 some degree, but thanx 2 criminalization and the resultant scarcity, stigma, and expense of indulging has prevented me from conquering this problem. i believe in a world where prostitution were decriminalized, it would be the most common form of heterosexual relationship and virtually eliminate sexual problems such as mine. it would also virtually eliminate the problems women most frequently have with men which have also been discussed here; i.e. being taken advantage of by suave deceitful charmers, as such naivete would be rare in a world where sex was freely enjoyed and it's benefits to all openly known. it would be a rare woman indeed who would consider her attractiveness to men a curse when that attractiveness becomes a reliable meal ticket instead of a lure for manipulative losers.

as i've gotten older and learned the ways of the world so to speak my confidence problem has shifted in focus somewhat away from myself towards my fellow humans. beings which are stupid and sadistic enough 2 criminalize something as beneficial as consensual sex, (and make no mistake about it, decriminalized prostitution would become the most common form of consensual sex, and nonconsensual sex would be virtually eliminated), are difficult 2 perceive as being inherently attractive psychologically. hence the evolution of my perception that we humans are a spiritual cancer which should and eventually will become extinct if we don't mend our ways.

i'm curious, p.a., where do u live?

the virgin terry