The Morality of Prostitution

[Philip Augustus]

Terry:
My sympathies; I get around that by writing in Word offline, logging on, logging in, and pasting. I understand your position on lack of good sex leading to lack of love and perhaps thence to war, but we’ll have to agree to differ on that one.

Joe:
Funny how fundamentalist loonies are quite all right as long as they’re not Muslim fundamentalist loonies, isn’t it? Apropos your wish to teach “what the standard ranges of human sexual response and processes happen to be, physiological differences based not only on pregnancy but on human sexual response”, I am reminded of Camille Paglia’s insistence that a feminist should know something of biology, physiology, endocrinology and neurology before pontificating about men and women. In both cases it will be a fight, as Western liberals have been bamboozled by generations of social-constructionism. These may be positive to sex, but they still don’t understand it. Human nature in general and sexual nature in particular is not what either religious or secular Pollyannas want it to be.

“What do I think about the possibility of getting sex workers officially reclassified as health care workers?” Where I live we’re practically there – as regards professional sexual services for the disabled, but only for the disabled. This is not due to any re-evaluation of prostitution in general, but simply because two different flavours of political correctness have collided head-on. The disabled man’s rights to sexual experience take precedence, and everyone somehow contrives to “forget”, in this context alone, that this is “the sale of women’s bodies”.

[The Virgin Terr]

i just wrote a really long fucking message which got lost when i had to go back on line because my isp automatically disconnects after an hour of inactivity. doesn't that just [CodeWord140] me off? that doesn't happen when i do e-mail, losing the message i mean, while going back on-line. anyhow, now that wisdom is lost to the ages. in short, i agreed with u joe about the lack of social support for pleasurable, responsible sex, particularly for teenagers, which is why they have the highest rates of std's and unwanted pregnancies. i disagreed with u, phil, in that while sexual repression may not physically kill us it does much harm to our psyches and our ability to love one another, and it is the lack of love which i refer to as the spiritual basis for our self destructiion, regardless of how it may physically manifest, i.e. nuclear war.

[Joe Zop]

Philip -- I agree with Juliet regarding anti-heterosex feminazis; they've always been a rather vocal minority in any event. I wish her sense of the religious right spread beyond those large cities, as in the heartlands their anti-sex crusades are quite powerful, and their grassroots political agenda revolves around control of local school boards. Hence there is still a fair amount of pressure on sex-education measures, ranging from abstinence campaigns to anti-abortion scare tactics (nothing like showing school kids pics of aborted fetuses, eh?) to the ever-popular attempts to either not teach evolution or include faith-based theories as well. Always good to have the local Montessori school also host fire and brimstone teachings on the shortly upcoming apocalypse (based on the fact that it's Sodom and Gemorrah out there), as happens where I live...

And my statement wasn't simply about a lack of pro-sex information (I can go into any bookstore and find something) but about the corresponding lack of structural or institutional societal support. I don't disagree with you that there's a fair amount of pro-sex propaganda, but here it's generally very targetted at folks who are already enlightened as opposed to being a mainstream aspect of "happy person building." It's for "liberal intelligentsia" as opposed to those who are without much of either liberality or intellgensia :-) I'd like to see it be dealt with as part of the sex education process (though that will never happen) so not only do you learn how babies are made and the specifics of various organs from a biological perspective, you learn what the standard ranges of human sexual response and processes happen to be, physiological differences based not only on pregnancy but on human sexual response. I'd like to see a scenario where marriage counselors easily can just send someone to sex counseling as a normal, non-shaming and inexpensive way of ceasing to fuck up their relationship because they're not properly fucking up each other. While the absolute stigma about being part of a species that actually has sex once in a while has subsided, I think it's a long way to say that the other side of the coin is the one facing up.

This doesn't, of course, in any way whatsoever conflict with your quest for the differently attractive, and I completely agree with you about doctors. But of course their method is usually to deliver the news about what you need to do, and, unless it's via a pill or a knife, they're generally not very helpful about the how.

Hmm -- what do you think about the possibility of getting sex workers officially reclassified as health care workers? :-) After all. if it's what the doctor ordered... and I'd love to have insurance coverage as well, thank you very much. O Nursey, I've got a prescription that needs filling!

[Philip Augustus]

i’m totally with terry about punting being a cure for sexual shame, but despite the possibility that we have suffered from the same kind of damage, i don’t feel as vindictive as he does; and agree with joe that if we go extinct, it won’t be because of sexual repression, however hard this has been on individuals.

joe’s suggestion that we suffer from a shortage of pro-sex propaganda, however, puzzles me greatly. juliet insists to me that no one in the us takes the anti-heterosex feminazis seriously any more, and the religious right don’t impinge on her big city either. where i live there is a daily newspaper appealing to the liberal intelligentsia that is forever doing features on erotic massage and improving your sex life. we have gay marriage. and the general ethos here is positive to all forms of sexuality except [CodeWord123], ****philia -- and paying for it.

i’d prefer to turn this around: the person who is invisible in all this entertainment, discussion and propaganda is not the one who is having lots of healthy sex, but the one who isn’t, because he or she is not very desirable. if i appear to bang on about this a lot, well, rn has her crusade for the dignity of the sex worker, and i have mine for the residual humanity, in the teeth of all the prejudices, of the differently attractive. “if you prick us, do we not bleed, if you tickle us, do we not laugh”?

ever noticed how doctors think they can tell us to “have sex” or “start a sexual relationship” the way they can tell us to eat more broccoli? whatever they might have known in civilian clothes about unequal access to sex is magically removed from their brains by the white coat. of course, as doctors they’re ipso facto sexy themselves, so what do they know about how the other half lives? a hundred years ago they would have advised us to visit prostitutes, which they can’t do now, because le and/or pc would get them; so they give us advice which is as cruel as telling the wheelchair user to go jogging.

[Joe Zop]

And your reports and advice on all this are where, exactly? Lots of folks in this thread are frequent contributors elsewhere in the forum. People having a philosophical discussion here in no way negatively impacts your desire to pay to get laid.

VT -- unfortunately, whether sex is seen as dirty or not, we're far more likely to procreate our way into oblivion than any other way, I think.

But your post does bring up a big issue -- in this age when sex education is now available in schools (unlike when I grew up) and there's far more information available, where is the institution or process that talks about the healthy aspects of sex? We all know that the two major causes of marital breakups are sex and money, but with the exception of various self-help books and the occasional Doctor Ruth column there's still a dearth of discussion about healthy sex drives or relationships. And, from what I can tell, that's pretty much true cross-culturally, and cross-gender. Comments?

[The Virgin Terr]

my participation as a prostitute client has changed me alot. it's helped me overcome sexual shame and perceive women as sexual beings also. in contemplating criminalization and the harm it brings to people who are simply trying to meet their own needs, i can only know bafflement and feel rage for those who advocate it. desire for godlike power to be able to destroy them who i perceive as inhuman and unspeakably vicious and evil. i'll be going to my grave alienated from the mainstream of humanity, and this particular issue as much or more than any other explains why. those who think sex is "dirty" and sexual freedom immoral are in my mind an abomination, and i trust that eventually nature will rid herself of humanity if humanity persists in condemning itself for it's own sexuality.

[Philip Augustus]

To Joe:
Thanks! Sounds as if ILY is Thai shorthand for a certain sort of strategic alliance that, like the best alliances, is of benefit to both sides. Some cultures, including I believe the Judaism of Jesus' day, have the institution of very short-term "marriage", which is what this sounds like; Catholic marriage is a much longer-term strategic alliance, whereas other Western marriage falls somewhere in the middle. However, the Western ILY doesn't really tell us much about the terms of the deal, does it?

Going back to the Missourian approach, I forgot to mention that I can say ILY unsolicited -- though I hardly ever do -- but being asked to say it freezes my screen.

You're using Mallory on the wrong guy, Joe: although I've never been any higher than 3770 metres, I always considered his to be the perfect answer to the question; and he had a good death.....

[Joe Zop]

originally posted by philip augustus
to joe:
what does “let’s take care of each other” actually mean in the thailand sex scene? being as nice as we can to one another as long as the ships are within hailing distance? do you know how the thai language divides up the emotional spectrum?

it mostly means -- i'll have sex with you as much as you like as long as we go shopping when we're not screwing, and you support my entire extended family. (which, in the western scheme of things, still ends up being fairly reasonable in cost.) but the main issue on point is the ease and speed with which the statement is made, as it's a clear quid pro quo.

and i'm afraid my thai is too rudimentary at this point (working on it, and expect to learn tons during my extended time there this fall) to know enough to make critical delineations. i'm still wading through translations of the various regional mythic texts as i get time, right now.

what you say about the “key to the kingdom” is precisely what i had in mind. if the woman makes an if – goto gate here, then we know what’s going to happen, don’t we?

yup, it's george mallory logic at work -- climbing everest "because it's there" -- and often with the same result as with him, meaning lost, dead and frozen for 75 or so years :-)

[Philip Augustus]

To Joe:
What does “Let’s take care of each other” actually mean in the Thailand sex scene? Being as nice as we can to one another as long as the ships are within hailing distance? Do you know how the Thai language divides up the emotional spectrum?

What you say about the “key to the kingdom” is precisely what I had in mind. If the woman makes an IF – GOTO gate here, then we know what’s going to happen, don’t we?

[Joe Zop]

Ah, RN, but the scenario you describe (charging someone who is persistent but you're not attracted to) isn't necessarily win-win. It might be win for you, in that you're getting $$$ and essentially sidelining someone who's trying to have a relationship with you, but what the man is "getting" isn't necessaily what he was after/bargaining for, and there's a degree of disingenuousness about the whole process. Translating a potential or would-be suitor into a paying customer does change the fundamental nature of the relationship, and while that might be fine from your perspective, there are two sides to the coin.

Now, if the guy is clear on the change and ok with it, because basically he wants your body and not to be part of your life, then that's fine. And that might no doubt work in a situation where his interest is entirely sexual. But there's distinctly the possibility of damage here, as even if he says he's ok with it, it might well be that he perceives the rules and price you've set as the only way to get to you. Seems to me like a good way to create a stalker scenario, to be honest, or someone who at the very least feels he "owns" you in some way. A clear "no" seems a better approach, or handing him a business card that has your rates, which also send a pretty clear message.

At least in the industry there are clear parameters which can help make clear that situation.

[Joe Zop]

I agree, RN, but I think the devil is in the detail of how much one "hardly knows" someone, and how much the woman holds the pronouncement as the key to the kingdom, as it were. Many guys easily translate ILY into "I want/desire you" in the same way that ILY in, say, the Thailand sex scene can mean, "let's take care of each other." Others of course take it as a sacred statement of committment. And if the dangle is that saying the words is the only way to move forward in the relationship, there are plenty of people, both male and female, who will say them because it*might* be true, though they wouldn't swear to it on a stack of bibles. And of course there are plenty of both men and women who don't learn a darn thing from their mistakes in this regard, as what they want is still what they want :-)

In the context of Philip's response here, I think we're also talking about the difference between someone who comes on the scene and puts on a big romantic production (which certainly declares one's interest) and caps it with the ILY pronouncement as opposed to someone who's steadily there for someone when they need them, supportive, but shy about doing the grand production. Everyone likes to be fussed over, and everyone can have their head turned by it, but there's showing and there's showing.

And Terry, I've monetarily supported such organizations (check out COYOTE, for example) though I've not lent public support, as unfortunately in my work I deal with folks to whom such a public declaration would be viewed as the execution of a successful professional suicide.

[Philip Augustus]

To RN:
Only an Australian would perceive Joe and I as living in the same time zone! J

You’re right about Juliet! She doesn’t want to register herself, but if I cut and paste the conversation into e-mails for her, and paste her comments back, it’s doable.

It’s a funny thing, but what you describe is done every day by women who would be very indignant at the P word, but it’s called “dinner at <whatever>”. It’s only when it’s actual banknotes that people get upset.

I like what you say about the “easy exchanges” in the sex industry, and the sense of cheerful acceptance. Exactly what I’ve always felt.

Did I mention Herodotus and the Lydians here before? He tells us that, instead of being married off with parental dowries to the parental choice, the Lydian girls all worked as prostitutes until they’d accumulated their own dowries, then married whom they wanted. Go, Lydians, go!

[Rubber Nursey]

Joe,

Hearing "I love you" come out of a man's mouth before sex holds about as much weight as hearing "I'll call you" after the fact! LOL Any man who would toy with a woman's insecurities like that, just to get laid, is in my opinion a total a**hole...BUT any woman who would hear that from a man she hardly knows and actually believe it is obviously a complete fool, and will probably benefit greatly from the lesson she will ultimately learn when it's over! (Hmmm does that attitude qualify me as a chauvenist pig??)

Terry,
Not only do I believe in such an organization, but I currently work for one. I am also a member of a sex worker activist/lobbying group, and have spoken in the media and in public about the issues many times. There are already quite a few organisations in the US that are fighting for decriminalisation as we speak...perhaps you should get in touch with some of them and offer your support. Active members from the "secret society" of prostitutes and their clients are very hard to come by! I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms.

[Philip Augustus]

Counterfeit money – or Pokemon cards, where kids can have fun collecting and comparing the variants, but can be conned into believing that cards have an objective dollar value (i.e., independently of what other kids will pay for them).

If your stripper tried to sleep with me for years, I’d probably miss it too. What about “woman-loving losers”, then? “Top-heavy emotional cannibals”, LOL!

I will confess, I continually seek “a relationship where I’m somehow "special" beyond the time limit of time purchased” – I can’t help it, though I can help the degree to which I expect it (not much) and how cross I get when I don’t get it (ditto). I regard being a valued and liked regular as a reasonable objective. You’re right about the indignation evinced by some guys being a pointer. I had a TG (living in my country) cultivate me by phone, until she worked up to asking me to do a pro forma marriage for some relative, whereupon I said a polite no and she disappeared. But I wasn’t mad at her, and wasn’t sure why she didn’t stay in contact to keep me warm as a repeat customer; shame, or the assumption that I would be mad at her?

Know what you mean by self-dissatisfied stunning women, too. That goes for the absolute number-one courtesan I’ve ever met, who appeared to enjoy, nay, need the sex, perhaps due to this perception of herself as unattractive. As you say, too, there’s no way you can talk such a woman into perceiving herself as beautiful, whether she’s professional or amateur, though we shall continue to try, shall we not?

[Rubber Nursey]

Arrgghhh! I forgot how hard it is to keep up with the conversation, with all you guys chatting in the same timezone!

Ok.....
Juliet,
As always, you have hit the nail on the head in my opinion. Can I just say now while I have the opportunity, that I think you are a truly exceptional woman. Anyway, what you said about wanting affection, etc is actually the answer I was going to give to one of Joe's questions...

Joe,
re: single girls charging people in their private life rather than "giving it away". I should clarify that when I said I had considered doing it myself, it had NOTHING to do with the money. In fact, it's about all those things that Juliet mentioned. Let me say that if I was to meet a man that I was truly attracted to, I would never contemplate charging him. If it was a man that I was not terribly attracted to though and he was persistent, the thought of charging him would cross my mind. I guess it all comes down to that same point that everyone has just made about needing to "get something" out of the transaction. When confronted with the opportunity to have a one night stand with someone I am not entirely sure about, I would probably evaluate it by thinking "Am I going to get love?" No. "Am I going to get affection?" No. "Am I going to get great sex?" No. In the past if I came up with no "benefits" to saying yes to him, I would walk away. These days, thanks to working in the industry, another "benefit" would cross my mind that I would never have thought of before... "Can I make money out of this?" Yes.

Yeah, I know that sounds materialistic and all, but in truth it's the same argument as I always give for prostitution. If he wants me and is willing to pay for it, and I want money and am willing to have sex with him for it....it's a win-win situation. Everyone's happy. As for what damage could be done to girls who cross the line and charge for sex in their private lives? I really don't think it would do any. Perhaps she is afraid of intimate relationships? Maybe she hates men? Or maybe....she is single and loving it and doesn't see any reason to have sex with someone unless she is being duly rewarded. The only reason that I had a "line" in the first place, was because it kept the "brothel worker" me and the "housewife/mother" me as separate people in my mind. That was something that I felt I needed to do, but many girls would feel that is totally unnecessary. How girls deal with the perils of "living a double life" is a very individual thing.

I also agree with you when you said that dealing with the sex industry makes people frustrated, but I think it may be for a slightly different reason to yours. To me, the sex industry is the most honest, open and accepting environment that anyone can step into. Everything is up front and open.....no mind games or emotional turmoil. Just straight sex the way you want it, when you want it, with no strings attached. Personally, I tend to believe that the frustration felt by people who have dealt with the industry, is caused when they step back into the "real world" and realise just how petty and cruel and difficult it really is.

Philip,
re: the power of control
That's exactly what I meant in the above statement. The client has the power to choose his partner, specify his fantasies (that she will perform in exactly the way she is told to) and know that he can be completely selfish with his emotions and she will not be upset by it. With a sex worker he can have his cake and eat it too. The sex worker is in exactly the same position of control, which is something that a woman doesn't always feel in relationships in the real world.
I think the fact that when we step back outside of the industry, the feeling of power and confidence and the easy exchanges with the opposite sex disappear...the insecurities return. IMHO it is from that loss of control and sense of "belonging" that the aforementioned frustration comes from.