The Morality of Prostitution

[Chocha Monger]

I wouldn’t call prostitution the most destructive activity known to man. Many other activities such as environmental pollution, warfare, slavery, genocide and political oppression can claim that honor. Prostitution has existed as long as man’s history. In ancient Rome the state licensed and taxed prostitutes. It was one of humankind’s earliest forms of free enterprise and it has continued to flourish in spite of attempts to stamp it out. The exchange of goods for sexual services is not any more harmful than other forms of human commerce. The negative things associated with modern prostitution tend to come from other activities such as [CodeWord908], child exploitation, drug addiction and organized crime. All of these illicit activities are now presented as part of prostitution by those who want to extinguish the trade. They ignore the fact that these activities exist apart from prostitution. [CodeWord908] occurs to supply cheap captive labor unrelated to sex commerce. Take a look around. Many of the Chinese workers you see at restaurants or dry cleaning services probably got here in a shipping container. Mexicans, Hondurans, Salvadorans and Guatemalans are also trafficked into the country to work on farms, construction projects, meat packing plants and landscaping projects. Trafficked prostitutes get more attention because it sells more newspapers and gets more viewers.

How many normal college girls in the US would say no to sex if you offered them $5,000 for an hour of sex with assurances that no one would ever find out? Some may get a little greedy and ask for more but if you showed them the hard cash most would have a price. That’s just reality, if you bid high enough most women will sell you what you want based on what they perceive the value of that thing to be. It is true that most American women don’t ask for cab fare home after you root them because they have a car or you do and can take them home. However, try rooting an American woman and then stop taking her out for dinner, don’t buy her flowers, don’t buy her gifts for her birthday, Valentine’s day, Christmas or any other occasion. You’ll soon see whether or not your relationship is just based on love without any kind of material or monetary exchange. Even one night stands involve the cost of a few drinks. Sex is rarely “free” if ever.

As for all this talk about coping with mongering it makes one wonder if we have a bunch of preachers like Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart and Coy Privette on this forum. As far as I’m concerned every encounter is a love story. One simply decides to fall in love for a pre-determined period of time. When that time is up the relationship ends and a gift is given to the woman. You can choose to fall in and out of love as many times as you like with the same woman or a different one. Break ups are more often amicable than not, lies are unnecessary and the absence of vindictiveness is downright refreshing. That’s more than can be said for more socially accepted boyfriend/girlfriend break ups and divorces. Maybe the desperate and strange people are the ones who think the only acceptable means of obtaining sex is to mislead women into thinking some kind of long term bonding will result from the sexual encounter. Most American women expect a call the next morning after getting fucked and become very emotional disturbed when it doesn’t come. It’s also immoral to sit at a bar plying someone with drinks and pretending to be interested in their inane babbling when what you really want to do is poignantly fuck them up one or more body orifices. Is being married and lying about getting a divorce an acceptable means of convincing a young woman to fuck you? We all saw how that worked out for McNair. What about getting into relationships with women just because you want a steady root and then dumping them when you get bored of rooting the same hole in order find a replacement? How about players with lots of game who string along several woman and has to lie several times a day just to keep the game going? Are these guys more honorable and less of an embarrassment than a twenty-something young man who pays for a root with a hot girl under no false pretenses?

What we call “game” today is actually seduction. Seduction was actually a felony.

"Seduction n. the use of charm, salesmanship, promises, gifts and flattery to induce another person to have sexual intercourse outside marriage, without any use of force or intimidation." - Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill.

[Dickhead]

I wouldn't marry a hooker. But then, I wouldn't marry anyone. It's an anachronistic concept, similar to slavery in many regards. I am not sure men and women were ever meant to live together.

Just to give one example, why I am supposed to put the toilet seat back down? Why isn't she supposed to put it back up? I think the reason Bolivia has a low divorce rate is because there are no toilet seats.

[Gedanken]

We keep hearing that you can take the girl out of the bar but not the bar out of the girl. This is a common refrain from those who have attempted to save bargirls by marrying them or giving financial support.

Perhaps the reason such relationships fail is in fact because you can take the monger out of the bar, but you can't the bar out of the monger.

Seriously, I don't know how any guy can expect a relationship to work out with a girl who he'd previously been paying to fuck silly. Let's go to another time and place: supposing I'd been a slave trader during the eighteenth century. Would I really expect a woman I'd traded to ever be able to love me after what I'd done to her? I'm amazed that every guy who decides to marry a WG doesn't get screwed over: he and I deserve it. If I were a WG, I'd take the opportunity to get revenge on a monger if one presented itself. It's a testimony to how nice most WGs are that they don't try to fuck us over.

I'm of a mind with Hesekiels when it comes to WGs: fuck them, then fuck them. I don't see how why sane person would take a different approach.

[Opebo]

What are your thoughts on this, Opebo?

I like it. But then I'm a sociopath.

Regarding exploitation - just because I always try to note its existence doesn't mean I am opposed to it in some way.

But I was wondering about one line of your post - why is it easier for you to 'dehumanize' 'hot' girls? I never dehumanize anyone, but I also haven't noticed any difference in this area based on appearance.

[Dickhead]

"Originally Posted by Dickhead
You might even have the potential to get to know a few women on a personal basis, and it might open your eyes"

By this I wasn't implying you hadn't had girlfriends. I meant get to know some of the prostitutes on a personal basis, in addition to criticising (he he) your continued use of "girls" to refer to adult women. I should have been more specific.

The problem with your #4, of course, is that you're reading bullshit. Because I was born and raised in the Yew Ess, I don't need a lot of cites and statistics to know that the Yew Ess State Department is full of shit. Just like you probably don't need to research what a crumpet is. Once you see some of the same hookers for years and years, you begin to realize they aren't that much different from anyone else.

I know who Kaczynski is. I was letting the [CodeWord140] out of you. But the family doesn't pronounce the name with a "ch" sound; they've "Anglicized" it as is very common in the Yew Ess. The Unabomber is currently residing in my former home state in the Yew Ess in the notorious "Super Max" prison. I essentially agree with his point of view but his tactics are indefensible. He probably didn't get laid enough. Although, it appears Jim Jones got laid plenty and he killed way more people than the Unabomber, arguably. I think you'll find him interesting. He was an atheist but he created a religion strong enough to convince I believe it was 982 people to commit mass suicide.

I really don't know if there is more prostitution or less prostitution in wealthy countries. Unfortunately it's illegal in my country. But the UK and Germany are wealthy countries (I lived in both) and it was certainly my experience in both countries that there was a lot of prostitution. Maybe there is a correlation between a lot of prostitution and extremely bad food, based on those two countries. Of course in the UK you not only have the world's worst food but the world's worst weather and the world's worst teeth, so those could also be factors.

Well, okay, the food in Ireland might be just a bit worse than the food in the UK, and there is almost no prostitution there (believe me, I looked) so that analogy doesn't hold water. Shit.

I haven't been to Japan but it's a wealthy country and has a lot of prostitution. The Netherlands is a wealthy country. I don't know if it has a lot of prostitution or whether it's just that whatever level of prostitution it has is out in the open.

I've been to about as many relatively poor countries as I've been to relatively wealthy countries (I've been to 30-32 countries so far, depending on exactly how you define "been in" and "country") and I can't say I see a correlation. Plus to me, if a woman marries a man for money, that's prostitution as well.

I have fucked hookers in the following countries (this has nothing to do with the debate; I just like bragging about it): Yew Ess, Canada, México, The Bahamas, Costa Rica, Colombia, Perú, Chile, Argentina (412 and counting), Uruguay, UK, France, Belgium, Germany, The Netherlands, Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and Cambodia, as well as in the non-countries of Puerto Rico, Hong Kong, and Macao.

I've also fucked hookers from several other countries including: Dominican Repulic, Cuba, Poland, Bulgaria, Paraguay (which produces the finest hookers in the world in my opinion), Bolivia, Nicaragua, Panamá, Jamaica, Brazil, and Syria.

I consider this to be my contribution to international relations. All Brits out there especially take note that according to the Monroe Doctrine I have an innate right to fuck all of Latin America and you Brits do not. Out of the kindness of my heart I will give you Guyana and I will even throw in Suriname although you don't deserve it.

So to keep this in a light-hearted spirit I will close with a joke:

Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Because they all have Lucas refrigerators.

[Gedanken]

B) Why don't you look up the fuckin' cites of the study yourself since you're the one running around quoting it!

And again, just to make sure no one is allowed off the hook, if RN doesn't know where a list of the citations are for the State Department are (either on the State Department website or elsewhere), how could she know that the State Department does indeed use the Australian sources which she dislikes?

[Gedanken]

gedanken: as someone who has been directly involved in the tip data collection process, i agree with everything dh said about the tip report. in most cases the 'data' is not data at all, but a collection of opinions ...

the statistics you quoted (75% of women in prostitution are raped, 95% are physically assaulted, etc) are actually a bad case of chinese whispers - each time they're published, they grow and change and move further away from the truth ...

the original studies involved street-based sex workers. in most developed countries, street-based sex workers account for less than 10% of all sex workers ... studies conducted on 'indoor' sex workers have completely different results ...

again, i'll ask you for some verifiable sources.

[Gedanken]

A) Rubbie was being sarcastic about the guns and the blacks and being kidnapped in my country

Apologies, the shame is mine. I'm not familiar with RN's posting enough to know if she's being sarcastic about such things.

B) Why don't you look up the fuckin' cites of the study yourself since you're the one running around quoting it!

Yes, OK, I'll accept this, though I want to reiterate my request i) about RN's allegations of criticisms about Australian research. If she can't provide me with sources for that, looking up the citations for State Department report is not necessary.

[Gedanken]

At the outset here, Dickhead, I must impress on you the fact that I have had regular girlfriends.

So you made me learn something.

Now you in your turn have got me curious as to who this Jim Jones character was, so you're going to make me learn something.

Who's this Kaczynski guy?

Theodore Kaczynski (Wikipedia has the prounciation of his surname wrong: he has a Polish surname, so the 'cz' is like the 'ch' in 'church', not like the 'z' in 'zebra' as they state) was also known as the Unabomber. To save myself some typing, I'll point you to his entry on Wikipedia. Incidentally, I disagree with the way Kaczynski views the nature of morality, but seeing it the way he does serves his cause well.

Which is exactly why you have no idea what you're talking about.

I disagree. Let me give an brief review of my thinking:

1) I have had regular girlfriends, one of whom I came fairly close to marrying. I have had normal relationships, I know what it is like to know a woman in the very fullest sense of that term.

2) I then, to mind my not unreasonably, assume that the overwhelming majority of women are not unlike the girls I've had relationships with: they want to meet and make love to a guy who loves them, makes them feel special, etc. I said 'make love', but even if we talk about sexual activity in a more general sense, they still don't want to have sex for money. Sure, girls just wanna fuck sometimes, wanna have one-night stands - but not for money. Is anyone here going to claim the existence of a large cohort of semi-pros in rich countries? Has anyone here taken back rich-world girl for a one-nighter and have her ask for 'taxi money' in the morning? Is anyone here going to argue against me if I claim that, generally speaking, levels of prostitution are incomparably lower in rich countries? Assuming not, I think it's fair to state that most WGs in poor countries would not be in the trade if they'd been born in a rich country, and so do not really want to be doing what they do.

3) I assume that human beings are fundamentally the same the world over, regardless of vanishingly small differences due to race, culture, etc. From this assumption it follows that WGs are just like my ex-girlfriends.

4) I read about the effect that prositution has on most girls, and therefore on some of the girls I see if I were to go mongering. Those effects will be something I contribute to.

5) 3) and 4) then tell me that if I am going to lovelessly fuck a poor girl and not feel guilty about it, I am going to have to find some way of not seeing the girl as being just like my ex-girlfriends who I loved and cared for. If I can't find such a way, there is no way I could ever see a WG and not feel guilty about it. I hope that's all clear enough.

6) The method I used, unconsciously and unintentionally to begin with, I have already described.

The difference between myself and many mongers here on the board is that they choose to fill their hearts with hate or delusion. Personally, I find neither of those particularly appealing when compared with my alternative.

Then your friends don't know who you really are, and probably aren't really your friends at all, only mere acquaintances.

Perhaps that is a fair statement, perhaps not. If you define friends to be people who know every darkest detail about you, then yes I agree. Personally, I wouldn't define friends in such a narrow sense, and would call such people 'close friends'. Anyway, this is (perhaps) all a matter of personal definitions of words, so while I disagree with you, I can see why others would agree with you. I forgot to say that I have told one of my friends about my hobby since he sees rich-world escorts himself (though he's not been mongering; I'm working on him...). Also, I could add that my brother has, I'm pretty sure, guessed about what I get up to. Using your definitions, I therefore have at least one 'friend' and, well, what do you expect from your brother? From his reactions to things I say, I know he doesn't like what I do, but we still get on fine - I'm best man at his wedding next year!

You have guilt issues so you are living a lie

I do not have guilt issues, for the reasons and the method that I outlined before. If I had guilt issues, I would not - could not - do mongering. The reason you do not have guilt issues is because you are seem wedded to the idea of prostitution not being "one of the most destructive activities human beings can be involved with." I have no need to gloss over this fact, I accept it and work around it. You and I are no different, Dickhead, though at face value you seem like the nicer person.

... this does make you seem like an arsehole (and a gullible one at that), another word we Americans have shortened and made more efficient.

I appreciate your honesty, respect your opinion about me, and condemn your continued use and praise of American English. Well, I can't help it if being honest and avoiding self-deception makes me sound like a total ****! Look on the bright side, Dickhead. At least I'm not going to end up as one of these guys who dehumanises women to the point that he ends up engaged in paedophilia. I cannot even see average-looking girls without feeling horrendously guilty about it. I take no shame in setting clear limits and a strong safety-net for my mongering activities.

However, I do think your course of action, for a beginner, is well-thought out and likely to be effective.

I thank you for your kind words.

You might even have the potential to get to know a few women on a personal basis, and it might open your eyes.You will eventually need to see and think about the consequences of your actions in order to become a mature adult.

I send you to my very first sentence of this post. I feel it is the mongers who engage in self-deception and facile hatred of WGs (or even women generally) who are immature.

Just because we kicked your asses in a couple of wars...

Damn you, sir.

... and bailed your sorry asses out of a couple of other ones...

I thank only the Russians for defeating the Nazis!!

... doesn't mean it's acceptable for you to swallow the bullshit propaganda our State Department spews out.

I'm still waiting for something more than ad hominems with regard to the State Department. In the continuing absence of substantive criticism, all I can say for certain is that the studies cited by the State Department clash badly with your views about (i.e. self-justifications for) mongering.

[M]ongering is inherently good.

I don't know what to say to this.

[Member #4214]

gedanken: as someone who has been directly involved in the tip data collection process, i agree with everything dh said about the tip report. in most cases the 'data' is not data at all, but a collection of opinions ...

the statistics you quoted (75% of women in prostitution are raped, 95% are physically assaulted, etc) are actually a bad case of chinese whispers - each time they're published, they grow and change and move further away from the truth ...

the original studies involved street-based sex workers. in most developed countries, street-based sex workers account for less than 10% of all sex workers ... studies conducted on 'indoor' sex workers have completely different results ...

well said rn.

[Dickhead]

A) Rubbie was being sarcastic about the guns and the blacks and being kidnapped in my country
B) Why don't you look up the fuckin' cites of the study yourself since you're the one running around quoting it!

[Gedanken]

I'd like to go to America, too, but studies show that the Yanks all carry guns and I'm highly likely to be shot while doing my grocery shopping.

Highly likely? Come along! US gun problems are real enough, but highly likely?! God bless America!

Probably by a black man, because studies show that black men are much more dangerous than white men.

Please feel free to shoot me down as pedantic, but can I make a request to have things phrased a little less freely: "black men are much more dangerous than white men." Come on, RN. I don't know of any studies which suggest that a man who is Black contains genetic code which results in him behaving more aggressively than that of a man who is White. There are plausible explanations as to why so many young, Black men reside in US prisons, but none of them have the root cause as their being Black.

Analysing national and international sex work policy, research and legislation, however, has been my JOB for 11 years... That said, the TIP stats that Gedanken quoted came from mostly Australian research, which I feel pretty qualified to comment on. The ethics and impartiality of those studies is constantly questioned, and yet the findings still appear in every anti-prostitution document ever produced. It's an ongoing pain in my arse.

I have only your word regarding your career, so appeal to your own authority, I'm afraid to say, just can't cut too much ice here where anyone can be anyone they want. So I feel I must make a few requests:

i) Aside from yourself, who "constantly questions" the ethics and impartiality of the Australian studies? Please can you provide verifiable, preferably online, sources for me to check.

ii) What are your verifiable, preferably online, sources which state that the State Department's figures come from Aussie researchers of the variety criticised by your sources in i)? In other words, do you know where on the State Department's website one can find its sourcing for the report mentioned? If not, how do you know that the State Department does indeed use the Australian sources which you dislike? If you can point me to the relevant section of their website, I can probably then trivially check for myself via Google as to whether your claims about its Australian sourcing are accurate.

[Warbucks]

you pay for it anyway whether through time invested or money.

they are saying this because a man in his twenties should be able to meet women without paying.

not so. what if that guy is socially inept fat or just plain ugly? in the states even if you do get sex/relationships it is not the same as fucking yourself into a stupor with various women (sport fucking) as can be accomplished with p4p.

its only a reflection of how desperate or strange you are. most (not all) guys in their twenties wouldn't consider paying for pussy. the only exception to this is being in the military where they are out on tours (mainly out of the country) and influenced by older more senior peers.

yeah i also was a part of the not “paying for pussy” brigade until i found myself in a bar in tashkent, uzbekistan confronted with a 5-9 red-headed russian who i was salivating over who told me if i wanted to screw her it was going to cost.

it’s easy for the average man in his twenties to get laid by babes in their twenties. its ridiculous. quite ashame that you have to resort to p4p to get yours.

this is a fallacy especially considering the western world. who wants to go on dates and pretend to be interested in whatever they are talking about only for a mere chance you might get to enjoy them for a few hours or days?
p4p is not the only route but it is the most convenient for me and others i know.

i have a friend in his 20s two years younger than me who is considered handsome by a lot of women and he had no problem getting them in bed back in the states he said he would never pay for sex but after taking a trip to thailand that was a resolution he habitually broke.

[Chocha Monger]

This is an interesting debate indeed. The way I see the whole monger vs. prostitute issue is that there is some exploitation on both sides. The mongers aren’t necessarily the apex predators in this ecosystem. True. The mongers usually have the advantage but they don’t always come out ahead. Even the lion, king of the jungle, can sometimes suffer a broken jaw from being kicked by a fleeing wildebeest. This means a slow painful death for the lion who is condemned to starvation as a result of his injuries. There are many reports here of cases where mongers were overcharged, robbed, assaulted or cheated out of promised services by prostitutes. Many mongers marry prostitutes only to get fleeced after taking them back to their home countries. Guys get fooled into sending scheduled cash remittances to their prostitute girlfriends who usually have multiple mongers providing a stream of cash. Foreign mongers also get charged several times the going rate that local mongers pay for the same service.

I don’t see why anyone would feel guilt about paying for a root. When a woman decides to sell pussy, unless she is coerced, she has already decided that doing so is the best course of action compared with the alternative of not doing so. Some of these women prefer selling pussy instead of doing a regular job. Once I offered to help some poor women start their own business by financing the venture. Instead they wanted the money as a gift and came up with all kinds of reasons why they couldn’t run a business including fears of being robbed. I soon realized that they were not interested in putting in the effort to better their situation. As Westerners we often assume that these women share our same drive to continually earn more through our own efforts. We’re often surprised when they have no ambition beyond having enough to eat and a place to sleep. Even in the US people spend their entire lives washing dishes or doing other menial labor.

From our point of view we see them as being exploited but what about their point of view? Do they really want to do something different? We keep hearing that you can take the girl out of the bar but not the bar out of the girl. This is a common refrain from those who have attempted to save bargirls by marrying them or giving financial support. The truth is that many of these women prefer to lie on their backs rather than break their backs in sweatshops or on subsistence farms. I think they simply choose between the risk of getting fucked poignantly up the ass or having to do some other type of labor.

[Rubber Nursey]

...and partly I do that to try to convince her to come visit me :<)

I'd love to come visit you, DH, but studies have shown that I'm likely to be kidnapped by armed men and ransomed to my Government if I set foot in your country. I'd like to go to America, too, but studies show that the Yanks all carry guns and I'm highly likely to be shot while doing my grocery shopping. Probably by a black man, because studies show that black men are much more dangerous than white men. I think I'll stay here, where I'm statistically more likely to drink myself to death, because studies show that most Australians are apathetic pissheads.