The Morality of Prostitution

[Chocha Monger]

I do not know about France, but some type of "slavery" is almost a norm in countries such as Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Lebanon.

Well, in the US a type of slavery is the norm with most forms of employment. It's called "credit." You need it to get housing and to purchase expensive items like cars. Most Americans are forced to work and keep their bills current or they face threats of being given a bad credit rating. This means that they can't rent an apartment or get a mortgage, their car insurance rate may increase and they may be refused a job based on a background check of their credit history.

So, most people are slaves to the financial institutions in this country. Yes. Everything is relative.

[DJ FourMoney]

Anyone have comments on "Taken" an action movie based on kidnapping girls and forcing them into prostitution in France?

While the movie has a aura of gritty reality, I find the premise a bit preposterous. I mean, I'm sure there is some forced prostitution in France, just as there is in America, but this is not Turkey.
In the film there is a scene where a French policeman explains that the Albanian gangs used to import girls from Eastern Europe, but now find it easier just to snatch girls off the streets
(or out of airports, as is the case here).

It seems to me there are still legions of girls willing to earn their living on their backs. How could it be cheaper and easier to force them into it, instead of just recruiting them from poor countries in the first place?
I cannot imagine it is worth anyone's while abducting wealthy American girls - the consequences are just too great, when there is a world full of girls from countries where life is cheap.

The reason for my question is that if the film is remotely true, it is very disturbing.
Pay 4 Play with a willing seller and willing buyer is one thing.
Forced prostitution is a whole other nightmare.

There was another movie about this with Val Kilmer - Spartan

[Goga Fung]

Gentleman:

The plot is highly unlikely in reality. As you mentioned, there are millions of women from poor countries willing to sell pussy voluntarily due to economic motives. It is far less trouble to recruit prostitutes from those countries. Many women enter into agreements with human smugglers. They agree to prostitute themselves for a period of time in order to repay the cost of being smuggled over the border. Why in the world would an organized criminal syndicate choose to call attention to itself by kidnapping women in the street or other public places in Europe or North America? It doesn’t make a bit of sense.

I do not know about France, but some type of "slavery" is almost a norm in countries such as Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Lebanon.

Some girls see advertisement for overseas jobs (bar/restaurant), then they sign a contract in a foreign language without understanding it.

Then after they arrive to the workplace, their passports are taken away and they have no other choice but to work as prostitutes. Because now they owe lots of money for the job arrangement, ticket costs, agency "fee" etc. Also they are threatened that their family can be hurt back at home if the do not comply with the work rules and contract.

Of course some girls go to this work realizing everything (and actually ending up making some good money), and some get conned.

One girl said that it is actually much better for them to work in a club/*****house overseas than standing on a highway back at home.

So everything is relative.

[Chocha Monger]

Gentleman:

The plot is highly unlikely in reality. As you mentioned, there are millions of women from poor countries willing to sell pussy voluntarily due to economic motives. It is far less trouble to recruit prostitutes from those countries. Many women enter into agreements with human smugglers. They agree to prostitute themselves for a period of time in order to repay the cost of being smuggled over the border. Why in the world would an organized criminal syndicate choose to call attention to itself by kidnapping women in the street or other public places in Europe or North America? It doesn’t make a bit of sense.

This fantasy has been engineered to appeal to female audiences in North America who are titillated by the thought of being abducted by exotic Europeans and being sold to wealthy Arabs who can’t wait to ravish them sexually. The basic elements of the plot are not new. In the old days the villains were not Albanian gangs but Barbary pirates or sultans who decided to ignore their harem of willing women to woo some strong-willed kidnapped American women.

This junk is far from reality but it is the kind of stuff that bestsellers and blockbusters are made of. If you have talent at writing you could make millions sitting on a beach somewhere writing novels or screenplays designed to flatter the egos of American females. So if you want to escape the 9 to 5 grind in the US you should definitely consider this career.

You’d be surprised to know how many women in North America would buy a story featuring a Natalie Holloway type character who, happened to be kidnapped from an Aruban beach in the dead of the night by a wealthy Arabian prince who decided he just had to experience the joys of a white American young woman. She is bound, gagged and tossed aboard a dinghy which races across the water glittering under the starry night sky to a luxury yacht anchored in a hidden cove. As the vessel departs Aruban waters her captor introduces himself and apologizes for his forceful means of persuasion. She is defiant but by the time his yacht reaches it’s destination in his oil rich Middle Eastern kingdom he has won her affections. He achieves this by showering her with gold and diamond jewelry and professing his love to her while showing her around some of the most exotic and exclusive locales along the way. She gives in. After all, how can any woman say no to nightly dinners of caviar, lobster and fillet mignon served on the finest china and silver with crystal goblets of rare French wines? She decides to become his wife and wear a burkha. In return, he gives up his harem of beautiful women. They live happily ever after and no one ever hears from her again back in the US.

[Gentleman Travel]

Anyone have comments on "Taken" an action movie based on kidnapping girls and forcing them into prostitution in France?

While the movie has a aura of gritty reality, I find the premise a bit preposterous. I mean, I'm sure there is some forced prostitution in France, just as there is in America, but this is not Turkey.
In the film there is a scene where a French policeman explains that the Albanian gangs used to import girls from Eastern Europe, but now find it easier just to snatch girls off the streets
(or out of airports, as is the case here).

It seems to me there are still legions of girls willing to earn their living on their backs. How could it be cheaper and easier to force them into it, instead of just recruiting them from poor countries in the first place?
I cannot imagine it is worth anyone's while abducting wealthy American girls - the consequences are just too great, when there is a world full of girls from countries where life is cheap.

The reason for my question is that if the film is remotely true, it is very disturbing.
Pay 4 Play with a willing seller and willing buyer is one thing.
Forced prostitution is a whole other nightmare.

[Bango Cheito]

I don't get why more people don't like incall. It seems to me to be the least risky. Outcall is risky for the guy and risky as HELL for the girl. Walking the streets is even riskier for both parties.

[Rubber Nursey]

1. Prostitutes appear to do better when managed by a pimp in terms of earnings, avoiding arrest, abuse by clients and being less vulnerable to demands for free service from police and gang members.

That makes complete sense. This is why we argue for decriminalised brothels and to allow private/independent workers to employ receptionists, or security, or work with another sex worker. Hookers are already disempowered by stigma and a lack of access to legal recourse, which encourages clients to rip them off and/or bully them into lowering their prices. Isolation only makes it worse. If there's a potential witness, or backup, or a big beefy dude waiting to smash someone's face in, clients are much more likely to play nice.

Legislators and do-gooders think they're protecting sex workers by criminalising 'pimping' activities (like living off the earnings or keeping premises), but they're actually making it a whole lot more dangerous.

2. A prostitute is more likely to have sex with a police officer than get officially arrested by one.

Ain't THAT the truth!

Thanks for posting that paper, Chocha. It was really interesting.

[Chocha Monger]

Here is an interesting paper on prostitution:
http://economics.uchicago.edu/pdf/Prostitution%205.pdf

Some surprising facts pointed out are:

1. Prostitutes appear to do better when managed by a pimp in terms of earnings, avoiding arrest, abuse by clients and being less vulnerable to demands for free service from police and gang members.

2. A prostitute is more likely to have sex with a police officer than get officially arrested by one.

According to DOJ estimates a pimp managing six women can make over $806,000/yr.

[DJ FourMoney]

Sorry, Piper. I probably shouldn't have confused the issue and mentioned drugs in my post. That wasn't what I was getting at.

What I'm asking is...what, exactly, are you suggesting that 'desperate' hookers become 'dependent' on?

The money? I think it's safe to say that ALL of us become dependent on our income, however that money is earned. Some people call hooking 'easy money', but I can assure you, it ain't! Either way, it's no more 'easy' than the dude that earns $120,000 sitting at the base of a mine directing traffic, or the political policy advisor who gets paid to ask other people to find and collate information for them.

The sex? The flexible hours? The inhouse camaraderie? If so, that's a good thing, right? To become hooked on a part of your work that you love?

As I've said many times in this thread, when it comes to job satisfaction, hookers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If we hate our work, we're victims of circumstance...or, worse, exploitation or abuse. But if we love our work, we're addicted to, or dependent on, an unhealthy 'lifestyle'.

I'm the first to admit that I found it quite hard to assimilate into 'real life' employment after working in the sex industry. I was used to working my own hours and deciding my own service, with little or no supervision (and for a lot more money!) But I felt the same way long ago, after working for myself as a part-time house and office cleaner. And now, after another self-employed stint, the thought of doing what I'm told by an employer makes me shiver. Surely I'm not the only person here who feels that way?

Your not....

As productivity has increased, wages have been pushed down (specifically in the United States). There are some worker protections against this in other countries or they have solidarity as a way to fight back against "greed", a bit off topic but I totally understand what your saying about the advantages of being self employed and I don't think sex work is easy, especially mentally and physically.

That's all I wanted to add

[Rubber Nursey]

The drugs analogy was purely an analogy (I wasn't talking about junkie hookers). The analogy is: some people get hooked into an abusive drug lifestyle, some people get hooked into an abusive hooker lifestyle. Both are often caused by desperation and dependence (not necessarily drug dependence).

Sorry, Piper. I probably shouldn't have confused the issue and mentioned drugs in my post. That wasn't what I was getting at.

What I'm asking is...what, exactly, are you suggesting that 'desperate' hookers become 'dependent' on?

The money? I think it's safe to say that ALL of us become dependent on our income, however that money is earned. Some people call hooking 'easy money', but I can assure you, it ain't! Either way, it's no more 'easy' than the dude that earns $120,000 sitting at the base of a mine directing traffic, or the political policy advisor who gets paid to ask other people to find and collate information for them.

The sex? The flexible hours? The inhouse camaraderie? If so, that's a good thing, right? To become hooked on a part of your work that you love?

As I've said many times in this thread, when it comes to job satisfaction, hookers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If we hate our work, we're victims of circumstance...or, worse, exploitation or abuse. But if we love our work, we're addicted to, or dependent on, an unhealthy 'lifestyle'.

I'm the first to admit that I found it quite hard to assimilate into 'real life' employment after working in the sex industry. I was used to working my own hours and deciding my own service, with little or no supervision (and for a lot more money!) But I felt the same way long ago, after working for myself as a part-time house and office cleaner. And now, after another self-employed stint, the thought of doing what I'm told by an employer makes me shiver. Surely I'm not the only person here who feels that way?

[Piper1]

Piper: I'm sorry, but I really don't get the 'desperate and dependent' argument. Let's say a lawyer - who is used to earning $150,000 a year - is asked to quit his job and work for a pro bono organisation. If he says no ...do we consider him 'desperate and dependent'? Does he have some major character flaw because he refuses to give up his $150,000 a year and do his job for free?

Because, realistically, that's what people are asking of hookers. They're saying that we should give up being paid $300 an hour and start doing it for free (or 'for love'!)

Yes, some sex workers spend their income on drugs. But so do some lawyers and doctors and hospitality workers and truck drivers, etc. Sex work is not a 'lifestyle'; it's a job. That job CAN provide for a particular lifestyle (although, not always) ...but why is that such a bad thing? Being a doctor provides for a particular lifestyle, too. Do we begrudge a doctor's choice to earn heaps of money doing something he loves? Do we attempt to control what he can and can't spend his doctor's income on? Do we criticise him if he refuses to perform his job for free?

Sorry RN, I don't follow your illogic.

The drugs analogy was purely an analogy (I wasn't talking about junkie hookers). The analogy is: some people get hooked into an abusive drug lifestyle, some people get hooked into an abusive hooker lifestyle. Both are often caused by desperation and dependence (not necessarily drug dependence).

[Rubber Nursey]

For many hookers it's only a small step to becoming hooked (pardon the pun) into the lifestyle - becoming desperate and dependent.

Piper: I'm sorry, but I really don't get the 'desperate and dependent' argument. Let's say a lawyer - who is used to earning $150,000 a year - is asked to quit his job and work for a pro bono organisation. If he says no ...do we consider him 'desperate and dependent'? Does he have some major character flaw because he refuses to give up his $150,000 a year and do his job for free?

Because, realistically, that's what people are asking of hookers. They're saying that we should give up being paid $300 an hour and start doing it for free (or 'for love'!)

Yes, some sex workers spend their income on drugs. But so do some lawyers and doctors and hospitality workers and truck drivers, etc. Sex work is not a 'lifestyle'; it's a job. That job CAN provide for a particular lifestyle (although, not always) ...but why is that such a bad thing? Being a doctor provides for a particular lifestyle, too. Do we begrudge a doctor's choice to earn heaps of money doing something he loves? Do we attempt to control what he can and can't spend his doctor's income on? Do we criticise him if he refuses to perform his job for free?

[Piper1]

RN, if I may step in (well I already did ) ,

I think a reasonable analogy is the 'recreational drug' analogy. You managed to keep hooking as an enjoyable activity, just like a non-dependent recreational drug user. For many hookers it's only a small step to becoming hooked (pardon the pun) into the lifestyle - becoming desperate and dependent. I'm sure you've seen your share of women in that position (pardon that pun also).

I saw your post in Perth Australia today - good to see you are still working to protect those involved in the sex industry (WGs *and* players).

[Rubber Nursey]

I don't like to tell people how to live their life but your words “prostitution is awesome is really disturbing” especially coming from a female. Your a first world woman with many a career opportunity but you throw your self to the lions and proclaim it to be great. I think you like abuse.

I get where you're coming from, Illogic, but it really depends on your personal perception of prostitution. If you see it as 'abuse', then ...YES, I would look like a complete victim, asking to be abused by all and sundry. But *I* don't see it as abuse. I look back on my time in the industry as fun and empowerment and (sexual) exploration and experimentation.

Yes, I had a number of alternative career options open to me. My sex work funded my training/certification in many of these other career options...then after a while, I went back to sex work because the hours (and the money) suited me and I had a lot more fun doing it. I never felt abused or exploited or any of the other negative things that people associate with prostitution.

I understand that you may have preconceived notions of how the sex industry operates, which will influence your ideas of how I must feel about myself. But you're wrong. I don't feel that way at all. In my private life, I demand respect from my partner or I move on. I rarely engage in anything sexual that I don't enjoy and if I do, it's after comprehensive negotiation (something I learned from my time as a hooker) and I'll make my boundaries very clear. I do NOT 'like' being abused. As I said, I love PLAYING the 'dirty wh*re' role... but when that's clearly negotiated and agreed on, it hardly constitutes real abuse. It's a game.

I stand by what I said. Hooking gave me the opportunity to explore my sexuality in a safe, legal, non-threatening environment. It was awesome and I don't regret it for one second.

[Piper1]

I see your point now - the WG *lifestyle* can be an abusive lifestyle if dependent and desperate, just like someone crossing the line from occasional recreational drug use, to desperate drug dependence and abuse.

Second time I stand corrected today, and I'm usually always right - damn!