The Morality of Prostitution

[Rubber Nursey]

I believe it's a worthy cause to persue and you definitly should focus heavily on SE Asia right now because that's where sex workers face great problems.

With our position in the Asia/Pacific, Australia and New Zealand play an important role in the mentoring of health organisations and policy development for SE Asia. Most of Australia's health strategies, particularly those developed by the Commonwealth, have a whole of region focus. As you can imagine though, there's only so much we can do on our end - if it's not taken up by Governments on the other end, or if the strategies are implemented badly, SE Asian sex workers miss out. Again, this is big picture stuff, where Governments have to be convinced that the problems warrant their time and money, before anything can actually be put into practice. There's still some Governments out there who flatly deny prostitution even exists in their country!!

I very much believe that the most immediate and severe health risk WG's face over there is not HIV but Hepatitis B. One girl told me she knew two WGs who died from it and knew of nobody who died of Aids. This is absolute madness considering there's a vaccine for this that can render you immune to it. I think various sex work organisations should concentrate on making resources available and make sure they all know where to get vaccinated.

There is no denying that there are exceedingly high rates of HIV in some international sex worker communites. If you combine that fact with what I said in my last post - that most sex industry policy and legislation is based on stereotypes and misconceptions - you'll see why this terrifies world leaders and health organisations. We already had a reputation as 'vectors of disease'. As 'uneducated IV drug users, engaging in high risk sex practices', they thought we were gonna put the whole world at risk of an HIV epidemic. For once, negative stigma actually worked in our favour.

Governments worldwide started pouring money into HIV strategies. Sure, for many of us, HIV isn't really a huge threat. But all that increased funding and awareness raised the profile of health and safety issues for 'deviant ' communities (sex workers, IV drug users, gay men) - groups that nobody had previously given a toss about. With HIV funding, we can educate people about safe sex (and IDU) practices that prevent the transmission of a multitude of other STIs and BBVs, as well as HIV. Governments were also forced to examine other outside factors that increased HIV risk to these communities, like stigma and discrimination preventing people from accessing health services and increased risk of violence in 'hidden' or illegal environments. Personal empowerment of marginalised communities was finally put on the agenda.

Rest assured, just because our strategies say that we are only targeting HIV, doesn't mean we don't know the realities and understand what's really important to sex worker health and safety.

With regard to your comments about Hep B in PI, I'd be really interested in finding out more, like names of cities/towns and the sort of environments these girls were working in (brothels, street, etc). You can PM me if you'd rather keep it off the board. I'd be interested in looking into the issue further. Unfortunately, this is another case where Governments need to be proactive in making vaccines accessible and promoting their availability. I don't know what the specific policy is for Hep vaccinations in the PI. In my state, 'at risk' groups can access free Hep A&B shots. Sex workers are one of those groups, BUT, walking into your doctor's surgery and announcing that you're a hooker is not as easy as it sounds. As always, disclosure of your sex worker status can have long-term negative consequences. If you aren't willing to say that you're a sex worker, you can still get the shots, but they can be pretty expensive. When I got mine a number of years ago (for free) the cost to general community members was a course of three shots at $75 each shot. If that was the case in PI, it would be out of reach to many sex workers.

Like you said, it's totally unacceptable for people to be dying from an illness that is totally preventable.

http://www.thebody.com/cria/winter06/sex_workers.html
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/bu.../sex.htm#note1

[Bango Cheito]

Yeah they still do BBBJ a lot in Brazil, but not always. When they do it MOST of the time they know to just swallow and call it a day. Or just dont let the guy come there.

[The Corn Hole]

It's VERY good in parts of Latin America. But it depends on what country. In Colombia and Brazil it's something the governments take seriously, both locally and federally. In the DR it's almost nonexistent and they have a growing AIDS epidemic there.

Yeah, you're right about sex education being good in Brazil, at least better than other countries in L.A. It's sort of ironic to me though. I've been to Tijuana, Mexico city, Costa Rica, Buenos Aires AR and the almighty Rio. In TJ the majority wanted to only do CBJ which is unacceptable to me, CR was the same (although it was easier to find BBBJ there), in BA about 50% would do it and some wanted extra for it. Out of all those places it was Rio where every provider I encountered had no objection to BBBJ, and there was more CIM in Rio than I've had in any other city except for maybe Jakarta. Never had any provider object to to an uncovered BJ. CBJs are an urban legend in Brazil! Three or four girls in 4x4 and a couple in Centaurus gave a clear indication that bareback sex was acceptable to them as well. The government is doing a good job promoting safe sex with regards to distributing condoms and treatment and all that stuff but I wonder how much of that message actually resonates with the population. Then again maybe it's so good in Brazil that they all know the risks from a BBBJ are virtually nil so don't feel any paranoia whatsoever about it.

RN,

I very much agree with everything you said in the fourth paragraph. I don't think very many women are charged with prostitution offenses in the Philippines but have no doubt some are in Indonesia. I believe it's a worthy cause to persue and you definitly should focus heavily on SE Asia right now because that's where sex workers face great problems. I very much believe that the most immediate and severe health risk WG's face over there is not HIV but Hepatitis B. One girl told me she knew two WGs who died from it and knew of nobody who died of Aids. This is absolute madness considering there's a vaccine for this that can render you immune to it. I think various sex work organisations should concentrate on making resources available and make sure they all know where to get vaccinated.

I also recently read an arcticle that said there is a small chance this virus can be transmitted from sweat! Pretty frightening stuff.

[Lazzaro]

There are heaps of girls in South America who don't give a shit about condoms.

Well, I cannot attain any sexual gratification with a condom. In fact it would be far more gratifying to sit at home and masturbate than have plastic sex.

You scare me, baby, you really do.

Please, don't forget to wear raincoat always and everywhere

[Rubber Nursey]

I also disagree with her on the dire need to empower sex workers around the world. I don't think they are as disempowered as she claims they are. This is a chosen profession for them and they are making more money for doing less work than most other females in their countries would be working regular day jobs....I just don't have them pegged as helpless victims being preyed upon by bloodthirsty wolves.

I'm the last person you need to preach that to! It's that exact concept that the entire sex worker rights movement is based on. One of the biggest obstacles in getting decent prostitution legislation is that most laws are based on the belief that sex workers ARE all victims, without agency and unable to make their own decisions - including the decision to become sex workers in the first place. Because to many people the idea of sex work is abhorrent, they can't for a second believe that any of us would CHOOSE to be a hooker; they make excuses for our behaviour, make assumptions about our characters and our motivations and then create laws and policies to effectively protect us from ourselves.

The type of 'empowerment' I'm talking about is not so much empowering individuals (although that's certainly important to me), but the big picture stuff. Freedom from police harassment and arrest, discrimination and stigma, violence and exploitation. Sex workers are disempowered by their social and political environment and often by bosses and/or clients in their workplace - for example, girls might desperately want to use condoms, but the brothel owner thinks they're bad for business and won't allow it.

Sex workers are right down there with the lowest of the low in most societies, including my own. Our human and civil rights are violated constantly, from slanderous and degrading media, to discrimination in courts, housing, employment, finance and access to sexual health services. You can't be truly empowered unless you have those basic rights. Our status in society and access to legal recourse affects every decision we make.

I can't do much to help those people in the factories (there's only so many causes one person can be involved in!) but advancing the rights of sex workers certainly does its bit in addressing poverty. Millions of women all over the world choose sex work as a means of survival, or to escape poverty completely. This is one of the very few jobs that an uneducated/unskilled woman can walk straight into, without experience, and earn a comparatively large amount of money in a short amount of time. Why shouldn't people have the right to choose sex work to feed themselves and their children? Would the Governments rather they sold drugs or stole things? Prosecution only perpetuates the cycle of poverty - women are charged with prostitution offences and fined (how are they supposed to get that extra money, if not on their backs?) or imprisoned, leaving them with a criminal record that will possibly exclude them from 'regular' employment for the rest of their lives.

Of course, if poverty were to end tomorrow, there would be many sex workers who would choose NOT to work in the industry. I'd love for that to be an option, too. But realistically, that's not gonna happen in a hurry. For now, sex work is a 'solution' to poverty for many and we should be supporting them in that decision and attempting to make it safe for them, not making them even more vulnerable.

[Bango Cheito]

It's VERY good in parts of Latin America. But it depends on what country. In Colombia and Brazil it's something the governments take seriously, both locally and federally. In the DR it's almost nonexistent and they have a growing AIDS epidemic there.

[The Corn Hole]

My feeling is that some providers size up clients and decide to what degree they are willing to risk BB with a particular client. If he is clean, is not drunk, and seems 'safe', then I think there is a greater willingness to go BB.

I disagree that providers are undiscriminating in whether they go BB or not. I believe they are EXTREMELY discriminating. The question is whether their criteria are sound or not. One provider who allowed me BB everything, did so only after I provided negative HIV and syphillis test results. I am not sure that criteria based only on what a man looks like, without talking about habits and past behaviors, are sound.

If you are talking specifically about providers in Brazil then I would tend to agree. But I also think they base their decision to BB on other factors too like physical attraction and how well they know the guy.

What I'm really trying to focus on here is SE Asia. This discussion began with an article on the Philippines in the safe sex section. As poor as sex education may be in Latin America it is almost non-existent in some Asian countries, particularly in the Philippines and Indonesia. There the vast majority of providers are very indiscriminate about who they have unprotected sex with, and I don't believe are aware or at least aren't really that concerned with the inherent risks involved. I really don't know where RN is getting all her information from but if it's based solely on the words of a few providers she's worked with then "Houston we have a problem." I understand what RN's motives are and actually think they're kind of noble. But I just think some of her conclusions she's come to based on all the data she's gathered are off base.

I also disagree with her on the dire need to empower sex workers around the world. I don't think they are as disempowered as she claims they are. This is a chosen profession for them and they are making more money for doing less work than most other females in their countries would be working regular day jobs. If they don't like what they're doing they can go find a job working for chump change just like everyone else would with their level of education. I just don't have them pegged as helpless victims being preyed upon by bloodthirsty wolves. Especially if they're dealing with foreigners. The people who really need empowerment are the ones working in sweatshops for next to nothing and only get one bathroom break per shift.

And finally, providers DEFINITELY lie to each other all the time, just as they lie to clients and for many of the same reasons. They lie about how much money a trick paid if it will be seen as too low or too high, they like about how much they have made or are making for the same reasons, they lie about what they will and won't do so that they won't seem like they are giving too much for too little or vice versa. Given the nature of the beast, I don't think it is reasonable to expect them NOT to lie, it is rarely in their own best interest not to!

And if they engage in any kind of BB shit with a client they are DEFINITELY going to lie about that with just about everybody except for maybe their doctor.

I agree with this entirely. I think mongers lie to each other as well on some of the same things.

[George90]

And finally, providers DEFINITELY lie to each other all the time, just as they lie to clients and for many of the same reasons. They lie about how much money a trick paid if it will be seen as too low or too high, they like about how much they have made or are making for the same reasons, they lie about what they will and won't do so that they won't seem like they are giving too much for too little or vice versa. Given the nature of the beast, I don't think it is reasonable to expect them NOT to lie, it is rarely in their own best interest not to!

And if they engage in any kind of BB shit with a client they are DEFINITELY going to lie about that with just about everybody except for maybe their doctor.

I agree that many providers are giving BB service. I once received BBBJCIM without requesting it. In fact, when I asked her to stop becuase I was about to come, she said it was OK to CIM, and I did. This one also requested BBFS, but I rejected that. Other providers have readily accomodated my requests for BBBJ, without CIM.

My feeling is that some providers size up clients and decide to what degree they are willing to risk BB with a particular client. If he is clean, is not drunk, and seems 'safe', then I think there is a greater willingness to go BB.

I disagree that providers are undiscriminating in whether they go BB or not. I believe they are EXTREMELY discriminating. The question is whether their criteria are sound or not. One provider who allowed me BB everything, did so only after I provided negative HIV and syphillis test results. I am not sure that criteria based only on what a man looks like, without talking about habits and past behaviors, are sound.

[Bango Cheito]

some thoughts on this subject....

i had a girl in rio give me a bbbj once and was surprised to see her dribble it out afterward. you'd think since the fucking federal government over there publishes a manual on sex work with a big section on safe sex practises that she'd have known to swallow. the bbbj was her idea not mine too. i don't mind cbj at all as long as the provider knows her stuff

in the dr, i can't personally confirm this obviously but i have heard tell of girls working with staff at the hotels to put holes in the condoms and then getting the 411 on their clients by sneaking a peek at their id. i'd imagine this would be a little more effective with a local

many people are carriers for herpes and never have had symptoms and possibly never will. you can never know who has it and who doesn't. also, people who have had it for a long time often don't have outbreaks anymore, or very rarely.

and finally, providers definitely lie to each other all the time, just as they lie to clients and for many of the same reasons. they lie about how much money a trick paid if it will be seen as too low or too high, they like about how much they have made or are making for the same reasons, they lie about what they will and won't do so that they won't seem like they are giving too much for too little or vice versa. given the nature of the beast, i don't think it is reasonable to expect them not to lie, it is rarely in their own best interest not to!

and if they engage in any kind of bb shit with a client they are definitely going to lie about that with just about everybody except for maybe their doctor.

[The Corn Hole]

but if there's a 'good side' to stigma it's that, as in any other marginalised and/or maligned community, it often leads us to form very strong bonds with our peers. that's why i can be pretty darn sure that when other sex workers are talking to me, they aren't spouting bullshit - particularly when i'm speaking to them as a peer educator/advocate, not as competition. why would they bother? would you feel compelled to hide anything from your mongering peers? i spend a whole lot of time with other hookers and there ain't no shutting us up once we get started. we'll talk about absolutely everything, because many of us need to.

if that's what you believe then fine. i'm sure they're willing to share more details with you than they would with me in certain areas. but i do think they wouldn't be entirely forthecoming on other matters for fear of judgement or worse. i don't know, nor am particularly inclined to find out. i don't believe their motives are always well hidden. in fact most of the time they are quite transparent in what they want. all i know is i've encountered many girls in the biz especially in asia and latin america who were not nearly as well informed about sexual health as you would like them to be. i just don't buy your theory that they are "experts" in the sex industry on disease prevention and what not. was it the organisation you're closely affiliated with who taught them that looking healthy and "clean" instantly translates into being healthy and clean? where many got that little pearl of wisdom from i wonder. you have your work cut out for you that's for sure.

stis are a concern for all of us in the sex industry, as is the ever-present and all-consuming stigma. the only real difference between us is our individual levels of empowerment. sex workers are disempowered by bad laws, stigma and marginalisation (the 'protect the people from the prostitutes' mentality that leads to those bad laws), policing practices and individual issues that affect agency, like the desperation of poverty. it's these things that need to be addressed. you can hand a sex worker a condom and teach her how to use it, but it doesn't mean a damn if she's not empowered to enforce it in the workplace.

i disagree that sti's are a concern for all in the sex industry. they are a concern for some. they are problematic for all. but how severe of a problem in which they pose for a wg can vary quite a bit. the most common ones can be easily cleared up with antibiotics and hardly "cause an interruption or end to their incomes." herpes doesn't cause a significant drop in their income either despite it not being cureable. even the most upscale brothels in the (developing) world (ie termas in rio, go-go bars in bangkok) don't screen for this and often times the girl who has it can keep on working there making the same amount of money she always did. on a side note, i just laugh at the guys that go to these high end establishments thinking they're fucking std free women. ok whatever. hiv would bar them from working at these places but that wouldn't signal an end to their career. they would just go looking for work elsewhere.

btw, you're probably aware that in se asia hiv is not nearly as commonly transmitted via sex as hep b is. i hope you're telling these girls to get vaccinated for this.

i've read your posts, cornhole. you seem to be respectful to sex workers, which i'm always glad to see, and have a responsible attitude to sexual health.

compared to who? :d

basically, what i meant to say was that you are from a different culture than those pi girls, so your assessment of their situation is likely coloured to a degree by preconceived notions of what they should be like. add to that the fact that sex workers often play all sorts of different games with clients (from harmless gfe acts for regular business, to outright manipulation) and you may be getting a very different picture than what's really going on in their heads.

it's really not that hard to figure out what they're thinking. basically she's thinking "maybe i can persuade this guy to fuck me in my pussy without a hat so i can have his baby and lay claim on him." i stand corrected these girls are thinking long term.

what i really took issue with, was that you were using this assessment to label sex workers as innately irresponsible/gullible/uneducated and therefore not capable of protecting themselves or their clients. that commonly held, but erroneous, belief is just one of many that further disempowers sex workers.

didn't make a sweeping generalisation about all of them like you did. just said a big number are that's all.

[Rubber Nursey]

no, i am definitely no expert on the inner-workings of these girls minds. the only way i could claim to be so is if i took everything they say at face value. i don't. i just assume at least half of everything that comes out of their mouths is total bullshit, and you should to. i judge them by their actions not their words. the p4p relationship is not like others but in some ways it's more honest and certainly more direct.

it's that honesty and directness that i love more than anything about the sex industry. there's none of that pathetic testing the boundaries and game playing (done by both sexes) of the dating scene, because you both know what you want and what you need to do in order to get it. once in the bedroom (or car or back alley!) there's no need for shame or fear, because you don't have to worry what the other person's lasting impression of you will be - you can just let go, experiment and enjoy. the sex part of p4p is raw and primal and honest and extremely liberating.

that said, that honesty often doesn't extend to the rest of the p4p relationship. traditionally, there is an inherent distrust between clients and sex workers - each of us suspects the other of stis, theft, violence, scams and ripoffs. neither of us trusts the other to tell the truth. some of that is based on previous bad experiences and some of it is based on stigma and stereotypes. but if there's a 'good side' to stigma it's that, as in any other marginalised and/or maligned community, it often leads us to form very strong bonds with our peers. that's why i can be pretty darn sure that when other sex workers are talking to me, they aren't spouting bullshit - particularly when i'm speaking to them as a peer educator/advocate, not as competition. why would they bother? would you feel compelled to hide anything from your mongering peers? i spend a whole lot of time with other hookers and there ain't no shutting us up once we get started. we'll talk about absolutely everything, because many of us need to. i respect and admire those girls who are 'out and proud' about being a worker, but a lot of us, for whatever reason, don't have that luxury. we're forced to keep half of who we are a secret from everyone we love and the freedom of being able to share stories and compare sex work experiences is vital to keeping our sanity. you guys are obviously none too different - this site is testament to that.

i'll lay all my cards on the table let's see if you'll do the same. what country do you live/work in?

that's no secret - my whole life story is on this site. i'm australian. since i live in the asia/pacific region, i've had a lot of contact with workers from asian countries, both as a hooker - there are many syndicates that 'run' girls from asian/indonesian countries to australian brothels - and in international advocacy and policy work. living in western australia, the indonesian cities are actually closer to me than the australian ones are ( i can fly to bali, for example, for half the cost of a flight to sydney). the australian sex worker network has strong ties with empower (thailand) and zi teng (china) and helped establish the sex worker group in png. since the introduction a couple of years ago of federal sex slavery laws, which only further marginalise 'foreign' sex workers coming into australia, migratory sex work has been one of our highest priorities and we've worked very closely with other sex workers in our region.

i'm not sure what specific cards you were wanting me to lay on the table - but there's not too many questions i won't answer. i had to choose years ago whether to come on this site as 'me' and watch i didn't say anything too personal, or keep my anonymity and be able to share explicit details of my experiences. considering the sort of personal sex worker specific questions i was being asked at the time, i figured the latter was more appropriate. so i'll answer anything that doesn't 'out' me. i write about my own hooking experiences and pass on stories i've been told by others. i comment on local and international sti/bbv policy and prostitution legislation because that's where my technical experience is. my sole aim in life is to improve conditions for individual sex workers. i can't do that properly without being able to see things from a client's point of view, which is largely why i'm still here. i've learned soooo much from you guys.

most sex workers around the world face the same challenges - limited access to health services, violence, police harassment, etc. stis are a concern for all of us in the sex industry, as is the ever-present and all-consuming stigma. the only real difference between us is our individual levels of empowerment. sex workers are disempowered by bad laws, stigma and marginalisation (the 'protect the people from the prostitutes' mentality that leads to those bad laws), policing practices and individual issues that affect agency, like the desperation of poverty. it's these things that need to be addressed. you can hand a sex worker a condom and teach her how to use it, but it doesn't mean a damn if she's not empowered to enforce it in the workplace.

i've read your posts, cornhole. you seem to be respectful to sex workers, which i'm always glad to see, and have a responsible attitude to sexual health. i wasn't criticising you at all, nor were my posts supposed to come across as a personal attack. i know i used the word 'naive', but you did too (as well as the word 'ignorant'!) and i tend to bite back a bit too quickly when someone treads on my tail. basically, what i meant to say was that you are from a different culture than those pi girls, so your assessment of their situation is likely coloured to a degree by preconceived notions of what they should be like. add to that the fact that sex workers often play all sorts of different games with clients (from harmless gfe acts for regular business, to outright manipulation) and you may be getting a very different picture than what's really going on in their heads. what i really took issue with, was that you were using this assessment to label sex workers as innately irresponsible/gullible/uneducated and therefore not capable of protecting themselves or their clients. that commonly held, but erroneous, belief is just one of many that further disempowers sex workers.

[The Corn Hole]

I was referring to WG's also. Rarely do I mess around with Non Pros when I travel overseas. I just don't see the point of doing that. Why entangle yourself with only one girl when you can choose to engage in serious promiscuity? I don't get why this concept is so hard for them to understand. I also find it's easier for me to break the heart of a WG as opposed to a normal one. At least I feel alot less guilt about it. Think it's a softer blow for a WG to lose their grip on a western guy than for a NP.

I got the Sagami condoms delivered to me from a company in Hong Kong. The website is sampsonstore.com. They carry the larger size for the non- asian as well. I think they're widely distributed throughout Asia , so if you visit that continent you can probably find them cheaper.

[Bango Cheito]

Corn Hole I was referring to WGs in Colombia and Brazil. I don't think too many people worldwide insist on using condoms with their bfs and gfs. :P

I'm gonna do a search for those Japanese condoms now. I don't need one with my gf but we do use em for threesomes and foursomes etc

[The Corn Hole]

This Sascha sees this issue very clearly, or at least clearer than most do in the media.

The irony of these anti-sexual exploitation campains by certain groups is they are often misdirected and place too much attention and resources on countries that actually have a much lower than perceived number of sex slaves. As someone who has spent alot of time in SE Asia I know that most of the articles written about young girls being sold into sex slavery are simply false. Most bargirls are far from slaves. Certainly compared to the ones working for Reebox or Nike. The bargirls are not obligated by management to go with anyone who pays their fine. In fact I've had a couple turn me down when I insisted LT and they only wanted ST, albeit this is far from the norm with them though.

Their attention should be redirected to the west if they really want to reduce extreme sexual exploitation. I have one word for them - SAIPAN. This is US territory and there have been many cases of girls from China and Philippines who arrive there to do work for their green cards only to be forced to prostitute themselves to pay off their debts. Further stories of forced abortions have been documented as well. This practice could've easily been abolished by the lawmakers on capital hill but the tiny, little evil man who was then Majority leader of the US house killed legislation that would've put an end to this abomination to human rights. I didn't see hoards of these groups marching on D.C. when this was going on. Before the US tries to sweep up other people's houses they had better get their own in order.

To Bango Cheito,

I can't speak of Columbian women being big on condoms but I can speak about Brazilian women. I can tell you it is not only possible to score without one with them but very easy provided you demonstrate a degree of loyalty to them and are somewhat young and healthy looking. I think it's not worth tagging them BB because they often get overly possesive and can turn into a real headache when you take the relationship to that level. Best to just stay covered and keep the relationship more casual in nature. It would be naive of you to think that 100% of the garotas you're banging use condoms 100% of the time with 100% of their clients.

I'll be in Rio in 5 weeks and am coming with an ample supply of these Sagami .002 condoms. Can't think of any better way to use them than on a plethora of round, brown bunda

[Rubber Nursey]

Socialism and the like have absolutely nothing to do with 'altruism', any more than capitalism has to do with 'selfishness'. It is all about power and control - in 'capitalism' a small owning elite has control of everyone else.

I agree with you, Opebo, but I'm not sure that anyone was actually saying that. I was saying that the urge to swap something you've got with something you want, was perfectly natural. I reckon we're inherently selfish and we humans like to get something in return for a 'good deed', and thus I believe payment for sex (in cash or otherwise) is only natural.

Well, I cannot attain any sexual gratification with a condom. In fact it would be far more gratifying to sit at home and masturbate than have plastic sex.

You scare me, baby, you really do.