American Women

[Chocha Monger]

Don't! You'll get nothing back on your investment or very little at best. The thought of paying a retainer to reserve your very own little parking space in her pussy pen might sound very appealing, exclusive and trendy even. However, once you get past the euphoria you'll see it makes about as much sense as renting a seaside villa year round on some exotic Caribbean island hideaway while you reside in some frigid corner of North America. Sure you might actually get to visit and use the villa once or twice a year. The rest of the time you're not there strangers are entering and squatting in the villa you're paying maintenance and service fees on. Now compare that to paying for a really nice suite in an upscale hotel where you only pay for the nights you occupy it and for the amenities you use during your stay. It is a much better deal than the former arrangement isn't it?

Sending Western Union remittances to women over long distance will not make them any more loyal or less inclined to fuck others during your absence. Doing so puts you at risk for being financially exploited. If you want to see the same ho again then show her a good time when you're there. It will increase the odds of seeing her again. Save yourself the pain of sending money until your next annual vacation only to have her disappear or come up with some emergency reason for not being able to meet with you. Every time you think of sending a ho money by Western Union imagine yourself alone in your hotel room with your hard dick in one hand and a phone with a busy tone in the other.

[Westy]

Cuero,

I haven't done Western Union, but I have paid a dentist in Asuncion to perform about $300 of dental work for a chica with a great smile and bloody-toothbrush problems. Full course of gingival treatment, some fillings, and a dental implant to replace a broken bicuspid that was in a position to spoil everything; pre-paid to the dental clinic, so she wouldn't be able to blow the money on something else. Romantic, eh? But when I returned in eight months, she was VERY proud to show me the "perfect tooth" where there had been a disfiguring gap.

Your WU bill is not so bad. You aren't trying to support her long-distance; it sounds as though she only asks you for help when she really needs it, rather than sitting around with her friends dreaming up "emergencies" to tap your wallet. It also sounds as though you're getting a delightful ROI. Being able to hang out and chat for hours and hours, plus a woman who loves to play tongue-tag as long and as well as you describe. She sounds like she's worth a lot more than the average run-of-the-bedroom P4P contractor.

I made up my mind about "no Western Union" when I started mongering, down in Paraguay. I'd heard enough stories from my fellow mongers that I decided I would be generous while I'm in town - "but once the plane climbs out, cara mia, you're on your own." Your situation, as you describe it, leaves me thinking that I might have missed out on some wonderful experiences by taking that hard-line stance.

Good luck, have fun, and be true to your own nature -
Westy

[Cuero99]

Westy,

I'll admit mine is a WU girl, but the donations have been irregular. 3 separate requests totaling around $400 over the past year since the first "urgent" request. At under $40 monthly that is not a lot for me but I admit the ROI is a bit questionable since unless I relocate to Lima I can only visit a few times a year. If the demands escalate at all I am ready to say no.

But I enjoy the feeling of being with a happy, sensual woman who kisses passionately like I'm a long lost lover, this goes for as much as 30 to 40 minutes before the main event to the point it is hard to pull away from her to fully undress ourselves for the main event and I'm not used to that! That kind of experience can be very hard or impossible to find in most P4P settings, although many of the Medellin Colombia prepago paisas really surprised me last year when I got a taste of them with similar kind of DFK and hot, urgent non-mechanical sex.

My Lima friend is also a great conversationalist and we can just hang out and chat for hours and I don't get bored which is rare.

[Westy]

A little more to add to my last post:

The "Ashley Madison" web-site is perhaps the best-known forum for sugar-babies ISO sugar-daddies. There are others, but it's a good example. What kind of girl subscribes? Some 'pretty young thing' who isn't adverse to having an older, well-to-do 'boyfriend' or 'patron' who will give her (typically) financial support, in exchange for her affections.

But, she rationalizes, she's not taking on just anybody. She wants "a man she can look up to," with some semblance of romance; and she's looking for longer-term support. It may not be as blatant as cash money; she may want someone to pay the rent for a nice apartment, in exchange for having a key to her door and "taking her out" a couple of times a week. She may frame it as "help" with her schooling tuition, or "gifts" of a nature that isn't necessarily cash money. She is looking to be "kept," and she sees herself as a "mistress" rather than an out-and-out ho.

Of course, a guy has to be pretty well-off (in the local economy) to play this game."Sugar-Daddy Bigbucks" had also be pretty-well settled on "Ashley," which I'll use instead of the classic "Little Annie Fanny," suits him enough for the long-term that he's willing to put her "on retainer" (as it's called when you hire a lawyer like this; I think it's also a 'polite' term for hiring a mistress).

This can be workable if you're living in the same city, where you do have plenty of opportunities to get together with "Ashley" for the evening or for an Afternoon Delight. If you live in a different city, it's more trouble and far less certain. If you live in the USA and she lives in the Third World, we call it "Western Union," with all that implies.

In some countries, you can get into a situation like this for a shorter term; where you meet up at a disco or pub,"hit it off," she comes back to the hotel with you, and both of you act like "you got lucky" in the "lust at first sight" mode. Next morning, you "give her a nice gift" and make plans to meet her that evening; you wine and dine her, same as you would a "regular girlfriend," your sex is more like "making love" than professional-style, and you may buy her pretty dresses and jewelry rather than just handing her a wad of currency. Of course, you still give her "cab fare home."

I actually like this pretty well. It salves my conscience, and hers; I like feeling like "a generous boyfriend" more than like "a trick"; it is more fun for me to "act romantic" ... my first lesson in Portuguese was learning the proper lyrics to "The Girl From Ipanema," so I could sing it to greet my new carioca girlfriend when she showed up at the piano bar of my hotel (the Granados Park, in Asuncion) when she came in the door to meet me and my buddies. And it doesn't leave any long-term hurt, as long as I remember where she's going to be the night after my flight home: back in the "meet market" where I met her, looking for the next sugar-daddy. Western Union? Fuggetaboutit.

[Westy]

I don't agree with this either / or statement, based on my current experiences as a no strings sex friend with a friendly, wildly passionate Peruana woman who likes both me and my money.

A single, attractive, relatively poor working (non hooker) latina woman in Peru or Colombia like my Lima favorite can enjoy the company and fucking a hotter young stud who has little money or offers her none because of his great personality, athletic body and great performance in bed. That doesn't mean she actually dislikes the company or dislikes fucking as well the other more aged foreign man in her life like myself who visits her on occasion and has a bit of dinero to share with her. It is very often the money factor that tips the balance, opens the legs and lubricates the pussy in the company of the moneyed man. In any fuckbuddy relationship she can have both.

Consider also that my sex friend would not fuck the older, somewhat less attractive guy (me) if he had no money to share, as she has limited time and having many choices and needs in her life. But, nor would she fuck me if I was very old, fat or ugly or a complete bore, even if I offered her 10x of the modest financial benefits that I provide to her. Given the many men who want to tap her pussy she will only choose those few that benefit her in some way, and in combination offer her the best total benefits for enjoyable companionship, personal sexual satisfaction, and familial financial security while allowing her to keep her personal sense of respect in herself intact.

Cuero, this does make good sense, and I've seen it before; not just in Latin America, either. The "sugar daddy / sugar baby" type of relationship has a long history in the USA and a longer history in Europe. Check out Aretino's Dialogues For an example in Renaissance Italian literature.

A girl who 'dates' (let's put a discreet, respectable label on this) an older, moneyed 'gentleman' (another discreet label) for dinner & drinks, plus some nice 'gift' that he gives her 'every so often' (thank you, Thomas Bowdler!) , is able to keep her self-respect because "she's not doing it just for the money, after all." Her 'benefactor' likely had to pursue her a little, go out with her more than once before she 'let him have his way, ' and I don't doubt that every encounter has to be 'another date, ' with drinks and dinner and probably even some dancing before going back home to 'the main event. ' The 'nice gift' in the morning is presented in a face-saving manner, possibly referred to as 'cab fare home'. At least that's the way I played it with my inamorata, down in Paraguay, a few years ago.

I know at least one member of this board (not myself) who has sought out similar enjoyments, traveling around the USA. I would do it again myself, if I were staying longer-term in a country where the economy would permit me to 'keep a mistress' in this fashion.

[Cuero99]

Examples of financially fair relationships to me.

Booty call- both parties offer each other sex. They may or may not be friends apart from the booty call element of the relationship. NO romance is permitted in a booty call. If there are costs like hotel room etc it is split evenly. If there is dinner it's split evenly or dutch. If for some reason they sleep cuddled up afterwards, they fight about who has to sleep in the wet spot :P.

Fuckbuddies- two friends who decide that they can fuck each other. There may be some affection shown but it is understood that it's not an LTR and will not interfere with other relationships in either party's life. Financial arrangements same as above.

One night stand- generally they get drunk and / or high and then go somewhere and fuck. This can be in a hotel or in a park / bathroom / alleyway whatever. One party may pay the hotel room if she or he so wishes without being considered a chump :P HOWEVER, guys who flood women with alcohol in the hopes of scoring with them have very low kill rates. If a girl at all likes you she doesn't need to get smashed to be with you :P.

BF / GF relationship- both parties pay their own basic living expenses and both should contribute to the cost of going out together. It's not a big deal who pays for what (nor should it necessarily be among non-romantic relationships with one's friends) as long as it doesn't approach 100% on either side of the equation. In Latin culture whoever invites pays. The words in Spanish are actually synonymous. So both parties if they really like each other do their share of "inviting". It's fine if one person has a lot more money than the other that he or she invites more frequently, but once again it shouldn't be near or at 100% either ever.

Living together- both parties contribute to the basic living expenses, preferably equally. In cases where one party makes significantly more than the other, the one who makes less should still be putting a good chunk of his or her money towards the basics, as in most of it. If the income differential is large, the one who makes more money should be contributing more towards the cost of going out together, if not, it should be more or less equal. No adult should be covering another adult's expenses for post-secondary education, gym membership, or plastic surgery.

Any woman not willing to adhere to those conditions is not with you because she really likes you, she's there for the $$$. That simple.

I don't agree with this either / or statement, based on my current experiences as a no strings sex friend with a friendly, wildly passionate Peruana woman who likes both me and my money.

A single, attractive, relatively poor working (non hooker) latina woman in Peru or Colombia like my Lima favorite can enjoy the company and fucking a hotter young stud who has little money or offers her none because of his great personality, athletic body and great performance in bed. That doesn't mean she actually dislikes the company or dislikes fucking as well the other more aged foreign man in her life like myself who visits her on occasion and has a bit of dinero to share with her. It is very often the money factor that tips the balance, opens the legs and lubricates the pussy in the company of the moneyed man. In any fuckbuddy relationship she can have both.

Consider also that my sex friend would not fuck the older, somewhat less attractive guy (me) if he had no money to share, as she has limited time and having many choices and needs in her life. But, nor would she fuck me if I was very old, fat or ugly or a complete bore, even if I offered her 10x of the modest financial benefits that I provide to her. Given the many men who want to tap her pussy she will only choose those few that benefit her in some way, and in combination offer her the best total benefits for enjoyable companionship, personal sexual satisfaction, and familial financial security while allowing her to keep her personal sense of respect in herself intact.

[Helpmann]

. Jackson, I hope you will be so kind as to leave this link intact.

The Manipulated Man

Good post!

-Helpmann

[Westy]

The other type of man, living only for himself, working only for himself, doing first one thing and then another simply because he enjoys it and because he has to keep only himself, sleeping where and when he wants, and facing woman when he meets her on equal terms and not as one of a million slaves, is rejected by Society. The free, unshackled man has no place in its midst."

When you brought this up, Gfechaser, it reminded me of another quote along the same lines:

I swear - by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

[Gfechaser]

I came across a link to this, from one of the Stickman website "reader submission" articles.

A very sharp, informative essay from years ago. Even more trenchant, in that it's written by a woman, Esther Vilar, an Argentinian by birth, who saw society in a very different light from the "politically correct".

From the introduction:

Jackson, I hope you will be so kind as to leave this link intact.

The Manipulated Man

I love the excerpt from The Manipulated Man

"If a young man gets married, and starts a family and spends the rest of hise life

Working at a soul-destroying job, he is held up as an example of virtue and

Responsibility. The other type of man, living only for himself, working only for himself,

Doing first one thing and then another simply because he enjoys it and because he

Has to keep only himself, sleeping where and when he wants, and facing woman

When he meets her on equal terms and not as one of a million slaves, is rejected by

Society The free, unshackled man has no place in its midst"

Sums me right up. Good stuff

[Westy]

I came across a link to this, from one of the Stickman website "reader submission" articles.

A very sharp, informative essay from years ago. Even more trenchant, in that it's written by a woman, Esther Vilar, an Argentinian by birth, who saw society in a very different light from the "politically correct".

From the introduction:

Over thirty-five years have passed since the first publication of my book The Manipulated Man - a pamphlet written in great anger against the women's movement's worldwide monopoly of opinion. The determination with which those women portrayed us as victims of men not only seemed humiliating but also unrealistic. If someone should want to change the destiny of our sex - a wish I had then as I have today - then that someone should attempt to do so with more honesty. And possibly also with a little humor.

People often ask me if I would write this book again. Well, I find it right and proper to have done so. But seen from today's perspective, my courage in those days may only be attributable to a lack of imagination. Despite all I wrote, I could not really imagine the power I was up against. It seemed that one is only allowed to criticize women on the quiet - especially as a woman - and could only expect agreement behind closed doors.

However, I had also underestimated men's fear of reevaluating their position. Yet the more sovereignty they are losing in their professional lives - the more automatic their work, the more controlled by computers they become, the more that increasing unemployment forces them to adopt obsequious behavior towards customers and superiors - then the more they have to be afraid of a recognition of their predicament.

I hadn't imagined broadly enough the isolation I would find myself in after writing this book. Nor had I envisaged the consequences which it would have for my subsequent writing and even for my private life - violent threats have not ceased to this date. A woman who defended the arch-enemy - who didn't equate domestic life with solitary confinement and who described the company of young children as a pleasure, not a burden - necessarily had to become a 'misogynist', even a 'reactionary' and 'fascist' in the eyes of the public.

In other words, if I had known then what I know today, I probably wouldn't have written this book. And that is precisely the reason why I am so glad to have written it. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the handful of people who have stood up for me and my work. Typically, most of them were women.

Jackson, I hope you will be so kind as to leave this link intact.

The Manipulated Man

[Gfechaser]

Hey Hairy Wonder, I agree with most of what you said and I also admire your un-political correctness. However, as a member of a minority group (hispanic) I have to say that if it's going that bad for the straight, white guy then what living chance in hell do we, straight, colored guys have in Sex Prison USA? I don't mean to start any quarrels here or anything like that, but I just thought that if anyone really had a better chance at things in this country, it was white guys (of all stripes and walks of life). It's you guys that I mostly see on tv, movies, music bands, etc. Usually, also, playing the role of the smart ones, the saviors, the superheroes, the bad asses, etc. But hey, you guys are the last line of defense we, all straight (regardless of skin color) guys have in this feminazi-dominate country. Funny thing is that throughout most of my travels in Latin America, I notice how much you white, (regardless of sexual orientation) guys are so looked-up upon. The treatment you guys receive over there is far better than anything I can imagine for myself, in spite of being originally from there as well. So go figure, how much of a chance can I have in what still remains of this great nation? Dunno, it's tough as nails. That's all I can say. Regardless of my (ongoing) higher education and how I carry myself out, all the stereotypes apply to me. It's like I'm guilty of everything before proven innocent. At least you white guys (usually) don't have that extra burden to worry about (and thankfully so!). But once I know you guys don't represent anything in your own country, then I will definitely know it's time for me to jump ship and head south of the border. Just my two-centavos worth, mi amigo!

I agree with Cyberdas. I think that allot of white guys just are not aware of how many privileges available to them. But I have noticed here in the Bay Area how allot of women turn there nose up at many white guys in many social circles. Leading me to wonder what chance if any do men of color have.

Nevertheless what I have noticed recently through reading Businessweek and Wallstreet Journal is that white men are screwing over other white men on a large scale. From the bank bailout, outsourcing of jobs, laying off of workers, lack of funding to education,...etc white guys are getting screwed over by guys that look just like themselves nowadays.

[Sanemind]

Many people hate Hugh Hefner. Me, on the other hand, neither envy nor hate. Sure he has probably had more beautifull women and pussy then your average could ever imagine.

Once you bang one hot cutie and have a totally awesome experiene each experience thereafter is just an attempt of a chase repeat. Why not. The bottom line with Hugh Hefner is that his new wife will gain more from marrying him and going down in history as yet another one Hughes many ladies. He knows in his heart she is not there for him but only what she can gain. Besides he is impotent. I am sure given all the spectacular science he can get erections.

In conclusion, Hugh is just another man with the same heartache as you and I have. Sure hes banged more pussy than most but so what. In the end we all stop breathing the same way Hugh will.

[D Cups]

There probably is not a man on the planet who wouldn't want to be Hugh Hefner. At least have his empire and his chicks. I hope to be bangin an ultra-hot broad when I'm 84, too.

Coincidentally, an article about an American legend in The Economist, January 13th:

Playboy: Bunny Hop

84 years old, and that luscious blonde is his new fiancee!

[Bango Cheito]

See this is what I'm talking about, why the fuck can't SHE get her own goddamn BMW? Suck dicks or kill people to get it if she has to, but not beg another adult human being's money for it.

[Finrod]

True to a point, but sometimes this board is overtly negative. Not every woman no matter her origin is out for permanent resident status ONLY. Some women want to stay AND find an American Husband because that's what she wants, nothing else too it.

In reality my ex cost me very little. You can say it was because she was a BBW if you want, but she paid the majority of the bills (she made more) and I paid the rest. She never ask for much and her parents never hinted she wanted "more" than she was getting so as far as I understand that subject never came up. The only more She wanted was a wedding ring and marriage.

How long does it take to compute this ratio? Bar girls in Tijuana cost $60 per incident, if she becomes a favorite (or however you say it in Spanish) it could cost you virtually nothing, but maybe an evening out dancing. With the exchange rate being what it is, what you say makes sense. But that being said, this girl is likely not going to remember your birthday (your GF / Wife will) or buy you stuff at Christmas, take you on trips, etc. Frankly I don't know where some of you guys meet the women you do and I'm not one to say you must to have been done dirty to feel the way you do, but either you hooked up with penny pinching women or broke women or women that just didn't give two shits about you while you missed all the obvious signs.

True, if that's all you want is sex, then P4P is best case scenario when accessible, legally. You don't use P4P for companionship some people do, a dog or cat is cheaper. That's if you want to be by yourself most of the time. I wasn't under the impression that most of us on this broad are loners, but maybe I'm reading it wrong. Maybe most of you would like to roam around the world, screwing different women along the way until your too old to do so and then hope you can find some nurse from a 3rd world country to take care of you in old age. I personally don't know ONE person with that fantasy. Most people I know want to get married and are frustrated by the dating scene in the United States.

Like I said I wanted to refrain from talking about LTR in this thread because its just not popular, it a place to vent about AW, even if the same vent has been repeated a dozen times before.

How do you know if a woman is interested in you only materially? Some things show up on date #1, other times you won't know until you go shopping for a house but that likely means you never talked about a home before you married her, so you don't know where she stands.

I still think even with the changing landscape of workplace that Western Women do NOT want to be the Bread Winners. That means YOU as the Man determine the lifestyle you lead and if she agrees too it, then you'll have no problems. I think what happen is many Men assume (not ask) what type of lifestyle they want to lead, they believe its not important. Well I do believe its important.

I've come to the conclusion we won't be driving Benz's and Bimmers or have a 4, 000 sq ft home, not because I can't afford it when the time comes but because I don't need it and rather invest money elsewhere. Now if the woman I'm with agrees to this, then we don't have complaints about not having a larger home or having expensive to maintain cars, opulent lifestyle, etc.

We work as a unit or it doesn't work. If you can't find a American to buy into this, GO ELSEWHERE.

To simplify, you should only have an LTR with a woman you can afford. If your thing is Chevy and hers is BMW, you can't afford her, period. Especially if Chevy is all you can afford in your own mind.

Maybe she talks a good game today, but you're still suspicious. If you think she may evolve to lifestyle choices that are beyond your willingness, let alone ability to pay for, better do your best to smoke that out.