American Women

[Bango Cheito]

I don't even really think 2 stable parents are enough to raise a kid or kids anymore. It's 2 poor oppressed souls against the whole rest of their often very competitive environment. I'm beginning to see the sense of the African proverb "it takes a village to raise a child."

[Gentleman Travel]

"It used to be called illegitimacy. Now it is the new normal. After steadily rising for five decades, the share of children born to unmarried women has crossed a threshold: more than half of births to American women under 30 occur outside marriage."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us...iage.html?_r=1

Interesting article, although maybe not as analytical as would be helpful.

My first question was whether they were focusing on simple non-marital status as opposed to single-parent situations (and they seem to be).

For the most part, common-law relationships have the potential to be as stable and useful and marriages, although where the dividing line is between that and just living together is not clear to me.

Also, they introduce an important caveat vis-a-vis the US.

"Almost all of the rise in nonmarital births has occurred among couples living together. While in some countries such relationships endure at rates that resemble marriages, in the United States they are more than twice as likely to dissolve than marriages."

But then they seem to contradict this."Like other women interviewed here, she described her children as largely unplanned, a byproduct of uncommitted relationships."

So maybe there are two parents at the outset, but no real commitment to the child or the relationship.

However, you do see a lot of women PLANNING to have children, regardless of whether there is a permanent partner or not. I know many women who have gone this route.

We see this especially in places like Eastern Europe, where there is a strong cultural norm that women must have kids to complete their lives, yet eligible men are rare and divorce rates have been high for a generation. I guess if they are prepared for the commitment and the sacrifices and have the support (in the west from their own income or government support and in the east from a family network) then they can overcome any disadvantages.

Anyway, the initial point of this thread was to give DJ4$ gratuitous marital and child-rearing advice. And DJ, I am with you. Keep looking for a relationship with a woman who wants to marry and have kid. On its good days, this is a great life. Just make sure she understands your expectations. That the sexual fun has to go on, regardless of the daily grind.

[Mr Enternational]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the only thing that is significant in the upbringing of a kid is the commitment of its parent (s) and the fact there are 1, 2 or 20 parents around of whatever gender or persuasion is absolutely irrelevant. Both my parents have been teachers all their life and have literally seen thousands of kids growing up in all kind of normal or strange surroundings. None of these matter for one bit and are not in the least predictive of "success". You'd be surprised how many absolute bastards are raised in church-going WASP pillar-of-society "normal" households.

How do you think I got to be as bad as I am? My mom always made me go to church 2 or 3 times / week. So I started hanging with a couple of other teenage guys from the church. Little did anyone know they were pimps on what was then Stewart Ave in Atlanta. And that is how I got my start. But I was able to escape that lifestyle when I graduated high school and moved out from my mom's and didn't have to go to church anymore. LOL.

[Wolvenvacht]

I don't think intentional single parenting is right, and I think it is more likely to produce a screwed-up kid. Kids need and deserve two committed parents, and by that I mean one male parent and one female parent and not two fags or two dykes.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the only thing that is significant in the upbringing of a kid is the commitment of its parent (s) and the fact there are 1, 2 or 20 parents around of whatever gender or persuasion is absolutely irrelevant. Both my parents have been teachers all their life and have literally seen thousands of kids growing up in all kind of normal or strange surroundings. None of these matter for one bit and are not in the least predictive of "success". You'd be surprised how many absolute bastards are raised in church-going WASP pillar-of-society "normal" households.

[Dickhead]

I never wanted kids and I am divorced. My ex-wife also did not want kids, until of course she did. Hence divorced. Having said that, I don't think intentional single parenting is right, and I think it is more likely to produce a screwed-up kid. Kids need and deserve two committed parents, and by that I mean one male parent and one female parent and not two fags or two dykes. Those two parents don't have to be legally married but they do need to be committed. Now, are two committed fags or two committed dykes better than one fucking crack addict? Probably. Two of my nieces have gone the single parent route, probably due to being grossly obese neurotic bitches. In one case the father is an ex-boyfriend who signed a lengthy agreement to just be a sperm donor with no financial responsibility. He keeps dropping in and out of the kid's life, while of course maintaining the whole no financial responsibility thing, which confuses the shit out of the kid. In the other case the father is? And the kid is 17 and has already gotten three different girls pregnant.

Allowing gay couples to adopt is suboptimal but probably necessary at this point because there are so many of these throwaway children that someone has to do it. The thing about being gay, while I have nothing against it, is that you just can't naturally procreate that way. All this in vitro fertilization and surrogate parenting is just fucking weird. Yes, it's unfortunate when you want kids and are infertile. This happens to a certain percentage of people. It's unfortunate that I want to dunk a basketball and can't. Deal with it.

Also, since in the US parents are legally responsible for any bastards their children create before turning 18, parents should be able to grind up birth control pills in their children's corn flakes.

[Wet Nose]

"It used to be called illegitimacy. Now it is the new normal. After steadily rising for five decades, the share of children born to unmarried women has crossed a threshold: more than half of births to American women under 30 occur outside marriage."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us...iage.html?_r=1

[TheStrongest]

The nightmares of the US legal system and the leverage AWs have in divorce court is more than enough to keep a few hobbyists in the game.

I personally can't imagine myself compromising my liberties by marrying / impregnating an AW. Maybe I'm just a bitter asshole, a misogynist, anachronistic jerk but I'll take my casual foreign lays to a domestic alimony payment any day.

[Voyajer1]

True, once in a while you will run into some really screwed up, drugged up, drunk as a skunk people in our hobby, but that's the exception, not the rule. On the other hand, in my travels I've been priviledged to have met some truly elite gentlemen who enjoy the hobby tremendously. We share a bond and know that our choices will never be accepted by our brethen in our countries or cities (Depending on where they are from) , so we know how to stay low key about the serious amounts of tail we engage in defiling in either P4P activities or freebies which happen from time to time. The amount of lifestyle conditioning people in our society go through (I'm speaking of good 'ol sex prison, the USA!) is seriously twisted: Give yourself to one woman, watch woman take all your sh*t even if she cheats on you; a real eye opener for those of us who have experienced marriage and the US court systems.

Ever since I started down this path, this hobbby has given me the greatest highlights, the highests highs I've ever experienced and there is no way in hell I plan on giving myself to an AW to take all my sh*t ever again. There is no way to convice me that there are better choices than this lifestyle. IMHO, I just don't buy it.

Mongering is for malajusted basterds? Maybe this generally true. If a man were to substitute P4P completely for normal relationships, were to build there social interactions around paying for action, surely this behavior would be unhealthy at best. But what's wrong with getting a little tail when I'm on vacation / away on business?

[TheStrongest]

Mongering is for malajusted basterds? Maybe this generally true. If a man were to substitute P4P completely for normal relationships, were to build there social interactions around paying for action, surely this behavior would be unhealthy at best. But what's wrong with getting a little tail when I'm on vacation / away on business?

[Bango Cheito]

That's not my theory. I don't hold mongering out as evidence of a "bad seed" or bad upbringing.

I meant things like dropping out of school, drugs, violent crime, dysfunctional relationships, failure to find a productive place in society.

Maybe some mongers fit that description, but most of us are just ordinary guys who want more sex and fun in their lives. That is as American as apple pie.

It is only the puritanical stream of America (which is currently pretty dominant, at least in public life) that treats this behaviour as unnatural or dangerous to society. Other societies (and time periods) are much more relaxed about this.

I agree that mainstream Americans would view our hobby as you describe, but we know better.

And not all mongers reject traditional relationships. Many just use mongering to supplement their everyday relationships. This does not make those relationships or people dysfunctional, in fact it is highly functional to create coping mechanisms to deal with problems / lacks in your life.

So I am guessing that mongers come from the same diverse backgrounds as any other segment of society. Actually, maybe a little more educated and elite and self-aware because we travel and immerse ourselves in other cultures and clinically examine the shortcomings in our own.

Beautiful post!

[Gentleman Travel]

That is quite an interesting hypothesis regarding bastards. Do you think most mongers are bastards from dysfunctional homes or legitimate children from loving married couples who never divorced? Keep in mind that society would generally consider mongers bad seed. As far as most people in America are concerned a bunch of guys who reject traditional relationships and instead fly around the developing world fucking poor girls must be a really bad bunch. I've heard people say such a lifestyle is selfish and degenerate. On many non-monger travel and expat forums mongers are met with blatant hostility. Some people even went so far as to join this forum to make threats against mongers. Do you think that American parents would consider their sons normal well adjusted individuals if they were to find out that they spend their time and money flying around the globe fucking hoes in poverty stricken countries?

If your hypothesis is true then very few mongers should come from happy loving two parent households. After all, if marriage created such a positive environment wouldn't men seek to emulate their fathers rather than avoiding commitments?

That's not my theory. I don't hold mongering out as evidence of a "bad seed" or bad upbringing.

I meant things like dropping out of school, drugs, violent crime, dysfunctional relationships, failure to find a productive place in society.

Maybe some mongers fit that description, but most of us are just ordinary guys who want more sex and fun in their lives. That is as American as apple pie.

It is only the puritanical stream of America (which is currently pretty dominant, at least in public life) that treats this behaviour as unnatural or dangerous to society. Other societies (and time periods) are much more relaxed about this.

I agree that mainstream Americans would view our hobby as you describe, but we know better.

And not all mongers reject traditional relationships. Many just use mongering to supplement their everyday relationships. This does not make those relationships or people dysfunctional, in fact it is highly functional to create coping mechanisms to deal with problems / lacks in your life.

So I am guessing that mongers come from the same diverse backgrounds as any other segment of society. Actually, maybe a little more educated and elite and self-aware because we travel and immerse ourselves in other cultures and clinically examine the shortcomings in our own.

[Gentleman Travel]

Statistics can be bent to say anything. There are several outliers, then there is all of the general population inside of the bell curve. I don't think that a kid will turn out badly just because one parent is not or seldom is in his life. What about the cases when a parent has died while the kid was young? Just because there are two parents in a house does not mean it is stable or supportive. It could very well be a hell hole.

The whole thing boils down to responsibility. If you don't plan on being a responsible parent then you have no business having fucking kids. But in the end you must remember that the child is an individual and has a mind of it's own. You can give it the best raising possible but it will eventually and always go the way that it wants when all is said and done.

True there are always outliers and exceptions and lots of cases that prove opposite things.

Some kids can grow up great in the most adverse conditions.

And lots of loved and nurtured kids end up bad or useless.

And sure lots of kids survive divorces pretty well. In fact that is a big chunk of the population.

I am talking about playing the odds and not starting a kid's life with the odds stacked against him / her.

[D Cups]

Hi CM, no more flaming, ok? The bastard theory does not hold water. No sociological study suggesting this unlike say, recidivism. I'm case-in-point. My folks were happily married 56 years. My brother has been happily married over 30 years. I've never been married. Always been a monger. After my first girlfriend, a Japanese-American, dumped me for another stud. As the saying goes, why buy the cow when you can milk for free? (or at least cheaper). Peace.

If your hypothesis is true then very few mongers should come from happy loving two parent households. After all, if marriage created such a positive environment wouldn't men seek to emulate their fathers rather than avoiding commitments?

[Chocha Monger]

Sure you can have a kid without getting married, but that vastly increases the difficulties of raising a child and the odds of him / her turning out badly.

All the statistics and studies show that children brought up in stable, supportive households are happier, better adjusted, do better in school and life and are more likely to have stable relationships of their own.

Single parents have a much tougher time raising kids properly and it shows in drop-out rates, delinquency, etc.

Of course it depends on many other factors as well. Income, education, involvement of both parents, etc.

And a kid of a middle class, mid-life marriage breakdown is not in the same boat as a kid whose father was absent from the start.

Anyone who thinks they should have a kid, without the prospect of a stable, nurturing family, just to propagate his seed, is liable to end up with a bad seed.

That is quite an interesting hypothesis regarding bastards. Do you think most mongers are bastards from dysfunctional homes or legitimate children from loving married couples who never divorced? Keep in mind that society would generally consider mongers bad seed. As far as most people in America are concerned a bunch of guys who reject traditional relationships and instead fly around the developing world fucking poor girls must be a really bad bunch. I've heard people say such a lifestyle is selfish and degenerate. On many non-monger travel and expat forums mongers are met with blatant hostility. Some people even went so far as to join this forum to make threats against mongers. Do you think that American parents would consider their sons normal well adjusted individuals if they were to find out that they spend their time and money flying around the globe fucking hoes in poverty stricken countries?

If your hypothesis is true then very few mongers should come from happy loving two parent households. After all, if marriage created such a positive environment wouldn't men seek to emulate their fathers rather than avoiding commitments?

[Mr Enternational]

Sure you can have a kid without getting married, but that vastly increases the difficulties of raising a child and the odds of him / her turning out badly.

All the statistics and studies show that children brought up in stable, supportive households are happier, better adjusted, do better in school and life and are more likely to have stable relationships of their own.

Single parents have a much tougher time raising kids properly and it shows in drop-out rates, delinquency, etc.

Of course it depends on many other factors as well. Income, education, involvement of both parents, etc.

And a kid of a middle class, mid-life marriage breakdown is not in the same boat as a kid whose father was absent from the start.

Anyone who thinks they should have a kid, without the prospect of a stable, nurturing family, just to propagate his seed, is liable to end up with a bad seed.

When I made the statement about not having to be married to have a kid, I was doing it under the assumption that the male (such as DJ FM) who wanted to have the kid would be in the kid's life and not just pork the mom in order to see what comes out. Several of my female friends who are educated and well off but are getting older and have yet to find a suitable partner have asked me to help them have children with no strings attached. (I don't think the court looks upon that with the same eyes though.) But there is no way that I'm trying to make a child and not be in their life.

Statistics can be bent to say anything. There are several outliers, then there is all of the general population inside of the bell curve. I don't think that a kid will turn out badly just because one parent is not or seldom is in his life. What about the cases when a parent has died while the kid was young? Just because there are two parents in a house does not mean it is stable or supportive. It could very well be a hell hole.

In my situation my parents divorced when I was 12 and my brother was 2. My dad still came to see us everyday and my mom had no problem with that. We are his kids and from her standpoint he should be able to spend time with us whenever he wanted. The thing is that most women are not like my mom and most men are not like my dad. Some guys can't be begged enough to go spend time with their kids and some women refuse to let their kid's father spend time with them. A lot of AWs want to shelter their kids from the father because of some ill will or resentment that they harbor against him. My parents' kids turned out alright though. I have an MBA in International Business and I'm doing well in life and my brother has a BS in Criminal Justice and Sociology and is a police officer and owns his own security business in which he has many contracts. Hell, my dad even works for my brother now. My brother is another good example. He got custody of his son when he was only a couple months old because his mother was not being a responsible parent. Now my nephew is 10 and has always had all As in school.

The whole thing boils down to responsibility. If you don't plan on being a responsible parent then you have no business having fucking kids. But in the end you must remember that the child is an individual and has a mind of it's own. You can give it the best raising possible but it will eventually and always go the way that it wants when all is said and done.